And Now For Somethign Completely Different

As someone who has been wholly unreceptive of the spin from the Clinton camp the past two weeks, going so far as to refer to it to a friend as the “never-ending stream of bullshit from the sisterhood of the traveling pantsuits,” allow me to take a second to provide some vantage points from the pro-Clinton angle. First, from Time’s Mark Halperin and Jay Carney:

Then there’s her old standby case based on experience. Clinton believes Obama’s support is largely a mirage–a bunch of true believers whose passion might help him cinch the nomination, but that may prove an insufficient bedrock for winning a general election when the spell might be broken by tough questions about national-security credentials, economic-policy plans and rich experience. She can’t stop from shaking her head in disbelief when longtime friends who are elected officials inform her that they are going to endorse Obama and were chiefly convinced by their children’s enthusiasm for his candidacy.

Next, MSNBC’s Chuck Todd:

The party ought to lay off the calls for Clinton to drop out, at least for now, because her presence at worst is making Obama a better candidate. The Wright flare-up was the first true political crisis of Obama’s national political career, which is remarkable given how close he is to being the Democratic nominee. Who knows when the Wright controversy would have circulated had the nomination been locked up.

Obama needed to prove he could handle a real media firestorm, something Clinton has done numerous times throughout her career. In fact, her political survival skills have been marketed as an asset by the campaign, something I think would have sold better in ’04 when the party was looking for a tough survivor to put up against Bush.

I am not posting these because I necessarily believe them, but because far too often in the past I have leaped to conclusions and assumed ill will when mere folly was a better explanation (and this is something I really need to work on, but the past few years has made me increasingly cynical). So, in fairness, perhaps Hillary really does believe Obama is fatally flawed and that if she does not keep fighting, the Democrats will blow it. Again, I don’t buy that, but I thought I should put it out there. Plus, I find it interesting that Todd believes this is making Obama stronger.






139 replies
  1. 1
    Doctor Jay says:

    I’m with Chuck Todd. I think the continued campaign is a net plus for the fall, not a minus. Obama is sparring with a veteran fighter, the training can only help.

    Furthermore, the continued campaign drives coverage and voter registration in states voters can’t remember the last time they were relevant in choosing a nominee. That’s got to be good for the Democrats.

  2. 2
    Ninerdave says:

    I think it’s easier to fight stuff like the Wright flap when it comes from the opposite party though. When your own party is flinging shit at you, I think it cuts deeper.

    Having said that, maybe that’s an argument for Todd’s point.

  3. 3
    Don Imus says:

    Obama’s tactic is to find anything wrong in the world then blame anybody breathing for the trouble.

    Anytime Obama gets caught doing something wrong the race card saves him. WRIGHT, REZKO, NAFTA-GATE.

  4. 4
    Nikki says:

    I would buy that if not for the complete ugliness of her campaign and the embracing of the VRWC. That smacks of something else.

  5. 5
    Jay B. says:

    John,

    I really don’t think it can hurt. Or, rather, I don’t think anything Clinton does or says can hurt Obama anymore than what the GOP will throw at him. Literally nothing Clinton has done has even approached the shrieking of what we’ve already seen coming from the right (Moooslim! Barry X!). She’s obliquely nodded toward those things, and brought up other bullshit issues, but believe me it’s only a taste of what’s to come if he gets the nomination.

    Clinton hasn’t made him a better candidate, necessarily, but it’s made his a better campaign. They HAVE to know where their weaknesses are now because it’ll be too late come October. They have to know how to counterattack. Hit the opponent.

    Obama has been a good candidate, but I like even better how his campaign has responded to the attacks and the nomination process overall, THAT’S what got me on his side.

  6. 6
    Mike P. says:

    Chuck Todd makes the point: now that Obama’s survival skills vis a vis the Wright flare-up were on a whole ‘nother level compared to the survival skills displayed by Clinton in Tuzla-gate, the Senator from Illinois has proved Clinton can safely exit the race, having saved the Dem Party from itself.

    Thanks Hill. Don’t let the door hit ya…

  7. 7
    cleek says:

    Mark Halperin is a GOP shill. so, umm, who cares what he thinks?

    Todd:

    Obama needed to prove he could handle a real media firestorm

    yes, and now he’s done that. it’s time to end this thing.

    also, Don Imus is an idiot

  8. 8

    Obama needed to prove he could handle a real media firestorm, something Clinton has done numerous times throughout her career.

    Great. Fine.

    Now that that’s over, someone needs to have a sit-down with Herself.
    .

  9. 9
    Wilfred says:

    sisterhood of the traveling pantsuits

    Good one, that.

  10. 10
    MBunge says:

    The problem is that the real myth-making of this campaign exists almost entirely on Hillary’s side. What “national security credentials” or “rich experience” does Hillary actually have? And for Chuck Todd’s sake, what “political survival skills” does Hillary actually possess? Other than not publicly asking for a divorce after Monica, how many times did Hillary play a public and positive role in dealing with a political crisis during Bill’s Administration? What great and terrible political challenges has she had to fend off as Senator from New York?

    When will people wake the hell up and recognize that this campaign has been the only real test of “Hillary’s” political skills and they’ve hardly been proven that effective?

    Hillary’s argument is “I might not be able to beat Obama among Democratic voters, who are all apparently stupid or something, but I’ll be a much stronger candidate with the general public…EVEN THOUGH A HUGE PORTION OF THAT GENERAL PUBLIC HATES MY EFFIN’ GUTS WITH THE WHITE HOT INTENSITY OF A THOUSAND SUNS”? Sheesh.

    Mike

  11. 11
    Pb says:

    perhaps Hillary really does believe Obama is fatally flawed and that if she does not keep fighting, the Democrats will blow it

    Were Obama actually fatally flawed, I don’t see how he could have gotten this far. But at this point, I think Hillary is fatally flawed, and her continued campaign is now contrasting her weaknesses to his strengths. Which Chuck Todd apparently thinks is a good thing, but I’m not convinced that it outweighs the polarization that has driven both of their numbers down against McCain.

  12. 12
    Ron M says:

    I just cant get passed the old “Hillary has been tested throughout her political career” line. She’s only been elected twice under more than favorable circumstances and she’s perceived as a skilled politician who wins tough elections.

    When is someone gonna bring up the point that this is her first real challenge for an ELECTED office and that she really hasn’t proved she can take on whats thrown at her any more-so than Obama?

  13. 13
    Chubbs says:

    The key to me is that when Clinton drops out, will she campaign and give real support to Obama’s campaign. Without her being gracious and supportive of his campaign, I think all the worry about this hurting the Democrats could be true. But, if she comes out and actively supports him and campaigns for him, I think the Dems will unite and win.

  14. 14
    mikesdak says:

    I’m not sure who could talk to her about quitting; maybe a large enough group of superdelegates. The only single person who might possibly have the clout is Bill, and he doesn’t show any signs of doing it.

  15. 15
    NR says:

    I have a lot of trouble buying Hillary’s motives as pure given how often she and Bill have been praising John McCain.

    Seriously, if all she’s trying to do is win the primary, why all the praise for the Republican in the race?

  16. 16
    Zifnab says:

    So, in fairness, perhaps Hillary really does believe Obama is fatally flawed and that if she does not keep fighting, the Democrats will blow it. Again, I don’t buy that, but I thought I should put it out there. Plus, I find it interesting that Todd believes this is making Obama stronger.

    I don’t think it has to be one or the other. Clinton can be a conniving, cheating, SOB and still cling to the notion that it took her husband to clean up after Senior and it’ll be her job to clean up after Junior. This is, after all, American Politics. Kennedy didn’t walk into the White House without a few friends in low places. Reagen didn’t win the White House without bumping elbos with a few angry Iranians. McCain would never have made it this far if he hadn’t sold out on every last principle that made him this popular to begin with. Why should Clinton think she suddenly has to play like a saint?

    And I do think this is building Obama’s credentials. You guys have been waxing on about how Clinton is using the McCain/Rove playbook. Is that a bad thing? Shouldn’t Obama warm up on a few lobs before he starts seeing the real fastballs?

    And besides, its always a laugh riot to see GOP party loyalists nodding sagely at anything Clinton says. That Limbaugh was actively boosting Hillary – not once, but TWICE – after his Romney hissyfit and after Obama took the lead, is the absolute most entertaining spectacle I could ever hope to see. This primary season is turning everything about the GOP on its ear. They won’t have a single thing to say that they haven’t categorically condemned five times over by the end of this election cycle.

  17. 17
    Brachiator says:

    Then there’s her old standby case based on experience. Clinton believes Obama’s support is largely a mirage—a bunch of true believers whose passion might help him cinch the nomination, but that may prove an insufficient bedrock for winning a general election when the spell might be broken by tough questions about national-security credentials, economic-policy plans and rich experience.

    What a bunch of hoo-ha. Let’s break this down as to how it is meaningless, self-serving Clinton rhetoric.

    Simply put, these “standards” have no meaning, and even if they did, Senator Clinton would fail them. Instead, she and her team try to create a chimera to lead people to nod their head and look at Senator Clinton as though she has met these mythical standards.

    Senator Clinton has no national security credentials, unless you count being suspected of being complicit in the theft of FBI files and other national documents as “national security credentials.”

    “Economic policy plans” is another empty buzz word. Since Senator Clinton chose never to run for political office before she ran for the NY Senate, she never had any responsibility for overseeing the drafting economic policy, securing the approval of economic policy positions, or implementing economic policy proposals.

    To the contrary, one could argue that even as a state legislator, Obama had more real world experience in the actual task of securing the passage of legislation.

    Lastly, while one can reasonably describe chocolate or coffee as rich, it has no substantial meaning when applied to experience. Unless by this you mean that Senator Clinton is old, and then McCain wins that contest hands down.

    Also, this aphorism comes to mind: experience is the fool’s teacher. Wise men and women don’t need it.

    Senator Clinton’s people are trying to seize the high ground with nothing more than the claim that Senator Clinton has become presidential by osmosis, simply by hanging around Bill Clinton while he was doing governor and presidential stuff.

    This is an absurd claim that should be resisted for all kinds of reasons, not the least of which because Senator Clinton, claiming some kind of mystical spousal privilege, is attempting to insert herself in the line of presidential succession in violation of everything that is set forth in the Constitution.

    By elevating the totally unofficial and ceremonial office of First Lady into that of First Soulmate, Prime Counselor and Apprentice-in-Chief, she is implying that she has gained more pre-presidential experience than a vice-president or cabinet appointee. More than a National Security Advisor. More than the Chairman of the Joint Chief of Staffs.

    This is a terrible precedent, but one which we were softened up for by Dubya’s idiotic claims that he had learned some of that president stuff by watchin’ his daddy.

    Reporters have never asked the tough question of Senator Clinton, which is not “what did you learn during those gubernatorial and White House years?” but rather “what did you actually DO?”

    Otherwise, every presidential spouse with a brain becomes their party’s presumptive nominee.

    And I missed that part in the Constitution that talks about hereditary nepotism being a qualification for becoming president of the United States.

    In short, here it is not about Clinton versus Obama, it is that every particle of Clinton’s claim to presidential status on the basis of credentials, plans and experience is complete, total and utter bullshit.

    Oh yeah. She doesn’t know jack about the Constitution either and expects her supporters to equally bask in ignorance. She blathers about commander-in-chief “thresholds,” but the Constitution clearly reads:

    Section 2. The President shall be commander in chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the militia of the several states, when called into the actual service of the United States….

    In other words, the power comes with the job, by freakin’ definition.

    It says a lot about Clinton and her people that they are still trying to measure Obama by stuff that is totally bogus. They rank up there with the 10% in the recent Pew survey who believe that Obama is Muslim (and so just not the right thing for a president).

  18. 18
    jake says:

    I look at it this way: If a GOPer started saying this or that Democratic candidate should give it up people would line up to tell him to get fucked. This is democracy. Enjoy the show.

    And Now For Somethign Completely Different

    Heh. Indeed.

  19. 19
    PeterJ says:

    In the primary elections, Clinton is only 16 votes behind Obama.

    There’s no caucuses in the general election to pad Obama’s numbers so obviously this means that he’s utterly flawed as a candidate.

    /SNARK

  20. 20
    JL says:

    Obama in Illinois worked to pass health care for children, and to do away with the death penalty. Besides saying she has been an advocate for Children’s Health Care what did she do. SCHIPS was already a done deal. Hillary speaks about being an advocate for gay rights but what has she done. I think that Obama showed great courage when he spoke about gay rights in Atlanta last January and said “If we are honest with ourselves, we’ll acknowledge that our own community has not always been true to King’s vision of a beloved community,” Obama told 2,000 worshippers Sunday at Atlanta’s Ebenezer Baptist Church, where King once preached. “We have scorned our gay brothers and sisters instead of embracing them.” The puff piece is not Obama but Hillary.

  21. 21
    w vincentz says:

    Besides the fact that Hillary brought up Rev Wright a week after the story broke (and she didn’t wish to comment at that time), and then used it to distract from her Tuzla Wopper-gate, I’ll state my opinion. I agree with Sen Patrick Leahy of VT. Time for Hil-liar to leave the prez race.
    Here’s a good opinion on the “swiftboating” of Obama:
    http://www.commondreams.org/ar.....3/28/7942/

  22. 22
    Martin says:

    I’m not sure who could talk to her about quitting

    This was raised at Kos at one point. Vernon Jordan was put forward as the answer. I think that’s a good call.

    As to the tenor, I was reminded last night of how TR Jr. and FDR went at each other in politics – and they were related. So, I’ll back off of wanting Hillary to step out provided that the loser of this contest throw all their weight behind the winner.

  23. 23
    Ted says:

    The fact that the GOP leadership is still trying to figure out how to take on Obama is an excellent sign. They’ve probably had war plans drawn up for years for Hillary. With Obama they are still sending out messages to the party of what is and is not within bounds, and with the Wright thing, accidentally stomping on their own lines of attack (Mooslim).

  24. 24
    JL says:

    I don’t want Hillary to quit but I do want her to stop campaigning for McCain. By the way did I mention how much I hate WalMart and the fact that she was on the Board certainly bothers me.

  25. 25
    zack says:

    Well, at this point, even as an Obama supporter, I don’t disagree with Todd. That puts me at odds with the hard-core Hillary supporters over at Talk Left that insist my view is not possible.

    No you won’t see that post featured at daily kos or Talking Points Memo. Chuck Todd became a little less astute to them today

    However, unlike the TalkLeft acolytes, who will turn on him the second he says a discouraging word about Hillary, I am able to see the big qualifier in Todd’s statement.

    …at least for now..

    He didn’t say Hillary shouldn’t drop out until August 28th when the last super-delegate has had a horse’s head dropped on his bed for leaning toward Obama.

    There is, in a rational world, a big difference between those two points of view.

  26. 26
    Dennis - SGMM says:

    Clinton is claiming eight years of rich, nougaty experience to the detriment of Al Gore and everyone else who served in the Clinton administrations. I guess that all of those good men and women just stood around with their hands in their pockets while Super Hillary and Blowjob Bill forged both foreign and domestic policy.

  27. 27
    JL says:

    Another puff piece on Hillary is her vote to prosecution of those who burn the flag. I want a President who has the nation behind him and maybe citizens aren’t so frustrated they want to burn the flag. Please make her go away.

  28. 28
    Pb says:

    In the primary elections

    Despite the Big Dawg’s desire to disenfranchise IA, NV, AK, CO, KS, MN, ND, NE, WA, ME, HI, WY, and the TX caucuses, they all still count. D’oh!

    However, I do wonder how much Obama would have won by, had the Clinton campaign come out against the fairness of the entire caucus process before Iowa. Yeah, I bet that would have been a winner. Of course, I’m sure they’re still losing caucus votes over these sorts of bone-headed comments, so go figure. Heh.

  29. 29
    Cromagnon says:

    Plus, I find it interesting that Todd believes this is making Obama stronger

    The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed in war

  30. 30
    Dennis - SGMM says:

    Despite the Big Dawg’s desire to disenfranchise IA, NV, AK, CO, KS, MN, ND, NE, WA, ME, HI, WY, and the TX caucuses, they all still count. D’oh!

    Now, now, let’s tone down the rhetoric here. All the Clintons are saying is that the votes of those who voted for Obama shouldn’t count for fuck-all and that the votes of those who voted for Hillary should fill the resulting void.

  31. 31
    JL says:

    Cromagnon, “The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed in war” I don’t know how to do the blue high light stuff but I have to say that I have seen Obama step back but I haven’t seen him sweat. He just comes back stronger. Interesting!

  32. 32
    Pug says:

    I support Obama but I don’t think Hillary has any obligation to drop out of the race now. It’s still reasonably close and there’s no reason not to let Pennsylvania, North Carolina and the rest vote.

    She does have an obligation to quit running a despicable campaign. It’s hurting her, too. Her numbers are starting to fall off the table and it is the constant negative attacks, head-spinning spin and never ending praise for John McCain that is causing it. Ironically, I think it is hurting her with her beloved super delegates the most.

    Oh yeah, and Bill too.

  33. 33
    Martin says:

    Another perspective to keep in mind is that the DNC offered up extra delegates to states to have their primaries late in the cycle. The DNC apparently wants to see the primaries play a role – even the late ones, so I’m guessing most supers won’t call for her to step out until June since that undermines the encouragement they gave to states to not rush forward. The caveat on that, of course, is that the candidates can’t do harm to the party in the meantime.

    Someone needs to remind Terry that he levied the same penalty against MI in 2003 that Dean is and was on the record as saying he’d strip their delegates if they broke the calendar. Clinton really doesn’t have a moral leg to stand on in this.

    And Bill is downplaying the caucuses because they keep losing delegates in them. Texas convention is tomorrow and it sounds like they will lose some more there.

  34. 34
    A. Hidell says:

    I don’t usually get the time to post here. My schedule is too wacky and work is too strict on teh tubes. That is why this is gonna be long. You don’t like long posts you skip ahead. Anyways, here goes.

    I have always hated the Super Delegates. They always seemed to me a reaction against ’72 when the DFHs took over the party for a campaign. The Democratic Party decided it was against all the damn liberals in the party. It needed the party bosses (the people currently in power) to act as a brake on the party’s left wing. “No more McGoverns!!!!” That is one major reason why Hillary has been able to stay on so long. The system is set up to stop a candidate like the MUP in his tracks. That’s why I really don’t begrudge her of not planning for after Super Tuesday. He wasn’t supposed to survive it. And any other campaign wouldn’t. His campaign has been run better than any other campaign I can remember. He had 3 workers organizing Kansas in October! The MUP is for real.

    But his campaign is fighting an entrenched establishment. In creating the Super Delegates, the Democratic Party decided that the party bosses would reserve the right to decide the nominee. No closely fought primary season could be won without them. That is why I hate the Supers and everything they stand for.

    Clinton knows all of this. She also knows that the Supers are gonna have to move en masse to Obama sooner or later. After all, by every available metric Obama is ahead. That is why her campaign has been busy working overtime on spinning the vote totals in stupid ways. She has been trying to delay that date for as long as possible, hoping that his campaign implodes. That is why she has had to employ the “kitchen sink” or “Tonya Harding” tactics that she has. Her campaign was obviously hoping that the Wright controversy would be the catalyst for the implosion that she was hoping for. But the MUP shoots rainbows out of his ass, and his campaign was able to ride through the worst of it.

    There is also evidence that the Tonya Harding option is having the opposite effect. It, combined with the Bosnia/Sinbad gaffe, may actually be causing her campaign to implode. Her favorable ratings have taken a plummet. I am really looking at the PA numbers now. If her campaign is imploding, and I think it is, there should be movement in the numbers in that state that will point to the MUP gaining. That is the test for me. If I am wrong, then she wins PA by 10% or more. If she wins but it is close or if she loses PA then we will see the Supers move en masse to Obama. It will be over, and she will get the horse head on her pillow.

    This, I think makes me most hopeful for the general election. If my thinking is correct, and there is a lot open to interpretation, then the MUP will have answered the one big electability question that has been a constant throughout the primary cycle.

    Everybody knows the VRWC is alive and well. The 527s are about the only thing that are funded well on the Republican side. Those 527s will Swiftboat the Democratic candidate from day one of the general election campaign. One of the major selling points for Clinton throughout the process is that she has already been “vetted.” In other words, she came to the process pre-slimed. Either we had heard all of the slime on the Clintons that there was, or that she was used to the process and was equipped to fight it.

    I have lost sight of the number of comments I heard that Obama should just toughen up. That anything Clinton could throw at him was just a taste of what the VRWC would do. This argument was supposed to make the “kitchen sink” a valid tactic. I am not impressed by this argument. It merely makes me think that Clinton has stared into the abyss and become abysmal in the process. (Can anyone say Scaife?)

    But my personal disgust with these tactics is not really important. The personal disgust of millions of registered Democrats is however. And the fact that she is breaking her campaign in this way is actually the best news for Obama partisans. A similar fate may face McCain in the general. The 527s are gonna smear away, the MUP will shoot more rainbows from his ass, and McCain will be between a rock and a hard place. He’ll either have to denounce and reject the 527s or he will have to remain silent on them and eat the backlash they will generate. Because as Obama is currently in the process of showing, Obama is rubber and his opponent is glue.

    This doesn’t say anything about why anybody would actually want to be president knowing how bad the economy, Iraq, oil, etc, etc…is going to be.

  35. 35
    Dennis - SGMM says:

    I don’t know how to do the blue high light stuff…

    Just above the top left hand corner of the Leave a Reply box is a square with >> on it. Click on the square to expand your options.
    To create the Blue highlight stuff, paste the text you wish to highlight into Leave a Reply. Now select it all then click the B-Quote (Block Quote) button. The block quote won’t show up in Preview until you start typing the rest of your post.

    Try it. You won’t break anything. If you’re worried about making a fool of yourself just remember that you’re posting on Balloon Juice: it’s where I post to make a fool of myself.

  36. 36
    w vincentz says:

    Hillary is all about gaining a third term for her husband.
    The process began quite a while ago when the late Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan gave his mantle to her prior to his retirement. She visited his farm at Pindar’s Corners, NY (located near my residence) prior to running for his NY Senate seat.
    Has she been effective as a state senator? Roll the 2002 Senate debate (C-span) prior to the vote authorizing military force against Iraq.
    No, she has been a failure as a senator. She would also be a failure as a president. Her tactics are obvious.
    Her ambition drives expediency…see support of McSame.

  37. 37
    Incertus says:

    Here’s something to consider, if you really want Clinton to drop out:

    Stop telling her she should, or that she has to for the good of the party.

    She didn’t get to this point by knuckling under to pressure, especially from men. Say what you will about her politics or her policies, or even the way she’s run her campaign, but she’s not going to be bullied out of this campaign. When she goes, it’ll be because she’s ready to go, and the more that the men in the party try to run her out, the longer she’ll stay.

  38. 38
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    Yes, Incertus, we know the type. It’s why we’re still in Iraq. What we’re suggesting BEHIND the calls to get out of the race is that we don’t need four more years of stubborn wrongheadedness.

  39. 39
    w vincentz says:

    Just above the top left hand corner of the Leave a Reply box is a square with >> on it. Click on the square to expand your options.
    To create the Blue highlight stuff, paste the text you wish to highlight into Leave a Reply. Now select it all then click the B-Quote (Block Quote) button. The block quote won’t show up in Preview until you start typing the rest of your post.

    Try it. You won’t break anything. If you’re worried about making a fool of yourself just remember that you’re posting on Balloon Juice: it’s where I post to make a fool of myself.

    Thanks, I always wondered how to do that. Many nights I’ve layed awake thinking and thinking.
    This is NEAT!

  40. 40
    JL says:

    typing the

    Just above the top left hand corner of the Leave a Reply box is a square with >> on it. Click on the square to expand your options.
    To create the Blue highlight stuff, paste the text you wish to highlight into Leave a Reply. Now select it all then click the B-Quote (Block Quote) button. The block quote won’t show up in Preview until you start

    rest of your post.

    Try it. You won’t break anything. If you’re worried about making a fool of yourself just remember that you’re posting on Balloon Juice: it’s where I post to make a fool of myself.

    It took me a while to find the>> because I did not have my glasses on. Now to my point, have you ever seen Obama really sweat or does he just step back and rearm? I like that about him because the last thing we need as a Commander and Chief is a hot headed macho jerk.

  41. 41
    Incertus says:

    Except that in this case, Iraq isn’t at stake. We’re talking about allowing a person to leave a race with her dignity intact, instead of leaving because the boys have told her she’s a smelly girl and was stupid for having tried to invade their he-man-woman-hater’s club.

    So ask yourself what you want—do you want her to leave, or do you want to try to bully her out of the race, because if it’s the latter, you’ll lose, and people like me who are fine with either candidate will applaud her every step of the goddamn way.

  42. 42
    JL says:

    So ask yourself what you want—-do you want her to leave, or do you want to try to bully her out of the race, because if it’s the latter, you’ll lose, and people like me who are fine with either candidate will applaud her every step of the goddamn way.

    I don’t want her to bully herself out of the election.

  43. 43
    myiq2xu says:

    Try it. You won’t break anything.

    Don’t be so sure. I almost did once.

  44. 44
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    Now to my point, have you ever seen Obama really sweat or does he just step back and rearm? I like that about him because the last thing we need as a Commander and Chief is a hot headed macho jerk.

    Usually he’ll open his eyes real wide in mock outrage and start rotating his head around on his shoulders while saying “Oh no you din’t girl!” But the one time he seemed to really get angry (when Hillary took the Rezko-slum-landlord shot) he just said, “Yo bitch, don’t be a playa hata.”

  45. 45
    Incertus says:

    I don’t want her to bully herself out of the election.

    I don’t either. I used to say that I wished this thing would be over, but that passed once I realized that 1) it was making Obama a better candidate, 2) it was strengthening the party in states that could use it and that could be swing states in November–would we be interested in North Carolina otherwise right now?–and 3) her continued candidacy reminds people that they’ll have the chance in November to make an historic choice, and people just love that shit.

  46. 46
    Brachiator says:

    Incertus Says:

    She didn’t get to this point by knuckling under to pressure, especially from men. Say what you will about her politics or her policies, or even the way she’s run her campaign, but she’s not going to be bullied out of this campaign. When she goes, it’ll be because she’s ready to go, and the more that the men in the party try to run her out, the longer she’ll stay.

    So if we get some women to ask her to leave, then it will be OK?

    So ask yourself what you want—-do you want her to leave, or do you want to try to bully her out of the race, because if it’s the latter, you’ll lose, and people like me who are fine with either candidate will applaud her every step of the goddamn way.

    Ironically enough, a considerable amount of the Clinton campaign has been spent in a naked attempt to bully Obama out of the race. And the bully-in-chief has often been her husband Bill, and in my book, two against one is meaner than two equal candidates. And to the degree that Bill and others are involved, it just doesn’t work to try to view this as a bunch of guys trying to bully brave Hillary.

  47. 47
    Pb says:

    It’s still reasonably close

    It isn’t reasonably close, but that, by itself, isn’t really enough of a reason to want Hillary out of the race.

    She does have an obligation to quit running a despicable campaign.

    That’s the reason. If she wants to be John McCain’s VP, then she can drop out and switch her registration. If she doesn’t, then she needs to start acting like it.

    We’re talking about allowing a person to leave a race with her dignity intact

    That ship has sailed.

    instead of leaving because the boys have told her she’s a smelly girl and was stupid for having tried to invade their he-man-woman-hater’s club.

    And if that’s the line she pushes when she does get out, if she doesn’t endorse Obama or keeps cheerleading for McCain, then she won’t get elected to dog-catcher, and she’ll certainly never get my vote for anything. 2012? Not gonna happen. However, that whould secure her the ‘Judas’ label once and for all. (Sorry crazy Carville, it ain’t Richardson)

  48. 48
    Ted says:

    Don’t be so sure. I almost did once.

    You did break it. Remember when you posted the entire thread as a blockquoted comment to the thread?

  49. 49
    JGabriel says:

    Doctor Jay:

    I’m with Chuck Todd. I think the continued campaign is a net plus for the fall, not a minus. Obama is sparring with a veteran fighter, the training can only help.

    I’d like to expand a little bit on what Doctor Jay says here. Both of the last two Democratic Presidents went through relatively lengthy primary campaigns. I think it helped them both to get elected.

    Why?

    Because it forces the candidates to get their state campaign organizations ready, and forces the candidates to campaign in more states, getting to know more people and to appeal to them for their vote.

    Whether Obama wins or loses the Pennsylvania primary, for instance, by the time the general election rolls around (assuming he wins the nomination) Obama will have already campaigned there, and changed some minds in his favor. McCain, on the other hand, isn’t campaigning there – he’s already got the nomination, why bother?

    So, yes, I think continuing the primary campaign, rather than calling for Clinton to drop out, is probably more beneficial than not. It builds and trains the infrastructure Obama will need in the fall. After all, having a short primary campaign sure didn’t help Kerry in 2004.

    .

  50. 50
    Incertus says:

    So if we get some women to ask her to leave, then it will be OK?

    Funny, but no. Just leave it alone. Despite all the blather to the contrary, she’s not hurting anything by staying in the race.

    Ironically enough, a considerable amount of the Clinton campaign has been spent in a naked attempt to bully Obama out of the race. And the bully-in-chief has often been her husband Bill, and in my book, two against one is meaner than two equal candidates. And to the degree that Bill and others are involved, it just doesn’t work to try to view this as a bunch of guys trying to bully brave Hillary.

    It didn’t chase him out of the race either, did it. Why in the hell should it work on her? That’s my point.

  51. 51
    Incertus says:

    And if that’s the line she pushes when she does get out, if she doesn’t endorse Obama or keeps cheerleading for McCain, then she won’t get elected to dog-catcher, and she’ll certainly never get my vote for anything. 2012? Not gonna happen. However, that whould secure her the ‘Judas’ label once and for all. (Sorry crazy Carville, it ain’t Richardson)

    In case you missed it, she already openly appealed to her supporters to support Obama if he’s the candidate. A McCain endorsement isn’t in the works.

  52. 52
    JL says:

    Usually he’ll open his eyes real wide in mock outrage and start rotating his head around on his shoulders while saying “Oh no you din’t girl!” But the one time he seemed to really get angry (when Hillary took the Rezko-slum-landlord shot) he just said, “Yo bitch, don’t be a playa hata.”

    Rezko was a big democratic supporter and Hillary knew that. I think that was the time Obama was calling her a hyprorite

  53. 53
    myiq2xu says:

    Let me use a sports analogy. How would you feel if your team was losing but the referees stopped the game while you still had a chance (albiet slim) of winning? Would you feel that the outcome was legitimate?

    In boxing they stop fights to protect the loser from serious injury, not to protect the winning fighter from a lucky punch.

    Even bad calls sting worse than a straight up loss. I was a kid when the Steelers beat the Raiders in the playoffs with the “Immaculate Reception.” I still hate the Steelers. I cheered for the NY Giants in the last Superbowl because I haven’t forgotten the “tuck rule” game.

    If Hillary gets her clock cleaned fair and square, her supporters will support Obama. But if they feel like she was cheated, or robbed by some backroom deal, many of them will not support Obama and may vote for McCain.

    Not me, I will be voting for the Democrat next November. But how many will do likewise?

    Keep in mind that just because you may suffer from CDS hate not like Hillary, some people genuinely think she is the best candidate. Insulting them (or Hillary) is not the way to win them over.

    Obama doesn’t insult Hillary as much as some of his supporters do. He treats her and speaks of her with respect. If you support him, you should do the same.

  54. 54
    JL says:

    sorry for misspelling, meant hypocrite

  55. 55
    myiq2xu says:

    You did break it.

    That wasn’t me, it was my evil twin. Besides, I didn’t actually break anything.

  56. 56
    cleek says:

    In case you missed it, she already openly appealed to her supporters to support Obama if he’s the candidate.

    only after learning that more than a 1/4/ or them were going to vote for McCain if she wasn’t the nominee.

    but wait. that makes no sense. i though Obama supporters were The Cult ?

    make my back. make my back burn!

  57. 57
    Incertus says:

    only after learning that more than a 1/4/ or them were going to vote for McCain if she wasn’t the nominee.

    So the fact that she didn’t say anything beforehand somehow proves that she was thinking about endorsing McCain? She said in response to a question at an event. Look, if you’re bound and determined to see evil in her works, you’ll see it. But that doesn’t mean every action she takes or every word she says is calculated for maximum effect.

  58. 58

    Meanwhile, it looks like Hillary’s sniper story really did happen. To Olympia Snowe.

  59. 59
    Pb says:

    she already openly appealed to her supporters to support Obama

    Not really–more of a “don’t vote for McCain”, only after her previous comments about how she and McCain are so great and all, but nevermind that Obama guy, started to come back and bite her. Of course, Bill Clinton’s still out there praising McCain to the skies, and I’m sure Mark Penn will have a bright future with the McCain campaign–his company already does. So we’ll see.

  60. 60
    cleek says:

    So the fact that she didn’t say anything beforehand somehow proves that she was thinking about endorsing McCain?

    no, i didn’t say that. but i think maybe she realized (or was told) the effect her rhetoric was having and is now trying to dial it back a bit in response.

    if you can answer this, i think it will prove one of us right: when was the last time she explicitly told her supporters to support Obama, should he become the nominee ? and was it before or after she set herself and McCain up as the only viable CiCs ?

  61. 61
    Incertus says:

    if you can answer this, i think it will prove one of us right: when was the last time she explicitly told her supporters to support Obama, should he become the nominee ? and was it before or after she set herself and McCain up as the only viable CiCs ?

    I don’t think it matters. I think that was a line she threw out there, probably on some bad advice from Mark Penn, and it blew up in her face, and this is he way of atoning for it. Like I’ve said before–it’s March. Most of what gets said now doesn’t matter, and I have absolutely no doubt that if Obama is the nominee that she’ll be campaigning for him. People who think she’s going to hook up with McCain are so out of touch with her that it’s actually funny to watch.

  62. 62
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    Keep in mind that just because you may suffer from CDS hate not like Hillary, some people genuinely think she is the best candidate. Insulting them (or Hillary) is not the way to win them over.

    Obama doesn’t insult Hillary as much as some of his supporters do. He treats her and speaks of her with respect. If you support him, you should do the same.

    I can treat hideous online Hillary supporters any way I want. I don’t care if they’re such emotional midgets that they can’t recover from an anonymous commenter in time to vote for Obama. We’ll win with without you just like we bitchsmacked you in the primary.

    I’ve sat through the most unfair and disgusting namecalling and smears from Hillary supporters (like you) for months and months. You all didn’t care how bad you jacked us up and I’m here to return the favor, asswipe.

    Your candidate sucks and you suck. You blew a 30 point polling lead with unprecedented name recognition since George Washington himself, huge money advantage, a phenomenal Democratic machine advantage, massive early superdelegate support and an enormously popular former President running by proxy.

    And you lost it all because of hubris and arrogance. I lost count of how many times I was called naive or stupid by HRC supporters in the TPMElectionCentral threads, for one. You all looked down your noses at those of us who wouldn’t fall down on our faces in front of your queen.

    Now you’re telling us we have to kiss your asses so you’ll support Obama?? Fuck you!

  63. 63
    Ted says:

    Obama doesn’t insult Hillary as much as some of his supporters do. He treats her and speaks of her with respect. If you support him, you should do the same.

    True enough. I still think Hillary’s would be a more entertaining presidency. The wailing and gnashing of teeth by the Republicans for 4+ years alone would be a joy. And then hers and Bill’s vindictive nature, beating the GOP like a red-headed step-child would be delightful.

    But these are guilty pleasures, and not very productive, I guess.

  64. 64
    cleek says:

    Most of what gets said now doesn’t matter

    i think it matters a little. most of it will fade away. but a little of it will stay. and, the longer this primary drags on, the less time there is for this stuff to fade away.

    People who think she’s going to hook up with McCain are so out of touch with her that it’s actually funny to watch.

    no doubt.

    i think she’s ruthless, craven and disingenuous, but i don’t think she’s a Republican.

  65. 65
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    JC, you may want to fix the “Something” in the post title “And Now For Somethign Completely Different”.

  66. 66
    w vincentz says:

    Just Some F H,
    Wowser! Thanks for saying whatcha said so gently. I would’ve been a bit more forceful.

  67. 67
    scrutinizer says:

    True enough. I still think Hillary’s would be a more entertaining presidency.

    While I agree, I’m not at all sure that Clinton could win the Presidency. The VRWC isn’t pushing Repubs to cross over in open primaries to vote for her because they think she’ll be harder to defeat than Obama. If she were to win the nomination, I’m afraid it would be the 90’s all over again.

    Once was enough, thanks.

  68. 68
    Krista says:

    And then hers and Bill’s vindictive nature, beating the GOP like a red-headed step-child would be delightful.

    Man, I wish people could stop using that expression

    Sincerely,

    A red-headed step-child

  69. 69
    John S. says:

    Not me, I will be voting for the Democrat next November. But how many will do likewise?

    Anyone with enough of a brain to realize that the alternative is a continuation of Bush’s presidency.

    I realize this precludes 25% of the country or so, but I don’t think many of tyhem identify as Democrat (or Independent for that matter).

  70. 70
    Walker says:

    Let me just say that she is my senator. I am seriously reconsidering my vote as senator after her actions in this campaign (well, that and her batshit crazy economic policies like freezing interest rates or picking Greenspan to oversee the credit mess).

    Giving her senate seat to a Republican is not as disastrous as giving the presidency to the Republicans.

  71. 71
    ACK says:

    I’m with Chuck Todd. I think the continued campaign is a net plus for the fall, not a minus. Obama is sparring with a veteran fighter, the training can only help.

    I watched Chuck Todd on Hardball, and he did say that he did not believe that going all the way to the convention would be good for the two Democratic candidates.

    On his online column he wrote this

    There will be a point where she could do damage to the party but we’re not there yet.

    Possibly, the point is May 6, the North Carolina and Indiana primaries.

    That sounds pretty reasonable.

  72. 72
    w vincentz says:

    Ralphie wants her to stay in:
    http://www.politico.com/blogs/....._back.html

  73. 73
    myiq2xu says:

    Anyone with enough of a brain to realize that the alternative is a continuation of Bush’s presidency.

    So all Democrats (including the AA community) can be counted on to support Hillary if the unpledged delegates hand her the nomination?

  74. 74
    Tax Analyst says:

    Krista Says:

    And then hers and Bill’s vindictive nature, beating the GOP like a red-headed step-child would be delightful.

    Man, I wish people could stop using that expression

    Sincerely,

    A red-headed step-child

    Aye, Querida…I am CRAZY for zee Red-Headed Step-Child…aye, caramba…eet eez way too bad you are already married, no?

    I don’t suppose you speak French as well?

    Sincerely,

    Gomez Addams

  75. 75

    […] See Also: Clinton’s Current Strategy, Media Blowjobs for Obama: Can Somebody Please Keep Score?, Hillary Will Not Quit, Nader to Clinton: Buck Up, Ignore the Anti-Democracy Chumps, and And Now For Somethign Completely Different. […]

  76. 76
    libarbarian says:

    So, in fairness, perhaps Hillary really does believe Obama is fatally flawed and that if she does not keep fighting, the Democrats will blow it.

    This might be true. It is also true that some people have an almost pathological ability to believe arguments, regardless of how tenuous, which tell them that what is best for them is also best for everyone. Some pedophiles seem to really think they are doing the kids a favor. Go figure.

  77. 77
    Walker says:

    So all Democrats (including the AA community) can be counted on to support Hillary if the unpledged delegates hand her the nomination?

    Yes. It won’t happen. But yes.

  78. 78
    A.Political says:

    bottom line….this type of introspection would never happen on TalkLeft….g’night

  79. 79
    Dennis - SGMM says:

    So all Democrats (including the AA community) can be counted on to support Hillary if the unpledged delegates hand her the nomination?

    If the unpledged (Automatic, Super, what-the-fucking-ever) delegates hand Clinton the nomination in the face of an Obama pledged delegate majority then the Democratic party has once again figured out how to throw an election.
    When I am at my most cynical and pessimistic I tend to believe that there is only one snake, it just has two heads. This would prove my worst musings right.

  80. 80
    myiq2xu says:

    When I am at my most cynical and pessimistic I tend to believe that there is only one snake, it just has two heads.

    Your snake has two heads?

    Were you born that way or is it an, uh . . . “war wound?”

  81. 81
    Dennis - SGMM says:

    Your snake has two heads?

    Were you born that way or is it an, uh . . . “war wound?”

    No, it’s a whore wound.

  82. 82
    Asti says:

    When your own party is flinging shit at you, I think it cuts deeper.

    The only thing Democratic about Hilly Clinton is the “D” after her name.

  83. 83
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    So all Democrats (including the AA community) can be counted on to support Hillary if the unpledged delegates hand her the nomination?

    Well of course not. We’ll need time to emotionally blackmail online HRC supporters, tell you how you need to be nice to us or we won’t support your candidate, tell you how you’ve been so mean to us when all we’ve been is sunshine and sugary goodness, how we need time to overcome the stinging slap of being told by you that “the White House is called that for a reason, blacks need not apply”. Yeah, goose, gander, all that.

    Wankers.

  84. 84
    Asti says:

    Yes. It won’t happen. But yes.

    Walker, don’t speak for me. I have no intention of voting for that right-leaning powermonger.

  85. 85
    Trabb's Boy says:

    There really is no doubt that there’s a bit of fad about Obama. A big chunk of his support is young people that haven’t been involved in political issues — people that maybe got caught up by the speeches, by that song, by the fact that lots of other young people are caught up in it. Hillary may legitimately be concerned that this segment of Obama’s support will get bored and wander off by November.

    I think he’s got so much more behind the persona that even if the youth vote doesn’t come through for some reason, he can win over Hillary’s supporters and carry the day just with them if he needs to. But she’s got to get out so he has a chance. Really, whether she’s being legitimately concerned or selfish doesn’t really matter. This race has already been decided.

  86. 86
    Dug Jay says:

    If this story is true, then folks should be sure and hit John’s tip jar, and hit it hard.

    Otherwise real Americans will have to come to the rescue with their money.

  87. 87
    myiq2xu says:

    No, it’s a whore wound.

    Now I have to clean beer off my monitor and desk.

    “I don’t care who you are, that’s funny right there!”

  88. 88
    A.Political says:

    myiq2xu Says:
    “blah blah whatever, blech, this is excellent news for Hillary…blah I know more than my moms, blah blah I have my GED”

    yup, just as eloquent as when you’re posting on the Globe and Mails site…lol.

  89. 89
    Asti says:

    Your candidate sucks and you suck. You blew a 30 point polling lead with unprecedented name recognition since George Washington himself, huge money advantage, a phenomenal Democratic machine advantage, massive early superdelegate support and an enormously popular former President running by proxy.

    And you lost it all because of hubris and arrogance. I lost count of how many times I was called naive or stupid by HRC supporters in the TPMElectionCentral threads, for one. You all looked down your noses at those of us who wouldn’t fall down on our faces in front of your queen.

    Wow, that’s some awesome stuff there JSFH, and true too! ;)

  90. 90
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    Hillary may legitimately be concerned that this segment of Obama’s support will get bored and wander off by November.

    She should be concerned about her own supporters dying of old age before November or voting for Pat Buchanan again.

  91. 91
    Walker says:

    Walker, don’t speak for me. I have no intention of voting for that right-leaning powermonger.

    You would rather vote for Bush-plus (McCrazy)? Or do you just plan to stay home?

  92. 92
    Ted says:

    So all Democrats (including the AA community) can be counted on to support Hillary if the unpledged delegates hand her the nomination?

    I thought they were called “automatic delegates”. Did you get a new memo from Penn?

  93. 93
    myiq2xu says:

    A.Political Says:

    Leave the drunk blogging to those of us who know how.

  94. 94
    myiq2xu says:

    Did you get a new memo from Penn?

    Hill and I discussed it and she agreed with me, so she told Penn to change it.

  95. 95
    Dennis - SGMM says:

    Just heard Clinton, speaking in Indiana on “Countdown.” Is it just the wine or is Hillary sounding more and more like a Dalek?

  96. 96
    myiq2xu says:

    Is it just the wine or is Hillary sounding more and more like a Dalek?

    Depends which wine. Thunderbird or MD 20/20?

  97. 97
    Dennis - SGMM says:

    Depends which wine. Thunderbird or MD 20/20?

    Frater!

  98. 98
    Ted says:

    Man, I wish people could stop using that expression

    Sincerely,

    A red-headed step-child

    Haha, you’re right of course. It’s an awful expression.

  99. 99
    ThatLeftTurnInABQ says:

    This is worth quoting in full, because every word is spot on (except the part about the RRRRRaiduhs; sorry, but the MUP doesn’t transcend bitter NFL rivalries – that is just asking for too much):

    myiq2xu Says:

    Let me use a sports analogy. How would you feel if your team was losing but the referees stopped the game while you still had a chance (albiet slim) of winning? Would you feel that the outcome was legitimate?

    In boxing they stop fights to protect the loser from serious injury, not to protect the winning fighter from a lucky punch.

    Even bad calls sting worse than a straight up loss. I was a kid when the Steelers beat the Raiders in the playoffs with the “Immaculate Reception.” I still hate the Steelers. I cheered for the NY Giants in the last Superbowl because I haven’t forgotten the “tuck rule” game.

    If Hillary gets her clock cleaned fair and square, her supporters will support Obama. But if they feel like she was cheated, or robbed by some backroom deal, many of them will not support Obama and may vote for McCain.

    Not me, I will be voting for the Democrat next November. But how many will do likewise?

    Keep in mind that just because you may not like Hillary, some people genuinely think she is the best candidate. Insulting them (or Hillary) is not the way to win them over.

    Obama doesn’t insult Hillary as much as some of his supporters do. He treats her and speaks of her with respect. If you support him, you should do the same.

    myiq speaks words of considerable wisom, which everyone who support Obama (or the Democratic party more generally) should heed, IMHO.

    Thanks myiq! Please do this more often.

    P.S. – just kidding about the Raiders. I rooted for them for a long time – I can still picture in my mind’s eye Clarence Davis’s game winning “Sea of Hands” catch in the 1974 Divisional playoffs vs. the Dolphins, how the fans in the stands (this was at Oakland) were waving around black underwear during the game (to snark on the white hankerchiefs that the dolphin fans used to wave), and how at the end of the game the exicited Raider players tried to lift John Madden onto their shoulders to carry him off the field, but they couldn’t hoist him high enough up off the ground because he was too fat to lift.

    That wasn’t me, it was my evil twin.

    Is there something you’re not telling us?
    That would explain a lot, actually?

    [ducks and runs]

  100. 100
    Krista says:

    Tax Analyst Says:

    Krista Says:

    And then hers and Bill’s vindictive nature, beating the GOP like a red-headed step-child would be delightful.

    Man, I wish people could stop using that expression

    Sincerely,

    A red-headed step-child

    Aye, Querida…I am CRAZY for zee Red-Headed Step-Child…aye, caramba…eet eez way too bad you are already married, no?

    I don’t suppose you speak French as well?

    Sincerely,

    Gomez Addams

    Mais oui, je parle Français. Je suis Acadienne.

  101. 101
    Dennis - SGMM says:

    Haha, you’re right of course. It’s an awful expression.

    And leave me out of it too.
    [Signed]
    A Rented Mule

  102. 102
    Pb says:

    Incertus,

    I don’t think it matters. I think that was a line she threw out there, probably on some bad advice from Mark Penn, and it blew up in her face, and this is he way of atoning for it. Like I’ve said before—it’s March. Most of what gets said now doesn’t matter, and I have absolutely no doubt that if Obama is the nominee that she’ll be campaigning for him. People who think she’s going to hook up with McCain are so out of touch with her that it’s actually funny to watch.

    Just words? You’re right, I’d be totally stupid to think that she actually believes anything that comes out of her mouth. Unless she does.

  103. 103
    Dennis - SGMM says:

    Je suis Acadienne.

    I doff my hat. The Acadians (Please pardon the Anglicization) have one of the most interesting histories on the planet.

  104. 104
    BH Buck says:

    A.Political Says:

    myiq2xu Says:
    “blah blah whatever, blech, this is excellent news for Hillary…blah I know more than my moms, blah blah I have my GED”

    LOL! Stop it… my sides are hurting! LOL!

  105. 105
    BH Buck says:

    Dug Jay Says:
    If this story is true, then folks should be sure and hit John’s tip jar, and hit it hard.

    Hit John’s tip jar? I’d rather hit a few MF republicans. They are the fu(king reason shit like this is happening.

    Congrats Dug Jay. Hopefully you and your family members will fall through the cracks also.

  106. 106
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    ThatLeftTurnInABQ fellating Milqyick.

    Any reconciliation starts with HRC suspending her campaign and apologizing for her “kitchen sink” strategy, for running like a Republican in a Democratic primary, for endorsing John McCain over Obama (this part needs to be genuine tearful mea culpa including something to the effect of how stupid she was to do such a stupid thing), for constantly trying to change the primary rules that all candidates agreed to beforehand, for continually disrespecting the voters of the states that didn’t go for her, for threatening a contentious and brokered convention, for threatening to steal pledged delegates, for voting for the Iraq war and for egregiously padding her resume.

    After that, online HRC supporters need to apologize profusely and get lost for a few months until we forget what absolute unsufferable asses they’ve been. Then sometime in late October, they can come crawling back and beg to be allowed to support the Democratic nominee.

    And I’m firm on this. I don’t negotiate with terrorists.

  107. 107
    Martin says:

    Grr.

    Federal records show that Paul Cejas has given six-figure sums to the Democratic National Committee for years, NBC 6’s Nick Bogert reported.

    Cejas asked for his last donation back. He said he was angry with the party, particularly party Chair Howard Dean, over the failure to resolve Florida’s delegate dilemma.

    “Frankly, he’s dropped the ball, and I told him, ‘You’re going to go down in history as the worst chairman of the Democratic Party if you do not fix and seat the delegates of Florida,'” Cejas said.

    Cejas, a longtime friend of former President Bill Clinton and Sen. Hillary Clinton, was ambassador to Belgium during Clinton’s presidency. Because he supports Hillary Clinton, he said he would prefer to have her Florida primary win count, but he feels that Dean should have engineered a do-over vote by now.

    DNC handed him his money back. How is this helping the party, Senator Clinton?

    And nobody from the Clinton campaign would ever take such a hard-lined stand against a state’s delegates:

    Michigan Democrats Mull Early Caucus
    From: AP Online Date: February 21, 2003 Author: NEDRA PICKLER, Associated Press Writer

    Dateline: WASHINGTON Some leading Michigan Democrats want to break New Hampshire’s control over the nation’s first presidential primary and move their nominating caucus to the same day.
    Democratic National Committee rules say no states can hold their nominating contest before Iowa, which has set its caucuses for Jan. 19, and New Hampshire, which has a tentative primary date of Jan. 27. States that violate the rule risk having their delegates prevented from being seated at the convention.
    “So let them not seat us,” challenged Democratic National Committee member Debbie Dingell, wife of Rep. John Dingell, D-Mich.
    DNC Chairman Terry McAuliffe said he believes the national committee will work something out with the state’s party leaders, but if they decide to violate the rules, he will enforce the penalty.

  108. 108
    ThatLeftTurnInABQ says:

    Just Some Fuckhead Says:

    ThatLeftTurnInABQ fellating Milqyick.

    JSF,

    Tone down the hostility amigo. I’ve been all-in for Obama since I started posting on this blog and have the rants to prove it, but you aren’t doing either Obama or the Democratic party or the nation any favors with your out of control ‘tude.

    Calm down – take a hint from the MUP himself, huh? Hasn’t the overall theme of his campaign been to rid ourselves of bad political habits (like screaming at each other) which have been counterproductive and need to be unlearned if we are to get anywhere other than where we’ve already been?

    Compared with the usual fare that myiq dishes out here, that comment which I just quoted from was sweet reason itself. I’ll slam people when they troll, but the converse of that is if somebody is going to dial it back and look for dialog then I’ve gonna back them up, even if I don’t agree with them.

    Do you think that maybe the really hardcore HRC supporters may have some stages of grief to go thru if/when she withdraws from the campaign? How would you feel if the shoe was on the other foot?

    Cut them a little slack, it might actually help the candidate we are backing to win in November, which is kinda the whole point, isn’t it? Do you want their votes, or just their asses mounted on a stick? For me, I’m keeping my eyes on the prize.

  109. 109
    Krista says:

    I doff my hat. The Acadians (Please pardon the Anglicization) have one of the most interesting histories on the planet.

    Why thank you sir. And fear not about the Anglicization. Those of us who are fully bilingual switch back and forth from English to French even within the same sentence. For example, je peut dire, “Ma soeur travaille au grocery store à pousser des shopping carts”, et tout la rest de mes friends vont me comprendre.

    It really messes people up. And it pisses off the more uptight Quebecois. Win-win, really.

  110. 110
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    Last time I checked, ThatLeftTurnInABQ, HRC is still in the race and still pulling shit out of the garbage disposal to throw, still trying to change the rules, still threatening to blow up anyone that gets in their way, still staying up til 3AM trying to figure out how to steal the nomination from the pledged delegate leader. And her supporters are still pissing in everyone’s wheaties online.

    So I think you’ve got a premature reconciliation going on here. I appreciate your efforts to hold hands with the worst of them and sing whatever tune they tell you but it makes you look weak and compromising and it only emboldens the terrorists. Hillary’d already have her k-bar knife in yer left lung.

  111. 111
    cbear says:

    their asses mounted on a stick

    Tleftturn,

    Well now, here’s somebody who knows how to turn a phrase…nicely done.

    However, after 7+ years of the most violent ass-reaming in our nation’s history, I seriously doubt that there’s an American left alive with the requisite rectal structure to stay up on the stick.

  112. 112
    Ted says:

    JSF,

    Tone down the hostility amigo.

    Nah. Those rants are hilarious. You read John Cole, don’t you? Same thing. Funny.

  113. 113
    Mary says:

    Ahem. I’d like to go on record that Franglais does not piss me off. Maybe some other gens, but pas moi.

    Carry on.

  114. 114
    Krista says:

    And it pisses off the more uptight Quebecois. Win-win, really

    Hm. I should have phrased that better, eh, Mary? It came across as though I was saying that all Quebecois are uptight, when I was actually trying to say that it pisses off some of the particular Quebecois who happen to be quite uptight about the sanctity of the French language.

    Tabarouette, I should probably learn how to communicate in one language before I start speaking using two of them, shouldn’t I? ;)

  115. 115
    Asti says:

    You would rather vote for Bush-plus (McCrazy)? Or do you just plan to stay home?

    I will sit home. I will not vote for a Republican scam, I do not like them Sam I am.

  116. 116
    bwaage says:

    Let me use a sports analogy. How would you feel if your team was losing but the referees stopped the game while you still had a chance (albiet slim) of winning? Would you feel that the outcome was legitimate?

    This is a primary. The more apt sports analogy would be calling a scrimmage at practice when one side is far behind and starts going after your starting QB’s knees.

    If Hillary gets her clock cleaned fair and square, her supporters will support Obama. But if they feel like she was cheated, or robbed by some backroom deal, many of them will not support Obama and may vote for McCain.

    Can you name any plausible scenario where Hillary wins the nomination as a result of something other than a backroom deal? I don’t see how you can say that superdelegates rallying around the current leader in pledged delegates, states and popular vote is somehow cheating/robbing/backroom dealing, while at the same time about 99% of possible winning scenarios for Clinton involve superdelegates going AGAINST the leader in states and pledged delegates (and likely popular vote, too, but that’s less certain).

  117. 117
    Brachiator says:

    myiq2xu Says:

    In boxing they stop fights to protect the loser from serious injury, not to protect the winning fighter from a lucky punch.

    I love sports analogies. Senator Clinton, the boxer, has been hitting Obama with low blows, she has been holding him and hitting him with extra blows in the clinch. She has tried to gouge him in the eye, and has rubbed some mysterious substance smeared on her gloves into his eyes, attempting to blind him.

    In any fair fight, she would have been disqualified long ago.

    If Hillary gets her clock cleaned fair and square, her supporters will support Obama. But if they feel like she was cheated, or robbed by some backroom deal, many of them will not support Obama and may vote for McCain.

    You have it backwards. Senator Clinton has been getting her clock cleaned fair and square from the jump by Obama. She can only win by a backroom deal which robs all of the people who have voted for Obama of their choice.

    That Clinton supporters might vote for McCain is an empty threat. The same is true of most Obama supporters (Independents are a wild card). I cannot imagine a pro-choice Clinton supporter voting from a decidedly anti-choice McCain.

    Not me, I will be voting for the Democrat next November. But how many will do likewise?

    I’m an Independent. I will probably vote for any Democratic Party nominee. Or not vote for the presidential candidate at all. And here it is not simply because I am anti-Clinton. The tactics deployed by her campaign people have needlessly squandered the voter enthusiasm that the Obama campaign, and the initial efforts of the Clinton campaign, had engendered. I have already seen the crass cynicism and single-minded blindness of Mark Penn and others do serious damage to the Democratic Party in California. Not having learned anything from the spanking that Governator Arnold gave them in the recall election, they are now wreaking havoc on a national level. In the long run, this may prove to be lethal to the Democratic Party.

    Keep in mind that just because you may suffer from CDS hate not like Hillary, some people genuinely think she is the best candidate. Insulting them (or Hillary) is not the way to win them over.

    I am not generally interested in insulting Clinton supporters. However, Senator Clinton herself has earned her stripes and medals as an object of ridicule (see her War Journals for details on this). She insults any intelligent person when she tries to amp up her wandering through the White House serving cookies as having gained some kind of “rich experience.” She deliberately plays her supporters for fools when she blathers on about some mythical commander-in-chief “threshold” that she and McCain has crossed, but which eludes Obama.

    I have noted before that I respect some of her accomplishments as a senator, and don’t give a rat’s ass about any of the bile spilled by the Clinton haters about her past or the personal details of her marriage. Just. Don’t.Care.

    Her general performance during the debates and on the campaign trail have convinced me that she is not qualified to be president of the United States, even compared to those who have dropped out of the race.

    Her lies, obfuscations, distortions and evasions say that she does not take voters and citizens seriously.

    By mocking her, we return the favor.

  118. 118
    ThatLeftTurnInABQ says:

    JSF,

    I’m reading the tea leaves differently from you, obviously.

    I think the recent polling data showing the big hit in approval ratings that Hillary took recently, the Gallup tracking poll results showing Obama has regained the lead nationwide and is now ahead by a statistically significant 8 points, and recent polls in PA and NC may have given the HRC campaign reason to reassess their tactics (if not their goals).

    Her recent speech attacking McCain’s economic policy might be the first hints of a more positive approach going forward.

    Parenthetically, I think much of the bile has been driven by Bill rather than Hillary. I suspect that Obama’s Reagan vs. Bill Clinton legacy comments enraged him and he is determined to prevent Obama from not going on to justify those comments by eclipsing him as a Democratic President. Unlike Hillary, he has no Senate seat to fall back on, and I don’t think he is adjusting well psychologically to the idea of being displaced as the top heavyweight in the party.

    There have been plenty of rumors surfacing on blogs and new sites that the HRC campaign is internally divided between hard-line and go-softer camps, so I think while the hard-liners have had their way since the leadup to Ohio, they may have been discredited by their recent dismal results and we may see the softer side of the HRC campaign back in the driver’s seat soon.

    All of which means that right now I’m feeling confident that Obama will keep it close enough in PA and win strongly enough in NC that we may have turned a corner on this campaign and the endgame is now in sight. If true, this means that this is not the correct time to back the HRC supporters up against a wall leaving them feeling as if they have no way out but by going down fighting.

    With regard to her online supporters, please pay attention to context. You really ought to judge each comment against the baseline established by that particular person’s prior comments on the same blog in order to understand what it might mean. I don’t remember seeing your handle here before, so if you have been around this site for a long time then my mistake, but if you are new then you might want to browse the archives or wait a bit to get a feel for the place before harshing on people. You’ll understand the context of a comment better if you have a feel for the ebb and flow of comments and the personalities involved. I’ve been lurking on this blog since mid-2006, and it is only very recently that I’ve had enough spare time that I could write comments and post them rather than just struggling to keep up with reading it all.

    The same applies to campaigns – this one might seem horrible, but compared with the 1972 campaign (which I remember) it is a tea party. A lot of tough rhetoric has been thrown around but mercifully there has been little evidence of dirty tricks or sabotage, vote fraud, etc. Remember what Harry Truman said about heat and kitchens.

    YMMV, obviously.

  119. 119
    Xanthippas says:

    John,

    This is a nice change of pace from the “OMG kill me” posts that you’ve been writing lately about Hillary. But I have to say, having gone to pro-Hillary blogs like TalkLeft on a regular basis and reading their ridiculous rantings and deliberate borrowing of right-wing talking points when it comes to Obama, I’m now more than ready to come over here and read you ripping Hillary and her supporters a new one. Your posts are a nice antidote to their bitching and moaning and even at your worst, you’re not nearly as deranged as Andrew Sullivan.

  120. 120
    ThatLeftTurnInABQ says:

    Yuck – I messed up with a double negative. Scratch the not and change that to:

    “he is determined to prevent Obama from going on to justify those comments by eclipsing him as a Democratic President.”

  121. 121
    PaulB says:

    I thought they were called “automatic delegates”. Did you get a new memo from Penn?

    The excuse for using “automatic delegates” was that it was the “proper” thing to call them since it was in the rules. Not only was this stupid, and not only was it pointed out that myiq hadn’t started calling them that until the Clinton campaign started its spin, but it was also revealed on that thread that “automatic delegates” was in the rules only once whereas “unpledged delegates” was used 16 times. In a face-saving gesture (too late!), myiq decided to switch to the latter formulation.

  122. 122
    Ted says:

    Not only was this stupid, and not only was it pointed out that myiq hadn’t started calling them that until the Clinton campaign started its spin, but it was also revealed on that thread that “automatic delegates” was in the rules only once whereas “unpledged delegates” was used 16 times. In a face-saving gesture (too late!), myiq decided to switch to the latter formulation.

    I believe that officially qualifies as evidence that Myiq is nothing but a hack.

  123. 123
    tBone says:

    Obama doesn’t insult Hillary as much as some of his supporters do. He treats her and speaks of her with respect. If you support him, you should do the same.

    This is good advice, if the Clinton campaign will reciprocate and treat us with respect. No more talk about states that don’t count. No more cozying up to McCain. No more bullying Pelosi. etc etc

    I do think it’s been good to see how Obama reacts under fire, and I don’t think Hillary needs to drop out at this point. If Obama keeps it relatively close in PA and scores a decisive victory in NC, then it will be time for her to go. Dragging things out until the convention and a nasty floor fight won’t help anybody.

    I still believe, despite her campaign’s best efforts to dissuade me, that Hillary will stop short of torching the entire party in her quest for the nomination. When all is said and done, I think she’ll exit relatively gracefully, many of her supporters will get over the hard feelings and line up behind the MUP, and we can finally focus on the true objective: beating the Republicans like … children of indeterminate hair color and parentage.

    BTW, John, nice to see that you still have a knack for stepping back for some self-reflection. That’s always been one of the great things about this blog. That, and the indiscriminate kitten skull-fucking.

  124. 124
    Pb says:

    I still believe, despite her campaign’s best efforts to dissuade me, that Hillary will stop short of torching the entire party in her quest for the nomination.

    Sure. I mean, she’s only really trying to torch, like, half the party, what with the donor threats, the cozying up to McCain, and the glib mentions of fights at the convention. But as Incertus made me realize, why should we think that she actually means anything she says, anyhow? So I’m sure she doesn’t mean it. Unless she does, after all.

  125. 125
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    TLTIABQ,

    You aren’t reading the tea leaves differently, you’re smoking ’em.

    There is no damn kumbaya thing happening here. HRC is still planning to win this on the third round of convention balloting, she’s still surrounded by the same group of disgusting corporate sycophants she started with, her husband is still out there spinning lies about how close the race is and her supporters are still online making thinly-veiled racist remarks about Obama (caged in terms of “electability”) and otherwise stinkin’ up the joint.

    With regards to her supporters, fuck ’em. I’m not ready to play nice. Like I said, reconciliation starts with HRC conceding and her supporters apologizing profusely and disappearing at least until October.

    As to your not-so-subtle “hey you must be new around here”, I’m not new around here. I was arguing with milqyick back when he was pretending to be an Edwards supporter so he could slime Obama and help Hillary while making Edwards supporters look bad. A bad faith twofer!

    All you are doing is making us look amicable to an eventual HRC nomination steal. If you can’t think of anything angry and inflammatory to say, you should just keep quiet until this thing is over.

  126. 126
    myiq2xu says:

    myiq decided to switch to the latter formulation.

    believe that officially qualifies as evidence that Myiq is

    I leave and long after I stop posting, y’all work up the courage to start talking smack about me like anybody cares what you think.

    Jeebus! Y’all sound like a couple of fleas arguing over who owns the dog.

  127. 127
    Xenos says:

    It really messes people up. And it pisses off the more uptight Quebecois. Win-win, really.

    I have trouble following the dictates of the language police when they tell me that the correct French term for “shopping cart” is “le chariot”. I start thinking of Diomedes pushing a shopping cart on the plains of Troy and begin giggling uncontrollably.

  128. 128
    John S. says:

    I leave and long after I stop posting, y’all work up the courage to start talking smack about me like anybody cares what you think.

    Narcissus couldn’t have said it better himself.

  129. 129
    Rarely Posts says:

    “A good movie that lasted about a half an hour too long.” sez Barak Obama on the primary.

    Is Mr. Obama getting tired? Calling for Hillary to step down?

  130. 130
    ACK says:

    “A good movie that lasted about a half an hour too long.” sez Barak Obama on the primary.

    That quote is a bit truncated.

    He went on to say, in the very next sentence, (and this is a rough paraphrase as I can’t find any transcripts yet) — but that’s okay because everyone knows how important the issues are and we are focused on the issues of the country, we will all come together, he and Hillary are friends, yada yada yada…

    Again, rough paraphrase, but I do think it gives your quote a bit more context.

  131. 131
    myiq2xu says:

    Narcissus couldn’t have said it better himself.

    Do you ever add anything constructive to the mix or do you just talk shit all the time?

    “A critic is someone who thinks the soup tastes better after he pisses in it.”

  132. 132
    Soylent Green says:

    On MSNBC recently, Tweety and his usual suspects mulled the idea of an Obama-Clinton ticket this fall as an unbeatable one-two punch that would erase the bitterness of the primary and expand the party’s reach in the GE.

    In their minds there would be nothing particularly surprising, in the realm of big-stakes politics, about Obama offering the VP slot to Hillary or her acceptance. No they don’t like each other, and her tactics have been ugly. That didn’t stop JFK from running with Lyndon Johnson, and there was no love in that relationship either.

    Do the pundits know something we don’t know? Are politicians so detached or cynical that all is forgiven no matter what has been said and done? I doubt that Obama would make the offer, if only because it’s a package deal; you don’t get Hillary without Bill. I doubt that she would take it. But is it plausible?

    Clinton intends to go down swinging and it’s better for her followers if she does. Then they can have closure and move on, and she can save face and do the same. Then presumably she will come out in praise of her good friend Barack without hesitation, on the ticket or off.

    I don’t want her on the ticket, but winning in November trumps everything.

  133. 133
    myiq2xu says:

    Tinker, Evers and Chance didn’t get along very well either, but they’re in the Hall of Fame.

  134. 134
    PaulB says:

    Do you ever add anything constructive to the mix or do you just talk shit all the time?

    ROFL…. Oh, the irony….

  135. 135

    […] And Now For Somethign Completely Different […]

  136. 136
    PaulB says:

    I believe that officially qualifies as evidence that Myiq is nothing but a hack.

    More accurately: a troll. He’s refraining from using the far more common “superdelegates” nomenclature, despite having used it repeatedly in the past, pretty much solely because he knows it irritates Obama supporters.

  137. 137
    Pb says:

    myiq2xu,

    A critictroll is someone who thinks the soup tastes better after he pisses in it.

    You ain’t no critic, either.

  138. 138
    ThatLeftTurnInABQ says:

    JSF says:

    You aren’t reading the tea leaves differently, you’re smoking ‘em.

    Impressive analysis you’ve got there. Nice debate technique too. I always enjoy the sight of a real pro making the extra effort to address the specific points I posted and rebut them in detail.

    With regards to her supporters, fuck ‘em. I’m not ready to play nice. Like I said, reconciliation starts with HRC conceding and her supporters apologizing profusely and disappearing at least until October.

    You’ll notice that I take pains to make a distinction between the HRC campaign, and the voters who are backing her. There is a reason for this – we need one but not the other, in order to win in November. Winning is more important to me than the psychodramas. YMMV.

    I understand and share your anger towards the HRC campaign. But the HRC voters are not the same as the campaign, and up to this point they have chosen her over him for a very wide variety of reasons (some malign and racist, and others not) which differ with each individual voter.

    Explain to me please how it is that you think the latter folks will be more likely to vote for Obama when people like you are demanding that they first have to repent and submit to a neo-Maoist self-criticism session before they are allowed to rejoin the Democratic flock.

    Maybe you could point me to an example of a past election campaign where this tactic actually worked?

    Perhaps you could point me to polling data indicating that very few of the voters currently backing Hillary will defect to the GOP or stay home in November.

    Perhaps a poll showing that Obama is leading McCain by such a huge margin that we can afford to tell a fairly large fraction of the Democratic party to either kiss our ass or just fuck off and die, and still expect to win?

    Or perhaps you could point me to statements made by Obama himself or his campaign indicating that this is a strategy which they approve of?

    Got anything?

    Anything at all?

    If you can’t think of anything angry and inflammatory to say, you should just keep quiet until this thing is over.

    Gee thanks, comrade. Why don’t you just post your detailed set of rules for what I’m allowed to say and in what tone of voice I’m allowed to say it, and I’ll take them under advisement. Four legs good, two legs bad.

  139. 139
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    TLTIABQ,

    Everything you say is correct, -IF- HRC had conceded already. Everything you say is correct, -IF- HRC’s paid online trolls were back in the underworld.

    But she hasn’t and they’re still here so your imagining of some sort of come-together moment is all in your head. There is still a fight to be had, all the way to the convention, according to the HRC campaign. You can stagger around trying to give the HRC supporters wet kisses but I’m going to fight.

    (cue your twelve page reply)

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  2. […] See Also: Clinton’s Current Strategy, Media Blowjobs for Obama: Can Somebody Please Keep Score?, Hillary Will Not Quit, Nader to Clinton: Buck Up, Ignore the Anti-Democracy Chumps, and And Now For Somethign Completely Different. […]

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