How to Convince Those Who Choose to Be Stupid

McQ at Q and O:

So, to the speech. I was immediately turned off by this:

I have already condemned, in unequivocal terms, the statements of Reverend Wright that have caused such controversy. For some, nagging questions remain. Did I know him to be an occasionally fierce critic of American domestic and foreign policy? Of course. Did I ever hear him make remarks that could be considered controversial while I sat in church? Yes. Did I strongly disagree with many of his political views? Absolutely – just as I’m sure many of you have heard remarks from your pastors, priests, or rabbis with which you strongly disagreed.

Of course the highlighted sentence directly contradicts his statement made in his Huff Po post just a few days ago:

The statements that Rev. Wright made that are the cause of this controversy were not statements I personally heard him preach while I sat in the pews of Trinity or heard him utter in private conversation.

One of those is a lie. I rarely use that word, and, in fact, have a real problem with those who misuse it routinely. When I use it I mean saying something you know to be untrue. So Obama either never heard him say controversial things about domestic and foreign policy while he sat in church or he did. Two days ago the answer was he hadn’t. Today he has? I can only believe the reason the answers are different is he is aware of some proof that will expose his first statement as untrue.

The stupid, it burns. Obama is talking about two different things. Was he personally there for the remarks which started this controversy (God damn America,etc.)? He says, in the Huffington Post piece, no. Was he there when Rev. Wright made other remarks which could be considered controversial? Yes, today he tells us, he has been.

This is not a lie, it was the polar opposite- it was complete honesty.

McQ can’t be that stupid. He really can’t. He was in the military for years and handled heavy weaponry, so I hope to God he really is not that stupid.

I need a filter that blocks out everything at Q and O other than Jon Henke posts.

*** Update ***

McQ responds, proving he is dumber than we feared:

John Cole, in what could be called “the audacity of a dope” tries to explain away Obama’s admission that he has indeed heard the controversial things his pastor has said while sitting in church after saying he hadn’t.

I remember when Cole used to be worth reading.

How could you possibly remember when I was worth reading? You can’t read.

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266 replies
  1. 1
    LiberalTarian says:

    McQ can’t be that stupid. He really can’t.

    Sure he can. And obviously is.

  2. 2
    cleek says:

    McQ can’t be that stupid. He really can’t.

    that leaves one other option.

  3. 3
    zzyzx says:

    They need some reason to keep this going. Wright is the last great hope of killing the MUP now that Rezko fizzled out. I don’t see it working though.

    My prediction is that by the middle of next week, we’ll be talking about some new scandal and Obama’s poll numbers will be back where they were.

  4. 4
    Laertes says:

    I dunno, John. To a person who isn’t already neck-deep in the swamp of Obama-hate, that looks like extraordinary stupidity.

    But what do you want to bet that lukasiak and myiq, who for all their many faults are likely of at least average intelligence, will similarly imagine that they see a contradiction there?

    There’s something else at work here besides mere stupidity.

  5. 5
    Jim Henley says:

    McQ is Grandpa Simpson without the pathos. Where’s the surprise?

  6. 6
    John S. says:

    But what do you want to bet that lukasiak and myiq, who for all their many faults are likely of at least average intelligence, will similarly imagine that they see a contradiction there?

    The fact that the Hillbots (who for the most part are otherwise solid Democrats) are sounding an awful lot like the right-wingers is absolutely painful to behold. Unfortunately, they are united in their opposition to the ‘enemy’, which for the time being is Obama.

    Politics really does make strange bedfellows.

  7. 7

    Re: Heavy Weapons

    Long-term exposure to loud noises causes brain damage.

    @Laertes: Lukasiak breaks my heart. The work he did investigating Dear Leader’s Alabama ANG record was incredible. Sterling. Seeing him now…well, I hope it’s just a phase.

  8. 8
    Xenos says:

    The only solution is to avoid that cesspool of psychopathy altogether. Even the most innocent attempt to engage those people in discussion releases the most astonishing display of dishonest rhetoric ploys and assertions.

    It goes beyond stupid and dishonest – it opens a hyperspace portal to a universe of bad faith.

  9. 9
    cleek says:

    Politics really does make strange bedfellowsbugs.

    fixed

  10. 10
    Jake says:

    McQ can’t be that stupid. He really can’t. He was in the military for years and handled heavy weaponry, so I hope to God he really is not that stupid.

    In that case just imagine the conflict John feels whenever McCane opens his mouth. Just imagine.

  11. 11
    orogeny says:

    I’m a Clinton supporter, so I guess I fit into that “Hillbot” category. I don’t see any contradiction at all in Obama’s statements. In one, he’s talking about a specific sermon given by Wright. He says he wasn’t there on that occasion. In the other, he says that he has been present when Wright made similarly bombastic statements, and he did not agree with those statements.

  12. 12
    Cyrus says:

    They need some reason to keep this going. Wright is the last great hope of killing the MUP now that Rezko fizzled out. I don’t see it working though.

    Obama scandal 1: he bought a house next to a con artist and he — along with a dozen other state and national politicians — got donations from the guy and has known him for years. No actual wrongdoing is alleged.
    Obama scandal 2: the preacher at his church, a friend of his, is black and has been critical of the country in occasional angry sermons.

    What, they couldn’t find a restaurant where he forgot to leave a tip?

  13. 13
    roadrunner says:

    Best reaction on the speech, from TalkLeft commenter Cream City:

    CNN, Wolfie, GloryBe Borger, et al. […] are just gushy about the speech. So is an AA guy on staff — “terrific, terrific, terrific” is not objectivity being practiced for the American public.

    I had to switch to Fox, once again, to try to find something fair and balanced. I keep thinking I have awakened into some sci-fi parallel universe where everything is reversed. . . .

    You have to wonder if the irony isn’t lost on someone who actually chooses to go by the handle ‘Cream City.’

  14. 14
    Jen says:

    He found you, and repeated the idiocy.

    , in what could be called “the audacity of a dope” tries to explain away Obama’s admission that he has indeed heard the controversial things his pastor has said while sitting in church after saying he hadn’t.

  15. 15
    Keith says:

    There’s something else at work here besides mere stupidity

    It’s projection. They hear what fits into their predetermined meme, and say it enough to get it to show up on primetime Fox News where it becomes an assumed fact (I was actually surprised Kristol retracted so early yesterday, because that’s where his op-ed was heading)

  16. 16
    Paul L. says:

    Did I ever hear him make remarks that could be considered controversial while I sat in church? Yes

    Translation.
    I knew Rev. Wright was a tool. I just did not know how big of a US-hating racist-baiting tool he was.

  17. 17
    Nikki says:

    He found you, and repeated the idiocy.

    And his commenters are seeing John’s point.

  18. 18
    HyperIon says:

    @Laertes: Lukasiak breaks my heart. The work he did investigating Dear Leader’s Alabama ANG record was incredible. Sterling. Seeing him now…well, I hope it’s just a phase.

    i don’t know who Laertes is and i haven’t followed closely the recent Clinton/Obama food fights here…just too stupid and tedious. BUT i have agreed with Lukasiak MANY TIMES when i have encountered him at Steve Clemons’ site and others. however, he does seem to have run off the rails on this topic. i, too, hope he regains the form i have previously admired.

  19. 19
    Jake says:

    Has anyone ever seen McQ and Gateway Pundit in the same room?

  20. 20
    The Other Steve says:

    McQ can’t be that stupid. He really can’t. He was in the military for years and handled heavy weaponry, so I hope to God he really is not that stupid.

    Partisan blindness. McQ is so blinded by his hatred of Obama, that he’s willing to believe anything to justify this hatred.

    As Keith notes. It’s the projection of BDS.

  21. 21
    Jorge says:

    Orogeny,
    Ed Schulz makes a great distinction between Clintonites (Clinton Supporters) and Clintonistas (militant Hillary worshipers). The same argument can be made about Obamanites (Obama supporters) and Obaminists (militant Obama worshipers). You seem like a Clintonite.

  22. 22
    ThymeZone says:

    It’s what I call the Rove Effect. People are so used to mendacious speech, equivocation, spinning the meaning of the word “is” and what it “is,” that they think everything they see in hear comes from that context.

    Obama just doesn’t play those kinds of games, and your friend there who doesn’t get that …. doesn’t get it.

    So be it. In this election, when we have Obama versus McCain, McCain is not going to ride to victory on a tide of fear of the black guy with the muslim-sounding name. McCain is going to have to stand up and be what he is, namely, a Vietnam war relic, a guy with no new ideas, a guy who shills for an unpopular war and unpopular president, and a guy who represents The Past as sure as if he were a bronze statue.

    People who “don’t get it” are not going to flock to the polls to sweep McCain into office.

  23. 23
    Prospero says:

    You are trying to explain to a republican that you can disagree with someone, and still count them among your friends.

  24. 24
    Sasha says:

    McQ can’t be that stupid. He really can’t. He was in the military for years and handled heavy weaponry, so I hope to God he really is not that stupid.

    Hopefully, he’s just a disingenuous, intentionally obdurate hack.

  25. 25
    Jay B. says:

    And his commenters are seeing John’s point.

    To be fair, it’s John’s readers who are commenting on McQ’s willful ignorance. His regulars think that we’re being ‘pedantic hair splitters’.

    What an amazing time we’re living in!

  26. 26
    Zifnab says:

    McQ can’t be that stupid.

    To paraphrase an Obama-fan:

    “Yes he can! Yes he can!”

  27. 27
    Martin says:

    TZ and TOS put another way:

    1) People in this country are so accustomed to being lied to by their TV, their president, and even their family that they really have lost the sense of what honesty is. When they do see it, they’ve learned to assume it’s actually a lie.

    2) Some people will only hear what they want to hear, whether it is truth or lies. All you can do is call them on their bullshit so often that they lock themselves in the basement where they can fully control their own reality, and as a result removing them from society. Then they discover blogging.

  28. 28
    John S. says:

    His regulars think that we’re being ‘pedantic hair splitters’.

    This from the people who have spent years trying to convince everyone that Bush never really tied Saddam to 9/11 or said that Iraq was an immediate threat to our national security.

    Interesting times indeed.

  29. 29
    RSA says:

    I have already condemned, in unequivocal terms, the stupidity of McQ. Did I know him to be stupid? Of course. Did I ever see him make blog posts that could be considered stupid as I read them? Yes. Did I strongly disagree with many of his political views? Absolutely.

    The post that McQ is currently being castigated for is not a post that I have personally read yet.

    One of these is a lie.

  30. 30
    Buck says:

    In this election, when we have Obama versus McCain, McCain is not going to ride to victory on a tide of fear of the black guy with the muslim-sounding name. McCain is going to have to stand up and be what he is, namely, a Vietnam war relic, a guy with no new ideas, a guy who shills for an unpopular war and unpopular president, and a guy who represents The Past as sure as if he were a bronze statue

    You make it sound so easy. I wish my faith in the intelligence of the American electorate was as strong as yours.

  31. 31
    John Harrold says:

    I wanted to know what the folks on the right were saying. I went over to Q and O (a website I really used to like), and I read the first two paragraphs. I scanned through the rest of it and left the following comment:

    I suppose it’s not possible that his pastor made controversial statements in church other than those that are causing the current controversy? I mean if it were possible to make controversial statements other than those being shown, then that wouldn’t be a lie would it?

    I’m probably never going back at this point.

  32. 32
    Mr Furious says:

    McQ can’t be that stupid. He really can’t.

    It’s called “willful ignorance.”

  33. 33
    AkaDad says:

    On Hardball, Tweety’s brother-in-law, conservative talk-show host Michael Smirkonish, who lives in PA, said it was a good speech and it answered a lot of questions.

  34. 34
    Jay B. says:

    One of these is a lie.

    Liar! They’re both true! The depths which you pedantic hair splitters will descend to make perfectly accurate statements is really beyond reason.

  35. 35
    ThymeZone says:

    I wish my faith in the intelligence of the American electorate was as strong as yours.

    Well, the question is whether America can elect a black president. The stink over Wright is about believing “We can, but it has to be a black person who isn’t really black, doesn’t have any of that black taint.”

    There is no way to parse the Wright thing without going there. This is not a dustup that a white candidate has to deal with, otherwise why isn’t McCain being called out on Hagee, a much crazier and more evil motherfucker than a hundred Wrights could ever be?

    I happen to think that yes, America can do this. It isn’t that hard, and Obama is the guy who can make it happen.

    I for one am not willing to throw in the towel the first time they try this shit on us. I have confidence in the general ability of the voters to make a good choice, and in the ability of Obama to stay on track even while they try to derail him.

    It annoys me really to see people around here talking for two years about Dem Courage, and then get ready to fold the tent the first they see some actual Dem courage.

    You want real courage? Okay, this is what it looks like. Nut up, and let’s go after McCain. I think we win.

  36. 36
    demkat620 says:

    John,

    What’s going on here is terror, pure and simple. For years we have heard conservatives state that they wanted to see a democratic politician admit justifiable anger over affirmative action, forced busing, and fraudulent calls of racism. He did that. Now they are scared they’ve got nothing left. If they can’t hit him on that, they don’t have alot to hit him with.

    He’s ten steps ahead of everybody else.

  37. 37
    dbrown says:

    Just remember this about McQ – “Stupid is as stupid does … no wait, that is God damn bush running America … the pastor just forgot to add ‘bush’ between God damn and America and he had it right.

  38. 38
    Billy K says:

    MUPdust has a funny side effect. For every 10,000 who become enlightened and transcendent, it drives one previously intelligent and thoughtful person batshit insane.

    That’s the only explanation I can come up with for p.luk and lowiq – two fellas who were previously rather smart, and in lowiq’s case, even funny.

  39. 39
    Jamey says:

    Turned off by that.

    Yes, like McQ even waited for the speech to start before judging it. . .

  40. 40
    libarbarian says:

    McQ can’t be that stupid. He really can’t.

    Short Answer: Yes, he can.

    Long Answer: Its not about “stupid”. It’s about having a deeply preconceived notion that colors how you interpret even the most mundane details.

    Prof. Cole, we both know, from our own experiences in the semi-cult of conservatism, that a lot of these guys START with the premise that liberals are really Socialists who are lying about their beliefs and then proceed to see evidence of this every place they look.

    Obama could wipe his nose and they would see evidence of socialism – and every associated problem from atheism to black radicalism – in the act.

  41. 41
    ThymeZone says:

    Obama could wipe his nose

    Actually, he took out a hankerchief about a month ago during a televised speech and did just that, when he had a cold. The guy is not afraid to just go out and be real.

    Let the hyenas howl. I think the louder they howl, and the more he calmly talks about it, the better we do.

  42. 42
    Jake says:

    If they can’t hit him on that, they don’t have a lot to hit him with.

    Forecast calls for a build up in frustration because they can’t call a spade a spade abd increased whining about political correctness. Later in the election cycle, watch for increased “slips of the tounge” followed by disingenuous apologies and comments about how touchy and humorless “some people” can be.

  43. 43
    libarbarian says:

    Plus, Its been clear now that knee-jerk anti-‘socialism’ is the only thing holding the coalition between business and social conservatives together.

    Their coalition is fracturing and there are serious gaps between the business and social cons on a whole host of issues. The ONE thing that they can really rally round together is mutual dislike of socialists. Given the distaste the base has for McCain, its natural that the GOP leaders wont want to take their support for granted.

    Remember – the GOP wins by getting their base to vote in much larger numbers than the general population. Its one thing for them to say “Ok, I’ll get behind McCain.” but another to actually have large numbers of the base get off their butts on election day to vote for a candidate they are obviously less that enthusiastic about.

    Consequently, they are going to try and help achieve a large turnout by convincing their base that Obama is a raving socialist who will destroy all that makes this country great, hoping that they will motivate to vote out of fear of the socialist if not out of love for McCain or his agenda.

  44. 44
    Laertes says:

    Over on Yglesias’ blog, some commenter wrote that Hillary is Saliari and Obama is Mozart.

    The more I think about that, the better it fits.

    To understand that analogy, you have to understand that Salieri was good. Not great, not a genius for the ages, not a composer who’d be remembered today except by a handful of specialists, but good. A perfectly competent practitioner of his art who could easily have been mistaken for a genius by his contemporaries.

    He only started to look shabby when Mozart rolled up on him. That was a bit of rotten luck. Salieri, like Hillary Clinton and Charles Barkley and Mark Antony, happened to peak just as a once-in-a-century genius emerged, robbing them of the glory that would otherwise surely have been theirs.

    That’s gotta sting.

  45. 45
    Otto Man says:

    Man, November is going to hurt like a bitch for these idiots.

  46. 46
    Xenos says:

    Well, the question is whether America can elect a black president. The stink over Wright is about believing “We can, but it has to be a black person who isn’t really black, doesn’t have any of that black taint.”

    There is no way to parse the Wright thing without going there. This is not a dustup that a white candidate has to deal with, otherwise why isn’t McCain being called out on Hagee, a much crazier and more evil motherfucker than a hundred Wrights could ever be?

    Just wait. There is no need to be in a hurry with Hagee. He is not going anywhere, and neither is McCain.

    After ignoring McCain for the last 7 years, I am astonished at how mediocre he is. We are undergoing a dramatic shift from baby-boomer to post-baby-boomer politics, and McCain, who was born in 1936, is still railing against the DFHs. Against Obama, it will be like McCain brought a knife to a gunfight. No, make that an Acheulean hand-axe to a gunfight.

    Let’s be charitable – since he is from Arizona, make that a Clovis point.

  47. 47
    Otto Man says:

    On Hardball, Tweety’s brother-in-law, conservative talk-show host Michael Smirkonish, who lives in PA, said it was a good speech and it answered a lot of questions.

    And Tweety himself proclaimed it one of the greatest speeches in American history.

  48. 48
    ThymeZone says:

    since he is from Arizona, make that a Clovis point.

    Good one. Since I am here in Phoenix, I strongly wish that McCain becomes the second Arizona-based GOP candidate in my lifetime to get less than 40% of the popular vote total this November. And I think he can beat that number easily, I have him at 35% or less. I want Arizona to maintain its streak of dismal failure in presidential politics.

  49. 49
    Z says:

    It isn’t just the stupid gotcha crap. Some of these people honestly didn’t get Obama’s speech. They think that talk about racial unity is pandering and flowery deception, because they are still stuck in the 60’s and don’t actually think that black and white people can REALLY get along. They fail to recognize that a couple of generations, now, have moved past their hang ups.

  50. 50
    AkaDad says:

    And Tweety himself proclaimed it one of the greatest speeches in American history.

    I bet it gave him a funny feeling running up and down his leg.

  51. 51
    Martin says:

    MUP won’t touch Hagee and he really shouldn’t anyway. McCain should spend September to November answering the following question to the full satisfaction of the GOP voters:

    “I think voters should know which of John Kerry’s positions, who you approached in 2004 to be his Vice President, that you are now flip-flopping on: abortion rights, withdrawal from Iraq, path to immigration, etc.”

    You just can’t fairly twist the knife enough times on the guy.

  52. 52
    Davebo says:

    Partisan blindness. McQ is so blinded by his hatred of Obama, that he’s willing to believe anything to justify this hatred.

    Actually a combination of partisan blindness and sheer terror.

    If McQ really wants to see Obama go down to electoral defeat he should be trying to convince Henke to go to work for the Obama campaign.

    That dude is the political kiss of death.

  53. 53
    ThymeZone says:

    MUP won’t touch Hagee and he really shouldn’t anyway.

    He doesn’t have to. Somebody will. Hagee is a train wreck.

  54. 54
    The Other Steve says:

    I went to msnbc.com just now, and the headline is Arthur C. Clarke has died.

    I was actually very shocked, as I didn’t realize he was still living. It’s like when Sir Alec Guinness died years after I thought he had.

  55. 55
    ThymeZone says:

    Personally, I am starting to think that the whole Wright kerfuffle was ginned up to go preemptive on religious guilt by association, to deflect from Hagee.

    I think it will backfire. Obama is not easily rattled. The man stays focussed and has the high ground. That’s how you win.

  56. 56
    p.lukasiak says:

    This is not a lie, it was the polar opposite- it was complete honesty.

    One was a truth, the other a half-truth.

    this was the half truth

    The statements that Rev. Wright made that are the cause of this controversy were not statements I personally heard him preach while I sat in the pews of Trinity or heard him utter in private conversation.

    its designed to do two things —

    1) make people think that Obama never heard Wright say anything objectionable.
    2) make people think that Obama was unaware of the specific statements that caused a controvery.

    The Obama campaign has been trying to hide from Obama’s association with Wright from the very beginning of this campaign — they disinvited Wright from Obama’s presidential announcement, then lied about the reason why Wright hadn’t been there (although he’d been scheduled to give an invocation of some sort.)

    So when the Wright thing finally got noticed by the media, Obama tried to wait it out with his “I wasn’t in the pews when he said certain specific statements” schtick. That didn’t work, which is why he suddenly has to do a “major” speech on race.

    You know what — this is the kind of speech he should have given when the whole South Carolina race thing blew up. But Obama was more than happen to let Clinton twist slowly in the wind based on deliberately false interpretations of her and her husband’s statements.

    Suddenly, when Obama’s relationship with a radical minister and his 20 year affiliation with a “black centric” church gets noticed, Obama suddenly decides its time to make his big statement on racial issues — after spending a year campaigning on the theme that race didn’t matter.

    So, if you wonder why some of us are not terribly impressed with what Obama did today, its because it was all about damage control.

  57. 57
    Xenos says:

    We will get to see damage control Clinton-style when they release their tax returns. If they ever do.

    Let’s just spare everybody that spectacle, shall we?

  58. 58
    Laertes says:

    I fucking called it.

  59. 59
    Temple Stark says:

    People, like me, rarely watch the pundits on TV and do make up their minds on their own. Try it sometime or don’t accuse others.

    My take on the speech is in the comments here, as a corollary to a post I wrote about it. I wanted to keep the two separate.

    It is also simplistic to say right-wingers sound like Hillary supporters. It’s just dumb, In that they both want to beat Obama, that’s true, and little else.

    The logic completely fails for most when countless people say “Well Republicans are never criticized for their pastors / religious links.” One, that’s simply not true – Democrats criticize it all the time. Two, this seems to say that Obama gets off without criticism for his links to a pastor, and everyone is going out of their way to minimize Wright’s comments in a way they absolutely would not do for Republican “America-hating, bigoted pastors.”

    That’s inconsistent.

    Neither Wright nor Falwell, for example (and Falwell has done much less to help anyone but himself) seems to adhere, in words to basic Christian tenets.

    I do think it’s funny that the logical disconnect is wide open: Obama is brave – self-described in his speech today – for not completely dismissing the man, while most Democrats have demanded much more distance for the Republican side. how many times have we snorted in disgust when Bush stood by any of his idiot cronies out of loyalty and we just looked aghast that he would do so while it was characterized as a positive for Bush.

    Has Obama addressed it much more effectively than Republicans? Yes, that’s because the relationship IS different and we expect more from Democrats.

    Temple

  60. 60

    Did you see his UPDATE response to you?

    What a pussy.

    He can’t deal with the fact that he’s confusing two different things. And that’s supposed to be YOUR problem?

    So now we know that McQ is another disposable human being. It’s not like we’re running out of people, and no one needs a dipshit like that.
    .

  61. 61
    4tehlulz says:

    OT: BAWWWWWWWW (no, really)

    Writer Arthur C. Clarke dies at 90

  62. 62
    ThymeZone says:

    I tell ya, every day that goes by, I am more and more amazed by the complete intellectual meltdown and collapse of lukasiak and myiq. Really, guys, you are just completely out of it. Your commentary here has passed the spoof test and now is into the realm of farce.

    I am dead serious, you are embarassing yourselves. You just have no clue whatever what is going on here.

  63. 63
    p.lukasiak says:

    I fucking called it.

    good for you. Now, tell me if you think that Obama was aware of the “controversial statements” that he didn’t hear while “sitting in a pew”.

  64. 64
    Mike B. says:

    As for Hillary supporters sounding like rabid wingnutters, I submit the post-speech evidence of Taylor Marsh:

    “The inevitable surfacing of Reverend Wright’s vitriolic sermons and the fact that Barack Obama was present to hear them opens up questions about the candidate he hasn’t begun to answer. And what kind of man throws his “white grandmother” at us in such a way?”

  65. 65
    p.lukasiak says:

    I tell ya, every day that goes by, I am more and more amazed by the complete intellectual meltdown and collapse of lukasiak and myiq. Really, guys, you are just completely out of it. Your commentary here has passed the spoof test and now is into the realm of farce.

    I’ll ask you the same question, TZ.

    Do you think that Obama was aware of the “controversial statements” that he didn’t hear while “sitting in a pew”.

  66. 66
    The Populist says:

    Do you think that Obama was aware of the “controversial statements” that he didn’t hear while “sitting in a pew”.

    He admitted he heard some negative comments over 20 years.

    What I wish people in this country of ours would do is USE this wonderful thing called the Internet and look UP the man’s voting record, his past quotes and then tell me he’s a hatemonger or an adherent to Wright’s “message.”

  67. 67
    JL says:

    Many years ago, I sat in many a pew and listened to sermons that I didn’t agree with. I also listened to sermons that I did agree with. Pastor Wright should not be the issue here. We should all focus on who we think can correct the wrongs of the last seven years.

  68. 68
    The Populist says:

    “The inevitable surfacing of Reverend Wright’s vitriolic sermons and the fact that Barack Obama was present to hear them opens up questions about the candidate he hasn’t begun to answer. And what kind of man throws his “white grandmother” at us in such a way?”

    A man who is trying to use juxtaposition to sell his point. I also submit to Taylor Marsh that the fact that Obama hears negative comments YET does everything he can to help all Americans shows the man he truly is, a leader.

    To lead one has to hear and vet all kinds of nonsense and opinion in order to come up with solutions and ideas.

  69. 69
    Jay B. says:

    “Well Republicans are never criticized for their pastors / religious links.” One, that’s simply not true – Democrats criticize it all the time.

    Right, which is why McCain felt compelled to make a major speech about his fawning relationship with a guy who has an anti-christ fixation on Catholics and is hoping the Jews all die soon so he can get on with the Rapture.

    Oh wait, that didn’t happen? Maybe the point is that the expectations are disproportionate between what the GOP does and is expected to apologize for, and what the Democrats are. It’s called a ‘double standard’.

    Two, this seems to say that Obama gets off without criticism for his links to a pastor, and everyone is going out of their way to minimize Wright’s comments in a way they absolutely would not do for Republican “America-hating, bigoted pastors.

    What did Wright say?

    • That this is the United States of white America;

    Oh heavens! What an awful thing…Wait. It’s not? I mean it’s true, we finally elected the second black governor since Reconstruction, so racism is way over. So it’s paradise for black folk.

    • endorsements of avowed racist Louis Farrakhan;

    Obama’s already denounced, rejected and renounced that. Everyone’s already weighed in on Farrakhan. They don’t like him.

    • That the government created the AIDs epidemic and transported it to Africa;

    That sounds ludicrous. But would it be impossible to believe that the US Government doesn’t always have people’s best interests in mind? See: Tuskeegee

    • that the U.S. was responsible for the 9/11 attacks

    And my buddy thinks the same thing. Should I renounce our friendship?

    • and “God damn America” for its treatment of young black males

    I don’t even see this as being controversial. I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but for A LONG FUCKING TIME blacks have gotten the short end of the stick from the government. Maybe check out the difference between white and black drug sentencing. Start there.

    Aren’t these a little different than saying God killed people because of their wickedness?

  70. 70
    ThymeZone says:

    Do you think that Obama was aware of the “controversial statements” that he didn’t hear while “sitting in a pew”.

    Don’t care. Im not electing his church or his pastor to anything. The thing that counts is that he has an opportunity to use the event to spotlight his very rational views on race, on minority politics in general, on what America is actually about, and he took that opportunity and made the most of it. I think that works for him in the long run.

    As for pews and controversy, like I said the other day, nobody who pimps for the fucking idiot who gave us the Rose Law Firm Billing Records problem is going to lecture me about such ridiculous bullshit as who was in a pew and who wasn’t. You don’t have standing here for that, Paul. You REALLY want to engage me on ethics and who struck John scenarios while you represent those shitbag Clintons here?
    Really?

    Bring it, Paul. Seriously, bring it.

  71. 71
    El Cid says:

    Were these idiots listening when Obama mentioned that his Church had both soaring inspiration and shocking ignorance???

    Or, is “shocking ignorance” some sort of compliment?

    Or does he have to condemn his own church and its pastor and its congregation as essentially the Khmer Rouge, as opposed to McCain’s backers who actively call to kill Muslims and Arabs around the world?

  72. 72
    The Populist says:

    Many years ago, I sat in many a pew and listened to sermons that I didn’t agree with. I also listened to sermons that I did agree with. Pastor Wright should not be the issue here. We should all focus on who we think can correct the wrongs of the last seven years.

    Amen brother. Pat Robertson gets a national spotlight in which to spew his nonsense yet Republicans FLOCK to get his support. I see no difference.

  73. 73
    JL says:

    Is it possible that after 7 years of Bush and his inability to deliver a speech, the right wing cannot recognize what an orator sounds like.

  74. 74
    myiq2xu says:

    Some of these people honestly didn’t get Obama’s speech. They think that talk about racial unity is pandering and flowery deception, because they are still stuck in the 60’s and don’t actually think that black and white people can REALLY get along. They fail to recognize that a couple of generations, now, have moved past their hang ups.

    Hmmmm?:

    In recent weeks, every one of us has been made aware of a simple truth — white Americans and black Americans often see the same world in drastically different ways — ways that go beyond and beneath the Simpson trial and its aftermath, which brought these perceptions so starkly into the open.

    The rift we see before us that is tearing at the heart of America exists in spite of the remarkable progress black Americans have made in the last generation, since Martin Luther King swept America up in his dream, and President Johnson spoke so powerfully for the dignity of man and the destiny of democracy in demanding that Congress guarantee full voting rights to blacks. The rift between blacks and whites exists still in a very special way in America, in spite of the fact that we have become much more racially and ethnically diverse, and that Hispanic Americans — themselves no strangers to discrimination — are now almost 10 percent of our national population.

    The reasons for this divide are many. Some are rooted in the awful history and stubborn persistence of racism. Some are rooted in the different ways we experience the threats of modern life to personal security, family values, and strong communities. Some are rooted in the fact that we still haven’t learned to talk frankly, to listen carefully, and to work together across racial lines.

    Only Obama could give that kind of speech. Riiiiight.

  75. 75
    John Cole says:

    You know what? I don;t give a shit what Lukasiak and the others say.

    What I witnessed today was a candid discussion of race, a firm demonstration that people can and do have different opinions on the subject without being racist, and was treated like an adult by a politician.

    Lukasiak and MyIQ can spin and sputter and contort themselves into pretzels all they want until they sound exactly like the Free Republic, and then they can go to taylor Marsh and Hillary is 44 for their “fair and balanced” reports from Fox News.

    I know what I saw. No amount of their bullshit changes that.

  76. 76
    myiq2xu says:

    More:

    Let us pray that those who have spoken for hatred and division in the past will turn away from that past and give voice to the true message of those ordinary Americans who march. If that happens — (applause) — if that happens, the men and the women who are there with them will be marching into better lives for themselves and their families. And they could be marching into a better future for America. (Applause.)

    Today we face a choice — one way leads to further separation and bitterness and more lost futures. The other way, the path of courage and wisdom, leads to unity, to reconciliation, to a rich opportunity for all Americans to make the most of the lives God gave them. This moment in which the racial divide is so clearly out in the open need not be a setback for us. It presents us with a great opportunity, and we dare not let it pass us by. (Applause.)

    In the past when we’ve had the courage to face the truth about our failure to live up to our own best ideals, we’ve grown stronger, moved forward and restored proud American optimism. At such turning points America moved to preserve the union and abolished slavery; to embrace women’s suffrage; to guarantee basic legal rights to America without regard to race, under the leadership of President Johnson. At each of these moments, we looked in the national mirror and were brave enough to say, this is not who we are; we’re better than that.

  77. 77
    Temple Stark says:

    It’s easy to dismiss the extremes. Sure go ahead and link to Hillaryis44 and call it representative of all Hillary Supporters. I think it’s called doing a Malkin.

    Sure call the stupid stupid but don’t engage with those who just merely disagree. Talking to someone who agrees with you is just like talking to yourself. I don’t see anyone here, especially in this thread having changed or become more thoughtful or learned from Obama’s speech and its message at all.

    Temple

  78. 78
    Jen says:

    I just saw on one of my iTunes downloads that Elton John is singing for Hillary…? Does anyone else find Hillary’s transmogrification into campy drag icon disconcerting?

  79. 79
    myiq2xu says:

    Pretzel logic:

    The two worlds we see now each contain both truth and distortion. Both black and white Americans must face this, for honesty is the only gateway to the many acts of reconciliation that will unite our worlds at last into one America.

    White America must understand and acknowledge the roots of black pain. It began with unequal treatment first in law and later in fact. African Americans indeed have lived too long with a justice system that in too many cases has been and continues to be less than just. (Applause.) The record of abuses extends from lynchings and trumped up charges to false arrests and police brutality. The tragedies of Emmett Till and Rodney King are bloody markers on the very same road.

    Still today too many of our police officers play by the rules of the bad old days. It is beyond wrong when law-abiding black parents have to tell their law-abiding children to fear the police whose salaries are paid by their own taxes. (Applause.)

    And blacks are right to think something is terribly wrong when African American men are many times more likely to be victims of homicide than any other group in this country; when there are more African American men in our corrections system than in our colleges; when almost one in three African American men in their 20s are either in jail, on parole or otherwise under the supervision of the criminal justice system — nearly one in three. And that is a disproportionate percentage in comparison to the percentage of blacks who use drugs in our society. Now, I would like every white person here and in America to take a moment to think how he or she would feel if one in three white men were in similar circumstances.

    And there is still unacceptable economic disparity between blacks and whites. It is so fashionable to talk today about African Americans as if they have been some sort of protected class. Many whites think blacks are getting more than their fair share in terms of jobs and promotions. That is not true. That is not true. (Applause.)

    The truth is that African Americans still make on average about 60 percent of what white people do; that more than half of African American children live in poverty. And at the very time our young Americans need access to college more than ever before, black college enrollment is dropping in America.

    On the other hand, blacks must understand and acknowledge the roots of white fear in America. There is a legitimate fear of the violence that is too prevalent in our urban areas; and often by experience or at least what people see on the news at night, violence for those white people too often has a black face.

    It isn’t racist for a parent to pull his or her child close when walking through a high-crime neighborhood, or to wish to stay away from neighborhoods where innocent children can be shot in school or standing at bus stops by thugs driving by with assault weapons or toting handguns like old west desperados.

  80. 80
    The Populist says:

    I ask should I stop hanging out with my older white friends and colleagues because they don’t trust or particularly like black people? I don’t AGREE with them, but they are good, yet misguided people. They aren’t RACISTS, just that they buy into stereotypes.

    I have a few black friends who grew up in poor conditions who gripe to me all the time about how f-d the world is to them YET they are my friends…should I abandon them because they have issues with certain portions of WHITE America?

    This idea that he should abandon his friend and spiritual guide is ludicrous. I don’t judge them any more than they judge me. Does it bother me, as a white man, that some blacks look at me with suspicion? No. I can only live my life and be the best I can be and HOPE they see me as somebody who can be trusted and liked. If not, so be it.

    Same with whites. I can’t change the minds of those who judge by stereotypes. Seems to me many who were born in the 50s and before have issues and we can’t force them to think otherwise. All we can do is change things and HOPE they figure it out. If not, so be it and we move on with progress (hopefully).

  81. 81
    myiq2xu says:

    Sure go ahead and link to Hillaryis44 and call it representative of all Hillary Supporters. I think it’s called doing a Malkin nutpicking.

    Fixt

  82. 82
    The Populist says:

    Lukasiak and MyIQ can spin and sputter and contort themselves into pretzels all they want until they sound exactly like the Free Republic, and then they can go to taylor Marsh and Hillary is 44 for their “fair and balanced” reports from Fox News.

    Goes back to my previous post. To be so worked up over such nonsense proves that ideology trumps fairness. Do I judge these folks? Nah. I bet they judge me though.

  83. 83
    Laertes says:

    That’s actually pretty good stuff, myiq. Better than I’d have imagined Hillary was capable of. The language isn’t quite as clear and forceful as Obama’s writing. It still has a whiff that ostentatious latinized drone that lulls the ear to sleep, but it’s good, I have to admit.

    Salieri at his best wasn’t bad either.

  84. 84
    ThymeZone says:

    Pretzel logic:

    Um, posting bullshit 23 hours a day for two months and then posting somebody else’s intelligent thoughts doesn’t make you look intelligent, man. It makes you look like a blogwhore, an opportunist who treats rational speech as just another prop in your arsenal of horse manure.

    When your candidate has a lifelong history of lying and spinning and triangulating and making self-serving speeches about “the dog ate my homework and I couldn’t make the right war vote” and “I was the only candidate wise enough to leave my name on the ballot in Michigan,” you don’t get to sit here and act like you have the high ground.

    You are at the bottom of a hole, no amount of fill dirt from your archives is going to get you out of it.

  85. 85
    Charlie says:

    McQ is willfully obtuse. There is a difference between hearing offensive things and hearing the specific things McQ is obsessing about. Since Obama was in Miami on one of the occasions McQ is lathering about, he could not possible have heard it. QED: There is a difference between hearing offensive things and hearing the specific things McQ is obsessing about.

  86. 86
    Bubblegum Tate says:

    Are we absolutely, positively sure that McQ isn’t a character written by DougJ?

  87. 87
    Zuzu says:

    No, he really is that stupid. I’ve seen him play the “I was in the military, therefore I’m an expert on all thing ___ ” many times when he couldn’t make an honest point.

  88. 88
    Temple Stark says:

    Oh wait, that didn’t happen? Maybe the point is that the expectations are disproportionate between what the GOP does and is expected to apologize for, and what the Democrats are. It’s called a ‘double standard’.

    JayB that may be true but just look to whom these claims are directed; other Democrats who ALREADY AGREE with that double standard. It doesn’t make sense at all why Obama should be given a pass as that re-enforces the double standard. When Falwell says America deserves 9-11 it doesn’t seem to me to be better when Wright says it. Or when Wright seems to minimize or ignore the fact that women have been thought of as second-class citizens as well for a long time.

    Yet, arguably, none of the people Falwell endorses or supports are as bad as he is or agree with everything he says.

    I don’t think of this in terms mostly of religion by the way; this is an issue because of political statements made.

    – Temple

  89. 89
    ThymeZone says:

    sure that McQ isn’t a character written by DougJ?

    Or vice versa! The DougJ mystery is deep, and wide.

  90. 90
    libarbarian says:

    Lukasiak and MyIQ can spin and sputter and contort themselves into pretzels all they want until they sound exactly like the Free Republic, and then they can go to taylor Marsh and Hillary is 44 for their “fair and balanced” reports from Fox News.

    We all know that these two, and every other person who is “outraged” by Obama’s refusal to sever all ties with Wright, have personal friends who have views that may be different from, but are every bit as misguided and repulsive as, Wrights.

    All this outrage and commotion requires that they not spend to much time thinking about the people in their own lives.

  91. 91
    Larv says:

    Now, tell me if you think that Obama was aware of the “controversial statements” that he didn’t hear while “sitting in a pew”.

    Has Obama actually denied being aware of them? I haven’t followed his every statement, so I’m actually curious.

  92. 92
    myiq2xu says:

    Has Obama actually denied being aware of them? I haven’t followed his every statement, so I’m actually curious.

    From the Chicago Sun-Times on March 15, 2008:

    “But the sermons I’ve always heard were no different than the sermons you hear in many African-American churches. I had not heard him make such, what I consider to be objectionable remarks from the pulpit. Had I heard them while I was in church, I would have objected. Had that been the tenor of the church generally, I probably wouldn’t be a member of the church.”

    On March 14, when Anderson Cooper asked Obama if he ever heard from others about Rev. Wright’s controverisal remarks, Obama replied with a flat “No.”

  93. 93
    p.lukasiak says:

    Don’t care. Im not electing his church or his pastor to anything.

    well, since that was at the core of the comment which you criticized (i.e. that Obama’s original statement was deliberately constructed to give the impression that he was unaware of the “controversial statements” to which John referred), I’m afraid that “don’t care” isn’t a very good answer.

    So, while I acknowledge that you “don’t care” whether Obama was aware of those “controversial statements” when he said he hadn’t heard them while sitting in a pew, I’d still like to know whether you think he was aware or not.

  94. 94
    myiq2xu says:

    We all know that these two, and every other person who is “outraged” by Obama’s refusal to sever all ties with Wright,

    Where have I expressed outrage “by Obama’s refusal to sever all ties with Wright?”

    If I’m so fucking annoying, why do people constantly feel the need to put words in my mouth to hate me for?

  95. 95
    Temple Stark says:

    myiq2xu, thank you for the links to President Clinton’s speech. The first time I was able to vote for a president was in 1992 and I distinctly remember deciding to finally vote for him because of the feeling that he would help race relations and injustice.

    I can’t remember exactly what made me think that, however. At that time, heck it may have just been because he went on Arsenio Hall. But that was the deciding factor for me to decide to vote for him.

    Temple, who finally got in sort of near the beginning of a discussion rather then the end.

  96. 96
    Zuzu says:

    Ahem, “an expert on all things ___ “

  97. 97
    John S. says:

    On March 14, when Anderson Cooper asked Obama if he ever heard from others about Rev. Wright’s controverisal remarks, Obama replied with a flat “No.”

    If only you could manage to get this hot and bothered over less trivial matters like giving the president the authority to invade other countries.

    And as always, it would be nice if you could learn how to link to the fucking information you are citing. It really isn’t that difficult.

  98. 98
    myiq2xu says:

    myiq2xu, thank you for the links to President Clinton’s speech. The first time I was able to vote for a president was in 1992 and I distinctly remember deciding to finally vote for him because of the feeling that he would help race relations and injustice.

    And people call me a troll because I defend the Clintons when they are falsely smeared as racists.

  99. 99
    myiq2xu says:

    And as always, it would be nice if you could learn how to link to the fucking information you are citing. It really isn’t that difficult.

    I linked to something earlier which you bashed without any factual basis.

    I’m still waiting for you to prove it wasn’t accurate.

  100. 100
    John S. says:

    Only Obama could give that kind of speech. Riiiiight.

    What the fuck does a speech that Bill Clinton gave have to do with anything??

    Bill Clinton is not running for president — his wife is.

    So what the fuck is your point? Honestly.

  101. 101
    John S. says:

    I’m still waiting for you to prove it wasn’t accurate.

    Refer back to the other thread, then.

    You are seemingly incapable of distinguishing fact from opinion.

  102. 102
    John S. says:

    I linked to something earlier which you bashed without any factual basis.

    Oh I see, the p.lukasiak defense again?

    I’m not going to waste my time because the trolls are going to be mean to me! Waaaaaaah!

    Grow up.

  103. 103
    Temple Stark says:

    John S., are you being deliberately obtuse (and profane)?

    Point 1) Obama’s speech – as good as it was – is not unprecedented in the modern political age.

    Point 2) The person making it then has been called racist and weighed down with all kinds of racist intent – this year.

    Temple

  104. 104
    myiq2xu says:

    John S. Says whines:

    myiq2xu drank my milkshake!

    It was very tasty!

  105. 105
    p.lukasiak says:

    We all know that these two, and every other person who is “outraged” by Obama’s refusal to sever all ties with Wright, have personal friends who have views that may be different from, but are every bit as misguided and repulsive as, Wrights.

    I know I’m not outraged by it. And as far as I know, myiq has never expressed any such outrage.

    Hell, I agree with Wright.

    The only thing that comes close to causing “outrage” in me is Obama’s attempt at the “golly, I knew he was bad, but I didn’t know he was that bad defense.” I don’t buy it.

  106. 106
    John S. says:

    Temple-

    No, I am not being obtuse though I am being profane.

    Point 1) Obama’s speech – as good as it was – is not unprecedented in the modern political age.

    Perhaps I missed where I said Obama’s speech was unprecedented. Oh right – I didn’t. And what does that have to do with Bill Clinton exactly? Right – nothing.

    Point 2) The person making it then has been called racist and weighed down with all kinds of racist intent – this year.

    Bill Clinton is not running for president, so who gives a shit? And by the way, a person is capable of giving a rousing speech on race ten years ago and making racist remarks this year. And that doesn’t make them a racist.

    Are you being deliberately obtuse, or do you support Hillary because you think that gets Bill back into the ‘oval office’ as it were?

  107. 107
    John S. says:
    John S. Says whines:

    myiq2xu drank my milkshake!

    It was very tasty!

    A six year old trapped in the body of a sixty year old.

    Fascinating.

  108. 108
    ThymeZone says:

    I’d still like to know whether you think he was aware or not.

    I don’t care, Paul. The question is asked and answered, and if you don’t like my answer, tough shit.

    You aren’t shaping this conversation. This isn’t about whether you think somebody was in a pew, it’s about what kind of politics we are going to have in this country.

    People like you want small, petty things to be what we focus on. I can’t conclude other than that you are a small and petty person, otherwise why would you waste your time on such bullshit? You pimp ehtical and intellectual whores and lecture other peoople about who sat in a pew?

    Fuck you, seriously. You’re a joke and a disgrace. You are doing nothing but spraying graffiti on this blog at this point. You have nothing useful to say, yet that doesn’t stop you from saying it over and over.

  109. 109
    Rarely Posts says:

    I imagine this will get me banned, but wtf. Has it ever been explained why Wright said Clinton rode black people dirty? And did Obama agree with that statement or not?

  110. 110
    John Cole says:

    I imagine this will get me banned, but wtf.

    Thanks for the bad faith, dick.

  111. 111
    myiq2xu says:

    Has it ever been explained why Wright said Clinton rode black people dirty?

    Strangely enough, especially considering it has gotten the least attention, I think that clip will bother “middle-class America” the most.

    Ministers are “supposed” to be sexually repressed in the Puritan tradition. The other clips raise concerns of racism or patriotism.

    And before TZ and the PC police attack me, I think Rev. Wright’s statements are no big deal.

    But I know other people will think differently, especially the wingers and fundies.

    I think Obama handled the whole thing badly. He should have gotten in front of this a long time ago.

  112. 112
    ed says:

    McQ gives blowhard pseudo-liberrtarian dumbasses a bad name.

  113. 113
    Rarely Posts says:

    Thanks for the bad faith, dick.

    I apologize. That was rude of me.

  114. 114
    Echo without Bunnies or Men says:

    Who gives a fuck what these wingnut losers think, they aren’t voting for the scary dark skinned man anyhow.

    They will pretend they are glad to vote for some geriatric feeble impotent old fuck who is obviously starting to slow down in his mental abilities.

  115. 115
    Rarely Posts says:

    Ministers are “supposed” to be sexually repressed in the Puritan tradition. The other clips raise concerns of racism or patriotism.

    I’m not concerned with the repression aspect of it. I’d like to know why he thought, if I’m reading his comment correctly, that Clinton used black people. Or betrayed them, or whatever he meant.

  116. 116
    Echo without Bunnies or Men says:

    ANd to add more rant, of all the fucking things this country should be worrying about, people are working up a frenzy about the heated remarks of some pastor? I am not black, but everything I heard Wright say was spot fucking on, that’s what really upsets limpdicks like Brit ‘My dead gay son’ Hume; they really hate it when someone who isn’t white speaks about these things.

    Fucking cracker motherfuckers, and this goes too for anyone who won’t vote for someone based on something some pastor said; you are a dumb shit times one billion if that is what influences your decision.

  117. 117
    Temple Stark says:

    John S, I’m sorry, I missed the part where myiq2xu first started publishing excerpts from the speech in response to you. I thought he quoted Martin @ 3:52. and responded to the points there, with excerpts from a speech that mattered.

    It’s just been real easy to impugn racist intent on Bill Clinton, because somehow that would be beneficial in a Democratic primary. Its easy so go ahead and keep on doing it if it makes you feel good.

    To answer your second point, I was an Edwards supporter first, for many of the same reasons. I thought his intelligence and exprience would make him a great “arguer in chief’ to get past the bullshit excuses for torture and FISA among other things.

    I support Hillary Clinton now because I believe she won’t care much what her worst detractors think and go ahead and “do this shit.” There’s a lot that needs to get done and I like her ideas for getting it done. A recent example (not the exclusive reason, but an example) is her speech on Monday where she said she would actively work to not only get troops out of Iraq BUT the military contractors, too. That means Blackwater. etc.

    She would answer her critics more with action and astound many of them with success. I think I’m allowed to support Hillary. I think.

    Most people don’t fit the caricature model – that’s why it’s called a caricature.

    Temple

  118. 118
    dbrown says:

    Hell, are there any black Americans reading this string of statements that appear mostly by whites? I would like an opinion from someone who has lived under true racist hate and Jim Crow laws (i.e over fifty) and watched a white cop call their father a N**** and laugh in their face and NOT agree with a sermon that points out that America is still a racist county (far better now but the wounds are still there and lets still speack some truth: who fills our prisons (% by race) and inner city ghetto’s and have the worst life expectancy and worst schools, health care, and homes in the worst areas so they have no wealth to hand down … ) – I am a white racist (sorry but the truth is the truth and I am not proud of it but I did grow up in that time and saw some of these things and learned to hate my country and my own attitudes about race but funny thing is, it stays with you – being a racist.)
    Relative to this Pastor – if you lived his life and lived through the racist hatred and discrimination and racial slurs that really cut day in and day out as America called itself a country of equals (ONLY if WASP), you might have very similar opinions.
    These people are judging like the privilege whites that grew up in a white world colored as if all had equal rights and believing that blacks don’t have a right to say much of what this man says is a God damn lie.

  119. 119
    myiq2xu says:

    I’m not concerned with the repression aspect of it. I’d like to know why he thought, if I’m reading his comment correctly, that Clinton used black people. Or betrayed them, or whatever he meant.

    I have no idea what he meant, especially since I didn’t see the whole speech. What’s the difference?

    It’s what Obama thinks that really matters.

  120. 120
    Pooh says:

    Myx, people call you a troll because you engage in nothing more than debate-camp sophistry. And you are, how to put this delicately, a dick, at least on the subject of HRC. Though I can’t recall you ever making the affirmative case for HRC beyond some platitudinous palaver about “experience”, gruel so thin that SINBAD can debunk it.

    Instead, you wave your hands about Kool-aid drinking and ‘unfair’ accusations of racism as if the fact that TZ swears a lot in this comment section is proof that Obama is unelectable and a fraud. Pardon me for not wasting my time ‘arguing things on the merits’ with some one who consistently and predictably does not engage in good faith discussion.

    Or I’m just a close-minded front-runner. But that still means that I can simply tell you to look at the scoreboard and STFU. You’re just like the fans of a team who whine when their team doesn’t get into the NCAA. Your squad has had plenty of games to demonstrate they belong, and they have failed to so demonstrate. Enjoy the NIT.

  121. 121
    ThymeZone says:

    About 150k people answered an MSNBC poll today, and almost exactly 2/3 of them said:

    He answered the tough questions and wasn’t afraid to be honest.
    Obama proved he is ready to lead and bridge the racial divide.

    But, we’re here and we have to listen to fucking myiq and lukasiak. 100k smart people out there and we are stuck with two people sharing one can of spray paint and a freeway sign.

  122. 122
    myiq2xu says:

    Who gives a fuck what these wingnut losers think, they aren’t voting for the scary dark skinned man anyhow.

    Years ago I heard it explained as a football analogy. Both sides have a rock-solid 40-45% of the field.

    It’s the 10-20% in the middle that decide elections.

    It doesn’t really matter what we think, or the freepers either. We’re already locked in.

  123. 123
    myiq2xu says:

    Myx, people call you a troll because you engage in nothing more than debate-camp sophistry. And you are, how to put this delicately, a dick, at least on the subject of HRC. Though I can’t recall you ever making the affirmative case for HRC beyond some platitudinous palaver about “experience”, gruel so thin that SINBAD can debunk it

    Oh gee, I don’t agree with you and won’t change my mind or STFU! Should we have a pity party for you?

    Show me where I argued that Hillary should be elected because of her experience?

    Nevermind, keep making shit up about me. It’s easier than dealing with reality.

    I’ve said repeatedly that HRC was my 5th choice, after Gore, Edwards, Dodd, and Biden. I started defending her from unfair and dishonest attacks while still supporting Edwards. For my troubles I was personally attacked and insulted by Obama supporters. This caused me to state a couple months ago that my biggest problem with Obama was his supporters.

    After a while I said fuck it and started firing back.

    BTW – TZ is intelligent and consistent. We disagree on one basic issue, which is which Democratic candidate is better than the other.

  124. 124
    Martin says:

    Logic test:

    Suddenly, when Obama’s relationship with a radical minister and his 20 year affiliation with a “black centric” church gets noticed, Obama suddenly decides its time to make his big statement on racial issues—after spending a year campaigning on the theme that race didn’t matter.

    The following statement is proposed as true: ‘Wright is a 20 year veteran of radical and racist sermons.’
    The following statement is known to be true: ‘Half of Obama’s relatives are white and he is half white.’

    Therefore, the only likely conclusion is that the person calling Wright a racist is projecting their own racial bias on Wright, who is not a racist at all. After all, who is better equipped to judge Wright: the half-white guy that sat in the pews for the better part of 20 years (and probably not very often since going to DC) or the white guy blogging about him after watching 30 seconds of video? So the blogger concludes that the half-white guy must be lying because he is also half-black.

    Seriously, every time I see ’20 years’ in a post it is clear that the poster is stretching 30 seconds to 20 years to make this whole thing fit his biases. Why don’t you make an account at the TUCC website and you can then listen to his other sermons. Until you get more than what Sean Hannity wants you to see, you need to STFU because it makes you look like a goddamn bigot.

  125. 125
    ThymeZone says:

    It doesn’t really matter what we think, or the freepers either. We’re already locked in.

    Wow, what an eloquent description of the American Experiment.

    Have you ever had an idea that was more noble than something you read off a beer can?

  126. 126
    myiq2xu says:

    But, we’re here and we have to listen to fucking myiq and lukasiak. 100k smart people out there and we are stuck with two people sharing one can of spray paint and a freeway sign.

    I agree completely!

  127. 127
    myiq2xu says:

    Have you ever had an idea that was more noble than something you read off a beer can?

    I won’t drink canned beer. God intended beer to be consumed from a brown bottle or in a glass direct from the tap.

    Would you drink Merlot from a Dixie cup?

  128. 128
    The Populist says:

    All this outrage and commotion requires that they not spend to much time thinking about the people in their own lives.

    Good post. I firmly believe that anybody who’s worked up over this most likely is being a hypocrite. If they are mad at Obama over this, then they had better look within and sever ties to those they disagree with.

    I bet they can’t and neither should Obama be held to this ridiculously high standard.

  129. 129
    The Populist says:

    Has it ever been explained why Wright said Clinton rode black people dirty?

    Just an observation but Clinton shifted right when the Newtie/DeLay Congress took over in the mid-90s. Because he did so, he signed off on legislation that did hurt the poor and most likely those folks in the community that Wright serves.

    I disagree as Clinton did what he could for black folks (I have never been a Clinton fan, btw) but here’s what everybody should say…We agree to disagree.

  130. 130
    myiq2xu says:

    I bet they can’t and neither should Obama be held to this ridiculously high standard.

    But he will be anyway. We’re Democrats.

    As Edward James Olmos says in Selena:

    “We have to be more Mexican than the Mexicans and more American than the Americans, both at the same time! It’s exhausting!

  131. 131
    myiq2xu says:

    John Murtha endorses Hillary

  132. 132
    ThymeZone says:

    Show me where I argued that Hillary should be elected because of her experience?

    Dude, you don’t get this, do you? Show us where you have argued that Hillary should be elected for any understandable reason? At all?

    Asked and asked to do so, have we anything from you but snark and funny jokes?

    Do you actually HAVE an argument, or are you just going to sit here every day and make farting noises all day?

  133. 133
    myiq2xu says:

    For my troubles I was personally attacked and insulted by Obama supporters.

    I should add: One of the earliest and most prolific poo-flingers is John S.

  134. 134
    myiq2xu says:

    Do you actually HAVE an argument, or are you just going to sit here every day and make farting noises all day?

    I agree with this too!

    TZ is da bomb!

  135. 135
    ThymeZone says:

    I agree with this too!

    That’s the ticket. When challenged, laugh, paw the ground with your foot, and pull out your pockets.

    All that’s missing is Gawrsh! and the voice of Goofy.

  136. 136
    Temple Stark says:

    This

    People like you want small, petty things to be what we focus on. I can’t conclude other than that you are a small and petty person, otherwise why would you waste your time on such bullshit? You pimp ehtical and intellectual whores and lecture other peoople about who sat in a pew?

    Fuck you, seriously. You’re a joke and a disgrace. You are doing nothing but spraying graffiti on this blog at this point.

    or

    TZ is intelligent and consistent.

    One of these is a pandering lie.

  137. 137
    ThymeZone says:

    TZ is intelligent and consistent. We disagree on one basic issue, which is which Democratic candidate is better than the other.

    Stop being nice to me. For one thing, at $20 a pop, I can’t afford it.

  138. 138
    myiq2xu says:

    One of these is a pandering lie.

    Survey says?

  139. 139
    Laertes says:

    About what I expected. Jackalopes everywhere. And the usual “spin an entire side thread out of a throwaway remark” bullshit.

    (Laertes’ law #47: A writer worth paying attention to engages his opponents on matters central to the point at hand, no matter how tempting a target some ill-considered peripheral remark may be.)

    So, when I pick through this mess, sifting through the trolling and the jackalopes and the static, looking for the actual meat of the issue I find…well, nothing.

    Deep breath.

    Obama has said, very clearly, that Wright often says some pretty extreme stuff, that pretty extreme stuff isn’t all that unusual in black churches, that he often disagrees with what Wright says, that he wasn’t familiar with the specific remarks that caused this little dust-up, and that those remarks were even nuttier than the usual Wright nuttiness, and aren’t a good representation of the spirit of that church.

    Is that a fair description of the state of play?

    I could really give a shit what some preacher said. Religion is crazy, and I expect religious leaders to say crazy shit about the same way I expect water to be wet.

    I’m only interested in what Obama has said. You people who think you’ve caught him in a lie, is there any way to support your claim on a good-faith reading of Obama’s various remarks? (Yes, I’m well aware that if you’re a goofball partisan and a black-belt at chop-logic you can find lies everywhere. I’m talking about real lies, not just soggy bullshit partisan talking-point lies.)

    Got anything? Or are we done here and it’s jackalopes all the way down?

  140. 140
    Temple Stark says:

    Martin Says: Logic test:

    Not actually logic, but good point. Timewise, is much more than 30 seconds of video, though. This black and white thing called race isn’t black and white. If you look into the good of Wright, there’s a lot there. Still, you HAVE to look at this and put the exact same situation on Hillary or McCain (well he’s got other problems) to really get where other people are coming from on this.

    People often make their voting decision on much less. (“I’d like to have a beer with him”)

    Temple

  141. 141
    scrutinizer says:

    RarelyPosts:

    ’m not concerned with the repression aspect of it. I’d like to know why he thought, if I’m reading his comment correctly, that Clinton used black people. Or betrayed them, or whatever he meant.

    I’d say signing the Welfare Reform Act is one example.

    p.luk:

    The only thing that comes close to causing “outrage” in me is Obama’s attempt at the “golly, I knew he was bad, but I didn’t know he was that bad defense.” I don’t buy it.

    Good, because that’s not what Obama said. Are you being deliberately obtuse?

    myiq:

    I’ve said repeatedly that HRC was my 5th choice, after Gore, Edwards, Dodd, and Biden. I started defending her from unfair and dishonest attacks while still supporting Edwards. For my troubles I was personally attacked and insulted by Obama supporters. This caused me to state a couple months ago that my biggest problem with Obama was his supporters.

    After a while I said fuck it and started firing back.

    BTW – TZ is intelligent and consistent. We disagree on one basic issue, which is which Democratic candidate is better than the other.

    Sounds to me like you aren’t a Clinton supporter at all—you’re just gaming Obama supporters. You certainly have never offered any serious rationale for why she’s the better candidate, despite repeated requests from many people . You’re not a stupid guy, myiq—you’re just playing games.

  142. 142
    myiq2xu says:

    Got anything? Or are we done here and it’s jackalopes all the way down?

    Hmmm.

    Rollin’ Rollin’ Rollin’

    Keep movin’, movin’, movin’,
    Though they’re disapprovin’,
    Keep them doggies movin’ Rawhide!
    Don’t try to understand ’em,
    Just rope and throw and grab ’em,
    Soon we’ll be living high and wide.
    Boy my heart’s calculatin’
    My true love will be waitin’, be waiting at the end of my ride.

    Move ’em on, head ’em up,
    Head ’em up, move ’em out,
    Move ’em on, head ’em out
    Rawhide!

    Set ’em out, ride ’em in
    Ride ’em in, let ’em out,
    Cut ’em out, ride ’em in
    Rawhide.

    Any more questions?

  143. 143
    ThymeZone says:

    Any more questions?

    Yeah, don’t you think it’s time you got cable?

  144. 144
    myiq2xu says:

    Sounds to me like you aren’t a Clinton supporter at all—-you’re just gaming Obama supporters. You certainly have never offered any serious rationale for why she’s the better candidate, despite repeated requests from many people . You’re not a stupid guy, myiq—-you’re just playing games.

    I tried having serious discussions. I got insulted and called names, “troll” being one of the nicer ones.

    People here don’t want to discuss or debate, they want to fight.

  145. 145
    myiq2xu says:

    Yeah, don’t you think it’s time you got cable?

    My television is reserved exclusively for serious purposes.

    IOW – Poorn.

  146. 146
    ThymeZone says:

    A little OT, but we need a break ….

    Are you all watching Keith? He makes McCain today’s Worst Person In the World for saying, more than once, while touring Iraq, that Iran is training Al Qaeda ….

    Meanwhile, Joe Lieberman leans in and whispers that Iran is training terrorists, but not Al Qaeda (Al Qaeda and Iran, oil and water?)

    McCain, “actually running for president … no wonder he wants 100 years in Iraq, it will take him that long to figure out what the HELL is going on there …” (Keith)

    Wonderful. And we are sitting here wondering if somebody sat in a pew, because we have to fear the scary McCain onslaught.

    Jesus H. Fuck.

  147. 147
    ThymeZone says:

    I got insulted and called names

    Um, a shipment of tiny violins has been dispatched to your Pity Parlor over there in Woeful Hills, CA.

    Really, you got insulted?

    I could come in here and say “hello” and somebody would tell me to go fuck myself. This is a food fight, man. Not a tea parlor.

  148. 148
    myiq2xu says:

    From TalkShit:

    Cheers to Sen. Chris Dodd for introducing S. 2627 this week. The bill would amend the Higher Education Act to end mandatory elimination of financial aid to students with drug convictions. Loss of financial aid would only occur if the state or federal judge sentencing the student orders aid suspension.

    I got a DUI, lost my job and went back to school. I ended up with a law degree.

    If I had been smoking weed in the park, I would have been SOL.

  149. 149
    myiq2xu says:

    I could come in here and say “hello” and somebody would tell me to go fuck myself. This is a food fight, man. Not a tea parlor.

    I agree. Now go fuck yourself.

  150. 150
    Shinobi says:

    John,
    You know QandO does have a filter so you can read only Jon’s posts right? Because I use it all the time to filter out McQ’s babble. I am 100% confident that he could never interpret any evidence that proved him completely wrong as anything other than proving that he was right. It’s interesting sometimes, but mostly it makes my brain hurt.

  151. 151
    ThymeZone says:

    I agree. Now go fuck yourself.

    Sigh.

    Okay.

  152. 152
    ThymeZone says:

    I ended up with a law degree.

    Damn, man, that sucks. That shouldn’t happen to anybody.

    We’re here for ya.

  153. 153
    Rarely Posts says:

    I’d say signing the Welfare Reform Act is one example.

    How do you see that as a bad thing…has it hurt poor people, and/or black people since that is who we are talking about. And if so, how exactly?

    And also, whatever its intent or consequence, was Clinton trying to help/hurt black people or poor people in general?

  154. 154
    myiq2xu says:

    Sigh.

    Okay.

    Well don’t expect me to do it for you.

    Not at the prices you pay.

  155. 155
    myiq2xu says:

    And also, whatever its intent or consequence, was Clinton trying to help/hurt black people or poor people in general?

    Bill Clinton did more to help black people than any Presidents except Lincoln and LBJ.

    Unfortunately, most of it was defensive in nature, because he was fighting to prevent the rollback of the Great Society and the Civil Rights Movement.

    So it doesn’t look like he accomplished anything.

  156. 156
    ThymeZone says:

    Well don’t expect me to do it for you.

    That won’t be a problem, I assure you!

  157. 157
    libarbarian says:

    The only thing that comes close to causing “outrage” in me is Obama’s attempt at the “golly, I knew he was bad, but I didn’t know he was that bad defense.” I don’t buy it.

    On March 14, when Anderson Cooper asked Obama if he ever heard from others about Rev. Wright’s controverisal remarks, Obama replied with a flat “No.”

    I dont “buy it” either. At best, Obama was being legalistic – honest according to a narrow reading of the language but not with regard to the broader intent of the question – which is something that politicians do a lot. Remember hearing discussions about the precise definition of “sexual relations” and exactly whose genitals had to be touched?

    At worst it was a lie, but I think its small potatoes compared to the lies that candidates routinely tell as well as some that have been told on this campaign. Compared to the list of Clinton’s statements I don’t buy, its small potatoes.

  158. 158
    libarbarian says:

    How could I use the same metaphor twice in a row and not catch it?

    Im getting old.

  159. 159
    myiq2xu says:

    From Melissa McEwan:

    I love this headline at the Wall Street Journal’s Washington Wire:

    Clinton Blames Economic Woes on Bush Administration

    The nerve of her! Doesn’t she know she’s supposed to blame it on her husband, like all the Republicans do…?

  160. 160
    The Populist says:

    How do you see that as a bad thing…has it hurt poor people, and/or black people since that is who we are talking about. And if so, how exactly?

    Obama did make reference to welfare in his speech. He feels it’s hurt the black community.

  161. 161
    libarbarian says:

    I think I speak for most Obama supporters when I say:

    “I never thought he was a saint, so catching him in a small lie about an unimportant subject in what could be a political minefield, doesn’t really shatter any of the illusions that you seem to think I suffer from”

  162. 162
    myiq2xu says:

    I dont “buy it” either. At best, Obama was being legalistic – honest according to a narrow reading of the language but not with regard to the broader intent of the question – which is something that politicians do a lot.

    If you keep accusing the MUP of being a politician the MUPpets will burn you at the stake.

    My take has always been that He’s not “different” or “special,” He’s just really good at it.

  163. 163
    myiq2xu says:

    I think I speak for most Obama supporters when I say:

    “I never thought he was a saint, so catching him in a small lie about an unimportant subject in what could be a political minefield, doesn’t really shatter any of the illusions that you seem to think I suffer from”

    Apostasy!

  164. 164
    John Cole says:

    If you keep accusing the MUP of being a politician the MUPpets will burn you at the stake.

    My take has always been that He’s not “different” or “special,” He’s just really good at it.

    You are lucky there is nothing in the Geneva convention about crimes committed against strawmen, because if there were, I would be personally forming the tribunal, and I would be seeking the death penalty.

    No on has fucking said Obama is not a politician. For christ sakes, someone running for President is assumed to be a politician.

  165. 165
    ding7777 says:

    How many ways to parse this one: “while I sat in the pews of Trinity ” –

    Obama heard the sermon but was standing.
    Obama heard the sermon but was sitting on a chair.
    Obama heard the taped version of the sermon.

    Stupid, indeed!

  166. 166
    myiq2xu says:

    No on has fucking said Obama is not a politician. For christ sakes, someone running for President is assumed to be a politician.

    Who was the first to make fun of the “magic unity pony?”

    The Saturday before last I was getting bashed (along with demi) for suggesting that Obama was an “insider.”

  167. 167
    myiq2xu says:

    1/10/08 I CAN HAS UNITY PONY:

    BTW, for fun, I have decided that I am going to compile a list of things that Obama supporters claim he has transcended. Off the top of my head, we have race and politics.

  168. 168
    myiq2xu says:

    Steve Benen:

    If Florida’s delegates to the Democratic National Convention aren’t seated, about 1.7 million voters who participated in the state’s primary will, in a way, be disenfranchised. If Florida’s delegates are seated, millions of Democrats who would have voted but didn’t because they’d been told in advance that their vote wouldn’t count, would also effectively be disenfranchised. (As the estimable Carl Hiaasen put it, “It’s like Major League Baseball waiting until midseason and then declaring that spring training games will count in the final standings.”) Either way, Democratic voters in one of the nation’s biggest states would be screwed. (emphasis added)

    One problem Steve-O: The primary was a record high turnout.

  169. 169
    myiq2xu says:

    What a coinky-dink! From TalkShit:

    A new St. Petersburg Times, Bay News 9 and Miami Herald poll finds one in four Florida Democrats may abandon the party if their Jan. 29 votes aren’t counted.

    Howard Dean and Barack Obama may insist Florida’s Democratic presidential primary was meaningless, but a new poll shows Florida Democrats aren’t buying it, and one in four may not back their party’s nominee in November if Florida winds up with no voice in the nomination.

    Twice as many Clinton supporters — 56 percent — want the Florida primary to count as do Obama supporters — 27 percent. Still, even among Obama supporters, the idea of counting that primary is slightly more popular than holding a new election or dividing Florida’s delegates evenly between the two candidates.

  170. 170
    Temple Stark says:

    Exposure to Balloon Juice leads to selective amnesia.
    Useful for learning or debate ≠ comment threads. But there are lurkers aka readers only.

    – temple

  171. 171
    myiq2xu says:

    So much for MUPpet talking points:

    The poll suggests most Florida Democrats viewed the Jan. 29 primary as a legitimate election.
    For instance, only 15 percent of those surveyed said their main interest in voting was the Amendment 1 tax reform initiative, while 43 percent said the Democratic primary was the big draw and 40 percent said both were equally important to them.

    Likewise, 56 percent of those surveyed said the lack of Florida campaigning by the major candidates had “no effect at all” and 16 percent said it had a “major effect” on their choices.

    I guess John S. ain’t the voice of Florida after all.

  172. 172
    myiq2xu says:

    Exposure to Balloon Juice leads to selective amnesia.
    Useful for learning or debate ≠ comment threads. But there are lurkers aka readers only.

    How do you get the “does not equal” sign?

    If you tell me I’ll let you have sex with TZ

    (He may object, but it will be okay with me)

  173. 173
    chopper says:

    Are you all watching Keith? He makes McCain today’s Worst Person In the World for saying, more than once, while touring Iraq, that Iran is training Al Qaeda ….

    Meanwhile, Joe Lieberman leans in and whispers that Iran is training terrorists, but not Al Qaeda (Al Qaeda and Iran, oil and water?)

    and clinton thinks that this fossil has ‘crossed the threshold’ vs obama, eh?

  174. 174
    HyperIon says:

    So, when I pick through this mess, sifting through the trolling and the jackalopes and the static, looking for the actual meat of the issue I find…well, nothing.

    that’s right. 100% nothing.
    sort of sad but…

  175. 175
    AkaDad says:

    The primary was a record high turnout.

    What does that have to do with people who stayed home because their vote wasn’t going to count?

  176. 176
    myiq2xu says:

    What does that have to do with people who stayed home because their vote wasn’t going to count?

    Who said the votes wouldn’t count? The elected officials in Florida? The unofficial bloviating gasbags?

  177. 177
    ThymeZone says:

    If you tell me I’ll let you have sex with TZ

    Uh, thanks but I sell those tickets myself, Mike.

  178. 178
    AkaDad says:

    Who said the votes wouldn’t count? The elected officials in Florida? The unofficial bloviating gasbags?

    Are you saying that the delegates not being seated wasn’t reported in the news?

  179. 179

    One problem Steve-O: The primary was a record high turnout.

    It should be noted that this does not mean that the turnout was as high as it would have been if it had been supposed to count. For instance, Florida’s primary has always been pretty late in the process, so the candidate has already been decided. That would tend to produce an artificially low turnout that this year’s primary turnout had to beat.

  180. 180
    Laertes says:

    I think he is. Explains a lot, really.

  181. 181
    yet another jeff says:

    Even if straw men were covered by the Geneva Convention, it doesn’t matter on account of the quaintness.

  182. 182
    John S. says:

    I guess John S. ain’t the voice of Florida after all.

    I never claimed to be. I’m just one of many. Although I find it funny that back then when I pointed out that most Floridians voted for Clinton becasue they were relatively clueless about Obama and you guffawed. And looky here!

    The poll suggests most Florida Democrats viewed the Jan. 29 primary as a legitimate election.

    Like I said – clueless.

    Of course, for all I know you just pulled this shit out of your ass along with all of your other ‘citations’ since you provided no reference.

  183. 183
    Laertes says:

    Once again, remember the rules of troll. You win if the troll is working harder at the conversation than you are, and you lose if you’re working harder.

  184. 184
    Dennis - SGMM says:

    The primary was a record high turnout.

    There was also a tax measure on the Florida ballot. Mayhap we should put a tax measure, even a trivial one, on every ballot.

    On another note, I finally heard Obama. Love him or hate him, that man knows how to give a speech.

  185. 185
    Temple Stark says:

    I’m on a Mac and I got ≠ by hitting, Option =

    I’m “reliably” informed – by Yahoo answers – that the Windows equivalent is Alt + 8800

    I give information in spite of your depravity. If I can find you on the Web anywhere, let me know.

    Temple

  186. 186
    John S. says:

    Ah, here’s the article that included the poll (gawsh, that was hard work making that link!)

    I’m not surprised myiq½xu and TalkLeft are all over the article since it has about as much intellectual integrity as they do, claiming:

    Likewise, 56 percent of those surveyed said the lack of Florida campaigning by the major candidates had “no effect at all” and 16 percent said it had a “major effect” on their choices.

    Except that the survey the article is based on didn’t really ask about that, but rather:

    How much of an effect would you say the major Democratic candidates pledging not to campaign in Florida had on your ability to make an informed choice?

    Notice the intentional phrasing of the question? It didn’t asked if the lack of campaigning itself affected their choice – it asked if the candidates pledging not to campaign affected their choice. Not that this stopped the article from making a supposition the survey didn’t actually address. And if you don’t think there is a difference between the two, you obviously haven’t taken any statistics courses and learned about polling bias.

  187. 187
    p.lukasiak says:

    It should be noted that this does not mean that the turnout was as high as it would have been if it had been supposed to count. For instance, Florida’s primary has always been pretty late in the process, so the candidate has already been decided. That would tend to produce an artificially low turnout that this year’s primary turnout had to beat.

    you can tell John S. has run out of his original supply of bullshit when he starts sounding like me.

  188. 188
    Temple Stark says:

    There are no trolls here. … Other suggestions I’ll keep to myself.

    Temple

  189. 189
    p.lukasiak says:

    What does that have to do with people who stayed home because their vote wasn’t going to count?

    oh, yeah. I remember now. The Obama campaign was out there telling its supporters not to go to the polls, and that is why Clinton won in Florida.

    People don’t go to the polls ‘because their votes won’t matter’ all the time — and their votes did matter because the proposition was on the ballot.

  190. 190

    […] So?  Does McQuain want to pretend that the statements "that are the cause of this controversy" are the only possible statements that Obama ever heard that Obama might have "considered controversial"?  Unless McQuain knows which statements Obama heard while sitting in church, and which he didn’t, he’s calling the man a liar based on nothing in evidence but McQuain’s own wishful projection.  In fact, McQuain’s sole evidence is:  "I can only believe".  I can only believe that McQuain ought to know better.  (And McQuain’s brushing off of John Cole on the matter with nothing but a cheesy ad hominem, doesn’t suddenly elevate McQuain’s utter dullness to enlightened or powerful discourse, either.) […]

  191. 191
    John S. says:

    I should add: One of the earliest and most prolific poo-flingers is John S.

    Because I had you pegged right from the start. When I said months ago that you were guilty of posting “unhinged diatribes” about Obama, you went on the defensive pretty fast.

    I think we can all see why.

    I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt for quite a while, but you are what you are. Own it.

  192. 192
    John S. says:

    you can tell John S. has run out of his original supply of bullshit when he starts sounding like me.

    You can tell when p.lukasiak is full of shit by…when he posts.

    By the way, the comment you attributed to me didn’t come from me – it came from J. Michael Neal.

  193. 193
    Ninerdave says:

    Moving back to the Wingnuts are idiots topic, someone needs to teach the Freeps about common and proper nouns (via Sadly, No!):

    Freep1:

    “We the people, in order to form a more perfect union…”

    That is NOT from the Declaration of Independence.

    That is the beginning of the Constitution…

    The would-be President does not know his American history.

    Obama says those words were from the Declaration of Independence in 1787…1

    GET IT RIGHT OBAMA!!!!!

    Freep 2:

    HEY OBAMA:

    Here are the opening words from our beautiful Declaration of Independence…

    When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bonds which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

    From the transcript:

    1 From transcript: “Farmers and scholars; statesmen and patriots who had traveled across an ocean to escape tyranny and persecution finally made real their declaration of independence at a Philadelphia convention that lasted through the spring of 1787.”

  194. 194
    Asti says:

    Yet, arguably, none of the people Falwell endorses or supports are as bad as he is or agree with everything he says.

    I got news for you Temple Stark, Falwell isn’t supporting anyone in this dog, pony and McClown show, the only thing he’s supporting is the top side of a casket. He’s DEAD!

    Well don’t expect me to do it for you.

    Don’t worry, he doesn’t. I’m the one who does it for him. ;)

  195. 195
    Asti says:

    If you tell me I’ll let you have sex with TZ

    I might have a problem with that.

  196. 196
    ThymeZone says:

    I might have a problem with that.

    Don’t worry, I won’t be consorting with MikeU.

    He only starts flirting with me when I am kicking him around the field like a soccer ball.

  197. 197
    Asti says:

    Don’t worry, I won’t be consorting with MikeU.

    Whew! k 547737 3339, 46 ;)

  198. 198
    ThymeZone says:

    At the end of the day, or at least this day, Clinton basically cannot win the Dem nomination. I agree with Markos at DKos that the myth of Clinton’s still having a chance in this race is basically a creature of the media’s desire to continue to have a race to talk about. Despite the fact that Clinton’s campaign position has always been that the press was “hostile” to her.

    I am quite ready to see an end to the useless thrashing around of this Dem primary season and to see the real contest, the against McCain, wherein Obama has a 16-point advantage over Clinton against McCain according to a poll I saw today, also via DKos.

    SurveyUSA. 2/26-2/28. Likely voters. MoE 4% (No trend lines)

    McCain 41
    Obama 50

    McCain 48
    Clinton 42

    Obama runs +9, and Clinton runs -6.

    At this point the Clintonfuckheads have us sitting beating our gums over a Dem contest that is actually …. over.

    Time to move on.

  199. 199
    tBone says:

    you can tell John S. has run out of his original supply of bullshit when he starts sounding like me.

    I gotta admit, that’s pretty funny. Especially the tacit admission that you have a large enough supply of bullshit to loan some to other people. +1 for self-awareness.

    However, it’s not as funny as myiq2 wailing and rending his garments about how meeeaaannn everybody’s being to him.

    I tried having serious discussions. I got insulted and called names, “troll” being one of the nicer ones.

    People here don’t want to discuss or debate, they want to fight.

    Classic. I must have missed all of those attempts at “serious discussions.”

  200. 200
    myiq2xu says:

    you can tell John S. has run out of his original supply of bullshit when he starts sounding like me.

    John S. loses another milkshake!

  201. 201
    ThymeZone says:

    Whew

    Sudoku! Kiss my ass, NSA bastards!

    363 5683

  202. 202
    myiq2xu says:

    Don’t worry, I won’t be consorting with MikeU.

    Damn straight! I was selling, not buying.

    Pimping ain’t easy.

  203. 203
    myiq2xu says:

    I might have a problem with that.

    It’s only until the mortgage is paid off.

  204. 204
    myiq2xu says:

    At this point the Clintonfuckheads have us sitting beating our gums over a Dem contest that is actually …. over.

    It ain’t over ’til it’s over.

  205. 205
    Martin says:

    I got insulted and called names, “troll” being one of the nicer ones.

    People here don’t want to discuss or debate, they want to fight.

    Gonna call you out on that again. I called you a troll when you said that 2 + 2 wasn’t 4. When I later backed you into a different corner, you called me a right wing troll and never addressed my point after 4 paragraphs.

    And for the record, I ungreasemonkeyed you because you crack me up when you aren’t being dishonest.

  206. 206
    ThymeZone says:

    Pimping ain’t easy.

    Sounds like something you got right off a Clinton campaign letter.

  207. 207
    myiq2xu says:

    tbone Says:

    Baa baa baaaa baaa myiq2 baa baa baaaa!

  208. 208
    ThymeZone says:

    It ain’t over ‘til it’s over.

    Not too original. And, futile.

    Got a winning scenario for Brunhildary?

  209. 209
    Asti says:

    Your price is too high NoIQ, I’m free!

  210. 210
    TenguPhule says:

    McQ can’t be that stupid. He really can’t. He was in the military for years and handled heavy weaponry, so I hope to God he really is not that stupid.

    And just think, the average quality of recruits has gone *DOWN* since then.

    Enjoy your nightmares.

  211. 211
    ThymeZone says:

    I think MikeU is having an identity crisis.

    Yesterday he wanted sex with Hillary, now he wants to switch teams?

  212. 212
    Asti says:

    I think MikeU is having an identity crisis.

    Yesterday he wanted sex with Hillary, now he wants to switch teams?

    Maybe I should introduce him to Roger ;)

  213. 213
    ThymeZone says:

    I guess MikeU is trying on his pimp hats.

    Or else we scared him off.

  214. 214
    Asti says:

    I think he finally realized he can’t corner this market.

  215. 215
    ThymeZone says:

    Maybe I should introduce him to Roger

    He’ll cop a buzz.

  216. 216
    Asti says:

    He’ll cop a buzz.

    Talked me into it ;)

    46

  217. 217
  218. 218

    […] And now, I will use this moment of national coming-together to help John Cole understand the world in which we live. Innocent as a babe newborn, he asks: McQ can’t be that stupid. He really can’t. He was in the military for years and handled heavy weaponry, so I hope to God he really is not that stupid. […]

  219. 219
    myiq2xu says:

    ThymeZone Says:

    46

    4592

    Have a good Thyme with “Nasty” Asti and Roger.

  220. 220
    Dennis - SGMM says:

    He was in the military for years and handled heavy weaponry, so I hope to God he really is not that stupid.

    You can teach the average twelve year old how to operate a Browning .50 cal machine gun, any rocket launcher, a 105 mm howitzer or a SAW (Squad Automatic Weapon) in less than thirty minutes. It isn’t the “how” it’s the “when” that defines their proper use.

  221. 221
    myiq2xu says:

    You can teach the average twelve year old how to operate a Browning .50 cal machine gun, any rocket launcher, a 105 mm howitzer or a SAW (Squad Automatic Weapon) in less than thirty minutes. It isn’t the “how” it’s the “when” that defines their proper use.

    The AK-47 was designed to be used by illiterate, poorly trained troops. Load, lock, point, spray.

    BTW – “Lock and load” is backwards, just like “shoes and socks.”

  222. 222
    Johnny Pez says:

    SurveyUSA. 2/26-2/28. Likely voters. MoE 4% (No trend lines)

    McCain 41
    Obama 50

    McCain 48
    Clinton 42

    Obama runs +9, and Clinton runs -6.

    Nitpick: this was for Colorado, not the whole country.

    Still . . . frickin’ Colorado, man!

  223. 223
    Dennis - SGMM says:

    The AK-47 was designed to be used by illiterate, poorly trained troops. Load, lock, point, spray.

    Having faced the AK-47 in actual combat, I have to say that it’s one of the most estimable weapons ever built. Simple, rugged, and with a built-in muzzle whip that guarantees that you’ll fire a pattern in full auto it is a paragon of battle rifles. The average eight year old can clean and maintain one.

  224. 224
    myiq2xu says:

    Having faced the AK-47 in actual combat, I have to say that it’s one of the most estimable weapons ever built. Simple, rugged, and with a built-in muzzle whip that guarantees that you’ll fire a pattern in full auto it is a paragon of battle rifles.

    Easy to manufacture in any semi-industrialized nation too.

  225. 225
    Dennis - SGMM says:

    Easy to manufacture in any semi-industrialized nation too.

    Damn straight. The only one easier to make is the Sten gun, which is sadly prone to overheating.

  226. 226
    myiq2xu says:

    Damn straight. The only one easier to make is the Sten gun, which is sadly prone to overheating.

    So we armed our boys with the M16 that jammed on a mote of dust. I got to train on the M16A1 with the handy-dandy “forward assist” that helped, but did not cure the problem.

    OTOH – The good old Colt .45 would fire consistently even if coated in mud. So we replaced it with that pretty boy Beretta.

  227. 227
    Dennis - SGMM says:

    So we armed our boys with the M16 that jammed on a mote of dust.

    The first time I ever tried to fire an M-16 (Camp Pendleton, Navy, long boring story) the son of a bitch jammed. So, when I was leaving the Annapolis Hotel in Saigon for my duty station in the Delta they tried to issue me an M-16. I refused to accept it. “But, it’s brand new,” the armorer said. “And it’s a piece of shit, manufactured by the Hydramatic division of GM,” I replied. “Ya’ got a .45?” I asked. And so I went to war with a gun that was adopted in 1911. When I arrived at my outfit in Binh Thuy they decided that I was the right size to carry the M60-A1. Kept the .45 even though it was so worn that the slide rattled. That son of a bitch could throw some lead and when I was lucky enough to hit someone with it they stayed down.

  228. 228

    When Bay Buchanon calls a Democrat a class act, somebody has done something. I’m not nearly as impressed by David Gergen applauding Obama’s speech, he’s always been a bit of an odd man out in conservative R politics, he thinks a bit too much. But Bay blew me away, that just is not her style.

    Somebody noted a politician spoke to Americans like they were adults, some are proving they’re not.

    I’m too left to be satisfied with either Dem and the 2nd A makes me real damn dissatisfied. Now I cut Hillary wide and deep, but I don’t use stuff like “as far as I know,” that’s just junk. I give a rat’s patoot myiq supports Clinton , when he makes a bad arguement, it’s bad; there have been a couple fairly good ones though. This messianic thinking on both sides is flat out stupid, Taylor Marsh proves that. I’ve never been all that impressed by her reasoning, but she’s gone right off the rails. I see the same damn thing on pro Obama sites, freaking loon stuff.

    Hillary carries a shit load of baggage, pretending she doesn’t is ridiculous, but Obama got some of his own. Now I propose Hillary’s shit is deeper and more offensive to me. I have no thought that Hillary is a closet racist, she is a political opportunist, demonstrably. Obama takes his advantages, I find them less offensive.

    If you say Whitewater or Travelgate certain segements go apeshit, foaming at the mouth right says, “Statan,” and stick up the butt left howls, “Saint,” meanwhile the actual truth, a bit smelly, gets left ignored. Obama knew what Wright was about, hell I don’t argue against his point balanced against Christ’s words, but it is politically damn inconvenient to go along with – publicly. Now if I’m a determinedly non-religious white nail banger from NE OR and I say that, the chances that Obama has actual real problems with it are pretty slim. That is a guess.

    Damn, John Cole says they’re politicians, no kidding they’re politicians, they’re politicians enough to flourish sufficiently in a deeply flawed system to be credible Presidential candidates. Oh well, there are going to be a bunch of hurt feelings, right now they seem to be concentrating in the Hillary camp. She has had some practice as ‘victim.’

  229. 229
    myiq2xu says:

    Kept the .45 even though it was so worn that the slide rattled.

    That’s called “broken in.” Carried one of those bad boys for three years (MP) and fired a few thousand rounds through them (3 different ones) on the range. No jams or misfires, but I do have a scar on my thumb where it got in the way of the slide recoil.

    If all else fails, hit ’em upside the head with it.

  230. 230
    Dennis - SGMM says:

    If all else fails, hit ‘em upside the head with it.

    LOL! I found that if you could smell the nuoc mam on their breath then they were in range. Have to make a confession though. When I started going further into the field I ditched the .45 for a Chinese knock-off of the Russian Tokarev. It was more compact, fired a 7.6-something round similar to a Luger. Despite having an estimated 2 1/2 pound trigger pull the little rascal could drive tacks out to about twenty-five yards. Threw it in the river just before I left.

  231. 231
    myiq2xu says:

    Now I cut Hillary wide and deep, but I don’t use stuff like “as far as I know,” that’s just junk. I give a rat’s patoot myiq supports Clinton , when he makes a bad arguement, it’s bad; there have been a couple fairly good ones though.

    I keep saying I’m not emotionally invested in Hillary. She was my 5th choice. I don’t see much difference between her and Obama, but I prefer her. I don’t think people are stupid or sexist for supporting Obama

    But when I see the same right-wing zombie lies from the nineties being thrown around it pisses me off. After the 10th or 20th time I see the same shit from alleged liberals/progressives, I tend to be a little less diplomatic.

    The personal attacks and name-calling piss me off too. I never considered them part of honest debate. I didn’t start them, and although sometimes I’m sure I lash out at the wrong person I’m not a pacificist. If we’re gonna use prison rules, that’s fine.

    I prefer calm, rational discourse, but I’m in it to win it.

  232. 232
    myiq2xu says:

    LOL! I found that if you could smell the nuoc mam on their breath then they were in range.

    I was lucky. I was too young for Big Muddy by about 3 years. Most of my NCO’s had been there though.

    I got to stare at East Germans across the 1 K zone for most of my time and I patroled NTC Ft. Irwin the rest.

  233. 233
    Rarely Posts says:

    What does that have to do with people who stayed home because their vote wasn’t going to count?

    A record turnout is a record turnout. Among my family, friends, and coworkers there is not one Democrat that did not vote in Florida’s primary.

  234. 234
    Rarely Posts says:

    Are you saying that the delegates not being seated wasn’t reported in the news?

    What was reported in the news is that the DNC was punishing Florida by not allowing the delegates to be seated. No one actually believed it. The Florida Democratic Party told us to vote no matter what the DNC said.

  235. 235
    DBrown says:

    Getting back to the main point of this thread, I am wondering – did any of you ever live under the Jim Crow laws? I did and as a white I still can not believe such a world existed in the US. Wright did and he has every right to remind America what being a nigger was all about – yes, I use the word that everyone fears and for good reason – the hate in that word tells a lot about the real America – the one you and I never really lived under: before any of you judge Wright, walk in his shoes and try, just try to realize what it was like living in that world and have to now hear how great Ronald Regan was and yet, Regan used his Mississippi speech to rally southern white racist voters to his side by playing on States Rights – the battle cry of the worst terrorists ever to kill hundreds of thousands of American whites (do any of you recall the civil war? I won’t even try to estimate the number of blacks killed during slavery; not that that really matters, right?) and even today most blacks have home values that account for little while most home owning whites have gained over 60% of their wealth ( homes that went from $18 K in the 50’s to $300 – 400+ K in the 90’s) just from increases in their home values that they bought in the 50, 60,70, or 80’s – something that was, until more recent times, closed off to the vast majority of blacks. Or the better schools we whites enjoyed during that time and so on. Yes, times have changed but what blacks started off with is so far below what the average white has been given by our far better off parents; not counting that still, being called a nigger cuts just as deep and is every bit as hateful a word and still exists as the evil racist word it does says a lot about todays America.
    And because Wright, a man who grew up and lived in that world says God-damn America, he is evil? Bitter, yes; that he has anger towards whites? Surprise but he has seen the terrible and endless deaths in his community caused by past injustices, the terrible toll that ‘lost of family’ has had on blacks and the ridiculous drug laws that have put a generation of young black users in jail (for an illness we jail people in the US?! That is sick and true hatred!) and he rails against such a system and is put off by such a system and maybe gets extreme views and that is so wrong? Try living in his real world for a week and then judge.
    I am not surprised that he has racist attitudes towards America … but what of us, who have had so many advantage Wright never had – of being white? If not, rethink what he has said in light of the truth. Look at the idiots who denied global warming (as if they know more than thousands of scientist that have spent years in a fiercely peer reviewed field, and some how, these PhD’s have all gotten it all wrong, yeah, right) once you look closely at all the facts, I believe that you can not deny that Wright is far more right, than most people have give him credit for.
    As for HIV being made by the US governement in his speech, yes, the man is dead wrong but so are the people that deny global warming – a scientific fact that may kill many more millions than HIV ever will yet where is your outrage over Bush and Cheney and so many others that are supporting the lie that global warming is not man induced?
    As for lies about HIV – get real. Most liberals are the worst liars of all about HIV – have anyone one here ever clearly stated that the most common way HIV is passed is by anal sex? Everyone is afraid to say that in the paper, TV and in public blogs and that fear has caused more HIV transmission than Wright’s stupid lie about the US (a government that did allow a terrible STD to run untreated for over twenty years in a number of black men so as to study its long term effects (I am not saying the US infect those men, just let them suffer and die without treatment to get medical data! Talk about sick!) in that infamous experiment; or a government that feed plutonium to children ( a small, select group of helpless, mentally retarded kids back in the 1950’s under their control to study how that poison ran through the system) but I ramble off the point; yes, Wright is wrong about a number of things but aren’t we all? Still, Wright did have good examples to flame his false beliefs. What of the pastor of hate that McCain was happy to get as an open supporter and was so pleased about it and still supports him? Where is the outrage by right wing blogs on that?
    In closing (thank goodness I am ending this soap box speech, you’re thinking if you have read this far) as Christ said, “Let him without sin throw the first stone.

  236. 236
    over_educated says:

    As the Hillary campaign sinks deeper into irrelevancy her supporters seem to get louder (and more desperate). About the Wright kerfuffel, who cares? You can kick up as much dust as you want but it doesn’t change the fact that ultimately you are trying to pull a “guilt by association.” Folks were looking to hang their hat on “ZOMG Obama is a crazy, angry black man and if he’s elected he will make us all smoke reefer, listen to smooth jazz and rape white women. Be afraid white America, be afraid!!!!!” That’s really the subtext of this little episode isn’t it? White people will now not vote for Obama because his preacher sounds like practically every other black preacher I’ve heard in the past half-century? Good luck with that argument, thats not even fooling my Republican father (the last Democrat he voted for was Kennedy, and even HE is considering voting for Obama).

    It doesn’t matter, now that Michigan (most likely) and Florida have decided to not hold new primaries, even if Hillary wins Pennsylvania by 100% she is not going to close the delegate gap between her and Obama.

    Obama will walk into the convention with 100+ delegate lead, and he will get the majority of superdelegates, because unlike some of the more deluisional Hillary supporters, the superdelegates are very aware that going against the will of the electorate (both popular vote and delegates)is not going to be good for them or the party.

    Hillary will continue to try to make hay out of this, but as Rushg Limbaugh so eloquently illustrated, it will just make her and her supporters look petty and small. After that speech yesterday I have never been more confidnt that this man WILL be the next President of the United States, because he is the only one running who, while still being a politician on many levels, at leasts tries to engage the better angels of the American public.

  237. 237
    John S. says:

    John S. loses another milkshake!

    Ok, so basically this is your stock line when someone busts you on being full of shit?

    Mission accomplished!

  238. 238
    John S. says:

    I prefer calm, rational discourse, but I’m in it to win it.

    I don’t think this term means what you think it does.

    (Hint: Imitating a bad pop song doesn’t qualify.)

  239. 239
    p.lukasiak says:

    As the Hillary campaign sinks deeper into irrelevancy her supporters seem to get louder (and more desperate). About the Wright kerfuffel, who cares? You can kick up as much dust as you want but it doesn’t change the fact that ultimately you are trying to pull a “guilt by association.”

    this is pure projection.

    At best, there is a sense of schadenfreude — we’ve been saying all along that when Obama’s past (including his association with Wright) gets scrutinized, that it would damage his campaign.

    But it wasn’t the Clinton campaign that brought Wright to national attention, and demanded answers about Obama’s association with him. It was the media — specifically the conservative media — that got the ball rolling on this one, and made it a “mainstream” controversy.

    We’re just sitting back, watching it all happen, and cynically commenting on the process as it unfolds.

  240. 240
    rachel says:

    John S. Says:

    John S. loses another milkshake!

    Ok, so basically this is your stock line when someone busts you on being full of shit?

    His milkshake does not bring all the boys to the yard?

  241. 241
    over_educated says:

    this is pure projection.

    At best, there is a sense of schadenfreude—we’ve been saying all along that when Obama’s past (including his association with Wright) gets scrutinized, that it would damage his campaign.

    But it wasn’t the Clinton campaign that brought Wright to national attention, and demanded answers about Obama’s association with him. It was the media—specifically the conservative media—that got the ball rolling on this one, and made it a “mainstream” controversy.

    /rollseye

    So what? Are you sugggesting that Hillary has not had media-driven episdoes like this targetted at her? Ultimately this is a non-issue, what was important was Barack’s response, which has gotten terrific reviews.

    How does this change the dynamic of the campaign? It doesn’t. He still has a commanding delegate/popular vote lead over Hillary and will continue to have it going into the convention. You are pinning your hopes on Barack collapsing, and he isn’t. This issue is a mountain out of a molehill, and now that it has been adressed it will be out of the main discourse in a few newscycles. (Of course I imagine Hillary is 44 and Redstate will be discussing it until the rapture).

    You think Hillary doens’t have a few of these coming around the bend? When are they releasing their tax returns again?

  242. 242
    Original Lee says:

    As of this morning, Clinton’s lead in the PA polls has dropped to 12 percent. Wasn’t she something like 20 percent ahead last week?

    Also, this morning on Morning Joe, Huckabee essentially said we need to cut Wright some slack, because he (Huckabee) grew up in the Jim Crow South and understands that people who lived in that time are still carrying chips on their shoulders. Pretty enlightened of him, all things considered.

  243. 243
    myiq2xu says:

    Now this is good snark:

    In the last couple of days, since we have roughly *doubled* our hit rate, I have noticed a new phenomenon. It appears that our commentary has a nauseating effect on some of our more sensitive readers. They write that what we have said here makes them sick. It is occurring with increasing frequency to the point that we are now able to give it a name: Conflucian Emesis Syndrome or CES. Sufferers share similar characteristics. They self-report to be fomerly unbiased, giving their support to neither Obama or Clinton. They are also plagued by a new symptom which I will name hallicinographia. That is, they are reading things that are not there. It is perfectly understandable, however, if they have just arrived here from a site indulging in over-the-top Obamaphilia-like debauchery. Such sites like DailyKos and TalkingPointsMemo stimulate the overexpression of neurtransmitters associated with hostility and irrationality. These neurotransmitters do not automatically refract to normal levels during the site hopping phase of an average surfing session. The result of elevated neurotransmitters is the ability to see hostility and irrationality in every post that they read subsequently. This effect may last for several hours and in some cases, days. In particular, hallucinographia prevents the reader from distiguinshing between snark and inflammatory purple prose.

    riverdaughter has got it going on.

  244. 244
    The Other Steve says:

    I watched CNN last night when I got home. There was a lively discussion about the Obama speech.

    What I found interesting was that the guests they had on the show who supported Clinton were respectful. They gave Obama credit for what he had done, and were generally encouraging.

    Quite unlike the Clinton supporters we have here who just want to play gotcha politics.

    Anyway, end result appears to be… the speech worked, the Wright issue is over for now. Although it will come back later and there is an expectation by Obama to talk about this more.

  245. 245
    Chinn Romney says:

    How could I use the same metaphor twice in a row and not catch it?

    Im getting old.

    You’re not old my friend. What’s old is this Compu-Serve era, no-edits-please blogging SW. If Cole hadn’t ticked off the Red State folks I’m sure they would have sent a Tiger Team over to help upgrade.

  246. 246
    The Other Steve says:

    this is pure projection.

    Not really. You have to admit you have gotten a lot more shrill in recent weeks as it becomes more and more clear that people just don’t want Hillary as our candidate.

  247. 247
    Chinn Romney says:

    His milkshake does not bring all the boys to the yard?

    Then put some peach lambic it then!

  248. 248
    zzyzx says:

    What is so stunning about this speech is that Obama didn’t have to do it. He could have completely disowned Wright and waited for the next scandal to hit. Instead he took a risk.

    That’s what’s been missing from the Obama camp lately. He’s been running out the clock and waiting for the elections to pass. Yesterday was the turning point. He said, “Screw it. If I’m going to be President, I can’t just play it safe.” Yesterday was the race speech. Today is an Iraq speech. Tomorrow is the economy. If he’s as honest in those speeches as he was yesterday, well then, this race is over.

  249. 249
    myiq2xu says:

    If he’s as honest in those speeches as he was yesterday, well then, this race is over.

    I have to agree with that statement.

  250. 250
    cleek says:

    the Wright issue is over for now

    you gotta check out the wingnut blogs. for those clowns, the issue is nowhere near ‘over’; Obama’s speech has given them an excuse to kick the frenzy up another notch. of course this is to be expected.

  251. 251
    myiq2xu says:

    you gotta check out the wingnut blogs. for those clowns, the issue is nowhere near ‘over’; Obama’s speech has given them an excuse to kick the frenzy up another notch. of course this is to be expected.

    Over at FOX News they are partying like it’s 1999.

  252. 252
    ThymeZone says:

    The righty blogs and talk shows are welcome to make as much noise about Wright as they want.

    First of all, that won’t affect the outcome of the Dem primary contest. Second of all, if they do it in September, when Obama is the nominee, it will backfire on them.

    The media and the Clinton campaign can’t go near this issue now. Obama took the high ground and if anyone tries to belabor the Wright crap, they look like they are beating a wounded horse just for sport. Obama knew that the high ground was his, and took it yesterday. Only the fools can continue trying to make something of it, and their problem is …. they are fools, and they look like fools next to Obama.

    People forget even recent history. The media constantly went after Ronald Reagan, and he remained popular. Fox News can become the All Anti-Obama Network 24 hours a day, it won’t stop him from getting elected. Even at their peak rating period, they aren’t getting 1% of the public in front of their crummy shows. Who cares what they do?

  253. 253
    p.lukasiak says:

    What is so stunning about this speech is that Obama didn’t have to do it. He could have completely disowned Wright and waited for the next scandal to hit. Instead he took a risk.

    except that after a 20 year association with the guy, he couldn’t have just “completely disowned him.” Obama “owns” Wright — there is simply no way that he could credibly claim not to know about Wright’s “controversial” opinions, and disowning him at this point would look ridiculous.

    So Obama did what he always does when presented with a problem — he tries to change the subject. When Clinton raised “preparation” he tried to change the subject to “judgement”. When Wright became a problem for him, he’s trying to change the subject to “race in America.”

    As I said earlier, had Obama given this speech during the South Carolina controversy, I would have been impressed. But giving it now reeks of damage control rather than sincerity — why does “race in America” become what Obama wants to talk about only when it starts to becomee a liability for him?

  254. 254
    ThymeZone says:

    What a fucking ass you are, lukasiak.

  255. 255
    myiq2xu says:

    As I said earlier, had Obama given this speech during the South Carolina controversy, I would have been impressed. But giving it now reeks of damage control rather than sincerity—why does “race in America” become what Obama wants to talk about only when it starts to becomee a liability for him?

    Remember when he was “post-racial” and above the fray in South Carolina while the media were going after the Clintons? Then his campaign talking points pushing the race card meme surfaced showing that his surrogates were behind it, and suddenly he disowned the whole thing and said “can’t we all just get along?”

  256. 256
    ThymeZone says:

    Get a brain, Mike. A black guy runs for president and race is an issue? Gee, whodathunkit?

    Who do you think should decide how to shape the race effect in this campaign year? Bill O’Reilly? You and lukasiak?

    Obama owns this issue, it’s his, and he can handle it as he sees fit.

    Obama won’t tell John McCain how to be an ex-POW and McCain better not tell Barack Obama how to be a black man running for president.

    What you and fuckhead lukasiak are doing is now at the stage where I am ready to withdraw by objection to your being banned. I think you are that bad, that what you guys are saying is that toxic. John won’t ban you, because he is too nice a guy and too invested in free speech.

    But if this were my blog, your asses would be gone. You suck.

  257. 257
    ThymeZone says:

    Now we know what we’ll hear from those like John McCain who support open-ended war. They will argue that leaving Iraq is surrender. That we are emboldening the enemy. These are the mistaken and misleading arguments we hear from those who have failed to demonstrate how the war in Iraq has made us safer. Just yesterday, we heard Senator McCain confuse Sunni and Shiite, Iran and al Qaeda. Maybe that is why he voted to go to war with a country that had no al Qaeda ties. Maybe that is why he completely fails to understand that the war in Iraq has done more to embolden America’s enemies than any strategic choice that we have made in decades.

    That’s Obama, today. Again he changes the subject. Why? Because the subject is a list of things that are important to this country. But here on these pages, we have to listen to the likes of myiq and lukasiak talk about some petty bullshit that they already posted about thirty times already and have nothing to do with anything that is important to this country.

    Yeah, I think we should change the fucking subject. Change it every day, because there are a LOT OF SUBJECTS that need to be talked about these days.

  258. 258
    over_educated says:

    So Obama did what he always does when presented with a problem—he tries to change the subject. When Clinton raised “preparation” he tried to change the subject to “judgement”. When Wright became a problem for him, he’s trying to change the subject to “race in America.”

    Sadly /rolleyes is grossly inadequate for this post.

    Yes, the Clintons have never been known to try to change the subject when an unpleasant political situation appeared.

    Changing the subject to judgement? Yes we all know that logically rebutting an argument is “changing the subject.” Truly, the mem “I may not be the most experienced candidate in the race, but I assert my judgement is the best based on these facts…” is a clear dodge.

    If you want to understand why Hillary is losing, your and myiq’s posts are terrific examples.

  259. 259
    over_educated says:

    So Obama did what he always does when presented with a problem—he tries to change the subject. When Clinton raised “preparation” he tried to change the subject to “judgement”. When Wright became a problem for him, he’s trying to change the subject to “race in America.”

    Sadly /rolleyes is grossly inadequate for this post.

    Yes, the Clintons have never been known to try to change the subject when an unpleasant political situation appeared.

    Changing the subject to judgement? Yes we all know that logically rebutting an argument is “changing the subject.” Truly, the mem “I may not be the most experienced candidate in the race, but I assert my judgement is the best based on these facts…” is a clear dodge.

    If you want to understand why Hillary is losing, your and myiq’s posts are terrific examples.

  260. 260
    mitch says:

    I believe The Editors have your answer, John.

  261. 261
    myiq2xu says:

    Obama owns this issue, it’s his

    Yes he does.

  262. 262
    grandpajohn says:

    As I said earlier, had Obama given this speech during the South Carolina controversy, I would have been impressed.

    Well la de la, and why the fuck do you think that he would ever give a shit about impressing you? his intent is to communicate with reasonable people. Hell the only way he could ever make an impression on you is with a sledge hammer

  263. 263
    Sasha says:

    Compare and contrast.

    Original post:

    As I said earlier, had Obama given this speech during the South Carolina controversy, I would have been impressed. But giving it now reeks of damage control rather than sincerity—why does “race in America” become what Obama wants to talk about only when it starts to becomee a liability for him?

    Revised:

    As I said earlier, had Clinton given this issue attention before the Iowa caucuses, I would have been impressed. But giving it now reeks of damage control rather than sincerity—why does the “disenfranchisement” of MI/FL voters become what Hillary wants to talk about only when the potential lack of delegates starts to become a liability for her?

  264. 264
    Tim says:

    I think yesterday’s speech was kind of like near the end of that movie “Zoolander”. At the end when Zoolander is being manipulated through the music. And when Will Farrel tries to kill the Dali Lama (or whatever he was) Zoolander busts out the “Blue Steel” look. And everyone who looks at it is moved nearly to tears by Blue Steel’s majesty

    Yesterday’s speech was the “Blue Steel” moment for many people.

    To sum up

    Obama = Zoolander

    Hillary = Mugatu

    McCain = One of the models who dies in a random gasoline fight accident.

  265. 265
    slippy hussein toad says:

    myiq2xu Says:

    I tried having serious discussions. I got insulted and called names, “troll” being one of the nicer ones.

    With an arrogant username like yours you’re really inviting it.

    Plus, you’re often so boneheadedly wrong that it just aggravates people.

    I’m just saying.

  266. 266

    […] Juice   « Is it just me, or does the president frequently sound like he is addressing a class offirst graders? […]

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  1. […] Juice   « Is it just me, or does the president frequently sound like he is addressing a class offirst graders? […]

  2. […] And now, I will use this moment of national coming-together to help John Cole understand the world in which we live. Innocent as a babe newborn, he asks: McQ can’t be that stupid. He really can’t. He was in the military for years and handled heavy weaponry, so I hope to God he really is not that stupid. […]

  3. […] So?  Does McQuain want to pretend that the statements "that are the cause of this controversy" are the only possible statements that Obama ever heard that Obama might have "considered controversial"?  Unless McQuain knows which statements Obama heard while sitting in church, and which he didn’t, he’s calling the man a liar based on nothing in evidence but McQuain’s own wishful projection.  In fact, McQuain’s sole evidence is:  "I can only believe".  I can only believe that McQuain ought to know better.  (And McQuain’s brushing off of John Cole on the matter with nothing but a cheesy ad hominem, doesn’t suddenly elevate McQuain’s utter dullness to enlightened or powerful discourse, either.) […]

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