Wingnut Logic

These people are killing me. Allahpundit, on Obama’s rejection of Wright’s “offensive” remarks:

That’s a nice, lawyerly dodge. Is he suggesting that in 20 years’ time he never heard Wright say anything along these lines? Or is he merely suggesting that he was never personally in attendance when Wright said it, as if that would matter remotely to his decision to stay with the church once he heard about it secondhand? Note how he limits the scope of the matter, too, to only the statements Fox and ABC discovered in going through tapes of Wright’s sermons. That’s not the issue; the issue is whether Wright has a habit of spitting poison like this and whether Obama was happy enough to let him do it so long as there weren’t political consequences. If the media starts going through old sermons week by week, with new and ever more nuanced conspiracy theories emerging periodically, is he going to roll out weekly statements to the effect of, “Nope, never personally heard him say that, or that, or that either”?

No, you douchebag, he is stating he condemns the remarks in question and doesn’t always agree with his pastor. I heard my cab driver say “nigger” a month ago. I guess that means I am racist, right?

These stupid fucking wankers are driving me insane. I guess now we need to sift through the political views of everyone’s minister and find out if they are acceptable and “patriotic” enough for the Allahpundit.

PS- There is no such thing as god, you fairy tale believing morons.

PPS- Can you jackasses stop pretending he is Muslim now that you are denouncing his Christian minister?

*** Update ***

Reliably, yet given the high bar for stupidity set by Allahpundit, somewhat unbelievably, Dan Riehl ups the ante:

Also, if that’s the case and Obama is a disciple of Wrights, exactly what type of change does Obama have in mind when it comes to race relations in America? The church also celebrates Kwanzaa. I wonder, is this something Obama intends to continue if he’s elected president? His holiday cards are pretty generic … for a committed Christian.

ZOMG, if Barack HUSSEIN Obama is elected President the Holiday cards might be generic. That is it. I am switching my vote to Hitlery, whose Christmas cards will certainly be full of Christian flair.

Is this like EdTV or that other movie where a man’s life was filmed without his knowledge? Am I secretly being filmed as I am driven into madness by these morons? Is that what is going on? Someone please make it stop.

*** Update #2 ***

Not to be outdone in the rightwing blogosphere push for total lunacy, the Confederate Wanker (via Tbogg) chimes in:

Not only am I certain Barack Obama is unfit to run this nation, I now question his ability to raise his own children, for the hatred he has willingly exposed them to since their births.

If there is a bigger set of douchebags on the internet than Dan Riehl and Bob Owens, I am afraid to read them.

532 replies
  1. 1
    Sstarr says:

    The fact that Osama is a Muslim makes it EVEN WORSE! He’s so racist that he goes to a Christian Church – even though he’s a super duper Muslim terrorist – just to hear the America hating minister say racist racist things. Which means he believes them all. Except the Christian stuff. And he’s non-white. And offensive. He should reject, refute and fire himself, his minister, his wife and everyone forever.

  2. 2
    empty says:

    Can you jackasses stop pretending he is Muslim now that you are denouncing his Christian minister?

    Its going to be fun watching the contortions as they try to keep both memes alive.

  3. 3
    Svensker says:

    PS- There is no such thing as god, you fairy tale believing morons.

    So, you’re calling Obama a moron?

  4. 4
    zzyzx says:

    The good news about this, such as there is, is that he has 6 weeks before he has another election. He’s going to denounce it, denounce it firmly, and by the time PA rolls around, it’s going to be old news. Obama is incredible with the counter attacks.

  5. 5
    zzyzx says:

    Oh and the other good news is that this is all they’ve been able to find on him. How many other politicians facing this much scrutiny would produce this little dirt.

    Unfortunately, McCain isn’t being attacked the same way…

  6. 6
    Ted says:

    These stupid fucking wankers are driving me insane. […]

    PS- There is no such thing as god, you fairy tale believing morons.

    PPS- Can you jackasses stop pretending he is Muslim now that you are denouncing his Christian minister?

    Oh man, this is funnier than Lewis Black’s rage-comedy! This and a couple other blogs are the only ones requiring me to stifle uncontrolled laughter while at work.

    Anyway, I have a theory that former Republicans who are fed up with the current GOP harbor quite a bit more disgust and disdain for the wingnuts than even the lefties do. Maybe added anger that they turned a respectable conservative party into a three ring circus with a gypsie show attached.

  7. 7
    Jim Henley says:

    You know, this secret Muslim thing is big, actually. Since, and I read this on that Spencer guy’s blog, Muslims are allowed to lie to non-Muslims, anyone who says he’s not a Muslim could be lying. Indeed, is probably lying. Would it be irresponsible to speculate that Glenn Reynolds is a secret Muslim? John McCain? Michael Savage? My friends, it would be irresponsible not to speculate!

  8. 8
    zzyzx says:

    Oh also, Friday afternoon. Best time for silliness like this. Without 527’s and with Clinton not willing to press it, it’ll be hard for this to gain traction.

  9. 9
    Jim Henley says:

    PS. Fairly obviously, Jeremiah Wright and John Hagee are both secret Muslims. It is hardly unlikely that Pope Benedict is as well.

  10. 10
    GSD says:

    He’s from the radical Christian wing of the American Islamofascist movement.

    Deal with it.

    -GSD

  11. 11
    zack says:

    I particularly like this Update:

    Update: Like Geraghty, I question the timing.

    Isn’t that video of Wright like 5 years old?

    But Obama’s timing of responding to it (after it becomes a huge story all day) on a Friday afternoon at 4:30 p.m. is very suspicious.

    If he doesn’t respond to it immediately, he’s doomed – an admission of quilt and racism. And if he does quickly respond to it– well, that certainly raises questions doesn’t it?

    Of course, just to show that wingnuts don’t have a corner on the insanity market, Larry “Hillary or die” Johnson insists that this Wright video is the very definition of the Obamas – it’s who they are.

    Oy.

  12. 12
    HyperIon says:

    Is this like EdTV or that other movie where a man’s life was filmed without his knowledge? Am I secretly being filmed as I am driven into madness by these morons? Is that what is going on?

    to steal a title of a recent post: who do you think YOU are?
    we are all being driven crazy these days.

  13. 13
    Ted says:

    Of course, just to show that wingnuts don’t have a corner on the insanity market, Larry “Hillary or die” Johnson insists that this Wright video is the very definition of the Obamas – it’s who they are.

    Yeah. Lately I’ve been wondering if the CIA might want to beef up their psychological screening of new hires.

  14. 14
    Mighty Forego says:

    “I heard my cab driver say “nigger” a month ago. I guess that means I am racist, right?”

    That might be the worst analogy ever. In any event if someone who race baits at the drop of a hat is considered a racist, then i’d have to say you nailed it.

  15. 15
    John Cole says:

    “I heard my cab driver say “nigger” a month ago. I guess that means I am racist, right?”

    That might be the worst analogy ever. In any event if someone who race baits at the drop of a hat is considered a racist, then i’d have to say you nailed it.

    Fine. I have had academic advisors (and I will not say where or when) who have used some unsavory and offensive language. I guess that means I think the same, because much like Obama, I kept going back. Is that analogy better?

    Quit being so damned moronic. Wright’s political beliefs are not Obama’s. Obama does not have to apologize for them.

    Make this all stop.

  16. 16
    Callisto says:

    That’s the worst thing. This whole imbroglio now firmly establishes that not only is Obama a Muslim, he’s the worst kind of Muslim – a Christian!

    My god, we’ve got to stop him now!

  17. 17
    cbear says:

    by the time PA rolls around,it’s going to be old news

    Yeah, only by that time we’ll be shocked by:

    AUNT BEA RAPED, OPIE BUGGERED, MAYBERRY RAZED-

    OBAMA’S SECRET PLOT REVEALED—

    It can only get worse.

  18. 18
    jaime says:

    It’s a sad sad day when Clinton supporters sound exactly like right wing radio hosts and bloggers.

    It’s a lashing out, I guess. They passed the first stage of grief at Clinton’s impending loss (Hillary is another comback kid!), and straddling the line between bargaining (Obama could totally be her Veep) and anger (You are against Ferraro because she’s white!!!!!).

    Depression will soon follow, and then acceptance when they realize that they prefer saving choice and bringing the troops home to saying “Eff the black man, McCain all the way!”

  19. 19
    BFR says:

    I wonder how much of it has to do with the different oratory style of Mr. Wright compared with the Reverend Lovejoy’s of the world.

    If the cadence, style and volume is not what you’re used to hearing in church, maybe you’d be more likely to notice the content.

    So you could have an army of white christians who’ve been listening to some pretty inflammatory stuff for years (anti-Jew/anti-Catholic/anit-black) but who never really noticed because they tune out 90% of the weekly sermons.

  20. 20
    Bubblegum Tate says:

    He’s from the radical Christian wing of the American Islamofascist movement.

    POtD!

    The comedy underlying all of this is that Allahpundit is completely convinced that he’s a Very Serious Journalist asking Very Serious Questions with Very Serious Repercussions when in fact he’s just a garden-variety right-wing douchebag with far more bandwidth than common sense.

    Colbert had a great opening line last night: “Is Barack Obama a stealth Muslim? I look at the facts…and say ‘yes’ anyway!”

  21. 21
    ThymeZone says:

    Okay, under the new rules, John, I will need the name of every pastor you have listened to in your lifetime in order to judge what you really believe and if you are a member of the official Good Old Boys Club (to which I belong, of course. I am baptized as an Episcopalian, so, obviously I am okay).

    I again assert that if John McCain can have John Hagee, then nobody gets to criticize anybody’s Sunday preacher. Period.

    What kind of America do these morons think we have? One in which we only associate with people whose views are politically correct and acceptable to the local Blue Haired White Ladies’ Christian Association lest our associations be used against us later.

    ppGaz getting ANGRY. This is suck fucking bullshit.

  22. 22
    JL says:

    Bear Sterns is bailed out by the government which can only be called Socialism for the rich and a preacher says something unpatriotic. Maybe it’s time to go watch “The Lives of Others” again. I can’t believe that I actually ducked and covered for this as a child.

  23. 23
    Mighty Forego says:

    “Wright’s political beliefs are not Obama’s. Obama does not have to apologize for them.”

    Agreed, and Ferraro’s are not Clinton’s, you moron.

  24. 24
    Zifnab says:

    Is this like EdTV or that other movie where a man’s life was filmed without his knowledge? Am I secretly being filmed as I am driven into madness by these morons? Is that what is going on? Someone please make it stop.

    Please stop folding your pants in an overhand fashion. Also, using a little toilet bowl cleaner wouldn’t kill you.

  25. 25
    Rarely Posts says:

    It’s a sad sad day when Clinton supporters sound exactly like right wing radio hosts and bloggers.

    It’s a lashing out, I guess. They passed the first stage of grief at Clinton’s impending loss (Hillary is another comback kid!), and straddling the line between bargaining (Obama could totally be her Veep) and anger (You are against Ferraro because she’s white!!).

    Depression will soon follow, and then acceptance when they realize that they prefer saving choice and bringing the troops home to saying “Eff the black man, McCain all the way!”

    Make things up much?

  26. 26
    Dennis - SGMM says:

    Agreed, and Ferraro’s are not Clinton’s, you moron.

    Are you quite sure of that? Proof, please.

  27. 27
    caustics says:

    Aside from one or two minor things, there aren’t many of Wright’s sentiments that haven’t crossed my mind from time to time.

    But more than that–having grown up and worked in the “predominately white” version of Pennsylvania, I’ve heard every nigger joke you can possibly imagine. The very real possibility that these people will continue to get their way makes me want to puke.

  28. 28
    Mike P says:

    Some of you are giving the average Joe too much credit. There is a (sadly) substantial population of the public who will not understand that Obama’s being a Christian and going to a Christian precludes him from also, somehow, being a crypto-Muslim.

    They can do either or…either he’s a Manchurian Muslim or he’s a pro-black,

  29. 29
    Mike P says:

    Some of you are giving the average Joe too much credit. There is a (sadly) substantial population of the public who will not understand that Obama’s being a Christian and going to a Christian precludes him from also, somehow, being a crypto-Muslim.

    They can do either or…either he’s a Manchurian Muslim or he’s a pro-black, America hating, Christian nationalist.

  30. 30
    Rarely Posts says:

    I again assert that if John McCain can have John Hagee, then nobody gets to criticize anybody’s Sunday preacher. Period.

    How about not accepting nasty bullshit from anyone’s preacher? Sounds like you are saying two wrongs make a right.

  31. 31
    Zifnab says:

    I again assert that if John McCain can have John Hagee, then nobody gets to criticize anybody’s Sunday preacher. Period.

    I’m sorry. Perhaps you didn’t get the memo. IOKIYAR.

    McCain can go to Bible Study with the Unibomber and take communion host from Charles Manson. No one will give a crap. But if Obama’s pastor has a bad word to say about Ronald Reagen, you can guarantee it’ll make The Wingnut Daily in 50 point font for a week.

  32. 32
    eap says:

    First he wasnt’t “patriotic” enough, now he’s not “Christian” enough…Where is this grading scale they are using, and how come I never got one? Is this really how we are going to select the person to assume the most powerful position in the world?

  33. 33
    John Cole says:

    “Wright’s political beliefs are not Obama’s. Obama does not have to apologize for them.”

    Agreed, and Ferraro’s are not Clinton’s, you moron.

    For fuck’s sake, Ferraro was an official fund raiser for Clinton. Wright is his soon to be former pastor.

    What is so hard to grasp about this?

  34. 34
    jaime says:

    Make things up much?

    Hmmm…before this week, the biggest pusher of this story was Sean Hannity. So no, I’m pretty accurate.

  35. 35
    srv says:

    So McCain shouldn’t have to apologize for Hagee’s statements.

    I suppose I could be a 20 year member of the Ward Churchill fan club, give $22K to his movement last year, call him my spiritual advisor, and then just shake my head and say “Who me? Nah, he’s just like your crazy uncle”. Right.

    You people are going to drive the Dem party off a cliff.

  36. 36
    BFR says:

    This could be a fun election cycle – the blacks, secularists and muslims vote for Obama. McCain gets the fundies and the Likudnik Jewish vote and the Catholics go with Daffy Duck as write-in candidate. Who wins?

  37. 37
    michael says:

    wow. i don’t think i am used to John Cole the outspoken atheist. I’m digging it, but i don’t think I’ve seen posts as vocal as this on the issue of God from John until this week.

    How did the old John Cole rationalize the evangelical influence on his party when you were loyal GOP?

  38. 38
    Rarely Posts says:

    Then tell me, who besides Ferraro ever said you are against me because I’m white? You said “they” said it. And who said eff the black man?

  39. 39
    abiodun says:

    Obama-Wright; McCain-Hagee/Parsley: When does it end. I love Sstarr comments above though, I just could not quit laughing at that one-it was great.

  40. 40
    PaulW says:

    There is one way to stop this.

    Make punditry stupidity a capital felony.

  41. 41
    Rarely Posts says:

    For fuck’s sake, Ferraro was an official fund raiser for Clinton. Wright is his soon to be former pastor.

    What is so hard to grasp about this?

    Ferraro is gone from the campaign. Is Obama gone from the church?

  42. 42
    zzyzx says:

    Read Obama’s statement. He’s doing exactly what he needs to do; he talks about why this man inspired him without accepting him craziness. Come on, don’t we all know someone who was important in our lives and changed us for the better but then boarded the train to crazyland?

    It’s possible that this will derail him. I don’t put anything beyond the American people these day. However, I suspect that this will be the kind of thing that will mostly piss off the people who were looking for a reason to be pissed off at him, the people who have been bouncing from attack to attack looking for something to stick.

    …there are reasons why I have no interest in ever running for office…

  43. 43
    Rarely Posts says:

    So McCain shouldn’t have to apologize for Hagee’s statements.

    I suppose I could be a 20 year member of the Ward Churchill fan club, give $22K to his movement last year, call him my spiritual advisor, and then just shake my head and say “Who me? Nah, he’s just like your crazy uncle”. Right.

    You people are going to drive the Dem party off a cliff.

    I think they already have.

  44. 44
    jaime says:

    You people are going to drive the Dem party off a cliff.

    Yes. Us people. Who believe in Obama’s message of hope (with the full knowledge that he is after all only a man) and that Clinton’s message of “I’m a victim!” and “Scary Black Man!!!!!” is unappealing.

    My church chose to enable pedophile priests and Nazis and says I’m going to hell because I am pro-choice. I guess I’m just a closet Kiddie touching Nazi abortionist.

  45. 45
    demkat620 says:

    Wow, John. How bad does that ear hurt? I can almost see you resisting the temptation to reach through the monitor and choke somebody.

  46. 46
    socraticsilence says:

    I don’t want to play some racecard BS but other than race and the fact taht he’s a Dem (which would normally, be the thing, but I get a real feeling here that htis isn’t the issue this time) how the hell is this anything worse than what the Rights literal soulmates say every Sunday (and note: that his is basically 4 sermons out of 40 yers, and that even the objectionable stuff here is being heavily distorted– Murdoch’s peepes are already saying Wtright claimed that 9-11 is a conspiracy)? I just don’t get how people are all scared and offended and yet at teh same time cool with nut’s who claim that there needs to ba a holy war, or that God caused Katrina to kill the sinners, or that Gays should be killed, or that Catholics worhsip the Whore of Babylon have direct fucking access to the President of the United States, I mean seriously wtf, and you know that besides the notable case of Rick Warren (who has a friendship with Obama btw) none of them have helped the truly needy on a level with Wright’s church– after all poor people are sinners who deserve their fate.

  47. 47
    Callisto says:

    Wot, Obama gave money to his church? Oh noes!

  48. 48
    jrg says:

    Quit being so damned moronic. Wright’s political beliefs are not Obama’s. Obama does not have to apologize for them.

    It’s the politics of the desperate. Throw as much crap as you can at Obama – not to see any of it stick, but to make him deny something. It won’t work.

    I think this is playing into Obama’s hands. He baited the brownshirts with the lapel pin, and they took it. The more they complain about nonsense like Obama’s pastor, the more vapid and pathetic the right appears.

    This is just another spin on the same meaningless nonsense we’ve been hearing from the right since Bush lied us into war in 2003.

  49. 49
    Pb says:

    Rarely Posts,

    Ferraro is gone from the campaign. Is Obama gone from the church?

    No, and why should he be? Are you an idiotic troll and/or an ignorant foreigner, or do you actually have no excuse here? Anyhow, I’ll just assume that you know nothing about the issue, and have never read the Constitution, and leave it at that–that’s about as charitable as I can be.

  50. 50
    jaime says:

    Is Obama gone from the church?

    Why should he leave his church? Especially with Wright retiring? Are you saying ALL those who attend Obama’s church believe like Wright does? Or that a church IS it’s pastor?

    Why should he excommunicate himself at the behest of people who would never vote for him in the first place?

  51. 51
    AkaDad says:

    I think that I’ll support McCain, because I think America is ready for a President that seeks out and accepts the endorsement of extremists.

  52. 52
    caustics says:

    Then tell me, who besides Ferraro ever said you are against me because I’m white? You said “they” said it. And who said eff the black man?

    Are you serious?

  53. 53
    Conservatively Liberal says:

    Can you jackasses stop pretending he is Muslim now that you are denouncing his Christian minister?

    Well, this mental gymnast over at Hillaryis44.com are having no problem combining the two…

    Obama is TOAST and all you have to do is send that video to the Jewish, LGBT, Catholics, Veteran, Firemen websites and let the video speak for itself…Obama called Dr. Wright family and he is part of his campaign.

    Obama is quoting Nation of Islam and Malcom X…most white under 40 don’t remember what the quotes mean but in the Black and Radical Left communities it’s code for overthrowing the government of the “White Blue Eye Devil.” It’s talking about a revolting against the “Master Race”, the Plantation and other race baiting words.

    Obama is not going to be a friend for Israel, he’s going to be like Bush for for the Palestinians…I have not doubt that Humas have been funneling money to him but I can’t prove it yet…but I do think GWB and Cheney know more about Obama then what they are letting out at this time.

    It surprising how white people never suspect the Educated Black person having these belief but alway buy the stereotype as the person who is the threat.

    Like I said Obama is not the person people see on TV reading those can speech…he’s much dangereous and unforturnately my people will go down due to a lack of knowledge.

    Yes they are bitter, angry Black men and women and they have IVY degrees too.

    This nonsensical statement neatly dovetails both issues and melds them into a mind-warping screed fit for freeperville. I guess Obama is one of those rare Christian Muslim hybrids. Now if they can find some way to tie Obama to Judaism, they will have created the perfect bogeyman.

    OMGZ111!!! Obama is a Black Muslim Christian Jew!

    Next, they need to find a way to tie him to Buddhism, Rastafarianism, Voodoo, Mormonism, Jehovah’s Witness, Scientology, David Koresh, Heavens Gate and Jonestown.

  54. 54
    Dug Jay says:

    For fuck’s sake, Ferraro was an official fund raiser for Clinton. Wright is his soon to be former pastor.

    What is so hard to grasp about this?

    After that brilliant and logical conclusion, I don’t think you should ever again opine on Falwell, Robertson, Hagee or any other religious twit.

    You obviously have no credibility on such issues….merely a great big load of hypocrisy.

  55. 55
    myiq2xu says:

    I heard my cab driver say “nigger” a month ago. I guess that means I am racist, right?

    That depends. Did you still pay for the ride? Did you leave a tip? Did you leap from the vehicle without even waiting for it to stop?

    Was the driver a has-been comedian who’s been out of work for years? Was he a Hip-hop performer with a mouthful of “bling?” Was he also an anti-dentite?

    Were you enroute to a NAACP meeting? A cross burning? The Emperors Club VIP?

    Most importantly: Which candidate does he support? If he was he a supporter of HRC and his dogwhistle reminded you of the fact that Obama has fathered two black babies, causing you to switch your vote, then, well . . . you know.

  56. 56
    ThymeZone says:

    Is Obama gone from the church?

    Is BarelyPosts, the spooftroll, gone from this blog?

  57. 57
    empty says:

    For fuck’s sake, Ferraro was an official fund raiser for Clinton. Wright is his soon to be former pastor.

    Look, this is really stupid. How about we accept what Clinton says about what she believes and what Obama says about what he believes. They both have a record of public service which is probably considerably longer than that of anyone on this blog. Wright seems to be a decent guy with a provocative manner of preaching – no more. I don’t see any reason for Obama to distance/abjure/condemn him whatsoever. And John, if instead of accepting the essential decency of the people involved you want stupid arguments like the one above, here is one to add to the mix.

  58. 58
    Jon H says:

    I’m sure at some point we’ll find out that Michelle Obama’s yoga instructor is excessively fond of high colonics, and Barack will have to rejectively denouncify him or her.

  59. 59
    myiq2xu says:

    Well, this mental gymnast over at Hillaryis44.com

    Can we get a moratorium on nutpicking from a spoof site run by wingnut Obama trolls?

  60. 60
    Rarely Posts says:

    No, and why should he be? Are you an idiotic troll and/or an ignorant foreigner, or do you actually have no excuse here? Anyhow, I’ll just assume that you know nothing about the issue, and have never read the Constitution, and leave it at that—that’s about as charitable as I can be.

    I dunno, man. I left the church when they hated on gays. I guess it’s okay to hate on Americans? And it’s okay for McCain to accept an endorsement from a church that hates on Catholics.

    I’m stunned.

  61. 61
    socraticsilence says:

    “You know, this secret Muslim thing is big, actually. Since, and I read this on that Spencer guy’s blog, Muslims are allowed to lie to non-Muslims, anyone who says he’s not a Muslim could be lying. Indeed, is probably lying. Would it be irresponsible to speculate that Glenn Reynolds is a secret Muslim? John McCain? Michael Savage? My friends, it would be irresponsible not to speculate!”

    Don’t be silly, McCain’s a communist, we all know that, see I read on Freerepublic that he had it easy as a POW because he sold out, and then he left the MIAs behind in the 1980s, er something, I’m not fluent in Kook yet.

  62. 62
    ThymeZone says:

    How about not accepting nasty bullshit from anyone’s preacher?

    Yeah, they told us about freedom of speech in my elementary school, and we believed it. We figured out that you listen to all kinds of speech and decide for yourself what to think.

    How about you? What did you learn?

    Never mind, nobody cares. Rhetorical question.

  63. 63
    El Cid says:

    I don’t think the right wing views Obama’s supposed secret Muslimhood, radical Black nationalist Christianism, Afrocentric views, and Nation of Islam as being contradictory in any way.

    Rather for them it all melds together into some sort of colored anti-Americanism which opposes the only ‘true’ religion which is crazy Southern Baptist white conservatism.

    So it’s rather silly to think you’re getting one over on the right by pointing out the simultaneous Secret Muslim vs. Black Nationalist Christian memes, because they see them as the same, not as being different.

  64. 64
    Rarely Posts says:

    Are you serious?

    Yes.

  65. 65

    Is Obama gone from the church?

    No Wright left the church first.

    Obama explained it. The new pastor is far more moderate, on top of that — there’s video of him on YouTube, if you care to look.

  66. 66
    jaime says:

    Wright has left the Obama campaign.

    So denounced, rejected, and resigned. What next? Stabbing?

  67. 67
    jaime says:

    if you care to look.

    They don’t care to. They need to push this story for six more weeks. The “Scary Black America Hater” meme has to stick. It just has to.

  68. 68
    ThymeZone says:

    Yes

    Heh. Your career here is off to a great start. Only a few days and already people are learning not to take you seriously.

    Next …. beer blogging? Cat medical tips? Whatcha got?

  69. 69
    John Cole says:

    So denounced, rejected, and resigned. What next? Stabbing?

    I say he burns down the church. Then he will be acceptable to allahpundit. I mean, no one said anything when the roots of the modern GOP were burning churches in the south in the last century.

  70. 70
    Martin says:

    Ferraro is gone from the campaign. Is Obama gone from the church?

    Are you gone from this blog? Clearly you disagree with some of the words said. Clearly you take responsibility for those words by not denouncing every one of them. Why haven’t you left?

    Every check a book out of the library that stated things you disagree with? I assume you never went back after denouncing the library.

    The people that say Obama should leave the church are advocating censorship quite directly. I find it rather ironic that McCain is proving to be a much better defender of Obama than any Hillary supporter I’ve yet met.

    They used to have a technique for when black pastors said unfavorable things. They’d burn the church down. That’s essentially what people are calling for here, but doing it through the media. It’s abhorrent.

  71. 71
    Mighty Forego says:

    “For fuck’s sake, Ferraro was an official fund raiser for Clinton. Wright is his soon to be former pastor.”

    Oh no, an “official” fundraiser. Well I guess that makes all the difference in the world. I didn’t realize she was really “official”. Was this other guy an “official” minister or wass he the unofficial kind.

    Look Senator Clinton is a good person and would make a good president. Senator Obama is a good person who would make a good president. John Cole is a fallen away right winger who like many of the affluent limosine liberals who support Obama is a hypocrite and a race baiter.

  72. 72
    jaime says:

    I say he burns down the church.

    Then that will prove he is a super secret stealth Muslim. Oh, all is lost for Obama.

  73. 73

    no one said anything when the roots of the modern GOP were burning churches in the south in the last century.

    Well, you know, it’s always different when Uppity Negros like me are involved. Give us an education, and we just don’t know what to do with ourselves!

    This is crap. I hate what Wright’s saying, but I know, 100%, the quandary Obama’s in, and how much of an insidious trap it can be. I’ve had family say things about “white people” and “Mexicans” that made me blanch, made me distance myself, and I repudiate them — but they’re still family.

  74. 74
    cbear says:

    Religious leader makes inflammatory statement(s)…

    Amazing. Nobody could have predicted that.

  75. 75
    ThymeZone says:

    The question it seems to me is whether Freedom of Speech includes Freedom to Listen to Speech.

    If we are going to hold listeners reponsible for the speech they listen to, and then penalize them for it, then we have no freedom of speech.

    Please, HarebrainPosts, argue that I’m wrong. Go ahead, make that argument.

  76. 76
    John Cole says:

    Look Senator Clinton is a good person and would make a good president. Senator Obama is a good person who would make a good president. John Cole is a fallen away right winger who like many of the affluent limosine liberals who support Obama is a hypocrite and a race baiter.

    Is there some reverse ninja jitzu going on here that I am not recognizing? How exactly am I race-baiting?

  77. 77
    zzyzx says:

    Hey John, want to upset yourself some more? Five years ago, you might have been one of the people making these claims.

    *runs away quickly before he can kill the messenger*

  78. 78
    Ted says:

    After that brilliant and logical conclusion, I don’t think you should ever again opine on Falwell, Robertson, Hagee or any other religious twit.

    Dug Jay is retarded. He thinks attributing Falwell/Robertson/Hagee’s political beliefs to candidates they support = simply calling out their bile for its own sake.

    Memo to Dug Jay: If I say that Hagee is a bigot for many of his beliefs, I’m not actually saying anything about McCain’s beliefs. Just Hagee’s.

  79. 79
    Wilfred says:

    I’ve been following the Obama is a Muslim thing for nearly 10 months. There’s no way that Obama would ever get any of the bigot vote – comfortably Republican for a generation – so the only logical target of this meme is the Jewish vote, once reliably progressive but now increasingly reactionary. The mere expression of compassion for Palestinians, for example, resulted in swarming attacks against Obama.

    I don’t deal with the ignorant fucks that Cole reads. But Democrats better not push too hard against Wright. There is an historical undercurrent here that is apparent to people familiar with a certain story. The great hope for republicans is to drive a wedge between the traditional alignment of Blacks and Jews, don’t help them.

  80. 80
    Mighty Forego says:

    “How exactly am I race-baiting?”

    By claiming that every criticism of Obama is racially motivated, something you’ve been doing for weeks. It sucks, its racist, and I wish you would stop.

  81. 81
    zzyzx says:

    This is crap. I hate what Wright’s saying, but I know, 100%, the quandary Obama’s in, and how much of an insidious trap it can be. I’ve had family say things about “white people” and “Mexicans” that made me blanch, made me distance myself, and I repudiate them—but they’re still family.

    That seems to be the approach that Obama is taking and I think it makes sense. As long as Obama hasn’t ever said anything along those lines, it’s hard to imagine anyone being convinced who didn’t want to be.

  82. 82
    ThymeZone says:

    I’m not actually saying anything about McCain’s beliefs. Just Hagee’s.

    Yes … but: McCain is pandering to the Hageeans.

    Obama is not pandering to the Farrakhanists. Not hugging them to get a photo op and then pretending to distance himself from them.

    McCain will kiss any monstrosity for a vote, pander to anyone, suck up to the guy who spread lies about him to win a primary, just to siphon off a few votes. McCain is a whore, and Obama is a real man, a leader who doesn’t need to suck up to assholes like Hagee or anyone else to skim off votes.

    You know, for a guy who stood up to torture, McCain doesn’t seem to have much courage any more. He can’t even stand up to torture now in his own frigging country.

  83. 83
    LiberalTarian says:

    Huh. Well, I’ve been gone a while, but somehow, time has stood still at BJ.

    I can’t wait for primary season to be over and have one of those fucking jerks as the candidate already. Somehow I just don’t see anyone singing Kumbaya. It also looks like a whole bunch of people who swore Dems would take back the Whitehouse are going to sit at home and pout cuz their favorite isn’t going to be president for fucks’ sake. If you had told me last year this whole thing was going to devolve into cults of personality I couldn’t have believed you.

    Gawddammit. I thought Democrats were the smart ones. Jumpin’ fuckin’ hell.

    And, John, believing in God doesn’t make you a moron. Thinking God is something you can wrap up in a doctoral dissertation or a holy book, well, yeah that’s moronic. Voting Republican for most of your adult life, well, that might be a touch moronic.

  84. 84
    Ted says:

    Obama is not going to be a friend for Israel, he’s going to be like Bush for for the Palestinians…I have not doubt that Humas have been funneling money to him but I can’t prove it yet…but I do think GWB and Cheney know more about Obama then what they are letting out at this time.

    Jesus Christ in a pantsuit. The commenters at Hillaryis44.com are leftwing freepers. I didn’t know they existed until now. Is this kind of paranoia and delusional fantasy going on at Democratic Underground as well?

    Hopefully this commenter will take a trip to the ME and follow up on his leads about Hamas giving obama money.

  85. 85

    Anyway, I have a theory that former Republicans who are fed up with the current GOP harbor quite a bit more disgust and disdain for the wingnuts than even the lefties do.

    I imagine its like being a reformed smoker.

  86. 86
    Laertes says:

    Jesus H. Christ. Would ONE of you Hillbots please say something interesting? You don’t even believe the stupid shit you’re spewing. You’re just typing anything you think will get a response.

    This is so inept it doesn’t even rise to the level of trolling. It’s like getting kicked out of a party for standing in the middle of the room screaming “FUCK FUCK FUCK” at the top of your lungs, and then high-fiving each other afterwards for your clever and subtle transgression of the other partygoers bourgeois sensibilities.

  87. 87
    Dennis - SGMM says:

    …who like many of the affluent limosine liberals who support Obama is a hypocrite and a race baiter.

    Is Obama a hypocrite because he derailed the coronation?
    Do you realize that the phrase “limousine liberals” was coined by the Republicans?
    Do you understand the definition of race baiting?
    Do you comprehend, that your Senator Clinton, who is a good person and would make a good president voted to hand a loaded gun to an idiot not once but twice?

  88. 88
    borehole says:

    Forego–

    Limosine liberals? LIMOSINE LIBERALS?

    Have you crossed space and time to be here tonight? Are you writing your comments in the “enter initials” line of a coin-op Galaxian machine?

    It’s the 21st century, man. We’re stretch-Hummer liberals now.

  89. 89
    Alden says:

    For there to be any analogy between Wright and Ferraro, you have to explain how Wrights statements might advantage Obama in his contest with Clinton.

    And, well…

  90. 90
    caustics says:

    affluent limosine(sic) liberals

    Does chipping in on a limousine with co-workers to see Metallica count? I hate being lumped in with dirty hippies.

  91. 91
    jaime says:

    By claiming that every criticism of Obama is racially motivated

    So when Obama is basically called an affirmative action case/ coke dealer (no just user) / HUSSEIN HUSSEIN HUSSEIN HUSSEIN / super secret stealth muslim / Jesse Jackson 2.0 by Clinton surrogates it’s his campaigns fault for seeing racism there?

  92. 92
    Laertes says:

    I’ll say this much for conservatives: They usually know how to spell “limousine.”

  93. 93
    Ted says:

    Can we get a moratorium on nutpicking from a spoof site run by wingnut Obama trolls?

    Fine myiq2xu. How’s this for ya?

    Every last one, taken from HillaryClinton.com. Damn near every one racist and religious fear-mongering.

  94. 94
    LiberalTarian says:

    Bah. A pox on both our houses.

    Oh, wait …

  95. 95
    Jorge says:

    Someone else pointed this out earlier but this is not bad for Obama…

    The point that is being pushed in the mind of voters right now is that Obama is so Christian that we have to worry that he might be too influenced by his pastor.

    Obama is a devoted Christian and his pastor says crazy stuff sometime he doesn’t agree with. All of the sudden, Obama is very relatable to a whole ton of Christians – especially evangelicals – who are open to voting for Democrats.

  96. 96
    myiq2xu says:

    From Corrente:

    Mickey Kaus at Slate notes that Andrew Sullivan preceded Geraldine Ferraro’s scurrilous racial comments by several months.

    Kaus cites many of the inflammatory, racially-charged phrases Sullivan used in a piece from the Atlantic that can’t help but remind one of the most repugnant moments of The Birth of a Nation:

    If one of the “foremost” things Obama offers voters is the “face of a brown-skinned man whose father was an African, who grew up in Indonesia, etc.” doesn’t that mean “he would not be in this position if he were white”? If you like Obama because he might “rebrand” America to the world—well, he wouldn’t accomplish that simply by having his election televised, as Sullivan suggests he would, if he were white, would he?

    Is Hillary going to stand by idly while Sullivan fuels her agenda of race-baiting, or will she speak out against Grand Wizard Andy?

    I think Hillary will be happy to throw Sully under the bus.

  97. 97
    libarbarian says:

    McCain will kiss any monstrosity for a vote, pander to anyone, suck up to the guy who spread lies about him to win a primary, just to siphon off a few votes.

    Considering the horrible tactical situation the GOP is in this election I think its a bit presumptuous to attribute this to an inherent personal quality of McCain and not to the practical need, given their situation, not to estrange the most reliable GOP voting block.

    I think you’re on much firmer ground to criticize the media for not drawing remotely comparable attention to the two.

  98. 98
    Ted says:

    limosine liberals

    See, this phrase instantly alerts me to a Randroid or Glenn Beck listener. The phrase is so idiotic it makes me cringe for the person saying it out of embarrassment. If you’re a very wealthy liberal (hence you get around in a limousine), you’re apparently a BIG FAT HYPOCRITE for advocating your mega-income-level taxes be raised because you’ve got plenty and you don’t like poverty. Somehow. They can’t really explain it, but they believe it with all their soul.

    It’s the same bizarre argument that John Edwards should STFU about the poor so much since he’s got so many millions. I guess it computes somehow in their divide-by-zero brains.

  99. 99
    jaime says:

    Obama is a devoted Christian and his pastor says crazy stuff sometime he doesn’t agree with. All of the sudden, Obama is very relatable to a whole ton of Christians – especially evangelicals – who are open to voting for Democrats.

    The problem is he’s an “angry black pastor”, saying very uncomfortable things from a “angry black point of view”. This isn’t your standard ‘Jews will be converted once they clear the promised land of Muslims and all the good people will be exhumed feet first into heaven’ kind of nuttiness. This is “angry black” nuttiness. And that scares a lot of Republicans and many in Hillary’s archie bunker coalition.

  100. 100
    John O says:

    Is this like EdTV or that other movie where a man’s life was filmed without his knowledge? Am I secretly being filmed as I am driven into madness by these morons? Is that what is going on? Someone please make it stop.

    Funny, I’ve considered the same thing myself.

    It’s an odd thing going on right now.

    The Editors have this right. Right on.

  101. 101
    ThymeZone says:

    I think you’re on much firmer ground

    Yeah, I take your meaning, but I live in Arizona, and 26 years of watching McCain operate have given me a little different view of things. The man is a whore.

  102. 102
    John O says:

    Damn, the link worked in “preview.”

    Right on was a damn link, dammit.

    http://thepoorman.net/2008/03/13/authenticity/

  103. 103
    John O says:

    The better example is “The Truman Show.”

  104. 104
    LiberalTarian says:

    Heh. TBogg rocks.

  105. 105
    John O says:

    Why did yours work, Liberaltarian?

    Is it this shitty Mac I just bought?

  106. 106
    Ted says:

    Whoops, here’s the link for myiq2xu.

    If it actually works this time. Anyway, comments and diaries from HillaryClinton.com absolutely loaded with the same crap as Hillaryis44.com. It’s her damn campaign website.

  107. 107

    The problem is he’s an “angry black pastor”, saying very uncomfortable things from a “angry black point of view”. This isn’t your standard ‘Jews will be converted once they clear the promised land of Muslims and all the good people will be exhumed feet first into heaven’ kind of nuttiness. This is “angry black” nuttiness.

    Of course, I’ve already seen a few posts about Obama “forgetting” he is half-white. The same criticism you heard from some corners of the Right Wing when Halle Berry accepted her Academy Award and “forgot” to acknowledge she was half-white. Much craziness will ensue between now and the GE if Obama get the nomination.

    Things could be worse! We could have a dry drunk as President who thinks combat is “romantic” (unless. of course, he himself had to fight). Selah.

  108. 108
    Ted says:

    No, John O, mine didn’t work either the first time. It has in the past. And worked in the preview.

  109. 109
    John Cole says:

    By claiming that every criticism of Obama is racially motivated, something you’ve been doing for weeks. It sucks, its racist, and I wish you would stop.

    I have done nothing of the sort. Serve up some links or STFU.

  110. 110

    Here’s some damn fine snark from a TPM reader:

    What drives me crazy is how this could have been avoided so easily if Wright was the slightest bit media-savvy. Had he merely controlled his tongue and limited himself to advocating an attack on Iran to encourage massive worldwide Muslim attacks leading to a fulfillment of the biblical prophecy of end-times and bringing about Armageddon and the summary slaughter of every Jew, Muslim, Catholic, and non-believer on the planet while rapturing him and his flock up to heaven, then followed it up by denouncing Catholics as cult members and blaming Hurricane Katrina on gay people, this story wouldn’t be metastasizing like this. One five minute milquetoast repudiation by Obama and it would all be behind him.

    But what does Wright do instead? He spews this vile “God damn America” bile. What a psycho.

    Heh.

  111. 111
    cbear says:

    I just watched video of this Wright guy’s HORRENDOUS, AMURICA-BASHING SERMONS and have a few thoughts.

    Let’s review:
    America has supported state-sponsored terrorism in other countries for decades. Check.

    Many people hate America for its intervention in their country’s affairs. Check.

    Some of those people probably felt justified in attacking America. Check.

    Many black people have died due to American neglect of their communities needs and safety. Check.

    Black people still have to overcome hurdles that white people don’t. Check.

    I think that covers the basics, right?

    Well shit, I’m a middle-aged white guy and am firmly convinced that Dick and Lil’ Chimpy would put gonnorhea in my drinking water if it served their interests—so I can basically see where he’s coming from, and why many black people agree.

  112. 112
    caustics says:

    Mighty Forego Says:

    “How exactly am I race-baiting?”

    By claiming that every criticism of Obama is racially motivated, something you’ve been doing for weeks. It sucks, its racist, and I wish you would stop.

    Sorry Mighty Forego, your horse already lost. She pulled up lame…get used to it.

  113. 113
    J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford says:

    Obama had a Jewish mother, Muslim father, is himself a Christian and has been asked to reject & denounce Nation of Islam figurehead Farrakhan…oh, and he’s a distant cousin of Beelzebub himself, Dick Cheney.

    Well, at least he’s not Catholic.

  114. 114
    LiberalTarian says:

    John O Says:

    Why did yours work, Liberaltarian?

    Is it this shitty Mac I just bought?

    No, I had to fix it because forgot to use “Link” instead of “Ext. Link” when I first highlighted my link text (hope that is intelligible). You’ll have to ask John Cole why he puts both buttons up. Or, it has nothing to do with that at all, and the site was webfarting (at first the post didn’t take at all, and although I resisted re-loading, which would have posted it twice, it had seemed lost at first).

  115. 115
    Ted says:

    Regarding the cognitive dissonance between OBAMA’S a MUSLIM! and OBAMA’S a CRAZY BLACK CHRISTIAN!, I think some might be missing what goes on in a lot of the Archie Bunker type brains out there. I’ve know more than a few people who actually think black people’s brains work differently than theirs. That it is actually possible for a black person to be both a rabid jihadist AND one of those crazy Kwanzaa angry black Christians. They seem to think black people’s brains are an enigma. I’d bet money none of this will work with most people under 50.

  116. 116
    Innocent Bystander says:

    I look forward to our mainstream media spend an equal amount of time wringing their hands and showing us videotapes of speeches from Hagee and Parlsey as well as every other Republican Fundementalist nutball who endorses McCain.

    Equal time, right?

  117. 117
    MikeF says:

    John Cole, please refrain from calling them “douchebags”.

    Really, would you want them next to a vagina, just on the off chance they might reproduce somehow?

    In the future, please call them Colostomy Bags, as it is much more descriptive since they are containers for shit.

    Thank you.

  118. 118

    As a non-religious person I’ve read quite a bit of it, I tend to take Jefferson’s stand on Christianity, cut out the crap and use the man’s own words and you’ve got something. If one were to do that and apply those words to US actions you might be hard put to get to “God Bless America.” I may love my country enough to devote large chunks of my time to its improvement, but flatly:
    Slavery, Jim Crow, kick minorities to the economic curb
    Torture
    Imprison large percentages of the population
    Theocratic hate legislation
    Pre-emptive war
    War
    Etc…
    If you take that Christ guy seriously the word Damn comes to mind. If you can’t take that, change your religion or change your actions.

    I’ll be astonished if this doesn’t hurt Obama’s votes. Political reality is what it is. This is why religion and politics is such a stupid mix, but we’re scarcely past that.

  119. 119
    J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford says:

    cbear Says:

    I just watched video of this Wright guy’s HORRENDOUS, AMURICA-BASHING SERMONS and have a few thoughts.

    Let’s review:
    America has supported state-sponsored terrorism in other countries for decades. Check.

    Many people hate America for its intervention in their country’s affairs. Check.

    Some of those people probably felt justified in attacking America. Check.

    Many black people have died due to American neglect of their communities needs and safety. Check.

    Black people still have to overcome hurdles that white people don’t. Check.

    I think that covers the basics, right?…

    March 14th, 2008 at 7:29 pm

    Yes, but he said all those things in a very, very angry voice. That’s just not how it’s done.

  120. 120
    Mighty Forego says:

    “I’ll say this much for conservatives: They usually know how to spell “limousine.”

    Sorry, my typing doesn’t work as fast as my brain. But by pointing to typos in cooments to a blog, you are “officially” entitled to membership in the Get a Life club.

  121. 121
    MikeF says:

    Mighty, your typing must be slow.

    “Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience”

  122. 122

    You dumbocrats still don’t get it. If a right whinger pokes you in the eye you don’t apologize to them for your eye getting in the way of their finger. You kick them in the nads. Obama is now playing their game and they’re going to eat him for lunch. Best start getting used to saying President McCain.

  123. 123
    John O says:

    If Jesus himself were to show up tomorrow and perform a few miracles, today’s GOP would be putting him in jail, torturing, and widely criticizing him as a DFH.

    This seems pretty obvious.

  124. 124
    John O says:

    I think Obama is a little smarter than that, Robert.

    I know the south side of Chicago, and I played basketball for most of my adult life. “Trash talking” is part of the game.

    He’ll do all right. And this from someone who doesn’t give all that much of a shit as long as someone other than a Republican wins the WH.

    Hillary is outwardly tougher. She’s also just plain capable of mean. I respect it, but don’t enjoy it. I’d be mean too, had I put up with the crap she’s put up with since she hit the national radar.

    But counterpunching is native to S. side Chicagoans.

  125. 125
    caustics says:

    Robert McClelland Says:

    Q: What does a Canadian say when you stomp on his foot?

    A: Sorry.

  126. 126
    Ted says:

    If Jesus himself were to show up tomorrow and perform a few miracles, today’s GOP would be putting him in jail, torturing, and widely criticizing him as a DFH.

    Well, they’d certainly ask him to STFU about the poor and suffering, and especially about that camel/eye of the needle crap. Remember: GOP credo is that you bequeath as many millions or billions to your children as possible.

    Speaking of which, why isn’t Paris Hilton being help up as the poster child of the GOP philosophy of work and productivity?

  127. 127
    Ted says:

    John O, that’s one of the few things I will actually be looking forward to if Hillary does somehow steal the nomination. I will enjoy watching the Clinton machine get to work on McCain. But to see it used to destroy Obama is truly disgusting.

  128. 128
    Laertes says:

    So far I’m liking the way Obama handles all this silly shit. He acts quickly and decisively.

    When Power made an inappropriate remark in public, she was gone within hours. Some Hillbots have kept babbling about it, of course, but the Obama campaign, having done what it’s going to do, has treated the issue as settled, which of course it is.

    When the Wright stuff blew, again Obama acted pretty fast, making a clear and forceful statement, which on the merits of the case, such as they are, is all that he properly ought to do. Again, his opponents in the McCain-Clinton camp will whinge for a time, but he’ll treat the issue as settled, which of course it is.

    Contrast this with, for example, Hillary’s Ferraro problem, or McCain’s Hagee issues. Hillary’s people, true to their nature, first dissembled, then tested public opinion. They kept sending Ferraro out to deliver her virulent payload. Typical of the campaign she was representing, Ferraro couldn’t keep her various stories straight. After waiting to see how the whole thing was playing out in public, the campaign eventually showed Ferraro the door, all the while insisting that they weren’t doing what they were quite obviously doing.

    Pure uncut Clintonism: Unprincipled, indecisive, and ultimately ineffective. The contrast with Obama couldn’t be clearer.

  129. 129
    Xenos says:

    Captain Pedant to the rescue:

    Jim Henley Says:

    You know, this secret Muslim thing is big, actually. Since, and I read this on that Spencer guy’s blog, Muslims are allowed to lie to non-Muslims, anyone who says he’s not a Muslim could be lying. Indeed, is probably lying.

    In case you run across this in the future, the doctrine in question, ‘taqiyya’ is only accepted by the Shia, and historically has only been applied as a means for an adherent of Shi’ism to conceal Shia identity from a Sunni oppressor. Among Sunnis (such as Obama’s ancestors) it would be about as reputable as the Shia one-hour marriages, a/k/a Al-Spitzera.

    It would never be considered appropriate in regard to non-believing oppressors, or where the oppression did not involve risk of death for the deceiving Muslim, or severe harm to an innocent party.

  130. 130
    myiq2xu says:

    I went back and read the Ferraro comment threads.

    Jesus was right; it depends on who’s ox is being gored.

  131. 131
    Zifnab says:

    Obama had a Jewish mother, Muslim father, is himself a Christian and has been asked to reject & denounce Nation of Islam figurehead Farrakhan…oh, and he’s a distant cousin of Beelzebub himself, Dick Cheney.

    Well, at least he’s not Catholic.

    Does that mean we can’t compare him to Kennedy anymore?

  132. 132
    Mighty Forego says:

    “I have done nothing of the sort. Serve up some links or STFU.”

    Well, just for starters:

    “That is what I have grown to see as the not so subtle argument of the Clinton campaign- America isn’t going to vote for a black man in the general election.”

    “Kevin Drum begged people yesterday to stop accusing the Clinton campaign of racism. I think that is a fair request, provided they stop making racist and crypto-racist statements”

    So John, take the above links and shove them up your Bush- voting , race- baiting ass.

  133. 133
    orogeny says:

    I think Obama may have pulled it off. It seems to me that his post today at Huffington strikes just the right chord. He manages to disavow Wright’s inflammatory comments without appearing to dump him for political gain. Very well done.

  134. 134
    Conservatively Liberal says:

    I love my country, but I know that it is far from perfect. Our nation has gone to war to support business interests, we have overthrown governments, supported tin-pot dictators and many other acts that have pissed off some people all around the world. We like to talk the talk, but when it comes to Democracy we don’t walk the walk. There have been wars of necessity in our past, where we did the right thing, but there are far too many instances where we did the wrong thing.

    That is another reason I am for Obama. Just him winning means there will be change, and I am hoping it will be change for the better. Our government needs to stop being the ruthless enforcers for big business and moneyed interests. They like to use our power to get the best price on whatever they are trying to take from another country. We do not deal honestly, we deal dirty and this needs to change. We need to learn to respect and work with other nations. As long as we keep on the path we are, we are only going to make the rest of the world suffer if they have something that we want.

    Wright said nothing that is not the truth, as he sees it. I can respect that, and I think a lot of other Americans will feel the same. I saw Lanny Davis on the tube talking about this, and all I kept hearing as he talked was ‘angry black man’. They are really rolling out all of the stops on the angry black man argument, they want to hang this label on Obama.

    Hmmm, hanging, black, man… Sounds like business as usual in Amerika.

  135. 135
    John O says:

    Ted, you’re right. Politics is the last true blood sport.

    Again, The Editors had a great post on this. Excerpt:

    Ah, fuck the excerpt. No matter what I do, I can’t get the HTML shit to work.

    Read the last paragraph. It’s funny.

    http://thepoorman.net/2008/02/.....gone-wild/

  136. 136
    myiq2xu says:

    Pure uncut Clintonism: Unprincipled, indecisive, and ultimately ineffective. The contrast with Obama couldn’t be clearer.

    20 years as a “spiritual advisor,” denials made when previous questions were asked about the person, then finally, when a video of some objectionable comments surfaces the ties are severed and the person’s view denounced.

    I’d have to agree, the contrast between Clinton and Obama couldn’t be clearer.

  137. 137
    Xenos says:

    MF,

    The issue is not that all the criticisms are racist, just that the racist ones are racists. The ones that are not racist are not criticised as racists, they are generally criticised as stupid, which most of them are.

  138. 138
    Ted says:

    So John, take the above links and shove them up your Bush- voting , race- baiting ass.

    OK, I’ll bite. Those aren’t links, you inept moron, but I recall reading those Cole remarks. Funny that you provide only two. And both were in fact transparently, albeit very subtly, appeals to discontent with black people.

    This truly is a marvel to behold. The Hillbots cannot be reasoned with. Perhaps no one should bother anymore. Just check in on the blogs if/when Obama wins the nomination to see how many need to be on suicide watch.

  139. 139
    Laertes says:

    I will enjoy watching the Clinton machine get to work on McCain.

    Not gonna happen. Should Obama win the nomination, the Clinton machine will sit this one out. Hillary’s next chance at the Presidency in that case would most likely come in 2016. She’ll be a largely forgotten 69-year-old, and during the intervening eight years any number of credible candidates will emerge.

    If Obama loses in November, then Hillary’s campaign for ’12 begins the following week. Her campaign narrative will be simple and powerful: You didn’t nominate me, and you lost what should have been an easy election. Learned your lesson? She’ll be virtually guaranteed the nomination, and one can only assume that McCain will be McCain for four years, ensuring an easy win for any Democrat who comes along in ’12.

    If Obama wins, of course, it’ll be better for the party if he goes on to defeat McCain. But it’d be better for Clinton if he lost. I think we all, Hillbots and Obamatons and Republicans alike, can understand at this point that the idea that Clinton would put party ahead of her own ambitions doesn’t pass the horse-laugh test.

  140. 140
    John Cole says:

    So John, take the above links and shove them up your Bush- voting , race- baiting ass.

    You have no links, you have my analysis of what the Clinton camp is doing- ACTUAL RACE-BAITING. When they make racist statements and play to racial fears, it is not race-baiting to call them out. jesus.

    Taylor Marsh? Is that you?

  141. 141
    Ted says:

    To clarify, “And both were in fact transparently, albeit very subtly, appeals to discontent with black people.” was referring to the Clinton campaign statements Cole was referring to.

  142. 142
    jaime says:

    race- baiting

    Race baiting is
    Obama=Jesse Jackson
    Obama sold cocaine
    Obama is not a muslim, to my knowledge
    Hussein Hussein Hussein
    Obama is an affirmative action case
    Farrakahn hearts Obama

    not

    Hey…maybe there’s a pattern of racial division here.

    So perhaps that word doesn’t mean what you think it means.

  143. 143
    Evilbeard says:

    I just don’t get this at all. Why is what Obama’s preacher said important, at all?

  144. 144
    jaime says:

    denials made when previous questions were asked about the person

    …by Sean Hannity. And now your line of attacks sound very similar.

    Why is what Obama’s preacher said important, at all?

    Because Hillary is LOSING.

  145. 145
    Ted says:

    Stolen from Sully who found it from the columnist Michelle Goldberg (Kingdom Coming, etc):

    Some have suggested the whole thing was part of a Clinton scheme to ratchet up racial tensions in advance of the Pennsylvania primary. That’s possible, but there’s a simpler explanation. Several otherwise admirable, even heroic women seem to identify with Clinton so profoundly that they interpret rejection of her as a personal rebuke. Stung, they accuse Obama supporters of flighty illogic, but there’s a powerful, extra-rational emotional current in their arguments, a flailing in the face of an imagined betrayal. In their anger, they’re lashing out in all kinds of counterproductive ways, doing far more damage to feminism than a Clinton loss ever could.

    Yep, that about sums it up. Fanatical Hillbots will be PERSONALLY insulted if Hillary is unable to steal the nomination. That’s how emotionally invested some of them are (we don’t need to name the few who comment here). And they claim Obama has the “personality cult”.

  146. 146
    Laertes says:

    Oops. I misread you above, Ted. Sorry about that.

  147. 147
    myiq2xu says:

    Race baiting is
    Obama=Jesse Jackson
    Obama sold cocaine
    Obama is not a muslim, to my knowledge
    Hussein Hussein Hussein
    Obama is an affirmative action case
    Farrakahn hearts Obama

    Let’s see:

    Jesse didn’t think the statement was racist.

    Obama admitted using cocaine, a volunteer supporter said that the GOP would ask questions about dealing too, then was promptly thrown under the bus.

    The 60 minutes interview has Hillary saying Obama isn’t a Muslim 8 times, and has to be edited to perpetuate your lie.

    HRC is not the one saying Hussein, Hussein, Hussein, that’s the wingnuts

    Who said Obama is an Affirmative Action case?

    Tim Russert and the wingnuts raised the Farrakhan issue.

    But don’t let reality get in the way of your HillaryHate.

  148. 148
    jake says:

    Shorter Brown Squirts: NEGROES! RUN FOR UR LIVES!1

  149. 149
    Jimmy Jazz says:

    Mark Penn really, really wishes they could cut out the middleman and just play the Michael Richards rant over and over again in their commercials.

    http://www.tmz.com/2006/11/20/.....t-on-tape/

  150. 150
    Mighty Forego says:

    “You have no links, you have my analysis of what the Clinton camp is doing- ACTUAL RACE-BAITING. When they make racist statements and play to racial fears, it is not race-baiting to call them out. jesus.”

    Let’s sum up.

    1. Clinton says something critical about Obama.
    2. Without any logic or evidence, John Cole says that because Obama is a man of color, the Clinton criticisms are “racist and crypto-racist statements”. And that proves once again that Clinton is a bad racist person.
    3. The Mighty Forego says that John Cole is a scumbag because he is using race where it doesn’t exist to defend legitimate critism of Obama or to make Clinton look bad.
    4. John Cole asks The Mighty Forego to support his statements.
    5. In the time of a few minutes the Mighty Forego comes up with two of Cole’s scumbag qutoes proving The Mighty Forego to be dead right.
    6. Cole says these quotes don’t prove anything because they were just his analysis of what Clinton was doing.

    I will repeat, the Democratic party is lucky to have two fine candidates like Clinton and Obama and I will strongly support whoever gets the nomination. I will rise above the fact that so many Obama supporters, like John, are a bunch of whining, racist scumbags.

  151. 151
    Laertes says:

    That’s not bad, Forego. For a different view, consult the facts.

    1. Clinton’s campaign uses appeals to racism.
    2. Cole calls them on it.
    3. You accuse Cole of making shit up.
    4. Cole denies this.
    5. You give examples of Cole quite rightly calling Clinton out for appealing to racism.
    6. Everyone points and laughs at you.

  152. 152
    KT says:

    John Cole:

    There is no such thing as god, you fairy tale believing morons.

    If god does not exist andIf Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton and John McCain all believe in god thenAll our presidential candidates are “fairy tale believing morons.”

    God help us Quantum foam help us.

  153. 153
    John O says:

    I will not use Andrew in any other terms than I will use Taylor.

    Neither of them is capable of being objective.

  154. 154
    Ted says:

    Let’s see:

    Jesse didn’t think the statement was racist.

    Don’t know when Jackson was asked or what he said, but Bill’s comment was basically explaining why he thought it only natural for Obama to win S. Carolina. As in, well, yeah, he’ll get the black vote. You must not be very old. Clinton is extremely good at implied messages, and it seems most people aware of the quote (except Hillbots) understood what it meant: sure he’ll get the black vote. But that won’t work in the general! Play stupid if you want.

    The 60 minutes interview has Hillary saying Obama isn’t a Muslim 8 times, and has to be edited to perpetuate your lie.

    “As far as I know” inserted right at the end by Hillary.

    HRC is not the one saying Hussein, Hussein, Hussein, that’s the wingnuts

    I know you ignore inconvenient comments to/about you, but did you click the goddamn link I posted specifically for you above? I guess HillaryClinton.com (her own fucking campaign website) is absolutely infested with “wingnuts”.

    Who said Obama is an Affirmative Action case?

    Geraldine Ferraro: “If he was a white man he would not be in this position.” As in, he’s sailing smooth on a media and White Guilt free ride because he’s a minority.

    Tim Russert and the wingnuts raised the Farrakhan issue.

    Fair enough, you’ve got that one.

    But don’t let reality get in the way of your HillaryHate.

    We’ll try not to let our “HillaryHate” (who I’d vote for in a second if she’s the nominee, along with every Obama supporter I’ve ever talked to about it), get in the way of your ecstasy roll on Clinton.

  155. 155
    jaime says:

    Jesse didn’t think the statement was racist.

    So? There was no real connection between Obama and Jackson except that they were black…and won South Carolina. Remember Bill said this out of the blue.

    Obama admitted using cocaine, a volunteer supporter said that the GOP would ask questions about dealing too, then was promptly thrown under the bus.

    And Mark Penn got on TV to drill home the fact that Obama had a shady coke filled past.

    Hillary saying Obama isn’t a Muslim 8 times

    …to her knowledge.

    Who said Obama is an Affirmative Action case?

    Geraldine Ferraro, Archie Bunker’s congresswoman, when she says that Obama is lucky to be black. If you say that your black supervisor is lucky he’s black you are implying his race is a factor in his job placement. If you don’t see how that could be the you are either stupid or willfully ignorant.

    Buy you’re right. It’s all Hillaryhate. I just hate Hillary just for the sake of hating her. Because she’s a woman, as far as I know. Or her health care policy. Yeah, that’s it. Or I hate peace in Northern Ireland and Kosovo. Or Sinbad.

    Or maybe I dislike her selfish sense of entitlement. How every speech of hers is about “me” and “I” and not “we” and “us”. Or seems to be actively campaigning for the Republican opponent. Or the fact that she tells the world she’s going to employ the kitchen sink strategy and her supporters are being soaked by leaking pipes, yet can’t understand why people may dislike her.

  156. 156
    myiq2xu says:

    For the last few months I have seen thousands of comments filled with pious praise for Obama and sanctimonious slander of Hillary. I’ve been subject to numerous insults and jeers for defending Hillary.

    But the last few days have revealed that there are no deeply held moral, ethical and/or political principles involved.

    Rank hypocrisy is behind all the pearl-clutching and hyperventilating over Hillary; selfish rationalization is the basis for supporting Obama.

    Massive fail. MASSIVE

  157. 157
    jaime says:

    Oh, and BTW, all this here. This animosity. This sniping. This anger and resentment. Which Democrat do you think this helps?

    Give you a hint. It’s the only way SHE can win.

  158. 158
    Laertes says:

    shorter myiq2xu: “I’m serving up plates of steaming bullshit, and nobody is eating it!

  159. 159
    Ted says:

    For the lazy myiqcan’tbebothered:

    Link.

    Go read. Them come back and tell us how those aren’t die-hard Hillary fans saying things I would normally only expect to see on Free Republic, and Hillary’s own campaign website. Sure, the site can’t be completely policed as with any like that. But your point is that only rightwingers say those kinds of things.

    You’re completely full of shit on that, but you’ll never admit it.

  160. 160
    Tim (the Other One) says:

    I think the Founding Fathers made very clear the separation of Kwanzaa and State. They’d had enough of Kwanzaa in the old country.

  161. 161
    jaime says:

    the basis for supporting Obama

    No…THIS is the basis for my supporting Obama. Not a single mention of Hillary there.

  162. 162
    Ted says:

    For the last few months I have seen thousands of comments filled with pious praise for Obama and sanctimonious slander of Hillary.

    Fine, you Uranium-dense object. Show us ONE FUCKING COMMENT out of ANYONE in Obama’s campaign that has ever even HINTED that Hillary’s gender has anything to do with anything. Positive or negative. You know, something like, “She wouldn’t be where she is now if she were a man.” That kind of thing. I’ve never even heard an Obama surrogate mention the obvious support she gets from women as somehow something to write off for Obama. Show us the sexism raging over at Obama’s official campaign website, and throughout his public supporters.

    You can’t. So maybe it’s time to STFU and slink away before you make yourself look even more brain-dead. Go hang with the “Obama’s getting money from HUMAS[sic]!!” folks.

  163. 163
    Darkness says:

    He wants them to use those “proper” Christmast cards like my aunt uses… the ones with glitter that gets all over everything and a Teutonic Jewish family smiling out at the viewer.

    Sheesh.

    Honestly as an Atheist, I’d be much happier if everyone just sent me a Chocolate Jesus for Christmas. All inclusive and edible without any holy wand waving.

  164. 164
    Calouste says:

    We like to talk the talk, but when it comes to Democracy we don’t walk the walk.

    Indeed. Bush’s “spreading democracy around the world” is code for the same thing as “fighting the communists” was before the fall of the Soviet Union, namely “installing puppet regimes”.

  165. 165
    Ted says:

    I honestly don’t know what to say to these people anymore. I think Hillary would make a decent president, and I would gouge my eyes out before voting for the Republican in this or most races. And the truly amazing thing going on here? Those of us “slandering” Hillary are complaining about subtle appeals to racism shat out by her campaign. We’re not even criticizing her as a candidate. And yet the Hillbots would prefer you just SHUT UP about what is obvious to everyone with a brain.

    Hillary’s strategy has become obvious. At some point, through primary election results, they figured out that she does noticeably better among low-income whites. Exactly the kind who are more likely to resent things like Affirmative Action on the usually false delusion that they’ve been wronged by it themselves. So: appeal to that. Imply that Obama is a sort of electoral Affirmative Action hire who other than his skin color wouldn’t have gotten the job.

    So myiq2xu? Bill Clinton would think you’re stupid for not being capable of understanding a strategy he likely came up with. The man is brilliant, after all.

  166. 166
    myiq2xu says:

    So? There was no real connection between Obama and Jackson except that they were black…and won South Carolina. Remember Bill said this out of the blue.

    In recent contested SC primaries, the winners were Jackson (84 & 88,) Clinton (92,) and Edwards (04.) Bill praised the last winner besides himself who wasn’t still in the race.

    And Mark Penn got on TV to drill home the fact that Obama had a shady coke filled past.

    Penn kept trying to change the subject but the bloviating gasbag hosting the show wanted to talk about Obama’s drug use.

    …to her knowledge.

    (sigh) The zombie lie that never dies.

    From the March 2 edition of CBS’ 60 Minutes:

    KROFT: You don’t believe that Senator Obama is a Muslim?

    CLINTON: Of course not. I mean, that’s — you know, there is no basis for that. You know, I take him on the basis of what he says. And, you know, there isn’t any reason to doubt that.

    KROFT: And you said you’d take Senator Obama at his word that he’s not a Muslim.

    CLINTON: Right. Right.

    KROFT: You don’t believe that he’s a Muslim —

    CLINTON: No. No. Why would I? There’s no —

    KROFT: — or implying, right?

    CLINTON: No, there is nothing to base that on, as far as I know.

    KROFT: It’s just scurrilous —

    CLINTON: Look, I have been the target of so many ridiculous rumors. I have a great deal of sympathy for anybody who gets, you know, smeared with the kind of rumors that go on all the time.

  167. 167
    myiq2xu says:

    Fine, you Uranium-dense object. Show us ONE FUCKING COMMENT out of ANYONE in Obama’s campaign that has ever even HINTED that Hillary’s gender has anything to do with anything.

    Show me where I said anyone in Obama’s campaign said that.

  168. 168
    caustics says:

    Rank hypocrisy is behind all the pearl-clutching and hyperventilating over Hillary; selfish rationalization is the basis for supporting Obama.

    Whatever. No doubt your gush of childish gloating over Ohio and Texas was a real turn-on for the Rush/Hannity/Bush ditto-heads that want to see your party FAIL.

    You’re a fucking tool.

  169. 169

    If there is a bigger set of douchebags on the internet than Dan Riehl

    I suggested Riehl for the mock list a while back, yet your regulars (including specifically Jen) called me crazy.

    Was I wrong?

  170. 170
    Laertes says:

    myiq, you’re gonna have to troll better than that if you want a lot of bites.

  171. 171

    BTW the freep of the poll worked out great.

  172. 172
    Ted says:

    Show me where I said anyone in Obama’s campaign said that.

    “Slandering.”

    Up thread. The only “slandering” of Hillary are complaints about actual, obvious to anyone with a brain, subtle race-raising public statements by Hillary, Bill, that hideous blob known as Mark Penn, or other campaign surrogates. And yes, that includes the top fundraiser Ferraro.

  173. 173
    jcricket says:

    What’s this? Obama Christian preacher is a muslim who he hates America? Well, at least he isn’t black. Wait, what? Next thing you know you’ll be telling me Obama is black too. What! No way. That’s not possible. He’s so articulate.

    Man, you learn new things every day on the Internets.

    Back to my work destroying the Democratic party by helping out Hillary.

  174. 174
    Conservatively Liberal says:

    How many times in the past have we heard some right wing preacher say one event or another was god punishing America for baby murdering abortionists, teh ghey people, libruls and DemocRATS? How quickly we forget that there are plenty of examples of Americans shooting off their mouths and spewing hate against fellow Americans.

    If there is a god, I bet he threw up his hands and walked away from this planet a long time ago. No need for Armageddon, we have created our own hell on earth and there is nobody worth saving anyway. All I hear is ‘the bible/koran/torah/whatever tells us to love the non-believer’, and all we do is hate and kill each other in the name of god.

    The saying is that money is the root of all evil, but I think religion itself is the root of quite a bit of evil. I was raised a Roman Catholic, went to a Catholic school, and was an altar boy for four years, but as I got older I saw the inconsistencies in what was taught and reality that I became disillusioned. I studied many other religions, but they are all variations on the same theme, just with different focus points.

    I would like to think that there is a god, but if there is I can’t help but think that he was nuts for creating us. He must have had a bad day. ;)

  175. 175
    myiq2xu says:

    I suggested Riehl for the mock list a while back, yet your regulars (including specifically Jen) called me crazy.

    Was I wrong?

    About Jen or Riehl?

    How ya been? Haven’t seen you much lately.

  176. 176
    Ted says:

    selfish rationalization is the basis for supporting Obama.

    Oh, and I forgot to mention, and it needs to be highlighted here for everyone to see. The above comment? Are you really going to do this to your argument? You sit here and valiantly defend your heiress to the throne, and you’re going to write off Obama supporters as people engaging in “selfish rationalization”? Because honestly, I’ve never seen anyone here say such a dismissive and frankly condescending thing about the “basis” for supporting Hillary. No, we’re capable of admitting that there are perfectly valid reasons for supporting her over Obama. Apparently Hillbots are loco and can’t think of any legitimate reason for supporting Obama. I guess that comes with Hillary’s strategy of dismissing everyone who didn’t vote for her in the primary.

    Keep digging that hole!

  177. 177
    myiq2xu says:

    The only “slandering” of Hillary are complaints

    Slander: false and malicious claims that harm a persons reputation.

    Ted = massive fail

  178. 178
    Laertes says:

    Don’t forget the rules of Troll, guys:

    If your response is longer than the post you’re responding to, the troll has won.

  179. 179

    […] But not for the conservatives. Oh, they’re still mouth-foamy and stuff. John Cole has a good roundup of the lunacy, including this beauty from Dan Riehl: Also, if that’s the case and Obama is a disciple of Wrights, exactly what type of change does Obama have in mind when it comes to race relations in America? The church also celebrates Kwanzaa. I wonder, is this something Obama intends to continue if he’s elected president? His holiday cards are pretty generic … for a committed Christian. […]

  180. 180

    Either. But ya know, Jen was pretty hateful in her response to me, but I was right about Riehl. Always have been. That John fails to put him on the mock list shows his dishonesty . . .

    Crap that was probably too harsh.

    Put Riehl on the mock list, John. Or don’t. Maybe he’s a little man with a little head that just makes memeorandom because he’s insightful?

  181. 181
    MikeF says:

    We will stop telling the truth about Hillary and her good buddy McCain when they stop lying about us.

    “Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience”

  182. 182

    The latter “he” refers to Riehl, for clarity.

    Riehl has always been in the realm of hater, if not stupid.

    The way he flung his brother around should have been reason enough for his comments on life to mean nothing. But he lives on.

  183. 183
    myiq2xu says:

    That John fails to put him on the mock list shows his dishonesty . . .

    If John put everyone he mocks on the mock list he would have to pay for more server space.

  184. 184
    Splitting Image says:

    “You dumbocrats still don’t get it. If a right whinger pokes you in the eye you don’t apologize to them for your eye getting in the way of their finger. You kick them in the nads. Obama is now playing their game and they’re going to eat him for lunch. Best start getting used to saying President McCain.”

    /kicks Robert McClelland in the nads

  185. 185
    myiq2xu says:

    But ya know, Jen was pretty hateful in her response to me

    I got sick of him/her being smarmy nice to my face and then talking smack when he/she thought I wasn’t around.

  186. 186
    ACK says:

    No, we’re capable of admitting that there are perfectly valid reasons for supporting her over Obama. Apparently Hillbots are loco and can’t think of any legitimate reason for supporting Obama.

    Actually, there are some numbers out now that support this. Look at these numbers from this new PEW poll –

    10% of Democrats who support Obama would vote for McCain if Hillary is the candidate.

    25% of Democrats who support Hillary would vote for McCain if Obama is the candidate.

    http://people-press.org/report.....ageID=1254

  187. 187
    Splitting Image says:

    Question:

    Is there any relationship between Rev. Wright’s church and these guys?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X77R_prkCkg

    The message seems to be the same.

  188. 188
    myiq2xu says:

    The way he flung his brother around should have been reason enough for his comments on life to mean nothing. But he lives on.

    Honesty, integrity and moral principles seem to be the inverse of blogospheric success and longevity.

  189. 189

    I got sick of him/her being smarmy nice to my face and then talking smack when he/she thought I wasn’t around.

    The cuteness factor really irritated my. It was all like “I’m Jen. LOVE me.” and went downhill from there.

    Spit Img what’s that? I’m at work and can’t get it.

  190. 190

    I got sick of him/her being smarmy nice to my face and then talking smack when he/she thought I wasn’t around.

    The cuteness factor really irritated me. It was all like “I’m Jen. LOVE me.” and went downhill from there.

    Spit Img what’s that? I’m at work and can’t get it.

  191. 191
    ThymeZone says:

    CNN) – Former Clinton State Department official Greg Craig continued to take aim at Hillary Clinton’s foreign policy claims Friday, telling the National Journal that the former first lady has “grossly exaggerated the nature of her experience.”

    “If you’re running for president on the basis of your claims of experience, when you then cite examples, you should be careful to be accurate,” Craig said. “The evidence should be accurate. And my point is that Senator Clinton and her supporters have in serious ways overstated, if not grossly exaggerated, the nature of her experience.”

    Probably posted this to the wrong thread earlier. But seriously …. ba da bing …. is it still too early in the campaign to ask the Hillarites to explain the experience thing? How is she qualified again? You know, that Ready on Day One bullshit, and the 3 am deal?

    Okay, when she brought Peace With Honor to Northern Ireland, is that where she crossed the threshold?

  192. 192
    ThymeZone says:

    Honesty, integrity and moral principles

    Heh. You might want to pick topics you know something about, Mike.

  193. 193
    myiq2xu says:

    How is she qualified again? You know, that Ready on Day One bullshit, and the 3 am deal?

    Because she spent so many nights wide-awake at 3am, wondering where the hell Bill was!

    Oh, wait, I’m not an Obamalama ding-dong.

    Nevermind

  194. 194

    Jim wrote above: “Muslims are allowed to lie to non-Muslims…”

    Sort of like Republicans, eh? Plus they can lie to themselves too.

  195. 195
    myiq2xu says:

    You might want to pick topics you know something about, Mike.

    Mine were surgically removed in law school.

    It’s a requirement.

  196. 196

    […] I’ll be back shortly. In the meantime, you should read these guys. John Cole is frequently brilliant. […]

  197. 197
    ThymeZone says:

    Because she spent so many nights wide-awake at 3am, wondering where the hell Bill was!

    Har har har, great answer. Now, could you point me to the real answer? Because, you know, nobody has seen this mysterious explanation.

    You do have one, right?

    I mean, this whole last 6 weeks hasn’t just been an exercise in you biting ankles, now, has it? You actually HAVE a reason for supporting HBeast? You really can explain the experience thing?

  198. 198
    ThymeZone says:

    Mine were surgically removed in law school.

    Ow. At least I hope they let you take them home in a jar.

  199. 199
    Krista says:

    Honestly as an Atheist, I’d be much happier if everyone just sent me a Chocolate Jesus for Christmas. All inclusive and edible without any holy wand waving.

    That would be so incredibly awesome.

    I suggested Riehl for the mock list a while back, yet your regulars (including specifically Jen) called me crazy.

    Was I wrong?

    I find that very odd, as Dan Riehl has been an object of intense mockery around here even well before John’s conversion à la Schiavo. You don’t happen to have a link for that particular incident, just to satisfy my morbid curiousity, do you?

    Now that I think about it, I think Dan Riehl was on there prior to some WordPress issues that caused John to lose all of his links.

  200. 200
    Ted says:

    Remember folks, according to myiq2xu, we who are supporting Obama have only ONE “basis” for that: “Selfish rationalization”.

    Myiq? Are you on Hillary’s campaign? Because you’re using the same strategy regarding Obama supporters as she does: You didn’t vote for me? Fuck you!

  201. 201
    cbear says:

    thousands of comments filled with pious praise for Obama and sanctimonious slander of Hillary. I’ve been subject to numerous insults and jeers for defending Hillary.

    IMO, most reasonably intelligent, reasonably objective people can see that HRC and her managers have run a pretty shitty campaign and, in response to MUP’s gaining the upper-hand, have resorted to a number of divisive and repugnant tactics to reverse his momentum.

    That judgement seems to be borne out in the Dem party writ large–if delegate counts, polls, and the popular vote to date are any indication.

    Ergo, when you enter a forum where reasonably intelligent, reasonably objective people discuss politics and try to convince them not to believe their own eyes– that the wetness they feel is rain instead of piss—-it should come as no suprise that you get beaten about the head and shoulders on a regular basis.

    Finally, I read this blog everyday and as far as I can tell, probably 90% of the people here at BJ have an overwhelming and overarching desire to take the rethug dick out of our collective asses and will vote for either of the two Dem candidates in the GE, regardless of personal choice in the primary.

    How say you, myiq?

  202. 202

    I just watched a political pro, a US Senator’s Chief of Staff, get treated very rudely on the net for being a Hillary supporter. We know each other and I once had reason to spank him and a very respected Sen quite thoroughly, he took it, fixed it, and has always treated me as a friend and colleague. This was a serious matter and explosive. I know him to be an honorable and responsible person. This is utter nonsense, and no, he was not behaving like a hillbot and he’s way too politically expert to go messianic in his thinking. I have made the point that this messianic thinking is ludicrous in regard to politicians and leads to bad behavior amongst ourselves regardless of the campaigns’ BS

  203. 203
    myiq2xu says:

    You actually HAVE a reason for supporting HBeast?

    Sex. Wild freaky sex.

  204. 204
    ThymeZone says:

    probably 90% of the people here at BJ have an overwhelming and overarching desire to take the rethug dick out of our collective asses

    Ahem, well, that is not exactly the poetic imagery I would have chosen for the thing, but …. it works.

    If I were in a state that was in play, I’d agree to vote for Brunhildary if I had to. I would consider it a vote for Satan, but in this case, the alternative is McPain, who makes Satan look like Ronald McDonald with a wardrobe issue.

  205. 205
    ThymeZone says:

    Sex. Wild freaky sex.

    { thinking }

    Sorry, I have no rebuttal.

  206. 206
    Krista says:

    myiq2xu Says:

    You actually HAVE a reason for supporting HBeast?

    Sex. Wild freaky sex.

    I will say one thing for you, myiq. You have your faults, but lack of a sense of humour is not one of them.

  207. 207
    Asti says:

    { thinking }

    Sorry, I have no rebuttal.

    Maybe not, but you DO have a nice butt. ;)

  208. 208
    myiq2xu says:

    Sorry, I have no rebuttal.

    What is Hillary’s core constituency? Women.

    Older, yet “liberated” women.

    At 47 years old, I am a “boy toy.”

    Since they are post-menopausal, that means they don’t swell, they don’t tell, and they’re grateful as hell.

  209. 209

    Now that I think about it, I think Dan Riehl was on there prior to some WordPress issues that caused John to lose all of his links.

    Not.

  210. 210
    Asti says:

    Since they are post-menopausal, that means they don’t swell, they don’t tell, and they’re grateful as hell.

    Actually a lot of menopausal women are grateful that their husbands don’t expect them to put out much anymore. The poor dears. They get hot flashes which put them in testy moods, and thank God we have now supplemental estrogen in pill form because I’ll be damned if I will become one of them, ever!

  211. 211
    Krista says:

    Since they are post-menopausal, that means they don’t swell, they don’t tell, and they’re grateful as hell.

    Charming. Here’s a little tip: I have yet to know any woman who appreciates it when a man describes a woman’s appeal in bed in terms of how “grateful” she is.

    So you might want to keep that little tidbit to yourself, if you don’t want women to think of you as an egotistical scumbag.

  212. 212

    Maybe not, but you DO have a nice butt.

    Explains a lot thanks.

  213. 213
    Krista says:

    Now that I think about it, I think Dan Riehl was on there prior to some WordPress issues that caused John to lose all of his links.

    Not.

    If you say so. You seem to pay much closer attention to these things than I do.

  214. 214
    cbear says:

    Ahem, well, that is not exactly the poetic imagery I would have chosen for the thing,

    I first thought to express my feelings in sonnet form, but couldn’t quite figure out how to make “rethug dick” work within the ryhme scheme. I’ll try to do better next time.

  215. 215
    Ted says:

    Since they are post-menopausal, that means they don’t swell, they don’t tell, and they’re grateful as hell.

    Now that was funny.

    Ergo, when you enter a forum where reasonably intelligent, reasonably objective people discuss politics and try to convince them not to believe their own eyes

    This is what I don’t get. In 2004, I voted for Edwards, but threw money and support to Kerry when he got it. Then along with everyone else I could admit he was running a shitty campaign well before I knew what the outcome would be. Some people here seem incapable of admitting just how bad a job Hillary’s campaign has been thus far. They thought they would have had this wrapped up on Super Tuesday. And this is just a preview of the general if she wins this. It’ll be the Kerry ’04 swing-state-only campaign all over again.

  216. 216
    ThymeZone says:

    Maybe not, but you DO have a nice butt.

    { thinking }

    Again, I have no rebuttal …

  217. 217
    John Cole says:

    Dan Riehl is not going in the blogs to be mocked because I don’t want to read him every god damned day. Not to mention, I say “fuck” too much on the front page as it is.

  218. 218
    myiq2xu says:

    So you might want to keep that little tidbit to yourself, if you don’t want women to think of you as an egotistical scumbag.

    Go to a rally where you are one of the few guys (and the only single guy under 50) and there are about 100 unattached women. Okay, lots of them are widows, but it’s still good for a person’s self-esteem.

    Honestly, I’ve never had women fight over me before.

  219. 219
    ThymeZone says:

    So, are we all agreed, then, that there really is no intellectual rationale for the “35 years of experience” and “CIC threshold” claims by Clinton?

    It’s just nonsense? I mean, 35 years? So basically everything she has done since law school has been CIC preparation?

    She didn’t mention that when she ran for the senate seat in New York. I guess she forgot.

  220. 220
    myiq2xu says:

    So, are we all agreed, then, that there really is no intellectual rationale for the “35 years of experience” and “CIC threshold” claims by Clinton?

    Remember when “experienced woman” was an insult?

  221. 221
    The Other Steve says:

    This is clearly bad for Democrats.

    If you can’t win the Confederate Yankee’s vote, you can’t win America.

  222. 222

    Dan Riehl is not going in the blogs to be mocked because I don’t want to read him every god damned day. Not to mention, I say “fuck” too much on the front page as it is.

    wimp

  223. 223
    ThymeZone says:

    Remember when “experienced woman” was an insult?

    Funny, but, all you have is the jokey one liners?

    No actual basis for supporting Clinton?

  224. 224
    Asti says:

    Remember when “experienced woman” was an insult?

    Was it? I thought it was Jimi Hendrick’s goal to find an experienced woman ;)

  225. 225
    Krista says:

    Go to a rally where you are one of the few guys (and the only single guy under 50) and there are about 100 unattached women. Okay, lots of them are widows, but it’s still good for a person’s self-esteem.

    Honestly, I’ve never had women fight over me before.

    Not my point. If you do wind up wooing one of these women, you might not want to mention to her that one of her great attributes is her “gratitude” (i.e. desperation.)

  226. 226
    Ted says:

    wimp

    I agree. ;)

    I mean, Sadly,No! has never shied away from reading and mocking Riehl.

  227. 227
    Martin says:

    Is there any relationship between Rev. Wright’s church and these guys?

    They’re wingnuts. If you compare messages, they blame the liberals. Wright blames everyone – including blacks.

    We still burning churches tonight?

  228. 228
    Asti says:

    Hendrix (God, I’m glad I’m the one who caught that goof, that could have been embarrassing). ;)

  229. 229
    Ted says:

    No actual basis for supporting Clinton?

    He gave it. Sex with post-menopausals.

  230. 230
    cbear says:

    poetic imagery

    How’s this:

    Somewhere, a little girl cries
    a baby dolphin dies
    oh, cruel season of inequity
    this death of hope
    a single, solitary tear falls from myiq’s eye

  231. 231

    Rockets win the 21st. Is it all football, or is the crazy wild Rockests’ 21st not a big deal.

    In all seriousness, thanks to all of you for changing that one little poll. Sorry if I have offended Kristen or Jen.

    Fighting on the front lines makes you sharp. There must be some among you who remember that, no?

    I have stayed within my range, I think. Jen may disagree.

  232. 232
    Asti says:

    He gave it. Sex with post-menopausals.

    So, if Clinton wins post-menopausal women will want to have more sex? Ummm, is there some study that backs this up? I’m not seeing it, I think they might just decide to be more bossy than usual!

  233. 233
    ThymeZone says:

    So, unless I am missing something, in the complete absence of any rational basis for the “experience” claims of HRC with respect to the job she is running for …. her campaign has basically enjoyed two stages so far:

    Stage One was Entitlement, when she thought (and a lot of us thought) that she wasn’t going to be seriously challenged, and would just cruise to easy nomination, mainly because she could get up and make decent wonky policy speeches and stuff. And raise a lot of money.

    Stage Two, the state we are in now, is Desperation, when she realized that she was not going to cruise to easy nomination, and lacking any particular fact-based rationale for her claims, she turned to negative politics, and basically created what amounts to a pissing contest between herself and her opposition.

    Am I missing anything? For example, using her recent NPR interview and its discussion of the Michigan vote, is there any other way to paraphrase her argument than to say “I want this nomination and nobody is going to fucking take it away from me?”

    That’s it, right? Hillary fans, anything? Do you have anything at all?

  234. 234
    ThymeZone says:

    Somewhere, a little girl cries
    a baby dolphin dies
    oh, cruel season of inequity
    this death of hope
    a single, solitary tear falls from myiq’s eye

    My dog, that is beautiful. Really.

  235. 235
    myiq2xu says:

    No actual basis for supporting Clinton?

    You want me to share my personal beliefs so that the mob here can mock them?

    No matter what I say, you and the others will disagree. No one here is seeking an honest dialog, they want a pie fight.

    I tried honest and thoughtful discourse. For my troubles I was called a troll and accused of “unhinged diatribes.”

    This place is the blogospheric equivilent of a mosh pit.

    I’m not going to expose myself for the amusement of shit-flinging trolls.

  236. 236
    empty says:

    TZ stop trolling.

  237. 237

    Hendrix (God, I’m glad I’m the one who caught that goof, that could have been embarrassing).

    yeah you are embarrassing.

  238. 238
    Krista says:

    incontrolados Says:

    Rockets win the 21st. Is it all football, or is the crazy wild Rockests’ 21st not a big deal.

    In all seriousness, thanks to all of you for changing that one little poll. Sorry if I have offended Kristen or Jen.

    Fighting on the front lines makes you sharp. There must be some among you who remember that, no?

    I have stayed within my range, I think. Jen may disagree.

    Um….are you feeling okay, dude?

  239. 239
    cbear says:

    My dog, that is beautiful. Really

    Thanks. I call it “Darkness at Noon(ers)” in honor of Peggy Noonan—Our Lady of Dolphins.

  240. 240
    ThymeZone says:

    You want me to share my personal beliefs so that the mob here can mock them?

    You have no answer? No explanation? No argument?

    No matter what I say, you and the others will disagree. No one here is seeking an honest dialog, they want a pie fight.

    Your position is such a delicate flower that the zephyrs of our opposition will be enough to blow away its petals?

    In other words, you don’t have an answer?

    I tried honest and thoughtful discourse. For my troubles I was called a troll and accused of “unhinged diatribes.”

    So, you have made an appeal to reason, based on fact, that explains why you support this candidate, why she is uniquely qualified for the job? Can you point me to the post or the materials that that’s based on? Then I will drop the question.

    This place is the blogospheric equivilent of a mosh pit.

    Uh huh. No answer, then?

    I’m not going to expose myself for the amusement of shit-flinging trolls.

    In summation, then, you have asbolutely nothing but jokes, wisecracks, and deflections.

    I’ll bookmark this exchange, we might want to refer to it later.

  241. 241
    Laertes says:

    Yeah, myiq, I didn’t think you had anything.

  242. 242
    cbear says:

    C’mon myiq, I was just kidding with the poem, and you never answered my earlier question:

    Would you vote for MUP in the GE???

  243. 243
    Asti says:

    yeah you are embarrassing.

    Oh, that’s enlightening. Like I care about what you think.

  244. 244
    ThymeZone says:

    Um….are you feeling okay, dude?

    I think IC is a lady. Seriously.

  245. 245
    myiq2xu says:

    Somewhere, a little girl cries
    a baby dolphin dies
    oh, cruel season of inequity
    this death of hope
    a single, solitary tear falls from myiq’s eye

    Awww, now I feel bad about all the stuff I said about ya.

    I mean, thanks, in a purely platonic, heterosexual way.

    Maybe

  246. 246

    myiq2xu, I see your point, but I will not let the childish element to influence me.

    You support Clinton. So does my political mentor. News flash = I am a nobody. But my political mentor supports Clinton. I supported Edwards. He’s the raadical candidate that the media is not ready for.

  247. 247
    Asti says:

    Your position is such a delicate flower that the zephyrs of our opposition will be enough to blow away its petals?

    In other words, you don’t have an answer?

    It’s always been that way, hasn’t it?

  248. 248
    ThymeZone says:

    Okay, so the question becomes, absent any particular argument in favor of the H in the H vs B contest ….

    Is it possible that your position here is based more on a dislike for Obama supporters than it is based on favoring the candidacy of his opponent?

    That the whole idea of “Audacity of Hope” is just too foo-foo and ethereal for you to stand it?

    That you are not so much FOR H as you are AGAINST B?

    Just asking.

  249. 249
    myiq2xu says:

    In summation, then, you have asbolutely nothing but jokes, wisecracks, and deflections.

    Sarcasm is only one of the services I offer.

    Yeah, myiq, I didn’t think you had anything.

    Neither did I, until the lab test came back. But it’s treatable.

    Would you vote for MUP in the GE???

    As I have said many times before -yes.

    I think IC is a lady. Seriously.

    Yes she is.

  250. 250
    Asti says:

    I supported Edwards. He’s the raadical candidate that the media is not ready for.

    I like Edwards, but, somehow when I consider him, the word radical doesn’t come to mind. I like his “for the working people” philosophy. What is it about Edwards that you find so radical? I’d be interested to know. He’s too soft spoken, and doesn’t get very close to the fray.

  251. 251
    ThymeZone says:

    Neither did I, until the lab test came back. But it’s treatable.

    I have to admit, your material is funny.

    I am stealing all your jokes.

  252. 252
    John S. says:

    I’m not going to expose myself for the amusement of shit-flinging trolls.

    I believe this is called the p.lukasiak defense.

  253. 253
    myiq2xu says:

    You support Clinton. So does my political mentor. News flash = I am a nobody. But my political mentor supports Clinton. I supported Edwards. He’s the raadical candidate that the media is not ready for.

    Edwards was my second choice, but Gore didn’t run. HRC was my fifth choice.

    Is it possible that your position here is based more on a dislike for Obama supporters than it is based on favoring the candidacy of his opponent?

    Possibly, and I’ve never denied it. I started defending Hillary from unfair attacks while I was still supporting Edwards.

    I’ve said repeatedly that I think there are numerous fair criticisms of Hillary, and good reasons to support Obama.

    I’ve also said my biggest problem with Obama is his supporters.

  254. 254
    cbear says:

    Awww, now I feel bad about all the stuff I said about ya.

    WHAT? You didn’t tell anybody about me, Aunt Bea, and the handjob, did you?
    BASTARD. You know that was confidential boy-talk between you, me, and Dennis last night.

    Ok, how many people did you tell?

  255. 255

    Oh, that’s enlightening. Like I care about what you think.

    right back at ya there asti.

  256. 256
    ThymeZone says:

    I’ve also said my biggest problem with Obama is his supporters.

    Fair enough. What is the part you don’t like about .. us.

  257. 257
    Asti says:

    right back at ya there asti.

    IC if you have a problem with me, why don’t you spell it out instead of playing little gotcha games. You aren’t offereing any reasons. If you feel so strongly, why don’t you offer up your reasoning? I can take it.

  258. 258
    myiq2xu says:

    What is the part you don’t like about .. us.

    Halitosis and excessive body hair.

  259. 259
    cbear says:

    I started defending Hillary from unfair attacks while I was still supporting Edwards.

    my sweet, beautiful, broken flower
    cleave unto me
    rest your weary head upon my breast
    pass the night sweetly
    tomorrow we once more seek the light

  260. 260

    I like Edwards, but, somehow when I consider him, the word radical doesn’t come to mind. I like his “for the working people” philosophy. What is it about Edwards that you find so radical? I’d be interested to know. He’s too soft spoken, and doesn’t get very close to the fray.

    shit some of you are like my dogs. I’ve got to watch the recycles because they want to gnaw on them.

    Edwards was the radical turn everything over candidate. Asti have you never read Greenwald?

    Answer: nope.

    Thank you Asti. and Jen for that matter.

  261. 261
    Martin says:

    Defeated by moving to a greasemonkey deficient computer, but I have an objection:

    No matter what I say, you and the others will disagree. No one here is seeking an honest dialog, they want a pie fight.

    I tried honest and thoughtful discourse. For my troubles I was called a troll and accused of “unhinged diatribes.”

    I called you a troll when you claimed that Hillary’s comment that the Michigan election would not count didn’t mean that the delegates wouldn’t be seated.

    I spent, what, 2 days not pie fighting and trying to have a discourse and I got patently dishonest statements in reply. That’s been the problem I’ve had everywhere with Hillary supporters. When I get ones willing to have a debate, and I back them into a corner, they are simply unable to concede the point. Don’t act like nobody tried.

  262. 262
    ThymeZone says:

    Halitosis and excessive body hair.

    Ah. Well, there you are then. Makes perfect sense.

    So if we bathe and shave and brush our teeth, you would embrace the MUP?

    Im not saying we would, but if we did.

  263. 263
    Asti says:

    What is the part you don’t like about .. us.

    I have a theory on this TZ, I think HRC’s supporters have been so hoping to have a major war with the VRWC for so long after the last seven years that “Yes, We Can” ruins any chance of that event coming to fruition. They don’t want to hear “Yes We Can”, they want to say “No, you don’t”.

  264. 264
    myiq2xu says:

    my sweet, beautiful, broken flower
    cleave unto me
    rest your weary head upon my breast
    pass the night sweetly
    tomorrow we once more seek the light

    That reminds me of that summer in Cellblock “C”

  265. 265

    my sweet, beautiful, broken flower
    cleave unto me
    rest your weary head upon my breast
    pass the night sweetly
    tomorrow we once more seek the light

    And what? We are still here, dealing with your hillary/obama shit.

    FU

  266. 266
    empty says:

    I’ve also said my biggest problem with Obama is his supporters.

    The MUPpets are only annoying. It is his “liberal interventionist” foreign policy advisors that scare me.

  267. 267
    ThymeZone says:

    I think HRC’s supporters have been so hoping to have a major war with the VRWC for so long after the last seven years that “Yes, We Can” ruins any chance of that event coming to fruition. They don’t want to hear “Yes We Can”, they want to say “No, you don’t”.

    Yes, and I wonder, and I am talking about true HRC believers here, if they are so invested in having the last laugh on VRWC that they can’t STAND the idea that a Democrat might actually take that away from them?

    But I don’t think this applies to MikeU. I don’t think he is wrapped around that kind of bullshit. I think he just doesn’t like the MUP effect and the way it manifests itself. I find this … rational, believe it or not.

  268. 268
    Asti says:

    Yes, I have read Greenwald, but, that still doesn’t tell me why Edwards is a radical. Just because you like Greenwald (and I haven’t found him to be someone I feel the need to return to again and again)doesn’t tell me anything about why YOU feel Edwards is a radical. Do you speak for yourself or do you always let others do it for you? How the hell was I supposed to know that when I ask IC a question, Greenwald is supposed to be the one to answer. Are you a puppet? Do you speak?

  269. 269
    myiq2xu says:

    So if we bathe and shave and brush our teeth, you would embrace the MUP?

    Im not saying we would, but if we did.

    Let me think about it. I’ll let you know in August.

    BTW – Don’t you mean “brush our tooth?”

  270. 270

    Asti says: ZZZZZZZZ

  271. 271
    cbear says:

    That reminds me of that summer in Cellblock “C”

    Yeah me too. I’m sorry if I hurt you, my manly needs overcame my compassion for your innocence. Please forgive me.

  272. 272
    ThymeZone says:

    That reminds me of that summer in Cellblock “C”

    You’re killin us here.

    But look, let’s separate the MUP from the candidate himself. Let’s say that all of us supporters are just deranged and obsessed.

    What about the pure contest of candidate v. candidate? How does that meat stack up on your club sandwich?

    Heh, disarm him with food metaphors. Profit!

  273. 273
    Asti says:

    TZ, NoIQ has been here all along flinging mud just because it is fun. It has always been thus. He doesn’t believe IN anything, just has a lot he CAN’T believe in. He is, apparently, hopeless.

  274. 274
    ThymeZone says:

    Don’t you mean “brush our tooth?”

    Yes.

  275. 275

    Just because you like Greenwald

    I stopped reading him when he went a little too much on the race thing. But don’t let that stop you from putting me in my place.

  276. 276
    Asti says:

    Asti says: ZZZZZZZZ

    I ask you questions and you consider that boring? You apparently are boring then. Fine, I have no need to know any more. Actually IC, YOU’RE the one who isn’t saying much. Go ahead, start a food fight, I’m done playing with you.

  277. 277
    ThymeZone says:

    Go ahead, start a food fight, I’m done playing with you.

    Uh, are you going to eat that chicken leg?

    Excuse my reach ……

  278. 278
    Asti says:

    IC, I’m not putting you in your place, I don’t know your place is, I’m asking you honest questions, and all you’re doing is attacking me and not asnwering questions. Carry on with you game, I’m not playing it anymore.

  279. 279
    Asti says:

    TZ, I really gotta get used to this new keyboard, it’s skewing my language terribly. ;)

  280. 280
    cbear says:

    And what? We are still here, dealing with your hillary/obama shit.

    FU

    Is this any way to treat a gentle poetic soul? Oh, the humanity.

  281. 281
    ThymeZone says:

    The thread is going to food now.

    This is just …. wonderful. Food can never be wrong.

  282. 282
    Gus says:

    Didn’t John once say that most of his erstwhile colleagues on the Republican side were actually pretty good people except for Dan Riehl, who he called and unmitigated asshole?

  283. 283
    myiq2xu says:

    Yes, and I wonder, and I am talking about true HRC believers here, if they are so invested in having the last laugh on VRWC that they can’t STAND the idea that a Democrat might actually take that away from them?

    There is some truth here. I would like a rematch.

    We’re talking grudge fight.

    One of the best things the last couple of years has been the Big Dog fighting back, like he did with Chris Wallace.

    For years they had to “grin and bear it” when they were slimed up one side and down the other.

    I’d be lying if I said I didn’t want to see the Clintons stick it in and break it off.

    Or as Robby Benson said “All the in with a red-hot poker.”

  284. 284

    Always the victim, right Asti?

  285. 285
    Martin says:

    Yes, and I wonder, and I am talking about true HRC believers here, if they are so invested in having the last laugh on VRWC that they can’t STAND the idea that a Democrat might actually take that away from them?

    I agree with this. Probably true of many Obama supporters as well. One of my favorite West Wing lines:

    Josh: Which is one of the reasons that I work full-time for his opponent. I don’t know what gave you the impression that I had to be convinced, but I want to win. You want to beat him, and that’s a problem for me, because I want to win.

    A lot of people want to beat the GOP. They don’t want to win, they want to beat them. It’s like half the liberal bloggers have battered wife syndrome and are looking for penises to cut off but Obama (or Clinton) is getting in the way.

  286. 286
    Asti says:

    Always the victim, right Asti?

    Victim? Victim of what? I am not a victim, I am someone who takes responsibility for my screw ups and apologizes, and gives people teh benefit of the doubt when I don’t understand. I don’t understand this attack you’re making on me, I asked you to state your case, all I see is you calling me names and being unwilling to explain your reasons for saying the things you are saying. Are you drinking? You certainly appear to be off balance tonight.

  287. 287
    ThymeZone says:

    Okay, so you (MikeU) are making basically an emotional choice here. Can’t argue with that, I am doing the same thing to some degree, although it goes a little deeper.

    I don’t like the weaseling on the AUMF vote. I don’t like the weaseling on the Kyl-Lieberman vote. I don’t like the claim that she owns the healthcare issue when her record is one of collossal failure. I don’t the style of presentation on the healthcare issue, which sounds to me exactly like “My way or highway.” I have had seven years of MWOH and I am pretty sick of it.

    I don’t the power grab on the Michigan vote thing. I don’t like the “I’m honored to be here with Barack Obama” trailed 36 hours later with “Shame on you, Barack Obama.”

    I just.Dont.Like.Her.

    I have no rational reason to like her. I can find no intellectual appeal that makes me overcome not liking her.

    Not trying to convince anybody of anything, just explaining my position.

  288. 288

    Is this any way to treat a gentle poetic soul? Oh, the humanity

    Please call me crazy while you’re at it.

  289. 289
    cbear says:

    I really gotta get used to this new keyboard, it’s skewing my language terribly

    I have much the same problem after I type the word “Lieberman” on my keyboard. It gets some nasty, sticky shit all up in the keys and I have to type really slowly after that. I think they call that foul goo “Joementum”.

  290. 290
    cbear says:

    One of the best things the last couple of years has been the Big Dog fighting back, like he did with Chris Wallace.

    Yep. That was one of the best public dick-whippings in recent memory.

  291. 291
    myiq2xu says:

    I have much the same problem after I type the word “Lieberman” on my keyboard. It gets some nasty, sticky shit all up in the keys and I have to type really slowly after that. I think they call that foul goo “Joementum”.

    Somebody’s been playing with his “joystick” again!

  292. 292
    Asti says:

    I have much the same problem after I type the word “Lieberman” on my keyboard. It gets some nasty, sticky shit all up in the keys and I have to type really slowly after that. I think they call that foul goo “Joementum”.

    I haven’t tried typing that name on this new computer. I’m just dealing with a brand new computer system and the keys need to be broken in a bit. They’re still a bit stiff.

  293. 293
    ThymeZone says:

    One of the best things the last couple of years has been the Big Dog fighting back

    See, I have kinda a problem with this. Big Dog is through. He had his two terms, and I think he does fine as an ex-president. But I don’t want him back in the White House, and I don’t want them back in the White House.

    It’s not a castle, we don’t do kings and queens here. This is America, we made George Washington freeze his ass off in Pennsyvania to beat the king and set us free, and all, and I want a new name on the WH stationery. Like, Nobnosky. Or Obama. Three hundred million GODDAM PEOPLE and we can’t get a new name on the STATIONERY?

    Somebody, shoot me!

  294. 294
    Asti says:

    I don’t like the weaseling on the AUMF vote. I don’t like the weaseling on the Kyl-Lieberman vote. I don’t like the claim that she owns the healthcare issue when her record is one of collossal failure. I don’t the style of presentation on the healthcare issue, which sounds to me exactly like “My way or highway.” I have had seven years of MWOH and I am pretty sick of it.

    I don’t the power grab on the Michigan vote thing. I don’t like the “I’m honored to be here with Barack Obama” trailed 36 hours later with “Shame on you, Barack Obama.”

    See, TZ, that’ the difference between Obama supporters and Hillary supporters, we keep saying these things, and they throw pie, but there’s no filling. Empty shell, that’s all.

  295. 295
    ThymeZone says:

    Pie? I love pie! Pie is so tasty! Pie makes my tummy feel full of good pie!

  296. 296
    Asti says:

    It’s not a castle, we don’t do kings and queens here. This is America, we made George Washington freeze his ass off in Pennsyvania to beat the king and set us free, and all, and I want a new name on the WH stationery. Like, Nobnosky. Or Obama. Three hundred million GODDAM PEOPLE and we can’t get a new name on the STATIONERY?

    Unfortunately, the perks of the job these days are more kingly than presidential. I remember when I was in FL that they completely shut down the city I lived in so Bush could visit for a few hours. They roped off all the major throughways and nobody could go anywhere. They had security keeping people three blocks back so they couldn’t even watch him drive by. When his father came to that city as a VP about twenty years earlier, they didn’t do any of that.

  297. 297
    myiq2xu says:

    I haven’t tried typing that name on this new computer. I’m just dealing with a brand new computer system and the keys need to be broken in a bit. They’re still a bit stiff.

    I little K-Y warming lotion and a couple firm slaps should loosen it up.

    “Spank that keyboard! Spank it!

  298. 298
    cbear says:

    Please call me crazy while you’re at it.

    WTF are you talking about???

    Who are you???

    Here I am just merrily trading friendly insults w/ all my buds at late-nite BJ and this big rat crawls up out of his/her shit-pipe and scares the living crap outta me.

    There outta be a law.

  299. 299
    Asti says:

    Pie? I love pie! Pie is so tasty! Pie makes my tummy feel full of good pie!

    How do you feel about pie without filling?

  300. 300

    I haven’t tried typing that name on this new computer. I’m just dealing with a brand new computer system and the keys need to be broken in a bit. They’re still a bit stiff

    Sounds a bit Jennish. but you are ho you are, Asti.

  301. 301
    Asti says:

    Sounds a bit Jennish. but you are ho you are, Asti.

    Well, I can assure you I’m not Jen, and TZ knows this for a fact. I’ll ignore the “ho” remark, unfair to take up argument against someone who isn’t dealing with all their faculties.

  302. 302

    crap I said ho. Sorry, I meant who.

  303. 303
    Asti says:

    Here I am just merrily trading friendly insults w/ all my buds at late-nite BJ and this big rat crawls up out of his/her shit-pipe and scares the living crap outta me.

    cbear, scared? Isn’t that being a bit overdramatic?

  304. 304
    myiq2xu says:

    How do you feel about pie without filling?

    I think “third-base” feels just like warm apple pie.

  305. 305
    Asti says:

    crap I said ho. Sorry, I meant who.

    apology accepted.

  306. 306
    cbear says:

    Sounds a bit Jennish. but you are ho you are, Asti.

    FOR GOD’S SAKE doesn’t anybody here have a net? I think we better cage this pyscho until the drugs wear off.

    Didn’t you hear the warning about the brown acid, you nimrod.

  307. 307
    myiq2xu says:

    cbear, scared? Isn’t that being a bit overdramatic?

    After all those years inside, cbear is intimidated real women.

  308. 308
    myiq2xu says:

    Oops. “By real women.”

    But maybe there are some kindly ladies who will help reintegrate someone who has paid his multiple debts to society into the “real” world?

  309. 309
    Asti says:

    FOR GOD’S SAKE doesn’t anybody here have a net? I think we better cage this pyscho until the drugs wear off.

    Didn’t you hear the warning about the brown acid, you nimrod.

    cbear, really, it’s okay, I can handle this. You don’t have to defend me, really, but, thank you.

    IC is always a bit aggressive, IC usually has something enlightening to say though, and I’m just not seeing that side tonight. Apparently there is some sort of inebriation involved. Let’s just chill and let her enjoy her high.

  310. 310

    Asti, I got a positive that you can replicate.

    With one comment, posted by ‘milo’ earlier today, we changed/freeped a poll on a website.

    It went from 20% against to 60+ for.

    You and jen are small potatoes ;)

  311. 311
    ThymeZone says:

    “Spank that keyboard! Spank it!

    Okay, this seems to be where the political theme has gone completely off the rail …..

    Oh dear.

  312. 312
    cbear says:

    After all those years inside, cbear is intimidated real women.

    That’s MISTER CBEAR to you myiqqqq….just like when we were on the inside. You don’t want me telling all the nice people here what you had to do to survive on the tier, do you?

  313. 313
    Asti says:

    But maybe there are some kindly ladies who will help reintegrate someone who has paid his multiple debts to society into the “real” world?

    Are you saying what I think you’re saying? YOu’ve been such a good boy that you deserve to get laid?

    I remember in my childhood that “every good boy deserves FUDGE.” ;)

  314. 314
    Asti says:

    With one comment, posted by ‘milo’ earlier today, we changed/freeped a poll on a website.

    It went from 20% against to 60+ for.

    Is this supposed to be meaningful? What poll, what was the question? What were 20% against before 60% for for it? Do you realize how cryptic you’re being tonight?

    Ummm, Jen and I are not BFF, nor sisters, in fact Jen and I don’t really have much in common at all.

  315. 315

    ASTI = made up out rage

    There’s enoungh sincere outrage without your drama.

  316. 316
    TenguPhule says:

    Three hundred million GODDAM PEOPLE and we can’t get a new name on the STATIONERY?

    Welcome to the Land of Idiocracy, moving in or just visiting?

  317. 317
    myiq2xu says:

    Are you saying what I think you’re saying?

    I was trying to help you get a “coming out” present.

    No STFU before you mess things up. I think the redhead puts out.

  318. 318
    TenguPhule says:

    Since they are post-menopausal, that means they don’t swell, they don’t tell, and they’re grateful as hell.

    I would say something in reponse, but it would probably be considered sexist. Just because.

  319. 319
    Asti says:

    Okay, this seems to be where the political theme has gone completely off the rail …..

    Oh dear.

    Yes, I see that, apparently the subject is turning to sexual frustrations. I guess I’m the only one who has Roger to keep me company ;)

  320. 320
    myiq2xu says:

    Welcome to the Land of Idiocracy, moving in or just visiting?

    TZ is a slumlord here

  321. 321
    cbear says:

    “every good boy deserves FUDGE.”

    Funny, that’s just what we used to say in the men’s prison.

    What did it mean on the women’s side?

  322. 322
    Asti says:

    I was trying to help you get a “coming out” present.

    Coming out of what?

    No STFU before you mess things up. I think the redhead puts out.

    I can assure you NoIQ, nobody puts out the way I do. ;)

  323. 323
    Asti says:

    What did it mean on the women’s side?

    Lots and lots of keyboard lessons.

  324. 324
    myiq2xu says:

    I was trying to help you get a “coming out” present.

    Too much pruno. I thought that was puddin buns cbear.

  325. 325

    Asti, it’s a done deal. Sorry you missed out on it. we did it. Without you.

    I am also milo.

    Thank you all for making the poll accurate.

    Sorry you missed out on it Asti.

    Would you like for me to notify you in advance when you can prove your non-racist credentials?

    I’m more than happy to accommodate.

  326. 326
    myiq2xu says:

    Lots and lots of keyboard lessons.

    Ever had someone double-click your mouse?

  327. 327
    Asti says:

    TZ is a slumlord here

    Define “here” and cite a reason for such an accusation.

    Is this supposed to be funny NoIQ?

    TZ, I think you and I are among the few who aren’t posting drunk tonight.

  328. 328
    myiq2xu says:

    Define “here” and cite a reason for such an accusation.

    Here is “here” and I’m getting overcharged for s sleazy, roach-infested flat.

    Okay, the roaches are the good kind, but still . . .

  329. 329
    ThymeZone says:

    TZ is a slumlord here

    That reminds me, your rent is due ….

  330. 330
    Asti says:

    Asti, it’s a done deal. Sorry you missed out on it. we did it. Without you.

    I am also milo.

    Thank you all for making the poll accurate.

    Sorry you missed out on it Asti.

    Would you like for me to notify you in advance when you can prove your non-racist credentials?

    I’m more than happy to accommodate.

    WTF are you talking about? I don’t have to prove my non-racist credentials to you, fuck off. I was born into a family of racists and challenged them on it at every turn. You think you’re just being funny? You look like an idiot with that crap remark. A word of advice IC, you have NO idea who you are talking to on the internet, you have no idea what the background of those people are. You have no idea what those people have been willing to challenge. I don’t need to show you shit.

  331. 331
    cbear says:

    Ever had someone double-click your mouse?

    Don’t listen to him. I can double-click your mouse FROM inside your wireless card slot.

  332. 332
    myiq2xu says:

    I vehemently disagree and strongly condemn the statements that have been the subject of this controversy. I categorically denounce any statement that disparages our great country or serves to divide us from our allies. I also believe that words that degrade individuals have no place in our public dialogue, whether it’s on the campaign stump or in the pulpit. In sum, I reject outright the statements by Rev. Wright that are at issue.

    I HAZ PONY 4U

  333. 333
    myiq2xu says:

    Don’t listen to him. I can double-click your mouse FROM inside your wireless card slot.

    STFU! I’m working on a double-header.

  334. 334
    Asti says:

    when you can prove your non-racist credentials?

    You’ve been away for a while haven’t you? I’m a white woman who is supporting a black man’s campaign, where do you get off suggestiong I’m a racist?

  335. 335
    cbear says:

    A word of advice IC, you have NO idea who you are talking to on the internet, you have no idea what the background of those people are.

    Goddamn right.

    I shot a gooper in Reno just to watch him die.

  336. 336
    ThymeZone says:

    TZ, I think you and I are among the few who aren’t posting drunk tonight.

    I { burp } know!

  337. 337
    Asti says:

    STFU! I’m working on a double-header.

    well before I got involved in an idiotic exchance with IC, I was going to tell you NoIQ that “keyboard” lessons didn’t have anything to do with typing. I took organ lessons for almost twenty years. (now what the sexually depraved NoIQ childlishly go off on a tangent about “organs”.

  338. 338
    ThymeZone says:

    the roaches are the good kind

    Roaches? In that case you owe me a pet deposit ….

  339. 339
    myiq2xu says:

    I shot a gooper in Reno just to watch him die.

    If you would shut your drunk ass up we might be able to network this mainframe.

  340. 340
    Asti says:

    Roaches? In that case you owe me a pet deposit ….

    LMAO! That was perfect!

  341. 341
    Jim says:

    PS. Fairly obviously, Jeremiah Wright and John Hagee are both secret Muslims. It is hardly unlikely that Pope Benedict is as well.

    By some accounts Benny is also Nazi. A secret muslim Nazi who is against the death penalty and loves the environment. Better get Jonah onto this one.

  342. 342
    cbear says:

    STFU! I’m working on a double-header.

    Ok, but don’t try sneaking up behind me when its my turn.

  343. 343
    myiq2xu says:

    I took organ lessons for almost twenty years. (now what the sexually depraved NoIQ childlishly go off on a tangent about “organs”.

    Q: What’s better than Four Roses on a piano?

    A: Tulips on an organ!

    Did I fulfill your expectations?

  344. 344
    Martin says:

    It is his “liberal interventionist” foreign policy advisors that scare me.

    Obama hired the neocons? Wow, that’s new.

  345. 345
    Asti says:

    TZ I have to go find a relevant thread, this one has reached oblivion.

  346. 346
    myiq2xu says:

    Ok, but don’t try sneaking up behind me when its my turn.

    You’ll hear me coming

  347. 347
    ThymeZone says:

    In that case you owe me a pet deposit ….

    Okay, so that’s 734 pets at $150 each ….

    I’m going to need a cashier’s check ….

  348. 348
    Asti says:

    Q: What’s better than Four Roses on a piano?

    A: Tulips on an organ!

    Did I fulfill your expectations?

    It was childish, yes… it was not up to par though, sorry. I expected more from you, really. You can be fucking hilarious at times, where is that talent tonight?

  349. 349

    WTF are you talking about?

    You’ve been away for a while haven’t you? I’m a white woman who is supporting a black man’s campaign, where do you get off suggestiong I’m a racist?

    As a person involved in this race you are spouting about — who CARES IF YOU ARE A FEMALE OR WHITE OR WHATEVER.

    I’m done shouting at the Asti bitch.

  350. 350
    myiq2xu says:

    You can be fucking hilarious at times, where is that talent tonight?

    Passed out drunk back at the motel.

  351. 351
    Asti says:

    Okay, so that’s 734 pets at $150 each ….

    I’m going to need a cashier’s check ….

    TZ, it’s almost the middle of the month, I think you have to prorate this month and expect full pet rent next month. ;)

  352. 352
    cbear says:

    If you would shut your drunk ass up we might be able to network this mainframe.

    Fer chissakes, what’s taking you so long? Just hit her over the head with your hard-drive like we did the last time. She’ll just think it was a some particularly nasty spyware in the morning.

    Ssssh, I think I hear somebody. HURRY UP.

  353. 353

    That turned out the opposite of my preview.

  354. 354
    Asti says:

    As a person involved in this race you are spouting about—who CARES IF YOU ARE A FEMALE OR WHITE OR WHATEVER.

    I’m done shouting at the Asti bitch.

    IC, I think it’s time for your meds.

  355. 355
    myiq2xu says:

    I’m done shouting

    Come on Michelle, can’t we all just get along?

    Don’t get mad and leave, I like it when you’re here.

  356. 356
    Bruce Moomaw says:

    It’s rather disconcerting that a lot of the commentary on this business involves excusing McCain on the grounds that he’s obviously just whoring for votes from the extreme Right, whereas Obama — having been associated with this church for 20 years — might (shudder) sincerely BELIEVE what Wright is spouting. For the moment, I’m in a holding pattern on this whole business myself; but if Obama doesn’t think he has some ‘splaining to do (and much more than McCain politically has to, alas), he’s living in a dream world. This could easily wreck him.

  357. 357
    myiq2xu says:

    Ssssh, I think I hear somebody. HURRY UP.

    Okay, go to SAFE MODE and defrag her

  358. 358
    ThymeZone says:

    TZ, it’s almost the middle of the month, I think you have to prorate this month and expect full pet rent next month.

    No more mister nice guy, MikeU has to pay up.

    Well, unless he starts to love MUP a little.

  359. 359
    Asti says:

    This could easily wreck him.

    Bruce is hoping to toss out a balloon and hope it floats. Bruce is counting on a black minister ruining Obama’s campaign. Bruce overlooks all the nastiness coming out of the Clinton camp apparently.

  360. 360
    Billy K says:

    myiq and TZ, do you two have jobs? lives? families? hobbies?

    It seems there is no time to avoid you two here.

  361. 361
    ThymeZone says:

    So ….. how about that crazy George Bush?

    Heh.

  362. 362
    myiq2xu says:

    No more mister nice guy, MikeU has to pay up.

    Damn, and my jaw is already sore.

    Do you want to defrag her too?

  363. 363
    myiq2xu says:

    Bruce is hoping to toss out a balloon and hope it floats. Bruce is counting on a black minister ruining Obama’s campaign. Bruce overlooks all the nastiness coming out of the Clinton camp apparently.

    This train ain’t getting back on track. Sorry.

  364. 364
    cbear says:

    Okay, go to SAFE MODE and defrag her

    Safe Mode?

    Fuck that, I’m going straight to Hibernate.
    I ain’t going down for this shit again, myiq. I’m too old to do the time.

  365. 365

    cbear, you make very good suggestions. god cbear.

    and you did what for obama today?

    nothing.

    that’s what I thought.

  366. 366
    myiq2xu says:

    myiq and TZ, do you two have jobs? lives? families? hobbies?

    All of the above and you’re looking at it.

  367. 367
    Asti says:

    but if Obama doesn’t think he has some ‘splaining to do (and much more than McCain politically has to, alas

    McCain takes political support from a “godly” man who makes general accusations towards people of the catholic faith; Obama doesn’t accept political support from a man who preaches in a black church and holds some radical views, but knows him… and Bruce thinks Barack is the one who should be held more accoutable.

    Bruce has some “splainin’ to do”.

  368. 368
    myiq2xu says:

    Fuck that, I’m going straight to Hibernate.

    SAFE MODE dude. No glove, no love.

  369. 369
    Asti says:

    This train ain’t getting back on track. Sorry.

    The train never left the track. You are the one off the rails.

  370. 370
    ThymeZone says:

    It seems there is no time to avoid you two here.

    Can’t speak for MikeU, I myself am on call 24 x 365 pretty much, just got done with some work-related chores a few mins ago.

    Not that it is any of your fucking business.

  371. 371
    Asti says:

    cbear, you make very good suggestions. god cbear.

    and you did what for obama today?

    nothing.

    that’s what I thought.

    You know IC, if you’re so concerned about doing for Obama, you got an opportunity right here with Bruce, why don’t you take it?

  372. 372
    myiq2xu says:

    You are the one off the rails.

    That’s “deranged” not “derailed.”

  373. 373

    IC, I think it’s time for your meds.

    I’m crazy, right?

  374. 374
    myiq2xu says:

    Can’t speak for MikeU, I myself am on call 24×365 pretty much, just got done with some work-related chores a few mins ago.

    Home or office, I’m usually blogged in.

  375. 375
    cbear says:

    Bruce is counting on a black minister ruining Obama’s campaign. Bruce overlooks all the nastiness coming out of the Clinton camp apparently.

    Man, she’s really out of it. We might get away with this–Quick, tell her you ACTUALLY hate Clinton…that should distract her long enough for us to put some miles between us and this ginmill.

    I’ll go get the car.

  376. 376
    myiq2xu says:

    I’ll go get the car.

    I told her my name was John Cole.

  377. 377
    libarbarian says:

    I say he burns down the church. Then he will be acceptable to allahpundit. I mean, no one said anything when the roots of the modern GOP were burning churches in the south in the last century.

    True, but the Republicans can always point out that they were called “Democrats” back then too.

    I’ve always admired how the Republicans accepted the racist block of the Dem party into their fold and then turned around and said “The Dems used to be racist”. Actually, its kind of like the Neocons and Communists. A bunch of unrepentant ex-Trotskyites who now make a living calling Democrats “socialists”. Amazing.

  378. 378
    myiq2xu says:

    Incontrolados:

    How many dogs do you have now?

  379. 379
    ThymeZone says:

    Car? That reminds me, Billy K, as long as you are hanging around in the parking lot, would you mind cleaning my windshield?

    Thanks.

  380. 380

    Asti never needs meds, right?

    It doesn’t matter that I was right about anything.

  381. 381
    myiq2xu says:

    A bunch of unrepentant ex-Trotskyites who now make a living calling Democrats “socialists”

    Trotsky was assassinated with an axe in Mexico. Which proves that Lou Dobbs is right about . . . nothing.

  382. 382
    Asti says:

    cbear and NoIQ, are you two having fun? You remind me of the loser geeks in that movie Sixteen Candles.

  383. 383
    myiq2xu says:

    Asti never needs meds, right?

    I give up.

    G’night everyone!

  384. 384
    ThymeZone says:

    I thought they were doing Cheech and Chong.

  385. 385
    myiq2xu says:

    You remind me of the loser geeks in that movie Sixteen Candles.

    Farmer Ted?

  386. 386
    myiq2xu says:

    Cheech and Chong.

    Ralph and Herbie?

    “Smell that?”

    “Mmmmmm. Fifi!”

  387. 387
    ThymeZone says:

    Okay! Billy K will be up next, the All Night Show.

    Tonight, Billy explains why Life Sucks, and Then You Die.

    Stay tuned for his inspirational message.

  388. 388
    cbear says:

    I told her my name was John Cole.

    Jeebus, that was ballsy. What if we don’t get invited back to the party. You always have to push our luck, don’t you?

    I’m bringing Moe or Curly next time.

    OK, let me just eeeeaassseee my power cord from between her memory boards and we’ll be outa here. Keep talking to the crazy one and I’ll cover for you after I unplug.

    AAARghhhhhh, OWWWWWW….she closed the lid on my power cord. I’M BLEEEDING.
    Help MYIQ.

  389. 389
    Asti says:

    Houston we have a problem, Ummm TZ, I didn’t post that, wtf just happened there?

    I was posting to IC that without citing a an argument or an example of such argument she couldn’t be right, where did all THAT come from?

    Is THIS what Vista does?

    Apologies everyone, I had no idea that I posted that. It wasn’t in my window, and I have no idea how it hapepned at all.

  390. 390
    Asti says:

    Oh, and you guys can’t se it because “my comment is awaiting moderation”. Hmmmmmm!

    Good night.

  391. 391
    Bruce Moomaw says:

    It’s rather amusing to see me being accused of hoping for the collapse of Obama’s campaign, given the fact that I’ve been engaged in regular red-faced screaming matches with my mother for the last three months over his superiority to Hillary. (She — despite being somewhat to the left of Kim Jong Il — has been convinced for MONTHS that Obama may be a dangerous black racist on the basis of his long-time association with that church. As such, I’m afraid she’s a political omen of the future.)

    I will repeat what I said before: he needs to make it clear what he saw in the guy DESPITE Wright’s drooling extremism on some subjects. If he doesn’t do that, he could easily be wrecked by this — and that isn’t changed by the fact that it’s ironic that it could happen because a lot of people would be confident that McCain was just prostituting himself for votes, but fear that Obama might be HONESTLY sympathetic with some of Wright’s (frequent) loonier comments.

  392. 392
    myiq2xu says:

    Rodney Carrington Live at the Majestic is on the Comedy Channel.

    “I went home with a fat girl once a bunch of times.”

  393. 393
    Martin says:

    if Obama doesn’t think he has some ‘splaining to do (and much more than McCain politically has to, alas), he’s living in a dream world. This could easily wreck him.

    Could wreck him, but it shouldn’t. Worse things have been said in white churches to white pols. And I trust the black community will step over this mess if it gets any worse. But saying there shouldn’t be double-standard doesn’t mean there isn’t one.

    Y’all realize that Hillary is a member of the Fellowship – the Bible group in DC that Inhofe and Brownback are part of and that Rob Schenck minsters to them at times. He’s the Operation Rescue guy that got arrested for shoving a fetus in Bill’s face at the ’92 DNC convention. I’m sure those sermons are all sweetness and light, but the media isn’t interested in showing that shit on TV. Don’t wanna embarrass whitey. (I’m like super-white, btw)

    I should probably note I’m on my 2nd bottle of wine…

  394. 394
    Bruce Moomaw says:

    “…It’s ironic that it could happen because a lot of people would be confident that McCain was just prostituting himself for votes, but fear that Obama might be HONESTLY sympathetic with some of Wright’s (frequent) loonier comments.”

    That, and the simple fact that lunatic bigoted white pastors are much more widely accepted in the US than lunatic bigoted black pastors, for the simple reason that there are a lot more white people in this country. Again, unfortunate but true.

  395. 395
    cbear says:

    “I went home with a fat girl once a bunch of times.”

    myiq, you fuck, I’m fucking bleeding to death over here–and you’re making FAT Girl jokes???

    Last time I go on a job with you, buddy.

  396. 396
    Asti says:

    So, if your brother makes a racist comment, does mean you’re a racist yourself? Let’s all start only communicating with people who are just like us, because heaven forbid, if someone we know and spend time with believes something a little different, we’re going to be painted as believing the same things.

    I’m sorry, that is one of the stupidist arguments I’ve evern seen. Wright is NOT directly involved with the campaign, what he says has no bearing on Obama. Obama is a soft spoken gentleman who is trying to bring hope to a fairly hopeless world, and you’re “this could ruin him” comments help it along. Sorry.

  397. 397
    Martin says:

    I will repeat what I said before: he needs to make it clear what he saw in the guy DESPITE Wright’s drooling extremism on some subjects.

    Let’s take some comfort that we’ve only seen a few minutes of sermons that spanned 7 years. I’m guessing if there was more, we’d know about it by now.

    (Personally, I think he’s entertaining as hell and not at all offensive, but I’m just a godless liberal like that)

  398. 398
    Martin says:

    So, if your brother makes a racist comment, does mean you’re a racist yourself?

    Yes. I read Tom Sawyer when I was 11 and Jim was called a nigger. I had to denounce the library and never return because if I went back I’d be a racist.

  399. 399
    myiq2xu says:

    Rodney singing “Show them to me” is classic!

  400. 400
    myiq2xu says:

    Last time I go on a job with you, buddy.

    Dude! I’ve played “wingman” more times than you!

    Coyote Ugly? Coyote Fugly!

  401. 401
    myiq2xu says:

    Rodney singing “Titties and beer”

  402. 402
    myiq2xu says:

    Yes. I read Tom Sawyer when I was 11 and Jim was called a nigger. I had to denounce the library and never return because if I went back I’d be a racist.

    Ah, the logical fallacy of “false equivilency.”

    Truly a fellatious argument.

    One book in a library is not anywhere nearly the same as a 20 year relationship with the same “spiritual advisor.”

    Keep trying to ride those poor little jackalopes.

  403. 403
    myiq2xu says:

    Rodney singing “Dear Penis!”

    Comedy gold!

  404. 404
    Asti says:

    The pastor of my church, Rev. Jeremiah Wright, who recently preached his last sermon and is in the process of retiring, has touched off a firestorm over the last few days. He’s drawn attention as the result of some inflammatory and appalling remarks he made about our country, our politics, and my political opponents.

    Let me say at the outset that I vehemently disagree and strongly condemn the statements that have been the subject of this controversy. I categorically denounce any statement that disparages our great country or serves to divide us from our allies. I also believe that words that degrade individuals have no place in our public dialogue, whether it’s on the campaign stump or in the pulpit. In sum, I reject outright the statements by Rev. Wright that are at issue.

    An Obama campaign member makes a statement about HIllary being a monster and she’s off the campaign within hours. This thing about Obama’s pastor hits two days ago and within a short period of time he’s written a statement opposing the remarks the pastor made. If the Hillbots and the Wingnuts want to join hands and run roughshod over a man who is trying to run a clean campaign, all I can say is they deserve the country they get at the end of it.

    Did HIllary really oppose what Geraldine Ferraro said? No, not really. Did McCain every denounce that crazy evangelical catholic-hating pastor? Nope… but they’re going to do all they can to tear down the one man who is trying to run on inegrity? I give up on humanity. I don’t understand why people do the things they do anymore.

  405. 405
    cbear says:

    myiq,

    I’m out bro.

    I don’t know about you, but I haven’t laughed this hard in a long time. Good times.

  406. 406
    myiq2xu says:

    This is truly sad. I’m drunk off my ass and the trolls still have no game.

  407. 407
    Asti says:

    One book in a library is not anywhere nearly the same as a 20 year relationship with the same “spiritual advisor.”

    and just exactly what was Wright advising NoIQ, you must hae been a fly on that wall, you judgmental ass. You have no idea what was or was not said. You have only your imagination, and your sense of moral duty to justify that you know what kind of spiritual advise Wright gave to Obama. Who the fuck do you think you are?

  408. 408
    myiq2xu says:

    I don’t know about you, but I haven’t laughed this hard in a long time. Good times.

    I’m gonna sign off and watch the whole Rodney Carrington show thing. I’ll hurt myself laughing if I stay and read these lame-ass trolls.

  409. 409
    myiq2xu says:

    Who the fuck do you think you are?

    myiq2xu

    Duh!

  410. 410
    Asti says:

    “…It’s ironic that it could happen because a lot of people would be confident that McCain was just prostituting himself for votes, but fear that Obama might be HONESTLY sympathetic with some of Wright’s (frequent) loonier comments.”

    Bruce, what if I were to tell you that some of the loonier believes are things that a vast majority of the population hold? The problem isn’t with a man like Wright, it’s with the “moral majority” who think a virgin gave birht to God’s son, and the earth is 6,000 years old, and God divorced Israel an dis going to marry Christianity as his second wife (did you get that? God supposedly married Israel first and got divorced and because a Jewish man cannot remarry a woman he divorced, Christians believe God is going to marry the Christian church. Ummm, that is that kind of mindset that is influencing this nation.

  411. 411
    Asti says:

    myiq2xu

    Duh!

    Troll, make your point, not a joke. You know I’m right. You have no idea what kind of spiritual advise Obama was given by Wright, you are making value judgments with NO information.

  412. 412
    Martin says:

    One book in a library is not anywhere nearly the same as a 20 year relationship with the same “spiritual advisor.”

    You’ve seen all 20 years of sermons or only short excerpts from 2 or 3?

    So you just assume all black men are angry black men as well? Gotcha. If you want to keep a discussion going I’ll let you know that you probably only have two moves:

    1) admit that you only have only seen a tiny subset just as Tom Sawyer is only a tiny subset of the library and admit that everyone is casting too broad a net here (including you)
    2) suggest that the few minutes that we’ve seen over and over from the last 7 years are actually fully representative of Wright and concede my point here that you do think that any black man that delivers a 2 minute rant is always scary and ranty and stuff all the time.

    Actually, there is a third – continue to advance the notion that one of America’s ten most influential black pastors is a horrible person and that the black people who have named him as such have no sense of judgement or morality.

    (I’d go with #1 but #3 would be the most entertaining for me given that I’m pretty baked.)

  413. 413
    eastriver says:

    The stupid not only burns, it blinds.

    Remember; for most tightie-rightie bloggers, their computer is (in order of importance) 1) a masturbation tool, and 2) a deliverer of the hate.

    The keys get sticky. The mouse gets slippery. Silliness ensues.

  414. 414
    liberal says:

    I agree with Bruce Moomaw above: this could be very dangerous for Obama (whether we like that or not).

  415. 415
    Dave_Violence says:

    Shoot, Arnold had to apologize in public for stuff he’d done when he was a wild and crazy “kid” – 30 years prior to becoming the governator…

    Hey, you sit down with dogs, get up with fleas… Hillary!’s folks are digging this as it benefits their campaign; the Republicans (at least one of whom I know) shouldn’t really care because they’re not going to vote for Barry O’ in the first place.

  416. 416
    Rarely Posts says:

    How about we accept what Clinton says about what she believes and what Obama says about what he believes.

    Thank you.

  417. 417
    TR says:

    Does anyone think there’s any circumstance under which a set of mouthbreathing trolls like Confederate Yanker, Allahpundit, and Riehl Stupid would ever be persuaded by what Obama has to say about anything?

    Jesus Christ himself could come back down from heaven, anoint Obama as his chosen representative on this earth, and those assclowns would say they don’t trust Him because he has a Mexican-sounding name.

  418. 418
    Rarely Posts says:

    Martin,

    Freedom of speech doesn’t even apply. Not to Ferraro and not to Wright. No government entity is trying to suppress their freedom of speech. They are free to say as they please.

    My problem with the people here at BJ is they seem to believe it’s okay to claim Hillary is responsible for and shares the attitude of Ferraro while at the same time claiming Obama is not repsonsible for nor shares the attitude of Wright. Guess what, neither Clinton nor Obama are responsible for or share these attitudes. But here at BJ, Clinton doesn’t get the same benefit of the doubt as Obama.

    I’m also having trouble reconciling giving a black mark to McCain for Hagee’s support and a black mark to any republican for taking Falwell’s et. al support and not giving a black mark to Obama.

    It’s hypocritical in the extreme.

  419. 419
    ding7777 says:

    I heard my cab driver say “nigger” a month ago. I guess that means I am racist, right?

    No, but your cabbie is racist and you know it.

  420. 420
    Dennis - SGMM says:

    This finishes Obama. While we all argue about whether or not it’s fair to fault Obama for his long association with Wright, or whether or not Wright’s more inflammatory sermons are indicative of his patriotism, we forget that we live in a country where a drunken, marblemouthed fratboy was elected president over a sitting VP because the fratboy seemed to be the person you’d want to have a beer with. The same fratboy re-elected in part because his surrogates were able to cast doubt on the record of a decorated war veteran.

    We post about about things, particularly politics, because we care about them and actually take the time to think about politicians and issues. We represent a very tiny segment of the electorate. Most voters are influenced by the soundbites provided on the nooz, campaign commercials and the crap delivered up by 527’s. They have a dilly here, all they need to do is play the clips of Wright enough times and their work is done.

    Obama, despite his attainments, was stupid on this one. If he had any inkling that he would run for national office then he should have walked himself and his family out of Wright’s church during that September 11th sermon. Not because it was the correct thing to do but because Wright’s sermon could be used as a cudgel to beat Obama. It feeds directly into the Angry Black Man stereotype. It enables Obama’s opponents to beat the drum of racism without having to come up with any original attacks. “We’re not racists, we’re patriots. Just look at what this unpatriotic Angry Black Man is saying about America.” Lather, rinse, repeat.
    For a candidate who has worked so hard to avoid racial stereotypes, Obama left himself wide open on this one. And he’ll remain the Senator from Illinois because of it.

    No, it’s not fair. It’s neither logical nor particularly intelligent. Just like the electorate.

  421. 421
    bernarda says:

    I saw Obama on Keith Olbermann. Guess what? He plays the race card in defending his pastor who, holy ghost, brought him to jeebus.

    “Part of what we are seeing here is that Rev. Wright represents a generation that came of age in the sixties; he is an African-American man who because of his life experience continues to have a lot of anger and frustration and will continue to express that in ways that are very different from me”

    Gee, if I remember, a lot of other people came of age in the sixties too. Hillary Clinton for example.

    “a transition from the past to the future”. Yeah, if someone said that about racist rednecks, what do you think the response would be?

  422. 422
    dslak says:

    He plays the race card in defending his pastor

    To play the race card‘ doesn’t mean what you think it means.

  423. 423
    myiq2xu says:

    Martin Says:

    One book in a library is not anywhere nearly the same as a 20 year relationship with the same “spiritual advisor.”

    You’ve seen all 20 years of sermons or only short excerpts from 2 or 3?

    So you just assume all black men are angry black men as well? Gotcha. If you want to keep a discussion going I’ll let you know that you probably only have two moves:

    “Gotcha?” Not hardly. You put words in my mouth and try to define my “choices” based on those words. This is a common tactic in right-wing talk radio. From Tristero at Hullaballoo:

    It warms the cockles of my heart that Perlstein’s answer was to dispute the very premise of the question, a rhetorical tactic I have been advocating for years and one that is crucial if we are serious about re-creating an intelligent public discourse.

    To pose a question is to define the space of acceptable answers. My classic example, “So, would you rather that Saddam stay in power?” restricts the set of possible answers to equally bad, and unreasonable, choices. If you answer “no” then the inevitable follow up is, “Then you can have no serious objections to removing him, as the president wishes.” If you answer yes, then you’ll get, “So, you don’t care at all about the enslavement of the Iraqi people.”

    The phrasing of the question – a deliberate, cunningly crafted partisan stinkbomb – compels a particular kind of intellectual stupidity and debased reasoning. The only proper answer to, “So, would you rather that Saddam stay in power?” is to strenuously object to the nature of the question itself. But that was never done when it would have mattered. Even today, I can all but guarantee that at least 4 or 5 commenters will “rise to the challenge” and answer eithert yes or no, failing to recognize that the question is a setup.(emphasis added)

    Digby’s post quoting Spocko is also instructive:

    People like Rush, Hannity, Grover Norquist, Bill O’ Reilly and Coulter are the ones who create these kind of rhetorical games. They think up the frame. They then give them to their listeners who repeat them for their co-workers and family. My mom regularly uses the rhetorical tricks that Rush uses on the one person in the family who disagrees with her. But because this person doesn’t want to attack my mom she thinks she has “won the conversation”. Personally I hate having to have these conversations with people because I really don’t like confrontation. Especially if my goal it really to persuade and change someone’s mind rather than WIN the conversation. I think some men thing that if they humiliate the other person that they will then admit defeat. And that is what they want. “All right! You are right! I was wrong. You are the smarter person. I will change my ways!” These people often want to appeal to some third party and argue as if a impartial judge of debate is listening in.

    What do I gain if I “win” a conversation on talk radio? Even if I had a segment where they didn’t control my volume and my on button, if I “won” the argument the second I’m off the air they will mock me. They never modify their opinion with the correct information. See how often they bring back Zombie facts. As Monty nicely put it, it’s NOT about an “honest inquiry or debate.” (emphasis added)

    I have watched you engage in wingnut tactics for the last week or so. Prior to that I don’t recall seeing you here. You ask loaded or “set-up” questions, try to frame the debate, misstate peoples arguments, misrepresent your “evidence” so as to claim is shows something it does not, and you goldberg the meaning of words to support your arguments.

    Your use of wingnut memes and tactics reveals who you are. Military leaders learn to study the tactics and training of the enemy so they can accurately predict what the enemy will do. As an example, in the movie Patton when General Patton defeats Erwin Rommel in North Africa, he says “You bastard! I read your book!”

    Although that is a dramatization, the real Patton had been studying the tactics of the German Army since before the war started.

    The American and British intelligence services took this a step further. By learning how Soviet agents were trained, they were able to uncover spies by looking for common “trained” behaviors. By knowing what the spies were trained to do, they knew what to look for.

    You spout wingnut memes. You utilize wingnut tactics. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, chances are it’s a duck.

    Begone, wingnut troll!

  424. 424
    dslak says:

    Dennis, you seem to be panicking. It’s hard to tell how this kind of thing will shake out, so I wouldn’t draw any hard conclusions from it.

    The situation with his pastor has been known about by people who have been following the Obama campaign for quite a while now. None of his supporters should have been under the illusion that it wouldn’t be an issue.

  425. 425
    libarbarian says:

    ‘To play the race card’ doesn’t mean what you think it means.

    Apparently it now means to say anything to make white Democrats feel guilty.

  426. 426
    zzyzx says:

    I actually can understand disliking Obama due to his supporters as I’ve been frustrated by Clinton supporters lately who don’t seem to have anything good to say about her, but spend all of their energy trying to find random scandals to stick on Obama. I’m starting to believe that the general will actually be an easier election, because there will be huge policy differences to discuss.

    Last night I was terrified over the Wright thing. This morning, I went to CNN and MSNBC and a bunch of newspapers and it was the 20th biggest story if even that. Obama is an incredible defuser.

    Will this hurt him in November? Maybe, but largely among the people who were looking for a reason to hate him now that their dream candidate (in terms of rallying their base to go out against) is gone. It gets harder though when you have to show the same 3 clips over and over again and they aren’t even from Obama.

  427. 427
    dslak says:

    At least one of the problem with the theology of people like Wright, Robertson, and Falwell is that they subscribe to the Old Testament notion of collective punishment. That’s why they talk about how God is/is going to mete out his wrath about America.

    Most of the time, the “evil” of this particular kind of condemnation depends on the circumstances in which it occurs. For example, Robertson and Falwell’s blaming 9/11 on America was deplored by people primarily because it was so soon afterwards and the wound was still raw. Otherwise, most people just see fit to ignore those two, anyway.

    The other occasions that lead to objection to such condemnation is contemporary political positions. Those on the religious right who subscribe to some notion of collective punishment will blame its necessity on something like abortion or tolerance of gays. Liberals find the idea that God would punish people en masse for these things objectionable, and they find the people who would have us believe such things objectionable.

    On the other hand, people like Wright are saying that America is punished for terrorizing other countries and having no concern for the impact of its racist policies, both past and present. Most liberals agree that America has engaged in these practices, and that something ought to be done about it (but they would’t all agree that divine retribution is what’s needed).

    Wright is still talking about issues of justice from the same perspective of most liberals, and if it weren’t for Obama running against Hillary, they would probably defend his remarks in much the same way many Obama supporters are doing now.

    Nobody who supports my policy positions is always going to do so for the right or even the most noble reasons. That’s simply impossible to achieve, and naive to hope for in a democratic society. Although I don’t agree with Wright’s rationalisations as a whole, I’ll still take his influence over that of Falwell and Robertson, and when it comes to the general election, if it’s Hillary vs. McCain, the Hillary supporters will say the same thing.

  428. 428
    Dennis - SGMM says:

    Dennis, you seem to be panicking. It’s hard to tell how this kind of thing will shake out, so I wouldn’t draw any hard conclusions from it.

    Not panicking. I waited until this morning to post about the situation because I wanted to think things through. I even read all of the four-hundred-and-some-odd prior posts before adding my two cents’ worth. Although I’m writing from the perspective of someone who’s spent a little over four decades of being interested in politics I truly hope that I’m wrong this time.

  429. 429
    myiq2xu says:

    This finishes Obama.

    I wouldn’t go that far, but it will be a problem. I see a lot of false equivalence arguments being made concerning Wright.

    When Obama supporters try to dismiss the controvery by comparing Wright to Hagee or Ferraro, they are being dishonest.

    Hagee was not McCain’s “spiritual advisor” for 20 years, nor was Ferraro the pastor of Hillary’s church. It’s not that easy to step away from someone you have held close for so long. And the relationship was voluntary. You can’t pick your family, but you can pick your friends.

    I’ve only seen a few select clips, and I have no idea what the bulk of Wright’s sermons were like. But the clips I’ve seen are not the kind of thing a Presidential candidate wants to be associated with. A minister can criticize our government or our national morality without saying “God damn America.” That’s gonna leave a mark, especially in the Bible Belt states.

    Pleading ignorance makes Obama look stupid or dishonest. He went to this church, got married there, had his daughters baptized there. Are we supposed to believe that Wright only spouted off when Obama wasn’t there?

    The argument that people don’t always agree with the teachings of their church is weak. if you disagree so strongly, why do you keep attending?

    Nor should people dismiss the issue as unimportant, an issue of religious freedom, or racist. People can legitimately question whether Obama’s voluntary association with Rev. Wright reflects on his personal beliefs without being racists. Just because some people consider it unimportant doesn’t mean everyone will, and while everyone is free to practice their own religion (or none at all) that doesn’t mean that extremist religious views are unimportant.

    Wright’s “retirement” is a jackalope. Stepping down now doesn’t undo a 20 year relationship. Arguing that “it’s a black thing” and that we need to understand the unique quality of “black” churches won’t fly in middle America either.

    As for the argument that the right-wing can’t call Obama a stealth Muslim and at the same time criticize him for attending Wright’s church; since when was logical consistency a requirement for a wingnut? Not only that, but there are probably many people who thought the Muslim rumors were silly, but will find this to be a valid concern.

    The real problem for Obama is that this gives the closet racists ammunition to attack him. They can use Rev. Wright’s words to accuse Obama (guilt by association) of racism and being unpatriotic while pretending that it has nothing to do with Obama or Wright’s race. It also revives Michelle’s comment about being proud of her country for the first time.

    I know the Obama supporters here and throughout the blogosphere think it’s unfair. Nobody ever said it would be. I don’t think Obama is a racist or hates America. I think he was stupid to stay affiliated with Wright if he wanted to run for high office. He should have found a more mainstream church years ago.

    I’m sure I’ll be hearing from the Obots who are always eager to misrepresent my words. Bark and yap all you want. It’s not what I think that matters here.

  430. 430
    dslak says:

    Although I’m writing from the perspective of someone who’s spent a little over four decades of being interested in politics I truly hope that I’m wrong this time.

    The reliability of a lot of people’s past experience is being tested in this election. This story isn’t likely to affect anyone who was inclined to vote for Obama in the first place.

    The fact is, nearly all of us – black and white – are close to somebody who professes some racist views, but we still consider that person to be an important part of our lives. Stories like this might be politically useful for peeling off potential Obama voters who have some kind of double-standard for blacks, but I seriously doubt many from that demographic were going to go for Obama, anyway.

  431. 431
    myiq2xu says:

    At least one of the problem with the theology of people like Wright, Robertson, and Falwell is that they subscribe to the Old Testament notion of collective punishment. That’s why they talk about how God is/is going to mete out his wrath about America.

    Most of the time, the “evil” of this particular kind of condemnation depends on the circumstances in which it occurs. For example, Robertson and Falwell’s blaming 9/11 on America was deplored by people primarily because it was so soon afterwards and the wound was still raw. Otherwise, most people just see fit to ignore those two, anyway.

    You need to remember that the patriotism of a right-winger is assumed, but for us lefties it must be proven.

    It is one of the big propaganda successes of the wingnuts of the last 3-40 years. It’s not right, it’s not fair, it pisses me off, but it’s a reality in politics.

  432. 432
    myiq2xu says:

    Nobody ever said it would be.

    Add the word “fair” to the end of that.

    3-40 years

    That should be 30-40.

    Fucking decaf

  433. 433
    dslak says:

    You need to remember that the patriotism of a right-winger is assumed, but for us lefties it must be proven.

    At dinner last night, a Brit asked me why it was that, in recent history, it has been Democrats who are more likely to start or get involved with wars in other countries. This was the reason I gave.

    I don’t see the Wright problem as being all that serious, theologically. Black churches tend to take the role of the “prophet” a bit more seriously than mainstream churches in general, and one of the roles of the prophet is to condemn a sinful and unreprentant society. Hence “God damn America.”

    You’re certainly right that that probably won’t fly in “middle America,” but since when did anything that had to do with the history of the oppression of blacks and the legislation resulting from the civil rights movement do so?

  434. 434
    Rarely Posts says:

    It turns out, according to CNN, that Wright was a member of Obama’s campaign. He is no longer a member. Obama also has said Wrights statements that Hillary wouldn’t be where she was if she wasn’t white was not an opinion he shared.

    Wright’s opinion, IMO, on Hillary’s lack of blackness isn’t racist in the same way Ferraro’s original comments weren’t racist.

    And Obama’s reaction to Wright are good enough for me.

    I can only hope this ends the nonsense the Obamabots are spewing over Ferraro, but I have my doubts.

  435. 435
    dslak says:

    Ferraro and Wright’s comments are just part of the “Who has it worse: blacks or women?” aspect of the identity politics game.

    Neither Ferraro nor Wright’s comments were racist; they were both trying to stake out who had the most right to the “victim” position that succesful identity politics requires them to occupy.

  436. 436
    myiq2xu says:

    The fact is, nearly all of us – black and white – are close to somebody who professes some racist views, but we still consider that person to be an important part of our lives.

    We’re not all running for President and our “spiritual advisors” aren’t on YouTube.

    If Obama was a member of the Nation of Islam (he isn’t) his candidacy would have been DOA. This isn’t nearly as bad, but as an apostate fundie I can say that I never saw a minister of my former church say “God damn America.”

    The minister of a Christian church is considered to be a shepard tending his flock. He is supposed to set the standard for morality. He is more than just “a friend.”

    Obama is between a rock and a hard place here. To quell the “stealth Muslim” rumors he needed to hold up his church as proof he is a Christian. Now he can’t just run away from his church.

  437. 437
    TR says:

    “a transition from the past to the future”. Yeah, if someone said that about racist rednecks, what do you think the response would be?

    Well, let’s look at the quote:

    And so, part of what we`re seeing here is a transition from the past to the future. And I hope that our politics represents the future.

    If a southern white man said redneck racist politics were part of the past and my politics represent the future, I think we’d be praising him as we did Jimmy Carter in 1970 or Bill Clinton in 1992.

    Learn to read.

  438. 438
    John S. says:

    When Obama supporters try to dismiss the controvery by comparing Wright to Hagee or Ferraro, they are being dishonest.

    Sesame Street could tackle this nonsense…remember the segment One of These Things Is Not Like the Other?

    Hagee: A religious figure that McCain had no spiritual involvement with who gave him political support.

    Wright: A religious figure that Obama had spiritual involvement with who gave him political support.

    Ferraro: A political figure that Clinton had political involvement with who gave her political support.

    Is this really not clear to anyone? I agree that in all three cases, the politician should have distanced themselves from the figure with all due haste (even though this only happened with the two Democrats). But the circumstances are not even remotely similar.

    McCain and Clinton dealt with their controversial figures purely on a political level. That is it. There was no other relationship whatsoever. Obama primarily had dealings with Wright on a spiritual level. He was his pastor, counselor and friend for 20 years and his political support was entirely secondary. If you look at what makes Wright controversial, it is his political views – not his spiritual views.

    There couldn’t be any clearer evidence to support that religion and politics do not – and should not – mix.

  439. 439
    TR says:

    Obama is between a rock and a hard place here. To quell the “stealth Muslim” rumors he needed to hold up his church as proof he is a Christian. Now he can’t just run away from his church.

    Yep. Black men have it so easy.

  440. 440
    myiq2xu says:

    Black men have it so easy.

    Nobody said they did. What was it Chris Rock said?

    “There isn’t a white guy in America that would trade places with me. And I’m rich!”

  441. 441
    dslak says:

    We’re not all running for President and our “spiritual advisors” aren’t on YouTube.

    You seem to be suggesting that potential presidents should be an island. I don’t share that view, but I can see how it might be appealing, as people with pasts tend to be susceptical to possible scandals.

    This isn’t nearly as bad, but as an apostate fundie I can say that I never saw a minister of my former church say “God damn America.”

    I typically take theological perspective prefaced with “I used to be a fundie” as really meaning “I don’t know much about theology.” This isn’t meant as a personal slam on you, but it needs to be recognized that fundamentalist Christianity and theological sophistication don’t exactly go hand-in-hand.

    On the other hand, of course you’ll never see a conservative white preacher say “God damn America,” because they blame all the problems on America on a select, “not-us” group, which isn’t sufficiently American. Being American is simply to agree with that preacher’s position, so of course he’ll never say “God damn America,” as he would be damning himself.

    The minister of a Christian church is considered to be a shepard tending his flock. He is supposed to set the standard for morality. He is more than just “a friend.”

    Ministers aren’t supposed to set the standard for morality, but you’re right about the rest of this. The idea that ministers are morally better than the rest of us is something that is more common to variations of fundamentalist or conservative evangelical churches than it is to other denominations.

    Obama is between a rock and a hard place here. To quell the “stealth Muslim” rumors he needed to hold up his church as proof he is a Christian. Now he can’t just run away from his church.

    I don’t think he’ll need to, because people who go to church know that, as a community, it’s more than just its minister. This is even more true of black churches.

  442. 442
    Conservatively Liberal says:

    I read over at Kos that Taylor Marsh was a Reagan Democrat. Say no more, that explains everything to me…lol! Now I understand why she supports Hillary.

    There was a great pie fight over at Kos with Alegre posting a diary about her going on ‘strike’ and no longer posting at Kos. She was joined by Jerome Armstrong, Susan Hu and a bunch of the Clintonistas, and the diary was a riot to read. Others came in declaring that they were going on strike too, adding to the merriment. Jeff Lieber wrote diary tearing into Alegre for lifting the motto that the writers used in their strike, and he pointed out that this was not anything like a strike.

    It looks like the whole thing was a planned hit diary, and they all ganged up to make it look dramatic. They crossposted at other Hillary blogs (Taylor Marsh, MyDDHRC and such), and even the infamous Armando was mentioned! Though the diary made the rec list it went off it pretty fast, and it was met with plenty of derision. This is a great example of people who can dish out the BS, but can’t take it when they are called on it. Alegre has even pledged in the recent past not to do what she has been doing, but it looks like that pledge went out the window. What is it with Clinton and her supporters not liking to keep pledges? ;)

    Still, it was a great fight, and it was pretty silly of them to fold up camp and stop promoting their candidate. Oh, right. They have not been promoting Hillary lately, they have been tearing Obama apart for having the audacity to run against the Hilldebeest.

    Why is it they are supporting Hillary? What should they be trying to sell everyone else on instead of tearing into Obama in the hopes of destroying him so ‘their girl’ can win? Why do I see the name “Hussein” used over and over again on pro Hillary sites like they are some liberal/freeper bastardization? Their message is negative, and that is what they are going to get in feedback for delivering it.

    The more the Clintonistas rant and rage, the more they hurt their candidate. You are not going to get people to support your candidate by insulting them, calling them cultists, deriding them as being uninformed or just stupid, and telling them their state does not count. The latte sipping, Birkenstock wearing, Volvo driving snide remark is so far off target it shows how out of touch Hillary’s camp is with reality.

    My wife and I are in our 40’s and are blue collar, left leaning independents. We drive an Olds and a Ford, we drink coffee flavored coffee and buy whatever inexpensive shoes we can afford. We are voting for Obama, and so are a lot of other people. Contrary to what Bill said, we need a president.

    Not Hillary.

  443. 443
    dslak says:

    I read over at Kos that Taylor Marsh was a Reagan Democrat. Say no more, that explains everything to me…

    I thought the Reagan Democrats were supposed be the group Obama was attracting. You can’t have it both ways and say that it’s good that Obama can attract Reagan Democrats, but then that Reagan Democrats are idiots who supported Reagan and Hillary.

    On the other hand, if you just want to complain about the failings of Hillary supporters, you could do worse than this.

  444. 444
    myiq2xu says:

    You seem to be suggesting that potential presidents should be an island. I don’t share that view, but I can see how it might be appealing, as people with pasts tend to be susceptical to possible scandals.

    There is a difference between the way things ought to be and the way they are. There are a lot of things that unfairly “disqualify” people from office, but the rules aren’t consistent.

    By the way, if anyone is expecting me to be gloating about this, I’m not. I want Hillary to win, but I don’t want to see Obama destroyed. If this kerfluffle tanks his candidacy or causes him to lose in November, he’s done. He can remain in the Senate, but he’ll never get another shot at the White House. That would not be a good thing.

  445. 445
    John S. says:

    “God damn America”

    The phrasing of this is entirely wrong, but you people do realize that G-d does not in fact bless America, right? Not to go all religious (this is the topic at hand) but the bible says [Jeremiah 10:23-25]:

    I well know, O Lord, that to earthling man his way does not belong. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step. Correct me, O Lord, however with judgment; not in your anger, that you may not reduce me to nothing. Pour out your rage upon the nations who have ignored you, and upon the families who have not called even upon your name.

    Not exactly a rousing endorsement of the kingdoms of mankind.

  446. 446
    dslak says:

    There is a difference between the way things ought to be and the way they are. There are a lot of things that unfairly “disqualify” people from office, but the rules aren’t consistent.

    Sure, but that just makes the candidate without a past (or a conveniently concocted, media-friendly one) the best, doesn’t it? That standard rules out both the Democratic front-runners, by the way.

    Myiq, I like you better when you’re not trying to troll Obama supporters.

  447. 447
    John S. says:

    I want Hillary to win, but I don’t want to see Obama destroyed.

    Too bad your candidate of choice doesn’t share your view.

  448. 448
    myiq2xu says:

    You are not going to get people to support your candidate by insulting them

    I see we do agree on something

  449. 449
    John S. says:

    Black men have it so easy.

    Nobody said they did.

    Actually, that’s exactly what Geraldine Ferraro said.

  450. 450
    dslak says:

    Too bad your candidate of choice doesn’t share your view.

    Hillary has said that she’ll rally support for Obama if he’s the nominee. Sure, she may have gone for some easy, below-the-belt shots when she thought it gave her a chance at winning, but that’s not at all unusual.

    Are we going to condemn every Democrat who’s ever done that as beneath our contempt?

  451. 451
    myiq2xu says:

    Myiq, I like you better when you’re not trying to troll Obama supporters.

    Who is trolling who?

    Too bad your candidate of choice doesn’t share your view.

    From Spocko (via Digby):

    Personally I hate having to have these conversations with people because I really don’t like confrontation. Especially if my goal it really to persuade and change someone’s mind rather than WIN the conversation. I think some men thing that if they humiliate the other person that they will then admit defeat.

    snip

    As Monty nicely put it, it’s NOT about an “honest inquiry or debate.”

  452. 452
    dslak says:

    Being an asshole and trolling aren’t the same thing (although there may be a good argument to be had that all trolls are assholes).

    I’m not talking about fucking with pro-Obama assholes. I’m talking about instances of trolling everyone who supports Obama over Hillary.

  453. 453
    dslak says:

    By the way, myiq, when you say that something is from somewhere, it’s considered polite to provide a link. I’m not saying this because I doubt your references, but without a link, it’s not easy to locate your source to get the full context, should I be interested in reading it.

  454. 454
    TR says:

    myiq2xu Says:

    Black men have it so easy.

    Nobody said they did.

    Geraldine Ferraro.

  455. 455
    myiq2xu says:

    Actually, that’s exactly what Geraldine Ferraro said.

    (sigh)

    No, she said that one particular black man was benefitting from the color of his skin in this particular race.

    We keep hearing about how exciting and historic this election is because of Hillary and Obama. Why is it historic and exciting? Because one is a woman and the other is black. Does her gender and his race give them a boost? You bet.

    Does that mean that they are otherwise unqualified “affirmative action” candidates? Fuck no.

  456. 456
    myiq2xu says:

    By the way, myiq, when you say that something is from somewhere, it’s considered polite to provide a link.

    Sorry, I wasn’t caffeinated yet.

    Tristero

    Spocko

  457. 457
    dslak says:

    No, she said that one particular black man was benefitting from the color of his skin in this particular race.

    She also added that people were “caught up in the concept,” but conveniently neglected to mention that some feminists might be voting for Hillary because of her gender. It could just be political (you don’t want to slam your own supporters), but it could also be because she can’t see it.

    Does that mean that they are otherwise unqualified “affirmative action” candidates?

    Unless she was arguing that Hillary is in some way qualified for the presidency in a way that Obama isn’t, and that people were unable to see that deficiency in Obama because they’re too focused on his skin color, then yes.

    Ferraro certainly wasn’t saying that black men have it easy, by the way. She was saying that Obama’s skin color has played some role in how he got where he is. While that is certainly true, as a straight-up statement, it looks more like “Obama’s skin color is the main reason why he is where he is.” That is most certainly false, and it’s what has people up in arms.

    That’s certainly a reasonable interpretation, and nothing Ferraro has said since would give anyone inclined toward that interpretation any reason to think that they were wrong.

  458. 458
    myiq2xu says:

    Ferraro certainly wasn’t saying that black men have it easy, by the way. She was saying that Obama’s skin color has played some role in how he got where he is. While that is certainly true, as a straight-up statement, it looks more like “Obama’s skin color is the main reason why he is where he is.” That is most certainly false, and it’s what has people up in arms.

    What she said was, at the very least, politically stupid. Some people see racism in her words, others do not. God will judge.

    I was responding to two posts that asserted that Ferraro said “Black men have it so easy.” She never said that.

  459. 459
    dslak says:

    Some people see racism in her words, others do not. God will judge.

    If her political stupidity were restricted to just that one incident, and not all the numerous interviews afterwards as well, there would be have been little need to punt to God.

  460. 460
    AkaDad says:

    I can’t support Obama until he gives this pastor a swift kick in the junk.

  461. 461
    myiq2xu says:

    If her political stupidity were restricted to just that one incident, and not all the numerous interviews afterwards as well, there would be have been little need to punt to God.

    I said very little when the issue first surfaced other than Ferraro was saying dumbass shit and that I was sure Hillary would want her to STFU.

    If someone want to slam Ferraro for what she actually said, fine. I have no objections. But when they “interpret” her words by reading her mind or, even worse, make up words, that’s unfair.

    As for punting to God, I don’t know what’s in Geraldine’s heart, nor can I read her mind.

  462. 462
    dslak says:

    I can’t support Obama until he gives this pastor a swift kick in the junk.

    I can’t support Obama until he kicks everyone in the junk, even the ladies!

    As for punting to God, I don’t know what’s in Geraldine’s heart, nor can I read her mind.

    My point was that she had a rather large platform on which to clarify what she meant, yet everything she said only further obfuscated the matter.

    Some of her choices in venues, such as a network and program which is hostile to Democratics generally and Hillary in particular, seems to indicate that she was marketing a message or that she is vainglorious.

    Of course, she could have just been seeking to air a clarification on every medium available, but she failed miserably, if that was her goal.

  463. 463
    Rarely Posts says:

    I see my prediction was correct.

    Ferraro’s comments had nothing to do with AA, otherwise she would not have included the statement that if Obama were a woman of any color he wouldn’t be where he was. Last time I check women of any color benefited by AA as well.

  464. 464
    orogeny says:

    I don’t like the weaseling on the AUMF vote.

    This is something that Obama supporters keep harping on. When Senator Clinton voted for the AUMF (along with Dodd, Biden, Kerry, Edwards and a lot of other Dems) she made a floor speech outlining why she voted the way she did. Since then, she has basically said, over and over again, that she meant what she said in that speech and based on what she believed at the time, she doesn’t back away from the vote. You argument against Clinton seems to be based on the fact that you believe she was lying about why she voted the way she did. So, isn’t it just a matter of opinion? Do you have evidence that she was lying then about the way she intended for Bush to use the UAMF? Were Kerry, Dodd, Edwards, Biden, et’al. all lying as well? Edwards has admitted that he thinks his vote was a mistake, but he doesn’t say that it was just political calculation, which is what the Obama supporters regularly insist about Hillary’s vote.

  465. 465
    dslak says:

    I see my prediction was correct.

    Well, Often Hacks, it’s easy to have true predictions after-the-fact, isn’t it?

    I see you also fail to realize that the fact that “women vs. blacks” is a false dichotomy means that no one would ever use it.

  466. 466
    myiq2xu says:

    Some of her choices in venues, such as a network and program which is hostile to Democratics generally and Hillary in particular, seems to indicate that she was marketing a message or that she is vainglorious.

    I’d go with option “c” – Dumbass

    Her original comments were made during a speech in SoCal and were reported in a small local rag. When kos found out and started pushing the story it went national. Then Ferraro compounded the felony instead of just shutting up.

    If Hillary wanted to intentionally push that message (which I seriously doubt) I would expect her to use someone who was not publically connected to her campaign for plausible deniability.

    I find it kind of amusing that some people push the meme that everything Hillary says or does is a carefully calculated part of some diabolical plan and yet they also think she is stupid and inept.

  467. 467
    dslak says:

    Edwards has admitted that he thinks his vote was a mistake, but he doesn’t say that it was just political calculation

    ‘Mistake’ and ‘political calculation’ are not exclusive categories. The form of the complaint about Clinton is that she refuses to admit it’s a mistake. Maybe she shouldn’t, but “some Obama supporters say she only voted for it out of political calculation” doesn’t defuse that criticism.

  468. 468
    John S. says:

    No, she said that one particular black man was benefitting from the color of his skin in this particular race.

    It all depends on what the definition of “is” is.

  469. 469
    dslak says:

    If Hillary wanted to intentionally push that message (which I seriously doubt) I would expect her to use someone who was not publically connected to her campaign for plausible deniability.

    Well, now Ferraro is going to “unofficially” help Hillary, so those inclined to see intent would probably agree with you.

    I find it kind of amusing that some people push the meme that everything Hillary says or does is a carefully calculated part of some diabolical plan and yet they also think she is stupid and inept.

    It’s a curious thing how the powerful enemies of the paranoid are so often both all-powerful and inept.

  470. 470
    orogeny says:

    The form of the complaint about Clinton is that she refuses to admit it’s a mistake.

    If she believes that her vote was the right thing to do, but Bush misused the authorization to go to war in spite of his statement that he was going to exhaust all other avenues first, then the vote itself was not a mistake. So, it would be appropriate to accuse Clinton of being stubborn and refusing to admit she was wrong to trust Bush, but that doesn’t make her actions the war-mongering, politically-calculating monstrosities that Obama supporters regularly make them out to be.

  471. 471
    John S. says:

    From Spocko (via Digby)

    I see your Spocko and raise you an Ezra Klein:

    That seems exactly right. Clarity is the enemy of the Clinton campaign. Not because she isn’t a good candidate, or because she doesn’t “deserve” the nomination, or because she wouldn’t be a good president. But because she’s already lost the nomination contest on points. So the only way for her to win is if she’s able to get Obama disqualified.

    Apparently I’m not the only one who thinks that Clinton is out to destroy Obama. Nor am I the only one that seems to think that Ferraro’s point is that this campaign has been so much easier for Obama because he’s black.

    People see things in different ways. Opinions are funny like that. Maybe you should change your handle to myopinion2xu. That seems to fit better.

  472. 472
    dslak says:

    that doesn’t make her actions the war-mongering, politically-calculating monstrosities that Obama supporters regularly make them out to be.

    Perhaps not in itself, but then Obama supporters would raise you a Kyl/Lieberman.

  473. 473
    orogeny says:

    Yes, she voted for Kyl-Lieberman. But so did Durbin, Shumer, Reid, and 25 other Democrats. Are they all just a bunch of war-mongers? Is it even remotely possible that they genuinely believe that the vote would be useful in restraining Iran? Are you so cynical that you can only believe that those who disagree with you HAVE to have an ulterior motive? Hillary does things sometimes that I disagree with. Artur Davis, my representative here in Alabama, who I have , supported, worked for and voted for, often votes in ways that I disagree with, but I still support him because he’s better by far than the alternatives.

  474. 474
    dslak says:

    But so did Durbin, Shumer, Reid, and 25 other Democrats. Are they all just a bunch of war-mongers?

    I think “Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me” would be an appropriate response. My statement was only that Obama supporters would point to that as further evidence for their claim that Clinton 1) is a war-monger, 2) votes primarily out of political expediency, or 3) is just another spineless Democrat. You seem to want to shoot the messenger.

    Are you so cynical that you can only believe that those who disagree with you HAVE to have an ulterior motive?

    Are you so hungry for a fight that you have to assign positions to people in order to attack them?

  475. 475
    myiq2xu says:

    Are you so cynical that you can only believe that those who disagree with you HAVE to have an ulterior motive?

    I’ve had several people I was agreeing with accuse me of having ulterior motives.

    TZ gets mad at me when I agree with him. Sometimes I do it just for fun.

  476. 476
    orogeny says:

    I guess I misunderstood your post. I thought you were saying that the combination of those two votes proved that her actions were “the war-mongering, politically-calculating monstrosities” that they are so often made out to be. If that wasn’t your intention, I apologize. But, I do feel that a large percentage of the Obama supporters that I read on this and other blogs are so cynical about Clinton that they will not even entertain the idea that she could do anything out of personal belief.

    I don’t understand the “fool me once” reference. Virtually all of the Dems who voted for K-L also voted for the AUMF.

  477. 477
    dslak says:

    But, I do feel that a large percentage of the Obama supporters that I read on this and other blogs are so cynical about Clinton that they will not even entertain the idea that she could do anything out of personal belief.

    This is inevitably true of some subset of a politician’s campaign. In fact, the attempt by some Hillary supporters to tar all Obama supporters as being starry-eyed sheep is just another version of it.

    I don’t understand the “fool me once” reference.

    If you acknowledge that Bush did not act in good faith in the first instance, why would you rely on his good faith in the second one?

    Virtually all of the Dems who voted for K-L also voted for the AUMF.

    Hence why many think they haven’t learned their lesson.

  478. 478
    Chris Johnson says:

    OK, so that’ll be reject and denounce AND kick in the junk. Any other requests?

  479. 479
    myiq2xu says:

    Whoops! Maybe he did know. From Corrente:

    That was what the Obama campaign said to Obama’s pastor when disinviting him from the announcement of his Presidential run. Times, March 6, 2007:

    Mr. Wright said that in the phone conversation in which Mr. Obama disinvited him from a role in the announcement, Mr. Obama cited an article in Rolling Stone, “The Radical Roots of Barack Obama.”

    According to the pastor, Mr. Obama then told him, “You can get kind of rough in the sermons, so what we’ve decided is that it’s best for you not to be out there in public.”

  480. 480
    dslak says:

    Whoops! Maybe he did know.

    I already said upthread that he knew, so why does Corrente get the credit? Even Sully said months ago that his pastor was a liability on this stuff.

  481. 481
    ThymeZone says:

    TZ gets mad at me when I agree with him. Sometimes I do it just for fun.

    You will burn in hell for eternity for this.

    Okay, maybe a week, but still. Ow.

  482. 482
    orogeny says:

    This is inevitably true of some subset of a politician’s campaign

    I have yet to see the set of Obama supporters, at least on the blogs that I read, who are not that cynical about Senator Clinton. I often read Clinton supporters, myself included, who write that Obama will make a good candidate and president if he’s the nominee and wins the election, and they they will vote for him if that is the case. If there have been any Obama supporters here on on KOS or Americablog or TPM that have made similar statements, I’ve managed to miss all but 1 or 2.

  483. 483
    ThymeZone says:

    Yes, she voted for Kyl-Lieberman. But so did Durbin, Shumer, Reid, and 25 other Democrats. Are they all just a bunch of war-mongers?

    War mongers, no.

    Damned fools, possibly. It depends on what the actual game is, and the answer to that is known only to the insiders. We only see the theatrical front that the two sides put up, we don’t see the screenplay.

    When I try to figure it out, I start with the assumption that there are three machines at work: The Dems, the GOP, and the Two Party System, the master machine. The players will not do anything to cause any real damage to the master machine, or so they think. I like to think that the people are finally getting wise to, and tired of, the master machine and its bullshit, and that’s why you see the popularity of Obama, and for that matter, Ron Paul.

  484. 484
    tBone says:

    Do you have evidence that she was lying then about the way she intended for Bush to use the UAMF? Were Kerry, Dodd, Edwards, Biden, et’al. all lying as well?

    I think they were, at the very least, being disingenous. Anyone with enough gray matter to fill a thimble knew what the end result of the AUMF vote would be. So yeah, I think Clinton, Kerry, Dodd, Edwards, and a lot of other Democrats made a cynical, chickenshit vote, and it’s entirely fair to call them on it.

    Votes for Kyl-Lieberman were even more sickeningly craven.

  485. 485
    orogeny says:

    Damned fools, possibly. It depends on what the actual game is, and the answer to that is known only to the insiders. We only see the theatrical front that the two sides put up, we don’t see the screenplay”

    Have you read Joe Wilson’s article at Huffington? He makes a pretty convincing argument as the what the actual game is.

    At least Clinton showed up for the vote.

  486. 486
    dslak says:

    Orogeny, rather than try to do this by blog sample, let’s just put that meme to rest, shall we?

  487. 487
    ThymeZone says:

    Wilson’s article is an interesting look at the thing from another perspective, and I agree with some of what he says.

    But I don’t agree with his conclusions. For example, I can look at Obama’s opt-out of the game in a completely different way: I can see it as a rejection of the machine, the master power mechanism that requires backroom cooperation between the parties and is out to mainly hide its true operations from us, the people.

    Notice that the people who engineered this resolution did nothing to explain it to the people, or sell the concepts, or explaing the process. They put it together, voted on it, and then let the noise machines deal with it.

    Do we think that they did this casually, or accidentally? No, they did it deliberately and with full calculation. They do everything this way. They do not expose their methods or show us their homework. They play the media noise machines like an orchestra, and they laugh at us while we sit out here and grind our teeth.

    Wilson has it half right, but that’s not enough.

  488. 488
    ThymeZone says:

    And, orogeny, in case this isn’t yet clear, my support for Obama is based in part on his rejection of the machine, his refusal to get pulled into the big power games. That’s not abdication, that’s a rational response … and it’s the one I myself would employ if I were in there.

    I think he knows how corrupt and how venal that power machine really is, and I think he hates it as much as I do.

    Sure, he knows that the machine will send the hyenas to bark at him for not voting. That’s what machines do. I applaud him for having the guts to put himself in that position. It’s what I hope I would do in the same circumstances. He knows that the machine will destroy him just for sport, and his ability to outgame it is time-limited and very very iffy. That’s why I have sent him $1200 so far and will send him all of my allotted $2300 before it’s over.

  489. 489
    orogeny says:

    dslak,

    I deliberately said “on the blogs that I read”. I’ll be the first to admit that Obama has some problems with conservative Dems in the general. There is no question that a fair number of Reagan Democrats will choose McCain over Obama for a multitude of reasons, race being the primary one. Hillary gets those voters, Obama doesn’t. (BTW,the fact that racists will vote for a white candidate over a black does not make the white candidate a racist.)

    That’s one of the reasons that I think the Wright issue will be important in the general and that I was glad to see Obama effectively distance himself from Wright’s comments today.

    What I’m saying is that on the blogs where the hard core Obama supporters congregate, this site for example, Hillary Clinton is almost universally vilified.

  490. 490
    Rarely Posts says:

    Well, Often Hacks, it’s easy to have true predictions after-the-fact, isn’t it?

    After the fact? I have the feeling you don’t often know what you are talking about.

  491. 491
    ThymeZone says:

    Hillary Clinton is almost universally vilified.

    Everybody has their own reasons for this, these are mine:

    One, and foremost, I see her as a classic insider, member of the master power machine, and loyal to that machine before all. In this, she is typical, but that just makes it worse from my perspective. AUMF and KL are just examples.

    Two, and a close second, I don’t trust her. As a loyal member of the machine, her loyalites lie with the powerful, not with my interests, not with the sovereignty of the people. She talks people, but acts and votes power. I don’t like her and I don’t trust her.

    You can call that “villification” if you like, I call it a rational appraisal of her history, her record, and her character. I might be wrong …. but I don’t think so.

  492. 492
    dslak says:

    What I’m saying is that on the blogs where the hard core Obama supporters congregate, this site for example, Hillary Clinton is almost universally vilified.

    Do you for some reason think that the reverse is not true on the blogs frequented by Hillary supporters?

    Now, as for Often Hacks:

    After the fact? I have the feeling you don’t often know what you are talking about.

    By all means, please show us your prediction and then where it was borne out.

  493. 493
    orogeny says:

    TZ,

    I admire your adherence to your principles. There was a time when I would have been manning the ramparts with you. But at this point, I’m more interested in winning than principle and I think Clinton has a better chance of beating McCain.

    Clinton was not my first choice..if Al Gore was running, I’d drop her in a second. But, with Gore sitting it out and Edwards pushed into obscurity by the media’s focus on the two “historic” campaigns, I’ve got to go with the candidate I think will win the general. At least until the primaries are over, then I’ll support the nominee.

  494. 494
    John S. says:

    BTW,the fact that racists will vote for a white candidate over a black does not make the white candidate a racist.

    Indeed.

    It just means the white candidate is more appealing to racists (for obvious reasons).

    What I’m saying is that on the blogs where the hard core Obama supporters congregate, this site for example, Hillary Clinton is almost universally vilified.

    This blog originally was not a den of hardcore Obama supporters. Obama got a lot of flack around here. Where do you think the Magic Unity Pony label came from? It was first used as to mock and deride Obama, but has since been co-opted. This blog has become increasingly more anti-Hillary because of the campaign she is running.

    Hillary has proven to be just as polarizing amongst Democrats as she already was with non-Democrats. That’s what you are seeing around here.

  495. 495
    John S. says:

    I’ve got to go with the candidate I think will win the general

    I presume you’re going with your ‘gut’ on that?

    Because all evidence points to the contrary.

  496. 496
    orogeny says:

    dslak,

    For some reason, all the blogs that I have followed for the last several years have become Obama sites (at least in the comment threads). TPM, Balloon Juice, Eschaton, Americablog, Huffington, Crooks & Liars, Sullivan, The Carpetbagger. Those are the blogs I frequent and it’s dangerous to be a Hillary supporter in the comment sections of any of them. Only Bob Somerby at The Daily Howler has maintained a level of fairness, and he doesn’t allow comments.

  497. 497
    ThymeZone says:

    Well O, I can’t fault any Dem for caring about electability.

    When I look at the thing, I see Obama as the more electable. Rather than do a lukasiak-style thesis on the analysis and the numbers … let me just boil it down to this: I think Obama changes the game more than HRC does. I think he rearranges the demographic furniture and gets people to the polls who would not otherwise vote. And I think that puts him over the top.

    I say that entirely aside from my personal assessment of HRC as stated above.

    And … like everyone else around here, I have to put a diclaimer out there: I don’t know, I’m guessing, speculating, hoping …. Sometimes we have to trust our instincts.

  498. 498
    AkaDad says:

    It’s so much harder getting elected when you have a right-wing conspiracy out to get you.

  499. 499
    dslak says:

    Oregony, that seems to just be the luck of the draw. Apparently TalkLeft has gone pro-Hillary, but that’s the only one I know off the top of my head. I know that’s not the only site, but I can’t recall the names of any of the others.

    This site was pro-Hillary for a bit (or at least anti-Obama and anti-anti-Hillary), but now John has gone for Obama and thus has CDS.

  500. 500
    ThymeZone says:

    Okay, one last thought on this, orogeny: Obama is a wildcard, more of an unknown, and for that reason, backing him is a gamble, more than backing Clinton is. As polarizing as she is, we know all about it.

    In that sense, it is certainly rational for people to support her as a better “bet” than Obama. I understand that perfectly. I am just up for sticking my neck out a little further this year, I think we have an extraoridnary opportunity to really realign the political armature.

    Not because Obama has Pony Power, but because he demonstrates that he can operate outside of the machine, and succeed. That is a very rare thing. And dangerous, because the machine has awesome power. But anyway, either choice (BHO or HRC) is rational. Just because I don’t like her doesn’t make anyone’s support of her irrational.

  501. 501
    orogeny says:

    I presume you’re going with your ‘gut’ on that?

    Sometimes we have to trust our instincts.

    I’m sure that the fact that I live in Alabama has a significant effect on my perceptions as to who has the better chance in the general election. I don’t think any Dem has a chance of actually winning here. But I think Clinton could actually make a race out of it and cause McCain to have to expend resources here that he might need somewhere else. The same was true of both of Bill’s campaigns. He didn’t win here, but he got it close enough that the Repubs had to waste valuable resources on what should have been a no-contest state.

  502. 502
    Rarely Posts says:

    I can only hope this ends the nonsense the Obamabots are spewing over Ferraro, but I have my doubts.

    Sesame Street could tackle this nonsense…remember the segment One of These Things Is Not Like the Other?

    Hagee: A religious figure that McCain had no spiritual involvement with who gave him political support.

    Wright: A religious figure that Obama had spiritual involvement with who gave him political support.

    Ferraro: A political figure that Clinton had political involvement with who gave her political support.

    Is this really not clear to anyone? I agree that in all three cases, the politician should have distanced themselves from the figure with all due haste (even though this only happened with the two Democrats). But the circumstances are not even remotely similar.

    McCain and Clinton dealt with their controversial figures purely on a political level. That is it. There was no other relationship whatsoever. Obama primarily had dealings with Wright on a spiritual level. He was his pastor, counselor and friend for 20 years and his political support was entirely secondary. If you look at what makes Wright controversial, it is his political views – not his spiritual views.

    There couldn’t be any clearer evidence to support that religion and politics do not – and should not – mix.

    Yep. Black men have it so easy.

  503. 503
    Ted says:

    Hillary is a ball-busting, nut-cracking Nurse Ratched / Rosa Klebb.

    That is all.

  504. 504
    LiberalTarian says:

    hillbots + obamites = incredibly fucking boring

  505. 505
    Martin says:

    You spout wingnut memes. You utilize wingnut tactics. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, chances are it’s a duck.

    So you choose option #4 then – to run away like a little girl. Fair enough.

    Rather than answer the question you spent your time looking for a Patton quote and attacked me instead because I had the nerve to back you into a corner where you were forced to acknowledge that you were taking a prejudiced view of this (an innocent one, I would argue).

  506. 506
    Martin says:

    My problem with the people here at BJ is they seem to believe it’s okay to claim Hillary is responsible for and shares the attitude of Ferraro while at the same time claiming Obama is not repsonsible for nor shares the attitude of Wright. Guess what, neither Clinton nor Obama are responsible for or share these attitudes. But here at BJ, Clinton doesn’t get the same benefit of the doubt as Obama.

    I give Clinton the benefit of the doubt, but not as you would like, most likely.

    Ferraro was a member of Clinton’s campaign – a prominent member being a politician herself. Hillary established the standard of conduct when a staffer went off the reservation with the ‘Monster’ thing. It started and ended in hours which included Clinton’s call for her to be fired.

    Ferraro went off the reservation for 4 days with no action from Clinton. Now, if Clinton had acted by the standard she set with Power, I’d argue that Ferraro was a lone wolf there. But Ferraro spent 4 days in the campaign saying these things and getting expanded media access. I think it’s reasonable to conclude in this case that while Clinton may not agree with the comments, she was aware of them and permitted them. The timing to the MS election and the setup into the Wright video suggests it was coordinated. The election got used to keep that seed of doubt about Ferraro’s comments and Wright keeps the seed of doubt about the ‘he’s calling me a racists because I’m white’ line alive. It should be noted that nobody in the campaign called her a racist – she painted herself with at brush. Ferraro took one for the team.

    Don’t get me wrong. Clinton probably had nothing at all to do with the Wright video. That’s been out there for some time and the media surely found it on their own. But knowing that, Ferraro’s white racism is especially effective as a springboard to video. Anyone still talking about Ferraro’s comments? Nope buried in the fury they were designed to stir up.

    I’ll point out that some of this was predicted by Halperin, so if it all sounds too fantastic, think again. This was right out of the playbook. Nothing too clever at all.

    But I’ll also say there’s a lot of sloppiness with Clinton/Clinton campaign and Obama/Obama campaign on both sides.

    And I object slightly to saying that Wrights role in the Obama camp was similar to that of Ferraros in the Clinton camp. He was on an advisory board with something like 100+ others. It’s correct to say he was on the campaign, but there’s a large different in degree.

  507. 507
    dslak says:

    Am I to understand that “I hope this ends x” now means “I predict this won’t end x”? I guess if you can take “Obama wouldn’t be where he is if he were white” to mean “black men got the vote before women did,” then you can interpret anything to mean whatever you want.

  508. 508
    jcricket says:

    We post about about things, particularly politics, because we care about them and actually take the time to think about politicians and issues. We represent a very tiny segment of the electorate. Most voters are influenced by the soundbites provided on the nooz, campaign commercials and the crap delivered up by 527’s. They have a dilly here, all they need to do is play the clips of Wright enough times and their work is done.

    I don’t think this dooms Obama as badly as you seem to think, but it’s gonna hurt Obama a lot more than the supporters want to admit. The same way the Swift Boat thing wasn’t a death knell, but really hurt Kerry, despite being more than transparently false. The right wing has honed their attack machine to a sharp, sharp point, and it’s not going to go away for quite a while.

    I’d also go farther than you, in stating that political blog readers are a “fraction of the pie” and commentors are a further fraction of a fraction. I have a pretty politically engaged group of friends, almost all Democrats, but their opinions (whom they support, why, what they react to) is almost entirely different than what is regularly claimed as “the only reasons” or “facts” here.

    That doesn’t invalidate anyone’s opinion here, or argue that political blogs should go away. Disproportionate influence can be a good or bad thing (Kos v. the PNAC folks, for example). It just means I take it with more than a grain of salt (more than a salt shaker full, really) whenever anyone here or on another blog proffers up their opinion about how the public feels or will react.

    One example of the real world being quite different than the blogosphere is when I’m regularly pleased, but surprised, to read that 90% of Obama supporters out there would support Hillary as the nominee. You’d think it’s nearly the opposite judging by the reaction to Hillary in the blogosphere. And vice versa, I’m surprised to see so many (20-25%) of Hillary supporters claiming they’d vote for McCain over Obama (something I would never do). You’d think based on everyone’s opinions of who is attracted to each candidate, Hillary’s sky-high negatives/hatred among Republicans it wouldn’t be that way.

    Just one small example to remember when you’re claiming something in the news is going to hit the public this way or that.

  509. 509
    jcricket says:

    And I object slightly to saying that Wrights role in the Obama camp was similar to that of Ferraros in the Clinton camp. He was on an advisory board with something like 100+ others. It’s correct to say he was on the campaign, but there’s a large different in degree.

    The problem for Obama is that Wright is also his pastor, and that’s supposed to mean (if you’re a politician in America) some sort of special “spiritual advisor” relationship, higher than any other campaign operative.

    Again, I think this whole thing is BS, I think the Kerry Swift Boat thing was completely BS too. But it’s going to be used effectively against Obama. I hope it doesn’t bring him down, and it’s not going to change my vote or opinion of him one bit (which is I will vote for him and I like him).

    I honestly don’t know what a Dem’s supposed to do. They can’t inoculate themselves against criticism unless they hang out with no one, or hire robots (of course then they’d be accused of being anti-people). So wingers are always going to find something in a Democractic candidate’s past, family, relationships, campaign statements, votes, etc. to twist and distort into ridiculousness. If we ignore it, we lose. If we respond directly, it doesn’t seem to work either.

    Someone needs to figure out some better tactical and strategic responses to this.

  510. 510
    Rarely Posts says:

    Sure, Martin, it took Clinton a matter of days. And how many months and years has Wright been spouting this God Damn America stuff?

    Please.

  511. 511
    Rarely Posts says:

    Am I to understand that “I hope this ends x” now means “I predict this won’t end x

    Nope. The prediction was the “but I have my doubts” bit.

  512. 512
    KSmiami says:

    Deep breaths all around. Episodes like this really make me secure in that life is easier as an atheist. Really all religion is loony and should be locked away or a private personal choice. I daresay that Barack is probably at heart an atheist / agnostic, but joined a church out of civic duty and for the reason that no atheists get elected. Although that would be a nice change.

  513. 513
    dslak says:

    The prediction was the “but I have my doubts” bit.

    Okay, I’ll concede that you had an honest-to-goodness prediction, and even that it was borne out, but since you were simply predicting something banal as that hacks will be hacks, it’s odd to see you congratulating yourself over it.

    It’s akin to something like this:”I predicted that the sun would rise today, and so it has. Now, aren’t I clever?”

    Me, I predict that you will continue to be a hack, and I will congratulate myself on how insightful I am every time that my prediction turns out to be correct.

  514. 514
    dslak says:

    I daresay that Barack is probably at heart an atheist / agnostic, but joined a church out of civic duty and for the reason that no atheists get elected.

    You are seriously projecting your own prejudices onto Obama here.

  515. 515
    Rarely Posts says:

    Okay, I’ll concede that you had an honest-to-goodness prediction, and even that it was borne out, but since you were simply predicting something banal as that hacks will be hacks, it’s odd to see you congratulating yourself over it.

    I wasn’t congratulating myself. I’m actually pretty disappointed that Obama’s supporters are so divisive.

  516. 516
    John Cole says:

    I wasn’t congratulating myself. I’m actually pretty disappointed that Obama’s supporters are so divisive.

    You had to come back and throw one last turd in the punch bowl, didn’t you? Have you read anything at Hillaryis44? Talkleft? Anything by eriposte? Any of the clinton campaign surrogates?

    Anything at all?

  517. 517
    Rarely Posts says:

    No, I haven’t. I once thought this site was pretty non-partisan and I try to stay away from the koolaid drinkers. I’m sorry if my explaining my point to dslak is a turd in the punch bowl.

  518. 518
    John Cole says:

    rarely-

    Most Obama supporters are like me. They will vote for Obama, if that falls through, they will vote for Hillary. However, he also has many supporters from outside the party, who if he loses, will vote for McCain.

    That is the whole “expanding the party” thing. I am sorry you want to nutpick and find “divisive” people, but blanket statements such as “Obama’s supporters are so divisive” are kinda pointless and stupid.

    Although going through your comment history, it is clear you are just totally in the bag for Hillary, come hell or high water.

  519. 519
    Rarely Posts says:

    I’ve always planned to vote for Obama if he wins the nomination, and I still do. Maybe I’m being overly sensitive, but I find the sometimes unwarranted attacks on Hillary more painful from fellow liberals, Democrats, and rational people than I do from the right wingers. I’ve read your blog for a couple of years and never felt the need to comment because I often agree with the views posted by you and your fellow bloggers. I think what set me off were all the “periodically” comments and things I interpreted as laughing at women in general. And it’s kind of gone down hill from there.

    I guess I just don’t expect us to attack each other and it’s hard for me to not stick up for my preferred candidate.

  520. 520
    Asti says:

    The same way the Swift Boat thing wasn’t a death knell, but really hurt Kerry

    Are you fucking kidding me? The Swift Boat thing WAS the death knell, just as the scream took out Howard Dean.

  521. 521
    LiberalTarian says:

    I don’t much care for Obama, but I think as a presidential candidate he would bring out more straight-ticket voters. I worry about how his administration would work out, but not all that much. I savor the idea that if lots of Democrats ride his coattails into office we could see some real adjustment to the bullshit structures Republicans have been peddling as government for the last 30 years. As much as I like Clinton, and I do, I don’t see her bringing a tsunami with her. I’m kinda sad about it, cuz like I said, I like her, but I hope Obama gets the nomination.

    And that is the last I will write here on the candidacy subject, because fighting about it bores me to tears.

  522. 522
    Asti says:

    I don’t much care for Obama, but I think as a presidential candidate he would bring out more straight-ticket voters. I worry about how his administration would work out, but not all that much. I savor the idea that if lots of Democrats ride his coattails into office we could see some real adjustment to the bullshit structures Republicans have been peddling as government for the last 30 years. As much as I like Clinton, and I do, I don’t see her bringing a tsunami with her. I’m kinda sad about it, cuz like I said, I like her, but I hope Obama gets the nomination.blockquote>

    So, let me get this straight, you are going to vote for Hillary, but you hope Obama gets the nomination? Is that what you said?

  523. 523
    Asti says:

    Sorry, screwed up my blockquote.

  524. 524

    […] There’s what Rev. Wright actually said and what this is about. John Cole has done a favor and rounded it up. I particularly liked Dan Riehl’s inability to speak in code. Also, if that’s the case and Obama is a disciple of Wrights, exactly what type of change does Obama have in mind when it comes to race relations in America? The church also celebrates Kwanzaa. I wonder, is this something Obama intends to continue if he’s elected president? His holiday cards are pretty generic … for a committed Christian. […]

  525. 525
    dslak says:

    I guess I just don’t expect us to attack each other and it’s hard for me to not stick up for my preferred candidate.

    Get off your fucking cross. Considering however that you accused me just the other day of “attacking Hillary” for mocking your hackery, it seems you’re pretty eager to be up there.

  526. 526
    jcricket says:

    Are you fucking kidding me? The Swift Boat thing WAS the death knell, just as the scream took out Howard Dean.

    I’m not sure. I think it may have cost him the few percent he needed to win, but he could have made that up had he run a better campaign. So perhaps in that way, it was the death knell. It certainly killed his momentum and set the tenor (negatively) for the campaign (Kerry always responding to attacks, never on the offensive).

    I think that’s what some of the worry is about with this Wright thing. Really, all of us Dems are just worried something’s gonna come up and Spitzer (trying to coin a new term) the leading candidate.

  527. 527
    dslak says:

    You can’t use ‘Spitzer’ as a verb yet, because he hasn’t done anything exceptional with which to associate his name. ‘Vitter’ should get used, first.

  528. 528
    jcricket says:

    You can’t use ‘Spitzer’ as a verb yet, because he hasn’t done anything exceptional with which to associate his name. ‘Vitter’ should get used, first.

    Vitter? I hardley know her!

    Spitzer? Damn near killed her!

    C’mon, the jokes goddamn Wright ™ themselves folks.

  529. 529
    Asti says:

    Vitter? I hardley know her!

    Spitzer? Damn near killed her!

    C’mon, the jokes goddamn Wright™ themselves folks.

    Don’t quite your day job!

  530. 530
    Asti says:

    damn fast fingers, quite = quit of course!

  531. 531
    Langx says:

    It’s not just Wankers. It’s the Hillary supporters to.

    Now that I think about it. Maybe your right.

    What do you call a wanker form the left.

  532. 532
    Greg says:

    So….This preacher was his spiritual mentor, inspiration for the entire concept of his political message (Audacity of Hope), and his preacher for 20 years…married him and his wife, baptized his children. The personal relationship is quite strong since Obama is mentioned often by Wright in his sermon.

    But we are not to assume that Obama, who hand chose this as his ‘Christian’ mentor does not share these beliefs? A few weeks back his church was the defense for his being a Christian. Now this church that exudes racist and offensive hate speech is not an influence at all. This guy is no where close to a legitimate candidate for President. His judgment is terrible. Putting his children in front of the rhetoric coming from that church? Pathetic.

Trackbacks & Pingbacks

  1. […] There’s what Rev. Wright actually said and what this is about. John Cole has done a favor and rounded it up. I particularly liked Dan Riehl’s inability to speak in code. Also, if that’s the case and Obama is a disciple of Wrights, exactly what type of change does Obama have in mind when it comes to race relations in America? The church also celebrates Kwanzaa. I wonder, is this something Obama intends to continue if he’s elected president? His holiday cards are pretty generic … for a committed Christian. […]

  2. […] I’ll be back shortly. In the meantime, you should read these guys. John Cole is frequently brilliant. […]

  3. […] But not for the conservatives. Oh, they’re still mouth-foamy and stuff. John Cole has a good roundup of the lunacy, including this beauty from Dan Riehl: Also, if that’s the case and Obama is a disciple of Wrights, exactly what type of change does Obama have in mind when it comes to race relations in America? The church also celebrates Kwanzaa. I wonder, is this something Obama intends to continue if he’s elected president? His holiday cards are pretty generic … for a committed Christian. […]

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