Dumb voters get dumber:
Piece by piece, as the economy has faltered and as the subprime mortgage crisis has taken hold, Ivan Toledo’s grasp on his job, his house — his entire middle-class life — has come undone.
Eight months ago, he was no longer able to afford mortgage payments that rose by hundreds a month. Four months ago, he was laid off from a job at an auto body shop. Somewhere in between, five credit cards were maxed out, the car and power bills went unpaid, and the cable TV was cut off. He and his wife worry about their 18-month-old son’s runny nose, but without health insurance there will be no visit to the pediatrician.
***Toledo once thought of himself as a Democrat, but it is the Republicans whose talk of turning around the economy speaks to him now. He plans to vote in Tuesday’s Republican primary here and is deciding between former New York mayor Rudolph W. Giuliani, who he sees as a tax-cutter who turned around that city, and former Massachusetts governor Mitt Romney, whose business credentials he admires.
Anyone who turns to Rudy Giuliani to turn the economy around deserves eight more years of compassionate conservatism, but as Tim and I discussed via aol IM, this really is the outcome of the Democrats not competing in Florida. The only political news this guy clearly gets is from the brief campaign spots or literature, and as there is no Democratic campaigning (tell me if this guy does not sound like an Edwards supporter?), all he sees is the GOP campaigning, and they win by default.
Whether this can be reversed in the general election remains to be seen. And no one please tell Mr. Toledo the Republican stance on the bankruptcy bill that will make it almost impossible for him to declare bankruptcy.
ThymeZone
Good lord. Welp, the whole American Experiment is grounded in the idea that citizens will vote in favor of their interests.
Some obviously will not. Luckily for Mr. Toledo, the Democrats will soon be in charge and we will save him from himself.
It’s what we do.
Ninerdave
Wonder how those Bush Tax Cuts are workin’ out for him.
TheFountainHead
I don’t see why our “no competition” stance has to hurt us in the general. I think if this primary campaign has taught us anything its that a lot of people’s minds have been changing or unable to come down hard on one side or the other. On top of that, the Democratic Nominee is going to have more money to spend in Florida than an previous Democratic nominee ever. If the nominee ends up being good ‘ol McCain, he’s going to have serious money issues. If the nominee is Romney, well, he’s going to have serious issues with the Florida Republicans showing up to vote for him. Whoever the Democratic nominee will be, they will be well situated to correct whatever lack of information there is in Florida on Democratic issues–despite what Hillary would have you think.
Dennis - SGMM
Mr. Toledo suffers from the delusion, trumpeted by themselves and aided and abetted by the media, the the Republicans are better on the economy. They are better: they better themselves at the expense of the rest of us every chance they get.
Librarian
What else is new? The GOP thrives on ignorance; the more ignorant and uninformed voters are, the better it is for the GOP. The GOP seems to be the default party for uninformed voters, who automatically vote for it because it is the party of America, flag, apple pie, tax-cutting, fighting terra and all the rest of it. They would rather die than vote Democratic. Or, they vote Democratic only when the GOP royally fucks up, and mostly not even then.
Sensitive Pony Tailed Girly Man
That Ivan Toledo is dumber than a bag of hammers. Hold on Ivan while I play you the World’s Smallest Violin!
gypsy howell
It probably doesn’t help that the only TV stations down there are Fox news and religious broadcasting — both guaranteed to make you stupider, and more republican.
Xenos
Teledo is not even considering his self interest, except at an emotional level. This is true of most voters – it is an effect of personality, not rationality, e.g. union workers voting GOP because ‘Liberals want their guns’.
gypsy howell
Me, I feel sorry for the guy. He probably doesn’t have the educational background or access to enough “reality-based” information that would have enabled him to withstand the onslaught on the last 4 decades of republican brainwashing. Richer, smarter, more highly educated guys than him fell for the bullshit. Why should we expect him not to?
F. Frederson
The primary system is broken, and I think everyone outside of NH and IA would admit that. But nobody has found a way to step back from the insanity. Any candidate that declares that NH and IA should not go first immediately gets undercut by other candidates. If the DNC had real power it could resolve the situation, but I think Will Rogers made a quip that is relevant here.
Jake
Who the fuck does this nutsack think has been running the country for the past seven years, dwarves?
GtFo.
Punchy
Florida is a f’ed up state. Bottom 1/3 is almost all Dems, northern 1/3rd all Repubs, and the Orlando/Treasure Coast area is a crapshoot.
IOW, it’s impossible to know how FL will fare. Lots depend on if the Cubans want to vote anti-Castro (Republican) or reasonable immigration/visitation policy (Dems)…
Lee
Living in Texas I 100% concur with this assesment. This state is so Republican that it will probably never switch back (switched from Blue to Red in either 92 or 94).
jcricket
This is the problem, though. We don’t sell ourselves effectively as the party that’s better on the economy. Being “better” shouldn’t mean tax cuts for the rich, unnecessary wars and general lack of fiscal oversight.
I’m not surprised the “dumb” American public believes the Republicans, because they’re the only ones selling their party on the economy. Yes, they’re selling lies, but that hardly matters.
If Democrats ever convince people that Democrats are better for the economy Republicans would never win a national election again unless everyone became a evangelical nut-job.
jcricket
It will if the Latinos “take over” and Republicans continue their immigrant bashing. So support your local Minutemen chapter :-)
rawshark
The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn’t exist.
Willard Mitt Romney
There were other things there that set me off. He’s in trouble and he apparently doesn’t cancel his Cable, it’s ‘cut off’? Then he loses a job, which should have waken him up, moves and gets another, which he then quits before he has another lined up? He lost me before we even got to the 1% Mortgage. Maxed out five credit cards? Five? He’s worried about getting his Kid Medical Care, yet he somehow found money for College for himself? I’d save my sympathy for someone more worthy than that Boob.
rawshark
It hardly matters because their lies sound like yummy truth.
4tehlulz
Welcome to the downside of voting rights, when even the terminally stupid can vote.
Scotty
Ivan’s whole story reaks of living beyond ones means and then expecting others to bail them out when things go bad. That’s what I can’t stand about the mortgage crisis. Did these people expect to not have to pay loaners back eventually after knowingly agreeing to unstable rates?
Scotty
By the way, my ancient grandmother lives in Florida, and she and her gray friends absolutely had McCain because they think he supports giving free government related handouts to illegals. Anyone know of any other elderly Floridians getting by on social security that feel the same way?
Jake
And what, exactly, does it mean to think of oneself as a Democrat? Is that the same as being regisitered as a Democrat and possibly voting for Democratic candidates?
Willard Mitt Romney
Yes, of course. Cut Property Taxes, this will revive the Economy. Brilliant! There really should be some sort of intelligence test before they let you in the voting booth. Or procreate. Or let journalists quote you.
Ivan, you say your banking account is ‘almost’ empty. How much you got left? I have this great Bridge up here for sale. Set up a toll booth, then kick back with an Umbrella Drink my Man! Send your bank account info along to me care of this Site and I’ll get that Deed to you Muy Pronto!
tom.a
Lack of a Dem primary in FL won’t hurt them, the dems have lots of cash and can start campaigning there as soon as the primaries are over.
Walker
The key word is knowingly. I don’t believe this family is financially literate enough to make change. What do you do in this case?
Nim, ham hock of liberty
“And no one please tell Mr. Toledo the Republican stance on the bankruptcy bill that will make it almost impossible for him to declare bankruptcy.”
I am way waaaay on the left of the political spectrum, but when it comes to the Bankruptcy Bill…not so much. The popular conception of what it did doesn’t match reality. I’m a law-talkin-guy, and although I don’t do a whole lot of bankruptcy, I represent enough banks and creditors that I have to get involved with it from time to time. The reality is…the biggest obstacle to this fellow getting a discharge in bankruptcy, is the increased filing fees and attorneys fees, which on average have gone from roughly $600 to $1200 total.
The other changes to the law simply don’t really keep anyone from getting a discharge who wants one (unless they’ve already gotten a Chapter 7 within the last few years). At the most, IF he is earning a very large salary, he might have to get a Chapter 13 discharge, instead of an instantaneous 7. But even that’s very unlikely.
The bill installed more procedural hoops for debtors to jump through, but unless Ivan Toledo had a chapter 7 discharge in the recent past, he’ll still be able to get one.
Zifnab
Actually, after DeLay’s little redistricting game, it’s been a little crazy. A bunch of the districts he drew up to be “safe” weren’t as safe as he thought. And at the local level, Dems are cropping up all over the place. Dallas is flipping to blue. Houston is trending blue. Austin only gets bluer (and bigger), and it feeds three different districts.
Rick Perry won the Governorship down here with some 30% of the vote – the other 60%-odd split three ways. Texans have been chaffing under Republican incompetence for a while, and we’re slowly kicking off the DeLay/Craddick/Perry pestilence.
John Cornyn, perhaps one of the biggest Bush cheerleaders in the Senate, is sitting on a 44% approval rating down here. His opponent is likely going to be Rick Noriega, a hispanic progressive war vet. It’ll be an entertaining fight to watch.
Tsulagi
Riiiiiight.
This attitude it seems a lof of Dems have that the road to the WH will be strewn with flowers and candies just amazes me. They’re already picking out the WH curtains. Confident in the knowledge that it’s obvious to all that the Pubs are evil/suck/incompetent and everyone feels the same as they. They can’t lose. Known truth. Just ask President John Kerry.
Scotty
Are you saying they were tricked? Or just didn’t bother to read the fine print?
The Other Steve
This is why it is important and necessary for the Congress to make permanent the Bush tax cuts. Only a tax cut will be able to help someone like Mr. Toledo get out of the trouble he is in.
John S.
John-
You do realize we have a closed primary here in Florida, right?
So I don’t know what kind of bullshit that story is slinging, but if Mr. Toledo is a registered Democrat, he cannot vote for a Republican today. And if he is voting for Giuliani in the primary, then he is a registered Republican, in which case considering himself a Democrat doesn’t mean shit.
The Other Steve
Actually, I have a question.
What will the Democrats do to help the economy?
Xenos
Same here, both in terms of background and experience with the bankruptcy law. I have had clients endlessly harassed by a nutcase who, whenever he was about to be foreclosed on on by lenders or judgment creditors, or faced a default for failing to file answers or show up for awkward depositions , would file pro forma bankruptcy cases in order to gum things up. This sort of mischief came to an abrupt end when the bankruptcy reform law passed. This mischief was from a cynical and antisocial businessman, not a j6p like Toledo.
For the typical consumer in trouble, though, the credit counseling requirement made it impracticable to stop a foreclosure with a last-minute filing. Fair enough, as far as I can tell.
John S.
Repealing Bush’s gift to the rich folk is one thing they will do that a Republican won’t even consider.
Philip the Equal Opportunity Cynic
@ThymeZone:
FYP
Zifnab
And this is because of the Presidential Race? Yeah, uh… no. In case you haven’t noticed, John, none of the Presidential Candidates have actually done anything to assist Mr Toledo – Republican or Democrat. He’s hearing a bunch of rhetoric, but that’s all he gets. Does the rest of the Dem Party have any say in what Mr Toledo gets to hear? Or is this entirely within the domain of Democratic Presidential Candidates? Does, perhaps, the man’s local Democratic constituency have any responsibility here? Does he have a Republican Congressman whom he really likes? A Democratic Mayor he really hates? Is he completely insulated from politics beyond the national level?
I’m not saying that the lack of Dem Presidential Campaigning is smart or acceptable. Honestly, I don’t see why we have to have this ridiculous primary set up to begin with. This is hardly a given Dem candidate’s fault. The Republican Party don’t seem to have any trouble in this state.
But if this guy is flipping parties strictly because of a month of campaigning at the height of primary season, I suspect that the Dems as a whole have let him down over the long run. You’re either an independent who blows with the wind – in which case he should be an easy vote to recapture – or you are a die-hard yellow dog support who won’t budge. If this guy was a firm believer in the Dem party right up until last week, the Dems must have dropped the ball on him more than once.
Wayne
“this really is the outcome of the Democrats not competing in Florida.”
If the dems lose the November election by the margin of Florida electoral college votes because they did not win Florida, the Democratic Party can only look at itself for the failure. I’m in Miami and all you hear/see is Republican ads. As if Democrats don’t exist. They missed a great opportunity.
Philip the Equal Opportunity Cynic
To state the obvious, doesn’t anecdotal evidence of sample size = 1 suffer from all sorts of small sample size problems?
I don’t doubt that in all of Florida, there is one gentleman in dire financial straits who believes the GOP will help get him out of it. People hold all kinds of lunatic beliefs.
Is there one iota of evidence beyond this story that enough suffering people buy the GOP’s economic story (as opposed to not caring, voting on strictly Religious Right social issues or something) to make that kind of difference in Florida?
Pseudonymous Blogger
John, spot on post, except for your last line. Last time I checked, the bankruptcy bill passed 75-24 in the Senate. Are there 75 Republicans in the Senate? I can’t remember the breakdown. And don’t get me wrong, the Republicans are obviously much worse than the Dems in many, many ways. But “the Republican stance” on the bankruptcy bill? Seems to me that on most issues, there’s not a Democrat or Republican view, but only and “establishment” view. See FISA vote, 8/2007.
Nim, ham hock of liberty
“For the typical consumer in trouble, though, the credit counseling requirement made it impracticable to stop a foreclosure with a last-minute filing. Fair enough, as far as I can tell.”
Yep. If you literally wait until the last minute before heaving a bomb into the works, in order to stave off foreclosure with the automatic stay, you’ve got problems now. If you actually get your act together just a few days ahead of time, though…you can. I have trouble feeling any outrage about that, even if the counseling requirement is generally condescending and useless.
One of the interesting wrinkles here, also, is that with the mortgage crisis going on, a lot of filers are voluntarily choosing Chapter 13 bankruptcies on their own, since it’s the only option they have for keeping their houses (of course, they have to still be able to afford the mortgage after their other debts are discharged). There are probably more filers going into chapter 13 voluntarily for that reason, than there are filers being forced into 13 because they fail the means test to qualify for a chapter 7.
The debtor’s attorneys I’ve spoken with have all said that if a client wants a chapter 7, they’ll find a way to get in there. There are so many income deductions on the means testing, that it’s only keeping a small small fraction of filers out of chapter 7. And nobody is being kept out of chapter 13 in any event.
Bubblegum Tate
In that case, I move for a bad court thingy.
fester bestertester
“Toledo and his wife, Evelyn, moved to the Tampa area from Chicago four years ago in search of opportunity and a little of his beloved baseball each spring, when many major league teams spend weeks training in Florida.”
he moved to florida, when he was 34, so he could be closer to spring training? doesn’t seem planning is a strength of his. nor is maturity. he quit a job he had cause he didn’t like hard work? etc., etc., etc.
The Other Steve
The bizarre aspect of the bankruptcy bill was the unintended consequence.
It worked to prevent you from discharging credit card bills. Ok, credit cards are debt without collateral.
But guess what? Automobiles and houses have collateral.
The unintended consequence of the bankruptcy bill was that people are paying their credit card bills, but not their mortgage. Why? Because if you don’t pay the mortgage, they come and take the house and you are free of that debt.
So what’s the point of declaring bankruptcy, since it doesn’t protect the house and it doesn’t get rid of the credit card debt? Might as well just forfeit the house.
Could you address these points, please? If I’m wrong, I’d like to know.
The Other Steve
How would this help the economy?
Grumpy Code Monkey
39%, IIRC, but it’s still pathetic (and not sufficient to win state office IMO; we need a runoff system). To be fair, that had less to do with Perry being a Republican and more with him being an all-purpose tool. From mandating vaccinations against HPV to the Trans Texas Boondoggle, he’s managed to piss off just about every possible interest group in the state. I’m curious how many of Kinky’s and Strayhorn’s votes would have broken for Perry or Bell, but that’s all sewage down the grate.
As others have mentioned, things are getting interesting. Not only did the redistricting plan not quite pan out the way they were expecting, you also had the open revolt against Speaker Craddick in the last session.
SenderC
This guy Ivan seems a poor choice for a sympathetic portrait. The guy quit his job as a ironworker because it was too boring and physically demanding. Hey shitheel, most of us have boring jobs. We continue at them because our families depend on us. I’m liberal and believe in letting people follow their dreams and all that crap, but not when you have a kid and you’re financially insecure. If you got a kid and you’re a ditchdigger, guess what? It’s time to grab your shovel. If you can do something in your off-hours to make your dream job come true, then more power to you. But not at the expense of your family’s well-being.
The article is a list of wrong paths taken. Too bad his son doesn’t have a smarter father.
PK
Ivan Toledo is an idiot pure and simple. If he can’t realize that 8yrs of republican rule is the cause of his pain, no amount of democratic campaigning is going to change that! He thinks Rudy or Romney will save the economy! And I bet he thinks McCain will probably end the war. This thinking is what got us 8 yrs of Bush. I just hope that this time the non stupids outnumber the stupids!
D. Mason
This is why I roll my eyes and close my ears when Democrats start speaking.
Helverings Nag
Every time I hear a story like this I worry about the psycological implications of his “choice.” A one-time Democrat, out of ignorance, makes a choice between the only options he has heard about – all of which are Republican. Once the die is cast, there is an inate human tendancy to elevate “correctness” and satisfaction of the choice in one’s own mind. Most people discount or ignore contradictory information and defend their choice. I’m afraid we lost a Democrat based on circumstances – a Republican and a Democratic primary, with no Democratic candidates raising the issues – not ideology.
Charity
I feel like saying stuff like that sometimes. And then I remember I’m an educated, non-child-having, non-church-going, upper-upper-middle class woman, living in the bluest city in a blue state, and I feel like I better shut up before BOR sends his security goons to my house. Weird times we live in.
Charity
That’s what I thought in 2004 too. I thought it was obvious that Kerry was the way to go.
Drew
Why does this guy still have cable? I think Ivan has a spending problem.
Nim, ham hock of liberty
OK. First, I’m not sure what you mean by the law “preventing” someone from discharging credit card debt. That’s not part of BAPCPA – credit card remains just as dischargeable as it was before.
Second, if you can’t afford your mortgage any more, you can stop payments and the bank will foreclose. That does not mean, however, that you’re “free of that debt.” Unless you have a “non-recourse” mortgage, you still owe the lender whatever balance remains on the loan after they sell the property for you. That deficiency, however, could still be discharged in bankruptcy, but you don’t have to wait until after the foreclosure to have your loan debt discharged.
So, bankruptcy -can- discharge your credit card debt, and it may be able to protect your house. If you go through a chapter 7 liquidation bankruptcy, the lender will probably be able to get the house back, if you’re in default on the loan. If you go through a chapter 13, however, you can propose a repayment plan to get caught up on any arrearages, and keep a mortgage lender from foreclosing. However, in order to get this approved, you have to be able to afford your mortgage payments. If the interest rate has jumped and put payments out of reach, then this won’t help, obviously. But if you earn enough to keep paying mortgage, but can’t afford to do that AND pay your other debts, a chapter 13 might be able to discharge most or all of your unsecured debt, while keeping your house.
Clear as mud? =)
Peter VE
I think Mr. Toledo is going to learn the meaning of the term “debt peonage”.
4tehlulz
I think this sentence captures where Ivan’s priorities are. And I am supposed to feel sorry for this guy.
Also…
facepalm.jpg
(At best) Middle management is the last place to go in a recession. It’s what gets cut.
scott
Everytime I see somebody described as a former Dem who is now a Rethug, I figure if you scratch the surface you’ll get a classic GGG Dixiecrat who hates brown/black/yellow people and could be a case study from the “What’s the Matter with Kansas” guy’s book.
I’m sorry but he’s unreachable.
Wait, this just in, he’s guy with the “morans” sign.
John S.
I’m no economist, but I was under the impression that any steps towards emerging from running record deficits would be a good thing for the economy.
D-Chance.
Thankfully, someone else actually clicked the link and read the whole article instead of buying Mr Cole’s sob story. The couple moved halfway across the country on a whim, overbought into a house way too big for their needs, brought a kid into the picture, quit a job because he wanted something more “cushy”, and given that they’re $25K in debt after refying for $17K to pay off credit cards they probably weren’t too frugal when he WAS working. And now he’s going to school… excuse me?
And this “I’ve sought minimum-wage work. I’ve sought part-time work, but been turned down because either I’m overqualified or asking for too much money,” said Toledo, 38, who has applied for jobs at retail stores, an auto insurance company and a payday lender. “There are cutbacks all around. Everybody is cutting back.”
Fuck that. You have a kid, you don’t ask for too much money. You work minimum wage. And anyone who says they can’t find a job at a retail store is lying out their ass. I do store runs every week on my delivery route. Over 1/3rd of them have Help Wanted signs up in the windows. And their current employees are working 6 and 7 days, and pulling doubles, just to cover all shifts. If you have a kid and/or are in debt, you put in 40+ at the register, and then get out at 3am 7 days a week to toss a couple hundred newspapers for extra money. Fuck your afternoons in the stands at spring training baseball games. Your responsibilities (I know, that’s being “unfair”) lie elsewhere.
Now, you want to tell me about the guy who had an accident on the job, broke bones, tore up his back? Mom had a heart attack? Birth complications and congenital health issues for the kid? Major auto accident? I’m all ears and heart… they need help, let’s feel sorry for them and do everything we can to get them that help. But this jackass? He needs someone to walk around behind him and kick his ass a few times… real hard. He’s not the poster boy you want to put on display for your political point.
cmoreNC
Shallow idiots like this guy are, in the margin, why we have had to suffer eight years of Bush’s mendacious misdirection, irresponsibility, and ideological instead of fact-backed reasoning. It is truly astounding how in seven short years a budget surplus has been turned into such a mountainous deficit, and all quite on purpose. This guy is just a simpleton version of the same sort of fantastic financial thinking.
Cain
Has anybody figured out what kind of countertops he has? I’m sure he’s living an extravagant lifestyle?
Echoes of malkanism? :)
cain
LiberalTarian
Yeah, that’s what I get for reading threads out of order.
I don’t understand how that guy thinks Republicans are going to help him get a job or any of that stuff. I get so involved that I readily forget that lots of other people never pay attention to who is voting on what in Congress.
My parents always did, which is why I do I suppose.
Chuck Butcher
Laid off from an auto body shop? In a real bad economy custom work goes to hell, but insured work is the back bone of that work and it doesn’t go away. It’s pretty tough to get “laid-off” from a body shop. This is a piece of the world I move in, if my good friend loses one of his auto body guys he’s hurting until he can get another, economy up or down.
I used to be able to count on roofing the same way, but right now there’s an awful lot of snow on the ground and more falling as I type. That and the re-course people had was a re-fi…
Doug
Republican rule has caused a lot of pain, but I can’t add this guy to the ledger for all of the reasons other people have cited.
I’m a collections attorney. (Pretty much walking evil, I suppose.) He’s a debtor type that’s not unfamiliar. (He’s not representative either, by the way). The guy who is in school, heavily in debt, keeps reproducing, and doesn’t turn off the cable is the sort of guy I haul into court every Monday to question about income and assets and try to get a couple of bucks out of for the creditor. He’s generally pissed off about being in court – as if it’s my fault he hasn’t lifted a finger to make a payment; generally it’s someone else’s fault that his debt is getting paid. (“Hey, I moved without telling anyone and didn’t get my mail; how is that my fault?” or “Sure, I didn’t pay on time, but I offered them $5 per month, then they say they wouldn’t take it, they’d charge me interest and they sued me. The bastards.”)
I’m not surprised at all this guy is voting for Republicans — they typically provide scapegoats and excuses to be angry, often in one tidy package.
Doug
I made a typo above: “someone else’s fault that his debt isn’t getting paid.”
Jake
Which is one of the many reasons I used to be only 99% sorry that BushCo is so damn incompetent. Or at least beholden to a variety of foreign interests. I used to think that if they had wanted they could have made things systematically unpleasant for the melanin-exhibiting/non-Biblically approved types in the country.
But, thanks to Johan Goldberg I now know that only Libruls create enemies who must be persecuted at all costs!