No Balconies in Florida

If this exit polling is accurate, then Giuliani’s campaign is over.

This is undeniably a good thing for the country, and while they are probably too damned stupid to realize it, a good thing for the long-term health of the GOP. With this megalomaniac and authoritarian out of the race, I feel like the country just dodged a bullet.






316 replies
  1. 1
    Jay says:

    Giuliani For President? I thought he was running for governor of Florida.

    I think he quit a loooong time ago.

  2. 2
    Wilfred says:

    Somewhere in the bowels of Grand Central Station, a terrorist squegeeman cell is starting to stir.

  3. 3
    Ivan Toledo says:

    If Rudy Giuliani wins, he’s going to make change just like Governor Crist did. In the past, Giuliani said he was going to make changes and he did it. That’s what we need.

  4. 4
    Scotty says:

    Don’t forget, he shines during crisis scenarios.

  5. 5
    cmoreNC says:

    Hold off the wake for Rudy until 9pm. The family informs us they will be requesting donations instead of flowers.

  6. 6
    Jake says:

    With this megalomaniac and authoritarian out of the race, I feel like the country just dodged a bullet.

    Huh? Bush resigned?

  7. 7
    jrg says:

    I guess this means that Republican primary voters don’t take terrorism seriously. Either that, or they took their heads out of their asses and realized that “9/11” is not a magical incantation that can turn an otherwise unsuitable candidate into a ultra-fantastic-super-American hero.

  8. 8
    Helena Montana says:

    With this megalomaniac and authoritarian out of the race, I feel like the country just dodged a bullet.

    Huh? Cheney resigned?

  9. 9
    PeterJ says:

    Hold off the wake for Rudy until 9:11pm.

    Fixed.

  10. 10
    Demdude says:

    I can’r believe the man crush the folks on MSNBC have in this guy. If I hear that “America’s Mayor” bullshit one more time I’m going to puke….

  11. 11
    Jon H says:

    I think it was his campaign promise that he’d annex the Sudetenland.

  12. 12
    F says:

    As an African American who lived in NYC during Giuliani’s reign I can tell you the best thing by far to come out of the 2008 elections is the ruination of Giuliani’s reputation. The country finally got to learn of what New York City’s black community has been saying for years; he is a mean, vindictive, authoritarian asshole.

    You only heard about Giuliani’s meanness, we had to live it.

    F

    Preemptive response to bbbut he cleaned up NY.

    No, his first Police Commissioner William Bratton cleaned up NY with policies put in place by David Dinkins. When Bratton started to receive too much credit, Giuliani fired him.

    F

  13. 13
    J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford says:

    jrg Says:

    I guess this means that Republican primary voters don’t take terrorism seriously. Either that, or they took their heads out of their asses and realized that “9/11” is not a magical incantation that can turn an otherwise unsuitable candidate into a ultra-fantastic-super-American hero.

    January 29th, 2008 at 7:06 pm

    MSNBC exit polls had the “ecomony” at 47% and terrorism at 17% in regards to importance of Republican voters in Florida.

  14. 14
    Jake says:

    Preemptive response to bbbut he cleaned up NY.

    No, his first Police Commissioner William Bratton cleaned up NY with policies put in place by David Dinkins. When Bratton started to receive too much credit, Giuliani fired him.

    Alternative Pre-emptive Response:

    Yep, he got the remains of people killed on his favorite day to the dump PDQ.

    Ah well. There’s always room at the Newt Gingrich Home for Politically Irrelevant Hacks n’ Dickheads.

  15. 15
    jrg says:

    MSNBC exit polls had the “ecomony” at 47% and terrorism at 17% in regards to importance of Republican voters in Florida.

    Sheesh. No wonder. How could Giuliani consider himself to be a credible Republican candidate if he can’t scare the piss out of a few retirees?

  16. 16
    Caidence (fmr. Chris) says:

    I’ve been waiting for this thread for a couple days now.

    As a proud New Yorker, I say: Fuck Giuliani.

    Just above shit-warm at best, mostly just an attention-whore pain-in-the-ass.

    Nation gets a huge reduction in crime on an economic level, he says it’s all because of him. Planes fly into buildings, he’s apparently psychicly going back in time to fight the terrorist-plane-guys. Election details don’t suit him, he says he’ll stay in office for the next 3 months.

    You know before his campaign died he wanted to force all new citizens to speak, read, and write English? Like they don’t take a test on that already.

    Worthless.
    Fascist.

    Good-night, prick.

  17. 17
    tBone says:

    MSNBC exit polls had the “ecomony” at 47% and terrorism at 17% in regards to importance of Republican voters in Florida.

    Congratulations, stupid Floridian Republicans. When the smoking gun turns out to be a mushroom cloud, you’re going to be sorry Rudi wasn’t there. He’d treat those terrorist bastards like a colony of ferrets living in Abner Louima’s ass.

  18. 18
    Caidence (fmr. Chris) says:

    Congratulations, stupid Floridian Republicans. When the smoking gun turns out to be a mushroom cloud, you’re going to be sorry Rudi wasn’t there. He’d treat those terrorist bastards like a colony of ferrets living in Abner Louima’s ass.

    hahahahahahahaa

    I haven’t been around today, but if PotD is still free, I’d like to give it to this.

    I applaud you, sir, mental imagery and all.

  19. 19
    Pixie says:

    Farewell 9u11iani! The worst president we never had!

  20. 20
    Jorge says:

    So, a cross-dressing, pro-choice, ex-roomate of a gay couple New Yorker failed to win the Republican nomination? Color me shocked.

    As a progressive, he was my first choice to destroy the Reagan coalition. My second hope was the Mormon driving away the southern-baptists and true Biblical literalist evangelicals and now the exit polls are taking that away from me.

    Shoot – McCain might give the fakeservatives fits but I really can’t see the dittoheads taking their ball and going home if the options are Billary or Barack Hussein Carbomber.

  21. 21
    F says:

    Caidence (fmr. Chris)

    I totally agree with your comments, in particular:

    Nation gets a huge reduction in crime on an economic level, he says it’s all because of him.

    Thank you for pointing out the impact of the Economy in the 90s on crime. It has always perturbed me that Giuliani ran around claiming credit for reducing crime when something as simple as lowering the unemployment rate has been proven as the most effective way of reducing crime.

    Crime Rate prediction:

    All violent aspects of the Crime Rate (i.e. murder, drugs, robbery, burglary) will increase until the economy recovers.

    F

  22. 22
    Splitting Image says:

    So long Rudy.

    It’s something unpredictable, but in the end it’s right.

  23. 23
    wasabi gasp says:

    Someone dial 911!

  24. 24
    cleek says:

    so it’s Goodbye Rudy Tuesday ?

    (h/t Unfogged)

  25. 25
    Psycheout says:

    Updates every five minutes or so at B4B:

    Update 7: With 15% reporting (7:57pm EST):

    1. McCain 34%
    2. Romney 31%
    3. Giuliani 17%
    4. Huckabee 13%

    With 15% reporting:

    1. Hilldog 52%
    2. Osama 28%
    3. Breck Girl 16%

  26. 26
    Caidence (fmr. Chris) says:

    Goodbye Rudy Tuesday ?

    At the end of the general election, we’re going to have to have a poll on the best names.

    “9u11iani”, all the Hillary names, all the Obama names are invited.

    We’ll all dress up as our favorite character. I mean, candidate.

  27. 27
    Ralph Dosser says:

    A steel-jacketed, armor-piercing, nano-fragmenting, cyanide-laced Morgul bullet….

    …fired from a rusty blunderbuss, aimed by a syphilitic orangutan, with an epileptic hummingbird as his spotter. Sometimes the insanity of an enterprise proves its own undoing. I feel that way about the modern GOP in general, but it’s taking forever for it to happen.

  28. 28
    Caidence (fmr. Chris) says:

    Updates every five minutes or so at Barebacking-4-Brownback

    This dude is amazing. He’s trolling even when he’s on the level. Somebody give him a gold star.

    And an education, if you can.

  29. 29
    socraticsilence says:

    On the Dem side I think the fact that Mike “I’m still running?” Gravel is drawing 4% kind of tells you what you need to know about the seriousness with which the Dem voters took this farce.

  30. 30
    demimondian says:

    an education, if you can

    Psicko? Oh, I don’t think so.

    He’s too…enlightening. I think.

  31. 31
    Caidence (fmr. Chris) says:

    A steel-jacketed, armor-piercing, nano-fragmenting, cyanide-laced Morgul bullet….

    …fired from a rusty blunderbuss, aimed by a syphilitic orangutan, with an epileptic hummingbird as his spotter. Sometimes the insanity of an enterprise proves its own undoing. I feel that way about the modern GOP in general, but it’s taking forever for it to happen.

    It’s been a while I’ve been justified in using this, but…

    lolwut?

  32. 32
    PeterJ says:

    CNN is projecting Hillary Clinton as the whiner.

  33. 33
    Ralph Dosser says:

    Referring to the original post’s “we dodged a bullet.” My full meaning was: “yes, a very deadly bullet, but one that had no chance of hitting the target.”

  34. 34
    demimondian says:

    Hey, Caidence! What are you trying to do, get me fired? An ad for Ron Paul for President? Here at Gollum, that’s grounds for dismissal with extreme prejudice!

  35. 35
    Psycheout says:

    Another B4B update for y’all:

    Update 10: With 25% reporting (8:09pm EST) (all polls have closed):

    1. McCain 34%
    2. Romney 31%
    3. Giuliani 16%
    4. Huckabee 14%

    With 28% reporting:

    1. Hilldog 49% [x]
    2. Osama 29%
    3. Breck Girl 15%

  36. 36
    myiq2xu says:

    Rudy could well have been one of the few candidates that would make us long for the “good old days” when G-Dub was President.

  37. 37
    Psycheout says:

    Thanks Cadence. The B4 triumvirate (B4B, B4C & B4H) is a font of truthful news and enlightening information.

  38. 38
    Psycheout says:

    demidemon, I’m not sure how to take your comment. So I’ll ignore it.

    D’oh!

  39. 39
    beastofbourbon says:

    Never forget rooty’s brilliant plan to bail out Europe after WW2…and we will always praise him for killing John Wilkes Booth in that barn……..

  40. 40
    myiq2xu says:

    OMG!

    Another Hillary win that really doesn’t matter, just like Michigan and Nevada and New Hampshire. Only Iowa and South Carolina matter.

    Cuz nothing can stop the Obama Nation!

    OBAMA NATION
    OBAMA NATION
    OBAMA NATION
    OBAMA NATION
    OBAMA NATION
    OBAMA NATION

    When will we cancel rest of the primaries and declare the Magic Unity Pony the winner?

  41. 41
    liberal says:

    Caidence (fmr. Chris) wrote,

    Nation gets a huge reduction in crime on an economic level, he says it’s all because of him.

    I’d phrase it slightly differently (in particular, I don’t know what “economic” is doing in there), but this is an important point: any claim to a causal relationship between actors and policies and a reduction in crime should look at the numbers after the reduction that can be ascribed to the national trend has been factored out.

  42. 42
    Rick Taylor says:

    With this megalomaniac and authoritarian out of the race, I feel like the country just dodged a bullet.

    Yup. Guiliani was the one person in the race who I imagined might make me miss George Bush when his term was over.

  43. 43
    Keith says:

    I tend to think that “creepy” one of the most overused words of the last couple of years, but watching any Giuliani interview and especially his X-mas commercial gives me the willies…he just exudes this creepy vibe that makes my skin crawl. Like I’m expecting fangs to start showing and him going the Hannibal Lector fava bean bit.

  44. 44
    myiq2xu says:

    Like I’m expecting fangs to start showing and him going the Hannibal Lector fava bean bit.

    Don’t be ridiculous.

    That would be Dick Cheney.

  45. 45
    Psycheout says:

    I’ll be glad to see pro-abort, pro-gay, gun grabbing, liberal fascist Giuliani drop out of the race.

    It looks like a good night. If Mittens goes down in flames, we are saved as a nation. If were going to let a Mormon get the GOP nomination, what’s next? A scientologist like John Travolta or Tom Cruise for the dems? A Quaker for the reps?

    No religious deviants, please.

  46. 46
    socraticsilence says:

    Another Hillary win that really doesn’t matter, just like Michigan and Nevada and New Hampshire. Only Iowa and South Carolina matter.

    Huh, this might be hard for you to grasp, but NH mattered no one dosputes that, NV was won by Clinton rather pyrrhicly (what with HRC not winning the plurality of delegates), MI&Fl have less weight than RI or WY, what with them having o delegates at stake, (Let’s see Hillary’s the only one on the ballot in one, so that awesome win over uncommited is pretty sweet!, In the other words, suprise of suprises the frontrunner wins maintaining the early lead in the one state no one campaigned in– not that Hillary was leaving anything to chance that little “I’ll seat the delegates because rules are just meaningless abstractions bit was proabably worth 5-10% min.”) You want Florida and Michigan to count: http://www.prospect.org/cs/art.....o#comments

  47. 47
    Caidence (fmr. Chris) says:

    Hey, Caidence! What are you trying to do, get me fired? An ad for Ron Paul for President? Here at Gollum, that’s grounds for dismissal with extreme prejudice!

    Am I gonna have to lolwut you too? I posted a ridiculous image site. I do not see how you got from ridiculous image site to ridiculous candidate.

    (in particular, I don’t know what “economic” is doing in there)

    Read some of Levitt’s work (Freakonomics). The crime wave was accompanied by many things in the economics realm. This includes, if you believe him, the effects of Roe vs. Wade.

    Wasabi’s trying to snub me for saying this in another thread, but I’ll try it here: the economy is much more than just money, it includes the incentives behind the money. At least, that’s what I remember from somewhere.

  48. 48
    socraticsilence says:

    A Quaker for the reps?

    While I realize republicans like to pretend they never were, there have been 2 quaker Republican presidents already.

  49. 49
    ThymeZone says:

    Okay, what in the living fucking hell is going on with the dem voting in FL? They are reporting the votes on tv as if they count for somethig, and here is a fucking Clinton rally.

    I thought MI and FL were off the table for these candidates?

  50. 50
    Tom in Texas says:

    Winning Michigan and Florida has about as much effect on the US Democratic primary as winning a vote in Mexico. Congratulations Hillary for winning by campaigning in a state you agreed not to — one that is meaningless if you play by the rules you agreed to.

  51. 51
    demimondian says:

    Yeah, it’s awful that Obama arranged for his allied unions to send out mailers supporting him in the run up to the election, isn’t it, Tom?

  52. 52
    p-rex says:

    maybe i’m crazy to be following the florida sos election page instead of the cnn or national review results, but over there they show romney winning by about 6,000 votes…

  53. 53
    p-rex says:

    ok, now romney’s lead falling fast

  54. 54
    socraticsilence says:

    While, I realize it won’t matter to low information voters, I have to think that Clinton doing this is Florida just echoes the concerns others have had with the Clinton Machine, I mean nothing says win at all cost like changing the rules as you go! On a sidenote, I realize the agreement between canidates was non-binding, but I would find it absolutely hilarious if its actions like this that eventually lead Edwards to pledge his delegates to Obama, and for some Superdelegates to reconsider.

  55. 55
    Caidence (fmr. Chris) says:

    Okay, what in the living fucking hell is going on with the dem voting in FL? They are reporting the votes on tv as if they count for somethig, and here is a fucking Clinton rally.

    You’re behind in your reading. By reading, I mean Sully’s HRC Hate-a-thon.

    Hillary applied to run in FL and MI even though she agreed not to do that as per Dem agreement. She ran uncontested because she’s being an ass. And now there’s a rally because she won like an ass. And later, she’s going to try to get those results (nullified per said agreement) reinstated because she’s losing her mojo. Like an ass.

  56. 56
    softwareNerd says:

    For all his very, very many faults, Giuliani was kowtowing least to the religious side of the GOP, even less than McCain. He’d have given them 1 or 2 SCOTUS judges (as would all the others) and that’s it.

    The disaster of his candidacy speaks volumes about how the GOP has changed over the decades. Reagan was the start of the decline, exciting the free-economy wing into doing a deal with the religious devil. The latter took over and the former finds themselves with no party anywhere in sight.

  57. 57
    p-rex says:

    err, how come hillary vs. obama is starting to seem like the high school student council elections?

  58. 58
    The Other Steve says:

    By friday, I think we’ll see Rudy drop out, possibly Huckabee. That will make next Tuesday more interesting.

  59. 59
    The Other Steve says:

    err, how come hillary vs. obama is starting to seem like the high school student council elections?

    VOTE FLICK!

  60. 60
    socraticsilence says:

    “Yeah, it’s awful that Obama arranged for his allied unions to send out mailers supporting him in the run up to the election, isn’t it, Tom?”

    Well we kniow Hillary didn’t do that, I mean those IUPAT signs at her were spontaneously generated. Just admit it, basically this is as well as Hillary can ever do in any state, she had perfect Demographics (seriuosly Florida hit her sweet spots far better than SC hit Obama’s), and by not campaigning she probably helped herself as the more voters see Hilary the more the dislike her, whereas the more the voters see Obama the more the believe in substantive change.

  61. 61
    myiq2xu says:

    Huh, this might be hard for you to grasp, but NH mattered no one dosputes that, NV was won by Clinton rather pyrrhicly

    Oh contraire, my friend. Hillary won NH by:

    1) Crying (so it doesn’t count)

    2) The “Bradley” effect (so it doesn’t count)

    3) Diebold machines (so it doesn’t count)

    Hillary won the most votes in NV – what happened to “one man – one vote?”

    If the situation was reversed, we would be hearing the screams from Obama Nation about how those dirty low-down Clintons rigged the system in Nevada.

    Just cuz you have a Magic Unity Pony doesn’t mean you get to move the goalposts.

  62. 62
    The Other Steve says:

    Another Hillary win that really doesn’t matter, just like Michigan and Nevada and New Hampshire. Only Iowa and South Carolina matter.

    Actually it doesn’t matter. Just like Michigan.

  63. 63
    demimondian says:

    Yup. It’s as well as Hillary can do in any state — without campaigning, with a huge media unity pony wank-fest for her principal opponent, she got more than the rest of the field put together.

    Yup.

    Terrible performance.

    Tell, me — are you a tool or a troll? If you’re a tool, I’ll be nice to you. Not so much if you’re a troll.

  64. 64
    The Other Steve says:

    Mittens/Rudy… I can see it now!

  65. 65
    socraticsilence says:

    Arrgh! got to quit typing while looking at results and watching TV!

  66. 66
    p-rex says:

    i think it was the “iron my shirt” gag that got hrc the undecideds in nh…where’s the conspiracy theory that says they were plants by the clinton campaign?

  67. 67
    sparky says:

    um, the reason everyone is voting in florida is to lower their property taxes (amendment 1) by about $250/year. the rest is just an afterthought (except for the Gravel and Paul voters, natch).

  68. 68
    The Other Steve says:

    Hillary won the most votes in NV – what happened to “one man – one vote?”

    I’m convinced myiqis40 is a troll.

    Hillary won the Vegas strip caucuses. You know the ones she was whining and trying to get shut down the week before.

  69. 69
    Tom in Texas says:

    Right. Mailing flyers to delegates is totally like holding a victory speech and deliberately playing the media so it’s not so brazenly ugly to the average Joe when she backs on her word. I can’t imagine where this “people can’t trust them” meme arose.

    If the situation was reversed, we would be hearing the screams from Obama Nation about how those dirty low-down Clintons rigged the system in Nevada.

    And if Obama won Florida, we’d get a quick quote from the hubby about how it doesn’t matter because ya know there’s some negroes in Florida that vote anyway.

    Seriously, this is just fine with some of you? I would’ve thought a Gore fan would have problems with rigging elections in Florida. But any sleazy tactic is just fine when it’s against Obama. That pesky “people can dream” meme needs to disappear fast, by any means possible.

  70. 70
    myiq2xu says:

    Here’s why Florida matters to Hillary from a practical standpoint:

    It firewalls SC before Super-Duper Tuesday. Now she won the most recent primary, not Obama.

    Most voters will not know or care about the delegate situation. All they will see is the headline showing HRC the winner.

    I can’t wait to hear the excusifying from Obama Nation after SDT when HRC is way out front in the votes and delegates.

    And once more for the record: I’m not a HRC supporter (but the Obamaniacs are making me into one)

  71. 71
    demimondian says:

    No, you’re right, Tom. Holding a victory rally after the polls are closed is so, like wow, going to affect the election WHICH WAS ALREADY OVER. I mean, like, it’s the special sauce in Hillary’s vagina dentata — she goes back to the future to bite you. Wow!

    Dude, you’re whining. The only way you can have it both ways is on the magical unity pony, and I don’t plan on ignoring that any time soon.

  72. 72
    Caidence (fmr. Chris) says:

    where’s the conspiracy theory that says they were plants by the clinton campaign?

    It wasn’t so much a supposed conspiracy as us saying “yeah, I’d bet Mark Penn would do that”

    At least, that’s how it went for me…

  73. 73
    myiq2xu says:

    I’m convinced myiqis40 is a troll.

    It takes one to know one :p

    Hillary won the Vegas strip caucuses. You know the ones she was whining and trying to get shut down the week before.

    Hillary got the most votes, but the rural weighting gave Obama more than his fair share.

  74. 74
    The Other Steve says:

    And once more for the record: I’m not a HRC supporter (but the Obamaniacs are making me into one)

    Actually, your Hillary shilling is turning us all into Obamaniacs.

  75. 75
    Tom in Texas says:

    Well we agree that Clinton’s probably gonna win on Tuesday. I don’t think it’ll be a rout, but I think she will comfortably win in the big states and end up getting the nomination. She’s had an organization in place longer, and despite claims otherwise, Clinton was the overwhelming favorite from the start. Obama’s win in Iowa was an upset, as was finishing as high in NH as he did. He’s got the momentum, but it’s too large a hill to climb, IMO. I don’t like her tactics though. They are reprehensible no matter the ends.

  76. 76
    myiq2xu says:

    I mean, like, it’s the special sauce in Hillary’s vagina dentata

    Great, now I got beer all over my monitor.

  77. 77
    The Other Steve says:

    Hillary got the most votes, but the rural weighting gave Obama more than his fair share.

    Rural weighting? The only caucus which was waited differently was the Vegas Strip, which Clinton won.

    Got any more wisdom to share with us?

  78. 78
    socraticsilence says:

    If the situation was reversed, we would be hearing the screams from Obama Nation about how those dirty low-down Clintons rigged the system in Nevada.

    Tell you what, you get the Clinton Campagin to agree to have MI and FL caucus in June (as outlined above this would eleiminate virtually any problem), and have get the Party to abandon the establishment-bias inherent in the oncpet of “superdelegates” and I’ll bet you that I can convince the Obama campagin to relase the additional NV delegate.

  79. 79
    myiq2xu says:

    Actually, your Hillary shilling is turning us all into Obamaniacs.

    Magic Unity Pony myth #1

    “Anyone who criticizes St. Barack or Obama Nation is a shill for Hillary.”

  80. 80
    The Other Steve says:

    Well we agree that Clinton’s probably gonna win on Tuesday. I don’t think it’ll be a rout, but I think she will comfortably win in the big states and end up getting the nomination. She’s had an organization in place longer, and despite claims otherwise, Clinton was the overwhelming favorite from the start. Obama’s win in Iowa was an upset, as was finishing as high in NH as he did. He’s got the momentum, but it’s too large a hill to climb, IMO. I don’t like her tactics though. They are reprehensible no matter the ends.

    Agreed.

    It’s interesting to read George Will’s column this week. I don’t very often agree with the guy, but it’s interesting to note how similar Republicans and Clintons are at campaigning.

  81. 81
    Tom in Texas says:

    No, you’re right, Tom. (blah blah blah)…

    It was a victory speech so that it could be on all the networks tonight demi. A political ploy so that now when she says “Oh these poor disenfranchised voters need our support,” people can respond having seen her win. If you don’t think having that speech on all the networks was an attempt to legitimize her vote stealing attempt, then why do you think she did it?

  82. 82
    p-rex says:

    the hillary victory rally is for show, demi. it doesn’t affect the outcome of florida, but it sure does push the image to the low info voters that hrc has the momentum when, in reality, florida wasn’t supposed to count.

    you can defend it if you want, but she’s gaming the system and her strategy might work for her, but it damn sure hurts the democratic party.

  83. 83
    The Other Steve says:

    Magic Unity Pony myth #1

    “Anyone who criticizes St. Barack or Obama Nation is a shill for Hillary.”

    I wasn’t talking about the criticism. I was talking about the cheering of Hillary and her tactics.

  84. 84
    Caidence (fmr. Chris) says:

    I’m convinced myiqis40 is a troll.

    Not unless you call me a troll first, he’s not! (I owe you backup, myiq, apparently :) )

  85. 85
    socraticsilence says:

    “i think it was the “iron my shirt” gag that got hrc the undecideds in nh…where’s the conspiracy theory that says they were plants by the clinton campaign?”

    She’d never do that, I mean it’d be on the same level as planting questioners!

  86. 86
    myiq2xu says:

    Got any more wisdom to share with us?

    Hillary got 5407 votes/50.77%

    Obama got 4805 votes/45.12%

    By my calculations she won, but maybe you are using theat “new” math.

  87. 87
    Jim Henley says:

    John, your relief is premature.

  88. 88
    p-rex says:

    mccain projected to win florida…

  89. 89

    Some over at TPM pointed out that Rudy can look on the bright side tonight. He broke Ron Paul’s winning streak.

    Cry all you want about Florida. NO DELEGATES. None. Nada. Of course, HRC does have another “moral victory.” That, and 2025 delegates gets you the nomination.

  90. 90
    demimondian says:

    All right, boys and girls, let’s have tonight’s lesson on logical fallacies. In response to a discussion about campaigning for the Florida primary, Tom in Texas and p-rex talk about how it was an attempt to legitimize her “vote stealing”. Quick, for a thrown candy, list two classical fallacies that question embodies!

    Yes, Herb?

    Yes! It’s both an example of moving the goalposts and an example of assuming the conclusion! Very good!

  91. 91
    Neal says:

    I’m a little ashamed of my state tonight. I just can’t fathom how so many people can vote for Hilly. I don’t see it. Maybe I just like ponies, I don’t know…but I just don’t get it. After 8 years of Bush, we want another Clinton? Sounds like the War of the Roses. I miss my republic.
    I don’t know. 35 years of experience? Really? Doing what? “Change” is putting a former White House resident back in there? What? There’s no difference between voting for a war and speaking out against it? Really, Bill?
    I’m confused. Her whole campaign just doesn’t make sense to me…
    I will say, however, that I think Florida redeemed itself by getting rid of Rudy for you all. Thank god. I know it doesn’t make up for 2000, but it’s a start.
    I’m a registered independent so I couldn’t vote for anyone anyway in our closed primary. Had our delegates counted I might have joined a party long enough to vote…of course, now that Hillary won, our delegates probably will magically count.
    Damn it, I should have seen that coming.

  92. 92
    The Other Steve says:

    Hillary got 5407 votes/50.77%

    Obama got 4805 votes/45.12%

    By my calculations she won, but maybe you are using theat “new” math.

    Well I think it’s clear you don’t understand caucuses.

  93. 93
    Caidence (fmr. Chris) says:

    Quick, for a thrown candy

    I don’t get up for anything else than a Milk Bone.

    /arf

  94. 94
    John S. says:

    I’m a little ashamed of my state tonight.

    Don’t blame me. I voted for Obama today.

  95. 95
    p-rex says:

    the weird/bad thing about michigan and florida is that they will press for their delegates to be counted, even spoiling for a court fight if necessary. well, perhaps this is good in the long term because the reason they want to do it is to end the stranglehold iowa and nh have on the nominating process.

    but ultimately hrc is going to sanctimoniously pander to the poor disenfranchised electorates of both states, despite the fact that the state parties were warned all along not to move up the primaries. hrc is being disingenuous; she really only cares about winning.

    i don’t think i could vote for her in november, but obama i could (possibly). i suppose if someone could get her to make two promises i might consider it:

    1) no permanent presence in iraq. start pulling the troops out.

    2) immediately turn back the disgusting presidential power grab of the last 7 years.

    unfortunately, i don’t think she’ll do either.

  96. 96
    myiq2xu says:

    It’s interesting to read George Will’s column this week. I don’t very often agree with the guy, but it’s interesting to note how similar Republicans and Clintons are at campaigning.

    Good thing for Obama he’s transcended campaigning.

    The main thing that Obama has going for him is that he has been getting away with playing politics (including the race card) while not getting caught at it. The media have been complicit in this.

    He’s from freaking Chicago, where they invented graveyard voting and excelled at “machine” politics.

    Lose your illusions.

    My gripe with Obama is he’s inexperienced and something of a mystery. But I’ll support him if he wins the nomination.

    My gripe with Obama Nation is they act like he’s some sort of religious figure, not a politician. He’s no better (or worse) than the Clintons. He’s just the current object of media infatuation.

  97. 97
    The Other Steve says:

    Yes! It’s both an example of moving the goalposts and an example of assuming the conclusion! Very good!

    I’m fairly certain the DNC and the candidates all agreed to these rules months ago, that Florida and Michigan don’t count because they broke the agreed to terms.

    So wouldn’t moving the goal posts be claiming Florida does count, only because it’s clear you will win?

    I’m going to guess, and this is just a guess, that had Florida held a real election that counted the Democrats showing up might have outnumbered the Republicans just like every other state thus far.

    But as sparky pointed out, the main reason people showed up to the polls was to vote for a seperate issue.

  98. 98
    The Other Steve says:

    Good thing for Obama he’s transcended campaigning.

    Why do you hate America, so?

    My gripe with Obama Nation is they act like he’s some sort of religious figure, not a politician. He’s no better (or worse) than the Clintons. He’s just the current object of media infatuation.

    Funny, the only reason I prefer Obama is because he knows how to speak the language of America. The language of Hope for the future.

    Going around saying “We’re all doomed!” is an election strategy guaranteed to place you in the annals of losers, like Dukakis, Kerry and so forth.

  99. 99
    ThymeZone says:

    Just heard Rudy’s speech. I had the distinct feeling that I was watching a very bad Oliver Stone movie.

  100. 100
    myiq2xu says:

    Well I think it’s clear you don’t understand caucuses.

    I understand them, I also understand that you want to have your cake and eat it too.

    BTW – Obama started claiming he won the most delegates when the official NV line is he didn’t, at least not yet.

    Who’s gaming the system?

  101. 101
    socraticsilence says:

    Well we agree that Clinton’s probably gonna win on Tuesday. I don’t think it’ll be a rout, but I think she will comfortably win in the big states and end up getting the nomination. She’s had an organization in place longer, and despite claims otherwise, Clinton was the overwhelming favorite from the start. Obama’s win in Iowa was an upset, as was finishing as high in NH as he did. He’s got the momentum, but it’s too large a hill to climb, IMO. I don’t like her tactics though. They are reprehensible no matter the ends.

    Agreed.

    It’s interesting to read George Will’s column this week. I don’t very often agree with the guy, but it’s interesting to note how similar Republicans and Clintons are at campaigning.

    While, I don’t think HRC’s campaign tactics will depress turnout to the degree that some believe, I seroilsy doubt she’s going to achieve the kind of GE landslide Obama would (something that I think is borne out by the continous record turnout, especially in IA and SC each of nearly doubled their previous cielings, mostly on the Back of Obama’s ability to draw in the young and independent) and if what appears to be happening happens and Hillay faces John Mcain, I don’t see how she can win among independents without going “Swift Boat” level dirty, something that would quite frankly make me consider a third-party canidate (after all Mcain and Hilary are substantially similar on many issues and the issues where she’s better Women’s rights, gay right’s are strangely balanced by the issues where Mccain has the edge, civil liberties–not including the Telecom thing– torture, campaign finance reform) though ironically since they would have aleienated both of their bases we could see something weird happen.

  102. 102
    myiq2xu says:

    The language of Hope for the future.

    You must be a fan of the “Man From Hope” then, and his wife.

    Puh-leeze, next you’ll be telling us that Teddy wasn’t drunk when he drove off that bridge.

  103. 103

    I honestly can’t see Rudy going for AG — it just doens’t fit his personallity type. He seems to be someone that could never go back after having been boss.

    He’s out — back to the private sector doing whatever it is that he does. From what I can tell, that’s just selling seats as a motivational speaker — huge scam — just like all the preachers selling prosperity heaven.

  104. 104
    The Other Steve says:

    BTW – Obama started claiming he won the most delegates when the official NV line is he didn’t, at least not yet.

    Huh?

    You really really don’t understand a caucus system. The only way your scenario plays is if Obama drops out, in which case it won’t matter.

  105. 105
    The Other Steve says:

    Puh-leeze, next you’ll be telling us that Teddy wasn’t drunk when he drove off that bridge.

    Get over it.

    Kennedy endorsing Obama isn’t the end of the world for Clinton. Sheesh.

  106. 106
    p-rex says:

    back off, demi. i didn’t say anything about vote stealing. quit putting words in my digital mouth.

    my point is in following with myiq upthread. this hrc florida show is the firewall for sc. it creates a new narrative for super tuesday that says hrc has the momentum. but the point was they were supposed to stay out of florida altogether. she can push the florida fight but in the process she’s going to create a big time rift in the democratic party. if she wanted florida to count, she should have said so from the beginning and not now when she’s no longer the ‘inevitable’ nominee.

    i’ll admit i probably have the same sentiment for hrc that the owner of this site does. and i see what’s being done in florida tonight as basically reinforcement of my opinion. it’s a ploy that puts winning above everything else.

  107. 107
    The Other Steve says:

    He’s out—back to the private sector doing whatever it is that he does. From what I can tell, that’s just selling seats as a motivational speaker—huge scam—just like all the preachers selling prosperity heaven.

    I can see him as a subprime mortgage lender.

  108. 108
    Pat Buchanan says:

    The McCain Platform:

    1. The jobs are not coming back.

    2. The illegals are not going home.

    3. And we’re going to have a lot more war!

    Whhheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

  109. 109
    Caidence (fmr. Chris) says:

    My gripe with Obama is he’s inexperienced and something of a mystery.

    So is Hillary. Fucking a president doesn’t give you constitutional powers. This is a field of nitwits.

    But I’ll support him if he wins the nomination.

    Same here, replacing ‘bama with Hillary

    My gripe with Obama Nation is they act like he’s some sort of religious figure, not a politician. He’s no better (or worse) than the Clintons. He’s just the current object of media infatuation.

    He’s the first person in a long time to tell Americans that there never really was a divide in the country, that they were only told there was and they were suckered.

    Americans want to shake hands before they tussle. Politicians profit off of preventing that.

    You have to admit: in the political field, looking down on average citizens, he’s got value.

    Presidential value, though? We’ll probably find out.

  110. 110
    ThymeZone says:

    Now, Mittney’s speech. OMFG, I think we could run Barney the Dinosaur and beat these crazy delusional fucks.

    Between Huckabee, Rudy and Mitt, I haven’t heard one paragraph that was grounded in reality.

    McCain, for the big finish?

  111. 111
    myiq2xu says:

    I seroilsy doubt she’s going to achieve the kind of GE landslide Obama would (something that I think is borne out by the continous record turnout, especially in IA and SC each of nearly doubled their previous cielings, mostly on the Back of Obama’s ability to draw in the young and independent)

    You’re forgetting the G-Dub factor. Just like in November 2006, record numbers are turning out to vote for Democrats because they are sick of George W. Bush and the GOP.

    They aren’t just coming out to vote for Obama, they are coming out to vote for all Democrats including Obama.

  112. 112
    ThymeZone says:

    There is a woman over Mitt’s right shoulder (red dress) who really needs to be taken away for observation.

  113. 113
    The Other Steve says:

    Now, Mittney’s speech. OMFG, I think we could run Barney the Dinosaur and beat these crazy delusional fucks.

    Between Huckabee, Rudy and Mitt, I haven’t heard one paragraph that was grounded in reality.

    McCain, for the big finish?

    I’ve said McCain ever since Iowa… just because he seems to sit between the other weirdos.

    Although looking at the math, if Rudy drops out, and especially if Huckabee drops out. McCain may have a harder time.

  114. 114
    myiq2xu says:

    He’s the first person in a long time to tell Americans that there never really was a divide in the country, that they were only told there was and they were suckered.

    I guess we never had a Civil War, Jim Crow or the Civil Rights Movement.

  115. 115

    McCain, for the big finish?

    Happy Ending? (This is your fault myiq2xu!)

  116. 116
    The Other Steve says:

    I guess we never had a Civil War, Jim Crow or the Civil Rights Movement.

    So we should hate the British?

  117. 117

    Now, Mittney’s speech. OMFG, I think we could run Barney the Dinosaur and beat these crazy delusional fucks.

    If I had cable, I’d probably lose my job. I’ll just wait to hear the snippets on the radio or watch at work . . .

    (The Great One Mark Levine is quite entertaining: RANT!!!!)

  118. 118
    socraticsilence says:

    The main thing that Obama has going for him is that he has been getting away with playing politics (including the race card) while not getting caught at it. The media have been complicit in this.

    The main thing for Hillary is that she’s name Clinton, period, seriously she playing the Dubya in 2000 card, I don’t wnat ot here how its actually a burden or how if she were a man the race would be over alreadym beacuse that’s crap, a one and a hlf term senator with no visible charisma would not even be in contention for the nomination if she wasn’t married to Bill (seriously, you want to play the experience card! Well, then call me when Dodd, Biden and Richardson work out who among them gets the nod, because they were all more battle-tested in actual policy terms than Hillary).

  119. 119
    demimondian says:

    Sorry, p-rex, you’re right. You didn’t say anything about vote stealing; that was purely Tom.

    You pissed me off with your condescending comment about low-information voters, which I took to be basically the same thing, but, you’re right, you didn’t accuse her of a crime, and I shouldn’t have said you did.

  120. 120
    cleek says:

    the Reps are picking the person most likely to woo independents. the Dems are picking the person least likely to woo independents.

    shocking. truly.

  121. 121
    myiq2xu says:

    So we should hate the British?

    No, the Spanish.

  122. 122
    The Other Steve says:

    The main thing for Hillary is that she’s name Clinton, period, seriously she playing the Dubya in 2000 card, I don’t wnat ot here how its actually a burden or how if she were a man the race would be over alreadym beacuse that’s crap, a one and a hlf term senator with no visible charisma would not even be in contention for the nomination if she wasn’t married to Bill

    So, most of those who voted for George in 2000 thought they were voting for his father.

  123. 123
    Tom in Texas says:

    Winning Michigan and Florida has about as much effect on the US Democratic primary as winning a vote in Mexico. Congratulations Hillary for winning by campaigning in a state you agreed not to — one that is meaningless if you play by the rules you agreed to.

    Hillary was in Florida tonight. And what she gave sounded an awful lot like a campaign speech. And her tactics now are awful. She agreed to play by a set of rules when she was dominant and then decided to break them now that it’s more competitive than she assumed.

  124. 124
    The Other Steve says:

    No, the Spanish.

    One thing I’ve learned about Americans. They don’t have history.

    What matters is what started happening maybe 5 years ago. Everything else is a blur that doesn’t matter.

  125. 125
    Doug H. says:

    You’re forgetting the G-Dub factor. Just like in November 2006, record numbers are turning out to vote for Democrats because they are sick of George W. Bush and the GOP.

    Unfortunately, the guy we’ll be up against also ran against G-Dub and is hated by the GOP establishment.

    They aren’t just coming out to vote for Obama, they are coming out to vote for all Democrats including Obama.

    True, but the growing wedge between Obama and Clinton supporters makes me fear that not all the guys voting D now will do the same come November.

    Just call me Nostradamus when a year from now we’re scratching our heads at President McCain’s inauguration.

  126. 126
    ThymeZone says:

    There he is, your front runner. This lying, pandering, crazy fucking warmonger.

    If we lose this election, this guy is probably your next president. If that doesn’t scare you into getting out and working for your favorite Democrat, both in the primaries and in the general election …. then nothing will.

  127. 127

    So we should hate the British?

    You don’t?

    It doesn’t bother you that having a british accent supposedly adds 10 points to your IQ? This fallacy has never bothered you?

  128. 128
    myiq2xu says:

    They don’t have history.

    I majored in it.

  129. 129
    p-rex says:

    well clearly you’re not a low info voter…i think the distinction isn’t condescending because it basically defines a sector of the electorate.

    i certainly don’t have the “i’m a high information voter” t-shirt. i often wish i could just not care about this politics crap so much. but i jus’ can’t hep myself.

  130. 130
    crw says:

    I think it’s high time Obamatard came back into regular usage. Yeesh. </troll>

    Seriously, though. Yes, Obama is exciting. Great. But the lack of critical thinking and blind acceptance of pro-Obama spin around here is disgusting.

    Obama is a politician who just happens to be good at speechifying. Nothing more, nothing less. Hell, lets even grant he’s pure as the snow. The people running his campaign aren’t. They are very clearly engaging in spin (the whole “Obama really won the NV caucus even though he didn’t” meme and crying race-baiting at the slightest little thing) and the media and all the Obama fanboi/girls are swallowing it hook line and sinker.

    Yeah…I can see why people would be driven to distraction by this crap, and want to vote for someone else. And as others have pointed out, the media mania will pass. Will Obama look so hot then?

  131. 131
    myiq2xu says:

    It doesn’t bother you that having a british accent supposedly adds 10 points to your IQ?

    And bad teeth

  132. 132
    ThymeZone says:

    It doesn’t bother you that having a british accent supposedly adds 10 points to your IQ?

    Hm.

    Hey, can anyone tell me what those idiots are chanting at the McCain rally?

  133. 133

    One thing I’ve learned about Americans. They don’t have history.

    That’s not exactly fair. Look at where history got eastern Europe. They couldn’t agree on when it started and then just killed each other.

  134. 134
    John Cole says:

    Seriously, though. Yes, Obama is exciting. Great. But the lack of critical thinking and blind acceptance of pro-Obama spin around here is disgusting.

    You have to be kidding me? I think we have stood as the lone anti-“ZOMG OBAMA IS THE BOMB” website.
    You must be new here.

  135. 135
    myiq2xu says:

    They couldn’t agree on when it started and then just killed each other.

    Or Iraq. They’re killing each other over shit that happened 1200+ years ago

  136. 136
    socraticsilence says:

    “she can push the florida fight but in the process she’s going to create a big time rift in the democratic party.”

    Frankly, from what I’ve heard they want to do that anyway, kick out Dean and put Mcauliffe, et al back in charge, return the DLC to power (heck, they’ll probably invite Lieberman back so we don’t get any crazy ideas).

  137. 137
    myiq2xu says:

    You have to be kidding me? I think we have stood as the lone anti-”ZOMG OBAMA IS THE BOMB” website.
    You must be new here.

    Left Coaster, Daily Howler, Bartcop. But BJ is about the only interactive site.

  138. 138

    Hey, can anyone tell me what those idiots are chanting at the McCain rally?

    bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran?

    I’m just guessing.

  139. 139
    crw says:

    You have to be kidding me? I think we have stood as the lone anti-”ZOMG OBAMA IS THE BOMB” website.
    You must be new here.

    Err, I’m more referring to the commentariat here, not you or the ‘official stance’ if a blog can have such a thing.

  140. 140
    demimondian says:

    I’ve been at this for a long time, and I’ve learned that by the time things really matter, there really aren’t any low information voters. I know — the discussions around me in the office are just now turning to “Oh, yeah, Lincoln Savings and Loan” “Oh, yes, that’s right — he said a lot about torture, then caved” “Oh, yeah, that’s right” etc.

    Yes, these folks are low information voters now, but they won’t be by the election; they’ll catch up to us. More than that, there’s a lot of information to process between now and then, and they depend on people like you and me to prioritize that information while they’re not focussed on the horse-race. If we do that, and if this is really an important event, then they’ll get this info when they need it: right before the election.

    If, as I expect, this makes a lot of Florida voters look more kindly at her in June when they have a caucus, that will have been nothing more than good politics. She made an agreement to not campaign, and she kept that agreement, just as Obama did. She didn’t do anything more than keep that agreement, either…just as he did.

  141. 141
    myiq2xu says:

    Frankly, from what I’ve heard they want to do that anyway, kick out Dean and put Mcauliffe, et al back in charge, return the DLC to power (heck, they’ll probably invite Lieberman back so we don’t get any crazy ideas).

    Sez who?

    Do you really have a source or are you just snarking?

    Cuz if you ain’t snarking then I’ll bet you’re regurgitating somebody’s talking points.

    Somebody with a Magic Unity Pony.

  142. 142
    Neal says:

    call me when Dodd, Biden and Richardson work out who among them gets the nod, because they were all more battle-tested in actual policy terms than Hillary

    Amen. The media parroted Hillary’s “experience” bullshit for a long time until Barack finally won something (Iowa). Then they fell in love with him…I guess they realized there was actually a choice.

    The main thing that Obama has going for him is that he has been getting away with playing politics (including the race card) while not getting caught at it. The media have been complicit in this.

    myiq2xu, I love your posts 98% of the time (and I don’t post often myself) but I don’t really see how Obama has played that card so much. Maybe I missed it. Give me an example. To me, it seems like he has tried to avoid it to some extent.
    I’m not an Obama maniac but given my choices at this point, I do favor him heavily. I read his first book a couple of years ago, I saw him speak last year (before the Florida campaign ban). Policy wise, I’m not so much a “progressive” so there is plenty he and I disagree on but I am more concerned with having a leader I can somewhat respect and who has decent intentions/judgement. After Bush, that is all I am hoping for. With Clinton, I feel that is the last thing I would get. She’s poll driven and power hungry in my eyes and I just don’t think she can change that perception that I have of her (and Bill) after so many years. Maybe that’s unfair. I don’t think so.

  143. 143
    demimondian says:

    Nah, myiq — that’s what I’ve heard from my little birdies, too. Whether I trust them or not…well, notice that I’m not *in* politics, so I obviously don’t trust them too much.

    I don’t think the Lieberman rumor is well founded — I think that endorsing McCain will have finally closed out his welcome with the DLC — but I fully expect a Clinton victory to bring back Carville, McAuliffe, Carville, and that whole cast of less-than-savoury thugs.

  144. 144
  145. 145
    demimondian says:

    [sigh] that should read “Penn, McAuliffe, Carville, and that whole cast of…”

  146. 146
    ThymeZone says:

    Somebody with a Magic Unity Pony.

    dude, if you never believe anything anyone says around here, you should believe this:

    You need some new material. The act is wearing thin.

    V.e.r.y.t.h.i.n.

    thinnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn.

  147. 147

    Yes, these folks are low information voters now, but they won’t be by the election; they’ll catch up to us.

    I’d be curious to see how much of Bush’s SOTU speech stuck with voters. Have enough of his lies been debunked? Prolly it was most. It seemed that the buzz on wingnut radio this morning was whether Hillary copycatted Barack. (Which of course makes the commentator look childish and no the targets.)

    On the one hand, I can’t wait for this to be decided. But on the other hand, I’m really enjoying it.

    OhOHoHOhoH — Mark Levine is saying that if McCain wins FLA, he’s leaving radio. BAWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

    Baby. ‘I hate McCain. I’m leaving.’ Stamps feet and leaves the room crying. (He’s still prattling on.)

  148. 148
    D-Chance. says:

    Awww… Hannity is pissed.

    He’s grilling his fellow Republicans now because they like McCain.

  149. 149
    Jen says:

    She didn’t do anything more than keep that agreement, either…just as he did.

    Wait a minute, she’s pushing to have the votes counted. In other words, she toed the party line, and said, too bad for you, Florida, shouldn’t have moved up the primary, now I won’t come there — /time elapses/ — oh wait, I’m going to win? Count the votes! Count the votes!

    Am I wrong about this? Because let me just tell you now, if she raises a fuss and gets those Florida votes counted and wins the nomination because of that? There is almost nothing that would make me not vote for her if she is the nominee…but that would.

  150. 150
    socraticsilence says:

    So, most of those who voted for George in 2000 thought they were voting for his father.

    And most of Hillary’s voters assume they’ll be getting an end run around the constitution and term 3 of Clinton.

  151. 151
    demimondian says:

    Mark Levine is saying that if McCain wins FLA, he’s leaving radio.

    All I can say is “Really? Don’t let the studio door hit you on the way out.”

  152. 152
  153. 153
    myiq2xu says:

    myiq2xu, I love your posts 98% of the time (and I don’t post often myself) but I don’t really see how Obama has played that card so much. Maybe I missed it. Give me an example. To me, it seems like he has tried to avoid it to some extent.

    From Sam Stein at HuffPost:

    Sen. Barack Obama’s presidential campaign has prepared a detailed memo listing various instances in which it perceived Sen. Hillary Clinton’s campaign to have deliberately played the race card in the Democratic primary.
    The memo, which was obtained by the Huffington Post and has been made public elsewhere, is believed to have been given to an activist and contains mostly excerpts from different media reports. It lists the contact info and name of Obama’s South Carolina press secretary, Amaya Smith, and is broken down into five incidents in which either Clinton, her husband Bill, or campaign surrogates made comments that could be interpreted as racially insensitive.

    The document provides an indication that, in private, the Obama campaign is seeking to capitalize on the view – and push the narrative – that the Clintons are using race-related issues for political leverage. In public, the Obama campaign has denied that they are trying to propagate such a perception, noting that the document never was sent to the press.
    1/12/08

    Of course the Obamaniacs will tell you that Big O disowned the memo (when it became public.)

  154. 154
    demimondian says:

    Jen, you’re a lawyer. You need to do a bit of parsing. What she said was that they should have votes that counted — she very carefully did not say that the primaries should count. Of course, everybody assumed that meant the same thing, but it doesn’t.

    Of course Clinton would be thrilled to get the delegates from two uncontested states, but I doubt that she or her people think that’s at all likely. The solution to the problem that Michiganders and Floridians find themselves in is simple, though — they should caucus. That’s what we do in Washington state; our primary is not recognized by the party, so we caucus, too.

  155. 155
    empty says:

    Jon Swift has a rather detailed answer for those who think Obama would win in the general – riffing of the Kennedy endorsement. A sample:

    When Hillary Clinton pointed out that it took Lyndon Johnson to get the Civil Rights bill passed, she was not only insulting Martin Luther King but also JFK, who did all the hard work of asking southern Democrats very politely to please vote for the Civil Rights bill, which they might have done some time in future as soon as they looked into their consciences and realized it was the right thing to do. Then Kennedy died and Johnson stepped in, rudely cajoling people and threatening to show them his scar unless they voted for it. Is that the kind of politics we want in America?

  156. 156
    Jen says:

    thinnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn.

    Even though you think I’m a guy when actually I am a reasonably attractive womangirl, thanks for saying this anyway.

  157. 157

    unfortunately, demi, he’s just going to ‘soldier on’ because he can’t surrender to ‘socialists’ like McCain.

  158. 158
    demimondian says:

    It’s the only way that Mark Levin is a soldier then. John McCain may be a two-faced, Bush-supporting, radical right wing lunatic, but at least he really was a soldier.

  159. 159
    ThymeZone says:

    Even though you think I’m a guy when actually I am a reasonably attractive womangirl

    This is BJ, sir or madam. I believe everything, and nothing.

    For all you know, I could be John Cole. For all I know, you could be John Cole. For all John knows, we could both be students of his who are just fucking with him.

    Since I am a Flannery O’Connor fan, I have a deep appreciate for mystery.

  160. 160
    myiq2xu says:

    Wait a minute, she’s pushing to have the votes counted. In other words, she toed the party line, and said, too bad for you, Florida, shouldn’t have moved up the primary, now I won’t come there—/time elapses/—oh wait, I’m going to win? Count the votes! Count the votes!

    She toed the line until after Iowa and NH (who want to be exclusively 1st and 2nd) and then . . . didn’t campaign in Michigan or Florida.

    What do the Democratic voters in Michigan and Florida think?

    Do you think they want their votes to count too?

    I’m sure Obama wouldn’t want them to count if he won those states cuz he’s transcended that stuff.

  161. 161
    Jen says:

    What needs further parsing here?

  162. 162
    ThymeZone says:

    I have a deep appreciate for mystery.

    And I have a deep dislike for that bane of the intertrontubes, the uneditable post.

  163. 163
    John S. says:

    John McCain may be a two-faced, Bush-supporting, radical right wing lunatic, but at least he really was a soldier.

    So we will be hearing for the next 9 months.

    That odious piece of shit Bill Bennett was on CNN (oh, the humanity) a while ago trumpeting that ‘for a guy who spent six years in the Hanoi Hilton, coming back to win Florida was easy’.

    I’m already tired of hearing about it.

  164. 164

    Of course Clinton would be thrilled to get the delegates from two uncontested states, but I doubt that she or her people think that’s at all likely.

    Whether the delegates are seated or not is about party unity. The push last year to unseat Iowa and NH as the candidate choosers was something that I supported — as well as the penalties. Texas didn’t move up with the other SDT states and so we all sit here and hope that we get to vote and the caucus (we do both).

    The primary as well as the electoral system needs to be changed. It’s been done before.

  165. 165
    myiq2xu says:

    Even though you think I’m a guy when actually I am a reasonably attractive womangirl, thanks for saying this anyway.

    Et tu, Brute?

    Oh wait, you and TZ are the same person! Am I in there too?

  166. 166
    demimondian says:

    It helps to read your own sources, Jen:

    The presidential candidate said Friday — just four days before Florida’s primary — that she wants the convention delegates from Florida and Michigan reinstated.

    Exactly the point I was making; she didn’t call for the primaries to be recognized.

  167. 167
    wasabi gasp says:

    I’m a guy

    …trapped in a reasonably attractive womangirl’s body.

  168. 168
    Jen says:

    I am in favor of counting votes. I believe that we need to come up with some system that makes more sense than this jockeying for position my state is better than your state nonsense. So if you’re going to stand on the principle that Florida and Michigan’s votes should count…
    Find
    that
    principle
    sometime
    before
    four
    days
    before
    a
    Florida
    election
    which you are
    heavily
    predicted
    to
    win.
    Cause otherwise? It kinda looks like you don’t give a damn about the voters, just the votes.

  169. 169
    ThymeZone says:

    Do you think they want their votes to count too?

    Why should votes count in a rigged, fucked election in which the candidate field mostly opts out and then one candidate opts in just to be a fuckhead?

    If they wanted votes to count, then they should have worked out an arrangement for a real primary, acceptable to the party.

  170. 170
    myiq2xu says:

    For all you know, I could be John Cole. For all I know, you could be John Cole. For all John knows, we could both be students of his who are just fucking with him.

    Could we all be John Cole in some demented dream world?

  171. 171
    socraticsilence says:

    They are very clearly engaging in spin (the whole “Obama really won the NV caucus even though he didn’t” meme and crying race-baiting at the slightest little thing),

    Do you really think thaty Obama’s benefited more from “race-baiting” than Clitnon has from the “backlasjh against misgynonist press”?

    I’ll admit the Lieberman thing wasa bit churlish on my part, but the thought of the whole Clinton crew returning (and I liked Bill) is a big factor in my decision to support anyone but Hil for the nomination, not as abig as the positive case laid out by Barrack, but big.

  172. 172
    demimondian says:

    Oh, inc, don’t get me wrong. I don’t think that the delegates should be seated in their current way either. It’s about party unity. (Beside, what do you think that we up here in Washington State would think if two bigger states got their primaries restored, but we don’t get ours? Not a good picture, eh?)

    That doesn’t mean that Clinton said they should; they shouldn’t.

  173. 173
    myiq2xu says:

    Cause otherwise? It kinda looks like you don’t give a damn about the voters, just the votes.

    Like in Nevada?

  174. 174
    Jen says:

    What are you saying, Demi, that she wants the delegates seated but doesn’t want their votes to count? She just wants them to be able to get the hors d’ouevres?

    I readily cop to not understanding the intricacies of the beast that is the Democratic primary, so I could still be wrong, but a hell of a lot of people are wrong with me if that is the case…

  175. 175
    myiq2xu says:

    If they wanted votes to count, then they should have worked out an arrangement for a real primary, acceptable to the party.

    Yeah, one that didn’t interfere with the traditional special treatment Iowa and New Hampshire enjoy.

  176. 176
    John S. says:

    What do the Democratic voters in Michigan and Florida think?

    As a Democratic voter in Florida, I think it sucks the party stripped of us our delegates. I also think that it would be ridiculous to change the rules after the fact and award our delegates to Hillary. I voted for Obama. It may not help him get any delegates either, but it was counted.

    Any candidate that tries to argue that our delegates should be awarded (for whatever reason) after this odious blow was dealt to us will receive more ire from me than the party did for stripping our delegates in the first place.

  177. 177
    ThymeZone says:

    Could we all be John Cole in some demented dream world?

    Oh yes. Or in the real world.

    Or, we could all be Haile Selassie.

    Or, Haile Questionable.

  178. 178
    demimondian says:

    Look, folks — let be be very clear about something. I’ll have no trouble voting for either Clinton or Obama in November. I’ll even be excited about it. I would get out to vote for Edwards, but I don’t trust him; he’s had an unmotivated vision on the road to Damascus which led him to desert the DLC principles upon which he’d based his whole life previously. But I’m going to be happy no matter which of the big two wins.

    As long as Edwards isn’t on the ticket.

  179. 179
    crw says:

    That odious piece of shit Bill Bennett was on CNN (oh, the humanity) a while ago trumpeting that ‘for a guy who spent six years in the Hanoi Hilton, coming back to win Florida was easy’.

    I have some very Republican acquaintances who swear up and down McCain wasn’t really tortured back when he spoke out against waterboarding. How much you want to bet when he gets the nom they’ll be eating this shit up and defending his record as The War Hero?

  180. 180

    That odious piece of shit Bill Bennett was on CNN

    Have you ever listened to his radio show? It is the most unprofessional wingnut radio talk show on the air. Complete farce.

    Look up Claremont Institute if you want to see how trivial he and his crew is.

    And yet he whines about burning the candle at both ends. Stupid fat fuck.

  181. 181
    John S. says:

    As long as Edwards isn’t on the ticket.

    Get ready to be pissed off, then.

    Do you think Edwards is hanging around and collecting delegates for nothing? Of course not. He’s going to parlay his delegates into a position with the candidate that needs them the most.

  182. 182
    Jen says:

    Thanks, John S., you are more eloquent than me.

    Since I don’t know wtf the Nevada issue is, I found this — so he wants his extra delegate under an “arcane weighting system” that appears to be in effect? This is somehow comparable to changing the rules after the fact?

  183. 183
    demimondian says:

    No, Jen. That’s willful ignorance.

    I pointed out that there’s another state which runs a beauty contest primary for which candidates don’t campaign: Washington State, where I live. On the ninth of February, I’m going to go pick up the eldest, and he and FDDD and I will go spend the afternoon at the Democratic Presidential Caucus, where I plan on caucusing for…one of the big two. Then, on the nineteenth, I’ll walk across the street to vote in the primary election, which is nothing more than a beauty contest. I figure I’ll vote for the other one, since my vote won’t matter.

  184. 184
    Jen says:

    Demi, you have still not explained why HRC has taken the high road here, but I have to go to bed soon. Act fast.

  185. 185
    demimondian says:

    Frankly, I expect the ticket to be O/C or C/O. All we’re arguing about here is the order, and we all realize it.

  186. 186
    crw says:

    Do you really think thaty Obama’s benefited more from “race-baiting” than Clitnon has from the “backlasjh against misgynonist press”?

    Well, it worked in SC, didn’t it? Expect this issue to quietly disappear and Obama to go back to Unity Race Transcending Ponies now that he has to win a bunch of states where the vote is majority white.

  187. 187
    myiq2xu says:

    As a Democratic voter in Florida, I think it sucks the party stripped of us our delegates. I also think that it would be ridiculous to change the rules after the fact and award our delegates to Hillary. I voted for Obama. It may not help him get any delegates either, but it was counted.

    Any candidate that tries to argue that our delegates should be awarded (for whatever reason) after this odious blow was dealt to us will receive more ire from me than the party did for stripping our delegates in the first place.

    And if by the time of the convention HRC or BHO has enough votes to win the nomination either way will you still be pissed off?

    I’ll bet you won’t hear much about it again, at least not for a while.

    BTW – The official line from Camp Obama is “Florida doesn’t count.” Big surprise there.

  188. 188
    demimondian says:

    But I have.

    She said one thing, but people interpreted it to mean something else. The primary votes WON’T MATTER, and nobody who’s thought about it thinks that they will. The two states will find a different way to get delegates at the convention — just like we do. So she was clever…that’s a problem for a politician? Since when?

  189. 189
    Jen says:

    I do not know what you are talking about, demi, with the willful ignorance. HRC is trying to get the delegates counted after the party stripped them of their delegates. She took this stand when she was within sight of winning Florida’s voters. I think that is craven and awful. I cannot understand what I am getting wrong here, but if I am, please tell me. I want to be able to vote for Hillary should she be the nominee. But if she wins it that way, I cannot.

  190. 190
    Neal says:

    myiq2xu, fair point. I get it…
    But at the risk of sounding like a baby, I think the Clintons started it…they did inject the Dr King/LBJ storyline into the campaign…and the “Jesse Jackson won SC twice” comment was ridiculous.
    Just my opinion.
    That was something that I have always liked about Obama so far…that he wasn’t a Sharpton or Jackson in that sense. They are so divisive in their approach. I really do feel it’s wrong for Clinton (Bill) to try and paint Obama with that brush…but it does work on the uneducated voter.

    Obama seems to focus more on America in general. He beats the unity drum a bit too much, that I admit – the novelty does wear off after a while…but that’s no different than any other candidate. They all pick a theme and run with it, whether it be “2 Americas”, “Experience”, “I’m more conservative than you”, “Change Change Change”, etc…

    Moreso than the Clintons though, I would lay the blame on the media. They bring up race incessantly, in any situation and in any story, and then wonder why we never move past it.

  191. 191
    John Cole says:

    BTW – The official line from Camp Obama is “Florida doesn’t count.” Big surprise there.

    Florida DOESN’T count, notwithstanding Hillary’s attempt to go back on her word. You can attack the Obama fan boys for a lot of shit, but this little bit of hackdom on Hillary’s part is pure fucking shameless.

  192. 192
    demimondian says:

    Jen, tomorrow, in the morning, go back and read what she said, as if you were reading a contract. Look at the WORDS, not at the context in which they were uttered. She said nothing about the primary.

    Got it? Yes, she was clever. But she didn’t buck the party. And none of us (including me) saw the verbal sleight of hand for several days.

  193. 193
    Jen says:

    Demi, it sounds like you will even have to explain to our erstwhile host what, precisely, is this hair which you are splitting. A link, maybe, I dunno, I am not getting it.

  194. 194
    John S. says:

    And if by the time of the convention HRC or BHO has enough votes to win the nomination either way will you still be pissed off?

    Only at the Democratic party for pulling this idiotic blunder to begin with. They let the Republicans ride across my state and pollute evry fucking marketing venue with their bullshit completely unchallenged by an opposing position. That was the real injury.

    As for the Obama camp’s new slogan, I could care less. I may come from British ancestry, but it doesn’t leave me longing for a monarchy. In my entire life, I have only seen presidents named Bush or Clinton (oh, and Saint Ronnie of course). I am tired of it.

  195. 195
    demimondian says:

    John, you’re a little late to the thread. The story is, as is often the case with the Clintons, a bit more textured and nuanced than the conventional wisdom has it.

  196. 196
    ThymeZone says:

    this little bit of hackdom on Hillary’s part is pure fucking shameless.

    Word.

  197. 197
    John Cole says:

    Jen, tomorrow, in the morning, go back and read what she said, as if you were reading a contract. Look at the WORDS, not at the context in which they were uttered. She said nothing about the primary.

    Got it? Yes, she was clever. But she didn’t buck the party. And none of us (including me) saw the verbal sleight of hand for several days.

    All the more reason to shit on Hillary and vote against her. I have had 8 years of clever legal games, and watched people lawyer their way into torture and all sorts of bullshit.

    Wrong is wrong, whether the person has an (R) or a (D) after their name, and frankly, I am embarrassed for the commenters here who think that her behavior is acceptable. Fuck her.

  198. 198

    I readily cop to not understanding the intricacies of the beast that is the Democratic primary, so I could still be wrong, but a hell of a lot of people are wrong with me if that is the case…

    It’s easy enough to figure out, even for a girl.

    And you would be wrong to think that you are the norm among voters. I know polling and such would make me ‘seem’ wrong, but I’ve always found that the democratic system is fairly easy to understand.

    This election was different because FLA and Michigan bucked the system even though the Dems tried tweaking it.

  199. 199
    demimondian says:

    OK, but, Jen, you already used the perfect link yourself.

  200. 200
    D-Chance. says:

    You think tonight’s been fun for the Romney supporters?

    K Lo’s House of Crazy is living up to its billing.

    “So it is over. Finished. In November, we’ll be sending out our most liberal, least trustworthy candidate vs. to take on Hillary Clinton—perhaps not more liberal than Barack Obama, but certainly far less trustworthy.”

  201. 201
    Neal says:

    Jen, I back you on how fucked up HRC is in regards to the FL delegates. I’m in Florida. A lot of Barack’s core people (young, independent, etc) didn’t bother because the delegates supposedly didn’t count. HRC has the old people and they always show up.
    Also, Obama couldn’t campaign here. Hillary possesses the name “Clinton”. Not a fair contest in my opinion. You know damn well she would have thrown a fit if Obama had won.

  202. 202
    Tom in Texas says:

    Look, folks—let be be very clear about something. I’ll have no trouble voting for either Clinton or Obama in November. I’ll even be excited about it. I would get out to vote for Edwards, but I don’t trust him; he’s had an unmotivated vision on the road to Damascus which led him to desert the DLC principles upon which he’d based his whole life previously. But I’m going to be happy no matter which of the big two wins.

    As long as Edwards isn’t on the ticket.

    Hear hear, demi. I will vote for Hillary or Obama in the general, even if Edwards is on the ticket, but I do not like her. At all. And I am voting for Obama here in Texas’ primary. I don’t like the way she handled Florida. If for no other reason than because this hamhanded politics is too easy to criticize. For someone running on her Machiavellian political touch, she looks pretty bumbling to me, at least recently.

    However, as I said upthread, I think Hillary will win on Tuesday, and will also win the election. Obama’s only hope, in my opinion, is a close showing on Tuesday and an incredibly strong performance in both Ohio and Texas.

    As for my vote stealing comment, it was extreme, and I am sorry. As loathsome as I find Hillary’s acts, they are not criminal. I think she is playing on Obama’s naivete (like naively assuming all the candidates would withdraw their names from a Michigan race they agreed not to participate in, or assuming that no campagning in a state means no victory speeches in the state preceded by multiple fundraising appearances).

  203. 203
    ThymeZone says:

    Hillary did nothing wrong, she is just showing us how she will do Signing Statements when she gets elected.

    She even has the smirk down.

  204. 204
    Neal says:

    Wrong is wrong, whether the person has an® or a (D) after their name, and frankly, I am embarrassed for the commenters here who think that her behavior is acceptable. Fuck her.

    Thank you, John Cole.

  205. 205
    myiq2xu says:

    Florida DOESN’T count, notwithstanding Hillary’s attempt to go back on her word.

    Then why did they bother to count the votes? It doesn’t count for delegates, but it shows the preference of the Florida voters.

  206. 206
    demimondian says:

    To do a bit of armchair psychologizing, I suspect, honestly, that you so deeply despise the Clintons because they are fundamentally not straightforward people. In fact, in my opinion, they are truly slimy people. I happen to think they’re good slimy people, but, believe me, they are slimy, slimy folk.

    I can work with an eel; I do it all the time. You just have to take the eel for what it is, and not pretend that you can trust it. You can, however, negotiate with it to reach a compromise which benefits everyone. You can’t do that with an absolutist.

    The Republican party has become a party of absolutists, bullies and obstructionists. That’s why they’re a disaster; they *know* what’s best, and they don’t want to waste time with the evidence that shows them to be otherwise.

  207. 207
    ThymeZone says:

    Then why did they bother to count the votes?

    Indeed. Congrats, you just caught to my question of two hours ago.

    The better question is, why is the media letting her get a free pass on this shitty behavior? Don’t they have one fucking person with a pair or a brain to challenge it?

  208. 208
    Jen says:

    Inco, if the democratic primary system, with delegates and superdelegates and primaries and DNC rules about primaries that four states are allowed to break and arcane rules in Nevada that give Barack more delegates than HRC even though she got more votes, and states that prorate their votes and states that award all their votes to one person, etc., etc. are easy for you to understand, then my hat is off to you, but I’ll thank you not to condescend to me. I will vote for Ron Paul before I’ll agree that the “norm among voters” is to understand this nonsense.

    Here is what she said:

    I believe our nominee will need the enthusiastic support of Democrats in these states to win the general election, and so I will ask my Democratic convention delegates to support seating the delegations from Florida and Michigan,

    Okay. She wants. Those delegations. Which voted for her. To be seated. And vote for her. And she wants this now. What am I missing?

    I read fifteen to twenty contracts a day, none of them have anything to do with election law. Thank. God.

  209. 209

    On the DNC, Hillary has no say about MI/FL delegates, she’s lied to them and broken the deal in regard to those states. That alone makes her a liar and cheat for the benefit of nobody but Hillary. Those states might have time to fix their delegate situation by holding caucuses, but time is very short if they have it.

    As for Dean, the winner will take effective control of the apparatus until the election is over, Dean will stay and not be replaced except by vote of the State Parties. Put up your hand if you’re a (D) but you have no idea how your national Party works. Put up the other hand if you have no idea who it was that elected Dean to the Chair. Stick your head well up your ass if you think DLC is well beloved at DNC or will win shit for a long time in DNC.

    There are a lot of very useful assets Hillary is alienating with this “seat the delegates” bullshit. This is exactly the kind of shit that is NEVER forgotten in outfits like DNC. I will neither forgive nor forget, I will do no more than mark her name if she’s the nominess and that is a lost resource of some value and others will go the same way.

    myiqis2,
    you get accused of being a Hillshill for the simple reason that you repeat her campaign claims as though they were some kind of fact or meaningful. Leave me out of the Pony, Edwards. If I can’t have him as candidate, I want him to have delegates that get traded for a blood oath.

  210. 210
    myiq2xu says:

    I have had 8 years of clever legal games, and watched people lawyer their way into torture and all sorts of bullshit.

    Now you’re blaming Hillary for G-Dub’s misdeeds.

    BTW – Both Obamas and both Clintons are lawyers.

    Seems like you’re fucked either way John.

  211. 211
    Jen says:

    Then why did they bother to count the votes? It doesn’t count for delegates, but it shows the preference of the Florida voters.

    THey counted the votes because Florida wanted to count the votes, right? The DNC can’t tell the state it can’t have an election, but it can tell them it won’t seat its delegates. Right?

  212. 212
    ThymeZone says:

    I suspect, honestly, that you so deeply despise the Clintons

    Are you just pathologically incapable of letting people have opinions without shitting your fucked up pschoanalysis all over the blog all the time?

    Fuck you, man. Fuck you and the horse you rode in on.

    Not everything is a fucking passion play. This is about politics, and people can have opinions without being as derganged as you are.

  213. 213
    demimondian says:

    I believe our nominee will need the enthusiastic support of Democrats in these states to win the general election, and so I will ask my Democratic convention delegates to support seating the delegations from Florida and Michigan,

    Which delegations, Jen? Did she say “the delegations selected by the primaries.”

    No, she didn’t. She said “the delegations from Florida and Michigan”. She didn’t say anything about how those delegations would have been selected.

  214. 214
    crw says:

    I gotta side with the Hillskeptics on the FL/MI delegates flap. If anyone truly believes she’s just worried about the voters of FL and MI getting disenfranchised, or the eventual nominee’s chances in the general election in those two states…well, I have a nice Shiny Unity Pony to sell you, only lightly used!

  215. 215
    myiq2xu says:

    Okay. She wants. Those delegations. Which voted for her. To be seated. And vote for her. And she wants this now. What am I missing?

    What has she done besides take a position? Has she filed a lawsuit? Has she proclaimed herself winner of the nomination based on these disputed delegates?

    No. She’s done nothing except shoot off her mouth, which is supposed to be legal in this country.

    Like I said before, I bet you hear very little on this subject again.

  216. 216

    I don’t have one lick of sympathy for Michigan’s voters. It was their state party leadership (Carl Levin, et al) that fucked them. Same-same Florida. Although it was the legislature who made the decision. The Florida Dem’s in the legislature were in on the deal: they voted with the Republicans to move up the primary date.

    Florida and Michigan voters should blame their own leadership! Boo-fucking-hoo bitches, get over it.

  217. 217
    myiq2xu says:

    you get accused of being a Hillshill for the simple reason that you repeat her campaign claims as though they were some kind of fact or meaningful.

    I’m an Edwards supporter too.

    But I get called a “Hillshill” cuz I criticize Obama.

  218. 218

    but I’ll thank you not to condescend to me.

    Get off and get educated.

    I will vote for Ron Paul

    You started off here as a Paultard. That’s why I suspected you. Look like you still are. Or have you switched to the newest fan phase?

    Milktoast at best, Jen.

  219. 219
    demimondian says:

    TZ, you’re an arrogant fool. I’m not intimidated by your posturing.

  220. 220
    sparky says:

    those of you defending Clinton re: Florida. you should really take a step back and look at the arguments you are advancing. i have no way of knowing whether you actually believe them, but i can say that they sure look disingenuous. consider whether you are winning people over with arguments that appear disingenuous. an argument from semantics is not an argument that will win anyone over, IMO.

  221. 221
    Jen says:

    She didn’t say anything about how those delegations would have been selected.

    And it what way would they be selected? Are they going to co-opt the “witch test” from Monty Python? Paper, rock, scissors? If she meant something innocuous, uh, wouldn’t she have gone to some pains to point that out…?

  222. 222
    ThymeZone says:

    But I get called a “Hillshill” cuz I criticize Obama.

    Whatever you criticize here, a few people around here are going to try to make it into something pathological.

    Israel pisses you off? You’re an anti-semite.

    Hillary pisses you off? CDS.

    Pentagon makes you pissy? You hate the military.

    Don’t like the war in Iraq? You support terrorism.

    These “ideas” all spring from the same ugly place. Some of us are getting a little tired of them.

  223. 223
    demimondian says:

    sparky, I don’t care about winning people over. I’m not arguing in front of a jury, and I’m not presenting a risky business plan. I’m evaluating a candidate, nothing more. If you took me to be advancing a candidate, please forgive me for misleading you.

  224. 224
    Jen says:

    You started off here as a Paultard. That’s why I suspected you. Look like you still are. Or have you switched to the newest fan phase?

    WTF is wrong with you?? I have never said the first rude thing to you and you have hated me for no reason. I have never been a Paultard. I am a lifelong Democrat. I liked having Paul around in the Republican race because I am a lifelong Democrat. I was really excited to see his blimp because that was some weird shit. Is that what you’re talking about????

  225. 225
    demimondian says:

    Jen, I’ve already answered that. I predict that Florida and Michigan will hold caucuses, _just like the other states with meaningless primaries do_. This is a known and solved problem; there’s no new process here.

    I’d like to say that I’m sorry to have taken away a talking point, but that would be a lie. I take great pleasure in blowing up mistaken talking points — and that what this one is.

  226. 226
    ThymeZone says:

    I’m not intimidated by your posturing.

    Fuck you, buddy. I have had it with your sliming of people who disagree with you, your accusations of “hatred” and whatever shit you can pull out of your ass.

    You should know by now that you can’t win a flame war with me, and I am here to tell you, every time you pull that crap in my presence I am going to get in your face. I did it to Darrell for two years and by comparison you are no challenge to me whatever.

    I am calling you on it every time, without fail, and you will then spend the rest of the thread boxing with me. If that’s what you want, then go ahead, keep it up.

  227. 227
    demimondian says:

    TZ, you just keep boxing with me, then.

  228. 228
    Jen says:

    Demi, if I were at all convinced that you had blown up a mistaken talking point, I would congratulate you. I think this is an intact talking point. I think if Hillary meant that states should hold a meaningless primary in which they count the votes, then later hold a caucus and that actually the caucus is the way the delegates would be chosen, she would have said so.

  229. 229
    myiq2xu says:

    Y’all fight amongst yourselves.

    I’m gonna have some pie.

  230. 230
    wasabi gasp says:

    I was really excited to see his blimp because that was some weird shit.

    a girl

  231. 231

    And it what way would they be selected? Are they going to co-opt the “witch test” from Monty Python? Paper, rock, scissors? If she meant something innocuous, uh, wouldn’t she have gone to some pains to point that out…?

    I’m sure it is all explained on wikipedia in a way that you can understand . . . paultard.

  232. 232
    Jen says:

    Ha, that blimp got me a hat-tip on the front page of Sadly, No, they didn’t think I was a Paultard or a boy, either.

  233. 233

    Jen — one word: blimp

  234. 234
    Tractarian says:

    Welcome to Hillaryworld, where evidence that Obama plays the race card is a list of ways the Clintons have played the race card.

    And evidence that Hillary doesn’t want FL and MI to count is a statement saying she wants FL and MI to count.

    Vote for Hillary – she transcends honesty.

  235. 235
    Jen says:

    paultard.

    You know what, unless you’re going to link to something I’ve said that makes you think I’m a paultard or a troll or whatever, I am just fucking done with you. I have always tried to engage people online with just as much civility as I would engage them in real life. I will tease, and snark, and I will be passionate at times, but I do not stoop to low blows and insults and needless rudeness, because there’s too much of that on the internet and I wasn’t raised that way. And I have never been rude or insulting to you, and you can go ahead and try to link to something I’ve said to you that was while you’re looking for my Paultard statements. So please understand the context of all this when I say

    Fuck.
    You.

  236. 236
    wasabi gasp says:

    Welcome to Hillaryworld, where evidence that Obama plays the race card is a list of ways the Clintons have played the race card.

    That is blimpalicious.

  237. 237
    Jen says:

    I think I will add a link, after all.

    75 commenters at Sadly No and a bunch over here at BJ and you’re the only dumb-ass that thinks because I saw his blimp, that I am a Paultard. I guess everyone who was out to lunch in Raleigh on that day is a paultard.

  238. 238
    myiq2xu says:

    Fuck.
    You.

    Oh c’mon Jen, don’t mince words – tell us what you really think!

  239. 239

    I’m gonna have some pie

    Oh, I haven’t visited Jeffy in a while. Is he still alive?

    a girl

    I was wrong wasabi, and I knw it now in this thread, moreso than any other.

    Ha, that blimp got me a hat-tip on the front page of Sadly, No,

    That whore shit doesn’t play well these days.

  240. 240
    myiq2xu says:

    Vote for Hillary – she transcends honesty.

    After the food-fight, somebody has to come in and lick the goop off the floor.

  241. 241

    sorry, I meant blogshore shit, sorry

  242. 242
    Neal says:

    myiq2xu, can I join you for some pie?

    I’ll ride my pony over to your place.

    Oh, and

    Israel pisses you off? You’re an anti-semite.

    Hillary pisses you off? CDS.

    Pentagon makes you pissy? You hate the military.

    Don’t like the war in Iraq? You support terrorism.

    These “ideas” all spring from the same ugly place. Some of us are getting a little tired of them.

    Amen, TZ.

  243. 243
    Jen says:

    Sadly, No, isn’t my fucking blog, inco. I think you’re supposed to blogwhore your own blog. I linked to it so you could see that I am not a Paultard because I saw his blimp, which a reasonable person would consider self-evident. So, again, Fuck.. You.

  244. 244
    John S. says:

    I predict that Florida and Michigan will hold caucuses

    That’s a bad prediction.

    I don’t think most of my fellow Floridians even know what a ‘caucus’ is (that stuff in a tube that plumbers use?), let alone be gearing up to have one. As for next election, who knows. I suppose anything is possible.

  245. 245
    wasabi gasp says:

    That whore shit doesn’t play well these days.

    Hey! Now that’s just crazy talk.

  246. 246

    Jen, it shows that you simply seek approval from others, nothing more.

    If you continue to use such foul language in your posts, I will be forced to ignore you.

  247. 247
  248. 248
    John Cole says:

    I say we all just tone it down a notch. Not sure why tempers are flaring. The GOP is imploding.

  249. 249
    myiq2xu says:

    myiq2xu, can I join you for some pie?

    I’ll ride my pony over to your place.

    You’re welcome but not your . . . you know.

    “They” are old now. Thinnnnnnnnn even.

  250. 250
    ThymeZone says:

    Not sure why tempers are flaring. The GOP is imploding.

    The point is well taken. I shall be well behaved for the rest of the evening.

  251. 251

    I promise not to say ‘fuck you’ John.

    Here and now. No more “fuck you” in any of my comments.

  252. 252
    socraticsilence says:

    Well, it worked in SC, didn’t it?

    Good, point, I mean sure the “backlash” is pretty much the only reason Hilary’s still in this thing (a loss in NH and NV flips, instead of just giving Barack more delegates, and SC and that would have been 4 straight).

  253. 253
    myiq2xu says:

    I say we all just tone it down a notch. Not sure why tempers are flaring. The GOP is imploding.

    Pie for everybody!

  254. 254
    ThymeZone says:

    They say that Rudy will endorse McCain tomorrow.

    What about the evangelicals? Will McCain partner up with Hucksterbee as his running mate, and try to hold the coalition of the insane together?

  255. 255

    It’s not even fun to check jeffy’s blog.

    Darleen, it the worst, IMHO.

  256. 256
    Tom in Texas says:

    TZ:

    A McCain/Huckabee is the dream ticket — independents would run screaming from teh Huckster, thereby nullifying any advantage McCain has towards the center. Plus the business cons would be so pissed they may even vote for Hillary.

  257. 257
    myiq2xu says:

    From Digby:

    Silly Voters

    Regardless of whether you like Clinton or Obama, does anyone think it’s a good idea for MSNBC to be rude, snide and dismissive about more than a million and a half Democratic voters in Florida (more than double the turnout from 2004)? Isn’t there a little unpleasant history of votes not counting down there?

    Now I realize that there are no delegates being awarded and maybe there won’t be at the convention either. There are people talking about holding a new caucus later in the process so they do a mulligan in the state. And I also know that many people think Clinton is running some sort of scam and that she’ll unfairly try to seat her delegates and that it’s inappropriate for her to have a rally in Florida to celebrate “winning” etc, etc. Fine. That’s all party politics and it’s not what I’m talking about. It will be worked out one way or the other.

    My point is that actual human beings voted today. If it is inappropriate for Clinton to declare victory it’s also damned inappropriate for every gasbag on television to say that all these votes are completely meaningless. They may not add to the delegate count, but they were cast in good faith by American citizens and they should be treated with respect by these jackasses.

    I have no idea how it would have come out with a full presidential campaign in the state — probably differently in a dozen different ways — but that doesn’t mean the media are allowed to act as if the people’s vote isn’t worth taking seriously, even as they explain why there are no delegates being awarded.

    I understand why the Obama campaign is saying that it was only Clinton’s name recognition that propelled her higher vote tally. They may certainly be right about that. This is politics and it’s fair for them to make that charge. But the Florida Democratic party actually worked to get their people out to the polls even if there wasn’t a presidential campaign down there and they deserve at least a little bit of credit for getting so many people out under those circumstances. It’s not the news media’s job to make a judgment about whether they were right to do so. I have been voting for presidential primary candidates for decades where there was no primary campaign run in my state and while my vote may not have been decisive, I don’t recall the news media derisively characterizing the primary voters of California as being dupes and fools for bothering to cast a vote in a state that wasn’t being contested.

    The contempt these elites hold for the people of this country is unparalleled. They are smirking and laughing and practically rolling their eyes, even as they report that more than a million Florida citizens cast their votes today. Who do they think they are?

    What she said

  258. 258

    Jen, you are just a babe. I’m sorry that I have been so hard on you.

    Get used to it.

  259. 259
    John S. says:

    But the Florida Democratic party actually worked to get their people out to the polls even if there wasn’t a presidential campaign down there and they deserve at least a little bit of credit for getting so many people out under those circumstances.

    Sorry, but she is wrong here.

    The Florida Democratic party didn’t do shit to get people out to the polls. I didn’t get one piece of mail, phone call – NOTHING. People came out to vote because we had a huge property tax amendment. Period.

  260. 260
    crw says:

    Good, point, I mean sure the “backlash” is pretty much the only reason Hilary’s still in this thing (a loss in NH and NV flips, instead of just giving Barack more delegates, and SC and that would have been 4 straight).

    Can’t tell if you’re being sarcastic. Anyway, don’t forget Hillary was always predicted to win NH and NV until the media hopped on the Unity Pony. Sure, I’ll grant NH was a squeaker and the misogynist meme probably helped her there. But I highly doubt NV was really that close, despite the media trying to play up the horse race.

    Really, Obama’s doing the only thing he can do. He needed an absolutely crushing victory in SC to get his mojo back and he got it. And he needs to play up Hillary’s negatives and the Billary angle as much as possible to eat away her support for SDT. So of course they’re playing politics and spinning. It’s not bad. But pretending Obama has transcended all that is just offensively silly.

  261. 261
    demimondian says:

    Jen, I don’t think so. I think that you’ll see within a few days the walk back to “wait a second — you guys read more into my statement than I said.”

    And, in fact, she’ll be entirely correct.

  262. 262
    ThymeZone says:

    My point is that actual human beings voted today

    That entire rant is moot, myiq. They voted in a sham.

    Showing phony “respect for the voters” …how? By trying to pretend that it wasn’t a sham? What about the voters who stayed home and … rationally … didn’t participate in the sham? Or, the “protest” or whatever you want to call it? In any case, having the party decertify the thing and then having a candidate go in there and act like she is above her own party, as if the thing is about her … bah.

    Shameless act of phony theatrics … exactly the kind of crap we are all so f…. er, I mean, darned … tired of.

  263. 263
    DougJ says:

    Even though you think I’m a guy when actually I am a reasonably attractive womangirl, thanks for saying this anyway.

    That proves it. Only a male poster would claim that.

    I think you’re the same person as Stormy.

  264. 264
    Jake says:

    The better question is, why is the media letting her get a free pass on this shitty behavior? Don’t they have one fucking person with a pair or a brain to challenge it?

    No. SA2SQ Vol. XXL

    The part of the media in charge of reporting was bought out by the part that covers entertainment and gossip. Besides, do you have any idea how much it costs to pay someone who has an in-depth understanding of American politics and can write about it in a way that will hold the attention of the average reader?

    It’s much cheaper better to get a kid fresh out of J-school, that way even if he does get something good, he can’t do shit if we edit the hell out of his story to make room for 1,000 words about Mitt Romney’s smile or Hillary’s décolletage. Just the other day we trashed a story on how the nation’s declining education system is leading to a less informed public, but we needed to make room for a three part series on a missing blonde.

    (Yes, I’m ranting I’ll stop now, nothing to see here, move along.)

  265. 265
    demimondian says:

    TZ’s right, myiq. Today’s beauty contest was a sham, and no more. Just like ours will be in a couple of weeks (who, me? Bitter? What would make you think that?) Florida and Michigan will have to pick their delegates a different way.

  266. 266
    Tom in Texas says:

    demi:

    Even assuming that there were no ulterior motives on Hillary’s part, her actions were still incredibly tone deaf politically. How can someone so smart say something so stupid?
    If she wanted a caucus she should have pushed for one months ago, or some other time than the night of the freakin primary. It reeks of opportunism, and it’s a bad move politically, much like the Jesse Jackson comments were.

  267. 267
    John S. says:

    They voted in a sham.

    Only part of my vote today was a sham.

    There was a very real part that was counted that means I can double my homestead exemption to $50,000 and transport up to $500,000 of the Save-Our-Homes benefit to my next house.

  268. 268
    ThymeZone says:

    Only a male poster tranny would claim that.

    I love his outfit, though.

  269. 269
    myiq2xu says:

    Showing phony “respect for the voters” …how? By trying to pretend that it wasn’t a sham? What about the voters who stayed home and … rationally … didn’t participate in the sham?

    Uh . . .

    more than a million and a half Democratic voters in Florida (more than double the turnout from 2004)?

    I guess only the Hillary voters bothered to vote, even though there were other things on the ballot.

    All of the alleged no-show voters were of course would-be Obama voters who were tricked into their votes not counting.

    Just like the ones for Hillary don’t count.

  270. 270
    demimondian says:

    Just for clarity, I certainly think that there were ulterior motives for her speech. I just don’t think that they were as transparent as the press has made them out to be.

    As to tone deaf…I don’t know.If she were nor running as the candidate of opportunism and barnum and bailey hokum, then, yes, I’d agree that the stunt was tone deaf. As it is, though, I can’t see how this does any harm to her image among those who see her as a scheming Rasputin, whether they think that’s a good thing or a bad thing.

    Now, the Jackson stuff? That was stupid and tone deaf. Then again…that’s Bill. He’s always been less subtle than she is.

  271. 271
    John S. says:

    I repeat, there will be no caucus in Florida:

    Although the DNC has said it will not recognize delegates from Florida, the Florida Democratic Party plans to appeal to the eventual Democratic nominee for President to be seated at the Convention. While there are no guarantees that this will happen, the Party will continue the delegate selection process to elect the actual delegates to the Democratic National Convention and will use the results of the January 29th Presidential Preference Primary to determine the apportionment of those delegates.

    Seems like the fix was in from the beginning.

  272. 272
    Tom in Texas says:

    Understood — I tried not to imply that you thought her motives were pure, though I could have been more explicit.

  273. 273
    demimondian says:

    John S. — The Florida democratic party will lose this battle; it has to do so for party unity. I think that the pundits are wrong here.

    The only case in which the delegates will be seated is if they don’t matter, in which case the highest delegate-count candidate not on the ticket will move for their seating for the purpose of voting for the ticket.

  274. 274
    myiq2xu says:

    I’m sorry, but a million and a half votes isn’t a “sham” even if it’s just a “beauty contest.”

    Also, for everyone who says we need to elect Obama because he’s the reason everyone is turning out to vote Democratic -Hillary got more votes than the entire Democratic field got last time.

    She didn’t campaign in Florida, and neither did Obama, but the people in Florida saw the SC news just like we did. They were both on the ballot, unlike Michigan.

    Even if the delegates don’t count, SHE FUCKING WON!

    HRC got 50% of the votes and some people act like it was just a fluke or something. That’s over 856,000 votes.

    If Obama won he would be singing a different tune.

  275. 275
    tBone says:

    Y’all fight amongst yourselves.

    I’m gonna have some pie.

    Jesus. What’s this blog coming to when trolls are voluntarily liking pie?

  276. 276
    ThymeZone says:

    It doesn’t matter how many voters “voted”, noiq.

    There was no competing campaign, no organizations working on behalf of candidates competing in a fair contest. There was no Dem debate there aimed at FL voters.

    The vote therefore doesn’t mean anything much. To suggest that one candidate winked at the process and then wants to claim the outcome as a “victory” is a bit of an insult to our limited but indomitable intelligence.

  277. 277
    ThymeZone says:

    The New York senator, fresh off her lopsided loss to Barack Obama in last weekend’s South Carolina primary, arranged a rally in the state as the polls were closing, an evident attempt to gain campaign momentum.

    She and Obama collide next week in a coast-to-coast competition for delegates across 22 states.

    “I am convinced that with this resounding vote, with the millions of Americans who will vote next Tuesday, we will send a clear message that America is back and we will take charge of our destiny once again,” she said to a boisterous crowd.

    Last year, the national party stripped Florida of its delegates as punishment for moving its primary ahead of Feb. 5 and the candidates pledged to bypass the state. At stake Tuesday were 185 delegates.

    Still, Clinton winked at that pledge, holding two closed fundraisers in recent days and scheduling a rally with supporters after the polls closed in Florida.

    That’s the well known Clinton-hating website, Yahoo.

  278. 278
    myiq2xu says:

    There was no competing campaign, no organizations working on behalf of candidates competing in a fair contest. There was no Dem debate there aimed at FL voters.

    Wow, and people still turned out in record numbers. maybe they’re onto something.

    The vote therefore doesn’t mean anything much. To suggest that one candidate winked at the process and then wants to claim the outcome as a “victory” is a bit of an insult to our limited but indomitable intelligence.

    Sour grapes make bitter whine.

  279. 279
    demimondian says:

    Yeah, well, Yahoo has a bunch of problems with reality right now.

  280. 280
    myiq2xu says:

    Still, Clinton winked at that pledge, holding two closed fundraisers in recent days and scheduling a rally with supporters after the polls closed in Florida.

    Was it the “closed fundraisers” or the rally after the polls closed that clinched it?

    Maybe it was “the snub.”

  281. 281
    DougJ says:

    It’s much cheaper better to get a kid fresh out of J-school, that way even if he does get something good, he can’t do shit if we edit the hell out of his story to make room for 1,000 words about Mitt Romney’s smile or Hillary’s décolletage.

    That’s really not the problem though. The problem is that “we” pay David Broder, Howard Fineman, and Maureen Dowd to write about how Clintons “trashed the place”, how the primary is like a high-school talent contest, and how Al Gore wears earth tones.

    These kids just out of J-school are actually the back bone of our media. The old farts with their “in depth understanding” of our political system are the cancer that is eating away at it.

    It’s been said a million times that a fish rots from the head, but when it comes to our media, it really is true.

  282. 282
    ThymeZone says:

    What is the matter with you? Are you suggesting that the story is not factually correct?

  283. 283
    ThymeZone says:

    Maybe it was “the snub.”

    Maybe you’ve given up all pretense of wanting to be taken seriously?

  284. 284
    Asti says:

    Wow, and people still turned out in record numbers. maybe they’re onto something.

    Apparently you’re an idiot. The large amount was due to teh fact that people showed up to vote on a homesteading issue.

  285. 285
    demimondian says:

    I am suggesting the Yahoo has over-interpreted the facts. Trusting Yahoo to interpret your facts is like expecting Microsoft to tell the whole truth about an advertising deal: you’ll never go broke betting against that position.

  286. 286
    crw says:

    I repeat, there will be no caucus in Florida:

    You got that right. Florida will host an innovative “butterfly caucus,” brought to you by the same people who gave you endless recounts in 2000.

  287. 287
    ThymeZone says:

    It’s been said a million times that a fish rots from the head, but when it comes to our media, it really is true.

    Well on that note, I must say fin.

  288. 288
    myiq2xu says:

    Apparently you’re an idiot. The large amount was due to teh fact that people showed up to vote on a homesteading issue.

    I recognize snark when I see it, unlike some who call names.

  289. 289
    demimondian says:

    It’s more complicated that that, DougJ. Yes, Fineman and Dowd and Broder are smarmy, smirking, pseudointellectual suits. Yes, they do a lot of harm to reportage from and in the Village.

    However…the Washington press corps has always had a strong tendency towards radical lapdoggery. The alleged independence of the press during Watergate was more a reflection of the Post’s desperation than anything else.

  290. 290
    ThymeZone says:

    I am suggesting the Yahoo has over-interpreted the facts.

    Really? Yahoo simply used its wire service, Associated Press. They don’t write news stories.

    And there are dozens of versions of the story out there. Maybe you can find one that fits your point of view?

  291. 291
    DougJ says:

    I think a lot of the debate over the Clintons’ tactics is misplaced in a way. The Clintons are clearly willing to fight dirtier than othe Democrats are. I know the Bob Somersbies of the world argue otherwise, but the preponderance of evidence is clearly against them.

    The Clintons are the only Democrats who are willing to fight as dirty as Republicans do. Some people think it’s a bad thing, some think it’s a good thing.

  292. 292
    myiq2xu says:

    Maybe you’ve given up all pretense of wanting to be taken seriously?

    Taken seriously like Doughy Pantload and Bill Kristol?

    I should hope not!

  293. 293
    demimondian says:

    Florida will host an innovative “butterfly caucus,”

    Ironically, the precinct in Boca Raton where the first real problems showed up is the one in which I’d cast my ballot only eight years earlier.

    Let’s just say that I was less than stunned by the confused voters there. I was confused by the ballot in 92, and it had only gotten more and more complicated over time.

  294. 294
    Asti says:

    I recognize snark when I see it, unlike some who call names.

    Oh, you think what you were doing was snark? Who in the hell do you think you’re fooling? Yourself, obviously.

  295. 295
    ThymeZone says:

    some think it’s a good thing.

    Some think it’s a good thing when Karl Rove does it.

    Some thing it’s a bad thing no matter who does it.

    Some are just sick to death of it.

    You strike me as a person who would calculate it and triangulate it for its possible benefit to you. Which is no particular knock on you, but I can tell you, I am a member of the latter group that I mentioned, and I want no part of it.

    I don’t like Ends Justify Means politics because it leads to Ends Justify Means policy and government (like the one we have now).

  296. 296
    DougJ says:

    Demi: I think it’s even more complicated in a way. It’s not what they report, it’s what they emphasize. A lot of the bad Bush admin stuff was reported on, but it wasn’t made into a Lewinsky proportions story because the Broders and Finemans of the world didn’t harp on it.

    The secret prisons, the torture, the signing statements, the wiretapping, the politicization of the bureaucracy — all of that stuff was reported on extensively by members of the Washington press, in many cases by the Post or Times themselves (the ultimate embodiments of the dead tree portion of the DC press).

    The trouble is the Broders, Brookses, Matthews, Dowds, Finemans, and Friedmans of the world didn’t give a shit about any of it.

    Don’t get me wrong — the DC press fucked up WMD, was less than aggressive in its reporting on the DOJ and the yellow cake lies and a host of other things, and in some cases completely disgraced itself with its craven attitude (Elizabeth Bumiller). But I think a lot of that was standard issue mediocrity.

    The real Villagers are way beyond standard issue mediocrity. They aren’t mediocre at all — they’re truly brilliant at destroying our discourse.

  297. 297
    Asti says:

    Let’s just say that I was less than stunned by the confused voters there. I was confused by the ballot in 92, and it had only gotten more and more complicated over time.

    It keeps the po fokes and unejuckatid from voting for someone who might actually give a shit about them.

  298. 298
    ThymeZone says:

    I close with this, now that you have aggravated me into staying up way too late ….

    David Frost: Why did you call your (early congressional campaign) opponent a communist?

    Richard Nixon: Well, you have to win.

  299. 299
    DougJ says:

    You strike me as a person who would calculate it and triangulate it for its possible benefit to you.

    I would like to be but actually I’m not. I can’t stomach the Clinton tactics, as much as I would like to.

  300. 300
    ThymeZone says:

    I would like to be but actually I’m not. I can’t stomach the Clinton tactics, as much as I would like to.

    Then I must withdraw my blast.

    Today’s winning number is:

    456 832 3879

  301. 301
    demimondian says:

    Do you really think that Broder et al have that much power? I know that they think they do, and I know that some of the denizens of the Washington cocktail party circuit believe that they do, but I think that they’re wrong.

    I despise them, but mostly because I think that they self-righteousness self-indulgence Pharisees, not because I think they have any real, significant power to influence opinion.

  302. 302
    myiq2xu says:

    Oh, you think what you were doing was snark? Who in the hell do you think you’re fooling? Yourself, obviously.

    There was no competing campaign, no organizations working on behalf of candidates competing in a fair contest. There was no Dem debate there aimed at FL voters.

    Wow, and people still turned out in record numbers. maybe they’re onto something.

    I guess you’re so smart the “no campaigning = record turnout” thing was too lowbrow for you.

    I’m sure you consider yourself very witty. You’re half right. For your sake I hope you’re rich or good looking.

  303. 303
    Asti says:

    Today’s winning number is:

    456 832 3879

    The International Inbound area code? Lemme guess, a Saudi prince? I wonder, if Hillary wins, will she kiss Saudi rings? Hmmm, thanks TZ, you got me asking an interesting question.

  304. 304
    DougJ says:

    Do you really think that Broder et al have that much power?

    Yes, I do. They’re the reason Bush was elected in 2000. They’re not enough to swing a less close election but if it’s close they can swing it.

    Now, their power can be used against them. They’re hated by much of the public and I expect Hillary to use that to her advantage by spinning it as her, the champion of middle America, against the overpaid gasbags of DC. It’s a great strategy because (1) it’s mostly true and (2) the Villagers won’t be able to stop attacking her even when the realize the attacks only make her stronger.

    It’s a great jujitsu move to turn the media’s hatred of her against them in a way that benefits her. And I think the Clintons probably have this all mapped out for the general. It doesn’t work as well in the primary because their love of Obama (who is genuinely accomplished and well-versed on issues, even if not as much as she is) isn’t anywhere near as ludicrous as their support for McCain (who is a well-meaning idiot) will be.

  305. 305
    Asti says:

    Do you really think that Broder et al have that much power? I know that they think they do, and I know that some of the denizens of the Washington cocktail party circuit believe that they do, but I think that they’re wrong.

    I despise them, but mostly because I think that they self-righteousness self-indulgence Pharisees, not because I think they have any real, significant power to influence opinion.

    I think Letterman televising the word “Dumbass” and showing Bush’s face carries MUCH more weight personally, especially for people who’ve never even heard of Broder; et al.

  306. 306
    Asti says:

    I guess you’re so smart the “no campaigning = record turnout” thing was too lowbrow for you.

    I’m sure you consider yourself very witty. You’re half right. For your sake I hope you’re rich or good looking.

    Coming from someone who thinks their IQ is 2x mine, I take that to be a tremendous compliment. Thanks!

    You’re not called “noiq” for nothing.

    Oh, and, what does money or looks have to do with anything? I’m not so fake as to think those things matter; but apparently you do.

  307. 307
    tBone says:

    Do you really think that Broder et al have that much power?

    They’re the progenitors and purveyors of Beltway “conventional wisdom.” Think of them as a small clump of (yellow) snow that begins rolling downhill and eventually becomes a giant ball of Known Truth.

  308. 308
    myiq2xu says:

    You’re not called “noiq” for nothing.

    Wow, you sure cut me to the quick with that one.

    But I can’t play anymore, I must go, so you’ll have to keep playing with yourself.

  309. 309
    Asti says:

    They’re the progenitors and purveyors of Beltway “conventional wisdom.” Think of them as a small clump of (yellow) snow that begins rolling downhill and eventually becomes a giant ball of Known Truth.

    Conventional wisdom lies. Always has, always will. Conventional wisdom creates more problems than it solves. Life would be so much less complicated without Conventional Wisdom. Just like a young man who wants to have sex is told he should make a lifetime commitment to a wife and never be attracted to anyone else “til death do us part”, people wanting to make a political choice seem to think they need others to tell them what to believe about a candidate, not their own eyes.

  310. 310
    Asti says:

    But I can’t play anymore, I must go, so you’ll have to keep playing with yourself.

    When men admit they do it, it’s a shameful thing. When women admit they do it, it’s a fantasy. I am certainly not the former. ;)

  311. 311
    wasabi gasp says:

    Wanna see a blimp?

  312. 312
    John S. says:

    She didn’t campaign in Florida, and neither did Obama, but the people in Florida saw the SC news just like we did.

    I think you overestimate the good people of Florida, most of whom are not political junkies and do not read the news.

    If even 15% of the people that voted for Clinton did so because of her name (FYI: the movie The Distinguished Gentleman where Eddie Murphy won an election based on name recognition took place in Florida), then her win isn’t magnificent in the slightest.

    I for one would have enjoyed seeing the Democrats campaign here and show the voters who they are. Unfortunately, that didn’t happen and we can’t turn back time to change it. The results are invalid because they were invalidated before any of us even cast a ballot.

  313. 313
    TheFountainHead says:

    Oh my, Edwards is dropping out. That’s real surprise there folks. I really thought he’d stick it out…

    BTW, WTB New Thread.

  314. 314
    myiq2xu says:

    If even 15% of the people that voted for Clinton did so because of her name (FYI: the movie The Distinguished Gentleman where Eddie Murphy won an election based on name recognition took place in Florida), then her win isn’t magnificent in the slightest.

    Let me make this easy – Hollywood IS NOT real

    Jeebus Jumped-up Christ in a handcar

  315. 315
    John S. says:

    Let me make this easy – Hollywood IS NOT real

    No shit, Sherlock.

    Fiction is generally a reflection of reality to some degree. The point I was trying to make is that in a political vacuum, Clinton has a huge advantage over Obama. The concept of anme recognition having an impact in an election is not a Hollywood fantasy. Perhaps you could understand that if you got over your ODS.

    I mean seriously, did he run over your cat or something?

  316. 316
    libarbarian says:

    AMERICAS MAYOR….AMERICAS MAYOR….AMERICAS MAYOR….AMERICAS MAYOR….AMERICAS MAYOR….AMERICAS MAYOR….AMERICAS MAYOR….AMERICAS MAYOR….AMERICAS MAYOR….AMERICAS MAYOR….AMERICAS MAYOR….AMERICAS MAYOR….AMERICAS MAYOR….AMERICAS MAYOR….AMERICAS MAYOR….

    Good bye!!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AH47iuMTuC8

Comments are closed.