Hollow Man

Bob Kerrery apologizes for his transparently phony attempted smear of Obama:

Dear Barack,

I want to sincerely apologize for the remarks I made on Sunday in Council Bluffs, Iowa, after an event at which I endorsed Senator Hillary Clinton’s Presidential candidacy. I answered a question about your qualifications to be President in a way that has been interpreted as a backhanded insult of you. I assure you I meant to do just the opposite.

After you and I met during your primary campaign for the Senate, I wrote a public letter in which I said that that you were among the two or three most talented people I have ever met in politics. Nothing in your performance in the Senate or your campaign for the Presidency has altered that view.

I have said a lot of stupid things. I have said a lot of things that were interpreted incorrectly. I have said a lot of things I meant as a compliment but were perceived as an insult. I understand that this can happen.

But if ANYONE thinks this was an accident, or that this was anything other than more bilge coming from the Clinton camp, I got a bridge to sell you. Lemme guess, you think it was wholly accidental he chose the phrase ‘Islamic Manchurian candidate,’ too.

This is why people like me are instinctively repulsed by Hillary. If you still can not figure it out, go watch this video (via ObWi, where the reactions were spot on):

Pay special attention to Mark Penn. It is almost as if the mouse will slip out of your hand from the slime oozing from Penn. It is so clear what he is doing, he can not even keep a straight face while he is talking. Joe Trippi’s reaction is priceless- that is how normal human beings react to scumbags like Penn.

This Kerrey crap is just more of the same- it is not an accident this sort of rubbish keeps bubbling up from the Clinton crew. As much as I have tried to avoid being tarred as a Clinton hater, and as much as I have really, really tried to give her a fair shot, I think who you surround yourself with says a lot about you (Rumsfeld, Cheney, Addington, anyone?). I have had enough Rovian bullshit for one lifetime. Clinton has got to go.






114 replies
  1. 1
    srv says:

    I think who you surround yourself with says a lot about you

    So you’re saying you didn’t know much about Rove, Elliot Abrams, John Bolton, Perle, Cheney during the 2000 campaign or you’ve just decided this time to apply standards?

  2. 2
    Napoleon says:

    I flipped on Hardball when this segment was playing, after the three were introduced, and I recognized Penn and automatically assumed that the other 2 were Trippi and Axelrod, but not having seen them before wasn’t sure which was which, and their reactions to Penn’s bs really made it hard to tell (Trippi actually seemed more pissed then Axelrod, and it wasn’t even about Trippi’s candidate). It wasn’t until nearly the end before I figured it out. Trippi made me a huge fan of his with his reaction. Good for him to call Penn out like he did.

  3. 3
    MBL says:

    The one– ONE– good thing about Hillary becoming President that I can think of right now is that the Republicans will immediately work to repeal every single expansion of executive power that they’ve put in place under Bush. And, the Democrats being Democrats, it will WORK despite there only being about four Republicans being left in Congress.

    That said, I’ll still vote for her over any of the current Republican candidates.

  4. 4
    Psycheout says:

    It would have been better if Kerrey had begun his letter with “Dear Osama.”

  5. 5
    cleek says:

    small lies in the service of a better future is the antithesis of anti-fascist sentiment [1], and therefore you should applaud Hillary’s employees for doing their best to ensure we have the best future we can have: a Hillary Future.

    1. J. Goldberg, Liberal Fascism (Doubleday, 2007), pp 237-241.

  6. 6
    Zifnab says:

    This Kerrey crap is just more of the same- it is not an accident this sort of rubbish keeps bubbling up from the Clinton crew. As much as I have tried to avoid being tarred as a Clinton hater, and as much as I have really, really tried to give her a fair shot, I think who you surround yourself with says a lot about you (Rumsfeld, Cheney, Addington, anyone?). I have had enough Rovian bullshit for one lifetime. Clinton has got to go.

    Cheers to that. No one (reasonable) will begrudge you for hating on Hillary because she’s got all the earmarks of Bush redux.

    Bets the hell out of “I’m going with my gut” politics that made America pick President “I’d like to have a Beer With” two times in a row.

  7. 7
    Jen says:

    Cleek, I think that Balloon Juice, December 20, at 11:34 a.m., may be the most prestigious citation that particular publication will ever receive.

    If it took him 4 pages to say that, I am beginning to understand why Liberal=Fascism could fill over 400…

  8. 8

    ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

    It’s hard to take you seriously on this point considering you voted for Bush twice.

  9. 9
    cleek says:

    Jen,
    Citations presented here may not be accurate at the date of publication. While expected on the web, it is typical of books, which often seek to deceive by using endnotes as claims of authority where no authority exists [2].

    2. J. Goldberg, Liberal Fascism (Doubleday, 2007), p356.

  10. 10
    TheFountainHead says:

    I had been looking for this video, but hadn’t found it, thanks. I don’t know how anyone can watch Penn, or Hillary herself, for that matter, and not feel like they’re being conned.

  11. 11
    IanY77 says:

    Nothing much left to say but: Yep.

    Sorry, I wish I could add something deeper.

  12. 12
    Dreggas says:

    Agreed John, these attacks are complete and utter bs, glad more people are seeing that and clinton is getting hit for it.

  13. 13
  14. 14
    Tim F. says:

    Blech. Clintons were bad enough before Bush won twice and made everyone think they need a little Rove to win. Some peevish part of me wants president Hillary just so that the oppressed permanent victims on the right can try being actual oppressed victims for a change, but the rest roots for Obama.

  15. 15
    KC says:

    I agree, this is pretty deplorable. That said, is Obama ready for when the Republicans do it? When they spend millions of dollars to convince voters he is an illegal alien-license-granting, crack smoking, Islamic homosexual? Will he be offering platitudes or will he be willing fight back? That’s my big question. I’ll be voting for the Democrat pretty much no matter what, but his platitudes about bipartisanship make me a little worried. When the GOP sees an opportunity, they always take it, especially when their opponents are attempting to be respectable.

  16. 16
    bdr says:

    Mandingo! It’s coming.

  17. 17
    Zifnab says:

    I agree, this is pretty deplorable. That said, is Obama ready for when the Republicans do it? When they spend millions of dollars to convince voters he is an illegal alien-license-granting, crack smoking, Islamic homosexual? Will he be offering platitudes or will he be willing fight back?

    He seems to be handling Clinton fairly well. I think that whole admission to doing coke when he was in High School in the autobiography went a long way towards defusing the “OMG! He Does Drugs!” bomb into an “old news” dud.

    As the Republicans will only get more wide-eyed and unbelievable the further we get into the general election, with Bill O’Rielly filling a punch bowl of spittle telling us we’re about to elect Osama Bin Laden and Rush Limbaugh turning “Barak The Magic Negro” into a Broadway play, Barak only needs to handle the Republican Nominee like he handles Clinton.

    I can already see the bumper stickers. “Barak Obama: Smart. Sane. American.”

  18. 18
    OniHanzo says:

    It’s hard to take you seriously on this point considering you voted for Bush twice.

    One’s opinion of a politician, especially the President, cannot be changed after one has voted for him. Loyalty is immutable the minute you’ve turned in your ballot.

    This I command!

  19. 19

    I am not a Hillary hater; she’s my second choice after Edwards and I think she’d be a good president. That being said, I have to convey that my college student daughter, who is a pretty good judge of people, has the same “instinctive dislike” for Hillary, based on what she’s seen in debates and on news shows. She says Hillary is mean and a fake. I don’t necessarily agree, but I do understand that an instinctive dislike is not necessarily irrational.

    However, what Kerrey did was unconscionable. Whatever I think about the good job Hillary would do as President, I am very disappointed at what her campaign has been doing lately.

  20. 20
    Mike P says:

    I don’t understand why people keep assuming that Obama won’t fight back. Sure, his message is about coming together, but I think people are being naive (to use Hillary Clinton’s favorite term) is they think this guy, who was both a community organizer in Chicago and an attorney, doesn’t know how to fight back. I call B.S.

  21. 21
    Teak111 says:

    Is there anybody to vote for then, anybody at all, I’ll take GOP or Dem. I avoid Hillary because I don’t want to know who she really is. I can’t vote for GOP because I detest religious people. That leaves a charismatic blackman with little worldly experience, a Donny Osmond wannabe president, or the former mayor of NYC who apparently is even more authoritarian then the current president, whats his name, BTW, no matter?. So, I give up. They are all shameless egomaniacs anyway. The last politician I had any feeling for was Colin Powell and we all know what happened there.

  22. 22
    John says:

    Amen. THe idea that Hillary wants that lizard Penn to run her campaign should send all reasonable people running for the hills. Totally despicable tactics: do not want.

  23. 23
    SaleemSinai says:

    Mark Penn looks exactly like Vincent D’Onofrio about two-thirds of the way through “Men in Black.” Of course, that was a much better performance.

  24. 24

    I don’t understand why people keep assuming that Obama won’t fight back. Sure, his message is about coming together, but I think people are being naive (to use Hillary Clinton’s favorite term) is they think this guy, who was both a community organizer in Chicago and an attorney, doesn’t know how to fight back. I call B.S.

    Well, how is he fighting back on these charges? Seems like he’s relying about the MSM to defend him. Which I have to admit is working. But will this scale to the general election?

    I like both Obama and Clinton. I’m not a big fan of this particular attack, but christ it’s nothing compared to the way GW Bush Republicans went after Gore or Kerry. Can he take it, that’s the question.

    Now that being said, from what I’ve seen… he can.

  25. 25
    Svensker says:

    Mark Penn? Two words: Eeeeee Wwwwwww.

  26. 26

    Amen. THe idea that Hillary wants that lizard Penn to run her campaign should send all reasonable people running for the hills. Totally despicable tactics: do not want.

    You ever met people who run political campaigns? None of them are nice people.

    In fact you don’t want a nice guy.

    The mistake Hillary made though, is letting Mark Penn speak in public. You also don’t want that.

  27. 27
    Billy K says:

    I don’t understand why people keep assuming that Obama won’t fight back.

    Because he’s never shown any signs of wanting to do so or even knowing how.

  28. 28
    ken says:

    Get real people. We will have a hard enough time as it is electing Hillary Clinton to the white house without you throwing bombs at her a year out. It disgusts me to see that after fifteen years of lies and smears people who should know better still believe the right wing propaganda about Hillary. But you do. And, given that you cannot overcome your conservative conditioning regarding Hillary, obstentially people who would like to elect a democrat, think how impossible it will be to get the nation to elect a black man who used cocaine to that office.

    The conseravatives always favor negative campaigning because it works. It has worked on you and it will work on Obama.

    If I saw any evidence that people like John Cole could overcome his conditioning regarding Hillary I would have more optimism about Obama’s chance. As it apears impossibe to overcome I concede that should Obama win the nomination will lose the general and we will have another eight years of right wing wackoes in the white house.

  29. 29
    Tony J says:

    Bets the hell out of “I’m going with my gut” politics that made America pick President “I’d like to have a Beer With” even though he’s supposedly a recovering alcoholic who had to give up the sauce because it turned him into a drunk-driving thug who once tried to pick a fight with his own father, i.e. someone no rational person would want to “have a beer with”, two times in a row.

    Fixed for

  30. 30
    Tony J says:

    …accuracy.

  31. 31
    Jake says:

    Yep. If someone with an (R) beside his name made these exact same comments we’d all be squealing like Jonah Goldberg when someone eats the last bag of Cheetos.

    The Dems may have a much lower double dealing scumbag quotient than the Reps but that doesn’t mean the party is completely devoid of double-dealing scumbags. Enjoy the show as the opps who have studied Rove-Tactics work through their long list of subtle ways to point out that Obama is a) black and b) has Mooslims in his family tree.

  32. 32
    tBone says:

    But if ANYONE thinks this was an accident, or that this was anything other than more bilge coming from the Clinton camp, I got a bridge to sell you.

    If it were anyone other than Kerrey, I’d agree. Given that it was Kerrey, though, I have to allow for another possibility: an incredibly dumb string of words came out of his mouth without first passing through the brain hiding behind that ginormous forehead. It certainly wouldn’t be the first time.

    Either way, the Clinton camp would be wise to put a muzzle on him.

  33. 33
    TheFountainHead says:

    As it apears impossibe to overcome I concede that should Obama win the nomination will lose the general and we will have another eight years of right wing wackoes in the white house.

    Speaking of wackoes….

    Seriously, have you seen how Obama polls in a general election, without even trying?

  34. 34
    Tony J says:

    Dear Ken,

    Thank you very much for your recent application for the post of Balloon Juice Concern Troll Pro Tem.

    I regret to inform you, however, that your application has been unsuccesful as the post has already been filled.

    We will, of course, keep your name on file, and would welcome your interest should another post become vacant.

    Once again, thank you, and Happy Holidays.

    Yours,

    Tony Jeebuskriskros,
    Director of Human Resources (Lurkers Branch)

  35. 35
    Dreggas says:

    ken Says:

    Get real people. We will have a hard enough time as it is electing Hillary Clinton to the white house without you throwing bombs at her a year out. It disgusts me to see that after fifteen years of lies and smears people who should know better still believe the right wing propaganda about Hillary. But you do. And, given that you cannot overcome your conservative conditioning regarding Hillary, obstentially people who would like to elect a democrat, think how impossible it will be to get the nation to elect a black man who used cocaine to that office.

    It didn’t take right wing conditioning to get me to dislike the Clagina, she did it on her own when she opened her mouth. She Lady MacBeth for the modern age.

  36. 36
    dslak says:

    Given the numerous national polls that have shown Obama with a larger lead over the leading Republican candidates, it’s silly to declare that Obama is incapable of winning the general.

  37. 37
    Helena Montana says:

    I’m a big ol’ liberal, and as far as I’m concerned, La Clinton and all her associates are pond scum. They’re modeling their campaign strategy after Bush’s, and what, I ask you, would make anybody believe her administration would be any different from his?

  38. 38
    4tehlulz says:

    think how impossible it will be to get the nation to elect a black man who used cocaine to that office.

    ‘sup Hillary?

  39. 39
    Dreggas says:

    Helena Montana Says:

    I’m a big ol’ liberal, and as far as I’m concerned, La Clinton and all her associates are pond scum. They’re modeling their campaign strategy after Bush’s, and what, I ask you, would make anybody believe her administration would be any different from his?

    Somehow her last name makes it magically different even though this woman is NOT her husband and would NOT govern like him at all. The fact that she traipses around acting like she is owed this speaks volumes.

  40. 40
    dslak says:

    I think what ken is trying to say is: “Nigger! Nigger! Nigger!”

  41. 41
    STEVEinSC says:

    Agreed. Hillary got the negatives the hard way, she earned them. This little friendly toasting of the anti-Republican candidates is useful and is only a mild vetting, a foretaste of what the neofascists will do to them. If we feel they have weaknesses now, just wait until these are turned into campaign slogans next year.

  42. 42
    STEVEinSC says:

    Umm, mine was a reply to Dreggas, not dslak, although the republikkkans will be using that one for sure.

  43. 43
    ken says:

    Obama’s poll numbers did not go up until he started his negative campaigning and attacking Hillary Clinton.

    Negative campaigning works.

    Any republican nominee will start out with an advantage over our two most likely democratic nominess in that he will not be a woman nor will he be black. This is America so being a woman and being black are distinct disadvantages when running for national office.

    These gender and race issues will be hard to overcome but in the cases of Hillary and Barack we have a well known female Senator against whom negative campaigning can do little additional damage and a little known black Senator against whom negative campaigning can define and destroy.

    Do you really want to entrust the future of America to the ability of the American people to be more clear headed, rational and reasonble concerning a black man with muslim family connections who used coccaine than John Cole is concerning a talented hard working knowledgable female Senator?

    When I see that people who are smart and have access to information like John Cole does but cannot be bothered to think for themselves or just cannot get beyond their conditioning regarding Hillary Clinton I see no reason to think the unwashed masses will not respond just as he does when the conservative slime machine is turned on Obama.

  44. 44
    Ed Drone says:

    “The one—ONE—good thing about Hillary becoming President that I can think of right now is that the Republicans will immediately work to repeal every single expansion of executive power that they’ve put in place under Bush. And, the Democrats being Democrats, it will WORK despite there only being about four Republicans being left in Congress.”

    I think that whoever the Democratic nominee is, he or she should announce that. once in office, he/she is going to arrest the entire Congress under the authorities given the President under the Patriot Act, and will only release them when they agree to repeal those powers. And if they don’t repeal them, promise to imprison them again, and again, till they do. It’s sort of a “stop me before I decree again” thing. Keep it up till the president has no power to imprison Americans without proper judicial authority.

    And it also just occurred to me that Barack Obama’s name is improperly spelled. It should be “Barack (Who’s sane) Obama.

    Ed

  45. 45
    dslak says:

    I expect the Republicans’ race-bating (or at least that of their proxies) to be less subtle, and to hurt thems quite a bit with moderates, should Obama become the Democratic nominee. It will be both sad and funny to watch, should it happen. They just won’t be able to help shooting themselves in the foot (feet?).

  46. 46

    I’m a big ol’ liberal, and as far as I’m concerned, La Clinton and all her associates are pond scum. They’re modeling their campaign strategy after Bush’s, and what, I ask you, would make anybody believe her administration would be any different from his?

    That’s probably the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard.

  47. 47
    dslak says:

    Shorter ken: “Americans hate women, blacks, and Muslims.” Hillary is only one of the above, whereas Obama is two.

  48. 48
    Tony J says:

    I think what ken is trying to say is: “Nigger! Nigger! Nigger!”

    I mean, for Christ’s sake, if Americans are forced to vote for one of those people in order to keep a Republican out of the White House, it’s nothing more or less than a slap in the face for the dead of the Civil-War.

  49. 49
    The Other Andrew says:

    …so, what kind of arcane ritual are we going to have to carry out to ensure that Obama/Dodd is the ticket? Chanting Latin or Sumerian while throwing DLC consultants into a volcano, something like that?

  50. 50
    dslak says:

    Obama doesn’t scare the DLC, but to get an Obama/Dodd ticket, Obama would have to be the nominee, and then he’d need to have something to gain to choose Dodd as his running mate. Besides the respect of the ‘netroots, I can’t see what that gain would be.

  51. 51
    4tehlulz says:

    …so, what kind of arcane ritual are we going to have to carry out to ensure that Obama/Dodd is the ticket? Chanting Latin or Sumerian while throwing DLC consultants into a volcano, something like that?

    Ph’nglui mglw’nafh Cthulhu R’lyeh wgah’nagl fhtagn

  52. 52
    TheFountainHead says:

    I expect the Republicans’ race-bating (or at least that of their proxies) to be less subtle, and to hurt thems quite a bit with moderates, should Obama become the Democratic nominee. It will be both sad and funny to watch, should it happen. They just won’t be able to help shooting themselves in the foot (feet?).

    I couldn’t agree more. Nominating Obama is worth this alone. If Hilary Clinton has trouble keeping the slanderous reins in on her own campaign, can you imagine how impossible it would be for the Republicans to keep their biggoted, hate-filled constituents from saying utterly disastrous things?

    Oh, and ken, may God have mercy on your soul because he certainly didn’t have much for your mind.

  53. 53
    dslak says:

    Echoing 4tehlulz, there’s not enough Cthulhu in politics. Why settle for the lesser of two evils?

  54. 54

    When I see that people who are smart and have access to information like John Cole does but cannot be bothered to think for themselves or just cannot get beyond their conditioning regarding Hillary Clinton I see no reason to think the unwashed masses will not respond just as he does when the conservative slime machine is turned on Obama.

    But ken. GW Bush is the kind of guy you want to have a beer with. That makes him qualified to be President!

  55. 55
    Svensker says:

    These gender and race issues will be hard to overcome but in the cases of Hillary and Barack we have a well known female Senator against whom negative campaigning can do little additional damage and a little known black Senator against whom negative campaigning can define and destroy.

    Shorter Ken: Since it is obvious a black can’t win in America, voting for Obama is not only foolish, but racist! Yay, Hillary!

  56. 56

    Echoing 4tehlulz, there’s not enough Cthulhu in politics.

    Did you ever notice that “Cheney” is an anagram of Cthulu? [Well, all right, it has an extra n, is missing the t and the l, and has the wrong vowels…but when it comes to Great Old Ones, you can’t be too thorough.]

  57. 57
    dslak says:

    Earlier scholars recognized a number of possible transliterations of the word now commonly seens as ‘Cthulhu’ in that alien tongue of the Old Ones. ‘Cheney’ was used by some, but is not considered to be archaic.

  58. 58
    dslak says:

    That last bit should read “is NOW considered to be archaic.”

  59. 59
    srv says:

    The disparity between the popularity of Bill and Hillary in no way speak to something irrational.

  60. 60
    Dreggas says:

    demimondian Says:

    Echoing 4tehlulz, there’s not enough Cthulhu in politics.
    Did you ever notice that “Cheney” is an anagram of Cthulu? [Well, all right, it has an extra n, is missing the t and the l, and has the wrong vowels…but when it comes to Great Old Ones, you can’t be too thorough.]

    Well Cheney does kinda resemble one who has made a covenant with Dagon…fish face and all…

  61. 61
    TheFountainHead says:

    The disparity between the popularity of Bill and Hillary in no way speak to something irrational.

    Why should it? They are two different people running for President in different manners at different times.

    In fact, replay Bill’s first campaign and you’d almost want to sue Obama for copyright infringement.

  62. 62
    dslak says:

    In fact, replay Bill’s first campaign and you’d almost want to sue Obama for copyright infringement.

    And Bush, Sr. would also want to sue Bill for the same thing this time around.

  63. 63
    Ben says:

    I loved this quote

    The fire in the belly that Trippi exhibited on Hardball yesterday reflected perfectly Edwards’s populist fighter persona, just as Axelrod’s mellow above the fray style echoed Obama. What does Penn’s slimy shiftiness say about his candidate?

  64. 64
    Desmond says:

    I don’t know why so many people think Obama can’t win. Not only do polls show him consistently beating Republicans nationally, but seriously guys, after 8 years of Bush, how CAN’T he win? Who’s going to beat him? Cross dressing, abortion supporting, authoritarian Rudy Giuliani? Mormon Mitt Romney? Moronic Jesus freak Mike Huckabee?

  65. 65
    ThymeZone says:

    Can anybody explain to me what this thread is about?

    “National politics is a dirty game.”

    “The Clintons play dirty politics.”

    “Therefore, stop the Clintons and we won’t have dirty politics any more.”

    Is that about it? ‘Cause I can’t see any other rational summary of the topic here.

    Somebody says they have “had enough” of Rovian politics?

    Kudos. Too bad you didn’t see the horror of that about eight years ago, when a lot of the rest of us did.

    But of course, it was all made invisible by

    the blinding likeability of George Bush The Guy You Could Have a Beer With.

    Please, give me a fucking break. There’s nothing worse than an ex-smoker. An ex-bonesmoker, I mean.

    Let’s lighten up, kids. The next year is going to be ugly, grotesque and shitty. There is one and only one goal:

    Defeat the GOP beast. Kill that beast. Nothing else matters. The country can’t survive another GOP presidency.

    You want to talk about slime on Hardball, or about what’s really important for America?

  66. 66
    Jen says:

    Let’s lighten up, kids. The next year is going to be ugly, grotesque and shitty.

    That’s a weird sentence.

    Even though do I feel a strange affinity for you, TZ, since being accused of being your alter ego.

    I’m not, although I did buy a Christmas CD last year in my church where the proceeds went to Smile Train. Or a similar group, I’m not sure. So cheers to that.

  67. 67
    ThymeZone says:

    That’s a weird sentence.

    Even though do I feel a strange affinity for you

    No matter how I read those two constructs, I can’t help but laugh out loud.

    Someday, write and tell me what the hell you are talking about.

  68. 68
    Zifnab says:

    Can anybody explain to me what this thread is about?

    “National politics is a dirty game.”

    “The Clintons play dirty politics.”

    “Therefore, stop the Clintons and we won’t have dirty politics any more.”

    Is that about it? ‘Cause I can’t see any other rational summary of the topic here.

    Somebody says they have “had enough” of Rovian politics?

    Kudos. Too bad you didn’t see the horror of that about eight years ago, when a lot of the rest of us did.

    More Better Dems, TZ. No one is suggesting that if its Clinton v Republican, you shouldn’t vote for the Democratic Candidate. But we’ve got two other Dems in the primary and I can’t see a compelling reason not to vote for one of them instead. Hillary Clinton isn’t going to make our country whole again. She’s (hopefully) not going to fuck it even further down the hole than her Republican counterpart, but why settle for second worst when you can shoot for better than average. Obama/Edwards Not Necessarily In That Order in 2008.

  69. 69
    ThymeZone says:

    More Better Dems, TZ.

    Sure, you and I know that, but we’re on a blog where at least two of the three front pagers are avowed non-Democrats. I ain’t taking advice from Republicans on how to make my party better. They have enough to do to turn their piece of shit party into something respectable.

    Meantime, my goal for 2008 is to elect Dems. If I can get better ones, great. If not, I vote for the ones I have.

    Can Obama or Edwards really get the nomination? I don’t know, I doubt it but it’s possible. Until I see one of them do it, I assume HRC is the nominee.

  70. 70
    TheFountainHead says:

    Can anybody explain to me what this thread is about?

    “National politics is a dirty game.”

    “The Clintons play dirty politics.”

    “Therefore, stop the Clintons and we won’t have dirty politics any more.”

    Is that about it? ‘Cause I can’t see any other rational summary of the topic here.

    Somebody says they have “had enough” of Rovian politics?

    Kudos. Too bad you didn’t see the horror of that about eight years ago, when a lot of the rest of us did.

    It’s about the fact that slaying the GOP Beast with Hillary Clinton is cutting off your nose to spite your face. It will get the job done but it will be ugly and in the end we’ll still be bleeding all over the place.

  71. 71
    ThymeZone says:

    It’s about the fact that slaying the GOP Beast with Hillary Clinton is cutting off your nose to spite your face.

    Rhetorically interesting, but possibly politically irrelevant, if you get my drift.

    You only get one candidate per party.

    HRC is not a gal I would go out for a beer with, as the saying goes, but if she is the nominee, then we have to elect her. I don’t know of any acceptable alternative, do you?

    And if we think Obama/Edwards are the saviors, somebody better call them and tell them to run better campaigns. Because right now, ANAICT, they suck.

  72. 72
    TheFountainHead says:

    And if we think Obama/Edwards are the saviors, somebody better call them and tell them to run better campaigns. Because right now, ANAICT, they suck.

    IDKWTFYATA.

  73. 73
    Phoebe says:

    About fighting back: Obama’s style is very rope-a-dope, or give-em-enough-rope, or possibly some other metaphor that involves rope and essentially means that when the other person is doing something that actually hurts him/herself,
    Obama realizes that’s the best of all worlds and lets them have the stage as much as possible, and then, when it’s peaked, makes a very cutting joke, such as “I plan to release my full kindergarten papers tomorrow.” This draws a full contrast between him and his opponent, makes him look strong and her petty and desperate.

    On the other hand, when the “enemy” is someone he wouldn’t get in trouble among Iowans for flat out stomping, he is more straighforward, such as when he called for CBS to fire Don Imus – first and strongest reaction among all candidates – or, when it was FOX who reported his madrassa education, boycotting FOX.

    Hillary, on the other hand, is all one note, which is full guns blazing, like Tony Montana at the end of Scarface, regardless of the size of the target. Crazy and scary.

  74. 74

    ANAICT is a modern ENglish corruption of a Greek word “anaktos” (meaning roughly “without actually doing any work”).

  75. 75
    Chris Johnson says:

    If Obama is capable of withstanding Hillary’s worst, I’ll believe that he can handle the general election AND actually being president.

    If he’s not capable of dealing with politicking of this intensity I don’t want him to be president regardless of how much of a better person he is.

    If Hillary is capable of taking him out, I hope he’s still a thorn in her side to keep her reasonably honest, but I’d rather have her fighting off the Republicans in the general election.

    I realize this is the same argument people used to defend Nixon (would you rather have a competent scoundrel or an honest boob in the office?) and now I understand what they meant. Nixon was a dick but he was marginally better than Bush is. Carter was IMHO a genuinely good man but he sucked at politicking and wasn’t able to run the country well enough.

    I want good people in politics but if I can’t have that I want them to be competent- and arrogant enough that they use their competence to run a government, not just get re-elected. Whichever survives, Clinton or Obama, I’m supporting that one.

    My big fear is not that a scoundrel conniving mean Clinton gets elected- but that we get someone even less competent than Bush next time. Around about now we can’t afford that, so I’m secretly rooting for Hillary to be a horrible bitch monster- to test Obama. If he passes, only then do I want him.

  76. 76

    Hillary Clinton isn’t going to make our country whole again. She’s (hopefully) not going to fuck it even further down the hole than her Republican counterpart, but why settle for second worst when you can shoot for better than average. Obama/Edwards Not Necessarily In That Order in 2008.

    People are not entirely stupid. If Hillary were to be President, and she turned out to be competent and not fuck things up worse.(Pretty damn likely) I suspect what you’d see is an even further rejection of Republicans as the crazy guy who mumbles in the corner.

    That is how the Democrats were treated during Bush’s term. The crazy guys who complain about everything without justification. The whole MSM bought into this charade of Bush Derangement Syndrome. That is, until they realized the liberals were right all along.

    So what happens when the Republicans go off their rockers again, as they did under Bill, but this time everybody is wise to them having had to suffer under the moronic Bush?

    Or we could all sit around singing Kumbaya, as Obama proposes.

    Or we could prove that Democrats are crazy, as Edwards proposes.

    Those are our choices. I honestly don’t know which path is the right one.

  77. 77
    TheFountainHead says:

    Or we could all realize that as Americans we’re in this foxhole together, sit around singing Kumbaya, as Obama proposes.

    Fixed.

    Or we could prove that big corporations have been destroying our political system for decades Democrats are crazy, as Edwards proposes.

    Fixed.

  78. 78

    I want good people in politics but if I can’t have that I want them to be competent- and arrogant enough that they use their competence to run a government, not just get re-elected. Whichever survives, Clinton or Obama, I’m supporting that one.

    My big fear is not that a scoundrel conniving mean Clinton gets elected- but that we get someone even less competent than Bush next time. Around about now we can’t afford that, so I’m secretly rooting for Hillary to be a horrible bitch monster- to test Obama. If he passes, only then do I want him.

    A-Men!

    I don’t want to have a beer with the President. I just want them to be able to outsmart Whackmackdinejabber.

  79. 79

    TheFountainHead – Ok, I’ll grant you the Obama.

    Edwards on the other hand is dangerous.

  80. 80
    ThymeZone says:

    I honestly don’t know which path is the right one.

    I don’t agree with your analysis of the paths … but … at the end of the path, the right thing is to vote for whoever the Dem nominee is.

    That and only that slays the GOP beast. Or at least sets it back four years.

  81. 81
    Jen says:

    Lighten up, TZ, we’ve got an ugly, grotesque, and shitty year ahead of us! Whoo hoo!

    :)

  82. 82
    TheFountainHead says:

    Jen Says:
    Lighten up, TZ, we’ve got an ugly, grotesque, and shitty year ahead of us! Whoo hoo!

    :)

    I

  83. 83
    Cyrus says:

    The Other Andrew Says:
    …so, what kind of arcane ritual are we going to have to carry out to ensure that Obama/Dodd is the ticket? Chanting Latin or Sumerian while throwing DLC consultants into a volcano, something like that?

    No, it’s not necessary. Getting Obama or Dodd elected would just be a pleasant side effect.

  84. 84
    TheFountainHead says:

    Awww, damn HTML tags. Well, I was gonna say I’m madly in love with you Jen but HTML smacked me down for ya.

  85. 85
    Zifnab says:

    That is how the Democrats were treated during Bush’s term. The crazy guys who complain about everything without justification. The whole MSM bought into this charade of Bush Derangement Syndrome. That is, until they realized the liberals were right all along.

    This reversal happened in 2008? Because it sure as hell didn’t happen in 2007.

    So what happens when the Republicans go off their rockers again, as they did under Bill, but this time everybody is wise to them having had to suffer under the moronic Bush?

    Or we could all sit around singing Kumbaya, as Obama proposes.

    Or we could prove that Democrats are crazy, as Edwards proposes.

    Those are our choices. I honestly don’t know which path is the right one.

    Part of the goal is to keep the Republicans from going off their rockers. While amusing to watch them flail about like idiots, having a 41 Republican Senate Majority isn’t actually going to be any fun when we’ve got the Pussy Whipped Party of ’06 running the show.

    I don’t really want to watch Hillary Clinton go to war with the die hard holdout of the Republican Party, but then I don’t think she really will. She’ll be friendly and play nice and give Republicans some cake to shut them up. And then she’ll take the lion’s share and leave the rest of America out in the cold. I really don’t want her to Harry Reid the White House – talking progressive while she slowly slides the tax-cut, big business, anti-reform knife into our backs.

    I don’t want a President that will treat the progressive movement like Bush treated the Evangelical Movement, with pretty words and empty gestures, promising everything and giving nothing but kickbacks to the right politically connected people.

    I’d rather have “crazy” John Edwards or “nice guy” Barak Obama.

  86. 86
    ding7777 says:

    Good Grief! This is just another Hillary is bad rant.

    Kerrey said the exact same thing on Oct 30 in an Economist interview. The Obama camp didn’t question it then. But of course, way back on Oct 30th, Kerrey hadn’t endorsed Hillary yet.

    And where’s all the outrage when Eric Holder publiclly echoes the Right wing talking points about Hillary?

  87. 87
    Cyrus says:

    ThymeZone Says:
    More Better Dems, TZ.
    Sure, you and I know that, but we’re on a blog where at least two of the three front pagers are avowed non-Democrats.

    Really? Tim’s not a Democrat? Huh, my mistake.

  88. 88
    Jen says:

    That is at *least* the third time on this blog someone has fallen in love with me, and Psycho has humped my leg. I am starting to get concerned.

    :)

  89. 89
    ThymeZone says:

    That is at least the third time on this blog someone has fallen in love with me, and Psycho has humped my leg. I am starting to get concerned.

    Well, any guy like yourself who taps his foot and waves his hand in here is going to get hit on immediately.

  90. 90

    Hey, the population on the blog in no more than about 20% female. What did you expect, Jen?

  91. 91
    Jen says:

    Well, I realize that MST3K is kind of a red flag in front of a bull, but today I’m just sort of chillin’, yo.

    If anyone else has Yahoo mail, have you noticed the parade of bizarre (AP) Bush faces that have marched through your inbox today? I feel like I’ve seen every emotion he has an offer. This is evidently his face for, “you disappoint me, Congress, by not wimping out on my demands WAY sooner than you did.”

  92. 92
    DougJ says:

    More alcohol talk: I’m drinking the Macallan 12 right now…is it the most overrated single malt? It’s good, but it just doesn’t have the character of Talisker, Lagavulin, Laphroaig, Caol Ila, or even Highland Park. Why is it that it’s so esteemed?

  93. 93
    Jen says:

    That’s *boy* alcohol talk.

    Ever had a Lemon Drop? Yummy!

  94. 94

    Lemon drop? Feh. That’s not a real Grrl drink.

    One of my bridge partners in college used to drink Doctor Pepper with Southern Comfort — now that’s a truly girly (foul, sweet, and interesting only for the alcohol content) drink.

  95. 95

    Drug smears, Hillary? What was the governor’s cut for the flights into Mena? Can anyone say Barry Seal?

  96. 96
    Psycheout says:

    Well, any guy like yourself who taps his foot and waves his hand in here is going to get hit on immediately.

    LOL! You have redeemed yourself.

  97. 97
    ThymeZone says:

    More alcohol talk: I’m drinking the Macallan 12 right now…is it the most overrated single malt? It’s good, but it just doesn’t have the character of Talisker, Lagavulin, Laphroaig, Caol Ila, or even Highland Park. Why is it that it’s so esteemed I’m so shitfaced and the room is spinning?

    I said the same thing when I got drunk on cheap sake.

  98. 98
    The Other Steve says:

    I don’t really want to watch Hillary Clinton go to war with the die hard holdout of the Republican Party, but then I don’t think she really will. She’ll be friendly and play nice and give Republicans some cake to shut them up. And then she’ll take the lion’s share and leave the rest of America out in the cold. I really don’t want her to Harry Reid the White House – talking progressive while she slowly slides the tax-cut, big business, anti-reform knife into our backs.

    In other words you want Bankruptcy Bill loving Edwards.

    Huh? I keep wondering if you guys are just perpetually drunk.

  99. 99
    Krista says:

    Hey, the population on the blog in no more than about 20% female. What did you expect, Jen?

    Well, as far as we know, anyway. There are a lot of commenters on here with gender-neutral handles, who have yet to tip their hand.

  100. 100
    grumpy realist says:

    Dr. Pepper with Southern Comfort? Urghk!

    Paul Fussell has a section on alcoholic drinks in his book CLASS and points out the connection a) between sweetness and youth, and b) sweetness and “lower-class.” Dunno if I believe the latter–anyone know what your standard blue-collar worker drinks aside from beer? I’d think the stereotypical he-man factory worker would be far more likely to turn his nose up at anything alcoholic and sweet as “being sissy.”

    The Europeans have the right idea: the sweet stuff comes AFTER the meal.

  101. 101
    grumpy realist says:

    Oh, and ThymeZone–have you ever had Kubota? It’s a hard sake to get your hands on (and definitely NOT cheap.) It’s one of those deceptively simple and mild sakes: you only realize the problem when you get up from the table and your legs refuse to support you.

    (We’ve also got the Awamori stuff, which is Okinawa’s pure rocket fuel….)

  102. 102
    ThymeZone says:

    Oh, and ThymeZone—have you ever had Kubota

    Don’t know sakes by name, I just know that some of them taste really good and some taste really bad … but if you heat up the bad ones you can drink them because, like coffee, the bad ones are made palatable by heat.

    And I found that sake was a really easy and fast way to lost all contact with reality and become pleasantly and intensely inebriated without any unpleasant side effects.

    Back in the day when I could do stuff like that and get away with it.

  103. 103
    Asti says:

    Dunno if I believe the latter—anyone know what your standard blue-collar worker drinks aside from beer?

    MD 20/20? That’s pretty sickeningly low-class sweet stuff. I never drank that though (well not more than once amyway), I always went for the T J Swann Easy Nights (it was cheap and it got me unstraight, that’s what mattered).

  104. 104

    Dr. Pepper with Southern Comfort? Urghk!

    Yeah, well, she couldn’t count cards, either.

    Even when she was sober.

  105. 105
    Asti says:

    And of course, there’s ALWAYS Asti Spumante for those special occasions! ;)

  106. 106
    Krista says:

    Goddamn, that just brought back a memory of a 15-year old me in a teal satin dress, chugging Spumante in the parking lot at the prom. Good times.

  107. 107
    The Other Steve says:

    Goddamn, that just brought back a memory of a 15-year old me in a teal satin dress, chugging Spumante in the parking lot at the prom. Good times.

    bviously, you’re too young for Sun Country wine coolers. :-)

  108. 108

    Sun Country wine coolers

    Best served mixed with everclear.

  109. 109
    ThymeZone says:

    Best served mixed with everclear.

    You didn’t by any chance go to the University of Arizona, did you?

    I did, you see …….

  110. 110
    Conservatively Liberal says:

    This independent will never vote for Hillary! (Queue shrill groaning noizes about how WE have to beat the repugs), no matter how bad the other side is. I will just toss my vote out for a write-in. While I respect Bill, the more I have seen Hillary! at work, in the news and on C-SPAN, the less I like her. She just comes across as insincere, triangulating, calculating and is not someone I think I could trust to do the right thing. As I expect the Dems to pick up seats in the house and senate, having four years of gridlock just might be best for America.

    I have learned that when you give one party the keys to the mansion, they party at the expense of everyone else. If we have Democratic control of the white house, senate and house, I believe they will screw things up over the next four years so badly that the right would surge back and we would be back in the same mess we were in 2003. Screw that.

    If Obama gets the nod, he gets my vote. Same with Edwards, Dodd or any other Dem. But if Hillary! gets it, no f’ing way am I going to vote for her. I have never voted for a repub prez either, and I won’t start now. If Hillary! gets the nod, I see the choice as between “Sucks” and “Sucks Less, Maybe”.

    Maybe I will write in Gore if this is the case. He would not win, but I could not cast my vote for a better person.

  111. 111
    Svensker says:

    There are a lot of commenters on here with gender-neutral handles, who have yet to tip their hand.

    I keep giving my hand a tip and it keeps giving it back. Dang. But are my handles gender neutral?

  112. 112

    I keep giving my hand a tip and it keeps giving it back. Dang. But are my handles gender neutral?

    My real name is Stephanie.

  113. 113
    ThymeZone says:

    My real name is Stephanie.

    Is that a foot tap, or a hand wave?

  114. 114
    Chris Johnson says:

    If Obama gets the nod, he gets my vote. Same with Edwards, Dodd or any other Dem. But if Hillary! gets it, no f’ing way am I going to vote for her. I have never voted for a repub prez either, and I won’t start now. If Hillary! gets the nod, I see the choice as between “Sucks” and “Sucks Less, Maybe”.

    I did that in 2000. Allow me to say, “OOPS”. Sometimes a matter of degree still matters.

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