Whether you want to believe it or not, the Democratic Party went along with the war. When it became apparent that it was all based on incorrect information (misleading, if you like) they postured and yelled and screamed, and when it came down to the crunch, they caved to the Bush administration, just like they’re doing now on the funding bill.
The deal would lack a key provision Democrats had attached to previous funding bills calling for most U.S. troops to come home from Iraq by the end of 2008, which would be a significant legislative victory for Bush.
Democrats admit such a move would be highly controversial within their own party.
No shit. There is only one thing that is going to stop this war and all the ill that has come from it. Stop the money. When there’s no money, there’re no payckecks, there’s no equipment, there’s no war. Troops will have to come home. As long as the Democrats keep giving George W. Bush $$, they are culpable in American deaths and all of the bad things that have happened since we decided to go to war (that I very regrettably supported.)
Note to Nancy and Harry: You don’t have to worry that people will label you as unsupportive of the troops. Most of us are on your side now, and know that “supporting the troops” means getting them the hell outta there.
grumpy realist
Can’t we just start calling them the Mensheviks now and be done with it?
If they can’t stand up to Our Lady of Perpetual Rage and The Felafel, how are they gonna deal with the Persians? Sheesh.
Dreggas
Wrong, bush will leave the troops there without bullets or food because He. Won’t. Blink. What part of that aren’t you getting? He will NOT bring them home and even if Congress did cut the funding he wouldn’t. When they do well they are a political prop and when they suffer they are a political prop. This is what you get from having an asshole who has never known what it is like to lead men of any kind, save for in the newest frat drinking game, running the show. He will leave them there to starve.
Zifnab
Tonight they’ve just proved it. Fuck the troops. We got ours, Jack.
jcricket
Yeah, the only thing more disappointing that the Republican party is the Democratic party. I write off Republicans ever doing the right thing, because they’re crazy. But I would hope Dems understand that continually capitulating because you either buy the Republican framing or because you just can’t handle the filibuster is fucking lame.
Make lemonade out of the lemons (to borrow a phrase). Go down fighting. Stand for something. You will win. The American public will back you. And you’ll be doing the right thing.
Michael D.
That’s what I’m saying. It’s pretty sad when Dennis Kucinich is starting to look like the sane candidate.
scarshapedstar
Whores.
Ninerdave
Why would they risk anything? In 2006 it was good enough to just not be a Republican, 2008 it’s looking like the same deal.
While I think their cowardice is disgusting, I’m sure the above is exactly what they are thinking.
Psycheout
Now that we’re winning, pull the rug out from under the troops. Good strategy! LOL!
No wonder the Democrats aren’t biting. They’re craven, but not stupid.
Psycheout
Suggested campaign slogan: “Vote Democrat in 2008. We don’t do anything!”
LOL!
Zifnab
Digby on Torture. Turns out it works after all.
jcricket
I know, but it’s sad to think they buy into it when the reality is that articulating their own frame and forcing the unpleasant issues on Republicans more often without capitulating would actually win even more points with the American public.
Bringing into stark relief just who the Republican party is and how far out of the mainstream their views are would be nothing but positive for the Dems.
Too bad the political consultants and Beltway elite that own the opinions Dem officials listen to don’t see it that way.
Emma Anne
My rep (Udall) explained after a similar vote a while back that he believed (as Dreggas does) that Bush would leave the troops there without support, out of spite. And I can’t say I would put it beyond Bush.
And I quail at the thought. As much as I have opposed this war, even before it started, I want us to pull out carefully and safely. Perhaps we need to wait for a Democratic president. I know that’s more than another year and more people will die. All paths are awful at this point.
Emma Anne
Oh, and no, the Democratic party did not “go along with” the war. The majority of Dems voted against giving Bush the power, and some of the ones who voted for it thought he would not go to war if there weren’t actually any WMDs (I know, how naive, but we hadn’t seen his full range of crazy at that point). This war was brought to us courtesy of the Republicans.
Chris Johnson
This is your ‘oh yeah well you’re another’ post to John, then, Michael?
Zifnab
I’d believe it of our President, but not of our entire officer’s corps. I suspect if Dems cut funding and Bush blindly ordered troops to stay and fight to the bitter end, our Generals – at least – would flip him off and bring them home. Ultimately, the power rests with the people. Bush doesn’t have a magic button that keeps US soldiers in Iraq. If Congress gave the order and the Generals consented, people could override the White House entirely. It just takes an act of willpower.
The fact that people would rather stay safely ensconced in the “system” rather than break out and do what is right is a sad comment on our species. People need to start taking the old philosophy question “What if there was a war and no one showed?” more seriously.
Michael D.
Won’t speak for John, but I bet he’d agree that the Demos are a bunch of cowards, too.
Darkness
I agree with Dreggas, this chess game has more pieces in it than you are taking into account, as much as I wish it were as simple as Michael says and the Dems had grown spines, but neither is true.
The surge (fake, late, and if it did anything, hard to prove it) boxed the Dems into a corner where there really is no escape. These guys, the Repubs, are masters at this and while 2006 gave us a handful of Improved Dems, not nearly enough to take the Repubs on at this game. You have to understand bad faith at a soul-rotting level to outmaneuver them and the Dems recognize that, for once. Honestly in the past they’d be like sheep wandering into the slaughter house. Craven, yes? I’ll agree with that, but what’s more craven is the Repubs have the noise machine all wound up and ready to scream out from their captive propaganda networks about how the Dems lost the war, just as it was finally being won. I mean, come on, why else trot out a test version of that EXACT same line for Vietnam. That was not an accident, that was using the American public as a giant focus group for the notion of retreat==defeat. I don’t agree that the New Awakened Public would really have the Dems backs. I don’t think the noise machine fatigue has quite gotten there yet.
It’s just disgusting all around, and I don’t buy the Repubs are expected to be craven, so they get a pass argument.
MikeL
Well, if it isn’t Psycheout! I asked you a question on your site, but you couldn’t find the gumption to answer it.
I think it’s cause you don’t have an answer that isn’t self-contradictory, but this is the perfect opportunity to prove me wrong.
STEVEinSC
Surely disgruntled democrats and republicans sick of their party’s descent into war and greed can take some actions.
Well, if they president holds all the war cards, then there are plenty of other ways to skin this cat. First start leaning on the Repukes’ favorite give-aways to the rich. Surely some of the bills coming up for renewal have hold-over goodies from former legislation. Excise some of the goodies. How about a “Victory in Eye-raq” revenue enhancement? Use legislative harassment.
Second, target the triangulators and fifth columnists, like Reid and Pelosi. There will be opportunities to run competitors against them. I think they are both up for reelection.
Third, shut off the contribitions to the Rahm Emmanuel-Hoyer Democratic campaign funds. Pledge big to those and send nothing. Target only like-minded candidates
Political guerrilla war folks. We need to do something.
r€nato
funny, one of the war’s chief architects, Doug Feith aka TFSGOTFOTE, thinks we’ve lost the war. Said so in WaPo earlier this week. Said the whole thing would have worked out just fine if we’d turned Iraq over to Ahmad Chalabi a lot sooner.
Pb
LOLlerskates:
Actually, that’s the one thing they didn’t do today. Try actually reading this blog, you might learn something.
The Other Andrew
The bad news is that the Democrats are in an impossible situation, and either spineless or center-right most of the time. The good news is that the Republicans are short-term thinkers. They’re alienating growing constituencies and sane people, and “We’re winning”/”We’ll have to stay there for a few decades!” won’t go together very well, once it has time to sink in.
To the American public, winning = able to leave, and I think they started the surge much too early to pull this trick off. By the time the elections roll around, they’ll have been beating the victory drums (moreso than usual) for over a year, and people won’t buy it, if they’re also saying we have to stay.
r€nato
MikeL, I’ll take a stab at Psycheout’s reply:
“Al Gore is fat!”
JWW
The first question that you should ask “yourself”. What was your original conviction on the war?
If you were in support stand your ground. If you were in opposition stand your ground.
Ninerdave
Yeah, here’s the next play: as the troops start rotating out, because their time is up and there are no troops to replace them, Bush and the GOP will claim that the strategy worked and now that the “surge is a success” we are “bringing the troops home”, while the Dems just sit around waiting for 2008.
Why aren’t the Dems getting out in front of this? Where are the calls for political progress? Why aren’t they reminding the public that political progress is what the surge was all about?
Beyond all that, why are the Dems making noise about these issues? They don’t take any spine, just some political astuteness.
– How come we don’t hear anything about the filibusters that the GOP places on every bill? We hear a lot about the “do nothing congress”
– Bush just vetoed another children’s health care bill
– The GOP blocked the AMT fix to add more tax cuts for the rich.
Those are just a few off the top of my head from the last couple of days.
r€nato
so are you saying nobody should change their minds in light of newly acquired knowledge?
Ted
Don’t expect an answer out of Psycho on anything like that. He/it still won’t talk about its views on the sun going around the earth.
jo6pac
r€nato Says:
If you were in support stand your ground. If you were in opposition stand your ground.
so are you saying nobody should change their minds in light of newly acquired knowledge?
December 13th, 2007 at 7:49 pm
If you are against now by all means change your mind, as someone against GWB & The Dark Prince I was against in the beginning and now. We need to stop meddling in others affairs when it doesn’t harm us.
jo6pac
null pointer exception
Off Topic but compare and contrast this Dear Terrorist letter with I am John Doe letter.
My hometown fucking rocks
ThymeZone
Meh, this thread is (a) a repeat of ones already done by John and Tim, and (b) a waste of time, because, as I said the other day, it’s the American voting public that created this situation, not the Dems.
The country has been bellicose and reactionary WRT defense issues for going on 70 years now, and the politics that you see now is simply a reflection of that.
The voters will “have your back?” I’ve been a Democrat for 40 years and been watching politics for 50, and I have never seen any evidence that the voters will “have the back” of anyone who goes basically against the war party.
Since the thread is an indication that we are just going to repeat ourselves over and over again, I will do it too:
If you want an anti-war government, you need to go out and elect anti-war candidates. Until you do, STFU, you aren’t adding any value to anything.
That comment is aimed at nobody in particular, but if the shoe fits you, then wear it, and get out there and work to change the government. The people still have the ultimate power in this country, believe it or not. That’s you, start taking some responsibility.
JWW
Dreggas has it all wrong. He is however a history kinda guy. Like his non-responses in post 9390.
You can I would suppose make a case either way. A fool would run and that same fool will be back in his lifetime. You could make stand and fight, and end up with the same results.
What was in your heart and mind in the first 7 days. Whatever it was, stick with it.
Michael D.
That’s a dumb comment. I may not have seen the light fast enough, but I eventually did. Not saying that I am an opinion-maker by any stretch, but if it wasn’t for people changing their minds, many more people would support this war than don’t. I’m proud that I weighed it all out and realized I was wrong. I’m glad, unlike so many others, that I can admit that.
I.
Was.
Wrong.
Deal with it.
And, by the way, if no one is allowed to change their mind, then be prepared to welcome the Republicans back to the White House in 2008!
ThymeZone
Again, since we are in the “keep repeating it” thread, apparently, I repeat again for the benefit of JWW:
Never Post Drunk. Really, I mean it.
Richard Bottoms
Are you on coke?
The GOP will spend $200 million dollars saying exactly that, and for sure the 49% of the dumb asses in this country will vote exactly that way.
Fuck the GOP.
Don’t trust their converts, they will desert Democrats the first sign that someone in the GOP is not really a meannie and he comes across as a regular Joe they want to have a beer with.
Concentrate on the 2% and win the House, Senate and White House. Kick their asses and then kick them some more when they are down.
bob
Let’s just beat the shit out of them in the next election. I realize there have been some capitulations that are definitely unwarranted but the only ones who have been consistently right on the war are Democrats. Not all Democrats, but Democrats. NOT fucking asshole republicans who have voted as a block since Nixon. Democrats are wrong often. Republicans are wrong always. They have been wrong about everything since at least 1920.
JJohnson
Damn right Mr. Cole, damn right.
I’m honestly pretty freaking pissed at ‘my’ party right now. Not as much as I am at the far right nutjobs who got the ball rolling on this sad era of American history… but still mad as hell.
I’ll be honest – while I intend to vote Democratic for the foreseeable future – with a few exceptions I see it anymore as just voting AGAINST the Republicans… and that tells me there’s something wrong with our system.
Never should a person be utterly incapable of feeling proud of who they intend to vote for. There are a couple Presidential candidates I have high hopes for, and a few in the Senate and House… but generally speaking… blech. Just blech.
Sorry for the rambling on the matter; but its how I’m feeling right now.
One thing I am truly hoping for is that when this stage of history breaks – America will become a truly multi-party country. At this point, the two big parties have had ENTIRELY too much of a monopoly on politics; and its made both unresponsive to the people they are supposed to be representing.
The Republicans just pander to the far right nutzos; and the Democrats tell us what we want to hear; but then lack the guts to do what they say they intend to do.
Ok, rant over for now. Needless to say though, I am not wholly enamored of my party at the moment.
MNPundit
“I’d believe it of our President, but not of our entire officer’s corps. I suspect if Dems cut funding and Bush blindly ordered troops to stay and fight to the bitter end, our Generals – at least – would flip him off and bring them home. Ultimately, the power rests with the people. Bush doesn’t have a magic button that keeps US soldiers in Iraq. If Congress gave the order and the Generals consented, people could override the White House entirely. It just takes an act of willpower.”
I’d believe it of our officer corps. Look at Greenwald’s experience with the PR flack. Wouldn’t the others be trapped between obedience, something that has been drummed into them their entire lives, and the practical realities? I don’t think there’s anyway to say how that would turn out.
Bush’s still the commander in chief, the way you deal with idiot commanders is… you remove the commander.
Yes impeachment.
JJohnson
@bob – there is that, its true. There are some Democrats I do rather like. Senator Jim Webb for instance really strikes me as a good guy. Obama has some faults; but I do feel the man has some genuine passion in him. And of course Dennis Kucinich seems to be one of the few people paying any freaking attention.
There are just so many others I want to smack upside the head and say “WTF ARE YOU DOING!?”
demimondian
Yup. MNPundit has it right; if we need GWB removed, then we, the people, need to do it. If we can’t, then we need to wait.
You do not want the officer corps disobeying orders EVER, no matter how terrible the situation is. There may be a case where an officer will be told to keep going even though there’s next to no way for his team to survive, and we *expect* that that man or woman will gulp, nod, and say “Yes, Sir!” to whomever gave him that order.
Cindrella Ferret
A few improvements since the last election:
1. Rumsfeld is gone.
2. Alberto Gonzalez is gone.
3. Quasimoto is no longer the Speaker.
4. George Allen is spending more time with his family.
5. Jim Webb is in the Senate.
6. Numerous Senior Republicans have announced retirement (i.e. Pete Domenici, one of my Senators. He always seemed like a reasonable guy until he blindly followed the Former Cheerleader and his War Criminals.)
No–Democrats aren’t doing everything we want them to do, but without the win in November 2006 things would be substantially worse. Imagine the DOD with Rumsfeld still in charge.
Yes I am unhappy with the Vichy Democrats, but we have made progress. Unfortunately, our troops are paying the price for the failed policies of the vicious War Criminals that infest the Executive Branch.
And when the Congressional Republicans grow a pair and vote against war policies they know are failing I suggest ALL Republicans against the war check their fucking attitude at the door. You’re bringing a butter knife to a gun fight. Deal.
PaulW
The Democratic leadership is not listening to you.
They only listen to people who can get them behind closed doors, with checks in their hands, and offers of money and good deals, just as long as they don’t rock the boat, as long as they go by how their campaign managers and lobbyist fundraisers want them to. As long as the Democratic leadership listens to the money, they won’t listen to the majority.
JWW
Renato,
Everone has the right to change their mind. The question would be why? So lets say, you and your girl are out shopping, you go to the mens room, you come out and some guy is giving your girl a hard time. You step in, he gives you a right hook, you say well, no real harm and walk away. Girl leaves you a week later and you wonder why?
Michael D.
Speaking of dumb comments, read the reply you posted. Your sack is empty because you seek a ghost. I change my mind daily(about triviel things}. I see that you may have been initially supportive. Is it because someone died that you changed your mind?
Thymezone,
You have and always will be worthlees. Nuff said for your sorry ass. I hope you never have a son representing this country.
Ted
#3 = hilarious. Brings to mind the response blog post from Roger Ailes (the good one) right after the ’06 elections (quoted):
And my favorite:
ThymeZone
Sober up, man. Really, you’re embarassing yourself.
demimondian
Really, JWW, you’re a loser. Truly pathetic. Wow.
Ed Drone
The problem with cutting the funding is that Bush and his crew will cut everything else — starting with the families and employees on military bases (they’re already threatening this, you know) — in order to keep his occupation ‘working.’
He has signed a pact with the Iraq ‘government’ (the one we put into place) to trade our presence for their oil (i.e., we stay and take their oil*, they get the ‘steadying influence’ of our troops). No way, now that the payoff is in his friends’ hands, is he going to back out now.
No way.
Ed
* When I say “we” get the oil, I mean the big oil companies, not us, the populace, nor us, the soldiers and their families. No, we still get the short end of the stick, the pointy end, at that, and ever shall it be so.
Silver Owl
We have quite a few oldsters to fire. The American voters have been napping for generations. There is whole hell of a lot of house cleaning to do. Fire ’em. Replace them. If the replacements do not perform fire them as well. The alternative is revolution.
Ed Drone,
Bush is going to act like a dictator. Make the people pay for his fuck ups and his woodies is his way. He thinks he is a some fairytale emperor just like the ones he hates. His followers actually believe the same shit he does.
Bush, Hussein, Kim Jong II, The Saudi Arabian King and family and even Iran’s president have more in common than they do differences. All are weak putrid men that want to be seen as more than they are.
One thing America can not do is become are weak and subverted as the people of Iran, North Korea nor Saudi Arabia for the likes Bush, Cheney and his ilk. If we do, we will be war torn for centuries. Bush and Cheney are nothing but self-centered men.
Ninerdave
I, for one, approve of JWW’s strange rantings. Where he comes up with that shit I have no idea, but it’s amusing as all hell.
TenguPhule
The Floggings will continue until morale improves.
rachel
Maybe someone’s doing some kind of Turing test? Naw, not logical enough.
Bob In Pacifica
Let’s use some logic on the concept that “The Dems Are Cowards.”
Why would they be cowards? By now the vast majority of Democrats and Independents and enough Republicans want us out Iraq yesterday.
So the Dems aren’t afraid of the people.
Bush? What is Bush going to do? Kills thousands of American troops? Bush is a borderline psychopath but he doesn’t do these things on his own.
So let’s at least ascribe the Democrats’ fear to something that they can be afraid of.
How about an agency of the government that’s probably listened in on all their phone calls, read all their emails, can kidnap and torture people at will? The agency that’s undermined politicians, run coups, assassinations, etc., for the last half century. Looted banks, flown weapons around the world and flown drugs on the return flight back home, who always throw out that “national security card” whenever someone is close to getting busted. Now that’s something that a politician can legitimately be afraid of.
Yeah, the Dems are afraid. And I bet they’ve got reason to be.
The Other Steve
This must happen to you a lot.
TenguPhule
Does this mean Psychespoof admits he’s been wrong for the last four years he’s been wrong?
TenguPhule
Does this mean Psychespoof admits he’s been wrong for the last four years?
TenguPhule
The Department of Redundency Department strikes again!
wasabi gasp
Chuck Butcher
JWW
credentials first – I opposed the Iraq mess from the time it was first mentioned and I abhore torture.
Let’s see, bathroom silliness, I don’t hurt very easily, it pisses me off real bad, and being up to my elbows in somebody else’s blood doesn’t phase me a bit. I don’t have a bit of problem with military force, I object to stupid use of it and I object to illegal use of it and I particularly object to stupid lying illegal use of it.
All that said, and as pissed as I am at the Democrats for some things, I’m afraid George II has already proved he’d do something like leave the troops w/o supplies. For 2 reasons, 1) the GWB “legacy” & 2) save the R’s, yes he is just exactly that big a prick & I’ll bet you he’s told Congress that.
Robert Johnston
You may be joking, but it’s a pretty solid assumption that torture does work to serve the purposes of those ordering the torture. The world would be a much better place if everyone recognized the ultimately obvious fact that people ordering torture have no desire to elicit accurate and useful information.
Ellison, Ellensburg, Ellers, and Lambchop
Feith said no such thing, I’m sure.
He just said at an EAI speech this week that, although mistakes in the transition had been made, he thought Iraq would stand together now. If he really had said that we’d lost, then he’d truly be what Bremer called him, “the dumbest [expletive] guy on the planet.”
WE ALL FALL DOWN
I hate to burst your bubble, but it was apparent to many of us long before the bombs even started falling. It seems to me the only Democrats who didn’t realize it were the ones on the hill, and apparently the only reason why they didn’t want to admit it was because a bunch of loudmouth Republicans made it all about revenge for 9/11. WTF did Iraq have to do with 9/11? Not a damned thing! Republicans aren’t just the torture party, they’re the revenge party too!
WE ALL FALL DOWN
Well, it’s such a controversial issue, you know. ;)
Michael D.
I wish Psycheout would stop posting. I know s/he’s a spoof, but if you’re going to be a spoof, at LEAST be clever about it. Er, LOL!
Michael D.
Well, nearly 4000. Yes, that among other things.
Ted
You’re just sure Feith didn’t say the war in Iraq has been lost in the WaPo, yet you weren’t informed enough to know that it wasn’t Bremer that called him the stupidest fucking guy on the planet, but General Tommy Franks.
I know you guys have already thrown Bremer under the bus, in your long string of attempted scapegoats for the catastrofuck in Iraq. But you can’t just pin everything on him or any one person. It’s going to take many years of careful scapegoat-spreading and repetition to shake this one off.
Psycheout
Funny you should say that. LOL!
Redhand
Speaking of spoofs, I see that the inestimable “Darrell Bottoms” is posting again too. Another incorrigible non-entity, nicht wahr?
Gebghis
It seems to me that cutting funding for Blackwater and Haliburton would be the way to go. Give all the money needed for our troops, but none for private contractors. I realize that some support functions can only be done by outside contractors, but start by taking away the plums, the most profitable jobs. If the US military can’t handle them, adjust the mission.
Even my 15 year old daughter commented about Blackwater, noting that Machiavelli said to never use mercenaries.
I gather the idea is they turn on you eventually.
ThymeZone
Just for the record, we’re looking at around 28k American casualties, and around 80k Iraqi violent death numbers depending on whose charts you are looking at.
Cyrus
This is not comprehensive, unfortunately; I only have so much sanity to spare.
This is a run-on sentence, and the comma after “say” isn’t needed. Also: “your girl?” How old are you, if you don’t mind my asking?
You should have a space between “daily” and the parenthesis. Also, you misspelled “trivial.” And apart from grammar or spelling, the implication that you only change your mind about trivial things is hilarious.
You left out the word “been” after “have.” You misspelled “worthless.” You also should have an apostrophe at the beginning of “‘Nuff said,” to indicate that it’s truncated from a longer word.
I give up.
MikeL
Getting Psycheout to not post is super easy. Just ask him a difficult question like
Trust me, he’ll have nothing to say! Not here, not on his own page. He’ll treat it like GWB’s torture record – pretend it doesn’t exist.
Phoenician in a time of Romans
The answer is simple: defund the Secret Service and forbid any other agency from taking over their duties…