The Nut Of It

Ezra:

This is the politics of hate. Screaming, sobbing, inchoate, hate. It would never, not in a million years, occur to me to drive to the home of a Republican small business owner to see if he “really” needed that tax cut. It would never, not in a million years, occur to me to call his family and demand their personal information. It would never occur to me to interrogate his neighbors. It would never occur to me to his smear his children.

The shrieking, atavistic ritual of personal destruction the right roars into every few weeks is something different than politics. It is beyond politics. It was done to Scott Beauchamp, a soldier serving in Iraq. It was done to college students from the University of California, at Santa Cruz. Currently, it is being done to a child and his family. And think of those targets: College students, soldiers, children. It can be done to absolutely anyone.

This is not politics. This is, in symbolism and emotion, a violent group ritual. It is savages tearing at the body of a captured enemy. It is the group reminding itself that the Other is always disingenuous, always evil, always lying, always pitiful and pathetic and grotesque. It is a bonding experience — the collaborative nature of these hateful orgies proves that much — in which the enemy is exposed as base and vile and then ripped apart by the community. In that way, it sustains itself, each attack preemptively justifying the next vicious assault, justifying the whole hateful edifice on which their politics rest.

I used to mock Dave Neiwert when he called these guys proto-fascists. Hell, I used to link half these folks, have them on my blogroll.

I was wrong. Dave was right. These people are authoritarian thugs.

142 replies
  1. 1
    Mooser says:

    Nice of you to notice. At this late date.

  2. 2
    The Populist says:

    These people are the equivalent of the royalists in the Revolutionary war. They are basically elitists who have created a loyal army of dittoheads who will do anything to make their masters happy.

  3. 3
    mk says:

    Yes, John. They are thugs. Well said by Ezra. This is a group with the instincts of a wild pack of dogs.

    It is beyond grim. It’s gruesome.

  4. 4
    Ken says:

    My realization that the Republican Party was veering in a, shall we say, authoritarian direction came with this New York Times story from 1992, newly liberated from behind their wall:

    http://preview.tinyurl.com/2xqpby

    Headline: “Campaign Tactics: GOP’s Young Confrontation Corps”

    Summary: In Houston, during the GOP national convention of 1992, Democratic party officials were trying to hold a press conference at a restaurant. “About 100 young Republicans … pounded on the windows, shouted and waved signs that read “Family Rights Forever, Gay Rights Never” and “Inhale This!”

    Now, young people will be young people, and I can write off a lot to youthful excess. But when the Republican Youth Coalition intimidation brigade returned to the Astrodome…

    *** A REPUBLICAN PARTY CHAIRWOMAN WAS PRAISING THEM FOR THEIR ACTIVITY ***

    “I saw you take on the other side’s rally the other day and that was great. We’re really proud of you.” — Jeanie Austin, a co-chairwoman of the Republican National Committee.

    I remember reading this 15 years ago and going “Oh boy, is America in trouble…” (and at that point I swore to never again vote for another Republican.)

  5. 5
    sparky says:

    Well put. And though it’s been said before, I think you deserve a great deal of credit for being able to say you were wrong without any self-protecting evasions. I may sometimes disagree with your politics but I respect intellectual honesty.

    As for the thugs, I think they’ve always been here, just not quite so readily identifiable before. What bothers me is that their kind of activities have become acceptable in some fashion. It’s as if the KKK came back, but without the need to wear masks.

  6. 6
    Mike S says:

    The only thing I see wrong with Ezra’s post is the ast graf. It implies that these idiots have the courage to get physical. They are cowards to the core. If this 12 year old kid said “BOO” to them they would pee their pants.

  7. 7
    Dreggas says:

    Mike S Says:

    The only thing I see wrong with Ezra’s post is the ast graf. It implies that these idiots have the courage to get physical. They are cowards to the core. If this 12 year old kid said “BOO” to them they would pee their pants immediately suffer a coronary because they’re out of shape fat lazy bastards who ate too many dunkin donuts.

    Fixed.

  8. 8
    Andrew says:

    I’d put money on the poor injured kid in a street fight against Jonah Goldberg, Rich Lowry, and Bill Kristol combined.

  9. 9
    Shade Tail says:

    Mike S: I wish I could believe that. Remember about a year ago, that fellow who mailed fake anthrax to several media pundits and politicians, including Keith Olberman and Hilary Clinton? Who was it he claimed to get his inspiration from? Was it Malkin or Coulter? I don’t remember off-hand. But these hate-mongers are already inciting some very serious threats and anger against people they hate, which includes basically anyone who doesn’t toe the “socialism is pure evil” line. I wouldn’t be surprised if there already has been direct violence that I just haven’t heard about. And even if there hasn’t, there will be sooner or later. Probably sooner, the way things are going.

  10. 10
    Rex says:

    These are authoritarian thugs and this is this week’s Two Minute Hate. Seethe into it.

  11. 11
    Ellison, Ellensburg, Ellers, and Lambchop says:

    Currently, it is being done to a child and his family.

    I haven’t been paying much attention to this latest bit of nonsense. What exactly has been done to a child? Investigating? I wasn’t aware that looking into a family’s finances (after that family had put itself on public, partisan display) was an example of “hate,” no matter how misguided that investigation is in its motive.

    If you want to “protect the children!” it seems unconscionable to use one of them to read the Democrats’ talking points on national radio. How about we leave the adult games to the adults?

    It would never, not in a million years, occur to me to drive to the home of a Republican small business owner to see if he “really” needed that tax cut.

    It would never occur to me to out a gay Republican, or to commit fraud to get their credit reports, or to seek to release divorce documents that both parties agreed would be very hurtful to their child… but well, there we are. Sorry, am I the first to inform EK that neither “side” wears a halo?

    It was done to Scott Beauchamp, a soldier serving in Iraq. It was done to college students from the University of California, at Santa Cruz. Currently, it is being done to a child and his family.

    So it is Klein’s not-naive-at-all(!) belief that when liars slander US troops and when protesters attack military recruiters, those who oppose such things should just shut up and take it? They shouldn’t attempt to out the lies and the liars, they shouldn’t attempt to contact the rock-chucking protesters using the information that was provided by the protesters on the internet, they shouldn’t try to investigate the Democratic shills?

    “If you’re a Republican, you should just take it. If you’re a Democrat…go nuts.” That’s a pretty, pretty, pretty convenient philosophy you have there, Ez. Not terrifically nuanced, but what do I expect?

  12. 12
    AkaDad says:

    I don’t think I can trust that 12 year old without a second opinion. I am going to need a video diagnosis from Dr. Frist…

  13. 13
    srv says:

    If it hasn’t been done already, I think we should adopt this:

    Stalker Malkin(tm)

  14. 14
    Pooh says:

    I haven’t been paying much attention

    This much is blatantly obvious. Thank you for spoofing.

  15. 15
    capelza says:

    I haven’t been paying much attention to this latest bit of nonsense.

    And then proceed to opine for several paragraphs…so you are talking out your…ear.

  16. 16
    Hume's Ghost says:

    Dave calls them pseudo-fascists, and calls groups like the Patriot Movement proto-fascist, although the distinction is quickly disintrigrating.

  17. 17
    Xanthippas says:

    Investigating?

    Yes, to the right, trafficking in lies and innuendo is considered “investigating.”

  18. 18
    Xenos says:

    So it is Klein’s not-naive-at-all(!) belief that when liars slander US troops and when protesters attack military recruiters, those who oppose such things should just shut up and take it? They shouldn’t attempt to out the lies and the liars, they shouldn’t attempt to contact the rock-chucking protesters using the information that was provided by the protesters on the internet, they shouldn’t try to investigate the Democratic shills?

    Let me see…

    College students confront recruiters, act in obnoxious and insulting manner. Conclusion: stupid, offensive, obnoxious behavior.

    Random keyboard commandoes launch anonymous harrasment campaign against students, including death threats. Conclusion: criminal, fascistic behaviour.

    Stupid analogical argument constructed out of patently false analogies. Conclusion: our pal EEEL is back in town.

  19. 19
    Quackers says:

    Remember a few years ago the woman jogging in Central Park who was viciously and mindlessly attacked by the gang of hooligans who were out ‘Wilding’? Malkin and her ilk are engaging in the blogoshpere’s equivalent of wilding. They have long made me think of a troop of Gibbons in the canopy who when they spy an enemy below swings into a group frenzy of hooting, screaming, and defecating down upon the hapless victim before they move on to whatever catches their fancy next.

  20. 20
    Ted says:

    Stalker Malkin™

    Haven’t seen that variation before, but the phrase “Stalkin’ Malkin” is all over the place now.

  21. 21
    Tracy says:

    They shouldn’t attempt to contact the rock-chucking protesters using the information that was provided by the protesters on the internet.

    Interesting. So posting the personal information of some naive college students so they can be tracked down, then posting it a second time when said college students request its removal because they’re receiving death threats, is just “contacting” them in your view. Just like calling to say “hi.”

    You know, a lot of people use e-mail today, but I just wrap my messages around bricks and heave them through the addressees windows. Same thing, right?

    Here, by the way, are a couple of those harmless attempts at contact:

    “You will pay for your seditious activities. It is only a matter of time…We are retired military snipers & we are watching you…”

    “I hope… one a fine young American very, very soon puts his shiny gun barrel up to your left temple and pulls the trigger. Now THAT will make America a much, much better place to live for the rest of us, you utterly disgusting piece of shit…”

    I also notice that some commenters responded by trying to post Malkin’s personal info on the college students’ website, and they took immediately took it down, responding that they weren’t going to “play that game.”

  22. 22
    sparky says:

    I wasn’t aware that looking into a family’s finances (after that family had put itself on public, partisan display) was an example of “hate,” no matter how misguided that investigation is in its motive.

    Suppose hate was the motive? Would that be an example?

    If you want to “protect the children!” it seems unconscionable to use one of them to read the Democrats’ talking points on national radio. How about we leave the adult games to the adults?

    You should have checked with der GOP before writing that one since they perfected it.

    It would never occur to me to out a gay Republican, or to commit fraud to get their credit reports, or to seek to release divorce documents that both parties agreed would be very hurtful to their child… but well, there we are. Sorry, am I the first to inform EK that neither “side” wears a halo?

    Waaah! Somebody hurt my side so I get to kill their side! Especially when the messenger has nothing to do with the message!

    So it is Klein’s not-naive-at-all(!) belief that when liars slander US troops and when protesters attack military recruiters, those who oppose such things should just shut up and take it? They shouldn’t attempt to out the lies and the liars, they shouldn’t attempt to contact the rock-chucking protesters using the information that was provided by the protesters on the internet, they shouldn’t try to investigate the Democratic shills?

    Dude! The space-time rip you just leaped through closed before I got to the end of that sentence! I’m still stuck in realityland! Also, I need a map to see how to get back to where we started. Or breadcrumbs, or string, whatever.

    “If you’re a Republican, you should just take it. If you’re a Democrat…go nuts.” That’s a pretty, pretty, pretty convenient philosophy you have there, Ez. Not terrifically nuanced, but what do I expect?

    Of course it’s convenient; after all, it’s yours. Nice of you to offer to share, after all these years of frequent use. But I suppose you’ll want to keep the brownshirts. And your other slogan, namely, if you’re not with us, we get to kill you. Mmmmm…homebaked authoritiarianism.

    PS I’m disappointed; I’d have expected you to use a slightly different tone than the usual Tom Buchanan-polo-match voice for this rally.

  23. 23
    wingnuts to iraq says:

    wingnuts–please go to Iraq.

  24. 24
    Bubblegum Tate says:

    But these hate-mongers are already inciting some very serious threats and anger against people they hate, which includes basically anyone who doesn’t toe the “socialism is pure evil” line. I wouldn’t be surprised if there already has been direct violence that I just haven’t heard about. And even if there hasn’t, there will be sooner or later. Probably sooner, the way things are going.

    Most disturbingly is that among these same groups, there has been an uptick of lamenting that we’re appraching yet another Civil War. Of course, they always couch it in the terms of an abusive husband: “If you liberals don’t stop doing things we don’t like, then we may have another Civil War on our hands, and wouldn’t that be a shame? If you liberals started a Civil War?”

    It’s on blogsforbush a lot these days (in fact, Mark Noonan says we’re already in the midst of a Civil War–just a nonviolent one thus far…as a bonus phun phact, Noonan also adamantly insists that Iraq is not in the midst of its own civil war and never really was close to it). They alternately lament the coming bloodbath that these darn liberals and their darn reality are, like, totally creating and express disturbing paranoia that somebody might be trying to take their guns away. It’s creepy.

  25. 25
    Davis X. Machina says:

    It implies that these idiots have the courage to get physical.

    They don’t. But after the withdrawal from Iraq, and the successful sale of a new Dolchstosslegende, there will be American Freikorps who do.

    We’re only seeing the prototyping and proof-of-concept phase.

  26. 26
    jcricket says:

    It’s definitely the 2-minute hate all over again. Keep everyone in a state of “perma-froth” and they’ll hardly notice that they’re taking their country and the world straight to hell. That they’ve violated every principle they claim to stand for, etc.

    And forget about InstaPutz, he’s a member of the “inner party” and enjoys his little luxuries. What does he care if it’s all a lie?

    Oh, and I look forward to seeing how much the American responds positively to this latest smear. Kerry got smeared and failed to fight back, but he was a politician. When they started going after the disabled (Michael J Fox) we got the first whiff of backlash against the politics of hate as practiced by the right. Scratch that, first whiff of backlash was the Shiavo mess. Second might have been MJF. This is the trifecta.

    Much like their beliefs about non-whites, non-Christians and non-heterosexuals, the Republicans are on the wrong side of history when it comes to healthcare. Their demonization worked 15 years ago when people couldn’t see the trainwreck coming, but it’s not going to work again. The pattern is clear. They’ll fight it to the bitter end, but they will lose.

  27. 27
    Dug Jay says:

    I see that the faux outrage continues apace. Ezra is a sniveling little putrid fool that is way too young to remember the outrages inflicted on some of the people, mostly single women, who had the temerity to object to the illegal and obnoxious behavior of the 42nd President of the US, as well as the execrable actions of some of his minions who harrassed, physically and mentally, some of these same unfortunate souls.

  28. 28
    binzinerator says:

    Been reading Dave’s site since early 2004, with growing unease at what he was documenting. The parallels of what the GOP has become and authoritarianism were noticeable even then.

    We are seeing the Right do a slow slide down past authoritarianism, where fascism waits at the bottom. There are degrees between the two (as Dave points out), but I can see this descent is happening. With this organized stalking and intimidation and smearing of a child, I think they just passed a marker of sorts.

    When the organized violence begins, we can call it fascism.

    John, all the NSDAP had when it came to power was a ‘base’ of about 30%. No more than what the GOP has now. How many initially backed Pinochet? Dammit, that means it’s doable for these people. Not as a repeat, but a rhyme. It’ll be a unique-to-America version, not a copy, with its own unique villians who will resemble nothing like that little painter man, but who in their own way may turn out to be something worse.

    How many can nuclear war in the Middle East kill?

  29. 29
    The Populist says:

    Problem with these folks is they won’t listen to any request to remove the information.

    Some dude in one of the previous threads threw this nonsense about a Tennessee paper printing the names of those with concealed gun permits. Well first off, if I go get a guvmint permit, I understand that info COULD become public. If you dislike it, contact the paper and complain. They may listen if enough folks raise a fuss.

    Now we are talking about a blog that posts the personal info of a private citizen who’s kid spoke out about the SCHIPS. So in the rightwing world, anytime I hear an idiotic comment from a Republican Pundit, could we post their private info just to see if they live the life they claim they do? Of course we can’t (and shouldn’t). Problem is if you make this point to these maroons, they get angry and say the person had it coming or they shouldn’t use their kids for their propaganda.

    Funny, I saw an abortion protest the other day. I do sympathize until I saw a woman with three kids. Each kid had a photo taped to a sign of a dead foetus. Could I get her personal info and post it demanding she should lose her kids and what she’s doing is child abuse? NO! It’s NONE OF MY BUSINESS as long as the kids don’t look beaten or aren’t emotionally scarred.

    These Malkin/Limbaugh/et al folks will justify anything to sell their warped agenda.

  30. 30
    The Populist says:

    I would like to ask Malkin this question…how much do you make per year? Does your blog make any money? Who writes the checks?

    I feel since she’s a public figure, I have the right to know these things. I would guess she’s overpaid, her blog makes nothing and the RNC/Scaife/Moonies write all the checks.

    I wonder why people would sell their soul to a “movement” that hates the constitution so much?

  31. 31
    The Populist says:

    Dug, Dug, Dug…

    Clinton was not perfect, but I’ve read in many places he took criticism like a man. He ALLOWED the Limbaughs of the world to call his daughter the family poodle and his wife whatever they wanted.

    Sure, they fought back sometimes, but so do many in your favorite party. From what I could tell, I don’t remember Billy Bob ever doing the kinds of crap this President and his VP have done and I don’t remember Clinton ever trying to shred the Constitution for his own power trip.

  32. 32
    Mike S says:

    Remember about a year ago, that fellow who mailed fake anthrax to several media pundits and politicians, including Keith Olberman and Hilary Clinton?

    But that was just another act of cowardice. The idiot did it from the safety of his own home. There is no wasy that he would ever do it in person because that would be putting himself at risk.

  33. 33
    cleek says:

    It implies that these idiots have the courage to get physical.

    maybe, but i wouldn’t bet on it.

  34. 34
    whippoorwill says:

    Dug Jay

    I see that the faux outrage continues apace. Ezra is a sniveling little putrid fool that is way too young to remember the outrages inflicted on some of the people, mostly single women, who had the temerity to object to the illegal and obnoxious behavior of the 42nd President of the US, as well as the execrable actions of some of his minions who harrassed, physically and mentally, some of these same unfortunate souls.

    There you go again on the “But What About Clinton Meme”
    Give it a rest and join us here in the 21st century. Clinton liked girls, so what, or maybe you were just jealous of him.
    And for your information getting a blow job from a 24 year old consenting adult is not illegal nor obnoxious except maybe to repressed wingnuts like yourself.

    In fact I have prayed many a night that your King Bush might be serviced more often than he apparently is. If that were so, he may not drop as many bombs on brown people, and generally do things to cause the entire world to hate our guts.. Just a thought.

    I also see you’ve learned some new words like “execrable”. I’m so impressed with that, I can hardly stand it.

  35. 35
    cleek says:

    oops… meant to quote it this way:

    It implies that these idiots have the courage to get physical. They are cowards to the core.

  36. 36
    Dug Jay says:

    whippoorwill – I thank you, and agree that the word, “execrable,” appears to fit you most perfectly. Run with it, babe.

  37. 37
    Mike S says:

    cleek

    That once again proves my point. If the coward had courage he would have gotten out of his truck and attacked. He didn’t. He ran away like a little girl.

  38. 38
    Mike S says:

    Check that last comment. The little girls I know have more courage than that.

  39. 39
    PK says:

    Dug Jay,
    So Clinton got a blow job. Harping on that after so many years. Methinks someone is a teeny bit jealous!

  40. 40
    Jess says:

    Our democracy is in danger from these lunatics, but perhaps it’s always been in danger and we were just oblivious. As freaky as this shit is though, I’m pleased that so many Americans who do believe in democratic process and the constitution are standing up and speaking out. I wish there were more of them, but I do think the tide is turning and that we will pull through. We’re living in interesting times, folks.

  41. 41
    SP says:

    Dug Jay never met a blowjob he didn’t get that he liked.

  42. 42
    Ted says:

    If you’re not reading Dan Riehl’s take on all of this Frost family stuff, you’re missing out. The man has got to be one of the biggest, most vile bags of shit in blogistan.

  43. 43
    whippoorwill says:

    Dug Jay

    I see that the faux outrage continues apace. Ezra is a sniveling little putrid fool that is way too young to remember the outrages inflicted on some of the people, mostly single women, who had the temerity to object to the illegal and obnoxious behavior of the 42nd President of the US, as well as the execrable actions of some of his minions who harrassed, physically and mentally, some of these same unfortunate souls.

    And I was trying to compliment you Dug Jay and you go and get all…..Wingnutty on me. Very sad but not unusual.

  44. 44

    If you’re not reading Dan Riehl’s take on all of this Frost family stuff, you’re missing out. The man has got to be one of the biggest, most vile bags of shit in blogistan.

    He’s at the point where if he had just shown up on the blogging scene I would assume he was a spoof. (It’s almost impossible in general to tell spoofs from true believers at this point.)

  45. 45
    Gus says:

    Holy shit, can someone put a time limit on the whole, “but Clinton did…” Is there a Clinton version of Godwin’s law?

  46. 46
    chopper says:

    EEEL and Dug are right, 12 year old disabled kids are so totally fair game.

  47. 47
    Ben says:

    The hounding of this family really is one of the most remarkable examples of cruely I’ve read in a while. That aside, the most remarkable bit to me is the crowing over how big of a mistake the Democrats made in running this ad. Can Right Blogoland seriously believe that they are winning hearts and minds with this behavior?

  48. 48
    jcricket says:

    As Michael Berube put it on Ezra’s blog:

    OK, now I’ve got “the Frosts are really rich,” I’ve got “Duke lacrosse players,” and I’ve got “what about Clinton.” If someone will just mention Ward Churchill, I’ll have wingnut comment bingo.

    More importantly, I cannot let this go unaddressed.

    The man has got to be one of the biggest, most vile bags of shit in blogistan.

    Hey, he lives in lower blogistan. The great nation of upper blogistan and its citizens are duly offended by your insinuation that they are like the shit bags in lower blogistan (aka “the fever swamps”). We demand a retraction.

  49. 49
    Tractarian says:

    Am I the only one who thinks Dug Jay is really DougJ?

    Why, you may ask, would DougJ take a new spoof moniker that so closely resembles the old one? A-HA! You see, that’s exactly what he wants us to think….

  50. 50
    jcricket says:

    That aside, the most remarkable bit to me is the crowing over how big of a mistake the Democrats made in running this ad. Can Right Blogoland seriously believe that they are winning hearts and minds with this behavior?

    Uh, yes. The same people that thought questioning/making fun of Michael J Fox was a “winning” strategy. Or jumping on the “Free Terri, She can read!” bandwagon before that.

    They’ve so lost touch with reality, and spend so much time in the echo chamber (see also GW Bush) that they have begun to believe their own hype.

    I look forward to their massive attacks on Hillary (or Obama or Edwards) blowing up big-time in their face. The John Kerry “war criminal” stuff was so over the edge I don’t think people know what to make of it. But just try it again and see how it goes when the war’s a disaster, people are suffering despite an “OK” economy (OK as defined by the lining of the pockets of the shareholder class), etc.

  51. 51
    jake says:

    In that way, it sustains itself, each attack preemptively justifying the next vicious assault…

    Sounds like high school to me. And like high schoolers these crap weasels will either get bored and find someone new to bother or get scared when fun n’ games leads to someone losing an eye.

    Unlike high schoolers we’re dealing with adults, who really need to get a fucking grip.

    If this 12 year old kid said “BOO” to them they would pee their pants, ^claim he was a terrorist and demand he be sent to Gitmo.

    Because in Freeperville, RS, Terrorism = Anything that scares us.

  52. 52
    Ninerdave says:

    Wonder how long before stalkin’ Malkin goes peeping in Rebecca’s window.

    via sadly, no!

  53. 53

    […] Posted in GOP tagged conservatism at 7:35 pm by LeisureGuy What the conservatives are doing now. (John Cole is a conservative blogger, though a traditional conservative.) […]

  54. 54
    Aaron Baker says:

    What’s perhaps most grotesque is Malkin’s defense of her indefensible conduct: the worst kind of self-congratulatory smugness. You realize that she has no clue how despicable her behavior is, and then you realize that further thought devoted to her is thought wasted.

  55. 55
    Patrick Carroll says:

    Huh. After a quick census, I just realized that all the comments on this web site are being generated by about three dozen people.

    Really small change. I’m off.

    Enjoy your little echo chamber, you 30 out of 300,000,000 Americans.

  56. 56
    The Other Steve says:

    Huh. After a quick census, I just realized that all the comments on this web site are being generated by about three dozen people.

    Actually it’s just one. We’re all DougJ.

    Really small change. I’m off.

    Not surprised to see you bravely run away when challenged. Stay over at hotair… like a good bushie, an echo chamber is the only place you can survive.

  57. 57
    The Other Steve says:

    Most disturbingly is that among these same groups, there has been an uptick of lamenting that we’re appraching yet another Civil War. Of course, they always couch it in the terms of an abusive husband: “If you liberals don’t stop doing things we don’t like, then we may have another Civil War on our hands, and wouldn’t that be a shame? If you liberals started a Civil War?”

    In three months, Noonan will be calling for gun control, because liberals can’t be trusted with the 2nd amendment.

  58. 58
    jake says:

    Enjoy your little echo chamber, you 30 out of 300,000,000 Americans.

    Once again we must sit back and marvel at the investigative spirit of the average fringe muncher … Hey! Who let all of these Republicans into our little echo chamber?

    Oh well. Hanging out with the Maltease Malkin means never having to admit you’re wrong.

  59. 59
    Beej says:

    Here’s the really nasty twist in the right-wingers’ arguments. They argue: “The Democrats are to blame for using a child in a political way. They should have known he and his family would face all kinds of attacks.”

    What they fail to mention, of course, is that they will be the ones making those attacks. So let me get this straight, the Democrats are to blame for using a child in a political way because they should have known that the right-wing was a bunch of bottom feeding cretins who couldn’t make any kind of rational argument about why the SCHIP bill was a bad piece of legislation and so, of course, they launched personal attacks against the child and his family because, obviously, that is the way to prove the SCHIP bill was a bad idea.

    Oh God, I have a bad headache and I need a drink.

  60. 60
    EL says:

    I just found an interesting article in USA today http://www.usatoday.com/news/w.....chip_N.htm
    which details what we already knew: Graeme Frost has a scholarship and

    $55,000 in 1991 in a Baltimore neighborhood where “there were drug dealers and prostitutes on our street,” Bonnie Frost said. Halsey Frost, a woodworker, did most of the renovations, which are “still not done,” Bonnie said…
    The commercial property, which bloggers noted was bought for $160,000 in 1999, was intended to house Frostworks, Halsey’s business. It folded soon after, he said — partly because of the cost of health insurance.

    He has worked for small companies and is trying to restart his own business. She works part time for a consulting firm. The couple — who have four children in all —earned about $45,000 last year, well below the $55,220 limit for a family of six set under the original SCHIP program. Maryland’s program goes higher, to nearly $83,000 for a family of six. “We are struggling,” Bonnie Frost said. “We live paycheck to paycheck. ”

    Bloggers who helped circulate financial information about the family over the weekend backed off a bit Tuesday. “It’s the difference between Google and journalism,” said Rick Moran, who penned a piece for The American Thinker. “It’s been proven that the family was means-eligible.” His editor, Thomas Lifson, said, “It’s just more complicated than might have appeared in the first round of investigation.”

    So all the obnoxious insinuations aren’t true, the “investigation” that the freepers claim they did had no merit, and the behavior was incredibly vicious.

    I never say democrats go after kids the Bush administration used the same way, like the “snowflake kids” or the kid they used on Social Security. If you want to argue, argue on the merits of the program, not by insinuating the child doesn’t deserve help with health care.

  61. 61
  62. 62
    Chris Johnson says:

    Yeah, I’m DougJ too. It’s hard work!

    I’ve seen civil war talk in some pretty strange places. You can be on a cheesy image blog, totally sub-lower-blogistan and proud of it, and somebody can post a redstate/bluestate picture and troll, “We blue states are seceding from the Union- see ya!” and WHOA- incredible explosions of argument and emotion.

    Most of the blue state argument is along the lines of calculating how many military bases, how much industrial capacity etc. is in blue states.

    Most of the red state argument is either ‘WE WILL NUKE YOU LOL” or “hey, wait for me! Can my town join? Can you take Boulder, CO (etc etc)”.

    It’s wild to watch. Compelling, because we’ve seen so much other unthinkable stuff become reality.

    I gotta say, if such a thing ever happens, I hope all us blueys are as sharp and calculating as we’ll have to be, because it’s a hell of an interesting strategic situation.

  63. 63
    jenniebee says:

    Most disturbingly is that among these same groups, there has been an uptick of lamenting that we’re appraching yet another Civil War. Of course, they always couch it in the terms of an abusive husband: “If you liberals don’t stop doing things we don’t like, then we may have another Civil War on our hands, and wouldn’t that be a shame? If you liberals started a Civil War?”

    It’s on blogsforbush a lot these days (in fact, Mark Noonan says we’re already in the midst of a Civil War—just a nonviolent one thus far…as a bonus phun phact, Noonan also adamantly insists that Iraq is not in the midst of its own civil war and never really was close to it). They alternately lament the coming bloodbath that these darn liberals and their darn reality are, like, totally creating and express disturbing paranoia that somebody might be trying to take their guns away. It’s creepy.

    I’ve been reading a lot of Lincoln lately, spurred by Goodwin’s Team of Rivals. What struck me most, and continues to strike me, is how much the Antebellum South played this same game. Their constant tactic was to tell the North that they were going to have their way, period, and that nothing short of force was going to stop them. They couched it in different terms at different times, but it was always the same: the South wanted to protect their “right” to have slaves by constantly expanding the number of slave states so they could continue their lock on the Senate, and if they didn’t get their way, they would secede, the Union would be dissolved, and it would all be the fault of the North for not giving in to another oh-so-reasonable demand for the expansion of the South’s political power.

    What Lincoln said about it was that it was like a highwayman holding a gun to a man’s head and saying: “give me your money or I shall be forced to shoot you and then you will be a murderer!”

    So here’s Malkin, not doing any “investigating” at all, because nothing she’s doing is questioning the assertions the boy made in his statement: there is no doubt he was in an accident, that he was in a coma, that his sister has brain damage, or that S-CHIP paid for their medical treatment – no, she is using the cover of “investigating” to muck-rake a family and “report” her own baseless suppositions about whether the family could possibly purchase private health insurance. She can’t argue with the substance of his statement, so she attempts sly innuendos against his parents’ characters instead. But it isn’t her fault! Democrats forced her to do this by “hiding” behind children! And how did they do that? By passing a law that would give health insurance to children. And then they had the temerity to introduce the infinitesimal portion of the country that listens to the Democrats weekly radio address (wtf?) to one of the beneficiaries of that health insurance! It isn’t fair to Malkin that the beneficiary is so sympathetic or that the program is so popular, and that sympathy and popularity justifies her own extraordinary measures, because no ordinary measure can keep the other side from being sympathetic an popular and that just won’t do.

    Stop trying to help children, Democrats, she says, or you will force me to “investigate” their families, exposing the poor dears to the rough and tumble, cutthroat world of Malkin-style politics. That’s Poster Child Abuse sez Malkin, and when it happens, Malkin isn’t to blame.

  64. 64
    scarshapedstar says:

    You know, in Schindler’s List, when the Jews are being herded out of town and there’s a crowd of kids shouting “Goodbye, Jews!” and throwing stones?

    Well, they’ve grown up.

  65. 65
    The Other Andrew says:

    On the one hand, this is par for the course, but on the other, I get the distinct whiff of blood in modern conservatism’s water. The straw men they’ve relied on for so long are rapidly becoming humanized. I haven’t seen legit moderates like John or Joe Gandelmann get this upset in quite some time–this is striking some deeper chord, I think. The increased pushback from the right tells me that they’re terrified…they aren’t used to this kind of confrontation. This is like Schiavo 2.0 in the sense that the public is reacting in horror at their actions, rather than marching in lockstep.

    The Petraeus PR campaign was a failure, immigration-minded conservatives are still carrying a grudge, the middle class is losing patience with their sunny rhetoric, the war fluctuates between being an albatross around their neck and being an anvil around their neck, and now, they’re losing ground with the center on the healthcare front. I know that this has been a teflon administration, but I think we’re near the breaking point.

  66. 66
    TenguPhule says:

    I was wrong. Dave was right. These people are authoritarian thugs.

    The Liberalization of John Cole is almost complete.

    All we need is the GOP to hire Steely McBeam as their spokesman for the primary and the Bloody Purging may commence.

  67. 67
    anon says:

    Once again, John Cole admits that he’s a shortsighted knownothing who gets paid for his opinions. Yea, America internets!

    I like teh Neiwerts for lik foor years! And I wuz never a stoopit Bush votr. And I nevr wanted Irak wars.

    I can has paychex?

  68. 68
    TenguPhule says:

    So let me get this straight, the Democrats are to blame for using a child in a political way because they should have known that the right-wing was a bunch of bottom feeding cretins who couldn’t make any kind of rational argument about why the SCHIP bill was a bad piece of legislation and so, of course, they launched personal attacks against the child and his family because, obviously, that is the way to prove the SCHIP bill was a bad idea.

    Exactly. Welcome to Crazyworld.

    Population: Far too many for our peace of mind.

  69. 69
    TenguPhule says:

    When the organized violence begins, we can call it fascism.

    I think we’ll be able to call it by its proper name, Terrorism.

    My two consolations about a Hillary Presidency:

    1. Lots of Rightwingers experiencing Suicide by Cop/Feds

    2. Spying/Kidnapping/Torturing Republican Season begins.

  70. 70
    Hume's Ghost says:

    Mark Noonan is a proto-fascist. He is more extreme that Malkin by exponential factors (he’s in favor of public lashings with a bullwhip.)

    Here’s a dandy from him

    http://www.blogsforbush.com/mt.....tween.html

    What remains of the Judeo-Christian west (70% of America, 40% of Canada, 20% of Europe) is under double-siege: beset on all sides by Islamo-fascists and leftist who, for varying reasons, want it destroyed. Caught between these two fires, it is often hard to figure out whom to fight first. As for me, I reckon that the external enemy is the greater threat, but in the by and by we must finally confront the domestic left and force it out of power and influence.

  71. 71
    DougJ says:

    Am I the only one who thinks Dug Jay is really DougJ?

    I wish I’d actually thought of that.

  72. 72
    Peter Johnson says:

    Me thinks the left doth protest too much. No one said the kid was fair game. They simply said that if the Democrats are going to use him as a prop, then his families financial sit deserves scrutiny.

    No one has actually threatened anyone here — unlike the many threats Michelle has received from leftist loons. You’re all making a mountain out of a mole hill.

  73. 73
    Anne Laurie says:

    Davis X. Machina Says:

    But after the withdrawal from Iraq, and the successful sale of a new Dolchstosslegende, there will be American Freikorps who do [have the courage to attack their enemies physically].

    We’re only seeing the prototyping and proof-of-concept phase.

    I’m afraid, literally afraid, that you’re right about this. These disgusting attacks on a brain-damaged gradeschooler aren’t just to “rally the Reichtards”, or even to punish the Doubleplusungood Expersons who fail in their duty to keep reality from obtruding into the Bush Universe. They’re deliberate reminders to the rest of us Good Germans that Deviationism will be punished — that speaking up against the erosion of our Constitution, our liberties, and our common sense will draw the attention of the Malkintents and all their half-bright media cheerleaders.

    The Chinese proverb says “Kill a chicken to scare the monkeys”. As Lenin and the Stasi proved, you don’t need a majority, or even a large minority, of the people to *agree* with the Dictator… just enough of a committed minority (28%?) to attack, assault, murder anyone who publicly displeases Dear Leader. Given a few more Frost Family Jihads, how many of us will decide (for example) that voting for a Republican is impossible, but voting for a Democrat might be… unwise… and therefore we just won’t go near our polling places at all? Because if continuing the Bush Legacy by jury-rigging become impossible, does anyone believe Karl Rove’s ratfckers are too honest to try ensuring that only those “committed to Right-eousness” (plus some disposable minority of brave, crazy moonbats who don’t have families or jobs or businesses to worry about) even bother showing up on the first Tuesday in November?

  74. 74
    Hume's Ghost says:

    “No one said the kid was fair game.”

    “If a political party is desperate enough to send a boy to do a man’s job, then the boy is fair game. ” – Mark Steyn

  75. 75
    jnfr says:

    Sorry Peter Johnson.

    From Mark Steyn:

    If a political party is desperate enough to send a boy to do a man’s job, then the boy is fair game.

  76. 76
    jnfr says:

    Damn, slipped by a Ghost.

  77. 77
    The Other Andrew says:

    Peter–the family was scrutinized and found to be a struggling, middle-class family that needed some extra help due to a medical situation that private insurance wouldn’t cover. This is dangerous ground, for you. If you’re going to start saying that anyone with an SUV and a flatscreen TV is rich and doesn’t have need of the safety-net from time to time, you’re going to find yourself alienating most of America.

  78. 78

    I’m convinced that if Hillary wins the election, who she picks as her Veep will be vital because he/she will have a good chance of becoming President.

    Yes, these guys are THAT unhinged.

  79. 79
    EL says:

    Peter Johnson Says: Me thinks the left doth protest too much. No one said the kid was fair game. They simply said that if the Democrats are going to use him as a prop, then his families financial sit deserves scrutiny.

    No one has actually threatened anyone here—unlike the many threats Michelle has received from leftist loons. You’re all making a mountain out of a mole hill.

    No, they actually didn’t only say that the financial situation deserves scrutiny. They said that the family were receiving benefits they weren’t entitled to, which is demonstrably false. They made repeated phone calls to the family, coworkers, and friends. They also posted the family’s address. If I recall correctly, Michelle Malkin screamed to high heaven when someone posted her address, so it must not be such a small molehill after all.

    The irresponsible right (as distinct from those who are responsible) decided that instead of arguing the program on the merits, they’d go after the kid and his family. I’ve seen posts in several places castigating the kid and his family for being a “prop,” as you put it. The attachers can’t credit that the family and child might recognize what this program did for them, and how important it might be to others. That they might honestly believe the program was important and should be expanded.

    Such dismissal smacks of Rush Limbaugh unable to believe the VoteVets soldier’s honest convictions, or thinking Michael J Fox was “faking.”

  80. 80
    HH says:

    “It is the group reminding itself that the Other is always disingenuous, always evil, always lying, always pitiful and pathetic and grotesque.”

    Visit Media Matters lately?

  81. 81
    libarbarian says:

    This is all a show

    I had an epiphany over lunch.

    This is all about “prepping the battlefield” for the 2008 election. No matter who they run against, but especially Hillary, they are going to use the specter of “Socialized Medicine” against him/her. They used the SCHIP bill to start the process early and get the issue out in front of the news.

    The reason why Bush’s reasons for vetoing this bill make no sense is because they have nothing to do with the bill itself. The reason Bush vetoed this bill was because vetoing a popular bill is a newsworthy event and it gives them ample opportunity to send the troops out to spew talking points whenever the issue is on the news. Sure, Fox news would run a “Are Dems trying to sneak socialized medicine past us” pseudo-story for no reason, but to REALLY get it out there on REAL news wires you want to piggyback on a real story.

    As for the stalking of the Frosts –
    Its important for these people to be able to believe that poverty is the fault of poor people. That means poor people have to be irresponsible and responsible people can’t be poor. They need to find out enough about these people to confirm either stereotype (that they are not really poor and/or are irresponsible people at fault for their own predicament.

  82. 82
    jcricket says:

    I don’t think the arguments against “socialized medicine” are going to be the rallying cry they were 15 years ago for the right.

    So many people I know suffer from being uninsured (because they started their own business, became unemployed) or underinsured (me/my wife with ever worsening benefits each year). Or they got old and sick (heaven forbid), but not old enough for medicare.

    With everything else going on, and Americans feeling their healthcare worsening every minute, I don’t think it’s a slam dunk issue for the Republicans anymore. Especially if they go after the kids (say what you will, vetoing kids anything is a loser for Republicans).

  83. 83
    TenguPhule says:

    No one has actually threatened anyone here—unlike the many threats Michelle has received from leftist loons.

    Wonderful spoof from Peter Johnson.

    But you need to drink more before posting to get the Insane Rightwinger Idiot act down pat.

  84. 84
    r€nato says:

    Here’s the really nasty twist in the right-wingers’ arguments. They argue: “The Democrats are to blame for using a child in a political way. They should have known he and his family would face all kinds of attacks.”

    shorter wingnuts:

    “The cunt deserved to get raped. She was wearing a short skirt, she was just asking for it.”

  85. 85
    r€nato says:

    From Mark Steyn:

    If a political party is desperate enough to send a boy to do a man’s job, then the boy is fair game.

    That’s great, I don’t like what Mark Steyn writes… anyone got his address and phone number?

  86. 86
    Bolo says:

    This is a-ways down the comment thread, but: Welcome John. Not “welcome to the progressive side” or “welcome to the Bush haters side.” No, instead I welcome you to the side that values liberty, human rights, and sanity. There is no movement that currently has a monopoly on these traits, though I will admit the progressives are getting pretty close.

    And if it makes you feel any better, I had my own “oh shit!” realization moment back in mid-2003. I’ve spent the last 4 years since then educating myself about the world and realizing just how wrong I was. It’s painful to think of how dumb I was (politically, socially) in the years before that.

  87. 87
    Mr. M'Choakumchild says:

    I’m convinced that if Hillary wins the election, who she picks as her Veep will be vital because he/she will have a good chance of becoming President.

    Yes, these guys are THAT unhinged.

    Ever notice how Obama and Pelosi keep talking about how they need to not get tied up in oversight, but to let the past be past and just rebuild for the future? They may plan thorough oversight after the fact, and to put a generation of GOP crooks in jail, but they dare not mention it. Anthrax version 2.0 is being prepared somewhere.

    The criminality runs so deep, the corruption so profound, that there is good reason to expect another wave of assassination in the next 20 years – I think it is smart for Democrats, at this point at least, to soft-peddle the need to investigate upon taking power.

  88. 88
    John Rohan says:

    Yes, let’s listen to Ezra Klein, in all of his wisdom (the ripe old age of 23), and experience (no real life work experience other than writing for blogs right from college), and vast education (BA in political science), while he screams out insults, doing the very thing he’s accusing his opponents of doing.

    Incidentally, he cannot (and neither can you all) give a single example of anyone “smearing” this child. Nor can any of you show where anyone has attacked this family except in regard to their finances, which they decided to throw into the public spotlight. Plus, household finances are integral to the debate over S-CHIP.

  89. 89
    josephdietrich says:

    Nice ad hominem John Rohan. A little late in the thread, though.

  90. 90
    blackfrancis says:

    nice to see this up today:

    Frost family draws ire of conservatives

    By Matthew Hay Brown | Sun Reporter
    October 10, 2007

    But while the Frosts were helping a bipartisan majority in Congress sell a plan to expand the program, they were not prepared for comments such as this one, posted over the weekend on the conservative Web site Redstate:

    “If federal funds were required [they] could die for all I care. Let the parents get second jobs, let their state foot the bill or let them seek help from private charities. … I would hire a team of PIs and find out exactly how much their parents made and where they spent every nickel. Then I’d do everything possible to destroy their lives with that info.”

    http://www.baltimoresun.com/ne.....b01_layout

  91. 91
    cleek says:

    John Rohan, please provide your age, educational background and employment history, so we can properly judge your qualifications. SSN and/or state driver’s license number be required for verification of your information, of course.

    until then, we’ll just have to discount your opinion entirely.

  92. 92
    whippoorwill says:

    John Rohan

    Remember the “Snow Flake Children” Bush paraded out for the TV cameras during the debate over embryonic stem cell research.
    Most of us on the left rolled our eyes and some attacked the Bushies for using children as political props.. But no one on the pro-stem cell side went after the families of these kids or even remotely considered such a thing. There was no snooping into medical records or personal lives of these people, which by your snake-ish reasoning would have been completely appropriate.

    Rohan, you and your fellow Malkinites have given the world a full frontal view of who you really are on this one and it ain’t pretty. See you in ’08.

  93. 93
    Peter Johnson says:

    “If a political party is desperate enough to send a boy to do a man’s job, then the boy is fair game. ” – Mark Steyn

    First, I don’t read Mark Steyn. I never even heard of him until now. Second, I’d like to hear the context of that quote.

    Guys, don’t you have better things to worry about than if Michelle drives by some house in Baltimore?

    And, John, you’ve really changed since RedState. And not for the best.

  94. 94
    Bombadil says:

    The Liberalization of John Cole is almost complete.

    It won’t be complete until he acknowledges that this sort of demonization is directly related to that perpetrated on a certain Gold Star mother — demonization in which he played a big part.

  95. 95
    LITBMueller says:

    Of course, we all fell right into the Rovian trap, here. We’re spending hours discussing political motives and tactics and the efforts of the Wingnutosphere to kill the messenger and not even discussing the merits of the legislation.

    Or the fact that we spend what it would cost to fund the legislation every 40 days in Iraq…

  96. 96
    chopper says:

    Here’s the really nasty twist in the right-wingers’ arguments. They argue: “The Democrats are to blame for using a child in a political way. They should have known he and his family would face all kinds of attacks.”

    i know. it’s like some dude kicking the crap out of his wife and yelling ‘look what you made me do!’

  97. 97
    Peter Johnson says:

    We’re spending hours discussing political motives and tactics and the efforts of the Wingnutosphere to kill the messenger

    More overreaction here! No one has talked about “killing” anyone.

    But if you really want to talk about the legislation iteslf, let’s god. SCHIP is flawed legislation. It’s backdoor socialization of medicine. Democrats are using the reauthorization of the SCHIP to usher in and promote a government-run, government-mandated health care system. This shouldn’t be a surprise because Democrats plotted this strategy all the way back in 1993.

    It’s not clear that their final aim, universal health care with a single government payer, is even constitutional. But neither was Roe v. Wade or the income tax, so no surprise there.

  98. 98
    John Cole says:

    John Rohan, please provide your age, educational background and employment history, so we can properly judge your qualifications. SSN and/or state driver’s license number be required for verification of your information, of course.

    Fat chance. John Rohan isn’t even his real name.

  99. 99
    John Cole says:

    It won’t be complete until he acknowledges that this sort of demonization is directly related to that perpetrated on a certain Gold Star mother—demonization in which he played a big part.

    Bullshit- I never attacked anything about Cindy Sheehan other than her statements.

    After it was a runnning joke that I had a Cindy Sheehan obsession. I said some things to tweak TZ, but I always attaked what she said, and not her.

  100. 100
    Bombadil says:

    Bullshit- I never attacked anything about Cindy Sheehan other than her statements.

    After it was a runnning joke that I had a Cindy Sheehan obsession. I said some things to tweak TZ, but I always attaked what she said, and not her.

    Hee, hee — nice to know some things don’t change! All you have to do is mention Cindy Sheehan and John’s radar goes off, even this late in the thread!

    OK, no more tweaking. The whole “Cole’s Sheehan Obsession” thing was a joke and we all knew it, and played along with it. But the way other rightie sites treated her was just like their current treatment of the Frosts. I wish that you had been as vocally and vehemently disgusted at the personal attacks against her then as you are now regarding the attacks on the Frosts. They were as vile then as they are now and deserved as much contempt.

  101. 101
    Bombadil says:

    Hey, look at this — the Website of the Great Orange Satan is linking favorably to Balloon-Juice. In good company, too — Ezra, Digby and Crooks & Liars. I guess I was wrong, the Liberalization of John Cole is complete.

    The only thing remaining is to get on Atrios’s blog roll.

  102. 102
    Andrew says:

    I’m convinced that if Hillary wins the election, who she picks as her Veep will be vital because he/she will have a good chance of becoming President.

    Yes, these guys are THAT unhinged.

    Relax, don’t worry! Thanks to the unitary executive powers and precedents set under President Bush, Supreme Overlord Hillary Caesar will just be able to send all of the Republican Congresscritters to Gitmo.

  103. 103
    whippoorwill says:

    Peter Johnson says

    But if you really want to talk about the legislation iteslf, let’s god. SCHIP is flawed legislation. It’s backdoor socialization of medicine. Democrats are using the reauthorization of the SCHIP to usher in and promote a government-run, government-mandated health care system. This shouldn’t be a surprise because Democrats plotted this strategy all the way back in 1993.

    Wingnut talking points are cheaper by the dozen. Wingnut lies cheaper still.

  104. 104
    Cyrus says:

    He calls himself “Rohan” and links to shieldofachilles.blogspot.com. Couldn’t decide which movie you liked Orlando Bloom better in?

  105. 105
    Peter Johnson says:

    There are a lot of problems with the SCHIP bill. The bill ncludes provisions that manipulate this program to expand coverage to illegal immigrants and the upper class (that are already covered by private insurance). I’m not against giving the very poor some kind of assistance with health insurance. I don’t think Michelle is either. But people in 260G homes don’t need it. And it certainly better not go to illegal aliens.

  106. 106
    whippoorwill says:

    P. Johnson

    I’m not against giving the very poor some kind of assistance with health insurance. I don’t think Michelle is either. But people in 260G homes don’t need it. And it certainly better not go to illegal aliens.

    Watching wingnuts backpedal is almost like a sport around here, Johnson. But don’t go to fast you might hurt yourself and we wouldn’t want that. And God help us if we save an illegal brown baby. The little brat should have gotten it’s green card before getting sick, right.

  107. 107
    Bombadil says:

    Watching wingnuts backpedal is almost like a sport around here, Johnson. But don’t go to fast you might hurt yourself and we wouldn’t want that. And God help us if we save an illegal brown baby. The little brat should have gotten it’s green card before getting sick, right.

    Fish. Barrel. Bang.

  108. 108

    […] About this whole Frost debate is the obvious irrational belief that a 260k house in the heart of Butcher Hill in Baltimore is somehow a big deal. Granted, here in WV, depending on the area you live, a 260k house is something that could be pretty nice, but in most urban areas, 260k is nothing. From the comments: […]

  109. 109
    jcricket says:

    Hey, look at this—the Website of the Great Orange Satan is linking favorably to Balloon-Juice.

    Of course Orange is the color the devil prefers these days. Red was so played out, plus Red is the color of “God’s country” (the red states), so he had to change. Plus nothing rhymes with orange, so obviously it’s a word for deviants.

  110. 110
    jcricket says:

    It’s backdoor socialization of medicine.

    Socialization is such a “boogie-man” word. Is the government providing all our roads “socialism”? How about services like fire and police? I doubt you’d use that word to describe things that the government has a monopoly on that you agree with.

    If you want to have a factual debate about this fine. On every measure that counts (outcomes, cost, satisfaction, continuity of care, support for all businesses) it beats private patchwork insurance by a wide margin. Prove me wrong without relying on wingnuts (i.e. find me studies that contradict actually published papers, not ads with Harry and Louise). And don’t try the “Canada has wait times” or “Britain has funding problems” lines. Both true, but nowhere in those countries is the suggested solution scrapping their nationalized healthcare and going with what we have. None of the people who criticize the system propose that.

    I’m not saying universal government-paid-for healthcare is perfect (it isn’t). But it’s no longer enough to dismiss the idea because you think it’s “socialism” or that “government is always the problem”. That kind of rigid ideology has no place in the complex modern world.

    Taiwan provides a particularly good example of how a switch to single-payer medicine can be achieved in today’s world in a capitalist society without doing anything negative to the economy or healthcare. We’re a smart country, we can take all the lessons of other countries and combine them into a system that actually works better than all of them.

  111. 111
    John Rohan says:

    John Cole Says:

    John Rohan, please provide your age, educational background and employment history, so we can properly judge your qualifications. SSN and/or state driver’s license number be required for verification of your information, of course.

    Fat chance. John Rohan isn’t even his real name.

    Actually, I have told plenty of people my real name, and offered you the chance to contact me, like here:
    http://www.balloon-juice.com/?.....ent-371193

    Ever heard of a “nom de plume”? Hint: authors like Mark Twain or JK Rowling, for example, are not the author’s real names…
    It’s not really a secret, plenty of people know my name. I just don’t see the advantage of throwing it out unnecessarily. Unlike many other bloggers, I have a full time job and strive to keep my blogging and work entirely separate.

    Cyrus Says:

    He calls himself “Rohan” and links to shieldofachilles.blogspot.com. Couldn’t decide which movie you liked Orlando Bloom better in?

    Actually, I didn’t even make that particular connection before, thanks for pointing that out (but the Troy movie was rather poor, actually). But “Rohan” is actually a homonym of my real name.

    But to get back on topic, I’m still waiting for anyone to give me a quote by Malkin, Limbaugh or some other non-anonymous right winger, that is an actual “smear” against the Frost’s 12 year old son.

  112. 112
    Jake says:

    If a political party is desperate enough to send a boy to do a man’s job, then the boy is fair game.

    Sorry, is this Mark Steyn or Mark Foley?

    I love the way the fRighties have essentially admitted that they’re unhinged thugs with all the self-control and restraint of an angel duster. “You knew this would make me angry! You know what happens when I get ANGRY!” [Smash/pummel/destroy.]

    Perhaps we can get them a group discount at a decent rehab facility.

  113. 113
    LITBMueller says:

    But if you really want to talk about the legislation iteslf, let’s god. SCHIP is flawed legislation. It’s backdoor socialization of medicine.

    Cites? Examples? Ever think that maybe a lot of people in this country might actually be in favor of that? I know I am. I know a lot of businesses are, too, because health care costs are hurting them big time.

    Democrats are using the reauthorization of the SCHIP to usher in and promote a government-run, government-mandated health care system.

    Proof? And, even if true, is that supposed to be a BAD thing?

    This shouldn’t be a surprise because Democrats plotted this strategy all the way back in 1993.

    Those evil, plotting DEMONCRATS!

    It’s not clear that their final aim, universal health care with a single government payer, is even constitutional.

    I haven’t heard that one before, but I suppose this is a common talking point. Are we talking about universal healthcare being a violation of the Right to Privacy? If so, then this next bit is ironic.:

    But neither was Roe v. Wade or the income tax, so no surprise there.

    heh heh.

    There are a lot of problems with the SCHIP bill. The bill ncludes provisions that manipulate this program to expand coverage to illegal immigrants and the upper class (that are already covered by private insurance). I’m not against giving the very poor some kind of assistance with health insurance. I don’t think Michelle is either. But people in 260G homes don’t need it. And it certainly better not go to illegal aliens.

    Two things: first, you are ALREADY paying for the health care of illegal immigrants. New Jersey, for example, has what they call “charity care” for the indigent and uninsured. That includes illegal immigrants. So, someone who is indigent and uninsured who shows up in an emergency room with a gunshot room is guaranteed treatment, and the state pays for it with charity care funding which, of course, comes from our precious tax dollars.

    Next, I would agree that any universal healthcare program should be means tested. But, believe me, owning a $260G home doesn’t mean yer rich!

  114. 114
    Peter Johnson says:

    More heat than light there, Mr. Mueller. No one said the Frosts were rich. Just that maybe they should have given up the granite countertops and focused on paying for their own health care.

  115. 115
    whippoorwill says:

    Rohan

    “But to get back on topic, I’m still waiting for anyone to give me a quote by Malkin, Limbaugh or some other non-anonymous right winger, that is an actual “smear” against the Frost’s 12 year old son.”

    Jake just gave you “a quote”. However smearing people isn’t only done verbally. People can be smeared by the actions of others. In this case the actions of Malkin, and her buds speak volumes as to smearing the Frost’s.

    First they do some half ass investigation -peeping in windows, interviewing neighbors and co-workers, and begin drawing what turn out to be totally false conclusions that the Frost’s were rich and didn’t deserve S-chip, implying they were defrauding the government and hiding assets etc..

    When in fact they were in total compliance of the republican backed S-CHIP program. In my world that’s a smear.

  116. 116
    Peter Johnson says:

    Ever heard of a “nom de plume”?

    I don’t think this is really a literary crowd. Their idea of literature is probably Glenn Greenwald’s latest paperback.

  117. 117
    chopper says:

    “maybe they should have given up the granite countertops and focused on paying for their own health care”? what does that exactly mean when their kids are practically uninsurable?

    i mean, since when does a nice countertop cost $1000+/month in perpetuity?

    “you say that insurance for your family with your kids having major preexisting conditions that no insurance company wants to touch with a 20-foot pole costs too much? you say you can’t afford 1200 or so bucks a month for insurance? bullshit, you have a nice countertop!”

    do you have any basic grasp of economics?

  118. 118
    chopper says:

    Two things: first, you are ALREADY paying for the health care of illegal immigrants. New Jersey, for example, has what they call “charity care” for the indigent and uninsured. That includes illegal immigrants. So, someone who is indigent and uninsured who shows up in an emergency room with a gunshot room is guaranteed treatment, and the state pays for it with charity care funding which, of course, comes from our precious tax dollars.

    exactly. hospitals don’t work for free. the cost of providing services to the uninsured and broke gets passed on to the rest of us via higher insurance rates and taxes.

    unless you want to kick people out of the ER for not having the means to pay, the rest of us will always cover that cost in one way or another.

  119. 119
    chopper says:

    I don’t think this is really a literary crowd. Their idea of literature is probably Glenn Greenwald’s latest paperback.

    this coming from the guy who doesn’t even know that the term ‘kill the messenger’ is a metaphor.

  120. 120
    r€nato says:

    Guys, don’t you have better things to worry about than if Michelle drives by some house in Baltimore?

    I can tell you that if some asshole right-wingers started stalking me, I’d take after those pussies with a two-by-four and take my chances with a jury trial.

  121. 121
    r€nato says:

    Me thinks the left doth protest too much. No one said the kid was fair game.

    also, nobody is stalking the Frosts, or making threatening phone calls to them, or interrogating their neighbors.

    It’s one of the hallmarks of right-wing assholery that they just don’t know when to stop digging the hole deeper. Look at our so-called president, he’s the ultimate example of that.

  122. 122
    Egilsson says:

    Hey Peter Johnson, they don’t have granite countertops; they are made of concrete.

    Sorry, didn’t mean to interject actual facts there. Keep on with your warped worldview on your way to a permanent minority political status.

  123. 123
    LITBMueller says:

    Just that maybe they should have given up the granite countertops and focused on paying for their own health care.

    Huh? Did Stalkin’ Malkin sneak into their house and take photos, or something?

  124. 124
    Bubblegum Tate says:

    this coming from the guy who doesn’t even know that the term ‘kill the messenger’ is a metaphor.

    Seriously. What has Balloon Juice done to deserve such crappy trolls? This site used to boast the finest trolls and spoofs for miles!

  125. 125
    Buck says:

    You know, in Schindler’s List, when the Jews are being herded out of town and there’s a crowd of kids shouting “Goodbye, Jews!” and throwing stones?

    Well, they’ve grown up.

    -scarshapedstar

    BINGO! We have a winner.

  126. 126
    D. Mason says:

    I just have one question for the right wingers on this since they keep saying the Democrats caused this by choosing a child as a spokesperson. Who, other than a child, could provide a testimonial about the usefulness of a children’s health insurance program?

  127. 127
    binzinerator says:

    TenguPhule Said:

    When the organized violence begins, we can call it fascism.

    I think we’ll be able to call it by its proper name, Terrorism.

    I was referring to the nature of the political ideology behind the violence, not the acts of violence themselves. I can see I wasn’t clear at all in how I put it — I should have put it something like this: “When the organized violence begins, we can say we have fascism.”

    Consider that the paramilitary Brownshirts (the SA) were known as fascists, not terrorists, though the violence they carried out could be termed terrorism.

    Neiwert says this about the history of fascism:

    It was explicitly anti-democratic, anti-liberal, and corporatist, and it endorsed violence as a chief means to its ends.

    Niewert describes fascism’s guiding principles:

    In reality, there really are none. Fascism in the end is the manifestation, in the context of modern mass politics, of the raw will to power, the drive to achieve totalitarian control over others through any means necessary or possible.

    And Oxford political-science professor Roger Griffin, who Neiwert references, describes fascism this way:

    Fascism: modern political ideology that seeks to regenerate the social, economic, and cultural life of a country by basing it on a heightened sense of national belonging or ethnic identity. Fascism rejects liberal ideas such as freedom and individual rights, and often presses for the destruction of elections, legislatures, and other elements of democracy.

    Despite the idealistic goals of fascism, attempts to build fascist societies have led to wars and persecutions that caused millions of deaths. As a result, fascism is strongly associated with right-wing fanaticism, racism, totalitarianism, and violence.

    And terrorism is one of those violent means.

    When we see the rightwingnuts begin to use organized violence, I say it’s a sign the conservative movement has completed its transformation and has become full-blown fascist.

    As an aside, you no doubt have noticed how the wingnuts have, in one of their favorite propaganda ploys, equated terrorism with fascism by calling the AQ terrorists “Islamofascists”.

    Some fascists may be terrorists, but many terrorists are not fascists. But the right has attempted to establish the idea that one is the same as the other. This works in another way: they get to redefine what a fascist is. If and when the right goes fully fascist, people won’t know it for what it is.

    So. When we do see the rightwing organized violence I mentioned, it’s fascism, not terrorism.

  128. 128
    Ellison, Ellensburg, Ellers, and Lambchop says:

    Who, other than a child, could provide a testimonial about the usefulness of a children’s health insurance program?

    That only makes sense if the child wrote the speech. He did not. He was being used as a PR tool by adults who want power.

  129. 129
    John Rohan says:

    whippoorwill Said:

    “But to get back on topic, I’m still waiting for anyone to give me a quote by Malkin, Limbaugh or some other non-anonymous right winger, that is an actual “smear” against the Frost’s 12 year old son.”

    Jake just gave you “a quote”.

    Sorry, but “the boy is fair game” is not a “smear”. It could be a call for others to smear, but that’s not what I asked. Also, nobody produced a link or reference for it.

    First they do some half ass investigation peeping in windows, interviewing neighbors and coworkers,.

    Malkin drove by the house, and interviewed one neighbor. So what you just said is totally untrue, but don’t let that stop you now.

    and begin drawing what turn out to be totally false conclusions that the Frost’s were rich and didn’t deserve S-chip, implying they were defrauding the government and hiding assets etc..

    When in fact they were in total compliance of the republican backed S-CHIP program. In my world that’s a smear.

    Well, a wise man once said: “while you are furiously backpedaling, don’t fall on your ass”. Yes, the family’s claims about their finances were attacked, but that’s not what I asked. I asked when were the children smeared (per Ezra Klein and John Cole’s claim), and nobody can produce a single quote to back that up. Better luck next time.

  130. 130
    Cyrus says:

    Ellison, Ellensburg, Ellers, and Lambchop Says:

    Who, other than a child, could provide a testimonial about the usefulness of a children’s health insurance program?

    That only makes sense if the child wrote the speech. He did not. He was being used as a PR tool by adults who want power.

    Are his parents included in with those adults?

  131. 131
    Peter Johnson says:

    Sorry, but “the boy is fair game” is not a “smear”.

    No, it most definitely is not. And this is from people who think Tony Snow’s illness fair game. Who think that the Bush girls are fair game. Who think that Dick Cheney’s daughter is fair game. Who think our soldiers are fair game.

    There are people in the world much worse off than the Frosts who the left has declared is fair game. So why, I ask again, is it so wrong to declare the Frosts “fair game”?

  132. 132
    Bombadil says:

    No, it most definitely is not. And this is from people who think Tony Snow’s illness fair game. Who think that the Bush girls are fair game. Who think that Dick Cheney’s daughter is fair game. Who think our soldiers are fair game.

    There are people in the world much worse off than the Frosts who the left has declared is fair game. So why, I ask again, is it so wrong to declare the Frosts “fair game”?

    It’s now official. Peter Johnson likes pie.

  133. 133
    binzinerator says:

    No, it most definitely is not.

    Only a wingnut asshole can’t understand what’s wrong.

    Only a wingnut asshole doesn’t know what’s wrong with an organized effort to stalk, intimidate and smear a crippled 12-year-old boy, a brain-damaged girl and their family.

    Only a wingnut asshole pretends a child is ‘fair game’ because the lives of famous, well-known public political figures are not sacrosanct.

    Only a wingnut asshole insists because this kid spoke up for the medical care that made his recovery possible, he’s somehow a public political figure akin to the White House’s Press Secretary, who is a senior White House official with a rank just below that of a Cabinet member, and whose duties are to be spokesperson for the White House, and who left his post because he couln’t make ends meet on 168,000 bucks a year.

    Sure, that kid is just like the 38-year-old Mary Cheney, lesbian, unwed mother and hypocrite, who was on the board of the gay-friendly Republican Unity Coalition exactly because of the political usefulness of her sexual orientation provided, and whose personal lifestyle choices are deemed ‘off-limits’ by the same assholes who were busy demonizing and criminalizing anyone else who made a ‘personal lifestyle choice’ to be gay, especially if they wanted to marry and have kids.

    Sure, that 12-year-old kid is the same as the Bush ‘girls’, whose father has repeatedly told the nation how grave the threat is to our Nation, how the Iraq war is a Battle between Good and Evil where the existence of our nation hangs in the balance. Except, to borrow a phrase from John Cole, he didn’t mean it was so fucking serious that his own kids had to serve. Yeah, that’s the same.

    And only a sexist wingnut asshole refers to 25-year-old women are ‘girls’ as if they are minors, as if they are as helpless and defenseless as children, as if they were 12 years old. Only a wingnut asshole pretends fully grown women who have their own secret service detail, who are part of the most powerful and protected family in the nation, are somehow ‘girls’.

    Only a wingnut asshole doesn’t understand the difference.

    I can tell by what this boy said about SCHIP that he’s got moral sense. You don’t.

    Consider this, you hairless prick. Even as you excuse the attacks on him, even as you help bully him and harrass him, that boy has shown he has more courage by age 12 than you’ll ever have in your entire life.

  134. 134
    whippoorwill says:

    Rohan

    You quotes of wingnut smears then lookee here

    Malkin drove by the house, and interviewed one neighbor. So what you just said is totally untrue, but don’t let that stop you now.

    I wasn’t just talking about Malkin but also the Freeper’s who started this show. They got pictures of the peoples kitchen. Now how did they get those. And Malkin was also snooping around the Frost place of employment and more which you’ll find in the linked article above.

    Well, a wise man once said: “while you are furiously backpedaling, don’t fall on your ass”.

    That sound sounds familiar. Could be a night bird you here but never see.

  135. 135
    Chris Johnson says:

    When I think back on John’s ‘Cindy Sheehan obsession’ yeah, I do remember it being played for laughs. At its most intense it was like “That bitch! I hate her!”. Seems to me you’re allowed to hate that bitch, especially when you’re not going, “I think somebody should hunt down and kill her children! Oh wait”

    I also think that it’s a mistake to expect that you can bring up stuff like public roads with wingnuts and expect to get anywhere- or rather, if you do that and you start a proper debate, it’s not a wingnut, it’s someone you might want to listen to and respect their opinions even if you are unconvinced.

    If it’s a wingnut, you get surprised when the debate gets sidetracked into an attack on the moral value of something else- “Public roads? Yeah but illegal aliens getting socialized medicine are THIEVES” and if you go, you can’t externalize that cost, you’ll be paying it one way or another you get “You mean it will be STOLEN one way or another, what are you, a wuss that doesn’t fight back against thieves?”

    The litmus test there is, are you still talking about the concept being argued over, or did it become “You lose because you’re less powerful than me!” If everything comes down to, “You have to lose because you’re a wuss and if I was in charge I would be tough and there wouldn’t BE a problem” it’s wingnut time (at least as they currently operate) and you cannot counter it with trying to create a synthesis of ideas that meet most people’s needs as much as they can.

    The only way to deal with wingnut power politics is either to outpower them, or refuse to deal on that level at all.

    Outpowering them has bad points, even though it is inevitable as wingnut policies sort of succumb to entropy, because if you’re dealing with things on that level you’re not dealing with the actual subject at hand, just with personalities alone.

    Refusing to deal on that level only works when there are people who also want to attend to the subject at hand, which is why it’s a good strategy on things like health care for children. People (especially women?) will tend to go “Yeah fine you’re tougher, you’re really tough. Now what about those children?”. It’s a lot trickier on a subject like war where “yeah well I’m tough!” will sometimes seem- even be- relevant. Unfortunately dealing with the actual subjects at hand remains important even then…

  136. 136
    Chris Johnson says:

    This relates to Peter Johnson (sirrah, unhand that last name! You besmirch it! ;) ) as follows:

    If it’s all about whether somebody can be fair game, and if they are tough enough to be fair game, or if they’re so weak and pathetic that they cannot be attacked, are not fair game, AND THEREFORE CANNOT SPEAK for themselves and have to be discounted…

    …because God knows nobody could have a worthwhile idea if they can’t get in a fight and be stalked and harassed for it…

    …then we’re in wingnut-land and we’re not actually talking about the subject at hand at all.

    We’re talking about whether Michelle Malkin could take a 12 year old boy in a fight- and if she’s not allowed to fight him, YOU’RE NOT ALLOWED TO LISTEN TO HIM.

    Funny how that works.

  137. 137
    D. Mason says:

    We’re talking about whether Michelle Malkin could take a 12 year old boy in a fight- and if she’s not allowed to fight him, YOU’RE NOT ALLOWED TO LISTEN TO HIM.

    I’m not a rich man by any means but I would pay $1000 for a ticket to watch Michelle Malkin fight your average 12 year old boy.

  138. 138
    Raincitygirl says:

    John Rohan, you are correct that Mark Twain used a nom de plume, but I assure you that J.K. Rowling’s name really is Joanne Rowling. Try to get something right once in a while.

    Oh, and since you brought up Ms. Rowling in the first place, I should point out that she is an example of someone who “sponged” on government-run welfare programs when she was disadvantaged. She was the divorced, unemployed mother of an infant, living on the British equivalent of welfare (and insured by the NHS, incidentally), when she started writing. And now not only is she worth millions, but she’s enriched the British economy in a big way. I guess it would’ve been better to forego all the movies, the tourism tie-ins etc, for the moral satisfaction of not allowing a “welfare queen” and her baby to be subsidised by the government.

  139. 139
    John Rohan says:

    whippoorwill said:

    You quotes of wingnut smears then lookee here

    1) The only quote that article produces is one anonymous comment at Red State, which, btw, still doesn’t mention the boy. (And if comments are fair game, then I can find similarly vicious anonymous comments right here at Balloon Juice)
    Anyway, I’m still waiting for anyone to back up the claim of a smear or an attack against this boy by Right-wing pundits. C’mon guys… if it’s true it shouldn’t be that hard to produce a quote and a link should it? LOL

    Raincitygirl said:

    John Rohan, you are correct that Mark Twain used a nom de plume, but I assure you that J.K. Rowling’s name really is Joanne Rowling. Try to get something right once in a while.

    Better look at that name a little more closely yourself. Her full name is Joanne Rowling; in other words, she doesn’t have a middle name. The “J.K.” was an invention to make the authors name sound “gender neutral”.

  140. 140
    whipporwill says:

    Rohan

    “Anyway, I’m still waiting for anyone to back up the claim of a smear or an attack against this boy by Right-wing pundits. C’mon guys”

    Your question is a quick study in obfuscation. Your asking for a direct Ad Hominem attack personal to the boy. Wingnut leaders are stupid, but not so much as to directly assign personal derogatory remarks to a 12 year old. The Ad Hominem attacks instead were directed at the family as a whole of which the dependent children are an integral part of. If you can’t see the difference then we just live on different planets together with little common viewpoint of reality.

  141. 141
    anon says:

    John Rohan wrote:

    Also, nobody produced a link or reference for [Mark Steyn declaring Graeme Frost “fair game”].

    See jfnr’s post on October 10th, 2007 at 12:10 am.

  142. 142
    DavidTC says:

    Relax, don’t worry! Thanks to the unitary executive powers and precedents set under President Bush, Supreme Overlord Hillary Caesar will just be able to send all of the Republican Congresscritters to Gitmo.

    In my universe, the very first thing the president says upon entering office is something to the effect that in slightly less than two years, he or she will imprison Congress without trial or charges, and that she will veto or magically-signing-statement-away any law that would revoke any of the president’s supposed powers to do that.

    I.e., take Bush’s supposed powers and promise to use them against Congress.

    If they want to stop that, they know how to write and pass Constitutional Amendments, spelling out explicitly the limitations of the office of president, so this sort of fuckery never happens again.

    Or they can go to prison without a trial.

    No way in hell that would ever happen, but it’s a pleasant dream.

Trackbacks & Pingbacks

  1. […] About this whole Frost debate is the obvious irrational belief that a 260k house in the heart of Butcher Hill in Baltimore is somehow a big deal. Granted, here in WV, depending on the area you live, a 260k house is something that could be pretty nice, but in most urban areas, 260k is nothing. From the comments: […]

  2. […] Posted in GOP tagged conservatism at 7:35 pm by LeisureGuy What the conservatives are doing now. (John Cole is a conservative blogger, though a traditional conservative.) […]

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