This Mac is Killing Me

Look- I understand the reason you folks at Apple don’t include documentation for anything. It is supposed to be intuitive.

After 20 years of using Windows, it isn’t.

And not even a pamphlet for Final Cut Pro? Bastards.

And all these things across the bottom of the screen are giving me chest pains. Why is the aol one bouncing?

*** Update ***

And if anyone can come up with a reason why there is no knob to adjust the volume, I am all ears. Or how to insert a dvd and not have it take up my whole screen.

*** Update ***

And before I get too negative, I do love the 24″ monitor. It is beautiful. Figuring out how to use everything, however, can be summed up in one quick phrase:

iSuck

*** Update Eleventy-Three ***

Thanks for all the help, but WTF is “apple comma.” I see comma. I see no “apple comma.”






147 replies
  1. 1
    Ryan S. says:

    I’m not a mac person either, but I know a bouncing icon means that program is waiting for input from you.

    As for Final Cut you might follow the external wiki link here(PDF warning)

  2. 2
    John S. says:

    I share your pain, John.

    The ad agency I work for is probably the only shop in South Florida that doesn’t use Mac, because the art director (me) and the owner despise them so.

    I mean, who the fuck would think to drag a CD icon to the trash to eject a disk? That’s just plain retarded.

  3. 3
    Billy K says:

    So your decision was to buy a Mac and teach yourself Final Cut Pro at the same time? I’m gonna have to question your judgment whenever you post from now on.

    I’m a lifelong (nearly 30 years) Apple user. Post your questions on OS X, John. Final Cut Pro? You’re on your own. It’s a “real” app. I’m sure there’s someone here who knows it. (Not sure why you couldn’t just go with iMovie for what you said you wanted to do.)

  4. 4
    Billy K says:

    I mean, who the fuck would think to drag a CD icon to the trash to eject a disk? That’s just plain retarded.

    Or you could just press the “eject” button. Seriously. People got these ideas about OS9 ten years ago and have no idea what the modern Mac OS is about.

    Oh, and John, use the “help” key. It is actually helpful. (Or the help pull-down menu up top).

    Oh, and OS X doesn’t animate those icos – the applications do. For example, Microsoft Entourage does that and it drives me insane. You can turn it off in (Exchange) preferences. I’m sure it’s the same with the AOL icon.

    P.S. AOL? Really?

  5. 5
    Ryan S. says:

    I mean, who the fuck would think to drag a CD icon to the trash to eject a disk? That’s just plain retarded.

    I’ll see your trash disk ejector and raise you a “no built-in uninstall apps utility”.

  6. 6
    Bombadil says:

    P.S. AOL? Really?

    Yeah, I was going to ask about that, too.

  7. 7
    canuckistani says:

    I’ll see your trash disk ejector and raise you a “no built-in uninstall apps utility”.

    Not to mention shutting down with the “Start” button.

  8. 8
    Billy K says:

    I’ll see your trash disk ejector and raise you a “no built-in uninstall apps utility”.

    I really don’t want to be “The Mac Zealot” here, but….it’s like crack. I can’t resist knocking down the FUD.

    The uninstall app is your finger. Use it to drag the app to the trash. Empty trash.

    Would you REALLY rather have a “Wizard” just for that?

  9. 9

    If the aol users icon to the right of the bar continues to hop it means someone sent you a message, if its the actual AOL icon on the left of the bar it means the program is waiting for something or is behind another window.

    If you can get the older version of IMovie , that would do it all for you.

    What they are calling Imovie now sucks.

    Have used FinalCut and Premiere they are dense.

    As for ejecting cds with the trash – that is just not true, you can also right click the cd icon to get a contextual menu to select eject or use the eject key on your keyboard.

  10. 10
    Billy K says:

    John,

    Visit this blog

    It is, IMHO, the best Mac blog overall on the tubes. They have a weekly “Mac 101” series which is very informative for newbz, as well as an “Ask TUAW” thingy.

  11. 11
    UnkyT says:

    I mean, who the fuck would think to drag a CD icon to the trash to eject a disk? That’s just plain retarded.

    Or just press the eject button on your keyboard or the eject icon next to the disk in Finder. Next we will be hearing about the ‘one button mouse’.

    As for Final Cut, we have it here at my work and it came with about 10 lbs of manuals. Check out the various Mac forums. Tons of help there.

  12. 12

    But the Mac is the greatest thing on earth.

    As long as you don’t try to do real work on it. Just stick to iTunes and you’ll be fine!

  13. 13
    Jimmmmm says:

    Too dense for Mac?

    Give up. Seriously. I use Mac and WIN. Daily. There simply is no comparison. The software integration on a Mac alone makes WIN an impapatable option.

    Also, really, a wizard? A “wizard” is a middleman for something the user should be able to do intuitively. What the f##k is so hard to understand about that?

    And John S., I know of ONE Fla. ad shop that won’t be getting my company’s business. And it’s not because you refuse to use Mac.

  14. 14
    wasabi gasp says:

    Name dropping Final Cut Pro to temper the “You’ve got mail” problem is pretty slick.

  15. 15
    Zifnab says:

    Yes! Then you feel like you are actually uninstalling the app rather than deleting the icon. The last thing I want my mom doing is trashing an icon she doesn’t like off her desktop only to find out its whipped the program off her system.

    What’s more, for some of the niftier hacks and CD-Key work arounds, you need to replace the existing .exe file with a modded version. This requires you to delete the original .exe, which would uninstall the app and completely ruin the attempted hack. Lame.

    It’s 2007. Pick up a mouse, grab your balls, and learn to use a computer already. No more excuses.

  16. 16
    Ryan S. says:

    Except if there are other files associated with the app… oh like log files, preferences files and any other resource files. That dragging the app leaves behind. Which is all nice and dandy until you try and install the program again and it uses the SAME corrupted files again….(personal exp can you tell).

    Combine that with almost constant crashing, high priced software, and overpriced hardware. Its enough to make me seriously question the sanity of any mac owner.

  17. 17
    Billy K says:

    Yes! Then you feel like you are actually uninstalling the app rather than deleting the icon.

    So, you’d like a script that basically just tells you, “Uninstalling program now.” Maybe it could make some Star Trek sounds while doing it, too! That would REALLY make you feel like you’re doing something. Brilliant!

    What’s more, for some of the niftier hacks and CD-Key work arounds, you need to replace the existing .exe file with a modded version. This requires you to delete the original .exe, which would uninstall the app and completely ruin the attempted hack. Lame.

    What is this garbage? We’re talking Macs here. There is no exe.

  18. 18
    RSA says:

    A “wizard” is a middleman for something the user should be able to do intuitively.

    Sort of, but that’s the point. Wizards should be used to walk the user through a sequence of decisions, with the ability to move backward as well as forward, to do things that are either complex or rarely needed. One-time installation and configuration activities are reasonable examples, I think.

    Of course, it could be argued that most wizards are poorly designed or over-used. That might be true.

  19. 19
    Tim F. says:

    Hey you kids, get off my damn lawn!

  20. 20
    qwerty42 says:

    geeze. this could edge into an OS war. Maybe a few of the golden oldies:
    — which is better VMS or UNIX?
    — OS/2 or Windows?
    — Mac or Windows?
    many, many pixels were consumed by these in the past. Next: editor wars – vi or emacs?
    All this from an earlier age (“one ping to rule them all”)

  21. 21
    Tom Gellhaus says:

    I just lurk here most times, and rarely comment.
    I have a dual-boot Windows XP/Linux machine. The only reason it isn’t fully Linux is my addiction to – strike that, I meant love of – World of Warcraft.

    I don’t know much about Macs, having never used one.

    (It’s possible to run WoW in Linux but sound is a bit off and it is nearly impossible to update on a patch)

  22. 22
    Billy K says:

    You say:

    Combine that with almost constant crashing, high priced software, and overpriced hardware. Its enough to make me seriously question the sanity of any mac owner.

    But I hear:
    “Combine that with strawman, strawman and unsupported argument. Its enough to make me seriously question the sanity of any mac owner.

    Let me guess – you’re in IT?

  23. 23
    El Cruzado says:

    Yes! Then you feel like you are actually uninstalling the app rather than deleting the icon. The last thing I want my mom doing is trashing an icon she doesn’t like off her desktop only to find out its whipped the program off her system.

    You’ve been using Windows far too much. Same for your mom. It’s a lot better if things are what they appear to be, and your mom would be far less likely to ‘delete icons from the desktop’ if she knew that the stuff in there is actual stuff and not crap that the installers put around for no good reason (God am I tired of deleting those desktop things the Windows installers always put around).

    That said, and having firmly planted myself in the Defenders of the Mac camp, there’s some apps around that could use an uninstaller and don’t have one (iLife and iWork being the first two that come to mind). It’s not hard if you know what you’re doing (just delete anything with the apps’ names in /Library/Application Support), but there’s plenty of people who shouldn’t have to learn what they’re doing there.

  24. 24
    rawshark says:

    John, if you can’t get your Mac working correctly the democrats win. Think about that!

  25. 25
    Billy K says:

    Al Gore is on the Apple board. Think about THAT!

  26. 26
    Ryan S. says:

    geeze. this could edge into an OS war. Maybe a few of the golden oldies:—which is better VMS or UNIX?—OS/2 or Windows?—Mac or Windows?

    Unix rules all. I had a SCO server with almost 6 years constant uptime… no OS comes close.

    Win-XP better than mac anything…. Not gonna say a Damned thing about Vista(/spit)

  27. 27
    Fe E says:

    Hey you kids, get off my damn lawn

    Nothin’ quite like a Mac v PC flamefest to warm you up on a chilly fall day, eh?

    So what’s the deal with the one button mouse?

  28. 28
    Nylund says:

    Also, when you drag a CD to the “trash” the “trash” icon automatically changes to an eject icon so ejecting a disc by dragging it to an eject icon really isn’t all that hard to understand. Second. dragging a disc to the trash has been the way to eject a disk on a mac for over 20 years. TWENTY years is plenty of time to grasp that simple concept.

    I have the new iMac and a fairly new PC (10 months old). I grew up in Silicon Valley and remember my first 286. My Mom and brother were Mac fans from day one, and my dad was a PC buff. I grew up using both equally. These days I use the PC to run my mathematical modelling and statistical software packages (since many aren’t made for the Mac), and I use the Mac for everything else. Even though I only use the PC about 1/10th of the time I use the mac, I probably spend about 10 times as much time maintaining it (to deal with malware, registry issues, defragging, device conflicts, various installations/unistallations, etc.) This PC is only 8 months old and its already had to be wiped clean twice. Look at a PC crosseyed and it’ll crash.

    It scares me to death that my “important” work (ie economic and financial models) are on the PC. I back up religiously and pray to the computer Gods. I just got my fiance to finally toss her PC and get the new iMac as well.

    For the first time in her life, she doesn’t hate computers and I can’t pry her away from the thing. For the first time, her computer is a source of joy, not a constant issue that needs fixing. And, as a professional photographer, she’s blown away by how much better the Mac handles her photoshop and lightroom needs.

    I strongly believe that unless you must own a PC to accomodate a particular PC-only software, there is no reason to ever buy one. 15 years ago I wouldn’t have said that, but Microsoft is years behind Jobs and Co. in terms of making a reliable, stable, secure, and intuitive OS.

    Look at Vista (new see-through windows on the same crappy platform!). Many companies are requesting that their new computers DON’T come with it.

  29. 29
    Gus says:

    Zifnab, you do understand the irony of “the last thing I want my mom doing” with “learn to use a computer already” right?

  30. 30
    Billy K says:

    this could edge into an OS war

    I don’t see any amount of diplomacy stopping the buildup now. And it’s gonna make Liberal vs. Conservative/Left vs. Right look like childsplay. CHILDSPLAY, I tell you!

    Unix rules all…Win-XP better than mac anything….

    Does not compute…UNIX is part of OS X. Does not compute…error…error…

    So what’s the deal with the one button mouse?

    Oh lawd…you HAD to go there…

  31. 31
    RSA says:

    And if anyone can come up with a reason why there is no knob to adjust the volume, I am all ears. Or how to insert a dvd and not have it take up my whole screen.

    Function keys? Knobs would be reasonable for external speakers, I suppose.

    Start the DVD player, hit Apple-comma, uncheck “Enter Full Screen mode” under the Player tab.

  32. 32
    Alan says:

    Here’s a helpful site: My First Mac

  33. 33
    Gus says:

    I use ’em both. Windows is fine. Mac OS is better. Your mileage may vary.

  34. 34
    Jimitha says:

    John: don’t the new iMacs have mute/lower/raise volume buttons next to the eject key on the keyboard? They’re near the top of the keyboard in every Mac I know of.

  35. 35
    Billy K says:

    For the first time, her computer is a source of joy, not a constant issue that needs fixing.

    And that pretty much sums it up. My friends who have “switched” can’t get over that very thing. I know allt he techy folks will say, “it’s not that hard to run virus software/maintain a firewall, etc.,” but it IS for most people. They just don’t want to/can’t deal with it. Nor should they have to.

  36. 36
    RareSanity says:

    Oh man…nothing like a good Windows-Mac thread!!

    I love these, people say the darndest things when you question their OS selection.

  37. 37

    Also, when you drag a CD to the “trash” the “trash” icon automatically changes to an eject icon so ejecting a disc by dragging it to an eject icon really isn’t all that hard to understand.

    why not just have an eject icon, which turns into a trash icon?

  38. 38
    Bombadil says:

    But I hear:
    “Combine that with strawman, strawman and unsupported argument. Its enough to make me seriously question the sanity of any mac owner.

    Let me guess – you’re in IT?

    A person who makes his/her living working with computers and related systems is not a valid source of information regarding, um, computers and related systems?

  39. 39

    Start the DVD player, hit Apple-comma, uncheck “Enter Full Screen mode” under the Player tab.

    Then Up-Up-down-down-right-left-up-down-button A

    and you get Extra Bonus Powers!

  40. 40
    Billy K says:

    And if anyone can come up with a reason why there is no knob to adjust the volume, I am all ears.

    Adjust it with the keyboard buttons or the little icon in the upper right corner.

    Or how to insert a dvd and not have it take up my whole screen.

    Go to System Preferences. Click “CDs a& DVDs.” Where it says “When you insert a video DVD,” select “ignore.”

  41. 41
    Billy K says:

    A person who makes his/her living working with computers and related systems is not a valid source of information regarding, um, computers and related systems?

    Answer the question and I’ll answer yours.

  42. 42
    Ryan S. says:

    Does not compute…UNIX is part of OS X. Does not compute…error…error…

    Obvious you are wrong, read this for a brief history it was written by linux people so its a little biased toward linux.

  43. 43
    Gus says:

    Billy K, I think you have your answer.

  44. 44
    Tax Analyst says:

    Gotta have a PC for Tax program calculations…never used a Mac. But then I really know just slightly over diddly about computers. It’s a good thing this place is loaded with people who specialize in the “Tech” area because otherwise I’d be really fucked a good part of the time.

  45. 45
    Zifnab says:

    Zifnab, you do understand the irony of “the last thing I want my mom doing” with “learn to use a computer already” right?

    Honestly, what do you think I end every phone call home with? At one point, she insisted that she didn’t know how to right click or close an open IE window, even though I’d seen her do it a thousand times before. I think she occasionally just plays dumb in an attempt to slowly drive me insane.

  46. 46
    Alan says:

    The uninstall app is your finger. Use it to drag the app to the trash. Empty trash.

    Yeah, unlike Windows the trash can actually is a trash can–not a recycle bin. heh.

  47. 47

    And that pretty much sums it up. My friends who have “switched” can’t get over that very thing. I know allt he techy folks will say, “it’s not that hard to run virus software/maintain a firewall, etc.,” but it IS for most people. They just don’t want to/can’t deal with it. Nor should they have to.

    What’s your IP address?

  48. 48
    RareSanity says:

    Then Up-Up-down-down-right-left-up-down-button A

    I thought it was up-up-down-down-left-right-left-right-b-a-b-a-select-select-start?

  49. 49
    Bombadil says:

    Answer the question and I’ll answer yours.

    Answer what question? “You’re in IT, right?”, that question?

    Yeah, I am, but that question wasn’t addressed to me.

  50. 50
    Billy K says:

    Obvious you are wrong, read this for a brief history it was written by linux people so its a little biased toward linux.

    Sorry, not gonna read it. I know what you’re getting at. It’s not pure UNIX. It’s BSD. FreeBSD. I know. It’s a type of UNIX. If you want to argue THAT point, then you’re on your own.

  51. 51
    Billy K says:

    What’s your IP address?

    Huh? What’s an IP address?

    (that’s a joke)

  52. 52

    I thought it was up-up-down-down-left-right-left-right-b-a-b-a-select-select-start?

    No silly, that ejects the DVD!

  53. 53
    Shinobi says:

    Just a little hint as a PC user. If your Mac has a one button mouse and you are longing to right click, hold down the apple symbol.

    Honestly if more games and statistical software were available for Mac my PCs would be turned in to the paperweights they were designed to be

  54. 54
    Shinobi says:

    I mean hold down the apple key while you click… if that wasn’t obvious.

  55. 55

    I don’t know about Final Cut, but when I started using Aperture I went to Apple’s site and downloaded tutorials. I would be surprised if they didn’t have something similar (They may be on the install DVD).

  56. 56
    Billy K says:

    Yeah, I am, but that question wasn’t addressed to me.

    Sorry!

    Anyway, I’ve never met an IT/Support person who likes Macs. Even the fine fellas who support our (100% Mac) department here hate them. There have been long, long threads and essays as to why. I won’t even get into it. There’s enough flaming going on.

  57. 57
    Gus says:

    Zifnab, I hear ya. The problem for me is I’m better with a Mac, and my dad has a Windows PC.

  58. 58
    RSA says:

    Then Up-Up-down-down-right-left-up-down-button A

    Well, in English: Pull down the “DVD Player” menu and choose “Preferences”. Look under “Player”. Change the option to a setting you like. It’s pretty consistent across all Mac applications; the conventions are just slightly different from those of Windows applications.

  59. 59
    Bombadil says:

    Honestly if more games and statistical software were available for Mac my PCs would be turned in to the paperweights they were designed to be

    Given the number of Macs and other Apple products out there, why are there so (relatively, anyway) few business software products available? Is it just because of the proprietary nature of Mac’s OS?

  60. 60

    Honestly if more games and statistical software were available for Mac my PCs would be turned in to the paperweights they were designed to be

    That’s a bug, not a feature.

  61. 61
    Billy K says:

    “apple comma.”

    He means hit the apple key and the comma key. But if you have a brand new keyboard, there is no longer an apple on it. It’s the “Command” key. Hold that key, then press the comma key.

  62. 62
    Tom Gellhaus says:

    A bit of advice for all Windows users (and let your friends know, too).
    Open Settings > Control Panel > Folder Options

    Under “View”, “Files and Folders” there is a box labeled “Hide extensions for known file types”

    MAKE SURE THIS BOX IS NOT CHECKED !!

    One of the common ways crackers spread viruses in Windows machines is using files whose full name is “coolpic.jpg.exe” or “newmusic.mp3.exe” and relying on that stupid box to ensure that you think it is a picture or music files instead of an EXECUTABLE BOT PROGRAM.

    Why MS has that enabled by default is something I don’t understand – it’s very poor security design.

  63. 63

    Given the number of Macs and other Apple products out there, why are there so (relatively, anyway) few business software products available? Is it just because of the proprietary nature of Mac’s OS?

    Because the only people who like Macs aren’t programmers.

  64. 64
    rawshark says:

    One of the common ways crackers spread viruses in Windows machines is using files whose full name is “coolpic.jpg.exe” or “newmusic.mp3.exe” and relying on that stupid box to ensure that you think it is a picture or music files instead of an EXECUTABLE BOT PROGRAM.

    I always check the name of a file before I download it just for that reason.

  65. 65

    Why MS has that enabled by default is something I don’t understand – it’s very poor security design.

    Because they were trying to make Windows look like a Mac.

  66. 66
    Bombadil says:

    Anyway, I’ve never met an IT/Support person who likes Macs. Even the fine fellas who support our (100% Mac) department here hate them. There have been long, long threads and essays as to why. I won’t even get into it. There’s enough flaming going on.

    I’ve met one. And only one. He still uses Macs, to the point where he refuses to use company supplied equipement and insists on using his on Mac laptop (or notebook, or whatever term they use). Since he’s fairly high up in the food chain, he can get away with it.

    I used to work for an apparel manufacturer, and the “creative” side of the house (designers) would never give up their Macs, and the techie side hated integrating them into the overall system. (This was some years ago, and I imagine it’s much easier now).

  67. 67

    I used to work for an apparel manufacturer, and the “creative” side of the house (designers) would never give up their Macs, and the techie side hated integrating them into the overall system. (This was some years ago, and I imagine it’s much easier now).

    Especially since everybody abandoned Novell.

  68. 68
    RSA says:

    Because the only people who like Macs aren’t programmers.

    TOS: I like Macs. (Not exclusively). I still program on occasion, and I used to be a professional programmer.

    JC: Sorry about the Apple- jargon.

  69. 69
    Bombadil says:

    Especially since everybody abandoned Novell.

    John, TOS is being a potty-mouth!

  70. 70
    Billy K says:

    I used to work for an apparel manufacturer, and the “creative” side of the house (designers) would never give up their Macs, and the techie side hated integrating them into the overall system. (This was some years ago, and I imagine it’s much easier now).

    I currently work for the creative department of a large apparel retailer. We’re the only department in the hive that uses Macs. The Techs still hate supporting us, and frankly know very little about our machines. I do a lot of the “support” myself, frankly. I don’t think things have changed much.

    P.S. Actually, I knew one once, too, but he owned a business doing Mac support for small businesses. Therefore he doesn’t count. Made a crapload of money, too.

  71. 71
    Jimitha says:

    If you don’t want to remember Apple-comma (Command-comma), just click on the “DVD Player” menu at the top left (next to the apple), and select “Preferences…”. You can reach the preferences this way for pretty much any Mac application.

  72. 72
    qwerty42 says:

    well, (grumble, grumble kids today grumble) back when I started out, we used CARDS! and we liked it! and we used no nonsense utilities like IEFBR14 and IEBPTPCH and we liked it! oh yes, WE TALKED LIKE THIS TOO. Now everyone wants this user friendly interface. wimps. we had a user hostile interface. because if you didn’t know what you were doing, you probably shouldn’t be doing it anyway, and there was no reason to encourage you to do so. delete your operating system a time or two and you’ll pay close attention to what you’re doing.
    good times.

  73. 73
  74. 74

    I use Vista 64 for gaming and DirectX 10 is starting to show its worth. Check out World in Conflict or BioShock sometime and you’ll see what I mean. The reviewers for BioShock recommend getting the PC version over the Xbox 360 because the PC version has better, sharper graphics.

    The only two games that I haven’t been able to play due to Vista have been Sid Meier’s Alpha Centauri and Nascar SimRacing (I’ve got Ricky Bobby/Cal Naughton/Jean Girard skins). I need my SMAC and will have to work on that one. Nascar used to work perfectly before a Nvidia update (which fixed a SLI screen-ripping problem) but now I’m unable to run the game at the higher resolution settings that used to be available. Maybe the next update will make them available again (hopefully).

    Btw, is there an equivalent to SLI on Macs?

  75. 75
    John Cole says:

    Especially since everybody abandoned Novell.

    My university uses Novell groupwise, and if I could figure out how to put those pighumpers in Guantanamo without being a hypocrite, I would.

  76. 76
    Billy K says:

    Think Different Cute and Stoned.

    YouTube blocked at work…iz dat sum Ellen Feiss?

  77. 77
    Alan says:

    Here’s a better version than youtube’s: click

  78. 78
    wasabi gasp says:

    dat iz

  79. 79
    RSA says:

    Now everyone wants this user friendly interface. wimps.

    Cute.

  80. 80
    Billy K says:

    dat iz

    LOL. I always prefered Janie. But now I’m letting on just HOW MUCH Kool-Aid I’ve drank over the years…

  81. 81
    Grumpy Code Monkey says:

    which is better VMS or UNIX?—OS/2 or Windows?—Mac or Windows?

    VMS.

    I run a Mac Mini and a homebuilt Gentoo linux box at home. I work on Windows XP and Red Hat Linux. In the past I’ve worked on various minis (VAXen, HP-3000, Encore/Gould), multiple flavors of Unix (AIX, Solaris, HP-UX, Irix) and Windows (95, NT, 2000, XP) running some unholy combination of Ada, C, C++, Fortran, and shell scripts.

    They all suck.

  82. 82
    rawshark says:

    and we used no nonsense utilities like IEFBR14

    We still use IEBR14. Mainframe shop baby. They’re trying to convert me to a midrange jockey, tying software packages together using Perl scripts but so far I’ve been able to resist.

  83. 83
    RareSanity says:

    Thanks for all the help, but WTF is “apple comma.” I see comma. I see no “apple comma.”

    “To start press any key…where’s the any key?”

    -Homer Simpson

    Sorry couldn’t resist. What IT related thread is complete without the obligatory Simpson’s reference?

  84. 84
    rawshark says:

    Sorry couldn’t resist. What IT related thread is complete without the obligatory Simpson’s reference?

    Where’s my Tab?

  85. 85
    John Cole says:

    Sorry couldn’t resist. What IT related thread is complete without the obligatory Simpson’s reference?

    That is great and everything, but there is no apple key anywhere. I dunno if the keyboard i have is different- it is litle and white, but I see no apple anywhere.

    And I am not trying to joke around. I am pulling my damned hair out.

  86. 86
    Billy K says:

    That is great and everything, but there is no apple key anywhere. I dunno if the keyboard i have is different- it is litle and white, but I see no apple anywhere.

    Read my comment way up there! Repeated for your convenience:

    He means hit the apple key and the comma key. But if you have a brand new keyboard, there is no longer an apple on it. It’s the “Command” key. Hold that key, then press the comma key.

  87. 87
  88. 88
    RSA says:

    To follow up, with apologies for the confusion, I wrote above but got lost in the noise:

    Well, in English: Pull down the “DVD Player” menu and choose “Preferences”. Look under “Player”. Change the option to a setting you like. It’s pretty consistent across all Mac applications; the conventions are just slightly different from those of Windows applications.

  89. 89
    wasabi gasp says:

    The Apple key (actually Command key) is next to the space bar. It has an Apple icon as well as a 4-leaf clover freeway clusterfuck thing on it.

  90. 90
    pharniel says:

    it’s just a matter of time before the mac owners are having to install anti-malware software as well.

    once the underlying OS infrastructure is sufficently complex, which is required for ‘non-techies’ to use the equipment then there will be exploitable holes in the system.
    Once there are enough of the system in the wild to allow financial or social gain for creating a virus/malware then there will be a plethora of bugs for mac owners to worry about.

    The issue with a monoculture is that everyone knows how to use the system and it’s trivial to code for it.
    the downside is everyone knows how to work the system and it’s trivial to code for it.

    My experince with MACS was basically a long chain of the system telling me i really didn’t want to do what i wanted to do.
    or int he os 9 days, crashing if you looked at it funny and being a nightmare for my mother, who’s pc at the tiem running 98se didn’t have one problem.

  91. 91
    qwerty42 says:

    rawshark Says:

    and we used no nonsense utilities like IEFBR14

    We still use IEBR14. Mainframe shop baby. They’re trying to convert me to a midrange jockey, tying software packages together using Perl scripts but so far I’ve been able to resist.

    Yeah, but whacha gonna do? Can’t write PL/I or Assembly programs all the time. Perl is fun. Friedl’s book on “Mastering Regular Expressions” is great (and there is a somewhat obscure ref to the mf line editor QED and its relation to the unix editor ed). You might see if your shop wants to run Linux on the mf to host web services. We have SAS programs write html to the Unix System Services for that.

  92. 92
    zik says:

    Actually on the new imacs there is no apple on the key anymore. My girlfriend just bought the same computer.

    It is just calleed *command* key now, there is no apple icon on it like the white one i have for my mac pro.

  93. 93
    cleek says:

    WTF is “apple comma.”

    it’s right next to the ‘any’ key

  94. 94
    UnkyT says:

    Shinobi Says:

    Just a little hint as a PC user. If your Mac has a one button mouse and you are longing to right click, hold down the apple symbol.

    First off, it is control + click, not apple + click. Second, bringing up a one-button mouse issue for macs is like bringing up some old Win98 issue for pcs. Macs have supported 2 button mice for a long, long time

  95. 95
    terry chay says:

    I’m sorry, am I missing something? I’ve purchased Final Cut Pro 1, Final Cut Pro 4, and Final Cut Studio, and in each case the documentation (and by corollary the box) has gotten larger. I was wondering how long Apple could keep that up.

    Adobe keeps the same large box, but has no paper documentation (purchase separately, it’s on PDF on the DVD). Apple’s Aperture has the full docs on PDF in the help menu and throws in a DVD and paper docs of the quick start. I imagine more companies will move that direction as professional applications usually necessitate a course (or ten) or a book of your choosing.

    Just sayin’

    (As for Macs being easy or hard, it’s hard for me to judge. I’ve been using them since 1984, PCs since 1983, Windows since 1993. I think they may be marginally easier for first timers, but mostly its a different philosophy which causes a lot of small differences: many good, some really bad.)

  96. 96
    wasabi gasp says:

    it’s just a matter of time before the mac owners are having to install anti-malware software as well.

    al Qaeda!

  97. 97
    Punchy says:

    Apples are meant to be eaten and baked, not purchased and programmed.

    Therein lies your prob, Mr. Cole.

  98. 98
    UnkyT says:

    Unix rules all. I had a SCO server with almost 6 years constant uptime… no OS comes close.

    Win-XP better than mac anything…. Not gonna say a Damned thing about Vista(/spit)

    OSX, BSD based, but Leopard is Unix 03 Certified.

  99. 99
    Cyrus says:

    My parents have always had Windows machines at home, and my two personal computers (current, and previous) were Windows machines as well. But in college I spent a fair amount of time on the Macs in the college newspaper office, and the newspaper I’m working at now also has Macs.

    Computer games tend to come out months later if at all for Apple computers, and then there’s the one-button mouse (sure, there’s the apple key and you can buy other mice, but still), so I never seriously considered getting a Mac for myself. As smooth as they tend to be, I find it hard to believe that their programmers manage to avoid making programs generate any files that go in other directories at all, so, yes, uninstall wizards are useful.

    As for reliability, yeah, my parents’ computer and my previous computer have needed coaxing to get working sometimes. My current home computer is working fine. In fact, I’m pleasantly surprised it’s working so well with practically no maintenance or security other than using Firefox, and I’m irrationally nervous about looking a gift horse in the mouth — what if I finally subscribe to an anti-virus program and it just makes them angry?

    So does that mean I’m endorsing the reliability of Macs? Well, I’ve had to have my work computer sent off to a technician to have some hardware fixed twice now, and changing the battery on my iPod would have cost almost as much as buying a new, simpler MP3 player did, so… mmmno. Sure, specific factory defect in a certain run of computers, et cetera, but in my entirely personal experience, both are easy to use for simple stuff, neither needs that much fixing, and when a Windows machine does break, at least I have some slight chance of fixing the problem myself.

    All that being said, this was really hilarious:

    Thanks for all the help, but WTF is “apple comma.” I see comma. I see no “apple comma.”

  100. 100
    srv says:

    Anyway, I’ve never met an IT/Support person who likes Macs.

    Actually, we had one at the Johnson Space Center who loved Macs. Was on a crusade to fight NASA mgmts standardizing to Windows only. He had a fine set of Quadras on his desk to admin our unix boxes.

    Then somebody stole it all. Not twenty feet outside the STS Mission Control Room.

  101. 101
    Dennis-SGMM says:

    P.S. Actually, I knew one once, too, but he owned a business doing Mac support for small businesses. Therefore he doesn’t count. Made a crapload of money, too.

    But, but, but, I thought that Macs were sublimely easy to use and never crashed.

    I’m a long-time IT person and I don’t hate Macs – even though I suffered through some of Apple’s early attempts at implementing TCP/IP. I just don’t see that much difference these days between them and PC’s.

  102. 102
    Billy K says:

    Hey kids – let’s go FUD-huntin’!

    it’s just a matter of time before the mac owners are having to install anti-malware software as well.

    Perhaps. Remains to be seen, though, and arguing that now is kinda pointless.

    once the underlying OS infrastructure is sufficently complex, which is required for ‘non-techies’ to use the equipment then there will be exploitable holes in the system.

    OS X was instroduced in 2001. you let me know when it gets to that point.

    Once there are enough of the system in the wild to allow financial or social gain for creating a virus/malware then there will be a plethora of bugs for mac owners to worry about.

    Again – speculation. We’ll see. It’s not like writing a virus for XP…or even OS 9.

    My experince with MACS was basically a long chain of the system telling me i really didn’t want to do what i wanted to do.

    What does MACS stand for? I think you’re describing Vista.

    or int he os 9 days, crashing if you looked at it funny

    This is true.

  103. 103
    Gus says:

    Apple doesn’t even make a one button mouse anymore, so kill that one.

  104. 104
    JohnD says:

    Get thee, Grasshoppa, to Linda. She will quiet your raging heart. But beware, she is a capitalist and will require a nomical charge. But this fellow Garrick Chow – he’s like smoking a big doob. I’ve been known to get this (no doubt unwarranted) feeling of tranquility and assurance that the world is a kind and well under control place, and there was no reason, really, to throw the fan across the room. And it often lasts for hours! Sorry for the plug…Is that okay? Really, I’m completely unaffiliated with anybody but my wife.

  105. 105
    Billy K says:

    But, but, but, I thought that Macs were sublimely easy to use and never crashed.

    Don’t be trolly. We all know if it’s a machine it’ll have it share of problems. Anyway, he supported our network and upgraded our boxes mostly. All three of the Artists at that Agency were Mac Zealots®. We didn’t have a problem with crashing.

    And yes, believe it or not, despite what everyone tells you, it’s not only possible to upgrade Mac hardware, it’s pretty easy. At least it was back then in the G3/G4 days. (Nowadays I don’t care, as I can afford to buy a whole new system every 2 years)

  106. 106
    Bombadil says:

    Macs have supported 2 button mice for a long, long time

    That should be two-button mouses.

    Two button mice look like this.

  107. 107
    Zifnab says:

    Apple doesn’t even make a one button mouse anymore, so kill that one.

    The memory lives on.

    Seriously, wtf were they thinking? Two buttons was just too complicated?

  108. 108
    BrianM says:

    Because the only people who like Macs aren’t programmers.

    You don’t get around enough. In some programming circles, Macs are practically universal. Look at pictures from Ruby or Rails conferences, for example. Among what Tim O’Reilly (publisher who mainly targets programmers) calls the “alpha geeks”, Macs have been common for years.

  109. 109
    McGee says:

    Billy K: “OS X was instroduced in 2001. you let me know when it gets to that point.”

    Oompa Loompa (Leap.A)February 2006.

  110. 110
    Billy K says:

    Seriously, wtf were they thinking? Two buttons was just too complicated?

    Yes, actually that’s exactly what it was. They wanted Grandma to be able to use their computers and they thought two would be too confusing. There was no such thing as contextual menus when they put out that hardware.

    Still, the support for two-buttons was (practically) always in the software.

    Now, if you wanna talk about the Hockey Puck….dear Lord…

  111. 111
    Shinobi says:

    Sorry, I’m not rich enough to afford a new mac every 3 years. Please forgive me.

  112. 112
    Dennis-SGMM says:

    Billy K, you’re right: any machine can take a dive. I just couldn’t resist taking a poke at the myth (Google returns 872,000 hits for the phrase “spinning beach ball of death”). If a person feels that they can do their best work on a Mac then they should have one – the same goes for all of the other OS choices out there. Insisting that one is uniformly and demonstrably better than any of the others is just parochial.

  113. 113
    Billy K says:

    Insisting that one is uniformly and demonstrably better than any of the others is just parochial.

    Sorry – but modern Macs just are. (better, that is)

    What I find interesting is how those who are un-initiated don’t realize what a huge shift occured with the introduction of OS X, and specifically, with the release Panther.

    Folks still trot out the “single button mouse” and “unprotected memory” and “drag the CD to the trash” points, which haven’t been true for a long, long time.

    OS 9 was OK for its time. Crashed a lot (not as much as OS 8, but that’s another story). But OS X is just an entirely different thing. I can’t even reason with someone when they bring up something that hasn’t been applicable to me in 5 years.

  114. 114
    Chris Johnson says:

    This is so nostalgic :)

  115. 115
    Billy K says:

    Shinobi – I can’t afford to buy a new computer every few years, either. But I can sell my old one and buy a new one every year if I wish.

    Once you own a Mac (I prefer the biggest iMac I can get), use it for 1 to 1.5 years, then sell it. They retain their value pretty well. I can get 70-80% of the cost of a new iMac back, and I usually end up only putting in $500 more for the brand new one. I do the same thing with iPods.

  116. 116
    Gus says:

    Who needs to buy a new Mac every 3 years? My 5 year old Mac is still faster than my dad’s 2 year old Windows machine (never buy a Celeron).

  117. 117
    UnkyT says:

    OS 9 was OK for its time. Crashed a lot (not as much as OS 8, but that’s another story). But OS X is just an entirely different thing. I can’t even reason with someone when they bring up something that hasn’t been applicable to me in 5 years.

    The windows users just aren’t used to getting an updated OS more than twice a decade.

  118. 118
    pharniel says:

    Billy K Says:

    Hey kids – let’s go FUD-huntin’!

    it’s just a matter of time before the mac owners are having to install anti-malware software as well.

    Perhaps. Remains to be seen, though, and arguing that now is kinda pointless.

    once the underlying OS infrastructure is sufficently complex, which is required for ‘non-techies’ to use the equipment then there will be exploitable holes in the system.

    OS X was instroduced in 2001. you let me know when it gets to that point.

    Once there are enough of the system in the wild to allow financial or social gain for creating a virus/malware then there will be a plethora of bugs for mac owners to worry about.

    Again – speculation. We’ll see. It’s not like writing a virus for XP…or even OS 9.

    ok bill. challenge.
    you go tell a serious malware programmer that you’ll pay them handsomly for zombie swarms consisting of mac os computers and i’ll show you a guy who’s gonna figure out a way to put out viri for mac os.

    telling someone of the nature of an amature virus writer that something is uninfectable is a giant challenge.
    it’s just not worth it right now.
    if os X can get up to about 50% market share i would bet serious money we’d start to see malware pop up like weeds.

  119. 119
    The Pale Scot says:

    I hope by now the issues you posted here have been solved, as someone who is currently learning Final Cut Pro, it takes a lot more than a couple of hours to understand. Imovie should be in your application folder, if it is version ’08 it sucks, but I believe that is only available as part of Ilife 08. With Imovie you’ll working in 15 min., and unless you are bucking for an Oscar it should be all you need. If you have Ilife 08 and you don’t have Imovie 6 you can download it for free from Apple here,

    http://www.apple.com/support/d.....ieHD6.html ,

    Apple is offering it to purchasers of ’08 who don’t like the ’08 version, ’cause it sucks. But you’ll have to have ILife 08 installed for it to work.

    If you’re new to Apples then you should check out the system preferences and adjust the interface to your liking, and the HELP app is useful. There is a smaller set of preferences for the finder, file>preferences

    Since UNIX runs some maintenance scripts in the early morning hours, if your not going to keep it up and running 24/7 you’ll need MacJanitor to do it for you, or the machine will slow down.
    http://www.versiontracker.com/.....cosx/10491

    And get DiskWarrior also, its very useful.

  120. 120
    Billy K says:

    telling someone of the nature of an amature virus writer that something is uninfectable is a giant challenge.
    it’s just not worth it right now.
    if os X can get up to about 50% market share i would bet serious money we’d start to see malware pop up like weeds.

    Wouldn’t some malware guy just LOVE to be the first one to release a virus for OS X? Don’t you think that ego-boost alone is worth some attention.

    Look, OS X is not going to be malware free forever. It’ll happen eventually, and it’ll suck. Still, we’re not going to be doing the dance that XP users are. It’s been 7 years since OS X was released. To this day we still have had zero virii. It’s not just “security by obscurity.”

    Anyway, there are much more qualified people who have argued this over and over better than I ever can.

  121. 121
    Ryan S. says:

    if os X can get up to about 50% market share i would bet serious money we’d start to see malware pop up like weeds.

    There’s a couple out there.
    http://wiredblogs.tripod.com/c....._id=490271
    (was gonna link it but for some reason your site doesn’t like this url.)
    and here.

  122. 122
    Chris Johnson says:

    No, if Apple starts to build scripting capacities into everything retardedly and sets all manner of ‘business collaboration’ and network communication to ‘on’ by default to save people the trouble, THEN you’ll see malware pop up like weeds.

    OSX is unix, period. I have Terminal in my dock. I’ve salvaged really ugly clusterfucks using it or single-user mode (once loginwindow was broken- fix that with the GUI!)

    There used to be a Quicktime virus that took advantage of CD-Rom auto-run… which Apple copied from Windows. I believe they got rid of that again…

  123. 123

    Look, OS X is not going to be malware free forever. It’ll happen eventually, and it’ll suck. Still, we’re not going to be doing the dance that XP users are. It’s been 7 years since OS X was released. To this day we still have had zero virii. It’s not just “security by obscurity.”

    My XP machines have been virii free for 7 years too. So I really don’t know what you are talking about.

    Hell, actually I can’t remember the last time I got a virus. I think it was on my Amiga.

  124. 124
    Chris Johnson says:

    I love it. Installing viruses is so HARD on a Mac! It makes you type your administrator password. How inconvenient, Macs suxxorz :D

  125. 125

    Anyway, there are much more qualified people who have argued this over and over better than I ever can.

    And most of them are morons. Same people who claimed Linux was completely immune from viruses and such.

    Most of the problems you have on Windows today have to do with trojans and spyware.(usually same thing) they’re all “Download this program and install it… it’s really cool”

    And you know what? People do it.

  126. 126
    Billy K says:

    if your not going to keep it up and running 24/7 you’ll need MacJanitor to do it for you, or the machine will slow down.

    I don’t believe this is necessary with Tiger.

  127. 127
    Billy K says:

    My XP machines have been virii free for 7 years too. So I really don’t know what you are talking about.

    I love it when the top .01% of computer geeks talk about how malware-free and hardened their systems are. You know what? I believe you 100%. I truly do. But 99.9% of the rest of the world is clueless on how to lock their systems down.

    just because you know a lot about computers and it’s easy for you doesn’t mean everyone else can dot he same thing.

    And most of them are morons. Same people who claimed Linux was completely immune from viruses and such.

    I’m not talking about Cultists who claim OS X will be virus-free forever because it’s touched by God. I’mtalking about knowledgable people debating in good faith. Thanks for assuming, though.

  128. 128

    You don’t get around enough. In some programming circles, Macs are practically universal. Look at pictures from Ruby or Rails conferences, for example. Among what Tim O’Reilly (publisher who mainly targets programmers) calls the “alpha geeks”, Macs have been common for years.

    So where is that software?

  129. 129

    I’m not talking about Cultists who claim OS X will be virus-free forever because it’s touched by God. I’mtalking about knowledgable people debating in good faith. Thanks for assuming, though.

    Nobody arguing in good faith would claim the Mac cannot have viruses.

  130. 130
    The Pale Scot says:

    “if your not going to keep it up and running 24/7 you’ll need MacJanitor to do it for you, or the machine will slow down.

    I don’t believe this is necessary with Tiger.”

    Still necessary, UNIX has to run the maintenance scripts sometime.

    by the way, you can use Pacifist to solve any problems encountered with the Imovie 06 download

  131. 131
    John S. says:

    And John S., I know of ONE Fla. ad shop that won’t be getting my company’s business. And it’s not because you refuse to use Mac.

    We have more than enough business as it is, thanks.

  132. 132
    John S. says:

    Billy K,

    Did Apple send you over here?

    I kid.

  133. 133
    rawshark says:

    Is it possible to put OSX on my Dell notebook? It has XP home now.

  134. 134
    John S. says:

    And on second thought, I say to hell with elitist Macophiles that think that graphic artists that don’t use Mac have some sort of deficiency.

    A computer is a tool. Now you may argue that as thus, a Mac is like a horsehair brush while a PC is like a nylon brush, and that you can paint better pictures with a Mac…

    But if you’re going to denegrate the work of a graphic artist simply because of their personal preference of tool, then I say a hearty FUCK YOU.

    I’ve had to put up with that kind of bullshit for over a decade. The fact is that the tool is only as good as the person using it.

  135. 135
    wasabi gasp says:

    Some people are content with banging a nail with the heel of their shoe.

  136. 136
    John S. says:

    Some people are unable to bang a nail with a hammer.

  137. 137
    wasabi gasp says:

    Those people should ask their cobbler if he knows a good graphic designer. =P

  138. 138
    Chris Johnson says:

    What are you talking about? I’m a Mac user from years of being a sound engineer in the music business. You bang nails with a SM57. Everybody knows that ;)

  139. 139
    dave says:

    I mean, who the fuck would think to drag a CD icon to the trash to eject a disk? That’s just plain retarded.

    Yeah because going to the start menu to stop your computer makes a lot more sense.

  140. 140
    dave says:

    You bang nails with a SM57. Everybody knows that

    …and with each nail they sound better and better!!

    The Chris Johnson?

  141. 141
    Randolph Fritz says:

    Among what Tim O’Reilly (publisher who mainly targets programmers) calls the “alpha geeks”, Macs have been common for years.

    So where is that software?

    Running at Google, quite a bit. Other than that, providing major web services and supporting creative work. One of the reasons that a lot of Windows software is subtly awful is that most people only program on Windows for money; it’s too difficult and complex to be fun and the end results partake of problems of the platform.

  142. 142
    Randolph Fritz says:

    Oh, as far as understanding the relative security of the Windows and Linux platforms (I think the comparison of Mac OS X and Windows is probably similar, look here.

  143. 143
    RobR says:

    Ubuntu Linux, bitches! And take the money you saved on the OS to buy an XBox 360 to play games on!

    (P.S. That said, it’s not for everyone. If you’re unafraid of your computer, willing to accept that there are going to be challenges doing some things you’ve taken for granted, and accept going in that you and the command line are going to get reacquainted to accomplish a few things, you’ll find there’s very little you can’t do that you can in Windows or Mac. I installed it on my new computer in May to play around with it, and knew I would never go back a month ago when I proudly put a terminal launcher on my toolbar)

    (P.P.S.: If my comment makes this thread devolve from a Mac vs. Windows flamewar into a PC gaming vs. console gaming flamewar, I apologize in advance)

  144. 144
    Mr Furious says:

    And on second thought, I say to hell with elitist Macophiles that think that graphic artists that don’t use Mac have some sort of deficiency.

    I interviewed for a publisher a few years back and they had a PC-based design department. They had a lot of trouble attracting talent (and acknowledged as much to me in the interview). It really gave me pause thinking they clearly didn’t treat the department seriously if they forced them to use that platform.

    I’m not saying it’s an indication of talent as a designer—that’s the human, the computer is merely the tool. But I think it’s reflective of something, whether it’s mindset, flexibility, compatablity or what I can’t exactly say, but it strikes me as a negative. Sorry.

  145. 145
    John S. says:

    But I think it’s reflective of something, whether it’s mindset, flexibility, compatablity or what I can’t exactly say, but it strikes me as a negative. Sorry.

    Yes, it’s reflective of an industry built around image rather than substance. Mac is all about image, hence the i-Lifestyle, and too many people in advertising are so wrapped up in the very same bullshit they peddle that it becomes hard to distinguish between the two. I have seen way too many designers so full of themselves and their macs, but when it came down to doing the actual work they fell pretty short of the mark.

    In twelve years of doing this, you want to know how many super talented graphic designers only worked on a mac? ONE. The other designers I’ve seen with talent all worked on either a PC or both.

    But it is perceived as a negative by many, and my company has lost business because of it. And that’s fine. But we never lost any of those bids because our work wasn’t good enough – we lost it because of people too wrapped in the superficial supremacy of the mac (as a commenter even indicated above). Those businesses belong with like-minded ad agencies, and around here, we’re more than happy to let them have each other.

  146. 146
    Randolph Fritz says:

    John, the horrific experience of dealing with Microsoft’s “support” of MS graphics back when is not something easily set aside. Nor is the extra time & effort required to maintain MS systems (MS systems take about three times as much admin time as Macs) an expense most small graphics shops want to take one. There are some things that can only be done with MS systems, of course, (in graphics AutoCAD is the 800-pound gorilla) and compatibility with MS-Office is a big deal, but just about any small business that doesn’t have these requirements is better off with on Macs–they save money. Sad, but true.

  147. 147
    Jack Kehn says:

    I am a linux guy and my wife uses a 24″ iMac (which is a lovely machine, IMHO). Every OS (including windows, linux, etc,) has its quirks and OS X is no different.

    But I have found that OS X is quite similar to Linux (in as much as Spanish is similar to Portuguese) and I have been able to help my wife with more advanced administrative tasks with relative ease, considering that I am not an experienced Mac user.

    My recommendations for all Mac OS X users is to Google “best open source applications for Mac OS X.” By doing this, my wife found several FREE applications that are loved by the Unix/Linux community that work on Mac OS X. One such app is Open Office. It amazes me that nobody outside the open source community seems to be aware that you don’t need a $500 office suite from Microsoft to read and write doc, xls, ppt files, etc. Sun Microsystems developed an alternative years ago and it works in Unix/Linux, OS X and Windows.

    As an open source/Linux/Unix fanboy, I am also a huge fan of Mac OS X, because the future apps to be developed for Mac OS X and apps already developed for Linux/Unix are already cross-pollinating.

Comments are closed.