Not Hillary, but Bill:
KING: On an international level, do you think the surge is going to succeed? What do you expect to hear in a couple of weeks?
CLINTON: My guess is that General Petraeus will ask to give it more time. And he will say it is succeeding. What I think is a little more complicated than that. Look at what is indisputable, where has it done well?
There are a couple of places in the Sunni section of Iraq where the American military has allied with Sunni insurgents that previously fought against us. Why have they allied with us?
Because we are now helping them to do something they want to do. They have decided they need to beat the al Qaeda in Iraq because it is controlled by non-Iraqis, and they don’t have an Iraqi agenda.
They are basically trying to wreck everything. You know, if they are trying to kill as many Americans as possible, and if they have to kill Iraq Sunni sympathizers and people that don’t adhere to their very severe interpretation of Islam, they don’t have a problem in the world doing it.
And the Sunni insurgents that are homegrown, they have a political agenda. They want a piece of the governance of the country. They want a piece of the oil revenues. They want a piece of Iraq’s future.
So that is fine. But in a way, the fact that we have now succeeded with this strategy also shows its limits, because we don’t have the troops to do this all over the country.
And it shows you that ultimately this is a political problem that has to be solved by the Iraqis themselves. Furthermore, I don’t see any alternative consistent with the responsibilities for national security to a substantial withdrawal of troops this year, because the military is so overstressed.
If we had a big national security emergency now, we would be virtually compelled to meet it with Naval and Air Force forces, because the Army, the Marine Corps, the National Guard, the Reserves are all overstretched, all deeply stressed.
There are Naval personnel now, substantial numbers of them who have been trained in weapons fire, infantry tactics, even guerrilla warfare, trained, in effect, to be a second army because we are so overstressed.
So I don’t think, given the problems we have got in Afghanistan with a resurgent Taliban and the al Qaeda and the imperative of defeating them there, I still believe that we will have to have a substantial drawdown of troops this year.
No wonder we (by we, I mean Republicans, although it would be grossly inacurrate to, at this point, call me a Republican- I am one in name only at the moment) hated him in the 90’s (and I was a full-fledged Clinton hater). His accurate description of reality gets in the way of our fantasy. No worries, we have an actor running now, and hopefully Fred Thompson will keep the dream alive.
As a side note, does anyone else have any information about the Navy now teaching their sailors how to perform an infantry function? (Update – More info here.)
*** Update ***
James Joyner has more on the Navy issue. His analysis- Clinton is stretching the truth slightly.
chopper
i didn’t like clinton a whole lot while he was president, but damn if i don’t miss the hell out of the guy now.
Matt t
I’m pretty sure he means we would be limited to air and missle strikes, severely limiting our options in responding to a crisis that might require boots on the ground.
I’m curious, having only started reading your blog a few years ago: what fantasies did you entertain during your years of Clinton hating? It sounds like there’re some demons you want to exorcise.
MT
ThymeZone
Relax, everybody, we’ve turned another corner in Iraq.
Pb
How about this:
gex
Have we developed some sort of algorithm for determining which direction to turn when we get to a corner? Turning right all the time (and I picked right on purpose) just makes you go in circles.
Punchy
Not going to happen now, not in November, not in March, not in June. Perhaps in September, to give the GOP candidate something to point at. Of course, that would be excessively overstressing (read: raising deployment times) the military for purely political gain…
Again, I ask–how in hell is the military so pro-Republican? Does every one in cammo suffer from Battered Wife Syndrome?
Jake
Wow, I’d almost forgotten.
We used to have an articulate, intelligent president.
There’s this.
ThymeZone
Startling, to hear a president carry on a sentient conversation about a complex subject, and to feel as though one is listening to an intelligent mind at work, even if one doesn’t agree entirely with the view being expressed. Startling to hear a president talk about important subjects without every other word being about self-justification.
I had forgotten that a president could actually do that.
ThymeZone
Since Jake beat me to it, then I meant to say …
“I too had forgotten ….”
Zifnab
To some extent, yes. The military is taught to be stoic first and masocistic second. How else do you get guys to stick it out for a 12 month deployment, much less a 15 month deployment, in the first place?
Secondly, I’ve got a friend or two in Iraq who honestly insist we are making a difference down there. And, from a local level, I don’t doubt that’s how it looks. When you’ve got a mob of gangsters and militia members slaughtering people up and down the street, and the US Army sweeps in and rids the town of them, it sure as hell looks like you are making progress… until you get redeployed somewhere else, the militias come back and some other young gun gets to do your job all over again. But the new guys never see that. The old guys just see a new mess.
And the officers, who are able to see the big picture, aren’t allowed to get too vocal without getting fired, or worse. See the long line of ex-Generals under King George’s reign. Do you imagine it gets any more pleasant, politically, inside the ranks of the military? Certainly, I’d be surprised if Shinsaki or Bremer are still big-time Republican contributors. But Petreaus – for the moment – is still red-blooded, so long as he’s keeping his job.
Andrew
But Clinton got a BJ, so I don’t care if he talks real good.
grumpy realist
Is it just my imagination, or has Washington, D.C. simply become a cesspool of all the incompetent idiots who can’t find jobs elsewhere? Bush and his entourage, the neo-cons, the Democratic party, which makes jellyfish look backbone-enabled….what is going on?
Japan has something about as dysfunctional when it comes to politics, but no one cares because everything is run by the civil service anyway and everyone know that. Plus, the civil service is inhabited by extremely efficient and capable people.
I thought that Republicans used to adore competence? What happened?
Jinchi
I had the same question when my Navy SEAL nephew told me he specialized in desert warfare.
Randolph Fritz
It’s more the enlisted men, who live in an environment designed to support their morale; in this situation that means one saturated with deceptive propaganda. Above a certain rank–maybe John has a better sense of what rank–most of the officers know this war is lost, and know it is the fault of Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld.
capelza
Even when he pissed me off, which he did fairly regularily, I really loved Bill Clinton. A smart man willing to surround himself with other smart people.
Corrupt? Probably..he IS from Arkansas. ;)
There I’ve said it. And to be very, very frank, I might vote for Hillary just to get that glorious, lying cheating bastard back in the White House. I think that most of the rest of the world might feel a little bit easier to have the grown ups back in charge, too.
grandpa john
God, how wonderful to hear the sounds of sanity arising from amidst the cacophony of insane babble emanating from the bush mafia, the MSM and punditry enablers , and the neo-con criminals.
gex
Starting in 2000, the first question asked of any employee, has been “are you a republican.”
That was followed by “what do you think about abortion”
Followed by “what do you think of gay marriage”
You might get competent people after the first question. But the pool of people who answer correctly on all three questions seems to have a smaller percentage of competent applicants.
Jake
And the words between the self-justification mispronounced, incomprehensible or incorrect.
Seriously, John or anyother recanting R’s, help this leftofascist understand. I can see why some cretin who thinks Intelligent = Stuck Up would find President Goober appealing because that sort of person would be too stupid to notice the gross contradiction of a Yale/Harvard grad calling his opponents members of the Eastern Liberal Elite. But didn’t you worry, even a little, about the fact that the man sounds like the product of a furtive fling between a meth addict from Inbred, TX and a dictatorial televangelist?
Didn’t any of this shit worry you, just a little?
Not to pick on John but he’s one of the only R’s I know who isn’t either still deeply devoted or in deep denial that they voted for the man.
dadanarchist
“Japan has something about as dysfunctional when it comes to politics, but no one cares because everything is run by the civil service anyway and everyone know that. Plus, the civil service is inhabited by extremely efficient and capable people.”
In many ways, this country is run by the civil service as well. It may not be as efficient as Japan, but it works pretty well. Though the Bush cabal has done its damndest to smash that up as well.
It is, after all, civil servants – whether in the Pentagon, the State Department or the GAO – that have been the source of all these leaks that demonstrate how truly incompetent Bushco. is.
Unfortunately, the press seems largely uninterested in covering these stories in any real depth.
I would be interested to see how many members of the military come back from Iraq still supporting the GOP.
This was may break that other aspect of Vietnam syndrome: the delusion that Democrats hate the army.
David
Ah, and to think, that was one of Limbaugh’s lines during the ’00 campaign…
Rick Taylor
“No worries, we have an actor running now, and hopefully Fred Thompson will keep the dream alive.”
It’s not just Thompson, did you see the recent debate? There’s a summary here if like me, you couldn’t bear it: http://tpmelectioncentral.com/2007/09/election_central_debate_roundup_9.php .
Mitt Romney and John McCain both said the sure is working. Mike Huckabee argued we should show the same concern to fetuses we showed to the coal miners who lost their lives. Ron Paul argued air safety should be a matter of private airlines to take care of, not the government. Duncan Hunter talked about the great living conditions in Guantanomo, and Tom Tancredo came out in favor of water boarding.
I remember how we liberals had to endure endless gibes form conservatives about how, ohhhhhh, we let that crazy Michael Moore have a seat when Kerry launched his Presidential campaign, that shows how we’re in thrall to the nuts. But my God, in the Republican party, the crazies are the ones running for President! I mean that seriously. There is not a single candidate running on the Republican ticket who I don’t find frightening. There’s not a single candidate who doesn’t have a severe disconnect with reality on critical issues. There’s only one candidate who seems to have the ability to acknowledge what’s actually happening in Iraq (leave alone having any sensible idea what we should do about it), and while I applaud him for that, he has also supported a return to the gold standard.
I have watched for years as liberals have been vilified for pandering to the crazy base (you know, those of us who thought invading Iraq was a really really really bad idea?), only to see the Republican go completely off the deep end. I don’t believe I’m exagarating here. I wish there was just one candidate who didn’t horrify me. I wish there was one Republican candidate for President who I could say you know, I don’t agree with his positions and I probably won’t vote for him, but he seems to have a basic understanding of what’s going on in the world and I could live with it if he won. Just one!
On another note, in the above quote Clinton was able to do something few Democrats have been able to do effectively: make the pragmatic hard nosed case for getting out of Iraq. It shouldn’t be difficult; tying down are army in Iraq for the forseeable future to overthrow a secular dictator and install a Shia Iran-friendly government in Iraq couldn’t possibly be the best use of our resources, even from the rather bizarre perspective that we’re in a war for our existence against ‘Islamofascism’, but that case hasn’t been made or pressed nearly as well as it should have. On the contrary, it looks like the congress is content to allow the administration to completely trash our army by the time he ends his term. I sure hope we don’t need it for anything important in the near future.
Fwiffo
It feels so strange for me to have any kind of regard to Bill Clinton. At best, I always felt profound indifference toward him. But next to the W, Bill Clinton seems like an absolute giant. It so quaint to have somebody who actually thinks about things.
F
John,
What was it about the Clintons that you hated?
I would like to request a post (actually two posts, one for Bill and one for Hillary) where you can state your reasons for disliking the Clintons and we can all comment and reflect on the republicans passionate dislike of the Clintons.
Thank you,
– F
Rick Taylor
Clinton’s comments on Craig were really classy as well:
“Well, first of all, I think we ought to recognize that this is a very traumatic time for him and his family. And whatever happens or doesn’t, most of his political career was behind him. So whatever your party, we should be hoping that he and his family can work through this in a way that leaves them as whole as possible.
I think that that is more important than the politics of this. The politics of this will have to be resolved by him and the Republicans in the Senate.”
That amendment limiting a President to two terms was a mistake.
Andrew
I’m beginning to think that an appropriate punishment for Bush voters would be lifetime tax penalties and a requirement for a Dear-Leader-type portrait of Bill Clinton to be hung in their bedrooms.
ThymeZone
John’s leadership on this is one of the reasons many of us are here. He’s put his embarassment right out in front of everybody. Full props.
We beat up on him all the time for one thing and another but the fact is, he’s been a mensch on this thing.
Pb
I have a feeling that only happened because of how much the Republicans hated FDR — I think that hatred began their great unhinging:
Jake
You’ll never hear a peep about a repeal while Clinton is still breathing. Bet you anything that if something were to happen to him we’d be deafened by the wingies screaming about 4 More Yearz! for Bush.
Which is why I like the idea of term limits. Usually.
Bubblegum Tate
Amen to both of these. A-fucking-men.
Tsulagi
But, but, but, Clinton doesn’t see THE BIG PICTURE! Not like the Malkinettes and tardcons like Kristol. Plus they got irrefutable confirmation from Vitter and Katie Couric after their hours holding hands with PA officers in the Green Zone! Can’t compete with that.
You just gotta laugh when these idiots claim they see “the big picture.” Yep, these visionaries have never missed the mark. From just knowing in their gut Chalabi would be the “George Washington of Iraq,” flowers and candies kumbaya for all, war costs in single digit billions, followed by Iraqi oil gushing forth lowering the then ‘high’ cost of gas for all good Americans for years to come.
Plus soon after the “I don’t think it’ll take longer than six months” known known by Rumsfeld, the newly freedomized and democratized Iraq would act like a virus in the region. Irresistibly, foes like Iran and Syria followed by others would be infected happily transforming into Muslim Gardens of Eden. Yep, they see the big picture.
Stay the course. With big picture visionaries like Cheney and Kristol at the helm, what could go wrong?
ThymeZone
The same assholes who are scheming to amend the Constitution so that Arnold can run for president.
Pooh
I’d take the gubernator over any of the actual GOP candidates in about 2 nanoseconds.
Bigger drop off, Clinton/Gore to W/Cheney in ’01, or Michael Jordan to Pete Myers in 1994?
timb
My brother in law has been in the Navy for 15 years, on active and reserve duty. He is in a Seabee unit that returned from a yearlong deployment to Basrah in 1/07. He had to be temporarily assigned to the Army and go through training, just so he could liaison with the Brits. He said it was very harrowing…..
….but not like you’d think. There was only a small danger of IED’s and insurgents, but, if you couldn’t get things worked out quickly with the Brits, you had to eat their food and drink their tea. Apparently, at Abu Garib we just should have fed the Iraqis English food and they would have started talking!
jenniebee
Nobody could have predicted that after turning so many corners we’d finally run into a Minotaur.
Jake
Gak. Are people still after that? I thought Ahnuuld was too big a disappointment because he failed to squish GirlyMenocrats in his bare hands and worst of all he cares about the environment and doesn’t appreciate the importance of protecting zygotes, guns and marriage from islahomofashionatas:
Snerk.
Oh well. I’m too locked in ClintoNostalgia to even contemplate another president I can’t understand.
Jake
Oops, link.
Grumpy Code Monkey
No no no, he lied under oath getting a blow job, thereby committing perjury, which was considered a really serious crime back in the ’90s and merited no less than impeachment proceedings.
Of course, that’s before we came to our senses and realized that perjury’s really no big deal after all, and doesn’t merit any sort of punishment, not even a single day in jail.
The Other Steve
Joyner appears to be arguing a strawman. He’s saying Clinton is correct, but he doesn’t want to admit that Clinton is correct, so he’s looking for a pony.
Pb
Regarding James Joyner, I stopped reading here:
Riiiiight… I remember that line when Bush was using it:
Of course, it was a lie back then, but I’d forgive James Joyner if he had said this back in 2000–but not in 2007. No, “Clinton did it too!” won’t work here. Clinton didn’t invade Iraq, Clinton didn’t break our military–that was all Bush’s doing, thanks.
The Other Steve
Ok, reading Joyner more closely… I found a funny.
Isn’t this grossly misleading? The military is stressed to a much higher degree today than at any time during the 1990s. Even though we had deployments of Guard and Reserves during the 1990s for operations in Kosovo, we did not have nearly as large of a number deployed, and we certainly were not extending tours of duty like we are today.
I think I’m going to write a two page diatribe about how James Joyner is grossly misleading in attacking Clinton.
The Other Steve
Ha, Pb caught it to.
I think it’s clear that Joyner suffers from CDS(Clinton Derangement Syndrome).
The Other Steve
Heh. Joyner deleted my post pointing out that he was grossly misleading.
What a putz.
myiq2xu
The stupidest thing that Al Gore did in the 2000 campaign was to distance himself from Bill Clinton, who was then a popular incumbent President.
The second stupidest thing he did was choosing Joe Loserman as his running mate. He should have chosen a Democrat.
Of course the media and the “experts” praised those moves, although they criticized everything else Gore did.
Tsulagi
Pretty much. I don’t know all the blogs and personalities out there, but this Joyner’s post was pretty funny with shit like this…
Let’s take a look at a few numbers in a Congressional Report. Even prepared and submitted during this golden age of the honor and integrity administration. From the summary…
Damn you to hell, Bill Clinton! Putting together a legitimate coalition. Not only that, our ground troops were only around 10% of the total. Then to really top it off, no US casualties!
Admit it, Clinton, you knew Bush was going to be the next president and Decider for the really, really brilliant neocon geniuses in national security. You were trying to show him up with competence. Did your pre-hatred of Bush know no bounds?
Yeah, that “ops tempo” during the late 90s was really right on par with our Iraq adventure.
Tsulagi
Oops, forgot the Congressional Report link if anyone’s reading.
Jake
From Dead Certain (because Brain Dead Cretin didn’t fly with the publisher):
God. Help. Us.
Knowing intelligent people voted for this … thing … is like knowing the prettiest, smartest girl in high school was once married to a PCP addicted serial rapist named Puppy Biter.
Andrew
Shit, you fellas are way late to that party.
Jess
I’m still baffled as to why otherwise decent, intelligent (former) republicans so deeply HATED Bill Clinton. Can’t you disagree with his policies, question whether he is any less corrupt than any other pol, but still respect his intelligence, competence, and (I think) sincere desire to govern well? Why the hate? I think many lefties can respect someone like John McCain for what he’s done right even though they would never vote for him–I don’t see why it was so hard for people like John to give Clinton his due. John, could you please explain?
Pb
See also, FDR. And Carter. And every other major Democratic figure out there. Their party machine runs on demonizing Democrats; it has done so for a long time, and it has only gotten worse.
Yes, right up until he sold out in 2004 or so.
The Other Steve
What I find more fascinating, is how the right-wing projected their weakness onto the rest of the country.
I don’t know a single person who hated Bush. Hated some of his policies and bone-headed decisions, sure, and over time this became more and more apparent. But in the beginning virtually everybody I knew gave him the benefit of the doubt until he proved otherwise through his incompetence.
That wasn’t the case with Clinton. Right from the election in 1992 they were going “We’re doomed! Doomed I tell you! Doomed!”… none of which ever panned out.
In light of that, and then the Bush years, they have a pretty big credibility problem.
Jess
Sure, but he still deserves credit for what he’s done right and for being a basically sensible and humane person–he hasn’t earned MY hate at least. Just some mild disgust for surrendering to those far worse. But I would still like to get a sensible republican (if there are any left!) to explain the hate thing. One thing thing that seems like the common denominator on the right is a lot of fear and insecurity–was it Clinton’s apparent lack of fear and tendency to be understanding rather than condemning that pushed the hate button, do you think? If so, I’m sure no one will ever admit it…
Jess
Yes, absolutely!
capelza
TOC. That’s where I was after 2000. I figured he’s do his four years without screwing up too much and then someone competent would show up. I didn’t hate him. I was utterly unimpressed and thought he was a doofus who would have loved to go to war with Saddam, but I had no idea how crazy and stupid he and his pals really, really were. The election (or as my husband was wont to say “It’s not over til your brother counts the votes”) left a really bad taste in my mouth, but it wasn’t until Iraq, the lead up to Iraq, that I started getting shrill.
I DO hate him now. With a passion. And with a REASON. Make that plural.
John Cole
For one, I have given Clinton his due- by comparison to the last two bushes, Clinton is the most conservative president of the last 20 years. That being said, there are a number of reasons why I hated Clinton. You can judge whether they were fair or not.
1.) I was much more partisan at the time. I had been in the county GOP, teenage Republicans, had just done several years in the military, was in the national guard, and I think to some extent, tribalism played a large role.
2.) The media was much harsher on Clinton than it has been on Bush. Forget what they say about BDS- if Clinton did 1/5 the shit Bush has done, Chris Matthews would nightly be calling for his impeachment.
3.) Clinton was a master rhetorician- he was notoriously good at saying things that were 75% true, but slanted his way. It led to the perception he was lying, and for people who did not like his policies, it would literally drive you insane wondering why no one else realizes he is a lying sack of shit. I remember screaming at the television “YES THAT IS MOSTLY TRUE, BUT THE REST IS NOT.”
4.) Clinton was better at politics than Republicans were, and the triangulation was infuriating. You know how depressed and pissed you all feel at the way the Democrats give in on everything. Imagine if your party was not giving in, they were just being beaten. Handily. Repeatedly. By Clinton. OVER AND OVER AND FUCKING OVER AGAIN. It would literally drive you into a frothing rage.
5.) Right-wing talk radio came into prominence, as well as the numerous wingnut welfare orgs we now all know and love.
6.) His nonverbals were infuriating. I still hate that god damned smirk.
7.) When he was elected, Republicans had been out of power for decades.
8.) A lot of us feel that Bush got a raw deal. I remember how the budget deal went down. I am still pissed off at the ‘Bush is out of touch’ bullshit best exemplified by the grocery scanner stuff.
9.) One of the things that really infuriated me was the “FREE AT LAST, GOOD LORD FREE AT LAST” reaction from Clinton supporters when he was elected.
10.) I hated the 2 for 1 BS. Hillary wants to run for something, fine. She was not running for co-president.
11.) Clinton was notorious for making deals with Congressional Republicans and then breaking them. Saying one thing in meetings and then doing something else immediately afterwards.
12.) Democrats built up a shitload of payback during the Reagan years.
I am sure there are other things. Not to mention the Beltway media treated him like shit and that has its influences.
Jess
John,
Thank you for explaining. I guess these sorts of things (I mean the slide from simple disagreement into hate) are largely visceral in nature, but your explanation does provide good insight. I happen to really like the man, despite his many flaws, but I can see how the things that pushed the right buttons for me would push all the wrong ones for someone else. I’ve been reading “the survivor,” John Harris’s account of the Clinton White House, and that’s been very illuminating as well.
myiq2xu
They hated Clinton before he even got elected. Not “disliked.” They HATED Bill Clinton. They were foaming at the mouth in anger and were talking impeachment before he was inaugurated. I was a Republican until about 1990 and I couldn’t understand it.
Then Bush came along and they loved him, months before the first primary was held in 2000. They were throwing him money and their virgin sons and daughters. He could do no wrong.
I couldn’t figure out what they found so attractive about Bush because his record stank and he had most of Clinton’s negatives (drugs, draft-dodger, truth-challenged)) without any of the positive attributes.
I often wonder what Clinton would have accomplished if he didn’t spend his whole Presidency fighting Newt and the VRWC. Would his record be as conservative as it is now? How much of a liberal is he really? For that matter, how “liberal” is HRC?
That’s really an important question because the CW in both parties is that they are really liberals masquerading as moderates.
JWW
You,
Write a story, and take the word of a man who could not define, What the meaning of the word “Is, Is”. Give me even the slightest break on this. He killed more Americans in direct attacks than he did the current terrorist units. I’ll not deny his diplomacy skills, selling out to North Korea, technolgy to China, love to Palistine. That is okay with me, it’s part of the whole political world. If somebody wants to hand you the snake “Osama” and you can’t reach out and grab it. Shame on you, “for being you”, shame on me “for believing you would”.
rachel
JWW, WTF? I don’t know whether you need medication or a class in expository writing, but either way, you fail.
CaseyL
Yes. I remember that; I remember it distinctly. I was driving home from work the day after the election, listening to the radio. Larry King was on, talking to one of his callers. The caller was incandescent with rage. He was talking about ‘giving’ Clinton 100 days to keep all of his campaign promises, and how he (the caller) intended to file a lawsuit when Clinton failed to do so. 100 days, he kept saying; and on February 2, 1993, mark the date, he’d file the lawsuit on behalf of US voters and taxpayers and on and on and on.
King finally interrupted to say, “You are aware, are you not, that Bill Clinton won’t actually take office until January 20, 1993?”
The caller mumbled something about holding Clinton to account and the call ended.
I had no idea what a harbinger that caller was. I had no idea that we were entering Bizarro Land, where we would be staying for the next 15 years.
Say what? Republicans had held the WH since 1980. In fact, from 1968 to 1992, the Democrats had been in the WH only 4 years. What do you mean “out of power”?
Even in Congress, the GOP agenda was dominant. Reagan got every budget increase for the Pentagon he wanted. The changes in taxation, in corporate governance, in banking… the very changes that have led directly to our huge gap between rich and poor, that led to corporations devouring one another and laying off tens of thousands of people each time, that destroyed unions and allowed outsourcing so the kinds of jobs which allowed blue-collar workers to earn decent salaries no longer exist… those were all things the GOP wanted, and got.
John Cole
The House.
And in my case, I live in West Virgina, we have never, to my knowledge, held the house and Senate. There was the significant perception on my part of never having been in power, other than holding the Presidency. And even then my perception was one in which Reagan had been shit on for 8 years.
And btw- I am simply telling you what many of the perceptions were at the time. There is no point in your trying to “disprove” those perceptions retroactively.
Pb
Heh; if only. Ronald Reagan, George H. W. Bush, Bill Clinton, George W. Bush… which one got impeached, and for what? Truth is stranger than fiction.
Jess
I agree, and I appreciate your honesty in explaining where you were coming from then. I’m glad you’ve questioned the brainwashing. I hope more people–left and right–do the same.
Jake
Heh. Are we talking about Clinton or Bush43?
[Hastens from the thread].