Longtime readers know what I think about Sam Brownback- I disagree with virtually EVERYTHING the man says, and I am currently struggling to think of something about which we do agree, but I have a certain amount of respect for the man. His principles may not be my principles, but he, at least, has some, which is more than I can say for many others. Last night on Countdown, Keith Olbermann and Ana Marie Cox discussed the odious Mitt Romney and his “position” on Larry Craig’s transgressions, which was to immediately cut all ties, whitewash his website to rewrite past press releases to remove Craig’s name, and generally being an opportunistic and unprincipled piece of shit:
OLBERMANN: Are we missing something here? Is there some base that he is appealing by being cruel to somebody in trouble? I‘m quite serious about his. Where the reaction is the reason he was doing something like this is that nobody ever stopped him before, I am going to be the one that shows him what the law is. Is there something to that?
COX: I think there may be. Although I think his understanding of even the conservative base is rather incomplete. I think that someone like Sam Brownback, you may disagree with him, but you really can‘t doubt his social conservative credentials, at least has the strength of character to extend Christian mercy. I know Mitt Romney is not himself Christian—or that‘s a point of debate.
But to show some kind of compassion for somebody who—at least their family is going through something really terrible. I think it smacks of opportunism for him to just throw the guy aside.
Time and time again, Sam Brownback and Mike Huckabee, evolution deniers both, men who I think would be absolute disasters as President, show that at the very least they have a certain amount of decency that eludes the rest of the GOP filth.
I respect them for that. I will not support their campaigns, I do not support their outlook on life, but I do respect them for having some integrity and some basic human decency.
Jake
I cant help but wonder if KO is being a tad coy. He should know better than anyone that Das Base demands red meat. In this case bloody lumps of Larry Craig. Romney is doing exactly what the 28% want.
Well not exactly, but he’s not going to burn the guy at the stake so they have to settle for out and fie upon thee sinner!
And to judge from the YRs reaction when Glenn Murphy was accused of assaulting a fellow YR while he slept, wiping all traces a person’s existence when they are in suspected of teh gaying is SOP.
Punchy
John, I’m about to meet the guy (I’m serious). I’ll letcha know next week how he is in person, away from the campaign trail and the spotlight.
ThymeZone
What is happening to Sen. Craig is a witchhunt. It’s a witchhunt about sex, and in particular, gay sex.
Craig plead guilty to disorderly conduct, a minor offense, which gives us an indication of just how much clout the authorities thought their phony charges would have if taken to the letter of the law. Basically, none. Basically, if you go to Hooters and make a suggestive (non obscene)
getsture to a waitress there, your companions will laugh and enjoy it, but if you go into a men’s
room and make an innocuous foot gesture, you can charged with a crime, and lose your job.
That, members of the mob, is what we are talking about here. A rigged system that sets up a witchhunt designed to trap and embarass gay people. There is no way whatsoever that any person who claims to hold liberty dear can look at this and see it anything other than a denial of
liberty based on pure bigotry. It isn’t about the absurd exhibitionist sex notions we’ve seen bandied on these pages, the man wasn’t charged with any such act, and there is no general problem or even a small problem of exhibitionist sex acts being performed in this country, gay or straight. Except maybe on cable tv. But not in the real world.
So here is what happens: People on the right line up to act out their phony schtick to “protect values” and circle their hypcritical wagons around themselves and their party, and call for the head of Larry Craig.
And on the left, do freedom-loving liberals line up to defend Craig and stand up for basic liberty and the right to be left alone? They do not, they applaud the grotesque circus going on on the other side of the room, calculating that it “serves Craig right” and that his downfall
works out as a political plus for “our side.” In other words, liberty means a lot until it’s about somebody you don’t like, whom you view as disposable, and who you can trash to make yourself look better.
In other words, a mob, a witchhunt, and the left AND right both using the disposable Craig as a human sacrifice for their own political interests.
It’s a shameful and disgusting situation. Craig would probably not survive reelection in Idaho, but whether he did or not, who cares? It’s Idaho, a Republican stronghold of puritans, young earth creationists, religious hypocrites and damned fools. They’ll just elect another butthead
in a suit to go to Washington and represent the stupid in our country. Taking out Craig serves no purpose whatever.
The right thing to do here would be to leave Craig alone. And thereby, to leave us all alone, and let people live their lives if they aren’t hurting anyone. Just the kind of thing Craig himself would not have the sense to do. That’s what’s right. And if it unfairly benefitted him,
so be it. A protected liberty is worth more than injuring some guy you don’t like.
As for Brownback …. any time a “christian” displays the application of mercy and respect for others, I’m for it. And when he doesn’t, I’m against it. Brownback himself may be capable of mercy, but unfrotunately the voters he appeals to don’t seem to share the same … uh .. values.
aliceandbob
Brownback’s got not being Mitt Romney going for him, but no one told Cox that “Mormons aren’t real Christians” is old meme.
Jill
I have no respect for an adult who doesn’t believe in evolution.
Third Eye Open
Oh, how I long for the halcyon days of yore when when those who ran for president were judged based upon the strength of their arguments and the percieved wisdom of their decisions…
ok, i’m sorry, I was reading my 6th grade civics textbook, and I got it confused with reality…neva’mind
Bubblegum Tate
I’m in the same boat–with regards to Huckabee in particular. I could never fathom voting for the guy. He’s a creationist, for fuck’s sake! That right there disqualifies him, to say nothing of damn near all of his other stances. And yet he has a decency, sincerity, and integrity that none of the frontrunners could ever dream of having.
Jill
What are you people saying? You respect idiots b/c they stick to their idiotic beliefs? Isn’t that what so many like(d) about GWB?
Zifnab
I hear he’s charismatic as hell, and he knows how to talk to a “liberal” (read: a person who isn’t totally absorbed in tax cuts and brown-people bashing) well enough to generally achieve acceptance.
Generally speaking, I’m behind you, TZ. But what you have to understand first and foremost is that Craig is one of the guys who pens this legislative filth. Police don’t just wander into bathrooms of their own accord. They get proded in by “get tough” DAs and “serious” police chiefs who are in turn pushed to do these stings by Protecting-Your-Family Congressmen. These are the same Congressmen that help pick out superior court justices who believe oogling a girl’s chest at Hooters is free-market capitalism, but foot-tapping for gay sex in a public restroom is an arrestable offense.
If you don’t like these stupid laws and their stupid enforcement, get guys like Craig the hell out of office. Problem solved.
Incertus (Brian)
The problem is that what you’re calling integrity and basic human decency doesn’t extend to pregnant women or gays in general. I can’t respect men who hold the view that women are either too stupid or too weak-willed to make decisions about their health, or that gays are sub-humans who don’t get the same rights as everyone else in the US do, no matter how kind they are to Larry Craig in this one instance.
Dreggas
I haven’t watched the debates and haven’t really seen Huckabee or Brownback speak. If they don’t demonize people then I will give them credit for their sympathies here and being charitable people who practice what they preach. The moment they start proposing marriage amendments and demonizing people is the moment I read their charity as the same hypocrisy infecting the rest of their holier than thou ilk.
ThymeZone
Well, aside from the fact that you just blew off a critical piece of my post which addressed that point and basically trumped your assertion (Craig is from Idaho, and you are going to get another idiot in a suit to replace him, no matter what happens right now) …..
You want to get him out of office the right way. Not by winking at a witch hunt that you would rightly be enraged over if it were happening to somebody you didn’t detest.
That’s my whole point. Saying that its okay to get rid of Craig this way is Ends Justify Means thinking. The very kind of thinking that we hate the righties for. The kind of thinking that makes people dispoable in favor of political convenience. A twisted way of thinking that corrupts everything it touches.
Jake
Fixed.
ThymeZone
Now it’s fixed.
Helena Montana
I think
is about the best description I have ever, ever seen of Mitt Romney’s state of being.
ThymeZone
Bzzt. Rule violation, use of the word “ilk.”
Five minute penalty.
Punchy
Because breaking the law by Senators should go unpunished? And why are there these kinds of laws? Because of Senator Craig and his ilk. If you can’t see the comes-full-circle aspect of this, then you’re being obtuse.
Jake
As for if we leave them alone they’ll leave us alone. Here is how a city is countering a police brutality lawsuit:
Care to guess the city? I’ll give you a hint. It’s in a state that begins with “I” but it ain’t Idaho.
Andrew
Fuck that jazz, yo.
The hate the sin, love the sinner is the worst kind of two-faced, cowardly belief system. Because it’s cop out excuse for actually hating the sinners.
These folks can take their hatred of science and gays and go screw themselves wild in a Minneapolis airport bathroom with their claims of loving the living fuck out of evolutionary biologists and homosexuals.
ThymeZone
What? He plead guilty and was sentenced in accordance with a disorderly conduct violation. What part of that qualifies as “unpunished?”
What is the matter with you?
A man deserves to lose his job over a gay foot gesture? In that case, Craig is right, it is immoral and should be against the law to be gay.
If Craig is wrong, then he deserves to be left alone.
The Other Steve
God I so love Mitt Romney. I really hope he’s the GOP nominee.
Helluva a guy, easily the best the Republican party has to offer.
ThymeZone
Bingo.
John S.
Now it’s fixed.
ThymeZone
Poetic justice is for Republicans and other stupid assholes who confuse feeling good with doing good.
I prefer straight up logical, rational and correct justice.
Leave Craig alone, that’s correct justice.
ThymeZone
Put another way? If you only support justice for the people you like and people who deserve it, then you have no justice at all. In short, you have Republican justice.
I think we have to do better than that.
Jake
Even more fixed.
The Other Steve
Oh, fuck off, grasshopper.
ThymeZone
Go fuck yourself.
The Other Steve
I am McLovin.
ThymeZone
You’re from Minn, the land of the delicate people who need cops to protect them in the men’s room.
John Cole
In general, I tend to agree with Thymezone (stop the presses), but I do think he is conflating two different thigns. I don’t think ANYONE here likes what is happening to Craig, and wish it were not, but I think there are many people (myself included) who think if this is going to happen to someone, it couldn’t happen to be a better target (except maybe Rick Santorum).
There is a difference between wishing this on Craig, liking that it is happening to him, and snickering because it has.
None of this changes the fact that Mitt Romney is a total asshole who should never be allowed anywhere near the White House.
John S.
Ding, ding, ding.
I wouldn’t wish this kind of situation on anyone, and I don’t particualrly like what is happening to Craig. But I sure as hell am I snickering, especially after seeing his “naughty boy” comments about Clinton.
Republicans need to learn to remove the fucking plank from their own eyes first.
Andrew
Fixed.
Punchy
You said “left alone”. I understood that to mean he shouldn’t have been arrested. I see now you mean post-arrest.
Misunderstanding.
Justin
Uh, call me crazy, but I don’t want my Senator having sex in public restrooms with people who aren’t his wife.
So I’m cool with this witchhunt.
Andrew
I just want to go on record as wishing this sort of thing on Republican closet cases, liking when it happens to them, and snickering when it does.
But they’re the only people I wish it on, so I can’t really support it in general.
The Other Steve
People shouldn’t be having sex in public restrooms. Pretty simple. Keep your dick in your pocket until you get to your own room.
This has got nothing to do with whether Craig should resign. Or even whether or not we make fun of him.
As usual, you are trying to confuse issues while trolling for an argument.
sglover
ThymeZone is correct. I get as much schadenfreude as anyone at seeing members of the “Party of Values” trolling the public toilets, but everything about the arrest stinks like the rankest horseshit. And how the hell are the Twin Cities served by putting cops on toilet stall stakeout?
The Other Steve
That’s ok. I just want the GOP to nominate him. There’s no way he could win the election.
BARRASSO
I must object to this slur of my state! We are mostly skinhead neo nazis in the north and mormons in the south, how dare you call us young earth creationists! BTW don’t let Romney fool you with the mormon thing we all know he is a android.
LarryB
ThymeZone,
You’re right, but the witches are all riding the GOP elephants. It’s hard to find lefty’s calling for Craig’s scalp. Schadenfreude up the kazoo, of course (and, heck, even us PC-types aren’t above a good gay bathroom joke.
ThymeZone
Well, before do the hug and kumbaya thing*, yes, there are people here who either are, or are spoofing, great satisfaction in what is happening to Craig. That’s unfortunate because it is cutting off the nose to spite the face of justice here. Craig should be made an example of fair treatment, that would be the greatest justice. Instead, his party, which rose to power on values hypocrisy, is more than happy to toss the guy under the bus as you say, and run over him again and again.
* In the most tasteful way, of course!
HyperIon
well, asshole politicians like Mitt, yes.
but Mitt’s pandering would not be effective if there were not millions of voters who want NOTHING to do with teh gay. anything to do with homosexuality drives them crazy. being forced to acknowledge the reality of homosexuality drives them crazy. this is where the analog of racism comes in. white supremacists have the same reaction when they have to consider interracial marriage/sex. we do well to not forget that there are still a lot of homophobes and racists in the electorate.
i don’t think craig should be forced to resign. the repubs who are calling on him to resign are very obviously trying to cover their asses. let them show their true colors.
kudos to brownback and huckabee. perhaps they asked themselves: what would jesus do? but one cannot use this approach to solve, for example, foreign policy problems; thus their faith, although sincere, is irrelevant wrt fitness as president. however, it does demonstrate some integrity.
if the choice for pres was between brownback and romney, i’d vote for brownback in a second. this triangulating bullshit has got to stop. that’s the most off-putting thing about hillary for me.
i want a candidate who says: x is the right thing to do. it may be complicated, it may be expensive, but because it is the right thing to do, we can and will find a way to accomplish x.
x = universal health care
x = rational immigration policy
x = quality public education
x != spreading democracy throughout the world by invading countries
Jake
Well, duh.
ThymeZone
He wasn’t accused of having sex, he was accused of tapping his foot and making a hand gesture.
So in the USA, and specifically in Minnesota, you can lose your job and go to jail for being gay and indicating it in public.
Nice. You used to be a Republican, didn’t you? Or am I confusing you with some other concern(ed) poster?
The Other Steve
You can’t understand why the Airport Commission wouldn’t want people fucking in the public restrooms?
Why stop at the restrooms? Why not just use the waiting areas next to the gates?
Let’s all hook up at gate 121 on the Gold concourse for an orgy.
Bubblegum Tate
Well, no, I respect Huckabee because he doesn’t pretend to not hold those idiotic beliefs. He doesn’t try to deflect with some twaddle about being a “compassionate conservative” or some bullshit like that. At least not from what I’ve seen. Maybe he does and I’ve missed it. He’s very frank about his positions, which is fairly nice, even though his positions are pretty much the opposite of nice.
So let me reiterate: I find him politically radioactive. I could never even consider voting for the guy despite the modicum of respect I have for him.
ThymeZone
Or, somebody said that, I thought it was you but now I am not sure. Anyway, it’s an apt description. The Repubs are lining up now to feast on the rotting flesh of Craig’s corpse.
The Other Steve
Dude, we’re not stupid and naive. He wasn’t looking for toilet paper.
Who has lost their job and why? The guy can’t be impeached over this. The only thing that is happening is people in his own party are yelling and screaming and demanding he resign.
ThymeZone
1. No such charge was made, or plead to.
2. Is fucking in restrooms a big problem in Minnesota, Steve? Facts, figures, case histories? Is there injury? Where, when, and to whom?
3. What is it about Lake Wobegone that makes people behave like idiots in this fashion? Is it genetic? Is there just a moral breakdown out there? Have you so rejected Jesus that you have to post cops in your crappers?
Minnesota — Land of the Sex Police.
myiq2xu
No, Larry Craig deserves what he’s getting.
Not because he’s gay, or bi, or bi-curious or whatever. And not because he got caught midemeanoring in the airport shitter.
He deserves what he’s getting because he asked for it. He wants gays to be stigmatized, discriminated against, and/or punished.
You reap what your sow, and Craig is reaping the whirlwind.
ThymeZone
No! ERGO, THE THREAD.
God almighty man, is this some kind of weird Minnestota humor thing?
The Other Steve
If Craig had walked into the women’s restroom… made footsies with the women in the next stall and tried to reach under the barrier.
What charges do you think he would have faced?
Punchy
I’m so confused by TZ’s argument. Is it:
1) The law Craig broke is an unjust one?
2) The fact that he broke the law shouldn’t matter for his employment?
3) The fact that he broke that law but is most certainly gay makes it OK?
If it’s #1, too bad. Hypocrite Central. I’ll pile on myslef
If it’s #2, too bad. A U.S. Congressman cannot break the law without repercussions. It’s part of the job, just like an NFLer. With all that money comes extra scrunity. I dont care if he’s caught stealing smokes…a law is a law. If you cant follow it, you dont deserve to rep the peeps.
If it’s #3, then that is complete horseshit. Different treatment for different folks is unAmerican.
The Other Steve
Right, and you can’t get arrested for soliciting, because you didn’t have sex with the undercover cop. Whatever.
Big enough problem that the police decided to operate a sting all summer. Craig wasn’t the only guy arrested.
Dude, you are losing this argument. Give it up while you still have some self respect.
ThymeZone
Okay, I’ll assume that isn’t some odd pig farmer joke, and that you meant “reap what you sow.”
But no, that is not how real government should work. Citizens should reap the justice they are entitled to. Being arrested for being gay is not justice. A rigged system that traps gay foot gestures and turns them into crimes while rude straight gestures are considered funny and endearing is wrong.
If a man whistles at a woman, do you assume that if left unchecked he will leap upon the female and fuck her in public? Do you call a cop? Then why would you call one for a gay gesture? Because gays are more dangerous and more likely to fuck in public than straight people are?
WTF, cut the crap please.
When you have one kind of justice for the people you despise and another for yourself, then you have …. Republican government.
Sorry, this idiot mob idea ain’t flyin with me and Im here all day to smack it down.
The Other Steve
I believe this is what ppGaz is arguing, actually.
ThymeZone
Tapping a foot is not soliciting. AGreeing to sex for pay is soliciting.
WTF is the matter with you, man?
Dreggas
oh for a baseball bat and 5 minutes in a room with those two motherfuckers.
The Other Steve
Who is arguing he resigns?
certainly not John Cole
ThymeZone
Nice dodge. Who is having sex in those restrooms? Facts, numbers? Who is being injured? Anything?
Or just he mumblings of the self-justifying Sex Police?
You got nothing, do you?
ThymeZone
Who knows what the hell you are arguing? Who ever knows, in fact?
Face
Fucking Christ, you obtuse prick: HE DID NOT GET ARRESTED “FOR BEING GAY”. That’s not what the arrest record said. That’s not a crime. Quit with the bullshit, please.
He got arrested for soliciting sex in a public place. Same as if he’d solicit a hooker on a street corner. That’s the law, and he broke it. Try being honest for a change.
ThymeZone
Nobody needs you to clarify my argument, Steve. It’s in the first sentence of my first post to the thread.
If anyone can’t figure out what the means without help from you, then I suggest that person go and do something else. It doesn’t need a lot of disambiguation, does it?
myiq2xu
The word that comes to mind is obtuse.
Craig’s guilt is not in question, because he admitted it by pleading guilty. The only legal penalty imposed on Lavatory Larry was a small fine and probation.
What’s happening to him now is he is being shunned and cast out of his own party. I’m not doing it, nor is the government. The GOP (which, contrary to their beliefs, is NOT the government) is punishing Senator Wide-Stance for being gay.
ThymeZone
Nope, that is exactly what he got arrested for, which is why I wrote the first sentence to my first post here.
I was right when I wrote it and I am still right.
Solicitation requires an assumption of prostitution and a clear agreement that the services of a prostitute are being agreed to. I know of no allegation of such in this case, do you?
He was arrested for being gay.
myiq2xu
If you really want to know, do the research yourself. Go stake out a men’s room somewhere for the next year or two.
ThymeZone
Yes, it’s called a Witch Hunt, ergo my first, and all subsequent, posts.
rawshark
He was not soliciting.
What I like about this is that its people like Craig who make the cops do undercover stings in airport restrooms. You’d think he’d stay find somewhere else to practice tap.
ThymeZone
Nope, not my job to prove that somebody else’s argument is right. That’s his job, and not a single fact to support it has been posted here in two days. If you find one, let me know.
If you don’t know the basic rules of this sort of debate, maybe you should retire your handle, and find another hobby?
To my knowledge I myself have posted the only salient fact in this context, which came from Los Angeles County arrest records indicating that lewd acts made up something on the order of one tenth to one quarter of one percent of all arrests in a recent year. Got anything different?
We are looking for sex in public restrooms. Not foot tapping. Sex. Or as described yesterday by one drunken poster, “Naked butt” sex.
Whatcha got?
Face
TZ–please show me the arrest report that lists the crime as “being gay”. Two can play at this stupid game.
Oh, by the way? you said this:
You’re so full of shit. Seriously, stop digging. Let’s highlight that link:
Jake
Shouldn’t that be Idaho, rather than Minnesota?
Thanks in part to Craig, gays and lesbians don’t have federal protection from work place discrimination. However, the only people I hear calling for him to lose his job are his pals on the right. So far all that will happen is a Senate investigation as required by the rules because he pled guilty.
myiq2xu
No, it’s your job to prove that your argument is right. You have disputed that there were others arrested, and you claim that restroom sex isn’t a problem.
Prove it.
rawshark
Men propositioning each other in bathrooms is a gay thing. He was arrested for propositioning another man in a bathroom. If he wasn’t gay he wouldn’t have done that right? Just because being gay isn’t yet a crime doesn’t mean it wasn’t the underlying cause of the arrest.
ThymeZone
This is what is known on the Tubes as a “whoosh.”
If you don’t know what I meant, and see that I am obviously right, then fuck it. I don’t care. I think quite a few do see it, as evidenced by the thread.
A gay gesture of desire to have sex is judged a crime. Not having the sex, not agreeing to sex for money, not exhibitionist sex in public, just a gesture of interest. A crime.
If that’s okay with you then you aren’t the person I am interested in talking to. You don’t get it, and I don’t care.
It’s not okay with me and that’s why I’m posting here.
If you don’t like that then tough shit. Got it?
Zifnab
Listen, TZ. If a guy pens a law, and then breaks the law he authored, and then – on top of it all – gets outed as gay because his law was designed specifically to target and out gay men, then I say justice has been done.
Why? Not because the law itself is necessarily just, but because even the law’s author is beholden to its precepts. Here we have a gay man villifying other gay men, caught in his own net. I understand what you’re saying, that the law and the law enforcement surrounding it are themselves inherently unjust, but then you are basically arguing “don’t let Larry Craig craft legislation”.
But, if a law is on the books, and it is being enforced, then by all means it should target everyone equally – especially Republican Senators that push for it to be passed. In that sense, Larry Craig isn’t being fined and fired for being gay or foot-tapping. He’s being fined and fired for supporting legislation he had no intention of following. If he didn’t like the law, if he thought it was unfair or discriminatory or frivolous or unconstitutional, he could have hired a lawyer and contested it. He could have dragged that law all the way to the Supreme Court. He could have pressed to have it stripped from the books for good so that it would never harass another man on the can again.
He didn’t do any of that. He probably still supports the law in principle. If he had the opportunity to vote on a federal ban on gay-foot-tapping-solicitation in public restrooms, I can tell you right off what his vote would be.
That’s how our government works. Either you fight the law if you think its unfair, or you accept and support the law if you think it is fair. Craig is being played by his own rules. It is inherently just.
Punchy
TZ, can you provide that link?
ThymeZone
You cannot be fucking serious. Propositioning is a crime?
I have to repeat, I can’t actually believe you are saying you think this: Propositioning is a crime, and that’s okay with you? You actually want to have Sex Police patrolling for propositioning?
Like I said, leave people the hell alone.
sglover
All I can say is that the Twin Cities must be a crime-free paradise, if guys touching shoes together and maybe even exchanging smoldering glances merits a stake-out.
And even if one grants that there’s some merit in these kinds of operations, setting off a cop’s gaydar seems like the flimsiest kind of probable cause. Worthy of a banana republic, really. But, that does seem to be the direction we’re heading…..
Well, on a side note, it struck me as a little odd that this episode happened in the Twin Cities. I lived there in the late 80’s, and they seemed to have a pretty sensible attitude towards vice. They didn’t want streetwalkers, and with one exception they didn’t want concentrations of sex businesses. So there were a fair number of massage joints and porn shops, but they had to be a certain distance from each other, and the cops generally left them alone. In addition, Mpls had a big thriving gay community, which was populated by folks attracted to the city’s tolerant attitude.
I would’ve expected this sort of horseshit sting operation further south. Like when THREE Tampa cops netted PeeWee Herman for the crime of fondling himself in a porn theater. But then, Florida’s absolutely renowned as a bastion of virtue and chastity, right?
jrg
TZ,
Normally I like your posts, but you’re off base.
Total nonsense. Hooters waitresses get paid to wear skimpy clothes. Getting leered at is what they signed up for. When I go to the restroom in a public place, I’m going in to take a dump, not to see some hot man-on-man action.
Craig, Foley, etc show the American people why conservatives are so sex-obsessed – they want the government to legislate morality because they are closet cases with no self control.
The government has no place in people’s sex lives. Conservatives need to learn this lesson the hard way. If it means outing every gay republican in DC, then so be it.
So long as the GOP insists on snooping around in other people’s underwear drawers, they are fair game. It’s never going to stop until conservatives cry “uncle”. I don’t like government intrusion into private affairs any more than you do, but it’s not going to stop until cultural conservatives are out of office.
What you are suggesting seems to be “allow conservatives to extend their time in office as long as possible by refusing to play by the same rules they do”. I say screw that, there is no “moral high ground”, because conservatives simply do not understand what it means to “live and let live”.
It’s open season on the motherfker.
There is a difference between spending $100 million in taxpayer dollars for the Starr report vs. cops trying to prevent anonymous sex in a public bathroom. This difference exists regardless of if you want to acknowledge it.
We’re not talking about constitutional amendments or expensive GOP witch-hunts. The fact that Craig is a senator is not material to the fact that he was trolling for sex in a public bathroom.
I don’t understand how you can possibly see this as a violation of Craig’s privacy.
Even if it was a violation of his privacy, I would not care, anyway, because when the GOP campaigns on their “family values”, they are making their private lives everyone else’s business, anyway.
Maybe the next Republican they elect won’t be as obsessed with genitalia legislation – ever think of that?
The Other Steve
What charges would have been filed if he’d walked into the women’s restroom and done the same exact thing?
And please don’t dodge this question, it is central to your argument.
jaime
Arresting people having sex in bathrooms is not unjust. Craig wasn’t trolling for someone to bring back to a hotel…he was trolling for someone to have sex with IN the bathroom.
Face
Here’s a question I pose to others here. Is TZ ever wrong?
ThymeZone
You are making the wrong argument. If your argument is about the law, then he was sentenced and the thing is done. It’s over. I don’t agree with the basis of the law, the way the law is enforced, or its application, but it’s done.
Now he is being asked to resign from his job. He was arrested for being gay, plead guilty to disorderly conduct, paid a fine. Now they want his job, because he acted gay.
That appears to be okay with you. It is not okay with me, therefore please refer to my first sentence to this thread, an assertion which was correct when I made it and remains correct now: It’s a witch hunt.
The Other Steve
The answer is 41
ThymeZone
You’ll never know, so confine yourself the question at hand here and address that. If you think I’m wrong, make a winning argument against my position. If you can’t, then … I guess you have your answer WRT to this thread, right?
Let me ask you a question: If you think you are right about this topic right here, why are you wasting your time with a horseshit question like the one above?
The Other Steve
What charges would have been filed if he’d walked into the women’s restroom and done the same exact thing?
myiq2xu
I’m sure that the local police in Minneapolis were sitting around, with nothing but boring murders, rapes and robberies to investigate, and decided that just for fun they would arbitrarily stake out the airport men’s room and arrest anyone they suspected of being gay.
They probably heard some urban legend that anyone who taps their feet in a toilet stall is gay, so they figured that was all the evidence they would need to make arrests.
It was just Larry Craig’s bad luck to decide to use that restroom.
ThymeZone
Over what period of time? Who is injured by this gay foot tapping? I have been openly an verbally propositioned for sex in public restrooms many times, and have never been injured. I just said no thanks and went on my way.
Do people in Minnesota require police protection from this activity? Why? Are they scared little fraidy cats?
ThymeZone
That’s what you meant, isn’t it, Mister Low IQ?
ThymeZone
You tell me. Seriously, you tell me.
After the foot tap, does he say, oh, sorry, I am in the wrong restroom? And withdraw?
Or does he jump over the stall and rape the woman?
Have you actually thought any of this through, man?
I accientally walked into a ladies room once under very funny circumstances and got treated to a round of applause when I came running out. We all had a good laugh at it.
Of course, this is Arizona, where people don’t need cops to protect their weenies in the restroom. We protect our own weenies. We are men, not mice.
rawshark
TZ, read closely, gay propositioning is a crime. I don’t agree it should be but it is apparently. That’s what he was arrested for. As you said he did nothing else but indicate he wanted to do something with the guy who was wearing the shoes in the next stall.
Once again, I know its hot out so maybe you’re getting a little irritable, its not okay with me that propositioning is a crime and I don’t want Sex Police patrolling for propositioning. I was only explaining how its impossible to say he wasn’t arrested for being gay. That cop was looking for gays to arrest. The cop put himself in a place to be hit on, encouraged the attention then arrested the guy. Simple trap to catch gays in public activites, same thing they do in florida to catch guys who get horny in park bathrooms surrounded by scary black men.
jrg
Well, you hijacked the thread, lost the argument, and now you’ve resorted to name-calling. Heck of a job, TZ. You never even answered The Other Steve’s question:
sglover
There’s no denying a certain poetic justice in a “Party of Values” guy getting caught in a web that he helped weave. Particularly a GAY “Party of Values” guy. Here in the Beltway, there are always rumors that there are many of them in the GOP. They are truly the lowest of the low.
Maybe they’re not real homosexuals, as this terrific performance explains (fast connection required).
rawshark
None because there wouldn’t be a male cop in the next stall waiting to return the signal if it came.
Face
Either disorderly conduct, or harrassment.
Still amazed that when asked an easy question, and his argument is soooooo strong, that he has to avoid it by pulling the old 5th grade canard, “you first!”
I’m betting he’s next going to tell me that, no, those wouldn’t be the charges filed, actually.
Dreggas
As this email sent to Kevin Drum points out solicitation like this is illegal and has been made so and is in fact related to the sexuality of the persons involved. The laws regarding it go back a long way and it is considered solicitation.
sglover
THIS is supposed to merit ARREST?!?!
Psycheout
Here’s what Sam Brownback had to say:
He sounds a lot more tolerant and Christian than most of you here. Kudos to John Cole for recognizing the difference between a phoney like Mittens and good men like Brownback and Huckabee.
Judge not lest ye be judged.
jaime
It’s the same thing they do by dressing up a female cop as a hooker and sticking her in a place where prostitution is a problem.
Or dress an officer up shabbily and place him/her in an area where crack is being sold.
It’s called a sting. They have stings for prostitution, drugs, and yes, gay men having sex in public bathrooms. It’s a problem that warrants police action. Call me a gay basher, if you wish, but I don’t want ANYBODY having sex in a bathroom that I’m in gay OR straight.
myiq2xu
Ok Thyme, let’s see:
You are admitting that the foot-tapping is a signal for gay sex, and that Larry Craig is gay (which he denies) and was signaling his desire for gay sex. Your argument is that that this was the sole basis upon which he was arrested.
Where, pray tell, do you think Craig intended to consumate the act he was signalling for?
You must feel really special getting openly propositioned “many times” for sex in restrooms. I myself, have never been propositioned in a public restroom, or perhaps I lack the “gaydar” to recognize the signals.
But to clarify, were you propositioned for sex many times in restrooms, or were you propositioned many times to have sex in restrooms? Because the first, while it could be annoying, is not a crime, but the second would prove the point you seek to deny.
The issue isn’t gay sex, it’s sex in public restrooms. Persons engaging in heterosexual sex in public areas would be subject to prosecution as well.
BTW – No one here is advocating a prohibition on gays or gays sex. That is the GOP position. Nor is anyone here demanding that Craig retire because of this incident. That is also the majority opinion of the GOP.
Dreggas
Yes it is and it’s been used to charge gay men with solicitation for a long time.
Badtux
If it may seem that those of us who are, err, not deranged right-wing ideologues with no connection to reality, are piling upon this poor man for being gay… err, no. We’re piling upon this poor man for being a closeted t-room queen who stridently claims he isn’t gay. It’s as if the Rev. Jesse Jackson held ridiculous news conferences where he claimed he wasn’t black, or if Senator Hillary Clinton held news conferences where she claimed she wasn’t a woman. That would be funny, and of course anybody with any kind of sense of humor would point and laugh. As for what Larry Craig does in the privacy of his own bathroom, well, that is of no concern to me. I do wish he’d keep it in his own bathroom though, rather than in a public restroom where he can irritate people who just need to take a dump. But that’s a different issue altogether.
– Badtux the not-Penguin Penguin
Dreggas
According to the police report he was arrested for these gestures, these gestures have long been used to bust people for similar acts, and yes it’s primarily been gay men, closeted ones specifically.
jenniebee
TZ, you’ve got a nice theory going there, but it just doesn’t wash. You’re simultaneously arguing from several different directions at once, and they’re contradictory:
1. All Craig did was make some innocuous foot and hand gestures. Those gestures were not the preliminaries for engaging in sex in a public bathroom, therefore it’s unjust to arrest him for trying to have sex there.
and…
2. The cops wanted to bust gays, so they hung out in public toilets and waited for someone to make the exact signs that gay men make when they want sex in a bathroom. This is targeting gays and is therefore unjust.
and…
3. The ‘Sex Police’ are out in force to stop people from having sex in public restrooms, thus eroding our civil liberties; this is particularly ridiculous of them, in light of your Judith Miller-esque “I know I was right” insistence that…
4. There is no sex taking place in these public spaces at all, and the existence of these foot taps and hand gestures, the police’s knowledge of them, Craig’s arrest for using them, the assignment of the cop to the washroom as a result of complaints about this very thing happening there are none of them evidence that sex was taking place there. The possibility that it was mere coincidence that Craig made these signals and then reached under the stall in the manner that other men do to ask their neighbor to start a hand-job right then and there, all in a bathroom that had gained a reputation as a place where such things happen, should not be discounted no matter how statistically improbable it is that that sequence of events would occur randomly.
If you could just choose which one of these you want to stick to, it’d make things a lot smoother as this goes on.
Dreggas
Here’s the much vaunted “Tearoom Trade” about this entire practice
Badtux
For those interested, Princess Sparkle Pony (who follows Condi’s hairdo so you don’t have to) has helpfully provided a ton of snarky commentary and information on the infamous restroom (which apparently is well-known as a “meat market” for the “tea-room trade”) and the “tea-room trade” itself, including what the “tap code” all means. See my link-fest to the pink hooved one’s relevant posts if you want links to details that will have you running to your bathroom to wash off your eyeballs afterwards…
– Badtux the Eyeball-washin’ Penguin
Dave
The “Moral Majority” types that put these laws into place in the first place, of which Larry Craig played an active part. It’s a bed of his own making, if he doesn’t find it comfortable, tough shit.
Maybe if more of these fools get caught, they’ll learn how silly all puritanical bullshit is.
myiq2xu
Hmmmm. Most of these arrests came about in what way? Sting operations? That would indicate that the LAPD considered them a low priority, which would be consistent with a misdemeanor crime.
It seems strange to me for someone to hang out in restrooms looking for sex, but, different strokes for different folks as they say. But if all they plan to do is meet there and then go to a private location (such as a motel room) to have sex, I don’t see any reason why that should be illegal.
The problem is they don’t just meet there, they have sex there too. Here in California, the crime is not soliciting sex, it’s soliciting to have sex in public.
There is a park in a town near where I live, which has a zoo and a children’s play area with rides. Somehow this park got known as a meeting place for gay sex, and despite public announcements of police sting operations and numerous arrests, there were still complaints by people walking in on man-on-man action.
Finally they bulldozed the restrooms.
Badtux
Err, when I want to take a dump, I don’t want to have to wait for a couple of closeted queens to finish giving each other a blow-job beneath the stalls. Restrooms are there for taking a dump, not for sex. At best we’re talking misuse of public property.
I frankly don’t care where people do sex, or with which gender they have sex, as long as it isn’t in public places where it may scare the horses and frighten small children or impair my ability to take a dump.
dingo
Just for the sake of accuracy, soliciting a sex act from am member of one’s own gender does not automatically mean the person soliciting is gay or lesbian. Social science research over the decades concludes that a significant percentage of heterosexuals have had same sex encounters, sometimes repeatedly, without being gay. Just as a number of gay and lesbian people have had sex with the opposite gender and remain gay. This is not referring to bisexuals, a quite different matter.
None of us have know that Senator Craig is gay and to label him so is just a guess, not a fact.
Dreggas
Agreed, that was perhaps the most interesting part of reading about this. a good portion of the men involved during the guys study (the tearoom trade) were het and not getting enough at home so silent, anonymous sex in the mens room was an outlet vs. having a mistress and getting caught etc.
ThymeZone
I am of course generous to a fault. I just want to extend an invitation to all of the delicate and sensitive men of Minnesota to come out here to Arizona where real men will teach you how to protect your weenies from those awful gays.
Really, it’s simple, once you get the … uh … hang of it.
Of course, you will continue to need police in your crappers back there. Who knows when toilet paper thieves or other monsters will descend on your men’s rooms?
But your weenies will be safe, I promise you, once you have had the Arizona Training.
Dreggas
yes but are the sheep there safe from them? (sorry had to)
Tsulagi
I hear you TZ, and I am completely behind Senator Craig. No, not just so I can see where his hands are and whether he’s widestancing. There is that, but really I think he’s made of the right stuff for his party. The everyman, if you will, in the Party of Bush.
So let me be the first making the plea: SENATOR WIDESTANCE FOR PREZ! Dear God, hear me this one time, let WideStance toss his tapping loafers into the race. If you make it happen, I swear I just might go to church.
Davebo
I’m sorry Dingo, but seriously.
If you ask a guy to perform sex on or with you, you’re at the minimum bisexual.
You may not admit to it (read damned near every man who’s ever molested a boy) but that’s the way it is.
There are indeed limitations to the time honored phrase “the worst BJ I ever got was great”.
Mike
Which seems to imply that you don’t mind your senator having sex in public restrooms with a person who is his wife So, yeah, you’re kind of crazy.
myiq2xu
Once again, the Queen of Obtuseness ignores the point that it’s not the come-ons or the come-hither looks, its the cum.
It was nice of you, however, to invite all the men in Minnesota to show you their weenies. Have fun!
Xenos
Dingo does have a point. It was before my time, but I think the Kinsey Report was especially shocking on the subject of heterosexual men who went the tearoom or the movie theater for quick and easy blowjobs. This was not because these men were gay or even bi, but because that was the only reliable way to get a blowjob.
aliceandbob
You are kidding, right? At most, airport security would have been called to escort his horny ass out of there. No criminal charges would be filed unless the guy either kicked up a fuss or physically assaulted the woman.
Here are a few pointers for the ovarially challenged.
1. Women don’t have cops in the can to protect them from creepy guys.
2. There is no law against heterosexual propositioning.
3. If the offended woman wanted to get the guy arrested, there would have to be a hell of a lot more than a little toe-tap to make it stick.
Moral of the story: If Larry had been playing footsie in the women’s room (btw, not a great way to pick up chicks), the GOP would be winking and nudging/wailing about Dems demonizing wacky hijinks.
Bonus moral for pansy handwringers: If the scary gay man asks you if you wanna go all the way tonight tonight, you are allowed to say no, thanks.
myiq2xu
Arizona – Where the men are men and the sheep are scared.
Davebo
Xenos,
You’re using a pretty broad definition of heterosexual there.
myiq2xu
“If you’ve ever had another man’s testicles slapping against your chin, you’re probably not fully committed to the heterosexual lifestyle.” – J.C. Christian, Patriot.
Punchy
There just has to be a better way. I’m guessing with a record number of girls going to college, things’ll turn around nicely and this will cease to be a prob.
ThymeZone
That’s an interesting story, but Craig wasn’t charged with soliciting, one, and wasn’t having any sex. He tapped his foot as near as I can ascertain.
Solicitation is generally about prostitution .. or are resting on the idea that “man on man action” is itself a crime and therefore the suggestion of it is a crime?
In other words, arrested for being gay?
If a man signals a woman that he is interested in sex, can she have him arrested for making the signal? Is the assumption that if she acquiesced, they’d have the sex right there where they are, such as in a restaurant or in a Borders Bookstore? Is it sex we are worried about here, or gayness? Is it exhibitionism, public nudity, or public lewd behavior? Since, you know, Craig wasn’t doing any of those things to my knowledge?
These are rhetorical questions. I am pretty sure anyone who is not a damned fool or a Minnesotan with a delicate, fragile (Lutheran) weenie can understand what is going on here.
Is this all about Protecting the Tildren, do you think? From teh gay, I mean? In the same spirit as, say, making sure our scoutmasters are not gay?
Suppose that we wanted to impose a strict no-sex-in-the-crapper law. How would we enforce it by way of a sting? You can’t have police dropping their drawers to catch the bad guy, so …. don’t you have to enlarge the net to include the so-called “signal” such as tapping a foot?
What if the typical arrangement were to tap the foot and then go out to the car, would that be okay? Would the ballslap in the car be allowable? Two adults in the privacy of the automobile? Can they get away with this?
My point is that once you open the door to the Sex Police idea, you are …. screwed, to coin a phrase. Where does this shit stop? Who is it protecting, and from what?
Finally, in conclusion, and last, let me say, do we think that Senators in general should surrender their seats for having plead guilty to disorderly conduct charges? Is that a new rule? Or do we need a new law called Disorderly Gay Conduct to remove the ambiguity here? If you get my meaning.
That way the breathless cries of “he was asking for gay sex!” would sound so much more convincing and compelling.
While at the same time, of course, insisting that the man wasn’t arrested for being gay.
Or isn’t being railroaded out of a Senate seat for being gay, which is the real meat and potatoes here. Because he is.
Aw, he’s a Republican, he’s a faggot, so fuck him. I think that pretty well sums up the trend of thought, doesn’t it? He’s gettin what he deserves, the asshole. The cocksucker!
The bottom line is that what is happening to Craig can happen to anyone in this country. You make a gesture taken to be a suggestion of gay sex, and you can (a) go to jail and (b) lose your job.
Dreggas
This was back in the day when you either had a Mistress (in the cases where the guy was a het) or you wanted a quickie with anonymity.
jenniebee
I really don’t understand why so many here insist on characterizing this as a sting to target gay men who are, at most, flirting. Craig wasn’t caught making a pass at a cop, he was caught in the preliminaries of having sex in the bathroom. It’s not like it was early in the preliminaries, either, or was it not clear what Craig was reaching under the stall to get hold of?
Does nobody realize the flip side of this? It’s damned hard to argue that whatever sex acts people engage in between consenting adults in the privacy of their own home are nobody else’s business while simultaneously arguing that those acts ought also be protected outside that privacy as well, however much they might intrude on public notice.
ThymeZone
For something different, an interesting and intelligent discussion of the story.
The Sex Police. Gotta love ’em. Well, figuratively speaking only.
Xenos
Maybe it is a dated concept of heterosexuality here. But the may well be a subset of tea-room devotees who are drawn more to the cruisiness rather than gayness. If you want, quick, anonymous, public sex, you are not going to find many women going for it, except for the most desperate and pathetic hookers.
Blowjobs are no longer a shocking bit of exotic behaviour, the sort of thing a fella would not dare to ask of his girlfriend, and maybe this was more a matter of Kinsey doing a weak job in understanding some pretty hushed-up aspects of sexual behaviour.
Andrew J. Lazarus
While I was at Berkeley, at least two men’s restrooms were closed because they had become widely known as places for gay sex hookups. I myself witnessed someone worshiping Priapus on his knees in one of these before it was closed, and I wasn’t amused. The fact that such behavior results in only a minuscule number of arrests in LA County does not interest me or seem very salient: arrests in these cases almost always require a sting operation and I can believe LA County has more pressing matters. Obviously the UC Berkeley police thought it was simpler or wiser simply to close some bathrooms that were comparatively isolated (one in Doe and one in Tolman, for any Golden Bears keeping score.)
I would like to point out, though, that given the relatively small number of men who like gay bathroom sex, it would be important to establish preferred loci like a particular restroom in an airport and to let others know where to go.
I’m sorry Sen. Craig just couldn’t go to a Capitol Hill gay bar, but soon he’ll be even sorrier.
Xenos
In support of TZ’s point, I would add that if the policy goal was to eliminate a problem cruisy bathroom, it would be a hell of a lot easier to post some signs warning people of the sting operation, or to hire a bathroom attendant who would send the thrill seekers out. Cheaper than paying the cops to do 41 or more sting operations with our tax dollars.
ThymeZone
Wow! Reaching under a stall is a preliminary to having sex?
Excuse me, I just laughed so hard I busted a gut.
I have said it before, if you hang around here long enough, you will see and hear everything.
Un-gayfucking-believable. Reaching under a stall, a preliminary to having sex. Can you people even hear the nonsensical crap you are saying here?
Reaching under a stall, a preliminary to having sex.
Spare no expense in protecting the precious Weenies of Minnesota, my friends. I say those crapper cops should be armed with at least armor-piercing bullets.
Here in Arizona, we sit mostly unprotected in our crapper stalls, totally vulnerable to the monsters who might reach, uninvited, into our stalls. But we are real men and we depart the crappers with our weenies unsullied.
Andrew J. Lazarus
Addendum because of posting overlap: the problem is not a request to hookup. The problem is a request to hookup right there in public in the stalls. Public sex is a crime. I suspect TZ knows perfectly well that was the intended sequel to the toe-tapping. I’m not sure whether he is trying to implant reasonable doubt, as if we were a criminal jury, or is merely trolling.
Josh Marshall pointed out that Craig couldn’t defend himself from the flimsiness of the charge because it would have revived the (accurate) rumors about his sexual orientation and in Idaho that would be politically inconvenient. This is a story about an Idaho non-straight man who had to live his sex life furtively. This is not, to my mind, the beginning of the Sex in Public Liberation Movement.
Xenos
If we are to share our own brushes with this subculture, I once went to the wrong men’s room during a gay-pride party at Concordia University (Seventh floor, behind the elevators). A couple go-go dancers in their banana hammocks took a break and headed to this same bathroom, followed by a number of their fans. I had to step over one couple to make my escape.
That was called love, for the workers in thong, probably still is for those of them left.
myiq2xu
Thyme, you’re a broken record with nothing on it. You ignore questions and intentionally misconstue other people’s arguments and think you are winning. that only works in Wingnuttia, not here in Left Blogistan.
From your emotional attachment and apparent personal knowledge on the subject, it is obvious that you are gay and have previously been arrested for lewd conduct on one or more occasions.
I hope you come to terms with your sexuality and accept it. There is nothing wrong with being gay. But you cannot use your homosexuality to defend having sex in public restrooms.
Best wishes.
jenniebee
It’s really cute that you can make a statement like this in the same post in which you imply that your adversaries are arguing out of homophobic hysteria. “Breathless,” indeed.
I usually like what you have to say, but you’ve got a serious kneejerk going here, and it’s making you irrational. The Tearoom Trade link that Dreggas supplied is fully in keeping with what Dad described as going on in the parks he patrolled. Keeping it from turning into a situation where tourists walked in on sex shows was part of the job.
(Incidentally, checking parked cars for snogging teens was also part of the job, and being interrupted in a makeout session by one of my dad’s employees tapping at the car window was one of the more embarrassing moments of my dating career. Being caught with your top off and having your parents called is bad enough; having your parents radioed is the absolute pits.)
This isn’t about cracking down on teh gayz for foisting their lascivious looks and lavish Italian hand-gestures on pure, upstanding straight men. This is about keeping things in a state where the goings-on that are going to go on do not intrude on public notice, all so that people like TZ can insist so stridently that he’s never seen them, so such things do not happen.
Gus
TZ, I mainly agree with you, but as a Minnesotan I gotta say you’re a prick.
The Other Steve
I don’t consider seeing someone’s peepee in the lockeroom at high school gym class a “same sex encounter”, but I’m quite certain to get a “signifigant percentage” it would have to have been counted as such.
fecapult
Dude, if I’m transferring flights in the middle in Minneapolis and need to freshen up really quickly, I want to go into a public bathroom with the reasonable expectation that it will be clean, safe, and relatively normal. Nobody giving handjobs, nobody crapping in the sink. Hopefully little kids aren’t having toilet paper wars. There’s a thousand activities that you’re not supposed to engage in in public or in a public restroom. This is the one of a thousand that Craig got busted for.
That Craig somehow lacked the mens rea to understand what he was doing was deviant and wrong is ridiculous. I think we can accept that some of us out here have engaged in some sex in public before. If chanced upon by a police officer, I bet almost every one of us would know to expect a ticket for the infraction. The fact that it’s wrong is part of what makes it fun.
Having considered this – can we accept that Craig would understand that having sex in a public men’s room would be a deviant or wrong activity, whether gay or straight? Can we accept that the foot rubbing is an accepted signal or code for gay men who encounter each other randomly in the bathroom? Can we consider the fact that the Minneapolis airport is by its very nature a transitory location, and the likelihood of someone coming to the bathroom specifically to pick up another gay man (as it seems it was a hangout of some type), by the nature of a traveller’s impermanence in that area, that any intended or attempted sex would most likely take place in said bathroom?
I think it’s reasonable – And it’s also reasonable that Minnesotans don’t want a travellers first mental image of their state to be people having sex in an airport bathroom. Ergo, it’s reasonable that when Craig acted in this manner, he was arrested for attempted solicitation.
ThymeZone
In public? If I am in a stall and taking the crap of the century, I am in public? What I do is public? My crap is public? WTF are you talking about? If a closed door isn’t the opposite of “public” then what the hell is it?
I am really not a prick except when a Minnesotan is around.
And honestly, the use of the word here is uncalled for.
Seriously, thought, the Minnesota thing is a theatrical device to illustrate just how utterly stupid and asinine this argument really is. And of course to piss of the always concern(ed) and annoying Other Steve.
If it weren’t for the midwest, would we really need the Sex Police at all, though? Really? I mean, come on. In Arizona we don’t run away and call the cops when a guy asks for sex in the men’s room. We just send him back to Minnesota with a warning.
Sorry, had to. You know I had to.
Justin
TZ, will you please just SHUT UP!
ThymeZone
Uh, no. When we descend to the point where we need cops to arrest people for rubbing a foot, then we are basically in Idaho … I mean, Hell. That’s just fucking absurd.
John Cole
Pictures or it didn’t happen.
Punchy
Read: here’s a link that agrees with me, so it’s both interesting and intelligent!
ThymeZone
Who the fuck are you to talk to me like that?
ThymeZone
If you don’t agree, why don’t you put up an actual argument against it?
myiq2xu
Go ahead Thyme, keep having gay sex in bathroom stalls. But don’t bitch when you get arrested again.
Jeebus!
myiq2xu
I second the motion!
ThymeZone
Oh yeah? Is the problem worse in Minnesota for some reason?
Why would that be?
Where’s the website that has all the tragic stories of people stumbling into the mens room at MSP and getting cockslapped? Seriously, is it something in the water there?
myiq2xu
Your intellectual superior, for one.
ThymeZone
this, Mister IQ thing, is all you got … a gay lame against me?
Holy shit, you caved faster than Larry Craig.
Punchy
I’m curious–what the hell gives you such a smug and pompous attitude that allows you to claim they don’t run stings in AZ? What makes you think your state is immune to guys drilling for oil in a Fo’nix IHOP restroom?
All you do is rip Minny and the Midwest, as if there’s no vice (and vice cops) in AZ. To that I say bullshit.
ThymeZone
OMG, you are really out of gas, aren’t you?
Gus
Yeah, I know it’s a theatrical device. I was actually (mostly) kidding, because I called you an asshole once and you thanked me. Thought you’d take it as a compliment :)
maf54
Does Papa John’s deliver to the MSP airport bathrooms?
myiq2xu
Why is it lame? Who’s homophobic now?
Like I said, there’s nothing wrong with being gay. Accept who you are. But quit having gay sex in men’s rooms. Other people don’t want to watch you sucking cock.
Punchy
Uh…John? Pretty sure that counts as underage prOn, if she’s undie 18. That said, a few legal boobie pics on your blog every once and awhile isn’t really a bad thing…
ThymeZone
We are real men here, as I said. If we get propositioned in the mens room, we give a yea or nay and move on.
Sooner or later, the Minnesotan tires of that and goes back home.
jaime
So that’s what this is about? You think people should be able to have sex in public bathroom stalls? That society finds that objectionable is “The Man” coming down on you?
ThymeZone
Wow, I haven’t seen a complete collapse of a poster like this in a long time.
Do you have blood sugar problems?
myiq2xu
Fixed
Andrew J. Lazarus
Google to the rescue. I believe ThymeZone’s error is the logical fallacy known as the Argument from Personal Incredulity. There’s also Josh Marshall’s reader who wrote in
ThymeZone
What I think is in the first sentence of my first post to this thread. Its hasn’t changed.
ThymeZone
So that’s your game plan now? I’m gay?
Okay. Noted.
myiq2xu
Thyme,
In the law there is a thing called an “adoptive admission.” That’s when someone fails to deny something said by someone else under circumstances when a normal person would.
At least you’re ahead of Larrry Craig. You’re not denying your true sexuality. You just need to accept it now.
ThymeZone
Two days, asking for anything that looks like facts to support the idea that gay sex in public restrooms, or exhibitionist activities, is a serious problem, that there is injury, and to whom, and where …. and nothing.
I myself quoted a stat that I took the time to look up. I think I saw one from Steve’s Weenie about 41 foot-tap arrests. My impression was that that was over some period of time, like 90 days, which would break down to one foot tap every other day. Wow, it’s a wonder that MSP hasn’t been overrun with queers.
Like I said, this is a witch hunt, and has been from the get go. I am not any more worried about the flood of gay sex than I am about whether Al Qaeda is going to blow me up.
But please, prove me wrong. Take your time.
John Cole
My bad. I just saw “caught with your top off” while skimming the comments and reacted.
ThymeZone
Ya really think this line of patter is a winner for you?
Seriously?
Zifnab
Wow, I didn’t realize it had turned into that type of message board.
ThymeZone
It’s a safe bet that the MSP Airport Authority will be shutting us down at any moment.
I gotta run out to the car and get my SuperWeenie Protector.
Leader Desslok
I will never rescind my right to watch teen pr0n in public bathroom stalls.
Ron Paul, bitches!
ThymeZone
Well, I’d love to stick around and have the post-thread cake and ice cream with you guys but I have an airport to de-fag. My night job is airport sex cop, so …. later.
myiq2xu
I’m not the one confused about my sexuality.
Face
Let’s summarize TZ:
Show me evidence! When shown that it’s happening in the airport, suddenly that’s not enough. Over too long a span of time. shorter: I’ll ignore and belittle it b/c it hurts my argument
Foot tapping is not a gay thing! When shown that it is, he denies that’s a crime. Ya know, handing money to a woman isn’t a crime either, but if she’s on the street corner, you’re in a car….you’ll be arrested. context. duh.
This only happens in to the sallies in MN! No proof, none, that this is true. Lots of bitching about MN, though.
Finally, the “that’s all you got?”, “you suck at arguing”, “I’m clearly right and you’re not”. Sad, actually. Keep fighting the good fight. It makes me smile.
Zifnab
In high school, I got a knock on my window while idling my car in the back of a movie theater. Apparently, the cop who pulled up next to me was under the impression me and my girlfriend were disturbing the peace. There was no gay sex involved.
I’m sorry, TZ, but these laws aren’t always about “teh ghey!” sometimes they’re just about “teh publick nekkidness”.
Craig got busted for solicitation, same as if he rolled down his window in a red light districted and offered to give an undercover cop a mustache ride. Should it be illegal? I don’t know. But since Larry Craig was one of the guys making it illegal in the first place, arguing that he shouldn’t be punished is rather disengenious.
He helped make these laws. Cops are required to enforce them. If you don’t like the laws, do what you can to get people like Larry Craig out of office and get the laws repelled. Don’t bitch about a cop doing his job, even if he’s enforcing a law you don’t particularly like.
myiq2xu
Well, have fun! And forget what John said about the pictures, we don’t need ’em.
myiq2xu
Jeez, that was easy. I thought you guys said he would never stop arguing.
ThymeZone
Whoops, missed that one. Your problem is that you aren’t pretty like I am.
A truly pretty man like myself learns to handle those unwanted gay advances. We are inherently stronger, as befits our gorgeous appearance, and just deal.
Weaker, uglier men become afraid in the restroom and call for the Sex Police to protect them. It’s a fact, you can look it up.
Andrew J. Lazarus
I believe “disturbing the peace” is also what George W’s nephew copped to after being caught in flagrante delicto in his (or was it her?) SUV, in a mall parking lot.
Future GOP material, fer sure.
ThymeZone, either stand up for the right to screw in airport restrooms or shut up. Picking apart the evidence presented to you (e.g., OK, but it was only 41—except do we know just how many of those hours someone was in the room creating the sting??) is a waste. Such crankiness makes me suspect you haven’t got any recently, whatever it is you like.
ThymeZone
Sure. And since Craig wasn’t nekkid, we can rest easy knowing that he was rightfully arrested for probably about to get nekkid.
Bend over and kiss your liberties goodbye, pal, you are sucking to a law that Larry Craig himself would vote for.
You deserve a Senate made up of 100 Larry Craigs.
myiq2xu
Okay, I’ll accept that. I’m ugly and you’re gay.
ThymeZone
Over the 120-day period cited by Steve?
Let’s give him two hours a day for fun. That’s 240 hours and 41 kills. In a very busy hub airport, what would that be? One out of a thousand people is foot tapping?
Is that the going rate at American airports? Man. Whew!
You know I used to travel six days a week, Sunday-Friday, nothing but airplanes and airports every damn day. Peeing up a storm from coast to coast. For years I did this. I also have a Commercial Pilot’s License and have spent a little more time than the average bear in airports in general. Never seen a foot tap. Never seen a sex act. Never heard a sex act. Been propositioned, said no, no injury.
Where is this big fucking problem? Where is the justification for a rigged setup aimed at harassing gays?
SHOW ME THE FUCKING MONEY.
ThymeZone
Why don’t you make me shut up?
Dreggas
Fact 1: The senator was, under definition in this case soliciting. The tape shows as much and he knew damn well what he was doing.
Fact 2: These laws and types of stings are targeting men, they are targeting gay men and, as pointed out in the article on the Tearoom Trade, these stings were setup to do just what they are doing, target gay men, they also catch people making out in cars etc. in this case it was a restroom.
Fact 3: A public restroom, stall door or not, is a public restroom.
Fact 4: This was just one incident among 41 others at a location known for “cruising” as such it was a valid sting target just as harbor boulevard is down here in the OC for prostitution.
Fact 5: The record shows that the police had received complaints. These complaints led to investigations. The investigations led to arrests.
Fact 6: No one is truly injured in this situation and most likely the acts go unseen since stall doors are closed. It’s not always the case and sometimes people are seen thus investigations are initiated etc.
Fact 7: The senator needs to come to terms with his sexuality and WHO he is and realize the practice of going to a “tea room” is no longer necessary.
Fact 8: These laws do suck in many ways, however they’re rarely enforced because most people get it on behind closed doors in non-public places.
Jeez.
ThymeZone
Well, you got the first one right. If the second one makes you feel better about yourself, you can believe that too.
ThymeZone
Correct, and that makes all the rest of this basically irrelevant. Craig was arrested for being gay and injuring nobody. He plead guilty, paid a fine and got a suspended (I forget the exact word) jail sentence.
Now, his worthless GOP friends want his scalp, and the mob liberals here, such as The Other Weenie, want to stand up and cheer for the mighty Sex Police of the MSP Airport Authority.
You figure it out. See my first post. It’s a witch hunt.
myiq2xu
I’ve heard that the hardest part about “coming out” is accepting your sexual orientation. I’m sure everyone here supports you in your struggle. It must be difficult being gay in a society where many people hate you just because of who you are.
I hope you find peace.
Rome Again
I have to say, I’m a little perplexed here. Why are so many people willing to throw away the freedom to be sexual? Rightwingers want to take that away from us, and it seems many here are willing to allow them to.
By the way, as a musical person, I have a tendency to musically tap my foot when I’m bored. Can I be arrested for soliciting sex because I was bored and thinking of a rhythmic beat in the restroom?
Zifnab
They’re already gone. The question is, does a sitting US Senator get bitch-slapped by the same laws that feel I have to be told twice? Apparently, they do. Craig didn’t just flash his Senate bag and score IOKIYAR immunity. When we see Congresscritters getting picked up on bullshit charges, we’re allowed to cheer. They made the bullshit laws, now they get to tell us how fair they think said laws are via personal experience.
Larry Craig is one of 545 individuals who could make foot tapping in the restroom perfectly legal if they wanted to fight for said legislation.
If he wanted to be a one-man justice machine, he could have fought the arrest and taken the charge to court. He could have turned around and sued the police department for harassment. He could have worked with the ACLU to have the law overturned in court. Then he could have walked into the Senate chambers holding the Larry Craig “Freedom to Foot Tap Act of 2007”. He did none of those things, TZ. Larry Craig had more power than any of us to fight these charges, but he was more worried about looking gay in the eyes of his constituents than he was worried about living in a free society. So he got exactly, precisely, 100% of everything he deserved.
If Larry Craig had protested and decried his horrible treatment and the horrible law, I’d be right behind him (figuratively speaking). But he’s not. He’s demanding to be treated like a special case, because he’s a Republican Senator and shouldn’t be held to the laws that govern the huddled masses. So fuck him (also figuratively).
myiq2xu
That’s why “vice” crimes are ofter called “victimless” crimes.
ThymeZone
Yes, I know, I am no fan of the guy whatever. Politically or any other way.
myiq2xu
It’s not the freedom to be sexual, it’s the where they’re being sexual.
No, because you’re a girl! :roll:
Dreggas
Because there are those on the other side that believe in the nanny state as well. But here, at least for me and some others, that’s not the case. There is a grim and near morbid satisfaction in seeing Craig hoisted by his own petard. He railed against and demonized gays, here he is busted by laws used to target men who are cruising for sex with men. It’s the irony that most of us are laughing at.
Badtux
For those who say that nobody was harmed, if I gotta take a dump and there’s a couple of gay tearoom queens taking up both stalls giving each other blowjobs under the partition, I sure the heck am at least discomforted. Public restroom stalls are for dumping or tinkling, period. Not for… whatever.
As for a guy who went into the women’s room and started asking women for sex, yep, he’d get arrested for disorderly conduct too. Seen it happen, yessiree.
In short, it is the misuse of public property, not the Senator’s gay-ness, that is the issue here and for which the Senator pled guilty and paid a fine. If the Senator wants to pretend he’s not gay, we have all the right in the world to point and laugh just as much as if Obama were pretending he’s not black or Hillary were pretending she’s not a woman. The boy is gayer than the gay mayor of gaytown, and denying it is as silly and laugh-worthy as if the Rev. Al Sharpton were suddenly to claim that he is not in fact black, he is an Asian-American. People would laugh. And are laughing.
– Badtux the Restroom Penguin
Rome Again
Oh, women aren’t soliciting other women? Are you sure? Perhaps women don’t complain about it so much. Culture says women having sex together is desireable, where two men having sex are not so.
I am putting out a caveat right now, I am a woman who has had experiences with other women in my past (and I am not afraid to admit to, never have been), and I know a lot about the culture.
Millions of women in numerous restrooms and you’re sure that it’s never happened? Are you sure you want to make that assumption?
I think you are premature (and perhaps even sexist) to assume that women are exempt.
Zifnab
That’s why we laugh at him. That’s why we don’t feel bad that he got caught. He has the keys to his own prison, and he won’t use them because of his perverse ideological bent.
Kinda like watching a 78-year-old-man apologizing for getting shot in the face by Dick Cheney. How do you feel bad for guys like this?
Dreggas
And without a victim there should be no crime so long as no real danger is presented to bystanders.
Zifnab
Are you suggesting what I think you’re suggesting? Tap once for yes and twice for no.
Dreggas
I for one hope it has and only lament the fact that I was unable to witness it.
myiq2xu
If Larry Craig were merely a closeted gay who was involuntarily outed, I would defend his right to keep his sexual orientation private. But he’s more than that.
He’s a GOP Senator that supports discrimination against gays and lesbians, while seeking and/or engaging in gay sex in public places.
He’s a hypocrite who deserves what he’s getting. He made his bed, let him lay in it. But it’s his own people that have ostracized him, not us.
Having sex in public places is wrong, and deserves to be criminalized. But it is not a serious offense, so it should be and is, treated as a misdmeanor.
It should be up to the voters of Idaho whether he should be reelected or not, and is none of the business of other Senators. I vote in California, but even if I lived in Idaho I wouldn’t vote for him, but that has nothing to do with whether he is gay or not.
ThymeZone
THE best line of the day, bar none.
Laughing my ass off.
ThymeZone
But only when you do it :)
Dreggas
myiq2xu,
I agree, don’t necessarily agree that having sex in public places is a wrong per se, then again to me it’s all about location, location, location. If you read about the tearoom thing it was obvious that they were doing this in restrooms AWAY from the general public because they did have respect for other people.
Otherwise I agree completely and this jackass is getting just what he deserved, Karma is a bitch.
myiq2xu
Sarcasm is only one of the many services I offer. I was making a jest.
To quote John Cole: “Pictures or it didn’t happen.”
Gilmore
I can’t believe the shellacking ThymeZone is taking here. His argument apparently seems to be:
– Craig made a signal indicating he might be interested in sex
– Craig was arrested
– This is bullshit.
And you people DON’T think that’s bullshit? He didn’t have sex in public. He didn’t pay anyone for sex or indicate he would do so. If I walk up to you on the street and say “hey want some sex?”, is that a crime? Should it be?
Craig got the railroad, just like zillions of closeted (or just thrill-seeking) gay guys get all the time. The fact that he’s also a hypocrite in a position of power he abuses to oppress people with the same urges as him, is not relevant to the fact that his arrest was unjust.
myiq2xu
Is that what Elaine Benis meant by “Can you spare a square?”
Is that the code?
Dreggas
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
ThymeZone
Ahem.
Rome Again
I strongly disagree with this statement. Granted, I don’t believe in banging on city streets where children could be watching, but there is nothing like enjoying an outdoor fling to spice up a sex life.
Animals do it, we are mammals, remember? Back when cavemen roamed the earth, all sex was outdoors.
I cannot agree with this, sorry.
Dreggas
Rome Again,
Same here which is why I said location, location, location.
Rome Again
Funny, I used to have pictures. I don’t have them anymore. Do you think I would own up to such if it never happened? Think about the ramifications of what I’m saying. Most women wouldn’t be caught dead admitting such. I flaunt it. Just ask TZ, he knows.
Xenos
You get cops posing as prostitutes in order to bust johns, but I have never heard of cops posing as swingers in order to bust hetero types who want to have sex outside. Maybe I am just sheltered…
If two people are busted in flagrante delicto, sure… but a female hanging around in a park, waiting to for some a guy to suggest a fling behind a tree, is not even imaginable.
I hate to say TZ is right, because his arguments demonstrate that he has run out of lithium, but the sting operations are pure entrapment. As I said before, lost in the TZ macho Arizona contretemps, if you really want is to stop cruising in a bathroom, the least efficient way to stop it is to run a sting operation. Put a uniform cop on patrol in the area, put a sign on the door to the bathroom that the uniformed cop they just saw will bust anyone he catches having sex, and you have stopped the problem.
Hell, even post on Craigslist and Squirt and whatever, that you are the Fuzz, and you are going to bust anyone they catch in that bathroom, and tell the cruisers to get a hotel room like normal grownups, and you have solved the problem for the most part.
Rome Again
Thank you Dreggas. I’m so sick of having people want to completely take away the freedoms that were natural only a few thousand years ago and replace them with “civility”.
Civility is a fucked-up concept. I’ve never been one to follow conventional wisdom though. I believe in tapping into our animal nature.
Dreggas
They do. They bust private swinger parties that ask for any form of monetary compensation by the person putting on the party. Cops will also set stakeouts on areas known for cruising and outdoor sex.
myiq2xu
Okay, I looked it up, and Craig was NOT charged with soliciting. He was charged with violating Criminal Codes section 609.746(c):
He pled guilty to a lesser charge of disorderly conduct, which does not necessarily involve sex.
IOW: He was busted for peeping through the door crack, not for toe tapping or finger waving.
Dreggas
given my lifestyle and orientation it has taken me way too long to undo societal programming that resulted in me being ashamed or feeling guilty about who and what I am. It’s not civility it’s shame and fear and it goes all the way back to the whole fig leaf and “adam and eve”. This goes for nudity and such as well. Suddenly being human and having a body was dirty and it’s bullshit.
myiq2xu
I agree, but there’s a difference between “outdoor” and “public.” A restroom stall at the airport during the middle of the day is not the place.
Rome Again
I agree, and I normally call it “conventional wisdom” which I scowl at every chance I get, but, you are correct, it is religion and all teh guilt that went with it. Hence, I don’t believe in organized religion either.
Andrew
Tap tap…
That’s “yes yes,” right?
Rome Again
Well, it’s awfully hard to find other gay individuals without going into such restrooms unless they go to a gay bar. I understand that congressmen are concerned about being caught in such places.
This is not to say I condone such behavior, but dammit, it’s just sex, what is the big deal? Granted, they should meet up and go get a room or go find an unoocupied forest or some other such place to do such things since they are meeting in a public place with lots of people around, but I have no qualms about a gay man meeting other gay men in restrooms.
Dreggas
See that’s the problem. It’s sex, it’s dirty, it should be done behind closed doors where no one can see with the shades drawn and lights off.
myiq2xu
I have no problem with sex, gay, straight or self-abuse. I think prostitution should be legalized and the cops have no business bothering gay bars or swingers clubs.
I really don’t care if gay men wnat to hang out in public restrooms to meet each other either. I just don’t want them to “do it in the street and scare the horses,” as Queen Victoria is alleged to have said.
Actually, any guy who could scare a horse while having sex should be arrested for assault with a friendly weapon, cuz he’s packing heat.
myiq2xu
C’mon Dreggas, you of all people should know that sex is only dirty if you do it right.
Dreggas
I was using their words. Of course I know that sex is only dirty if you do it right and the dirtier the better. Sheesh given my lifestyle it’d have to be that way. I do blame losing my virginity at 14 and having 4 years to figure out that the vanilla crap was for the birds.
Dreggas
See I’d have no issue with the stall deal so long as no “action” was showing. I have to admit in some ways the thrill of it being somewhat open would be rather erotic. I do believe however that it should be done in the same stall, not seperate stalls, that way if I need to take a dump I can.
Dreggas
oh and if done in a stall it should be as quiet as possible, no noises and stuff, after all there’s enough grunting in the regular stalls.
myiq2xu
Fuck, just set aside special places. Men’s room, Ladies’ room, Fucker’s room.
Works for me.
Dreggas
Now the sign for that room would be freaking funny. Probably look just as wrong as the one for baby changing stations in mens rooms.
Pb
Instead of further criminalizing public sex, maybe the NSA could just raise some money for the government by setting up their own public porn website instead…
Dreggas
SatelliteSex.com – Giving you a birds eye view that would make superman jealous.
Xenos
Hey, I use the baby changing station in men’s room all the time…
myiq2xu
Actually they already have, sort of.
The number one purveyor of child pornography is Uncle Sam. But if you buy any, the cops deliver it.
No bullshit.
Gilmore
Hey, I use the baby changing station in men’s room all the time…
You fucking pervert. People CHANGE BABIES on that thing.
Punchy
Yup.
Rome Again
Well, I don’t know about you, but with me, noises are not controllable. ;)
I’m not just talking about vocalizations either, sometimes certain actions create their own noises. ::blush::
Dreggas
heh I am vocal and I like it vocal. In fact the more swearing, dirty talk, and noises the better.
Rome Again
Self-abuse? So you consider masturbation to be abusive of one’s own body? Why exactly?
Dreggas
I’m thinking he means BDSM.
myiq2xu
Silence is golden. Duct tape is silver. :evil:
Rome Again
How would you feel about such in a public restroom though?
Rome Again
You’re no fun! ;)
myiq2xu
When I was growing up my church taught me that “onanism” was a sin.
As I grew older I decided that (to paraphrase Jerry Lee Lewis) “If I’m going to hell, I’m going there playing my organ.”
myiq2xu
Do not worry guapa, it will only seem kinky the first 2-3 times. :twisted:
Rome Again
Perhaps, but I took it differently. Maybe he will clarify.
Rome Again
I don’t trust churches to define anything, especially what is considered abusive.
Rome Again
I wasn’t asking for a date, you know.
myiq2xu
I wasn’t offering one either.
Kynn
So, I totally agree with ThymeZone, but maybe that’s just because I’m in Arizona too.
Rome Again
No? Well, using an auxiliary verb sure made it seem so:
Please excuse me if I got the wrong impression! ;)
Blue Shark
ThymeZone;
…You conveniently leave out the part about Senator Craig peeking into the adjacent stall for 2 full minutes.
…This is not a witch hunt. This is the witch tying himself to the stake and lighting the match.
…Its the hypocrisy that is so odious.
Punchy
New blogname here: Balloon-Juices.
jake
Change them into what? Something quieter one hopes.
Evilbeard
Hey myiq2xu, do you happen to live in Sacramento? Your mention of the zoo and kids park made me think you have to be talking about Sacramento.
Xenos
I was going to say that I strap little girls down and take off their clothes, but that whole line of discussion, while true, was beginning to sound much too creepy.
rachel
If a woman went into a men’s restroom in Minnesota and solicited for sex there, she’d be liable to be treated the same as Senator Craig, right?
ThymeZone
Wow. Those Twin City weenies are in greater danger than I ever imagined.
The very idea that people might be peeking into our stalls!
I think we need a DOTSA … Defense of Taking a Shit Act.
ThymeZone
Once we have the DOTSA in place, we can rest assured that these stall peepers will be brought to justice.
The sacred act of defecation will no longer be defiled by teh gays. And if you see a stall peeper, just call out “Get thee back Satan you cocksucker!!!”
Rome Again
I wonder what the sting protocol is for such. Does the officer see that someone is peeking in and automatically push a stopwatch to time exactly how long that person peeked in? Two full minutes? Are you sure?
ThymeZone
Please send for my new product, “Stall-Peeper Be Gone Strips” that easily cover the space between your stall door and the stall itself, thereby eliminating the peeing of savage gay people determined to see your weenie.
Just $9.95 plus S&H.
{ add to cart }
The perfect gift for your man who isn’t lucky enough to live in Minneapolis where they have police to watch over your peepee.
ThymeZone
Please call 1-800-MYPEEPEE and schedule our personal bodyguard service to accompany you into the stall at airports. Our PeePee Protectors are fully trained and will insure that no Gay Peepers are Peeping your Peepee in a public restroom stall.
Don’t take the chance that one of these vicious peepee peepers will ruin your nice quiet elimination.
Call today and be safe, not sorry.
Your private sex police, available 24 hours a day.
myiq2xu
Close, but no cigar. I was referring to Fresno.
myiq2xu
Looks like a good career for you.
Fruitbat
The most laughable thing in this truly amusing thread is that I know Minneapolis to be one of the most tolerant and accepting metropolitain areas in America when it comes to homosexuals, and sexuality in general.
Here, like elsewhere in this country, antiquated laws exist. And I’m not just talking about laws like transporting a duck across state lines on your head (http://www.dumblaws.com/laws/united-states/minnesota/ see third from the top) which remain unenforced. Some aspects of private sexual behavior is still considered illegal in this state (such as some kinds of consentual BDSM, or just a little lower on the link I provided, oral sex). Of course, it’s sad and unnecessary, and in the case of this mens’ room tapping, sometimes results in arrests.
That’s the saddest/funniest part of all this. I think if you polled Minneapolitains, the majority of them would say they’re not interested in being protected by the police from the interactions of homosexual men.
The second funniest part of all this is watching TZ do his little superior dance, implying that Minnesotans are afraid of homosexual acts. Seriously, TZ, you and I should craft a stage act and hit the road together.
myiq2xu
Did ya like his big finish? He’s now an advocate of toilet stall peepery. Someone’s gonna mace him sooner or later if he keeps it up. He should stick to tea room trade sex with strange men.
RobR
This whole thing sounds like the speed trap of bathroom fuck stings. I mean, the cop hands him a card that says “Police”? I’m speculating, but it sounds like this poor bastard’s job is to sit in the can for a few hours, do the tap dance, hand over the card and scare the poor bastards into leaving, never coming back and telling their buddies that there’s a police presence in the crapper. After a few weeks, they stop coming.
Again, only speculating, but the reason for only 41 arrests in 4 months may well be that they only arrest people who fail to pull up their pants and leave immediately. How much you want to bet that Craig saw the inside of the interrogation room after throwing around phrases like “Don’t you know who I am?” and “I’ll have your BADGE!”
Zifnab
The laws are in place and people are getting busted. Craig supports the law being on the books, he just doesn’t support getting busted and thrown in the same cell as the plebians.
He voided his right to pity when he quietly plead guilty in an attempt to duck the media hype. When Larry Craig leads the million gay man march on Capital Hill for equal treatment of gays in public restrooms, then perhaps you can toss flak for any lack of support.
The fact that he still remains a huge homophobic apologist indicates that he hasn’t even learned his lesson. It’s not that I don’t think the law that busted him was bullshit, its that Craig – having been busted – doesn’t think the law itself was bullshit, just the fact that he got busted.
Buddy
Do you find this argument inconsistent? Small govt= interfering with women’s reproductive rights; peeking into our bedrooms to legislate against morality/or lack thereof; seeking elective office; seeking govt contracts.
And while we are at it- the repub party should expel all the gays, divorcees, pedophiles, etc. Then we will really be clean!
Dreggas
this is why I said one should have the decency to be quieter in a public place. Kinda like a movie theater or library, and to use the line thrown up on the movie screens in this case, silence is golden.
Dreggas
Small gov’t but large police state.
In other words they want all governmental power within the hands of a small few (read dictatorship) and a large police/military force to enforce all the items you mentioned. After all to the military/police are not part of the government.
Andrew J. Lazarus
In case you didn’t bother to read, Thyme Zone, I have indeed personally witnessed restroom sex. I am aware of two restrooms that had to be closed because of the frequency of restroom sex. Frankly, yeah, that rates as a problem. It’s not as big a problem as global warming, but it’s a problem.
There are links here to sites that list good(!) places for people into restroom sex to go. Are you saying that they are fabricated?
How did you warm up for this thread, TZ? A few days of Holocaust Denial?
aliceandbob
Godwin’s Law achieved in 270 posts. Goodnight, everyone.
Rome Again
Well, it’s a good thing I have no plans to ever have sex in a public restroom, because if I were to actually have any arousal, I could not control the noise level (not that I could get easily aroused in such a place, but, given some really strong stimulation, it’s possible I might be able to get past the lack of atmosphere!)