I dunno. Tried for treason? Shot after being tried for treason? Beaten with a stick? Stacked in a pile of naked neocons and tortured for weeks on end with no rights or legal redress?
I can’t decide, but his performance on Hardball a minute ago was the most shameful thing I have ever seen. He blamed everything at Abu Gharaib on a “sick group of kids.” I will link the video once it goes viral.
And by the way, the only officer ever put on trial for Abu Ghraib was acquitted yesterday (more on that here).
The cover-up is complete. The rabble-rousers who let the story out are all punished, those who orchestrated the behavior and set the policies in place and encouraged the behavior are still running the show. We’ll file that under “Thank Goodness the Adults are in Charge” and “Support the Troops!”
Jay B.
A sick group of kids? Well, obviously. The pros don’t take pictures.
But I’m sure the Iraqi people will now understand that it was just a few rotten apples and not, say, the American occupation’s fault.
myiq2xu
Outrage fatigue
Dreggas
I could think of several things that should be done to him that would make gitmo look like the work of a bunch of “sick kids”.
Pb
I thought Jon Soltz did a decent job, but of course Frank Gaffney is a professional liar–to effectively counter that, you’d need someone like Glenn Greenwald:
Oh, and… hey Frank, what about this guy?
He was later promoted, and subsequently was allowed to retire, and then given a medal. Mission Accomplished.
empty
Here are the observations of one of the good guys. It seems pretty clear that the military establishment did not want this guy convicted. The “investigating” officer Maj. Gen. George Fay kept “remembering” things to provide cover for the accused.
I found this especially depressing:
Sirkowski
I was just wondering about that the other day, but concerning his friend Atkinson who suggested Iraq should suffer nuclear genocide and Bush crowned dictator for life.
Jake
Which brings us back to the refugee crisis. The US is essentially saying to the people we liberated from the tyranodemon Saddam:
1. We shat on you.
2. Naturally this makes you angry.
3. We can’t let you into the U.S. if you’re angry.
4. So you’re going to stay put and be shat upon some more.
Slightly OT: You know one extra thing that freaks me the fuck out about “the just some sick kids” nonsense? They were all in before the military started lowering their recruitment standards. Lyndie fucking England who thought prisoner dog piles were “fun,” was allowed into the military under the old standards. If we accept that so many “sick kids” were allowed into the military back then, what the fuck do we have in there now? Move over Hannibal Lechter.
Pb
But only after we gloriously invade Iran, right?
I’m betting the draft copy of Bush’s speech looked like this:
etc., etc.; freaking madlibs for warmongers.
Sirkowski
Before, after, who cares about the long term consequences later, right? It’s not like Bush is managing a war on two fronts like the Keiser…
oh shi-
Jake
PotD
delf
He essentially advocates no moral authority for those terrorists not in uniform and of course not lily-white..I personally think his moral authority is up his heiny.
jnfr
Soltz has some balls. He takes on all the crazies, and at least in every interview I’ve seen he stays completely cool.
whippoorwill
That’s why they call them GI’s =[government issue]. When you wear the olive drab as an enlisted man or woman your sorry ass belongs to the government. And if your in the wrong place at the wrong time it is your duty to serve as cannon fodder for negligent officers and lying politicians.
And Frank Gaffney along with his blood-soaked, draft dodging neocon buddies can go straight to hell without passing go.
incontrolados
One more try —
You came forward, he said, to take part in a work. But you were a witness against yourself. You sat in judgement on your own deeds. You put your own allowances before the judgements of history and you broke with the body of which you were pledged a part and poisoned it in all its enterprise.
Blood Meridian — Cormac McCarthy
The Other Steve
It is God’s will.
I spoke with God last night, and he said “Son, you must support the invasion of Iran, and support the troops, and support George Bush. To do otherwise would make Baby Jesus cry.”
Mike P.
Your outrage is both appropriate and exceptionally well stated, Mr. Cole!
incontrolados
John Cole
You may not like my comments. You may not like me.
But Jeff Goldstein has published my face on his blog in the comments.
I push him, sure. I push his commenters, sure.
But your bud JEFF has just put my face in his comments.
Do you think that’s ok?
Remember I told you about Ace’s comments.
And I am not calling on you to do anything. Seriously. Given the latest headlines.
My only sin is calling him Jeffy.
whatever.
OxyCon
I didn’t see Gaffney, but I did see that “Family values” Repub, who was screwing his secretary pontificating about morals. You know…Gary Bauer.
Pb
incontrolados,
What seems to be the problem here, posts not going through? I know that can happen sometimes, for a number of reasons. The one I ran into the most was having more than two links in a post, but having a new name / email combo can do it too, and probably a few other things besides.
Perry Como
Your first sin was going to Bukkake Logic and trying to engage the cock slapper in rational discourse. Your second sin was using your real identity to do it. Troll asshats like Bukkake Logic with an identity they deserve.
TenguPhule
Correction, the judge and every person involved in the coverup and wrist slaps for the officers (not to mention the originators for the torture memes) are the most shameful things in this pukefest.
Having them dragged out and shot would be too good for them.
In a perfect world, they’d be stripped of their American Citizenship and turned over to the Iraqis to be done with.
But this is crazyworld, where evil gets bookdeals and jobs shilling for the theology of the neo-cons.
TenguPhule
Imperial Stormtroopers.
(And I’m only half-kidding)
TenguPhule
Welcome to Crazyworld. First visit here?
TenguPhule
The only thing that comes to mind is something from the French Revolution: Kill them all, then start over.
pharniel
I was thinking Young Frankienstien: “A riot is an ugly thing……”
John Rohan
Here we go again…
I’m sick of all you “yes men” on this site that don’t know jack about the military and pretend like you have a clue on this issue.
This was a “sick group of kids”, it was a bunch of national guard military policemen who were bored and so started acting like dumbasses.
Here are a couple of “inconvenient” facts:
1) The Abu Gharaib scandal had nothing to do with interrogations or interrogation techniques. These were policemen and prison guards, not trained interrogators. I promise, nobody was trying to get intel from the prisoners while they were in their human pyramids.
2) Bush, Rumsfeld, et al, or any senior leadership had nothing to do with it. The soldiers involved had no access to high-level secret memos on CIA techniques, waterboarding or anything else. Plus, they knew it was wrong. Most human beings know this without needing any special training. Still, in my entire 14 year Army career I have never seen any memo, training, or guidance that would tell me this behavior was ok, and that includes during both the Clinton and Bush years.
So please, Mr. Cole, please point out to me any instance in which those:
Or is finding facts harder than taking cheap shots from the comfort of your easy chair?
So why should everyone’s heads roll on this issue? Oh, I know why – because in 2004, media outlets like the NYT saturated us with the story, frontpaging it 43 times in 47 days, while often ignoring stories of real torture (see here)
FYI – I was in Baghdad while this scandal was going on, and I am a trained interrogator.
Zifnab
Yeah, I call absolute and total bullshit. But thanks for playing.
Pb
John Rohan,
See above, follow the links, etc., etc.; look up Geoffrey Miller, the severe beating of Spc. Sean Baker at Guantanamo, read Sam Provance’s account, check out the Gonzales torture memos, the Taguba report, “big Steve” (contractor for CACI), Rumsfeld’s approval of enhanced interrogation techniques, Bush’s rules for CIA interrogators, etc., etc., and then attempt to explain this:
And no, “The New York Times did it!” is not an answer. The New York Times did not torture Manadel al-Jamadi to death either. Try again.
canuckistani
This will win some heats and minds for sure!
Dreggas
Ok Rummy…
Lemme see. These soldiers magically and through psychic powers of teh awesomeness came up with techniques used at Gitmo immediately following the transfer of the general in charge of gitmo who specifically talked about having guards “soften” the prisoners up for interrogation.
Obviously you haven’t been paying attention then since it has been well documented that the interrogation techniques employed both at gitmo and at sites in afghanistan as well as Iraq are the same techniques you’ve never seen employed. They’re staring you in the face but you refuse to see them now. Just because you weren’t involved in them doesn’t mean they weren’t occurring. Last I looked it was the CIA performing these interrogations and if military interrogators were involved then you would probably not be one of them since, by your own words, you’d never engage in this sort of thing. Ever think that many of us are pissed about this, not because we hate the military, but because this shit is being done by the military we served in? Or are you willing to settle for anything the brass says?
Were you in Abu Ghraib?
Jake
The Rohirrim have arrived!
You know, sometimes I think John should mention that he is a vet in his profile to spare folks the embarrassment of declaring that he knows jack about the military. Not to mention the other vets who regularly comment.
But then it happens and its always funny.
Never mind.
John Cole
Did I miss something?
Doesn’t matter- I was informed by the patriots who comment at neptunus lex and Blacfive that my service was tainted and that I was a disgrace to the military.
Seriously. Who gives a shit what these dead enders think?
whippoorwill
Dear Mr. Rohan.
What about the many pictures of DIA guys standing around with their thumb up their asses while this was happening. And the National Guard slur you make is unbecoming, They happened to be active duty at the time as all National Guard in Iraq. They have spilled their blood in large quantity for this misbegotten war. So show a little respect.
FUTURE PREDICTION; In the not to distant future many secrets will be revealed that will make Abu Graib seem like childsplay.
Jake
Isn’t there some saying about judging a man by his enemies or how viciously his enemies attack him?
Either way, looks like you’re ready for sainthood. Hope Tunch doesn’t smack your halo under the stove.
John Rohan
Not as much time as I would like, but I’ll answer these things one at a time:
PB said:
Geoffrey Miller – Ok, any particular evidence that he ordered anyone to commit torture? I know “GTMOising” and softening sounds “torturous”, but I would like to see some evidence of ordering torture. In any case, he denies he ordered any, but even if you don’t believe him, its gotta be at least as credible as the wikipedia entry you quoted.
Sean Baker – that’s Guantanamo, not Abu Gharaib. Try again.
Sam Provance – I don’t have any opinion on his account whatoever. Why? Becauae the only place I see his story is on radical leftist sites like truthout.org, antiwar.com, etc. I can’t find any detail about him on any mainstream media outlet (he doesn’t even have a wiki page). He claims he was drummed out because he was a whistleblower, but you can’t just kick someone out of the Army on a whim (its actually a very difficult and drawn-out process, especially in a war zone. Plus he can get a lawyer to defend himself). His discharge would have to list a reason, and people would have to have testified under oath to that reason, so I would like to know what the specific charges were that kicked him out, otherwise it sounds like BS.
Rumsfeld’s approval of interrogation techniques?? Bush’s rules for the CIA? Are you joking??? Do you think that Sgt Graner or Pfc Lynndie England were privy to the highest level secret plans for CIA interrogators? It looked like they didn’t even the regulations that were openly on the books!
Stjepan Mestrovic, the sociologist – without knowing exactly what techniques he is talking about, I couldn’t say. But you would need a hell of a burden of proof before I’m going to take the word of a sociologist(!) over my own military experience. The interrogator school was a very intense course lasting nine weeks, and it’s only open to soldiers who score very high on the ASVAB (basically the Army’s IQ test). In a war zone, you don’t have the kind of time to pull out a large group of soldiers and train them in detail how to do interrogations, especially when the soldiers in question are not exactly the “cream of the crop”.
Moreover, the word “interrogation” is being used far too loosely here. Interrogations involve questioning people about specific points of information. Pfc England, Graner and the others were NOT performing any interrogations and were not trying (nor were interested) to get information from anyone.
Manadel al-Jamadi – Here you have a point. What happened to him may have been a crime, but since I wasn’t there, I don’t know. His death allegedly came at the hands of Navy SEALs, and while he was held at Abu Gharaib but (and you can correct me if I’m wrong) his death doesn’t have anything to do with the charges against the prison leadership or LTC Jordan.
Dreggas asked:
Nope. But I was not far away, at Camp Slayer in Baghdad. Moreover, many prisoners were sent to Abu Gharaib on my orders and some of them I saw again after they were released (sometimes they would come back to me to ask about other arrested relatives, or to try to get missing ID cards back, etc). None of them claimed they were abused by guards in any way. Of course, they had lots of complaints and were pissed off about it, but that’s to be expected. The closest I heard was when one told me he saw a prisoner pushed out of a window by another prisoner (and he was treated by the Americans, and not seriously hurt).
Jake said:
I know that John Cole claims to have served. I saw that awhile ago in this comment (https://www.balloon-juice.com/?p=8452#comment-348868) where he tried to use his “vast expertise” to bully someone into silence (and he was wrong there too, but that’s another topic). Here I said I was simply mocking the crowd of “yes men” following him in the thread.
whippoorwill said:
What slur?? Where the hell do you get that from? I said, quote:“it was a bunch of national guard military policemen who were bored and so started acting like dumbasses”. They did act like dumbasses, and that has nothing to do with their being National Guard. I only mentioned that to emphasize that these were not interrogators (who only belong to the Reserve and Active Army, btw), not CIA, not Military Intelligence at all.
whippoorwill
Mr. Rohan,
You could have just said “It was bunch of military policeman who were bored and so started acting like dumbasses”.This would have made your point. The addition of National Guard to described them was a thinly veiled dig from a regular army guy to the National Guard. Do you think you are the only vet commenting on this site?
Oh, and what about those pesky photos with military intelligence persons present at the scene of the crimes?
John Cole
You know, I had something else posted, but why bother.
Rohan believes what he wants to believe, and my time in an Abrams and Bradley are snidely dismissed with air quotes (“vast expertise”). Clearly his time up at s4 trumps the years I was actually in an M1.
And Whip, you are right- he is active and was shitting on the Guard troops.
jake
And Mr. Rohan claims to have stopped stomping puppies.
Of course we believe him.
Keep up the good work John, watching these guys crack is priceless.
John Cole
It is like watching a retarded junior league debate team. They question everything unless it comes from a reliable source, like, say- Hugh hewitt or Michelle Malkin.
‘I know he claims to have served…”
GFY.
Prove you have served, Rohan. Why blog anonymously?
Oh yeah- because you saw what your asshole friends did to Beauchamp and willingly will do to anyone who disagrees with you. You are probably smart to remain anonymous. But that means I get to run around, by your rules, and state things like “you have claimed to serve.”
Fun, hunh? Maybe if you are 12.
ATS
Pity no one asked Frank Gaffney about Black Scorpion but then we all know why.
TenguPhule
Sure it didn’t. That’s why the Bush Admin and the Pentagon made a coordinated effort to keep it quiet, because they had nothing to hide.
John Rohan
whipporwill:
If simply mentioning something = a “slur”, then you can also accuse me of making a slur against military police. Where does that end? If you knew anything about the Army right now, you would know that a few years ago, all combat arms went into the guard and combat support (like intel) & service support went to the Reserve. That´s why I pointed that out.
You mean like Rumsfeld himself? Yeah, that proves… what, I don´t know.
john cole:
I was never in an S4 shop, I´ve been military intelligence nearly my entire career, and done most of it on the “street” level. Your time in a tank notwithstanding, how many times have you: 1) Been to Iraq, 2) served in war, 3) seen combat, 4) interrogated prisoners?
When you resort to insults, it proves you have nothing real to respond with. I´m sure they teach that even to junior high debating teams.
Actually, I don´t really. I have given plenty of people my name and contact info. I just don´t feel the need to advertise it for no reason. If you email me at johnrohan -at- hotmail.com, I´ll be glad to give you my work email or work phone, if you really feel like I´m bluffing. Or, there´s a simpler way. Just go to
http://www.flickr.com/photos/johnrohan/sets/72157600885002767/
or here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/johnrohan/sets/72157600872808430/
– and you can see some of the time I spent in my “S4” shop.
JR