If I had to pick which ’08 candidate would be the first to the post with a bill that unflinchingly mandated an exit deadline from Iraq, I’m not sure that I would have guessed Barrack Obama. Wasn’t he supposed the be a centrist?
The Illinois senator introduced a bill to force the redeployment under law, but that’s unlikely while Bush is president. Still, Obama said he’s taking Bush up on his challenge to critics to offer alternatives.
Obama’s bill would cap troop levels in Iraq at the early January level of around 130,000, when Bush announced he would send 21,500 additional U.S. forces to Iraq. It would require that troops begin coming home on May 1 with the goal of removing all combat brigades by March 31, 2008.
[…] Obama said troops should be sent to three locations – home to the United States, in countries around Iraq to prevent regional conflict and to Afghanistan, which he said is in danger of falling back to the Taliban.The bill also would place conditions on economic aid to Iraq and would allow for a temporary suspension of the redeployment if the Iraqis meet security, political and economic benchmarks.
Kevin Drum is unimpressed, making this the second Obama proposal that left him cold. Jason Sigger, an arms control and CBRN warfare expert, disagrees:
Obama is creating a carefully crafted congressional bill that could actually succeed because 1) it doesn’t screw with the president’s commander-in-chief responsibilities, 2) exercises Congress’s actual responsibilities to participate in foreign policy and national security matters, and 3) counters the president’s (and Republican party’s) claims that there is no reasonable alternative to “staying the course.” It just might work. It at least showcases Obama’s leadership abilities in the Senate. I like it.
On the balance I find Sigger’s perspective more compelling. Between the filibuster and the veto Obama’s bill will never see the light of law, but it probably doesn’t have to. I doubt that was even its intended purpose, although it seems well enough written not to bite anyone in the ass if it defies probability and passes. Rather, think about Obama’s unique position in the Democratic party. Excluding non-candidates like Joe Biden Sen. Obama and Sen. Clinton are the two centrists in the race, but unlike Hil Sen. Clinton the press doesn’t hate him. As of now anyway the press practically eats out of his hand. Obama’s unflinching endorsement will make it much harder for pundits to tar other pro-pullout Dems as extremist, unserious &c. On two important issues now he’s carrying the banner and, as far as I’m concerned, he is carrying it in the right direction.
I don’t know how much of this effect comes from Obama’s politics and how much comes from his undeniable charisma. It’s possible that as the campaign drags on and he defines himself in more detail the effect won’t last. But for now Obama seems to not so much move to the center as redefine it and make it a place where people want to be. That can provide tons of cover for allied politicians, and for the opposition party that’s a real problem. That should help explain why more than any other pol in the ’08 race the rightwing noise machine has gone out of its way to to define Obama on its own terms.
***Update***
How do you deal with FOX News’s complicity in the stupid madrassa smear? Freeze ’em out. Smart move.
ThymeZone
We could have captured Obama when we had the chance at Tora Bora.
Oh, wait ….
Rome Again
Getting our troops out of Iraq is beginning it’s journey of acceptance as the new centrist position, Obama is just ahead of the curve, that’s all.
Zifnab
Last I checked, poll numbers were calling a gradual withdrawl the middle position since before the election. That Obama has embraced this stance puts him squarely in the center of the American opinion’s center, if not necessarily Capital Hill’s center.
The answer to “You don’t have a plan!” rhetoric from the White House has always been firm upperdown vote legislation. Put the record on the table and make the Republican-Americans take a stand for or against it. Then when Bush comes back and says “We have to surge because there is no other option”, the Democrats can respond, “There was, but you filibustered/vetoed it.”
Keep putting those bills and resolutions on the table. Keep making the Republican-American minority try and strike them down. We’ll move that Overton Window an inch at a time if we just keep moving it.
Wilfred
He just won my vote. Every poll I’ve seen shows the majority opposed to this surge nonsense and disgusted with the handling of the war, this after being hoodwinked into it.
For the right-wing screechers: The Terrorists Have Already Won. Nearly the entire professional class of Iraq has legged it, terrified of the endless violence, kidnappings and overall mayhem, all of which took root while Field Marshal Rumsfeld was saying we had enough troops. Our failure to protect the professional class, you know – the people you build a country with, leaves us the same conditions as post-civil war Afghanistan.
Get. Out. Now. Or in two years time tell the parents of every guy that dies between now and then why we stayed those extra two years. It’s time to press Bush and the war crowd.
Supporting the troops means telling them that no more of them have to die for nothing.
jg
What is ‘republican-americans’ all about?
Adam
Man, his ability to define the terms of a debate is just uncanny. I’m thinking back to his speech at the convention last year… jeez. He’s a virtuoso.
Andrew
Code word for Christian and/or gay.
Jackmormon
You all seem to have overlooked that Barack Obama is the anti-Christ.
ThymeZone
I agree ……………………………almost. Your point is well taken.
I think in the US population, that package was delivered some time ago.
I think what is happening now is that politicians are finally moving toward the peoples’ center. The people want this war over, and the Bush nightmare, over.
Thoughts?
TenguPhule
Amen.
The Other Steve
It’s pretty self explanatory, and is a simple way of differentiating them from real americans.
TenguPhule
If all else fails, there’s always Operation Darrell.
Step 1. Round up the Darrells in America
Step 2. Dumo them in Iraq
Step 3. Evacuate the troops while the Iraqis are busy chopping up the Darrells.
Step 4. Profit!
The Other Steve
I would just like to point out that John Edwards called for the pull out of troops from Iraq at least a year ago.
Sadly, he didn’t call for it in 2004 when it would have mattered, or when such a call would have shown real courage. But don’t worry, he announced in New Orleans and that proves that he cares about you.
The Other Steve
how dare you claim these soldiers died for nothing!
They died for our freedoms!
George Bush told me so.
Elvis Elvisberg
Zifnab has it. This is a centrist position.
DC-speak is mired in some bizarro-world political correctness, where everyone is obligated to demonstrate their Sober, Respectable Seriousness by favoring war and escalation, regardless of context. But that’s not where the country is.
Jake
I doubt this is true (that it counters the claims) but I can understand the confusion. If you operate on the generally accepted or even the legal definition of “reasonable” then yes, the proposal is reasonable. But to the StaytheCourers there is no “reasonable” alternative to Das Surge (TM) unless it comes from President StC (or Cheney). Certainly no suggestions from a Terrorist Coddling DEMONcRAT will be deemed reasonable. Still, I like the idea of any legislator coming up with alternative plans. It makes the cries of “Yeah? Let’s hear your idea, wise guy!” seem rather…shrill.
Rome Again
Well, yeah, I thought that was a given, sorry.
ThymeZone
Gotcha. I just think it’s funny how the blahsphere treats the politicians as though they are the keepers of these flames. I always liked the idea where the people were.
Of course, I am notoriously old fashioned :-)
Rome Again
If it’s not about the people, then stop this train, I think this is my stop.
Tsulagi
I lean more toward the Drum take. Don’t know who Sigger is or his background, but I don’t see how he can say Obama’s plan doesn’t screw with a president’s (Bush or anyone else who would be in that office) responsibilities and authority.
Obama’s plan seems to be saying Congress now realizes it is the previously unknown uber CIC. Even if in some alternate universe there were enough votes in the House and Senate to override a veto, it would not pass muster in the Supreme Court here. I’m fairly certain I wouldn’t want it to.
Don’t get me wrong, if I had the Big Pen in that alternate universe I’d sign this sucker. Actually, if I inherited this grand FUBAR you wouldn’t have to ask me to sign, it’d already be underway.
Haven’t seen it yet, but a plan from Feingold I heard about yesterday sounded far more practical and one that would pass constitutional muster. One that would stop funding for continuing OIF, but not any funding needed for force protection while withdrawing. Of course, though, even if in a closer alternate universe that passed over a veto, Decider Man would attach a finding saying it didn’t apply to him.
Teak111
As a centrist, I favor a viable solution to the Iraq mess that may include a withdrawal to bases outside major cities. I’m not in favor of complete withdraw to leave Iraq to colapse into all out civil war. The Surge is indicative of the old lanaguage of winning and defeating the unsurgents, so 2003. So I’m with Drum on Obamas position, its political rhetoric articluated by any number of dems over the years. What the dems need is a slogan that signified pullback and control that doesn’t sound wimpy. If hillary can articulate such a position, I think that gives her points over Obama. Any slogans comes to mind?
Pullback to move forward
Stand down so the Iraqies can stand up
Iraqy independance now
Of course, this is exactly what Maliki wants, then he let the malitias loose and no more Sunnie problem. Of course, no more Sunnis either. But maybe that has to happen. I still like the idea of getting the world to help with this problem and that means blue hats. IOWs, frame Iraq so the UN and the world want to help.
jenniebee
Story on NPR this morning saying that the current posturing about Iran is moving us toward a point where the last four years is going to look like flowers, chocolates and hand-jobs by comparison.
listen here
Rome Again
Spending time on Kos last night, I felt as if zero hour were about to occur any moment. Someone stop these maniacs, please.
Zifnab
That’s what the neo-cons promised. It’s about time we get it.
Sherard
You want to know where Obama’s newfound cajones came from ? Simple:
When one of your chief competition calls you out, the only thing to do is up the ante. Of course, as Tim points out, the fact it will never see the light of day on the Senate floor kind of minimizes the risk, doesn’t it. You can be sure, though, people will not forget.
Quoted from this article.
Rome Again
I’m sorta hoping there is a God, and he’s gonna smash them down right before the entire world goes up in flames.
Sherard
Sorry folks, but “retreat” is not an “alternative plan”. It is “retreat”. “Alternative plans” are those that have a goal of actually accomplishing something in Iraq. The only goals for Obama’s “retreat” alternative is “get elected in ’08”. If you don’t think so, you are pretty naive considering he was only supporting the non-binding resolution a week ago.
Andrew
Sherard, would you pay more in taxes to continue the Iraq war? If so, how much?
Rome Again
I’m all for taking any help we can get right now to stop this madness and get our kids out of there. The only thing this war is good for is setting the world on fire so Jebus can come back.
Tsulagi
Sherard, your White House team in the short pants have baked a shit pie in Iraq. Cooking it more with a ‘surge’ is not a plan. The pie will not be any tastier.
Zifnab
So, I guess what Obama was trying to say is “Bring it On!”?
Good thing he didn’t say that to a bunch of terrorists.
Pb
Obama’s bill sounds like a good start–it’s a bit weaker than Feingold’s bill, which I think is better but also less likely to pass.
Also, I think it’s hilarious that the Republican hacks out there are jumping all over the Democrats for not being more aggressive (i.e. giving them more ammunition).
I guess as long as the Democrats are pushing for non-binding resolutions first, or enacting responsible budgets, the hacks out there won’t be able to as effectively tar the left as being wacko, shrill, socialist America-haters–not that it ever stops them from trying.
But really, which one is it, morons–are the Dems too radical, or not radical enough? Oh, those cowardly radical moderate revolutionaries, with their ‘budgets’ and ‘resolutions’ and ‘reforms’ and ‘clean air’…
Kirk Spencer
Sherard,
Back when I took classes on tactics, there was a certain mindset that inevitably died. That was the mindset that refused to accept tactical retreat. There are times to stick it out – no doubt about it. But far too often catastrophe comes from holding against the odds — from continuing to send troops to where the yellow lights are flashing.
The core is the confusion I see from people thinking winning the campaign in Iraq is equivalent to winning the war on terrorism. We unfortunately over-reached ourselves in making it a critical area, and it will hurt us to withdraw. But it will hurt us WORSE to stay and destroy what we have left.
Withdraw, regroup, reorient, and progress to victory. The battle is not the war.
Zifnab
It’s fun to see the Republicans complain about the Dems “not doing enough” on pretty much anything. “Why aren’t you cracking down hard enough on earmarks?! Why aren’t you balancing the budget?! Why haven’t you won the war on terror yet?! If we were in the majority, we would have fixed all of this by now, we swear.”
Jake
Only if you watch the right movies. There are orderly retreats that never appear in movies because they are dull. Then there are full on cluster fucks that involve everyone running like hell.
Punchy
I will not vote for Obama Bin Laden since he was educated in a madrassa and is thus Muslim and hates all crackers and abortions and busy signals and carboxypeptidases.
Zifnab
I think the technical term for that is a “route” or a “getting the hell out of Vietnam”. Who could have had us retreating from Vietnam in an orderly and disciplined fashion? Oh, right. Nixon. Who had us turning tail and hauling ass out because we’d been pressed to the breaking point? Oh right. Ford.
Both Republicans. Hmmmmmmmmm..
Tsulagi
Good on him. If they asked how they could be unfrozen, I’d tell them to have their lapdog mascot, Bill O’, say on his Spin Zone segment they’d screwed up. Until then, piss off.
Andrei
That’s like the same twisted logic that tries to claim that condoms are not real forms of birth control, only abstinence is. You can believe it all you want, but it doesn’t mean you are right nor does it automatically match reality in any pragmatic way.
There are many ways to get out of a bar fight, one of which is to walk away even if you have to take at least one hard punch while doing so. While in your world the guy that walks away might be a pussy, in the minds of many others he’s a bigger man for being able to take the high road.
That’s just an example by the way… it’s intended to make a point, not to make a direct correlation between a the Iraq War or a bar fight.
Zifnab
For instance, we’ve got one fight started by a liar and a drunk. And the other takes place in a bar.
Jonathan
Actually the iconic scene of helicopters evacuating Vietnam was the evacuation of the American embassy in Saigon. Combat troops had been orderly evacuated considerably before that.
Jake
The Word Nerd strikes again. But yes. And of course, in the movies it is always the bad guy who runs away with his arse in his helmet while the hero kisses the girl. Real life ain’t so neat.
PotD
chopper
once your souffle falls, turning up the heat will not fix it.
TenguPhule
Retreat is part of the plan. The other is called ‘containment’. Remember that? it worked pretty well for us for about 12 years until Bush Jr. got a hardon in his codpiece.
Rome Again
Sings in a Maurice Chevalier sort of way: “Ah, Yes, I remember it well.”
Jimmy Mack
That’s why this will never see the light of day. No way the Democrat party will openly embrace retreat as much as they might want to. I’m afraid Pelosi is a little too smart for that.
Doug H.
Adolf Hitler to General Paulus, November 1942
Richard 23
What is the Republic party’s plan for the safety our troops, Jimmy?
Zifnab
Adolf Hitler said “folks”? I’m sorry, but you’re stretching my credibility.
Rome Again
Shhhhh! It’s a pretend game Zif, got it?
Jonathan
Actually that would be “volks”.
Rome Again
Is that volks pronounced with a v, or volks pronounced with a double v? I get them both confused.
Jonathan
Damned if I know.
My mother was somewhat fluent in German and she always pronounced Volkswagen as VolksVagen, that’s all I know.
rachel
Say… Hasn’t FOX’s audience share been falling in recent years? And, isn’t an increasing percentage of the US population woken up to the fact that FOX is not entirely honest, complete or thorough in its news broadcasts?
Maybe Obama freezing out FOX is just a sign of things to come.
Chuck Butcher
You don’t need to pass these bills. You need to stick them in the Republicans’ faces let them filibuster or veto, then bring it back again and again. Very publicly – noisily. Poke the stick in their eye over and over and make sure you’re seen doing it. House, send the min wage back clean again, and again and again and stick it in their eye. If you want to do politics, then don’t screw around, make the shitheels pay and pay. This ain’t patty cake and they aren’t elected to be pussies. This is same ole shit with a slightly different tilt and that’s not what Americans voted to do. But then, I’m a gun totin’ lefty hardass, so …
The Other Andrew
Jimmy Mack–do you think the Democrats (or, for that matter, Republicans) will never support withdrawal? Judging by your phrasing, I thought that might be the case.
Scruffy McSnufflepuss
Iraq? That place is a fucking mess. Let’s just get the fuck out, now.
General von Paulus? He had the chance to retreat, but he chose to stay the course. He wouldn’t cut and run just because his surrounded, starving army had a relief column under within 25 miles of their southwesternmost positions. He knew that you had to fight Bolshevism on the Volga so you wouldn’t have to fight it on the streets of Berlin, and… oh, wait.
Anyway, at least Hitler had a PLAN for dealing with Soviet Russia! What was the Social Democrats’ plan?