Tiptoeing Around Persia

We seem to have created quite a mess of the middle east. Beyond the literal disfigurement of Iraq, take a moment to survey the dead and dying remnants of our geopolitical interests in the region, not least typified by the staggering degree to which we have set ourselves back and pushed forward the interests of Iran. Read this from today’s Washington Post to get a sense of which way friendly Arab governments sense the wind blowing:

Kuwait rarely rebuffs its ally, the United States, partly out of gratitude for the 1991 Persian Gulf War. But in October it reneged on a pledge to send three military observers to an American-led naval exercise in the Gulf, according to U.S. officials and Kuwaiti analysts.

“We understood,” a State Department official said. “The Kuwaitis were being careful not to antagonize the Iranians.”

Four years after the United States invaded Iraq, in part to transform the Middle East, Iran is ascendant, many in the region view the Americans in retreat, and Arab countries, their own feelings of weakness accentuated, are awash in sharpening sectarian currents that many blame the United States for exacerbating.

Where is Iran’s regional competitor? Gone, hung by a Sadrist mob. Rather than shoring up its western front Iran now concerns itself with establishing banks and augmenting their already-strong relationship with the new leaders through guns and training. Whether or not those Iranian IEDs have any basis in reality it appears that Iran has every intention of filling the power vacuum when American troops leave. The alliance doesn’t even need to be clandestine or hidden like our administration alleges, just an out-in-the-open, chummy military partnership between friends. Israel willl no doubt be thrilled.

The sad part is the utter non-inevitability of all of this. No reason in the world compelled us to invade Iraq. Even then the Iranians made unambiguous efforts to normalize relations with the U.S., apparently in perfectly good faith (1, 2, 3), which the U.S. adamantly rejected. Why negotiate away, the thinking seems to have gone, what we can take by force? Except as it turns out, we don’t have a force anymore and our regional credibility is shot.

Brilliant minds. When you add it all together Iranian agents would have a hard time crafting a more favorable series of policies on our part. Maybe the saddest of all is watching a president who oversaw the dumbest foreign policy since Syracuse try to recover his past glory with still more brinksmanship.

As they say, if brute force isn’t working…






444 replies
  1. 1
    dreggas says:

    Ya know I am half wondering if this wasn’t part of some grand plan. With Raw Story reporting on the moves behind the scenes and such to ratchet up a war with Iran over the past 6 years I wonder if the whole point of Iraq was to encourage the Iranians to step up and then give this admin a reason, any reason to go after them.

    I mean c’mon Rumsfeld knew damn well we supported Hussein against the Mullahs to prevent this same situation from happening. We wanted the Mullah’s checked since they were cozy with the soviets (and still are cozy with the russians) and because they were the opposition religiously and culturally speaking to our allies in the region.

    To sit there and say uh gee we didn’t know this would happen is complete and utter horse shit.

    on a side note am I the only one who thinks there are far…FAR more important things than a freaking horse being euthanized (Barbaro) and that the news has actually been talking about FUNERAL ARRANGEMENTS?!?!

  2. 2
    TenguPhule says:

    on a side note am I the only one who thinks there are far…FAR more important things than a freaking horse being euthanized (Barbaro) and that the news has actually been talking about FUNERAL ARRANGEMENTS?

    No. But I fear it will take our Chinese Overlords shooting those cable newsies in job lots to stop that.

  3. 3
    Fledermaus says:

    Someone, I can’t remember who, described the Bush position on negotiations as: You don’t negotiate when you’re in a strong position because you can bully everyone to your way of thinking and you don’t negotiate when your position is weak because that rewards bad behavior.

  4. 4
    Andrei says:

    I know I’ll be showing my ignorance with this post, but I prefer to be enlightened than to wallow in lack of knowledge… What would one speculate if Osama Bin Laden considers his attack on the World Trade Center a success in light of this sort of thing? Who does Bin Laden or the various terrorist organizations show more sympathy or support for? The Persians or the Arabians? How has our dipping into the Middle East affected this aspect of the struggle?

    Again, as much as I’ve read on the Middle East and followed events the past 6 years, I’m still at a loss when it comes to understanding what the core goals of most of the terrorist organzations and what they think they will achieve by their acts of violence. I would love if someone could point me to more information on this so I can get out of the muck.

  5. 5
    Bubblegum Tate says:

    Persia? Does this mean we’re talking about The White Rapper Show?

    But seriously, this sentence:

    Even then the Iranians made unambiguous efforts to normalize relations with the U.S., apparently in perfectly good faith (1, 2, 3), which the U.S. adamantly rejected.

    pretty much guarantees that this thread will be Darrelled within the next half-hour.

  6. 6
    TenguPhule says:

    “You want me to give you my opinion? Honestly?” asked Hajj Hassan Sbeiti, a 44-year-old merchant, his face breaking into a wry smile. “If you say hello to me, you probably like me. If you say hello to me and ask what I need, you’re a friend. If you say hello to me, ask what I need and put money in my hand, then you’re going to be my brother.”

    Iran has a lot of brothers now.

  7. 7
    Teak111 says:

    Yes, when you look at the ultimate question regarding Iraq, should we have done it, the biggest gamble was taking out Iran’s natural enermy and screwing up the balance of ME power. Of course, we thought the “new” Iraq gov would be friendly to the US and help us against Iran, but that didn’t happen. Too much cock and balls and not enough brains. Iran couldn’t be happier they way things have turned out and all the Shia in the area for that matter. Where the hell was the discussion regarding centuries-old shia and sunnis animosity in the runup to the war? Iraq is truely a FP blunder and everyone knows it. Reminds my of the scene in All the President’s men where Redford is talking to Deep Throat, who says, “despite what you think these guys aren’t very smart.”
    Pass the popcorn.

  8. 8
    Tim F. says:

    Andrei,

    Iran isn’t particularly fond of al Qaeda and previously fought a war with the Taliban. From AQ’s perspective the Iranian Shiites are infidels who may actually be worse than the non-Muslim kind because they claim to be Muslim but screw it up. That isn’t to say that the two will never make common cause for any reason, period, but there isn’t a very deep well of trust there.

  9. 9
    TenguPhule says:

    What would one speculate if Osama Bin Laden considers his attack on the World Trade Center a success in light of this sort of thing? Who does Bin Laden or the various terrorist organizations show more sympathy or support for?

    Honestly? It’s a mixed bag. Al Queda is Sunni, Iran is Shia and the two sects have a lot of bad blood spanning back to the original split. It all depends on how pragmatic either side is. Not so much an alliance as a ‘live and let live’ approach as they find mutual benefit in leaving each other alone since they both have a common foe, Us.

    Of course, Al Queda didn’t help themselves on that front in Iraq by going after Shia…but another war front can make for strange bedfellows.

    How has our dipping into the Middle East affected this aspect of the struggle?

    I wish I knew. So does everybody else.

  10. 10
    Jake says:

    Guess there’s only one thing to do: Invade Kuwait!

    …on a side note am I the only one who thinks there are far…FAR more important things than a freaking horse being euthanized (Barbaro)

    No. But at least there wasn’t a repeat of the Schiavo Circus to save him.

  11. 11
    TenguPhule says:

    I’m still at a loss when it comes to understanding what the core goals of most of the terrorist organzations and what they think they will achieve by their acts of violence.

    Each one has a different goal. Lot of them are trying to depose the government in power for one reason or another. Others have it in for regional policies. Some of them are just continuation of old feuds spanning back to who knows when.

  12. 12
    jg says:

    I’m still at a loss when it comes to understanding what the core goals of most of the terrorist organzations and what they think they will achieve by their acts of violence.

    All politics is local.

  13. 13
    Tsulagi says:

    I like the cover on this week’s issue of Time magazine: “Only 648 days until the election!” LOL. I think we can almost get a full bipartisan “Thank you, Jesus!” to that observation.

    Except maybe over at Red State which has a post up also based on the Washington Post story used in this one. The poster, streiff, sees a pony of monumental proportions in the making from our Iraqi adventure. Even goes beyond Cheney’s brilliance sagely assessing time is on our side, but not with the Iranians. Stay the course. As part of his argument buttressing, he links to an observation there are Iranian hookers in Europe. Iran’s demise is imminent. Their birthrate is on par with Canada.

  14. 14
  15. 15
    Barbaro's girlfriend says:

    there are far…FAR more important things than a freaking horse being euthanized (Barbaro) and that the news has actually been talking about FUNERAL ARRANGEMENTS?

    Go screw yerself. Neigh. Where’s my oats, dammit?

  16. 16
    Zifnab says:

    President Bush has rejected calls that the United States win Iran’s help in easing Iraq’s bloodshed and resolve the political crisis in Lebanon that erupted into violence last week. Instead, he has vowed to break what he called Iranian support for militants in both countries.

    Saudi Arabia’s willingness to work with Iran likely indicates the growing alarm in the kingdom’s leadership over the two simultaneous crises, which have inflamed Sunni-Shiite tensions throughout the Middle East.

    Call me crazy, but maybe this is what the Middle East really needs? For the past 50 years the West has been wheeling and dealing in the Middle East, babysitting them on one end and pitting them against each other on the other. Then, in steps Bush who FUBARs the entire operation. Suddenly, the Middle East can’t rely on competent support from the US or England. And with the western military at its weakest, the Middle East doesn’t feel the bully-stick at its back like it did 20 or 30 years ago.

    Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria, Isreal, Lebanon, Egypt, Jordan, and the rest can’t rely on white people to solve their problems anymore (because white people leadership has turned suddenly, disasterously stupid). It’s the new dawn of International Personal Responsibility. Republicanism works.

  17. 17
    dreggas says:

    Barbaro’s girlfriend Says:

    Go screw yerself. Neigh. Where’s my oats, dammit?

    Two words: Glue Factory.

    And two More: Dog Food.

  18. 18
    Pb says:

    As they say, if brute force isn’t working…

    …try, try again?

    …third time’s the charm?

    …stay the course?

    …best 3 out of 5?

    …mission accomplished?

  19. 19
    dreggas says:

    Pb Says:

    As they say, if brute force isn’t working…

    …try, try again?

    F*ck her gently?

  20. 20
    dreggas says:

    dreggas Says:

    Pb Says:

    As they say, if brute force isn’t working…

    …try, try again?

    F*ck her gently?

    Ah hell the link should have been THIS

  21. 21
    dreggas says:

    Test…

    Hope it works this time, stupid code…

  22. 22
    Zifnab says:

    Tenacious D.

    Classic :)

  23. 23
    Sherard says:

    Where is Iran’s regional competitor? Gone

    Wow, what an absolutely BRILLIANT argument. They easiest way to recognize someone that isn’t serious about anything in the Middle East is when they suggest “things would be better if Saddam were still in power”. Congratulations! Your deductive powers as they relate to Iraq are now on par with Howard Stern.

  24. 24
    Zifnab says:

    Sherad has a small penis.

  25. 25
    Sherard says:

    And golly, I would swear that all the “principled lefties” have gone on and on over the last few years – when it suits their agenda, of course – that it’s just so dirty, so WRONG to support tyrants, that you can’t just take down one, what is Bush doing about Chavez or Kim Jung-Il or Mushareff, or his buddies the Saudis ?

    Well, except when it DOESN’T suit their agenda. NOW they are in favor of siding with tyrants like Saddam because it enforces the preferrable “status quo” stalemate. Because Lord knows, you can stave off war with a tyrant forever. They never do anything bad.

    I wonder… hhhhhmmmm… if the Kuwaitees would rather be in the position they are today worrying a little about the potential, future, intentions of Iran, or rolling back all the damage and killing that Saddam’s army did when they invaded Kuwait.

    Man, that’s a toughie.

  26. 26
    Zifnab says:

    And she’s fat.

    Like, Michael Moore fat.

  27. 27
    Sherard says:

    Good one, Zifnab. Glad to see you upholding the expected level of intelligence here.

  28. 28
    Andrei says:

    Iran isn’t particularly fond of al Qaeda and previously fought a war with the Taliban. From AQ’s perspective the Iranian Shiites are infidels who may actually be worse than the non-Muslim kind because they claim to be Muslim but screw it up. That isn’t to say that the two will never make common cause for any reason, period, but there isn’t a very deep well of trust there.

    That’s what I assumed, even though I was chicken to voice that without feeling like I knew better. I know Bin Laden makes claims that he is fighting the Americans partially because they occupy parts of Saudi Arabia, but I wasn’t sure how that plays out with the Persian equation into this whole thing.

    The more one looks at the whole Middle East thing and how the United States approached the problem, the more one realizes just how much American bravado and hubris has basically poured gasoline onto a fire.

    We need to start calling our war what it is: Vengence. All of it has been a play at exacting revenge on someone for the horror of 9/11 while some used it cynically as a means to gain political power. All with a patent regard for what the mature thing would be to do to actually solve the problem.

    It’s like a cliched bar room brawl scene from a B-Movie out of Hollywood. Someone starts a fight by, then the person that got punched winds up and punches the wrong guy, which creates an opening for another bully to get his punches in and suddenly the whole places is raging with out of control violence.

  29. 29
    matt says:

    Since we’re admitting our ignorance in the spirit of better understanding, can I ask what the whole deal with the middle east is really about?

    I know there are terrorists who want to kill as many Americans as possible, I know these particular terrorists mostly come from the middle east, and I know it’s a real problem. But what does that have to do with Iraq, or how influential Iran is or isn’t?

    I’m not (obviously) expressing myself very effectively, but is all of this worth trillions of dollars, hundreds of thousands of lives, and all the shit we’re going through?

    Why can’t this problem be taken care of with a few Special Forces units blowing up terrorists camps when they spring up? What’s with all the “battle of civilizations” framing? The WW3 stuff?

    I feel like a real simpleton when it comes to this, because in reality, I am, and I apologize for that. But the whole thing seems insane and way above my pay grade.

  30. 30
    Jake says:

    Glad to see you upholding the expected level of intelligence here.

    Aack! The Irony, it burns!

  31. 31
    Tom in Texas says:

    Beacuse in the land of Sherard, wishing we hadn’t eliminated Iraq’s self sustaining defense capabilities is the same thing as wishing for Saddam’s return. I’ll type really slow: Tim is wishing that Iraq had the capabilities to stand as a counterbalance in the region — in other words, he is wishing we had actually rebuilt the country after annihalating it. As a matter of fact, he never raised the name Saddam once. But you keep fighting the imaginary fight against those unserious libs who want dictators to run Iraq — we will fight the very real fight against dictators here.

  32. 32
    matt says:

    Tom, I wish you would post more. I love that this blog as a liberal voice and a conservative voice, it would be even better if it had a consistent libertarian voice. Like an all stop shopping blog or something. Get with the program, man!

  33. 33
    Pb says:

    things would be better if Saddam were still in power

    62% of Americans agree:

    “All in all, do you think the situation in Iraq was worth going to war over, or not?”

    1/13-16/07
    Worth It: 34%
    Not Worth It: 62%
    Unsure: 4%

  34. 34
    Zifnab says:

    Tom, you’re wasting your breath. Sherad only reacts to two things – penis snipes and fat jokes. This has been empirically proven. Don’t try to reason with it, because it knows only the bitter irony of the stupid hate. Like an angry fat chick with a bad skin condition and minor unspeakable genetic disorders, Sherad will continue to tell the world why she hates liberal men for their policies when she secretly just needs to get laid.

    There’s no arguing with that. Just relax and let her rant. Once the verbal reguritation is complete, she’ll head back over to LGF or Instapundit or wherever they keep the kool-aid flavored Hagen-Dais and you won’t see her for another few days. That’s just the way the world works.

  35. 35

    Well, getting all bent out of shape about this doesn’t make any sense, because after all, these events are just a comma.

    Soon enough, we’ll invade, be greeted as liberators, and the Iranian people will have a chance to practice their love with Americans.

    Utopia is right around the corner!

    Or Armageddon. Whichever.

    Anyway, nothing we do really matters in the end, so let’s blow more stuff up.

  36. 36
    Perry Como says:

    Since we’re admitting our ignorance in the spirit of better understanding, can I ask what the whole deal with the middle east is really about?

    Oil.

  37. 37

    But this was George Bush’s plan. We’re going to knock the whole middle east over like a stack of dominoes, and rebuild it in our image.

    Until you have an alternative plan for invading Iran, you lack all credibility on this matter.

  38. 38

    Say what you will. But Iran has got to have some of the sharpest minds on the planet. They made George Bush their bitch.

    Ok, granted, that wasn’t that hard to do.

  39. 39
    Jake says:

    But you keep fighting the imaginary fight against those unserious imaginary libs who want dictators to run Iraq and keep us from getting a pony.

    Feexed.

  40. 40
    scarshapedstar says:

    WE’RE FIGHTIN’ OSAMA SADDAM IRAN OVER THERE SO WE AIN’T FIGHTIN’ EM OVER HERE! NEVER FORGET TO SUPPORT THE TROOPS!

  41. 41
    dreggas says:

    Well, except when it DOESN’T suit their agenda. NOW they are in favor of siding with tyrants like Saddam because it enforces the preferrable “status quo” stalemate. Because Lord knows, you can stave off war with a tyrant forever. They never do anything bad.

    You know what…fuck it…here’s your sign, your not worth the time today.

  42. 42
    dreggas says:

    The Other Steve Says:

    Say what you will. But Iran has got to have some of the sharpest minds on the planet. They made George Bush their bitch.

    Ok, granted, that wasn’t that hard to do.

    Of course one does have to wonder why since he’s one ugly bitch.

  43. 43
    TenguPhule says:

    Why can’t this problem be taken care of with a few Special Forces units blowing up terrorists camps when they spring up? What’s with all the “battle of civilizations” framing? The WW3 stuff?

    Special Forces and Police work don’t attract multi-billion dollar funding year after year without any accountability for where the money goes. And they do dick for poll numbers.

  44. 44
    TenguPhule says:

    Because Lord knows, you can stave off war with a tyrant forever.

    Cuba, Sherad. Now bend over and pick up Bush’s soap again.

    I wonder… hhhhhmmmm… if the Kuwaitees would rather be in the position they are today worrying a little about the potential, future, intentions of Iran, or rolling back all the damage and killing that Saddam’s army did when they invaded Kuwait.

    I wonder if Sherad is an idiot. Then Sherad posts and removes all doubt. Kuwait wanted neither, and trying to place it as an either or is reserved for idiots who are trying to prove Darwin wrong through personal example.

  45. 45
    dreggas says:

    Special Forces and Police work don’t attract multi-billion dollar funding year after year without any accountability for where the money goes. And they do dick for poll numbers.

    And don’t forget that:

    1) reporters cannot be embedded with them so no stuff to watch on the Tee Vee.

    2) There’d be no shock and awe.

    3) The job would effectively be done and would have resulted in a one term presidency (most likely).

    4) If we had done it right Bush would have no shepherds crook to herd the Sheeple into Iraq which was just the staging ground for Cheney’s war with Iran.

  46. 46
    TenguPhule says:

    They easiest way to recognize someone that isn’t serious about anything in the Middle East is when they suggest “things would be better if Saddam were still in power”.

    Shorter Sherad: Yes it’s true, but stop pointing that out!

  47. 47
    Punchy says:

    Sherard has a small penis.

    Uh…Sherard is a chick. Look at the name. SHErard. Kinda rhymes with “retard” or “disbarred”. Not coincidently, I’m guessin’.

  48. 48
    fester says:

    Matt at 3:28pm EST wrote
    I know there are terrorists who want to kill as many Americans as possible, I know these particular terrorists mostly come from the middle east, and I know it’s a real problem. But what does that have to do with Iraq, or how influential Iran is or isn’t?

    I’m not (obviously) expressing myself very effectively, but is all of this worth trillions of dollars, hundreds of thousands of lives, and all the shit we’re going through?

    Why can’t this problem be taken care of with a few Special Forces units blowing up terrorists camps when they spring up? What’s with all the “battle of civilizations” framing? The WW3 stuff?

    This is also above my pay grade but let me take a stab. First, let’s look at the general Middle East political history — almost always conquered by outsiders from the Persians to the Macedonians, to the Romans, Byzantines, Turks/Ottomans, British and French. The current maps are overwhelmingly British/French drawn from 1918 to 1970 or so. The ruling classes tend to be foreign backed minority group leaders with very little interest in democracy or at least opening up significant oppurtunities within the society for the ambitious. When it happens, coups and foreign interventions intercede.

    A lot of terrorism occurs as a result of a stifled internal political discourse. Any dissent provokes repression, might as well go for as much bang for the buck as possible. However most opposition groups that engage/d in terrorism against Arab governments got crushed. So we get a split — the Hezbollah model of partial integration into a state apparatus of Lebanon where it casts itself as the natural defender of a group against outside threats, and then the Al-Quaida prescription.

    Bin Laden’s strategic insight evolved over several years in the late 80s and early 90s when he saw two things. First, the Afghan resistance was able to wear out the Russians with significant US and Saudi financial backing, and secondly, he saw the Egyptian government effectively crush Egyptian Jihad with the support of US financing, technical assistance, weapons and diplomatic cover. He saw that in his minds legitimate Sunni Arab opposition to corrupt and unfaithful Arab leadership could not be successful because those corrupt leaders received overwhelming support from the United States.

    Therefore he advocated that the ‘near battle’ against the Saudi government and other corrupt Arab regimes would be futile unless the ‘far battle’ against US and other Western interests were also successfully and aggressively fought.

    From this insight, Al-Quaida has engaged in a fifteen year campaign to inflict high enough costs on the United States to isolate the Saudi and other Arab regimes in order for there to be a chance at a successful “near battle” campaign.

    T

  49. 49
    Darrell says:

    I’ll type really slow: Tim is wishing that Iraq had the capabilities to stand as a counterbalance in the region—in other words, he is wishing we had actually rebuilt the country after annihalating it.

    Well, contrary to your assertion, we have been working to rebuild the country Tom. You see, the old Iraqi army was run by Saddam’s death squad Baathists and we disbanded it. We probably could have used some of their soldiers if we had a crystal ball to pick out the “good” ones, but without such crystal ball, we would have had to take a helluva risk in doing so.. now we have second-guessers like you whining about how we didn’t rebuild Iraq’s army, when that has been a priority since the beginning. You’re so weak minded it’s pathetic.

  50. 50
    Shabbazz says:

    NOW they are in favor of siding with tyrants like Saddam because it enforces the preferrable “status quo” stalemate. Because Lord knows, you can stave off war with a tyrant forever. They never do anything bad.

    The Doublethink of the Right never ceases to amaze me.

  51. 51
    Tim F. says:

    Sherard,

    You clearly aren’t the brightest window in the house, but I’ll have a go at answering in the off chance that the logic gets through. First let’s check off that Saddam was a bad man. Very bad. And his people were very unhappy. Let me know if you’re having any trouble with this part.

    Now let’s imagine that you, Sherard, are the country of Iran. Do you care that Saddam is a bad man? No. That his people are unhappy? Maybe a ilttle. Not much. What do you care about? Among other things you probably care about Saddam’s sizable army and the fact that he hates you. Kind of puts a damper on your plans for powerbroking. Now imagine that Americans were nice enough to replace him with a leader who likes you very much. What’s more, they wrecked their own ground forces in the process. Feeling better? Of course you are. Friends are better than enemies, and client states with a significant fraction of the world’s oil reserves are even better than friends.

    I understand that it’s hard for an authoritarian like yourself, Sherard, but make an effort to see things from others’ perspective once in a while.

  52. 52
    Zifnab says:

    From this insight, Al-Quaida has engaged in a fifteen year campaign to inflict high enough costs on the United States to isolate the Saudi and other Arab regimes in order for there to be a chance at a successful “near battle” campaign.

    So then when can we expect Phase 2: Operation Overthrow the Saudi Family kick into high gear? Isn’t bin Laden of the Saudi royal family himself? Don’t they already own the country, more or less?

    And didn’t the overthrow of the Shah of Iran show just how futile US Government intervension was against a grass-roots populist insurgency? It seems like Al-Quaida would have done far better to keep bombing USS Coles and African Embassies. And even those attacks seemed detatched from the task at hand. The real focus shouldn’t be on the West – an abstract and unreachable foe if ever there was one – but on polarizing and galvenizing the immediate local populace.

  53. 53
    TenguPhule says:

    Well, contrary to your assertion, we have been working to rebuild the country Tom. You see, the old Iraqi army was run by Saddam’s death squad Baathists and we disbanded it. We probably could have used some of their soldiers if we had a crystal ball to pick out the “good” ones, but without such crystal ball, we would have had to take a helluva risk in doing so.. now we have second-guessers like you whining about how we didn’t rebuild Iraq’s army, when that has been a priority since the beginning.

    Shorter Darrell: Firing 100,000 armed and trained Iraqis wasn’t a bug, it was a feature!

    The more Darrell types, the less he knows.

  54. 54
    TenguPhule says:

    The real focus shouldn’t be on the West – an abstract and unreachable foe if ever there was one – but on polarizing and galvenizing the immediate local populace.

    Why bother when Bush does their job for them?

  55. 55
    Darrell says:

    What do you care about? Among other things, probably Saddam’s sizable army and the fact that he hates you. Kind of puts a damper on your plans for powerbroking

    American forces in Iraq now are orders of magnitude more capable than Saddam’s army at thwarting any potential Iranian military actions. From a diplomatic standpoint, yes, the Iraqi govt is more friendly to Iran than Saddam. I don’t see much evidence of Iraq being subservient to Iran, but I’ll agree that it’s possible, and Iran doesn’t like a like many of the newfound Iraqi ways including freedom of the press, voting, etc.

    I’m not sure what your point is Tim, but you seem to think you have one.

  56. 56
    Jake says:

    …now we have second-guessers like you whining about how we didn’t rebuild Iraq’s army, when that has been a priority since the beginning.

    Yep. the New Iraqi Army is a success that hasn’t happend yet. It’s a priority, like Cheney’s other priorities perhaps. Anyway, you’ve got no right to ask “What’s taking so long?” They’re going to do it and that’s almost practically exactly the same as they’ve done it. Nitpicker!

  57. 57
    Tim F. says:

    I’m not sure what your point is Tim

    Really?

    I don’t see much evidence of Iraq being subservient to Iran, but I’ll agree that it’s possible

    I think you should rewrite that last sentence to read that you might, possibly, see my point.

  58. 58
    TenguPhule says:

    American forces in Iraq now are orders of magnitude more capable than Saddam’s army at thwarting any potential Iranian military actions.

    But they can do diddly squat about Iranian economic and political action to get Iraq into Iran’s camp.

    Apples and Oranges, Darrell. If they can use the carrot while the US beats around with sticks, they’ll do it.

    and Iran doesn’t like a like many of the newfound Iraqi ways including freedom of the press, voting, etc.

    Proof? Iraq’s ‘freedom of the press’ is already a *joke* on par with Iran’s. As for voting, the Iranians love it in Iraq. How else could they get their supporters into power so easily?

  59. 59
    Punchy says:

    Iran doesn’t like a like many of the newfound Iraqi ways including freedom of the press, voting, etc.

    Dear Darrell Dumbf*ck–they vote in Iran. Have for some time.

    Ok, next lie….?

  60. 60
    Darrell says:

    Anyway, you’ve got no right to ask “What’s taking so long?”

    Tom didn’t ask why it was “taking so long” to rebuild the Iraqi army, he asserted that we didn’t make the effort to rebuild it, which is a blatent lie on his part.

    As for you jake, tell us, with your “understanding” of military matters, how long should it have taken to rebuild an Iraqi army from scratch in those circumstances?

  61. 61
    TenguPhule says:

    how long should it have taken to rebuild an Iraqi army from scratch in those circumstances?

    Building an army from scratch when one was already available just goes to show how deep the hole of stupid Darrell keeps digging himself in.

  62. 62
    Darrell says:

    Dear Darrell Dumbf*ck—they vote in Iran. Have for some time.

    Just like they had “elections” under Saddam for so many years too! Newsflash dumbass – mullahs select who can and cannot run for office. Are you leftists really so fucking stupid as to believe that Iran has free and fair elections? God you’re stupid

  63. 63
    TenguPhule says:

    Are you leftists Is Darrell really so fucking stupid as to believe that Iran Iraq has free and fair elections?

    Newsflash dumbass – mullahs Militias select who can and cannot run for office.

    Fixed.

  64. 64
    Tom in Texas says:

    Tom didn’t ask why it was “taking so long” to rebuild the Iraqi army, he asserted that we didn’t make the effort to rebuild it, which is a blatent lie on his part.

    Actually Darrel what I SAID (as opposed to what you, like Sherard, like to pretend people say) was that Iraq has no defensive capabilities now — not that we didn’t try to build them, but that they don’t have them. Now it is my opinion (and it’s an opinion backed by pretty much everyone else) that we didn’t do anywhere close to enough to secure Iraq post invasion. The goal never seemed to be a priority, or we would have done it with the forces necessary to achieve said goal.

  65. 65
    Darrell says:

    Even then the Iranians made unambiguous efforts to normalize relations with the U.S., apparently in perfectly good faith

    If by “good faith” you mean “largest state sponsor of terrorism in the world”, well, sure.

  66. 66
    tBone says:

    American forces in Iraq now are orders of magnitude more capable than Saddam’s army at thwarting any potential Iranian military actions.

    So all we have to do is stay in Iraq forever. Mission accomplished!

  67. 67
    TenguPhule says:

    If by “good faith” you mean “largest state sponsor of terrorism in the world”, well, sure.

    Shorter Darrell: I refuse to admit you are correct.

  68. 68
    Tim F. says:

    If by “good faith” you mean “largest state sponsor of terrorism in the world”, well, sure.

    Darrell, you’re smarter than this. In a negotiation they offer something that we want, say giving up support for terrorists, in exchange for something they want, for example normalization of relations. If they give up their chips before sitting down then, as Condi would point out, they have a pisspoor negotiating stance.

  69. 69
    Steve says:

    American forces in Iraq now are orders of magnitude more capable than Saddam’s army at thwarting any potential Iranian military actions.

    As long as we plan to stay in Iraq forever, this is a solid point. Thing is, the right-wing argument seems to consist of two planks:

    1) Iran is our mortal enemy in the region, always has been, always will be.

    2) Worrying about whether our invasion of Iraq has improved Iran’s status in the region is silly, because that’s like saying you wish Saddam was still in power.

    Back during the Cold War, we did very little in the geopolitical arena without considering how it would affect the balance of power between us and the USSR. But somehow, even though Iran is the new Nazi Germany, we were supposed to put the blinders on in planning the Iraq war and think about nothing beyond the borders of Iraq.

    My sense, and I do know a few people who still support this war, is that a lot of wingnuts supported the invasion precisely BECAUSE they looked at a map and thought Iraq would be a great staging point for an invasion of Iran. Frankly, that at least makes coherent sense as an agenda, as opposed to invading Iraq and realizing after the fact “whoops! Guess Iran is now the undisputed regional power, shoulda thought about that!”

    All I can say is, if that’s the game plan, better follow through. Because you might think Iran would be a little intimidated by seeing the US military massed just across their border, but guess what, they don’t seem very intimidated. If we don’t attack Iran then the war was utterly counterproductive vis-a-vis Iran, and if we do, oy.

  70. 70
    Faux News says:

    Some wag has suggested that we (the USA) should keep invading countries until one of them finally greets us with dancing and flowers (as promised by the neocons). Darrell and all of his ponies seem to think that country would be Iran.

    History lesson for Darrell: I’m sure some of the Iranians did not like the USA/UK overthrow of their democratically elected government in 1953 in order to install the Shah. Just go ahead and google it.

  71. 71
    Darrell says:

    Actually Darrel what I SAID (as opposed to what you, like Sherard, like to pretend people say) was that Iraq has no defensive capabilities now

    Well, besides the fact that Iraq has much more than “no” defensive capabilities now, you did in fact say that if we had bothered to rebuild Iraq we wouldn’t have been in this mess, as if we just left the country after toppling Saddam. It’s simply not honest of you to deny that you didn’t say that Tom, or that I am mischaracterizing what you said. Here are your words verbatim.

    in other words, he is wishing we had actually rebuilt the country after annihalating it.

    That’s what you wrote Tom. I didn’t have to take anything out of context or put words in your mouth

  72. 72
    fester says:

    Zifnab — good question — and that is something that if you can answer it with a decent time frame, you can make a bloody fortune on the oil futures mark. Seeing that I am typing this response from a cheap little cafe as I am waiting for my work to upload, I have not yet made my predictive bloody fortune.

    The campaign to overthrow the Saudi Royal Family has been ongoing with its peaks and valleys. Not much has happened recently, but there have been several significant attacks against Westerners who support the Saudi military and oil extracation and export infrastructure in the past 18 months. Al-Quaida is still trying to isolate the battlefield and clamp down on the funds and means of support for the Saudi Royal Family. If I am reading their tactics correctly, there will never be a final clash, instead just a steady drip-drip-drip and delegitimization of the Saudi government.

  73. 73
    Davebo says:

    Well, contrary to your assertion, we have been working to rebuild the country Tom. You see, the old Iraqi army was run by Saddam’s death squad Baathists and we disbanded it.

    For limited time you can upgrade to Shia death squads from Bathist death squads for a mere half a trillion dollars!

    Now, what will I need to do to have you driving this clusterfuck home tonight?

    Let me go talk to my manager.

  74. 74
    Zifnab says:

    If by “good faith” you mean “pie”, well, sure.

    But Darrell doesn’t give a flying flip about Iran or the danger it presents. Sitting in his armchair, Darrell dreams of global conquest, while waxing poetic about the Reagen years when we would have crushed Iran with an Iron Fist if not for the troublesome pawns of the Ayatollah, the Democratic Party.

    Why does Darrell continue to wave the bloody shirt of 9/11 and cry “Wolf! Wolf!” “Terrorist! Terrorist!”

    He’s not after freedom or democracy or economic stability. He’s not after victory abroad or at home in the polls. He’s after the ponies.

    Iran stole our ponies, and by god we must get them back.

  75. 75
    Davebo says:

    Well, besides the fact that Iraq has much more than “no” defensive capabilities now

    Exactly. Sure they have no tanks, artillary, air force etc.

    But they’ve got da troops! And heck, they can take a cab into battle.

  76. 76
    Tim F. says:

    Regarding whether Tim thinks we should/did rebuild the Iraqi army, I think that it’s a draw. We can rebuild them all we want, sure, even give them heavy weapons, armored vehicles, whatever. No doubt Iran will be grateful for it. All the rebuilding that we accomplish is work that they don’t have to do.

    If we were confident in the forces that we were rebuilding (say, their loyalty to us versus Iran) then we’d sell them some heavy stuff. Northrop-Grumman, General Dynamics, Sikorsky could all use the business, and it’s hard to defend your country with AK’s and technicals. Think that’ll ever happen?

  77. 77
    Tom in Texas says:

    Darrell I will say it even shorter — we made a halfassed attempt to secure the country and, even today, are adopting a halfassed approach to securing the country. 150k is not enough. It never was. I am not saying we never tried. I never did say that. You misconstrued my words, as is typical. We “tried,” at a level that was virtually guaranteed to fail, and we failed.

    And when Iraq’s defensive capabilities are primarily focused on destroying the other side within their own country, I tend to characterize them as having no capability to defend themselves from foreign attack. Or do you think that Iraq could fend off an Iranian invasion tomorrow?

  78. 78
    Punchy says:

    I am mischaracterizing what you said.

    Darrell finally admitted it. Step One completed. Congrats, grasshopper.

  79. 79
    tBone says:

    Back during the Cold War, we did very little in the geopolitical arena without considering how it would affect the balance of power between us and the USSR. But somehow, even though Iran is the new Nazi Germany, we were supposed to put the blinders on in planning the Iraq war and think about nothing beyond the borders of Iraq.

    9/11 changed everything. Forethought is for pussies.

  80. 80
    Face says:

    But they’ve got da troops! And heck, they can take a cab into battle.

    PotD. Hands down. But honestly, wouldn’t they be just driving themselves if this were the situation?

  81. 81
    PeterJ says:

    Just like they had “elections” under Saddam for so many years too! Newsflash dumbass – mullahs select who can and cannot run for office. Are you leftists really so fucking stupid as to believe that Iran has free and fair elections? God you’re stupid

    I wouldn’t ever compare the elections in Iran to the ones in the US. But I wouldn’t compare them to elections in Iraq under Saddam or Cuba either. Even if mullahs select the candidates, there usually are some more reform friendy candidates.

    If your pour enough water on a stone, eventually it will erode. You can smash it with a hammer, but that usually leaves a lot of sharp pieces all over the place…

    (And as a sidenote, for instance the electoral system, the fact that you have to register to vote, problems with counting votes, and that you’re voting on a regular day makes the US elections inferior to most western European countries…)

  82. 82
    Rudi says:

    Barbaro is safe from those despicable French horse eating surrender monkeys. Our former Republicant Congress passed a law so that the Vichy Cowards cannot eat our brave US horsies.

  83. 83
    Jake says:

    Tom didn’t ask why it was “taking so long” to rebuild the Iraqi army, he asserted that we didn’t make the effort to rebuild it, which is a blatent lie on his part.

    I was paraphrasing Darrell, I know you understand paraphrasing.

    As for you jake, tell us, with your “understanding” of military matters, how long should it have taken to rebuild an Iraqi army from scratch in those circumstances?

    Nice try, full points for an attempt to change the subject and I will answer your question, once you explain this:

    …now we have second-guessers like you whining about how we didn’t rebuild Iraq’s army, when that has been a priority since the beginning.

    Come on Darrell, this should be easy for you: What does making something a priority (intent to accomplish a goal) have to do with whether or not it is actually accomplished? While we’re at it, perhaps you could explain when you think it would be appropriate to “whine,” (or sigh in a meaningful way, or drum our fingers). But if that’s too difficult, just explain the second block quote.

  84. 84
    Darrell says:

    As long as we plan to stay in Iraq forever, this is a solid point.

    We’ve spent a lot of blood and treasure in Iraq, and it makes sense to keep bases there breathing down the necks of the despots in the region. We’ve kept military bases in Japan and Germany for over 50 years. I think we’ll keep bases in Iraq for a long time too.

  85. 85
    Davebo says:

    Even if mullahs select the candidates, there usually are some more reform friendy candidates.

    And one of them was actually elected years back named Mohammad Khatami.

    He had the misfortune however of pressing the conservative mullahs for reform at the same time Dubya was adding his country to that Axxis thingy.

  86. 86
    Steve says:

    You see, the old Iraqi army was run by Saddam’s death squad Baathists and we disbanded it. We probably could have used some of their soldiers if we had a crystal ball to pick out the “good” ones, but without such crystal ball, we would have had to take a helluva risk in doing so.. now we have second-guessers like you whining about how we didn’t rebuild Iraq’s army, when that has been a priority since the beginning.

    According to Darrell, we really had no choice but to disband the Iraqi army. Let’s see if there are any other opinions out there.

    The retired American general who headed the first occupation government in Iraq says the decision to disband the Iraqi army was one of several major mistakes Washington has made in Iraq.

    The United States should also have put more more troops into Baghdad after the fall of Saddam Hussein and done a better job of winning support from the Iraqi people, Jay Garner said in a radio interview aired Wednesday.

    “I think there was a lot of thought … on how to do postwar Iraq. I just don’t think that it unfolded the way everybody expected it to unfold,” Garner told the British Broadcasting Corp.

    Iraq’s new leader wants to call some of its old army back to duty to help restore peace in his war-torn land. Disbanding that defeated force 13 months ago was a mistake made in Washington, says a U.S. Army colonel who held a pivotal role in Baghdad at the time.

    “It was because ideology ruled where reality should have,” Col. Paul F. Hughes, then strategic policy director for the U.S. occupation authority, said of last year’s decision.

    Other key players said the order came not from then-Iraq administrator L. Paul Bremer, as believed, but from top-level civilian officials at the Pentagon and that it was done without consulting U.S. military chiefs.

    With no Iraqi security forces on hand, the U.S. military was left almost alone to confront an Iraqi insurgency and crime wave that built through 2003 – fed in part by armed soldiers of the disbanded army.

    “Anyone who ever worked in any country after a losing war knows you have to do something with the old soldiers,” Hughes said. “Otherwise, they’re out of work, and they will do what people do who know how to use guns.”

    The British Prime Minister, Tony Blair, says it had been a mistake to disband the Iraqi army completely, after the fall of Saddam Hussein’s regime.

    Britain tried to stop the US disbanding the army in Iraq after the fall of Saddam Hussein’s regime, Europe Minister Geoff Hoon has said.

    In an interview with the Daily Telegraph, Mr Hoon says British ministers “lost the argument”…

    Mr Hoon, who was defence secretary at the time, said he and other members of the government tried to persuade the United States not to purge members of Saddam’s Ba’ath party from senior positions in the army.

    He told the Daily Telegraph: “We would not have disbanded the Iraqi army.

    “We were very concerned in the final stages of the conflict that the Iraqi army was a force for stability in Iraq and I think we would have preferred for that army to remain intact.”

    I think this last one is my favorite.

    Arriving at the huge Abu Ghraib North Palace for a ceremony, General Petraeus spied Walter B. Slocombe, an adviser to L. Paul Bremer III, who headed the authority. Sidling up to him, General Petraeus said that the decision to leave the soldiers without a livelihood had put American lives at risk.

    But “obviously” we had to disband the Iraqi army. Darrell knows best.

  87. 87
    Darrell says:

    If we were confident in the forces that we were rebuilding (say, their loyalty to us versus Iran) then we’d sell them some heavy stuff. Northrop-Grumman, General Dynamics, Sikorsky could all use the business, and it’s hard to defend your country with AK’s and technicals. Think that’ll ever happen?

    I think it will. At this point, giving relatively newbie troops highly sophisticated equipment risks that it will get in the hands of the insurgents.

  88. 88
    Steve says:

    We’ve spent a lot of blood and treasure in Iraq, and it makes sense to keep bases there breathing down the necks of the despots in the region. We’ve kept military bases in Japan and Germany for over 50 years. I think we’ll keep bases in Iraq for a long time too.

    Any other opinions out there?

    Gates also said there are no plans for a long-term U.S. presence: “We don’t want permanent bases in Iraq.”

  89. 89
    Punchy says:

    and it makes sense to keep bases there

    then please enlist and get your *ss over there. Put up or shut up.

  90. 90
    tBone says:

    C’mon, Steve – those high-ranking brass and political leaders obviously are disgruntled ex-employees and/or have books they’re trying to sell. Or something.

  91. 91
    tBone says:

    I think it will. At this point, giving relatively newbie troops who have been infilitrated by militias highly sophisticated equipment risks makes it virtually certain that it will get in the hands of the insurgents.

    Fixed.

  92. 92
    TenguPhule says:

    you did in fact say that if we had bothered to rebuild Iraq we wouldn’t have been in this mess, as if we just left the country after toppling Saddam

    Where as letting those contracters build crud that was never finished or got blown up or had to be rebuilt again and again due to piss poor construction is supposed to be ‘rebuilding’?

    If we’d just left, we’d have the same mess only with less taxpayer dollars sitting in war profiteer pockets.

  93. 93
    les says:

    Tim F.: Darrell, you’re smarter than this.

    Evidence??????

  94. 94
    Zifnab says:

    Gates also said there are no plans for a long-term U.S. presence: “I lied about Iran-Contra and I’m lying now, but at least I’m not as vapid and short-sighted as Rumsfeld. Count your blessings.”

    Fixed.

  95. 95
    TenguPhule says:

    I think we’ll keep bases in Iraq for a long time too.

    I agree…provided Darrell drives on the convoys to supply those bases.

  96. 96
    TenguPhule says:

    I think it will. At this point, giving relatively newbie troops highly sophisticated equipment risks that it will get in the hands of the insurgents.

    At which point Darrell ends up contradicting himself.

    Again.

  97. 97
    Punchy says:

    At this point, giving relatively newbie troops insurgents highly sophisticated equipment risks that it will get in the hands of the insurgents be used against the troops.

    Changed. Or was it?

  98. 98
    Andrew says:

    I think it will. At this point, giving relatively newbie troops highly sophisticated equipment risks that it will get in the hands of the insurgents.

    What about the troops we trained in 2004, 2005, and 2006?

    What decade or century will they be not newbie?

  99. 99
    Tsulagi says:

    C’mon, Steve – those high-ranking brass and political leaders obviously are disgruntled ex-employees and/or have books they’re trying to sell. Or something.

    Not only that, George Deutsch hasn’t had a chance yet to go over their statements to make sure they conform to the administration’s Intelligent Design.

  100. 100
    TenguPhule says:

    We’ve spent a lot of blood and treasure in Iraq, and it makes sense to keep bases there breathing down the necks of the despots in the region. in order to spend even more blood and treasure draining American strength in the region

    Fixed.

    Supplies, Darrell. The Achilles heel of forting up.

  101. 101
    Jake says:

    Gates and Pace said that they think they have assurances from the Iraqi government…

    They think they have assurances? I guess they couldn’t find a translator so they had to rely on gestures and doodles.

    Jesus Capering Christ on a handtruck.

  102. 102
    tBone says:

    Where as letting those contracters build crud that was never finished or got blown up or had to be rebuilt again and again due to piss poor construction

    Let us not forget, in some cases it was literally piss-poor construction. Or should that be “piss-full”?

  103. 103
    dreggas says:

    I think it will. At this point, giving relatively newbie troops which are made up of militias highly sophisticated equipment risks that it will get in the hands of the insurgents makes it a near certainty that they will use them against us in service to Al Sadr and iran.

  104. 104
    Jake says:

    Ah yes. The Parson’s Projects.

    Or should that be “piss-full”?

    Hey now, that isn’t human waste dripping from the walls, that’s the sweet nectar of Liberty! Or perhaps it is the broken waters that come with the birth pangs of Democracy. Or maybe someone needs to clean out the ponies’ stables.

    Anyway, it’s better to have crap dripping on your head under a duly elected government than not have crap drip on your head under a dictatorship.

  105. 105
    BadTux says:

    What would one speculate if Osama Bin Laden considers his attack on the World Trade Center a success

    Uhm, excuse me. I’m an American. I care about what’s good for America and Americans. I don’t care if Osama is jumping for joy or frowning like Dear Leader trying to say them big words like “noo-koo-lar”. Well, actually I do care that he’s capable of smiling or frowning at all, he’s supposed to be dead, but hey, handing Iraq over to the Shia ayatollahs was far more important than, like, taking out the bastard who, remember, DID attack us on 9/11 (unlike the Iraqis)?!

    As for the whiners who say “nobody could have predicted that the new government of Iraq would be pro-Iranian!” — bull****. Hell, George H.W. Bush and the Big Dick (Dick Cheney) themselves predicted it in 1992, when explaining why they didn’t send U.S. troops on to Baghdad to take out Saddam! To quote Poppy:

    Trying to eliminate Saddam, extending the ground war into an occupation of Iraq, would have violated our guideline about not changing objectives in midstream, engaging in “mission creep,” and would have incurred incalculable human and political costs. … Had we gone the invasion route, the U.S. could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land. It would have been a dramatically different — and perhaps barren — outcome.

    Maybe Daddy *does* know best, eh? As Poppy and Brent noted in their book, simple demographics mean that any democratically elected government in Iraq will be pro-Iran. Majority Shia, remember? Duh?

    As for Darrell, I’ll just quote Da Fixer for you:

    And for all you wingnut bloggers who are ‘fighting the war of ideas online’, the Chimp’s gonna do what he’s gonna do and he doesn’t need cheerleaders anymore – no one’s listening to you anyway, nobody believes your horseshit anymore. Time for you to trade keyboard for rifle. We need sharpshooters more than bullshitters.

    If you support this war and you’re not prepared to go and ‘kill some ragheads’, shut the fuck up and let us figure out a way to end it, you spineless turds.

    Word. I love shrill :-). (And for the record, Da Fixer is former Special Forces who spent some time in Afghanistan helping U.S. bombs hit folks who weren’t nice, so I’d think twice about calling him a traitor, Darrell… getting a Snake Eater pissed at you is probably more than you’re worth.)

    -BT

  106. 106
    jg says:

    Did Parsons have to give back any of the billion in tax dollars they received? I understand security issues and all that but if they didn’t deliver they shouldn’t be paid right? Or are we just going to pay twice as its all redone by someone else?

  107. 107
    Darrell says:

    Come on Darrell, this should be easy for you: What does making something a priority (intent to accomplish a goal) have to do with whether or not it is actually accomplished?

    Two words moron: Time frame. No one remotely connected with reality expected the Iraqi army to be ready to take on the world in 3 1/2 years starting from almost scratch, and yes, those who complain that we ‘haven’t tried’ to rebuild the Iraqi army are pathetic lying weasels.

    I hope this explanation clears things up for you.

  108. 108
    lard lad says:

    those who complain that we ‘haven’t tried’ to rebuild the Iraqi army are pathetic lying weasels.

    “I tried to do my homework, Mrs. Nodleman… but my pencil broked.”

  109. 109
    Jake says:

    Darrell gets quite a work out moving those goal posts.

    No one remotely connected with reality expected the Iraqi army to be ready to take on the world in 3 1/2 years starting from almost scratch, and yes, those who complain that we ‘haven’t tried’ to rebuild the Iraqi army are pathetic lying weasels.

    …now we have second-guessers like you whining about how we didn’t rebuild Iraq’s army, when that has been a priority since the beginning.

    Subtle. “Didn’t” has now become “Haven’t Tried”. Will it become, “Never intended to”? We’ll see, but for now, not quite the same thing and I think you know that. Neither is the Iraqi army expected to “take on the world.” Everything I’ve read suggests that the US plan for the Iraqi army involves an army that can defend the borders of its country. It would be pretty fucking stupid to create an army that can “take on the world” after Gulf I. Again, full points for your flawless execution of a Triple Axle “Look A Rabbit!” none for answering the question.

  110. 110
    Perry Como says:

    “It could last six days, six weeks. I doubt six months” — Donald Rumsfeld

  111. 111
    Andrei says:

    No one remotely connected with reality expected the Iraqi army to be ready to take on the world in 3 1/2 years starting from almost scratch, and yes, those who complain that we ‘haven’t tried’ to rebuild the Iraqi army are pathetic lying weasels.

    It’s amazing to me that you refuse to acknowledge the larger problem. If Iraq II is truly the epic fight of our time that also requires a long period of time to make work, why is it that the guys whom you think should be in charge refuse to ask Americans for more sacrifice in the form of higher taxes, requests for the larger population of Americans to enlist in the military putting their lives on the line so we have an overwhelming force over there to both fight and rebuild, and a more honest public discussion from our politicians about exactly what this epic battle will cost us at the end of the day? In terms of blood, sweat and tears.

  112. 112
    TenguPhule says:

    No one remotely connected with reality expected the Iraqi army to be ready to take on the world in 3 1/2 years starting from almost scratch

    To wit, only idiots like Darrell think it’s a good idea to try and build an army from scratch rather then use the one already provided.

  113. 113
    TenguPhule says:

    Two words moron: Time frame. No one remotely connected with reality expected the Iraqi army to be ready to take on the world in 3 1/2 years starting from almost scratch, and yes, those who complain that we ‘haven’t tried’ to rebuild the Iraqi army are pathetic lying weasels.

    Shorter Darrell: Stop picking on me with the facts! Quit it! Quit it! Mommy!! The mean ‘libruls’ aren’t listening to my excuses!!

  114. 114
    ThymeZone says:

    No one remotely connected with reality

    How the FUCK would you know, or be in a position to say that?

    Your team has been wrong about EVERY SINGLE FUCKING THING HAVING TO DO WITH IRAQ SINCE 1985 AND ESPECIALLY SINCE 2002 AND IN REGARD TO EVERY SINGLE ASPECT OF THIS WAR.

    Wrong. And want to pick your nose here on our time and talk about “reality?” You wouldn’t know reality if it bit you on the left nut.

  115. 115
    Rome Again says:

    Ya know I am half wondering if this wasn’t part of some grand plan. With Raw Story reporting on the moves behind the scenes and such to ratchet up a war with Iran over the past 6 years I wonder if the whole point of Iraq was to encourage the Iranians to step up and then give this admin a reason, any reason to go after them.

    All they needed was a new Pearl Harbor incident?

  116. 116
    tBone says:

    Or perhaps it is the broken waters that come with the birth pangs of Democracy.

    That must be it. I can’t wait for the ceremony when the Codpiece Commander plants the placenta tree.

  117. 117
    ThymeZone says:

    I have to run out and pick up some tacos, but if Darrell’s team says something RIGHT about Iraq while I’m gone, would somebody alert me when I get back?

    Thanks so much. I love you guys.

  118. 118
    Rome Again says:

    I think it will. At this point, giving relatively newbie troops highly sophisticated equipment risks that it will get in the hands of the insurgents.

    There ya have it, Darrell is a “New Industrial Complex Man”. Betcha can’t wait for the NWO, huh Darrell?

  119. 119
    Rome Again says:

    I have to run out and pick up some tacos

    Hard or soft?

  120. 120
    TenguPhule says:

    Hard or soft?

    Real Tacos go in hard and come out soft.

  121. 121
    Rome Again says:

    To wit, only idiots like Darrell think it’s a good idea to try and build an army from scratch rather then use the one already provided.

    I think it’s that whole experimentation thing. They just want to play war in every fathomable way possible.

  122. 122
    Rome Again says:

    Real Tacos go in hard and come out soft.

    That’s pretty graphic.

  123. 123
    Rome Again says:

    I have to run out and pick up some tacos, but if Darrell’s team says something RIGHT about Iraq while I’m gone, would somebody alert me when I get back?

    I think you’ll be waiting a long time for that, TZ.

  124. 124
    Steve says:

    Darrell Says:

    …now we have second-guessers like you whining about how we didn’t rebuild Iraq’s army, when that has been a priority since the beginning.

    Any other opinions out there?

    In fact, Iraq’s American overseers at first never planned to reassemble much of an Iraqi army. The plan was to field a 40,000-man army, one-tenth the size of the old one, only by 2006.

    “A priority.” “Since the beginning.”

    Darrell Says:

    Two words moron: Time frame. No one remotely connected with reality expected the Iraqi army to be ready to take on the world in 3 1/2 years starting from almost scratch…

    “Starting from almost scratch.” Any other opinions out there?

    “The vast majority of officers were in the previous army,” said Lt. Col. Frederick Wellman, spokesman for the U.S. command overseeing the reformation of Iraq’s security forces. “People asked us why we didn’t call back the old army,” he added. “And the answer is, well, we have.”

    The Bush administration says that, by the time Bremer’s post-invasion administration ended in June 2004, the reconstituted Iraqi army could count more than 80 percent of its officers and the majority of its enlisted men as former members of Hussein’s army. The Iraqi Defense Ministry continued open recruiting, including appeals for whole units to reenlist. An August notice in Iraq’s state-controlled al-Sabah daily newspaper, for instance, urged members of Hussein’s former transport logistics units to sign up for the new army.

    But it wasn’t a mistake to disband the army in the first place, according to Darrell. Nope, in his words, it would have been a “helluva risk” to do anything else. Makes you wonder if he watches Dick Cheney talking about Iraq, nodding along in agreement with every word.

  125. 125
    Tsulagi says:

    No one remotely connected with reality expected the Iraqi army to be ready to take on the world in 3 1/2 years

    World? How about just a tiny baby step? You know, in 3 ½ years with 300k+ ISF be able to take care of a couple of hundred nutters on a farm in the outskirts of Najaf without our doing the job for them.

    Nope, given this weekend looks like they’re not quite ready for that yet. So at this rate they’ll be standing up in which millennium?

  126. 126
    Rome Again says:

    Utopia is right around the corner!

    Or Armageddon. Whichever.

    Same difference!

  127. 127
    Rome Again says:

    But it wasn’t a mistake to disband the army in the first place, according to Darrell. Nope, in his words, it would have been a “helluva risk” to do anything else. Makes you wonder if he watches Dick Cheney talking about Iraq, nodding along in agreement with every word.

    Darrell is like a flag swaying in the wind of Bush tactics. We already knew that though, didn’t we?

  128. 128
    Rome Again says:

    I mean c’mon Rumsfeld knew damn well we supported Hussein against the Mullahs to prevent this same situation from happening.

    Shhh! Nobody’s supposed to remember that.

    Interesting timing for getting Rummy out of office right before this shit blew up, eh?

  129. 129
    Tsulagi says:

    Makes you wonder if he watches Dick Cheney talking about Iraq, nodding along in agreement with every word.

    No need to wonder. Like the rest of the 28%ers, when Cheney is on their TV, they begin drooling, eyes glaze over, and they can’t resist saying “Dick is good” over and over.

    They’ve been assimilated. Didn’t put up much resistance either to the Dick.

  130. 130
    Rome Again says:

    Iran has a lot of brothers now.

    I descend from ancient Persian royalty. I’m not real happy about going in to kill some of my distant cousins, personally.

  131. 131
    Jonathan says:

    No one remotely connected with reality expected the Iraqi army to be ready to take on the world in 3 1/2 years starting from almost scratch, and yes, those who complain that we ‘haven’t tried’ to rebuild the Iraqi army are pathetic lying weasels.

    In WWII the US inducted, trained, equipped and emplaced 16 million troops in less time than has elapsed since the invasion of Iraq. Not only that, the US fought and won a worldwide conflict in that space of time. And all this when the US population was less than half what it is today.

  132. 132
    corwin says:

    No one ever seems to get the idea that we don’t have to throw the Hail Mary pass every single down. Nuance, diplomacy and containment work. If we had started with the less outrageous countries in the ME, we might have actually had a chance at success. Instead, we’ve gone overboard with testosterone and have totally FUBAR’d Iraq, and potentially much of the rest of the region as well ,and have gained nothing in the process, losing more than 3000 soldiers, as of now, who knows how many innocent Iraqi civilians, countless billions of dollars, and our reputation is somewhere south of the sewer system. How about next time, we think a little, before electing a belligerent jerk like Bush or Cheney.

  133. 133
    Rome Again says:

    Did Parsons have to give back any of the billion in tax dollars they received? I understand security issues and all that but if they didn’t deliver they shouldn’t be paid right? Or are we just going to pay twice as its all redone by someone else?

    That does seem to be current protocol.

  134. 134
    ThymeZone says:

    I descend from ancient Persian royalty.

    “Western People Funny”

    Thiang:
    To prove we’re not barbarians
    They dress us up like savages!
    To prove we’re not barbarians
    We wear a funny skirt!
    Ah……………h!
    Wives:
    To prove we’re not barbarians
    They dress us up like savages!
    To prove we’re not barbarians
    We wear a funny skirt!
    Thiang:
    Western People Funny,
    Western People Funny,
    Western People Funny,
    Of that there is no doubt,
    They feel so sentimental
    About the Oriental,
    They always try to turn us
    Inside down down and upside out!
    Wives:
    Upside out and inside down!
    Thiang:
    To bruise and pinch our little toes-
    Our feet are cramped in leather shoes-
    They’d break if we had brittle toes,
    But now they only hurt!
    Ah……………h!
    Wives:
    To bruise and pinch our little toes
    Our feet are cramped in leather shoes,
    They’d break if we had brittle toes,
    But now they only hurt!
    Western People Funny!
    Western People Funny!
    Western People Funny!
    Too funny to be true!
    Thiang:
    They think they civilise us
    Ah…..
    Whenever they advise us
    To learn to make the same mistake
    That they are making too! ………….h!
    All:
    THEY MAKE QUITE A FEW!

    Rogers and Hammerstein, The King and I

    Is the song that inspired Al Qaeda? One has to wonder.

  135. 135
    Darrell says:

    But it wasn’t a mistake to disband the army in the first place, according to Darrell. Nope, in his words, it would have been a “helluva risk” to do anything else.

    I don’t believe it was a total mistake to disband the army. It had the benefit of helping to weed out the Baathist goons versus those who joined the Baath party just to get work, and it also enabled us to put in place a more balanced military leadership with Kurds, Shiites and Sunnis, versus all Sunni Baathists.. and besides, the Iraqi army was already to a large extent disbanded after the US toppled the government.

    I do think it’s typical leftist chickenshit sniping to criticize that complicated decision with the benefit of perfect hindsight after-the-fact using wildly simplistic characterizations as to what should have been done.

  136. 136
    ThymeZone says:

    I do think it’s typical leftist chickenshit sniping to criticize

    Your team has been fucking WRONG EVERY STEP OF THE WAY.

    Shut the fuck up.

  137. 137
    Rome Again says:

    Rogers and Hammerstein, The King and I

    Is the song that inspired Al Qaeda? One has to wonder.

    Interesting TZ, very interesting.

  138. 138
    TenguPhule says:

    and they can’t resist saying “Dick is good” over and over.

    Bad touch.

  139. 139
    Darrell says:

    In WWII the US inducted, trained, equipped and emplaced 16 million troops in less time than has elapsed since the invasion of Iraq

    Leftists don’t tend to be very bright. You provided a link to WWII training Americans, as the US has/had an established history, methods, and facilities for training and equipping soldiers, versus Iraq which is pretty much having to rebuild an army from scratch in a war torn country with a completely different command structure and different operational goals. Did that really have to be spelled out for you?

  140. 140
    ThymeZone says:

    Interesting TZ, very interesting.

    Well, if we are going to have official Iran-bashing, we should go all the way, right?

    Blame them for everything. The GOP needs a new crop of people to blame for things.

    “We are not at war with the Iranian people.” You can hear the lying speeches now, as the Iranian people are being blown to bits by our bombs later this year.

  141. 141
    Jonathan says:

    I do think it’s typical leftist chickenshit sniping to criticize that complicated decision with the benefit of perfect hindsight after-the-fact using wildly simplistic characterizations as to what should have been done.

    Is it typical leftist chickenshit sniping to point out that Donald Rumsfeld threatened to fire anyone on his planning staff who dared even mention planning for the occupation?

  142. 142
    TenguPhule says:

    I don’t believe it was a total mistake to disband the army.

    Darrell’s Belief vs Reality. Reality wins.

    It had the benefit of helping to weed out the Baathist goons versus those who joined the Baath party just to get work,

    No it didn’t, you baldfaced liar. It fired *ALL* of them.

    and it also enabled us to put in place a more balanced military leadership with Kurds, Shiites and Sunnis, versus all Sunni Baathists..

    Bullshit. It’s a army in name only riddled with militia, guerillas and uniforms that only show up to collect a paycheck.

    and besides, the Iraqi army was already to a large extent disbanded after the US toppled the government.

    Shorter Darrell: Maybe if I lie enough, they’ll believe me!

  143. 143
    Rome Again says:

    “We are not at war with the Iranian people.” You can hear the lying speeches now, as the Iranian people are being blown to bits by our bombs later this year.

    I hear ya. Appreciate the sentiment for my distant cousins.

    How were the tacos?

  144. 144
    TenguPhule says:

    Leftists don’t Darrells tend to *not* be very bright.

    Fixed.

    Keep drinking that kool-aid, Darrell.

  145. 145
    ThymeZone says:

    Iraq which is pretty much having to rebuild an army from scratch in a war torn country

    War torn? The invasion was over in less than six weeks.

    What the holy FUCK are you talking about?

    Why the FUCK do they let you post here?

    Iraq which is pretty much having to rebuild an army from scratch

    Why is that? What happened to their army?

    Why don’t you list all the things that we’ve done right in Iraq, the measures used for those claims, and the results?

    Go ahead. Make a case, you fucking piece of shit ankle biter.

  146. 146
    Darrell says:

    Is it typical leftist chickenshit sniping to point out that Donald Rumsfeld threatened to fire anyone on his planning staff who dared even mention planning for the occupation?

    yeah Jonathan, I’m sure your moonbat version is how it happened – “I’ll fire anyone who dares to plan anything regarding the occupation and rebuilding of Iraq!”

  147. 147
    ThymeZone says:

    How were the tacos?

    Quite tasty. AZ-Mex is the best Mexican food there is.

    Well, except for Mexico, of course. Heh.

  148. 148
    TenguPhule says:

    I do think it’s typical leftist chickenshit sniping to criticize that complicated decision with the benefit of perfect hindsight after-the-fact using wildly simplistic characterizations as to what should have been done.

    Shorter Darrell: Sure I’m a gutless coward who’s never been right about a single thing in Iraq, but you’re leftists! That means you’re always wrong, even when you’re right!!

    Darrell likes to lie and pretend that all of the problems were not pointed out before, during and after…and yet Bush and Cheney kept on saying everything was roses.

  149. 149
    TenguPhule says:

    I’m sure your moonbat version is how it happened

    Shorter Darrell: Poo! Poo Poo!

  150. 150
    Darrell says:

    War torn? The invasion was over in less than six weeks.

    What the holy FUCK are you talking about?

    Umm, I guess you didn’t see how Saddam and his followers set up strongholds and ammo dumps across the country blowing up buildings, markets and infrastructure daily..oh and all those Al Queda fighters in Iraq didn’t do any damage either I suppose. Another day in the ‘reality based’ community.

    Dumb as f*cking dirt you leftists are.

  151. 151
    Jonathan says:

    Leftists don’t tend to be very bright. You provided a link to WWII training Americans, as the US has/had an established history, methods, and facilities for training and equipping soldiers, versus Iraq which is pretty much having to rebuild an army from scratch in a war torn country with a completely different command structure and different operational goals. Did that really have to be spelled out for you?

    The US didn’t have anything like the facilities, equipment and personnell to induct, train and equip 16 million troops at the beginning of WWII.

    WWII was forced on the US, it was a war for which we were not prepared and in which we lost a large chunk of the Pacific fleet on the first day.

    Up until WWII the US never had a large standing army.

  152. 152
    Rome Again says:

    Quite tasty. AZ-Mex is the best Mexican food there is.

    Well, except for Mexico, of course. Heh.

    Well, I guess that means you’re gonna show me?

  153. 153
    ThymeZone says:

    Umm, I guess you didn’t see how Saddam and his followers set up strongholds and ammo dumps across the country blowing up buildings, markets and infrastructure daily..oh and all those Al Queda fighters in Iraq didn’t do any damage either I suppose. Another day in the ‘reality based’ community.

    Shorter Darrell: Since my idiotic assertion has been shown to be the fecal droppings of cattle, I will post some blather which has nothing to do with my now-absurd-looking point.

  154. 154
    Rome Again says:

    Umm, I guess you didn’t see how Saddam and his followers set up strongholds and ammo dumps across the country blowing up buildings, markets and infrastructure daily..oh and all those Al Queda fighters in Iraq didn’t do any damage either I suppose. Another day in the ‘reality based’ community.

    Dumb as f*cking dirt you leftists are.

    Somehow Shock & Awe got left out of this statement, that’s strange.

  155. 155
    Jonathan says:

    yeah Jonathan, I’m sure your moonbat version is how it happened – “I’ll fire anyone who dares to plan anything regarding the occupation and rebuilding of Iraq!”

    “The secretary of defense continued to push on us … that everything we write in our plan has to be the idea that we are going to go in, we’re going to take out the regime, and then we’re going to leave,” Scheid said. “We won’t stay.”

    Scheid said the planners continued to try “to write what was called Phase 4,” or the piece of the plan that included post-invasion operations like occupation.

    Even if the troops didn’t stay, “at least we have to plan for it,” Scheid said.

    “I remember the secretary of defense saying that he would fire the next person that said that,” Scheid said. “We would not do planning for Phase 4 operations, which would require all those additional troops that people talk about today.

    “He said we will not do that because the American public will not back us if they think we are going over there for a long war.”

    ….”In his own mind he thought we could go in and fight and take out the regime and come out. But a lot of us planners were having a real hard time with it because we were also thinking we can’t do this. Once you tear up a country you have to stay and rebuild it. It was very challenging.”

    –Brigadier General Mark Scheid, chief of the Logistics War Plans Division after 9/11

    Do you think General Scheid was lying when he made the quote above?

  156. 156
    ThymeZone says:

    Well, I guess that means you’re gonna show me?

    I’m the perfect host.

  157. 157
    Rome Again says:

    I’m the perfect host.

    Cool, I don’t have to be out my Monday, do I?

  158. 158
    TenguPhule says:

    Umm, I guess you didn’t see how Saddam and his followers set up strongholds and ammo dumps across the country blowing up buildings, markets and infrastructure daily..oh and all those Al Queda fighters in Iraq didn’t do any damage either I suppose.

    Shorter Darrell: My memory lasts about as long as a Bush-McCain snuu-snuu.

    The bombings and killings and everything going to hell didn’t happen right away, Dumbass. The guerillas were still getting established when Bremer fired the Iraqi military and sent them a gift of armed recruits with a grudge against the USA.

  159. 159
    TenguPhule says:

    I’m the perfect host.

    Four out of Five facehuggers agree.

  160. 160
    ThymeZone says:

    guess you didn’t see how US fecklessness, having invaded a country over WMDs, didn’t secure the country properly and let the conventional weapons fall into the hands of Saddam and his followers, who set up strongholds and ammo dumps across the country blowing up buildings, markets and infrastructure daily..

    Like I said, wrong at every turn. Inept in every situation. Incompetant. Clueless.

    Four years later and they still can’t get the fucking electricity on.

    Heckuva job, Darrell.

  161. 161
    The Other Andrew says:

    The worst part is that, while we’re spending time debating the pros and cons of using our own blood and treasure to set up a pro-Iranian democracy, the actual issue of terrorism is largely being ignored.

    I’m an antiwar liberal, but I’m all for aggressively taking on violent fundamentalism. (Wasting our resources on unnecessary, counterproductive wars is not the way to do this, though the vast majority of America has now figured that out.) War should always be a last resort, and it should only be carried out if Congress has exhaustively determined that there’s justification/evidence, but we need to keep a strong, smart military around, for those rare occasions when war actually is the only option. Let’s spend more on counterinsurgency training and military healthcare and less on sci-fi corporate boondoggles, mmkay?

    At the same time, we need to improve the intelligence community (more translators, anyone?) and take on terrorism with international law-enforcement measures. Strengthening the borders would also help. (Note: this should not devolve into a xenophobic fantasy about protecting white culture.) If we had an ethical, non-hypocritical foreign policy, it’d win over Middle-Eastern moderates and weaken terrorist recruiting.

    Anyway, back to Darrell’s regularly-scheduled “Why can’t you understand how right I’ve been about the war?” program…

  162. 162
    ThymeZone says:

    Cool, I don’t have to be out my Monday, do I?

    I can be flexible.

  163. 163
    Rome Again says:

    Four years later and they still can’t get the fucking electricity on.

    Water is still a problem too, isn’t it?

  164. 164
    ThymeZone says:

    Four out of Five facehuggers agree.

    Who’s holding out?

  165. 165
    Rome Again says:

    I can be flexible.

    Uhhhhhh, how flexible?

  166. 166
    TenguPhule says:

    Water is still a problem too, isn’t it?

    Yep.

    But Darrell insists that human feces in their water is good for them. Certainly better then the running water they had before the invasion. Because it tastes like *freedom* now!

  167. 167
    ThymeZone says:

    Uhhhhhh, how flexible?

    Well, I can bend over and touch your toes.

  168. 168
    Rome Again says:

    But Darrell insists that human feces in their water is good for them. Certainly better then the running water they had before the invasion. Because it tastes like freedom now!

    Thirsty Darrell?

  169. 169
    Rome Again says:

    Well, I can bend over and touch your toes.

    You CAN? I’m so proud of you! LMAO, psily

  170. 170
    ThymeZone says:

    Thirsty Darrell?

    Chuckle. We should bottle the feces-filled beverage and call it Darrell Water.

  171. 171
    Rome Again says:

    Keith Olbermann doing another Special Comment

  172. 172
    Rome Again says:

    TZ, KO is saying “Darrell is always wrong”

  173. 173
    ThymeZone says:

    Yes, it’s classic Keith. He’s fabulous.

  174. 174
    TenguPhule says:

    We should bottle the feces-filled beverage and call it Darrell Water.

    Darrellade, is it in you?

  175. 175
    Darrell says:

    The Other Andrew Says:

    The worst part is that, while we’re spending time debating the pros and cons of using our own blood and treasure to set up a pro-Iranian democracy, the actual issue of terrorism is largely being ignored.

    Ignored? I love how you libs throw out these sweeping accusations and then never justify them. Oh yeah, not training enough translators according to you = ignoring terrorism. Got it

  176. 176
    Rome Again says:

    Darrellade, is it in you?

    ROTFLMFAO. That’s hilarious.

  177. 177
    ThymeZone says:

    Darrellade, is it in you?

    Perfect. How soon can we get this into production?

    We can make millions.

    Darrellade — Iraq Freedom Water.

    Not bad, really, if you let it settle out a little before you drink it.

  178. 178
    Rome Again says:

    Not bad, really, if you let it settle out a little before you drink it.

    “Don’t make me drink that Daddy, NO, NO, don’t make me…”

  179. 179
    Jonathan says:

    “The secretary of defense continued to push on us … that everything we write in our plan has to be the idea that we are going to go in, we’re going to take out the regime, and then we’re going to leave,” Scheid said. “We won’t stay.”

    Scheid said the planners continued to try “to write what was called Phase 4,” or the piece of the plan that included post-invasion operations like occupation.

    Even if the troops didn’t stay, “at least we have to plan for it,” Scheid said.

    “I remember the secretary of defense saying that he would fire the next person that said that,” Scheid said. “We would not do planning for Phase 4 operations, which would require all those additional troops that people talk about today.

    “He said we will not do that because the American public will not back us if they think we are going over there for a long war.”

    ….”In his own mind he thought we could go in and fight and take out the regime and come out. But a lot of us planners were having a real hard time with it because we were also thinking we can’t do this. Once you tear up a country you have to stay and rebuild it. It was very challenging.”
    —Brigadier General Mark Scheid, chief of the Logistics War Plans Division after 9/11

    Do you think General Scheid was lying when he made the quote above?

  180. 180
    TenguPhule says:

    I love how you libs throw out these sweeping accusations and then never justify them.

    Darrell’s Irony of the Day(tm).

  181. 181
    Rome Again says:

    Doesn’t matter how many times you say it Jonathon, Darrell will never believe it. He’s, uh, “brainwashed”.

  182. 182
    Krista says:

    Quite tasty. AZ-Mex is the best Mexican food there is.

    Well, except for Mexico, of course. Heh.

    Feel free to ship some up to me, please and thank you. There could be some lobster in it for you.

  183. 183
    ThymeZone says:

    Feel free to ship some up to me, please and thank you. There could be some lobster in it for you.

    Mmm. ThymeZone likee lobster.

  184. 184
    Jonathan says:

    Doesn’t matter how many times you say it Jonathon, Darrell will never believe it. He’s, uh, “brainwashed”.

    I don’t mind, I mostly post for the lurkers anyway, they get the point.

  185. 185
    Rome Again says:

    Notice she said “there could be…” A caveat there, I think.

    [j/k Krista, hey, I’ll send something FL for good Live Maine, are you in Maine?]

  186. 186
    Jimmy Mack says:

    with your “understanding” of military matters, how long should it have taken to rebuild an Iraqi army from scratch in those circumstances?

    It’s a good question. I don’t think we know how long it will take. It could take 10 or 12 years. How long did it take to the same iin Western Europe after WWII? I don’t know enough the answer, but I’ll be it was quite a while.

  187. 187
    TenguPhule says:

    It’s a good question. I don’t think we know how long it will take. It could take 10 or 12 years.

    I do not think the word means what you think it means.

  188. 188
    Krista says:

    Nope. Nova Scotia.

    And TZ – We might have an idea here. What with all these great overnight delivery services, why not start a bartering service of our local specialties?

  189. 189
    Jonathan says:

    As I’ve already pointed out in this thread, Jimmy Mack, the US fielded an army of over 16 million and won a world wide conflict in less time than we’ve already spent in Iraq.

  190. 190
    Rome Again says:

    The Balloon Juice Food Exchange? That sounds great.

    Nova Scotia is even better, yummy!

  191. 191
    ThymeZone says:

    K – that is actually a great idea. I am going to guess that your NorthPolian neighbors would go absolutely gaga over real AZ Mex food. I would imagine that they have never tasted anything like it. You can’t get it east of the Continental Divide down here. The stuff that passes for Mexican food in, say, Michigan is basically sour cream and guacamole on top of whatever. Not real Mexican food, at all.

    Gringo cooks can’t make Mexican food worth a damn.

    Meanwhile, AZ is not exactly { ahem } swimming in great seafood. There is a little here and there … the El Tovar at the Grand Canyon has some of the best seafood in the world. How they get it I have no idea, they pay dearly for it, I know that. I love swordfish, and the best I have ever had, coast to coast, was at the Grand Canyon. I swear, it was otherworldly good.

  192. 192
    Rome Again says:

    Well HELL, I got swordfish. Love that stuff. Guess I can’t come visit ya now TZ, I gotta keep you in swordfish. It looks like it was destined.

    LMAO

  193. 193
    ThymeZone says:

    Well HELL, I got swordfish. Love that stuff. Guess I can’t come visit ya now TZ, I gotta keep you in swordfish

    No, you’d just have to keep me in something available here.

    I really like Almond Snickers, for example.

  194. 194
    tBone says:

    yeah Jonathan, I’m sure your moonbat version is how it happened – “I’ll fire anyone who dares to plan anything regarding the occupation and rebuilding of Iraq!”

    Jesus wept. You can lead a horse pony to water . . .

    Why don’t you just answer Jonathan’s question directly? Do you think Scheid was lying or not? Yes or no?

    Darrellade—Iraq Freedom Water.

    So that’s what was raining down from the Iraqi Police Academy ceilings!

  195. 195
    Rome Again says:

    No, you’d just have to keep me in something available here.

    I really like Almond Snickers, for example.

    k, lifetime supply sound good? I’ll run right out and get it firt thing.

  196. 196
  197. 197
    ThymeZone says:

    first, even.

    Firt was good :-)

  198. 198
    Rome Again says:

    BTW,

    I really like Almond Snickers, for example.

    I knew that! I are smart. ;)

  199. 199
    ThymeZone says:

    I also like to snicker at Darrell.

  200. 200
    Rome Again says:

    Firt was good :-)

    Caught that did ya? Oh, I’m so embarrassed now. ::blush::

  201. 201
    ThymeZone says:

    Caught that did ya?

    I really don’t know what a firt is, but I know it isn’t Leetspeak.

  202. 202
    Rome Again says:

    I really don’t know what a firt is, but I know it isn’t Leetspeak.

    I never claimed to speak Leet.

  203. 203
    Jonathan says:

    Why don’t you just answer Jonathan’s question directly? Do you think Scheid was lying or not? Yes or no?

    I’ve posted that lots of places lots of times and I have yet to get any kind of answer at all from any righty.

    I’m not expecting one from Darrell either, I just like making my point with a howitzer.

  204. 204
    demimondian says:

    Lobster? Euyeuch. Disgusting bugs that feed on excrement!

  205. 205
    Rome Again says:

    Lobster? Euyeuch. Disgusting bugs that feed on excrement!

    Something tells me you’d have a really hard time eating Maryland Blue Crab (yummy, my favorite!)

  206. 206
    ThymeZone says:

    Lobster, crab, shrimp, crayfish. Yumm.

    Catfish, yumm.

  207. 207
    Rome Again says:

    So how hard it is to get seafood there?

    Gosh TZ, I dunno, I may have to rethink this!

    [j/k]

  208. 208
    TM Cleaver says:

    Darrell says:

    Well, contrary to your assertion, we have been working to rebuild the country Tom. You see, the old Iraqi army was run by Saddam’s death squad Baathists and we disbanded it. We probably could have used some of their soldiers if we had a crystal ball to pick out the “good” ones, but without such crystal ball, we would have had to take a helluva risk in doing so.. now we have second-guessers like you whining about how we didn’t rebuild Iraq’s army, when that has been a priority since the beginning. You’re so weak minded it’s pathetic.

    Ah yes, that’s how we got an army full of Shiite death squads. The “death squad Baathists” are another object of your fevered imagination Darrell.

    BTW, Darrell, are you old enough to shave yet? Does mommy know what you’re doing with that computer down in the basement? Do you intend to join up in the Fight For Worldwide Freedom when you turn 18? I’ll bet by then they’ll be so hard-up they’ll even take halfwitted psychopaths with permanent acne and a horrific weight problem, like you, little boy. Or are you just another average far right Super Patriot/coward – like your fearless leaders Boy George and Dickhead?? Got “other priorities” do you? Want to spend your time in “all day pool volleyball parties with ambitious secretaries” right?

    I really do want to commend you for your ceaseless efforts to demonstrate what is meant by the term “failed far-right halfwit wannabee.” Why don’t you go back to LGF, where the fact you lack opposable thumbs and frontal lobes won’t be so painfully obvious?

  209. 209
    ThymeZone says:

    So how hard it is to get seafood there?

    Nothing to it. Just drop your line in the sand and wait. When they’re bitin’, just reel ’em in.

    Okay, actually …. thanks to air transportation, we get a lot of good fresh fish here. It just isn’t cheap.

  210. 210
    Rome Again says:

    It’s not cheap here, and all I have to do is go fish some out of the water.

    Speaking of prices, did I tell ya we got the highest gas prices in the country right now? Yeah, and the port is 100 miles ~~~> that way.

  211. 211
  212. 212
    tBone says:

    I’m not expecting one from Darrell either

    I don’t think you’ll be disappointed. Darrell likes to take binary questions and translate them to base-12.

  213. 213
    Jonathan says:

    I think Darrell’s spelling and grammar are too good for him to be truly as stupid as he appears from his opinions. Darrell is far better “spoken” than the Decider.

    I rather suspect Darrell is a troll.

  214. 214
    ThymeZone says:

    Darrell Goofy is far better “spoken” than the Decider.

    But, Goofy also has a higher approval rating.

  215. 215
    Bubblegum Tate says:

    Darrellade, is it in you?

    Is this what they dump on the coach who loses the Super Bowl?

  216. 216
    Tom in Texas says:

    Meanwhile, AZ is not exactly { ahem } swimming in great seafood. There is a little here and there … the El Tovar at the Grand Canyon has some of the best seafood in the world. How they get it I have no idea, they pay dearly for it, I know that. I love swordfish, and the best I have ever had, coast to coast, was at the Grand Canyon. I swear, it was otherworldly good.

    TZ, as someone who has had Mexican food in Phoenix, I have to say that I think Tex-Mex is done a litle better. Slightly spicier and heavy on the queso, Tex-Mex is comfort food for me, as well as my relatives — I have an aunt in Philadelphia who flies down four times a year, and every time she returns with pounds of Ninfa’s fajitas. The original Mama Ninfa’s, in a ward just outside downtown Houston, has the best Mexican dishes I have ever tasted.

    Another fortunate culinary side effect of Houston is that we are near enough to the coast, and are a central part of enough transit lines, that fresh seafood is never a problem. The quality can be spotty (lord knows the Gulf of Mexico isn’t the cleanest water in the world), but when it’s in season, the shrimp, crawfish, and oysters available here are spectacular.

  217. 217
    Tom in Texas says:

    And just to be clear — I am not insulting AZ Mex. You are absolutely correct in asserting that Minnesotans or Canadians (sorry Krista) have absolutely no idea what you are missing when it comes to truly good Mexican fusion. Those of you that have noticed the best cheesesteaks are in Philly or the best deep dishes in Chicago can understand the point I am making. It tastes different. Those skillets have cooked the same meat a hundred thousand times — those vegetables have been paired with that sandwich or pizza for 30 or 40 years. Every dish you have ever eaten with the same name as this one was a pale imitation — an often admirable attempt to recreate the meal before you by a chef who tasted it once and wanted to spread it worldwide.

  218. 218
    Jonathan says:

    Umm.. Source Darrellier?

  219. 219
    Rome Again says:

    The quality can be spotty (lord knows the Gulf of Mexico isn’t the cleanest water in the world), but…

    Tell me about it, we get millionaires and billionaires to spend almost half of their years here in second, third and fourth homes; and we still get 20 algae blooms a year. Red tide is a normal event around here (warning: never deliver newspapers in a red tide area, ::gag::).

  220. 220
    Rome Again says:

    Philly cheesesteaks are pretty good just outside Philly in Delaware too. I grew up on the suckers. Funny thing, when I went to Jacksonville, FL about 25 years ago, I ran into the parents of an ex-high school beau and they had opened up a place on Jax Beach called “A Little Bit of South Philly”. I worked there for a couple of summers. Great cheesesteaks, smelly kitchen.

  221. 221
    Rome Again says:

    Yeah, I guess demimondian wouldn’t like this!

    Mmmm, mmmmmm, yummmmmmmmmmy!

    Sorry demimondian, couldn’t resist.

    [waits to see if tomorrow I come back to see 50 posts of “that is absolutely gross”]

  222. 222
    jake says:

    But hey, at least Iraqi police force training was done right!

  223. 223
    ThymeZone says:

    And just to be clear—I am not insulting AZ Mex. You are absolutely correct in asserting that Minnesotans or Canadians (sorry Krista) have absolutely no idea what you are missing when it comes to truly good Mexican fusion.

    Exactly. Up where Krista lives, the Snow Cone is probably the local dish. Available year round, you can carry them in your pocket. Just grab a hunk of nearby glacier, add a little syrup. There you go.

    As for the local Mex, Tom, AZ Mex is more New Mexico and Anaheim chile than queso and fajita. It’s real New Mexico Green Chile with hot tortillas and pintos. You can’t get that in Texas, at least I haven’t seen it. And there is nothing worse than some of the godawful concoctions people plate and call green chile (chile verde). The real thing is only here in NM, and AZ, and here and there in So Cal.

  224. 224
    Punchy says:

    After reading this entire thread, I now–finally–can see why everyone hates Darrell. Used to think it was just a gang-bang/pile-on b/c he’s a righty. But his dishonesty is clear from the shit he posted here. Add me to the myriad of posters who opine that he ought be banned.

  225. 225
    Krista says:

    Exactly. Up where Krista lives, the Snow Cone is probably the local dish. Available year round, you can carry them in your pocket. Just grab a hunk of nearby glacier, add a little syrup. There you go

    You’re going to get a Snow Cone up your peehole one of these days, mister.

  226. 226
    Jonathan says:

    After reading this entire thread, I now—finally—can see why everyone hates Darrell.

    I don’t hate Darrell, in fact I find him quite amusing to toy with. What Darrell *won’t* say is far more revealing than what he does say.

  227. 227
    Zifnab says:

    I don’t hate Darrell, in fact I find him quite amusing to toy with. What Darrell won’t say is far more revealing than what he does say.

    We still can’t get him to nail down his position on pie.

  228. 228
    ThymeZone says:

    You’re going to get a Snow Cone up your peehole one of these days, mister.

    Ouch.

  229. 229
    ThymeZone says:

    What Darrell won’t say is far more revealing than what he does say.

    Word.

    He won’t say “I’m not a bigot, and here’s why I can make that claim …”

    He won’t say “I’m not a warmonger, I don’t advocate the blasting of civilian populations by aerial warfare in order to achieve political goals, and here’s why I can make that claim ….”

    He won’t say “I respect views that are different from my own, and here’s the proof ….”

    He won’t say “My team has been wrong on Iraq since 2002, and here’s what I am doing about it now ….”

    He won’t say “I will answer reasonable questions of fact and position put to me, and here is the proof ….”

    There are a lot of things the little pimple on the ass of humanity won’t say.

  230. 230
    Darrell says:

    I missed this bit of ‘wisdom’ TimF posted earlier

    Darrell, you’re smarter than this. In a negotiation they offer something that we want, say giving up support for terrorists, in exchange for something they want, for example normalization of relations. If they give up their chips before sitting down then, as Condi would point out, they have a pisspoor negotiating stance

    Let’s see, Iran has been supporting terrorism for decades, and Tim suggests that there is a realistic possibility that they would give this up in exchange for normalization of relations with the US. I mean, after years of stringing along negotiating with the Europeans and UN, I think that is such a ‘reality based’ idea. Because a country whose President openly calls for the annihilation of Israel is going to be sooo concerned about ‘normalization’ of relations with the US. Incredible how naive and gullible the typical leftist is.

  231. 231

    There are a lot of things the little pimple on the ass of humanity won’t say.

    Luckily, “I like pie!” isn’t one of them.

    Ho ho ho, bitches!

  232. 232

    Because a country whose President openly calls for the annihilation of Israel is going to be sooo concerned about ‘normalization’ of relations with the US. Incredible how naive and gullible the typical leftist is.

    I say we nuke the entire site from orbit.

    It’s the only way to be sure.

  233. 233
    Darrell says:

    But his dishonesty is clear from the shit he posted here.

    So provide us an example of this “clear” dishonesty from me on this thread. Since it’s so clear, you should have no problems.

    I’m sure it’s my ‘dishonesty’, and not the fact that I made you feel stupid and now you’re namecalling, right Punchy?

  234. 234
    Zifnab says:

    Do you or do you not enjoy pie, Darrell? Answer the god damn question.

  235. 235
    Jonathan says:

    Darrell,

    Do you think that General Scheid was lying when he said that Rumsfeld forbade his planning staff to plan for the occupation of Iraq?

  236. 236
    Jake says:

    I’m sure it’s my ‘dishonesty’, and not the fact that I made you feel stupid and now you’re namecalling, right Punchy?

    Dumb as f*cking dirt you leftists are.

    This fulfills your RDA of Irony.

  237. 237
    Jonathan says:

    Darrell,

    Fifteen of the nineteen 9/11 hijackers were Saudis and none of them were Iranians.

    Saudi money is behind setting up Wahhabist and Salafist madrassas all over the Middle East and Afghanistan.

    Bush is very good friends with Saudi royalty.

    We hear nothing about Saudi support for terrorist Salafist and Wahhabist organizations such as Al Qaeda.

    Question: Do you think this is just a coincidence?

  238. 238
    Krista says:

    Hell, he still hasn’t answered Jonathan’s question. Just for shits and giggles, though, I’ll re-post it.

    “The secretary of defense continued to push on us … that everything we write in our plan has to be the idea that we are going to go in, we’re going to take out the regime, and then we’re going to leave,” Scheid said. “We won’t stay.”

    Scheid said the planners continued to try “to write what was called Phase 4,” or the piece of the plan that included post-invasion operations like occupation.

    Even if the troops didn’t stay, “at least we have to plan for it,” Scheid said.

    “I remember the secretary of defense saying that he would fire the next person that said that,” Scheid said. “We would not do planning for Phase 4 operations, which would require all those additional troops that people talk about today.

    “He said we will not do that because the American public will not back us if they think we are going over there for a long war.”

    ….”In his own mind he thought we could go in and fight and take out the regime and come out. But a lot of us planners were having a real hard time with it because we were also thinking we can’t do this. Once you tear up a country you have to stay and rebuild it. It was very challenging.”
    —Brigadier General Mark Scheid, chief of the Logistics War Plans Division after 9/11

    Do you think General Scheid was lying when he made the quote above?

    Well, Darrell, do you? After all, you’re the one who said,

    yeah Jonathan, I’m sure your moonbat version is how it happened – “I’ll fire anyone who dares to plan anything regarding the occupation and rebuilding of Iraq!”

    So, either Jonathan was right and you were wrong, or you think that Mark Schied is a lying moonbat.

    Which is it, Darrell? He’s asked you twice now, and quite politely. So do you have the stones to respond, or are you going to try to change the subject?

  239. 239
    Rome Again says:

    Confirmed:

    Darrell does sit indeed sit around all day, wait for someone to say something and jump in. I have been studying this phenomenon and it seems to be the case every single time in the last few days.

  240. 240
  241. 241
    Rome Again says:

    Sorry, I should be more clear, Darrell waits around for someone to call him out. It’s what he lives for.

  242. 242
    tBone says:

    So do you have the stones to respond, or are you going to try to change the subject?

    No and yes. [/SATSQ]

  243. 243
    Rome Again says:

    Pie time!

    Uhhh, thought you were “busy”? Get to work, you.

  244. 244
    dreggas says:

    Darrellade, is it in you?

    Darrellade – full of shit just like Darrell

    Darrellade – now in chocolate and nut flavors

    Darrellade – now available in extra-creamy and smoothie varieties.

    Ok I’ll stop now..

  245. 245
    Rome Again says:

    ::grabbing the Pepto Bismol::

  246. 246
    ThymeZone says:

    Uhhh, thought you were “busy”? Get to work, you.

    Sorry Boss, I didn’t know you were here ….

    Heh. :-)

    I am multitasking. I have four screens going here and total control of the solar system …. no worries ….

    OOOPS! LOOK OUT!

  247. 247
    chopper says:

    Because a country whose President openly calls for the annihilation of Israel is going to be sooo concerned about ‘normalization’ of relations with the US. Incredible how naive and gullible the typical leftist is.

    1) as pointed out above, we’re quite good chums with saudi arabia which pumps as much or more money into islamist terrorism as iran. and don’t get me started on SA’s stance on the jews and israel.

    2) the president of iran is a figurehead. he wields very little power. in fact, i’d say his job isn’t to wield power but rather to draw attention away from it, which he does a very good job of.

    incredible how stupid and full of denial the typical rightist is.

  248. 248
    Darrell says:

    So, either Jonathan was right and you were wrong, or you think that Mark Schied is a lying moonbat.

    Which is it, Darrell?

    I think it’s absurd on it’s face that Rumsfeld would threaten to fire anyone who dared make a plan for rebuilding and occupying Iraq. Think for yourself for once, and consider how stupid that would be.

    Jonathan cited a comment with almost zero context, which sounds like a “he said, she said” unconfirmed story.

    Jonathan infers a context which is ridiculous.. Given that we 1) don’t know if Rumsfeld even said such a thing (he did, after all, make enemies in the Pentagon for shaking up the status quo)

    and 2) if he did, we have no context. Maybe at that stage of planning, he wanted to prioritize focus on other areas and come back later to revisit the planning in stage 4, and he snapped at someone in that context. Why not consider that (far more likely) possibility, instead of your simpleton challenge that either you believe “no” planning took place or Shied is a “lying moonbat”. It’s really so stupid and ridiculous, not to mention completely off topic, that I didn’t think I needed to respond. But apparently, you leftists really are that stupid

    Think what an idiot one would have to be in order to believe that Rumsfeld would fire anyone who suggested that planning on the occupation and rebuilding phase needed to take place. The fact that they contracted with Halliburton in advance of the war should clue you in that at least “some” planning took place regarding the occupation and rebuilding. You, on the other hand, are so naive and gullible as to believe the possibility that “no” planning whatsoever took place, and that puts you and others who believe that right in the middle of tinfoil hat-wearing territory.. as usual

    Clearly mistakes were made in the planning (what war ever went as planned?), but to suggest that there may have been no planning whatsoever.. sorry, but that makes you and anyone else who believes that possibility a moonbat squared.

    {Cue} Now’s the time where all you leftists start your namecalling and stupidass snark instead of daring to respond to the points I’m making.

  249. 249
    Jake says:

    Darrellade – now available in extra-creamy and smoothie varieties.

    Chunky Surge, Pie Avalanche and Pretty Pony Rush.

    Don’t forget to check under the cap to see if you’ve won a Mission Accomplished Flight Suit (TM) complete with Xtra Bulgee Cod Piece (TM).

  250. 250
    ThymeZone says:

    Think for yourself for once, and consider how stupid that would be.

    Funny. Why don’t you consider how colossally and inestimably stupid everything he did, every decision he made, was for six fucking years?

    The mess in Iraq is a pretty good example of his handiwork, you piefaced moron.

  251. 251
    Darrell says:

    2) the president of iran is a figurehead. he wields very little power

    Is that what they told you idiots to believe over at Dkos?

    Yeah, Ahmadinejad is just a “figurehead”, kind of like the queen of England /leftist halfwit

  252. 252
    Rome Again says:

    I am multitasking. I have four screens going here and total control of the solar system …. no worries ….

    Well, if you have total control, could you warm it up just a few degrees over Florida for a few hours? Thanks!

  253. 253
    Rome Again says:

    Is that what they told you idiots to believe over at Dkos?

    Guess Darrell’s never heard of the “Aye-a-told-ya”.

  254. 254
    Rome Again says:

    I think it’s absurd on it’s face that Rumsfeld would threaten to fire anyone who dared make a plan for rebuilding and occupying Iraq. Think for yourself for once, and consider how stupid that would be.

    Houston, we have a problem!

  255. 255
    dreggas says:

    I think it’s absurd on it’s face that Rumsfeld would threaten to fire anyone who dared make a plan for rebuilding and occupying Iraq. Think for yourself for once, and consider how stupid that would be.

    This from someone who spouts absurdity daily. Of course what our resident special ed case (Darrell aka Short Bus) fails to mention is that Rumsfeld said quite clearly there would be no occupation, Bush assured everyone there would be no occupation and we weren’t going to be there long enough to be considered occupiers. Couple that with the oil paying for everything and the fact that most of the reconstruction was handed to private firms vs. being done by the Corps of Engineers or anyone else.

    Of course that all went down the Memory hole long ago since the modus operandi of the true bush supporter is forget what was said yesterday (or for that matter promised) and drink the kool-aid handed to you today.

    I know Americans tend to have short memories and it is a stereotype that needs to be dispelled but it won’t be until there are fewer Darrell’s to point to for reference.

  256. 256
    Rome Again says:

    ::hands Darrell a copy of George Orwell’s 1984::

    Darrell, according to you, everything changed on 9/11, perhaps you need to bone up on this book now to see what those changes created?

  257. 257
    tBone says:

    {Cue} Now’s the time where all you leftists start your namecalling and stupidass snark instead of daring to respond to the points I’m making.

    You were asked a simple yes/no question and you responded with 6 paragraphs of your trademark bullshit evasions, goalpost-shifting, and jackalope releases. Namecalling and stupidass snark is all you deserve. On that note, why don’t you go eat some pie and ride a pony, Senator Shortbus?

  258. 258
    Jake says:

    {Cue} Now’s the time where all you leftists start your namecalling and stupidass snark instead of daring to respond to the points I’m making.

    This leftist will provide a link to the original story, give you a chance to read it and amend your comments if you feel the need.

  259. 259
    Rome Again says:

    Couple that with the oil paying for everything and the fact that most of the reconstruction was handed to private firms vs. being done by the Corps of Engineers or anyone else.

    Darrell believes it’s wrong for Latinos to come here and take American jobs, but he apparently sees no problem with foreigners (American Contractors) going to Iraq and taking what should have been Iraqi jobs.

  260. 260
    Tim F. says:

    Darrell, let’s clarify that I don’t think that you’re stupid. Sadly I don’t think that you’re honest either. For example:

    Let’s see, Iran has been supporting terrorism for decades, and Tim suggests that there is a realistic possibility that they would give this up in exchange for normalization of relations with the US. I mean, after years of negotiating with the Europeans and UN, I think that is such a ‘reality based’ idea.

    Negotiating with the west means little as the US remains staunchly opposed. If Iran just wants friends then it can go on dealing with the Chinese and the Russians. As far as the west is concerned the US is the primary agent that Iran wants and needs to deal with.

    Because a country whose President openly calls for the annihilation of Israel is going to be sooo concerned about ‘normalization’ of relations with the US.

    Are you aware of who the president of Iran was at the time that they made diplomatic offers? This kind of factual error is usually beneath you.

  261. 261
    Darrell says:

    You were asked a simple yes/no question

    Asshole, it wasn’t a simple “yes/no question” as you say, it was an either/or question, kind of like “do you beat your wife every night, or just on weekends?”

    But because you’re an asshole, you’ll never admit I was right.

  262. 262
    Tim F. says:

    Case in point:

    I think it’s absurd on it’s face that Rumsfeld would threaten to fire anyone who dared make a plan for rebuilding and occupying Iraq.

    Appeal to incredulity, followed by the usual string of ad hominems. I think you understand enough about argument to know that your comment was utterly meaningless.

  263. 263
    Rome Again says:

    Asshole, it wasn’t a simple “yes/no question” as you say, it was an either/or question, kind of like “do you beat your wife every night, or just on weekends?”

    Just because your answer would put you in a bad light doesn’t qualify as it being a “when did you stop beating your wife” question. It was indeed a yes/no question Darrell.

  264. 264
    Darrell says:

    Are you aware of who the president of Iran was at the time that they made diplomatic offers?

    You have suggested, naively and gullibly, that the Iranians have offered to negotiate in “good faith” with us. Does it matter who was the Iranian president at the time of any particular offer of “diplomacy” from Iran?

  265. 265
    ThymeZone says:

    “do you beat your wife every night, or just on weekends?”

    Well, which is it?

  266. 266
    Darrell says:

    Appeal to incredulity, followed by the usual

    Tim, do you believe, as do so many other leftists here, that it’s possible that Rumsfeld threatened to fire anyone who dared suggest that any planning take place after toppling Saddam’s regime? Because that was the idiocy I was responding to, and I want to know if you think their belief was reality-based.

  267. 267
    Tim F. says:

    Does it matter who was the Iranian president at the time of any particular offer of “diplomacy” from Iran?

    Don’t deny what you said, Darrell. Dishonest. tsk. Let’s go to the tape:

    Because a country whose President openly calls for the annihilation of Israel is going to be sooo concerned about ‘normalization’ of relations with the US.

    Remind me which Iranian president openly called for the destruction of Israel. Was it Khatami? No, I don’t think it was. You used president Ahmadinejad’s populist bombast as your primary evidence that Iran wasn’t interested in good faith negotiations even though he wasn’t president yet.

  268. 268
    ThymeZone says:

    So we are back to the basic Darrell Doctrine.

    There is no point in negotiating with countries we don’t like. Therefore, war with them is the only answer.

    In order to have the advantage in these wars, we can’t wait for them to actually pose a threat. We need to strike before there is a threat.

    Therefore, continuous war with incorrigible nations is the new Peace. This is now called Darrell Peace. We will always be at war with EastAsia, and anyone who dares question this policy will be deemed a “leftist” and “scum” in the new DarrellSpeak.

  269. 269
    Zifnab says:

    Yeah, Ahmadinejad is just a “figurehead”, kind of like the queen of England /leftist halfwit

    And I don’t see why he feels the need to insult the Queen of England, much less insult her for her political leanings. Seriously, Darrell, don’t you have any respect for foreign cultures?

  270. 270
    Tim F. says:

    Tim, do you believe, as do so many other leftists here, that it’s possible that Rumsfeld threatened to fire anyone who dared suggest that any planning take place after toppling Saddam’s regime?

    I believe that you have a habit of disbelieving things that you don’t want to be true, then declaring them false because you disbelieve them and then attacking people’s character if they disagree with you. You do it so often that I think I might name it the Darrell Dodge.

  271. 271
    Rome Again says:

    Therefore, continuous war with incorrigible nations is the new Peace. This is now called Darrell Peace. We will always be at war with EastAsia, and anyone who dares question this policy will be deemed a “leftist” and “scum” in the new DarrellSpeak.

    Very astute. Yes, George Orwell must be spinning in his grave.

  272. 272
    tBone says:

    Asshole, it wasn’t a simple “yes/no question” as you say, it was an either/or question, kind of like “do you beat your wife every night, or just on weekends?”

    The question was: Do you think Scheid was lying? Yes or no?

    But because you’re an asshole, you’ll never admit I was right.

    I may be an asshole, but that wouldn’t stop me from admitting you were right. You should try being right sometime so I can prove it.

  273. 273
    Rome Again says:

    I might name it the Darrell Dodge.

    I thought it was named that all along?

  274. 274
    Darrell says:

    You used president Ahmadinejad’s populist bombast as your primary evidence that Iran wasn’t interested in good faith negotiations even though he wasn’t president yet.

    Talk about dishonest Tim, it wasn’t my “primary” evidence, it was one example. During the time of Iran’s “good faith” offer of negotiations, they were the #1 or #2 largest state supporter of terrorism in the world. That is my primary evidence that Iran isn’t/wasn’t interested in good faith negotiations, and you gullible liberals are so stupid as to attribute “good faith” motivations to such an oppressive terrorist-supporting government.

  275. 275
    dreggas says:

    Given that we 1) don’t know if Rumsfeld even said such a thing (he did, after all, make enemies in the Pentagon for shaking up the status quo)

    So you are questioning a general involved in the planning. Hmmm I smell treason. But considering Rumsfeld had publicly said there would be no occupation and that we would not be an occupying force it doesn’t suprise me to hear this after all he has to play CYA so that no one could say “well if we aren’t an occupying force then why are there plans for an occupation. Remember the sack of shit we were sold by Chalabi that there were people ready to take over once Baghdad fell…

    2) if he did, we have no context. Maybe at that stage of planning, he wanted to prioritize focus on other areas and come back later to revisit the planning in stage 4, and he snapped at someone in that context. Why not consider that (far more likely) possibility, instead of your simpleton challenge that either you believe “no” planning took place or Shied is a “lying moonbat”. It’s really so stupid and ridiculous, not to mention completely off topic, that I didn’t think I needed to respond. But apparently, you leftists really are that stupid

    It’s stupid and ridiculous that you believed so much in this you ignore the fact that the administration said we would not be an occupying force and…uh well that all changed didn’t it? 9-11 Iraq changed everything too I guess.

    Think what an idiot one would have to be in order to believe that Rumsfeld would fire anyone who suggested that planning on the occupation and rebuilding phase needed to take place.

    Shinseki – forced into early retirement for saying we needed more troops from the get go and replaced by a yes man.

    The fact that they contracted with Halliburton in advance of the war should clue you in that at least “some” planning took place regarding the occupation and rebuilding.

    The fact that they contracted with Dick Cheney’s former company as well as several others that members of the administration had vested interests in only shows that they knew who to call to make them personally rich off the war while they drained the countries coffers. If this were a standard criminal situation they would be guilty of money laundering. After all they robbed government coffers to pay companies to do absolute 0 in Iraq while those companies made record profits and their stock values climbed which increased the value of the administrations shares in the companies involved.

    You, on the other hand, are so naive and gullible as to believe the possibility that “no” planning whatsoever took place, and that puts you and others who believe that right in the middle of tinfoil hat-wearing territory.. as usual

    You on the other hand are too dense and potentially brain dead that you can’t see the forest for the trees and still believe everything the government tells you, further you probably believe the sun shines out bush’s ass.

    Clearly mistakes were made in the planning (what war ever went as planned?), but to suggest that there may have been no planning whatsoever.. sorry, but that makes you and anyone else who believes that possibility a moonbat squared.

    And no one owns up to them. Oh wait they pay lip service to owning up to them. There was no post war planning, all evidence points to this as fact. Had there been any there is the potential that things may have turned out differently. However based solely on the footage of troops standing around basically saying “what now” and the complete lack of security followed by looting showed there was no plan short of take baghdad and take down Hussein. That was the plan all along. This wasn’t about freedom or democracy or any of the other horseshit we’ve been spoon-fed the past 6 years it was about Junior’s need to impress daddy and avenge some family honor somehow because as he himself said he was pissed that Saddam remained in power and his daddy lost an election. Coupled with his quote of “I’m gonna kick his ass all over the middle east” and it’s pretty clear this was about nothing more than a spoiled shit heads ego.

  276. 276
    Darrell says:

    The question was: Do you think Scheid was lying? Yes or no?

    No it wasn’t asshole, it was a) do you think Scheid was lying? or b) Do you think rumsfeld really didn’t do any planning on the occupation/rebuilding phase of Iraq?

    Either/or, not yes or no

  277. 277
    tBone says:

    Here’s an example, Darrell – I know that this was posed to Tim, but I’ll answer it anyway:

    Tim, do you believe, as do so many other leftists here, that it’s possible that Rumsfeld threatened to fire anyone who dared suggest that any planning take place after toppling Saddam’s regime?

    Yes.

    See how easy that is? Your turn.

  278. 278
    Tim F. says:

    Talk about dishonest Tim, it wasn’t my “primary” evidence, it was one example.

    Excellent! You didn’t exactly admit to being wrong, but we’ll chalk it up as progress anyhow.

    During the time of Iran’s “good faith” offer of negotiations, they were the #1 or #2 largest state supporter of terrorism in the world. That is my primary evidence that Iran isn’t/wasn’t interested in good faith negotiations

    Once again you claim that “good faith” means that the other guy has to hand over his chips before sitting down. As you no doubt know that makes not a whit of sense.

  279. 279
    tBone says:

    No it wasn’t asshole, it was a) do you think Scheid was lying? or b) Do you think rumsfeld really didn’t do any planning on the occupation/rebuilding phase of Iraq?

    Either/or, not yes or no

    Head . . . hurting. Brick wall . . . bloody.

  280. 280
    ThymeZone says:

    Once again you claim that “good faith” means that the other guy has to hand over his chips before sitting down

    It’s Darrellplomacy.

  281. 281
    ThymeZone says:

    Darrell has no concept … whatever … of the relationship between the public statements of leaders, and the private statements between leaders.

    He thinks that it’s all about the former, whereas the world actually operates on the latter.

    If the world is left with the former, you might as well burn the whole fucking thing down now, game over.

    Darrell will learn this down the road when he reads his first actual book.

  282. 282
    ThymeZone says:

    Darrell will learn this down the road when he reads his first actual book.

    Which will be after the GW Bush Library is opened, and they announce which book they will put on its shelf.

  283. 283
    Rome Again says:

    Which will be after the GW Bush Library is opened, and they announce which book they will put on its shelf.

    Somehow I get the feeling George Orwell’s works won’t be in that library.

  284. 284
    Darrell says:

    Once again you claim that “good faith” means that the other guy has to hand over his chips before sitting down.

    I think the possibility of Iran acting in good faith now, and at the time of their offer, is nil. I think the possibility that they would abandon their support of terrorism is also nil. And I believe you and others who believe Iran would have in any way abandoned their support for terrorism (without having a gun pointed to their head) demonstrates how gullible and naive you truly are.

  285. 285
    Zifnab says:

    Tim, do you believe, as do so many other leftists here, that it’s possible that Rumsfeld threatened to fire anyone who dared suggest that any planning take place after toppling Saddam’s regime? Because that was the idiocy I was responding to, and I want to know if you think their belief was reality-based.

    Wait, we’ve got a direct quote from Brig. Gen. Mark E. Scheid that Rumsfeld had said “he would fire the next person” who talked about the need for a postwar plan.

    Then, we’ve got Retired Marine Lieutenant General Gregory Newbold saying “The consequence of the military’s quiescence was that a fundamentally flawed plan was executed for an invented war.”

    Then of course, there’s a general disrespect for the military:

    JIM LEHRER: As you know, Secretary Rumsfeld has said from the beginning every time the military asked for more troops in Iraq, they were given what they wanted. Not true in your case?

    MAJ. GEN. JOHN BATISTE: I suspect, going way back five years to the beginning of this whole war, there were ample times when people said to him, as General Shinseki did, “We need more.” In the case of General Shinseki, he was retired early. And as I recall, the secretary didn’t even go to his retirement ceremony; I have never forgotten that.

    So did the entire US Army have it out for Rumsfeld? Or was someone perhaps telling the truth?

  286. 286
    Darrell says:

    Tim, do you similarly believe it’s possible to negotiate with Al queda on dropping terrorism using diplomacy with no military action? I’m trying to see just how out-there you really are.

  287. 287
    Tim F. says:

    I think the possibility of Iran acting in good faith now, and at the time of their offer, is nil. I think the possibility that they would abandon their support of terrorism is also nil. And I believe you and others who believe Iran would have in any way abandoned their support for terrorism (without having a gun pointed to their head) demonstrates how gullible and naive you truly are.

    Amazing. It’s as if you have never heard of circular reasoning before. You’re like something that walked out of a presocratic time capsule.

  288. 288
    Tim F. says:

    Tim, do you similarly believe it’s possible to negotiate with Al queda on dropping terrorism using diplomacy with no military action?

    It seems difficult to negotiate with a group that never offers to negotiate. Do you have any good questions, or are they all retarded?

  289. 289
    Tim F. says:

    Correction, al Qaeda once made a Braveheart style negotiation “offer” that basically amounted to them not shooting at us while we packed up and left. Of course they tried the same trick with the Russians, who accepted and then got slaughtered. So no, I wouldn’t put too much stock in al Qaeda’s diplomatic corps.

  290. 290
    TenguPhule says:

    You have suggested, naively and gullibly, that the Iranians have offered to negotiate in “good faith” with us. Does it matter who was the Iranian president at the time of any particular offer of “diplomacy” from Iran?

    Shorter Darrell: I don’t know. Stop bothering me with reality.

  291. 291
    Jake says:

    It’s Darrellplomacy.

    A favoured method of negotiations in Darrelltopia, that strange and oft times confusing land. For example, in Darrelltopia there is no difference between an apple and an orange:

    do you similarly believe it’s possible to negotiate with Al queda on dropping terrorism using diplomacy with no military action?

  292. 292
    Jonathan says:

    and you gullible liberals are so stupid as to attribute “good faith” motivations to such an oppressive terrorist-supporting government.

    Saudi Arabia is one of the major terrorist supporting countries in the world. I posted a picture of the Decider kissing a Saudi royal.

    How come the Decider kisses Saudi royals and will not even speak to the Iranians?

    Saudi Arabia is even more oppressive than is Iran.

    Saudi religious police will not allow girls to exit a burning building because they are inadequately dressed.

    Saudi Arabia’s religious police stopped schoolgirls from leaving a blazing building because they were not wearing correct Islamic dress, according to Saudi newspapers.

    In a rare criticism of the kingdom’s powerful “mutaween” police, the Saudi media has accused them of hindering attempts to save 15 girls who died in the fire on Monday.

    About 800 pupils were inside the school in the holy city of Mecca when the tragedy occurred.

    15 girls died in the blaze and more than 50 others were injured

    According to the al-Eqtisadiah daily, firemen confronted police after they tried to keep the girls inside because they were not wearing the headscarves and abayas (black robes) required by the kingdom’s strict interpretation of Islam.

    One witness said he saw three policemen “beating young girls to prevent them from leaving the school because they were not wearing the abaya”.

    You really can’t get much more oppressive than that.

  293. 293
    Rome Again says:

    How come the Decider kisses Saudi royals and will not even speak to the Iranians?

    Because the relationship with the Saudis is such that we have more say in how they negotiate oil sales to us, whereas in Iran that is not true?

  294. 294
    TenguPhule says:

    But because you’re an asshole, you’ll never admit I was right.

    Darrell’s Irony of the Day(tm), now with twice the Darellade mandated fiber!

  295. 295
    TenguPhule says:

    do you similarly believe it’s possible to negotiate with Al queda on dropping terrorism using diplomacy with no military action?

    Shorter Darrell: Look, an obvious my little pony!

    Darrell continues to dig his hole of ‘I don’t know Jack’ deeper.

  296. 296
    tBone says:

    I know it’s fun to chase Darrell’s jackalopes, but let’s not forget that there’s still a question on the table. Darrell, do you think Scheid was lying? Acceptable answers are “yes” or “no.”

  297. 297
    Rome Again says:

    I know it’s fun to chase Darrell’s jackalopes, but let’s not forget that there’s still a question on the table. Darrell, do you think Scheid was lying? Acceptable answers are “yes” or “no.”

    I expect Darrell’s answer will be yes. The little authoritarian in him will not allow him to think otherwise.

  298. 298
    TenguPhule says:

    Let’s see, Iran has been supporting terrorism for decades, and Tim suggests that there is a realistic possibility that they would give this up in exchange for normalization of relations with the US.

    Shorter Darrell: We will always be at war with EastAsia.

    Because we all know that if you assassinate foreign leaders, launch coups against unfriendly regimes and smuggle weapons to South American Contras that you’ll never change your terrorist ways…right?

    I pity Darrell’s neighbors who have to look into his glass house.

  299. 299
    dreggas says:

    Amazing. It’s as if you have never heard of circular reasoning before. You’re like something that walked out of a presocratic time capsule.

    It’s called the midwest and which has now migrated down to the south. Don’t get me wrong not all of them are ignorant but these are the places that tend to believe the world is only 6000 years old. Of course here in California there are places like that to, just drive through the Cajon pass and into the high desert.

  300. 300
    TenguPhule says:

    I think the possibility of Iran acting in good faith now, and at the time of their offer, is nil.

    Shorter Darrell: Bomb Iran.

    I think the possibility that they would abandon their support of terrorism is also nil.

    Shorter Darrell: Bomb Iran.

    And I believe you and others who believe Iran would have in any way abandoned their support for terrorism (without having a gun pointed to their head) demonstrates how gullible and naive you truly are.

    Shorter Darrell: Negotiations are for Pussies. Real Men beat the Bitch down to get her to put out. So bomb Iran.

  301. 301
    Jonathan says:

    dreggas,

    Fully 25% of the US population believes that Jesus the Christ is returning in 2007. Fully 40% believe that the world is less than 10,000 years old.

    Lastly, 60% do not accept Darwinian evolution.

  302. 302
    Rome Again says:

    It’s called the midwest and which has now migrated down to the south. Don’t get me wrong not all of them are ignorant but these are the places that tend to believe the world is only 6000 years old. Of course here in California there are places like that to, just drive through the Cajon pass and into the high desert.

    I’m stuck in a prison such as you describe. Scary shit. The only difference is that where I am, the ones who bubbled up through the ranks of righty money-makers all gather here to sip their champagne, eat their caviar, and ride in their lear jets and million dollar boats when they’re not out on our hundreds of golf-courses.

  303. 303
    tBone says:

    I expect Darrell’s answer will be yes.

    I expect that he’ll never answer the question directly because it would require him to take a firm, unambiguous position. That’s Darrell Kryptonite.

  304. 304
    ThymeZone says:

    I pity Darrell’s neighbors who have to look into his glass house.

    The fumes coming from his outhouse are what really drives them up the wall, though.

    Whoooeeee dogies! There aren’t enough matchbooks in Texas to go near there.

  305. 305
    Rome Again says:

    I expect that he’ll never answer the question directly because it would require him to take a firm, unambiguous position. That’s Darrell Kryptonite.

    Well, yeah, I expect that too; but if he were to answer, it would have to be “yes”.

  306. 306
    Zifnab says:

    And I believe you and others who believe Iran would have in any way abandoned their support for terrorism (without having a gun pointed to their head) demonstrates how gullible and naive you truly are.

    I believe you and others who believe Iran would abandon their support for terrorism with a gun pointed at their heads demonstrats how gullible and naive you truly are.

    A country that sponsors suicide bombers is not going to be intimidated by your threats to kill them. You’ll just encourage the crazy little martyrs to make a bigger event of their deaths. Might as well shout “Stop or I’ll shoot” to a guy in a HEX vest.

  307. 307
    ThymeZone says:

    where I am, the ones who bubbled up through the ranks of righty money-makers all gather here to sip their champagne, eat their caviar, and ride in their lear jets and million dollar boats when they’re not out on our hundreds of golf-courses.

    Jesus, NMYM, you live in Kuwait?

  308. 308
    Rome Again says:

    Fully 25% of the US population believes that Jesus the Christ is returning in 2007. Fully 40% believe that the world is less than 10,000 years old.

    Lastly, 60% do not accept Darwinian evolution.

    Those are some pretty scary numbers Jonathan. The group that represents that 25% is going to get us all killed.

  309. 309
    Darrell says:

    tBone Says:

    I know it’s fun to chase Darrell’s jackalopes, but let’s not forget that there’s still a question on the table. Darrell, do you think Scheid was lying? Acceptable answers are “yes” or “no.”

    How about, as I suggested above “I don’t know”. Speaking of not answering directly, I pointed out two possibilities, all of you honorable lefties have been avoiding: Context. If Rumsfeld snapped as the general said, whas it because Rumsfeld didn’t want any planning whatsoever on the occupation and rebuilding in the phase 4, or did he want to prioritize planning on other matters. I mean, doesn’t the army corps of engineers, Halliburton’s contract give you idiots just a teeny clue, an inkling that maybe, just maybe, some planning took place for how to handle the occupation/rebuilding of Iraq?

    You don’t dare address that possibility I raised, because to do so shows how full of shit you leftists are.

  310. 310
    dreggas says:

    Jonathan Says:

    dreggas,

    Fully 25% of the US population believes that Jesus the Christ is returning in 2007. Fully 40% believe that the world is less than 10,000 years old.

    Lastly, 60% do not accept Darwinian evolution.

    I said Midwest and south as well as scattered cells in the rest of the country (Orange County CA where I live has its fair share what with TBN being here and the Crystal Cathedral as well as that whackjob down in lake forest). It’s not really isolated as of yet but you can almost bet it will be eventually and the end result will be a large section of the country talking about he who walks behind the rows…oh wait we have them already.

    The only good news, when global warming (which they deny) catches up to them they’ll get to re-enact Noah’s flood in real time considering that the middle of the country and a good portion of the south will become ocean floor.

  311. 311
    ThymeZone says:

    Fully 25% of the US population believes that Jesus the Christ is returning in 2007

    But here’s the thing: That same 25% could be convinced that the moon is made of green cheese.

    We call them The Stupid People. They have always been with us.

    { pause }

    And we appreciate them, do we not?

  312. 312
    Rome Again says:

    Jesus, NMYM, you live in Kuwait?

    Not Kuwait, but close.

  313. 313
    ThymeZone says:

    did he want to prioritize planning on other matters

    That’s right, let’s study the methods of a guy who completely fucked everything up for years.

    Maybe when he dies, we can get his brain in a jar?

    { pause }

    Or, not.

  314. 314
    Darrell says:

    I believe you and others who believe Iran would abandon their support for terrorism with a gun pointed at their heads demonstrats how gullible and naive you truly are.

    When dealing with terrorists, and Iran is definitely run by terrorists.. to believe that they will change their ways through diplomacy, without any credible threat of force, is idiocy beyond words. No surprise so many BJ leftist posters cling to that “reality based” belief. They really are that stupid.

  315. 315
    dreggas says:

    Context. If Rumsfeld snapped as the general said, whas it because Rumsfeld didn’t want any planning whatsoever on the occupation and rebuilding in the phase 4, or did he want to prioritize planning on other matters. I mean, doesn’t the army corps of engineers, Halliburton’s contract give you idiots just a teeny clue, an inkling that maybe, just maybe, some planning took place for how to handle the occupation/rebuilding of Iraq?

    He didn’t plan for any occupation, he made public statements stating exactly that, that there would be no occupation and that the country would rebuild itself. As far as the Army corps of engineers they were not used, rather Halliburton et. al. were used and they did 0 to rebuild. Of course idiots like you don’t see this because you are wearing the kool-aid goggles you proudly sport each day.

    You don’t dare address that possibility I raised, because to do so shows how full of shit you leftists are.

    It’s been addressed with factual points regarding the build up to the war and the execution of it. You refuse to see it because admitting you are wrong would be far, far too much for your feeble RWA personality to accept.

    Here’s your sign.

  316. 316
  317. 317
    Darrell says:

    Jonathan Says:

    and you gullible liberals are so stupid as to attribute “good faith” motivations to such an oppressive terrorist-supporting government.

    Saudi Arabia is one of the major terrorist supporting countries in the world.

    Unlike Iran’s leadership, Saudi leadership is fragmented under different princes, some friendly toward US interests, others hostile to it. Speaking overall, the Saudi’s can’t be trusted, but that doesn’t mean we don’t have individual allies within the ruling family. I don’t think anyone in the Bush administration has said different.

    Any other questions?

  318. 318
    Darrell says:

    He didn’t plan for any occupation, he made public statements stating exactly that, that there would be no occupation and that the country would rebuild itself

    Cite?

    And did he say Iraq “would rebuild itself” before or after he planned ahead with the Army corps of engineers and Halliburton to rebuild Iraq’s infrastructure?

  319. 319
    dreggas says:

    Any other questions?

    Just how easy is it to get a labotomy these days? Figured I might as well ask someone with experience.

  320. 320
    ThymeZone says:

    Interested in some real estate?

    I was, until I saw those prices.

    { pause }

    Now, I think I’m more interested in pie. This whole thread is making me hungry for pie.

  321. 321
    ThymeZone says:

    Just how easy is it to get a labotomy these days? Figured I might as well ask someone with experience.

    I gotta tell ya, I’m of two minds on this.

  322. 322
    tBone says:

    How about, as I suggested above “I don’t know”.

    Weasel. Just answer the damn question.

    Context. If Rumsfeld snapped as the general said, whas it because Rumsfeld didn’t want any planning whatsoever on the occupation and rebuilding in the phase 4, or did he want to prioritize planning on other matters.

    I think that Rumsfeld didn’t allow for the possibility that we would be stuck in Iraq for longer than “6 weeks . . . I doubt six months,” and therefore he didn’t view Phase 4 planning as important, and was in fact actively hostile to it. There’s been plenty of evidence of that presented on this thread, which you continue to ignore.

  323. 323
    Rome Again says:

    I gotta tell ya, I’m of two minds on this.

    ROTFLMFAO, that was awesome, TZ.

  324. 324
    Darrell says:

    I think that Rumsfeld didn’t allow for the possibility that we would be stuck in Iraq for longer than “6 weeks . . . I doubt six months,” and therefore he didn’t view Phase 4 planning as important

    Is that why he planned ahead with the army corp of engineers and halliburton?

    Further, I think you really are a dishonest sack of shit to suggest that Rumsfeld said “six weeks to six months” in any other context other than major combat operations. You are simply lying to suggest that he made the six weeks, six months prediction in any other context.

    Do you leftards really consider yourselves to be honest people? ..you’re not.

  325. 325
    Jonathan says:

    If Rumsfeld snapped as the general said, whas it because Rumsfeld didn’t want any planning whatsoever on the occupation and rebuilding in the phase 4, or did he want to prioritize planning on other matters. I mean, doesn’t the army corps of engineers, Halliburton’s contract give you idiots just a teeny clue, an inkling that maybe, just maybe, some planning took place for how to handle the occupation/rebuilding of Iraq?

    Darrell,

    Did you notice the date on the article in question?

    September 8, 2006

    If, as you suggest, Rumsfeld had first ordered his staff not to plan for the occupation and then later countermanded that order, don’t you think that General Scheid would have mentioned that in the interview?

    Instead, General Scheid said:

    “He (Rumsfeld) said we will not do that because the American public will not back us if they think we are going over there for a long war.”

    ….”In his own mind he thought we could go in and fight and take out the regime and come out. But a lot of us planners were having a real hard time with it because we were also thinking we can’t do this. Once you tear up a country you have to stay and rebuild it. It was very challenging.”

    because the American public will not back us if they think we are going over there for a long war.”

    Isn’t that exactly what is happening? The American public is not backing a long war. Rummy knew from the beginning that the only chance to get the war he wanted was to deceive the American public about the probable length of the occupation.

    As for the Halliburton contracts.

    News > Companies

    Iraq rebuilding contracts awarded

    Halliburton, Stevedoring Services of America get government contracts for early relief work.
    March 25, 2003: 4:33 PM EST
    By Mark Gongloff, CNN/Money Staff Writer

    NEW YORK (CNN/Money) – The first contracts for rebuilding post-war Iraq have been awarded, and Vice President Dick Cheney’s old employer, Halliburton Co., is one of the early winners.

    The Kellogg Brown & Root (KBR) unit of Halliburton (HAL: up $0.54 to $20.66, Research, Estimates), of which Cheney was CEO from 1995 to 2000, said late Monday that it was awarded a contract by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers to put out oil fires and make emergency repairs to Iraq’s oil infrastructure.

    President Bush Tuesday asked Congress for $489.3 million to cover the cost of repairing damage to Iraq’s oil facilities, much or all of which could go to Halliburton or its subcontractors under the terms of its contract with the Army.

    As you can see, the Halliburton contract was for repairing the oil fields and associated work, not for humanitarian purposes to help the Iraqi people.

    If you have evidence of Halliburton contracts for humanitarian work prior to the invasion of Iraq, please post the links or admit defeat.

  326. 326
    Darrell says:

    Weasel. Just answer the damn question

    Listen up fuckstick, I answered the question, but you’re too stupid to understand my reply, and too dishonest to acknowledge that I have a helluva good point.

  327. 327
    Darrell says:

    Darrell,

    Did you notice the date on the article in question?

    September 8, 2006

    Are you so fucking stupid as to repeatedly (it’s been 15+ posts you’ve made about it on multiple threads) trot out that article and your claim to realize that Scheid was involved only in the early planning of the Iraq war? He was not involved in any plans anywhere near the Sept. 2006 date as you seem to suggest.

    Yes, you really are that fucking stupid, just like 95% of the other leftists posting here.

  328. 328
    Rome Again says:

    . You refuse to see it because admitting you are wrong would be far, far too much for your feeble RWA personality to accept.

    That was my point exactly, thanks for confirming it for me, dreggas.

  329. 329
    Jake says:

    Shorter Darrell: You weren’t there so how do you know?

    In Darrelltopia the justice system does not allow for the introduction of forensic evidence. Or witness testimony, if the judge thinks the speaker is a stupidhead. However the judge is allowed to introduce as evidence his own beliefs.

  330. 330
    Jonathan says:

    Any other questions?

    To start with, you didn’t address my point about Saudi Arabia being even more repressive than Iran. Any comments about that?

    The Saudi King, Abdullah has quite a bit of power in fact.

    King Abdullah bin Abdul Aziz al-Saud (Arabic: عبد الله بن عبد العزيز آل سعود, born 1924) [2] is the King of Saudi Arabia. He succeeded the throne on August 1, 2005, following the death of his half-brother, King Fahd. As crown prince, he had previously acted as de facto regent and thus ruler of Saudi Arabia since 1995 when King Fahd was incapacitated by a major stroke. He was formally enthroned on August 3, 2005, but he inherited the title of King immediately after the death of his half-brother.[3] One of his sons, Prince Mutaib serves as a deputy commander in the Saudi National Guard.

    Abdullah also serves as Prime Minister and Commander of the Saudi National Guard. He is Chairman of the Supreme Economic Council, President of the High Council for Petroleum and Minerals, President of the King Abdulaziz Centre for National Dialogue, Chairman of the Council of Civil Service and Head of the Military Service Council.

    Given the amount of power that King Abdullah has, why does he not crack down on those funding terrorists?

  331. 331
    Darrell says:

    In Darrelltopia the justice system does not allow for the introduction of forensic evidence. Or witness testimony

    Hey, if the testimony lacks any context whatsoever, then it must mean whatever you “feel” it should mean, right?

  332. 332
    Rome Again says:

    stupidhead.

    Does not computer. ::hmmm, looking up that term in The Right Wing Speak, The Dictionary, published by Darrell, Darrell & Darrell, 2001::

    “Let’s see,… ah there it is:

    Stupidhead (stU’-pid-hed} N.
    archaic, see Peepeehead”

  333. 333
    tBone says:

    Further, I think you really are a dishonest sack of shit to suggest that Rumsfeld said “six weeks to six months” in any other context other than major combat operations. You are simply lying to suggest that he made the six weeks, six months prediction in any other context.

    All right, I’ll retract the “six weeks, six months” comments. It’s probably unfair in this context, as you suggest. See, this is called “admitting when you’re wrong.” You should try it sometime.

    The larger point stands, that the administration gave every indication that they were not anticipating a lengthy stay in Iraq. They publically stated that there was no history of ethnic strife in Iraq, that we would be greeted as liberators, that oil revenues would pay for the vast majority of the reconstruction, etc. How’d that all turn out? They must have done some excellent planning, huh?

    You still didn’t answer the question, by the way.

  334. 334
    ThymeZone says:

    ROTFLMFAO, that was awesome, TZ.

    We do what we can.

    { sprains arm while patting self on back }

    { pauses — many pauses }

    Somebody please toss me a straight line. I am jonesin’ for a straight line.

    { more pauses }

  335. 335
    tBone says:

    Listen up fuckstick, I answered the question, but you’re too stupid to understand my reply, and too dishonest to acknowledge that I have a helluva good point.

    Wow. Darrell gets cranky when he’s backed into a corner, doesn’t he? My my. Maybe some pie would help.

    Just a simple “yes” or “no,” Darrell. That’s all I’m asking for.

  336. 336
    Jonathan says:

    Are you so fucking stupid as to repeatedly (it’s been 15+ posts you’ve made about it on multiple threads) trot out that article and your claim to realize that Scheid was involved only in the early planning of the Iraq war? He was not involved in any plans anywhere near the Sept. 2006 date as you seem to suggest.

    First, personal attacks and name calling do nothing to further your argument and in fact make you appear childish. I’ve treated you politely, why can you not treat me the same way?

    Second, it is the early planning for the Iraq invasion and occupation that we are discussing. The reason I pointed out the date of the article was to show that General Scheid made those comments well after the invasion commenced.

  337. 337
    Rome Again says:

    Do you have cause for the pause TZ? Or causes for the pauses? or…

  338. 338
    Rome Again says:

    Just a simple “yes” or “no,” Darrell. That’s all I’m asking for.

    Stay within the lines, the lines are our friends.

  339. 339
    ThymeZone says:

    Do you have cause for the pause TZ?

    I’m feeling a little verklempt.

  340. 340
    Rome Again says:

    I’m feeling a little verklempt.

    Gosh TZ, I’m just speechless.

  341. 341
    tBone says:

    First, personal attacks and name calling do nothing to further your argument and in fact make you appear childish.

    That’s because you’re a dishonest fucking stupid sack of shit fuckstick Lefist whackjob. Real Americans™ call their opponents names to win arguments.

  342. 342
    ThymeZone says:

    Gosh TZ, I’m just speechless.

    Let’s pause. Pauses are awfully good.

  343. 343
    Darrell says:

    The larger point stands, that the administration gave every indication that they were not anticipating a lengthy stay in Iraq.

    First, that was not the “larger point”. The point of discussion is whether or not Rumsfeld forbade “any” planning in the occupation/rebuilding phase, a ridiculously stupid assertion.

    Second, as to the Bush administration giving “every indication” that they were not anticipating a lengthy stay, here’s what Bush himself said at the very beginning of the war:

    A campaign on the harsh terrain of the nation as large as California could be longer and more difficult than some predict and helping Iraqis achieve a united, stable and free country will require our sustained commitment.

  344. 344
    Jake says:

    Hey, if the testimony lacks any context whatsoever, then it must mean whatever you “feel” it should mean, right?

    That seems to be how things work in Darrelltopia:

    I think it’s absurd on it’s face that Rumsfeld would threaten to fire anyone who dared make a plan for rebuilding and occupying Iraq.

    You think it’s absurd. What is this thought based on? Anything but your “feelings”?

    Jonathan infers a context which is ridiculous.. Given that we 1) don’t know if Rumsfeld even said such a thing (he did, after all, make enemies in the Pentagon for shaking up the status quo)

    You imply that a Brig. Gen. would just make a up this story to get back at Rumsfeld for…something. Your basis for this thought/opinon/feeling? You can also discuss your basis for your feeling/opinion/thought that Rumsfeld’s comments are being taken out of context.

    Think what an idiot one would have to be in order to believe that Rumsfeld would fire anyone who suggested that planning on the occupation and rebuilding phase needed to take place.

    You suggest Brig. Gen Scheid is an “idiot” to believe Rumsfeld meant what he said. Why? On what do you base this implication?

    So, we have on the one hand an interview with the Brig. Gen. On the other hand your “thoughts” or “opinions” or even “feelings” that the Brig. Gen. is stupid, lying or there is some other context for Rumsfeld’s remarks. Remind us, why should we give your thoughts/feelings more weight than the article?

  345. 345
    Rome Again says:

    Let’s pause. Pauses are awfully good.

    Pausing, long and hard.

  346. 346
    Darrell says:

    You suggest Brig. Gen Scheid is an “idiot” to believe Rumsfeld meant what he said.

    Strawman alert!

  347. 347
    ThymeZone says:

    Pausing, long and hard.

    { thud }

  348. 348
    Rome Again says:

    A campaign on the harsh terrain of the nation as large as California could be longer and more difficult than some predict and helping Iraqis achieve a united, stable and free country will require our sustained commitment.

    Yeah, nice try Darrell. Why has it take FIVE FUCKING YEARS to get clean water and reliable electricity?

  349. 349
    Darrell says:

    First, personal attacks and name calling do nothing to further your argument and in fact make you appear childish.

    you’re probably right

    Zifnab Says:

    Sherad has a small penis.

    January 30th, 2007 at 3:20 pm

  350. 350
    ThymeZone says:

    Why has it take FIVE FUCKING YEARS to get clean water and reliable electricity?

    Blame it on the Bossa Nova.

  351. 351
    Rome Again says:

    Blame it on the Bossa Nova.

    Meet the new boss, same as the old boss?

  352. 352
    Darrell says:

    Why has it take FIVE FUCKING YEARS to get clean water and reliable electricity?

    Um, because Al queda and Sunni insurgents keep blowing things up, and also because Saddam hadn’t upgraded the power grid in so many years..

  353. 353
    tBone says:

    The point of discussion is whether or not Rumsfeld forbade “any” planning in the occupation/rebuilding phase, a ridiculously stupid assertion.

    OK. Do you think Scheid was lying?

  354. 354
    Darrell says:

    Why has it take FIVE FUCKING YEARS to get clean water and reliable electricity?

    Why has it been FIVE FUCKING YEARS since I’ve had a new pony?

  355. 355
    dreggas says:

    Further, I think you really are a dishonest sack of shit to suggest that Rumsfeld said “six weeks to six months” in any other context other than major combat operations. You are simply lying to suggest that he made the six weeks, six months prediction in any other context.

    Wrong here

    and here’s a direct quote from Rumsfeld:

    I can’t tell you if the use of force in Iraq today would last five days, or five weeks, or five months, but it certainly isn’t going to last any longer than that.
    Interview with Steve Croft, Infinity CBS Radio Connect, November 14, 2002 [5]

  356. 356
    Jake says:

    Strawman Jackalope alert!

    After you discuss the basis for your feelings/thoughts/opinions mentioned above, please discuss why you feel quoting something you said is a strawman.

    Gack, I’m starting to sound like a therapist.

  357. 357
    ThymeZone says:

    Lyrics for: Blame It On The Bossa Nova

    I was at a dance when he caught my eye
    Standin’ all alone lookin’ sad and shy
    We began to dance, swayin’ to and fro
    And soon I knew I’d never let him go

    Blame it on the bossa nova with its magic spell
    Blame it on the bossa nova that he did so well
    Oh, it all began with just one little dance
    But then it ended up a big romance
    Blame it on the bossa nova
    The dance of love

    (Now was it the moon?)
    No, no, the bossa nova
    (Or the stars above?)
    No, no, the bossa nova
    (Now was it the tune?)
    Yeah, yeah, the bossa nova
    (The dance of love)

    Now I’m glad to say I’m his bride to be
    And we’re gonna raise a family
    And when our kids ask how it came about
    I’m gonna say to them without a doubt

    Blame it on the bossa nova with its magic spell
    Blame it on the bossa nova that he did so well
    Oh, it all began with just one little dance
    But then it ended up a big romance
    Blame it on the bossa nova
    The dance of love

    (Now was it the moon?)
    No, no, the bossa nova
    (Or the stars above?)
    No, no, the bossa nova
    (Now was it the tune? )
    Yeah, yeah, the bossa nova
    (The dance of love)

    (Now was it the moon?)
    No, no, the bossa nova
    (Or the stars above ?)

    (Fade)

    No, no, the bossa nova

    We report, you deride.

  358. 358
    Darrell says:

    Do you think Scheid was lying?

    I don’t know. Whether or not he was, or was not, doesn’t change the validity of my point one bit.

  359. 359
    Rome Again says:

    Um, because Al queda and Sunni insurgents keep blowing things up, and also because Saddam hadn’t upgraded the power grid in so many years..

    Well, apparently we have no power or ability to upgrade anything then, what the hell are we doing there?

  360. 360
    ThymeZone says:

    Why has it been FIVE FUCKING YEARS since I’ve had a new pony?

    Because you’re playing for the wrong team, jackass.

  361. 361
    dreggas says:

    Further, I think you really are a dishonest sack of shit to suggest that Rumsfeld said “six weeks to six months” in any other context other than major combat operations. You are simply lying to suggest that he made the six weeks, six months prediction in any other context.

    More Of Rumsfeld saying 6 weeks to 6 months

    I think google really should adopt the slogan “Google: Universal cure for foot in mouth disease”

  362. 362
    Jonathan says:

    First, that was not the “larger point”. The point of discussion is whether or not Rumsfeld forbade “any” planning in the occupation/rebuilding phase, a ridiculously stupid assertion.

    If it is such a “ridiculously stupid assertion” then why did General Scheid make that assertion?

    Do you believe that General Scheid was lying?

  363. 363
    ThymeZone says:

    Well, apparently we have no power or ability to upgrade anything then, what the hell are we doing there?

    Didn’t we send Charlton Heston in there to raise his arms and bellow, “Behold, Halliburton’s Mighty Power!”

    Lotta fucking good that did, eh?

  364. 364
    tBone says:

    I don’t know. Whether or not he was, or was not, doesn’t change the validity of my point one bit.

    If it doesn’t change the validity of your point one bit, where’s the harm in answering the question? Just take your best guess. Take a stand. Give a direct yes or no answer, and I’ll quit asking.

  365. 365
    Rome Again says:

    Why has it been FIVE FUCKING YEARS since I’ve had a new pony?

    Wrong Darrell, this administration offers me enough ponies to supply a horse farm. Every time I turn around they are wrong, and becoming more wrong by the minute. I have not had to deal with a lack of “I knew they were going to do that” since this ambitious group took office.

    Perhaps you are unaware Darrell, that the day it was announced that the supreme court of my wonderful state decided to use the power of Congress to install a president, I turned to my husband and I said: “we’re in trouble now” and I have been right ever since.

  366. 366
    Rome Again says:

    Wanna teach me that dance TZ?

    ::blushes::

  367. 367
    Darrell says:

    If it is such a “ridiculously stupid assertion” then why did General Scheid make that assertion?

    We don’t know that he did. Maybe Rumsfeld had other priorities at that particular moment in time, and snapped at someone who wasn’t following his orders. I’m sorry to break this to you, but anyone who seriously believes that Rumsfeld had “no” plans or even “almost” none, is a moonbat without a lick of sense.

    As I’ve stated several times already, there is virtually no context to Scheid’s statement. Related question: did Scheid ever report to Rumsfeld? I honestly don’t know, but I’m curious to know.

  368. 368
    ThymeZone says:

    Wanna teach me that dance TZ?

    { pause } { thud }

  369. 369
    Rome Again says:

    Because you’re playing for the wrong team, jackass.

    Thank you, TZ, yes, my point exactly. Glad you said it too.

  370. 370
    Jonathan says:

    Um, because Al queda and Sunni insurgents keep blowing things up, and also because Saddam hadn’t upgraded the power grid in so many years..

    One of the reasons that General Shinseki called for “several hundred thousand troops” to invade and occupy Iraq. In order to be able to protect infrastructure that would likely come under insurgent attack.

    But Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz publically disagreed with Shinseki and forced him into early retirement.

    General Abizaid later said that Shinseki’s original estimate had been correct.

  371. 371
    ThymeZone says:

    I turned to my husband and I said: “we’re in trouble now” and I have been right ever since.

    That gives me great pause.

  372. 372
    Tom in Texas says:

    but to suggest that there may have been no planning whatsoever.. sorry, but that makes you and anyone else who believes that possibility a moonbat squared.

    OK there was a plan:

    1) Fire the Iraqis and hire outside contractors at exponentially higher prices

    2) ??????
    3) Profit!! Mission Accomplished

    Of course, the fact that our post invasion plan was guaranteed to fail, and that this was predicted by many invasion planners, is irrelevant to Darrell. In the squishy softheaded world of D’Style Conseervatism, it’s the thought that counts.

  373. 373
    Jake says:

    Why has it been FIVE FUCKING YEARS since I’ve had a new pony?

    Full credit for making me spit coffee over my keyboard.

  374. 374
    Jonathan says:

    We don’t know that he did.

    We do indeed know that General Scheid made that assertion, it’s down there in black and white.

    Brigadier General Mark Scheid, chief of the Logistics War Plans Division after 9/11, and one of the people with primary responsibility for war planning.

    Do you honestly wish to claim that the chief of Logistics War Plans Division was not reporting to Rumsfeld?

  375. 375
    tBone says:

    As I’ve stated several times already, there is virtually no context to Scheid’s statement. Related question: did Scheid ever report to Rumsfeld? I honestly don’t know, but I’m curious to know.

    Actually, there’s a lot of context to Scheid’s statement, but you’d have to actually read it to know that.

    It would also solve the mystery of whether the top logistics officer would report to the Secretary of Defense.

  376. 376
    Darrell says:

    OK there was a plan:

    1) Fire the Iraqis and hire outside contractors at exponentially higher prices

    Actually, the construction problems, including the one cited yesterday regarding sewage leaking through ceilings was a direct result of relying TOO HEAVILY on Iraqi contractors.

    Of course, the fact that our post invasion plan was guaranteed to fail, and that this was predicted by many invasion planners

    “Many” at the time? Can you cite 2 which predicted failure in March/April 2003?

    Btw, I ate at the Ninfa’s Navigation location last week. It is excellent, and one of my favs. But a couple of Ninfa’s sons (or was it her nephews?) opened up a restaurant several years back called El Tiempo, which is even better, although a bit more expensive. There’s 2 locations now. Have your aunt try the “mixta parilla” and see if she doesn’t agree. My only warning about El Tiempo is to watch it with the margaritas… they are strong as hell. Too strong really, as you can’t enjoy two of them without getting blotto-ed.

  377. 377
    ThymeZone says:

    Shorter Darrell:

    I am posting drunk.

  378. 378
    Jonathan says:

    Darrell,

    Have you come up with any non-oil related Halliburton contracts prior to the Iraq invasion yet?

  379. 379
    Darrell says:

    Do you honestly wish to claim that the chief of Logistics War Plans Division was not reporting to Rumsfeld?

    Uh no, I never said that I “wished to claim”, I only asked the question. I didn’t read that he was the “chief” of logistics war plans, I thought he might have been one of many war planners, which is why I asked whether or not he reported directly to Rumsfeld..

  380. 380
    Darrell says:

    Jonathan Says:

    Darrell,

    Have you come up with any non-oil related Halliburton contracts prior to the Iraq invasion yet?

    Well, they were the primary contractor in the Balkans reconstruction in the 1990’s on contracts not involving oil-related construction, back when the name was Kellogg. They later merged to become Halliburton, and interestingly, Halliburton spun them off just a couple of months ago as KBR, for Kellogg Brown & Root.

  381. 381
    tBone says:

    Actually, the construction problems, including the one cited yesterday regarding sewage leaking through ceilings was a direct result of relying TOO HEAVILY on Iraqi contractors.

    Who was the general contractor for the police academy project, Darrell? Was it an Iraqi firm?

  382. 382
    Tom in Texas says:

    Darrell:

    I ate at the El Tiempo Richmond last week for my birthday dinner. You are dead on about the margaritas, though it does cause one hell of a happy hour crowd.

    As for the local Mex, Tom, AZ Mex is more New Mexico and Anaheim chile than queso and fajita. It’s real New Mexico Green Chile with hot tortillas and pintos. You can’t get that in Texas, at least I haven’t seen it.

    TZ I am a big fan of the Arizona/NM style of Mexican fusion, having tried it in Santa Fe, Alberquerque, and Phoenix (as mentioned above), and I am aware that it doesn’t work quite the same way as Tex-Mex. I have also never found a place in Texas that comes close. I prefer the queso, though, and nowhere I have eaten west of El Paso or north of Dallas can cook a fajita — even Dallas can be very spotty.

    And I am not saying that everyone who disagreed with Rumsfeld’s position and was serving under him could publicly state that our current plan was destined to fail, but the list of generals who publicly disputed the plan is long. Several have been cited upthread. I feel no need to rehash those names again. Suffice it to say that not everyone was hunky dory with the plan, Darrell. They just didn’t publicly say we were going to lose utilizing it.

  383. 383
    Darrell says:

    Who was the general contractor for the police academy project, Darrell?

    Parsons was the general contractor. I believe most of their subcontractors were Iraqi.

  384. 384
    Tom in Texas says:

    The final paragraph of the above comment was directed at Darrell, if it wasn’t abundantly clear already. I clumsily interjected my comment at TZ in between.

  385. 385
    Rome Again says:

    Actually, the construction problems, including the one cited yesterday regarding sewage leaking through ceilings was a direct result of relying TOO HEAVILY on Iraqi contractors.

    You’re kidding, right? If that is true, then why did so many Iraqis accept money from the insurgents to take up arms instead? If Halliburton was paying hired help wages, that makes no sense.

    From Congressman Christopher Shays (R-CT – one of yours):

    Observation: US military commanders pointed out lives of American Soldiers and Marines could be saved if Iraqis were provided economic incentives. With jobs, young Iraqi men will have an alternative to the money insurgents offer them. US military commanders praised the Department of Defense’s Industrial Revitalization Initiative to create jobs by finding buyers for the products of Iraqi factories.

    Recommendation: Congress and the Administration should work together to support job creation for Iraqi men by ramping up the Industrial Revitalization Initiative.

    By the way, remember the American workers who were killed in Fallujah? And that contractor who went missing and was found? Ummm, why were those jobs not offered to Iraqis? Those jobs were offered to private American contractors.

  386. 386
    Jonathan says:

    Darrell,

    I think you know that I meant non-oil related Halliburton contracts *for**Iraq* before the invasion.

    BTW, I know more than most about Halliburton and Brown and Root. I used to work in the oil field down in South Louisiana about thirty years ago.

  387. 387
    benjoya says:

    they find mutual benefit in leaving each other alone since they both have a common foe, Us

    this is the kind of narcissism that enables otherwise intelligent people to believe in a saddam/al qaeda or an iran/al qaeda partnership. it’s all about us. their blood feuds of centuries, their ethnic and political struggles — means nothing cause they’re fixated on us.

  388. 388
    tBone says:

    Parsons was the general contractor. I believe most of their subcontractors were Iraqi.

    So the final responsibility for the problems would rest with . . . ?

  389. 389
    ThymeZone says:

    nowhere I have eaten west of El Paso or north of Dallas can cook a fajita—even Dallas can be very spotty.

    I can sear you up some mean fajitas, Tom.

    For really great AZ Mex, there’s Tucson, too, and Nogales. And then you can walk over the border and get some Sonora, Mexico comidas deliciosas. Over there, even the tortillas taste so much better. Must be the lard they use or something.

  390. 390
    Jake says:

    So the final responsibility for the problems would rest with . . . ?

    HINT: The contractor.

    I didn’t read that he was the “chief” of logistics war plans,

    Jesus Christ on a rusty barge.

  391. 391
    tBone says:

    HINT: The contractor.

    Hey! No hints allowed. Darrell, keep your eyes on your own paper.

  392. 392
    Tom in Texas says:

    TZ — what’s your marinade for a fajita? Italian Dressing works as a base, but the vital ingredient is citrus juice. Add some orange and/or lime juice, cut a lime or two, a few slices of orange — even pineapple juice works unbelievably well. Then chop up some onion and pepper, throw it in the bowl, and sit overnight.

  393. 393
    ThymeZone says:

    Darrell, keep your eyes on your own paper talking points.

    Heh.

  394. 394
    Darrell says:

    So the final responsibility for the problems would rest with . . . ?

    Of course the responsibility rests with the general contractor.. Parsons in that case. My point was that Tom suggested that US govt. and US contractors fired all the Iraqis, when in fact, they went out of their way to give work to them. If for no other reason, to avoid risking the lives of their own employees.

  395. 395
    Jake says:

    Hey! No hints allowed. Darrell, keep your eyes on your own paper.

    [Cringe] Sorry teacher, I didn’t think you’d get an answer to that one! [Goes to stand in the corner, but not the one we’re turning in Iraq.]

  396. 396
    Darrell says:

    marinade for a fajita?

    That’s a good suggestion on marinade. But besides the quality of meat and a decent marinade, you know what really makes the difference for good fajitas? it’s the generous slathering of melted garlic butter over them, combined with the grilled onions.

  397. 397
    Rome Again says:

    [Goes to stand in the corner, but not the one we’re turning in Iraq.]

    Two wrongs don’t make a right but three lefts do?

  398. 398
    Rome Again says:

    Darrell, are you trying to be likeable now? Is this a new approach? I don’t remember seeing it before. Hmmm, why does it make me feel so uncomfortable? Oh, I guess, perhaps because I don’t trust you in the least.

    Yeah, that’s the ticket.

  399. 399
    TenguPhule says:

    My point was that Tom suggested that US govt. and US contractors fired all the Iraqis, when in fact, they went out of their way to give work to them.

    Uh, no they didn’t. That was one Iraq’s chief complaints actually. Lots of outside contractors coming in, very little trickling down to the Iraqis themselves.

    Darrellade, it is in him.

  400. 400
    ThymeZone says:

    you know what really makes the difference for good fajitas? it’s the generous slathering of melted garlic butter over them, combined with the grilled onions.

    Not exactly. The meat has to seared at a very high temp, so that it carmelizes but doesn’t overcook and dry out. Almost nobody knows how to do this. “Very high temp” means two degrees short of starting a fire in the kitchen.

    The same for the onions, carmelized on the outside but not soggy. Very tricky. Peppers too.

    Then, good meat, good seasoning, cilantro, lime, serve very hot, still sizzling. Eat from the skillet.

    LBNL, eat them drunk.

    Wash down with Negra Modelo.

    Die happy.

    If you were a Democrat, Darrell, you’d already know these things :-)

  401. 401
    ThymeZone says:

    Two wrongs don’t make a right but three lefts do?

    Good one.

  402. 402
    Tom in Texas says:

    Grilled White Onions (NOT Red) and Bell peppers are a most important addition I agree — I’ve never understood why something so simple could be forgotten/ignored. But then, it seems they screw up all the easy stuff — I’ve ordered fajitas and been served precut grilled chicken in a corn tortilla with no cheese and green sauce. Gag.

  403. 403
    Rome Again says:

    Good one.

    Thank you. I’d take credit, but alas, I can’t. Not sure who said it, came to me by way of some guy in Colorado.

  404. 404
    tBone says:

    Of course the responsibility rests with the general contractor.. Parsons in that case.

    Progress! Halleluia, praise TZ’s Yard Guy!

    My point was that Tom suggested that US govt. and US contractors fired all the Iraqis, when in fact, they went out of their way to give work to them.

    I think “went out of their way to give work to them” is a bit of a stretch. In fact, you could argue that the opposite was true.

  405. 405
    Darrell says:

    Is this a new approach? I don’t remember

    I love good Mexican food, and Tom mentioned one of my favorite mexican restaurants the other day. That’s all.

    If Tom is still reading, I’ll make one final mex food recommendation Cyclone anaya’s. I’ve been to all 3 locations. excellent.

  406. 406
    Jake says:

    Two wrongs don’t make a right but three left^ies do?

    Tee hee. Or should it be Heh heh? I forget. TZs talk about fajitas is making me hungry while the mention of Darrellade is making me queasy.

  407. 407
    dreggas says:

    Not exactly. The meat has to seared at a very high temp, so that it carmelizes but doesn’t overcook and dry out. Almost nobody knows how to do this. “Very high temp” means two degrees short of starting a fire in the kitchen.

    The same for the onions, carmelized on the outside but not soggy. Very tricky. Peppers too.

    Then, good meat, good seasoning, cilantro, lime, serve very hot, still sizzling. Eat from the skillet.

    I recommend Cast Iron skillets, well seasoned. I have an entire set ranging from ones that are only good for cooking a single egg in up to a full on dutch oven. All inherited, not bought.

    They hang lovingly on the walls of my kitchen as I am the chef of the family and I have yet to cook anything that did not taste good in them.

    Did Taqueria style tacos with homemade carne asada last week and a fresh salsa that was roasted then pureed to perfection. Now that is good eating. Of course here in So.Cal I am spoiled by quality mexican food and there is a taco stand about an hour from me I would gladly make the trip to just to have a few of their tacos (not to mention the fact that across the street is an old spanish mission with lots of history I enjoy going to to see how much they’ve rebuilt and preserved).

  408. 408
    TenguPhule says:

    When dealing with terrorists, and Iran is definitely run by terrorists.. to believe that they will change their ways through diplomacy, without any credible threat of force, is idiocy beyond words

    Shorter Darrell: Bomb Iran.

    Darrell, when you have already shot yourself in the leg (Iraq), the correct response is not to shoot yourself in the gut (Iran).

    Unlike Europe, the USA can (or could) credibly back up diplomacy with economic and military power. Not so much now that your Dear Leader pissed it away on Iraq.

    Talking with Iran can’t hurt. A fundamental point you refuse to acknowledge and instead whack off to the thoughts of airstrikes that will solve nothing and only make things worse.

  409. 409
    Tom in Texas says:

    I’ll make one final mex food recommendation Cyclone anaya’s.

    The W. Gray location is right around the corner from me. I’ll have to check it out. Thanks for the tip.

  410. 410
    ThymeZone says:

    I’ve ordered fajitas and been served precut grilled chicken in a corn tortilla with no cheese and green sauce. Gag.

    Yuck! That’s almost as bad as “Green Chile” consisting of crummy beef things with jalapenos.

    Proper Green Chile is a delicate stew with pork, and anaheim chiles. Nectar of the gods. Never thickened with any agents. Watery in appearance. Filled with flavor.

    Eaten with flour tortillas and pintos on the side.

    And then there is the Queen dish of AZ Mex, Menudo. It’s also great in El Paso and Juarez, can you get good menudo east of the Rio Grande?

  411. 411
    TenguPhule says:

    Is that why he planned ahead with the army corp of engineers and halliburton?

    To secure and rebuild oil fields. Oops.

    Further, I think you really are a dishonest sack of shit to suggest that Rumsfeld said “six weeks to six months” in any other context other than major combat operations.

    Shorter Darrell: Even though he didn’t say it, I know what he actually meant to say and how dare you keep slapping me in the face with the truth.

  412. 412
    dreggas says:

    and anaheim chiles

    Wouldn’t make chili without them. They are plenty flavorful and a good replacement for bell peppers but are not overwhelming when it comes to spice.

    Depending on the mood I’m in depends on whether I make the chili hot or mild so the ingredients might very.

  413. 413
    Tom in Texas says:

    can you get good menudo east of the Rio Grande?

    I have no idea if what I tried was good or bad menudo, but I hated it. Next time I am out west I’ll have to try some and see if my taste buds have changed or if I just had really bad stuff.

    And I have never had green chile better than what I had in a small cafe in downtown Santa Fe.

  414. 414
    ThymeZone says:

    Darrell missed the key points of the Iraq War Show back in 2002:

    Big, scary threat! You’ll die!

    Urgent, can’t wait! No time! Gotta do it now!

    Won’t take long! Easy win, paid for with oil!

    Liberators! Flowers!

    Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, and wrong. Every fucking word of it wrong.

    Central battle in the War On Terra!

    Wrong.

    Last throes!

    Wrong.

    New Plan for Victory!

    Wrong.

    Newer Plan for Victory!

    Wrong.

    Surely we are winning!

    Wrong.

    Stay the course!

    Wrong.

    New plan for victory again!

    Wrong.

    I dunno, I see a pattern here. Hands?

  415. 415
    TenguPhule says:

    Unlike Iran’s leadership, Saudi leadership is fragmented under different princes, some friendly toward US interests, others hostile to it. Speaking overall, the Saudi’s can’t be trusted, but that doesn’t mean we don’t have individual allies within the ruling family.

    Shorter Darrell: I have no idea what the hell I’m talkinh about.

    Iran’s leadership is not fragmented? Pure bullshit. They have their different factions jockying for power. Conservative, reformist, moderates and they *were* making progress towards opening up
    until a certain idiot used ‘Axis of Evil’ and gave the conservatives at home in Iran the advantage.

  416. 416
    Rome Again says:

    I dunno, I see a pattern here. Hands?

    ::shaking my magic eight-ball:: “It is definitely so”

  417. 417
    ThymeZone says:

    La Pinata, Indio, California. World class Green Chile.

    Menudo is wonderful if good, horrible if bad.

    It has to be fresh, it has to be watery (not reduced), the meat has to be fastidiously cleaned before cooking.

    It has to be eaten with the garnish of oregano, green onions, and lemon juice. It has to be hot. Heat hot, that is.

    To die for.

  418. 418
    Rome Again says:

    To die for.

    Uhhh, TZ, ya sure you want to go there?

  419. 419
    dreggas says:

    Thymezone Says:

    I dunno, I see a pattern here. Hands?

    OOOOOOOO I know!!!! *RAISES HAND AND NEARLY LEAPS FROM CHAIR*

    They’re all wrong because they are successes that haven’t happened yet?

  420. 420
    ThymeZone says:

    Uhhh, TZ, ya sure you want to go there?

    Sorry, I meant “to dive for.”

    Local colloquialism. Heh heh.

    { pause }

  421. 421
    dreggas says:

    ThymeZone Says:

    La Pinata, Indio, California. World class Green Chile.

    Menudo is wonderful if good, horrible if bad.

    It has to be fresh, it has to be watery (not reduced), the meat has to be fastidiously cleaned before cooking.

    It has to be eaten with the garnish of oregano, green onions, and lemon juice. It has to be hot. Heat hot, that is.

    To die for.

    You know given that Menudo was a boy band this sounds rather nasty, on the flip side I never considered brains to be meat but *shrugs*

  422. 422
    ThymeZone says:

    Not brains. Tripe.

  423. 423
    dreggas says:

    ThymeZone Says:

    Not brains. Tripe.

    bah forgot what part it was, stomach,

  424. 424
    ThymeZone says:

    I don’t agree with the description of the soup as a “hangover recipe,” but this photo and text is pretty accurate about Menudo and how to eat it.

    Notice the not-dark and not-thick appearance of the sooup in this photo. That is how it should look, even lighter if it’s white menudo and not red. Both are good.

  425. 425
    Darrell says:

    ThymeZone Says:

    Darrell missed the key points of the Iraq War Show back in 2002:

    The hell I did. The key points are right f*cking here

  426. 426
    Jake says:

    I dunno, I see a pattern here. Hands?

    I think the most we can expect from Darrell is a finger.

    Please note that I refrained from making a comment about what anyone does with his hands and it wasn’t easy.
    You’re welcome.

  427. 427
    ThymeZone says:

    The hell I did. The key points are right f*cking here

    What a fucking wanker you are.

    Watch your stupid party sink into obscurity for 30 years now, thanks to the idiocy of people like you.

    Good riddance.

  428. 428
    Darrell says:

    Iran’s leadership is not fragmented? Pure bullshit. They have their different factions jockying for power.

    Name one leader in Iran who could in any way be considered supportive of or sympathetic toward US interests.. yeah, that’s what I thought TengFOOOL

  429. 429
    dreggas says:

    Watch your stupid party sink into obscurity for 30 years now, thanks to the idiocy of people like you.

    Iraq is the desert they will wander in.

  430. 430
    tBone says:

    yeah, that’s what I thought TengFOOOL

    So, after a brief bipartisan break for Mexican food appreciation, I see we’re back to the main program.

    How about that Iraq reconstruction, Darrell? Still think we went “out of our way” to give Iraqis jobs?

  431. 431
    ThymeZone says:

    Iraq is the desert they will wander in.

    That would be sooooo fitting.

  432. 432
    TenguPhule says:

    Name one leader in Iran who could in any way be considered supportive of or sympathetic toward US interests

    Shorter Darrell: Show me something Bush already destroyed!

    Because it’s not like Bush made ‘American-friendly or American-neutral’ political poison in Iran.

  433. 433
    TenguPhule says:

    The key points are right f*cking here

    Shorter Darrell: Ponies! Ponies!

  434. 434
    TenguPhule says:

    That would be sooooo fitting.

    More like a just desert.

  435. 435
    Rome Again says:

    Ah, we’re all back to hating Darrell, thank God. Normalcy I tell ya! I got skeered there for few minutes.

  436. 436
    dreggas says:

    Rome Again Says:

    Ah, we’re all back to hating Darrell, thank God. Normalcy I tell ya! I got skeered there for few minutes.

    Have to admit it was kind of weird. Kinda like watching a pro-wrestling match, one minute they hate each other, then outside the arena they are best friends, of course this is a reverse of that in some ways.

  437. 437
    Jonathan says:

    Darrell,

    Have you found any pre-invasion Halliburton Iraq contracts not related to oil yet?

    Just checking in case you had forgotten.

  438. 438
    Rome Again says:

    Have to admit it was kind of weird. Kinda like watching a pro-wrestling match, one minute they hate each other, then outside the arena they are best friends, of course this is a reverse of that in some ways.

    Yes, dreggas, I felt like we were in our own little episode of “The Twilight Zone.”

  439. 439
    Jake says:

    Iraq is the desert they will wander in.

    Looking for IEDs. By kicking packages found alongside the road.

  440. 440
    dreggas says:

    Jake Says:

    Iraq is the desert they will wander in.

    Looking for IEDs. By kicking packages found alongside the road.

    No that would kill them too quickly. I say we feed em to camel spiders.

  441. 441
    Jake says:

    No that would kill them too quickly. I say we feed em to camel spiders.

    Bu-but when the bits rained down we could pretend it was flowers an’ candy!

    Or at least sweetbreads.

    Sorry, I’m 2M4MOG.

  442. 442
    dreggas says:

    Jake Says:

    Bu-but when the bits rained down we could pretend it was flowers an’ candy!

    Or at least sweetbreads.

    Sorry, I’m 2M4MOG.

    You are apologizing to someone who finds scenes like that hilarious in most cases simply for the whole idea of it being “flowers” and “candy”. I am a sick individual, very twisted, so no need to apologize, I have few sensibilities to offend and even fewer morals for the most part.

  443. 443
    Krista says:

    The meat has to seared at a very high temp, so that it carmelizes but doesn’t overcook and dry out. Almost nobody knows how to do this. “Very high temp” means two degrees short of starting a fire in the kitchen.

    Mmmmm. Seared meat. Just don’t forget to temporarily take the battery out of your smoke detector.

  444. 444
    TenguPhule says:

    Why has it been FIVE FUCKING YEARS since I’ve had a new pony?

    Because you haven’t finished screwing the dead one you already own, Darrell.

Comments are closed.