Really?

Abu Gonzales, meet Russ Feingold.

Feingold‘s first question – “do you know of any one in the country who opposed eavesdropping on terrorists?”

Gonzales: “Sure – if you look at blogs today, there is a lot of concern about all types of eavesdropping, who don’t want us eavesdropping at all.

Feingold: Do you know anyone in government who ever took that position?

Gonzales: No, but that is not what I said.

Feingold: It is a disgrace and disservice to your office and the President to have accused people on this Committee of opposing eavesdropping on terrorists.

Gonzales: I didn’t have you in mind or anyone on the Committee when I referred to people who oppose eavesdropping on terrorists. Perish the thought.

Feingold: Oh, well it’s nice that you didn’t have us “in your mind” when making those accusations, but given that you and the President were running around the country accusing people of opposing eavesdropping on terrorists in the middle of an election, the fact that you didn’t have Congressional Democrats in “mind” isn’t significant. Your intent was to make people think that anyone who opposed the “TSP” did not want to eavesdrop on terrorists, even though that was false. No Democrats oppose eavesdropping on terrorists.

Gonzales: I wasn’t referring to Democrats.

So it was just a grave misunderstanding Republicans hinged their 2006 campaign on cynical attacks on their political opponents. Not at all, they really meant bloggers. With messaging skill like that it’s no wonder they lost.

Now I’m curious. Who are we talking about here? Off the top of my head I can’t think of any bloggers who thought that we shouldn’t eavesdrop on terrorists. Gonzales now admits that opposing the warrantless eavesdropping program on constitutional grounds does not automatically equate with supporting terrorists, and yet that is exactly the basis on which the bloggers whom I know about opposed the program. While we wait for Gonzales to substantiate his slander v2.0 (could be a while, eh?), let’s see whether the GOP’s internet supporters can back him up.

So, who was abu Gonzales talking about? Remember that opposing the program simply because warrantless eavesdropping on American citizens violates FISA no longer counts. You need to find somebody who argued that we shouldn’t eavesdrop on terrorists, period. And gosh, this has to be one influential blogger to spark such a hysterical reaction from the width and breadth of the Republican party.

Or, we could be honest with ourselves. The endless, slanderous supporting-the-terrorists rhetoric was meant to have a shelf life of about two months. The point was to fan hate and fear among the base long enough to give the Party its usual jingoistic bump and then hope everybody forgets about it. I don’t think I’m breaking any new ground here, that’s always the plan.

Once you cross that kind of Rubicon a grown man has basically two choices. he could own up to it and say to Feingold’s face, yeah, I think you don’t want to surveil terrorists. bin Laden-lover. Or he can own up and apologize for pretending that Democrats were one small step removed from traitors to the Republic. Taking the weasel way out insults his intelligence and ours.






191 replies
  1. 1
    jenniebee says:

    That’s pre-1/16 thinking there. Burning Crusade changed everything.

  2. 2
    Mr Furious says:

    I cannot believe he actually said “Perish the thought.” A phrase more or less synonymous with acknowledgement dripping with sarcasm.

    Or maybe he just speaks like a complete tool.

    Either way…

  3. 3
    ThymeZone says:

    Gonzales is a lying, paid weasel. And he is the chief law enforcement officer for the United States.

    That all by itself tells you the level of continuing danger we face from this corrupt and inept government.

    These people … George Bush and his cabinet and his close advisors … are real and imminent threats to the country.

    I agree with those who say that they’ve done more actual damage to this country than the 911 terrorists ever did.

    I am glad to see the Dems getting in his face and letting him know that he isn’t fooling anybody with his bullshit.

  4. 4
    jg says:

    Gonzales: “Sure – if you look at blogs today, there is a lot of concern about all types of eavesdropping, who don’t want us eavesdropping at all.

    Not on citizens without a warrant. otherwise knock yourselves out. This concept is being muddled on purpose.

  5. 5
    Steve says:

    “I wasn’t referring to Democrats.” Give me a fucking break.

  6. 6
    Pb says:

    Perhaps he really meant to say “blog commenters”, or “spoof comments secretly written by Gonzales”. And really, would Ken Mehlman lie?

    “As foreign jihadists call into the United States, do we use [NSA] technology to stop sleeper cells before they hit us? Or do we surrender use of this technology, as Nancy Pelosi and Howard Dean would have us do?” — Ken Mehlman, 08/04/2006

    And, more to the point–Gonzales, why are you surrendering to the terrorists?! Why, if Dick Cheney wasn’t such a partisan hack liar, he’d kick your ass for it right now!

  7. 7
    Jake says:

    Should we worry that Abomination Gonzales is watching the blogs?

    Looks like the Administration is looking for a new whipping boy. Since calling Democratic members of Congress terrorist toadies is no longer a safe bet, the mysterious blogs lurking within the Intertubes will be the next Surrender Monkeys. What a cretin.

    Re: Orrin “Down the” Hatch, I wonder if he’ll go around saying pornography is as big a threat to America as terrorism?

  8. 8
    srv says:

    I predict Darrell will use “speaking truth to power” in this thread.

  9. 9
    Andrei says:

    That’s pre-1/16 thinking there. Burning Crusade changed everything.

    OMFG that’s funny. And for the record, a little part of me dies whenever I replace hard earned epix with greens and blues.

  10. 10
    dreggas says:

    blockquote>Re: Orrin “Down the” Hatch, I wonder if he’ll go around saying pornography is as big a threat to America as terrorism?

  11. 11
    Zifnab says:

    Since calling Democratic members of Congress terrorist toadies is no longer a safe bet, the mysterious blogs lurking within the Intertubes will be the next Surrender Monkeys. What a cretin.

    Like “evil liberal bloggers” wasn’t already the meme being touted around by the FOX hacks for the past two years.

    “Oh noes! Bloggers have hacked Joe Lieberman’s site! What terrorism! What incivility! I got a ream of nasty emails using words not suitable for Lincoln Douglas style debate! The amount of partisan hate on the intertubes is simply overwhelming!”

    How many times have you heard some Republican whaaaambulance driver suggest what horrible things would happen if the normally gentle Democrats were to bow to the whims of the slavoring tube-lurking masses, now that they’re controlling Congress? If Net Neutrality doesn’t crumble, I’m sure they’ll try to send the FCC after verbal nudity or some such bullshit next. Because we can’t let our children be exposed to such extreme opinions.

  12. 12
    Jackmormon says:

    Oh my goodness. I have such a crush on Feingold.

  13. 13
  14. 14
    Cyrus says:

    Andrei Says:

    That’s pre-1/16 thinking there. Burning Crusade changed everything.

    OMFG that’s funny. And for the record, a little part of me dies whenever I replace hard earned epix with greens and blues.

    Heh, I love it. Mostly because my main is a druid who gave up a feral spec with some regret when he progressed to end-game raids. As soon as I saw a green staff from the second or third quest in HP, going back was a pretty easy choice.

    My goal is to have this discussion completely unintelligible to non-gamers in three more comments at most. If it’s not already.

  15. 15
    dreggas says:

    Damn it it screwed up my post.

    Anyway yeah Orrin continued his obssession with porn but just before their lunch break it was nice to see Leahy(?) show some emotion and slap Gonzales upside the head over Arar and in general for being a tool.

  16. 16
    Andrew says:

    Gonzales was right. It was me. I admit it. All part of my plan to surrender to the terrorists.

  17. 17
    dreggas says:

    Heh, I love it. Mostly because my main is a druid who gave up a feral spec with some regret when he progressed to end-game raids. As soon as I saw a green staff from the second or third quest in HP, going back was a pretty easy choice.

    My goal is to have this discussion completely unintelligible to non-gamers in three more comments at most. If it’s not already.

    I am guessing WOW because it definitely isn’t Neverwinter Nights 2 or D&D 3.5 that’s for sure.

  18. 18
    Andrew says:

    Planescape: Torment is the coolest game ever.

  19. 19
    pharniel says:

    Andrei Says:

    That’s pre-1/16 thinking there. Burning Crusade changed everything.

    OMFG that’s funny. And for the record, a little part of me dies whenever I replace hard earned epix with greens and blues.

    Heh, I love it. Mostly because my main is a druid who gave up a feral spec with some regret when he progressed to end-game raids. As soon as I saw a green staff from the second or third quest in HP, going back was a pretty easy choice.

    My goal is to have this discussion completely unintelligible to non-gamers in three more comments at most. If it’s not already.

    w007, pure pwnage. right now shadwoform jesus rides again (and kills for your sins) as I’m waiting for my box to come in the mail, so instead i’m twinking my freinds be mangina alts through rfc, rfk, rfd and bfd (the lost instances).
    it’s too hawt tanking in an instance….

    i once considered an analogy of the alliance as the republicans (and the players as the base) and the horde as everyone else…

  20. 20
    dreggas says:

    Planescape: Torment is the coolest game ever.

    I would agree I wish I hadn’t broke my copy because I never beat it and want to play it again even if it is second edition rules.

  21. 21
    pharniel says:

    Andrew Says:

    Planescape: Torment is the coolest game ever.

    That’s traitor’s talk Heretic. P:T was indeed a very good game, but it’s not ‘the coolest’
    You are hereby docked 500 geek cred and 50 dkp.

    The coolest game ever is still Ultima VII Pt 2: Serpent’s Isle

  22. 22
    pharniel says:

    dreggas Says:

    Planescape: Torment is the coolest game ever.

    I would agree I wish I hadn’t broke my copy because I never beat it and want to play it again even if it is second edition rules.

    Oddly enough, you’ll note it is actually 2.5 at least for the main character. advancement works exactly like 3.0 worked….i’m pretty sure the whole game was a tech demo for 3.x

  23. 23
    Krista says:

    My goal is to have this discussion completely unintelligible to non-gamers in three more comments at most. If it’s not already.

    It is.

  24. 24
    dreggas says:

    pharniel,

    being a veteran of 1.0 tabletop to currently using 3.5 for a table top game I am loving 3.5 with regard to ease of use. Makes it easier to teach new players and keep a game going without arcane rules checks.

  25. 25
    jenniebee says:

    w00t! thread hijacked! I am 1337.

    Just bought 15g or so for five greens off the AH for my lvl 59 face-melter (6th toon to 60 and my favorite so far), and they’re better than Tier 0.5. The quest rewards for the first chain in Outlands are on par with Zandalar and Tier 1 gear, so I’m going to be able to get her equipped to the point that it took me months of raiding to achieve with my mage by, let’s say this Sunday afternoon.

    First player to 70 happened yesterday, btw: http://www.worldofraids.com/fo.....php?t=3441.

  26. 26
    Mr Furious says:

    I’m with Krista.

    Maybe next we can turn this into another global warming thread Like the fired US Attorneys)?

  27. 27
    Zifnab says:

    being a veteran of 1.0 tabletop to currently using 3.5 for a table top game I am loving 3.5 with regard to ease of use. Makes it easier to teach new players and keep a game going without arcane rules checks.

    I was just happy when they gave out item creation and got ride of ThAC0. Also, saves make alot more sense. I remember my DM being reluctant to even throw a save at us unless it was neatly boxed under the rules. Now we get random shit all the time where the DM is just, like, “Ok, make a Will save.” And we’re left wondering “WTF! We’re gonna die!”

  28. 28
    Pooh says:

    Oh my goodness. I have such a crush on Feingold.

    My hetero mancrush grows and grows, as well…

    Gore-Feingold ’08 anyone?

  29. 29
    SeesThroughIt says:

    let’s see whether the GOP’s internet supporters can back him up.

    Fear not. I’m sure blogsforbush will have something jaw-droppingly ignorant up by the end of the day. (Something about this subject, I mean–it’s a given that blogsforbush will post something jaw-droppingly ignorant, generally speaking)

  30. 30
    Andrew says:

    Planescape the campaign setting, like Dark Sun, had a LOT of weird rules and modifiers to the basic 2nd Ed. Planescape: Torment takes a ton of liberties with everything.

    Ultima VII Pt 2 was not nearly as cool as part 1, because part 1 was astoundingly new. I remember actually calling up a friend and telling him that there were shadows from clouds. Plus the plot of pt 1 was quite good: The Fellowship was a great riff on Christian cults. (Note that U7 plays very well in the Exult emulator.)

    To digress even further, Ultima 7 Pt 1 isn’t the coolest because Ultima Underworld is even cooler. FPS before anyone had ever heard of such a thing. Far more advanced than the later Castle Wolfenstein.

    On the other hand, nothing was quite as joyous as playing Pool of Radiance on my 286, 5.25″ floppies, spinny cardboard disk and all.

    I admit PS:T definately isn’t the coolest game ever, but it’s the coolest game I’m playing right now.

    We need big, flashing Dork Alert icons next to our posts.

  31. 31
    John Cole says:

    I bought the expansion for Warcrack, too.

    We shall see how it is…

  32. 32
    Decided FenceSitter says:

    Why I dislike 3.0 and 3.5. (Discussion by Monte Cook, one of the original designers.

    I’m thrilled that BC has given WOW back to the casual players. No longer do I have to get on 40 man raids so I get do BFG and not get my arse handed to me.

    And now, now I break my 59.9 Rogue out to play again. MWAHAHAHAHA!

  33. 33
    The Other Andrew says:

    This is one of the more common “conventional wisdom” memes that starts on Fox News and talk-radio and gets picked up by the DC pundits: “If you don’t support the Republicans’ (illegal/ineffective/incompetent) methods of dealing with terrorism, you must not care/want them to win!” The idea of the third option–agreeing that it’s a threat, but wanting to use different methods–is still radical, sad to say.

    On the subject of grossly-inaccurate propaganda, I’ve never understood how anyone could think that liberals could love terrorists. The right says that both hate America, but terrorists hate America for the reasons that liberals love it–women’s rights, free speech, gay rights, freedom to choose what kind of life to lead, nudity in Super Bowl halftime shows, etc. I fear for the day that Christian and Muslim fundamentalists realize that they have a common enemy–sane people everywhere–and act accordingly.

  34. 34
    Jake says:

    My goal is to have this discussion completely unintelligible to non-gamers in three more comments at most.

    Then hop aboard the carrier, don your sock-enhanced flight suit and hang up that Mission Accomplished! banner.

  35. 35
    Pooh says:

    All our thread are belong to nerds.

  36. 36
    Tony J says:

    I have only the most tenuous flicker of an idea what you people are talking about, and I’m frightened. Horribly, horribly frightened.

    Mission Accomplished?

  37. 37
    pharniel says:

    Zifnab Says:

    being a veteran of 1.0 tabletop to currently using 3.5 for a table top game I am loving 3.5 with regard to ease of use. Makes it easier to teach new players and keep a game going without arcane rules checks.

    I was just happy when they gave out item creation and got ride of ThAC0. Also, saves make alot more sense. I remember my DM being reluctant to even throw a save at us unless it was neatly boxed under the rules. Now we get random shit all the time where the DM is just, like, “Ok, make a Will save.” And we’re left wondering “WTF! We’re gonna die!”

    The d20 system is a bit easier to grasp the basics of, but there really needs to be a culling and either more skill points or fewwer skils. and seriously, the FAQ and the errata writers need to get on the same page.

    any of y’all NWoD palyers?

  38. 38
    Edmund Dantes says:

    Apparently you haven’t read Dinesh Dsousa’s (or however you spell his name) new book.

  39. 39
    pharniel says:

    John Cole Says:

    I bought the expansion for Warcrack, too.

    We shall see how it is…

    ONE OF US! ONE OF US! GOOBLE-GOBBLE-GOOBLE-GOBBLE! ONE OF US!

    To digress back on topic, I get tired of my conservative and nearly Libratarian freinds when I have to explain that the my options don’t invovle shredding the constitution and invovle winning without fighting, which is the only thing Makieavelli and Sun Tzu both agree are the highest forms of Wins.
    IN short, they won’t let me fight the culture wars in a way that would totally pwnz the other team.
    fucking n00bs.

  40. 40
    Pb says:

    I finished playing through NWN2 recently, it was fun (and pretty too…) — past favorites of mine include Baldur’s Gate II, Ultima VI, and Legacy of the Ancients (for the C64, baby, yeah!). And incidentally, it’s possible to play Baldur’s Gate on the BGII engine–in fact, I played through it as a solo wild mage, that was fun…

  41. 41
    OCSteve says:

    I don’t think I’m breaking any new ground here, that’s always the plan.

    You are not and it is.

    OT: Next time it comes up though we’ll have a better record – Harry Reid wants bloggers to have to register and report just like any other lobbyist. (ht Insty)

    And I’ll bet McCain is on board too. This is right up his alley.

  42. 42
    Krista says:

    The games you guys play just sound way too damn complex. Right now, I’m sticking with Civ IV and Kingdom of Loathing. As it is, between those two and this place, the housework is suffering mightily.

  43. 43

    Remember, goys and birls, The Computer is Your Friend.

    (Regrettably, I have a life, so can’t play World of Whorecraft or anything like that. Pity, too — I got into D&D Online last summer, before the kids got busy with school.)

  44. 44

    Actually, OCS, that’s a bogus claim. Richard Viguery created an astroturf organization to spread that, but, when you actually look at the text, it’s aimed at payed lobbyist who generate “grass-roots” pressure…like, say, him.

  45. 45
    Call me ishmael says:

    OK – since this has been threadjacked into the realm of WoW, perhaps this would interest. The awesome John Rodgers of KungFu Monkey figures that this is the gold standard of analogies regarding W’s administration of late:

    George Bush is Leroy Jenkins!

    Leroy JEEEEENkins, dammit. I’ve gotta admit, it makes for a compelling case. If you’re a gamer nerd, that is.

  46. 46
    Tsulagi says:

    Or he can own up and apologize for pretending that Democrats were one small step removed from traitors to the Republic.

    That’ll happen about the same time you see glaciers on the equator. Just more of the spine-free administration on display.

    I remember seeing Abu interviewed soon after the NSA wiretapping story broke. The interviewer asked if FISA wasn’t broad or strong enough to deal with potential threats, why didn’t the administration seek enabling legislation through Congress. Gonzales answered that was their preferred first option, but he said the admin didn’t think Congress would pass it. If just after 9/11 the admin didn’t think a pseudo-testosterone spraying Republican controlled Congress would pass this NSA program, it’s likely a real work of art.

    Not surprised now they’re looking to put it under FISA court review. What if the unspeakable were to happen? That in two years there was a Democrat president. Wouldn’t want him/her to have unlimited power to tap into all communications of whomever, wherever they wanted with no oversight. Won’t be surprised if in other areas they suddenly rediscover the Constitution and respect for rule of law as dipshit prepares for his bigger vacation two years from now.

  47. 47
    Tony J says:

    But with the White House seemingly backing away from a challenge on this front, experience leads me to believe that we’ll eventually hear tell of some sideways Presidential edict that gives El Residente the right under the Unitary Executive Principle: (subsection – Wartime, powers of the CIC during) to authorise whatever the hell he damned well likes as long as the security of the nation is at stake.

    What? You think Yoo or Addington haven’t built a trapdoor into this and sent Gonzales out to say just enough to give plausible deniability?

    “No-one could have forseen that Congress would regard these actions as running contrary to the Administration’s public statements.”

  48. 48
    Decided FenceSitter says:

    pharniel Says:
    any of y’all NWoD palyers?

    Not particularly, couldn’t get into the new variation for any of the supernaturals.

    Though, I am looking for to Scion coming out in April, though I doubt I’ll drop my 2.5 year long Exalted campaign to do anything with it. It shall go on the shelf to bow the wood.

  49. 49
    Pb says:

    OCSteve,

    Normally, McCain would be on board for a sane lobbying reform proposal (he has been in the past), but not this time–he’s currently pandering in the other direction, because…

    conservative figures as powerful as Richard Viguerie and James Dobson have weighed in hard on the measure in the current bill. Viguerie is calling it “the biggest threat to free speech ever,” and Dobson’s Focus on the Family is circulating a petition against it.

    …and if Viguerie thinks it’s a threat to “free speech”, and Dobson’s fighting it, then it’s got to be good! Because remember, kiddies, in their world, “free speech” = money and astroturfing, one dollar one vote and all that.

  50. 50
    Ryan S. says:

    Uber Nerd alert. I found DosBox and dusted off my old DOS games. Nothing like getting addicted to Ultima Underworld 2 again…. or is that just sad.

  51. 51
    OCSteve says:

    demimondian: Thanks. I’ll give it another reading. On the first pass it did seem to cover bloggers.

  52. 52
    dreggas says:

    I finished playing through NWN2 recently, it was fun (and pretty too…)—past favorites of mine include Baldur’s Gate II, Ultima VI, and Legacy of the Ancients (for the C64, baby, yeah!). And incidentally, it’s possible to play Baldur’s Gate on the BGII engine—in fact, I played through it as a solo wild mage, that was fun…

    NWN2 is pretty and I am on my second go-round playing a warlock (eat my eldritch blast bitch). Of course besides loving D&D and NWN I work on a PW that we are going to convert to NWN2 as soon as the bugs are worked out.

    Played BG-BGII and Icewind Dale (not a big fan of that one).

    As for table top they need to get rid of some skills like “Find Information”. They have done away with Roleplay with a focus on dice rolling but that’s what house rules are for. Hell I read through everything and throw out half the rules from the get go. I did the same in 2nd ed since it was bloody annoying and really limited the pace.

  53. 53
    Steve says:

    What is with you clowns getting all worked up over a video game? Don’t you know there are important issues in the world?

    (I have five level 60’s.)

  54. 54
    pharniel says:

    Ryan S. Says:

    Uber Nerd alert. I found DosBox and dusted off my old DOS games. Nothing like getting addicted to Ultima Underworld 2 again…. or is that just sad.

    Actually there are quite a few projects to re-build the old ultima franchise in new systems.

    I provide links.
    the most ambitions require dungeon siege I
    http://www.u6project.com/
    ultima 5 Redone (completed)
    Look at the crossbow Ilo made for him and LB signed.

  55. 55
    dreggas says:

    What is with you clowns getting all worked up over a video game? Don’t you know there are important issues in the world?

    (I have five level 60’s.)

    Hey you live your life I’ll live mine. With all the shit that goes on in this world between work, family, and news I rather like my 2 hours of slaughtering pixels.

    BTW – never got into WoW much prefer NWN since I can program it :).

  56. 56
    ThymeZone says:

    What is with you clowns getting all worked up over a video game?

    Heh. I have not played a video game in 30 years. I don’t know the names of any of them, don’t have them, don’t want to know about them. Basically detest them. I use computers to put groceries on the table, but when it’s time to play, I want nothing to do with them.

    Time to play … I play the piano. Or play with Maci. Or play music. Or read a book. Or bash Darrell. Something that has no keyboard, mouse, stick or paddle associated with it.

    If I want to be annoyed by some noisy, obnoxious creature that is out to bedevil me, I talk to my ex-wife. I don’t need a computer-generated devil when there are real ones out there.

    If you were guards at Abu Ghraib, and wanted to get me to talk, you’d force me to play video games. I’d crack in one day.

  57. 57
    Steve says:

    Greenwald:

    The Washington Post’s Dan Froomkin finds some excellent examples where the President previously (a) insisted that he could not protect the country if he were forced to eavesdrop within the FISA framework and (b) accused Democrats — not bloggers, but Democrats — of opposing eavesdropping on terrorists:

    “When it comes to listening to the terrorists, what’s the Democrats’ answer? It’s, just say no. When it comes to detaining terrorists, what is the Democrats’ answer? Just say no. When it comes to questioning terrorists, what’s the Democrats’ answer?

    AUDIENCE: Just say no!”

    The claim that people who opposed warrantless eavesdropping were “opposed to eavesdropping on terrorists” was always an outright lie – one of the very, very few times I have ever applied that term when analyzing or arguing political debates. To say that Democrats (and other critics of the “TSP”) opposed eavesdropping on terrorists is not spin. It is just a lie. Democrats favored eavesdropping on terrorists, which is what FISA permits. And the administration knew that. Yet they continuously said otherwise.

    And now that Gonzales has to face the people whom he and his Leader falsely accused, he cowardly claims that he never meant them at all, but instead was only referring to some random unnamed blogger who supposedly opposes all eavesdropping, even on The Terrorists. Pretending that the accusation wasn’t directed at Democrats when he has to answer them face-to-face is as cowardly as the original accusations were dishonest.

  58. 58
    Blue Neponset says:

    Re: WOW

    Maybe we can create a Baloon Juice guild so I don’t have to be three times older than most of my guildmates. I absolutely hate it when one of them asks me how old I am.

  59. 59
    Jake says:

    OT: Next time it comes up though we’ll have a better record – Harry Reid wants bloggers to have to register and report just like any other lobbyist. (ht Insty)

    My understanding is Reid voted against it so the bill can be reintroduced again later in the year. In the interim, it is a loogie in Viagra’s eye because his website claims th was is a Pelosi-Reid scheme to stifle free speech and help K Street. Am I too lazy to link back to my previous posts on this?

    Yeah I am.

  60. 60
    AkaDad says:

    Gonzales: I wasn’t referring to Democrats.

    From Dan Froomkin today on WaPo.com:

    And as he campaigned for Republican candidates in the mid-term elections, Bush repeatedly tried to tar Democrats who were calling for judicial oversight as being pro-terrorist — and even went so far as to get his audiences to participate in the jeering.

    Here he is for instance, in October: “When it comes to listening to the terrorists, what’s the Democrats’ answer? It’s, just say no. When it comes to detaining terrorists, what is the Democrats’ answer? Just say no. When it comes to questioning terrorists, what’s the Democrats’ answer?

    h/t SomeNYGuy

  61. 61
    AkaDad says:

    Blah, Steve beat me to it. :p

    I’m not a fan of mmorpg’s. Lately I’ve been playing Madden 07, Half Life 2 Ep.1, and Rainbow 6 Lockdown.

  62. 62
    Pooh says:

    Heh. I have not played a video game in 30 years.

    Knock me over with a feather…in your day, you didn’t have toys, you had rocks and the little rollers they used for toilet paper. And you LIKED it, damn it.

  63. 63
    OCSteve says:

    Still OT, but after the gamers I don’t feel too bad :)

    demimondian: Can’t link directly. If you are interested, go here and search for bill S.1 and read Section 220.

    It appears they basically want to differentiate “GRASSROOTS LOBBYING” from “PAID EFFORTS TO STIMULATE GRASSROOTS LOBBYING”.

    Grassroots lobbying = voluntary efforts = OK.

    Paid efforts could be the other. I guess it hinges on the definition of “paid”. On first reading I thought it looked like accepting donations might qualify, but there is the specific wording “on behalf of a client”.

    So if your audience is more than 500 and you are being paid by a client (not sure if advertising would count) and promoting their views on your blog – it seems like you might still fit. Maybe an issue for Kos or RedState – but not for most I guess.

  64. 64
    Pooh says:

    Madden 07

    Worst X-mas gift ever was my mom’s boyfriend’s son giving him (about 65, but rabid Pats fan) and XBox360 and Madden ’07. Controllers were spiked and swear words were uttered. The XBOX works surprisingly well as a coaster, however.

  65. 65
    SeesThroughIt says:

    The games you guys play just sound way too damn complex. Right now, I’m sticking with Civ IV and Kingdom of Loathing. As it is, between those two and this place, the housework is suffering mightily.

    Hell, I’m still playing Madden 2004 on the PS2. John, you wouldn’t believe how good Tommy Maddox and Amos Zeroue can become in that game.

    I heard that Nintendo is bringing back the O.G. Ice Hockey for the Wii, though. If that’s true, that could convince me to buy the damn thing. I freaking loved Nintendo Ice Hockey back in the day. I wish I still had a funtioning NES….

  66. 66
    Jake says:

    demimondian: Can’t link directly. If you are interested, go here and search for bill S.1 and read Section 220.

    You can get a direct link to the bill here. (Searching Thomas is a nightmare.)

    Note the 25K/Q requirement.

  67. 67
    RSA says:

    I have only the most tenuous flicker of an idea what you people are talking about, and I’m frightened. Horribly, horribly frightened.

    Me too. I’m the way I imagine a mechanical engineer would feel walking into a NASCAR garage, or maybe a biologist in a restaurant kitchen. “I understand the basic principles, but I have no idea what the hell anyone is talking about.”

  68. 68
    Pooh says:

    I wish I still had a funtioning NES….

    Dude, Super DodgeBall.

  69. 69
    TenguPhule says:

    That in two years there was a Democrat president. Wouldn’t want him/her to have unlimited power to tap into all communications of whomever, wherever they wanted with no oversight.

    Darrell has no problem with Empress for Life Hillary probing his electric bunghole. Commence insertion!

  70. 70
    dreggas says:

    Pooh Says:

    I wish I still had a funtioning NES….
    Dude, Super DodgeBall.

    My father In Law has several with almost every NES game made.

  71. 71
    Pooh says:

    Since we’re already off topic, Wonkette may have the line of the day:

    If this government had run the Holocaust, they would’ve killed all the juice.

  72. 72
    Richard 23 says:

    I wish I still had a funtioning NES….

    There’s always emulation. I still occasionally play the old coin op arcade games in MAME and MacMAME.

  73. 73
    ThymeZone says:

    in your day, you didn’t have toys, you had rocks and the little rollers they used for toilet paper. And you LIKED it, damn it.

    Heh. You made me think. As a kid, the greatest toy I ever got was a microscope. The second greatest was a Heathkit shortwave radio. Third, an enlarger and the darkroom equipment to go with it. At 13 I was doing my own color photofinishing and selling school dance portraits and making a fortune. Anything that made me money, I wanted to do it.

    I don’t know what you were doing back in your day, but I was not playing with rocks. Of course, you live in Alaska, so that has to be taken into account.

  74. 74
    Zifnab says:

    The d20 system is a bit easier to grasp the basics of, but there really needs to be a culling and either more skill points or fewwer skils. and seriously, the FAQ and the errata writers need to get on the same page.

    any of y’all NWoD palyers?

    Anybody who talks about nWoD and “FAQ/errata writers needing to get together”, or better yet, “people who know how the hell to write an index and everyone on the White Wolf staff”, either knows what he’s talking about or needs to stfu.

    The WORST book lay-out I have EVER seen, even if they do release some of the best games.

    But WoD is a storytelling game and D&D is a hack’n’slash, so its forgiveable. I actually haven’t played more than a game or two in the new WoD. The old world just seemed more fleshed out and more appealing. They really dumbed down the Mage storyline – my favorite game – and cut alot of the flavor out of the others, even if they gave the game mechanics a much needed overhaul.

  75. 75
    Krista says:

    I don’t know what you were doing back in your day, but I was not playing with rocks. Of course, you live in Alaska, so that has to be taken into account.

    zing!

  76. 76
    Decided FenceSitter says:

    Eh, it’s been a generally accepted fact that if you liked oWOD Fatsplats you’ll dislike their new variation in nWOD, except for Vampire which kept much of the same themes and processes.

    [Deletes a lot of gratutious geeking regarding Exalted, Adventure, and gaming in general.]

    Let’s just leave it at that I post regularly at RPG.Net under a different name.

  77. 77
    MrSnrub says:

    John Cole said:

    I bought the expansion for Warcrack, too.

    We shall see how it is…

    I’m in yer house, elfin’ up your horde!

  78. 78
    Fruitbat says:

    All this specialized gamer talk is depressing. I’m still waiting for the sequel to The Fool’s Errand.

  79. 79
    Pooh says:

    I don’t know what you were doing back in your day, but I was not playing with rocks.

    I’m still in my day, old man.

  80. 80
    Pooh says:

    And how have we discussed gaming for this long and not noted that W is Leeroy Jenkins?

  81. 81
    pharniel says:

    Anybody who talks about nWoD and “FAQ/errata writers needing to get together”, or better yet, “people who know how the hell to write an index and everyone on the White Wolf staff”, either knows what he’s talking about or needs to stfu.

    The WORST book lay-out I have EVER seen, even if they do release some of the best games.

    eh. it’s not that abominable.

    The main problem is that the toolbox style really really works for the NWoD, but only if you put some work into it.
    As for d20, the problem is do they want to be a mechanistic simulation, or a high power adventure game?
    because the rules are written like code, but then include unforgivable ambiguity in line statements.
    If i wrote code like that i’d be beating with nettles until i bled (since i’m not currently writing for cash. in that case i’d code for years until my piss poor programming habits surficed as a major bug and i’d be ‘encouraged to seek opertunities elsewhere’. Probobly with severance for my inconvience. meanwhile tell one uppity client that maybe they just might not get a poney the next time they purge themselves and you get fired. bitter? not at all..)

    But WoD is a storytelling game and D&D is a hack’n’slash, so its forgiveable. I actually haven’t played more than a game or two in the new WoD. The old world just seemed more fleshed out and more appealing. They really dumbed down the Mage storyline – my favorite game – and cut alot of the flavor out of the others, even if they gave the game mechanics a much needed overhaul.

    Just new mage got Gitmo’d (or is it abu-ghabi’d?) and was in fact kind of rushed out the door. It’s a salvageable enough game, but werewolf is still x-men with fur. sadly. Vmpire’s still pretty groovn’ though. The other thing is that omage really didn’t, well, belong in the world-o-darker-darkness. Neither did changeling. and then both lost thier voice.
    and while I was originally underimpressed with Mage it really has gotten better, but deserves a revised edition, preferably to go with new changeling.

    and exalted is still tits on ice.
    i used to surf RPG.net..but then work blocked it, but not BJ, though i miss rpg.net because when i read things that pissed me off there at least it wasn’t our country and service men paying in blood for the mistakes of petty tyrants and shortsighted fools.

  82. 82
    gus says:

    I’m so conflicted. If I wanted a nerdfest, I would have found a gaming chat. On the positive side, not a sniff of Darrell.

  83. 83
    pharniel says:

    Mr. Snrub

    I’m in yer house, elfin’ up your horde!

    Seriously, they could have left the Mangina on the Alliance side….horde players tend to be less assholes overall than alliance and I blame ‘hawt’ mangina avatars and non-cute races on that.
    You can keep your cuteness, I’ll take the people what talkin semi-complete sentances.
    oh, and that empathy and social skills thing. some of that too.

  84. 84
    pharniel says:

    gus Says:

    I’m so conflicted. If I wanted a nerdfest, I would have found a gaming chat. On the positive side, not a sniff of Darrell.

    Maybe we should do this mor often then when darrel comes about…just geek it up hardcops styles untill he wanders off

  85. 85
    Steve says:

    Seriously, they could have left the Mangina on the Alliance side….horde players tend to be less assholes overall than alliance and I blame ‘hawt’ mangina avatars and non-cute races on that.

    Yeah, but I wonder if you’ve ever felt the pain of being on a server with like a 3:1 Alliance/Horde ratio.

    On the other hand, blood elf newbie chat may possibly be worse than Barrens chat.

  86. 86
    dreggas says:

    But WoD is a storytelling game and D&D is a hack’n’slash, so its forgiveable.

    Depends on who is running the game, personally I tend to encourage more roleplay with less combat when DMing but that’s just me.

  87. 87
    pharniel says:

    Steve said

    Yeah, but I wonder if you’ve ever felt the pain of being on a server with like a 3:1 Alliance/Horde ratio.

    On the other hand, blood elf newbie chat may possibly be worse than Barrens chat.

    [gunny]
    Medive Horde born-n-bred son, i’ve been fightn’ back the hordes of those pasty-face’d invulnerable pretty boys since before there was more than one server.
    [/gunny]

    Yha. I know that pain so much. But barrens chat was like having every BJ troll trying to outtroll AoS and RedState before the expnasion…it’s got to be 4chan.org/b/ bad now.

    i ph@3r for the genuine new players stuck in that morass of fucktardness.

    also, watch red vs. blue. It reminds me more and more of the administration every day.
    (…and what else has tusks…?
    a walrus.
    I TOLD YOU TO STOP MAKING UP ANIMALS!)

  88. 88

    If you were guards at Abu Ghraib, and wanted to get me to talk, you’d force me to play video games. I’d crack in one day.

    You should check out Kingdom of Loathing, though. It’s not complicated, and the writing is pretty hilarious.

  89. 89
    Punchy says:

    All this specialized gamer talk is depressing. I’m still waiting for the sequel to The Fool’s Errand.

    Or the next “The Wire” episode, so it can suck like the rest of ’em.

    As for games, gimmie Super Techmo Bowl (and golf) and I’m straight.

  90. 90
    ThymeZone says:

    I’m still in my day, old man.

    So you believe, sonny.

    I’m sure that video games will lead your generation directly to cures for cancer, a solution to global warming and Middle East crises, and (my own personal priority) a remedy for baldness.

    The fact that we don’t yet have these is proof of the essential badness of trying to have a civilization without video games. Seriously, I think the positive effects are going to be huge.

    Just as our generation began to be relevant when comic books were the rage, yours will triumph with the advent of video games. And your kids will reach the final pinnacle of human achievement thanks to MySpace and huffing household cleaners.

    The continuum of life, a wonderful thing.

  91. 91
    Pooh says:

    In seriousness, I think that video games have helped me a fair amount in terms of developing spatial reasoning and quick logic-based decision making. If they were all did, that probably wouldn’t mean much…

    Or the next “The Wire” episode, so it can suck like the rest of ‘em.

    Dude, we can have this flamewar, but you just hit’n’run with this one every time

  92. 92
    ThymeZone says:

    I didn’t write that “wire” thing.

  93. 93
    ThymeZone says:

    I thought the baldness line was pretty good though.

    But my greatest non sequitur in months was over on the cure-for-cancer thread. Gold, I tell you.

    When are the Oscars for bloggy humor?

  94. 94
    John Cole says:

    The Leeroy Jenkins video is funny, but to listen to them talk before the encounter started, I am not sure what game they play.

    BTW- 60 mage/pally/hunter

  95. 95
    Steve says:

    Come on, John. You know you want to make Darrell a portal to Darnassus…

  96. 96
    jh says:

    Maybe we can create a Baloon Juice guild so I don’t have to be three times older than most of my guildmates. I absolutely hate it when one of them asks me how old I am.

    WOW Noob here. I have a level 9 Mage and am already addicted.

    A BJ guild would be way cool.

  97. 97
    dreggas says:

    Just as our generation began to be relevant when comic books were the rage, yours will triumph with the advent of video games. And your kids will reach the final pinnacle of human achievement thanks to MySpace and huffing household cleaners.

    Aren’t we already there between Foley and Bush AIM and Cocaine?

  98. 98
    Perry Como says:

    That’s pre-1/16 thinking there. Burning Crusade changed everything.

    Blood Elf pally FTW!

    I started over the holidays. 7 days of play time and my SM/Ruin lock is at 47. I’ll pick up BC once I hit 60. Warcrack indeed.

  99. 99
    dreggas says:

    A BJ guild would be way cool really suck.

    Just couldn’t help myself….

  100. 100
    Cyrus says:

    60 druid/rogue, 42 mage, 41 lock here, all AC except the last, but the only chars I’ve played in the past few months are the druid and the lock.

    So what servers are everyone on? Dalaran, Drenden and Gnomeregan, in my case. I’m happy with my current guilds, but it might be fun to group up some time.

  101. 101
    SeesThroughIt says:

    My father In Law has several with almost every NES game made.

    Tell your father in law to give up an NES and the following games, and nobody gets hurt:
    Super Mario Bros. 1-3
    Mega Man 2
    Tecmo Super Bowl
    Pro Wrestling
    Ice Hockey
    Base Wars
    Blaster Master
    Castlevania 2

  102. 102
    dreggas says:

    SeesThroughIt Says:

    My father In Law has several with almost every NES game made.

    Tell your father in law to give up an NES and the following games, and nobody gets hurt:
    Super Mario Bros. 1-3
    Mega Man 2
    Tecmo Super Bowl
    Pro Wrestling
    Ice Hockey
    Base Wars
    Blaster Master
    Castlevania 2

    BWAHAHAHAHA NEVER!

    Wow with the exception of base wars and pro-wrestling I had all of those games…man I miss them.

  103. 103
    tBone says:

    Wow. Smells like nerd in here.

    Now if you’ll excuse me, I need to go pick a virtual nose with my wiimote in Wario Ware.

  104. 104
    Andrei says:

    Ok… I now am conflicted. Who more potent at thread jacking?… Darrell or Jenniebee?

    /discuss.

    Hit lvl 62 last night on my druid. Loving all the new feral gear in the game.

  105. 105
    Zifnab says:

    Depends on who is running the game, personally I tend to encourage more roleplay with less combat when DMing but that’s just me.

    But WoD is specifically geared towards social situations. You can make some cracked out social characters with entire power trees devoted to talking your way to victory. D&D just doesn’t have that, unless you count some of the more squirly combos of Diplomacy, high level charm spells, and Prestige Classes. There’s no “BAB” or “hit dice” in WoD. Even late game, a maxed out character can go down like a sack of bricks if a lucky thug takes you out with a baseball bat to the head. But a 20th level D&D Wizard can box a 1st level Fighter out, just because the Wizard has way more hit-points and a much higher to-hit for being high level.

    It’s not that you can’t roleplay in D&D and in fact my DM will bend the rules quite a bit to accomidate a good character plot or dramatic interlude. We’ve got a standing “Three text bubbles before you die” rule that lets dieing mentors and comrades and villians get in a last word after they’ve taken those last fatal points of damage. But the game is simple geared towards cracking heads and we’ve generally come to accept that.

  106. 106
    Krista says:

    Gad, evidently we needed a gaming thread a long time ago. It’s like a geeksplosion in here…

  107. 107
    dreggas says:

    Zif,

    Of course there is that but in general I use an assassination rule where you can conceivable assassinate said wizard with a level 1 char so long as you can get close enough and not be noticed. Having to keep rolling to hits when you are making a “hit” is ridiculous.

  108. 108
    Fledermaus says:

    Since this has turned into a nerd contest I’m just going to take a moment to point everyone to Home of the Underdogs. They have 100s of old games available for free download.

  109. 109
    FU says:

    the video game discussion is HIGHLY annoying. don’t you guys already have , like, a billion message boards/blogs/usenet where you can discuss all of this?

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    Gear up for grub with a tripleheader of pigskin, including a meeting of brothers in Dallas. Everybody knows it’s been a rough year for her, but find out who else had issues

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