This dovetails nicely with the post below:
Republicans do not cede control of Congress for nearly two months, but money, power and influence are already beginning to change hands. The political economy, at least here in the capital, is humming for Democrats.
Democratic lobbyists are fielding calls from pharmaceutical companies, the oil and gas industry and military companies, all of which had grown accustomed to patronizing Republicans, as the environment in Washington abruptly shifts.
Take, for example, Vic Fazio, a California Democrat who rose through the ranks of Congress and reveled in the majority for all but 4 of his 20 years in office. In his second career as a lobbyist, Mr. Fazio did not experience the pleasures of Democratic rule — until now. Suddenly he is in demand.
For Mr. Fazio, who is close to Representative Nancy Pelosi, the California Democrat who is set to become House speaker, the power switch is, quite simply, good for business. Companies are scrambling to fortify lobbying teams with well-connected Democrats.
Draining the swamp isn’t going to be easy- especially with Murtha as your Number Two.
SPIIDERWEB™
Its impossible with Murtha as the number two. He’s a horrible choice.
cleek
that Pelosi could be that blind to the optics of this is baffling – especially given that the Dems won largely due to people’s frustration with Republican corruption. her first act is to put corrupt Democrats in positions of power ? WTF ?
ThymeZone
I linked to this piece in the preceding thread. If even half of it is true, Pelosi is being a damned fool supporting Murtha.
I don’t get it. Can anyone here play this game, etc?
Out of 230 people, she can’t find somebody who can do the job without being a lightning rod for ethical criticism?
demimondian
Um, folks? You do realize that what we’re doing is how we change Pelosi’s mind? If you really care, and if your rep-elect is a D, (mine is, and fairly senior, at that), then do what I’m going to do: Make a phone call to his/her office and ask that he/she vote against Murtha, explaining that you’ll sit the next one out if he’s made ML.
grumpy realist
I think it’s a case of who’s been out making a fuss about the war and our need to Do Something. Murtha has and has the clout. Few others have.
Pelosi is just making a calculation that the average American is more miffed about the mess in Iraq than the mess in earmarks, right now. And if Murtha can actually help pull us OUT of Iraq with a minimum of bloodshed, well, there’s a lot people will be willing to forgive him for.
Zifnab
Please. Every Democratic seriously up for consideration has been in office since ’94, and every Dem in office since ’94 has had pork on his or her hands. You think Hoyer is clean? You think Conyers or Rangel wouldn’t be receiving the exact same criticism? This reeks of “John Kerry, third most absurdly liberal Senator in Congress!” style whining. “John Murtha sooooooooo much more porky than every other rep. in the House.”
We blow $8 billion a month in Iraq and you object to a man who shot through $110 million in the Defense Bill for the year. In 1994.
If spending 12 years in the wilderness can’t change a man enough to get him to lay off the pork for a term, then we might as well toss up our hands and keep blindly voting Republican.
Murtha’s got clout, he’s got creds, and he’s got balls. Everything you would have asked for in a Democratic Majority Leader six months ago. But he’s got a voting record on appropriations that doesn’t meet your standards, and its out the window? Get your priorities straight.
ThymeZone
I think the buzz is going to be about Abscam, not pork.
The grainy video is all over the place today.
Like I said, this is an unforced error, and completely unnecessary.
demimondian
TZ — the grainy video is of him *rejecting* a bribe, remember. Presumably, the FBI had the best tempter they could find, and he didn’t fall. That’s not a bad thing at all.
The Other Steve
I guess I’m far more pragmatic.
I’m not opposed 100% to lobbying. I’m opposed to lobbying being abused. That is, lobbyists writing bills, or bribing, or lavisciously handing out perks, etc.
But simply arguing for what their industry or group wants/needs… by itself that’s fine. As long government is involved in taxing and regulating corporations and such, you are going to have lobbyists.
So I want to see them put lobbying back in check. Make it clear that if the company wants something, they need to explain how it benefits the American people, and/or what they’re going to do for the American people… not for a single congress critter.
That’s what I want to see. We’ll see.
Pb
Given the choice, I’d rather have Murtha as majority leader than Hoyer, although a third option would be nice. But for some reason I don’t recall quite this much furor in the media when the shoe was on the other foot–not with Bill Frist, and perhaps not even in the house with Blunt and Boehner. Damn liberal media!
demimondian
No, Pb, we ran as reformers. We need to reform ourselves. I don’t know whether John Murtha is dirty or not — it doesn’t really matter. The D’s need to set a higher bar; no book deals, no bribes, no nothing. I doubt that he’s guilty, but…it isn’t worth the cost.
The Other Steve
As far as Murtha goes… This is what the GOP is going to use:
http://www.politicspa.com/FEATURES/baileylttomurtha.htm
The Other Steve
I do agree on that.
Pb
demimondian,
???
Look, is Murtha being accused of anything current, or at all relevant to the position of majority leader? ABSCAM was decades ago, but you know what? Murtha turned down a bribe. He wasn’t indicted, he wasn’t prosecuted, and he was re-elected at the time. Why should I care again? In other news, Gerry Studds slept with a page!
No book deals? Is ‘book deals’ some sort of lobbying term that I’m unfamiliar with?
Right, because the mere allegation is bad enough, better to throw him under the bus with Max Cleland. Remind me to stick a picture of you next to Osama bin Laden’s sometime–you’ll never get elected to dogcatcher!
ThymeZone
Uh, no, I’d say that is a rather generous interpretation.
It’s a video of a guy who is sniffing around something that stinks and appears to be interested.
That’s the way it looks, and it fits right in with Murtha’s reputation as a backroom kinda guy.
Even if you (generic you) can mount a lawyerly “No controlling legal authority” defense, which is pretty much all you have in this case, you lose. This is about appearances, not guilt proven in a courtroom. The public hasn’t time to read the briefs and take testimony. It wants people to look and sound and act squeaky clean.
That’s what they want, and Dems should give it to them without trying to dance around it. Nothing about Murtha and this post is important enough to put us through this kind of crap. This is just stupid.
Pb
I’ll agree with that, at least.
ThymeZone
Crap! Another agreement, another argument thwarted.
I am losing my touch. A shadow of my former self.
Zifnab
This is the bottom line. Murtha stood up on the Iraq War, the issue that won us the election in ’06 (and should have won us the election in ’04).
If Republicans want to talk about backroom deals and sleazy political tricker, then by all means we can talk about backroom deals and sleazy political trickery. As it stands, the election is over. Democrats don’t have to worry about saving face and looking clean. They have to worry about getting the job done. If Murtha can deliver our troops out of Iraq, if he is influential in raising the minimum wage, implimenting the 9/11 Commission recommendations, and investigating war profiteering, then I say go for it. He stood up when Hoyer sat on his hands. And if we need to choose between Hoyer and Murtha, I say we go with Murtha. Bottom line.
Besides, the Republicans are bitching about it, so you know its the right move.
Pb
Hey, how about that war, how’s that going…
…Roadside bomb, car bomb, gunmen attack, mortar rounds, workers abducted, bodies found…
Ah, here we go!
We got another number two guy!
…body found, suspects detained, fire exchanged, cop killed, big car bomb, reporter shot, soldiers died, more bodies found…
mrmobi
Please, get a hold of yourself. You know, all we did two weeks ago was win an election. The rules are still the same, the system is still FUBAR, so let’s not get our panties in a bunch about Dems holding themselves to higher standards. Let’s just hope they don’t offer payments to lobbyists on the floor of the House of Representatives, as BOEHNER did.
Show me the crime that Murtha committed, show me the indictments, show me anthing but a couple-decades old grainy video of him rejecting a bribe and we can talk.
Warts and all, Murtha will be a better Democratic spokesman on the Iraq problem that anyone else we have, and he was the first Dem with military credibility to say the situation was a failure, and to call for redeployment. In short, he’s got balls, and he’s not afraid to use them. It doesn’t hurt that he’s a genuine war-hero, either.
Do you guys know that there is not one middle-east expert in the Iraq Study Group? I wonder if there are any horse-show organizers?
I could be wrong here, but it seems to me the purpose of this little cabal is to try to pull Chimpy McFlightSuit’s testicles, and, by extension, those of the Republican Party, out of the toaster oven. I know the group is bipartisan, but, I mean, isn’t Sandra Day O’Connor the woman who voted to give the Presidency to this alcoholic fuckup? I’m ready to be disappointed, and I think Dems should really think twice about jumping on the bandwagon for any “solution” these guys come up with.
Mr Furious
Some good points, zifnab. I just wish there was a better option. And I really have to question Pelosi’s judgement.
ThymeZone
I don’t agree, even if the only choice were between Hoyer and Murtha.
However, why in the world should the choice have to be between Hoyer and Murtha? There isn’t anyone else out of 230 people that can do this job?
Political capital is fine, but why throw it away?
Also, I absolutely do not agree that only Murtha can “deliver” troops out of Iraq. Or that he can do this at all. The Bushites are not going to roll over here, and the ISG (Iraq Spin Group) run by Baker was created just for the purpose of putting a firewall between Congress and the White House on this thing.
Murtha did a good job in the last year. Thanks, now go sit down. We have 230 players on this team. It’s not about any of you, it’s about winning the game.
And thank you for speaking up, Z. I thought I’d have nobody to argue with on this now. Like Pelosi and Murtha, we can now win hearts and minds.
capelza
Lott got his old job back, sort of!
I don’t know what to think. I love Murths as a person, I’ll admit that…the statements he made about Iraq changed the way people talk about it, see it. The ABSCAM thing is sketchy, though. He’s a sketchy dude ethically.
Hoyer creeps me out..no rational reason. I’m guilty od not reading up on him more.
ThymeZone
He’s done that, and according to some, helped deliver an election … all without having a leadership post.
Why is the post so important now?
Tom
Bella will live to regret her “drain the swap” boast.
ThymeZone
I ask for time to revise and extend my remarks.
I think the answer to my last question is, deals were made and promises given in the last year, and markers are now being called in.
While some — including me — said at first, this is business as usual in Washington, now that the Abscam thing is the official trailer for this movie, it’s time to rethink.
Just saying “we won, get over it” doesn’t feed my bulldog. If we can’t even pretend to put ethics ahead of politics for one frigging week, then …. what exactly did we win?
capelza
Tom:
Bella? And are you confused about which body Nancy will be the Speaker of?
Pb
Yeah, she isn’t that pretty. Fortunately, that’s not a job requirement, or we’d end up with Congresswoman Paris Hilton or something.
mrmobi
Murtha may have ethical problems, possibly serious ones. But I’m a “you go with the guy who got you here” kind of person, and I think we would not have won this election without Murtha coming out against the war.
Oh, and Iraq Spin Group is perfect. I trust them not at all.
capelza
Pb…my first thought was Bella Abzug. A not so subtle “feminazi” referance by Tom. But I could be wrong.
Pb
ThymeZone,
First, like it or not, the choice is between Hoyer and Murtha. I’m not thrilled about it either, but I don’t see that changing. Second, I want Pelosi to pick someone she’s comfortable with and confident in, someone she can trust. And on that front, I think she should pick Murtha over Hoyer. And finally… what’s the huge ethics problem here again, and for that matter what makes you think that Hoyer would necessarily be that much better, if at all?
Pb
capelza,
I’m guessing someone can’t even spell ‘Bela’ (as in “Bela Lugosi”), which rather ruins the original joke…
capelza
Pb…I didn’t even think of that! I guess if Tom is trying to be snide, he needs to be a little clearer. Too many dastardly cultural referneces.
So I went to the tv to watch this and like I said earlier, the focus right now is on Lott winning the Minority whip post. The more things change, the more they stay….
ThymeZone
Wow, that’s a lot of material. The “choice” is whatever Pelosi says it is. And she can change it five minutes from now. It’s all her deal. And she’s off to a terrible start here. Whether YOU like it or not, I think the way the average person is going to see this is the way the WaPo article describes it. Shady, smelly, and most of all, completely unnecessary.
Second, I want Pelosi to walk her own talk. She wants to drain the swamp? Fine, then don’t pick an old crocodile with a lot of baggage to be your right hand. For crissakes.
And finally, I’m not arguing for Hoyer. I’m arguing for somebody else entirely. Yes, this is an ethics story right now, and whether WE like it or not, that’s the way the news cycles are going to play it. Saying “I’m sticking with my loyal man here” is a Bushism, and I for one am sick of that kind of crap in government.
A lot of people worked their asses off to put Pelosi in the situation she has today. Not just Murtha. She has a duty to all of those people, which includes us. The question is bigger than her and Murtha, and she needs to be bigger than her and Murtha.
Tsulagi
The stuff coming to the fore about Murtha, if true, is disappointing. The Abscam video? Game over on that one. You might not like the calls the refs made 26 years ago, some Pubs still can’t get over Clinton wasn’t impeached, but it’s done. The only buzz that video will get will be on Red State type blogs preaching to the core base, not with the population.
The earmarks and other pork? Look into it. Could be something there, but I just have this feeling that if there was something substantial Pubs would have brought it out long ago against Murtha given his attacks on the admin. Especially after Abramoff to feed the “Dems do it too, and they’re even worse” meme. And more still in the last weeks before the midterms when it seemed a Ney a week was coming out from the Pub side.
Pelosi picking Murtha makes political sense. Looking closer at the candidates, Hoyer seems way too Liebermanesque. Also, if the House is going to push Iraq and areas like warrantless NSA wiretapping, Pelosi needs a strong foil. Abscam video will die in a few days, but for the next two years the Pub base will be painting Pelosi as the wild-eyed liberal feminazi with San Francisco values. She needs someone at her back who can take the hits, not someone like a Lieberman who joins in the attacks.
Pelosi could blunt the Murtha criticisms by forming a strong ethics committee. With a decree that anyone, including Murtha, found ethically challenged would be forced out of a leadership position. That could be her deal with Murtha.
ThymeZone
New thread title:
Dems drain GOP swamp, install new Dem swamp.
Groan.
Zifnab
All in favor? “Aye” All opposed? “Nay”
The Ayes have it.
Psh… this parlimentary procedure thing ain’t so hard.
That’s something I can regularly get behind.
I was waiting for one of these. Thank you Pb.
ThymeZone
So, out of 230 possibilities (approxmiately), the only choices are Hoyer, Murtha, and a strawman named Alfalfa Lieberman?
Well, that explains it.
TenguPhule
Shorter Version: Some people don’t like Murtha because of things he may have done 20 years ago and are carrying water for GOP attack points without bothering to consider that there’s not any confirmation of Murtha doing anything wrong recently. Never mind that he’s built up credibility, never mind that NONE of this was brought up during the GOP attack on him when he first suggested changing course.
I say give Murtha a try, it’s not like he can possibly do a worse job then the current POS there. If he starts screwing around afterwards, then count me in on the firing squad, *not* before.
Zifnab
Denny Hastert bigger? Hehe, now you’ve got me thinking of Congressional fatties.
Zifnab
Ok, ThymeZone. You wouldn’t be talking this crap unless you had a name in mind. Who do you want to see as Democratic Majority Leader for ’06?
Tsulagi
Then tell me about someone else to consider who has the votes and backing to become Majority Leader. I like to deal with reality, not with an unending Diogenes quest for the pure man/woman.
Pb
ThymeZone,
Great. Me too. But when that doesn’t happen, who do you pick, and why? And yes, there is a lot of backstory here, which is important to understanding the possible rationales for picking one over the other, i.e., the best man for the job. For example:
Or:
ThymeZone
So, your argument is that Pelosi can only come up with two names out of 230, and unless I can supply an alternative …
Uh, no. I think Perlosi can come up with a third name without my help. But I’m flattered.
tBone
Just to throw some more logs on the fire here – CREW is none too happy about Murtha’s nomination. More here, and all of the gory details here.
Of course, CREW is run by noted rightwing hack Melanie Sloan, so take with a grain of salt.
ThymeZone
Pssh. Give it up, man. Like I have nothing to do for two months but vet candidates.
Your argument appears to be that Pelosi can’t find another choice, and the proof is that I can’t find one.
Not my job. Her job.
tBone
Gah, forgot about the three-link rule, which will make this comment redundant when my previous post emerges from moderation hell. Anyway, interesting reading from those crazy rightwing shills at CREW.
The Other Steve
I’ve now read four or five descriptions of the video, and it all seems subject to interpretation.
Arab guy offers Murtha a bribe if he’ll help a Sheik gain residency. Murtha says no thanks, but if you want to invest in the community here are the names of a couple of banks.
My interpretation of it was… Murtha won’t take bribes. However he can be swayed to support someone if they are doing good deeds and oh by the way if you want to do good deeds, my district could sure use some help.
I don’t see anything wrong there. I mean the guy was hooked into a sting operation, and rather than playing along, he redirected the topic away from illegal actions towards something positive. I mean, sure he could have said he was all outraged, but you also have to factor in that he probably saw this as a cultural difference and was trying to explain to the guy how he could help his case legally.
Doesn’t matter… the FBI didn’t press charges, because he did nothing wrong.
What he got in supposed trouble for by the House Ethics committee, is there’s a law that says if someone offers you a bribe you are supposed to report it immediately to the FBI. Apparently he didn’t do the immediate reporting, and kind of just casually mentioned it later.
That’s it. That’s the big scandal.
This isn’t even close to Tom Delay funneling money into his Children’s Charity which happened to employ his family and gave access to Republicans. And yet Tom Delay is still a big hero with the REpublicans. Here he is posting to the front page at redstate.com
I think the claims that Murtha is corrupt are stretching credibility. Until I see something more substantial as evidence.
The Other Steve
Ok, that’s more substantial.
I think the fact that Murtha has opposed lobbying reform is a job killer to me. Same with Hoyer.
Tsulagi
What I want more than anything out of this new Congress is fucking competence and spine in dealing with the six years of shit Bush has dumped on this country. If someone is proven at some point to be ethically challenged, whack them out of a leadership position or worse. Then move on.
What I don’t want as a reward for voting Democrat is a bunch of sheep who spend their time trying to please Republicans rather than governing. “Oh, the Pubs have said we’re not nice so let’s spend all our time on guilt cleansing and trying to show them they’re wrong.” Screw that.
Zifnab
I know this may seem incredible and beyond human reconning, but perhaps Pelosi did, in fact, consider other people for the job before she settled on endorsing Murtha. Perhaps, after days of agnonizing soul searching and deep investigator research, she came to the conclusion that Murtha was, in fact, the best man for the job out of all 230 selectable applicants.
If you think she’s wrong, that she’s overlooked a prime candidate for the position out of Good ol’ Boy tradition or a misguided standard, then speak up. Would Waxman make a better Majority Leader? Udall? Lewis? Perhaps she should pick a newly elected Congressman who’s just run a stellar campaign – an outsider who’s hands are clean. Perhaps she should pick a hard conservative Dem from one of the Republican stronghold states like Tennesse or Florida. But if you’ve got a better idea, then speak up, and if its good, I’ll be the first one to e-mail Pelosi in support.
If it’s between Murtha, Hoyer, Alfalfa Lieberman, and Squeekypants McThymezonespick, I’m going to go with the candidate I like the best that actually exists. I’m still going with Murtha.
ThymeZone
Yes, I think she’s wrong because she picked a guy with ugly baggage when there is no reason to do so.
That’s pretty much the whole point of the story and the threads today.
The counter arguments appear to be “You can’t name another candidate,” as if that were relevant, and “We won .. get over it.”
Not exactly convincing arguments.
Zifnab
And with those words, Red State has just lost all credibility as a blog with even a shred of dignity. Happy Birthday. You’re in bed with Political Satan. Enjoy Hell.
Zifnab
Fixed.
Pb
ThymeZone,
No, I’m saying, when Pelosi *doesn’t* pick someone else, then who do you pick between Hoyer and Murtha, and why? Then, go read the rest of my post again for context regarding that choice.
No, my argument is that Pelosi *isn’t* going to find another choice. She’s already found her choice, and it seems that there are only two names up for consideration at the moment, period.
DoubtingThomas
Give me a break PPgaz! You have all the time in the world! I’ve been reading BJ since the 04 elections and you are all over every post everywhere using one name or the other, so you obvisouly have a hell of lot more time on your hands than you claim.
You seem to be swiftboating Murtha and for some odd reason think the public elected Democrats to clean up congress–they didn’t. They elected Democrats to help get us the hell out of Iraq. Murtha appeals to a lot of independent, military and republican people out there, yet he’s a LOYAL democrat who has the balls to stand for something. That’s what people see. They won’t give a damn about a 26 year old scandal or pork going to his consituents.
ThymeZone
Yes, “Anybody but Murtha” is the correct response.
When you have a pool of 230, and you pick one, and he has a problem, the next move is called “Somebody else.”
Very simple. And if you are supposedly qualified to be third in line for the presidency of the United States, the name of Somebody Else is about a 30-minute problem. You have your staff make a few calls, and you’re done.
On the other hand, if you’re a blogger, you engage in blogorrhea tactics all day and fiddle while your adversaries set fires all over Rome. Whatever.
John Cole had it right at the last line of this thread’s original post.
Sorry. It’s an unnecessary and unforced error. If Nancy Pelosi can’t do better than this, we’re in big trouble.
ThymeZone
Fuck off, what is the matter with you? You know nothing about me or my life, you arrogant fuck.
ThymeZone
Heh, that remains to be seen. And if she doesn’t, the results remain to be seen.
That’s not exactly a cogent argument for not making another choice.
That’s about as good as saying George Bush isn’t pulling out of Iraq, so there is no other good choice but to stay in there. Because, you know, you don’t have a better plan. We won, get over it. Sound familiar?
Perry Como
Does anyone else find it funny that Trent Lott is going to be the “minority whip”? Just sayin’…
Zifnab
Dude. Chill.
ThymeZone
Excuse me? Did you read the shit that I was responding to?
I am arguing about politics, and I am supposed to take that kind of crap? I don’t think so.
DoubtingThomas
So it’s okay for you to make a flippant remark when asked your views on who would be an acceptable choice for Majority Leader and when someone responds with an equally flippant remark about your prolific posting habits, you resort to Free Republic-style name calling?
Classy.
Decided FenceSitter
The man said you had a lot of time to spend on the web. And you escalated to cursing and insults.
Dude. Chill.
Zifnab
All I’m saying is if Strom Thurman was the minority whip, the Senate would be a totally different place.
Darrell
You must be new here. Dem posters at BJ make Free Republic posters sound like a sunday school class.
ThymeZone
It’s not a “flippant” remark, asshole. I have neither the time nor the responsibility to come up with an alternative after two hours of being in on this story. It’s flippant to suggest that I should come up with a name, and it’s dogshit to start trash talking me and my available time in response, especially when you know precisely nothing about that subject.
This topic is not about whether there are other people who can fill the subject post. That’s a given and it’s asinine to suggest otherwise. The subject is whether Pelosi has made an error in judgement. I assert that she has, and the amount of time I have or don’t have isn’t anywhere near relevant to that question, nor is it any of your fucking business.
The Other Steve
Delay should be someone who is now radioactive. Instead they embrace him.
That shows you where their priorities lie. They don’t care about reform, or corruption. Rather they embrace corruption as a first principle of the party.
ThymeZone
That’s your opinion. Mine is that he escalated a political discussion into a personal examination of me and my “time on the web” which is neither relevant nor any of his fucking business. I’m not taking that shit from him, or you.
The Other Steve
Get real. The Free Republic posters send anthrax letters to celebrities and Democratic leadership.
We’re not even close to those guys.
ThymeZone
Welcome to the new Dem PR department. “Republicans are worse!”
I like it, it’s time-tested and road-proven.
ThymeZone
That’s right, and we can’t even get weaponized anthrax.
CaseyL
Pelosi wants Murtha, she should have Murtha.
Murtha has balls. Murtha went out and put the boot to the Bushists on Iraq long before it was safe or fashionable to do so.
Murtha also spends his weekends at Walter Reed, visiting the maimed and wounded.
I frankly don’t give a damn what he did 26 freaking years ago.
Zifnab
No no, man. That was just a BJ guy mascarading as a Free Republic user after years of undercover work designed specifically to give right-wing blogs a bad reputation in a grand conspiracy with the communist media.
Also, here’s your pie.
ThymeZone
After a year and a half being referred to as “scum” by you, that is a little hard to take, Darrell.
jcricket
Fixed.
Darrell
Delay is old news. Why in the hell did they put Trent Lott in the #2 Senate slot is what I want to know
ThymeZone
That’s what I said last week.
However, that was before I saw the video and read the WaPo story.
See Cole’s one-sentence summary, top of this thread.
The Other Steve
GFY
ThymeZone
Because all Republicans are racists?
capelza
That Delay post at RedState was interesting in the responses, though..he wasn’t exactly greeted with loving praise by quite a few of the commenters.
The Other Steve
Oh come on. What he said was hardly racist!
Zifnab
Mmmmm… taste that pie. Goes down smooth.
Darrell
Sure you are. First, is there anything linking him to Free Republic other than the ever so credible ‘raw story’ source? And second, it wasn’t anthrax.
The Other Steve
Did they get banned?
The Other Steve
Darrell was for sending Anthrax before he was against it.
ThymeZone
Ah, your semi-annual attempt to smear Dems with that photo.
It’s worked so well in the past.
ThymeZone
God, that’s lame.
If there were a point system here, 0 – 10, on that exchange alone the score would be:
TZ 75*
TOS -240
*Associated Press has declared TZ the winner with one precinct reporting.
TenguPhule
WaPo has Credibility when it comes to reporting on Democrats now? News to me.
Zifnab
Ok, this proves it. Darrell is just a Thymezone spoof. There’s no way Darrell jumps in literally minutes after TZ starts feeling the heat from the board. Nice Tokyo Rose TZ, but we’re not falling for it this time.
No pie for you.
Darrell
Didn’t Robert Byrd call him a white nigger?
ThymeZone
TOS, you couldn’t win an argument with me if I gave you 25 staff writers and a month’s head start.
But don’t take it personally, I love you, man.
Darrell
Hey, it’s better than TOSser’s attempt to smear all of Free Republic out of a Raw Story report of 1 guy who MAY OR MAY NOT have ever posted at Free Republic
mrmobi
Really, Gruppenfuhrer Darrell, can’t you come up with something other than this tired old shit? Are you getting enough sleep between fire-bombings? How are those plans for immigrant death camps coming?
I have no problem with Free Republic posters, though. They are the best National Socialists they can be.
Zifnab
You’re right, of course. It was just a white powdery substance inside an envelope with a hate letter in it. After the entire APD flipped out over a roll of quarters with laundry detergant at UT Austin, I can totally see how this looks like an overreaction by comparison.
And when Keith Olbermann pegs the story on Countdown, you know there was absolutely no follow-up research done into it. All one big BJ/Rawstory spoof. How do people keep falling for this.
Andrew
(1) We wanted to attend that rally, Darrell, but we were all out on our monthly recreational abortion trip.
(2) You’re absolutely right. Fake anthrax is no big deal.
(3) Indeed, I hear fake anthrax makes for a tasty pie filling.
Darrell
Can’t you sh*tstains come up with anything more creative and intelligent than comparing me to Nazis? Godwin bitch..
Zifnab
Such language. It clearly demonstrates a pent up hostility brought on by years of FOX News, Malkin blogs, and Laura Ingram phone pranks. Please don’t send me any letters filled with hate mail and white powdery substances or I will be required to report you to the police.
tBone
Mmmmmm-mmmmm. Warm, flakey pie. It’s Darrellicious!™
Darrell
Of course, because a Keith Olbermann is soooo credible. Do loons ever think for yourselves, or just recite talking points?
TenguPhule
Irony is not dead.
mrmobi
Ok, TZ and John Cole, I’ve got a question for you.
When Murtha voiced his opinion that Iraq was hopelessly fucked up and we needed to redeploy our troops, it seems to me Republicans came after him pretty hard. I saw that Abscam tape then, and had to endure someone here making the claim that Murtha wasn’t even a real war hero. (completely false, he’s the real deal)
My question is: Is that all they could come up with? If he’s so corrupt, where’s the fucking evidence? Do you guys really want Democrats to avoid choosing anyone for a leadership position because there might be the appearance of impropriety?
Pelosi didn’t endorse Murtha because she’s looking for a saint. She needs someone with guts and credibility on military issues, and she needs someone who can’t be accused of being weak on defense. If this election was about anything, it was about ending the Iraq war. Make no mistake, this administration is going to put a lot of effort into making that end the Dems “fault,” notwithstanding the Party of Torture’s complete inability to manage any aspect of the aftermath of the fall of Baghdad. That’s what the Iraq Spin Group is for, after all.
I assume there will be plenty of opportunity, once the Abramov thing comes to completion, to slam corrupt Democrats, and I applaud and will join in those efforts, but this is premature.
Good luck with your search for Democratic saints.
Tulkinghorn
Ummm… why not go on the various sites and do the searches yourself? It is pretty persuasive, if you have eyes to see.
As for the balaclava-clad protesters, why do you think they are leftists, or bloggers or whatnot? They could be false-flag operatives of GOP, seeing as it is well established that they go in for that sort of thing. And it is a false comparison, anyway –> repugnant, even seditious speech is not terrorism, mailing ‘anthrax’ is.
mrmobi
TZ, you know better than that. Both swamps are still there, but the Dem swamp is (or will be) full of fatter crocs.
If you think this is going to change any time soon, you need a new drug. I suggest running. It’s cheap, and the human body has a seemingly inexhaustible supply of some crap called endorphins. The down side is it takes a lot of time and people in cars don’t understand concepts like “pedestrians always have the right of way.” Other than that, you get fucked up, man!
The Other Steve
Ahh. Obsessed with winning arguments. That would explain why you spent a day defending that Chocolate City comment.
The Other Steve
I don’t think the guy who uses newsmax.com as a source for information can accurately judge credibility.
Trent
As is O’Reily, Rush, Hanity, Coutler, etc, etc.
ThymeZone
Nice try, but BZZT. Wrong. I argued with you about it because you were, and are, totally full of shit on the subject. Your understanding of racism is about as deep as a one-ply piece of toilet paper.
Occam’s Razor, my good man. Don’t try to make these things more complicated than they are.
Tsulagi
As an aside, I read the DeLay post over at RedState and skimmed the comments. Will say I was impressed that more than a few of the commenters called bullshit on DeLay.
DoubtingThomas
I made a flippant remark about your prolific posting habits because you made a dismissive remark to Pb who seemed to be genuinely interested in who you thought might be a good Majority Leader. While it may not have been relevant to the original post, I, like Pb, was genuinely interested to hear who you thought might be a good choice for Majority Leader of the party. You chose to respond to Pb dismissivly when you could have responded as you eventually did here:
I responded to what I thought was a flippant, dismissive response to Pb with a bad attempt at humor a la John Kerry. I was tongue-in-cheek pointing out that you obviously have time to think and post about things and therefore probably had an opinion on who should be ML. I hardly think that’s escalting a political discussion into a personal examination of you, but I apologize if you took it that way. I don’t care how much you post. I often agree with your views and know you are intelligent and care about the direction of the nation. But it is hard not to dismiss you when you respond with 4 letter words, ridicule and arrogance.
Finally, when you post things like this:
It’s hard to see any difference between you and Darrell. And, as usual, you and Darrell have yet again succeeded in monopolizing another thread. I’ll just shut up now. You can put another hash mark in your “I Won the Argument” column.
Zifnab
The guys at the end of your link seem to think so.
Also, regarding your Shoot the Officers image, Darrell, it’s important to know that Republicans never misrepresent themselves or their political rivals.
cleek
My interpretation of it was… Murtha won’t take bribes. However he can be swayed to support someone if they are doing good deeds and oh by the way if you want to do good deeds, my district could sure use some help.
err, no. he turns down the bribes because he knows it’s incriminating to be found with a big wad of cash. he tells them to sprinkle it around his district so that it can’t be traced back to him.
and then he avoided prosecution because the Dems leadership at the time torpedeod the investigation.
Murtha is a hideous choice – he brings to the discussion not only his own involvement in Abscam, his own sleaziness, but also the taint of the corrupt Democratic leadership of the 80s.
ThymeZone
Funny. Yeah, some heat. Whee-ew.
Basically, here’s where we’re at: I said pretty much exactly what the WaPo story I cited said, and what John Cole was apparently alluding to, and stood my ground.
So far in this thread, I’ve seen not even one sentence of argument with any of that material that would score a point in a game of spin the bottle, much less a political debate.
Here’s the other side:
We won, in their face!
Pelosi can have whoever she wants!
Republicans are worse!
No controlling legal authority said Murtha did anything!
We won, in their face!
You can’t even name another candidate for the job!
Yeah, I’m pretty much devastated by all that fine argumentin’ and analysis.
I’m still going with this. Along with the video, it makes a strong argument that Pelosi has put on her Manolos and stepped directly into dogshit, after setting herself up with the foolish “drain the swamp” boast. All for nothing, as far as I can tell, other than pure Inside the Beltway power action.
I’m saying what’s quite obvious here, and taking the extraordinary additional step of sticking to my guns.
Tom
Drain the swamp!
Chili
It really shouldn’t be this hard to understand why Pelosi is doing this.
Pelosi and Murtha go way back, have extensive history. Pelosi and Hoyer have always been at odds with each other.
Is this a smart move? Doesn’t look like it, but I’m not sure it’s indicative of Pelosi’s general style. I’ve watched Pelosi for a long time. She is my congresswoman. She’s actually very practical. I think this is more of a “thank you” than any thing else.
ThymeZone
Uh huh. That’s loser talk for “you won’t give up even after a bunch of us told you how wrong you are.”
What’s the matter, did you run out of steam on your “all the time you spend” on the Internet argument? How about a few thousand well chosen words from you on how I spend my time, what my schedule is, what my daily activities are, and what it all means? Come on, let’s do it. You go first.
What am I doing right now, for example? Careful, don’t be too graphic.
Krista
TZ – you’re just having way too much fun right now, aren’t you?
DougJ
Third, it was just a prank, just like that mass abduction in Iraq yesterday.
Moonbats: I sentence you to 30 days of watching “Punk’d” for not having a sense of humor.
Krista
Not that my opinion will affect anything in the least, but I do think that considering that a big strike against the GOP was the corruption angle, the Dems really should be doing everything they can to avoid even the appearance of impropriety. That being said, politics being what it is, and mudslinging being what it is, it’s going to be damn near impossible to find any long-term politician who HASN’T been accused of unethical behaviour at some point during his/her career. Personally, I don’t think Murtha is the worst choice out there, but if he is chosen, then the Dems need to lay down some clear and transparent ground rules regarding ethics, lobbying, and whatnot, and let people know that they will be enforced, and enforced seriously.
ThymeZone
Actually, no. None whatever.
I’m eating a bowl of ramen and watching three screens.
That’s my typical lunch hour. At any second my frigging Nextel push-to-talk is going to go off and my boss is going to have some numbskull question that he thinks is important enough to interrupt me over.
When this year is over I’ll have spent exactly two days out of cell-talkie-VPN range of the salt mine and I am going to be lucky to get those.
ThymeZone
Krista, have you seen the video?
ThymeZone
Krista, have you seen the Murtha video?
Zifnab
Yeah, if that doesn’t scream criminal misconduct, I don’t know what does. Listen, I’m not thrilled with the guy, but I’m not thrilled with Hoyers either. I’ve been given no other alternatives, not even a profiled suggestion (He’s gotta be 6 feet tall from a southern state and have at least 8 years of House experience) of who would be a more ideal candidate. It’s Murtha, Hoyers, or we just leave the seat blank.
If this wasn’t an ethics debate Murtha would be the man for the job hands down. So, again, unless you have any constructive suggestions, quit your bitching. I don’t see what you could possibly gain from harping on the “Anybody but Murtha” slogan. It didn’t win in ’04. It’s not going to win today.
ThymeZone
Sorry, the thing ate my post, or appeared to, and so I tried again, and got both posts. Don’t know why.
ThymeZone
This is what George Stephanopolopopoplis asked Joe Biden on Sunday wrt the UN appointment.
Biden slowed down and said: My message to the White House is, Mister President, Send.Somebody.Else.
That’s the correct answer in both cases.
Krista
Okay, ’cause for a moment there I thought you were badgering me, and I was going to tell you to go stick it up your bum.
No, I confess to not having seen the video — I don’t have speakers on my computer at work, and am still a few credits shy of my lip-reading diploma, so there wasn’t much point in trying to watch it until I get home tonight. Thus the ambiguity and lack of emphatic opinion in my post.
tBone
I don’t know, but I hope it doesn’t involve pie.
ThymeZone
I’m really more of an opossum. Look for me around the dumpsters after dark.
DoubtingThomas
uuummmm…posting?
Look, this “loser” already conceded and gave you the win. Don’t be a sore winner.
Krista
He would be sore if he stuck a badger up his bum.
tBone
Ah yes, those pesky ethics, always getting in the way of progress. Glad to see we’ve picked up a few ideas from the Republicans.
Seriously, if this wasn’t an ethics debate, why the hell did I bother to vote Democratic last week?
Zifnab
The answer to that one is easy. Send Joe Wilson.
It works on so many levels.
tBone
He’ll get used to it after a couple of years of Dem rule and their crazy gay-badger-on-man laws.
Zifnab
Oh Ricky! We didn’t listen! We. Didn’t. Listen! Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy?!
DougJ
Just to play devil’s advocate here. are we really sure that Jack Murtha wasn’t just playing a prank on that tape? That’s a pretty common fraternity initiation — make the pledges dress up as sheikhs who try to bribe you, then turn down their bribes but say you might do business with them later.
The Other Steve
Interesting… Josh Marshall seems to think Murtha is gonna lose
Don’t worry. My badger hound will go in and get that badger!
TenguPhule
Question to ThymeZone,
Are you aware that Ruth Marcus is not exactly a shining example of integrity? I’ll take her claims with a grain of salt.
ThymeZone
T-Phule (what does that handle mean?) — I make no assertions about the lady at all.
But if there’s an issue with her piece, why not address the piece?
I haven’t seen any material to the effect that she got the facts wrong. Which doesn’t mean it’s not out there, it just means I haven’t seen it.
And most important — she is hardly the core of the story. She is just one wag out of hundreds who are working this story. What does her credibility have to do with anything, and how does it impact what is obvious from the facts on record about the Abscam case and the video?
I don’t see your point.
ThymeZone
Krista, I know you are out there somewhere worrying about my day and well being.
So …. no sooner did I invoke the “boss” word earlier in vain, than sure enough, he contacts me and pulls into a sirling vortex of shit and pain that destroyed the rest of my afternoon.
My reward is that I get to be on call and monitoring a crew of people working late tonight, tomorrow night, Friday night, and Saturday night … until 9:00 pm. Which puts me basically on the clock for the usual 15-18 hours every damned weekday and TBD hours every weekend, every holiday, every vacation day and every sick day for the last several and the forseeable several years until finally my arteries give out and the stents collapse and they carry me out feet first.
Next person who suggests I have too much time on my hands gets a fistburger.
Doing this is like chewing gum while driving a car at 100 miles an hour. It’s just a diversion. If any of you think you can keep up with my frigging schedule right now, you can have my crummy job and the crummy cubicle that goes with it.
ThymeZone
You people are brutal.
That’s why I hang around here.
Krista
It occupies my every waking moment, sweetie.
Try to take it easy — nobody ever laid on their deathbed, wishing that they’d worked more hours.
At least, that’s my excuse for being a lazy arse.
ImJohnGalt
Except for the guy who was trying to find a cure for mortality.
Newport 9
Barbara Walters: What would you do if you found out you only had six months to live?
Isaac Asimov: Type faster.
The Other Steve
Mark Foley and Ted Haggard were trying to find a cure for morality.
Too bad they didn’t hook up, they could have doubled their chances.
Krista
True, but then again, would Asimov have described it as work? Probably not.
Mickey Finn
People have become so accustomed to watching Republicans march in lockstep, the fact that a couple guys wanted the same job caused a tremendous hubbub! What’s this? Politics? I really don’t see how this hurts anybody. Our pathetic press seem to find all kinds of shit wrong with the notion that there might be more than one idea of what’s best for the Dems emanating from those scores of pols. Silly fools.