Josh Marshall explains the scam.
Keith Olbermann comments.
The Washington Post:
This year’s heavy volume of automated political phone calls has infuriated countless voters and triggered sharp complaints from Democrats, who say the Republican Party has crossed the line in bombarding households with recorded attacks on candidates in tight House races nationwide.
Some voters, sick of interrupted dinners and evenings, say they will punish the offending parties by opposing them in today’s elections. But critics say Republicans crafted the messages to delude voters — especially those who hang up quickly — into thinking that Democrats placed the calls.
[…] An Ohio woman, who did not leave her name, called The Washington Post in tears yesterday, saying she could not keep her phone line open to hospice workers caring for her terminally ill mother because of nonstop political robo-calls.
Pamela Lorenz, a retired nurse in Roseville, Calif., called her own experience “harassment as far as I’m concerned” and said, “If I were voting right now, the opponent who’s doing this, he’d be off my list for throwing that much trash.”
Hour after hour and day after day for two weeks, Lorenz’s home has received the same NRCC recorded message attacking Charlie Brown, the Democrat who is challenging Rep. John T. Doolittle (R) in a hard-fought battle in northeastern California. “It is a recorder calling,” Lorenz said. “I can’t call it back to get them to stop.”
WSYR in New York.
The New York Times:
[T]he repeat calls to the same homes have set off a new furor over campaign tactics, with the Democrats claiming the calls violate federal communications rules and are tantamount to harassment. [Lois] Murphy and other Democrats say they have been flooded with complaints from irritated voters who think that the calls are coming from the candidates themselves. Many of the voters had hung up before the message was over, and never heard that it was produced by the Republican Party. […] The Democrats say that a few calls have been made in the early morning or middle of night, and that some voters received several calls minutes apart. Republican officials said that would have happened only if there was a computer glitch.Others, like Ms. Hollis, the Villanova professor, say they have filed complaints with the Federal Communications Commission. Its rules on automated calls require that callers state their identity at the beginning of the message. These calls end with a disclaimer that they were paid for by the Republican committee; no identification is made at the start of the message.
Pundits – especially FOX’s Colmes-lite Juan Williams (ask me how he lost his NPR show) – won’t go near the issue. Sadly the only person who Diane Rehm could get to answer a question directly was Yochi Dreazen of the Wall Street Journal.
Judge for yourself.
norbizness
‘Laws’ are for people and organizations who have not quite reached the apex of sweaty desperation and douchebaggery, apparently.
Mike
At this point, why should we expect the Rethuglicans to anything other than cheat to win, and the Republemmings (I am so happy you are not one any longer John) to do anything other than to be happy about winning without giving a shit about what it is they are actually winning or the methods used to win?
Not that it matters that much at this point anyways. The corporate fascists have reduced elections to a sporting event where it is their team versus their team, winning is the only thing, and those of us who want the game fairly officiated get booed for slowing down the game a small amount in the grand scheme of things.
The only real difference is that the Democratic Party is a symbiont, and the experience is not deadly to the host, and is generally beneficial. The Republican Party (or what it has devolved into. Too bad they don’t believe in evolution…) is a Parasite. Kill the host, who cares.
Mike
I wish you wouldn’t allude to them being douchebags. Really, would you want them next to the vagina of someone you know and love? Rather, describe them as colostomy bags.
It is much more descriptive and accurate.
searp
All – read Juan Cole today, it is amazing.
http://www.juancole.com
Tulkinghorn
Tim-
How did Juan Williams lose his NPR Show(OK, you asked for it)? I thought he bailed for the big bucks at Fox.
Enquiring minds want to know.
trifecta
Semi serious question. The Republicans are supposed to be the “values” party. Why are they so sleazy during campaign season, and where is the disconnect that any self aware person might have?
The ads have been in turn, racist, sexist, homophobic, and outright lies. The lies are the big category. Isn’t bearing false witness in the big list of 10 no no’s God gave us? Why do these folks think bearing false witness is ok to win a congressional seat? Seriously.
Tim F.
As I understand it the FOX cash came after Williams got demoted from host of the show “Talk of the Nation” to beat reporter.
Here’s how it went down from my perspective. Williams had George Soros on right after Soros made his big jump into philanthropy but before he got too heavily invested in partisan politics. You should know that Soros is an extremely…deliberate…speaker…who weighs his words…carefully…before speaking. That’s not great radio, but Soros could practically settle the US debt for one year soyou let him speak. Of course Williams repeatedly insisted on finishing Soros’s sentences, which is not just rude but a major faux pas for a minor league radio host interviewing the guy who personally leveled the economies of Britain and most of southeast Asia. A week or two later Williams gave his final show retrospective.
Bear in mind that I can’t positively link the two. We already knew that Williams was an idiot, so the axe may have already been in motion. Or maybe he screwed the wrong secretary. But if I was Williams’s boss and I had to answer for that kind of interview etiquette I would have left his desk on the curb before the show wrapped.
Zifnab
I vaguely remember him back in the day. Williams wasn’t a bad reporter, but he was hardly one of the greats. I don’t know how he scored the promotion to his own show to begin with.
Keith
He was OK, but a bit of a wuss, until he had a book (and notice how these books all follow the pattern of something like “Upset: How Middle America is Being Angered by People Who Are Too Liberal…And How It’s Worse Than You Think”?), at which point he would get on Fox seemingly just to bitch about how liberals hurt their cause by being too liberal.
Tulkinghorn
i listened to TOTN during that time, but do not remember that show. I thought he did a pretty good job of it. A few interviews, including one with Octavia Butler, were outstanding and memorable some seven years later.
I can’t imagine why he would be so impatient with Soros — standard compression technology would have easily cleaned up the interview after the fact.
OCSteve
Slightly OT:
As I used to hang around here, I thought at least some of you might enjoy this. I just came from my polling place. I did not vote R for the House or the Senate.
I had already pretty much decided I wanted to see Democrats take the House. I really like Steele and would have liked to vote for him. But the thought of McConnell as the Senate majority leader was too much for me in the end. I could not vote for Cardin – I voted for the write in, essentially spoiling my ballot for the Senate.
You folks here probably started me moving in this direction months ago, but the final nudge really came from hilzoy and others at ObWi. The main reasons are the rampant corruption and the spending. I never reached the levels of outrage you hit John, but in the end enough is enough.
I did not vote for the Democrats – I voted against the GOP.
Pb
OCSteve,
Still, that must have been a big decision for you, I really am impressed. I hope for your sake and mine that the Democrats will be more responsible, and that the Republicans will be forced to act more responsible.
Darrell
I understand that. According to Dems, Steele “slavishly” works for the Republican party.
Ask yourself, did the ‘fair and balanced’ media make even 1/10 the stink over that smear as they did over Allen’s ‘macaca’ remark? An honest answer to that question says it all.
Darrell
Btw, I love the left’s selective outrage over Repub robo-calling. As if they don’t do the same thing and more.
Look, nobody likes Robo-calls, but to pretend this is some one-way Republican only tactic to “supress” voters is dishonest as hell. Whatever it takes to work up that self righteous indignation I suppose. This is, after all, the same self absorbed group of aholes who call themselves the “reality based community”.
Zifnab
I can’t blame you. Cardin did very little to wow me on Meet the Press. If it wasn’t for the (D) in front of his name, I doubt I’d have anything more than tacit support for him.
But I do like how Steele seems to want to be a Democrat in name at least. The “Steele Democrat” bumper sticker was a nice touch. And the repeated “gaffs” on CNN and Fox mislabeling him as (D) – Maryland were cute too.
But after hearing Steele talk, its blatantly obvious that he’s in Bush’s pocket. The man couldn’t be more of a Bush-o-phile than if he was an Oval Office intern.
ThymeZone
OC Steve, I hope that if the Dems do in fact take the House today, they make your vote worthwhile. A lot of Republicans are going to do that today and I hope like hell we don’t let them down.
And if you’re in Arizona, the beer is on me.
Darrell
To put in Democrat terms, Steele would be a “slavish” supporter of Bush’s policies.
Rusty Shackleford
It’s Darrell spoofing “Darrell”.
Happy Election Day!
chopper
the first link you provide doesn’t state anything about robocalls being performed by the democratic congressional election apparatus misidentifying themselves.
the second link you provide is by a group who misidentifies themselves, but it’s a union. not the democratic party.
this whole thing ais about how the NRCC is screwing around. stop trying to equivilate the NRCC and a firefighter’s union.
Pb
Unsurprisingly, Republicans don’t think the law applies to them. Well, they’re wrong, but it’s a shame that most print journalists these days don’t take the time to do the research to verify this. It amazes me how they can turn any story into a he-said/she-said story even when there’s a question of law involved–you’d think they could just call a lawyer and ask them for an opinion, or look up and cite the relevant statute, or both!
Zifnab
That wouldn’t be nearly as info-taining.
Pb
Ah, memories. Remember Steele’s remarks to the Baltimore Jewish council, regarding stem cell research?
The Other Steve
I don’t really care Republican versus Democrat, as long as the parties are arguing in good faith.
Yesterday I got into an argument with someone about the debt and deficit, and… they tossed me
this link.
I’m reading this thing… this argument that debt and deficit is good because it gives the people more money. It’s off into la la land. Yet apparently, this opinion has become pretty mainstream amongst the Republican party. The guy is in bed with QandO, Hugh Hewitt and other websites.
Zifnab
Wow. Just…. wow.
The Other Steve
Apparently Darrell is now admitting that calling the kid macaca was a bad thing.
The Other Steve
It looked to me like something written in Pravda. Like reading an article about how efficient soviet farming is.
Pb
The Other Steve,
Wow. Apparently George H. W. Bush’s recession is that guy’s model of a strong economy (averaging a 4% of GDP yearly deficit each year even when including the Social Security surpluses, more like 4.9% without them, and ~44% of GDP in debt (40.6%-48.1% increasing)), or maybe Bush I’s problem was that he didn’t take us far enough into debt! And damn that Bill Clinton for ever giving us a surplus, or for *recucing* debt as a percentage of GDP starting in 1995! Yes, that economy was all Clinton’s fault, but fortunately Bush II has put us back on track towards increasing deficits, debt, and interest on the debt, i.e., borrowing beyond our means, yay!
Teak111
Juan Williams to Fox. I heard a story about Murdock, that he will not hestitate to move the Fox demographic left (if only a little) as he sees the direction of politics going that way and ratings are apparently falling at Fox. He did it going from Thatcher to John Major in England. He’s a businessman first. Maybe Juan Williams at Fox is a sign of this. Good for Juan anyway, making some real money now. PBS pays sheet. Of course, that FOX re-education camp is a bitch, expecially on the wife and kids.
Darrell
I’ve never read QandO, Hugh Hewitt, and “other” conservative websites claiming the deficit is a good think as you claim. In fact, I believe you’re lying again. You have any links to QandO, Hewitt, or other major conservative sites telling people how “good” the deficit is?
Yeah, that’s what I thought..
ImJohnGalt
Y’know what I thought was missing from the 100-hour plan?
Voting Reform. I sure do hope that if the Dems take Congress that they do something either federally or at the state level to reform the voting process.
I’ve never been so nervous about an election in my life.
Steve Conover
To “The Other Steve”:
Would you please explain to me how you concluded that I am “in bed with QandO, Hugh Hewitt”? Did they link to my website or something like that? If not, where did you get that idea?
My email address is freely available at my website.
The Other Steve
If it they thought it was bad, wouldn’t you think Republicans would be demanding we do something about it?
Yeah, that’s what I thought.
Anyway, doing searches this optimist123 is showing up on lot’s of republican blogs as evidence that moonbats don’t understand the economy. Ace of Spades, Captains Quarters, Hugh Hewitt, QandO… it’s bizarro.
Darrell
What makes your earlier post so dishonest, is that conservatives have skewered Bush over his wild spending. The word “betrayal” typically comes up in conservative circles when discussing the deficit and the Bush administration in the same paragraph.
The only question is, with Dems talking incessantly about ‘underfunded’ programs, does anyone believe the Dems would be any better?
Darrell
TOSser has been busted so many times in blatent lies. Not just matters of opinion under dispute, but bald faced lies. What’s so richly ironic is that he so often posts about the dishonesty of the other side.
Pb
Fixed!
tBone
OCSteve – cheers. Nose-holding votes aren’t pleasant, but it will be worth it if it steers the GOP back into saner waters.
And if the Dems win and then hold onto power long enough to become hopelessly corrupt, I’ll be right beside you voting the bastards out.
The Other Steve
Whoa… Did Darrell email the whacko guy to get him to respond here?
That’s sweet. Darrell claims this guys ideas are out of the mainstream, and yet is defending him at the same time.
John S.
Darrell votes for pie!
The Other Steve
Obviously you do not understand the difference between conservative and republican.
I’m conservative.
You are Republican. As such, you continue to defend bad ideas and bad decisions solely because they were done by Republicans and you feel it’s your job to defend them regardless of whether it is right or wrong.
RSA
Democrats get a pass on ambiguously racist speech, just as Republicans get a pass on ambiguously cowardly behavior during war time.
Hyperion
i first heard of JW in the mid 80s when he was a big player in “Eyes on the Prize”, a very informative PBS series on the history of the civil rights movement. i had high hopes for him.
i think he might be a good reporter but i know he is a very poor interviewer. so many softball questions. for that reason alone he is perfect for Fox. IMO his moving there is a net gain for NPR…one less fawning interviewer.
Zifnab
But gee-golly, the Democrats are just too much more worse. And we can’t vote for a libertarian or a moderate cause they don’t have enough political muscle and/or a place on the ballot. So I guess we’re just going to have to “Stay the Course” and throw good money after bad. Because its that or the Democrats.
The Other Steve
I don’t like Juan Williams. ToTN was an awesome show when Ray Suarez was running it. It went downhill with Williams and hasn’t yet recovered.
I think his problem is he wants too much to be a hit on the cool kids party scene. That’s why he took the Fox gig. The reason why Fox offered it to them is that they wanted someone who was plainly incapable of being intelligent that they could call their “token liberal”. Williams fit the bill nicely.
Eural
Hey, guys – Here Darrell can I lump you in with this nutcake?
Nov. 15, 2002
Dick Cheney
“Reagan proved deficits don’t matter.”
Pb
So here’s a little thought experiment… let’s pretend for the moment that our national debt might be a good thing–what are the pros and cons? Well, over the course of a year, we incurred approximately $241.8 billion dollars in net new pubic debt (~$574.3 billion total)–money we no doubt used to fund government programs, wage war, and all that good stuff. Without that money, we would have been forced to spend less, tax more, or both. So debt let us do things that we otherwise could not have done, and that, presumably, is the benefit. On the other hand, however, we also paid interest on the public debt–$406 billion dollars in interest! Obviously there’s a point past which this is no longer practical or sustainable, especially if interest rates go up…
Zifnab
But when you think about it, the $406 billion interest is ALSO money we’re spending. Thus it must ALSO be stimulating the economy of whomever holds the debt. Now, remind me again? Who holds a large chunk of America’s debt?
Sojourner
Um. The Repubs are in charge of EVERYTHING. If they’re so damned upset, why didn’t they do something about it. Good grief.
Steve
Amazing how Democrats have repeatedly pushed for across-the-board adoption of PAYGO rules, Republicans have opposed it, and yet it’s an article of faith that the Democrats would make the deficit much worse than the Republicans.
Darrell
TOSser, can you direct to us to any statement I made which could even remotely be construed as “defending” him? You’re like psychotic in your willingness to lie.
Perry Como
We’ve moved to post-supply side economic thought; we are now pushing a China side economy. As long as China keeps buying our debt and supplying us with cheap goods, the economy is fine. That’s why deficits don’t matter, moonbat.
Maybe we should call it Chinese trickle down torture economics.
Darrell
Deficits matter, but whether or not China is the one buying our debt doesn’t mean jack sh*t one way or another. You sound like you really know what you’re talking about
Darrell
According to the article, Republicans wanted a bill that applied to spending only, whereas Dems wanted tax increases. The problem is not on the tax side.. we have plenty of money coming into the treasury. It’s on the out-of-control spending side where the real problems lie.. and Repubs have blown it on spendind.
DougJ
Come on babies, suck it up. No one ever said voting was supposed to be easy.
George Washington had to cross the Delaware in the dead of winter and you babies can’t take a few illegal robocalls.
Perry Como
Somebody is gwumpy wumpy today. I wish your grasp of geopolitics was as strong as Don Sherwood’s (R – Choke A Bitch) grasp on his mistress’s neck.
Steve
Yeah, it makes no difference whether our debt is held by China or our own citizens. There’s no conceivable way it could hurt us to give nations like China this kind of leverage. That’s a very responsible and well thought out position, to be sure.
DougJ
Yeah, it makes no difference whether our debt is held by China or our own citizens. There’s no conceivable way it could hurt us to give nations like China this kind of leverage. That’s a very responsible and well thought out position, to be sure.
The important thing is that at least now our president is getting blow jos from interns. There’s no way you can put a price on that.
DougJ
Meant to say “_not_ getting blos jobs from interns.”
Working on very little sleep here….
Darrell
What “leverage” are you suggesting they have Steve? If anything, China holding massive amounts of our debt gives us more leverage over them. China loaned us money by buying our bonds and treasury notes, and now they need play nice and kiss our red, white and blue ass so as not to make us mad.. otherwise we might haul off and stiff them by not paying them back. We’re holding the cards with THEIR MONEY.
Some ‘leverage’ China has on us, huh? Do you Dems just recite talking points? or do you ever stop to consider the actual ideas and positions that you assert?
DougJ
What “leverage” are you suggesting they have Steve? If anything, China holding massive amounts of our debt gives us more leverage over them.
That’s why you always hear about loan sharks getting beat up the people they lend money to.
Darrell
I think that is such an insightful and intelligent analogy, as China will certainly ‘whack’ the entire US if we don’t pay them back.
Steve
I’m sure we’d have no problem finding trillions of dollars in additional credit after stiffing China… as usual, what a cogent and intelligent point Darrell has made.
I remember once upon a time when I linked to this post and Darrell got all blue in the face insisting that this one Redstate poster was not expressing anything like a mainstream Republican view. Yet here he is today, espousing the exact same crap.
Do you think they ever stop to wonder, “Wow, I spent decades thinking the Democrats’ deficit spending was horrible, but now that the Republicans are doing it, I suddenly realize deficit spending is brilliant”? Does it ever penetrate their skulls that they’ll make up crazy theories to justify literally ANYTHING the Republicans choose to do?
Perry Como
The US defaulting on $1 trillion. Smart. Strong.
The Asshole Formerly Known as GOP4Me
Not only that, he had to go into Jersey. AND he had to fight a bunch of hung-over Germans.
If those two acts don’t constitute heroism, I don’t know what does.
The Asshole Formerly Known as GOP4Me
If we don’t default, the terrorists have won.
Darrell
Yes Steve, clearly I have said that deficits are “brilliant”.. they are a “good thing”.
I think that is so honest and intelligent of you to put words in my mouth which I never said or even inferred. You and TOSser have that tendency in common.
Darrell
If China launched an attack on Taiwan, I think that would be a damn smart, strong move. You Dems disagree?
TenguPhule
Darrell does indeed like pie.
TenguPhule
Why does Darrell like financial suicide so much? Take away the faith in the credit of the USA and all you’ve got left are worthless pieces of paper.
Golly gee, that sounds like Bush’s plan for Social Security too.
Darrell
We froze Iran’s assets here after the mullahs took our hostages. That didn’t hurt our creditworthiness to any significant extent.
tBone
Hell yeah! Fuck paying my mortgage! I’ve got the bank right where I want them.
Perry Como
Not sure how the Dems feel about it, but with our forces exhausted from Iraq and President Bush’s handling of other Asian threats :cough: nuclear North Korea :cough:, I think Dear Leader would do jack and shit.
Still, tell us more about your brilliant plan for the US defaulting on its international debt.
The Asshole Formerly Known as GOP4Me
Hey, it worked for Donald Trump. In for a penny, in for a pound. You’re only in trouble if you default on a small debt, not a HUGE one.
I think you should take out a second mortgage. On a $2.3 million Santa Barbara mansion. After that, fuck ’em. They’ll pay you, the suckers!
Darrell
I think if China attacked Taiwan, we should pay them back in full immediately to help them fund their war effort. In fact, I think you Dems should campaign for that, warning everyone that to do otherwise would {* gasp *} damage our credit rating with China. Run with it lefties.. It’s what you really believe
The Asshole Formerly Known as GOP4Me
America needs to take out a mortgage on the entire island nation of Taiwan. It should only cost $2-3 trillion. After that, China can’t invade without losing $3-4 trillion.
Fuck you, China!
Darrell
The bank can force the sale of your house. What similar leverage does China hold over us? Such insightful analogies from you lefties today.
Perry Como
The collapse of the dollar.
The Asshole Formerly Known as GOP4Me
Then we switch to Euros, or to China-money!
Take THAT, moonbat!
tBone
Gee, Darrell, you’re right. Defaulting on hundreds of billions of dollars would have no adverse impacts on us at all. In fact it would probably stimulate our economy. Fuck China!
Darrell
Except that no worldwide investor would see it as a “default”.. they would see it as justified retaliation against an act of war. We faced no adverse impact from freezing Iranian assets when the mullahs took control for that very reason… the worldwide investment community saw it as a reasonable reaction to the mullahs taking Americans hostage. I would imagine we froze German and Japanese assets during WWII wherever we could.
Darrell
Such deep insights from the left. You guys really seem to know what you’re talking about.
tBone
So all we have to do is get China to start a war and we’re off the hook. Smart. Strong. Savvy.
Steve
Firefox 2.0 can’t come soon enough.
Perry Como
Yeah, I had to read Darrell’s, “Except that no worldwide investor would see it as a “default”” statement a few times. I guess Darrell had a plate of stupid for lunch and went back for seconds. Maybe some deep fried stupid covered in stupid gravy with grated stupid on top.
TenguPhule
Iran didn’t own hundreds of billions in American IOUs.
Nor did Iran also supply the majority of US trade goods.
And what do you do when there’s no war to blame on China as an excuse? Why do you hate our dollar so much?
tBone
1. Get China to start war.
2. Default on Chinese-held debt.
3. ????
4. Profit!
Darrell
What was so stupid about the “no worldwide investor would see it as a ‘default'”? When Germany started WWII, did investors scream that England and France “defaulted” on debts owed to Germany?
Do you see how stupid you are now? Has it finally dawned on you?
Darrell
We had a lot of debt held by Iran under the Shah. We did a lot of business with Iran back then.
Darrell
Here is what lefty halfwit posters are so clueless about – interest paid for bonds, Tnotes and other debt instruments are a function of PERCEIVED creditworthiness. If we went and defaulted willy nilly on our debts because some country or another protested against Bush or enacted a tariff against US agricultural products, well then yeah, that would hurt our creditworthiness.
But in the case of China attacking Taiwan, if we refused to pay China back at that time, it wouldn’t do jack to our creditworthiness, as investors would see that as an entirely justified reaction to an act of war.. there would still be investors lining up worldwide to take up the slack to buy our US govt. debt, which is, and would continue to be, the gold standard.
Perry Como
So your entire brilliant plan is based on China starting a war. Strong. Smart. Similac.
Darrell
Yes Perry, that was my “plan”. You can read so well.
Perry Como
You’re the only person talking about China attacking Taiwan. China doesn’t need to attack Taiwan for the US to be in a bad situation with China holding $1 trillion in US bonds. Did you finish off your plate of stupid with stupid sprinkles too?
Yeesh.
Steve
If Darrell had anything close to a clue, which obviously he doesn’t, he’d know that Asian countries have already started tweaking the mix of foreign debt they hold in response to what they perceive as irresponsible levels of deficit spending by the US, and that the prospect of these countries not being as willing to purchase our debt in the future has a lot of folks in the financial industry very concerned.
Attacking Taiwan has zero to do with this. Simpleminded analysis from a simpleminded person, with the added bonus that he “knows” he’s so much smarter than the rest of us.
Darrell
You made the assertiona that it would be a definitive mistake not to debt owed to the Chinese under any circumstance (“Smart.Strong”, blah). In fact, you have ridiculed the idea of daring not pay China even in the extreme case of China attacking Taiwan. That is how out there you are..
Perry Como
Well, his entire rationalization for why China holding so much US debt doesn’t matter is predicated on China attacking Taiwan. Stupid is as stupid does.
Perry Como
Cite?
Cite?
You can’t because no one said that. You brought up the Taiwan strawman. Honest. Thoughtful.
Darrell
Ooh Steve, thank for the nuance. This, from someone who claims China holds great “leverage” over us by virtue of holding some TNotes, and that the stock market wasn’t in a bear market decline when Bush first took office.
And from such an authority on the subject as Steve, it’s especially rich to see him try and claim such definitive cause/effect relationships on interest rates.. as if he has the first clue.
As this chart makes clear, Asian countries and other foreign investors were paying HIGHER interest rates on our government bonds back when there was little or no deficit
Any more economics “lessons” Steve?
Darrell
Please see posts ridiculing it at 2:24pm, and at 2:39pm you suggested that China could force the collapse of the dollar.
Perry Como
And where did I mention Taiwan? You have provided exactly one scenario where the US could get away with defaulting on its debt to China. Umm, okay. If China attacks Taiwan, the US can probably get away with wiping out that debt we owe.
Now what if China doesn’t attack Taiwan? You know, like, since they haven’t.
Steve
Oh, I claimed a “definitive cause/effect relationship on interest rates.” This is Darrell 101 – when you don’t understand the opposing argument, just make something up and laugh about what a ridiculous argument it is.
Perry Como
I think this is the best illustration of Darrell’s utter dishonesty I’ve seen so far:
Argument – China holding > $1 trillion in US debt is not a good thing.
Darrell – But if China attacks Taiwan it won’t matter.
Argument – What if China doesn’t attack Taiwan?
Darrell – Moonbat!
Darrell
Argument – China can cause the dollar to implode
Darrell – Moonbat
Argument – Defaulting on bonds and notes held by China is too ridiculous for words under any circumstance, even if China launches nuclear weapons at us or our allies.
Darrell – Deep thinker
Argument – China hold US govt debt is a completely analogous situation to a bank holding a home mortgage
Darrell – no comment
Darrell
You did make a definitive cause/effect relationship, and I understand the argument you were trying to make better than you understand it yourself. You argued that significantly fewer foreign investors are willing to buy US debt because of our ‘irresponsible deficit spending’. While I’m no fan of deficits, your point doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. If there was truly a shortage of willing investors lining up to buy our debt as you asserted, we would be forced to raise interest rates in order to attract investors. Yet our government bonds are paying significantly less than say, late 1990’s, when the deficit was virtually nonexistant.
Steve
That’s an argument I’ve seen many times in this thread… that we have to pay China back even if they nuke us… I’m not sure exactly where the post was, but it’s pretty much mainstream lefty opinion, obviously.
Trying to discuss this issue with Darrell rationally is like trying to teach Arabic to my dog. I mean, he believes it literally makes no difference for China to hold all this debt. Could there be any clearer evidence that he understands nothing about the issue?
Tom in Texas
What does our debt to China have to do with the NRCC running a coordinated robocalling campaign? I’m sure Darrell could tell you.
Darrell
It makes no difference whether that debt is held by China, George Soros, and/or the country of Lichtenstein. Holding that debt does not, as you have asserted, give them ‘leverage’ over us.
If anything, it does the opposite, as we have their money.
tBone
Yeah, in Darrell-world a snarky comment means I think my mortgage is “completely analogous” to Chinese-held US debt.
I wish I had Darrell’s iron-clad grasp of international finance. To recap:
1. Get China to start war.
2. Default on Chinese-held debt.
3. ????
4. Profit!
Darrell
Why is that? I’m not the one who first raised the subject of China and the US debt to them. Perry Como did that at 1:02pm… just so you know.
tBone
Let’s keep piling up that foreign debt, then. Soon no one will dare oppose us!
RSA
Maybe if we piled up the debt along our southern border, we could have it work double duty.
HyperIon
i know there’s a script somewhere that would allow me to block posts by certain individuals. but that doesn’t really address the “problem” because of the numerous replies to these individuals.
however, it would really help to know the number of posts by someone BEFORE i bother reading the thread. (right now i have to infer the presence of, say, Darrell or scs by the large number of comments.) can anyone envision a solution?
Perry Como
How about a bar chart that hovers in the lower right hand corner and shows the top 10 or 20 commenters on a given thread?
tBone
I think a pie chart would be more appropriate, don’t you?
TenguPhule
Shorter Darrell: All numbers look the same to me.
t. jasper parnell
Isn’t the problem something more than just holding debt? Isn’t that the American economy increasingly runs on the debt? And doesn’t this mean that the debt rather than being a fixed sum held by China and others but is a constantly expanding sum necessary for America’s continued economic functioning? As to leverage can anybody say Brady Baker?
Perry Como
I can’t believe I missed that.
Darrell
What is your point? That companies have more total debt? or more debt as a percentage of profits, or what? A growing economy results in growing debts.. as debt is needed for expansions, new purchases, and hiring. Not necessarily a bad thing, or good thing, when viewed in isolation without consideration of other related factors.
DougJ
The Darrell stuff here is genius. I never even thought of such a crazy argument that having possibly hostile countries hold your t-bills was a good idea.
t. jasper parnell
Don’t sell yourself short.
The problem, as Latin American countries learned during the Brady Baker structural readjustments, is that when foreigners fund the debt that you need they can insist that you make alterations to your policies. NOw you may “argue” or may I say “darrel” that we he-men in the good ol’ US of A would never backdown or some other balderdash. But man o man, go back and see what happens to countries that lose control over their own finances. Being sovereign requires being solvent; if you do not understand that you are a piker, and not the good Swiss kind.
How is ThymeZone?
t. jasper parnell
If the other factors involved include that debt being in the hands of folks who might wish harm, aren’t the Chinese Godless Pinko Commies? and thus dedicated to the descrution of good ol’ Godloving freedom fry eating US?, they can screw with you no end. But maybe you, you old leftist you, wish this country harm. The rest of the saneospheric blathers here wish this country well and thus we wish to follow a policy that limits limitations of our sovereignity by increasing our solvency.
Darrell
It’s incredible the simple-mindedness of so many libs. That post qualifies as ‘deep thinking’ for most of the left.
tJasper, lenders cannot “insist” you make alterations to your policies under the country accepting the loan agrees to such conditions. Non-banana republic countries (as well as private companies) with a decent record of debt repayment can float their debt on the equity markets with plenty of takers, WITHOUT any obligation whatsoever to alter their policies as part of the deal.
But countries with a history of financial mismanagement, like companies with a history of not paying their debts, cannot obtain loans otherwise without lots of strings being attached. Supply and demand baby.. learn it, live it.
Darrell
Uh, I had in mind assets securing the debt, net worth, and income flow.
it’s difficult to top this level of leftist jackassery. The idiocy is priceless.
t. jasper parnell
Typical leftists no real arguments just invective and fylting. Shameful how you hate the troops.
t. jasper parnell
Falling into debt and defaulting is not, somehow or another, a sign of “financial mismanagement”?
Talk to the French and Spanish.
t. jasper parnell
Remeber there chump er chumb, might nations have in the past fallen because they failed to look after the pennies and pounds; now you might say not here not now, but alas grinds slowly the wheels of history and in their teeth the unwary and those unwilling to learn its lessons find their greatness reduced to a pulp.
t. jasper parnell
And without block quoting, I am not on the left, no one here said it was deep thinking etc, Why o’ why must you lie? Each time you lie baby Jesus cries.
t. jasper parnell
Thus I ask, why do you Pinko-Commie Lovers of Pinko-Commie China want to make baby Jesus cry? Do you hate baby Jesus?
t. jasper parnell
By the way, Mexico is a lot of things but Bannana Republic it aint. What it is a country with large and important reserves of oil pissed away by corrupt politicians more interested in their own nest feathering than in the Nation, sound familiar? You and the leftist in charge of this country, that’s right I’m looking at you George Bush, may want to tranform this mighty engine of freedom into lackey of your masters in China, not me and the Wolverines!!
Darrell
Of course.. and robbing stores to buy crack is not a sign of a drug problem either, right genius?
Falling into debt while defaulting on loans is a CLASSIC SIGN of debt. Did that really need to be spelled out for you?
Darrell
classic sign of “financial mismanagement”, not ‘debt’
t. jasper parnell
Yes Darrel bo barrel bannana fannana etc; so then we cannot default to your Chinesse overlords; war on Taiwan or no. Who, we asked with bated breath, will take on the new loans of when we “float” them? Our good pals the flush French? the always reliably American South East Asians? Who I axe with bated breath?
t. jasper parnell
It is tough living overly literal land? Do you sometimes find people looking at you oddly when they inquire, in the midst of a cold snap, Hot enough for you? and you respond, good goodness man its three below!!
t. jasper parnell
Or were you just trying to make baby Jesus cry because it is your sadistic idea of fun, godless commie and, I honestly believe, member of a growing Chinese fifth column headed by George Bush and, perhaps, Donald Rumsfeld (although given the clearly Teutonic overtones of his last name he might be German fifth columnist or, as we call them here at the Adam Smith/Adam Ferguson house of Liberal Economic and Social Thought, those who bow down before the idle idol of Kraftwerk)