Faith Based Medicine

Longtime readers will know that the event that really set my down the path to hating the current Republican leadership is the outrageous and outlandish lies that were told during the Trri Schiavo fiasco, to include the attempts to create new law to appease a minority of the fringe base, the attacks on the courts, and and the attempts to rewrite the medical texts with gibberish from quacks who were “nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize in Medicine.”

There have been so many other attempts to insert the narrow version of Christianity currently practiced by the current GOP leadership into science and medicine that listing them all is not something I am up to this weekend (I have a steak that has been marinating for 19 hours and other things to do), but this one is noteworthy:

The decision whether the U.S. Food and Drug Administration should approve wider access to a morning-after contraceptive drug was made well before agency scientists finished their final review, two FDA officials said in court documents released on Thursday.

Supporters of over-the-counter sales for Barr Pharmaceuticals Inc.’s Plan B pills have accused top FDA officials of hindering the company’s bid for nonprescription sales for years, to please conservative supporters of President George W. Bush’s administration.

The documents come just days after the FDA said it would reopen discussions over the drug, which can prevent pregnancy if taken within 72 hours of sexual intercourse. The delay had stirred debate over politics and science and held up the confirmation of two agency chiefs.

In a sworn statement in June, Dr. John Jenkins, director of the FDA’s Office of New Drugs, said he learned in early 2004 that then-FDA Commissioner Mark McClellan had decided against approval before the staff could complete their analysis.

Plan B was rejected in May 2004, shortly after McClellan left the agency.

“I think many of us were very concerned that there were policy or political issues that came to play in the decision,” Jenkins said in a deposition for a suit by the Center for Reproductive Rights that seeks easier access to Plan B. Jenkins later said he did not know if anyone outside FDA influenced the decision.

Another FDA official, who evaluated Plan B, alluded to White House involvement in a deposition given last month.

Dr. Florence Houn said she was also told that in January by Deputy Commissioner Dr. Janet Woodcock that Plan B needed to be rejected “to appease the administration’s constituents” but that it could be approved later.

I am not even going to pretend to be surprised, as it is clear now that this is what the administration has done since day one. Replace qualified individuals with appointed ideologues whose primary concern is the advancement of their religious beliefs. I am afraid to think how much damage these lunatics have done, but I am sure we will spend the next few years unscrewing what these lunatics have meddled with.

328 replies
  1. 1
    Zifnab says:

    The joke in all this is that the anti-abortion lobby, the one that makes up the length and width of this entire obstruction attempt, is only shooting itself in the foot in the long run.

    While abortion isn’t exactly popular in America, making yourself the anti-birthcontrol movement is a recipe for disaster. How many unwed mothers and rape victims – how many women standing in line at the abortion clinic – would have more than happily taken a pair of pills to forstall pregenancy until they were truely prepared to have children? How many American men and women truly object to hormone therapy to prevent pregnancy?

    And don’t even get me started on the hypocrasy. The nightmare of it all is when some crazy right-wing group demands more bomb dropping and less embryo killing. Pro-Lifers have a very real and intelligent set of beliefs to add to the abortion debate, but people protesting Plan B are just shooting the movement in the foot. How do you take people seriously when they can’t tell the difference between an 8-month-old fetus and a cluster of cells that could fit on the head of a pin?

    The right is painting the entire pro-life movement with the same brush they’ve been trying to paint all Christians – the crazy brush.

  2. 2

    Well said, John and Zifnab.

    At the heart of it all is a maddening, sometimes frightening lack of respect for facts and truth. Everything with these people is about ideology and politics. Emphasis is always on imposing ideology and gaining political advantage. And so, everything is perfectly elastic.

    Ironically, literally, nothing is sacred. OK, being unfailingly and unquestioningly loyal to and approving of George W. Bush and Dick Cheney is considered sacred. But nothing else is.

    John is right about discovering and undoing the damage these fools have done. I wrote sometime back that I hope Democrats are keeping a journal of what the neocons have done and are doing. Having a detailed list will help make it possible to thoroughly and systematically set about undoing the damage, restoring the rules, changing policies and replacing no-good appointees, once Democrats finally regain control.

    The best thing that could happen on the Republican side is for them to get whipped so resoundingly at the polls through a few elections that the neocons lose their death grip on controlling the money and power in the party. Maybe moderates could then reassert themselves and get somewhere, bringing the party back from the lunatic fringe.

    We need a healthy two-party system, with people to speak up for red-state, more-conservative people’s positions and liberals to work the other side of the street, so to speak. We don’t need radical-fringe types of either party in control any more. Not longhaired, bearded people clad in ancient Che Guevara T-shirts, not suited Grover Norquist, Karl Rove and Tom Delay types either.

  3. 3
    KC says:

    Good point Zifnab. To add to what you said, I think what’s really going on here is that if this stuff goes over-the-counter, more people are going to use it and as they do, see it less and less as an abortive instrument. I mean, once the general population figures out that it’s birth control rather than abortive, a not insignificant part of the “pro-life” crowd will just look like they were running a scam.

  4. 4
    GOP4Me says:

    How do you take people seriously when they can’t tell the difference between an 8-month-old fetus and a cluster of cells that could fit on the head of a pin?

    I think somebody should start going to pro-life rallies waving a sign that calls for the repeal of Griswold v. Connecticut. Without Griswold, no birth control. (I’m not just pro-life, I’m pro-sperm, too!) See how many people you can get on board, then have them out protesting in front of every convenience store in the country. I can see the placards now: “Condoms kill!” “It’s not a wet dream, it’s an abortion!” “I never masturbate and I vote!”

    Together, we can dig a tunnel to the 19th century. We can then inhabit this tunnel, and become Morlock troglodytes. That is my dream.

    Who’s with me, America?

  5. 5
    Ryan S. says:

    Dr. Florence Houn said she was also told that in January by Deputy Commissioner Dr. Janet Woodcock that Plan B needed to be rejected “to appease the administration’s constituents” but that it could be approved later.

    I think Congress needs to pass a law. That says unless a drug is harmfull, or ineffective. Then it must be approved, and leave the stupid political tricks to those that are better suited to them, like Congress.

    I can see this happening alot more in the future with stem cell therapies that are bound to come out in the comming decades or sooner.

  6. 6
    Ancient Purple says:

    I wish more people could see that when you strip away all the politics and nuances, you are essentially talking about body integrity issues. But that doesn’t fly very well in Peoria because when you start talking about controlling people’s body’s and overturning Griswold, people start to panic.

    No one likes the idea of abortion, but the answer to reducing the numbers is not to try to control women’s bodies and force them to carry to term or deny them access to a medical procedure so they don’t have to bear the child of a rapist or Uncle Bob.

    What disgusts me the most is the outright perversion of the Christ message that Bush’s “base” has embraced. Sex is the devil. Intimacy is evil. Finding sex pleasurable is pure sin. All because they think Jesus hates genitalia.

    As C.S. Lewis once opined, “A prude is worse than a prostitute.”

  7. 7

    Plan B needed to be rejected “to appease the administration’s constituents” but that it could be approved later.

    Wow, that’s quite striking.

    Basically what they are saying here is that they wanted to reject the drug, then later come back and approve it. The Republicans would blame the approval on the backlash of the liberal media or some such so that they’d continue to get their votes.

    That’s incredibly blatant.

    Just goes to show you the average stupidity of people who vote for Republicans.

  8. 8
    Slide says:

    I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again, but I think historians are not going to be very kind to the Bush era when all is said and done. Its as if we have taken a step backwards in so many ways. What is especially surprising is that for an era where there has been so many incredible technological advancements we have a government so oddly anti-scientific and anti-intellectual. Bush and company are proud of their ignorance it seems, as if their lack of intellectual curiosity bestows on them some “common folk” credibility. Unfortunately the world is a complicated place and he is ill equipped to deal with it as is plainly visible.

    I was just reading how that right up until we invaded Iraq, Bush was unaware of the Sunni / Shii divisions in Islam. His ignorance is staggering. He has said the jury is still out on evolution and global warming. Simply amazing. I never quite understood what people (Cole included) saw in the President. What qualified him for the position? He was a pampered rich kid that got special favors to get into Yale. Special favors to get out of Vietnam. Special favors to not have to show up in the National Guard. Special favors to bail him out of the two failed businesses he ran into the ground. Special favors to escape getting indicted for insider trading. For Christ’s sake he was an admitted alcoholic for the first 40 years of his life ! Everything that he has accomplished in his life, every single thing, was due to his last name. I remember a quote that was used against his father by Ann Richards but is more than apt in applying to junior, “He was born on third base but thinks he hit a triple”.

    Its no wonder that he has so few supporters left. Even the RNC is telling those running for congress to back away from the President. The Ann Coulters, the Sean Hannity’s, the Darrells and MacBuckets of the world may think the boy president has been a good and strong president but, according to the polls, few others seem to agree.

    So welcome aboard Cole, a little late but I’m glad you finally see what the rest of saw many many years ago.

  9. 9
    KC says:

    The Other Steve,

    Just goes to show you the average stupidity of people who vote for Republicans.

    Well, maybe, but I voted for Republicans for reasons other than birth-control issues. That said, these guys will take a big hit when and if this stuff does go over-the-counter. Once people get acclimated to it, nobody’s going to sit and scream about it anymore. They’ll just look like idiots.

  10. 10
    EL says:

    I’ve seen the same distortion of the scientific facts at work in the embryonic stem research issue. I’ve spoken to a few religous people, not wingnuts, who are under the impression that it has to do with abortion – that abortions are necessary to obtain the stem cells. Why do they believe this? Because someone told them so: right wing radio, websites, and repeated talking points.

    Setting the facts out for them resulted in a change of opinion. There’s hope.

  11. 11
    KC says:

    EL,

    You’re totally right–at least when people are willing to consider facts. However, there is a large contingent on the right for whom facts are, well, fairly inconvenient things. Just ask Andrew Sullivan.

  12. 12
    EL says:

    Ryan, although I sympathize with the emotions behind:

    I think Congress needs to pass a law. That says unless a drug is harmfull, or ineffective. Then it must be approved, and leave the stupid political tricks to those that are better suited to them, like Congress.

    Such a law could be very difficult to craft and more harm than good. After all, what constitutes ‘effective’? How much harm is OK when it’s an anti-cancer drug for an agressive tumor? The point, which I think most of us can agree on, is the get the politics out, and let the scientists make the scientific decisions. Now that, I can support 100%!

  13. 13
    Punchy says:

    This fight is unique b/c it pits two Bush supporters against each other–Big Pharma and Religious Zealots.

    This will not go OTC easily. CNN continues to broadcast its updates calling it “the abortion pill”, even though that’s blatently false. The ignorant masses eat that up. The Bush Admin will be under extremely intense pressure to fight this so as to rile up the base before elections. I wonder if they will decide this OTC question pre-Nov…if so, Barr Labs doesn’t stand a chance…

  14. 14
    Slide says:

    Why do they believe this? Because someone told them so: right wing radio, websites, and repeated talking points.

    The same reason that a sizable chunk think that Iraq DID have WMD. They are ignorant morons that don’t read or think for themselves. Like sheep they are. Hey… ditto heads is an appropriate term for these non-thinkers. To be “hannitized” is also used in some quarters I guess to describe the brain washing technique used. How proud they all must be.

  15. 15
    kdaug says:

    Another Ann Richards’ quote, again applied to the father but far more fitting for the son:

    “Poor George, he can’t help it – he was born with a silver foot in his mouth!”

  16. 16
    EL says:

    Sadly KC, you’re right, some willfully refuse to see anything that could undermine their ideological position. But there are many like our host, who now see the manipulation, and will act accoringly.

  17. 17
    GOP4Me says:

    I wish more people could see that when you strip away all the politics and nuances, you are essentially talking about body integrity issues. But that doesn’t fly very well in Peoria because when you start talking about controlling people’s body’s and overturning Griswold, people start to panic.

    Nobody really cares about the right to privacy until it affects them personally. (Some people don’t even believe in a right to privacy; I invite them to live in a country where the police perform warrantless strip searches on every passerby on every street corner, because if you’re innocent you don’t have anything to hide.)

    A lot more people use condoms than get abortions, so many more people will be alienated by an intrusive assault on popular birth control methods. Not to mention that those condom-users are men, traditionally wielding more clout in our society than the fairer sex.

    It’s easier to pick on small groups that can be handily ostracized, like women seeking abortions and homosexuals. (Did anyone else notice that most of the recently overturned anti-sodomy laws also dealt with heterosexual sex acts like oral sex? Anyone want to place any bets on the last time they were used against heterosexuals?) It’s really all about mobilizing the majority of disgruntled Christian voters by providing them with handy scapegoat outlets for their misguided rage. The power thereby obtained is primarily used to advance the interests of the upper echelons of the Republican Party, but occasionally you do have to throw a bone to the fundies. Plan B’s rejection is such a bone.

    No one likes the idea of abortion, but the answer to reducing the numbers is not to try to control women’s bodies and force them to carry to term or deny them access to a medical procedure so they don’t have to bear the child of a rapist or Uncle Bob.

    A perfectly sensible paragraph. You will never hear George Bush utter anything like this sentiment. No Republican who utters thoughts like this can hope to capture the Christian fundamentalist wing of the Republican Party, currently its dominant grassroots bloc.

    As C.S. Lewis once opined, “A prude is worse than a prostitute.”

    In the case of the modern Republican Party, you have politicians prostituting themselves out to prudes for their votes, then turning around and using this electoral advantage to line their pockets and those of their corporate boosters. The only people adversely affected are those concerned with a country not run by thieves, and those scapegoated as part of this electoral con game.

    It’s really a beautifully self-sustaining system, isn’t it? It reminds me of the Old South, where the powerful landowners kept the poor whites in support of their monopolization of capital and their de facto aristocracy by presenting them with black people, who were even worse off. Having white skin became a property of value in and of itself. There’s nothing a man who has next to nothing fears and hates more than a man who has nothing at all, who indeed isn’t even treated as a man but as a piece of chattel. To put it more succinctly, in the words of Jay Gould, “I can always get one-half of the poor to kill the other half.”

    I’m sure some people still vote for the Republicans out of racism, but I think more vote Republican for reasons of abortion and the like. (I’m ignoring the paleo-conservative libertarians, who appear to be deserting the Party in droves.) Among those voting for the GOP out of religious fundamentalism rather than racial bigotry, it’s more complicated. You have to appear to be working against Roe v. Wade, even though it’s your number-one mealticket. You have to struggle against Hollywood, even though sex and violence are where the money’s at. You have to fight against some casinos, even if you have to use money from other casinos to help you do it. The ultimate goal isn’t the illegalization of condoms or the stoning of gay people in the street, it’s to continue the con game for as long as possible until people wise up or there’s no more money left to steal.

    The balancing act is intricate, and some partisan Democrats would say it’s corrupt, but it’s the only way Bush can stay in power. And we need Bush in power if we want to keep America safe from terrorists. Either you support the incompetent kleptocrats and their allies in the theocracy movement, or you support the terrorists. Which is it gonna be?

  18. 18
    EL says:

    Slide, I don’t see it quite the same. There are lots of people who just don’t follow us this stuff. I’m not talking about the idealogues who want to believe certain things. Many people have some vague recollection of having heard something, but they’re too busy with work, family, whatever – not political junkies like me.

    For the most part, they’re not morons, and they will think about it when they have a personal interest, or it’s shoved in front of their face.

  19. 19
    Zifnab says:

    This fight is unique b/c it pits two Bush supporters against each other—Big Pharma and Religious Zealots.

    One reason this debate has continued to shock me – this and the stem cell debacle – is that there is sooooo much money to be made. Why would Bill Frist turn his back on a founding tenant of Republican ideology, “Thou shall not abort”? Because so many of his backers are doctors, hospitals, and research labs that stand to make a killing off of stem cells.

    One wonders at the powers-that-be who could overcome the millions of dollars that must be pouring into political coffers to get Plan B passed. You never would have seen this resistance to Viagra.

  20. 20
    Slide says:

    For the most part, they’re not morons, and they will think about it when they have a personal interest, or it’s shoved in front of their face

    mo·ron (môr’ŏn’, mōr’-)
    n.
    1. A stupid person; a dolt

    I would think that not knowing that we did not find WMD in Iraq qualifies them to be categorized as a dolt in my book. Dolt you?

  21. 21
    Nutcutter says:

    Its nice to see that John has seen the light.

    Well, to his credit, I think he saw it a long time ago. He just might not have wanted all of us to tag along on his epiphany.

    I can’t blame him, I wouldn’t either.

  22. 22
    Nutcutter says:

    How do you take people seriously when they can’t tell the difference between an 8-month-old fetus and a cluster of cells that could fit on the head of a pin?

    Or when they piously defend clusters of cells, and then talk about live people in the Middle East as if they are disposable when their favorite political agendas are at stake?

  23. 23
    Slide says:

    Slide, I don’t see it quite the same. There are lots of people who just don’t follow us this stuff. I’m not talking about the idealogues who want to believe certain things. Many people have some vague recollection of having heard something, but they’re too busy with work, family, whatever – not political junkies like me.

    Actually I agree with you El. Even in these most troubling times it seems that few American’s follow the news or read newspapers. Its a sad indictment of our country that most high school graduates couldn’t find Vietnam or Iraq on a map if their life depended on it. Democrcies require an educated and engaged public. That we don’t have and that is why little sound bites and simplistic slogans often carry the day. This is even encouraged by the people we have in power. When Bush says he does’t read the papers that is telling everyone that it is unimportant. What a message for the leader of a democracy to tell his country. He has often expressed pride in being a “C” student. The disdain for intellectual thought is very real in this administration. What a shameful legacy.

  24. 24

    GOP4ME

    “Among those voting for the GOP out of religious fundamentalism rather than racial bigotry, it’s more complicated. You have to appear to be working against Roe v. Wade, even though it’s your number-one mealticket.”

    That’s an especially significant point in an excellent commentary full of significant points.

  25. 25

    Zifnab wrote:

    “Why would Bill Frist turn his back on a founding tenant of Republican ideology, 1Thou shall not abort’? Because so many of his backers are doctors, hospitals, and research labs that stand to make a killing off of stem cells.”

    No doubt true, but it surely goes way beyond just that.

    “Frist’s father co-founded Hospital Corp. of America (HCA), the nation’s largest hospital chain and what published reports estimate is the 90th largest company in the United States. Frist’s older brother, Thomas F. Frist Jr., not only helped his father start HCA but was also the firm’s longtime chairman and CEO. Last year, Forbes estimated Thomas Frist’s fortune-concentrated in HCA stock-at $1.7 billion. As for the senator, he, too, has owned stock in the company for years, even though the amount has rarely been known.”

    (Inheritance taxectomy, anyone?)

  26. 26
    GOP4Me says:

    That’s an especially significant point in an excellent commentary full of significant points.

    Thank you. Now if I only knew the solution to defeating this method, I could run for Congress. It seems like sooner or later, people are going to catch on to the fact that the GOP isn’t helping them, or even giving them the moral majority horseshit they’ve been angling for. I hope that process is underway, but the bitter experiences of the last 3 elections have taught me never to underestimate the GOP’s capacity to hoodwink a slim majority of Americans. Never underestimate the Democrats’ ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, either.

  27. 27

    GOP4Me, your hope and worries are exact copies of my own.

  28. 28

    Actually, GOP4Me, I probably put that in an unintentionally undiplomatic way.

    Your hope and worries are precisely in line with my own.

  29. 29
    GOP4Me says:

    GOP4Me, your hope and worries are exact copies of my own.

    We’ll see how it goes this November. I’m sort of hoping for the best and expecting the worst. But as long as we get rid of Senator Santorum, I’ll consider it a triumph. Even that modest success would elate me immensely.

    I’m curious what would satisfy other centrists and lefties, short of Democratic takeover of Congress. Would Santorum be enough for you guys, or would a couple other reactionaries have to go down before you were pleased with 2006?

  30. 30
    GOP4Me says:

    Actually, GOP4Me, I probably put that in an unintentionally undiplomatic way

    It’s okay, I didn’t think you were accusing me of plagiarism.

    It’s not like I’m copying text out of Senator Cornyn speeches and pasting it as my own thoughts or something. I’m too lazy to be a plagiarist, it’s easier just to spout off whatever nonsense is already in your head.

    If I DO decide to become a plagiarist, though, I’m doing it as a full-on spoof and I’m plagiarizing Ben Domenech posts.

  31. 31
    Nutcutter says:

    Why would Bill Frist turn his back on a founding tenant of Republican ideology, 1Thou shall not abort’? Because so many of his backers are doctors, hospitals, and research labs that stand to make a killing off of stem cells.”

    Bill Frist’s family just made a $21b dollar deal, didn’t they? I’m not sure he really cares about ideology that much. The Frists are a bigger economy than a lot of countries.

  32. 32
    GOP4Me says:

    “your head” = my head

    Damn, maybe I AM plagiarizing somehow. This is freaky!

  33. 33
    Nutcutter says:

    Sorry, SW-A, looks like you sort of beat me to the Frist thing.

  34. 34
    GOP4Me says:

    Bill Frist’s family just made a $21b dollar deal, didn’t they? I’m not sure he really cares about ideology that much. The Frists are a bigger economy than a lot of countries.

    A man who can accurately diagnose patients just by watching video footage of them is worth every penny of that $21 billion. Think of how much we could revolutionize the field of medicine if we had just a dozen more like him!

  35. 35
    Ancient Purple says:

    I’m curious what would satisfy other centrists and lefties, short of Democratic takeover of Congress. Would Santorum be enough for you guys, or would a couple other reactionaries have to go down before you were pleased with 2006?

    To be honest, I would be singularly pleased if Holy Joe got trounced on Tuesday by Lamont.

    But, since that is a primary, I will say that I would love a take over of either side of Congress, but wouldn’t be upset if I saw Santorum, Burns, Kyl, DeWine and Talent all staying home in January.

  36. 36
    KC says:

    Just curious, but does anyone know what happened to ppGaz?

  37. 37
    Keith says:

    Congressional law that absolutely no one will understand but is good: “Some categories of jobs are NOT political. They shalt be…MERIT-BASED!”

  38. 38
    Nutcutter says:

    Just curious, but does anyone know what happened to ppGaz?

    He and some rich woman ran off to the South Pacific.

  39. 39
    mrmobi says:

    GOP4ME:

    The ultimate goal isn’t the illegalization of condoms or the stoning of gay people in the street, it’s to continue the con game for as long as possible until people wise up or there’s no more money left to steal.

    Well, GOP, the stoning of gay people might not be their ultimate goal…but if a few gays do get roughed up as a result of the GOP’s pandering to Christianists, well, plan on seeing some crocodile tears.

    Thanks for an excellent post, by the way. I think you’ve described the current political situation very well. It frightens me to imagine what kind of events might lead up to the mid-term elections. More Bin Laden tapes, an attack, a new war? The polls are quite favorable to Dems right now, but I’m personally very pessimistic. Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, indeed.

    It does seem that Dems are beginning to exhibit some backbone, at long last. It will be revealing to see if Ned Lamont can actually win in the CT primary, and what Lieberman does if that happens. I think that race might help define how successful being an “anti-war” candidate will be in 2008. For myself, I hope both the mid-term and the 2008 elections end up being about competence. We need more of it.
    Your analogy of the Old South to the current regime is spot on. It really is a matter of whether the electorate is going to wise up to the game the GOP is playing. One of the reasons I’m so pessimistic is that the press is totally phoning it in during this period. We have a situation where there is massive corruption, graft resulting in the loss of billions in treasury, and gross negligence, and we get “WMDs discovered in Iraq.” What a shame.

  40. 40
    Richard 23 says:

    “He was born on third base but thinks he hit a triple”.

    To apply this analogy to GWB, it would have to be:

    “He was born on third base but thinks he hit a home run”.

    Clueless.

  41. 41
    ppGaz says:

    Think of Don Ho, and me on the pedal steel.

    Aloha Oe, baby!

    Aloha `oe, aloha `oe
    E ke onaona noho i ka lipo
    One fond embrace,
    A ho`i a`e au

  42. 42
    ppGaz says:

    KC, my email address is in plain view at the url.

    First text on the first album. Just read between the lines so to speak.

    Send me a missive if you have a minute.

    thx,

    p

  43. 43
    mrmobi says:

    GOP4ME:

    I’m curious what would satisfy other centrists and lefties, short of Democratic takeover of Congress. Would Santorum be enough for you guys, or would a couple other reactionaries have to go down before you were pleased with 2006?

    Like many here, I’m not optimistic about possible gains during the mid-term, but wouldn’t it be nice to actually see oversight committees in Congress doing actual oversight? I would be delighted if Dems could get control of one house.

    With control of one house, we could investigate the $9 billion that went missing in Iraq. How about that pre-war Iraq intelligence report that never seems to get released? And what about going back to the “quaint” practice of getting warrants for surveillance?
    Here’s hoping. Can I get an Amen?

  44. 44
    GOP4Me says:

    To be honest, I would be singularly pleased if Holy Joe got trounced on Tuesday by Lamont.

    Yeah, but as you note, that’s housecleaning.

    But, since that is a primary, I will say that I would love a take over of either side of Congress, but wouldn’t be upset if I saw Santorum, Burns, Kyl, DeWine and Talent all staying home in January.

    I feel the same way about all of those bastards. But if we can only get just one of them: please, God, let it be Santorum.

  45. 45
    Zifnab says:

    To be honest, I would be singularly pleased if Holy Joe got trounced on Tuesday by Lamont.

    If pollstering is worth its weight in salt, Lamant has all but won. I think Ned is running a double digit lead among likely voters. And while Lieberman plans an epic “Get Out The Vote” push this Tuesday, the general consensus is he’s dead in the water. Expect to see Lieberman running with a big (I) next to his name this fall.

    I’m curious what would satisfy other centrists and lefties, short of Democratic takeover of Congress.

    Anything less than one House will be a disaster. Democrats have momentum because Republicans keep screwing up, but they can’t screw up forever. Democrats need to start doing things. The minimum wage push was solid until the Republicans co-opted it with a flood of tax cutting bullshit add-ons. Constantly railing against the war wins a base that’s honestly sick of Iraq, but even Bush will pull out eventually. And the culture of corruption line works right up until Republicans learn how to stop getting caught.

    But control of House or Senate gives Democrats power, something they haven’t had in 6 years. With power, they can launch probs, keep passing legislation which Bush will be forced to veto hand over fist, end the rubber stamping, and best of all give Dems the bully pulpit they need to tell their Republican yookle colleages to sit down and shut up.

    Everything else is hollow. For every Dogsex Santorum, there’s a GW-hoax Inhofe. For every Conman Burns of Montana, there’s a President-tonging Lieberman. There’s no shortage of Republican shills willing to fill in the void. This time, we can’t be happy with anything less than a win.

  46. 46
    GOP4Me says:

    Well, GOP, the stoning of gay people might not be their ultimate goal…but if a few gays do get roughed up as a result of the GOP’s pandering to Christianists, well, plan on seeing some crocodile tears.

    True. But hey, when politics is a business, a couple gay people getting hurt is just collateral damage. Same thing if some Eric Rudolph-style crazy blows up an abortion clinic or snipes a woman dead. Unfortunate collateral damage, but not unfortunate enough to stop the money machine.

    Thanks for an excellent post, by the way. I think you’ve described the current political situation very well. It frightens me to imagine what kind of events might lead up to the mid-term elections. More Bin Laden tapes, an attack, a new war? The polls are quite favorable to Dems right now, but I’m personally very pessimistic. Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, indeed.

    Thanks. We’ll just have to wait and see. Karl Rove is still pretty wily, and it remains to be seen how much the whole Plamegate diversion took the wind out of his sails. I’m confident he’ll come up with some sneaky nastiness as some point in September.

    Meanwhile, the most we can do is keep our fingers crossed and volunteer for the local lefty candidates. Most of them could sure use the help.

    It does seem that Dems are beginning to exhibit some backbone, at long last. It will be revealing to see if Ned Lamont can actually win in the CT primary, and what Lieberman does if that happens. I think that race might help define how successful being an “anti-war” candidate will be in 2008. For myself, I hope both the mid-term and the 2008 elections end up being about competence. We need more of it.

    It’s looking pretty good for Lamont there, I think. If Lieberman runs as an Independent, it’ll be interesting to see the rhetorical gymnastics that Clinton and the DLC go through, whichever way he decides.

    2008 is the real year to see if the Dems can turn the current dissatisfaction at the Bush regime into a permanent momentum against right-wing mismanagement of the country and rewire the economy into some kind of pseudotheocratic, quasi-feudalist aristocracy masquerading as a kleptocracy acting like an oligarchy pretending to be a democracy.

    Or, maybe 2008’ll be about how the Democratic candidate is ugly and joyless and flip-floppy, and how you’d rather have a beer with the candidates on the GOP’s dancing bear/jackalope ticket. Dancing Bear for President in 2008! Or else the Democrats will let the gay people and Osama fuck you and kill you!

    Your analogy of the Old South to the current regime is spot on. It really is a matter of whether the electorate is going to wise up to the game the GOP is playing. One of the reasons I’m so pessimistic is that the press is totally phoning it in during this period. We have a situation where there is massive corruption, graft resulting in the loss of billions in treasury, and gross negligence, and we get “WMDs discovered in Iraq.” What a shame.

    That’s an excellent point. But then, the press is owned by some of the same people, so what can you expect? If Bush raped a nun on national television, Rupert Murdoch would either order Fox to ignore it or else try to find a positive spin for it.

    Still, you do have to give some portions of the press credit for showing a little more willingness to attack Bush than they showed from 2001-early 2005. Once his poll numbers went down they were slightly better about going after him. If the GOP ends up getting trounced in 2006, I think you’ll see some real investigative reporting in 2007. You already see the GOP rats in Congress fleeing this sinking ship, so hopefully the press will be filming it when the Administration finally goes under.

  47. 47
    GOP4Me says:

    With control of one house, we could investigate the $9 billion that went missing in Iraq. How about that pre-war Iraq intelligence report that never seems to get released? And what about going back to the “quaint” practice of getting warrants for surveillance?
    Here’s hoping. Can I get an Amen?

    Amen!

    I will say one thing for the Dems right now: if Rove doesn’t come out with something soon, they’re going to trounce a lot of Republicans in a lot of different places. They might not pick up seats in Indiana and Kansas and the other Red states where they’re fielding candidates, but right now it is honestly looking like they could pick up both Houses of Congress. Of course, that presupposes that Rove does nothing, or that the Dems won’t fuck it up somehow; but if the election were held tomorrow, I’d be quietly optimistic.

  48. 48
    Krista says:

    I feel the same way about all of those bastards. But if we can only get just one of them: please, God, let it be Santorum.

    If Santorum does get trounced, there will be a lot of people raising glasses in tribute to Dan Savage.

  49. 49
    Krista says:

    Getting back on topic, though, I wonder where in hell the outraged women are? How on earth have the neocons been so successful in framing the reproductive choice debate so as to lead everybody to believe that the only women who might need Emergency Contraception, an abortion, or even the Pill, are unwed teenagers? One major argument I heard against having EC available over-the-counter was that teenagers wouldn’t know how to use it properly and would abuse it. For starters, the damned things come with instructions. And as well, what about grown women who may or may not be in a serious relationship or even may or may not be married, but either aren’t ready for kids, don’t want another one just yet, or have an appointment for sterilization on their calendars? Why do these asshats not realize that just because you’re a married adult, it doesn’t mean you want to start popping out as many babies as possible, as soon as possible? And why are married adults not standing up and making that point?

  50. 50
    Davebo says:

    A quick correction.

    Replace qualified individuals with appointed ideologues whose primary concern is the advancement of their religious beliefs electoral advantage.

  51. 51
    GOP4Me says:

    If pollstering is worth its weight in salt, Lamant has all but won. I think Ned is running a double digit lead among likely voters. And while Lieberman plans an epic “Get Out The Vote” push this Tuesday, the general consensus is he’s dead in the water. Expect to see Lieberman running with a big (I) next to his name this fall.

    I thought he gave that plan up and decided to spend a ton of money on TV ads instead. Talk about a waste of time!

    Anything less than one House will be a disaster. Democrats have momentum because Republicans keep screwing up, but they can’t screw up forever. Democrats need to start doing things. The minimum wage push was solid until the Republicans co-opted it with a flood of tax cutting bullshit add-ons. Constantly railing against the war wins a base that’s honestly sick of Iraq, but even Bush will pull out eventually. And the culture of corruption line works right up until Republicans learn how to stop getting caught.

    But you’ve also got to consider that every day in Bush’s America is another day where something really horrible might happen which further demonstrates Bush’s utter incompetence to the American people. Hurricane Katrina, for example.

    Everything else is hollow. For every Dogsex Santorum, there’s a GW-hoax Inhofe. For every Conman Burns of Montana, there’s a President-tonging Lieberman. There’s no shortage of Republican shills willing to fill in the void. This time, we can’t be happy with anything less than a win.

    Just try not to get your hopes up. This IS the Democratic Party we’re talking about, here. I’d like to see them sweep these corrupt bastards off the national chart, but realistically that probably won’t happen. Whether or not it works out this time, we’ll be in an even better position to clobber them in 2008. After 2 more years of Bush, his approval rating should be down to about 14% or so. It’s not going back up, unless he captures Osama or something- and even that would only be a temporary boost.

    Right now, he can’t blame anything on Democrats, like he did back in early 2002 when we controlled the Senate. This mess is all Republican, and only the Senator Cornyns of the right can still have the gumption to blame any of it on Clinton.

    I want to win this thing, too. But even if we lose, I’ll be content just to see Santorum go. I’ll have to content myself with a small victory like that, anyway, even though you’re probably right- that a failure to win one House or the other is not very good at all for the Party’s long-term prospects. (Sorry for trying to rationalize alternative viewpoints- hey, I’m a Democrat! Rationalizing my Party’s failure to win anything despite overwhelming evidence that they can govern rings around the GOP is the only way I can get myself out of bed in the morning.)

  52. 52
    GOP4Me says:

    If Santorum does get trounced, there will be a lot of people raising glasses in tribute to Dan Savage.

    You gotta give credit where credit’s due. Senator Santorum may no longer be a national political figure after this November, but santorum will be with us forever.

  53. 53
    GOP4Me says:

    Getting back on topic, though, I wonder where in hell the outraged women are? How on earth have the neocons been so successful in framing the reproductive choice debate so as to lead everybody to believe that the only women who might need Emergency Contraception, an abortion, or even the Pill, are unwed teenagers? One major argument I heard against having EC available over-the-counter was that teenagers wouldn’t know how to use it properly and would abuse it. For starters, the damned things come with instructions. And as well, what about grown women who may or may not be in a serious relationship or even may or may not be married, but either aren’t ready for kids, don’t want another one just yet, or have an appointment for sterilization on their calendars? Why do these asshats not realize that just because you’re a married adult, it doesn’t mean you want to start popping out as many babies as possible, as soon as possible? And why are married adults not standing up and making that point?

    I don’t know the answers to any of your questions, and I wish I did. I’m guessing that laziness, complacency, and the feeling that these problems only affect OTHER people probably factor into it somewhere, but it’s hard for me to be sure.

  54. 54
    Punchy says:

    Hey Krista…do you guys have Plan B OTC in Canackistan?

  55. 55
    tBone says:

    And why are married adults not standing up and making that point?

    They’re too busy caring for the kids they started popping out as soon as they got married.

    Honestly, I think it’s squeaky wheel syndrome. The people opposed to reproductive choice bleat so loudly that it seems like there’s more of them than there really are. And, as GOP said, many people who don’t have a problem with it are too lazy and complacent to make themselves heard.

  56. 56
    nyrev says:

    Getting back on topic, though, I wonder where in hell the outraged women are? How on earth have the neocons been so successful in framing the reproductive choice debate so as to lead everybody to believe that the only women who might need Emergency Contraception, an abortion, or even the Pill, are unwed teenagers?

    Actually, I suspect it may be more of a case of the neocons framing the reproductive choice debate so as to lead everybody to believe that the only women who might need contraception are horrible people and enormous sluts. That’s the fundie take on it, and that’s the base the neocons are pandering to with this one. Hell, one friend of mine who went on the Pill basically to keep one of her ovaries from rupturing got a lovely gift basket full of Catholic “The Pill is Murder” propaganda from her own mother. The anti-contraception crowd is loud, organized and nasty. If the rest of us don’t get organized ourselves, they’ll pick us off one by one.

  57. 57
    Hyperion says:

    Leading pioneer in education A S Neill said:

    If you hate sex, you hate life.

  58. 58
    Darrell says:

    Replace qualified individuals with appointed ideologues whose primary concern is the advancement of their religious beliefs.

    Well, that may be true in some cases.. but in this example, we’re talking about the Morning after spontaneous abortion pill. Given that Bush campaigned as a staunch pro-life anti-abortion candidate, is it really so surprising and outrageous that this administration would try and block the release of it? Especially since the proposed legislation for over the counter distribution of this pill had no age restrictions. I believe the drug company changed their proposal and said they would not sell to anyone under 18, but they haven’t offered much of a plan on how they would enforce this.

    I honestly don’t see how this is some glaring example of anti-science.. but instead a moral issue in which the Bush administration and their appointee have reasonable concerns.

  59. 59
    Andrew says:

    You get drugs approved by the government you voted for, not the government you wish you had voted for.

  60. 60
    Pb says:

    they would not sell to anyone under 18, but they haven’t offered much of a plan on how they would enforce this

    How much of a plan do you need, really. Either you card people or you don’t.

  61. 61
    Krista says:

    Hey Krista…do you guys have Plan B OTC in Canackistan?

    No, it’s still behind the counter only. One thing that I liked was that the one time I went to Planned Parenthood for my “lady-bits” exam (I had just moved and didn’t have a family doc yet), the nurse handed me a dose of EC in an envelope and said, “Hopefully you won’t ever need this, but if you do, you’ll have it at hand right away, when it’ll be most effective.” She didn’t ask any questions about my marital status or sexual history prior to that — just handed them over, just in case.

    The irony is funny, however in regards to age restriction on EC. EC is just a very high dosage of oral contraceptive. That’s it. Are there age restrictions for the Pill?

    As well, from all accounts that I’ve read, taking EC makes you sick as a dog from the increased level of hormones. If people want less abortions, it might make sense to actually allow people to go through the nasty (but not permanently damaging) experience of taking EC, which might increase their vigilance regarding regular contraception, so as to not have to go through that again.

  62. 62
    J Bean says:

    I worked in the Urgent Care clinic today. A mom brought in her 15 year old daughter. The child had gone to a friend’s house a week ago thinking that they would hang out since the friend’s mom and dad were out of time. Naturally, the older brother had the same idea and had invited over a bunch of his closest party friends. A 21 year old man plyed the girls with alcohol and then had unprotected intercourse with them. The next day the young man tried to get the two girls to go to a clinic to get EC, but the one I saw didn’t because she and her mom don’t believe in abortion and they had been told at their church that EC caused abortion.

    I told the mom that EC actually only disrupts ovulation and she said, “You mean it’s just birth control?” Yep. That’s all it is. In fact, I used to have young women take 3 OCPs twice at a 12 hour interval before Plan B was available. Plan B is a progesterone only version that does not cause nausea and is completely safe, to boot. What it does and how it works are measurable, observable, and verifiable. You know, science. A week later, it’s too late and to make things worse, the girl was on the 11th day of her cycle which is a really, really bad day to have unprotected intercourse when you don’t want to get pregnant. Especially if you are a fantastically fecund teenager.

    To avoid a flame war, I won’t mention that I hate Christians with the same white hot heat that I hate Republicans. I will mention that I don’t think too highly of 21 year old men who would get a young teen drunk and have unprotected sex with her.

  63. 63
    Andrew says:

    I will mention that I don’t think too highly of 21 year old men who would get a young teen drunk and have unprotected sex with her.

    Is he in jail? If not, why isn’t he in jail?

  64. 64
    DougJ says:

    I am afraid to think how much damage these lunatics have done

    But better a lunatic run our country than a wind surfer, am I right?

    John, it’s great that you’ve seen the light, but why don’t you end a few more posts with I’m sorry that I voted for these lunatics.

  65. 65
    J Bean says:

    I saw another patient a few weeks ago who had had a condom mishap while having sex with her husband. She tried to get EC the next day at Savon, but the lying pharmacist told her that EC was only available at special pharmacies and refused to tell her where they were (hint: it’s legally available over the counter everywhere in the entire state). She had been planning to have a baby in another year, after her husband finished his degree, but I guess that Savon would prefer that people have babies rather than get educations or else practice married abstinence. She did, of course, get pregnant.

    My guess would be that the knucklehead pharmacist thought he was preventing abortion because some lying minister had told him that preventing ovulation is murder.

    Oh, and Darrell, not much for science, are you?

  66. 66
    Nutcutter says:

    is it really so surprising and outrageous that this administration would try and block the release of it?

    Of course it is. One of the most precious of rights is the right to be left the fuck alone by government.

    This kind of thing violates that right, and replaces it with the perceived right of some people to impose their “morality” on people who don’t want it, because they got themselves elected in a Republic.

    What Bush and his friends is doing here is evil. Unconscionable.

    George Bush pretends to care about the lives of cells, but, like you, dismisses the deaths of whole, live people as “collateral” when he considers them disposable and in the way of his political agenda.

    You support murder. You have no business even posting to this thread.

  67. 67
    Perry Como says:

    Darrell believes there is no consensus on what constitutes science. Phrenology, homeopathy, magnet therapy…no consensus!

  68. 68
    Nutcutter says:

    Yet, we have total confidence in the E-meter.

  69. 69
    demimondian says:

    Darrell believes there is no consensus on what constitutes science.

    Hmm. Perry, there is no consensus on what constitutes science — for instance, is mathematics science?

    Science is kind of like pornography, in my opinion. I usually know it when I see it, and some people get a real thrill out of it.

  70. 70
    Mac Buckets says:

    The next day the young man tried to get the two girls to go to a clinic to get EC, but the one I saw didn’t because she and her mom don’t believe in abortion and they had been told at their church that EC caused abortion.

    Elvis Costello terminates pregnancies? In my experience, I’ve noticed quite the opposite.

  71. 71
    Zifnab says:

    The next day the young man tried to get the two girls to go to a clinic to get EC, but the one I saw didn’t because she and her mom don’t believe in abortion and they had been told at their church that EC caused abortion.

    But…. but…. doesn’t this just prove that only rapists benefit from EC? I think the young girl did the right thing. I’m sure upon carrying said child to term, she and her drunken one-night mistake will make wonderful, responsible parents. Who knows, maybe the child growing in her womb will one day cure AIDS or solve world hunger. And what’s more, it is important that she listened to her cleryman rather than, say, her doctor. If the clery has proven one thing in the past ten years, its that they’ve got our children’s best interests at heart.

  72. 72
    Andrew says:

    I think that there is a pretty strong consensus among scientists about what constitutes science.

    The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena.

    Thanks American Heritage!

    Math is not science any more than philosophy is.

  73. 73
    J Bean says:

    I don’t believe in the supernatural and in some man (or men or men and women, whatever) in the sky who grants magic wishes. However, I can’t say definitely when life begins. I respect the fact that some people may want to define that point as the meeting of two gametes. That’s up to them and as long as they are only making the decision about their own personal gametes, so be it. However, the part that ticks me off is that there are people for whom the truthiness is that EC causes abortion. It doesn’t. If you’ve already conceived before you get it, then it doesn’t work. In fact, reproductive endocrinologists (i.e. infertility docs) pass the stuff out like popcorn (the same damn hormone!!!) in an attempt to improve the chance of implantation and to maintain early pregnancies.

    The police have already been called about the 15 year olds. Sick bastard. My husband is currently patting himself on the back for having had the foresight to marry a woman who was too old to have children.

  74. 74

    Anything less than one House will be a disaster. Democrats have momentum because Republicans keep screwing up, but they can’t screw up forever. Democrats need to start doing things.

    Agreed. I’ve spoken to many a Republican voter whose only excuse was that the GOP promised to do something.

    They weren’t sure what that something was, or even if it was the right something, they didn’t really care.

  75. 75
    Tulkinghorn says:

    John,

    If you mean what you say, you need to commit to voting a straight Democratic ticket in ’06 and ’08. No weaseling out because the nominee shook hands with Al Sharpton and Cindy Sheehan.

  76. 76
    Zifnab says:

    I don’t believe in the supernatural and in some man (or men or men and women, whatever) in the sky who grants magic wishes. However, I can’t say definitely when life begins. I respect the fact that some people may want to define that point as the meeting of two gametes. That’s up to them and as long as they are only making the decision about their own personal gametes, so be it.

    That’s a bit of a delicate line to cross. The same could be said about prostitution, gambling, tearing the tags off matresses, and a number of other “victimless crimes”. However, if two gametes really do make a life there are some very serious and very rooted ramifications of it all. Human rights, civil liberties, taxes, insurance, and a host of other legal states of being require the definition of a human life to be nailed firmly down. “You go your way and I’ll go mine,” may work with the next-door neighbor, but don’t try to tell it to the judge.

    We need a sane, rational, workable definition of life in our public system or suddenly sneezing on a petri dish becomes manslaughter. Its not enough to just wave your hands and let crazies be crazies.

  77. 77
    Nutcutter says:

    We need a sane, rational, workable definition of life in our public system

    Well, we have one. It’s called the Consitution. Citizenship and all rights that pertain thereto is based on birth.

    Zygotes, gametes and blastocysts are not recognized by the great document.

    Oddly, it’s the people who insist on “strict construction” of the Constitution who seem to think that their “feelings” on the matter trump the highest law in the land.

  78. 78
    DougJ says:

    Elvis Costello terminates pregnancies?

    Many of my friends have attributed my unmarried state to excessive listening to Elvis Costello.

    Jesus, that comment was from you Mac? What kind of conservative listens to Elvis Costello?

  79. 79
    Ancient Purple says:

    but instead a moral issue in which the Bush administration and their appointee have reasonable concerns.

    What moral issue is that?

    And why would Bush administration officials’ concerns be more reasonable than the women who want OTC access to Plan B?

  80. 80
    GOP4Me says:

    Oddly, it’s the people who insist on “strict construction” of the Constitution who seem to think that their “feelings” on the matter trump the highest law in the land.

    Don’t you worry. Once the pro-life movement gets that National Right to Life Committee Amendment enacted, every sperm may not be sacred but every fertilized egg sure will be.

    Plenty of good stuff in there:

    Section 1: With respect to the right to life, the word “Person” as used in this article and in the Fifth and Fourteenth Articles of Amendment to the Constitution of the United States applies to all human beings irrespective of age, health, function, or condition of dependency, including their unborn offspring at every stage of their biologic development.

    Section 2: No unborn person shall be deprived of life by any person; provided, however, that nothing in this article shall prohibit a law permitting only those medical procedures required to prevent the death of the mother.

    Section 3: The Congress and the several States shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

    I’m not sure if the pro-life movement has totally abandoned this one or not, but if it ever gets passed, you’ll have to buy RU486 from the pharmacy equivalent of a speakeasy. You can kiss stem cell research goodbye, too.

    On a somewhat unrelated note, I’ve always wondered why the pro-choice movement didn’t adopt the coat hanger as its symbol. The pro-life movement waves crosses and photos of fetuses, why can’t the pro-choice movement adopt the coat hanger as a symbol? After all, it’s what women will be resorting to once again if the pro-life movement ever gets its way.

  81. 81
    GOP4Me says:

    That’s a bit of a delicate line to cross. The same could be said about prostitution, gambling, tearing the tags off matresses, and a number of other “victimless crimes”. However, if two gametes really do make a life there are some very serious and very rooted ramifications of it all. Human rights, civil liberties, taxes, insurance, and a host of other legal states of being require the definition of a human life to be nailed firmly down. “You go your way and I’ll go mine,” may work with the next-door neighbor, but don’t try to tell it to the judge.

    Gambling is gradually becoming legal everywhere. States have realized that they’ve let the Mafia monopolize that moneypot for far too long, and they want in on the action.

    As for tearing mattress tags off, is that really illegal? If so, why? Has anyone ever actually been prosecuted for this, or is it just one of those things that happens in cartoons?

    Prostitution is a complicated subject because of the issues of sex abuse and rape and drug abuse and so forth that intertwine with it to some extent, but here’s a poser for you: why is it illegal to pay a woman $50 to sleep with you, but Constituionally protected (1st Amendment) activity for you to pay a woman $1500 to sleep with you while you film it and release it as pornography?

  82. 82
    GOP4Me says:

    You get drugs approved by the government you voted for, not the government you wish you had voted for.

    Freedom is messy.

  83. 83
    chopper says:

    we’re talking about the Morning after spontaneous abortion pill.

    it isn’t a ‘spontaneous abortion pill’. all it does is block fertilization or implantation, neither of which are ‘abortion’. either that or regular birth control pills are ‘spontaneous abortion pills’ as well, and good luck with that argument.

  84. 84
    zzyzx says:

    Tearing the tags off of matresses is only illegal for the store. It’s labelling; letting us know what’s in it. Read the statement again and you’ll see that it’s perfectly legal for the person who buys the matress to remove the tag.

  85. 85
    demimondian says:

    it isn’t a ‘spontaneous abortion pill’. all it does is block fertilization or implantation, neither of which are ‘abortion’. either that or regular birth control pills are ‘spontaneous abortion pills’ as well, and good luck with that argument.

    Well, actually, to the extent that The Pill prevents implantation of a fertilized blastocyst, it is an abortifacient. (Yes, at least half, and probably significantly more than half, of all fertilized ova abort abort spontaneously. That’s a red herring; human intent is the relevant issue here.)

    Personally, I would love to see the anti-abortion movement called on that more frequently. The number of women who’ve had abortions is far lower than the number who would be horrified to see _Griswold_ under fire.

  86. 86
    Larry says:

    “but the lying pharmacist told her that EC was only available at special pharmacies and refused to tell her where they were”

    Sue that fucker.
    Sue him and Savon.
    Get every penny it’ll cost to raise and educate that child.

    Have a woman go in there with a recorder in her pocket.
    Get that moralizing prick on tape lying, and sue his balls off so he won’t be able to pollute the world with his idiot spawn.

    God DAMN these faux fundie fucksticks.

    Where’s the Rapture dammit?

  87. 87
    Mac Buckets says:

    Many of my friends have attributed my unmarried state to excessive listening to Elvis Costello.

    No such thing. Yeah, I’ve been seeing EC&A live since I was 12 years old, and I managed to, after an exhaustive search process, find someone who likes/tolerates EC, loves to go to shows, and who actually believes me when I tell her “I have to go to Amsterdam next month to see Elvis play with Art Brut!”

    Jesus, that comment was from you Mac? What kind of conservative listens to Elvis Costello?

    The best kind?

    Hey, did you ever find the non-wuss indie rock that you were looking for a couple months ago? I made a couple suggestions, but I’ve seen about 20 bands since that I’ve thought “D’oh, I should’ve rec’ed that to Doug!” Like Wolfmother, the kings of the neo-Zeppelin bloc.

    Lastly, if music predicts ideology, how are the most famous Bush-haters in music Green Day and Barbra Streisand?

    Really lastly, if anyone likes good music and hilarious videos, check out OK Go, a Chicago indie band that put out a very funny one-camera, one-take dance video for “A Million Ways To Be Cruel” that sparked a zillion hits on youtube and a “dance with OK Go” contest. Their new “dance” video is even better — if you see only one video this millenium, make it OK Go. To sweeten the deal for most of you, they also really hate Bush!

  88. 88
    ppGaz says:

    Tearing the tags off of matresses is only illegal for the store. It’s labelling; letting us know what’s in it. Read the statement again

    Read the statement?

    I think only in a world run by lawyers would anyone suppose that people would actually read the stuff on a mattress tag. Or on those little pamphlets of Job Security for Lawyers that your banks, credit card issuers and insurance companies send you all the time. Or the “Objects in Mirror are Larger …” messages.

    There’s a reason why people hate lawyers.

    They’re …. lawyers.

  89. 89
    ThymeZone says:

    Their new “dance” video is even better

    Can’t compete with the Blue Man group.

  90. 90
    Nutcutter says:

    Their new “dance” video is even better

    Can’t compete favorably with the Blue Man group.

  91. 91

    Hijackalope

    Bizarre… but I thought maybe nutcutter would appreciate a jackalope.

  92. 92
    Nutcutter says:

    Hijackalope

    “Mama, don’t let your babies grow up to be Republicans.”

    Works for me.

    My alter-ego, Jackalopez, an Hispanic jackalope, approves this advertisement.

  93. 93
    Tsulagi says:

    but I am sure we will spend the next few years unscrewing what these lunatics have meddled with.

    Yeah, ain’t that the truth? But I think it would take more than just a few years to repair the damage.

    This administration and its handlers have spent years gutting ALL agencies not only at the top levels but all the way down installing their lobotomized message keepers at all levels. When you hear of a 24-year-old gatekeeper filtering what NASA scientists can publicly say and write about science examining the origins of the universe or climate, you have a hint of the problem that exists that hasn’t been publicized.

  94. 94
    DougJ says:

    Hey, did you ever find the non-wuss indie rock that you were looking for a couple months ago? I made a couple suggestions, but I’ve seen about 20 bands since that I’ve thought “D’oh, I should’ve rec’ed that to Doug!”

    I found some, but not enough. I’d like to hear your recs.

  95. 95
    Nutcutter says:

    When you hear of a 24-year-old gatekeeper filtering what NASA scientists can publicly say and write about science examining the origins of the universe or climate, you have a hint of the problem that exists that hasn’t been publicized

    Indeed.

    And when the blind-deaf brigade stands around with their fingers in their noses going “Why do they hate Bush so much?” …. that’s the answer. The damage done. The breadth and depth of the damage done.

    Yeah, let’s squeak out a victory using a fight over hanging chads, and then proceed to undo the progress of the Twentieth Century, which we despise as Liberalism. Let’s undo science. Let’s undo civil rights. Let’s undo progressive law. Let’s undo Social Security. And let’s not do those things openly, honestly and in public. Let’s disguise our destruction, or hide it altogether.

    Let’s replace medical judgment with religious stricture. Let’s give massive tax breaks to the rich and fuck over the poor and the middle class to do it, and bankrupt the country in the process, because who cares? We’ve got ours.

    Do I hate Bush? Of course I do. He and his thugs and neocons have smashed or tried to smash everything that is good about America, or promising, or just, or even smart. You’re goddammed right I hate him.

  96. 96
    DougJ says:

    Hey, do you think this site is serious or a joke?
    http://www.livebreatheanddie.com/

    It’s pretty out there. This seems like something of a giveaway to me

    They wanted to kill us when Bill Clinton was president, they wanted to kill us when George Bush senior was President, they wanted us dead when Ronald Reagan was President, and most certainly when Jimmy Carter was president. This we know.

  97. 97
    Jcricket says:

    I am afraid to think how much damage these lunatics have done, but I am sure we will spend the next few years unscrewing what these lunatics have meddled with

    I’m totally with you John, unfortunately here’s what will happen. Voters will get so fed up with GOP shenanigans along with the destruction of American economical, military and diplomatic power, that they will vote Democrat in large enough percentages that the Democrats will retake the presidency, house and/or senate. The Democrats will do some investigations, add some oversight here and there, raise taxes and generally set us on the road to fixing things. Things go well for a while (say 4-8 years) – fiscal solvency will increase, budgets will get closer to balanced, large looming problems like SS/Medicare will get intelligent solutions, judges won’t be as threatened, etc.

    People will then forget what got us into the mess in the first place, and start blaming the Democrats for higher taxes, not banning flag burning or rump-shaking videos or other such important matters. Then the GOP will get elected, the cycle will repeat.

    Two things can change this: One, people actually understand that it’s unwise to elect a party to government that thinks government is the problem. Hahahahahahaha!

    Two, Democrats do the inverse of what Republicans have done, and pass laws that require oversight, eliminate signing statements, require the use of non-partisan budget numbers, eliminate non-scientist FDA reviews, etc.. That is, pass laws that limit the ability of the GOP to hide, obfuscate and otherwise insert their bullshit into governing should they retake either side of Congress. It’s not enough just to pass new laws or policies that correct the deleterious effects the GOP has created. It’s not enough to do one-time investigations. You have to create an environment where this kind of malfeasance and chicanery are significantly harder (nothing’s ever 100%) to accomplish.

    The GOP has had great success at passing laws that limit the ability of Democrats to even call anything into question, so doing the reverse would be good. Plus it would have the added bonus of keeping Democrats honest(er) too.

  98. 98
    Zifnab says:

    Hey, do you think this site is serious or a joke?
    http://www.livebreatheanddie.com/

    That’s a tough call. I mean, he’s basically parrioting everything I’ve ever heard on Hannity’s radio show. So unless you think Hannity is a spoof, this has all the ground roots of legitamacy (abet batshit crazy legitamacy).

  99. 99
    Zifnab says:

    Still, the truth is, that Mr. Gibson is a true Hollywood liberal. Few Hollywood liberals have any love for the Jewish people. They have badmouthed the Jewish studio heads for years. Mel Gibson is no different. He is Hollywood up to his eyeballs. He is Hollywood first, and everything else second. While addiction to drugs or alcohol is a terrible burden to carry, it is part and parcel of the Hollywood lifestyle. It is not the lifestyle of any serious Christian. When Christians have addiction problems, they seek help from within the Christian community. If you’re outside this community, it’s more difficult.

    A bit of his rant from Mel Gibbson. Yeah, I could see this being a spoof. It’s a bit too formulaic.

  100. 100
    ThymeZone says:

    Yes, I am changing my handle again.

    Curious fans can learn more by sending for my informative booklet, “Why I Changed My Handle Again”, just $19.95 plus shipping.

    If you order today, I may include my companion feature, “Why I Will Probably Change It Again” at no additional cost.

    { Add to Cart }

  101. 101
    mrmobi says:

    Jiminy:

    The GOP has had great success at passing laws that limit the ability of Democrats to even call anything into question, so doing the reverse would be good. Plus it would have the added bonus of keeping Democrats honest(er) too.

    It’s very likely your projected cycle might happen. The biggest advantage to regaining both houses would probably be that there would be a return to a full-blown oversight of the kind we haven’t seen since the beginning of one-party rule.

    The Senate, in particular, has become much less of a deliberative body during this administration. Frist may be a clueless dolt, but he’s an iron-fisted one. Bills don’t get out of committee unless he says so, and votes are routinely held open for hours while he and his operatives put the pressure on. Most of this kind of behavior hasn’t been seen before. It’s extremely authoritarian and disrespectful. I’m sure it comes straight out of the Rove playbook. There is no aspect of this government that hasn’t been infected by his brand of political ebola virus.
    But I’m not going to hold my breath waiting for Dems to act when and if they regain power. I may be a yellow dog democrat, but our system is flawed, most of all by big money. Citizens will need to be vigilant. I see the Lamont thing as a positive harbinger for that reason. Joe L is, by most any definition, a liberal democrat. It’s great to see that people in CT are motivated enough to want to move in a different direction even in the face of that. The Lieberman campaign seems panicked to me. Marshall Whitmann at Bull Moose is devoting most of his site to protecting Joe from “McGovernites with modems.” It’s pure political comedy gold, believe me!

  102. 102
    ThymeZone says:

    mrmobi: What you said.

  103. 103
    Krista says:

    Many of my friends have attributed my unmarried state to excessive listening to Elvis Costello.

    Then you just haven’t met the right woman. And if Elvis Costello himself can get a babe like Diana Krall, then why shouldn’t a devoted fan be able to pull off something similar?

    And Mac – Wolfmother frackin’ rocks. Every time “Woman” comes on the radio, I turn it up to cochlea-shattering levels.

  104. 104
    EL says:

    it isn’t a ‘spontaneous abortion pill’. all it does is block fertilization or implantation, neither of which are ‘abortion’. either that or regular birth control pills are ‘spontaneous abortion pills’ as well, and good luck with that argument.
    Blocking implantation was thought to be a possible, though secondary, mechanism in the past. Newer research says it doesn’t negatively affect implantation. As J Bean mentioned above, such hormones are now give to *maintain* pregnancy.

  105. 105
    EL says:

    Argh, I didn’t close the blockquote properly. Sorry for the repeat, but here’s the correct version:

    it isn’t a ‘spontaneous abortion pill’. all it does is block fertilization or implantation, neither of which are ‘abortion’. either that or regular birth control pills are ‘spontaneous abortion pills’ as well, and good luck with that argument.

    Blocking implantation was thought to be a possible, though secondary, mechanism in the past. Newer research says it doesn’t negatively affect implantation. As J Bean mentioned above, such hormones are now give to maintain pregnancy.

  106. 106
    Blue Shark says:

    Dear John.

    …Seems like you are waking up from the kool-aid party. Come to the Dark side John. Vote Democratic in 2006 and beyond. Help us save America.

  107. 107
    GOP4Me says:

    Hey, do you think this site is serious or a joke?

    I call spoof. We should add them to the Scrutator blogroll!

    Jcricket and mrmobi: I agree.

    Thymezone: I’m also thinking of changing my handle, either to “Crotch Shot” or to “The Asshole Formerly Known as GOP4Me.” Do you think John would go for either of those choices? I could also change it to George Bush, and just repeat “9/11 changed everything” and “Got wood?” and “Don’t forget Poland!” ad nauseam; change it to Donald Rumsfeld, and alternate between “freedom is messy”, “they’re somewhere to the north, south, east and west of X”, and “you X with the Y you have, not the Y you wish you had”; or change it to Thomas Jefferson, and just throw quotes about the Constitution into every debate about Gitmo and national spying programs. What do you think?

  108. 108
    Nutcutter says:

    What do you think?

    Great minds think alike.

    Now if I could just write like you.

    As for John, I think it all comes down to the page views.

    PVs up, life good. PVs down, life bad.

    Not that there’s anything wrong with that! ( ahem ) Scrutator (ahem ).

  109. 109
    Nutcutter says:

    Thymezone: I’m also thinking

    You can call me Herb.

  110. 110
    Pb says:

    Remember those reports of atrocities in Vietnam? Looks like those people were telling the truth. Now let’s see if the ‘Swift Boat Veterans for Truth’ are actually ‘for Truth’… Bets? Anyone?

  111. 111
    Mac Buckets says:

    Come to the Dark side John. Vote Democratic in 2006

    Can’t go five minutes without playing the race card, eh?

    ANYhoo…

    Doug–

    I found some, but not enough. I’d like to hear your recs.

    Give me some examples of what you liked, and I’ll be able to give you a better list, but a good sampling of recent bands might be…in approximate decreasing order of rockitude:

    Queens of the Stone Age, Eagles of Death Metal, Wolfmother (if K says it rocks, then you know it rocks), Black Rebel Motorcycle Club, Kings of Leon, The Raconteurs, Calexico, Broken Social Scene, The National, The Hold Steady, and The Long Winters.

  112. 112
    GOP4Me says:

    Great minds think alike.

    Too bad I can’t have 8 or 9 identities, then. Well, what the fuck, scs probably thinks we’re all just DougJ and the spambots anyway.

    Now if I could just write like you

    .

    See, the beauty of scs’s idea is that we’re all one collective mind anyway, so no one’s individual traits are really exclusively their own. It reminds me of the idea the Tom Joad is expounding on toward the end of “Grapes of Wrath”, about how there’s only one soul between us all and each human being only owns a part of that soul. scs has simply taken that idea to the BJ comments page- there’s only one writer, and each of us is just a facet of him. scs is a very profound philosopher, you see, clearly influenced by Goethe (and possibly Buddha, too, but it’s been a long time since college for me so I could be wrong about that one).

    You write pretty well yourself, ya know. Plus you write a lot more than I do; some people only come here to read your leftist rants. Why else do you think John has refrained from banning you for so long? I agree with this:

    As for John, I think it all comes down to the page views.

    PVs up, life good. PVs down, life bad.

    Not that there’s anything wrong with that! ( ahem ) Scrutator (ahem ).

    Scrutator’s dull now that it’s outed. We need a new idea. Preferably a good one. Then we can take it in a new direction, and page views will be up again. We still won’t make any money, though. Fuck!

  113. 113
    ThymeZone says:

    scs is a very profound philosopher, you see, clearly influenced by Goethe George Gobel

    Fixed.

  114. 114
    ThymeZone says:

    We still won’t make any money, though. Fuck!

    Yeah, but it was all about the babes ….

  115. 115
    chopper says:

    Well, actually, to the extent that The Pill prevents implantation of a fertilized blastocyst, it is an abortifacient. (Yes, at least half, and probably significantly more than half, of all fertilized ova abort abort spontaneously. That’s a red herring; human intent is the relevant issue here.)

    if you define pregnancy as fertilization, maybe. however, that doesn’t make too much sense. the common sense definition is upon implantation, not the mere presence of a fertilized embryo in the body.

    if you consider the presence of a fertilized embryo to be ‘pregnancy’, then consider when a doctor inserts fertilized embryos into a woman during an IVF procedure. merely inserting the ova into the woman, before any are implanted at all, would make the woman ‘pregnant’.

  116. 116
    Tsulagi says:

    Since it’s a lazy Sunday and too damn hot to be outside, I was just wondering who might be designated to take over the glorious Republican revolution of shredding the Constitution, the country, and making the world Rapture ready. Who will the base want after little Bush leaves to devote more time to playing with himself.

    My early prediction for 2008 Republican presidential candidate in the general election? Senator Sam Brownback of Kansas.

    That will happen after the McCains, Guilanis, and even Frists have been swiftboated out of the Republican primaries. McCain will once again be found to have illegitimate brown children. Guilani will be exposed having secret meetings with gay culture of death members. Frist? Well, he has been doing an admirable stupid impression for quite some time, but you can never trust someone who spent that many years at college getting an education. They’re tainted.

    Why Brownback? He has impeccable bona fides for the base. Currently he presides over a Jesus boys club of several hundred senators and congressmen that meet to push legislation they know Jesus would want. He also believes only one branch of government is needed. That being a small select group of men who would write and implement the laws Jesus wants.

    Small government conservatives should really love him. Sammy believes not only should government be pared way back, but that it should eventually wither and disappear. To be replaced by a unified Christian nation completely trusting a small group of men to make the decisions Jesus would want. You can almost hear Brownback’s talking zygotes clamoring for him now.

  117. 117
    Punchy says:

    Queens of the Stone Age, Eagles of Death Metal, Wolfmother (if K says it rocks, then you know it rocks), Black Rebel Motorcycle Club, Kings of Leon, The Raconteurs, Calexico, Broken Social Scene, The National, The Hold Steady, and The Long Winters.

    Wow…haven’t heard of any of these save K of Leon, which very well may be the best band I’ve heard in years. Big fan of Yonder Mountain as well…

  118. 118
    Punchy says:

    if you consider the presence of a fertilized embryo to be ‘pregnancy’, then consider when a doctor inserts fertilized embryos into a woman during an IVF procedure. merely inserting the ova into the woman, before any are implanted at all, would make the woman ‘pregnant’.

    I’m glad someone said it. “Abortion” is defined as the termination of pregnancy, NOT the destruction of life. So if “pregnancy” is simply a fertilized ovum, than one would say that IVF clinics have thousands of pregnancies, and every trip to the trash can is thousands of simultaneous abortions, and the parents of those gametes who OK’d the disposal are responsible for mulitiple abortions….and the lunacy of it all just continues.

    So to call Plan B “abortiofacient” or whatever is just fucking incorrect. Not that these fanatics pay any attention to facts and science…

  119. 119
    ThymeZone says:

    You can almost hear Brownback’s talking zygotes clamoring for him now.

    They’re …. beside themselves. So to speak.

  120. 120
    Jcricket says:

    It’s very likely your projected cycle might happen. The biggest advantage to regaining both houses would probably be that there would be a return to a full-blown oversight of the kind we haven’t seen since the beginning of one-party rule.

    The one thing I wish Dems would do is grow the equivalent “inverse” of the “spine” that Rove, Frist, etc. have when it comes to enforcing what they believe are their principles. Now on the Republican side this means shutting Democrats out of committees, strong-arming votes, eliminating oversight, etc. This is what makes their one-party rule so damaging, and so long-lasting. It’s not just the initial votes or policies, it’s how those are supported through dirty tricks, hiding evidence of their failure, diverting even more money in a shorter time to Republican causes, etc. Republicans are very good at passing laws that make it appear they’re having an effect they are not

    Democrats need to realize it’s not enough to pass laws/enact Democratic reforms. They need to pass laws that help ensure “the right things” keep happening, and that the Democrats get credit. Oversight with teeth, Lobbying Reform, elimination of bullshit tax-cut sun-setting tricks, etc. Besides the actual policies (like raising the SS wage cap), those other reforms (must use actuarially sound figures to prove your point) always benefit Dems. Because Dems are actually telling the truth.

  121. 121
    DougJ says:

    Mac: Thanks for those recs. I’m familiar with about half of them, but not Wolfmother.

    Krista: the thing about listening to too much Elvis is that it has made me so profoundly misanthropic that I have desire to meet people.

  122. 122
    ThymeZone says:

    it has made me so profoundly misanthropic that I have (no) desire to meet people.

    Luckily, you aren’t a real person, so that’s not a problem!

  123. 123
    chopper says:

    Wow…haven’t heard of any of these save K of Leon, which very well may be the best band I’ve heard in years. Big fan of Yonder Mountain as well…

    even queens of the stone age? they had a small hit a few years back off the ‘songs for the deaf’ record. which, BTW, is a fuckin rad as shit record. i’m not some uber-expert on stoner rock or anything, but that record is the shizzle.

    every song is good. better than good. you should buy it. you’ll be glad you did. has dave grohl on drums, and you can tell. the drumming is fucking great.

  124. 124
    GOP4Me says:

    Fixed.

    Sorry for the typo, I get my Germans confused sometimes.

    Yeah, but it was all about the babes ….

    Sure worked out for GOP4Me, didn’t it? Who’d he get? Mrs. GOP4Me, Lysistrata, Charybdis, some landlady, Mongo’s wife, and Mongo (but he was on roofies at the time, so it was against his will and he wasn’t really gay).

    GOP4Me had a Hell of a time over at that Scrutator place. Best swingers club on the Internet.

  125. 125

    My early prediction for 2008 Republican presidential candidate in the general election? Senator Sam Brownback of Kansas.

    Brownback, the only candidate who could make us nostalgic for the sense and sanity displayed by the Bush Administration.

  126. 126

    They’re …. beside themselves. So to speak.

    At least they’re Americans. More than you can say about those Lebanese people you keep blathering about- 99.9% of them don’t even hold US passports.

    Why do we allow illegal immigrants to take our jobs, while tens of thousands of hardworking American blastocysts sit idly in petri dishes? We need to draft US women to take these tiny Americans and bring them to term, so that they can grow up and vote Republican, contributing to a mighty snowflake economy of the future. They can deliver our pizzas, water our lawns, man our military, and build the better mousetraps of the 21st century.

    Either you’re with our snowflake legions, or you’re with the terrorists. Get with the program, moonbats.

  127. 127
    Andrew says:

    Hey, mac has good taste in music!

  128. 128
    DougJ says:

    This EC quote makes it clear how much he has influenced me:

    My ultimate vocation in life is to be an irritant. Not something actively destructive, but someone who irritates, who disorientates. Someone who disrupts the daily drag of life just enough to leave the victim thinking that maybe there’s more to it than the mere humdrum quality of existence.

  129. 129
    Zifnab says:

    Brownback, the only candidate who could make us nostalgic for the sense and sanity displayed by the Bush Administration.

    Put Brownback in front of a large enough mainstream audiance and he will inevitably do something tragically retarded. My favorite to date was his 4-year-old snowflake child’s blowup drawing of sad embryos who want you not to kill them.

    He’s just too… dumb. In his bible club he can get along just fine, but after 8 years of Bush, he’ll leave the rest of the nation groaning. As a Senator, he has not cultivated the skills to keep his big mouth shut, something Bush did manage to exhibit during the Bush/Gore debates.

  130. 130
    Krista says:

    Krista: the thing about listening to too much Elvis is that it has made me so profoundly misanthropic that I have (no) desire to meet people.

    Go listen to some Wolfmother, then. You’ll not only want to meet people, you’ll want to debauch yourself with them.

  131. 131
    Krista says:

    My ultimate vocation in life is to be an irritant. Not something actively destructive, but someone who irritates, who disorientates.

    Evidently, everybody on this site has the same vocation…creepy.

  132. 132
    RonB says:

    I second all of Mac Buckets’ alternachoices and add the Strokes, The Shins, and The Starlight Mints, even though the last two might not rock like QOTSA they do make some groovy, hep music.

    The Eagles of Death Metal did make my last “music” post as a reigning favorite CD purchase.

  133. 133

    Remember those reports of atrocities in Vietnam? Looks like those people were telling the truth. Now let’s see if the ‘Swift Boat Veterans for Truth’ are actually ‘for Truth’… Bets? Anyone?

    Interesting.

    But you fail to understand the motivations behind Swift Boat Vets for Bush. It was never about the atrocities, or whether or not the claim of atrocities was true or false.

    What it was about was pure unadulterated nationalism. That you would dare question the faith of our armed services, that was the crime. For if crimes did occur, they should be forgotten, hidden from the view of the public so as to not damage the reputation of the rest.

    That was their mentality. I heard it from talking to a few vets who believed them. It is the genius of their delusion, for to fight their delusion is to damage yourself.

    I think there must be a monster like this in Advanced D&D, a Level 23 whiney ass titty baby. The more you fight it directly, the stronger it becomes until you consume yourself.

    No, the only way to fight this beast, is to turn it’s attacks back on itself. To declare that their Truth in fact defames the good name of soldiers.

    For instance, I always wondered how the GOP would attack Bob Kerrey as a Presidential Candidate. I’m sure they would call him a war criminal, responsible for the massacre of women and children in Vietnam.

    You saw a bit of this in 2004 targetting John Kerry and Wesley Clark. Clark’s biggest crime supposedly was nearly going to blows with Russia by blocking an air strip to prevent unauthorized Russian soldiers from landing.

    Yep, that’s my dream ticket. Wes Clark and Bob Kerrey, just to see the heads explode within the Republican party.

  134. 134

    The Republican nominee in 2008 will be Newt Gingrich.

  135. 135
    Jay C says:

    TOS:
    “What it was about was pure unadulterated nationalism. That [one] would dare question the faith of [the] armed services, that was the crime. For if crimes did occur, they should be forgotten, hidden from the view of the public so as to not damage the reputation of the rest.”

    A good quote, Steve: : the first thing I thought of when I read this was that it would serve, with only minor editing, as a good precis of the Dreyfus Affair 110 years ago.

    It’s amazing how much has changed since then, and how much has (regretfully) stayed the same.

    In any case, it’s a consolation (of sorts) that Dreyfus, who was, after all, innocent, was eventually exonerated.

  136. 136
    ThymeZone says:

    What it was about was pure unadulterated nationalism. That you would dare question the faith of our armed services, that was the crime. For if crimes did occur, they should be forgotten, hidden from the view of the public so as to not damage the reputation of the rest.

    Um, no. People not old enough to remember the Vientnam war and the protest phoenomenon cannot understand it. Sorry to anyone who falls into that category, but that’s the way it is.

    First of all, you have to separate the Swiftees from their audience. A good deal of the audience falls into the category I’m talking about …. they weren’t there, and don’t get it. What they got, since they were just dimly aware of the facts, was what the Washington Monthly article last year referred to as “dynamite in the distance.” Noise, distraction, confusion, doubt. Maybe Kerry wasn’t quite the upstanding defender that he made himself out to be. That’s all they had to do, peel off a few percentage points, not prove a case or successfully reenact the period of 35 years ago.

    More importantly, they were hired to inflame the GOP base and get voters to the polls. Allow this quiche-eating rich liberal guy who hung out with Jane Fonda to become president? A paralyzed righty would pull himself to the polls by his teeth to vote and prevent that from happening.

    Peel a percentage point or two here, add a couple with GOTV and enraged-base emotion there, and bingo, you have the 4% shift you need to elect a drunk who couldn’t get up in the morning to fly his hours in Alabama over a guy who at least suited up and went to the war.

    It was masterful politics, but don’t make the mistake of thinking that people who didn’t live through that period understand anything about it. They simply don’t.

    Whether TOS has correctly figured the effect on the base that got them to the polls, I am not sure. My guess is that he overestimates the complexity of the thing.

    For example, the Swifty trashing of Kerry’s medals isn’t about respecing the military. Doing that basically disses every serviceman and every medal and every combat ribbon. The people who talked up that stuff weren’t out to protect the military from criticism, they were out to trash Kerry. They clearly don’t give a fuck about the military. The winners, the people who used that ploy to win, are basically fucking the military up the ass right and left now. Any suggestion that any of them really cared about the miitary then, or cares now, is suspect AFAIC. People who respect the military don’t pimp them into useless wars based on shitty intelligence, and then defend the practice later when the fuckup is exposed.

  137. 137
    Jay C says:

    TOS:
    “What it was about was pure unadulterated nationalism. That [one] would dare question the faith of [the] armed services, that was the crime. For if crimes did occur, they should be forgotten, hidden from the view of the public so as to not damage the reputation of the rest.”

    A good quote, Steve: : the first thing I thought of when I read this was that it would serve, with only minor editing, as a good precis of the Dreyfus Affair 110 years ago.

    It’s amazing how much has changed since then, and how much has (regretfully) stayed the same.

    In any case, it’s a consolation (of sorts) that Dreyfus, who was, after all, innocent, was eventually exonerated.

  138. 138
    demimondian says:

    Yes, Mac has good taste in music. It’s just that he’s managed to listen to good music without listening to the words — no, I don’t understand that part either.

  139. 139
    DougJ says:

    All right, from now on all of my posts will be about Elvis Costello. It will bring Mac and me closer together. Elvis is a uniter not a divider. You may be frightened by how rich a vein of conversation this is for me.

    The title of ABC’s The Note last week was “Joementum: Five Gears in Reverse.” http://abcnews.go.com/Politics.....038;page=1

    Mac, I expect that you understand the reference, but I fear that the others won’t.

  140. 140
    DougJ says:

    Did you know that I almost asked Nick Hornsby to sign my copy of High Fidelity with the enscription “Some things you never get used to, even though you’re feeling like another man”? I lost my nerve, though, when I got the front of the line.

  141. 141
    ThymeZone says:

    even though you’re feeling like another man

    I don’t know what that means, Doug. I’ve never had a man.

    Darrell told me to say that to you, by the way.

  142. 142
    ThymeZone says:

    even though you’re feeling like another man

    I don’t know what that means, Doug. I’ve never had a man.

    Darrell told me to say that to you, by the way.

  143. 143
    ThymeZone says:

    even though you’re feeling like another man

    I don’t know what that means, Doug. I’ve never had a man.

    Darrell told me to say that to you, by the way.

  144. 144
    DougJ says:

    Was that really so clever it had to be repeated three times?

  145. 145
    ThymeZone says:

    I have no idea why that posted thrice. I hit submit, put the laptop down on the sofa, and went to the kitchen.

    No cats walked on the keyboard.

  146. 146
    Fruitbat says:

    Yes, I’m mostly a lurker, but I can’t resist jumping in on a semi-discussion of indie/lesser-known bands. Props to you, Mac B, for singling out Broken Social Scene and The Hold Steady, two of the most important bands of the last few years (at least in my own life).

    I’d also toss in these bands onto the “don’t suck/aren’t whiny” pile: Wolf Parade, TV on the Radio, The Black Keys, Animal Collective (mindblowing stuff, that), The New Pornographers, Giant Drag, Sleater-Kinney (RIP), and The Fiery Furnaces (especially their first two albums).

    Glad I could contribute something. Finally.

  147. 147
    RonB says:

    Elvis is a uniter not a divider.

    Elvis is in everybody…everybody’s gotta little Elvis in em…’cept for one person..yeah..one person…the Anti-Elvis…the evil opposite of Elvis…Anti-Elvis got no Elvis in him.

    Darrell has no Elvis in him.

  148. 148
    fwiffo says:

    Well, actually, to the extent that The Pill prevents implantation of a fertilized blastocyst, it is an abortifacient.

    No, no no no no NO NO. I fucking hate it when people are on the right side of the argument but still get everything wrong. There is no evidence, nor mechanism for Plan B to prevent implantation of a fertilized blastocyst. That’s not how it works. It uses the same mechanism as the regular birth control pill (which makes sense, because it’s the same thing in a higher dose). All it does – the only mechanism by which it is known to prevent pregnancy, is by preventing ovulation. That’s it.

    Please, please read PZ Myer’s description if that isn’t clear to you here and here.

  149. 149
    Krista says:

    Well Doug, next time I wear my red shoes, I’ll be thinking of you. :)

  150. 150
    Krista says:

    fwiffo – it does do one other thing besides prevent ovulation, if it’s the same as the birth control pill. It also (sorry to gross anybody out) thickens the cervical mucus, in order to make it much more difficult for any sperm to actually get into the uterus.

    And that function ALSO has nothing to do with abortion.

  151. 151
    Darrell says:

    Darrell has no Elvis in him.

    Still obsessing over me Ron? Even when we don’t have an exchange? Hey, I checked out your blog and I think you are really knowledgeable and have a firm grip on reality.. as evidenced by your insightful comments like this one:

    Iran was not developing nuclear weapons and still is not doing so

    I think we all could learn a lot from people like you.

  152. 152
    Darrell says:

    And that function ALSO has nothing to do with abortion

    I stand corrected on my earlier characterization of it as an “abortion” pill. I imagine the FDA is concerned with the fact that while B-control pills require a prescription, this pill would be over the counter.. That explanation seems more likely based than a theocratic takeover of the FDA… but you never know.

  153. 153
    DougJ says:

    RonB — different Elvis. You’ve also paid Darrell a back-handed compliment of sorts by equating him with Michael J. Fox.

  154. 154
    Gary Farber says:

    “Longtime readers will know that the event that really set my down the path to hating the current Republican leadership is the outrageous and outlandish lies that were told during the Trri Schiavo fiasco….”

    Nah. Johnny-come-lately readers will know that. Longtime readers will remember a certain Sgt. Schultz….

  155. 155
    Krista says:

    I stand corrected on my earlier characterization of it as an “abortion” pill. I imagine the FDA is concerned with the fact that while B-control pills require a prescription, this pill would be over the counter..

    There’s a reason for that, however. Not all birth control pills are created equal. They all have different levels of hormones in them, and the doctor often has to determine what type of pill would work best for each woman. You don’t want to give them more hormones than necessary, but you definitely want to give them enough.

    However, in regards to EC, this isn’t a drug that women would be using every day. Women will not be taking this on a regular basis, so it can be a “one-size-fits-all” scenario.

    The other factor is that, as we’ve heard, there are some very unscrupulous pharmacists or doctors out there who have moral objections to EC, because they believe it’s an abortifacient. J Bean told us of the pharmacist at Savon who lied and told a married woman that EC was only available at “special” pharmacies. There was a really interesting article in Marie Claire a couple of months ago — the writer wanted to see how easy it would be to get heroin vs. getting EC. It took her about 20 minutes to get heroin. After three days of running around, she still didn’t have EC. This was in upstate New York. And yes, I know Planned Parenthood carries it, but I don’t believe they’re open on weekends, nor are they present in every town.

    In an emergency situation like a contraceptive failure or rape, we can’t risk having these women betrayed by people who are supposed to be looking out for their health. They should just make it over the counter, and print up very clear, precise, non-jargon instructions with it, including a 1-800 helpline in case the user has any questions.

  156. 156
    Darrell says:

    There was a really interesting article in Marie Claire a couple of months ago—the writer wanted to see how easy it would be to get heroin vs. getting EC. It took her about 20 minutes to get heroin

    I believe that the same article pointed out that in Canada, she could get breast implants faster than a mammogram, given the 6 month+ wait lists. There’s lots of prescription drugs of more urgent health priority which take longer to acquire than buying drugs on a street corner, so I’m not sure if that analogy you present tells us much.

    Let’s all play Krista’s game – a woman in Canada can more easily and quickly buy heroin (and EC’s?) than she can a gun to protect herself against a stalker threatening her life.

    In the case of rape, has there been a report of ANY hospital treatment facility refusing to administer EC to a rape victim?

  157. 157
    Krista says:

    Darrell, I don’t believe the article brought up any mention of Canada, nor did I. So I’m not sure why you’re trying to turn this into some sort of game.

    Nor am I sure why you’re being so adversarial about it — do you think that EC shouldn’t be readily available to those who need it?

  158. 158
    Krista says:

    I find this to be quite telling (emphasis mine):

    In a statement to Women’s eNews about the approach that Catholic hospitals take to administering Plan B to rape survivors, the St. Louis-based Catholic Health Association of the United States said that most Catholic hospitals test for a pregnancy that occurred before and is unrelated to the sexual assault.

    “If the pregnancy test is negative, the woman is offered emergency contraception. Some other Catholic hospitals test for ovulation in order to check whether a woman is at the point in her menstrual cycle when conception might have already occurred. Since there is no current method for ascertaining that an ovum has been fertilized until implantation, this tests whether conception is a possibility (though a remote one, less than 1 percent to 5 percent). Because of the assumptions of the ovulation approach, it would not be morally licit to give a woman emergency contraception at this point. Nor would it be morally licit to refer a woman who has been sexually assaulted to another provider to receive emergency contraception if she has ovulated recently. This would mean that the woman receives emergency contraception at a point in her cycle when the medication is believed to have an abortifacient effect.”

    So, if you’re unlucky enough to be raped right around when you’re ovulating, and the only hospital nearby is a Catholic one, then you’re shit out of luck, ’cause the church would rather you bear the baby of a rapist.

  159. 159
    Punchy says:

    And that function ALSO has nothing to do with abortion.

    But it has EVERYTHING to do with making me lose my appetite. Nothing like OJ and pop-tarts over a discussion of cervical mucus viscosity.

    Funny pill story–was OK’d by friend to eat the “placebo” BC pills to see what they tasted like. Ate 4 of ’em at once. Was told 2 days later that I ate the strongest-dose ones by mistake. 4 of ’em. Figgered that explained my 2-day cooking binge and inexplicable desire to watch a movie on Lifetime…

  160. 160
    Ancient Purple says:

    Nor am I sure why you’re being so adversarial about it—do you think that EC shouldn’t be readily available to those who need it?

    Of course he doesn’t. He would rather support the “Jesus hates sex” crowd over science. After all, they are the “reasonable” ones.

  161. 161
    Krista says:

    Punchy, I’m surprised you didn’t get sick, actually! On the (rare) occasion that I’ve missed a pill and had to take two in a row, the nausea was completely incapacitating.

    Lifetime? Jaysus…I’d have to be megadosing on estrogen as well to watch that crap.

  162. 162
    Ancient Purple says:

    So, if you’re unlucky enough to be raped right around when you’re ovulating, and the only hospital nearby is a Catholic one, then you’re shit out of luck, ‘cause the church would rather you bear the baby of a rapist.

    I believe that’s right out of the Gospel of Luke. Yup.

    “Jesus said, ‘She was raped? Ha. She deserved it and now she has to pay the price of being a slut. Let her bear the baby so she knows from now until the day of her death what a filthy, vile tramp she is.'”

  163. 163
    EL says:

    Ok Darryl, you’re up to 3 strikes.

    I stand corrected on my earlier characterization of it as an “abortion” pill.

    Strike one.

    I imagine the FDA is concerned with the fact that while B-control pills require a prescription, this pill would be over the counter.

    Wrong again. The FDA’s expert panel voted overwhelming that it was safe to go over the counter. It is safer than long term birth control pills for the simple reason that the real risk of BC pills are long term, not from brief use. You could think of it roughly analogous to high blood pressure. Blood pressures normally fluctuates, and brief episodes of high blood pressure are not generally a problem. Long term high blood pressure can cause strokes.

    What is coming out of the FDA is not that the scientists were concerned about Plan B, but that the political appointees told the scientists they weren’t going to approve it. One argument shot to pieces, and not even a good try – I suppose it’s too much to hope that you’d do some research before you post this stuff? Or do you know it and post it any way, thinking to score points with those not following the argument closely?

    In the case of rape, has there been a report of ANY hospital treatment facility refusing to administer EC to a rape victim?

    Yes. Many cases, in fact. Not only where they won’t prescribe it, but also where they won’t even inform the rape victim that it exists. Which means she may not know to ask someone else to prescribe it.

    One of the key things left out of many of these discussions is the way efficacy drops with time. Roughly, it drops by about 10% every 24 hours. It’s approximately 95% effective at 24 hours, 84% at 48 hours, 75% at 72 hours. So it isn’t like everything is fine if you have to wait a day or two and still get it under the 72 hour mark.

  164. 164
    Ryan S. says:

    Such a law could be very difficult to craft and more harm than good. After all, what constitutes ‘effective’? How much harm is OK when it’s an anti-cancer drug for an agressive tumor?

    EL, That is a discussion/decision that should be made between the Doctor/Patient. The FDA’s responsibility should only be to keep the drug companies honest in their claims, by doing, comprehensive, exhastive, long term studies, in efficacy, and harms. You know kinda what you’d expect them to do. We have laws against the President using the various other branches of government for political gain, seems to me only logical why we can to that for the FDA.

  165. 165
    neil says:

    I am not even going to pretend to be surprised, as it is clear now that this is what the administration has done since day one.

    Well said — this is exactly how I feel about it myself. The only difference, I suppose, is that I have _known_ that they operated this way since day one, and accordingly, I didn’t vote for them, twice. Mr. Cole, on the other hand…

  166. 166
    EL says:

    I would absolutely agree with a law that says “keep your political hands off the FDA.” In fact, I’d love to see a law that says if you appoint a political hack to a technical postion, it’s automatic impeachment.

  167. 167
    ThymeZone says:

    Or do you know it and post it any way, thinking to score points with those not following the argument closely?

    Darrell is not looking to score points. He is looking to be a conduit for the righty noise machine, into BJ.

  168. 168
    DougJ says:

    My attitude towards Darrell: I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused.

  169. 169
    Jim Allen says:

    My attitude towards Darrell: I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused.

    You really don’t need to pick just one, you know.

    And yes, I know, it was just another opportunity to channel Mr. Krall.

  170. 170
    demimondian says:

    I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused

    Hmm. And here I thought your attitude was more like “I’ll tramp the dirt down”.

  171. 171
    Darrell says:

    Target audience: Reality based community

  172. 172
    DougJ says:

    Not a big fan of Spike-era Elvis, Demi. Mostly downhill after Blood and Chocolate, IMHO, though I like Brutal Youth. And the Elvis of today…don’t even get me started. When the inevitable messy divorce from Diane Krall gets underway, maybe we’ll get another good album.

  173. 173
    ThymeZone says:

    Target audience

    When you find that audience, write and let us know.

    Meanwhile, go away.

  174. 174
    DougJ says:

    That said, I do respect that Elvis still makes albums regularly. He and the Woodman both get respect for putting continuing to put out product, through thick and thin, good times and bad. That’s why I continue to comment here even though I’ve grown bored with the place: my fan base demands and deserves regular output from me.

  175. 175

    I stand corrected on my earlier characterization of it as an “abortion” pill. I imagine the FDA is concerned with the fact that while B-control pills require a prescription, this pill would be over the counter.. That explanation seems more likely based than a theocratic takeover of the FDA… but you never know.

    That would seem reasonable, except that the FDA scientists already testified that they didn’t even finish their report on the safety issues before the theocrats ruled.

    Obviously, moving a drug to OTC status has to take into consideration a variety of items, including what effects it might have were it to be used improperly.

    But, again, that study wasn’t completed before the theocrats ruled. So could we please at least try to acknowledge facts in this discussion instead of pulling shit out of your ass?

    What’s interesting, is that the anti-birth control contingent pretty much brought this on themselves. By fighting the easy distribution of plan-B through pharmacists, they fueld advocacy for making it available over the counter.

  176. 176
    Krista says:

    Target audience: Reality based community

    Awww…you are just so damned adorable when you’re grasping at straws!

  177. 177

    Target audience: Reality based community

    Oh, come on Darrell. That site is so boring.

    I can do much better than that! Or didn’t you know that George Bush tried to have Reagan assassinated?

    Any more out of you and I’ll have to bring up Vince Foster, and the Indiana Representative who proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was murdered by shooting watermelons in his backyard.

  178. 178
    Krista says:

    That’s why I continue to comment here even though I’ve grown bored with the place: my fan base demands and deserves regular output from me.

    That’s why not many people are commenting today. DougJ’s head has taken up all the room on the blog.

  179. 179
    demimondian says:

    And the Elvis of today…don’t even get me started.

    Did you know that he and Sting were going to get together for some recordings? Yeah: working title “StinCostello”, short form “StinC”

  180. 180
    Darrell says:

    I can do much better than that!

    Definitely worthy of at least an honorable mention.

  181. 181
    Pb says:

    So, I saw Bush on the TV making a speech… did anyone notice? Apparently–according to Bush–the United States’ previous policy of ‘stability’ in the world was over-rated. But don’t worry, he’s fixed all that! However, it sounds like he’s not done ‘spreading Democracy’ yet.

    Once the transcript comes out, I would love to debunk the whole thing, line by line, but really I don’t want to write a book. However, to make a long story short, according to George W. Bush, it sounds like we have a right and a duty to the people of the world to overthrow Iran and Syria and North Korea and Cuba and Venezuela and Saudi Arabia and Russia and China and ‘spread Democracy’ there at the barrel of a gun.

    And that should fix that pesky stability problem once and for all!

  182. 182
    tomtom says:

    “What disgusts me the most is the outright perversion of the Christ message that Bush’s “base” has embraced. Sex is the devil. Intimacy is evil. Finding sex pleasurable is pure sin. All because they think Jesus hates genitalia.”

    The best way I’ve ever heard this put is by a former religion professor of mine. What is this mentality?

    Theology of the pelvis.

  183. 183
    Ancient Purple says:

    Target audience: Reality based community

    I guess the only thing more out of touch with reality would be some conservative claiming that the internment of Japanese-Americans during WWII was a good thing.

    Of course, no one would be so idiotic as to make such a claim.

  184. 184
    DougJ says:

    Did you know that he and Sting were going to get together for some recordings?

    Sting is in a special category for me. I feel that Elvis and many other artists produced some great work and also some crappy work, but that we can’t hold the crappy work against them. After all, crappiness is the natural state of things (that sounds better in the original Latin). It isn’t that they went soft or crazy, it’s that their talent was merely insufficient to fight off the gravitational pull of mediocrity.

    But Sting…where to even start?

  185. 185
    Krista says:

    What disgusts me the most is the outright perversion of the Christ message that Bush’s “base” has embraced. Sex is the devil. Intimacy is evil. Finding sex pleasurable is pure sin. All because they think Jesus hates genitalia

    Close, but not quite. Has anybody noticed the remarkable lack of protestations against Viagra from the theocons?

    From what I’ve gathered, listening to these arguments for years, the only sex that the theocons approve of is that between married, same-race, opposite-gender, wealthy Christians, in the missionary position (wonder why it’s named that?) with the lights off, solely for the purpose of procreation, and with no deviations from that standard whatsoever. That’s the only “normal” kind of sex, as far as they’re concerned.

  186. 186
    DougJ says:

    Sex is the devil. Intimacy is evil. Finding sex pleasurable is pure sin.

    I realize that these are overblown positions, but when I hear Sting talk about his hours of Tantric sex, I can’t help but agree just a little bit.

  187. 187
    demimondian says:

    But Sting…where to even start?

    He’s still more musically talented than Bono.

  188. 188
    John S. says:

    Has anybody noticed the remarkable lack of protestations against Viagra from the theocons?

    Of course. All you have to do is make a slight modification to one of the blockquotes you provided to find the answer:

    Women finding sex pleasurable is pure sin. All because they think Jesus hates female genitalia.

    It’s just misogyny dressed up in religious clothing. The theocons take a similar view of women as many conservative Muslims, and the irony is they don’t even realize it.

  189. 189
    DougJ says:

    He’s still more musically talented than Bono.

    That’s part of what is so awful about him. The early Police songs were really quite clever and Sting’s faux Jamaican falsetto stylings worked (unlike his current faux jazz stylings). Bono, by contrast, is doing his best, in my opinion. He just has no talent. Should he be condemned for defiling the tradition of Shane Magowan and Van Morrison? Certainly. But he’s just a loser; Sting is truly evil.

  190. 190
    ThymeZone says:

    By fighting the easy distribution of plan-B through pharmacists, they fueld advocacy for making it available over the counter.

    True. It’s sad, though, that the only thing standing between us and these “values” thugs is the law of unintended consequences.

  191. 191
    demimondian says:

    The early Police songs were really quite clever and Sting’s faux Jamaican falsetto stylings worked (unlike his current faux jazz stylings). Bono, by contrast, is doing his best, in my opinion. He just has no talent.

    “Some people are born mediocre // some have mediocrity thrust upon then // and some acheive mediocrity”, eh? Perhaps I have more empathy for those in the last category, I guess…

  192. 192
    ThymeZone says:

    That’s part of what is so awful about him. The early Police songs were really quite clever and Sting’s faux Jamaican falsetto stylings worked (unlike his current faux jazz stylings). Bono, by contrast, is doing his best, in my opinion. He just has no talent. Should he be condemned for defiling the tradition of Shane Magowan and Van Morrison? Certainly. But he’s just a loser; Sting is truly evil.

    I assume that’s spoofaloopa poopa doopa.

    Otherwise we may have revisit the “math and music” wars, where I will thrash you to within an inch of your life, again. But anyway, figuring that you won’t be foolish enough to do that ….

    Let me ‘splain something to you about music: Most of it is in the performance. Sting might just enjoy performing whatever it is he does, just for the sake of doing it. It’s pretty much the same reason that people sing in the shower.

    Whether anyone cares for it or not, or whether that performance manages to get into the tiny sliver of performances that people will pay money to hear, is a whole ‘nother thing. And largely out of the control of the performer. You can sing loud, or often, but you can’t them pay to hear you. If you get my drift.

    So just in case your spoofalopolous spoofishness were intended to be taken seriously …. a giant raspberry for you.

  193. 193
    Krista says:

    Doug, I just sent you that Wolfmother song I was talking about. Enjoy!

  194. 194
    ThymeZone says:

    “you can’t make them pay ….”

    Is the omission of words a certain indicator of Alzheimers?

    Just asking. I’m sure the math majors will know. If not, the lawyers.

  195. 195
    DougJ says:

    Thanks, Krista.

    ThymeZone:

    It’s pretty much the same reason that people sing in the shower.

    I don’t think that my singing in the shower, which is, if you must know, is often done in a faux Jamaican falsetto, entitles me to talk about myself in the third person or to regale journalists with made-up stories of my ability to have sex for three hours at a time via Tantric meditation.

    You’re against Sting, or you’re with the terrorists.

  196. 196
    demimondian says:

    Hmm. ThymeZnot, I was a dual major, math and voice, in college. Public performance for a paying audience is a qualitatively different form of performance than private performance for your own pleasure — if you’re paying me to sing for you, I owe you more than a chance to watch me dial it in.

    In String’s case, he’s getting by on a past brilliance, and he’s frankly wasting real skill.

  197. 197
    DougJ says:

    I promised myself I wouldn’t spend too much time here today, but if you’re going to say that my singing in the shower justifies Sting’s atrocities, then I have no choice but to stay and argue.

    You know who I worry could be the next Sting: John Mayer. I pray that I’m wrong.

  198. 198
    ThymeZone says:

    I don’t think that my singing in the shower, which is, if you must know, is often done in a faux Jamaican falsetto, entitles me to talk about myself in the third person or to regale journalists with made-up stories of my ability to have sex for three hours at a time via Tantric meditation.

    Well, I don’t want to talk about you singing in the shower any more than is absolutely necessary. So that’s a good tactic on your part.

    But anyway, let’s not conflate music with ego. Sting has a huge ego. However, you can’t regale journalists unless journalists unless they are within earshot, and listening to you. So I would tend to think that the journalists are the culpable ones.

    As for talking about himself in the third person, Thymezone has no opinion. Maybe he just needs more seasoning.

  199. 199
    ThymeZone says:

    if you’re paying me to sing for you, I owe you more than a chance to watch me dial it in.

    If I have to pay you to sing for me, then I will have to kill myself.

    But, send me an audition tape. If you can girl it like Ray Charles, you may have a future …..

  200. 200
    Krista says:

    But, send me an audition tape. If you can girl it like Ray Charles, you may have a future …..

    You may have a future, and ThymeZone will have a nice little blackmail item.

  201. 201
    demimondian says:

    I promised myself I wouldn’t spend too much time here today, but if you’re going to say that my singing in the shower justifies Sting’s atrocities, then I have no choice but to stay and argue.

    Look, there’s no moral parallel between what you accidentally do to the innocent unfortunates when you sing in the shower and the organized atrocities which Sting and other faux musicians perpetrate on a regular basis. Just because third parties can protect themselves by wearing earplugs does not reduce his moral culpability.

  202. 202
    DougJ says:

    I would also argue that Sting’s current music sucks. It’s easy listening bullshit. He’s gone from emulating Desmond Dekker and Joe Strummer to sounding like Michael Bolton and Kenny G. Maybe he “likes” singing this way. But I say it sucks. And all right-thinking people agree with me.

  203. 203
    ThymeZone says:

    Public performance for a paying audience is a qualitatively different form of performance than private performance for your own pleasure

    Heh. That depends on who is paying, how many are paying, and what they are paying for.

    However, I’m gratified that you managed to miss such an obvious point. The point is that musicians perform because that’s what they like to do. Whereas audiences listen or pay because that is what they want to do.

    No matter how much the artist is driven to perform, he can’t make anyone listen to him.

    Well, except for Condi Rice. For whom the male pronoun works just fine, too.

  204. 204
    DougJ says:

    I don’t get it, TZ: I’m not allowed to hate Sting for being a pompous ass who produces crappy music that is often played in public places? You’ve changed, man.

  205. 205
    Punchy says:

    From what I’ve gathered, listening to these arguments for years, the only sex that the theocons approve of is that between married, same-race, opposite-gender, wealthy Christians, in the missionary position

    You left out “and sex with little children, or at least the fanatasy thereof”. Please be more thorough next time.

    Signed,
    The Department of Homeland Security

  206. 206
    ThymeZone says:

    I would also argue that Sting’s current music sucks. It’s easy listening bullshit. He’s gone from emulating Desmond Dekker and Joe Strummer to sounding like Michael Bolton and Kenny G. Maybe he “likes” singing this way. But I say it sucks. And all right-thinking people agree with me.

    Yes they do, all three of them.

    But anyway, Sting has more money than Croesus, and a brain that is probably fried to a crisp. So what does he care? Musicians also just run out of juice. Miles Davis got it right. He didn’t play for …. what? …. a lot of years. He basically said, I can’t just go out there and keep doing the same shit just because people want to hear me do it. And he had nothing new to do. There’s a limit to how much new material an artist can crank out.

    He’s hardly unique in his decline into brain-deadening mediocrity with time. Just look at Darrell, for example.

  207. 207
    ThymeZone says:

    I’m not allowed to hate Sting for being a pompous ass who produces crappy music that is often played in public places? You’ve changed, man.

    Of course you are. There, there. Everything is all right.

    And, no I haven’t. My job is to piss you off. That was my job when you came here. Like the postman delivering the mail, I get the job done through thick and thin.

  208. 208
    ThymeZone says:

    Signed,
    The Department of Homeland Security Approved Sexuality

    Fixed.

  209. 209

    I don’t much care for Elvis Costello.

    There I’ve said it.

    I like Sting, U2. I also like Tori Amos, Nirvana, 10,000 Maniacs… Lynyrd Skynrd and Journey. Not to mention Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, and Dave Matthews Band. Oh yeah, and Dave Brubeck, AC/DC and Holly Cole.

    And I think you just think Sting is evil because of his part in Dune.

  210. 210
    Punchy says:

    You may have a future, and ThymeZone will have a nice little blackmail item.

    There’s Kris…playing the race card…

  211. 211
    ThymeZone says:

    I like Sting, U2. I also like Tori Amos, Nirvana, 10,000 Maniacs… Lynyrd Skynrd and Journey. Not to mention Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, and Dave Matthews Band. Oh yeah, and Dave Brubeck, AC/DC and Holly Cole.

    You will be mortified to learn that my own list is not much different. I assume that this means you will have to start taking mood elevators. Agreeing with me has got to feel like being told you have incurable athlete’s foot.

    You do mean early Sting, of course?

  212. 212
    DougJ says:

    TOS — there’s some ulgy stuff on your list, I can’t deny it.

    TZ: Miles Davis was truly an artist in a way that very people are. I know he was a jerk and everyone hated him, but I can’t think of anyone who produced as much great stuff as he did.

  213. 213
    tBone says:

    I like Sting, U2. I also like Tori Amos, Nirvana, 10,000 Maniacs… Lynyrd Skynrd and Journey. Not to mention Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, and Dave Matthews Band. Oh yeah, and Dave Brubeck, AC/DC and Holly Cole.

    I like Aerosmith. Even some of their newer stuff.

    Oh, the shame.

  214. 214
    Punchy says:

    I like Sting, U2. I also like Tori Amos, Nirvana, 10,000 Maniacs… Lynyrd Skynrd and Journey. Not to mention Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, and Dave Matthews Band. Oh yeah, and Dave Brubeck, AC/DC and Holly Cole.

    Ah…so many dead-member bands…what an eclectic mix of music….DMB and Nirvana? Where’s Big Head Todd, Martin Zellar, and Public Enemy?

  215. 215
    SeesThroughIt says:

    I know he was a jerk and everyone hated him, but I can’t think of anyone who produced as much great stuff as he did.

    It sounds like you’re talking about James Brown here, although calling him a jerk is a huge understatement. The guy was an unmitigated asshole. But he’s also responsible for some of the greatest, most important, most influential music ever made. But if we’re going to give props to James–and we should–we also need to give props to the people who actually played the music: Clyde Stubblefield, Jabo Starks, Pee Wee Ellis, Fred Wesley, Catfish Collins, Charles Sherrell, Maceo Parker, Jimmy Nolen, St. Clair Pinckney, Bootsy Collins, and many more.

  216. 216
    ThymeZone says:

    I know he was a jerk and everyone hated him,

    Yes, he is my idol.

  217. 217
    mrmobi says:

    Nutcut…er ThymeZone:

    Miles Davis got it right. He didn’t play for …. what? …. a lot of years. He basically said, I can’t just go out there and keep doing the same shit just because people want to hear me do it. And he had nothing new to do. There’s a limit to how much new material an artist can crank out.

    Basically correct. Miles was always moving forward, and he always surrounded himself with the very best musicians. There’s a story that Keith Jarrett tells about being on tour with Miles. Miles was sick and could barely play. In the middle of a very “electric rock” set he suddenly started playing a haunting ballad. When Keith asked him afterward why he did it, he said something like, “It’s what I do best, but I’ve done that already.”

    Late in his life, Miles uncharacteristically agreed to a re-performance of one of his greatest early albums “Miles Ahead,” a suite of tunes arranged by Gil Evans. I’ve seen a tape of the performance, (I think it was at the Montreal Jazz Festival) and it’s one of the saddest things you could watch. There are all these great musicians watching their idol, barely able to play, try to re-create an earlier piece of magic.

    Sorry to hijack the thread, but, for me, Miles Davis, Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart and J.S. Bach add up to proof of the existence of god. Van Morrison gets an honorable mention.

  218. 218
    ThymeZone says:

    Sorry to hijack the thread, but, for me, Miles Davis, Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart and J.S. Bach add up to proof of the existence of god. Van Morrison gets an honorable mention.

    I agree totally. Not necessarily with your exact list.

    Mine is slightly different and includes names like Richter, Pavarotti, Armstrong, Ellington, and Vaughan. But the principle is the same.

  219. 219
    Pb says:

    I’d take Billy Idol over Journey any day.

  220. 220

    I like Sting, U2. I also like Tori Amos, Nirvana, 10,000 Maniacs… Lynyrd Skynrd and Journey. Not to mention Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, and Dave Matthews Band. Oh yeah, and Dave Brubeck, AC/DC and Holly Cole.

    I liked Sting, before he descended into the elevator shaft music genre. I like Nirvana, Skynrd, Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, AC/DC, plus a smattering of songs by the other people you mention.

    I also like early Metallica, Iron Maiden, Tom Waits, Public Enemy, Johnny Cash, NWA, Geto Boys, 2 Live Crew, David Bowie, the Bauhaus, the Sex Pistols, Marvin Gaye, Kraftwerk, Devo, Frank Zappa, Ween, most cheesy movie soundtracks (think “Scarface” and “Transformers: the Movie”), and an eclectic assortment of other bands from a wide variety of genres. The funnier, the better. Doesn’t matter whether the humor is intentional or not: if John Ashcroft put out an album, I’d probably buy it just for the weirdness value. I own John Zorn’s “Locus Solus” for exactly this reason, and I urge none of you to listen to it. (I urge all of you not to listen to it. Is that saying the same thing?)

    And I think you just think Sting is evil because of his part in Dune.

    Yes, it is part of why he’s evil. But it’s also part of why I like him. Better evil than mediocre, which is where he is now.

    And give Dune credit for sowing the seeds of a David Lynch/Kyle MacLachlan collaboration, which later grew into a towering oak that bore such fruit (well, at least tasty acorns, anyway) as “Blue Velvet” and “Twin Peaks”.

  221. 221

    I like Aerosmith. Even some of their newer stuff.

    Don sackcloth and ashes, slice deep gouges into your scalp, and weep openly. Wander into the wilderness, subsisting for 40 days and 40 nights on locusts and rainwater, while you repent for your atrocious iniquities. It is the Will of God, the God of Abraham and Isaac and Miles Davis and Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart and Johann Sebastian Bach. (And Van Morrison, too, but you forgot to mention Tchaikovsky, mrmobi.)

    Fear not, brother. I, too, am a sinner. I shall join you in the wilderness, for my use of music as a comedy prop in the silly soundtrack perpetually ongoing in the back of my mind is equally offensive in the sight of the Lord.

    On a possibly related note, is it still okay to like Michael Jackson? How about the Jackson 5?

  222. 222
    Pb says:

    The Asshole Formerly Known as GOP4Me,

    I saw Bauhaus in concert not too long ago, and I wasn’t that impressed. They weren’t the main act, though, NIN was, and they were awesome.

  223. 223

    Hey, Kyle MacLachlan claims to be a direct descendent of Johann Sebastian Bach on his mother’s side. Why are tangential points in my rambling, disjointed posts beginning to coincide?

  224. 224

    I saw Bauhaus in concert not too long ago, and I wasn’t that impressed. They weren’t the main act, though, NIN was, and they were awesome.

    They still exist? I was thinking more of their 80s shit. I have no idea what they’d sound like now.

    NIN still exists?

  225. 225
    DougJ says:

    is it still okay to like Michael Jackson? How about the Jackson 5?

    Both, by all means. Though I’ll admit that hearing the song “Pretty Young Thing” does give me the creeps.

  226. 226
    ThymeZone says:

    is it still okay to like Michael Jackson?

    Sure. He comes from a great American family, With ancestors like Andrew Jackson and great ballplayers like Reggie Jackson.

    Who can forget Jackson’s blast to the light tower of old Tiger Stadium in the All Star game?

  227. 227
    ThymeZone says:

    Why are tangential points in my rambling, disjointed posts beginning to coincide?

    Like Robert Pirsig, you will soon go mad.

  228. 228
    chopper says:

    I’d take Billy Idol over Journey any day.

    blasphemer!

  229. 229
    Punchy says:

    OT–so, I’m reading this, and thinking…boy, this guy is fucked. How the hell does one get back to the US if he can’t be in a plane?

    And then, I wondered, so he’s “OK” to possibly blow up the boat, but not a plane? He can drown 1000’s of passangers, but just not burn them at 30K feet up? Is there a NO SAIL list that exists? If not, why?

    Can anyone imagine being in…say…the middle of Africa and being told that “DougJ” sounds too Arabic and thusly not allowed to fly? How the fuck to these people get home??

  230. 230
    tBone says:

    if John Ashcroft put out an album, I’d probably buy it just for the weirdness value

    Your prayers are answered – for free!

    It is the Will of God, the God of Abraham and Isaac and Miles Davis and Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart and Johann Sebastian Bach

    Skid Row rocks.

    On a possibly related note, is it still okay to like Michael Jackson? How about the Jackson 5?

    Jackson 5, definitely. Did anyone see Clerks II? It had a great dance scene featuring “ABC.” And Rosario Dawson shaking her thang(s).

  231. 231
    tBone says:

    NIN still exists?

    Exist? Yes. Still good? No.

    Speaking of NIN, or at least their first album, how come there’s no love for Prince here? Am I the only one that wore out two copies of Sign o’ the Times in high school?

  232. 232
    demimondian says:

    Exist? Yes. Still good? No.

    Ever were good? No.

  233. 233
    RSA says:

    On a possibly related note, is it still okay to like Michael Jackson?

    Sure, his books about beer are classics, though Tim F. is quite the up-and-comer.

  234. 234
    tBone says:

    Ever were good? No.

    Don’t make me unleash my pretty hate machine on you, demi.

  235. 235
    demimondian says:

    Don’t make me unleash my pretty hate machine on you, demi.

    Hemidemimondian sees your threat, and responds with his own Minor Threat:The String Quartet Tribute to Nine Inch Nails’ Pretty Hate Machine

  236. 236
    Pb says:

    Not only was that NIN concert awesome, but they played all sorts of stuff, from their oldest songs to their most recent. Now doesn’t it make you feel better?

  237. 237

    Both, by all means. Though I’ll admit that hearing the song “Pretty Young Thing” does give me the creeps.

    What about buying his albums, thereby contributing to his legal defense fund?

    Who can forget Jackson’s blast to the light tower of old Tiger Stadium in the All Star game?

    Is that the same Jackson who- allegedly- fucks little kids?

  238. 238

    Like Robert Pirsig, you will soon go mad.

    I think that already happened a while ago, actually.

    Next topic: underpants. A tasty meal, or man’s best friend? Also, hearing voices when your dog barks at you- what if the orders he gives you are contradicted by the orders you receive from your lampshade?

  239. 239

    Your prayers are answered – for free!

    Thank you, friend. I will cherish this link always. (I mean it, dude.)

    Skid Row rocks

    Did Bach link up with them after he came back as a zombie or something?

  240. 240
    Pb says:

    demi,

    I think I prefer the piano tribute, given the choice… Then again, there’s always the Devo cover of Head Like A Hole…

  241. 241
    Pb says:

    Aha, the transcript is up!

    And as far as this administration is concerned, we clearly see the problem and we’re going to continue to work to advance stable, free countries. We don’t expect every country to look like the United States, but we do want countries to accept some basic conditions for a vibrant society — human rights, human decency, the power of the people to determine the fate of their governments. And, admittedly, this is hard work because it flies in the face of previous policy, which basically says stability is more important than form of government. And as a result of that policy, anger and resentment bubbled forth with an attack, with a series of attacks, the most dramatic of which was on September the 11th.

    Invade China now or suffer another 9/11, bitches!

  242. 242

    Exist? Yes. Still good? No.

    I honestly don’t think I’ve heard them since I was 18 years old. I can’t remember if they were ever good.

    Still, Trent Reznor should be sitting on a pretty chunk of change, collecting royalties for his bit on the soundtrack to “The Crow.”

    Speaking of NIN, or at least their first album, how come there’s no love for Prince here? Am I the only one that wore out two copies of Sign o’ the Times in high school?

    My Mom loves Prince. That automatically takes him down about 10 notches in my book. I’ve heard more Prince than one would think is humanly endurable. My childhood innocence was shattered by Prince. My psyche suffered permanent damage from the song “Raspberry Beret.”

    I do not wish to speak of this again.

  243. 243

    Invade China now or suffer another 9/11, bitches

    Once we’ve brought freedom to Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Iran, and Afghanistan, it will only be natural for us to extend our string of victories on behalf of human rights and democracy in a geographic line to China, North Korea, and Burma. We may or may not bypass Pakistan, depending on how Musharraf wants to take the news of all the glorious liberty unfolding about his borders.

    Freedom isn’t free, bitches!

  244. 244
    tBone says:

    Did Bach link up with them after he came back as a zombie or something?

    That, plus multiple courses of estrogen therapy, would explain this.

  245. 245
    tBone says:

    My Mom loves Prince. That automatically takes him down about 10 notches in my book. I’ve heard more Prince than one would think is humanly endurable. My childhood innocence was shattered by Prince. My psyche suffered permanent damage from the song “Raspberry Beret.”

    You’re dead to me, Fredo.

  246. 246
    demimondian says:

    hearing voices when your dog barks at you- what if the orders he gives you are contradicted by the orders you receive from your lampshade?

    You need to make sure that you have your afdb on tight enough. That’ll take care of the lampshade, (hat, and you’re away to the races.)

  247. 247
    demimondian says:

    That automatically takes [Prince] down about 10 notches in my book.

    Hmm. WHat else does she like that you don’t? I’m thinking that I may want to investigate it.

  248. 248
    Ancient Purple says:

    I think I need to add some sanity to this music discussion and remind you all of the important contributions of the following:

    Starland Vocal Band
    Bobby Vinton
    Klatuu
    Bay City Rollers
    Jerry Reed
    Jim Stafford

    Discuss.

  249. 249
    demimondian says:

    there’s always the Devo cover of Head Like A Hole…

    That’s got nothing on the Punk ROck Orchestra.

  250. 250
    ThymeZone says:

    Discuss.

    Greatest contribution: Jerry Reed, or Homer and Jethrow?

    Compare, contrast.

    Research:

    Homer and Jethro – Song Butchers

    My own favorite:

    She Was Bitten on the Udder by an Adder

  251. 251

    That, plus multiple courses of estrogen therapy, would explain this.

    Great. Now I have to gouge my eyes out and forget the very nature of sight if I ever hope to escape that hideous trauma. Thanks, tBone.

    You’re dead to me, Fredo.

    I don’t care. After that last pic, I hope zombie Bach catches you and eats your brains.

  252. 252

    You need to make sure that you have your afdb on tight enough. That’ll take care of the lampshade, (hat, and you’re away to the races.)

    The dog races, where a variety of confusing commands from God will undoubtedly beset me.

  253. 253

    Hmm. WHat else does she like that you don’t? I’m thinking that I may want to investigate it.

    Lately, we’ve been getting along in musical inclinations. My childhood was a dark time, though.

    My Dad liked Dire Straits a lot, if that helps you out any.

  254. 254
    demimondian says:

    I don’t care. After that last pic, I hope zombie Bach catches you and eats your brains.

    I was expecting to chase the link a see a picture of the artist who produced Switched-on Bach

  255. 255
    ThymeZone says:

    My Dad liked Dire Straits a lot, if that helps you out any.

    Was he more into the Tunnel of Love, dark, hung over Knopfler, or the Twisting By the Pool, happy-rocky Knopfler?

    Personally, I like the Ticket to Heaven, tongue-in-cheek Knopfler myself.

  256. 256
    tBone says:

    Was he more into the Tunnel of Love, dark, hung over Knopfler

    I always liked the Douglas Adams quote about Tunnel of Love:

    Mark Knopfler has an extraordinary ability to make a Schecter Custom Stratocaster hoot and sing like angels on a Saturday night, exhausted from being good all week and needing a stiff beer.

  257. 257
    Punchy says:

    Was he more into the Tunnel of Love, dark, hung over Knopfler

    Why is Knopfler doing Bruce Springstein songs?

    And this:

    My Mom loves Prince. That automatically takes him down about 10 notches in my book. I’ve heard more Prince than one would think is humanly endurable

    If I put away my jock-strap and imaginary gun collection, and I’m partially intoxicated, I will admit to liking some of Prince’s songs. Not enough to play him on a jutebox in a sports bar, but enough to throw him in mix in the CD player alongside early Madonna, Megadeth, and Ice Cube…

  258. 258
    RonB says:

    Still obsessing over me Ron?

    Obsessing? I spent months away from this site. I did not come back here thinking about how I wished I could lock horns with the formidable Darrell. Look, I’m sorry I used your name to make a Mojo Nixon joke. If you listened to the song and had any sense of humor about yourself, maybe you would have chuckled. Shoulda picked Mac, he might’ve been amused. But I picked you because you above all, have NO Elvis in you. There’s nothing I can do about that.

    At the risk of having an interminable, off topic argument with you, it is not all that nutty to be skeptical about Iranian weapon ambitions. If you were interested in all sides of a discussion, you’d know this. And if they do withdraw from the NPT, it’ll be because it has no use for it, since the US and its international lapdogs don’t even want to allow it its rights as a signatory. No one has any concrete proof that they are developing weapons. Iran has a multiplicity of benign reasons for nuclear energy. Here is their stated policy.

    Let me be clear, Iran does not have to go down the road to nuclear weaponry. It’s a choice that we will make, and if they do go nuclear, it will be the international community’s failure to engage.

  259. 259
    RonB says:

    -“because of the international community’s failure to engage”.

  260. 260

    Ah…so many dead-member bands…what an eclectic mix of music….DMB and Nirvana? Where’s Big Head Todd, Martin Zellar, and Public Enemy?

    Not sure if I like Big Head Todd. But I forgot my rap and hip-hop music list. I like Snoop Dogg and Eminem, but I should work on that list a bit more.

    As for Martin Zellar. Ok, I can’t stand Neil Diamond. Zellar’s a local here in the Twin Cities, and I saw him play his Neil Diamond tribute a few years ago. I don’t recall where I was, might have been down at Bogarts in Apple Valley. If it’s the show I’m thinking of, a buddy of a friend of mine was opening for him. Anyway, wasn’t impressed. Could be because other than that America song, I don’t like Neil Diamond. :-)

    Worst live concert I’ve ever been to was Eric Johnson. Not because the guy isn’t a great guitarist, he is. The problem is all of his fans are 40-50 year old guys with pony tails. I mean what’s the point? If I wanted to see 40-50 year old guys with pony tails I could go to a Linux convention.

  261. 261

    Why is Knopfler doing Bruce Springstein songs?

    Oh yeah, I love Springsteen, Knopfler and Mellencamp.

    If I put away my jock-strap and imaginary gun collection, and I’m partially intoxicated, I will admit to liking some of Prince’s songs. Not enough to play him on a jutebox in a sports bar, but enough to throw him in mix in the CD player alongside early Madonna, Megadeth, and Ice Cube…

    Prince is another local. So I gotta give him props. Purple Rain is a must own album. :-)

    Granted I don’t own it on CD. I had it on cassette, but those got thrown out with the VHS tapes.

  262. 262
    ThymeZone says:

    I did not come back here thinking about how I wished I could lock horns with the formidable Darrell.

    Darrell, aka Senator Cornyn, aka Alfafa, King of Straw.

    Aka The Decider.

  263. 263
    Krista says:

    TOS – Neil Diamond is sort of a guilty pleasure of mine. I haven’t bought any of his music, but I do enjoy it when I happen to hear it, just because hearing it reminds me so much of my childhood.

    Was listening to Audioslave today while cleaning. Chris Cornell is always enjoyable. Then, for my break, I laid on the couch, closed my eyes, and let “Moonlight Sonata” wash over me.

  264. 264
    Ancient Purple says:

    Neil Diamond is sort of a guilty pleasure of mine.

    How will you ever pay for your crimes, Krista?

  265. 265
    Ancient Purple says:

    Well, I guess we get to see what Tom DeLay is made of:

    Scalia refuses to remove Delay’s name from Texas ballot.

    Link.

  266. 266
    Krista says:

    AP – My own crimes are inconsequential. I’m already guilty by national association because of Celine Dion.

  267. 267
    ThymeZone says:

    TOS – Neil Diamond is sort of a guilty pleasure of mine.

    I once got thrown out of a bar for heckling a Neil Diamond imitator who was appearing there.

    “Cracklin Rosie, my ass!” I think was heard as they hauled me out the door. I was very drunk, though. I don’t really remember all of it.

  268. 268
    ThymeZone says:

    I’m already guilty by national association because of Celine Dion.

    She’s odd. But she can finish a song with a two-octave pitch change and make a key change at the same time and hit the note.

    How many people can do that? One, that I’ve ever heard.

  269. 269
    Krista says:

    ThymeZone- oh, she has talent. I just wish she hadn’t spent it on such schmaltz.

  270. 270

    Was he more into the Tunnel of Love, dark, hung over Knopfler, or the Twisting By the Pool, happy-rocky Knopfler?

    He liked Tunnel of Love, I think. The albums I specifically remember are “Brothers in Arms” and whichever one has that “Money for Nothing” song on it.

    Good stuff, that.

  271. 271

    If I put away my jock-strap and imaginary gun collection, and I’m partially intoxicated, I will admit to liking some of Prince’s songs. Not enough to play him on a jutebox in a sports bar, but enough to throw him in mix in the CD player alongside early Madonna, Megadeth, and Ice Cube…

    He belongs next to Madonna, so it’s okay. (Can I say that without overly insulting Madonna, though? I liked a couple of her songs.)

    Megadeth’s okay, Ice Cube was better off sticking with MC Ren and EZ-muthafuckin’ E. Et al.

  272. 272

    Darrell, aka Senator Cornyn, aka Alfafa, King of Straw.

    Aka The Decider.

    Well, he IS a U.S. Senator. It’s little wonder that he feels entitled to lord it over the rest of us on substantive issues of foreign policy. After all, he undoubtedly has access to a great deal of classified information that would knock your lefty socks off.

  273. 273

    AP – My own crimes are inconsequential. I’m already guilty by national association because of Celine Dion.

    We should invade Canada just because of that one.

  274. 274
    Tulkinghorn says:

    Dion was a child prodigy when she sung in French… nice stuff. Everything since 1988 has been schlock.

  275. 275
    Krista says:

    Funny how it’s all come full circle — we started off with emergency contraception, and have wound up with the natural contraceptive that is Celine Dion’s music.

  276. 276
    DougJ says:

    I’ve grown to sort of like Mark Knopfler — my local station plays a lot of his more obscure stuff including duets with Emmy Lou Harris. He’s not Richard Thompson (neither is Eric Clapton), but he’s not that bad either.

  277. 277
    ThymeZone says:

    Good stuff, that.

    Yeah, it’s a big range. You’ve got “The Man’s Too Strong” at one end of the scale … dark, angry. And at the other end, “Walk of Life” and “Why Worry.”

    And of course, Money for Nothing is just good clean fun.

    I think TheSteak got the essential part right. All those songs were just vehicles for Knopfler to show off his guitar prowess. Which was fine with me.

    To wrap this one up … #351 on Rolling Stone’s Greatest Rock Albums list, and 25 million copies sold. According to Wikipedia.

  278. 278

    I’ve grown to sort of like Mark Knopfler—my local station plays a lot of his more obscure stuff including duets with Emmy Lou Harris. He’s not Richard Thompson (neither is Eric Clapton), but he’s not that bad either.

    My Dad is crazy about him. I mean that, he’s crazy about the subject. He thinks Mark Knopfler is the greatest guitarist ever. He thinks Jimmy Hendrix was a great “noisemaker”, not a great guitarist. Certainly not as great as Mark Knopfler.

    I mean, I like Dire Straits, too, but this is where my father and I part ways.

  279. 279

    To wrap this one up … #351 on Rolling Stone’s Greatest Rock Albums list, and 25 million copies sold. According to Wikipedia.

    Did you ever visit allmusic.com? They have pretty comprehensive lists, but on the other hand a lot of their album ratings are highly, highly suspect. Check it out. It’s a useful reference tool, right up there with imdb.com for movies.

  280. 280
    Mac Buckets says:

    The Other Steve Says:

    I don’t much care for Elvis Costello.

    Whew! For a second there, I thought you might break your 100% record of being wrong! Thankfully, I see the heavens are still in their place.

    I kid because I love. Seriously, de gustibus non est disputandum.

  281. 281
    DougJ says:

    GOP4Me — I don’t think Knopfler comes close to Richard Thompson as a guitarist. Bear in mind, I know nothing about guitar playing, but I suspect Mark Knopfler would say he was poor man’s Richard Thompson.

    The thing with Mark Knopfler is that I think his songs are quite good — humane, literate, clever. That Dire Straights crap you hear on the radio is crappy, but songs like Sonny Liston’s Blues and Les Boys are very good.

  282. 282
    DougJ says:

    Mac, glad you’re back. We’ve had a pretty good Elvis discussion upthread.

  283. 283
    DougJ says:

    I will admit to liking some of Prince’s songs.

    Admit? What kind of person doesn’t love Prince?

  284. 284
    DougJ says:

    Speaking of NIN, or at least their first album, how come there’s no love for Prince here? Am I the only one that wore out two copies of Sign o’ the Times in high school?

    I loves me some Prince. You know, I feel like a lot of the people here, with all due respect, are too entranced by the angry white boy stuff, the Nine Inch Nails, and so on.

  285. 285

    GOP4Me—I don’t think Knopfler comes close to Richard Thompson as a guitarist. Bear in mind, I know nothing about guitar playing, but I suspect Mark Knopfler would say he was poor man’s Richard Thompson.

    I don’t know this Richard Thompson fellow. I’ll have to check him out. Who’s he with, again?

    The thing with Mark Knopfler is that I think his songs are quite good—humane, literate, clever. That Dire Straights crap you hear on the radio is crappy, but songs like Sonny Liston’s Blues and Les Boys are very good

    .

    Yeah, it’s good stuff to drink a beer to. Or whatever floats your boat, you know.

    Mac, glad you’re back. We’ve had a pretty good Elvis discussion upthread.

    Where do people stand on Elvis Presley? My older siblings and peers instilled some low-grade distaste for him in me at a young age, but I started listening to him last year and I found that some of his songs were actually quite good. Is this a sentiment which it is acceptable to share in a public forum, or is this the sort of thing that one must closet deeply inside one’s soul, exposing only at the pinnacle of drunkenness or a similarly maudlin pathos?

  286. 286
    SeesThroughIt says:

    I like Snoop Dogg and Eminem, but I should work on that list a bit more.

    Yes, please! I’m guessing I’m the resident Insufferable Rap Nerd here, so I do implore you to expand your horizons. In particular, start looking at albums from 1987-1992.

  287. 287

    Admit? What kind of person doesn’t love Prince?

    A generation of 80s youngsters whose childhoods were warped by overexposure to him, that’s who. (Okay, maybe I’m the only person in that category. But does that lessen my individual suffering?)

  288. 288
    ThymeZone says:

    I kid because I love

    Like Darrell, I can’t approve of man love.

  289. 289
    Punchy says:

    As for Martin Zellar. Ok, I can’t stand Neil Diamond. Zellar’s a local here in the Twin Cities, and I saw him play his Neil Diamond tribute a few years ago. I don’t recall where I was, might have been down at Bogarts in Apple Valley. If it’s the show I’m thinking of, a buddy of a friend of mine was opening for him. Anyway, wasn’t impressed.

    Dagger…entered…heart…and then twisted…ouch. I think this guy is tits. Of course, part of it was that I loved the Geardaddies, his first band. Yes, he’s a legend up there in the Twin Cities (what I call The Metropoli). You oughta see him play other than his Diamond schtik…I’d personally pay hundreds to see him in concert; then again, he’s one of my all-time favs…

  290. 290
    Mac Buckets says:

    Mac, glad you’re back. We’ve had a pretty good Elvis discussion upthread.

    Yeah, long day today. I saw upthread, and I apologize to JC for the huge jack hereupon. Your Nick Hornsby story made me laugh like a retard — been there, done that.

    Of course, to be Totally Annoying Hipster, you can only quote Elvis if it’s from a non-album B-side — or the Devil will drag you under by the sharp tailfin of your checkered cab.

    Should [Bono] be condemned for defiling the tradition of Shane MacGowan

    …by practicing proper dental hygiene? By never being so drunk he no-showed once when I had tickets?

    How dare Bono ponce around, showing up to play when scheduled, with those healthy chicklets!

    Don’t get me started on the genius that was/is Shane (I hear he’s doing well, the Pogues are touring the West Coast this fall — I’ll catch them in Vegas in October — and Shane’s remembering most of the lyrics!).

    And just to show I’m not jacking the Elvis thread, too, there’s an Obvious Shane/Elvis Tie-in: Elvis married the Pogues bassist, and produced Rum Sodomy and the Lash. Non-Obvious Shane/Elvis Tie-in: EC’s session backing band for his first record later became Huey Lewis’s “the News” — and Shane once allegedly picked a drunken fight with Huey Lewis at a bar in London and then got his ass kicked by members of the News.

  291. 291
    Mac Buckets says:

    I’m guessing I’m the resident Insufferable Rap Nerd here, so I do implore you to expand your horizons. In particular, start looking at albums from 1987-1992.

    So that would be NWA, PE, De La Soul — we’ve already had our Tribe Called Quest thread a couple months ago here. What I still listen to most from that era is a little embarrassing, but I’ll say it: Sir Mix-a-Lot’s Seminar and Mack Daddy were absolute genius.

  292. 292
    Punchy says:

    Don’t even start me on rap….Geto Boys, Body Count, Ice-T, Del the Funky Homosapien….

  293. 293
    DougJ says:

    Non-Obvious Shane/Elvis Tie-in: EC’s session backing band for his first record later became Huey Lewis’s “the News”—and Shane once allegedly picked a drunken fight with Huey Lewis at a bar in London and then got his ass kicked by members of the News.

    Good stuff, Mac! I think Huey Lewsi plays harmonica on a Nick Lowe track that may have some EC connection as well. Can’t remember what it is.

  294. 294
    DougJ says:

    Who’s he with, again?

    Was with his wife, Linda. Now solo. I think the ablums with Linda may be slightly better.

  295. 295
    DougJ says:

    Bono may show up on time, but has he ever written anything as inspring as

    And in the Euston Tavern you screamed it was your shout
    But they wouldn’t give you service so you kicked the windows out
    They took you out into the street and kicked you in the brains
    So you walked back in through a bolted door and did it all again

  296. 296
    SeesThroughIt says:

    What I still listen to most from that era is a little embarrassing, but I’ll say it: Sir Mix-a-Lot’s Seminar and Mack Daddy were absolute genius.

    Man, Mix-A-Lot’s a freakin’ legend. Most people only know him from “Baby Got Back,” but you have to go back to the classic “Posse on Broadway,” plus other cuts like “Square Dance Rap,” “Beepers,” “My Hooptie,” and “Iron Man.”

    Also, if you do not own Main Source’s Breaking Atoms stop reading this thread and go get it right now. Seriously. We’ll wait.

    Other mandatory listening:

    BDP
    Mantronix
    EPMD
    King Sun
    Poor Righteous Teachers
    Special Ed
    X-Clan
    All the old Juice Crew stuff (Big Daddy Kane, Kool G Rap, Roxanne Shante, Masta Ace, Craig G)
    MC Lyte
    Low Profile

    I could go on for days and days and days….

  297. 297
    tBone says:

    Don’t get me started on the genius that was/is Shane (I hear he’s doing well, the Pogues are touring the West Coast this fall—I’ll catch them in Vegas in October—and Shane’s remembering most of the lyrics!).

    I read a biography on Steve Earle a little while back that talked briefly about the making of “Johnny Come Lately” off Copperhead Road. He recorded it in London with the Pogues, shortly after their first big single. I can’t even imagine the amount of drugs that must have been consumed that week.

  298. 298
    Mac Buckets says:

    Bono may show up on time, but has he ever written anything as inspring as

    I’m not a big U2 guy, but I trust that they inspire people — just not to drink whiskey, like Shane does.

    I mean, look at “Body of an American” or “Gartloney Rats” (try NOT to get drunk listening to that song — it’s freaking impossible!) or “Boat Train” or, dude, “Sally Maclennane.” The Pogues have caused more damage to my liver than anyone I can conveniently blame, and thank God for them!

  299. 299
    tBone says:

    I loves me some Prince. You know, I feel like a lot of the people here, with all due respect, are too entranced by the angry white boy stuff, the Nine Inch Nails, and so on.

    I’ve always loved Prince, but I like a lot of the angry white boy stuff too. If anyone ever steals my iPod I’m going to have to change my name and leave the country for fear that they’ll blackmail me with the contents. I would never publically admit to liking at least half of the bands/songs on there.

  300. 300
    tBone says:

    Where do people stand on Elvis Presley? My older siblings and peers instilled some low-grade distaste for him in me at a young age, but I started listening to him last year and I found that some of his songs were actually quite good.

    Meant to reply to this earlier, but – yeah. The signal-to-noise ratio got pretty bad in his latter years, but there’s a reason he’s called the King, baby. Although I’ll admit that “In the Ghetto” makes me want to shove ballpoint pens through my eardrums.

  301. 301
    chopper says:

    Don’t get me started on the genius that was/is Shane (I hear he’s doing well, the Pogues are touring the West Coast this fall—I’ll catch them in Vegas in October—and Shane’s remembering most of the lyrics!).

    saw them this year on their east coast leg of the tour. seeing the pogues play in new york on st patricks day was wicked awesome. shane was in better shape than i’ve seen him in a decade.

  302. 302
    DougJ says:

    Mac, I almost hate to bring this up, but when I read your comments, I can’t believe you’re a Bush supporter.

    What sentiments could be further from those of the Bush White House than “And the Band Played Waltzing Mathilda” (not a Pogues original, I know) or “Thousands Are Sailing” (I know Shane didn’t write that one)?

  303. 303
    Mac Buckets says:

    shane was in better shape than i’ve seen him in a decade.

    Glad to hear it. I can only imagine the awesomeness of NYC on St. Pat’s (I’m sure I’d have lost it, and I’m as German as a bust of Boris Becker made of sauerkraut and melted Nazi gold). The first time I saw them still ranks as one of the best 5 shows I’ve ever seen. The second time Shane was too drunk to sing. I’m hoping for the best in Vegas (although the fact that it’s in the debauchery capital of America is unnerving).

  304. 304
    Krista says:

    I mean, look at “Body of an American” or “Gartloney Rats” (try NOT to get drunk listening to that song—it’s freaking impossible!) or “Boat Train” or, dude, “Sally Maclennane.” The Pogues have caused more damage to my liver than anyone I can conveniently blame, and thank God for them!

    Fairytale of New York is one of my all-time favourites.

  305. 305
    Krista says:

    …I’m as German as a bust of Boris Becker made of sauerkraut and melted Nazi gold).

    Nicely put! (Golf clap)

  306. 306
    Mac Buckets says:

    What sentiments could be further from those of the Bush White House than “And the Band Played Waltzing Mathilda” or “Thousands Are Sailing”

    “Mathilda” is a sad story of a guy who loses use of his legs at Gallipoli and wonders what it was all for. Well, I think every thinking person since 1915 has wondered what the hell the debacle at Gallipoli was all about. I don’t see it as a pacifist song, just as a sad song about the horrors of war that could’ve been written after any number of disastrous battles in any number of wars that most everyone supported.

    Not sure what you see in “Thousands” that is philosophically anti-Bush. To me, that’s a song about the Irish flight to America (like “Sally Maclennane” — or the Proclaimer’s “Letter from America” from a Scottish perspective) by Irishmen who are ironically so eager to profess their love for the land that they left.

    But I get your point. I love Billy Bragg and EC and lefty bands of all stripes (although I did noticed that the more political the Beasties got, the more they tended to suck — I chalk it up to coincidence). It’s not that I don’t listen to the lyrics, as someone above snarkily suggested — it’s just that I can disagree with the sentiment of political songs (I mean, I’m just really not sure that Michael Stipe and Wayne Coyne and Mike Diamond are brilliant historical/political minds, you know?), but appreciate the passion that creates good music.

    Would Billy Bragg’s music have been as immediate and powerful had he not been an ardent Communist? Do you have to be a Communist to like Billy Bragg? Of course not.

    Also, I counted one time, and Bragg — that Red Bastard from Blighty — put out like six love songs to every political song. (Gratuitous great lyric drop from “A Lover Sings”:)

    It doesn’t matter the colour of the car
    But what goes on beneath the bonnet
    Is there a flag that flies above your heart
    And is my name writ there upon it?

    Can you tell EC’s politics by 95% of his songs? No, they’re love songs, or songs about whatever, and then he’ll drop “Tramp the Dirt Down,” a song which only succeeds because his hate for Thatcher was that palpable. So when we talk about most “political” bands, we’re talking about one song every record or three.

  307. 307
    lard lad says:

    Ok, I can’t stand Neil Diamond.

    Actually, Neil Diamond’s early recordings (all on the Bang label) are surprisingly good, snappy pop crammed with hooks. For some reason, though, the only place you can find Bang tracks are on his box set. (Don’t buy the deceptive Classics: The Early Years… despite the youthful photo on the cover, these are in fact later remakes that wallow deep in the Cesspool of Suck.) Neil started thinking of himself as a Serious Artist around 1970 or so… and it ruined him, man and music.

    I don’t know this Richard Thompson fellow. I’ll have to check him out. Who’s he with, again?

    Richard was the lead guitar for Fairport Convention for their first four studio albums (their four best, incidentally… try Unhalfbricking first). They were the greatest British folk-rock band ever. Richard has cut more than a few gems of his own, the best of which are accompanied by his now ex-wife Linda. I Want to See the Bright Lights Tonight, Pour Down Like Silver and Shoot out the Lights are all stone classics.

    I think Huey Lewsi plays harmonica on a Nick Lowe track that may have some EC connection as well. Can’t remember what it is.

    If memory serves, that track is “Born Fighter,” from Nick’s Labour of Lust album, now criminally unavailable on CD. You can find that song on his excellent Basher compilation, though…

    Hey, I do this shit for a living!

  308. 308
    Mac Buckets says:

    Nicely put! (Golf clap)

    Thanks, K. Because of your kind props, I won’t report you to the RIAA for sending “Woman” to DJ. You filthy sharer , you! I would never do that, and I’m not just saying that because the RIAA Gestapo kind and just and honorable agents might be lurking.

  309. 309
    DougJ says:

    Can you tell EC’s politics by 95% of his songs?

    I can, but maybe not everyone could. I could also tell that he was ethnically Irish (even before I heard him proclaim that he motivated only by “guilt and revenge” or knew his real name was Declan McManus).

  310. 310
    demimondian says:

    “Mathilda” is a sad story of a guy who loses use of his legs at Gallipoli and wonders what it was all for. Well, I think every thinking person since 1915 has wondered what the hell the debacle at Gallipoli was all about. I don’t see it as a pacifist song, just as a sad song about the horrors of war that could’ve been written after any number of disastrous battles in any number of wars that most everyone supported.

    For what it’s worth, I got to see Eric Bogle play it live in a tiny coffee house in Madison, about a year before he died. I understand your reading, and personally find it very reasonable, but Bogle himself, a Austalian folkie singer-songwriter, did mean it as a broad anti-war anthem.

  311. 311
    Punchy says:

    Man, Mix-A-Lot’s a freakin’ legend. Most people only know him from “Baby Got Back,” but you have to go back to the classic “Posse on Broadway,” plus other cuts like “Square Dance Rap,” “Beepers,” “My Hooptie,” and “Iron Man.”

    You completely left out his best album, Chief Boot Knocka. Just a gem. Heady off the success of Baby Got Back, he pulls rhymes out of his ass. Just a classic.

    And this, Kris:

    Fairytale of New York is one of my all-time favourites.

    K…K….Kris…jettison the “u”. It’s unseemly. Back-hair ugly. It’s SO ghetto. After all, you’re either with correct spelling, or you spell like the terrorists….

  312. 312
    Pb says:

    What the holy hell are we doing in Iraq.

  313. 313
    DougJ says:

    Well, I think every thinking person since 1915 has wondered what the hell the debacle at Gallipoli was all about.

    Not Darrell. He thinks WWI worked really well.

    Oh, you said thinking person. Never mind.

  314. 314
    Tom in Texas says:

    I’d also toss in these bands onto the “don’t suck/aren’t whiny” pile: Wolf Parade, TV on the Radio, The Black Keys, Animal Collective (mindblowing stuff, that), The New Pornographers, Giant Drag, Sleater-Kinney (RIP), and The Fiery Furnaces (especially their first two albums).

    Your name is Fruitbat, yet you fail to mention the Fruit Bats in your post? I agree with all your choices (that I’ve heard), by the way, but I would add in addition to your namesake the Arcade Fire and Ambulance Ltd., and since I’m into that stuff, Explosions in the Sky/Godspeed.

  315. 315
    Punchy says:

    What the holy hell are we doing in Iraq.

    Democracy is messy.

  316. 316
    Krista says:

    Thanks, K. Because of your kind props, I won’t report you to the RIAA for sending “Woman” to DJ. You filthy sharer , you!

    Feh…I’d like to see one of them make $10 CAD an hour, buying a $20 (plus 14% sales tax) CD for the sake of one song they heard on the radio that they liked. I’m all about supporting artists, particularly new ones, but it burns my ass to hear Madonna who is as rich as hell, bitching and moaning because I won’t take food out of my own mouth in order to buy her CD, just because I want to add “Sorry” to my playlist for when I go running.

    Punchy – I’m Canadian. I use a superfluous “u” in my spelling of words like favour, labour, and rumour. Just enjoy the soupçon of difference that it adds to the comments section.

  317. 317
    Punchy says:

    Punchy – I’m Canadian. I use a superfluous “u” in my spelling of words like favour, labour, and rumour. Just enjoy the soupçon of difference that it adds to the comments section.

    Ffffine…(stomps off in exaggerated frustration)

  318. 318
    Jim Allen says:

    Ffffine…(stomps off in exaggerated frustration)

    You think that’s going to bother someone who lives in the same country as Bamfffff?

  319. 319
    VidaLoca says:

    Jim,

    You think that’s going to bother someone who lives in the same country as Bamfffff?

    She might be bothered that you didn’t spell it “Banfffff”….

  320. 320
    Jim Allen says:

    She might be bothered that you didn’t spell it “Banfffff”..

    Crap.

    Thamks.

  321. 321
    Krista says:

    She might be bothered that you didn’t spell it “Banfffff”..

    She really couldn’t care less, either way. :)

  322. 322
    ImJohnGalt says:

    Apathy. Now there’s a good Canadian trait right there.

  323. 323
    Jim Allen says:

    Apathy. Now there’s a good Canadian trait right there.

    Nah, I don’t think it’s apathy as much as the ability to prioritize.

  324. 324
    Krista says:

    It’s actually an ability to not get worked up over petty crap — I learned it at a very early age, after seeing various loved ones just about give themselves ulcers over things that wound up not mattering a whit a month later.

  325. 325
    scs says:

    is the outrageous and outlandish lies that were told during the Trri Schiavo fiasco

    Hmmm. Which lies were those, specifically John? Oh you must mean the exaggerations, otherwise known as lies, told by the now dead activist Dr. Ronald Cranford that all of Terri’s cortex was gone and that her EEG’s showed no activity, among other general outdated information he plied the media with about PVS in general.

    Another lie Cranford told- that having PVS meant Terri would feel no pain as she starved to death- when we have known since 2001 that a not insignificant percentage of patients classified as PVS actually are found upon brain scans to register pain (hence making them actually minimally conscious). (google university research articles or look up my past posts for links) Since Michael refused to give Terri a PET scan before her death- it was anybody’s guess whether Terri would feel pain upon her dehydration. We only got a better picture upon her autospy. Is this how we want to conduct these types of managed deaths, and shouldn’t we go the extra mile with all our latest technology to make sure someone does not feel unneccesary pain before they die?

    Honestly John, you have taken me on several times with your Terri diatribe but you have never once addressed my points about the recent medical knowledge on PVS and why it is so important to test people with the latest tech before we let them die. You know I think you and TimF are made for each other, as both of you seem adept at disappearing when relevant issues are brought up that contradict your theses.

  326. 326
    scs says:

    FYI, I see my comment is awaiting moderation. That is probably because I am posting from my laptop, as my desktop got fried in a storm last weekend. But don’t worry, I am me and not DougJ

  327. 327
    Fruitbat says:

    Your name is Fruitbat, yet you fail to mention the Fruit Bats in your post? I agree with all your choices (that I’ve heard), by the way, but I would add in addition to your namesake the Arcade Fire and Ambulance Ltd., and since I’m into that stuff, Explosions in the Sky/Godspeed.

    For some reason, the music of Fruit Bats always managed to whiz through my mind without gaining a foothold. The name preceded my knowledge of the band, by the way.

    But speaking of Bats, if we’re gonna go way back, The Judy Bats did have something to do with my formative music-loving years. Before they got weird and started covering The Bee Gees. Yeah. I’m guessing nobody knows what the hell I’m talking about now.

    I loved the Arcade Fire’s first effort, but I fear their second album will be a huge let-down. Just how things tend to go these days. GY!BE and that whole extended family are a bit beyond my radar, but I do enjoy a listen to Do Make Say Think from time to time.

  328. 328

    […] It isn’t just a bad apple, as the whole barrel has gone bad. NASA, the FDA, Justice, FEMA, the Department of the Interior- hell, do I even need to list them all? I am terrified to think what we will learn has been done with the IRS, and God only knows what is going on at Homeland Security. The hacks and the partisans and the phonies and the frauds are in charge, they are deeply entrenched, and it is going to take a bunker buster to root ‘em out. […]

Trackbacks & Pingbacks

  1. […] It isn’t just a bad apple, as the whole barrel has gone bad. NASA, the FDA, Justice, FEMA, the Department of the Interior- hell, do I even need to list them all? I am terrified to think what we will learn has been done with the IRS, and God only knows what is going on at Homeland Security. The hacks and the partisans and the phonies and the frauds are in charge, they are deeply entrenched, and it is going to take a bunker buster to root ‘em out. […]

Comments are closed.