Hearts and Minds

This is the kind of news report that makes you just want to turn off the television for the next few days and pretend you never supported the invasion of Iraq:

military investigation into the deaths of two dozen Iraqis last November is expected to find that a small number of marines in western Iraq carried out extensive, unprovoked killings of civilians, Congressional, military and Pentagon officials said Thursday.

Two lawyers involved in discussions about individual marines’ defenses said they thought the investigation could result in charges of murder, a capital offense. That possibility and the emerging details of the killings have raised fears that the incident could be the gravest case involving misconduct by American ground forces in Iraq.

A couple of thoughts:

1.) I intentionally stayed out of the ‘Jack Murtha hates America’ chorus last week, because while I disagree with Murtha on a number of things, the simple fact of the matter is that he does indeed have well-placed sources, and was in a position to know (not to mention it is entirely possible to be wrong about something without being a pinko-communist atheistic flag-burning gay-loving America hater, something a significant portion of my side of the political spectrum can not or will not fathom). Whether or not it was appropriate for him to leak that information or if he was asked to intentionally leak it to soften the blow of the official report is something we can all speculate about.

2.) Jessie MacBeth is still a lying, psychotic douchebag.

3.) It should be pointed out that if you have 100,000 people, a certain number of them are going to turn out to be lawless murderers. Even with Marines.

Add to that the stress of combat, the stress of the asymmetrical warfare and daily terrorism in Iraq, the frustration caused by culture shock and language barriers, and the fact that this report seems to suggest a squad leader was the ring leader, this is not surprising. It is yet another stain on America’s honor, and it makes me sick to my stomach. I hope those, if found guilty, spend the rest of their lives in a military prison.

More here from der Kommissar.

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251 replies
  1. 1
    Anderson says:

    Like the terrible killings at Tal Afar, this is the kind of thing that inevitably happens during any war, particularly during an occupation.

    That’s one big reason why you DON’T GO TO WAR UNLESS IT’S ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY.

    In other news, George W. Bush admits to “mistakes” … he shouldn’t have made that “bring it on” remark. How fucking mature of him. Whatever it takes to sleep at night, you son of a bitch.

  2. 2
    akaoni says:

    Jessie MacBeth?!?! Not you too John…what a joke.

  3. 3
    D. Mason says:

    I think they should be subjected to the Iraqi justice system. If found guilty they can rot in a hole under the hot desert sun for the remainder of their short pathetic lives.

  4. 4
    SomeCallMeTim says:

    It should be pointed out that if you have 100,000 people, a certain number of them are going to turn out to be lawless murderers. Even with Marines.

    I think most people on my side get that, John. And I think we’ve largely demonstrated that for about three years and change, now.

    To the extent there are worries, they center around the reasons for which people get promoted when the civilian leadership is corrupt, and the effect of that relative corruption of the military leadership on the underlying troops.

  5. 5
    Punchy says:

    Add to that the stress of combat, the stress of the asymmetrical warfare and daily terrorism in Iraq, the frustration caused by culture shock and language barriers,

    I’m sorry, but no amount of stress can explain how American soliders went into houses, put guns up against childrens’ heads, and blew them away. Multiple times. It’s beyond comprehension how any human being can intentionally and repeatedly slaughter young children, then have the gov’t attempt a cover up (“roadside bomb!”).

    These guys are monsters. Fry these fuckers.

  6. 6
    Slide. says:

    but there are those that object to the term “occupation” when discussing what we are doing in Iraq. They much prefer the term “liberation”. I wonder if even the most ardent Bush supporter could believe that rubbish anymore, other than MacBuckets of course. He is still a true believer.

  7. 7
    Pooh says:

    Punchy, you’re making a mistake more common to the right – conflating ‘understanding’ with ‘acceptance’ or ‘endorsement’ or ‘tacit approval’. There is no question, none, that these are terrible, terrible acts, but as Anderson said, war is a terrible terrible thing.

  8. 8
    Anderson says:

    I was wondering when this story first came out:

    When’s the last time an American soldier was executed for unlawfully killing enemy/occupied civilians?

    Ever?

  9. 9

    The one that’s interesting to me. If you go over and read the righty blogs, they’re all comparing this to massacres which happened in WWII.

    There’s one small difference.

    In WWII we were fighting to annihilate the Nazis.

    In Iraq, we’re supposedly liberating them.

    As the liberation angle dies, so does our moral authority.

  10. 10

    I’m sorry, but no amount of stress can explain how American soliders went into houses, put guns up against childrens’ heads, and blew them away. Multiple times. It’s beyond comprehension how any human being can intentionally and repeatedly slaughter young children, then have the gov’t attempt a cover up (“roadside bomb!”).

    Aye, good point. combat stress is that scene in the movie Big Red One, where Luke Skywalker unloads his weapon into the Nazi who is hiding in the oven after the nazi’s gun jammed. And then reloads and fires some more.

  11. 11
    demimondian says:

    I’m sorry, but combat stress can indeed *explain* the soldier’s behavior; what it can’t do is *excuse* it. If, however, they have been correclty accused, then they should be executed. (No, I don’t oppose the death penalty. Yes, I’m a soft-hearted lefty. The question is, what punishment is sufficient to demonstrate our collective revulsion at the cold-blooded murder of a child under our collective care.)

  12. 12
    ppGaz says:

    Well written post, John.

    I agree with Murtha that the incident tells us something about the stress these people are under, and also I would say that the more openly and diligently the Marines get to the bottom of it and deal with it, the better for the Corps and for us. And for the war effort, no matter where one stands on it.

    I also think it’s rather obvious that the Marines used Murtha, with his cooperation, to ease this story out into public view, and I think he did a fine job with it. He loves the Marine Corps and will not do anything to injure the fighting forces.

  13. 13
    ppGaz says:

    If, however, they have been correclty accused, then they should be executed.

    Proof that crazy shit can come from either side of the aisle around here.

    Executed? Can we have an investigation and a courts martial first?

    Jesus.

  14. 14
    Anderson says:

    If, however, they have been correctly accused, then they should be executed.

    Agreed, though I have to remind myself that an insanity defense isn’t out of the question.

    But again, when’s the last time we actually executed a soldier for killing civilians in an occupied country?

  15. 15
    Ancient Purple says:

    I am simply chomping at the bit to get Darrell’s take on this. You can place your bets early. Here are the odds:

    “This is a lie.” – 1:1

    “I need more proof than that.” – 3:2

    “Critics of these Marines are traitors.” – 2:1

    “Clinton did it too!” – 10:1

    “I was wrong and Murtha was right. I apologize.” – 4,000,000,000:1

  16. 16
    Brian says:

    small number of marines

    That’s right, “small number of Marines”. Marines who will be tried and convicted, if things shake out against them.

    Therefore, the whole war’s a sham? The entire Marine establishment is tarnished? America has a stain on its honor?

    I hope you have a brown bag to hyperventilate into. Sorry it’s not the perfect war, John.

  17. 17
    ppGaz says:

    If, however, they have been correctly accused, then they should be executed.

    Agreed

    So, our periodic reminder of why the right thinks people on the left are crazy. This is one of those days when I’m embarassed to be on the left here.

  18. 18
    Andrew says:

    Executed? Can we have an investigation and a courts martial first?

    Jesus.

    I think you’ve overlooked the ‘correctly’ part, which obviously implies that investigation and courts martial have taken place.

    However, life imprisonment is probably a sufficient penalty, even in the case of cold blooded killing of civilians on the battlefield. If we consider the mental state of people in civil society as a mitigating sentencing consideration, I think such consideration is also useful here.

  19. 19
    RSA says:

    What happened to the “a few bad apples” explanation? Odds-on favorite, in my opinion.

  20. 20
    ppGaz says:

    I think you’ve overlooked the ‘correctly’ part

    No, I haven’t overlooked it. Your disclaimer is not convincing.

  21. 21
    kdaug says:

    Interesting point, demimondian, and an angle I hadn’t thought about before – as occupiers of Iraq, we are the custodians of the Iraqi people. Since they’re, as you said, under our collective care – all of them – we are, in effect, their legal guardians. We have a moral responsibility to _protect_ them.

    Doesn’t seem to square very well with the “us vs.them”, “Iraqi terrorist” meme. In fact, doesn’t seem like a military mission at all…

  22. 22
    Pooh says:

    Sorry it’s not the perfect war, John

    Who knew that goal posts could run so fast?

  23. 23

    Here is an article about UCMJ and executing soldiers.

    After serving in the military, you can see how something like this can happen, but there are no excuses. This is as bad an incident as Abu G. If this is true, they deserve to fry. Into the breech once again my freinds..

  24. 24
    demimondian says:

    No, I haven’t overlooked it. Your disclaimer is not convincing.

    Seeing as how I made the original post, I point out two things: first, yes, I assume the rule of law is implicit in American life, and, second, even if I didn’t, I said “should” in the grand “justice demands it” thing.

  25. 25
    ppGaz says:

    However, life imprisonment is probably a sufficient penalty

    I honestly can’t believe that anyone is talking such trash before we know all the facts and before the participants have had an opportuity to present a defense.

    Do you folks on the left ever consider the possibility that this kind of knee-jerk response is exactly why the right thinks the left can’t be trusted with national defense?

  26. 26
    Brian says:

    If anything, we should be putting more military in charge of things, like our schools. Better results from that than taking instruction from panty-waisted, cut-and-run liberals.

  27. 27
    ppGaz says:

    In fact, doesn’t seem like a military mission at all…

    An excellent point. A woman whose husband is in Iraq was quoted yesterday (CNN? I was listening to satellite radio in the car and channel surfing …) …

    She basically said, I thought my husband was sent over there to fight for America. But now he seems to be a policeman in Iraq, fighting for Iraq. Why don’t the Iraqis fight for Iraq?

  28. 28
    Andrew says:

    I honestly can’t believe that anyone is talking such trash before we know all the facts and before the participants have had an opportuity to present a defense.

    Well, perhaps it’s unfortunate that we have to lower our discourse to the level of 6 year olds so as not to offend “the right,” but I see no problem in discussing the possible outcomes.

    If they want to take my opinion about a hypothetical, but not unreasonable, scenario as proof that “the left” is incapable of securing the country, in the face of 9/11 and Katrina, well, this is more ammunition in the “they are idiots” magazine.

  29. 29
    demimondian says:

    In fact, doesn’t seem like a military mission at all…

    That’s because it isn’t.

    Occupation is a civilian mission performed under near-war conditions. Conquest is a military mission. The fundamental strategic error of the Bush-Blair War lies in failing to understand that distinction.

  30. 30
    ppGaz says:

    Well, perhaps it’s unfortunate that we have to lower our discourse to the level of 6 year olds so as not to offend “the right,” but I see no problem in discussing the possible outcomes.

    Exactly, you see no problem. That’s the problem.

    What would it cost you to defer shooting your mouth off until more facts are known?

    It’s a rhetorical question and the only correct answer is “absolutely nothing.”

  31. 31
    p.lukasiak says:

    3.) It should be pointed out that if you have 100,000 people, a certain number of them are going to turn out to be lawless murderers. Even with Marines.

    John, this is bullshit. This wasn’t one unbalanced guy going batshit, it was an organized unit of the US marine corps going around slaughtering civilians with impunity.

    …..and it happened six months ago, and was covered up since then — unless the entire Marine Corps is so corrupt that everyone who knew what because they were there had happened helped to cover it up.

    ****************

    I’m not in favor of executing these guys…. what I am in favor of is placing them under the jurisdiction of the Hague, and letting the international community try them for crimes against humanity. The US needs to demonstrates that it understands and respects international standards of conduct in war, and only by allowing the international community to pass judgement on these soldiers can that be achieved.

  32. 32
    Andrew says:

    ppG, you’re thinking seems to be along the lines of Bush administration planning on Iraq.

    Who wants to consider the possible outcomes and potential issues that may arise from such outcomes? It’s a head in the sand mentality.

    If we can’t consider the repercusions of a guilty or not guilty verdict in this case on multiple levels, including foreign perception, we’re setting ourselves up for a potentially dangerous surprise.

  33. 33
    Anderson says:

    ppGaz, have you not had your coffee or something?

    Andrew pointed out the obvious: we have no way of knowing if these guys are “correctly accused” without an investigation and a court-martial.

    That’s how we decide whether someone is “correctly accused” in America. What’s your technique?

  34. 34
    ppGaz says:

    This wasn’t one unbalanced guy going batshit, it was an organized unit of the US marine corps going around slaughtering civilians with impunity.

    …..and it happened six months ago, and was covered up since then—- unless the entire Marine Corps is so corrupt that everyone who knew what because they were there had happened helped to cover it up.

    ****************

    I’m not in favor of executing these guys

    Gee, how noble of you. And your facts are wrong. I think the Time Magazine story first broke about 90 days after the fact, not six months. Not sure of the exact dates, but Murtha did not break the story. He moved a story that was already out there.

  35. 35
    Anderson says:

    Thanks for the link, Historical Wit.

    The logic of the article (from International Socialist Review) is not always crystalline:

    Can there be any doubt that Akbar has been given a death sentence because he is Black, a Muslim, and a self-proclaimed hater of the U.S. Army? That his victims were officers insured a death sentence.

    Um, make up your mind, okay?

    Nothing on executions for killing civilians in occupied territories, though it’s rather startling how much easier it was for a black soldier to be executed.

  36. 36
    ppGaz says:

    That’s how we decide whether someone is “correctly accused” in America. What’s your technique?

    What the fuck is the matter with you? Have you read my posts? You are making my point.

    My additional point is that there is NOTHING to be gained, and a lot to be lost, by sitting here and talking about executions and life imprisonment before the process has worked. Nothing, except the satisfaction of shooting your mouth off on a blog. It serves no purpose, it’s ugly, it’s dishonest, it’s counterproductive, and it plays right into the hands of your political enemies while at the same time providing you NO benefit whatever.

    It’s stupid, and it demonstrates — yet again — that when it comes to tin ears and big mouths, the left can match the right stride for stride here, and has done in the past, and will do again.

    If you choose to not get that, that’s up to you.

  37. 37
    Brian says:

    Oh, in case no one noticed, General Hayden, who I predicted here (**blush**) would win confirmation, has in fact been confirmed as CIA director by a very wide margin. Which also confirms the obvious…..

    THAT WE’RE ONE STEP CLOSER TO A MILITARY DICTATORSHIP!!!!

  38. 38
    John S. says:

    I hope you have a brown bag to hyperventilate into. Sorry it’s not the perfect war, John.

    Yeah, because if anybody is a hyper-sensitive critic of the war effort, it’s John Cole.

    Allow me to be the first to say go fuck yourself, Brian.

  39. 39
    John Cole says:

    That’s right, “small number of Marines”. Marines who will be tried and convicted, if things shake out against them.

    Therefore, the whole war’s a sham? The entire Marine establishment is tarnished? America has a stain on its honor?

    I hope you have a brown bag to hyperventilate into. Sorry it’s not the perfect war, John.

    Project much?

    John, this is bullshit. This wasn’t one unbalanced guy going batshit, it was an organized unit of the US marine corps going around slaughtering civilians with impunity.

    …..and it happened six months ago, and was covered up since then—- unless the entire Marine Corps is so corrupt that everyone who knew what because they were there had happened helped to cover it up.

    Umm- since you don’t know anymore about this than the rest of us, I would submit that your typical ‘matter-of-fact’ attitude is rather amusing. Additionally, calling this an ‘organized unit’ is pretty laughable, as well.

    Every squad in the marines is, by definition, and ‘organized unit.’ The way you use the term, though, it makes it appear as if the Marine Corps has an official unit for murder. That is offensive and absurd.

    In all likelihood, this was a group of several soldiers, led by one squad leader, who probably had been through a lot of shit and/or were under a lot of stress, combined with the fact that they may not be the best of human beings to begin with (the point I was trying to make with the numbers- a point you sidestepped/missed/ignored), and they ‘took things into their own hands.’ For the willfully stupid and the pedants, that does not EXCUSE their behavior, but it puts it in a light that can help to explain what might have happened.

    I know this is going to be hard for some of you to grasp- there are probably a lot of factors that led to this massacre. It isn’t as simple as screaming “Bush’s fault” or “Marine Corps is packed with murderers!” like P. Lukasiak would want to. If it were that simple, there would be alot more of this happening. It was probably a bad individual or two, combined with some easily convinced younger soldiers, ombined with the obedience instilled in Marines to obey their NCO’s, a bloodthirst that can be created in combat situations, combined with fatigue, stress, apathy toward Iraqi’s, fatigue, a sense of hopelessness, etc. Maybe some of these involved had friends killed in roadside bombings? We don’t know, but in all likelihood, a number of things probably came together to create the perfect storm, if you will. That doesn;t make things any less awful, or this any less damaging to America, or those poor people any less dead, but it does help to explain what might have happened, and is a helluva lot clearer than Lukasiak’s idiotic “organized unit of the US marine corps going around slaughtering civilians with impunity” remark.

    As to the ‘cover-up,’ I have no idea what has happened, but I would surmise that those who committed the acts lied about them, those above them either believed them OR wanted to believe them and did not press the matter until there was enough political pressure to dig into the issue. If there was an active cover-up, in that they knew what these Marines did and chose to bury it, I do not know, and neither do you (and given this obnoxious comment from you, Paul, I am concluding there is an EXPANSIVE list of things you don’t know yet still feel fuly qualified to discuss). If that was the case, that is even worse, and I will be even more pissed.

    Since I am getting flamed from the left and the right on this post, I am going to conclude that this was the perfect post, take my ball, and go home.

  40. 40
    JoeTx says:

    Jessie MacBeth ?

    What is up with that story. I hadn’t even heard the name till I saw it on a blog aggragrator of right and left wing sites. I couldn’t even find it on any notible left-wing sites, but it was on 100’s of right-wing sites. Seems like just another bait and switch by the right to discredit anybody against the war.

  41. 41
    John S. says:

    Which also confirms the obvious…

    That the new ‘independent’ CIA man Hayden will be churning out Tenet-style reports of Iranian weapons malfeasance in order to build a case for military intervention.

  42. 42
    Andrew says:

    Oh, in case no one noticed, General Hayden, who I predicted here (**blush**) would win confirmation, has in fact been confirmed as CIA director by a very wide margin. Which also confirms the obvious…..

    Any other bets I should be taking soon, Brian? Putting money on the sun coming up tomorrow also sounds like a pretty sure thing, but I’m not quite 100% on it.

  43. 43
    Brian says:

    what I am in favor of is placing them under the jurisdiction of the Hague, and letting the international community try them for crimes against humanity. The US needs to demonstrates that it understands and respects international standards of conduct in war, and only by allowing the international community to pass judgement on these soldiers can that be achieved.

    Lemme guess, you think we should turn over the situation in Darfur, and the growing crisis in Iran, with the U.N.? The beacon of the international community, where truth is revealed, problems solved equitably, justice served appropriately, and action taken swiftly?

    Let’s get something straight — if America is the dog, the international community is the tail. We take care of our messes, and will not and should not, entrust them to the “international community” which has no other interest than having America under its thumb.

    Understood?

  44. 44
    ppGaz says:

    Time’s story from March about the incident

    You know, before you shoot your mouth off about a story of this gravity, it would behoove some of you to take five minutes to check your facts and get the basics right.

    This Time link took me MAYBE 45 seconds to find.

    You are all quick to jump Darrell when he shoots from the hip, so why not take a few minutes to slow down and avoid doing the same thing yourself? If there is one story out there that deserves that extra effort, this is it.

  45. 45
    Brian says:

    Any other bets I should be taking soon, Brian?

    Hey, feel free to go back to Tim’s post on the issue, the day Goss resigned, and look at the wild predictions on who Bush would nominate, let alone get confirmed.

    Dipshit.

  46. 46
    Brian says:

    Project much?

    Huh?

  47. 47
    tBone says:

    Let’s get something straight—- if America is the dog, the international community is the tail. We take care of our messes, and will not and should not, entrust them to the “international community” which has no other interest than having America under its thumb.

    For the love of Christ – if you’re going to spoof, at least put some effort into it.

  48. 48
    p.lukasiak says:

    Gee, how noble of you. And your facts are wrong. I think the Time Magazine story first broke about 90 days after the fact, not six months. Not sure of the exact dates, but Murtha did not break the story. He moved a story that was already out there.

    PPgaz… if a group of people come to your town, and murders 15 people in cold blood, it isn’t going to take 90 days for the first US media reports (which were not confirmed by the Pentagon) to show up in your local paper. And it isn’t going to take another 90 days to “confirm” the story.

    Here’s a clue — the first stories about the atrocities came out right after they happened. Not 90 days later in Time magazine. But the supine US media accepts the word of the Pentagon over the word of dozens of Iraqi witnesses — so rather than have the truth come out right away, it took 90 days for any mainstream media outlet to not the atrocity that had occurred.

    Just as there were stories coming out of Abu Ghraib (and Guantanamo) about prison abuse well before Mary Mapes at CBS got the pictures, so too has the Haditha massacre been discussed. But it took for the Pentagon to acknowledge what everyone in Haditha knew — why?

  49. 49
    ppGaz says:

    Lukasiak, shut up. Really. You glibly shot your mouth off about a six-month coverup. Your post is right there for all to see.

    There was no six-month coverup.

    YOU WERE WRONG.

  50. 50
    John Cole says:

    Jessie MacBeth ?

    What is up with that story. I hadn’t even heard the name till I saw it on a blog aggragrator of right and left wing sites. I couldn’t even find it on any notible left-wing sites, but it was on 100’s of right-wing sites. Seems like just another bait and switch by the right to discredit anybody against the war.

    Yes. Jessie Mcbeth was a right wing plant to discredit all lefties. /snicker

    Seriously, though, there are a lot of right-wingers who rightly get angry when people make up nasty shit about our troops like McBeth did, including me (although I do not know how much of a right winger I am anymore, at least by the current standards of right wing- Brian here thinks I am a member of Comintern). They have every right to get angry with him, as do all Americans (and I would think all anti-war advocates would be equally livid with that little shit).

    What boggles my mind, though, is that while they have every right to be angry at folks like McBeth, they do nothing but roll out excuses for the Abu Ghraib bullshit, blame the media for Guantanamo, and when things like the murders described in this post happen, they IMMEDIATELY roll out tired platitudes like “Sorry it’s not the perfect war, John.”

    That would, in my opinion, make them legitimate targets for charges of hypocrisy, and would lead me to believe that the only thing some of them do care about regarding Jessie McBeth is the opportunity to silence all anti-war critics. Because, as we all know, if you don’t agree with Rush Limbaugh, you are a traitor.

  51. 51
    Darrell says:

    I am simply chomping at the bit to get Darrell’s take on this. You can place your bets early

    It appears Murtha had knowledgeable sources in the investigation. Doesn’t change the fact that it was scummy as hell of Murtha to make such allegations, including comparison to Mai Lai, while the investigation was still open and facts still being gathered.

    If the Marines are found guilty, they need to be punished severerely. As of now, they have not even had an opportunity to present their defense.

  52. 52
    Punchy says:

    I hope you have a brown bag to hyperventilate into. Sorry it’s not the perfect war, John.

    Not the perfect war? You’re fucking sick. CHILDREN summarily executed. Women blow away. ON PURPOSE. Not for intel, not out of fear, but for SPORT.

    God I hate people like you, excusing one crime after another. KIDS WERE SHOT, POINT BLANK. I guess in your world, that’s “not perfect”. To me, it’s murder one.

  53. 53
    p.lukasiak says:

    BTW ppgaz, here is what the Time piece said about the evidence….

    The available evidence does not provide conclusive proof that the Marines deliberately killed innocents in Haditha.

    Its wasn’t a story that said “this is what happened”, it was a “he said/she said” story (that did, at least, make it fairly obvious that the Marines were lying through their teeth.

    It shouldn’t take six months to admit that the cold blooded murder of 15 Iraqis occurred. Period.

  54. 54
    Krista says:

    I’m sorry, but combat stress can indeed explain the soldier’s behavior; what it can’t do is excuse it.

    True.

    One point to remember:

    investigation into the deaths of two dozen Iraqis last November is expected to find that a small number of marines in western Iraq carried out extensive, unprovoked killings of civilians, Congressional, military and Pentagon officials said Thursday.

    So, for now…we wait, I guess. Anybody know when they anticipate resolving the investigation?

  55. 55
    p.lukasiak says:

    according to John, most of the 9-11 hijackers were apparently just stressed out, and under the influence of a bad leader — they really aren’t bad people, and we really have to look at their actions in their full context… right John?

  56. 56
    John Cole says:

    It shouldn’t take six months to admit that the cold blooded murder of 15 Iraqis occurred.

    Why not? It took Clinton years to admit to getting a blowjob, and a lot of guys brag about that kind of stuff.

    Sorry. I guess there is still a little right-winger in me after all.

  57. 57
    John Cole says:

    according to John, most of the 9-11 hijackers were apparently just stressed out, and under the influence of a bad leader—they really aren’t bad people, and we really have to look at their actions in their full context… right John?

    Wow. That is so stupid, and such an f-d up analogy, I am going to let someone else take a whack at it. I will check back after class. I will get the ball rolling though:

    One group of people signed up to serve their country.
    The other group signed up to murder civilians for the glory of Allah and to punish the Great Satan and promote Islamic supremecy.

    You have a couple of hours to figure out which group is the Marines, and which group is the 9/11 hijackers, Lukasiak.

  58. 58
    ppGaz says:

    It shouldn’t take six months to admit that the cold blooded murder of 15 Iraqis occurred. Period.

    That’s a fact not yet in public evidence. Perhaps a court martial will bring out those facts.

    But, keep at it, if you post enough shit, you can eventually deflect from the fact that you pulled a “six month coverup” out of your ass.

  59. 59
    Nikki says:

    Why not? It took Clinton years to admit to getting a blowjob, and a lot of guys brag about that kind of stuff.

    Sorry. I guess there is still a little right-winger in me after all.

    There would have to be for you to make that kind of a comparison.

  60. 60
    MAX HATS says:

    I’m pleased these incidents are being investigated by the military legal authorities and castigated by the higher-ups. This is a 180 from the Tiger Killings in Vietnam, and shows the Corps is serious about maintaining a high standard of honor and professionalism.

  61. 61
    Punchy says:

    My additional point is that there is NOTHING to be gained, and a lot to be lost, by sitting here and talking about executions and life imprisonment before the process has worked.

    What, exactly, is to be lost? What are we losing? Discussing the situation, it’s ramifications, if true, and the potential for cover-up is making lose what, precisely?

    The Marines shot some people. On purpose. For sport…Dammit…now I’ve “lost”.

  62. 62
    jg says:

    In all likelihood, this was a group of several soldiers, led by one squad leader, who probably had been through a lot of shit and/or were under a lot of stress, combined with the fact that they may not be the best of human beings to begin with (the point I was trying to make with the numbers- a point you sidestepped/missed/ignored), and they ‘took things into their own hands.’

    I saw that movie, Michael J Fox was in it.

    It wasn’t bad apples, or a rogue unit or combat stress. It wasn’t one thing. It was the whole situation coming to a head. This is what happens when you take kids from one country, put them in a foreign land and tell them to do war against a country they don’t have a beef with. For 3 years they’ve been patrolling a desert wearing full battle rattle fighting an enemy that looks just like the freindlies. Anyone at anytime can open fire on you. You don’t have to be a bad apple to snap. Anyone of us could be a soldier at My Lai, we aren’t better than them, we just weren’t there. They shouldn’t have been there either.

    This is just the inevitable result of starting this war. This stupid, misguided, unnescessary, war.

  63. 63
    ppGaz says:

    What, exactly, is to be lost?

    You might want to look up the expression “tin ear.”

    If you don’t know, then you have one. Or maybe two. I suppose a person can have plural “tin ears” although the standard use is singular.

    Let’s all hand in our dissertations on why posturing and speculation and rhetoric about a case like this, before the facts are known and the process has worked, has no risks and no downside. Why, we have to wonder why everyone doesn’t do it? Maybe Jay Leno can start making jokes about it? Why stop at having diarrhea of the mouth over it, here? Why not go for the gusto? Start calling the talk radio shows, writing letters to editors, beat the fucking drums! If there’s political hay to be made, let’s get to it!

    You know what? My comments are intended for those who know what I mean. If you aren’t among those, then ignore them, and think and say whatever you like. Who gives a shit?

  64. 64
    capelza says:

    If, if these Marines are convicted..the true Mi Lai test will be their life sentences commuted to three years house arrest.

    As for Murtha, I always thought his REAL point was that this bullshit war has put THAT kind of stress on on the soldiers. It was from concern that he did this.

  65. 65
    ppGaz says:

    It wasn’t bad apples, or a rogue unit or combat stress. It wasn’t one thing. It was the whole situation coming to a head. This is what happens when you take kids from one country, put them in a foreign land and tell them to do war against a country they don’t have a beef with. For 3 years they’ve been patrolling a desert wearing full battle rattle fighting an enemy that looks just like the freindlies. Anyone at anytime can open fire on you. You don’t have to be a bad apple to snap. Anyone of us could be a soldier at My Lai, we aren’t better than them, we just weren’t there. They shouldn’t have been there either.

    This is just the inevitable result of starting this war. This stupid, misguided, unnescessary, war.

    That is essentially Murtha’s argument. I happen to agree with him.

  66. 66
    p.lukasiak says:

    There was no six-month coverup.

    when did the Pentagon officially admit what happened? Today.

    when did the atrocities occur? Last November.

    Do the fucking math.

  67. 67
    Punchy says:

    Let’s all hand in our dissertations on why posturing and speculation and rhetoric about a case like this, before the facts are known and the process has worked, has no risks and no downside

    Your logic seems to suggest we don’t dissect anything until the process is complete. Fine. But don’t criticize the Iraq war–it’s not over. No comments, criticisms, or critiques on Bush’s handling of the WOT–it’s still being fought. In fact, we should be thusly admonished for even discussing Bush’s presidency, his intentions, his legacy, since that’s not over either.

    I’m not here to flame, just to say that “waiting for more information” does not preclude having a debate about the incident. OF COURSE more information is necessary. But I’m betting that the main points are true (i.e., I’m taking Murtha’s word), and commenting from there. Peace.

  68. 68
    MAX HATS says:

    It wasn’t bad apples, or a rogue unit or combat stress.

    What.

    This is what happens when you take kids from one country, put them in a foreign land and tell them to do war against a country they don’t have a beef with. For 3 years they’ve been patrolling a desert wearing full battle rattle fighting an enemy that looks just like the freindlies. Anyone at anytime can open fire on you. You don’t have to be a bad apple to snap. Anyone of us could be a soldier at My Lai, we aren’t better than them, we just weren’t there. They shouldn’t have been there either.

    Bull. There’s a whole lot of kids in Iraq who aren’t murdering and pillaging for kicks, and they’re under the same stress. Trying to shift responsibility for murder away from the murderer is an insult to everyone who obeys the law and does their duty.

    Beyond immediate responsibility, though, there is making sure this doesn’t happen again.

    There are some sick bastards in the military, just like there are sick bastards in the police and sick bastards in top tier accounting firms. The nature of sick bastards is, whenever they feel they can get away with something sick, they do it. That’s why the best thing for this episode is what’s happening – military justice and the brass coming over to lay down the law on everyone.

  69. 69
    ppGaz says:

    In January, after TIME presented military officials in Baghdad with the Iraqis’ accounts of the Marines’ actions, the U.S. opened its own investigation, interviewing 28 people, including the Marines, the families of the victims and local doctors. According to military officials, the inquiry acknowledged that, contrary to the military’s initial report, the 15 civilians killed on Nov. 19 died at the hands of the Marines, not the insurgents. The military announced last week that the matter has been handed over to the Naval Criminal Investigative Service (NCIS), which will conduct a criminal investigation to determine whether the troops broke the laws of war by deliberately targeting civilians. Lieut. Colonel Michelle Martin-Hing, spokeswoman for the Multi-National Force–Iraq, told TIME the involvement of the NCIS does not mean that a crime occurred. And she says the fault for the civilian deaths lies squarely with the insurgents, who “placed noncombatants in the line of fire as the Marines responded to defend themselves.”

    TIME Magazine, March 2006.

    Not a coverup. A process, and an investigation, which is still ongoing.

    Your calling it a “coverup” (a) does not make it a coverup, (b) is not congruent with the facts on the public ground since March, and (c) is counterproductive to the political cause you think you are representing here.

    I was right, and you are still wrong, and you really should just shut the hell up.

  70. 70
    ppGaz says:

    “waiting for more information” does not preclude having a debate about the incident. OF COURSE more information is necessary

    .

    Umm hmm. What kind of “debate” are you going to have with hotheads who don’t have all the facts but are more than willing to make them up, or extrapolate them?

    None. That’s not a “debate.” That’s talk radio.

  71. 71

    […] I’m sick. So is John Cole. It’s hard not to over-react to this. Update: After seeing some comments and other bloggers’ reactions — […]

  72. 72
    p.lukasiak says:

    Your calling it a “coverup” (a) does not make it a coverup, (b) is not congruent with the facts on the public ground since March, and© is counterproductive to the political cause you think you are representing here.

    six months to admit that crimes against humanity had occurred. Time was unable to provide a source who would speak on the record. And, most damning of all, is this bit you quoted….

    In January, after TIME presented military officials in Baghdad with the Iraqis’ accounts of the Marines’ actions, the U.S. opened its own investigation, …

    15 people were murdered…. everyone in Haditha — and probably every Sunni in Iraq knew about it — but the Pentagon didn’t even bother to open an investigation until Time Magazine forced their hand.

    That’s a cover-up.

  73. 73
    Punchy says:

    Umm hmm. What kind of “debate” are you going to have with hotheads who don’t have all the facts but are more than willing to make them up, or extrapolate them?

    Isn’t this the very nature of a blog? I don’t come here for facts, I come for opinion. Perhaps I’m in the minority. And if having “all the facts” is the criteria for discussion about anything this gov’t does…well..there wouldn’t be a whole lot of discussing going on.

  74. 74
    neil says:

    What the fuck does Jessie MacBeth have to do with this? Did you include it in his article just to throw into harsh relief how vapid and bankrupt the right’s obsession with him is?

    “Well, on the one hand, some American soldiers apparently committed mass murder, but of course when you’ve got so many soldiers with guns then some of them are bound to be bad app.. HEY LOOK OVER THERE! THAT GUY SAID HE’S A VETERAN BUT HE ISN’T OH MY GOD!”

    I know this isn’t your intention, but the only clearly made point in your post is that Jessie MacBeth is a lying psychotic douchebag. It only makes you look more ambivalent about the whole murder part. (You know, with millions and millions of anti-war activists, a few of them are bound to be compulsive liars.)

  75. 75
    Mark says:

    There are a number of people treating this incident, sensibly, as something arising from the stresses of war. There are a few others, Brian most vocally, who regard it as the isolated doings of a few very bad apples. Unfortunately, at some level, these two propositions conflict. The stresses suffered by the murderous marines were hardly theirs alone, and if other Marines aren’t massacring children in cold blood, it is nevertheless likely that many of them do commit acts from time to time that would, as John says, “make you turn off the television for a few days and pretend you never supported the invasion of Iraq.”

    Of course, I can say this without feeling as though I’m slandering “the troops” because, like dememondian, I can imagine what it is to suffer the duress of war. Our soldiers have my sympathy. I reserve my anger, partly, for the J. Coles of the world, who, when faced with the predictable consequences of their desires, wish to turn off the TV. I bid them leave it on, and learn something. Perhaps, if you do, you’ll never have to watch it again.

  76. 76
    radish says:

    I’m sorry, but combat stress can indeed explain the soldier’s behavior; what it can’t do is excuse it.

    Yeah, that. Disagree about the penalty though. Also sending them to the Hague instead of trying them at home would do a lot for the Marines’ (and the US’s) credibility and honor, but I’m not holding my breath.

    Oh and it’s totally fucking crazy to see something like this happening at all. Anybody who tells you Rumsfeld isn’t breaking the US military is a moronic shitstick. Marines are not supposed to freak out and go into free-fire mode. These aren’t suburban rent-a-cops who joined a local NG unit expecting to do two weekends a month and then wound up getting a Dear John letter at the start of their third tour. These are the guys who are supposed to be totally unflappable. No wonder Murtha’s climbing the walls.

    Proof that crazy shit can come from either side of the aisle around here.

    Just one of many delightful things about this blog. Also the fact that you can call people who disagree with you moronic shitsticks without violating posting rules.

    when did the Pentagon officially admit what happened? Today.

    I think ppGaz’s point is that they weren’t in a position to “cover it up” in any meaningful sense. Iraqis knew what happened, for a stone cold fact and pretty much from day one. Murtha (apparently) knew almost as much, almost as soon, through friends in the Corps. And anybody else who wasn’t carefully deluding themself about what a clusterfuck this is suspected as much whenever they first heard about it. Yer average American citizen is always the last to know anyway.

  77. 77
    capelza says:

    I followed the link of the Politburo Diktat…his post is very good. As is John Cole’s. :) The PD post is worth reading, especially as it calls for responsible reporting from the rightie blogs.

    But in the comments in response to the well written piece is the fucking JAWA trackback…”Have you ever seen Murtha and MacBeth in the same room?”…jeeezuzzz.

  78. 78
    Anderson says:

    ppGaz: Have you read my posts? You are making my point.

    *My* point was that Andrew pointed this out, & you acted like he wasn’t “persuasive.” Have you read your own posts?

    p. lukasiak: It shouldn’t take six months to admit that the cold blooded murder of 15 Iraqis occurred. Period.

    Right, but note that if the guys on the spot are lying their asses off, it makes it a lot harder to figure out the truth. I don’t blame the Corps for supposing that Iraqi civilians might indeed lie that atrocities occurred when they didn’t. And god knows, by contrast, one wishes the Marines had been running Abu Ghraib.

    Who knows how/why the truth came to the attention of higher-ups … maybe someone felt guilty & blabbed, maybe someone was humorously acting out how the Iraqis in the taxi begged for mercy …

  79. 79
    JoeTx says:

    What boggles my mind, though, is that while they have every right to be angry at folks like McBeth, they do nothing but roll out excuses for the Abu Ghraib bullshit, blame the media for Guantanamo, and when things like the murders described in this post happen, they IMMEDIATELY roll out tired platitudes like “Sorry it’s not the perfect war, John.”

    That would, in my opinion, make them legitimate targets for charges of hypocrisy, and would lead me to believe that the only thing some of them do care about regarding Jessie McBeth is the opportunity to silence all anti-war critics. Because, as we all know, if you don’t agree with Rush Limbaugh, you are a traitor.

    Thanks John for making my point better than I could!

    Murtha shows legitimate concern for the troops. He is concerned they don’t have enough equipment, he is concerned about stoploss and the endless rotations, he shows concern for the cuts in the VA. He shows this tragedy as case in point WHY dubya and rummy are destroying our military.

    Exactly how has dubya supported our troops? I mean other than just using them for political props!

    There are SO MANY legitimate critics that voice VALID points of contention against this war, but all the right can focus on is one person who has dupped EVERYBODY and ring it up as some “left-wing conspiracy”

  80. 80
    neil says:

    I guess my point is, John, don’t allow yourself to be taken in by the hype. Nothing could possibly matter less than Jessie MacBeth, and I really don’t see what the point of piling on it is. Especially since you seem, from this post, to be acutely aware that it is nothing but a distraction from the horrible news of the day, something for the conserva-blogs to feel righteous about.

    There are people in Congress taking bribes. There are soldiers in Iraq murdering children. And the entire right-wing blogosphere is focused on a kid in an anti-war video who apparently lied. Considering how little they care about the lies told to start the war, I think it is plain that this guy is just a whipping boy, and it is sad to see you join in. Does it really make you feel better or does it just distract from that horrible feeling that you have from having supported the war in the first place? (Hey, you said it felt horrible, not me.)

  81. 81
    Davebo says:

    “There was no six-month coverup.”

    No, there were two 3 month coverups, I guess.

    Coverup #1. They were killed by the IED.

    Coverup #2. OK, they weren’t killed by the IED, they were killed in a crossfire after the explosion.

    What will be interesting is whether or not they attempt coverup #3. The first and second could be attributed to fairly junior officers on the ground. If there’s a third, it’s coming directly from Rummy.

  82. 82
    neil says:

    I guess you didn’t say it felt horrible — you just said you didn’t want to think about it. Either way, MacBeth is a distraction.

  83. 83
    jg says:

    Bull. There’s a whole lot of kids in Iraq who aren’t murdering and pillaging for kicks, and they’re under the same stress.

    They are under the same stress, but they didn’t snap, some did. I’m not excusing anyone or anything. What they did was wrong. My point is just that its not clear and shouldn’t be used as some kind of reasoning, that these are bad seeds, the type who would probably do this type of thing if they weren’t in theatre.

  84. 84
    Pooh says:

    It’s rare that Darrell isn’t the biggest arse in a thread. Congratulations on the belt, how does it fit P.Luk? You’re a champ.

  85. 85
    Pb says:

    heh.

    Not a coverup. A process, and an investigation, which is still ongoing.

    I can’t comment on that, as it is the subject of an ongoing coverupinvestigation.

  86. 86
    Punchy says:

    From the NYT:

    Officials briefed on preliminary results of the inquiry said the civilians killed at Haditha, a lawless, insurgent-plagued city deep in Sunni-dominated Anbar Province, did not die from a makeshift bomb, as the military first reported, or in cross-fire between marines and attackers, as was later announced. A separate inquiry has begun to find whether the events were deliberately covered up.

    We’ll know later, but this sounds like a cover up. Bombs! No, wait. No bombs. Cross-fire! Terrorists! Wait, kids are dead. Hold on. Why does the story keep changing?

    Only after Time steps in does the Pentagon look into it. Sans Time, we’d be forced to believe women and children are now insurgents. And many Americans can’t understand why the Iraqis don’t treat us as allies and friends….

  87. 87
    Davebo says:

    Here’s a question for PPGaz.

    Had Time magazine not presented DOD with their evidence, would DOD be investigating now?

    Of course not. Why?

    BECAUSE THERE WAS A FREAKIN COVERUP!

  88. 88
    ppGaz says:

    Have you read your own posts?

    Forget it. Waste of time talking to you about this.

    “There was no six-month coverup.”

    No, there were two 3 month coverups, I guess

    During the time that the story is being explored, people are being interviewed, various pieces of the story are being examined … and conflicting tidbits are getting out into the public view … there is not a “coverup.” That’s the way things work.

    If, after the facts were gathered and a coherent picture of the story has taken shape, there is a concerted effort to deny that, or make up another story, and suppress the best available version of the story … that’s a coverup.

    And people defending themselves against accusations … that’s not a coverup either. We are not required to make the job of our accusers easier.

    This “coverup” bullshit is just that … bullshit.

    It’s gratuitous, and it’s unbelievably stupid because it serves no purpose.

  89. 89
    DougJ says:

    The scary thing is how much power Jessie Macbeth has. I wish Congress would stand up to him for once.

  90. 90
    ppGaz says:

    Had Time magazine not presented DOD with their evidence, would DOD be investigating now?

    That question is not relevant, and it isn’t answerable either. We don’t know, and I have no reason to speculate as to the answer.

    You, apparently, do. So go ahead. Make an ass of yourself.

  91. 91
    fwiffo says:

    This is the kind of news report that makes you just want to turn off the television for the next few days and pretend you never supported the invasion of Iraq:

    I gotta tell ya John, I don’t have to pretend, but I still feel pretty sick. But the fact is, this is the kinda shit that happens in war. Also, you may have noticed, some people get their legs and arms and heads blown off even during the “good” fights. My guess is that you know what this is better than most, with your military background.

    This is exactly why should be an incredibly high standard for what grounds are appropriate for starting a war. This stuff happens. The government and the media make it look like a game with all the gee-whiz gizmos and smart bombs that really only kill the evil people with the blackest of hearts.

    2.) Jessie MacBeth is still a lying, psychotic douchebag.

    I could call him the latest Ward Churchill, and that would be generous. He’s just the most recent in a series of lone nuts made famous by denunciations from the right. Serously, are any left-wing blogs even talking about this guy except in response to the right-wing’s bizarre circus? He’s a straw-man made flesh.

    Is there any evidence that he’s not a completely fictional character? Nobody ever even hears about these alleged “left-wing heros” until the right “discovers” them. He would have had zero audience if the right hadn’t been working overtime to promote him.

    (and I would think all anti-war advocates would be equally livid with that little shit).

    Yeah, I think we are, at least those of us who’ve actually heard of him, but to expect anti-war folks to seek out such nuts just to denounce them is a bit like when Sean Hannity asks why Democrats spend their time disagreeing with George W. Bush instead of talking about how terrible a person Saddam Hussein is. And when did you stop beating your wife?

  92. 92
    Davebo says:

    That question is not relevant

    Err.. No, it’s not that the question is not relevant, it’s entirely relevant.

    The problem for you with the question is that it’s incredibly inconveniant.

    Talk about zero credibility.

  93. 93
    ppGaz says:

    The problem for you with the question is that it’s incredibly inconveniant.

    Nope. It is neither answerable, nor relevant.

    In other words, just the kind of thing that noisemakers will jump on to stir up a story like this for their own purposes.

    Go ahead, knock yourself out.

  94. 94
    Davebo says:

    . It is neither answerable, nor relevant.

    Not only is it answerable, it’s basically already been answered.

    But hey, at least we saved poor Jessica Lynch!

  95. 95
    jg says:

    Isn’t Jessie MacBeth rumored to be secretly married to Cindy Sheehan? Isn’t he also a Winter Soldier? It’s pretty likely he’s also the CIA guy who keeps leaking stuff to the press. Jessie ‘Forrest Gump’ MacBeth, the embodiement of everything the right says the left is doing to hurt the country. The human jackalope.

  96. 96

    This Jessie MacBeth character… I’ve never seen anything about it except for some righty sites taking the time to condemn him. It’s like they were feeling bad, they had to make up someone to condemn.

    Which leads to the obviously conclusion… the guy is a spoof.

  97. 97
    D. Mason says:

    What the fuck does Jessie MacBeth have to do with this?

    It’s just another example of a Republican flogging that Jesse MacBeth non-story. One idiot lies to another idiot and idiot #2 posts the video on the intarwebs. Next thing you know the right wing bloviosphere is pretending it’s another vast left-wing conspiracy to make our benevolent President look bad. Is Jesse MacBeth a turd? Sure. Are his actions in any way reflective of the anti-war movement? No. But the John Coles of the right will frame it as such. That’s what Jesse MacBeth has to do with it. Afterall, if Jesse MacBeth, darling of the left, will lie about slaughtering Iraqi civilians, then how can you trust any story about our military killing civilians? You can’t and that’s a scientific fact.

  98. 98
    jg says:

    In other words, just the kind of thing that noisemakers will jump on to stir up a story like this for their own purposes.

    Go ahead, knock yourself out.

    Are you quoting our hosts’ responses during the Katrina affair?

  99. 99
    Davebo says:

    I’ve never seen anything about it except for some righty sites taking the time to condemn him.

    There was one post on Kos about the guy. Unfortunately for John the very first comments warned that folks should be skeptical.

    Maybe Goopers really are just incredibly gullible?

  100. 100
    fwiffo says:

    Isn’t he also a Winter Soldier?

    No snark necessary. Righty commenters are comparing this idiot to John Kerry already, citing books written by people who think Mai Lai never happend and that Vietnam was the best idea ever. Some people need their head smacked against a wall of black granite 58,000 times.

  101. 101
    ppGaz says:

    Not only is it answerable, it’s basically already been answered.

    Not even Darrell could pursue such a Darrell-esque line of bullshit. You’d be all over him for it, and rightly so.

    But, like I said, knock yourself out.

  102. 102
    ppGaz says:

    Are you quoting our hosts’ responses during the Katrina affair?

    No, I’m a renegade here …. I write all my own material.

    Love it or hate it, it’s mine.

    Truth be told, I was just out of the hospital at Katrina time and I don’t really remember the details of “BJ Does Katrina.” I do know that I said Nagin was a sorry fuck of a mayor, and I am happy to say that almost a year later, I still think so.

  103. 103
    radish says:

    Nothing could possibly matter less than Jessie MacBeth

    I’m mighty sorry to say that after seeing a bunch of vague but outraged references to some guy named Jesse MacBeth over the past couple of days, I broke down and looked. Jeez. There are definitely things that matter less, but they’re not on my radar at all… I might as well have watched the mentos and diet coke video a couple more times.

  104. 104
    tBone says:

    Are his actions in any way reflective of the anti-war movement? No. But the John Coles of the right will frame it as such.

    I don’t know why John felt the need to stick in a reference to that dipshit in his original post, but I don’t think you’re being fair to John here; he said this in one of his comments:

    They have every right to get angry with him, as do all Americans (and I would think all anti-war advocates would be equally livid with that little shit).

    Oh wait, you said “John Coles of the Right,” which of course doesn’t include John. My mistake. Carry on.

  105. 105
    Davebo says:

    Just one minute has a nice post on this subject and Tom actually took more responsibility than I think he owed.

    But the commenters! Hilarious.

    Like this one…

    “There is the possibility that this action is related to gang members serving in the military.”

    A guy after PPGaz’s heart I say!

  106. 106
    jg says:

    Truth be told, I was just out of the hospital at Katrina time and I don’t really remember the details of “BJ Does Katrina.”

    I can sum it up as ‘its too early to play the blame game’ as we all pointed out how worthless the federal gov’t has become regarding disaster relief. I guess ‘reverted back to’ is better than ‘become’ since its the same as it was under the first Bush.

  107. 107

    Ok, so I went to the hotair link of John’s. Hotair apparently is Michelle Malkin’s hate site.

    The jist of the article is… This Jessie MacBeth was never in the military, he’s lying. He’s wearing false insignia, blah blah blah.

    So a fabricated video featuring a guy that the righties can condemn. The perfect Jackalope.

    The guy is obviously a spoof.

  108. 108
    Darrell says:

    He’s just the most recent in a series of lone nuts made famous by denunciations from the right. Serously, are any left-wing blogs even talking about this guy except in response to the right-wing’s bizarre circus?

    Yes
    they were
    . Lots of them apparently, until he was exposed, as Jessie MacBeth was #2 on the technorati search at that time. Daily KOS, not ‘rightwingnuts’, referred to MacBeth as the Iraq “Winter Soldier”. More touting here.

    Now the left is backpeddling like hell, telling us Jessie was “never a big deal”, only in the imagination of the rightwingnuts, as if they never touted him as a prime example why the entire Iraq war is a sham.

  109. 109
    neil says:

    I wish I’d seen that comment about anti-war activists being ‘equally livid’ with him — I think that would make a much more interesting point of discussion, actually.

    I’ll take a crack at it. If I were affiliated in any way with the anti-war group that he was in, or with the creation of that video, I would be pissed, that’s for sure. But, in fact, I have never met any of those people. I never heard of Jessie MacBeth before, though, so learning about him in the context I did, I know not to trust him, but I have absolutely no reason to be ‘livid’ with him.

    From an objective, external point of view, what he did was essentially inconsequential. There are enough bad things being done in the world that this one ranks quite low — if I wanted to get livid at individual bad actors, I’d rather watch Jerry Springer. Or, since you put it in this context, I’d rather read about the soldiers who murdered these Iraqi children in their homes.

    I know that what John wants us anti-war peaceniks to think is that this guy is discrediting us and our whole movement and blah, blah blah. But I certainly don’t feel that way, and I think it’s a dishonest, sloppy argument to make. (It’s also the same prototype argument that got Bush reelected, so we know John is vulnerable to it.)

    I am, however, livid at dishonest people like Michelle Malkin who refuse to address any of the valid arguments of their opponents, instead choosing to caricature them with the most unrepresentative schmucks they can find and pretend that this proves anything. You want to talk about the anti-war movement, Michelle? Let’s not talk about the one anti-war activist out of tens of thousands who pretends to be a soldier when he isn’t. Let’s talk about why those tens of thousands of people were right when you were wrong.

  110. 110
    p.lukasiak says:

    Right, but note that if the guys on the spot are lying their asses off, it makes it a lot harder to figure out the truth.

    except for two things….

    1) the people of Haditha have been claiming from day one that there was a massacre

    2) an “after action” report filed by another unit made it glaringly obvious that the Marine Corp murderers were lying…..

    So, in other words, the Marine Corps hierarchy knew two things straight off….yet never bothered to investigate what happened at Haditha until forced to do so by Time magazine.

    I mean, even the Pentagon admits that it is conducting a separate “coverup” investigation…. yet according to ppgaz, there was no “coverup”. If you read the Time article, the only Pentagon person whose name is used is quoted as saying ” the involvement of the NCIS does not mean that a crime occurred”. This is AFTER Time confronted the Pentagon with witness statements and video tape that laid out the situation.

    Its clear that the Marine Corps had no interest in investigating this atrocity, and looked for any possible plausible explanation that would get these murderers off the hook. Its only because the whole thing was so egregious and undeniable that we are finally being told about it — and given the fact that the Corps explanations kept changing until each new explanation was proven to be a lie, its pretty absurd to say “no cover-up”.

    (Hint to ppgaz…. just because a coverup proves unsuccessful doesn’t mean that one did not occur.)

  111. 111
    tBone says:

    Yes they were.

    Wow. A Kos diary with 11 comments, many of which expressing skepticism about the story. Yes, based on that damning evidence, it’s obvious the Left really was touting him “as a prime example why the entire Iraq war is a sham.”

  112. 112
    neil says:

    I guess you’ve got me started on a rant, but I have one more thing to say. You love, John, to talk about how the liberals are intolerant witch-hunters. But I don’t think I can remember a single experience of the liberal blogs picking some nobody out of an Internet video to start a ‘witch-hunt’ against them. No, it’s people who are actually important — government appointees, members of Congress, major newspaper editors and columnists.

    Whereas the right-wing blogs, and I am fully including you in this, John, love nothing more than to pick some straw-man out of obscurity — an anti-war activist student, an assistant professor, an elementary-school teacher — and subject them to intense public haranguing. That’s not right and I’d like to see you distance yourself from it, but now here we are again with John holding a pitchfork and a flaming torch aloft.

  113. 113
    p.lukasiak says:

    I can sum it up as ‘its too early to play the blame game’ as we all pointed out how worthless the federal gov’t has become regarding disaster relief.

    wasn’t that the same tack Cole took with the mine explosion? That we had to take a “wait and see” attitude, and couldn’t start pointing fingers at the lax safety enforcement of Bushco until “all the facts were in.”

  114. 114
    Darrell says:

    I am, however, livid at dishonest people like Michelle Malkin who refuse to address any of the valid arguments of their opponents, instead choosing to caricature them with the most unrepresentative schmucks they can find and pretend that this proves anything.

    Whoa there flicka.. Wasn’t it a large segment of the left which for example, jumped all over the White Phosphorus “outrage”, smearing our troops as using Chem weapons. That wasn’t just one lone whackjob, that was if not most leftists.. many, many of them involved with that smear.

    Just like on this very thread you’ll find not one, but a number of examples of those on the left ridiculing the idea that these alleged atrocities are merely “a few bad apples”.. they are actually trying to smear the entire military and the entire war with this. Doubt me? Re-read this thread

  115. 115
    fwiffo says:

    Yes they were. Lots of them apparently,

    A Dailykos diary that never even hit the recommended list and had all of 11 comments, many or most of which were skeptical. Right. Diaries about floride and precious bodily fluids get more play on Dailykos than that.

    I read a number of left of center blogs on a daily basis, and today is the first I’ve heard of him.

    Face it, MacBeth is a right-blogistan phenomenon.

  116. 116
    ppGaz says:

    Hint to ppgaz…. just because a coverup proves unsuccessful doesn’t mean that one did not occur

    Hint to you asshole: You really ought to try a different approach than the strawman-a-minute tactic. I never made any such argument, and you know it.

    Shut the fuck up.

  117. 117
    Darrell says:

    Face it, MacBeth is a right-blogistan phenomenon.

    He was #2 on the technorati search list at that time. I note that you don’t acknowledge the Left Coast citation either. Those aren’t the only leftwing citations either. Admit it – Jessie MacBeth was a hero to many on the left, because you agreed with his “message”.

  118. 118
    demimondian says:

    You forget — it’s a jackalope. We need to be deflected from the real issues, here, so the propaganda merchants in right-blogistan concoct a new distractor. I wonder — have any cute white kids disappeared in the last few days?

  119. 119
    ppGaz says:

    but a number of examples of those on the left ridiculing the idea that these alleged atrocities are merely “a few bad apples”.. they are actually trying to smear the entire military

    Can you point out those posts? I don’t seem to find them.

  120. 120
    demimondian says:

    Who, boy, howdy! Darrell’s mounted his new jackalope, and it’s a b*cking bronco!

    John, why do you buy into stories like that without doing some basic fact checking?

  121. 121
    Davebo says:

    why do you buy into stories like that without doing some basic fact checking?

    Because that bitch Sheehan refuses to speak publicly anymore.

    It’s a withdrawal thing I guess.

  122. 122
    Darrell says:

    Can you point out those posts? I don’t seem to find them.

    I’ll give you the first one. Find the others yourself as I’m not your personal research service

    RSA Says:

    What happened to the “a few bad apples” explanation? Odds-on favorite, in my opinion.

    May 26th, 2006 at 11:30 am

    Jackalope, right you dishonest vermin?

  123. 123
    ppGaz says:

    Because that bitch Sheehan refuses to speak publicly anymore.

    THAT is funny.

  124. 124
    ppGaz says:

    Jackalope, right you dishonest vermin?

    Eh? Is that directed at me? I’m not the one calling jackalope on you here.

    However, your RSA example fails. The post did not “smear the entire military” which is what you are claiming.

    It criticized the “few bad apples” explanation. Bad apples and bad military are not mutually exclusive, but more importantly, they are not the only choices here.

    The Murtha explanation, which is that we’ve created an insane situation for these kids to handle over there and while that doesn’t excuse what happened, neither does blaming the shooters and walking away adequately explain what happened …. strikes me as being the closest to reality. He defends the troops without defending what they did, and he in no way “smears” the military.

    I can’t see that RSA is excluding either that, or any other, explanation with his post. Your example fails and your claim is, as usual, pulled directly out of your ass.

    Back to you, Darrell.

  125. 125
    Punchy says:

    From msnbc:

    The Marine Corps initially reported 15 deaths and said they were caused by a roadside bomb and an ensuing firefight with insurgents. A separate investigation is seeking to determine if Marines lied to cover up the killings

    This seems, to common sense, a no-brainer. And isn’t lying in and of itself a crime in the military? False reports and such?

  126. 126
    jg says:

    ust like on this very thread you’ll find not one, but a number of examples of those on the left ridiculing the idea that these alleged atrocities are merely “a few bad apples”.. they are actually trying to smear the entire military and the entire war with this.

    This is why we will never fix the problem in this country. I wasn’t smearing the military you worthless fuck. I wasn’t smearing the war. If you could, for a second, pretend you didn’t have to approach every word written as though it might contain subversive subliminal messages, you’d be able to cmprehend when the blame was laid soley at the feet of those who started this stupid war. Not at those fighting it or at the very concept of war. Only at the idiots who ‘planned’ it and continue to run it.

  127. 127
    ppGaz says:

    Punchy, I read the line as meaning that the Marines involved in the incident lied to cover up the killings.

    That hardly qualifies as a massive military coverup. It’s just standard behavior for people accused of crimes. Lying about a crime is hardly a new thing, or military, or related to the war.

    Were you expecting the people in charge that night to step forward and say, “Well, we snapped and shot up a house full of civilians” while extending their hands for the handcuffs?

    Jesus.

  128. 128
    Darrell says:

    This is why we will never fix the problem in this country. I wasn’t smearing the military you worthless fuck

    I’m sorry shit for brains, did I quote you or address you in any way? No?

  129. 129
    Davebo says:

    Let’s cover this slowly PPG, try to keep up.

    Yes, the marines lied. It’s obvious now that the victims weren’t killed by an IED.

    But once the authorities were informed that the Marines had lied what did they do?

    Dutifully swallowed the second version of events the Marines offered and dropped it.

    The first coverup could be seen as just a small group of Marines lying.

    But accepting their second version of events without question is as idiotic as your pretzel logic defense here.

  130. 130
    p.lukasiak says:

    Hint to you asshole: You really ought to try a different approach than the strawman-a-minute tactic. I never made any such argument, and you know it.

    fuck you dickhead. I said there was a six month coverup. You went apeshit on me for saying it.

    Now you are denying it?

    Learn how to accept losing an argument more graciously….

  131. 131
    ppGaz says:

    But accepting their second version of events without question is as idiotic as your pretzel logic defense here.

    “Accepting … without question” is entirely your construct, and entirely your strawman. I never made any such assertion. Cut the crap.

    I said, and say again, that there is no basis for claiming some sort of conspiratorial coverup here. When I see evidence for it, I’ll say so.

  132. 132
    Andrew says:

    Admit it – Jessie MacBeth was a hero to many on the left, because you agreed with his “message”.

    Hot damn! Somebody get this MacBeth kids a few hundred thousand pills of Oxycontin so the right will also start apologizing for him.

  133. 133
    ppGaz says:

    fuck you dickhead. I said there was a six month coverup. You went apeshit on me for saying it.

    Now you are denying it?

    What the fuck are you talking about, you lying piece of feces?

    I said to you that there was no “six month coverup” and your saying that there was does not make it so. The facts don’t support the claim. A denial by the people on the ground that there was an inappropriate shooting does not constitute a “coverup,” it’s a defense. Whether the defense stands or not, remains to be seen. But there’s no evidence of any big coverup here, and you just don’t have the balls to admit it, because you can’t admit that you shot your mouth off and pulled the thing out of your ass, which you did, and are still doing.

    You’re a stupid asshole and if this were my blog, I’d ban your disnonest ass in a heartbeat.

  134. 134
    Punchy says:

    Were you expecting the people in charge that night to step forward and say, “Well, we snapped and shot up a house full of civilians” while extending their hands for the handcuffs?

    Uh….yeah. Democracy functions best when the gov’t doesn’t lie (see: WMD claims). So yeah, I fully expect the military to admit a mistake. Isn’t this why there’s so much disconnect in America today about the war? Americans can’t figure out the roots of this insugency; the reason the Iraqis don’t seem to want to fight anyone but themselves and solidiers. It’s partially because we (allegedly) offed whole families for sport–but we never hear this b/c the Pentagon tells us it was a roadside bomb.

    As for a coverup, I didn’t imply one. But since the Pentagon is in charge of the military, and they’re the ones peddling false stories, it would appear as though there was indeed a covering up of the truth. You’re going to reply that the Pentagon was only reporting what it’s on-the-field reports said, so they weren’t knowingly lying, etc, etc. That’s where I disagree with you; I smell nefarious malfeasance.

  135. 135
    p.lukasiak says:

    Me:

    Hint to ppgaz…. just because a coverup proves unsuccessful doesn’t mean that one did not occur

    ppgaz:

    Hint to you asshole: You really ought to try a different approach than the strawman-a-minute tactic. I never made any such argument, and you know it.

    ppgaz:

    Lukasiak, shut up. Really. You glibly shot your mouth off about a six-month coverup. Your post is right there for all to see.

    There was no six-month coverup.

    YOU WERE WRONG.

    now, admittedly “Lukasiak shut up” doesn’t constitute much of an “argument”, but for ppgaz to claim that he “never made that argument” is a tad much….

  136. 136
    p.lukasiak says:

    A denial by the people on the ground that there was an inappropriate shooting does not constitute a “coverup,” it’s a defense.

    have you been studying argumentation with Libby’s legal team and Luskin?

  137. 137
    Punchy says:

    But there’s no evidence of any big coverup here

    How can you say this with a straight face knowing the military changed its version of said events THREE times? Why, after finding out that “roadside bomb” was inaccurate, did the NOT thus uncover that Marines were slaughtering people? Why did they move to “firefight” without investigating what happened when they realized the first version of the story was wrong?

    There’s simply no way to explain why, when told their “bomb” version was wrong, they declined to investigate and just changed the story, unless someone didn’t want the real story to be investigated. Cover up.

  138. 138
    ppGaz says:

    Nice job at diversion. You are deliberately mixing “the military” up with the people involved in the actual incident. Those people are not going to admit that they are guilty of a crime, and nobody should expect them to.

    How that extrapolates to “the military” is all in your imagination.

    What really sucks here is that you guys are acting as if the way this story moved and made its way here is the important issue. It’s not, it’s not important at all. I heard about it March, some people heard about this week. So what? Who the fuck cares? The important issue here is what happened, and why. But some of you fuckheads are intent on turning this into some kind of big “military coverup” story so that you can get up your soapboxes about it. You are doing that without the facts to support the claim, and at an inappropriate time, and in an inappropriate way. You are doing it in a way that injures the rightful “lefty” argument here, and the larger lefty position here in general. You are doing it just because you can.

    Like I said way upstream, it’s a stupid argument, it’s counterproductive, it’s dishonest, and you should shut the fuck up about it. It’s of no value, and the cost of waiting for information here is zero.

    You guys are an embarassment to the left here, and I am ashamed to be associated with your bullshit.

  139. 139
    D. Mason says:

    but for ppgaz to claim that he “never made that argument” is a tad much…

    His over the top insults and silly pretzel logic are part of what makes this blog fun to read. Put him and darrell together and it’s clearly amore. Or self love, you make the call.

  140. 140
    ppGaz says:

    Why, after finding out that “roadside bomb” was inaccurate, did the NOT thus uncover that Marines were slaughtering people? Why did they move to “firefight” without investigating what happened when they realized the first version of the story was wrong?

    There’s simply no way to explain why

    Sure there is, it’s called confusion, ambiguity in stories. It always happens in big complicated stories. There may be ten more versions before we have all the facts. That’s the way the world works. Always has, always will. The it DOESN’T work is all the participants rush up to a CNN microphone and spill their guts about the story and, if you can imagine such a stupid thing, which you probably can because you are stupid enough to, all these stories would match each other to a tee.

    No, it takes a lot of time to get to the details and piece together a story like this. Shit, they’ve been working on the Jefferson case for 18 fucking months and still don’t have it all together. And that’s just a simple bribe situation.

    Get off your high horse and shut the fuck up. You are a goddammed embarassment.

  141. 141
    McNulty says:

    You guys are an embarassment to the left here, and I am ashamed to be associated with your bullshit.

    Uncle Karl is always looking for new people over here on the dark side. I’ll even teach you the secret VRWC handshake, and i’ll let you skip any “Old-School” style initiations.

  142. 142
    tBone says:

    I’m sorry shit for brains, did I quote you or address you in any way? No?

    See, Darrell, this is the problem when you constantly attack “The Left” as some monolithic entity. Some people take it personally when they’re called “dishonest vermin” by association. Maybe you could tone down the hysterical rhetoric if you don’t want people to respond in kind. Just a thought.

  143. 143
    p.lukasiak says:

    Nice job at diversion. You are deliberately mixing “the military” up with the people involved in the actual incident.

    nice try, but it was “the military” spokespeople who kept announcing the new story….

  144. 144
    Davebo says:

    You guys are an embarassment to the left here, and I am ashamed to be associated with your bullshit.

    Right… There was no coverup. The Marines just “misremembered” what happened, twice, and no one questioned that until Time magazine forced them to.

    I imagine someone with that type of logic spends a lot of time embarrased.

  145. 145
    ppGaz says:

    Lukasiak, I said this to you a year ago, and I’ll say it again; You are BY FAR the most dishonest motherfucker who ever walked this blog, righty or lefty.

    You are a stupid, dishonest fuck and I don’t mind telling you so. I hope you rot in the special hell reserved for lying sonsofbitches like you.

    I call on every righty here to ride your dishonest ass like a rented mule on this point and every point you ever pull out of your ass from this day forward.

  146. 146
    ppGaz says:

    it was “the military” spokespeople who kept announcing the new story

    Stories are usually told as they are believed to be at the time. With time, facts emerge and stories change.

    That’s not conspiracy, you incredibly stupid fuck. That’s just the way things go. You’re a fucking liar.

  147. 147
    John S. says:

    From the Jessie MacBeth link John provided:

    Little Green Football commentators have discerned thru birth records that this fellow’s birthname is Al Zaid. Looks like another ‘patriotic’ Muslim.

    How dare anyone characterize right-wingers – particualrly LGFers – as witch-hunting bigots. Honestly, where do people get this stuff from?

  148. 148
    McNulty says:

    Hey, Lukasiak lives in Philly. At least you’re 2500 miles away from him. I have to share a city with the twit.

  149. 149
    Davebo says:

    Boy.

    Point out that someone is just plain idiotic and they suddenly bring the RAPTURE down on your ass.

  150. 150
    p.lukasiak says:

    Nice job at diversion. You are deliberately mixing “the military” up with the people involved in the actual incident.

    no, its called deliberately ignoring the evidence that you have, and trying to find a plausible explanation that keeps the lid on the scandal.

    The people of Haditha said there was a massacre. A follow-up team made it clear that the killers story was a big fat lie, and even had a videotape of the aftermath of the murders that confirmed that a massacre had taken place.

    ….but the Marine Corps didn’t investigate. And changed its story three times — three separate set of lies — rather than tell the truth for six fucking months.

  151. 151
    ppGaz says:

    Right… There was no coverup.

    I said, and say now, that there is no evidence to support the claim of a big coverup. When I see it I’ll say so.

    All you have to do to be 100% right about this is say “Let’s wait until we have all of the facts, or at least all of them that we can get, and then judge.”

    That’s it. A perfectly reasonable, logical thing to do.

    Or you can stamp your feet and keep insisting that I’m an asshole for suggesting it. And making a fucking ass of yourself.

  152. 152
    p.lukasiak says:

    ppgaz needs to get back on his meds…. fast.

    He says he never said something. I provide the quote and the link. He goes batshit.

    strange days….

    (or is someone spoofing using ppgaz’s name? that would explain this entirely irrational behavior!)

  153. 153
    ppGaz says:

    The people of Haditha said there was a massacre

    You continue to be the most dishonest motherfucker ever to walk these pages.

    “The people of Haditha?” If some people in Iraq claim there was a massacre, then any information to the contrary is a coverup? In that case EVERY SINGLE DEATH IN IRAQ IN THE LAST THREE YEARS has been a massacre, and covered up, you unfathomably dishonest prick.

    How many of those kinds of allegations do you suppose have been made in the last three years? Thousands? How many of them are true? How long does it take, and what process must be followed, to ascertain the whole truth? You sure as fucking hell don’t know, do you?

  154. 154
    Pb says:

    For those who are confused about what is and is not a military coverup, here’s a primer:

    Military coverup: “relations between American soldiers and the Vietnamese people are excellent.” — Colin Powell, Dec. 13, 1968

    Not a military coverup:

    In its initial statement to the media, the Marine Corps said the Iraqi civilians were killed either by an insurgent bomb or by crossfire between Marines and insurgents.

    But after Time magazine obtained pictures showing dead women and children and quoted Iraqis who said the attack was unprovoked, the Marine Corps backtracked on its explanation and called for an investigation.

    I guess I’m a bit confused too. Could be worse?

  155. 155
    Davebo says:

    What you are obtusely ignoring in all your rants about “waiting for the facts” is the crux of the biscuit here.

    The only reason we can expect to learn the facts is because Time forced the DOD’s hand. Time didn’t report ANYTHING to the DOD that they didn’t already know. They simply clued them in to the fact that they too knew. Thus forcing the DOD to abandon it’s plans to sweep all this under the rug.

    But hey, you’re doing a heckuva job PPGaz

  156. 156
    p.lukasiak says:

    I said, and say now, that there is no evidence to support the claim of a big coverup.

    ppgaz… its one thing to say that there is not incontrovertible proof of a big coverup.

    But “no evidence”? I mean, I may or may not be the biggest asshole on this blog, but “no evidence”?

  157. 157
    Davebo says:

    Military officials say Marine Corp photos taken immediately after the incident show many of the victims were shot at close range, in the head and chest, execution-style. One photo shows a mother and young child bent over on the floor as if in prayer, shot dead, said the officials, who spoke to NBC News on condition of anonymity because the investigation hasn’t been completed.

    But despite having these pictures, the DOD stuck to it’s story that they were killed in a firefight.

    But hey, there’s absolutely no evidence whatsoever of a coverup.

  158. 158
    ppGaz says:

    The only reason we can expect to learn the facts is because Time forced the DOD’s hand.

    Prove it, asshole. Prove it. Provide a single shred of evidence that that is the case … and remember, before you get started, that you are out to prove a negative. That something didn’t or couldn’t have happened.

    How colossally stupid can you be? Because you don’t know something, you will assume whatever you want and then argue the truth of your assumption until you are blue in the face? Do you KNOW who reported what to whom? What reporting or investigative decisions were made, by whom, and why? What made this allegation stand out from the possibly hundreds or even thousands like it? How do you know that?

    You’re making shit up. And between you and the fuckhead Lukasiak, a guy that every honest lefty should run away from as fast as his feet will take him, trust me … he is that toxic and that bad … anyway, between the two of you, you’ve turned this story completely away from the important realities of it …the Murtha account, if you will … and made it into a pissing contest over a putative conspriatorial coverup for which you have ZERO ACTUAL EVIDENCE at this point in time. You are doing what all conspiracy monger shitheads do, which is to dive into the cracks between facts and acounts and try to leverage some big evil pile of shit out of it, that you can stand on top of and rant from.

  159. 159
    ppGaz says:

    I may or may not be the biggest asshole on this blog

    Heh. That ship sailed a long time ago, pissant.

  160. 160
    p.lukasiak says:

    How many of those kinds of allegations do you suppose have been made in the last three years? Thousands? How many of them are true? How long does it take, and what process must be followed, to ascertain the whole truth? You sure as fucking hell don’t know, do you?

    I don’t know how many such accusations have been made. But hopefully, there are precious few such accusations that have been made where the followup team comes in and says “The story told my the Marines involved is bullshit, and we have video that show every indication that defenseless people were slaughtered in cold blood.”

    Perhaps when you get your prescription renewed, you’ll recognize the distinction.

  161. 161
    D. Mason says:

    EVERY SINGLE DEATH IN IRAQ IN THE LAST THREE YEARS has been a massacre

    Wow ppGaz you really hit the nail on the head with that one. You won’t hear me say that often either.

  162. 162
    Davebo says:

    PPGaz,

    The fact that you are sputtering like an LGF commenter pretty much says all one needs to say about your total lack of intellecutal honesty.

    It must be eating you up inside eh? At one point you could have just shut up, but now you’re far to emotionally invested in this fairy tale you’ve built and have no choice but to keep digging.

  163. 163
    p.lukasiak says:

    Prove it, asshole. Prove it. Provide a single shred of evidence that that is the case … and remember, before you get started, that you are out to prove a negative. That something didn’t or couldn’t have happened.

    that’s it. gaz has to be spoofing. I’ve read too many of his other posts to believe he could be this stupid (I mean, he cited the Time article that states:

    In January, after TIME presented military officials in Baghdad with the Iraqis’ accounts of the Marines’ actions, the U.S. opened its own investigation….

    sure looks like a shread of evidence to me….

    (does this mean you really like me, gaz? That your hostility is just part of your spoof?)

  164. 164
    ppGaz says:

    The fact that you are sputtering like an LGF

    I have no idea what that means, but yeah, there is nothing more unreasonable than this:

    “Let’s wait for the facts to emerge and later judge whether there was a coverup or not. Meanwhile, the facts of the incident are much more important.”

    Yeah, that’s just BATSHIT CRAZY, isn’t it, you dishonest sack of shit?

    Nothing BATSHIT CRAZIER than waiting for facts, when a perfectly good outta-your-ass blog post needs to be made RIGHT NOW.

    Fuck you, man, and the horse you rode in on. Really, just fuck you.

  165. 165
    ppGaz says:

    sure looks like a shread of evidence to me

    Evidence of what, you liar? Did you address my points? up to that time, what reports were made, by whom and to whom,and saying what? What investigative decisions had been made, by whom, and for what reasons?

    You have no fucking idea. Until you do, you are talking out your ass. Simple as that.

  166. 166

    My Lai in Iraq….

    From Hot Air: I meant to post about this last week when Murtha was making the rounds but I got caught up in other things. Yeah, it’s awful and par for the course that he’d pronounce the Marines guilty before…

  167. 167
    Kevin K says:

    “2.) Jessie MacBeth is still a lying, psychotic douchebag.

    3.) It should be pointed out that if you have 100,000 people, a certain number of them are going to turn out to be lawless murderers. Even with Marines.”

    2) It should be pointed out that if you have 400 million people, a certain number of them are going to turn out to be shameless liars looking for attention or are mentally unstable. Even with Liberals.

    3) The involved marines are still murdering psychotic douchebags.

    John, it seems odd to me that you show more anger for an idiot with no power than for people who have committed horrible atrocities.

  168. 168
    Davebo says:

    Here’s your facts PP..

    Also killed were Younis’s daughters, Nour, 14, who was shot in the head; Seba, 10, who was hit in the chest; Zeinab, 5, shot in the chest and stomach; and Aisha, 3, who was shot in the chest. Hoda Yassin, a visiting relative, was also killed”

    And with video and still images of these dead children IN THEIR OWN HOMES the DOD goes before the public and said they died in a firefight as collateral damage.

    Cures all youi want dude. It adds to the parody you’ve become on this thread. No evidence at all, not even a shred.

    Oh wait, I guess I was referring to your integrity.

  169. 169
    p.lukasiak says:

    Spoofmeister gaz

    Evidence of what, you liar? Did you address my points? up to that time, what reports were made, by whom and to whom,and saying what? What investigative decisions had been made, by whom, and for what reasons?

    Time article previously cited by der Spoofmeister:

    In January, after TIME presented military officials in Baghdad with the Iraqis’ accounts of the Marines’ actions, the U.S. opened its own investigation,

    just to make sure you understand, I bolded the words “after” and “opened”.

  170. 170
    Punchy says:

    How many of those kinds of allegations do you suppose have been made in the last three years? Thousands? How many of them are true?

    Those CRAZY Iraqis…I tell ya…they just go around throwing out assassination allegations every day. Must be comedy gold over there.

  171. 171
    D. Mason says:

    How many of those kinds of allegations do you suppose have been made in the last three years? Thousands? *How many of them are true?*

    That seems to be the million dollar question huh?

  172. 172
    ppGaz says:

    just to make sure you understand, I bolded the words “after” and “opened”.

    Nice try, I didn’t misunderstand the first time.

    My question to you is, what reports were made PRIOR TO that time, by whom, and to what effect? What investigative or command decisions fell from those? Who made those decisions, and why?

    Unless you know the answers to those questions, and you don’t, then you don’t know a fucking thing of relevance to our question here.

    But as I said before and will now say again to you and Davebo and anyone else stupid enough to try to ride this worthless mule …. you can avoid the entire problem, you can BE RIGHT, you can PRESERVE your right to come back later and deride an actual, probable coverup, and you can END THIS ARGUMENT without losing anything of value, siply my making the following reasonable statement:

    “Let’s wait for the facts to emerge and later judge whether there was a coverup or not. Meanwhile, the facts of the incident are much more important.”

    That’s it. That’s what you are railing against, you stupid asshole. Not me, not some strawman, not some big scary blogmonster. Just that simple statement. That’s your enemy.

    So in addition to the complete ignominy of fighting tooth and nail against that reasonable position, you also have the distinction of completely queering the real issue here, which is, essentially, the Murtha Position as stated this week.

  173. 173
    ppGaz says:

    That seems to be the million dollar question huh?

    Questions are cheap here. Answers are hard to get.

  174. 174
    Punchy says:

    I said, and say now, that there is no evidence to support the claim of a big coverup.

    That’s why the military is invstigating the possiblity of a coverup. Because there’s no evidence of one. None.

  175. 175
    p.lukasiak says:

    My question to you is, what reports were made PRIOR TO that time, by whom, and to what effect? What investigative or command decisions fell from those? Who made those decisions, and why?

    well, to start with, there is the after-action report filed by a different unit, which contradicted the account of the killer Marines.

    Now keeping in mind that the people of Haditha were reporting the cold-blooded murder of innocents…..

    EITHER:
    The Marine Corps ignored the contradictions between the two miliary reports, despite the accusations of the people of Haditha which were consistent with the “other unit’s” report (i.e. engaged in a cover-up)

    OR

    The Marine Corps looked into the contradictions, and discovered that the killer Marines were lying, and only “opened” and investigation “after” confronted with the evidence of a massacre by Time in January. (i.e. engaged in a cover-up)

    What’s your theory? That the Marine Corps has been on top of this from the get-go, and its taken six months to realize that women and children shot in the back at close range is not in accordance with the “rules of war?”

  176. 176
    Punchy says:

    well, to start with, there is the after-action report filed by a different unit, which contradicted the account of the killer Marines.

    This may be a dumb question, but was the “different unit” also Marines? Do Army soliders and Marines fight along side each other? Do they mix in combat, or stay separate? Thanks.

  177. 177
    Anderson says:

    Can we take a moment aside from the Thread’s Biggest Asshole Award to contemplate the quote from Davebo?

    Also killed were Younis’s daughters, Nour, 14, who was shot in the head; Seba, 10, who was hit in the chest; Zeinab, 5, shot in the chest and stomach; and Aisha, 3, who was shot in the chest.

    Anybody got kids? Able to imagine your wife and kids being broken in upon by psychotic Marines, yelled at, forced to the ground, and shot dead?

    Heartbreaking.

  178. 178
    Davebo says:

    Anderson,

    I don’t have kids, but I don’t need to to realize what a horrible thing that must have been. I think it’s a pretty universal understanding.

    I don’t care that your buddy was just killed. I don’t care that you got screwed and have to fight this idiotic war 3 years into it.

    You shot a 3 year old in the chest. Waive the death penalty and let these sick fucks live with that behind bars for the rest of their lives.

  179. 179
    ppGaz says:

    That’s why the military is invstigating the possiblity of a coverup. Because there’s no evidence of one.

    How do you know that that isn’t standard procedure? An Internal Affairs sort of thing? Regardless, how do you know what actual facts or allegations are driving that activity?

    Unless I am missing something, you don’t. You don’t really have a clue.

  180. 180
    p.lukasiak says:

    Anybody got kids? Able to imagine your wife and kids being broken in upon by psychotic Marines, yelled at, forced to the ground, and shot dead?

    according to a nine-year old survivor in the first house attacked by the Marines, the only reason she and her brother survived is because other adults in the house shielded them — she was wounded, but survived.

  181. 181
    ppGaz says:

    EITHER:
    The Marine Corps ignored the contradictions between the two miliary reports, despite the accusations of the people of Haditha which were consistent with the “other unit’s” report (i.e. engaged in a cover-up)

    OR

    The Marine Corps looked into the contradictions, and discovered that the killer Marines were lying, and only “opened” and investigation “after” confronted with the evidence of a massacre by Time in January. (i.e. engaged in a cover-up)

    I don’t agree that those are the only two choices here … at all. An investigation could have been opened, but proceeding too slowly, or stuck, or the investigation could have been pushed up to a higher level and started over .. there are umpteen possibilities …but in the interest of time, I’ll stipulate to them solely for the purposes of this subthread and to move on to your next point ….

    What’s your theory? That the Marine Corps has been on top of this from the get-go, and its taken six months to realize that women and children shot in the back at close range is not in accordance with the “rules of war?”

    You just can’t help yourself, can you? There is only one coherent thought there, and that is “What’s your theory?”

    I have already told you:

    “Let’s wait for the facts to emerge and later judge whether there was a coverup or not. Meanwhile, the facts of the incident are much more important.”

    Until I have enough of the right kind of facts, I am not formulating a “theory.” I don’t find it useful to do so, in fact, I find it harmful. I find it dishonest. I find it counterproductive. I find it arrogant. I find it manipulative. I find it all the things I find about the way the “other side” approaches these things.

    But mostly, I find it useless. People are dead, and as Murtha points out, our people are still over there in shit up to their butts. That’s a real problem I can worry about. If there was a criminal coverup here, time will expose that, and we’ll deal with it then. That’s not the important issue now, and it won’t be no matter how loudly you stamp your feet and shout otherwise.

  182. 182
    RSA says:

    On “a few bad apples” (though I haven’t kept up here): ppGaz covered most of the bases concerning whether ridiculing this explanation is smearing the entire military. It’s not. I’ll add one more point. I think that Abu Ghraib made this explanation a non-starter, in that it wasn’t just used to say that the abusive soldiers were not representative, but also to argue against holding people responsible higher in the chain of command.

  183. 183
    ppGaz says:

    in that it wasn’t just used to say that the abusive soldiers were not representative, but also to argue against holding people responsible higher in the chain of command

    The point is well taken.

  184. 184
    Davebo says:

    and it won’t be no matter how loudly you stamp your feet and shout otherwise.

    Hilarious! From the guy who didn’t stamp his feet and shout but instead offered these reasoned gems.

    Prove it, asshole. Prove it

    That’s not conspiracy, you incredibly stupid fuck. That’s just the way things go. You’re a fucking liar.

    What the fuck are you talking about, you lying piece of feces?

    And oddly, I can’t find your comment now where you were explaining about that “special place in hell” we were all going to be doomed to because we gagged on the broom handle but you managed to choke it down.

  185. 185
    Llelldorin says:

    Just out of curiosity, for those of us without military experience–what happens to “after-action reports” after they’re filed? Is there someone that filters through them, looking for red flags? Or, as in most of the civilian world, are they just thrown into some massive database and then ignored unless someone specifically requests them?

    If it’s the latter, it’s fairly easy to see how the Corps could have ended up in shifting-explanation hell, until someone finally saw enough pieces of evidence to get past, “the media’s just confused again,” and start acting decisively. You could go for months asking the original unit for clarification of its initial report in response to queries, until you finally smelled a rat and started pulling everything, including the reports of other units.

  186. 186
    ppGaz says:

    Hilarious! From the guy who

    Oh great, you are down to making “your style is poopy” arguments now.

    Yawn.

    Let’s review the facts.

    “Big coverup!” is outside the boundaries of the known facts and timelines here. We have precious little inside information to go on. We have all the time in the world to find out. And we have plenty of more important things to focus on meanwhile.

    That’s the big scary issue you are fighting, dumbshit.

    All the rest is just theatrics, which I am about a thousand million times better at than you are. So let me know when you’ve had enough.

    Or, keep insisting that we have to declare a Big Coverup right now! Whatever bakes your fucking cookie, Mister Darrell of the Left.

  187. 187
    Davebo says:

    You can call it “style” if you like.

    But I think most recognize it from the locker room in 10th grade. If not from the playground in preschool.

    But maybe I’m wrong and you’re just spoofing us.

  188. 188
    Davebo says:

    And we have plenty of more important things to focus on meanwhile.

    Yeah, why get all riled up about a bunch of kids being murdered execution style.

    We gotta start getting ready for the next season of American Idol!

  189. 189

    I want to thank ppGaz for filling in the role of Darrell in this thread. Without his expert acting ability, this thread might never have made it past 50 posts.

  190. 190
    Punchy says:

    But maybe I’m wrong and you’re just spoofing us

    When does he reveal this? Is it at a certain time, after a certain number of posts, or when he fills up the f-bomb quota?

  191. 191
    Pooh says:

    ppG,

    I think you are overstating your case by saying “there is no evidence of a coverup”. At the very least, there is circumstantial evidence. You may or may not find it convincing, (I’m agnostic on this point as yet – there are plausible narratives either way supported by the available information) which is your right, but let’s leave the pure idiocy to the pure idiots.

  192. 192
    ppGaz says:

    But maybe I’m wrong and you’re just spoofing us.

    Or maybe you lost this argument and now you are whining about how mean I was or how rude. That’s the usual approach of the loser around here. What next, a list of the profanities I used to whip your ass?

    Write it here __________.

    To this I say to you in the most nurturing way, fuck you. You were wrong, and you are still wrong, and I’m right.

  193. 193
    ppGaz says:

    Yeah, why get all riled up about a bunch of kids being murdered execution style.

    Jesus, talk about missing the FUCKING POINT. I don’t think there’s even a word for it on that scale.

    That is the point, idiot. Dead people, and overstressed soldiers, and why they are in that situation. In short, the Murtha point. Not whether you can string together a series of maybes into a BIG COVERUP rant.

    Jesus. Buy a fucking clue, man. Really.

  194. 194
    John Cole says:

    For the pinheads and DOUGJ, who despite agreeing with the bulk of this post and my comments here in the comment section, still do nothing but attempt to flay me alive over the Jesse comment, here is what he has to do with this- HE FABRICATED VERY SIMILAR FUCKING CHARGES.

    So even if these Marines did this, he is still a lying douchebag, and I want to make sure any attempts to resurrect his character fail (“Well, his specific story was a lie, but the main thrust was true.”- I can hear it now.)

    And DougJ, your snark is cute every now and then, but lately, all you seem to do is intentionally pretend like I am saying things I am not. I know you aren’t a total moron (lately I have my doubts, but have chalked most of your pointed attacks to you just being an asshole), because to pull off your snark you have to have some wits about you, but you know damned well why I said it, and it was not because of “how much power Jessie Macbeth has.” Once again, it was your wisecracking that really got the assholish behavior directed back at me again. Thanks, dick. I am glad to provide you a forum.

    And one more thing- if you folks keep lumping me in with the Malkins and the Hewitts, I am going to start pretending you are all exactly the same as the dumbest diarist at the DU.

  195. 195
    ppGaz says:

    I think you are overstating your case by saying “there is no evidence of a coverup”. At the very least, there is circumstantial evidence. You may or may not find it convincing, (I’m agnostic on this point as yet – there are plausible narratives either way supported by the available information) which is your right, but let’s leave the pure idiocy to the pure idiots.

    My case, which I am not about to let you misstate for me, is that it’s too early to enter that judgment, and more importantly, it’s unneccessary and unhelpful to do so.

    You’re agnostic as yet? Well, then by all means, jump on the Lukasiak Bandwagon and help him beat his useless, stupid and destructive Coverup Drum as loudly as possible.

    Don’t suggest that my reasonable “wait for facts” approach might be the most sane alternative. That would be too … too what, exactly? Too embarrassing that you waited all this time to notice that I was right about this all fucking day?

  196. 196
    ppGaz says:

    I feel left out. I never heard of Jesse Macbeth. Does he thing that Lukasiak is a stupid fuckhead?

  197. 197
    Pooh says:

    HE FABRICATED VERY SIMILAR FUCKING CHARGES.

    I honestly didn’t know that (but considering the first time I heard of him was yesterday, that isn’t surprising) – his inclusion makes much more sense now.

    And, FWIW, very good to have you back posting, JC.

  198. 198
    Pooh says:

    You’re agnostic as yet? Well, then by all means, jump on the Lukasiak Bandwagon and help him beat his useless, stupid and destructive Coverup Drum as loudly as possible.

    Don’t suggest that my reasonable “wait for facts” approach might be the most sane alternative. That would be too … too what, exactly? Too embarrassing that you waited all this time to notice that I was right about this all fucking day?

    It’s the same thing, ass.

    “It’s too early to call it a coverup” is not the same thing as “IT WASN’T A COVERUP NANNY NANNY” you’ve done a fair bit of both here. Unless you are trying to get P.Luk to be hysterical which, and I’ll quote you here:

    is counterproductive to the political cause you think you are representing here.

  199. 199
    D. Mason says:

    HE FABRICATED VERY SIMILAR FUCKING CHARGES.

    Or maybe what he has to do with it is that his story could be used to cast doubt on these current charges. Hmmm makes one wonder.

  200. 200
    John Cole says:

    Wonder all you want- it isn’t what I am doing, and I get a little tired of being accused of doing nefarious things when I try to be pretty straightforward.

  201. 201
    ppGaz says:

    “It’s too early to call it a coverup” is not the same thing as “IT WASN’T A COVERUP NANNY NANNY” you’ve done a fair bit of both here.

    Nope. What I’ve done is the former, accompanied by “your example-factlet-thing is not enough to sway me from the “too early” assertion. That is not the same thing as saying “there absolutely was no coverup.” If I said that, I misspoke, because what I meant was, these jackasses… and now that has to include you, Poop, don’t know and don’t have enough information to make the call.

    But even that is not close to the important point here. While you focus on who said what and manage to get it wrong, you miss the big picture as usual. The big picture is WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU THINK WE ARE GAINING BY SCREAMING COVERUP AT THIS JUNCTURE? What the fuck? Really, what the living fuck? What is the point?

    It’s classic Lukasiak, to begin with. He’s itching to leverage this story into the biggest rant he can muster. By doing so, he harms everybody, especially on the left. He’ll give the Darrells and the TallDaves all the amunition they need to paint lefties as damned fools when it comes to defense and the military .. because, if Lukasiak is any indicator, they are right about that.

    Now, get back to beating Lukasiak’s fucking drum. Here, you need a bigger drumstick.

  202. 202
    Punchy says:

    Dr. Cole;

    About MacBeth–I think while his specific story was a lie, the main thrust was true. Discuss.

  203. 203
    jg says:

    About MacBeth—I think while his specific story was a lie, the main thrust was true. Discuss.

    So he wasn’t on the grassy knole?

  204. 204
    Perry Como says:

    I never heard of Jesse Macbeth.

    He’s a VP front runner for 2008.

  205. 205
    D. Mason says:

    when I try to be pretty straightforward.

    You’re a professor right? Surely an educated man such as yourself could have seen that such an offhand comment about Macbeth would muddy the waters of a very sensative issue. That leads me to believe that you chose to flog macbeth irrespective of that fact. So maybe it wasn’t intentional muddying of the waters, maybe it was just flippancy, but the results are largely the same.

  206. 206
    ppGaz says:

    He’s a VP front runner for 2008.

    Oh, on the Lukasiak ticket?

  207. 207
    DougJ says:

    John, I’m just keeping you honest and you know it.

    By the way, I’m completely with you and against what P.Lukasiak is saying about the soldiers.

  208. 208
    ppGaz says:

    So maybe it wasn’t intentional muddying of the waters, maybe it was just flippancy, but the results are largely the same.

    Just when I think I could run this blog better in my sleep, along comes a day like this, and I wonder why John (and Tim for that matter) don’t just have us all killed?

    If there is a bigger bunch of wankers on earth, all I can say is, I haven’t found it.

  209. 209
    D. Mason says:

    If there is a bigger bunch of wankers on earth

    That’s pretty fucking rich coming from the arch-bishop of wankerville.

  210. 210
    Punchy says:

    If there is a bigger bunch of wankers on earth, all I can say is, I haven’t found it.

    Try 1600 Penn. Avenue, Wash DC.

  211. 211
    Anderson says:

    And, FWIW, very good to have you back posting, JC

    Seconded. Hope the Martians weren’t too rough with the anal probe. I hate when that happens.

  212. 212
    ppGaz says:

    That’s pretty fucking rich coming from the arch-bishop of wankerville.

    Translation: I was right all fucking day, and this is the best you can come up with?

    Pathetic. Seriously, this happens about once a quarter, and then I realize that the lefty crowd here is a bigger bunch of stiffs that the damned righties.

    What a fucking waste of energy. I invite everyone to go back and read the Murtha transcript from Hardball … I forget the date … but it’s probably still out there … and then realize that Lukasiak and his stupid lapdogs spent all day pushing the Big Coverup Proof By Assertion Rant ….. while Rome burns.

    Absolutely pathetic. The Dems really don’t deserve to win anything this year. Seriously, I’m the longest-established Dem here, and I am quite sincere. They deserve to get their asses handed to them, maybe then they will learn something. If they can’t do better than this when the opposition is literally digging its way to China, then ….

    Big coverup. Jesus H. Christ.

    Bring back TallDave.

  213. 213
    D. Mason says:

    That’s all well and good except for the fact that I haven’t been talking about the “cover-up”. I don’t know as much as most of you about it so it would be silly for me to speculate. Though I would like to point out that this is a blog and you’re acting like it’s a court of law or something. I’ve seen you speculating before and I can’t understand why speculation about this particular issue has you so hot and bothered. But honestly I don’t care about that because if there was a coverup that fact will never see the light of day so it’s moot. No, my issue was with John dropping Jesse Macbeth into this story as if he had some bearing on this.

    So to end my participation for today I will just say: You can take your sanctimony and shove it up your ass… sideways.

  214. 214
    tBone says:

    John deserves a pass on the Macbeth thing. If he has to explain every single thing he posts in excruciating detail just so there’s no possible way anyone could ever misunderstand what he’s saying – well, it would be exactly like what he has to do now. Seriously, give the guy the benefit of the doubt from time to time.

  215. 215
    ppGaz says:

    I’ve seen you speculating before and I can’t understand why speculation about this particular issue has you so hot and bothered. But honestly I don’t care about that because if there was a coverup that fact will never see the light of day so it’s moot.

    Sorry, can’t agree. First, generally if I speculate, I like to say that I’m speculating. I use tipoffs like IMO and AFAIC. If I represent speculation as fact, I fully expect to be called on it and flogged like a mangy dog. I fail to tag speculation sometimes but don’t let the fact that it’s an honest mistake stop anyone from calling me, or anyone else, on it.

    Second, the issue is important. On several levels. For reasons already stated.

    Third, I don’t agree that the whole story will never see the light of day. I think most of it will, and it won’t take as long as My Lai took, either. But in any event, let things happen in the fullness of time. Either way, there is no reason to let the other side prolong this stupid war while this case gets resolved. The war is not about this case. It’s about the circustances that created this case and probably other things we don’t know about. It’s about the shitty situation we’ve put our troops in, as Murtha states. That’s what I consider important here.

  216. 216
    ppGaz says:

    Oh, and lastly, when you see a flame war, unless you really have a dog in the fight, the best thing to do is mind your own damned business and stay out of it.

    Shove that up YOUR ass sideways.

  217. 217
    Brian says:

    God I hate people like you

    Get a grip, man. I’ll pray for you. :)

  218. 218
    Punchy says:

    Shove that up YOUR ass sideways.

    Way to get the last word in. I knew–KNEW–you’d have to end on an insult. The ones that are correct always do.

    They deserve to get their asses handed to them, maybe then they will learn something.

    What we’ve learned is that we’re wrong, and you’re right. Perhaps we can nominate you for office in 2008. Your “fucks”, “idiots”, and ass-shoving encouragement gives you effective and unique campaign rhetoric.

  219. 219
    ppGaz says:

    What we’ve learned is that we’re wrong, and you’re right.

    I have no idea what you’ve learned, and don’t care.

    I was right. So what? You’d prefer that I fingered my chin and wondered “Gee, was I right?”

    WTF? Of course I was right and any eighth grader could have been right on this subject. I deserve no great credit for being right.

    I’ve already stated here multiple times that I am not running for office, and if you don’t like my language, talk to the proprietor. It’s his. I have never used any profanity here that he hasn’t used. Don’t like it? Talk to the management.

    When he outlaws it then I’ll stop using it.

    Until that day, kiss my ass.

  220. 220
    demimondian says:

    By the way, John — good to have you back.

  221. 221
    demimondian says:

    Jesse MacBeth? Wasn’t she the wife of Banquo’s murderer?

  222. 222

    Marines May Face Charges In Unarmed Iraqi Civiliian’s Deaths

    Military investigators have come to a truly sickening conclusion: some members of a Marine-unit with an excellent reputation killed unarmed Iraqi civilians — big and small — and then tried to cover it up, reports

  223. 223

    And one more thing- if you folks keep lumping me in with the Malkins and the Hewitts, I am going to start pretending you are all exactly the same as the dumbest diarist at the DU.

    Where are you getting this nonsense from?

    The only mention of Malkin in this thread was me pointing out hotair is her hate site.

    Anyway… Jessie MacBeth is clearly a spoof. So what’s the big de3al?

  224. 224
    D. Mason says:

    Oh, and lastly, when you see a flame war, unless you really have a dog in the fight, the best thing to do is mind your own damned business and stay out of it.

    Hey that’s good advice except you left out the fact that you interjected yourself into a conversation between myself and John at 5:25pm. I didn’t get into your pathetic flamewar until you invited me. Jackass.

  225. 225
    Andrei says:

    So even if these Marines did this, he is still a lying douchebag, and I want to make sure any attempts to resurrect his character fail.

    I guess the question though is that given the gravity of the situation/charges/upcoming investigation of the Marines story, why does someone like MacBeth matter to be posted in the same breathe as the current abhorrent predicament?

  226. 226
    Kimmitt says:

    Andrei — because the owner of this site self-identifies as belonging to a group of people who would give a shit about MacBeth.

    That’s what makes this such a great place to stop by; there’s this ongoing tension between the fact that the owner, to his credit, is honest enough to admit that we on the left were totally fucking right about 90% of what has happened over the last six years, and the fact that the aforementioned owner has a number of grievances against members of the left, some of which are essentially supportable and some of which are totally out of (ahem) left field.

    Makes for good conversation.

  227. 227
    Anderson says:

    because the owner of this site self-identifies as belonging to a group of people who would give a shit about MacBeth

    Morons? Cole is a self-identified moron? Got a cite for that?

  228. 228
    Brian says:

    Fun to witness you pinkos abandoning MacBeth, a creation of your own group’s not-so-fertile imagination. Does he not represent, in his very words, everything you wish to be true about this war?

    As for Haditha, the press again is caught manufacturing the story’s account. I want these troops, if they indeed committed this crime, to receive every penalty coming their way. But they also gave the press and you invaluable material to undermine this war’s success, and a tool that you can use to manipulate and pry whatever phony narrative you wish in order to achieve it.

  229. 229
    demimondian says:

    Fun to witness you pinkos abandoning MacBeth, a creation of your own group’s not-so-fertile imagination. Does he not represent, in his very words, everything you wish to be true about this war?

    Hey, boy, howdy, look at that there Jackalope! Why, sonny, he’s exactly what I want you to watch — not the failed policies which led to the US being stuck with a monetary and moral debt.

  230. 230
    tBone says:

    Fun to witness you pinkos abandoning MacBeth, a creation of your own group’s not-so-fertile imagination. Does he not represent, in his very words, everything you wish to be true about this war?

    Brian, you’re smarter than this. If you want to get your troll on, you’ve got to pick a relatively fresh thread, not one that already had the mother of all flame wars.

    If you’re serious about unseating Darrell as the official BJ Thread Derailer, this kind of lazy, half-assed work just isn’t going to cut it. Back to Troll School for you, young man.

  231. 231
    ppGaz says:

    not one that already had the mother of all flame wars.

    Oh dear. Hardly “the mother of all flame wars.”

    The mother of all missed points, maybe. It does no good, you see, to hold the Darrells of the Apoligistocracy to any standard of truthiness, when we allow the Lukasiaks of the Left, and a few of his groupies who aren’t paying attention, to employ the same sloppy, fuck-the-facts throw-the-grenade tactics that we expect from the Darrells. The Darrells then rightfully conclude that we are a bunch of hypocrites who pick at factual nits when they’re Darrell’s nits but then settle for garbage when it’s our team’s material. The truth is, Darrell would be right, and we do exactly that.

    The left is correct on the issues, the war, the incompetance of Bush …. we are absolutely right about that stuff. But we have no more integrity at argument time than the looniest righty would be expected to display. And if there is just one issue where it behooves us to be extra careful and extra ethical, it’s the one at the core of this thread. Unless we prefer repeating the Kerry experiment over and over for the next 20 fucking years.

    LBNL, take a look at the info stream coming from this Haditha story. It’s about as unlike a “coverup” as you could imagine. And the idea that an investigative journalist’s story accelerated the movement of the official story or accelerated official response ….. so the fuck what? That’s why we have investigative journalism. The system worked. The pace of the story and investigation are probably not the story here. The story here is the situation our troops are put in, both while they are on the ground in Iraq, and after they get home and have to deal with this shit. This is what happens when you mire the country in a clusterfuck war. That’s what counts here … not whether it took a few extra weeks to get an investigation going.

    If there was a big coverup, then give that story time to develop and let the facts fill in the blanks. Plenty of time for that. Plenty of time, later, for hundreds of stories like this one to take their final shape and for historians to write their books. We don’t need another hyped outrage at this point to achieve the only goal that matters this year … namely, electing a Democrat House of Representatives. That’s the only thing we can do that will really make a big difference in this country for the next two and half years. Keep your eye on the ball. For guidance here, listen to Murtha. He’s got the point on this thing, let him lead it.

    Right now, I need to get back to my Al Maviva seminar on blog posting. I’m getting the length, but I need to work on the density of the content.

  232. 232
    Sine.Qua.Non says:

    Brian Says:

    If anything, we should be putting more military in charge of things, like our schools. Better results from that than taking instruction from panty-waisted, cut-and-run liberals.

    Brian, go do yourself a favor, and fuck off.

  233. 233
    Sine.Qua.Non says:

    John, good article. Glad to see you back to posting, so I take it (you liberal teacher) you are out for the summer?

  234. 234
    tBone says:

    Oh dear. Hardly “the mother of all flame wars.”

    What? I’m the only here that’s not allowed a little hyperbole? :)

  235. 235
    chriskoz says:

    Does he not represent, in his very words, everything you wish to be true about this war?

    No he does not represent my wishes, and never did. What he says may represent what he wishes to be true, but it is certainly not what I (or anyone I know) believe or want.

    I always feared this would happen, but never wished for it. There is a big difference.

    However, It does appear that you wish MacBeth represented the views of the “pinkos”. Sorry, it isn’t so. And never was.

    Shall I head over to LGF to find some really stupid quotes from a really messed up poster and claim they represent your views and wishes?
    (and just to make clear… this is a rhetorical question. I would not really do that because it would be just as stupid as what you are attempting to do with MacBeth)

  236. 236
    Brian says:

    Brian, go do yourself a favor, and fuck off.

    Just who the hell do you think you are? A good practice to use when commenting is never to say something you wouldn’t say to the other’s face. And there’s NO WAY you would say that to me in person.

    And do you think that’s some kind of argument? Fuck Off?? Why not just skip the comment if you have nothing contructive to say?

    Loser.

  237. 237
    Brian says:

    for historians to write their books

    History will be kind to Bush and Blair. And it’ll piss you off all over again.

  238. 238
    demimondian says:

    History will be kind to Bush and Blair.

    Yes — eventually, they’ll be history, and will no longer suffer under the burden of the guilt for starting this unnecessary and ill-advised war. For Blair, that will be a relief, although not for Bush. Shrub is too stupid to realize that he should feel guilty.

  239. 239
    Brian says:

    Sine.Qua.Non,

    Never mind answering my mast comment. I went to your site to browse. A couple minutes told me all I needed to know. You’re a garden variety Angry Left website. You’re ilk are a dime a dozen.

  240. 240
    demimondian says:

    Brian — posturing, are we?

    there’s NO WAY you would say [“fuck off”] to me in person.

    Why not?

    Remember the B. Juice motto: “You purport. We deride.”

  241. 241
    DougJ says:

    Brian self-identifies as a moron. And I give him a lot of credit for that.

  242. 242
    DougJ says:

    I intentionally stayed out of the ‘Jack Murtha hates America’ chorus last week

    And you’re bragging aboug that?

  243. 243
    tBone says:

    A good practice to use when commenting is never to say something you wouldn’t say to the other’s face. And there’s NO WAY you would say that to me in person.

    Yeah. And I’m sure you go around calling people “pinkos” to their faces all the time, and accusing them of wishing the US would get caught committing war crimes.

    Sine was right. Fuck off. You, and your little dog too.

  244. 244
    Pb says:

    This just in: Jesse MacBeth exposed as a fraud, highly recommended on Daily Kos. In other news, that sound you just heard was Darrell’s head exploding.

  245. 245
    Sine.Qua.Non says:

    Brian self-identifies as a moron. And I give him a lot of credit for that.

    DougJ, sometimes, I could just hug the piss out of you.

    Brian (Answering B in my mind, not in reality: Angry left my ass. I’m fuckin’ furious. And, I would say “anything I like” to your face. You have no idea. At least I have a blog to critique and put myself out there every damned day. Sheesh…why bother. Didn’t even get why I said what I did.)

  246. 246
    DougJ says:

    Thanks, Sine.

    And, John, just to explain my last comment, which may have sounded like a pointed attack — I don’t see why it would require effort on your part to not call Murtha a traitor. You’re not that kind of blogger.

  247. 247
    Sine.Qua.Non says:

    DougJ….why did you have to ruin it? Sigh.

  248. 248
    p.lukasiak says:

    Last words:

    ppgaz:

    For guidance here, listen to Murtha. He’s got the point on this thing, let him lead it.

    Murtha (from the Times)

    The United States defense official said the payments were also a focus of investigators trying to determine whether the killings were improperly covered up. On “This Week,” Representative Murtha suggested that the decision to make payments was strong evidence that Marine officers up the chain of command had knowledge of the events. “That doesn’t happen at the lowest level,” he said. “That happens at the highest level before they make a decision to make payments to the families.”

    that disquieting wailing you hear is ppGas being hoisted on his own petard

  249. 249
    Punchy says:

    ppGaz:

    Not whether you can string together a series of maybes into a BIG COVERUP rant.

    Jesus. Buy a fucking clue, man. Really.

    Today’s CNN:

    And, sources said, investigators have concluded there was a cover-up — but won’t say if it is limited to the handful of Marines who did the killings.

    ‘Nuff said.

  250. 250
    Sine.Qua.Non says:

    This is an an interesting turn of events:

    All Things Considered, May 30, 2006 · The U.S. Marines paid at least $38,000 to the families of Iraqi civilians killed in a November clash in Haditha. The payments were made in December, according to a report in The Denver Post that was confirmed by NPR.

    In another development in the case, investigators have been told that a sergeant coaxed other Marines to come up with a cover story about the incident. The squad leader allegedly sought to prove his group was not at fault for the deaths. Of particular concern to the sergeant, investigators say, was the deaths of five Iraqis in a taxi. They were unarmed and killed by Marines shortly after the roadside bomb went off, investigators have found.

    It is standard procedure for the military to make payments when it is at fault. The payments, which included $2,500 for each person killed, were authorized by the battalion commander, Lt. Col. Chessani, and his superiors. But it’s uncertain how far up the chain of command the approval had to go.

  251. 251
    Sine.Qua.Non says:

    The White House and MSNBC are saying that there were no deaths at Abu Ghraib when comparing it to the Haditha massacre. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

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