I guess any policy addressing illegal immigration needs to start here:
The Bush administration unveiled Thursday what it said is a new strategy aimed at companies employing illegal immigrants, illustrating it with a crackdown on the German-based firm IFCO Systems.
Law enforcement officials will “use all the tools we have, whether it be criminal enforcement or immigration laws to break the back” of businesses that exploit undocumented immigrants, said Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff at a news conference.
“We’re looking at them in the same way we look at criminal organizations,” he said.
Federal immigration authorities arrested nine people linked to IFCO Systems and rounded up more than 1,000 illegal immigrants in multistate raids, federal law enforcement officials said.
Many of you have stated that you refuse to listen to this administration regarding illegal immigration until they crack down on people who hire illegals. You got your wish. Now we get to see what power grabs Congress and the administration will try to make to ‘give law enforcement officials the tools they need to do their job.’
gratefulcub
I guess there wasn’t a French based company whose ‘back needs to be broken’.
Jorge
How can you begin to comment on policies with hidden agendas that result from an issue that was largely manufactured in order to polarize the electorate during an election? You are so far removed from reality that there is nothing much to say. And unfortunately, this is standard operating procedure in Washington today.
Remember the days when government actually lied and dropped the ball on real problems? Good times.
Ryan S
About time. I hope this isn’t a one time deal, “Lets bust this one blatant offender and then return to business as usual.”
jg
Not until they actually do something.
He maybe the whole immigration thing was just a pretext for giving law enforcement more tools.
eitherway this is another manufactured wedge issue. The anger stirred up by this issue couldn’t possibly be ignored by those who play on peoples anger to stay in power.
ppGaz
They couldn’t find a company based in Texas for their scare-mongering phony “crackdown?”
D. Mason
Why don’t they just give us a national ID tied to a federal bank account. They can eliminate paper currency(think of the savings on printing costs!) and only citizens with these accounts have “money”. Visitors can get temp cards that expire after the stated duration of their trip plus 7 days(for visitors who get delayed flights etc.). They can also deal with criminals and liberals by canceling their ID. It’s perfect!
Ryan S
I want to see them take down Butterball. I know for a fact they send people in trucks down to the border and bring back loads of Mexicans to work their local plant here.
Though I’m not holding my breath.
Ryan S
Except people will use something unoffical that will replace the currency. In fact I’m absolutly positive they will, or they’ll just barter.
Steve
I thought TalkLeft had the appropriate perspective:
Given the long history of non-enforcement, it’s going to take more than one high-publicity day of busts to make me believe anything has really changed.
jg
They won’t be taking down anybody. This is about showing the people which party is trying to address their concerns. When the bill gets inevitably shot down they’ll blame the dems. The bill doesn’t have to be effective or even close to effective it just has to be put out there. Its dem bait. They’re trying to put the dems in a position which appears to be at odds with the ‘will of the people’ which is a term the wingnuts like to use. Probably read it in a Mann Coulter book.
D. Mason
Actually I was figuring it would cause outright revolution. That’s the only logical result from such a despotic action. But since that’s where we seem to be headed they may aswell stop jerking us around and get it over with so we can revolt and be finished with the whole shitstorm.
Pb
Wow, Republicans finally found something they *can* treat as a law enforcement issue, and against companies, no less!
Excuse me. Against poor illegal immigrants and foreign competitors doing business in Houston, no less! I wonder if they’re using the very successful ‘drug war’ model for this venture, where you aggressively attack the most mild of symptoms, and not make a dent in the root cause…
mrmobi
John, you’re so cynical. Do some deep breathing, because, while the power grabs continue, you know there’s no chance in hell that this is the start of an ACTUAL enforcement program. That would really piss off the corporate base, and you know they don’t do that. I have to agree with ‘jg’ that this is “dem bait” but my very disorganized party has managed to take the right tack on this issue. This is going to be fun, and will probably be a big winner for Dems.
Ryan S
Oh I know exactly what it is, a media stunt, to make it look like HSS Micheal Jerkoff is actually doing something. And to give the Admin some supposed credibility on the new ‘War on Illegal Immigration’ that prolly coming down the pipe.
Well, I would hope so, but the way people seem so complient with authority today I wouldn’t be surprised if there would be one.
Ryan S
Thats what i ment to say.
gratefulcub
Is the plan to ‘break the back’ of all the foreign owned companies in the US?
IFCO really should have been more supportive of DeLay through laundered campaign contributions.
Pooh
Forgive my cynicism, but my first reaction matches that of gratefulcub. When they bust a Texan construction giant with strong GOP ties for the same thing, get back to me.
And my alternate take is somewhat classical: “Major Strasser has been shot. Round up the usual suspects.”
The Other Steve
Well it’s a good start.
However…
What American company stands to benefit from this, and how much did they give Bush for his 2004 reelection campaign?
This sounds suspiciously like the way Putin deals with crime in Russia. attack the company who is opposing your policies, while turning a blind eye to your friends.
Pb
The Other Steve,
I think the ‘IFCO Systems’ thing is more a case of burying the lead:
Now *that’s* the big story.
Pooh
TOS undoubtedly has BDS, but the truly bad thing is that you can’t categorically say that he is wrong in his assesment.
Mr Furious
Good call Other Steve. No doubt there is positive fallout for someone from this.
gratefulcub
And, Bush gets to look like he is doing what he says saying what he means meaning what he does, without offending campaign contributers.
tBone
And every large meatpacking firm in the Midwest.
I’m not holding my breath, though.
DougJ
I think we’ve turned the corner on German-based companies using illegal aliens. Our long national nightmare is finally over.
gratefulcub
Why do you want me to pay over $2 a pound for chicken?
LITBMueller
Funny…
But, I agree totally with Pb. The government just arrested 1,000+ people. Where are they going? In trucks to be dropped off in Mexico, or into the brand spankin’ new Halliburton detention camps?
Inquiring minds want to know…
gratefulcub
The president declared them to be Enemy Illegal Combatant Aliens, and ……. poof…..they just disappeared. Efficiency is the name of he game for the CEO Prez.
Tom
It’s the usual dog and pony show when immigration becomes a hot topic. Last time it was Wal-Mart (everyone hates them anyway, right?) and today it’s a German company. Never fear, Democrats and the Catholic Church will continue to import voters and customers, while Republicans will welcome cheap labor with open arms. All will be the same.
tBone
Because I hate America. Duh.
Darrell
I love how those who oppose any crackdown whatsoever on illegal immigration claim that this is merely a “manufactured issue” with ‘hidden’ agendas which few Americans could possibly begin to understand because they’re talking in code. No Jorge, it’s a real issue involving real problems which need to be dealt with.
I tend to agree w/the cynics here though, that this is probably a lot like governments putting on a show by arresting prostitutes and their johns twice a year, as Steve suggested above. The only difference is, that Congress and the American people are breathing down this administration’s neck to do something meaningful in the area of immigration enforcement.
Darrell
From the CNN article
Social Security had written them 13 different times to inform them there was a problem, a huge problem involving over 1/2 the IFCO employees before they finally cracked down.
The article says they will bring criminal charges against the employer. They need to follow through on that promise.. crack down on those employers for the scum that they are.
ppGaz
Sounds like they are just “cracking down” on firms who are in serious noncompliance with tax regulations, just for starters. Of course, you have to wonder how waiting all this time to “crack down” on an employer that is so obviously in noncompliance constitutes a “crackdown.”
It sounds a lot more like a “photo op” than a crackdown.
Like I said, phony. Political. Theatrical. Bullshit.
Right up your alley, Darrell.
Ryan S
No but I have feeling this is a manufactured response, with nothing meaninfull happening just a cresendoeing chorus until after november then ……… silence.
Darrell
I gotta say though, their strategy for targetting the employer was a good one.. start by finding large employers of hundreds or thousands of employees using fraudulent SS cards and who had ignored previous warnings from federal authorities. Only don’t give them 13 ‘second chances’, like they gave that German company.
The Other Steve
Hey, Darrell… Ask PeePee how much I oppose any crackdown on illegal immigration.
The Other Steve
BTW, the Michell Malkin post linked to by Polimom is interesting.
Basically she’s saying… Clinton was a far better President, because he actually tried to enforce immigration law.
But she’s still voting Republican. Because, well, you know, they uhh… oh crap, I can’t come up with a good reason.
Darrell
I know you think we should be more aggressive in cracking down on illegal immigration and the employers who hire them. I’ve read your comments on this subject before.
My post that you blockquoted was in response to Jorge, who tells us it’s all just manufactured outrage, nothing to see.
As for Clinton trying to enforce immigration law, buy a clue. Clinton is the one who gave us motor voter, the law which automatically gives voter registration to anyone getting a driver’s license without having to show proof of citizenship. Some ‘crackdown’ on immigration law under clinton, huh?
jg
The outrage of the politicians is manufactured, not the peoples outrage. The politicians are pretending to be outraged so that voters will see them as doing something to solve the problem. The test that will prove this true is how fast those like yourself and Brian leap to the defense of this legislation as more dems condemn it. Your inability to be seen as standing in agreement with unwashed hippie liberals is what the RNC is counting on to carry them through november.
Beavis
The big news here is that they are using asset forfeiture laws along the same line as what they do against organized crime.
Employers have become so brazen they’re doing all this stuff in a very deliberate way (using smugglers, etc.) and Chertoff is going to cause some pain.
I can’t wait for Pelosi to say what a tragedy this was.
Vladi G
Considering their track record for rounding up “terrorists on the battlefield” who have mostly tended to be innocent people with whom some warlord or other had a score to settle, and who usually end up getting released from Gitmo much later (assuming they haven’t been killed, of course), I’m not sure I find this news particularly encouraging.
jg
Seems like a dem trick to steal the latin vote away from the republicans. I could be wrong. I wasn’t really into politics during Clintons run. I was too busy spending my pay increases and reading about new world order conspiracy theories involving black helicopters and the all too powerful FEMA.
ppGaz
Exactly, Vlad. I’m sure that the hiring of illegals is now in its last throes in our country, and long overdue.
Thank Dog we have a government that has the stones to get in there and get something done.
How about a new slogan for the right: Law and Order.
Oh wait ……
Darrell
What legislation are you referring to? And which dems have ‘condemned’ it? The topic of this thread as I understand it is enforcement (too little too late imo) of existing law
Darrell
Correction: Dem trick to get votes from ILLEGAL immigrants… aiding and abetting them along the way with laws like Motor voter which do away with checks of citizenship before issuing voter cards.
jg
Substitute ‘legisation’ with ‘strategy’. As for dems who have condemned it you can start here. I didn’t say official democrats in elected office.
Darrell
Ok, but I think a lot of Dem voters, probably way more than half, are in complete agreement with this strategy of immigration enforcement
ppGaz
1) Darrell has questions he hasn’t answered for six months. I’m not answering any questions from him.
2) The letters in my handle are initials, not a child’s word for private parts.
3) Darrell is right to be concerned with immigration. He doesn’t want any of his relatives coming in from Dumbfuckia.
jg
‘Aiding and abetting’? Your hatred of the left runs pretty deep doesn’t it?
Darrell
What are you talking about old man?
jg
I would say they only agree that immigration enforcement is an important issue. Most probaly see right through this transparent ploy. This is not a fix. Its just looking busy appearing to do what the most vocal call-in radio show callers are bitching about and see as the correct solution. Its the common sense move, the one that addresses the issue on a small local scale but which ultimately won’t cause a dent in the flow of illegal immigrants.
The Other Steve
Whoa, you gotta be pretty whacked out to think that, as though the biggest problem we face from illegal immigration is that they might vote. Sheesh.
Motor Voter was about making it easier to register to vote. Believe it or not, there are still states in this Union that actively try to prevent people from voting by making it difficult to register.
Every time I’ve moved I’ve used it. It failed last time, for whatever reason my name wasn’t on the list when I went to vote last November. But fortunately in Minnesota we have same day registration so it wasn’t a problem.
You really need to stop reading the Rightwing Conspiracy handbook, and actually start thinking about policies on your own.
Darrell
I think most Dems are in favor of a crackdown on illegal immigration, particularly if that crackdown focuses on employers. And I agree with them. Whether or not this particular round of crackdowns turns out to be a publicity stunt, or a trend toward more meaningful enforcement, time will tell, don’t you think?
The Other Steve
Oh, you must have been reading the Weekly Standard and listening to Rush Limbaugh.
The Other Steve
As I said. Good start.
But Bush is an awful lot like Putin, and I suspect this was just some sort of political payback to one of his campaign contributors to knock out some competition.
As Malkin points out, and as much as I shudder to refer to her, the pattern of enforcement by this administration has been pretty bad. So why start now?
The Other Steve
BTW, I’m curious Darrell…
When you registered to vote, did you have to show proof of citizenship?
Darrell
I’m all for making it easier to register to vote. I have a huge problem, however, with Motor Voter’s dropping of citizenship checks in order register to vote
And I never said Motor Voter was the “biggest” problem we faced with illegal immigration as you claim.
jg
How much time? When is it the right time to declare this is just a charade?
Darrell
I had to give my address and SS#. Presumably they use this information to verify residency and citizenship
Darrell
More than 1 day.. which is all you have done. Typical knee-jerk assumptions
Darrell
Because the aggresiveness of the illegal aliens and their supporters with massive protests in the streets, has recently pushed this issue front and center, forcing this administration to take action. That’s one possible explanation which makes sense
ppGaz
Because if there is one thing Darrell can’t stand, it’s a knee-jerk reaction.
Ahem.
jg
Seems you had the same knee-jerk reaction. Why write knee jerk reaction? Why not reflex?
jg
But weren’t they reacting to the proposed new laws which make being illegal a felony?
Ryan S.
Which is what you have to do to get a drivers liscence, so it seems like killing two birds with one stone, and prolly saves money too.
John S.
Schmuck. When I got my driver’s license in Florida, I had to have my SS card and my birth certificate – or a passport. The requirements for non-citizens to fulfill are even more stringent.
This means that it was far easier for you to register to vote than it was for me to obtain a driver’s license. Which means that illegal immigrants would find it easier to register to vote than to obtain a driver’s license.
So much for your ‘motor voter’ righteous indignation, Darrell.
ppGaz
You cheerfully ignore any pointed questions that challenge your whack assertions and views.
The Other Steve
What citizenship check?
When I registered to vote in Iowa in 1988 there was no citizenship check. I filled out a little form that was sitting on a table in the student union and dropped it in a box. No ID required, no nothing.
If I can register by dropping a card in a box at the student union run by a group of political activists, why can’t I register when I apply for a drivers license?
Seriously, you are off in whackadoodle world in your complaints against motor voter.
Tom Annerino
ppGaz says…
Don’t you think we should be happy they are starting somewhere?
The Other Steve
And here it is… Minnesota requirement for Drivers license
You must show either a valid license, or the following documentation:
– Birth certificate
– Certificate of Birth Abroad issued by STate Dept
– Report o fBirth Abroad issued by US Embassy
– Adoption certificate
– Valid US Passport(which you have to submit a birth certificate for)
– Active US military ID
– passport from another country with proper residency forms
– canadian birth certificate
– variety of other cards such as Green card, etc.
Now what is interesting to me is that lately the whackadoodles have been arguing you ought to have to show your drivers license when you go to vote.
Yet, as you can see… while you have to have proper ID to get a drivers license, you don’t have to be a US citizen.
Honestly, I don’t have an answer for this except for a National ID card. But I’m also unconvinced that this is much of a problem.
W.B. Reeves
Glad folks got around to thoroughly debunking Darrell’s nonsense about Motor voter registration being a plot to pack the voter rolls with illegal immigrants. Of course, Darrell debunked himself with the following:
The key word here being “presumably”. Darrell didn’t even bother to find out whether, in fact, any such checks of citizenship were made before retailing his conspiracy theory. Neither, as has been amply demonstrated by posts on this thread, did he educate himself as to the various state requirements for obtaining a Driver’s license. Consequently, he is ignorant of the fact that some of them are far more stringent than the requirements for voter registration that he fufilled. Here’s a question. Is there any state in the Union that does not require at least a SS# and address before issuing a driver’s license?
And he wonders why people treat him like a clown.
ppGaz
Try asking Darrell some pointed questions about the facts he didn’t have, and see what happens.
Then six months from now, tell him that he still owes you some answers to some questions, and watch him say “What are you talking about?”
Well, at least he’s predictable.
Faux News
Especially this statement by Left Wing Nut Malkin:
Good Christ, talk about Darrell being utterly and totally OWNED by Malkin. Ahh the sound of sweet irony :-)
GOP4Me
Leave Darrell alone, peepee.
As for the immigration issue, we should build a wall and mount machine guns on it. We should shoot anyone trying to come over. We should stop every boat trying to enter our harbor, and if it has illegals trying to sneak in that way, we should sink it as a lesson to the others. If any other world leader wants to give us grief about it, we should remind them that we have a few nuclear warheads who are looking to emigrate to another country at the end of a rocket. I think that should quell the illegal immigration issue quite nicely in a short amount of time.
As for the businesses that import these workers, they are doing their part to keep the American economy humming. It is not their fault that they can’t find American employees to work at the level of wages which they can afford to pay their employees in order to keep their companies in the black. We need to do away with minimum wage laws and corrupt, Mafia-run trade unions. This will result in a re-evaluation of worker-employer relations, freeing up contract negotiations to the benefit of both sides. It will enable the market to determine pay rates, while also ensuring that American workers will work at those rates, rather than holding out for more money at jobs that enable them to cultivate laziness (i.e., convenience store work for $7.50 an hour, etc.).
I think if we do away with the minimum wage, the American economy will thrive. And illegal immigration will plummet even if we don’t build a wall or sink ships full of aliens.
Don
Eh, pointless indignation over motor-voter is a perfect accompaniment to immigration indignation – they both represent a lot of hand-waving and heat over some tertiary symptoms of a problem rather than the core issue.
All the immigration jobs wah wah wah overlooks the real reason employers love immigrant labor – the savings involved in not paying taxes on them and the hassle saved in tax and legal paperwork. Yeah, wages are often lower too but that’s not the real payoff. If businesses paid those taxes and filed that paperwork for their illegals as well as on the books employees then we wouldn’t need to give a rat-shit about immigrants consuming dollars in government resources because they’d be paying their share.
Blaming the workers themselves for not ponying up their state income taxes is moronic. How many documented workers would make good on those obligations if we didn’t do withholding from every check? Look at the huge number of chumps who jump up and down with glee every year when they get a tax refund as if it’s free money and not an interest-free loan they made to Unka Sam and Auntie State – you think these people would be filing quarterlies if we left them to their own devices?
Under the counter work has been a fact of life as long as every single person reading this has been alive. I’ll bet every one of you knew someone in High School working for a local small business and getting paid in cash off the books. What’s the distinction between that person and Manuel Labor over there picking fruit?
Off the books labor is a problem little different than illegal drug use in the US. The real problem is the fact that it’s in demand, not that someone supplies it, and no matter what we do to rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic by shutting down various supplies it’s going to continue. Basic capitalism dictates that a market demand will be met with a supply. Remove a supply and another will crop up.
But actually dealing with the demand results in more expensive apples and maid service and nobody really wants that. If you could snap your fingers and make every Mexican disappear from the face of the earth those jobs would just be held by some other marginalized group by the end of next week, not because of any racism but because the law-breaking employers need people who won’t rat them out or will have a hard time making the case stick if they do.
tBone
C’mon, GOP4Me. No one is going to believe in your character if you keep chewing the scenery like this. You’re like a stage actor moving into film for the first time – making unnecessarily large gestures, projecting your voice too loudly. Rein it in a little. Subtlety is the key to verisimilitude.
ppGaz
Is that similar to truthiness?
ppGaz
Yes, Darrell.
tBone
Not just similar; identical, I’d say:
verisimilitude \ver-uh-suh-MIL-uh-tood; -tyood\, noun:
1. The appearance of truth; the quality of seeming to be true.
2. Something that has the appearance of being true or real.
Darrell
Yeah, you dumbasses really “debunked” me there, given that some states tightened up their requirements AFTER 9/11, years after Motor voter had already been in effect. And at Other steve’s pdf of MN voting requirements show, you can obtain a driver’s license with a FOREIGN passport. A foreign passport = driver’s license.
I love how you jackasses gloat.. too stupid to realize that you don’t even have a point. What’s more, as i’ve stated already, motor voter is not my main concern, but it is indicative of Clinton’s lax attitude toward illegal aliens
Darrell
And on that form you had to give SS number and address. You didn’t receive your voter registration card until weeks later as info was verified. You really got a ‘solid’ point there with that example, and with your pdf showing how even now, post 9/11, driver’s licenses can be obtained with a foreign passport, and with motor voter, driver’s license = voter card
Darrell
No, but they hate a lot more paying the increased taxes to pay for the social costs in educating their children at $8,000/yr per child, their healthcare, and other costs. We pay a helluve lot more in higher taxes to pay for their social services than we would ever pay in higher cost of vegetables if the illegals weren’t here
So many of them come here uneducated, that even if they paid all taxes due, which is not much, no way does that type of unskilled uneducated worker pay out in taxes as much as they and their family consumes in social services.
At present, the illegals are dictating to us who comes in our country. 55% of them from 1 country alone, Mexico. We need to be picking and choosing who gets to come in. We don’t need a situation where a majority of our immigrants come here without even have a high school education, no money or job skills.
Canada cherry picked most of the rich educated Hong Kong chinese fleeing after Chinese takeover. We need to do something similar instead of what’s happening now
Darrell
Isn’t it interesting how fraud involving deceased persons voting.. the dead almost always seem to vote Dem. Funny how that is
ppGaz
I know, I was just being a smartass. That’s the only way I know how to be { sniff }.
Anyway, I think we should start using big words like that to throw Darrell off ;-)
ppGaz
So, even dead people are smarter than you are?
ppGaz
No offense, Darrell, but if I have to choose between them, and you, I would prefer them.
And I was kidding about the “no offense” part.
jg
Half the people I work with are contractors from an Indian tech company. None of them are US citizens and they all have drivers licenses. I just talked to a few of them and none of them are registered to vote even though they have valid Arizona licenses. A lot of them were here prior to 9/11 and they couldn’t vote then either.
Are you sure having a drivers license means you can vote Darrell?
Darrell
Well, according to the Motor voter act Section 9(b)(3), it bars “any requirement for notarization or other formal authentication.” Send in application by mail, and authorities are actually forbidden to authenticate citizenship.
Darrell
I just read Michelle Malkin’s article linked by Other Steve. The Bush administration’s record on enforcement is f*cking pathic.. Unbelievably pathetic. If here numbers are right, Clinton did in fact do a far, far better job.
This is a big reason why Bush’s approval numbers are in the tank. He goes against his base and swing voters in playing footsie with employers hiring illegal aliens.
So you lefties are in agreement that more enforcement against employers of illegal aliens, ala Clinton, is called for, right?
tBone
I know you knew. Just thought some of our other friends here could use the help . . .
Darrell giving Clinton credit for something? I think I just heard the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse come charging out of the gate.
jg
People can get a drivers license by mail? How do you do the driving test?
No its because he’s a lying sack of shit. This is just one of his lies, one that you appear to have noticed. More and more people are realizing you can’t take him at his word. Typical politician you might say but weirdly peopel have actually previously thought he was different than other politicians, someone who could be trusted, a straight shooter. People thought the left calling him on his lies was just partisanship (easy to think that when right wing news yells that all fucking day) when it was in fact people calling him out for bullshitting us. He’s just a slick lying politician who’s telling the righties that he shares their values and cares for all citizens but he’s really working an agenda the whole time.
ppGaz
“You lefties” can speak for themselves, since they live primarily in your imagination. But for my money …
Appropriate enforcement of all laws is always called for. In the case of employers and immigrants, I don’t see a big crisis, but that doesn’t negate the everyday need for appropriate enforcement. If that means “more” then more it is. But I’m not convinced that it means “more” because I don’t know enough about the current enforcement situation.
The situation you were ranting about yesterday is much more a general enforcement problem than a big immigration crisis. I am willing to wager that an employer who cuts corners on the law is going to do so in a variety of ways, not just in terms of employee citizenship or immigration status. So reining them in is a good idea. If it impacts illegal immigration as a side effect, fine with me.
GOP4Me
Typical leftist. When you can’t refute the message, try to impugn the messenger. I’m very sincere, Steak-person. What do you have to offer as a substantive retort?
You moonbats can’t even get your talking points straight. If I’m Darrell, how am I being a spoof? If I’m a spoof, how am I Darrell? Frankly, I think you kooks are spoofers. Nobody could consistently offer as many braindead, brickheaded theories as you do. I’m sorry if I have to resort to personal attacks to convey my contempt for your ideas, but since you haven’t offered me any substantive refutation of any kind, you leave me little choice.
tBone
That if you actually believe what you say, you’re bug-shit crazy?
Sorry, that wasn’t very substantive.
W.B. Reeves
.
Yes they really did and calling them names won’t alter the facts. “Some states” may have “tightened up their requirements after 9/11” but I doubt you could demonstrate that any of them required less than a SS# and an address previously. Likewise, the fact that foreign nationals can obtain a U.S. driver’s license isn’t news, nor does it indicate that they are registered voters. Motor voter is not automatic. Registration must be requested by the applicant. I doubt that anyone presenting a foreign passport as ID would be so stupid as to make such a request since it would be soliciting a crime. Never mind that no one would honor such a request.
This post, like your previous comments on the subject, make it abundantly clear that you have done no research on the topic. In short, you don’t know what you’re talking about.
The clownishness continues.
jg
But he thinks he does and trust me you did not change his mind. He doesn’t think he was debunked because he didn’t come here for debate. He comes here to tell us stuff. Stuff he’s learned from a trusted authority. We can’t debunked that trusted authority because we’re all just dishonest leftists. A point I’m sure he learned from his trusted authority.
GOP4Me
Nope. Further ad hominems from beef-brains. Get back to me when you can stop insulting me and start telling me why my plans are bad ideas.
ppGaz
The Big Giant Head?
Darrell
that’s rich.. coming from the closed minded hack who posted this:
Darrell
Damn, I hate it when I agree with ppgaz :)
Darrell
I posted a link which further explained that point. Sorry you didn’t bother to read it. The motor voter act barred state and local govts from authenticating citizenship for those applying by mail for VOTER CARDS
ppGaz
Me too. Stop it!
tBone
OK, OK, you’ve convinced me. Machine-gunning illegal immigrants, torpedoing boats carrying illegals, and nuking any countries who disagree – all swell ideas. It would probably lead to nuclear apocalypse, which might be bad, but presumably it would also hasten the Rapture. So on balance, I guess the good would outweigh the bad.
jg
How does my opinion on Bush effect what I said about you?
Since I was pro-Bush before the Iraq war and changed my mind based on what I observed and read doesn’t that mean I’m not close minded?
I’ll check back in six months for your answers.
Darrell
Could you explain for us what Bush “lied” about? Lies which caused your dramatic transformation from supporter of Bush to hater of Bush.. since he’s a ‘lying sack of shit’ according to you.
ppGaz
Just pick a quote. Any quote.
“I’m a uniter.”
“Wanted, Dead or Alive.”
“Mission Accomplished.”
“Heckuva job, Brownie.”
“I have political capital.”
“The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa.”
“By the year 2042, the entire [social security] system would be exhausted and bankrupt.”
…”You remember when [Secretary of State] Colin Powell stood up in front of the world, and he said Iraq has got laboratories, mobile labs to build biological weapons….They’re illegal. They’re against the United Nations resolutions, and we’ve so far discovered two.* And we’ll find more weapons as time goes on, But for those who say we haven’t found the banned manufacturing devices or banned weapons, they’re wrong. We found them.”
jg
Again how does my opinion on Bush effect what I said about you? You implied my comment is indicative of my credibility. How?
The transformation wasn’t dramatic. Being immediately labelled as a liberal by people who’d known me for years was dramatic.
Don
No, but they hate a lot more paying the increased taxes to pay for the social costs in educating their children at $8,000/yr per child, their healthcare, and other costs.
You’re not following the point here. The reason they are paying more there is that they are paying less elsewhere. And they are paying less in such a wide swath of industries that almost everyone ends up shouldering the cost.
And here you’re violating conservative republican party line. All we’ve heard for years now is that by putting more money into the hands of the business runners and investors and reducing small business costs and troubles we’re going to improve the economy. Well, hiring undocumented workers under the table sure accomplishes that. No unemployment insurance, no witholding, no paperwork associated with either.
If you plug that overhead and expense back into all those areas you raise the cost of the product/service. Skippy may pay a lower property tax by a nickel because of the other people paying in legitimately but he’s going to pay more for his burger down the street where now the business doesn’t have dishwashers working for a lower wage.
I realize there’s a huge group of people here who have some sort of allergy to the word ‘tax’ that’s so bad they’d rather pay $10 for a widget than $0.10 on a tax but why is this hard to understand that the cost of production impacts the cost of distribution and delivery?
Additionally, what happened to the inherent lack of trust in the cost of bureaucracy? You really think that once you put a few more stages of employee processing and tax collection in that the passed-on cost would be lower than just shouldering the minuscule additional costs in gov’t services cost loads? Turn in your GOP membership card at the door, please.
For one this has been widely debunked. Illegals largely shun government services out of fear. Two, again, you ignore the economic impact not just of what they would pay in taxes but what their employer would pay in taxes and the employer’s customers would pay in taxes due to the increased cost of goods and services. Sales taxes, from which states make a notable revenue, are based on a percentage of goods sold. Goods prices goes up, sales tax paid goes up.
Still missing the point on how supply rises to meet demand. Mexicans some in illegally because we have a demand for under the table work driven by the desire to keep costs low and resulting from a lack of enforcement to staunch that demand. You could nuke everything in the Americas south of Mexico down to the southern tip of South America and all it would do is alter the source. People will parachute in or those jobs will shift to 14-year-olds. The market exists for the worker so the worker will come.
W.B. Reeves
What a joke. Darrell’s source for this isn’t the Act itself but a letter from the League of Women Voters arguing a legal opinion of the Act. Further, it refers not to voter registration by Driver’s License application but to registration by mail, a practice which pre-dated the “Motor Voter” Act. Nor, according to the author of the letter, does the Act forbid authentication per se. Rather, it prohibits any form of authentication other than that provided for in the Federal application form.
Of course the whole statement is a nonresponse since the question was:
As was pointed out, Darrell’s citation has nothing to do with Drivers Licenses. It has no relevance to the question posed.
Which makes this last from Darrell more than a little deceptive:
Those would be the “voter cards” Darrell previously described as follows:
Reading comprehension disorder or factually challenged? You be the judge.
Darrell
How does the opinion of a FEW, a small minority of Repubs, reflect the party line?
Yeah? where? How honest of you to make a claim and not provide a shred of evidence to back it up. Most people see a very disproportionate number of uneducated illegal immigrants coming across our borders.. Where are all the illegal aerospace engineers?
If they are picking fruit at $9/hr, how in the hell do you figure they pay for the social services they consume? Of course, like most dishonest leftists, you pulled that out of your ass because you “feel” it must be true
Bullshit.. Almost every one of them with kids sends those kids to public schools.. paid for by taxpayers. Those kids take full advantage of the more costly bilingual educational services, free lunch programs.. And they and their parents are costing big money going to govt and private hospitals that they cannot afford to pay for
Darrell
In other words, even though the citation is completely accurate, because I didn’t link to the actual source document, your whackjob logic says that “debunks” my point.
Darrell
And wages being depressed as a result of illegal aliens (avg. carpenter makes less than $14/hour in Houston, TX according to BLS) means less income taxes and SS being paid. But I’m sure a deep thinker such as yourself already thought of that
Darrell
You posted that President Bush is a “lying sack of shit” I asked what he “lied” about, and you have yet to answer. Sound credible to you?
Tom in Texas
Well, Darrell, since we’re focusing on Houston, you may be interested in knowing that in Texas there is no income tax, so there are not less income taxes being paid. It stays at zero. All those serviecs are paid for by sales and property taxes, both of which immigrants already pay. And I think I have a solution for your wage depression problem. We could have a minimum amount that all employees must earn. Call it a wage if you like. But make sure there is an absolute minimum that everyone has to make. Problem solved.
jg
?
Let’s go back to the beginning:
How does my saying Bush is a liar effect my opinion that you don’t come here for debate, that you come here to tell us what you think? Asking me to list why I think Bush is a liar won’t answer the question, its a means to duck the question and put the onus back on me to prove something. Won’t work. You made a statement, please explain it.
Darrell
Sure you have a demand from some employers to pay lower wages to illegals while passing the costs of those illegal aliens to Joe Taxper… just as you have a big “demand” to steal things for free, rather than waiting in line and paying for them.
Darrell
Dumbass, just because there are no STATE income taxes, does not mean that FEDERAL income taxes are exempt here in Texas.
Do you realize how stupid you are? Has the truth dawned on you yet?
Tom in Texas
Okay, I’ll refrain from calling you a dumbass, but I will point out that since they are hired ILLEGALLY (read:under the books, paid in cash, all that stuff), they don’t pay federal taxes either. Do you think all 11 million are on the IRS tax rolls, waiting for a refund after the 15th? Sheesh man.
Darrell
You made the claim in your 2:10 pm post, that President Bush was a “lying sack of shit”. That you have yet to tell us even 1 of his “lies”, says it all about your credibility.. wouldn’t you agree?
Darrell
Tom, do you retract your earlier statement that Texans pay no incomes taxes? Do you realize that you’re not very bright?
ppGaz
So, after the lega+illegal immigration total as a percentage of population stayed flat for 100 years (except for a WWII dip and a couple other anomalies), this recent surge is due to …. what? … a big recruiting push by scofflaw companies?
Do you have some facts to back that up? Because it has all the earmarks of horseshit. According to the center for immigration policy, immigration swings match up to swings in the drivers at each end of the pipeline … namely, widening of the gap in conditions between the outflow countries and the inflow countries. As things in the former get worse, immigrants flow to the places where they are better. Simple as that. “Policy” at each end is not much of a determinant, according to their stats, which I already linked to some ago, so if you want them, go find them yourself, I am tired of educating people like you.
Darrell
Tom, I’m sorry, but I’m having difficult time following you. What is your point? This doesn’t have anything to do with your claim that Texans pay “zero”(your words) income taxes, does it?
W.B. Reeves
No. In plain English your citation was completely inaccurate, as I went on to describe. Too bad you didn’t bother to read that far. More, it was deceptive in presentation since it had nothing to do with the question you were pretending to answer. They only question remaining is whether you were being intentionally mendacious or simply sloppy.
Darrell
Back what up? Back up my claim you blockquoted that some employers want to pay lower wages? Is that the “controversial” statement which are demanding be supported?
Please tell me this isn’t where all the smart lefties come to post
Darrell
Whoa. Here is my citation verbatim:
To which you responded directly afterward:
Explain for us then whackjob, what was so “inaccurate” about my citation?
Tom in Texas
Darrell;
My point is this: In Texas, illegal immigrants pay for all the social services they use. Hospitals and schools are funded through property taxes. Now it is certainly true that many of them do not pay enough to cover the cost of these services, but this is true of Americans who don’t make enough money as well, and there are only two real solutions to this quandry: You can tell them to stop having children/stop getting sick, or you can pay them enough to where they can afford to pay for their own help.
As for federal aid, they do not pay fed income tax/SS, and they do not use it. They are a net neutral on the federal government’s tax structure.
You can continue to attemp to get a rise out of me, but I am only attempting to have a resonable substantive discussion. I will not stoop to your level of infantile aggression, so you may as well leave such insults out.
jg
No I wouldn’t. I haven’t answered not because I have no answers but because you are only asking it to avoid answering mine. You have still not answered it.
Answer my question and I’ll tell you why I think Bush is a liar and what lies caused me to go from pro-Bush to anti-Bush.
jg
this part:
Darrell
But because a disproportionate number of these illegal immigrants are uneducated with poor job skills, they don’t make enough to pay for those services. Just because the US has some poor people, or lepers for that matter, does not mean it’s a good idea to have a disproportionate number of immigrants to this country be poor or afflicted with leprosy. That makes no sense.. yet that is exactly the ‘logic’ you and many others on your side are using
Some pay, others don’t. They use our road, the federal govt subsidizes many local govt services including bilingual education..they benefit from police protection, except for those illegals in prison.. 17% of federal inmates are illegals.. and guess who pays?
Ok, but next time you direct a post to me, please try and not make absurd claims like you did above, that Texans pay no income taxes. You wanted act like a smart-guy, and I called you on it. Sorry if I made you feel stupid
ppGaz
… and therefore ….. what?
What’s the consequence of the shocking discovery that some employers want to pay lower wages?
Might it have anything to do with the TOPIC OF THE THREAD?
W.B. Reeves
Thanks JG. Like I said, reading comprehencion disorder or factually challenged? You be the judge.
jg
Now thats funny.
Tom in Texas
You know, it would be nice if the only people seeking a better life in this country were college educated geophysicists, but that’s just not reality. Generally when someone seeks a life somewhere else, it’s because their life isn’t so great in their homeland. Kind of like every immigrant that ever touched our shores.
The statistics I’ve read state that there are pver 2 million people in federal prison, and according to the USDJ, some 250,000 were not US citizens. This means that just over 10%, not 17%, and this includes not just illegals, residents of another nation who do not live here, but commit federal crimes on our shores.
Darrell
That’s simply not true. Tons of engineers, doctors, physicists and many other educated professionals, as well as business owners who would kill to come here.
It’s obvious to all but those blinded by their own dogma.. engineers, doctors, business owners and other educated professionals see more money and more opportunity here than in their own country. Did this really need to be spelled out for you Tom?
Regarding the 17% of federal inmates being ILLEGAL aliens, not immigrants overall, it came from here
W.B. Reeves
Of course Tom didn’t say otherwise. He simply pointed out that the vast majority of immigrants are usually people who think they’ll have a shot at a better life in the US. This naturally includes a large proportion of poor and unskilled people.
Once again, reading comprehension disorder or factually challenged? You be the judge.
Don
Yes, both myself and the Cato Institute, that bastion of liberal thought, simply made it up.
and
Although that pretty much wraps up YOUR unsubstantiated objection, you can check the conclusion in the end of chapter 7
Did you notice “which is considerably less than for legal immigrants and about 38 percent of the level for natives.“?
scs
Okay, I want to highlight an important factor of the immigration debate. It’s not so much racism or the education level of the immigrants, although of course those are some part of the factors. The main factor is the sheer numbers of the immigrants.
As the world develops, it should seem clear that population control will be a major factor to a country’s success. Contrary to the past, we don’t need that much extra labour to help out in the farm, we need to keep the population growth down to conserve energy and environmental and governmental resources. Of course we don’t want to go overboard like Europe, but keep growth at a nice steady pace. Even if all the immigrants were Swedish doctors and lawyers, with those numbers that are coming now, it STILL would be a problem for us. We just don’t want to increase our population that much. I mean do we want to become India or China with over a billion people each?
The rest of the undeveloped world has not gotten their population growth under control, and by the fact alone, they will continue to have a lower standard of living than the West until they do. We cannot solve their problems to do so by becoming a release valve for them, or we might suffer from it. The world is getting too crowded to ignore illegal immigration anymore and it’s time we paid attention to it.
Darrell
You would be hard pressed to find a school district in this country with costs under $5,000 per pupil per year. Average is around $8,000 per kid per year. You and your source for that data are so far off from reality with that cost quotation, there’s not much more to say about it. Doubt me? Check your own school district or any other school district. I believe Washington DC’s school district costs around $15,000 per pupil per year
I note that Cato report you cite is 11 years old and discredited. Immigration numbers and costs have skyrocketed over that period. Just so you know.
Don
Do you ever make an effort to form a coherent argument? Yeah, the numbers are low for contemporary standards. As you immediately go on to mention they’re from 10-15 years ago. What that has to do with the price of tea in China I have no clue. The whole point of the study is the cost of immigrants, legal and not, as a comparative percentage of natives. If immigrants are around 40% then that’s less if natives are $5 and it’s STILL LESS if they’re $500.
As far as discredited, just because you wish it was so doesn’t make it true. Of course, like most dishonest moonbats, you pulled that out of your ass because you “feel” it must be true.
Weight
How would you ever know when people will stop hiring the immgrants?
I think that the US is a great place for all of us and everyone else wants a piece if the pie including all of the illegal aliens.
Anna