The Gays Get a Break

Looks like the evil and pernicious homosexuals are going to get a break this election year, and the wedge issue du jour is immigration:

Al and Diane Kitlica have not paid close attention to the immigration debate in Congress. But when more than 100,000 mostly Hispanic demonstrators marched through Phoenix this week, the Kitlicas noticed.

“I was outraged,” Ms. Kitlica told J. D. Hayworth, the Republican who is her congressman, as she and her husband stopped him for 20 minutes while he was on a walk through their suburban neighborhood to complain to him about the issue.

“You want to stay here and get an education, get benefits, and you still want to say ‘Viva Mexico’? It was a slap in the face,” Ms. Kitlica said, adding that illegal immigrants were straining the Mesa public school where she teaches.

A few miles west, Gus Martinez, a Mexican immigrant who was moonlighting at a hot dog stand after a day installing drywall, said the protests had changed his perspective, too.

Mr. Martinez, who said he was a legal immigrant, said he also supported border security to curb illegal entry. But he had taken the day off to march earlier in the week because he believed that the foes of illegal immigration were taking aim at Hispanics as a group. The demonstrations, he said, had instilled in him a sense of power.

I still can’t make up my mind where I stand on this whole imigration mess- my general stance is more is better, but I also feel there needs to be a need for assimilation. Considering that the bills are stalled in the Senate, I do not know if I will have to make up my mind anytime soon, either, and this probably will just turn out to be another issue that really fires people up, drives both sides to the polls, and nothing changes.






429 replies
  1. 1
    Pb says:

    Immigration is a tricky wedge issue because it divides both parties. Also note a slight correlation with wealth here–the wealthier groups tend to favor some sort of guest worker program, while the poorer groups tend to oppose it. Coincidence?

  2. 2
    capelza says:

    Stop the Gay Illegal Immigrants!

    Amazing how this has suddenly become the topic…not really. This should be interesting. A very complex issue that will be reduced to soundbites and serious knee-jerking by both sides. Does most of the American public REALLY care that much? I don’t know. Border security is the core for me. If we can’t keep 12 million illegal immigrants out, how can we honestly think we are safe from anything. Not to mention the utter hypocrisy, or is it willful ignorance, that one of the reasons we have cheap goods is because of the illegal immigrant population? Put these folks on the citizenship track, and they will, like all Americans expect a better wage. Not that I don’t think they shouldn’t, either. Throw them out, and yeah prices will go up that way. I still do not understand why the focus has been on the illegals and not the people who employ them. The employers are Americans who have an obligation to obey the laws of the land.

    Also, did it cross anyone else’s mind. In this day and age, the only huge protests have come from the illegal immigrants. They do the work (and the protesting) that no one else wants to do. :p

    Incoherent? Yeah.

  3. 3
    Doctor Gonzo says:

    but I also feel there needs to be a need for assimilation.

    You know, I’m not sure why people think that Hispanic immigrants are less assimilated than any other previous groups of immigrants. The Pew Hispanic Center has found that by the third generation, 100% of Hispanic families use English as their first language. Not 90%, not 99%, but every single third-generation household. Which is exactly how it has been with every other immigrant group.

    Hispanic immigrants today are no different from German or Swedish immigrants from 100 years ago. The first generation will not assimilate, probably not learn much English, will stay within their safe immigrant communities, etc. The second generation, those who were very young when they got here or were born shortly after their parents came here, are in the middle, comfortable with both the old and the new. And by the third generation, they are assimilated. This pattern doesn’t change no matter what group of immigrants you look at.

    Is there any reason why Hispanics are singled out for “not assimilating”?

  4. 4

    I can tell you this. My Russian immigrant girlfriend hates them.

    Before coming here, she spent 8 years learning English. She doesn’t have much of an accent and spells better than most Americans. She can’t understand why we pander to these Mexicans by printing signs in Spanish as well as English. I mean, she’s really bitter about this. That she went through all this work and effort to get here, and is deeply resentful of the illegals.

    So I don’t know. I agree with Pb that this is a wedge issue that divides the two parties.

  5. 5

    I still do not understand why the focus has been on the illegals and not the people who employ them. The employers are Americans who have an obligation to obey the laws of the land.

    Because it’s the dirty little secret.

    The Republicans actually want to encourage immigration for cheap labor. But they don’t want the public to know that.

  6. 6
    capelza says:

    In my experience, it happens even faster. One illegal who is quite popular in the community worked three jobs, attended the local high school (where he was voted a Homecoming Prom prince) and began working in the “front of the house” at a local restaurant, that is as a waiter and not in the back doing the “scut” work. At least in this area, they are for the most part young and really want the “American dream”.

    Doctor Gonzo, you raise a very valid point. What exactly IS assimilation? Was the Norwegian language paper in Ballard (Seattle) proof that the squareheads (I am one, so no slur, it’s a term of endearment) were not assimilating? Or is Uff Da and Norwegian flags proudly displayed somehow less…UnAmerican?

  7. 7
    ppGaz says:

    She can’t understand why we pander to these Mexicans by printing signs in Spanish as well as English.

    Are we ready for another knock-down, drag-out argument?

    This quote, from the guy who called me a racist a few months ago?

    Writing bilingual signs is not “pandering”, it’s making sure that everybody can READ THE FUCKING SIGN.

    Jesus H. Christ. It’s a nod to practicality, not social engineering.

    News flash: The world — the real world — is not driven by the imperatives of talking heads, blathering, blogapalooza bullshit, and politics. It’s often just driven by people trying to get something done and live their lives.

  8. 8
    capelza says:

    The Other Steve. I can understand your girlfriend’s resentment. But from a purely logistical standpoint, the Hispanic illegals are here because they don’t have to cross oceans to get here, they have a job when they get here and honeslty, if you look at the place names of any state in the west, you’ll see that they have long been here in one form or another.

    Is your girlfriend willing to work for minimum or below industry pay standards? I am not excusing that, it bothers memore than anything, the depression of wages for everyone. She should come to the Willamtte Valley and meet the “Old Believers”, a Russian community that has some trouble assimlilating. I like a lot of them, but they are a pain to their neighbours.

  9. 9
    ppGaz says:

    John, why are you pandering to gays?

    Apparently, “pandering” is the new code word.

  10. 10
    SeesThroughIt says:

    Stop the Gay Illegal Immigrants!

    Gay Mexicans hate everything you love and love everything you hate! They are al Qaida under a green, white, and pink flag! Also, they want to pick your strawberries and give you a fabulous makeover!

  11. 11
    ppGaz says:

    Gay Mexicans hate everything you love and love everything you hate!

    So, Darrell is a gay Mexican?

  12. 12

    Hispanic immigrants today are no different from German or Swedish immigrants from 100 years ago.

    It’s all the signs in spanish.

    It sends a signal that this wave of immigrants isn’t interested in assimilating the language.

    Although to be fair, it is an improvement. The German and Swedish immigrants of 100 years ago probably couldn’t even read.

  13. 13
    capelza says:

    The Other Steve…

    Maybe one positive will be that more Americans will actually pick up at least some smattering of a foreign language…kidding, sort of.

  14. 14
    Mike in SLO says:

    The Other Steve Says:

    I can tell you this. My Russian immigrant girlfriend hates them.

    If your Russian immigrant girlfriend will pick crops or clean toilets for $5 an hour then she has every right to be upset. I have the feeling, however, that as an educated, white, immigrant she will obtain a good, middle class paying job at the expense of a probably older and slightly higher-paid middle class American. Maybe the solution is to increase legal immigration from countries with less developed economies and low skilled workers, and decrease it for Canadians, Europeans and Russians who already have stable countries and economies and opportunities in their countries of birth. The american middle class has to compete with Indian and Chinese highly skilled workers who work at substanitally lower wages. We certainly don’t need any added competetion from highly skilled, white, legal immigrants at this time.

  15. 15
    stickler says:

    The Other Steve should, indeed, send his Russian girlfriend to Oregon. We’ve got more Russkies than you can shake a stick at, and most of them are not of the weird Old Believer/Dukhobor/Russian Baptist strains. There were two Orthodox nuns at my local homebrew shop last week, buying stuff for winemaking. There are whole neighborhoods where the only signs are in Cyrillic.

    Oh, and Capelza:

    Also, did it cross anyone else’s mind. In this day and age, the only huge protests have come from the illegal immigrants. They do the work (and the protesting) that no one else wants to do.

    Do you have any proof — any at all — that the majority of the protesters in those rallies were illegal immigrants? Every story I saw in the news featured American citizens, many of whom had immigrated legally. Do you have any evidence to the contrary?

  16. 16

    Are we ready for another knock-down, drag-out argument?

    I don’t know. Is that what you want?

    I’m mainly just stating my girlfriends opinion. This isn’t something I really care about, but I do find many of the arguments rather lame.

    This quote, from the guy who called me a racist a few months ago?

    I did no such thing. I said what Mayor Goofball said down in New Orleans was racist, and you tried to defend it.

    I thought you made some interesting points, though about whether it’s racist for people to want to live with likeminded others. And that this likemindedness may have more to do with culture rather than race.

    Writing bilingual signs is not “pandering”, it’s making sure that everybody can READ THE FUCKING SIGN.

    Also solved by people learning English.

  17. 17
    ppGaz says:

    It sends a signal

    No. It gets the signs read. People who spend money on signs are mostly interested in getting them read.

    Everything is not about symbolism. When it is, then you’ll know that the Republicans have finally achieved total world domination.

  18. 18
    stickler says:

    GAAAAH! The up-is-down brigades just won’t stop:

    Although to be fair, it is an improvement. The German and Swedish immigrants of 100 years ago probably couldn’t even read.

    No! The Northern European immigrants of the late 19th century were quite literate, if usually in their own languages. Their literacy rates were at or above those of the native-born American population. The Southern and Eastern European immigrants that dominated the immigration wave after 1890 had far lower literacy rates.

    The one anti-immigrant argument you might have made — that Mexican immigrants in 2006 are much more likely to be illiterate than the majority American population, and that this might be troubling — you got backwards.

  19. 19

    If your Russian immigrant girlfriend will pick crops or clean toilets for $5 an hour then she has every right to be upset. I have the feeling, however, that as an educated, white, immigrant she will obtain a good, middle class paying job at the expense of a probably older and slightly higher-paid middle class American.

    Umm. She has a day job. But she also works as a house cleaner on weekends to make extra cash.

    It’s probably not a good idea to assume.

  20. 20
    chopper says:

    I still do not understand why the focus has been on the illegals and not the people who employ them. The employers are Americans who have an obligation to obey the laws of the land.

    because people like cheap produce. several things have driven the economy in america, and by that i mean inside our borders. cheap oil, for one; the expansion of america’s economy in the 50’s and the movement of large swaths of the population into the suburbs was predicated on cheap, plentiful oil.

    second was, and due in part to the above, the lowering of food prices. cheap oil got factories churning and cheap oil meant lower farm overhead as well as the ability to irrigate, fertilize and use more land.

    and oh yeah, cheap immigrant labor in areas where fruits and vegetables need to be harvested.

    used to be food production cost a lot and took up much of a person’s time and/or money. after it became and stayed relatively cheap, people had for the first time in a long time money to spend on other things. the middle class grew.

    people aren’t going to want to spend $5 a pound on oranges. and rising oil prices aren’t helping either.

  21. 21

    Was the Norwegian language paper in Ballard (Seattle) proof that the squareheads (I am one, so no slur, it’s a term of endearment) were not assimilating? Or is Uff Da and Norwegian flags proudly displayed somehow less…UnAmerican?

    This is an interesting question. I go to a lot of Russian cultural events. And there is a Russian grocery store not too far from us, where you can get Russian food(most of it from New York, some of it imported), and also pick up the Russian language newspaper.

    And also to be fair, not all Russian immigrants speak English well. My girlfriend used to work at a bank as a teller and word got out to the community and soon many Russians in town were coming just to see her. Also her friend works as a translator for the County courts and hospitals. Although these situations are more specific, not just getting around issues but more complicated matters dealing with law and medicine and such.

    So yes, fair point. And as I recall reading once 100 years ago the Chicago police employed translators for Polish, Italian, etc. So you’re right, this isn’t new.

  22. 22
    ppGaz says:

    because people like cheap produce

    They do, indeed, but let’s cut to the chase: 11-12m illegal immigrants is not about produce. Has nothing to do with produce.

  23. 23
    Easyliving says:

    “still can’t make up my mind where I stand on this whole imigration mess- my general stance is more is better, but I also feel there needs to be a need for assimilation.”

    Sonofabitch,

    it’s the ILLEGAL immigration that’s a problem. ILLEGAL.

    It’s the difference between lightning and lightning bug.

    Yeah, that’s from my old buddy, my old pal, Mr. Twain.

    EASYLIVING RULES THIS SCHOOL.

  24. 24

    The one anti-immigrant argument you might have made—that Mexican immigrants in 2006 are much more likely to be illiterate than the majority American population, and that this might be troubling—you got backwards.

    Bizarre. I stated that they were far more likely to be literate than past immigration waves.

    I’m not certain of the validity of your rant, considering you didn’t even read my point properly.

  25. 25
    capelza says:

    stickler..it was a joke, a bad one, but a joke. AS for the “Old Believers. They are the folks I come into contact with on a regular basis where I live. We could talk about the Orthodox communities, however my experience with them is in Alaska, western Ak, where the Russian heritage has never gone away and the seminary in Kodiak continues the traditions, as well as the Russian speaking population that still exists within, primarily the Native speakers. I, for one, love it and hope it does not disappear in the rush to “assimilate”.

    The Other Steve, ESL classes are packed, at least in my area. These folks ARE trying to learn English. Could you or anyone learn another language instantly upon enerting the country? As you yourself said, your girlfriend took English for 8 years.

    Though, as long as there is no official language in the US it seems to be a lot of belly aching.

  26. 26
    ppGaz says:

    people aren’t going to want to spend $5 a pound on oranges

    And, they won’t. Your summer-fall citrus comes from other countries. Shipped very long distances. Picked by foreigners in their own foreign country … trucked long distances to your store.

    And it still won’t cost you $5 a pound.

    However, we are two layers removed from the point now. First, there isn’t going to be any $5/lb fruit based on labor costs, and second, field labor has little to do with the fact that there are 11-12m illigal immigrants here right now.

  27. 27

    EASYLIVING RULES THIS SCHOOL.

    Could you repeat your rant again?

    In English.

  28. 28
    DougJ says:


    this probably will just turn out to be another issue that really fires people up, drives both sides to the polls, and nothing changes.

    I agree — both sides are at fault here as elsewhere. Really, both sides are always wrong and it is only those of us in the middle who stand above politics that are ever right about anything ever. So sayeth David Broder.

  29. 29
    Jim Allen says:

    Re: the bilingual signs — travel nearly anywhere else in the world and you’ll also find bilingual signs. The big difference is that the second language is nearly always English. Makes sense — the secondary language that is most common will be represented, others won’t. Are the Italians, for example, “pandering” to English speakers? Or are they being practical?

  30. 30
    Easyliving says:

    pp,

    You are one dumb, sonofabitchin’ bastard boy. I’d like to make you cry, but once I succeed I know I will feel like a thousand pound gorrilla playing slapcock with a loony toon.

    Where’s the fun?

  31. 31
    ppGaz says:

    So sayeth David Broder

    In order for “the middle” to be right, each “side” would have to be partially right. Standing in the middle of two “wrongs” that are mirrors of each other gives you balance between two wrongs. Two balanced wrongs are just wrong.

    Doug, you are wrong. Not just wrong, but goddammed wrong. Funny, but wrong. Damned funny, but damned wrong.

    But more to the point, you are pandering to fence-sitters and sending a message that it’s okay to straddle.

    I’m sick of pandering and sending bad messages.

  32. 32
    Jim Allen says:

    EASYLIVING RULES THIS SCHOOL.

    Does the librarian know that you’re cutting your study hall to post rants on the web, young man?

  33. 33
    capelza says:

    Okay…please do not let this thread turn into another crap topic because of assholes like Easyliving.

    ppGaz, I think you are right. When the illeagals (we called them migrant workers in those days) were strictly agricultural (I tell you, I picked daffiodils one summer, miserable back breaking work) there wasn’t a big stink about them. It is as they move into fields traditionally hels by “white folks” who could get a decent wage, like building trades, that it is becoming more of an issue. Industries that are changing demographics and affecting the “American” working class.

  34. 34
    ppGaz says:

    I’d like to make you cry

    Try an onion.

  35. 35
    ppGaz says:

    It is as they move into fields traditionally hels by “white folks” who could get a decent wage, like building trades, that it is becoming more of an issue. Industries that are changing demographics and affecting the “American” working class.

    I wish I could agree, capelza. I don’t see any evidence that the mongol hordes … er, I mean illegal Mexicans … are either driving down the wages of skilled labor, or driving up the cost of anything, in any onerous or significant way. Even if there are cherry-picked data points here and there that say otherwise, I believe that over time, the net effects are positive … in other words, the negatives are transitory.

    People are not going to risk their lives to come here and get stuck in a situation as bad as the one they left. They are going to make their situations better, and in case some of our friends don’t get this, making our lives better is what makes everyone’s life better here … it’s the whole point of America in the first place.

  36. 36
    Easyliving says:

    TOS,

    You bird brained halo-for-your-nipples scat vomit stain: Take a hike.

    Nobody likes you around here. Just leave. Get the hell out.

  37. 37
    Jim Allen says:

    You are one dumb, sonofabitchin’ bastard boy. I’d like to make you cry, but once I succeed I know I will feel like a thousand pound gorrilla playing slapcock with a loony toon.

    Interesting that you know what it feels like to play “slapcock”.

    Run along now, little man, the adults are trying to have a conversation here.

  38. 38
    Easyliving says:

    I AM EASYLIVING.

    I RULE THIS A HERE SCHOOL.

    BOW TO LEPER MESIAH.

  39. 39
    Jim Allen says:

    “Halo-for-your-nipples”? WTF?

  40. 40

    Re: the bilingual signs—travel nearly anywhere else in the world and you’ll also find bilingual signs.

    In Airports, and at Tourist locations, perhaps.

    But when I was walking the streets of Frankfurt, you’d run into English but it was always stuff that had been adopted by the Germans. Much like how we adopt Spanish words into our language.

    I’ve got a menu here at my desk from a Pizza Parlor in Wiesbaden, simply because I wanted to show people how to order a pizza with peperoniwurst, pilze and extra Käse.

  41. 41
    Pooh says:

    The more I learn about this issue, the more it seems to me that “Guest Worker” is subtle GOP sloganeering in that for all intents and purposes, it equates to at best indentured servitude (no citizenship track; here at the will of their employer, thus no bargaining power, etc.)

    So what do I think of the overall issue? I’m largely with John, who knows…I think tighter boarder control is a good thing, but at the same time simple economics indicate that unskilled labor has a strong incentive to cross (and there is evidence that we have incentive to let them, probably behooves us to engage in realistic immigration policy.)

    Beyond that, I take no position other than to say that making an additional 12 million people felons rightnow seems like a bad idea in practice.

  42. 42
    ppGaz says:

    Nobody likes you around here

    You just described two thirds of the posters here.

    Well, three fourths.

    Actually, about ninety percent.

    To get yourself into that last ten percent, you have to produce another poster who likes you.

    If you will send me your credit card number and expiration date, I will see that it gets taken care of.

  43. 43
    Doctor Gonzo says:

    The Other Steve, I really can’t understand your girlfriend’s anger. Is it because she spent so much time learning English to get here and other people got here without it? Is that it?

    Frankly, I look at it from this perspective: she is well-educated, speaks English, and has no strikes against her, so she can pretty much do whatever she wants to do. Somebody who doesn’t know English probably isn’t going to get a job better than dishwashing or picking fruit.

    She shouldn’t be angry that there are non-English speakers here, she should feel grateful that she has an education and the sky’s the limit for her, unlike somebody with no eduation and no language skills.

    The signs in Spanish issue…that’s just ridiculous. I’ve noticed that lots of businesses have bilingual signs out there; curse them for wanting to reach customers and make money!

  44. 44
    Faux News says:

    What about Gay Mafia Captains such as Vito on the Sopranos last night? There just might be an illegal immigrant version of Vito in the Mexican Mafia right here in the good old US of A.

    Talk about a perfect wedge issue. I see Darrell et. al. grabbing on to this brass ring rather quickly.

  45. 45
    ppGaz says:

    Much like how we adopt Spanish words into our language.

    I know. We really should call a burrito a “wrap.”

    The enchilada becomes the “unleavened corn bread cheese melt,” and so forth.

  46. 46
    capelza says:

    I don’t know about the rest of the country, but only in my neck of the woods. Fish plant workers used to make a proportionally higher wage in the past. With the influx of the illegals, it is minimum wage across the boards. Mind you, I am not knocking the immigrants at all. But to say it has NO impact is not correct. It is possible that the wages depressed first and that only illegals (and they are, I know them and have daily contact with many of them) would then take the jobs. But the PERCEPTION in this political year is that they do. If it isn’t true, then THAT needs to get out more.

    All in all, I am nuetral about the whole thing…I’m more concerned that BushCo will start another fucking war…but look, over there…a “wetback” and he’s mowing your lawn!!!

    AGAIN, please, please..do NOT engage the troll…I beg you.

  47. 47
    ppGaz says:

    Beyond that, I take no position other than to say that making an additional 12 million people felons rightnow seems like a bad idea in practice.

    Somebody on the Weekend Blatherthons (Chris Matthews, I think) said “We can’t even get 100k people out of New Orleans, how the hell are we going to get twelve million people out of the country?”

  48. 48
    KCinDC says:

    Have new citizens been sworn in in languages other than English before recent years? Have ballots been printed in languages other than English before recent years? Maybe they have been and people just don’t know about it, but I think that sort of thing is part of what makes some people feel that the new Hispanic immigrants are different from earlier waves.

    It seems contradictory to argue simultaneously that (1) the new Hispanic immigrants are assimilating as quickly as previous immigrants, so there’s nothing new going on, and (2) people need to learn a second language anyway, and besides the US doesn’t have an official language, so the new thing that’s going on is okay. Am I missing something?

  49. 49

    When the illeagals (we called them migrant workers in those days) were strictly agricultural (I tell you, I picked daffiodils one summer, miserable back breaking work) there wasn’t a big stink about them. It is as they move into fields traditionally hels by “white folks” who could get a decent wage, like building trades, that it is becoming more of an issue. Industries that are changing demographics and affecting the “American” working class.

    Those people in carpentry should just retrain themselves as chemical engineers and get new jobs!

    Honestly, this is the aspect of the policy talk that disturbs me, how Democrats can claim to be for working people yet are perfectly willing to shuffle their jobs out from underneath them just so they can pander to some hispanic votes.

  50. 50
    DougJ says:

    I really hate the “both sides are wrong” meme. I also hate the word “meme” but I use it here anyway. But here’s how it goes — Bush says the earth is flat, Kerry says it is round. The press says that both sides are wrong because it it isn’t perfectly round, it’s an oblate spheroid. David Brooks writes an article attacking “militant round earthers” and suggests that outside of the northeastern elitist enclaves, most Americans are in the middle on the roundness debate. Paul Krugman writes a piece saying that the scientific community does describe the earth as round because it is almost perfectly round. Hugh Hewitt attacks him as a relativist, since it is not perfectly round, Cokie Roberts denounces him as shrill and says he’s costing Democrats votes with divisive rhetoric, and John says he doesn’t know what to think about the debate (that’s a cheap shot, I know John wouldn’t really say that, but I think think everything else I describe here is pretty accurate) and that he wishes both sides would stop politicizing the issue of earth roundness.

    That’s pretty much how the “both sides are wrong” thing works.

  51. 51
    ppGaz says:

    But to say it has NO impact is not correct

    I said:

    driving down the wages of skilled labor

    The fish plant is not skilled labor. No offense to the people who work there.

  52. 52
    Easyliving says:

    pP,

    Lies, innuendo, and smears: these are your trade. You, sir, are nothing more than a logically brutish poppinjay. You’re all sullied up.

    Well, pp, remember at least these words: EASYLIVING RULES.

  53. 53

    The Other Steve, I really can’t understand your girlfriend’s anger. Is it because she spent so much time learning English to get here and other people got here without it? Is that it?

    It’s a level of resentment, I suppose. Being from overseas it’s difficult to sneak across the border. So she had to go through the channels, fill out the paperwork, etc. She’s spent hours upon hours waiting in line at the immigration offices and so forth, because she followed the rules.

    And now she sees people gaining the same benefits while taking the easy way.

    I don’t blame her. I hold the same view, that it seems the people who try to do the right thing get shat upon by the people who take the easy way through life. So what value is there to trying to follow the rules?

  54. 54
    Perry Como says:

    She can’t understand why we pander to these Mexicans by printing signs in Spanish as well as English.

    Depends on where you live, really. If I want to see businesses pander to Chinese immigrants I’ll go over to the eastern portion of Canal St. or downtown Flushing. If I want to see people to pander to Indians, I’ll go over to Newark Ave. and Kennedy Blvd. For Korean pandering, 40th and Broadway. Polish pandering is done over in Greenpoint.

    If you work for a hospital, chances are your advertising literature panders to at least 8 different langauges, not including English. Business as usual for a country full of immigrants.

  55. 55
    RSA says:

    I don’t really understand why ‘Viva Mexico’ is a slap in the face to Ms. Kitlica. One can only wonder what she does on St. Patrick’s Day. Don’t illegal immigrant workers pay taxes without much expectation in the way of services in return? (Maybe for medical emergencies, but I seriously doubt they’re going down to the local welfare office.)

    More generally, I have little sympathy for the view that “I suffered for X, so everyone who wants X should suffer just as much,” when X is citizenship, among other things. That is, some preconditions are relevant and some are not, independent of how hard they are to meet.

  56. 56
    ppGaz says:

    Honestly, this is the aspect of the policy talk that disturbs me, how Democrats can claim to be for working people yet are perfectly willing to shuffle their jobs out from underneath them just so they can pander to some hispanic votes.

    You are watching way too much television, man. Seriously. That’s just silly.

    People really interested in jobs in this country should be worried about the wage pressure from SKILLED labor overseas. That’s where American wages are going. When you buy a tv at WalMart for $100 that cost $400 adjusted for inflation just a few years ago, or buy New Balance shoes at Mervyn’s for $45, you are hiring LEGAL foreign workers at wages nobody you know would work for to make your things.

    Let’s cut the crap, please.

  57. 57
    Doctor Gonzo says:

    It seems contradictory to argue simultaneously that (1) the new Hispanic immigrants are assimilating as quickly as previous immigrants, so there’s nothing new going on, and (2) people need to learn a second language anyway, and besides the US doesn’t have an official language, so the new thing that’s going on is okay. Am I missing something?

    I don’t think it is contradictory at all. Hispanics are assimilating as quickly as other immigrant groups. However, the stream of immigrants coming into the U.S. is pretty constant and will remain so as long as there is such a huge gap between the U.S. and Mexico in terms of the economy. So there will always be people who may not have great English skills, though the makeup of that group of people will change.

    I think that part of the reason that there are bilingual (or multi-lingual) signs now and there weren’t before is because today life is a lot more complicated. When my Norwegian ancestors got here and started the farm, what signs they did have to read? There were no roads, no highways, no cars, no computers, nothing like that. That doesn’t mean that Norwegians were any quicker in assimilating than Hispanic immigrants today.

  58. 58
    capelza says:

    Oh ppgaz…you never had to filet dover for poundage and still make it beautiful. It IS indeed a skill…a fine art. I’m not talking about dock jockeys, even thought their wages, too have gone down. These are people who have (had anyway) skills, just not glamourous ones.

  59. 59

    But the PERCEPTION in this political year is that they do. If it isn’t true, then THAT needs to get out more.

    I believe the reason why some apologists are not willing to engage in that argument, is because the truth is closer to perception than not.

  60. 60
    Easyliving says:

    You damn rollicking rogering ramblers, know this:

    Immigration should meet reasonable demands of the economy. Illegal immigration is a security issue and should always be zero.

    You silly, too smart to know how idiotic your illogical ramblings are type posters on here, EAT THIS WITH YOUR POTATOES.

  61. 61
    capelza says:

    As for the point about foreign cheap labour…well no shit. Do you know how hard it is to find American made products? I do because I don’t buy anything that says made in China or grown in Chile, etc. That is the other side of the arguement, but most Americans do not want to hear it because they still want to get that crap at Wal-Mart or Target or Mervyn’s or fucking Nordstrom’s.

  62. 62
    Doctor Gonzo says:

    I don’t blame her. I hold the same view, that it seems the people who try to do the right thing get shat upon by the people who take the easy way through life.

    But the point that I was trying to make is that the immigrants who don’t speak English certainly aren’t taking the easy way through life. Does she think it is “easy” to make minimum wage washing dishing or working in the fields? Would she rather have the life of an illegal immigrant who just crossed the border and doesn’t speak any English at all?

    My wife is an immigrant, and so we went through all the hoops too. But since she is educated at went through those hoops, she is making nearly six figures working for a huge investment bank. No illegal immigrant who can’t speak English is going to be able to do that, so why resent them?

  63. 63
    ppGaz says:

    More generally, I have little sympathy for the view that “I suffered for X, so everyone who wants X should suffer

    It’s just another version of the “when I was your age, I walked five miles to school every day, and back, and it was uphill both ways” routine.

    America is the land of opportunity, not the land of “everybody gets the same thing.” And where does the opportunity come from? A pretty large percentage of it comes from standing on the shoulders of those who went before us. Those forbears who stood up and lifted us onto their shoulders and expect us to do the same for the next ones who need an opportunity.

  64. 64
    ppGaz says:

    Oh ppgaz…you never had to filet dover for poundage and still make it beautiful. It IS indeed a skill…a fine art. I’m not talking about dock jockeys, even thought their wages, too have gone down. These are people who have (had anyway) skills, just not glamourous ones.

    Anybody who can filet sole is an artist, for sure. But you know, we are really talking about apples and oranges here. By that I mean (don’t hit me) Apple Computers and oranges picked by farm workers.

  65. 65
    jaime says:

    I don’t blame her. I hold the same view, that it seems the people who try to do the right thing get shat upon by the people who take the easy way through life.

    Yes, living in abject poverty. Walking through a hundred miles of desert facing death through malnutriotion, dehydration, or “minuteman”…facing exploitation by their employers once they get here, pure derision from “natives” can’t stand the sight of “these people”. What a lavish fucking life they lead.

  66. 66
    capelza says:

    ppGaz..really I do agree with you, just had to stick up for the artists that once worked on cannery row.

  67. 67
    t. jasper parnell says:

    This suggests that assimilation has little if nothing to do with language. My understanding of the US’ success in transforming imigrants into Americans has all to do with the minimalist notion of what an American is. Nativists, of whom there are and always have been many, are an exception. For most of us, or so it seems to me, American means acceptance of the validity of the Constitution, avoiding, so far as it is possible, jury duty, leaving one’s neighbor alone, and generally agreeing to tolerate (for an interesting perspective on intolerance and tolerance, see Kamen _The Rise of Toleration_,although there are lots of problems with the text) other citizens’ personal secular and sacular convictions, in so far as they do not contradict the Constitution.

  68. 68
    jaime says:

    that once worked on cannery row.

    Speaking of…I’m a huge Steinbeck fan and I’ve recently realized that some of the most staunch anti-immigration California Republicans (Orange County, Sacramento) are descendants of Okies. Filthy illiterate job stealing Okies.

  69. 69
    t. jasper parnell says:

    Fiddlesticks, I cannot make the linking deally work. With appologies to Mr. Cole’s rules:
    http://www.casademaryland.org/press/may16-2004.htm

  70. 70
    capelza says:

    jaime Says:

    that once worked on cannery row.

    Speaking of…I’m a huge Steinbeck fan and I’ve recently realized that some of the most staunch anti-immigration California Republicans (Orange County, Sacramento) are descendants of Okies. Filthy illiterate job stealing Okies.

    Very good point.

  71. 71
    jg says:

    Republican candidate: “My opponenet wants us to open our borders and allow Al Qaeda to walk a nuke up to the White House or New York City. This is a national security issue and Dems can’t do national security. You want to put your life in the hands of someone who believes the guy who set off a nuke in New York should get a hug?”

    And then they win the midterms.

  72. 72
    db says:

    Fiddlesticks, I cannot make the linking deally work. With appologies to Mr. Cole’s rules:

    http://www.casademaryland.org/press/may16-2004.htm

    My illegal immigrant co-worker showed me how.

    1) Type some words to describe link
    2) Highlight those words
    3) Click on the “link” button and paste the url you want linked

    Fiddlesticks

  73. 73
    ppGaz says:

    just had to stick up for the artists that once worked on cannery row.

    The point is well taken.

    Every job has dignity AFAIC. Let me make you a little list of things I have done to pay for my groceries:

    Cleaning veterinary offices
    Working at a convenience store
    Delivering pizzas
    Running a commercial donut fryer (it used 50 lb of fryer fat an hour).
    Cleaning mechanical parts in a degreasing machine
    Painting vending machines
    Scooping ice cream
    Fry cooking

    I don’t look down my nose at anybody’s job, ever. Sorry if it sounded like I did.

  74. 74
    t. jasper parnell says:

    Like this?

  75. 75
    Ryan S says:

    You want to put your life in the hands of someone who believes the guy who set off a nuke in New York should get a hug?”

    Yeah, You know how easy it is to lug a nuke on your back accross the desert.

  76. 76
    stickler says:

    Filthy illiterate job stealing Okies.

    True fact: the California Highway Patrol closed the California-Nevada border several times during the Depression, to keep out the Dust Bowl refugees. This wasn’t just a John Ford fantasy.

    I’ve also heard that back in the 40s and 50s the LAPD was just nasty as all hell to any young men who were a little too blonde, a little too blue-eyed, talked like hicks, and it was even worse if they drove a delapidated car.
    Everybody knew, back then, that Okies and Arkies were nothin’ but trouble. Racial profiling, sort of, was the preferred method for dealing with them.

  77. 77
    ppGaz says:

    My opponenet wants us to open our borders

    The borders are open now. Wide open, always have been.

    The Border Patrol is mostly a palliative measure as it now exists.

  78. 78
    Kirk Spencer says:

    A scattering of responses and opinions….

    Why are we seeing so many official and semi-official material printed in spanish and english? IMO, it’s money. In previous years, immigrant waves were either dominated by cultures who spoke English, or there was no significant dominant language over sufficient years to have an impact. If 10% of my local population speaks X (not english), and that stays pretty constant for more than a handful of years, then if I “pander” while others don’t, I just guaranteed 10% of the local population was my monopoly customer base. And that applies whether the I’m talking money or votes. The nominal number nationwide is 5% of the total population speaking spanish only, but that’s still a significant minority in these days of narrow margins (profit and vote).

    Why the resentment? Two major things, neither having anything to do with the other.

    Resentment point one – as with all cultures, the new immigrants (legal or otherwise) tend to behave as though they’re still in their nation of origin. Historically they gathered in ghettos with the second and third generations moving out into the ‘neighborhood’. The hispanic – especially Mexican – population, however, is large. And running alongside, the ‘local’ stores have been significantly replaced by megastores – Walmart being the big example. So anywhere you have more than a handful of these immigrants, they’re shopping at Walmart and doing it as though they’re home. Which tends to include a lot more of what we perceive as rudeness (much closer personal space, a LOT more pushing and shoving, glares to establish dominance of ‘who gets the last whatever’ even before whatever’s quantity on hand is determined, that sort of thing). Thus the non-immigrant perceives the hispanic immigrant in particular as rude and uncouth – and because they’re IDENTIFIABLY different it’s not tagged to them as a person but all ‘like them’. (Language exacerbates this issue.)

    Resentment point two isn’t their fault. There used to be more tolerance for ‘them’ taking the ‘lower jobs’. That was before so many jobs went overseas to ‘lower-paid foreigners’. Now there are a lot of people having to compete for those ‘lower-paid jobs’ (not minimum wage but 10-12 per hour), and there are those same foreigners taking them HERE just like THERE.

    I don’t have a good solution to these, but I do think they’re the core of the resentment. And people wanting to run wedges are going to gravitate to this issue – it splits both parties as already said.

  79. 79

    Does she think it is “easy” to make minimum wage washing dishing or working in the fields? Would she rather have the life of an illegal immigrant who just crossed the border and doesn’t speak any English at all?

    Interesting, because I was paid $3.35/hour to wash dishes back in the day. I’ve also worked for my uncle on the farm, walking beans and bailing hay and straw. I’ve also worked assembly lines bottling softsoap and shampoo, and I’ve boxed flyers for fingerhut, and I’ve baked pizzas. All for not much over minimum wage.

    Maybe it’s my midwest background, but the arguments that such jobs are hard and no American would want to do them really come off as bullshit to me… as I’ve done those jobs before.

    My wife is an immigrant, and so we went through all the hoops too. But since she is educated at went through those hoops, she is making nearly six figures working for a huge investment bank. No illegal immigrant who can’t speak English is going to be able to do that, so why resent them?

    I guess you’d have to come from a working class background to understand.

    That does seem to be the disparity in attitudes that we see from the polling, and as Pb noted why it splits both parties.

  80. 80
    Vladi G says:

    Last month I saw “demonstrations” by immigrant groups as they paraded through the streets of my city by the thousands. It was despicable the way they wore their national colors and sang songs from their native land. I was disgusted to see this display of blatant anti-Americanism. Amazingly, almost all of the press was positive. What really got my goat were the multitudes of flags from their native country. Do they not know what country they’re in? I think it’s perfectly clear what the next step is:

    We need to round up all of the stinkin’ Irish and send them back to Ireland post-haste!

  81. 81
  82. 82
    Doctor Gonzo says:

    I guess you’d have to come from a working class background to understand.

    Ah, but I do. I have washed dishes too. I used to work as a security guard. I used to work the overnight shift in a mail-order warehouse (Fingerhut, as a matter of fact!). So it’s not that I’m not familiar with working for a living. It’s what I do.

    My point continues to be that it sounds like your girlfriend views the time she spent learning English as a waste because other immigrants are here who didn’t do that. It’s not a waste, though, it’s a huge asset, something that lots of illegal immigrants may never have. Again, I simply don’t understand why anybody would resent a group of people who, by and large, have it worse than they do. I don’t resent immigrants. Working two or three jobs at minimum wages so they can send a few hundred dollars home to their families…that’s a lot more than I could do.

  83. 83
    Andrei says:

    Well… speaking as a product of immigration — I’m a second generation Mexican from a typically large Catholic family and a third generation Russian, and all of my anscetors crossed “illegally” to my knowledge since one was running from crime and poverty while the other was fleeing from a revolution — I’d have to say I think a lot of people conflate issues wiith regard to immigration much too wildly.

    We are all immigrants, both legal and illegal, pure and simple. To ignore that aspect of our history is folly. America is a product of immigration, again, legal and illegal. So most people need to get off their high horses thinking they have some universal right to something by the mere fact of having been born to people who fought the real battles to get here for them.

    As to solutions, building a wall or fence between Mexico and the US is absurd. It’s like trying to force chasity on adolescents going through puberty. Deporting 11 million people is also silly. Enforcing laws around employment and documentation however is largely a correct approach, and if people dont like the laws, they should lobby to have them changed.

    One solution I’m surprised the GOP has yet to put into the public meme or broach is that is of investing heavily in Mexico from our business sectors. Both China and India are on a track to become future economic powers, and could push past the US easily, putting us in a precarious position. Why not help Mexico and start setting up things like call centers and more high-tech jobs down there? To alleviate fears of that “big sucking sound” going south, why not simply turn money that was going to China and India and steer it south? Moving jobs to Mexico that are currently going to both China and India would save lots of money in business expenses to boot.

    Yes, it would take some time to bring Mexico up to the level China annd India are at today, especially to get their education system back on track and remove the corruption that destroyed their country the past century, but the problems of immigration will take years to fix to boot. There is no magic pill here. Walls, guest worker programs, etc, all of those don’t address the underlying problem: Mexico’s corruption and poor economic status. We have to fix that to fix this issue.

    The US and Mexico have been tied at the hip for so long, friction and all. But we are two countries that have far more in common in our history than some seem to think. It’s about time we help that country get back on its feet, erradicate it’s corruption, and create a block from Canada to the southern tip of Mexico that allows us in the New World to keep ahead of the curve. In that regard, I suspect everyonee would win.

  84. 84
    ppGaz says:

    Vlad: BTW, I don’t disagree that rounding up the Irish would be a good thing.

    Well, at least Paddy.

  85. 85
    ppGaz says:

    Crap, I meant “bad thing.”

  86. 86
    ppGaz says:

    No, good thing.

    Does it include all Irish, or just the ones with red hair and freckles?

    This is what happens when you try to post and eat at the same time.

  87. 87
    jaime says:

    Yeah, You know how easy it is to lug a nuke on your back accross the desert.

    I saw a talk show where some jackass specualted they could smuggle a nuke inside a BAIL OF MARIJUANA. I can see how that was perfectly logical.

  88. 88
    Vladi G says:

    Does it include all Irish, or just the ones with red hair and freckles?

    Anyone more than 1/4. That way I get to stay.

  89. 89
    Vladi G says:

    Anyone more than 1/4. That way I get to stay.

    Of course, if they want to send me to Ireland on the federal dime, that might be cool too.

  90. 90
    ppGaz says:

    We are all immigrants, both legal and illegal, pure and simple

    That is correct. My grandparents’ parents mostly came from Europe. I’m pretty sure that if you go back one more generation from there, every one of my antecedents came from Europe.

  91. 91
    KCinDC says:

    It’s just another version of the “when I was your age, I walked five miles to school every day, and back, and it was uphill both ways” routine.

    I think it’s more like the anger people feel when they’ve been standing in a line for hours and someone comes along and cuts in front of them.

    At first I thought this issue was a 100% good thing for Democrats, since Republicans were going to have a tough time appealing to the anti-immigrant faction of their party without losing some of the gains they’ve made recently among immigrants. But after a long conversation with a legal-immigrant friend of mine I’m less sure. Like the Other Steve’s girlfriend, he’s concerned about fairness to legal immigrants — like relatives who want to come to the US but are following the rules, which are onerous and take a long time, especially since 9/11. He doesn’t want to see law breakers given preference.

    I don’t see an easy solution.

  92. 92

    My point continues to be that it sounds like your girlfriend views the time she spent learning English as a waste because other immigrants are here who didn’t do that. It’s not a waste, though, it’s a huge asset, something that lots of illegal immigrants may never have. Again, I simply don’t understand why anybody would resent a group of people who, by and large, have it worse than they do. I don’t resent immigrants.

    It’s a reasonable point, but I think the resentment is not over the job, but rather over the opportunity. It’s not so easy to just walk across the border from overseas… you have to do it the hard way.

    It’s impossible to explain. I juste note that she get’s pissed when we walk into Lowes and sees all the signs in Spanish. You don’t see signs in Russian, and yet there are a lot of Russians around this area.

    I just found it interesting because she was far more aggravated by the discussion than I was.

  93. 93
    Davebo says:

    Despite having a huge hispanic population here in Houston you won’t find any street signs in spanish.

    But you will find street signs in both english and vietnamese in an area of town you’d probably refer to as “China Town” yet nobody seems to complain about that.

  94. 94
    Ryan S says:

    Why not help Mexico and start setting up things like call centers and more high-tech jobs down there? To alleviate fears of that “big sucking sound” going south, why not simply turn money that was going to China and India and steer it south? Moving jobs to Mexico that are currently going to both China and India would save lots of money in business expenses to boot.

    We did that, but a funny thing happened. They started making more money and *surprise* wages started to rise. Then China and India came along and said, “We can be cheaper,” and of course the busines followed.

    Also, if you raise up the Mexicans, how will the employers find cheap labor here in the states? It would be better for employers if we keep them poor and hungry to come over here.

    *Please note: I’m playing devils advocate*

  95. 95
    jaime says:

    But you will find street signs in both english and vietnamese in an area of town you’d probably refer to as “China Town” yet nobody seems to complain about that.

    Yeah. I’m tired of looking at menus and having to order “Linguine” and “Marinara” when I really want Noodles and Tomato Sauce.

  96. 96

    I think it’s more like the anger people feel when they’ve been standing in a line for hours and someone comes along and cuts in front of them.

    EXACTLY! I hate that. I absolutely positively fucking hate that.

    And you know what? I won’t do it myself. I have friends that say “Hey, let’s just cut in line” and I say “No, that’s rude.” But today, our society is just overrun by line breakers. I mean it’s incredible. I had some asshat kid do it to me the other day at the movie theatre.

    Like the Other Steve’s girlfriend, he’s concerned about fairness to legal immigrants—like relatives who want to come to the US but are following the rules, which are onerous and take a long time, especially since 9/11. He doesn’t want to see law breakers given preference.

    Exactly!

    I don’t see an easy solution.

    And once again, we agree.

  97. 97
    Doctor Gonzo says:

    It’s impossible to explain. I juste note that she get’s pissed when we walk into Lowes and sees all the signs in Spanish. You don’t see signs in Russian, and yet there are a lot of Russians around this area.

    Yeah, it must be impossible to explain, because I don’t get it. :)

    I’m sure if enough people complained to Lowes and they thought they were losing money as a result, they would put up signs in Russian. More likely, Lowes makes signs in Spanish and English for all or most of their stores, simply because it’s cheaper than having two sets of signs: one set in English only and one set in English/Spanish. Once again, it comes down to simple economics.

    Signs in other languages and the like are such little unimportant issues, so it really confuses me when people take them personally. Since I am all about sharing information and making people feel at home, I really wouldn’t care if signs were translated into ten languages, but since space and money are not infinite, translating things into the most prevalent non-English language makes the most sense.

  98. 98
    Perry Como says:

    Anyone more than 1/4. That way I get to stay.

    I hear they have really good beef in Ireland and I’ve never been to my “home country” (third generation), so I’m not adverse to the idea.

  99. 99
    Andrei says:

    Then China and India came along and said, “We can be cheaper,” and of course the busines followed.

    Possibly true, but not a means to block continued effort.

    Look, it costs how much to fly people to India to do work for a few weeks at a pop? Any middle manager flying to India and back twice in one year is most people’s salaries in this country. The cost of doing business in Asia due to the physical gap is actually reasonably expensive, even in the information age. Whereas Mexico is just a short hop away.

    The real problem for Mexico is the level of education and experience needed in the kinds of jobs that are currently being shipped to India and China. However, Mexico is like any other country, with a vast history of intellecutalls and artists that needs to be revived. The smart ones are there ready to bring the rest back out of the massive problems created by corruption over the past century, but they need our help.

    Remember, right before 9/11, V. Fox was ready to try and get Mexico back on track with Bush. We’ve been severly distracted the past six years, but the potential is still there.

    Further, I’d expect a strategy that has Mexico and Canada act more like our 51 and 52 second states is what the future holds for us, espeically if we want to even think we can compete with two countries who have 4 times as many people as the entire North American continent. That’s a numbers game pure and simple and we lose. America at its heart is the Constitution and the ideas behind it, not the soil itself. If we can turn the New World into the real New World, then that seems to be in all our interests, right?

  100. 100
    Vladi G says:

    It’s not so easy to just walk across the border from overseas… you have to do it the hard way.

    It may not be easy to walk, but it’s not that hard to get a visa for a visit and just overstay it, which is how a hell of a lot of illegal immigrants for Europe do it.

    I juste note that she get’s pissed when we walk into Lowes and sees all the signs in Spanish. You don’t see signs in Russian, and yet there are a lot of Russians around this area.

    First, if she speaks English, then why the hell does she care. Second, does anyone else think it’s funny that it’s the people from the party who claims to be all “the free market can fix everything” get all bent out of shape when the free market doesn’t do exactly what they want it to do? No signs in Russian? Tough shit. Apparently those business owners don’t think it’s worth the expense. Don’t like it? Open your own damn business and put up Russian signs.

  101. 101
    Doctor Gonzo says:

    I think it’s more like the anger people feel when they’ve been standing in a line for hours and someone comes along and cuts in front of them.

    EXACTLY! I hate that. I absolutely positively fucking hate that.

    I can certainly understand how people can see it like that, but in my mind, illegal immigrants aren’t cutting in front of legal immigrants. If they are cutting in front of line at all, they are cutting in front of a different line entirely.

    Again, legal immigrants get lots of benefits that illegal immigrants never will. Sure, it took years and lots of money to jump through the hoops so my wife could get her green card. But now that she has it, she can get benefits that illegal immigrants can’t. She got financial aid for her college degree. She will probably be able to get her Social Security when she retires. She can apply to any job and know that she will check out; she doesn’t have to play games with fake or non-existent documentation.

    Illegal immigrants aren’t getting all of the benefits of immigration without waiting; they are getting a much smaller set of benefits, if any at all. Considering how little illegal immigrants actually get with what they are willing to pay to get those meager benefits (up to and including their lives), it’s hard for me to be angry at them. I’m just angry that our immigration and employment system is set up this way.

  102. 102
    Phillip J. Birmingham says:

    I’ve noticed that lots of businesses have bilingual signs out there; curse them for wanting to reach customers and make money!

    Hell, the Home Depot I used to go to (Niles, IL) had signs in English, Spanish, and Polish!

  103. 103
    Vladi G says:

    Open your own damn business and put up Russian signs.

    Or better yet, open a business making Russian signs and sell them to all of the places that won’t put them up. You can do a great job convincing them why they need them. Or hell, you could give them away for free and make the world a better place for your girlfriend!

  104. 104
    Pooh says:

    This is what happens when you try to post and eat at the same time.

    Let me channel Par for a moment and say that since all you post is poop, you just admitted that you eat pieces of shit for breakfast.

    SHOOTER!

  105. 105
    SeesThroughIt says:

    As to solutions, building a wall or fence between Mexico and the US is absurd. It’s like trying to force chasity on adolescents going through puberty.

    Great analogy, particularly considering Republicans favor both “solutions.”

  106. 106
    ppGaz says:

    I think it’s more like the anger people feel when they’ve been standing in a line for hours and someone comes along and cuts in front of them.

    No. It’s that someone comes along and gets into a line that is now shorter. They didn’t “cut in front”. They crawled over a border and ate shit and barked at the moon to get here.

    Jesus.

  107. 107
    RSA says:

    I think it’s more like the anger people feel when they’ve been standing in a line for hours and someone comes along and cuts in front of them.

    Well, unless the people you read about who are angriest about illegal immigration are mainly those in the process of becoming citizens, I don’t think it’s much like that. It’s more like, “Hey, my grandfather waited in line for two days for his concert tickets, and now you want to just go online and order them? No way!”

  108. 108
    ppGaz says:

    Let me channel Par for a moment

    Sad. I knew you when you were somebody.

  109. 109
    KCinDC says:

    Doctor Gonzo (12:59), it sounds like you’re saying that the US is becoming a bilingual country but that it’s not because of lack of assimilation but because of sheer numbers of immigrants. If that’s the case, it does seem to be an important difference between this wave of immigration and earlier ones, and more important, I don’t think the reasons for the rise of Spanish matter to those who are disturbed by it. They just don’t want to be surrounded by people they can’t communicate with.

  110. 110
    Andrei says:

    Other Steve. I’m a decendent of Russian immigrants. My name is unmistakably Russian. But being half Mexican, I can say honestly to your girlfriend that she would best do to be more empathic to more American history.

    There’s a reason 1/3 of the states — like Texas, California, New Mexico, Oregon, Nevada, Colorado, etc — are spanish. And why cities like San Antonio, San Diego, Los Angeles, Santa Fe and San Francisco are also spanish.

    The US and Mexico have interwoven histories, wars and shared cultural experiences. Far more so than we have with any other culture or country. Tell her to get over it. If she wants to be an American, she inherits this aspect of our country whether she likes it or not. And the more she stops being resentful of this, the more she can be part of the solution.

  111. 111
    ppGaz says:

    Andrei …. great post.

  112. 112
    Pb says:

    Doctor Gonzo,

    I simply don’t understand why anybody would resent a group of people who, by and large, have it worse than they do.

    They’re taking all our poverty.

    The Other Steve,

    I understand why your girlfriend is angry, and indeed a lot of legal immigrants are angry at illegal immigrants for these same reasons. Other entirely legitimate targets for her anger (and mine) include INS (they are simply incapable of doing their job), Congress and the President (they are responsible for INS), and the corporations and people who knowingly profit from illegal immigration and the exploitation of illegal immigrants in the first place.

  113. 113
    KCinDC says:

    RSA, I wasn’t talking about the third- or fourth- or whatever-generation people. Hell, most of the ones who are angriest about illegal immigrants are never going to vote Democratic anyway. I was talking about my Bush-hating Democratic-voting friend who came here from India when he was 11 but still has plenty of relatives back in India, as well as legal immigrant relatives who aren’t yet citizens.

    Doctor Gonzo, I don’t think the “line jumping” applies to illegal immigrants in general. It applies to the idea of instituting a special route to citizenship for them.

  114. 114
    ppGaz says:

    It applies to the idea of instituting a special route to citizenship for them.

    It’s just a different route, not a “special” one. And there is no practical or acceptable alternative to it.

    Once they are here, and in the midst of assimilation, the only reasonable thing to do, and by far the best thing to do, is to fix the problem in the most sensible and humane way.

    The people who stand by the side of the road — both figuratively, and literally as we saw last week, and hold up the “Go Home” signs — are, frankly, idiots.

    They are not going home, so get the hell over it. Grow up for crissakes.

  115. 115
    Andrei says:

    empathic = empathetic. Ugh I hate typing. Google is littered with my entire history of never taking typing class when I should have as a kid. Also, Thanks ppGaz.

  116. 116
    ppGaz says:

    Before I forget, as one who has lived in Arizona lo these many years and knows JD Hayworth from when he, like Rush Limbaugh, was a fat medicore guy in broadcasting, and knows that JD never met a divisive issue that he could use to carve out votes for himself that he didn’t like … I wouldn’t get too giggly about lining up behind him and his “sends the wrong message” approach to policy here.

    Hayworth is mostly looking for cover for his Bush-Bonesmokers’ Club membership in the coming election cycle.

  117. 117
    jill says:

    When did an immigrant who doesn’t assimilate ever hurt you as a native? Not assimilating hurts the immigrant. Get off your racist high horses now.

  118. 118
    Tads says:

    Natives are funny. They all come over and try to be Americans. Well, I was a native living in God’s world. They bought my world and had me made. All types of fun now.

    You owe the Mexiczns for puttingthem in organized crime. Notice no one will pay.

  119. 119

    The US and Mexico have interwoven histories, wars and shared cultural experiences. Far more so than we have with any other culture or country. Tell her to get over it. If she wants to be an American, she inherits this aspect of our country whether she likes it or not. And the more she stops being resentful of this, the more she can be part of the solution.

    Agreed to some extent. Actually I’ve kind of had fun at her making fun of other people’s accents and such. It’s kind of funny just how much she has assimilated the American mindset. :-)

    Even so, it’s rather difficult to be sympathetic towards illegal immigration when there are so many people who want to be here because it’s America, and their homeland has really gone to shit.

  120. 120

    I understand why your girlfriend is angry, and indeed a lot of legal immigrants are angry at illegal immigrants for these same reasons. Other entirely legitimate targets for her anger (and mine) include INS (they are simply incapable of doing their job), Congress and the President (they are responsible for INS), and the corporations and people who knowingly profit from illegal immigration and the exploitation of illegal immigrants in the first place.

    Agreed.

    That’s what I’ve been saying. The reason we have illegal immigration is because the companies want them here.

  121. 121
    ppGaz says:

    It’s difficult for me to be sympathetic to the “Go homers” when they are just being riled up by crass politicians.

    Crass politicians who want to do a “Look, a jackalope” rather than have people see how completely they are giving away the country to the rich and powerful, at every turn.

    God forbid some poor immigrant get a $4/hr job. Get riled up. Meanwhile, rich Americans are getting huge tax cuts at your expense.

    Keep it up. Maybe we can turn this thread into 500 posts yet.

  122. 122

    Well, unless the people you read about who are angriest about illegal immigration are mainly those in the process of becoming citizens, I don’t think it’s much like that.

    My girlfriend is still waiting for Immigration to let her know on her citizenship request. She’s been here almost seven years now on a permanent resident greencard.

    If this bill passes in Congress, and she still hasn’t heard from immigration she says she’s going to claim she is here illegally because it might help her get citizenship faster.

  123. 123
    ppGaz says:

    The reason we have illegal immigration is because the companies

    No, the reason is mainly because the governments and citizens of both countries want it that way. Until the politicians decide that they can use the issue for their own narrow purposes, like now. They’s stir up some votes, and then in two years the issue will be under the rug again.

  124. 124
    RSA says:

    KCinDC and Other Steve, I take your points. Obviously I don’t know whom you talk to about immigration issues, and I can’t judge their degree of anger about the current situation.

  125. 125

    It’s difficult for me to be sympathetic to the “Go homers” when they are just being riled up by crass politicians.

    It’s difficult for me to take you seriously, when you try to equate everyone who has problems with our immigration stance as a “Go homer”.

    I think we need John Cole here to go all John Cole on you and explain how you’re part of the problem.

  126. 126
  127. 127
    ppGaz says:

    when you try to equate everyone who has problems

    That’s right, Steve. We’ve labored through a whole fucking thread about your girlfriend, but I’m the one who is doing the over-generalization here.

    Fuck you.

  128. 128
    ppGaz says:

    If you aren’t talking like a “Go homer” then just what the fuck is the point you are trying to make here?

    That your girlfriend is getting less of a good deal than some Mexicans might get?

  129. 129
    Steve says:

    I was ready to make comment #2 on this thread, when I got distracted by work, and now I see there are 123 comments. Wow, I guess that’s what happens when there’s only one blog post today.

    Glancing through the comments, I see how awful it is that some places have signs printed in both Spanish and English. Yeah, those Mexicans, why can’t they assimilate like my grandpappy did. When I think of how unique the Mexicans are in this regard, I think of this.

    I think you have to really, really stretch to believe that Latino immigrants are coddled by our society. Yeah, first-generation people may or may not have the time to learn English, not to mention the infield-fly rule. But an overwhelming majority of their kids do, and that’s the real point. That’s why it’s worth educating their kids – at the end of the day, they grow up American, and they contribute to American society just as much as the rest of us do. In fact, if they don’t waste their adult lives commenting on blogs, arguably they contribute more.

  130. 130
    KC says:

    As a Californian, I just find it difficult to get worked up about all this. As long as farmers don’t want to pay decent wages and people don’t want to pay more for food, I see illegal immigration as inevitable.

  131. 131

    So in other news…

    Governor Ryan found guilty on all counts.

    This goes back a few years, before Jack Abramhoff, basically launched from Ryan giving a truck drivers license to a guy who paid him a bribe who then got into an accident.

    Although to some degree, this is Chicago politics as usual, it’s also a sad example of modern Republicanism of winning elections to profit your pocket. :-(

  132. 132

    Yeah, first-generation people may or may not have the time to learn English, not to mention the infield-fly rule. But an overwhelming majority of their kids do, and that’s the real point. That’s why it’s worth educating their kids – at the end of the day, they grow up American, and they contribute to American society just as much as the rest of us do.

    How do they learn English if the schools are educating them using Spanish?

    Just curious.

    You make a valid point, but I think what some people are simply saying is that sometimes the way to teach someone to learn to ride a bike without training wheels, is to take the training wheels off.

  133. 133

    If you aren’t talking like a “Go homer” then just what the fuck is the point you are trying to make here?

    What’s the point? You’ve already decided everybody who wants to discourage further illegal immigration is a “Go Homer”. You’ve already poisoned the debate.

  134. 134
    ppGaz says:

    Wake up, Steve. Look at John’s original article at the top of this thread.

    Not only are the crass politicians out to get you riled up, they are telling you right to your face that that’s what they intend to do.

    To get votes, at the expense of turning people against people. To deflect from the fact that they are running the worst and most corrupt government ever.

    And you want to get pissed at ME for telling you that?

    Get clue, man.

  135. 135
    Halffasthero says:

    I still can’t make up my mind where I stand on this whole imigration mess

    Jumping in here late. I am all for immigration. I am against illegal immigration. The people who are feeding this are the corporations who know it is a great way to not pay overhead. What are these people going to do? Complain?

    I imagine this has been brought up already, but the easiest (and unused) solution is start going after the CEO’s who allow this to happen. They are literally swarming into this country and overloading the border states without any means to pay for the costs of keeping them here. Additional hospital costs, additional schooling, law enforcement etc. A few dollars an hour to the worker, push them out the door and are bagging the profits from it. The companies who hire these people are ripping us off by not paying any of the overhead costs of these people, we are.

    Georgia was having a fit over the fact that Wal-Mart was not providiing benefits to a large number of their employees and sending them to the state at a cost of millions. Imagine what this is doing to state budgets.

    Ultimately, I would like to have people come here for the better life. It needs to be done legally however and the abuses this is allowing is starting to hurt more than help.

    Anyway, that is my 2 cents. I didn’t have a chance to review so I hope there are not too many errors.

  136. 136
    LITBMueller says:

    Good reasons to have signs in both English and Spanish:

    Spanish is spoken by almost 400 million people worldwide, which is reason enough to learn the language. But it’s even more compelling when you realize that about half of the population in the Western Hemisphere speaks Spanish, making it the primary language for as many people as English in this region of the world. The entire continent of South America speaks primarily Spanish (aside from Brazil), as does just about all of Central America, Mexico and Latin America – over 15 countries in total. In addition, within the United States, Spanish is the second most widely spoken language after English – by a very wide margin…

    In addition to in the U.S., Spanish is also gaining importance in Europe, where it is quickly becoming the foreign language of choice after English. It’s fairly obvious to see why. First, by learning Spanish fluently you can often understand enough Italian and French to get by in communicating with people who speak those languages. Secondly, overall, Spanish is the fourth most commonly spoken language in the world. Aside from English, the other 2 languages ahead of it are generally not widely spoken in either Europe or the Western Hemisphere – they are Chinese and Hindustani which are limited mainly to China and India respectively.
    […]
    …the United States has the fifth largest hispanic population worldwide (trailing Mexico, Colombia, Spain and Argentina – just barely behind Spain itself and Argentina).

    Seems reasonable to me!

    So…should we be surprised when we walk around places named Los Angeles that we signs in Spanish?

  137. 137
    ppGaz says:

    You’ve already decided everybody who wants to discourage

    Why don’t you become a Republican, since you lie like fucking Darrell?

    The fact that I described Go Homers, who are real and not in my imagination, does not translate into an assertion that everyone on the other side is a Go Homer.

    The question for you, once you stop trying to get us to believe that this whole issue hangs on the fate of your girlfriend, is why you are writing crap that repeats the talking points of the Go Homers?

  138. 138
    Steve says:

    How do they learn English if the schools are educating them using Spanish?

    I don’t know, I guess it magically happens. 79 percent of Mexican immigrants who came to the U.S. as children speak English well or very well. 92 percent of second-generation Hispanic immigrants speak English well or very well.

    If I moved to another country where I didn’t speak the language, I’d love it if my kids could be taught in their native tongue. Not because I don’t think they should learn the local language, but because I don’t want them to get behind in math, science, and so forth for however many years it takes them to get fluent. Not every immigrant group is large enough or has the resources to make that happen, but hey, it would certainly be my ideal scenario if it were possible.

  139. 139
    Vladi G says:

    You make a valid point, but I think what some people are simply saying is that sometimes the way to teach someone to learn to ride a bike without training wheels, is to take the training wheels off.

    You’re really crappy at coming up with analogies, aren’t you? Do you not realize that schools teach them English while also teaching substantive classes in Spanish? Do you not realize why they do that? It’s not because they don’t want them to assimilate. It’s because they’d like fourth and fifth graders to be able to do math and such at fourth and fifth grade levels while also learning English so that by the time they reach sixth and seventh grade, they’ve not only learned the language, but they also have skills in other classes commensurate with their peers. It’s because they don’t want a bunch of 12 and 13 year olds stuck doing third grade math. Christ, I shouldn’t even have to be explaining this.

  140. 140
    RSA says:

    I am all for immigration. I am against illegal immigration.

    I read this quite a bit. My reaction is, “So would you be in favor of no immigration controls whatsoever?” That would certainly clear up the legal/illegal distinction.

    So far, the reasons people have raised in this thread of comments for being against illegal immigration have not been especially convincing (to me, at least): issues of perceived fairness, not wanting to learn Spanish, perhaps the fear that someone else might take one’s minimum wage job. . .have I missed anything?

  141. 141
    ppGaz says:

    have I missed anything

    Not really. But watch this space. The demagogues (the Hayworths, for example) are just getting warmed up.

  142. 142
    KCinDC says:

    RSA, I’m surprised that you’re describing those disagreeing with you as “being against illegal immigration”. Does that mean you’re in favor of illegal immigration? I thought this discussion was about what to do about illegal immigration (punctuated by occasional accusations of racism and Republicanism), not about whether it was a good thing. Surely the illegal status isn’t a good thing for the undocumented workers, right?

  143. 143
    Zifnab says:

    So far, the reasons people have raised in this thread of comments for being against illegal immigration have not been especially convincing (to me, at least): issues of perceived fairness, not wanting to learn Spanish, perhaps the fear that someone else might take one’s minimum wage job. . .have I missed anything?

    It’s a classic Republican non-issue. Take a relatively harmless portion of the population – gays, liberals, illegal immigrants, the homeless, the French, what have you – and pass a law specifically designed to rile them up. Then, when the inevitable outcry of the disenfranchised comes welling up, people get to act all offended – how dare those illegals fly Mexican flags, or those damn dirty gays try to adopt children, or those liberals try to participate in conversation. Suddenly, you’ve got a “threat” you can rally your base against.

  144. 144
    Halffasthero says:

    My reaction is, “So would you be in favor of no immigration controls whatsoever?” That would certainly clear up the legal/illegal distinction.

    I am not sure how to respond to that. It so profoundly misses the point that I don’t even know where to begin.

  145. 145
    KCinDC says:

    Zifnab, the tricky bit is that unlike with the gays, there’s a significant split within the Republican Party on the issue. The corporate Republicans didn’t care much one way or the other about same-sex marriage, but they definitely care about being able to exploit undocumented workers, and their approach to the issue is very different from that of the anti-immigrant Republicans (who probably overlap significantly with the anti-gay faction).

  146. 146
    RSA says:

    RSA, I’m surprised that you’re describing those disagreeing with you as “being against illegal immigration”.

    I didn’t describe anyone this way because they disagree with me, but rather to find out what people’s reservations are about immigration of any sort. Why exactly is legal immigration okay but illegal immigration not okay? Is it just a numerical game, that our society can only support so many? Is it a “following the rules” issue? I’d like to have a better understanding of what people are really upset about, rather than guessing about nativism, economic fears, or whatever.

    And as to my “legalize ’em all” proposal:

    I am not sure how to respond to that. It so profoundly misses the point that I don’t even know where to begin.

    That’s the trouble, obviously–I have no idea what “the point” is.

  147. 147
    VidaLoca says:

    Sorry to be showing up late to the party —

    Just wanted to offer the comment that I used to live in a neighborhood in Milwaukee that had a large fraction of people originally from Puerto Rico, plus a slightly smaller contingent of folks originally from Mexico. Partly becuase of the demographics, the local elementary school was designed around an intensive Spanish-English immersion program of the sort you mentioned, Vladi. And this

    It’s because they don’t want a bunch of 12 and 13 year olds stuck doing third grade math.

    is indeed part of the logic of that place, and part of its success (in a city where success in public schools can be hard to come by).

    But another part of the reason it works is the fact that they’re not forcing anyone to assimilate. They take the several different Latino cultures that come to the place as being worthwhile in their own right, and worthy of respect. And the anglo kids that go to that place (a majority of the school population) take Spanish; some of the classes are taught in Spanish and some in English.

    Which seems OK to me. I’m not comfortable with the demand that everyone who comes here be “just like us” [who got here a few years before] in order to fit in.

  148. 148

    Not only are the crass politicians out to get you riled up, they are telling you right to your face that that’s what they intend to do.

    No. It’s actually a pretty huge issue in the heartland and has been for quite some time. Go to Iowa, and you’ll find meat packing plants who have been bussing illegals up from the border, working them until they’re injured and then kicking ’em out on the streets without healthcare. This is something that has just started happening in the past 10 years.

    The people have been complaining, it’s just that now the Republicans are swinging around so desperately for an issue that they finally came across this one that polls well.

    That being said, it wouldn’t matter if 70% said “Send them all home”, that’s not going to turn into votes on November. It’s just not that important of an issue. Everybody agrees that something ought to be done, but nobody is passionate about it to make it happen.

    What the local people are more concerned with is the costs that they are having to bear because of the corporations. Namely the healthcare, the schooling, etc. Privatize the profits, socialize the costs. Typoical Republicanism.

  149. 149
    KCinDC says:

    RSA, are you in favor of no immigration controls whatsoever?

    I see two separate issues. Illegal immigration is a problem because of its illegality. Those who come in illegally are subject to abuses because their illegal status makes them less able to contact authorities.

    How many immigrants there should be, and who they should be, is a separate issue. There should be changes to immigration laws, but I’d assume that almost everyone agrees that whatever immigrants come in should be coming in legally — even if your position requires abolishing all immigration restrictions.

  150. 150

    How many immigrants there should be, and who they should be, is a separate issue. There should be changes to immigration laws, but I’d assume that almost everyone agrees that whatever immigrants come in should be coming in legally—even if your position requires abolishing all immigration restrictions.

    To add to that. By legally, I would prefer if people coming here had the opportunity to attain citizenship. Not just come here on a work visa solely for the purpose to get cheap labor out of them.

  151. 151
    RSA says:

    RSA, are you in favor of no immigration controls whatsoever?

    To be honest, I’m in John Cole’s position; I think more immigration is probably better than less, but I’m open to the possibility that I just haven’t thought everything through. Thanks for clarifying one issue, though: it’s possible to be worried about illegal immigration just because it puts illegal immigrants in an untenable position.

  152. 152
    CadilaqJaq says:

    The illegal immigraton issue on out southern border will not be solved in anyone’s lifetime that I know of until the class warfare being waged in Mexico between the “Haves” (the Spanish heritage political elites) and the “Have-nots” (the indegenous Mexican Indians and Central American migrants)is handled; which doesn’t look like anytime soon.

    Check out wideawake.org’s website for the details but there is a decades long ongoing practice in Mexico where the government “is engaging in a sanitized version of Stalin era collectivization and ethnic cleansing directed at the indigenous, illiterate citizens of Indian ethnicity. These, along with many other Mexican citizens are being encouraged to illegally enter the United States where they will pose no further drain on Mexican social services and instead send remittances back to Mexico totaling over ten billion dollars per year.”

    It goes on to say: “The Pew Hispanic Center has one of the best visual studies describing who the current migrants, both legal and illegal are. Where they are coming from, where they are going, what levels of education they have. It’s clear from this report that a massive influx of illegal immigrants, mostly uneducated and primarily from Mexico, has been taking place since the late 1990’s.

    “In Reframing Mexican Migration As a Multi-Ethnic Process, Jonathan Fox of the University of California, Santa Cruz provides perhaps the best detailed and scholarly description of the ethnic makeup and geographic source of the illegal migrant wave. He documents that the poorest of the poor, the Mexican Indian indigenous populations are being removed from their ancestral lands and deprived of their heritage and encouraged to migrate.

    “At least since the Salinas presidency (1988-1994), the Mexican government’s rural development strategy has been based on the assumption that a large proportion of the rural poor would leave their homes and move either to the cities or to the United States. The government abandoned support for family farming and peasant agriculture became a target of welfare policy rather than production support — a shift that weakened the economic base of indigenous communities….

    In the arena of Mexico’s dominant national political culture, both indigenous peoples and cross- border migrants (from Central America) have long been seen, especially by political elites, as less than full citizens.

    “In Mexico political rights are systematically denied to both migrants and indigenous people. Changes in official political discourse notwithstanding, even a quick review of the dominant mass media shows that they also remain culturally excluded from the national imaginary.

    “At the same time as these native peoples are being uprooted, Mexico is accused by The United Nations Committee against Racial Discrimination of engaging in a practice of forced sterilizations of these same peoples.

    And the U.S. thinks that 11-million illegals today is a problem? It ain’t gonna get better.

  153. 153
    KCinDC says:

    The Other Steve, I agree. The idea of “guest workers” creeps me out. They seem to much like indentured servants. Our country used to believe in people coming here, working hard, and becoming citizens, and I hope we can continue to be that way.

    RSA, I agree with that position, but of course it doesn’t go very far in explaining. Also, I wouldn’t describe myself as “worried” about illegal immigration. I mainly got into this discussion by explaining what I understand people who were worried to be thinking. But it’s too easy for people to fall into a black-and-white way of viewing those on the other side of a discussion — and that seems a particularly bad way to handle a topic like this, where neither “left” nor “right” is anywhere close to monolithic on the issue. Thanks for not behaving like some of the other commenters.

    I wonder if part of the immigration problem is that it used to be possible for unskilled people to immigrate legally (but perhaps that was mainly before there were any immigration laws). Now that doesn’t seem to be possible unless you’re a political refugee.

  154. 154
    jaime says:

    . They are literally swarming into this country and overloading the border states without any means to pay for the costs of keeping them here

    State Tax. Income tax. Sales tax.

  155. 155

    Program suggestion: I would like to hear the comments of the posters here about the Duke lacrosse/stripper story here.

  156. 156
    RSA says:

    The idea of “guest workers” creeps me out.

    Me too, KCinDC. When I was living in Germany some years ago, it was possible to see the idea up close, with Turkish immigrants. They were definitely second class citizens, so to speak. Not something I’d like to see here.

  157. 157
    ppGaz says:

    No. It’s actually a pretty huge

    So, what is it exactly that you think the government should do, Steve?

    I’m talking about the “11-12m illegals.”

  158. 158
    jaime says:

    They were definitely second class citizens, so to speak. Not something I’d like to see here.

    Too late.

  159. 159
    KCinDC says:

    Bob, I’m not sure what you’re suggesting, but I don’t see why it’s necessary for me to have opinions about court cases that I’m not connected with and have no real information on. They can keep Nancy Grace in business, but I’m perfectly willing to ignore them until I’m given a reason to pay attention.

  160. 160
    RSA says:

    Yeah, but not so well institutionalized.

  161. 161
    KCinDC says:

    Jaime, at least the abuse of illegal immigrants is illegal. Guest workers’ status would have the blessing of law, so while they might be a little better off than illegal immigrants are currently, we’d be saying it’s A-OK for their employers to exploit them and ship them back home if they cause trouble.

  162. 162
    KC says:

    ppGaz,

    Why bother asking what the government should do? You know the answer: put them all in jail. We’ll hire a bunch of illegal immigrants to build some hardcore prisons at less than cost then incarcerate them and their families. Don’t worry, we would only jail adults, kids would go back to their home countries.

    It’s sick shit, I know, but let’s be honest, that’s what some of these wingnuts think.

  163. 163
    jaime says:

    we’d be saying it’s A-OK for their employers to exploit them and ship them back home if they cause trouble.

    Oh, I know. There was a great frontline about Tankman and Tiennamen Square and the Chinese economic/ social contract. Their shining cities are built by “guest workers” not allowed to partake in the prosperity they helped create.

  164. 164
    Zifnab says:

    The illegal immigraton issue on out southern border will not be solved in anyone’s lifetime that I know of until the class warfare being waged in Mexico between the “Haves” (the Spanish heritage political elites) and the “Have-nots” (the indegenous Mexican Indians and Central American migrants)

    It’s rather funny if you look at it that way. The “illegal immigrants” that are so often villified are, in fact, decendents of the original Native Americans that populated the Americas in the days of Columbas and Cortez.

    The countries they are trying to immigrate to – Texas and California primarily – are members of the original Spanish Empire which later rebelled and became Mexico. From an ethics standpoint and a “we got here first” perspective, this is truly their land.

  165. 165
    The Other Steve says:

    When I was living in Germany some years ago, it was possible to see the idea up close, with Turkish immigrants. They were definitely second class citizens, so to speak. Not something I’d like to see here.

    If the program works half as well as it has for France… it’s really going to be a boon for the American auto makers.

    Ok, that was snark. :-)

  166. 166
    ppGaz says:

    let’s be honest, that’s what some of these wingnuts think.

    Yes, true. But Steve is not a wingnut. I am interested in what he thinks we should do.

  167. 167
    jaime says:

    It’s rather funny if you look at it that way. The “illegal immigrants” that are so often villified are, in fact, decendents of the original Native Americans that populated the Americas in the days of Columbas and Cortez.

    Well, America stole it from them fair and square.

  168. 168
    KCinDC says:

    ppGaz, thanks for recognizing that Steve’s not a wingnut. I hope you’ll extend the same to me.

    I don’t know what the government should do. I’m trying to figure that out. What is it that you think it should do? Ignore the issue because it’s a Republican talking point? Grant amnesty to all illegal immigrants and then do the same in another 10 or 20 years, and another 10 or 20 years, for the indefinite future?

    I’m not trying to be snarky. That’s an honest question.

  169. 169
    ppGaz says:

    What is it that you think it should do?

    I’m being brief only because of time, not to be short with you.

    a) Agree that border control and fate of existing illegals is two separate issues.

    b) Create reasonable and responsible path to legal status for current illegals

    c) Admit that unless border controls improve, we will, as you suggest, be looking at the same problem every 5-10 years from now on.

    d) Make no committment to illegals who enter after the cutoff date for the current program. Future immigrants will be subject to the political will of the people at some time in the future.

    e) Admit that immigration is a resource, not a liability, and maximize the value of that resource.

    f) Reaffirm the inscription on the Statue of Liberty and state clearly what it means.

  170. 170
    Rome Again says:

    Re: the bilingual signs—travel nearly anywhere else in the world and you’ll also find bilingual signs.

    Here in Florida, there are quit a few billboards and such that are strictly in Spanish.

    Here in Florida, there are whole careers (construction crew laborers such as “roofers”, “landscapers” and “paverers” that refuse to hire any Americans.

    Here in Florida, if an American doesn’t know Spanish, he cannot be a construction crew supervisor.

    I’m not saying I don’t want them here, I just think that the impact they are making is different than when other groups came to America seeking opportunity.

    I would get along better with them if they would:

    1. not break into spanish secret talk in front of me while I’m around (I see this a lot)
    2. stand in line like everyone else (I get the feeling they don’t know what standing in line is all about)
    3. live one family to a house like the law states (instead of two or three families).

    These people are getting away with doing things I cannot get away with. If they would “assimilate” I would have absolutely no problem with them being here.

  171. 171
    Zifnab says:

    What is it that you think it should do? Ignore the issue because it’s a Republican talking point? Grant amnesty to all illegal immigrants and then do the same in another 10 or 20 years, and another 10 or 20 years, for the indefinite future?

    I’m not trying to be snarky. That’s an honest question.

    A good start would be to streamline the immigration process. Currently, immigrating to the US is a very expensive and difficult process. No one wants to wait 10-12 years on a list before being denied entry for misfiling an application. I think Congress needs to deal with the human rights issues inherent in immigration first, by cracking down on corporations like Yum! Brand Foods that pick their tomatoes with slave labor.

    Guest worker permits are acceptable so long as they allow – and, in fact, encourage permenant residence. The illegal immigrant conundrum and the social security crisis look like two problems that could easily nip each other in the bud. But you want every immigrant – guest worker or otherwise – paying taxes. An illegal has very little incentive to file with the IRS, and 11 million working Americans paying taxes can’t possibly do our deficit any harm.

    America is a long way from “full”. We have one third the population of India and three times the acreage. If all of Mexico wanted to displace itself into America’s heartland, we could physically handle it. As it stands, our southern neighbor is hemoraging smart, industrious, hard working, entreupenurial spirits. We’d be stupid to stick them in trucks and toss them back over the boarder.

  172. 172
    Kirk Spencer says:

    Rome again,

    Could you please cite the statute that says “one family to a house”? Because while I don’t think that exists, it’s something you can clearly prove as true. And until you can cite it, I’ll assume all the other facts you claim are equally… hyperbolic. If you do demonstrate it, then I’ll grant willingness to believe the rest have basis in fact as well.

  173. 173
    jaime says:

    1. not break into spanish secret talk in front of me while I’m around (I see this a lot)

    1.) Maybe if you didn’t come across as a paranoid cracker ass, they wouldn’t have to talk their non-American talk around you.

    2) “Those people” that burden you with their spic talk probably voted for both Bush’s. Ass.

  174. 174
    KCinDC says:

    Rome Again, you think there might be a possibility that living two or three families to a house has something to do with what they can afford rather than a perverse preference for being overcrowded and a desire to annoy you personally?

  175. 175
    jaime says:

    Rome is the perfect example of the “debate” on government talk radio.

    It’s never about a fix to the solution amiable to both sides. It’s never about the political and economic problems in the U.S. AND Mexico. It somehow degenerates into numbnuts like Rome spouting about how they want ‘those people’ out of ‘my country’.

  176. 176
    ppGaz says:

    they want ‘those people’ out of ‘my country’.

    Rome will have to take that up with you, but I can tell you that we have plenty of “those people out of my country” types here in Arizona. (Thus, Hayworth).

    I was at the doctor’s office a week ago today, and a woman in the waiting room was going on about “those people”. All of us had just driven through the fringes of a very large demonstration (the one you saw on tv) to get to our appointments.

    Well, I pointed out to her, if you look over there at the wall you will see pictures of doctors, at least two of whom (out of six) are immigrants. One of them is my doctor, a fellow whom I consider to be a god, and for whose services I consider myself lucky and blessed beyond your wildest imagination. Hello? What on earth are you complaining about?

    She had nothing more to say. Of course, we were talking about legal immigrants in that context.

    However, until quite recently (the last five years or so) the combined legal and illegal immigrant rate, as a percentage of total population, has been steady for most of the last century except for the period of WWII. So I am not quite ready to declare war on immigrants over the current “crisis.”

  177. 177

    Off topic: The Electronic Freedom Foundation has a lawsuit about AT&T giving the National Security Agency rooms in its switching stations in four west coast cities and access to its telephone and internet traffic in 2003 so that the NSA could run vacuum-type operations.

    One would presume that other phone companies in other cities have done the same.

    This lawsuit seems to be the smoking gun about the Bush Administration’s scrapping of the 4th Amendment. How come there is all this silence? Why isn’t anyone interested?

    It’s also the merging of government and corporation. The corporation is willing to let the government spy on its customers.

  178. 178
    John S. says:

    Kirk:

    Could you please cite the statute that says “one family to a house”? Because while I don’t think that exists, it’s something you can clearly prove as true.

    These rules generally exist in the community bylaws. If you live in either an apartment complex or a community with a Homeowner’s Association, the general rule of thumb is 2 people per bedroom. This means the maximum number of occupants in a three bedroom unit is six. That is how it has been in every place I have ever lived in Florida in my entire life, and I wager is very similar elsewhere in the country.

    Jaime:

    1.) Maybe if you didn’t come across as a paranoid cracker ass, they wouldn’t have to talk their non-American talk around you.

    This is total bullshit. I do not come off as a ‘paranoid cracker ass’ in the slightest, and yet I still witness this behavior. Unfortunately for those spanish speakers that engage in such behavior I happen to speak Spanish myself.

    This proves to be especially troublesome for those that have discussed me or tried to rip me off at the checkout assuming that I don’t speak their language. To be fair though, this is certainly not the norm, and I feel that only rude people engage in such behavior to begin with – regardless of their origin.

    2) “Those people” that burden you with their spic talk probably voted for both Bush’s. Ass.

    Only if they are Cuban, and unless you live in Miami you will probably encounter Spanish speakers from other places before you will encounter Cubans.

    KCinDC

    you think there might be a possibility that living two or three families to a house has something to do with what they can afford rather than a perverse preference for being overcrowded and a desire to annoy you personally?

    Of course it has to do with economics, but in some cases they do it just to save a LOT of money to send home. And I do mean a lot. Regardless of the motivation, it is against the rules of most neighborhoods (as I mentioned above) to have so many families under one roof, and getting them evicted isn’t as easy as one might think.

  179. 179
    jg says:

    Rome is the perfect example of the “debate” on government talk radio.

    It’s never about a fix to the solution amiable to both sides. It’s never about the political and economic problems in the U.S. AND Mexico. It somehow degenerates into numbnuts like Rome spouting about how they want ‘those people’ out of ‘my country’.

    Highlight an issue that pisses people off then tell them who’s to blame for it. Right wing politics baby! Step two is weak legislation that has no chance of passing but appears to be what the people want. What the common man feels is a solution. Once the legislation fails to pass blame is layed at the oppositions feet and talk radio welcomes angry callers to bitch at liberals.

  180. 180
    jaime says:

    1) I wasn’t talking about you John S. So please don’t respond as if I directed my comment in that manner.

    2) I lived in Central Florida for a number of years and I am hispanic. Considering Bush “won” by 537 votes in 2000, the Cuban population has a huge influence over Florida politics.

    3) Is this what we’re coming down to debating? Homeowner association rules?

  181. 181
    ppGaz says:

    I do not come off as a ‘paranoid cracker ass’

    Color me, uh, unconvinced. Assuming that people are speaking in another language to hide something from you is about as paranoid as any reaction I’ve ever heard of. At worst, I’d figure that they are just enjoying a little privacy. Wow, talk about your evil agendas!

    Of course, you could learn a little Spanish, and then know for sure, eh?

    In my experience, since are inflating our anecdotes, speaking some Spanish to Spanish-speakers is a good way to build rapport.

  182. 182

    […] Conservative blogger, John Cole, has an insightful article on immigration being the new wedge issue for the midterm elections. […]

  183. 183
    ppGaz says:

    3) Is this what we’re coming down to debating? Homeowner association rules?

    Well, Republican social policies and politics are pretty much HOA politics on a large scale, don’t you think?

    I mean, those gays and mexicans …. my word!

    The neighborhood is really going downhill.

  184. 184
    jcricket says:

    Is this what we’re coming down to debating? Homeowner association rules?

    HOA rules as designed by the blogosphere: No more than three unrelated gay Nazi illegal immigrants can cohabitate in any one house.

  185. 185
    ppGaz says:

    No more than three unrelated gay Nazi illegal immigrants can cohabitate in any one house.

    Unless they are brain dead, in which case the Congress shall be responsible for their care.

  186. 186
    Darrell says:

    As it stands now, illegal immigrants are dictating to us the mix of who comes and who does not.. instead of vice versa. More than 1/2 of all illegal immigrants come from 1 country, Mexico. Although there are exceptions, they tend to be uneducated. Because our borders are so porous, many murderers, rapists and other violent criminals enter along with those who are looking only to work. 17% of those in federal prison are illegals.

    Doesn’t every country have the right to control who enters and leaves the country? It seems obvious that we need a more diverse mix of immigrants than we have now.. a mix which is overwhelmingly dominated by Mexico and central america.

    We should be able to say that we want fewer uneducated Mexican immigrants, and instead bring more better educated professionals from other countries. After all, it’s our country

  187. 187
    Darrell says:

    It’s never about a fix to the solution amiable to both sides. It’s never about the political and economic problems in the U.S. AND Mexico. It somehow degenerates into numbnuts like Rome spouting about how they want ‘those people’ out of ‘my country’.

    Actually, ‘Rome’ tends to be quite liberal if you’ve read her posts before. But because she’s seen first hand the effects of illegal immigration, and pointed out those effects from the standpoint of someone living and working with them in Florida.. that makes her a “numbnut”

    As for talking and wringing our hands over the “political and economic problems in the U.S. AND Mexico”, we can see where all that talk has gotten us.. 12 million illegal aliens is where it’s gotten us.. most of which come from Mexico. Mexico is corrupt as hell and is overrun with govt bureaucracy to an extreme degree.. and their people suffer for it. We can tell Mexico what we think till we’re blue in the face.. but unless you’re suggesting we take over their country, it looks like their corruption will continue to impoverish millions there for the foreseable future. But that should be Mexico’s problem. Mexico’s responsibility. Not ours.

  188. 188

    I find this entire immigration debate hilarious, in light of the fact that this entire “nation” is, in reality, an assortment of colonies in treasonous mutiny against their true sovereign State, the United Kingdom of Great Britain.

    It is only when the Union Jack is restored to its rightful place on the flagpole of every government building in the land, and the beauteous face of the Queen Herself is inscribed in the coinage, and the common rabble is made to remove their caps and bow their knees in the presence of Her Royal Highness and all attendant personages of noble blood, that the immigration crisis in these colonies can even begin to be addressed.

    As far as that issue goes, the Mexicans matter very little. Vladi G has hit the true nail square on its head. The Irish are the problem. When British sovereignty is restored to these Fifty Colonies, the potato-eating filth-frolickers will be given a stark choice: swear solemn fealty to the British crown; accept permanent exile to Australia, Ireland, or Mexico (which will finally give Mexico a taste of the upheaval their citizenry has inflicted upon THIS country, as the unwashed Fenian rabble steals menial employment from their lowliest peasants); or, if the other two alternatives prove unpalatable, accept the taste of vengeful British steel for their deplorable role in continuing to foment this ongoing 232-year-long insurrection.

    Don’t like my proposals? Fuck you. I’m Santa Claus, and I’m the reddest Tory since Benedict Arnold. If that bothers you, you better hope your kids like playing with coal, motherfuckers!

    Ho ho ho, bitches.

  189. 189
    ppGaz says:

    We should be able to say that we want fewer uneducated Mexican immigrants, and instead bring more better educated professionals from other countries. After all, it’s our country

    Maybe you can stand at the border with a sign, Darrell?

    Or, what would your idea be to implement your scheme?

    Dunce caps with lines drawn through them every 50 yards along the giant fence?

  190. 190
    Halffasthero says:

    I hate to say it, or I am releived that we finally agree on something, but I think Darrell is right. Mexico is dirty politically speaking. And I think Fox is using the borders to take advantage of maintaining the order HE wants and leaving us to clean up the mess. As a liberal at heart, I would love to give everyone an opportunity, but the reality in this case is that we are taking in a lot of people who are being taken advantage of by both Mexico and the U.S. Where we likely disagree is who is to blame.

    And my feeling as to who is to blame, from my earlier post, is the corprations who hire them.

    State Tax. Income tax. Sales tax.

    You left out one – the one that usually pays for schools – property tax. Who pays for those?

  191. 191
    Pb says:

    You left out one – the one that usually pays for schools – property tax. Who pays for those?

    Pretty much everyone but the homeless.

  192. 192
    Pb says:

    We should be able to say that we want fewer uneducated Mexican immigrants, and instead bring more better educated professionals from other countries.

    Or not. I mean, if people are so angry that the uneducated Mexican immigrants by and large aren’t taking their jobs, imagine how mad they’ll be when better educated professionals from other countries really *are* taking their jobs…

  193. 193
    Kirk Spencer says:

    John S, the statement was “illegal”, not against rules. I wanted a citation of law. Yes, I’ve seen similar covenants, but they’re not county- or state-wide which was implied (not stated) by Rome’s post.

    Darrell, 17% of all inmates are illegals. The majority of them, however, are not “murderers, rapists, and violent criminals.” The majority of them are – just like the majority of the domestic criminals in prison – drug offenders.

  194. 194

    I hate to say it, or I am releived that we finally agree on something, but I think Darrell is right. Mexico is dirty politically speaking. And I think Fox is using the borders to take advantage of maintaining the order HE wants and leaving us to clean up the mess. As a liberal at heart, I would love to give everyone an opportunity, but the reality in this case is that we are taking in a lot of people who are being taken advantage of by both Mexico and the U.S. Where we likely disagree is who is to blame.

    As usual, the true culprit are the devious Fenian malcontents. Unleash them on the Mexicans as punishment for Mexico’s usurpation of American careerdom. I guarantee that the Mexcian economy will not be able to endure the Irish for as much as one decade before the toll this pestilent swarm of human locusts inflicts on the Mexican economy forces the Fox administration to seek clemency from the White House. In exchange for assistance in ridding its borders of the Irish menace, Mexico might even be induced to swear allegiance to the Crown of Britain. Such a possibility raises the interesting prospect of a two-pronged counterstroke against the surly, rebellious Yanks. But a far more effective British strategy might be to turn the plague of the Irish back once again upon the rebels, or use the threat of such a plague to force the proud Yankee to submit to his true rulers.

    Then, of course, the Irish could be shipped off to Australia.

    But such a proposal is unlikely to be implemented, as the flag-waving Fenian riff-raff is politically active and unlikely to consent to a mass deportation to Mexico. The best-laid plans of mice and men go oft astray. Oh well, fuck it. Politics are all well and good, but at the end of the day I’m mostly in this political-religious toy gig for the milk and cookies anyway- kissing peoples’ mommies is just an added bonus, and leaving coal out for naughty politicians like Bill Clinton and George Washington barely rises to the level of a mischievous prank.

  195. 195
    John S. says:

    Color me, uh, unconvinced. Assuming that people are speaking in another language to hide something from you is about as paranoid as any reaction I’ve ever heard of.

    Are you talking to me? Seriously, I don’t need to convince you ppGaz of anything. I never said they do it to conceal something from me, I said they do it because they are rude. You fucking people and your snap judgments, honestly.

  196. 196

    Rule Brittania. (Only also, please pretend that the Western United States and Mexico are also colored red. Also, the rest of Europe and Asia. Oh, and the rest of Africa and South America as well. Probably Antarctica, too, they’ll probably need to send the Irish somewhere at some point, and Lord knows I don’t want them around my toy shop, swigging whiskey and smoking clay pipes and picking fights with my elves!)

  197. 197
    John S. says:

    1) I wasn’t talking about you John S. So please don’t respond as if I directed my comment in that manner.

    I will respond to whomever I please, thank you. When anyone makes ludicrous comments, I feel it incumbent upon myself to respond.

    3) Is this what we’re coming down to debating? Homeowner association rules?

    The point is valid for an even greater reason: safety. The reason why 24 people aren’t supposed to live in a three bedroom apartment is because it isn’t safe.

    Anyway, I wasn’t commenting on the over-arching debate going on here, merely commenting on a specific tangent I saw come up, so don’t make too much of where you think I stand.

  198. 198

    2) “Those people” that burden you with their spic talk probably voted for both Bush’s. Ass.

    I’m finding jaime’s use of racial epithets to be offensive.

  199. 199

    But perhaps it’s time we invaded Mexico… and forced real Democracy upon them.

  200. 200

    These people seem to have had some fine ideas on how to run a country. What the fuck happened? What went wrong?

    Well, admittedly, they might have been a bit awful on the slavery issue, but the party platform was so confused on that one that it’s hard to even figure out what the party’s stance WAS on the issue. Could the party be reborn, with a clear anti-slavery stance enunciated, but with the core principles of anti-Irishness, the abolition of alcohol sales, and mandatory school lessons from the Protestant Bible remaining intact? Such a party would be a fine thing, for its empowerment would enable the British Crown to keep a lid on the rebellious tendencies of its American subjects.

  201. 201
    ppGaz says:

    I said they do it because they are rude.

    “Paranoid” was the context of the topic item. Pardon me for paying attention.

    You are claiming that people will switch languages in your presence, to keep you from hearing what they are saying, because they are rude?

    What is it about you that attracts that sort of response?

    Oh wait ………..

    Anyway, more power to the them.

    You fucking people and your snap judgments

    Yeah. Hispanics speaking Spanish because they are rude. Yeah, we bad. I man, malo.

  202. 202
    John S. says:

    John S, the statement was “illegal”, not against rules. I wanted a citation of law.

    So, when you sign a lease – a legal document – you are not bound to follow the provisions set forth in it? You are free to act as you please in violation of that agreement?

    Anyway, here’s a few laws:

    Missouri law:

    Limits occupancy to two persons per bedroom except for children born during the lease period.

    California Law:

    The agreement which is made between a landlord and tenant will determine how many persons are allowed in a dwelling unit. This agreement is legally binding as long as it does not violatethe occupancy standards listed below.

    I’m sure there are others.

  203. 203

    But perhaps it’s time we invaded Mexico… and forced real Democracy upon them.

    I admire this sentiment. A direct response to problems is usually the best one. But I feel that your passion is misdirected. I respectfully submit a counter-proposal. Please hear me out:

    Perhaps it is time for the British Empire to enfold Mexico within its loving, beneficent, and nigh-omnipotent bosom. Then we can send forth the Mexicans onto your churlish, insurrectionist asses, and force upon you the real Monarchy which your traitor ancestors fancied themselves capable of permanently defying merely because they were safely ensconced within the confines of Philadelphia at the time.

    Then we can take Philly and raze that snake’s nest of loopy moonbats and Irish moonshiners to the ground. Her Royal Highness will surely deign to give the booty of this pirate’s nest as a prize to those of Her loyal subjects willing to fight to secure Her Dominions for Her.

  204. 204
    John S. says:

    ppGaz-

    You have a serious problem when your pre-conceived notions are challenged.

    “Paranoid” was the context of the topic item. Pardon me for paying attention.

    Pardon you for being wrong.

    You are claiming that people will switch languages in your presence, to keep you from hearing what they are saying, because they are rude?

    No, I am claiming that on the rare occassion that someone speaks Spanish in front of me – when they can also speak English – specifically to try to say something they don’t want me to hear because they think I don’t understand them is the behavior of a rude individual. When they realize I understand them, a few chuckles usually follow as if to say ‘the jig is up’. Pay closer attention next time.

    Yeah. Hispanics speaking Spanish because they are rude. Yeah, we bad. I man, malo.

    You are retarded. I don’t know who you are confusing me with or where you get this notion from, but you are pillorying a strawman that doesn’t exist – at least with me.

  205. 205
    Rome Again says:

    Kirk Spencer said:

    Could you please cite the statute that says “one family to a house”? Because while I don’t think that exists, it’s something you can clearly prove as true. And until you can cite it, I’ll assume all the other facts you claim are equally… hyperbolic. If you do demonstrate it, then I’ll grant willingness to believe the rest have basis in fact as well.

    Kirk, I don’t have to, nor do I know laws enough to cite statues, BUT, all residential housing is zoned (and that zoning can be enforced by law). HOA and Condo Associations have additional community standards, which if not met, can be exercised by rule of law, because HOA’s and Condo Associations are charters which use contracts for their approved residences (don’t tell me different, I used to type up the contracts for a property management company). Single family housing (zoned) means just that. If a large group of multiple white families all decided to pile in to a single residence together, that would not stand, because it is assumed each white family can afford to live in single residences. In apartment housing, the rental company would enforce such rules (again by law), yet, while I have been harrassed for having a relative stay for two months without paying rent (and was told she would have to leave if I did not add her to the lease), I can drive three miles away right now to an apartment complex where they have so many Latinos living in single family apartments that there are not nearly enough parking lots for the cars being kept by those living there (they need about an additional 50 spaces). This apartment complex used to be on my paper route, I drove through it every night.

    I am supposed to be sleeping right now, couldn’t sleep (Boss says he say a “good and fun” surprise for me, I hate surprises, so I can’t sleep) and I’m supposed to be at work in four hours, yet, I’ll stay to address some of the other vilification I’ve received tonight. I’d be happy to address each and every one, but if I don’t do it tonight, I’ll be back tomorrow to finish.

  206. 206
    ppGaz says:

    a few chuckles usually follow as if to say ‘the jig is up’.

    Hmm … much like what is happening to you here, now?

    Jesus. What a hoot.

    Loco en la cabeza.

  207. 207
    DougJ says:

    Santa — both sides were wrong about slavery. The system wasn’t perfect, but the abolitionists wanted to go too far in ending it all together.

  208. 208
    Rome Again says:

    Jaime stated (regarding my statement that these immigrants break out in secret Spanish talk in front of me):

    1.) Maybe if you didn’t come across as a paranoid cracker ass, they wouldn’t have to talk their non-American talk around you.

    2) “Those people” that burden you with their spic talk probably voted for both Bush’s. Ass.

    I’m not paranoid at all. Actually, I’m a supervisor for for about fifty Latinos now, but even before that, I could be standing in a group of people that included Latinos holding a conversation in English, and they would just break into Spanish conversation while several non-Spanish speakers were standing there. It is rude.

    Do I care what you say about my reaction to this type of behavior? No, not really. It’s just an observation I was making. Nice try though, calling me a paranoid cracker when you really know absolutely nothing about me. Nice diagnosis from the internet Jaime, Senator Frist would be proud.

  209. 209
    ppGaz says:

    No, I am claiming that on the rare occassion that someone speaks Spanish in front of me – when they can also speak English – specifically to try to say something they don’t want me to hear because they think I don’t understand them is the behavior of a rude individual. When they realize I understand them, a few chuckles usually follow as if to say ‘the jig is up’. Pay closer attention next time.

    Sorry, I just think that is so funny, I had to repost it.

    Ladies and gentlemen, John S., our new ambassador to Chavez Ravine.

  210. 210
    ppGaz says:

    Santa—both sides were wrong about slavery. The system wasn’t perfect, but the abolitionists wanted to go too far in ending it all together.

    Now, that is just spit-funny. Enough propel a beverage over the entire keyboard and monitor.

  211. 211
    Rome Again says:

    KCinDC said:

    Rome Again, you think there might be a possibility that living two or three families to a house has something to do with what they can afford rather than a perverse preference for being overcrowded and a desire to annoy you personally?

    It doesn’t annoy me personally, where I live is very expensive, I think it’s very unfair that I can’t get away with doing it but they can.

    I personally don’t make a heck of a lot more than they do. I’m paying almost $1,000 a month (rent is rising by $200 a month as of June 30), I’d like the same opportunity.

    The Latinos in my area get special treatment, and I think that is wrong, personally. I don’t mind them being here, if they truly want to live like the rest of us, that means paying the same rents, working for the same wages, and fitting in.

  212. 212
    John S. says:

    Sorry, I just think that is so funny, I had to repost it.

    For your next trick, can you read what I wrote and comprehend it for what it means? Or is that beyond the grasp of your Vaudevillian shtick?

    I thank you for your nomination, however, and as a token of my appreciation I nominate you the new ambassador to Century Village.

  213. 213
    ppGaz says:

    can you read what I wrote and comprehend it for what it means

    Another misunderstood soul. Oh, the humanity.

    Yeah, as if the shit you wrote can be misunderstood.

  214. 214

    Santa—both sides were wrong about slavery. The system wasn’t perfect, but the abolitionists wanted to go too far in ending it all together.

    So as usual, the middle position was correct, yes? Thanks for clearing that up for me. There was a fog of confusion surrounding this difficult, emotional issue, and you just cut right through it, directly into the heart of the matter. Thank you.

    I have decided to run for President in 2008 on the American Party ticket. A vote for Santa Claus is a vote against the surly, unwashed, criminal, job-thieving immigrant hordes! It is also a vote for the return of the King James Bible to schools. It is also a vote for the return of British sovereignty, although I’m perfectly willing to compromise and take the middle-ground on the issue, establishing a British suzerainty in lieu of formal annexation. Santa Claus- a uniter, not a divider!

    Come on, vote for Santa, you fucking pinko Commie assholes. What’s the matter, was your grandmother Irish or something? Well, don’t worry, Santa won’t hold that against you as long as you can look past your ancestry and vote for America now.

  215. 215
    ppGaz says:

    Come on, vote for Santa, you fucking pinko Commie assholes.

    It isn’t seemly to reply to yourself, Doug.

    Anyway, my money is on the Tooth Fairy.

  216. 216
    Rome Again says:

    jg said:

    Rome is the perfect example of the “debate” on government talk radio.

    It’s never about a fix to the solution amiable to both sides. It’s never about the political and economic problems in the U.S. AND Mexico. It somehow degenerates into numbnuts like Rome spouting about how they want ‘those people’ out of ‘my country’.

    Actually jg, if you look at what I said above, I said:

    I’m not saying I don’t want them here, I just think that the impact they are making is different than when other groups came to America seeking opportunity.

    I would get along better with them if they would:

    1. not break into spanish secret talk in front of me while I’m around (I see this a lot)
    2. stand in line like everyone else (I get the feeling they don’t know what standing in line is all about)
    3. live one family to a house like the law states (instead of two or three families).

    These people are getting away with doing things I cannot get away with. If they would “assimilate” I would have absolutely no problem with them being here.

    I made three different statements saying that I could accept them here, if they didn’t act rudely and get special treatment, and I never said I wanted them out of my country. First of all, it’s not MY country, it’s the country of almost 300 million people, and my family were immigrants too. I’m a 12th generation immigrant, and I’m also a second generation immigrant. I have no special ownership to this land, but previous immigrants have assimilated, and I don’t see that happening.

    Other nationalities came to this country and they learned the language, now for me to speak to some of my employees, I have to learn their language, and/or hire spanish speakers (which I have more tendancy to do).

  217. 217

    It isn’t seemly to reply to yourself, Doug.

    I ain’t DougJ, ppGAZ. I’m fucking Santa Claus. You must be worried about this being a long, cold winter, if you’re clamoring for this much coal at Christmastime.

    Anyway, my money is on the Tooth Fairy.

    Pull your head out of your ass. The Tooth Fairy is gay. America hasn’t had a homosexual President since Lincoln. It’s not gonna happen again, not in the next 20 years or so, anyway. Besides, have you HEARD the Tooth Fairy’s position on the capital gains tax? The motherfucker makes Lenin look like Milton Friedman.

  218. 218
    DougJ says:

    I would get along better with them if they would:

    1. Stop driving around in low riders playing that crazy music

    2. Stop charging me 6 bucks for a fucking burrito. A burrito should be 4.50, 5 bucks tops. And that’s with the guac and sour cream.

    3. Get that goddamn George Lopez show off the air. It’s high time Tim Allen had his own show again. Illegal aliens are stealing airtime from qualified Americans. And you can bet your ass they’re paying George more than minimum wage for his “efforts”.

  219. 219
    ppGaz says:

    You must be worried about this being a long, cold winter, if you’re clamoring for this much coal at Christmastime.

    Uh, I live in Phoenix. Our winter only lasts two weeks. It was over before you even got your fat ass out of your sleigh.

    The motherfucker makes Lenin look like Milton Friedman.

    Who knew that Santa has joke writers? Oh wait, I think you misspelled “Satan.”

  220. 220
    Rome Again says:

    Darrell said:

    Actually, ‘Rome’ tends to be quite liberal if you’ve read her posts before. But because she’s seen first hand the effects of illegal immigration, and pointed out those effects from the standpoint of someone living and working with them in Florida.. that makes her a “numbnut”

    Thank you Darrell. I’m glad someone remembers me and my brand of politics. It seems said that this issue has divided both sides. I would probably be spouting the same points of most other liberals if:

    1. I wasn’t living amongst this situation firsthand
    2. I was one of the immigrants myself
    3. I wasn’t a Lou Dobbs Democrat who believes in secured borders.

    That’s not to say I want all immigrants gone, we’re 99.9% immigrants in this country, we almost all came from somewhere else, I just want them to assimilate, and have this country seem normal again. I want to see Americans and Latinos working side by side and earning the same pay. I want to see our borders secure and I want to see everyone have the same opportunities. That’s all.

  221. 221
    ppGaz says:

    No, I am claiming that on the rare occassion that someone speaks Spanish in front of me – when they can also speak English – specifically to try to say something they don’t want me to hear because they think I don’t understand them is the behavior of a rude individual. When they realize I understand them, a few chuckles usually follow as if to say ‘the jig is up’. Pay closer attention next time.

    Still the best comedy material of the day.

  222. 222
    ppGaz says:

    I want to see our borders secure and I want to see everyone have the same opportunities. That’s all.

    I’ve avoided jumping on the anti-Rome bandwagon so far, since you’ve cut me plenty-o-slack in the past.

    But I must put a challenge out there for all who make the statement you’ve made here:

    How do you propose to “secure” the borders? Be specific please.

  223. 223

    Uh, I live in Phoenix. Our winter only lasts two weeks. It was over before you even got your fat ass out of your sleigh.

    You must be dreaming of a white Christmas, then, motherfucker, ‘cuz I can make that happen. It’s not like the Man Upstairs doesn’t owe me some back pay at this point, I’ve been working for milk-and-cookies wages for the last 1700 years. You think I can’t get him to shake some of that fluffy ice-dandruff on your fucking desert ass this winter? You’ll be begging me for coal when that day comes, fucking BEGGING me for the shit. And you know what I’ll give you? G.I. Joes and Barbie dolls, and $50 Transformers, and Tickle-Me-Elmos, and Cabbage Patch kids. I’m fucking twisted like that, you know. The people that WANT coal get toys. Ever try heating your house with an Optimus Prime figure? Good luck.

    Who knew that Santa has joke writers? Oh wait, I think you misspelled “Satan.”

    Fuck you.

  224. 224
    Rome Again says:

    Actually ppGaz, this breaking out in Spanish so that English speakers can’t understand the conversation happens much more than you might think.

    I hate to disagree with you, I feel as if ever since I came to Balloon Juice, we have been on the same side so often that it feels weird not being on the same side on this issue, but so be it.

    The Spanish talk in front of English speakers happens very often.

  225. 225

    How do you propose to “secure” the borders? Be specific please.

    Well, here’s one idea.

  226. 226

    Here’s another. Please note they’ve been monitoring the SOUTHERN border of the lawn. Enlist 10 million such youngsters to man positions along the border, and draw your own conclusions.

  227. 227
    Rome Again says:

    How do you propose to “secure” the borders? Be specific please.

    I haven’t a clue ppGaz, that’s why we elect people to office to solve those problems. I’m in the business of solving newspaper delivery problems. My expertise doesn’t fit with the task, and I honestly admit it.

    At the same time, I believe our borders should be secure, if for no other reason that to make sure people who will want to harm our country (and I’m sure the enemies we’re making now in Iraq/Iran/etc… may come soon) can’t get through.

  228. 228
    ppGaz says:

    Actually ppGaz, this breaking out in Spanish so that English speakers can’t understand the conversation happens much more than you might think.

    I’m trying not to be rude, which for me, as you know, is rather difficult.

    I grew up in PHOENIX. I was married to an Hispanic woman whose grandparents were immigrants. I am made up of 50% Mexican food. I live in a neighborhood that is at least 25% Hispanic. My son is half Hispanic.

    Do you really think I need to told what it’s like to live around Hispanic people?

  229. 229
    Rome Again says:

    One answer I do have though, is to stop encouraging Vicente Fox to decide how our borders are run.

  230. 230
    Rome Again says:

    Do you really think I need to told what it’s like to live around Hispanic people?

    Perhaps yes, because you have a different perspective than I do, you’re safe to them, I’m different.

  231. 231
    ppGaz says:

    you’re safe to them, I’m different.

    Eh? I am a blonde, green-eyed gringo.

    I don’t know what you mean.

  232. 232
    Rome Again says:

    Look, I’m not saying it happens everywhere. I never saw this type of behavior before I came to Forida (and I used to live in Vegas and was even in Phoenix for a couple of months myself). It’s prevalent in Florida. The hispanic community also cliques here, it doesn’t really immerse itself.

    I work as a supervisor for a newspaper circulation district. When the protests were going on, we had over 30 carriers decide they were going to not show up for work (that would be about 25,000 newspapers that four people would deliver, impossible). We were told it was due to the protests. The next day, we were informed that it was due to economic issues, yet, they didn’t discuss any economic hardships with any of the non-hispanic workers. Why is that? We have white people making the same rate in newspaper delivery as hispanics are, so why didn’t they ask the rest of the carriers to join them?

  233. 233
    Rome Again says:

    Eh? I am a blonde, green-eyed gringo.

    I don’t know what you mean.

    I know lots of blond hispanics (I work with one who I could have sworn was Russian, his name is even Russian sounding). What you look like doesn’t matter, but you have a seinse of belongingness in that community, do you not? Don’t they accept you as one of their own? I don’t have that, I’m an outsider. You aren’t really an outsider, are you?

  234. 234
    Andrei says:

    We should be able to say that we want fewer uneducated Mexican immigrants, and instead bring more better educated professionals from other countries. After all, it’s our country.

    Only if you’re willing to start tossing out all those poor Americans who cant’ pass sixth grade reading comprehension, of which there are a large number.

    Honestly? This is an absurd line of thinking. Part of being “free” means “free to be uneducated” from the liberal education point of view. (That is an education system that favors learning about topics than learning a specific vocation, craft or trade.)

    Being uneducated is not a crime. Therefore it should have little to no bearing on creating policy or laws.

  235. 235
    Rome Again says:

    Honestly? This is an absurd line of thinking. Part of being “free” means “free to be uneducated” from the liberal education point of view. (That is an education system that favors learning about topics than learning a specific vocation, craft or trade.)

    I agree with what you staed Andrei, but why did you have to throw the word liberal in there? Do you also agree that we should be free from the conservative education point of view?

  236. 236
    DougJ says:

    You aren’t really an outsider, are you?

    Ppgaz is the consumate insider. I thought you knew that by now.

  237. 237
    Rome Again says:

    Ppgaz is the consumate insider. I thought you knew that by now.

    Well, I always suspected as much Doug, but I never really took it for granted.

  238. 238
    ppGaz says:

    You aren’t really an outsider, are you?

    Hmm. That’s a very interesting question.

    Don’t know how to answer it. In real (nonblog) life, I tend to fit in and blend in wherever I am. That’s just the way I like it. I tend to be rather friendly and easy to get along with. Like I said, real life. ppGaz is a persona, a political “grenade thrower” as John once put it.

    But if you put me in the middle of WalMart, you can definitely tell that I’m mostly German stock, and not Hispanic, that’s for sure. If I am safe to “them” it’s because that’s the way they read me. I tend to be very user friendly out in the real world. I say please and thank you to everybody. I tell the grocery checker that I appreciate the work she did for me, whether she’s Chinese or Hispanic or Hellenic. Believe it or not, that’s the way it is. If Hispanics start speaking Spanish around me, I just listen and enjoy it. It’s a beautiful language.

  239. 239
    Ryan S. says:

    You left out one – the one that usually pays for schools – property tax. Who pays for those?

    The landlord that ‘maintains’ the property, I assume most illegal immigrants rent.

  240. 240
    ppGaz says:

    Ppgaz is the consumate insider. I thought you knew that by now.

    You misspelled a word.

  241. 241
    Rome Again says:

    I tend to be very user friendly out in the real world. I say please and thank you to everybody. I tell the grocery checker that I appreciate the work she did for me, whether she’s Chinese or Hispanic or Hellenic. Believe it or not, that’s the way it is. If Hispanics start speaking Spanish around me, I just listen and enjoy it. It’s a beautiful language.

    I was brought up on manners, I say please, thank you, I’m appreciative as well (and I tip about 40% because I know how hard the working class has it, maids at hotels included, and I don’t take their race into acccount either), but do you speak the language? I can listen to spanish speakers and I’m confused, I don’t know enough to understand anything. I look like a fool (and feel like one too, while I’m sitting there feeling left out).

    Now, I do know enough of the language that I can train a route so a spanish speaker knows why I’m trying to train them to do, but I can’t converse at all. It is the left-out thing, I would never do that to another person personally.

  242. 242
    ppGaz says:

    My advice, which you did not ask for, is to take some Spanish. You are down there where there are a ton of Cuban Spanish speakers, which means mostly Castilian Spanish. There are few things in the world more beautiful than well spoken Castilian Spanish.

    Then, with a little instruction under your belt, you are in the perfect situation to practice the Spanish and build your vocabulary.

  243. 243
    Zifnab says:

    I can’t say I have had much experience with Mexican immigrants, but I’ve known more than my fair share of FoBs (Fresh off the boat for those not literate in chinglish). My high school was 20% asian and my university hovers around the 18-22% mark. I get to deal with clusters of asian girls wandering around campus prattling on in Chinese or Vietnamese on a daily basis. A number of my friends’ parents have yet to master the English language, and when they want to chew their children out in front of company, are never hesitant to switch to a form of speech they’re more comfortable with.

    Next to the Hispanics, Chinese immigrants are some of the most numerous and most culturally clichish. Most major cities have a Chinatown. Many chinese families still insist they practice speaking their native tongue, and saturdays are commonly set aside for asian children to attend Chinese school, where they can learn to master their language among their asian peers.

    Yet, I never hear and upswell of disgust and horror over illegal Chinese immigrants. I don’t see anyone suggesting we build a wall midway across the Pacific. No one seems to be suggesting the Chinese immigrant is unAmerican or that the Chinese are secretly trying to invade the country to conquer it from within. I wonder why? I’m sure racism has nothing to do with it.

  244. 244
    ppGaz says:

    My advice, which you did not ask for, is to take some Spanish. You are down there where there are a ton of Cuban Spanish speakers, which means mostly Castilian Spanish. There are few things in the world more beautiful than well spoken Castilian Spanish.

    Then, with a little instruction under your belt, you are in the perfect situation to practice the Spanish and build your vocabulary.

  245. 245
    Zifnab says:

    I can’t say I have had much experience with Mexican immigrants, but I’ve known more than my fair share of FoBs (Fresh off the boat for those not literate in chinglish). My high school was 20% asian and my university hovers around the 18-22% mark. I get to deal with clusters of asian girls wandering around campus prattling on in Chinese or Vietnamese on a daily basis. A number of my friends’ parents have yet to master the English language, and when they want to chew their children out in front of company, are never hesitant to switch to a form of speech they’re more comfortable with.

    Next to the Hispanics, Chinese immigrants are some of the most numerous and most culturally clichish. Most major cities have a Chinatown. Many chinese families still insist they practice speaking their native tongue, and saturdays are commonly set aside for asian children to attend Chinese school, where they can learn to master their language among their asian peers.

    Yet, I never hear any upswell of disgust and horror over illegal Chinese immigrants. I don’t see anyone suggesting we build a wall midway across the Pacific. No one seems to be suggesting the Chinese immigrant is unAmerican or that the Chinese are secretly trying to invade the country to conquer it from within. I wonder why? I’m sure racism has nothing to do with it.

  246. 246
    Rome Again says:

    I’ll attempt this again, getting errors on posting tonight.

    ppGaz, I was brought up on manners, I say please and thank you. I can be very appreciative as well (why do so many people assume I’m a bitch online? probably because it serves their purpose?) and I tip quite well whenever anyone serves me in any way (about 40% usually) and I don’t take race into account at all.

    I can’t speak conversational spanish, so I’m left not knowing what is being said, I’m left out of the conversation. I know enough of the language that I can train a spanish speaker to do a newspaper route, citing addresses in spanish, but I can’t converse, this makes me very uncomfortable. It’s a position I would never put anyone in knowingly.

  247. 247
    Zifnab says:

    I can’t say I have had much experience with Mexican immigrants, but I’ve known more than my fair share of FoBs (Fresh off the boat for those not literate in chinglish). My high school was 20% asian and my university hovers around the 18-22% mark. I get to deal with clusters of asian girls wandering around campus prattling on in Chinese or Vietnamese on a daily basis. A number of my friends’ parents have yet to master the English language, and when they want to chew their children out in front of company, are never hesitant to switch to a form of speech they’re more comfortable with.

    Next to the Hispanics, Chinese immigrants are some of the most numerous and most culturally clichish. Most major cities have a Chinatown. Many chinese families still insist they practice speaking their native tongue, and saturdays are commonly set aside for asian children to attend Chinese school, where they can learn to master their language among their asian peers.

    Yet, I never hear any upswell of disgust and horror over illegal Chinese immigrants. I don’t see anyone suggesting we build a wall midway across the Pacific. No one seems to be suggesting the Chinese immigrant is unAmerican or that the Chinese are secretly trying to invade the country to conquer it from within. I wonder why? I’m sure racism has nothing to do with it.

  248. 248
    Rome Again says:

    I’ll attempt this again, getting errors on posting tonight.

    ppGaz, I was brought up on manners, I say please and thank you. I can be very appreciative as well (why do so many people assume I’m a bitch online? probably because it serves their purpose?) and I tip quite well whenever anyone serves me in any way (about 40% usually) and I don’t take race into account at all.

    I can’t speak conversational spanish, so I’m left not knowing what is being said, I’m left out of the conversation. I know enough of the language that I can train a spanish speaker to do a newspaper route, citing addresses in spanish, but I can’t converse, this makes me very uncomfortable. It’s a position I would never put anyone in knowingly.

  249. 249
    ppGaz says:

    Don’t know how that got double posted. Must be time to turn in.

  250. 250
    Zifnab says:

    Wow. That’s actually kinda weird.

  251. 251
    Stormy70 says:

    PP – There is a certain type of person who will speak spanish, and claim to know no englais to scam you. Like all groups of people, there are some scum mixed in with the overwhelmingly decent people. I worked retail, and my coorker who was a hispanic loved to bust these scammers when they were pulling that crap. Being in Texas, and working in an environment where the scammers are active, I saw this all the time. Over the years, we were hit by African scammers, Irish travelers, russians, and hispanics, both legal and illegal. Then we had the “doctor’s wives” and the “teens” to look out for, as well. But they spoke English, and we could understand their curse words.

    Ahh. Retail.

    It is not racist to point out these situations. They happen to some more than others, depending where you work.

    On immigration, the Mexican foreman is also taking a cut of what little these workers make. Also, the Mexicans are getting pissed off at all the El Salvadorans coming in now, taking their jobs.

    These workers need protection, and considering we are at basically full employment, and the demand is extremely high for more workers, we need a decent path to legalization.
    Not the 10 year boondoggle we have going now.

  252. 252
    Rome Again says:

    well Zifnab, I can tell you that I personally don’t have a large chinese population where I am. Of the few Chinese I’ve met, they speak English, they don’t all work as construction workers for a firm that refuses to hire any other race than their own (I used to be in the construction field, I know of construction crews that are totally hispanic, and they ARE being paid less).

    I think it is different demographics. When we’re discussing hispanics, there is a threat to economic wellbeing, there is a huge langauge gap, and there is a lifestyle that seems to be able to bend rules that others can’t bend (such as living multifamily in single family apartments, as I cited above). There may also be the sheer number who have no desire to become legal, yet they get tax-paid healthcare and such.

  253. 253
    ppGaz says:

    There is a certain type of person who will speak spanish, and claim to know no englais to scam you.

    There are always scammers out there, and they always have a way to scam you.

    Sometimes they scam their way all the way to the White House :-0

    Also, AZ-Mex food is better than Tex-Mex.

    { burp }

  254. 254
    Stormy70 says:

    Yet, I never hear and upswell of disgust and horror over illegal Chinese immigrants.

    They had their upswell in the 1800s, dude. Similar to the Irish, the Italians, the eastern Europeans, etc. This is just the newest version of an old American pastime.
    America will assimilate them and move on. No problemo.

  255. 255
    Rome Again says:

    Sometimes they scam their way all the way to the White House :-0

    Ain’t that the truth LOL
    __________

    Stormy, we have travelers here in FL too, strange bunch, aren’t they?

  256. 256
    Rome Again says:

    This is just the newest version of an old American pastime.
    America will assimilate them and move on. No problemo.

    Are you sure? How many of the others tried to override our language? It seems to me when jobs are denied because an English speaking American doesn’t speak Spanish there is a problem.

  257. 257
    Stormy70 says:

    Also, AZ-Mex food is better than Tex-Mex.

    pp – you have gone too far!

    {SLAP}

    Pick your second. Mine’s DougJ. Too keep you honest, gringo!

    Although, New Mexico is sitting on some prime green chili food in the middle there. We may have to gang up on them.

    Truly, salsa runs through the veins of all Texans.

  258. 258
    ppGaz says:

    Truly, salsa runs through the veins of all Texans.

    I thought it was barbeque sauce?

    Texas barbeque makes me drool.

    More than usual, I mean.

  259. 259
    Rome Again says:

    Truly, salsa runs through the veins of all Texans.

    Must suck to be a vampire in Texas (j/k) :P

  260. 260
    Stormy70 says:

    Stormy, we have travelers here in FL too, strange bunch, aren’t they?

    Very weird.

    This bunch of immigrants will have children who assimilate and live out the American dream. It’s in the water.

    John’s comments are taking too long to load, and I am sleepy.

    Good night, peeps.

  261. 261
    Rome Again says:

    Yeah, I gotta be at work in two hours, I should catch a lttle shuteye.

    g’nite all!

  262. 262
    Laura says:

    Actually ppGaz, this breaking out in Spanish so that English speakers can’t understand the conversation happens much more than you might think.

    I can’t even begin to understand why anybody would have a problem with that. Sometimes my brother will switch to Spanish because he knows the other person he’s talking to is more comfortable in Spanish, even if their English sounds fine. Other times he’ll speak Spanish when he hears someone speaking both English and Spanish. Like ppGaz said, it can be a bonding experience. People get excited to learn that this white, blue eyed American speaks perfect Spanish. It’s amazing to see strangers warm up to him. He’s met some great, interesting people because he’s willing to speak to them in their first language. I’m envious. The next time you hear someone switch to Spanish, instead of taking it personally and assuming they’re being rude to you, you might consider their reason for speaking Spanish has absolutely nothing to do with you.

  263. 263
    Pb says:

    DougJ,

    Come on over here, brother–I haven’t seen a low rider lately, but I have seen a giant $4.50 burrito–I had one for lunch, actually!

    As for the guac and sour cream, that’s the best part, but usually it only comes with the chimichangas, and you don’t have to eat it if you don’t want to.

    Finally… George Lopez show? Don’t know how I missed that one. I guess I don’t watch that much ABC.

  264. 264
    ppGaz says:

    I had one for lunch, actually!

    Yeah, your co-workers called, and …..

    Well anyway, we know.

  265. 265
    Laura says:

    There may also be the sheer number who have no desire to become legal, yet they get tax-paid healthcare and such.

    This myth that illegal immigrants don’t pay taxes has to end. When they rent, they’re paying a landlord who’s paying property taxes, just like every legal immigrant or anybody who has the good fortune to be born here. They pay state income tax, federal income tax, social security, medicare, sales tax. They pay it all. But because they’re using fictitious ss #, or one that belongs to someone else, they don’t get to draw the benefits.

    As far as them having no desire to become legal, that may be true for some, but because they can’t go back and forth without risking their lives, they end up staying. Some would be more than happy to come for seasonal work and go back to their families. But we make that impossible.

    On the other hand, there are probably millions who would like nothing else than to become citizens. They’ve already become members of our community. People are worried about assimilation, but that’s not an issue at all for a lot of them.

    And then there are others who are on the fringes, but who would be willing to assimilate if they didn’t fear being sent home. I know a lot of people have no sympathy for them, but the reality is we can’t ship everybody home.

    But as far as Mexican immigrants, Stormy’s right. Their issues are nothing new or unique, except that it’s more difficult for them to get Visas than Europeans. It’s always been hard for first generations, but their children do just fine. I would say the Russians and the Hmong have a harder time assimilating in Sacramento than those from Central America. But just like the Spanish speakers, they have their businesses and all the signs in their language. I have to choose between 6 languages on my ATM. I’m tempted to select some Chinese characters and see how I do. But I love it. How bland it would be if everybody had the same backgrounds and cultures and food.

  266. 266
    g-rant says:

    Are you sure? How many of the others tried to override our language?

    I really don’t think you have to worry about English losing it’s dominance in America. However, Hispanic English is becoming a dominant force in the border states. And who cares anyway? It’s just a language.

  267. 267
    Andrei says:

    I agree with what you staed Andrei, but why did you have to throw the word liberal in there?

    Because a general education that focuses on studies across the board is referred to as a “liberal arts” education, as opposed to something like a vocational school. Has nothing to do with conservative or liberal in the political mashing of the word.

  268. 268
    John S. says:

    Yeah, as if the shit you wrote can be misunderstood.

    You are leading by example, ppGaz. But I guess since you live in Arizona, you’re the almighty authority on Hispanic relations.

    Like I said, you’re a real piece of work when you’re wrong. It must be tough being right all the time, especially when you’re wrong. You’d do well to brush up on your reading comprehension, because clearly when I say:

    To be fair though, this is certainly not the norm, and I feel that only rude people engage in such behavior to begin with – regardless of their origin.

    That means I hate all Spanish speakers. I guess you think it’s ok that on the rare occassions of which I speak when a gringo goes up to the counter to find out how much an item without a price tag costs and the cashier says – in English – “let me find out” then turns to a co-worker and says in Spanish “how much more should we charge this guy?”, that it’s perfectly acceptable – and polite – behavior.

  269. 269
    OCSteve says:

    Regarding a guest worker program….

    We use one pretty extensively where I live and it is pretty successful. Resort towns on DelMarVa can not staff for the summertime. Permanent population in some towns is in the low thousands, yet some towns can see millions of visitors in the 12 week summer season. Most businesses have to make the bulk of their revenue for the entire year in those 12 weeks.

    Those businesses rely heavily on guest workers. For the most part these are Russians, Czechoslovakians, Hungarians, etc. There are companies back home that make the arrangements: travel, help with a visa, etc. – for a cut of course. Minimal English skills are required and they have to have a job waiting for them here. They generally stay in the US for two years, and then return home.

    In general I would say it works out pretty well. Businesses get the help they need and the foreign workers make more in those two years than they would in ten years back home. Most go back after their stint, some pursue a green card, and I’m sure some overstay their visa illegally, but I don’t think that number is a lot. Most never intend to stay here – they come and work their butt off for a couple of years then return home.

    It is not perfect of course. The biggest issue is affordable housing. Many end up living 10-12 in a place meant for 4. There are predatory slumlords who take advantage: let a dozen people live in a small unit to split the high rent; don’t maintain the place, stiff them on their security deposit when they leave… This is gradually getting better because these towns know they won’t survive without the help, and everyone who returns home with horror stories about housing is a black eye on these communities.

    My point is that if this guest worker program can be successful with the workers taking international flights to get here and back – then surely something similar can be made to work with those coming from Mexico. If you give these folks a reasonable legal route to come here and work I believe most will take it rather than the illegal alternative. I think the key is streamlining the visa process while keeping out criminals, terrorists, etc.; enforcing some minimal housing standards on those employers/communities that need these workers; letting private companies handle the details of transportation and matching workers with employers; and ruthlessly enforcing the time limits dictated by the visa.

  270. 270
    John S. says:

    The next time you hear someone switch to Spanish, instead of taking it personally and assuming they’re being rude to you, you might consider their reason for speaking Spanish has absolutely nothing to do with you.

    Again, I do not take it personally unless the person switching to Spanish does so for less than scrupulous motivations. I can tell if they are being rude by what they say because I also speak Spanish.

    Can any of you not grasp that there are rude people in every culture of the world, and that discussing the behavior of those few individuals is not an indictment of their entire culture?

  271. 271
    Vlad says:

    I’ve known priests who’d speak Latin when they didn’t want to be understood. This situation doesn’t strike me as all that much different.

  272. 272
    Krista says:

    I’d say that happens all across the board. My friends and I have spoken French to each other while at a club, to reduce the chances of being eavesdropped upon. The key is to not be completely blatant about it, and to not stare at the person about whom you’re speaking.

  273. 273
    Steve says:

    I’ve known a number of commentors on Balloon Juice who speak English when they don’t want to be understood.

  274. 274
    Jim Allen says:

    I’ve known a number of commentors on Balloon Juice who speak English when they don’t want to be understood.

    PotD

  275. 275
    Jim Allen says:

    Hm. Probably should have closed the tag, huh?

  276. 276
    Beavis says:

    Some questions for the open borders crowd:

    1) Does the US have a right to sovereignty and to control its own borders? Do others have a right to come to and stay in this country if they can slip across our borders or overstay a visa?

    2) Is it good economic policy to admit so many immigrants (mostly illegal) from one country who are mostly poor, unskilled, uneducated, and illiterate?

    3) Does it make any sense to consider what it will be like to live in this country if current trends continue and we have 400-450 million here by 2050, with almost all the growth the result of immigration (largely illegal)? Should we consider the environmental effects, traffic, quality of life?

    4) Is it fair to have an economic policy (cheap illegal labor) that benefits few who are allowed to socialize the costs of the cheap labor to the rest of society?

  277. 277

    So far nobody has convinced me that illegal immigration is a good thing.

    The attempts to claim people who are against illegal immigration are against immigration in general have been a real failure. I don’t know what your problem is… reading comprehension, just angry obtuseness, what, but they make you appear laughable.

  278. 278
    ppGaz says:

    Can any of you not grasp that there are rude people in every culture of the world, and that discussing the behavior of those few individuals is not an indictment of their entire culture?

    It’s a hoot watching you run away from your own issue as fast as you can, while still trying to fling poo at me for exposing you to the ridicule you so richly deserved.

    Your original point was what? That some Hispanics are rude to you? And worse, they have another language to be rude to you in?

    Wow. Maybe you can move to Canada and put more distance between yourself and those awful people? Or, all the way to the North Pole where you can join our very own Santa Claus, or DougJ, or whoever he is.

  279. 279
    ppGaz says:

    So far nobody has convinced me that illegal immigration is a good thing.

    Your post gets the seldom seen ppGaz Lame Strawman of the Day Award.

    Your 12-month carwash pass is in the mail.

  280. 280
    Krista says:

    No matter where you go, the immigration laws are screwed up, it seems. My evidence is purely anecdotal, but it seems as though immigrants from some countries have a much, much easier time getting in than do immigrants from other countries. I could be off base in that, but it just seems odd to me that my region has a huge Lebanese population (not that that’s a bad thing at all), but I know of two American couples who are not being allowed to stay. I realize that the American couples are probably not in any danger if made to go back to their home country, but it just seems to be very odd to be deporting people who are law-abiding, speak the language, and have even opened businesses and are creating jobs for themselves and others. I don’t think that illegal immigrants should be granted amnesty, per se. But I do think that the process should be a lot less arbitrary, and that a lot more consideration should be given to what the person will be able to contribute to their new country.

  281. 281
    ppGaz says:

    We can go back over the thousand or so posts seen at BJ on this topic in the last ten days or so, and then review the bare facts:

    1) There are 10+ million illegal immigrants in the country
    2) They are not going away
    3) We are not going to criminalize them
    4) We are not going to deport them
    5) Most of them are deep into the assimilation process

    Pretty much everything else that’s been said on that subject is just churn.

    Does someone have a practical, humane, sensible alternative to a reasonable path to legal status for these people? If so, bring it forth. If not, we’re done except for the flame wars.

  282. 282
    John S. says:

    It’s a hoot watching you run away from your own issue as fast as you can, while still trying to fling poo at me for exposing you to the ridicule you so richly deserved.

    Not nearly as much fun as watching you dig your hole deeper by being even more wrong with each passing moronic statement you make. I know you can’t stand being wrong, but at this point you really are making an ass of yourself. Anyone can see what I have written from the beginning and realize that the caricature you are painting looks nothing like me.

    Your original point was what? That some Hispanics are rude to you? And worse, they have another language to be rude to you in?

    The original point was that there are other circumstances where people will speak Spanish in front of people they think don’t speak Spanish other than the ‘you look like a paranoid cracker’ rationale offered up by Jaime. There are of course many other possibilites that are equally valid. I was merely commenting on one.

    If you had better reading comprehension, you’d have gotten that from the get-go.

    Wow. Maybe you can move to Canada and put more distance between yourself and those awful people?

    I have no desire to leave my Hispanic friends behind. I have no issue with them on a grand scale. Whatever gripes I have with people are on a personal basis, and have more to do with personality traits than with sweeping generalizations.

    Maybe you can stop looking like a buffoon trumpeting shit that doesn’t apply to me, but then you’d first have to admit that you completely misunderstood me and have been misrepresenting my opinion all along.

    I won’t hold my breath.

  283. 283
    John S. says:

    I’ve known priests who’d speak Latin when they didn’t want to be understood. This situation doesn’t strike me as all that much different.

    It isn’t.

    I’d say that happens all across the board. My friends and I have spoken French to each other while at a club, to reduce the chances of being eavesdropped upon.

    I totally agree. This is why I said:

    To be fair though, this is certainly not the norm, and I feel that only rude people engage in such behavior to begin with – regardless of their origin.

    I’m done beating this horse now, as it is thoroughly deceased.

  284. 284
    ppGaz says:

    someone speaks Spanish in front of me – when they can also speak English – specifically to try to say something they don’t want me to hear because they think I don’t understand them is the behavior of a rude individual. When they realize I understand them, a few chuckles usually follow as if to say ‘the jig is up’.

    There it is, John. The crux of our flame war. Your words.

    Shorter you: “Mexicans can be rude to me.”

    Wow. You must be very proud of it.

  285. 285
    ppGaz says:

    Maybe you can stop looking like a buffoon

    Not much hope of that, as long as I am standing next to you, John.

  286. 286
    OCSteve says:

    We can go back over the thousand or so posts seen at BJ on this topic in the last ten days

    Masochist. :)

  287. 287
    ppGaz says:

    Masochist.

    You’re right, I should have said “You can go back …”

  288. 288
    John S. says:

    There it is, John. The crux of our flame war. Your words.

    The crux is your inability to comprehend what I mean by that compounded by your arrogance.

    Here’s the real shorter me: Sometimes people speak Spanish in front of people for other reasons than they can’t speak English.

    Not much hope of that, as long as I am standing next to you, John.

    Your appeal to ridicule doesn’t really help make your case. I actually find it highly amusing how adamant you are in assuming you know my thoughts and motives better than I do. You might as well be arguing that I’m a Tibetan Buddhist.

  289. 289
    capelza says:

    ppGaz Says:

    someone speaks Spanish in front of me – when they can also speak English – specifically to try to say something they don’t want me to hear because they think I don’t understand them is the behavior of a rude individual. When they realize I understand them, a few chuckles usually follow as if to say ‘the jig is up’.

    There it is, John. The crux of our flame war. Your words.

    Shorter you: “Mexicans can be rude to me.”

    Wow. You must be very proud of it.

    Hahahaa…try being in Bristol Bay and a group of natives swith to their own language when you walk by…nothing like it.

    Really, have you never been to a bar, where you might sit down at a table full of women, who immediately switch to “code”? And if you don’t know what I mean, “code” sounds just like English, but what is being said has nothing to do with the words… :)

  290. 290
    Steve says:

    Any woman who thinks she needs to switch to “code” so that men won’t understand her doesn’t know much about men.

  291. 291
    capelza says:

    Oh I beg to differ, Steve…when an unwelcome gentleman parks his butt at a table full of women, it has been my experience that “code” is indeed lost on him because doesn’t realise that he is being pilloried to his face or a discussion continues that has no meaning to him, and in frustration asks us what the hell we are talking about because he finally realises that we are laughin AT him, not with him. Gets offended, calls us bitches and storms off. Mission accomplished.

  292. 292
    ppGaz says:

    Sometimes people speak Spanish in front of people for other reasons than they can’t speak English.

    Wha? So what? Who gives a shit? Seriously, who gives a shit? Which was MY original point, in case you missed it while you were ranting about being misunderstood.

  293. 293
    Steve says:

    I’m just saying, I routinely fail to understand women even without some concerted effort being made. It’s in my genes.

    There is a male version of the same incident you describe, of course, but it generally relies on the woman being stupid and/or drunk. We’re not as smooth, I guess.

  294. 294
    ppGaz says:

    Really, have you never been to a bar, where you might sit down at a table full of women, who immediately switch to “code”? And if you don’t know what I mean, “code” sounds just like English, but what is being said has nothing to do with the words…

    Sure. Also been to gatherings of my own in-laws who would switch to Spanish and talk about me while I was in the room. And laugh. And point!

    The thing is, things like this don’t bother me. I don’t find it upsetting in any way. I hear what is mine to hear. If I can’t understand, then it is not mine to understand.

    When the inlaws laughed at me, I laughed right along with them. After a while, they tired of the joke and included me in what they were saying. Had I acted insulted, they probably would have kept doing it. Good for them!

  295. 295
    capelza says:

    We’re not as smooth, I guess.

    And I find that trait very endearing… :)

    My original point is that any number of groups of people switch to some arcane “language” for a variety of reasons, not just Hispanics. Lord even parents speak “code” in front of the kids..though here, I do agree, the code is quite easy to “break”..and vice versa, kids always think they are being sneaky. LOL.

  296. 296
    John S. says:

    Wha? So what? Who gives a shit? Seriously, who gives a shit?

    An excellent retreat. Considering that you’ve been ranting about it for a while now, I presume you gave a shit. But no matter, the point was really directed at Jaime’s idiotic remarks to Rome, so you may walk away quietly without any incident.

    Would you agree that Paris is the capital of France?

    Good. Now that we’re back in agreement…

  297. 297

    Pretty much everything else that’s been said on that subject is just churn.

    And this post wins the seldom seen TOS strawman award.

    At no point did you address the issue of “How do we stop more illegals from entering the country?”

    You talk about a bunch of other shit, which isn’t in dispute, but you don’t deal with that.

    Why is it that you are afraid to address the issues before us and instead invent these strawmen?

  298. 298

    I’ll also note, that what I found interesting about this discussion is that there were a handful of individuals such as myself, KCinDC, and a few others who were trying to have an intelligent reasonable discussion trying to understand the issue and what we could do, if anything.

    But unfortunately that was too much for a handful of deadenders who thought it was more appropriate to toss out strawman arguments, racial epithets and insults.

    Just interesting how such behavior fails to win anybody over to your side of the argument.

  299. 299
    Steve says:

    Well, in all fairness, the “reasonable” faction seemed to have a real problem acknowledging that there could be any “reasonable” people out there who wouldn’t agree with them. “I’m against illegal immigration, so if you don’t agree with me, you must be pro-illegal immigration.” Or, we could take everyone who thinks that it’s physically impossible to deport 12 million illegals, and that we need a more rational solution, and deride them as the “open borders crowd.”

    I think it was a productive discussion in spite of some of the cheap shots that were taken. There was certainly a lot of comedy gold in this thread.

  300. 300
    ppGaz says:

    At no point did you address the issue of “How do we stop more illegals from entering the country?”

    You talk about a bunch of other shit, which isn’t in dispute, but you don’t deal with that.

    Why is it that you are afraid to address the issues before us and instead invent these strawmen?

    Yeah, what bullshit from Mister My Girlfriend is Upset. What a crock, man.

    The issue that is foremost is not “how to stop illegals.”

    It’s “what to do with the illegals who are here.” That’s where the political energy is, that’s what the demonstrations were about, that’s what Hayworth is talking about on every talking head show on tv the last week. That’s what this thread is about, if you’ll notice the blurb at the top of the thread.

    You’re the one who is out of the loop, Steve. Not me.

  301. 301
    Faux News says:

    What about the Gays’ “War on the Whitehouse Easter Egg Hunt”? Surely Darrell will soon argue this is far more important than illegal immigration.

  302. 302
    ppGaz says:

    Considering that you’ve been ranting about it for a while now, I presume you gave a shit.

    The best retort to you is your own words:

    someone speaks Spanish in front of me – when they can also speak English – specifically to try to say something they don’t want me to hear because they think I don’t understand them is the behavior of a rude individual. When they realize I understand them, a few chuckles usually follow as if to say ‘the jig is up’.

    John lectures on the subject of those rude Mexicans.

    Completetly full of shit, AFAIC. Same thing I said to you yesterday, hasn’t changed.

  303. 303
    jaime says:

    As long as there’s knuckle dragging mouthbreathing government radio talkshow hosts and their listeners having a conversations how illegal immigrants are actually ‘invading disease carrying ignorant job stealing alien hordes plotting to steal Texas for Mexico and smuggle nukes inside bales of Marijuana’ and they would get along great with them if they only weren’t so poor and Mexican, then I will continue to be harsh in my rhetoric.

    If people don’t like being told they come across as paranoid cracker asses (not that they are, but they come across that way. I know John S. purposefully ignored that distinction even though he wasn’t being addressed) then quit posting stuff that makes you look like a parnoid cracker ass.

  304. 304
    DougJ says:

    How about a show of hands: how many people here want to spend billions of dollars erecting a fence on the border to make sure no one sneaks over and breaks into “secret Spanish talk” in front of us?

  305. 305

    The issue that is foremost is not “how to stop illegals.”

    It’s “what to do with the illegals who are here.”

    No it’s not. It’s how to stop illegals.

    Sorry if you didn’t understand that. Perhaps this explains why you’ve been babbling incoherently rather than trying to provide valuable commentary to the discussion.

    You’re the one who is out of the loop, Steve. Not me.

    Sorry, no.

    I’ve tried to explain things to you at multiple times, and you continue to willfully ignore and misinterpret them. It went beyond just simple misunderstanding, and turned into a clear purposefulness on your part.

    I just made the comment as an FYI, that your tactic does more to drive people away from your position than to embrace it. Continuing to pretend to be outraged and throwing additional insults is not helping you, BTW.

  306. 306
    Tom in Texas says:

    The only effective way to prevent immigrants from attempting to cross our borders is to raise the standard of living in their own country. A wall is an impossibility. If any of you have spent time along the border you know that cities like El Paso/Juarez, Brownsville/Matamoros, and San Diego/Tijuana are essentially one huge city. With the massive amount of daily traffic occuring there, and the huge amount of Spanish speakers on the American side of the border, it is simply unrealistic to expect us to catch those at the borders who want to come. We have to give them a reason to stay in Mexico — notice how fewer immigrants attempt to cross from Canada. The standard of living there being equivilant to the US precludes an attempt at immigrating.
    The assimilation issue is another one entirely. I can only speak from the perspective of one large American city (Houston), since that’s the only one I’ve lived in, but this city is truly a melting pot. There is a Viettown, two Chinatowns (one with street signs in English and Chinese), and virtually the entire southeatern corridor is Hispanic — not just Mexican, mind you, but cirtizens from throughout Central and South America and the Caribbean. In every one of these enclaves, the citizens proudly represent their heritage — menus are in the local language as well as English, street signs are (as mentioned) bilingual as well. I do not think it makes them any less American to be proud of their homeland. Frankly I find it unbelievably hypocritical that some would call for a guest worker program that calls for a tortuous route to citizenship, if ever, and then feign outrage at someone flying the flag of the only country willing to accept them as citizens. If we truly want them to accept and embrace America, we cannot continually tell them that their languiage, culture, customs, and way of life are second rate.

  307. 307
    Steve says:

    There is no way to “stop illegals,” which I think would be obvious. We can certainly do things that make illegal immigration more or less common at the margins, which comes down to a boring cost-benefit analysis. But no matter what we do, we already have 12 million illegals here, we are guaranteed to have an influx of many many more no matter what policies we enact, and thus, it makes a lot of sense to focus our attention on the issue of what we do about them rather than pretending we can erect some kind of magic fence.

  308. 308
    ppGaz says:

    Sorry if you didn’t understand that

    Nope, I don’t agree. I’ve been following this topic on BJ pretty closely … I have never seen any discussion of “how to stop illegals.” Nor is this thread about “how to stop illegals” unless you completely ignore the Hayworth reference that is at the root of the thread. Listen to Hayworth if you don’t believe me. He is all about “amnesty” and “sending wrong messages” and “rewarding illegal behavior” .. all about what NOT to do with the existing illegals. Can’t “reward” them for being here. All that bullshit.

    So that’s just point number one.

    Number two is your bullshit whining about your goddammed girlfriend and how she thinks that she is getting some sort of bad deal because … I don’t know, it’s your rant, you write it. Anyway, it’s fucking bullshit. We should formulate a policy that affects ten or more million people because your girlfriend might feel slighted? FUCK THAT, can I be any more clear? Fuck that, Steve. The ten million people are more important, whether you like it or not.

    Number three is this: If you have some good idea about how to “stop illegals” then PUT IT OUT THERE and argue it. Otherwise why don’t you SHUT UP about it?

    I don’t think you have any such idea, nor does anyone else here have such an idea. Do they? Where is it?

  309. 309
    ppGaz says:

    your tactic does more to drive people away from your position than to embrace it

    I don’t care, Steve. I’ll put my tactic up against yours any day.

    Also, I am not, as I have said a million (okay, four) times before, here to make friends or run for office. I don’t give a flying fig who goes to my position and who doesn’t. This is theater, not debate, not the same thing. That’s a reality — check the NAME OF THE BLOG if you doubt me.

    Also, what makes you think you know what my position is? Or for that matter, what makes you think anyone knows what yours is? All I know from you is what your girlfriend thinks, and for that, see my previous post.

  310. 310
    Tom in Texas says:

    Can we please, please change the names of all these cities in the Southwest? They are in (gasp!) SPANISH after all. I am so sick of having to call it “Los Angeles” or “San Diego.” “Freedom Town” and “Stars-and-Stripes-ville” work much better for me. It is simply unAmerican to call them by some strange language I don’t speak. The only exception for this rule is San Francisco. They should just ban English from that city entirely. They’re not true Americans anyway.

  311. 311
    Krista says:

    Tom in Texas – excellent point, and one that’s gone unaddressed. When you’ve got a third-world nation sharing a border with a first-world nation that continually sells itself as being the greatest country in the world, then of course you’re going to have people hopping over the border in droves. The question is: how does the US help Mexico become a more equitable and sustainable society, so that those living in Mexico will not have to illegally immigrate, just to be able to feed their kids?

  312. 312
    Krista says:

    By the way, the “excellent point” comment was for your 1:17pm sincere post, not your 1:27 pm snark (albeit, very nicely done snark) post.

  313. 313
    Tom in Texas says:

    Krista;
    Thank you for the compliment, and in answer to your question, I submit that the solution exists already: NAFTA. Globalization, properly applied, can be a huge force for change in the world. It has thrust nations such as China and India into virtually first world status. While there are certainly examples of companies exploiting other nations for cheap labor and doing nothing to improve their standards, and while globalization undoubtedly has a negative effect on some citizens in our nation, we must allow these immigrants who come here to work the opportunity to have a good paying job in their homeland, and we can still benefit from the lower production costs here.

  314. 314
    Tom in Texas says:

    And I will try to keep the snarkiness to a minimum. But on this board, it can be a challenge…

  315. 315
    Steve says:

    I don’t see how a principled free-trader can be in favor of the free movement of everything except human capital.

  316. 316
    Beavis says:

    Sowell has a good answer for you Steve.

    http://www.townhall.com/opinio.....93239.html

    “Some free-market advocates argue that the same principle which justifies free international trade in commodities should justify the free movement of people as well. But this ignores the fact that people have consequences that go far beyond the consequences of commodities.

    Commodities are used up and vanish. People generate more people, who become a permanent and expanding part of the country’s population and electorate.

    It is an irreversible process — and a potentially dangerous process, as Europeans have discovered with their “guest worker” programs that have brought in many Muslims who are fundamentally hostile to the culture and the people that welcomed them.

    Unlike commodities, people in a welfare state have legal claims on other people’s tax dollars and expensive services in schools and hospitals, not to mention the high cost of imprisoning many of them who commit crimes. “

  317. 317
    Tom in Texas says:

    Steve;
    I am not really sure if your 1:40 comment was directed at me or not, but I assure you I am not against the free movement of humans at all. I think immigration has been a priceless benefit to this country, and one I am in no hurry to stop. I am simply saying that if we wish to stop those who are willing to risk everything and break the law by coming here, we should give them a reason to stay where they are. The key to solving our immigration problems is not a gigantic wall along our border, or unmanned drones, or the creation of a permanent underclass.

  318. 318
    Krista says:

    I wouldn’t bother suppressing the snark. Nobody else does.

  319. 319
    Steve says:

    It is an irreversible process—and a potentially dangerous process, as Europeans have discovered with their “guest worker” programs that have brought in many Muslims who are fundamentally hostile to the culture and the people that welcomed them.

    Well, that’s a good answer by Sowell. Now, my question is, if Sowell and other conservatives are willing to acknowledge that there are cultural priorities that justify making an exception to pure free trade principles, do I get to argue for my own exceptions? Because I happen to think that preserving a living wage and humane working conditions for American workers is well worth a little protectionism. Certainly, I think it’s more important than protecting our culture from being overwhelmed by immigrant values, considering our culture is largely derived from all the immigrant groups we assimilated over the years anyway.

  320. 320
    ppGaz says:

    we should give them a reason to stay where they are.

    That is exactly, precisely right.

    The immigration information centers have the data … the flow of immigrants is directly proportional to the perceived imbalance on the two sides of the border.

    And why is that of prime importance? Simple. The borders cannpt be “closed.” You cannot seal thousands of miles of border. You cannot build enough fences or put enough armed guards out there or throw enough helicopters or blimps into the air. The borders are porous and will remain porous.

    You can’t criminalize the immigrants, either. You can’t build enough jails or deport enough of them to stem the tide.

    Those are just realities, and as soon as the Darrells of the Right and the other idiots stop stamping their feet and waving their arms and agree to those realities, the sooner responsible policy will be achieved.

    But … there’s a twist. This thread, last weeks demonstrations, the fight going on in Congress … not about the realities, either. What they’re about is the crass politicization of the situation by people who are determined to use them for their own purposes. Example: Hayworth. He’s quite typical. He’s Darrell with a lot of money and a seat in Congress.

    That’s your problem, and that’s the only problem that is going to get dealt with here.

  321. 321
    Beavis says:

    If you’re a protectionist on trade of goods than there’s no way you can be for open borders.

    The current Latino immigration is 25 million since 1990. This is unprecedented and assimilation is the real concern. If another large amnesty is granted, without a serious increase in border security and internal enforcement, we’ll be talking about 20 million more illegals in 10 years.

    No society can have unlimited immigration. Large unskilled, uneducated, non-English speaking immigration is a horrendous economic policy. A very good argument exists for legal immigration based on a point system, like in Canada. They have had large legal immigration with no assimilation problems because they control who comes in with regards to education, language, etc.

  322. 322
    Tom in Texas says:

    Steve;
    I fail to see how allowing Mexicans to build cars in Puebla as opposed to Detroit has any effect whatsoever on humane working conditions for American workers. I am not advocating inhumane working conditions anywhere, America or not. And a living wage is frankly unattainable in our society with the demand we have for cheap goods and services. Until we are willing to pay double the cost of an entree item, illegals will be employed at low wages as dishwashers/cooks. Until we are willing to pay more for groceries, they will be grown by immigrant laborers and trucked by immigrant drivers. Personally I am willing to pay a little more to go somewhere else, but most Americans aren’t.

  323. 323
    Beavis says:

    PPgaz, it’s funny because Mexico has the same problem (with lots of poorer people coming over their southern border seeking opportunity) and they don’t take your attitude. They have draconian immigration laws, tough border enforcement, and certainly don’t try to help their neighbors economically.

  324. 324
    Kirk Spencer says:

    We can stop – or drastically reduce – our illegal immigrant population. The hidden part of that, however, is the cost.

    Putting up a wall is insufficient. It has to be watched. Not patrolled, watched. And checked to ensure that there’s not a blindspot for the watchers. And the wall has to be backed up by measures to detect attempts to bypass — polevaulting and tunnelling being two examples. A method that would work pretty good would be the one that split Berlin.

    The problem, again, is cost. Not only dollars, but culture. Living near/with a wall like that wears on one – it’s a permanent reminder that you’re on the defensive, under constant threat. For some, it’s a constant reminder that “freedom isn’t for everybody.” For yet more, it’s a challenge – an opportunity to gain wealth and notoriety as one who gets through/around the wall. These were all problems in Berlin, and they’d be problems here.

    If you’re not going to make a physical wall you need more – a lot more – people. The principle’s the same, but it’s not as obvious to the folk trying to ignore it and go on with their lives. It’s also more expensive.

    And the wall needs to be not only on the Mexican border but on our northern border as well. And it probably wouldn’t hurt to wall off all the ports. International airports are almost walled as it is, just a few tweaks would probably finish them. Except, of course, for a huge increase in security staffing.

    If you are not prepared to increase the border security forces to a size comparable to the military, you are fooling yourself. It can be a little less (I think), but by the time you have not only guards on the line but their support and backups and supervisors and admin tail and… it’s a pretty big force. Probably don’t need the full military budget – I don’t see the need for F-22s (for example), but the bodies are non-negotiable.

    And if you’re not willing to spend the billions necessary to man and equip a border security like that, then you’re not going to stop illegal immigrants.

  325. 325
    Krista says:

    A very good argument exists for legal immigration based on a point system, like in Canada. They have had large legal immigration with no assimilation problems because they control who comes in with regards to education, language, etc.

    In theory, yes. In practice, not so much. Our immigration policies are very unevenly applied, and are bogged down with unearthly amounts of red tape. The only reasons, IMHO, why we don’t have the same major immigration problems that you do are a) becasue we don’t share a border with a third-world nation, and b) PR – the US has long touted itself as being the best damn country on Earth, home of freedom and opportunity, the place where you can make your dreams come true, etc. etc. Well, the PR campaign has worked like gangbusters. Now everybody wants in, because they’ve been told that there’s no better place on earth.

  326. 326
    ppGaz says:

    PPgaz, it’s funny because Mexico has the same problem (with lots of poorer people coming over their southern border seeking opportunity) and they don’t take your attitude. They have draconian immigration laws, tough border enforcement, and certainly don’t try to help their neighbors economically.

    Yes, Mexico is draconian in a myriad of ways. Should we use them as an example for ….. anything?

    Their government strikes me as being basically Third World.

  327. 327
    ppGaz says:

    A method that would work pretty good would be the one that split Berlin.

    Uh huh. A few miles, versus thousands of miles.

    Not gonna happen. America, the Walled Empire?

    No.

  328. 328
    Steve says:

    If you’re a protectionist on trade of goods than there’s no way you can be for open borders.

    Can you find me one person in this thread who is for “open borders”? You seem to have a private understanding of those words that doesn’t much correspond to their meaning in English.

    I am not advocating inhumane working conditions anywhere, America or not. And a living wage is frankly unattainable in our society with the demand we have for cheap goods and services.

    Ok, I get that you’re not “advocating,” but the fact is, if unionized American workers have to compete with abused workers in Chinese sweatshops, it’s a losing battle. Either you advocate protectionist measures against countries that permit inhumane working conditions – and yes, I get that voters want to buy their products cheap – or else you condone those conditions.

    Nothing comes free. Of course a minimum wage ends up costing consumers more. Of course health and safety regulations cost consumers more. Of course unionization and collective bargaining cost consumers more. But the point is, if we as a society think those things are important, then we ought to be willing to make a little sacrifice collectively to make them happen. These are choices we make on a societal level, and it’s not inherently wrong to place limits on free trade if it helps us preserve other values we believe are important.

  329. 329
    Rome Again says:

    Laura said:

    I can’t even begin to understand why anybody would have a problem with that. Sometimes my brother will switch to Spanish because he knows the other person he’s talking to is more comfortable in Spanish, even if their English sounds fine. Other times he’ll speak Spanish when he hears someone speaking both English and Spanish. Like ppGaz said, it can be a bonding experience. People get excited to learn that this white, blue eyed American speaks perfect Spanish. It’s amazing to see strangers warm up to him. He’s met some great, interesting people because he’s willing to speak to them in their first language. I’m envious. The next time you hear someone switch to Spanish, instead of taking it personally and assuming they’re being rude to you, you might consider their reason for speaking Spanish has absolutely nothing to do with you.

    Yes, I’ve seen many people misrepresenting what I said yesterday. What I was talking about was having a group of Spanish speakers and English speakers together, and while the English speakers were still present (and everyone was speaking English) then Spanish speakers break out into spanish leaving the English speakers standing there not understanding what is being said.

    I would have no problem with someone ending a conversation and signalling that the conversation is over, making it clear that there is a transition in phase, giving the English speakers some kind of acknowledgement that the conversation is now going to switch to another language, but that sort of thing never occurs.

    I don’t have a problem with others speaking a different language, just don’t expect me to stand around and pretend like I understand it.

    You stated, Laura, that Spanish speakers “warm up” to your brother. That is what it is coming to. For those who don’t speak “their language” they will not warm up, yet English has always been spoken here. They are changing the language of this country.

    Years ago, when I was in sixth grade, I had the choice of taking Spanish or French as a foreign language. My father wanted me to choose French, because he felt I would gain more out of it. I took Spanish, yet they didn’t teach us a whole lot. I can count to 100, I know how to say hello and pencil and such, but I don’t really know how to communicate with them.

    If they come here (an English speaking country) and expect us to communicate with them, they should not expect us to be the ones to change.

  330. 330
    Beavis says:

    Krista, I think you overrate the motivations of most of these Mexican peasants coming to the US. They come to earn money, a significant amount of which is shipped home. They do not love American culture, language, etc. I don’t blame them for coming here but they are not driven here by anything more than $$.

  331. 331
    Tom in Texas says:

    Beavis;
    There is no such thing as an American culture — short of a belief in the Bill of Rights and an understanding of basic human freedoms, our culture is constantly evolving and shifting based on precisely those immigrants some are so uncomfortable with. Pizza was an ethnic food, remember. Now it is sold at baseball games. Culture is not static — we do not hold the same cultural values we held when the Mayflower landed, after all. And of course the immigrants come to make money — we are the land of opportunity, after all. Horatio Alger and all that.

  332. 332
    Rome Again says:

    Laura,

    You stated that when these illegals rent apartments, buy gas and purchase items, they are paying their way and deserve healthcare. Funny, I mentioned last night that there are two and three families living in single family housing. They don’t all have cars (they borrow rides from neighbors or housemates instead) and they do not make a lot of big item purchases. When I worked for a construction company where they were “the crew” they were paid mostly under the table. They are not holding the tax-base you give them credit for.

  333. 333
    Tom in Texas says:

    Rome;
    I think there may be more than just illegals living in overcrowded conditions in our inner cities, and many American citizens borrow their cars as well. Anyone who makes a low income, has a family, or suffers an illness will be a net drain on our tax base — unless they make a large amount of money, the services they use exceed the amount they pay.

  334. 334
    Rome Again says:

    Tom in Texas,

    The people who brought us pizza learned to speak the language, I married one.

    There is an American culture, it’s the one I grew up with, and see changing. I was brought up on pizza, and pierogies and all sorts of “ethnic” food. I was also brought up to speak the language of America (English) which is now changing to Spanish.

  335. 335
    ppGaz says:

    Krista, I think you overrate the motivations of most of these Mexican peasants coming to the US. They come to earn money, a significant amount of which is shipped home. They do not love American culture, language, etc. I don’t blame them for coming here but they are not driven here by anything more than $$.

    Wherein we replace the obsolete Statue of Liberty with the new Statue of Beavis, ladies and gentlemen.

  336. 336
    Krista says:

    Krista, I think you overrate the motivations of most of these Mexican peasants coming to the US. They come to earn money, a significant amount of which is shipped home. They do not love American culture, language, etc. I don’t blame them for coming here but they are not driven here by anything more than $$.

    That’s the thing, though. American culture is very much ABOUT money. Success. Wealth. The American Dream ™. Move to America, work hard, and you could someday own a big house adn a fancy car. Media coming out of the US shows daily examples of the most conspicuous consumerism ever. To many societies, American culture is inextricably linked with money. That’s the image that has been sold to them.

  337. 337
    Tom in Texas says:

    Rome;
    My point is that American culture evolves. The America you grew up in is not the America your grandparents did (assuming you are not an immigrant yourself). And the America your children grow up in will not be the America you remember. That pizza you ate wasn’t there in the 1800’s. And the burritos we eat now were not there a hundred years ago either. It is naive to expect our nation to remain static in a constantly evolving world, particularly when we play such a large role in it. Our language has not, and will not, change to Spanish. The majority of the Mexicans I know, whether citizens of America or not, do speak English — and every one of their kids does.

  338. 338
    Rome Again says:

    Anyone who makes a low income, has a family, or suffers an illness will be a net drain on our tax base—unless they make a large amount of money, the services they use exceed the amount they pay.

    Really, I don’t make a great income, I’m at $12.00 an hour. I go to doctors very rarely. I’m not using up any publicly funded services, I don’t have a great debt on society. I pay my taxes, I earn my lowly income, I’m not exceeding my pay.

    It seems to me what you are describing is a net negative each time someone new comes into our country and has a family, might have a low income or gets sick? I guess that’s okay with you? As an American, I was brought up to expect that this country will do what it can to make sure we don’t end up in that kind of fiscal nightmare. Of course, we’ve failed in that regard, but as an American I would have expected America to fend off such situations.

  339. 339
    ppGaz says:

    I would have expected America to fend off such situations.

    Well, you are in Republican America now.

    Only the rich and the corporations get that kind of treatment.

  340. 340
    Tom in Texas says:

    It seems to me what you are describing is a net negative each time someone new comes into our country and has a family, might have a low income or gets sick? I guess that’s okay with you? As an American, I was brought up to expect that this country will do what it can to make sure we don’t end up in that kind of fiscal nightmare.

    Yes, this is precisely what I am describing. Our tax system is progressive. Unless you have no dependents or unforeseen expenses (such as I), the chances are high that a citizen of this nation at the bottom end of the economic ladder uses more services than they put into the system. This is a reality — it makes no difference whether the person/family is an American citizen or not.

  341. 341
    Rome Again says:

    Our language has not, and will not, change to Spanish. The majority of the Mexicans I know, whether citizens of America or not, do speak English—and every one of their kids does.

    I find that hard to believe when I have to have a translator to speak to some of my own employees. I did not hire these people, but I have to work with them. I do have a tendancy to hire only English speakers though. When I became a manager, a young Latino who speaks English took over my route, and she does an awesome job. Yet, I still have about 15 employees who do not speak my language and I have to communicate with.

    Yes, perhaps in another generation it will be easier, yet, this exodus out of Mexico will probably last longer than that. Some Latinos were coming to this country before I was born, I’m now in my mid-40’s, and I’m suffering this language barrier now.

  342. 342
    Steve says:

    Well, sure, and down through the ages, the vast majority of immigrants to this country have been at the bottom end of the economic ladder. The reason our system works so well is that we give these people a helping hand, we educate their kids, and before you know it they’re a net benefit for society. Frankly, in terms of making something for themselves, I’ll take a hungry immigrant with a survival imperative over a spoiled suburban kid who thinks his birthright is to hang out at the mall with impunity, any day of the week.

  343. 343
    Rome Again says:

    Yes, this is precisely what I am describing. Our tax system is progressive. Unless you have no dependents or unforeseen expenses (such as I), the chances are high that a citizen of this nation at the bottom end of the economic ladder uses more services than they put into the system. This is a reality—it makes no difference whether the person/family is an American citizen or not.

    Then we can expect to swirl down the toilet eventually.

  344. 344
    Rome Again says:

    Frankly, in terms of making something for themselves, I’ll take a hungry immigrant with a survival imperative over a spoiled suburban kid who thinks his birthright is to hang out at the mall with impunity, any day of the week

    Well, I agree that spoiled suburban kids aren’t doing anything to help themselves, but spoiled suburban kids eventually grow up and become valued members of society. My problem is not so much with whether someone works or doesn’t work, it’s with whether they are changing our culture. I don’t want to live in a country where I can’t speak the language I was brought up speaking when I was here all along.

  345. 345
    Steve says:

    How do you know you’re not going to have any unforeseeable expenses, by the way? One of the reasons we have a safety net is that most of us face the chance of being the unlucky one. You might get unexpectedly laid off and have to collect unemployment. You might get terribly sick, have to quit your job, and end up a Medicare patient.

    This reminds me of something that came up once at work when I was trying to negotiate a settlement agreement. “I want that language in there to take care of any unforeseeable events,” I said. “I don’t see the need,” said the other lawyer. “Can you give me an example of an unforeseeable event?” Well, no, I couldn’t, or it wouldn’t be unforeseeable!

  346. 346
    Steve says:

    I don’t want to live in a country where I can’t speak the language I was brought up speaking when I was here all along.

    I still don’t get, after 350-odd posts, why Hispanic immigration poses so much more of a threat to the English language than our assimilation of any number of non-English-speaking groups throughout history. Drive down to Chinatown and look at all the Chinese signs. Drive over to Brighton Beach and look at all the signs in Russian. Yet 100% of Hispanic immigrants speak English as their primary language by the third generation. ONE HUNDRED PERCENT!

    Where is the danger here? What are we so afraid of?

  347. 347
    Rome Again says:

    This reminds me of something that came up once at work when I was trying to negotiate a settlement agreement. “I want that language in there to take care of any unforeseeable events,” I said. “I don’t see the need,” said the other lawyer. “Can you give me an example of an unforeseeable event?” Well, no, I couldn’t, or it wouldn’t be unforeseeable!

    Look, I’m not saying I’ll never get sick, or need assistance. Personally I would do everything I can to not need assistance. I’m the type who would rather die in the street than take a dime from the public assistance coffers. Let’s hope it never comes to that, but my choice would be to not be a burden on society.

  348. 348
    Rome Again says:

    Well Steve, I don’t live near Chinatown, or Brighton Beach. The difference is those people maintain those communities. The hispanic population is now in the northeast, and mid-America, and they don’t adapt to the language as well as the Chinese or the Russians do.

    While the Chinese and Russians may have local signs in their communities, businesses are not pushing to have duel Chinese or Russian communication memos, billboards on the steret are not changed into different languages, and this nation doesn’t have an ongoing debate as to whether we should change our language to Russian or Chinese.

    Things ARE different with the Spanish language, whether you want to believe it or not.

    Personally, almost half of my employees are Latinos, and almost half of those Latinos don’t speak English. Find another language that is impacting business in such a way.

  349. 349
    Steve says:

    Do you want to dispute the statistic that 100% of Hispanic immigrants speak English as their primary language by the third generation? If not, then I really don’t understand how you’re afraid the US will become “a country where I can’t speak the language I was brought up speaking when I was here all along.”

  350. 350
    Tom in Texas says:

    Rome — I have no idea where you live, so I can’t presume to know how immigrants in your community assimilate themselves. I can state unequivocably that the Chinese, Persian, and hundreds of other communities in my town of Houston are not as perfectly assimilated as you presume them to be. There are street signs in Chinese in Houston, as well as billboards. There are restaurants where there is no English menu. There are radio stations such as Little Saigon that are only in Vietnamese. The hispanics among us are merely one of a hundred ethnic groups, and are no more opposed to this forgotten American culture you yearn for of fifty years ago than any other group.

  351. 351
    Tom in Texas says:

    Incidentally, in your worst case scenario where Spanish is adopted as our second national language, do you really believe that English would be outlawed? You claim that “I don’t want to live in a country where I can’t speak the language I was brought up speaking when I was here all along.” Who is telling you you can’t speak English?

  352. 352
    Beavis says:

    Steve,

    I don’t quite understand your position. You sound like you think US immigration policy should be an anti-poverty program for the less fortunate in Mexico and Central America. It’s as if the US has no right (or ability) to control its immigration policy. Good economic policy via immigration would be to admit educated, skilled workers in sectors that need these type of workers – they immediately add to economic output and don’t cost taxpayers. Even Mexican immigrants with high school equivalent educations don’t cover their cost to taxpayers over their working life.

    Your other point about spoiled brats in this country is a direct function of the imported illegal labor. When I was a kid my parents made me rake the lawn, mow the yard, etc. and that’s part of creating a work ethic. Today kids play video games while an illegal cuts the grass. Kids used to do summer agricultural jobs in great numbers in the past.

  353. 353
    Steve says:

    I’m hardly saying the US has no right to control its immigration policy. If I believed that, then I wouldn’t be weighing in as a voter on what I think the immigration policy should be. If I disagree that we should deport 12 million people, it’s not that I don’t think we have a right to enforce the immigration laws, it’s just that I think the idea is completely impractical and absurd.

    The business about kids being lazy today because illegals do the jobs they used to do sounds like the typical conservative BS where everything that’s wrong with society is the fault of some disfavored group. I thought you said your parents made you mow the lawn to instill a work ethic, not because they couldn’t find anyone else willing to mow the lawn.

  354. 354
    Beavis says:

    Steve,

    I’m not faulting the illegal immigrants themselves. Rather, it is symptomatic of this “jobs Americans won’t do” mentality that many things are beneath us now as a nation.

    As far as what to do with those here now deporation is not a credible option. But that doesn’t mean you have a large amnesty and invite in the next 20 million more to be amnestied by Ted Kennedy or one of his relatives 10 years from now.

    The incentive to come must be reduced. The cost must be increased (through fencing, cameras, drones, etc. to increase the catch rate) and the employer enforcement must be instituted to remove the employment magnet. A fraud-proof ID (holographics, biometrics) must be created to stop once and for all the mass hiring of illegals.

  355. 355
    ppGaz says:

    The incentive to come must be reduced. The cost must be increased (through fencing, cameras, drones, etc. to increase the catch rate)

    Yeah, right. To get back to 1990’s levels now, you’d have had to “catch” and process a million or two more people a year in the last 5-6 years than you have actually processed. That’s — what? — three to six thousand more every day, 365 days a year. That’s just to get back to 1990’s levels. To get to zero or anything near it, maybe double that rate.

    It’s a numbers game. Not gonna happen. The Big Wall isn’t going up, and the army of officers and fleets of buses and detention centers …. not going to be built. Just not gonna happen.

    You are dreaming, sir.

    As Chris Matthews said the other day, this is a country that couldn’t get a hundred thousand people out of one place in an emergency. You are going to do that every other week from now on, month in and month out, year in and year out ….?

    I’m sorry, where is TOS asking “How do we stop the illegals” when you need him?

    How, indeed? Keep dreaming.

  356. 356
    jaime says:

    It’s as if the US has no right (or ability) to control its immigration policy.

    No we do, but immigration policy often seems arbitrary, racist, and counter productive. But hey, we had too many Jews here in the 30’s anyhow. Thank goodness we restricted their access before WWII. My grandfather never liked ’em anyhow because they would talk all jew-y around him at work, but he knew some Yiddish and when they found out, they laughed and knew the jig was up.

  357. 357
    jaime says:

    and the army of officers and fleets of buses and detention centers …. not going to be built.

    Sounds like a Michelle Malkin wet dream.

  358. 358
    ppGaz says:

    when they found out, they laughed and knew the jig was up.

    Somehow, vaguely familiar ;-)

  359. 359
    Rome Again says:

    Thank goodness we restricted their access before WWII. My grandfather never liked ‘em anyhow because they would talk all jew-y around him at work, but he knew some Yiddish and when they found out, they laughed and knew the jig was up.

    It would be nice if you stick to reality, instead of just making jokes about it.

  360. 360
    Rome Again says:

    Incidentally, in your worst case scenario where Spanish is adopted as our second national language, do you really believe that English would be outlawed? You claim that “I don’t want to live in a country where I can’t speak the language I was brought up speaking when I was here all along.” Who is telling you you can’t speak English?

    I’ll tell you who is telling me I can’t speak English, the people who work for me and refuse to learn English. I either have to employ a translator (which I’ve done so far) or take lessons in Spanish (which I recently asked the translator to teach me).

    I don’t really want to learn Spanish, I have to. I can’t be looking for a translator each time someone asks me a question, and if they call me with a question when I’m out in the field, I’m screwed.

  361. 361
    Steve says:

    If your boss insists on saddling you with subordinates who you can’t communicate with, that’s an issue you have with your boss. It’s not a reason to change the immigration policy of the United States.

  362. 362
    jaime says:

    My great great great grandpappy built railroads when we imported the Chinamen by the tens of thousands. He would get upset too when they would talk that China-talk around him. He didn’t bother to learn any Chinese though, they usually wound up getting buried by collapsed tunnels.

  363. 363
    Kirk Spencer says:

    ppGaz said (in respone to my Berlin Wall comment):

    A method that would work pretty good would be the one that split Berlin.

    Uh huh. A few miles, versus thousands of miles.

    Not gonna happen. America, the Walled Empire?

    No.
    That, sir, was my point.

  364. 364
    Rome Again says:

    As Chris Matthews said the other day, this is a country that couldn’t get a hundred thousand people out of one place in an emergency. You are going to do that every other week from now on, month in and month out, year in and year out ….?

    I hear you saying the problem with immigration can’t be fixed, so why even try, do you feel the same way about other things, such as trying to remove the supposedly immovable shrub from the white house? No, I don’t hear you saying that at all.

    I never thought I’d see you taking a defeatist attitude ppGaz, it troubles me. Sure, I can see you taking a stance that illegals shouldn’t have to leave, but why the defeatism?

  365. 365
    Kirk Spencer says:

    sigh – so much for trying to double-blockquote. For those keeping track, the part outside the blockquote is mostly ppGaz, with the last line being my response.

  366. 366
    Rome Again says:

    If your boss insists on saddling you with subordinates who you can’t communicate with, that’s an issue you have with your boss. It’s not a reason to change the immigration policy of the United States.

    I never said it was, I was merely referring to it as a resulting problem. I said before I would be happy they were here if they would just fit in better, I never said I wanted them to be all thrown out.

  367. 367
    Rome Again says:

    My great great great grandpappy built railroads when we imported the Chinamen by the tens of thousands. He would get upset too when they would talk that China-talk around him. He didn’t bother to learn any Chinese though, they usually wound up getting buried by collapsed tunnels.

    [putting Jaime on ignore]

  368. 368
    ppGaz says:

    That, sir, was my point.

    For agreeing with me, your free carwash coupons are in the mail!

    I have never been above buying the approval of others …

  369. 369
    ppGaz says:

    hear you saying the problem with immigration can’t be fixed

    Boy I’ll tell ya, being in love with an idea is a wondrous thing.

    I never said it was broken. In fact if you look back over the long audit trail of the immigration “issue” here, you’ll see me saying this over and over again: The total immigration rate (legal plus illegal) has remained fairly flat for most of the last century, with the exception of some obvious dips like WWII. Only in the last few years has there been a surge.

    And not just any surge, but a surge of Mexicans. And not just anywhere, but mainly into four states at first, CA, AZ, NM and TX. So the surge has presented some problems to those states.

    But anyway, my main point here is that I don’t think it’s quite the big crisis that the demagogues want you to think it is.

    Additionally, there is the whole “seal the border” idea. As I said, ain’t going to happen. Unless you can introduce a practical solution, I am convinced that the situation you have now is going to remain relatively unchanged for quite a while.

  370. 370
    jaime says:

    [putting Jaime on ignore]

    LONGER ROME: Waaaa. Why don’t people sympathize with the my problem of non-Americans rudely speaking non-American around me?

    The greatest skyscrapers in New York were built by non-Assimilated ferners all speaking different languages. Sorry I’m misinterpreting your latent xenophobia Your “problem” is worthy of ridicule.

  371. 371
    Rome Again says:

    ppGaz, we have a lot of Mexicans in Florida too, they are not all Cubans or Haitians here. As a matter of fact, the problems here didn’t start up with Cubans or Haitians, it was when the Mexicans arrived. The Cubans and Haitians have taken great strides to fit in, the Mexicans not so much.

    Furthermore, you cited Chris Matthews stating that the problem can’t be fixed and then say you never thought it was a problem? I expected more consistency from you, you’re usually always on target.

  372. 372
    Rome Again says:

    longer Jaime:

    Waaaa, Rome is ignoring me.

  373. 373
    Rome Again says:

    But anyway, my main point here is that I don’t think it’s quite the big crisis that the demagogues want you to think it is.

    The demagogues haven’t told me to think one way or the other. I’m here, I see it firsthand.

  374. 374
    ppGaz says:

    you cited Chris Matthews stating that the problem can’t be fixed

    No, I said he made a crack: We can’t handle 100 thousand Americans. We’re going to “transport” ten million immigrants somewhere? Don’t think so.

    Build the great wall of TexiMexiZona? Don’t think so.

    Is the world broken because lots of Mexicans are coming over, and needing to be fixed? I don’t think so.

    I wish you all the luck in the world, Rome, but for succor in this situation, I have to turn you over to Darrell.

    Heaven help you. So to speak.

  375. 375

    [putting Jaime on ignore]

    Took you that long?

    After he used the word ‘spic’ he lost all credibility in this thread.

  376. 376
    Rome Again says:

    ppGaz, I never said that a wall should be built. I don’t know waht the solution is, perhaps enforcing the laws we do have (which I know you don’t approve of either), perhaps you like the new demographics. I could learn to live with them if there was a better mixing into the population. I’ve lived around immigrants all my life, but never did they strike me as being different than anyone else, this group is different, sorry.

    Look, I don’t want to deny anyone opportunity, but I don’t want to see people who’ve lived here for years get denied opportunity because of this influx either, that is what worries me. I want my children to grow up in the same world I did, and unfortunately, it looks like that won’t happen. There is so much changing these days, this is just more change. I don’t want all this change, I want to go back to the way it was 30-40 years ago, personally. My mother’s ancestors came here in the 1600’s, my father’s in the early 1900’s. I can’t say I don’t want immigrants here, that is not my point. I want immigrants here who fit in and contribute, as my family did.

  377. 377
    Rome Again says:

    Heaven help you. So to speak.

    The heavens always do help me, Heavens to Betsy is not just a saying. :)

  378. 378
    ppGaz says:

    The heavens always do help

    Glad to meet you!

  379. 379
    Rome Again says:

    Glad to meet you!

    Thanks ppGaz, but I felt like I met you a long time ago. LOL

    We’re almost always on the same side of issues, and I felt like we had a lot in common, unfortunately not this time.

  380. 380
    ppGaz says:

    I was only kidding about leaving you with Darrell.

    I wouldn’t do that to anybody. Even Darrell.

  381. 381
    Rome Again says:

    I was only kidding about leaving you with Darrell.

    I wouldn’t do that to anybody. Even Darrell.

    You always have such an interesting way with words.

    Thanks, I think?

  382. 382
    ppGaz says:

    Thanks, I think?

    I mean, I felt bad about making the wisecrack about leaving you with Darrell. Just being a smart aleck.

  383. 383
    jaime says:

    After he used the word ‘spic’ he lost all credibility in this thread.

    It’s funny, the word spic doesn’t bother me, a Puerto Rican, as much as it does TOS.

    Waaaa, Rome is ignoring me.

    Fabulous job of ignoring Cotton Eyed Joe.

  384. 384
    Krista says:

    Just being a smart aleck.

    You? Perish the thought…

  385. 385
    John S. says:

    John lectures on the subject of those rude Mexicans.

    ppGaz, don’t you ever get tired of looking like a schmuck? I’ll give you a million dollars for any quote of mine that even remotely proposes such a thing. I think my money is safe.

    Completetly full of shit, AFAIC. Same thing I said to you yesterday, hasn’t changed.

    Yes, you are completely full of shit. Same as you were yesterday.

    I find it amazing how your failure to comprehend what other people say makes them bad. You’re a marvel to behold.

  386. 386
    John S. says:

    If people don’t like being told they come across as paranoid cracker asses (not that they are, but they come across that way. I know John S. purposefully ignored that distinction even though he wasn’t being addressed) then quit posting stuff that makes you look like a parnoid cracker ass.

    Jaime, you’re still an idiot. The mantra of ‘people speak Spanish around paranoid looking crackers’ shall be a millstone around your neck.

  387. 387
    John S. says:

    ppGaz, I never said that a wall should be built.

    Of course you didn’t. But you see, ppGaz has the nasty little problem with reading comprehension that forces him to boil down people in an absurdium reducto type of reaction based on his primitive brain keying in on buzzwords he thinks are indicative of an entire person’s mentality.

    It’s really a fine attempt to pick up where Frist left off. Why stop at medical diagnosis via video when you can psychoanalyze via internet?

  388. 388
    Rome Again says:

    It’s really a fine attempt to pick up where Frist left off. Why stop at medical diagnosis via video when you can psychoanalyze via internet?

    Actually John, I already used that argument against Jaime when I was told I was paranoid based on a few lines of text. I believe the phrase I used was “Frist would be so proud”. Find your own, LOL.

    ppGaz and I usually have agreement in our philosophies, and I really take umbrage in your saying such things against him. He really is a good guy, we just find ourselves on different sides of this issue at present.

  389. 389
    ppGaz says:

    I find it amazing how your failure to comprehend what other people say makes them bad. You’re a marvel to behold.

    Yet, you are losing this argument with me. Not once, but about six times.

    Infuriating, isn’t it?

  390. 390
    ppGaz says:

    He really is a good guy

    Please, don’t blow my cover.

  391. 391
    ppGaz says:

    ppGaz, don’t you ever get tired of looking like a schmuck?

    Of course not. Why, do you?

  392. 392
    Krista says:

    I think that what we have here is a failure to communicate…

  393. 393
    ppGaz says:

    someone speaks Spanish in front of me – when they can also speak English – specifically to try to say something they don’t want me to hear because they think I don’t understand them is the behavior of a rude individual. When they realize I understand them, a few chuckles usually follow as if to say ‘the jig is up’.

    Still the quote of the thread. Priceless.

  394. 394
    Kirk Spencer says:

    Rome again (and John S), I am the one who wrote of a wall. It was in response to the request for a specific cure to stop (or at least radically control) illegal immigration. It is, as far as I know, the only way to do such in a practical manner. NOTE THAT a wall alone would be insufficient. Manpower is also required. You can forgo a physical wall if you increase the manpower, but whether virtual or physical you need a wall.

    And the cost of that wall is phenomenal. Huge. Monstrous. On the order of what we spend for the DoD. Add that to the budget.

    All of which is meant to state that we are not willing to pay to stop illegal immigration. And all the stopgap measures are no better than trying to stop the mississippi river with a handful of twigs.

  395. 395
    jaime says:

    The mantra of ‘people speak Spanish around paranoid looking crackers’

    What I wrote was that one COMES ACROSS LOOKING LIKE PARANOID CRACKERS when they think that Spanish immigrant talk in code around them. And that impacting their notions of immigration pretty much seals the deal.

    Comes across…repetan por favor…comes across.

    Comes across….comes across.

    Sorry I addded that spanish code talkin’. I’ll make sure to assimilate better.

  396. 396

    It’s funny, the word spic doesn’t bother me, a Puerto Rican, as much as it does TOS.

    Then I’m sorry for you.

  397. 397
    ppGaz says:

    It’s funny, the word spic doesn’t bother me, a Puerto Rican, as much as it does TOS.

    Then I’m sorry for you.blockquote>

    Sure to go down as one of the oddest, and most telling exchanges, in the history of BJ.

    BTW, “paranoid cracker ass” is the gem of this thread.

    If the paranoid cracker ass zapatos fit …..

    To coin a phrase.

  398. 398
    ppGaz says:

    Sorry, the only way to fix that is to re-post and re-blockquote it:

    It’s funny, the word spic doesn’t bother me, a Puerto Rican, as much as it does TOS.

    Then I’m sorry for you.

    Sure to go down as one of the oddest, and most telling exchanges, in the history of BJ.

    BTW, “paranoid cracker ass” is the gem of this thread.

    If the paranoid cracker ass zapatos fit …..

    To coin a phrase.

  399. 399
    John S. says:

    Yet, you are losing this argument with me. Not once, but about six times.

    Losing the argument? LOL

    My dear fellow, there is no argument to be had. You think you know me, and what I stand for and yet somehow you are completely wrong in the judgment you have formed. I don’t see that there can be any argument on this topic. I know what I meant, and I said it. You took that statement and have since conflated it into a myriad of false postulations.

    Which means that if anything, I have won the argument. And it doesn’t infuriate me. It does seem to infuriate you, that you are wrong and totally incapable of admitting it. But hey, every blog needs a resident blowhard curmudgeon.

    Still the quote of the thread. Priceless.

    And you’re still the idiot of the thread. Ironically enough, I asked my friend from Spain last night if she found anything that I said to be offensive. She laughed, and said no but asked why I would care what someone who doesn’t know me thinks about me.

    You know what? She’s right.

  400. 400
    ppGaz says:

    You think you know me

    Heavens no. Why in the world would I want to know you?

    She laughed, and said no but asked why I would care what someone who doesn’t know me thinks about me.

    Good question. Let us know when you have the answer.

  401. 401
    ppGaz says:

    It does seem to infuriate you, that you are wrong

    Har! All I do is keep posting your words, and every time I do it, you throw a tantrum. Here, let’s see if I can get you to throw another one. Your words:

    someone speaks Spanish in front of me – when they can also speak English – specifically to try to say something they don’t want me to hear because they think I don’t understand them is the behavior of a rude individual. When they realize I understand them, a few chuckles usually follow as if to say ‘the jig is up’.

    One ….. two …… three ….. four ……

  402. 402
    John S. says:

    What I wrote was that one COMES ACROSS LOOKING LIKE PARANOID CRACKERS when they think that Spanish immigrant talk in code around them.

    How exactly does one make this snap judgment about a person on sight? And what the hell are you babbling about ‘code’? A language a person doesn’t speak being overheard isn’t code, it’s just a tongue they don’t understand.

    Sorry I addded that spanish code talkin’. I’ll make sure to assimilate better.

    I see you went to the ppGaz school or hasty judgments. Since I speak Spanish, it isn’t code – or even a foreign tongue. And nowhere did I ask you to assimilate or any other such bullshit.

    If you and ppGaz think it’s perfectly polite and ok to talk shit about people in front of them, then I guess that’s your perrogative. I still think it’s rude.

  403. 403
    John S. says:

    Har! All I do is keep posting your words, and every time I do it, you throw a tantrum.

    A tantrum? You are really a silly little man, aren’t you? I am LAUGHING my ass off at you. I find it hilarious that you are obsessed with my words, especially because you haven’t a clue what they mean.

    And it’s ironic that I can say something in English in front of another English speaker and I may as well be speaking German for all your ability to comprehend.

  404. 404
    ppGaz says:

    If you and ppGaz think it’s perfectly polite and ok to talk shit about people in front of them, then I guess that’s your perrogative. I still think it’s rude.

    Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahaha!

    You should write an etiquette book, my friend. You are breaking new ground here.

  405. 405
    ppGaz says:

    A tantrum? You are really a silly little man, aren’t you? I am LAUGHING my ass off at you. I find it hilarious that you are obsessed with my words, especially because you haven’t a clue what they mean.

    Yeah, I’ll be the judge of that, John.

  406. 406
    ppGaz says:

    You are really a silly little man, aren’t you?

    You know NOTHING about me, John. I am actually quite huge.

  407. 407
    ppGaz says:

    HUGE, I tell you.

  408. 408
    John S. says:

    Good question. Let us know when you have the answer.

    I don’t think it’s so much a matter of caring what you think as feeling up for a good fight. I’m in a particularly combative mood, and I’m just not inclined to let some dipshit retiree with nothing better to do than talk shit on a blog try to pull off a hatchet job.

    Then again, getting through your thick skull is about as useful as trying to talk sense into MacBuckets or Darrell, so I guess it’s a lost cause. I reckon that your arrogance and failure to admit fault is a trait you recognize in the posters you hate so much. Personally, I think it’s a lousy trait in anyone – left or right.

  409. 409
    John S. says:

    Yeah, I’ll be the judge of that, John.

    LOL, I know. You have appointed yourself chief judge of this blog and all your judgments are final regardless of their quality.

    You know NOTHING about me, John. I am actually quite huge.

    I guess we DO have something in common, then. You know as much about me as I do about you. And neither of us gives a shit.

  410. 410
    jaime says:

    If you and ppGaz think it’s perfectly polite and ok to talk shit about people in front of them, then I guess that’s your perrogative. I still think it’s rude.

    This is an ettiquette problem brought into a discussion about immigration. We’ve got our wires switched here John S.

    Let me refresh your memories ROME WROTE:

    I would get along better with them if they would

    1. not break into spanish secret talk in front of me while I’m around (I see this a lot)
    2. stand in line like everyone else (I get the feeling they don’t know what standing in line is all about)
    3. live one family to a house like the law states (instead of two or three families).

    These people are getting away with doing things I cannot get away with. If they would “assimilate” I would have absolutely no problem with them being here.

    Excuse the shit outta me if I equate “spanish secret talk” to “code.” Excuse the shit outta me if I’m a little annoyed by the sentence “they don’t know what standing in line is all about”. Excuse the shit outta me If I don’t sit politely and quietly while a bunch of asses grouse about “those people” because “those people” are also “my people”

  411. 411
    ppGaz says:

    And neither of us gives a shit.

    If you say so, John.

  412. 412
    John S. says:

    Excuse the shit outta me if I equate “spanish secret talk” to “code.” Excuse the shit outta me if I’m a little annoyed by the sentence “they don’t know what standing in line is all about”. Excuse the shit outta me If I don’t sit politely and quietly while a bunch of asses grouse about “those people” because “those people” are also “my people”

    Sorry, but I do not condone any of the generalizations that Rome made that you take umbrage with. I SPECIFICALLY commented on your claim of:

    1.) Maybe if you didn’t come across as a paranoid cracker ass, they wouldn’t have to talk their non-American talk around you.

    2) “Those people” that burden you with their spic talk probably voted for both Bush’s. Ass.

    Your first point I’m guessing was a knee-jerk reaction to the offense you took, but I still thought it was a lousy statement to make. I also disputed the second point, but that seems entirely irrelevant now.

    Anyway, if there is a misunderstanding here then I apologize for my culpability in the matter, but I still stand by what I said, and I assure you that in no way does my original statement mean that I hate immigrants or people who speak Spanish.

  413. 413
    ppGaz says:

    But John, really, in the future, please keep this in mind:

    I am H U G E.

    And no “you’re fat” jokes, either, okay?

  414. 414
    ppGaz says:

    but I still stand by what I said

    Good man.

  415. 415
    John S. says:

    If you say so, John.

    Actually, you said so:

    Heavens no. Why in the world would I want to know you?

    Anyway, I suggest next time you think you know, it would be better to ask for clarification. I will be more than happy to provide an honest answer.

    I am H U G E.

    You are a character. And I wasn’t planning on issuing any fat jokes. I already feel I’ve descended to a level of discourse I am uncomfortable with having peppered you with a variety of other pejoratives.

  416. 416
    ppGaz says:

    I already feel I’ve descended to a level of discourse I am uncomfortable with

    Give it time.

  417. 417
    John S. says:

    Give it time.

    No way, man. I’ve seen what places like this do to people. That is why I am generally a frequent reader and an infrequent commenter.

  418. 418
    ppGaz says:

    I’ve seen what places like this do to people

    Oh dear.

    Well, all kidding aside, my advice would be to drop that attitude, and comment more frequently. It’s a pie fight, and you are a competent pie fighter.

    I say this without knowing (as you say) that much about you. Would you call yourself a right or lefty, or neither?
    I’m a hard core lefty. But even if you are a hard core righty, I’d invite you to stay around and post early and often. Seriously.

    I don’t like to be a nice guy like this, but sometimes it just has to be done. Don’t worry, you won’t see it that often.

  419. 419
    jaime says:

    Anyway, if there is a misunderstanding here then I apologize for my culpability in the matter, but I still stand by what I said, and I assure you that in no way does my original statement mean that I hate immigrants or people who speak Spanish.

    I get pretty knee-jerky sometimes. My apologies as well, not for being annoyed at stupid comments, but for being a bull in the verbal China shop and tossing retaliatory epithets around. As far as the cracker remarks, it’s like the term redneck. Many people are proud to wear that moniker.

  420. 420
    John S. says:

    I say this without knowing (as you say) that much about you. Would you call yourself a right or lefty, or neither?

    Well, I think if you catch my occasional posts you will find I’m definitely NOT a righty. I have two bumper stickers on my car: One says ‘Jesus votes Republican’ and the other ‘Repubiclans for Voldemort’ (both are satirical). So I think it’s safe to say that I am disgusted by modern Republicans. If anything, I’d have to say I’m a social democrat who definitely leans to the left. But, like many other people who like to eschew labels and preserve my individuality, the slant of my views may change depending on the subject.

    And might I add, I’m sure as hell glad I agree with you most of the time. Pie fighting with you is exhausting.

  421. 421
    John S. says:

    As far as the cracker remarks, it’s like the term redneck. Many people are proud to wear that moniker.

    True. And though I live in the ‘South’, as a Jew it’s not really a label I’m fit to wear.

    Sadly, we weren’t able to solve the immigration problem between us, but at least we have come to a mutual understanding. I think this may be because we are both liberals and have the capacity for reason (blatant swipe at conservatives =P).

  422. 422
    ppGaz says:

    And might I add, I’m sure as hell glad I agree with you most of the time. Pie fighting with you is exhausting.

    Back atcha.

    So, post more. You’re pretty good at this.

  423. 423
    jaime says:

    And though I live in the ‘South’, as a Jew it’s not really a label I’m fit to wear.

    I’m a Puerto Rican raised in N.Y., lived in Florida, went to college in Mississippi, and now live in L.A. My cousins call me a white boy, I’m the only PR in my current inner circle of friends. I have seen race from all sides but this immigration thing makes me testy. It’s as if people, seeing the polls that ‘something must be done’ about illegal immigration think it’s some sort of greenlight to say shit like Rome did. I am baffled by the vitriol of people in Iowa and Michigan and West Virginia to these immigrants and my only explanation for it seems to be a deep rooted racism or xenophobia. And that’s what I get angry about.

  424. 424
    Krista says:

    ‘Repubiclans for Voldemort’

    Pray tell, where can one buy one of these?

  425. 425
    ppGaz says:

    some sort of greenlight to say shit like Rome did. I am baffled by the vitriol of people in Iowa and Michigan and West Virginia to these immigrants

    Rome has no beef with immigrants. I think she is just speaking out of frustration.

    As for the heartlanders that you mention, remember that there are powerful forces out there with a strong interest in riling people up for their own purposes.

  426. 426
    jaime says:

    Rome has no beef with immigrants. I think she is just speaking out of frustration.

    Well, then I apologize for my knee-jerkiness.

  427. 427
    ppGaz says:

    I must, too.

    But I seldom do. I have a reputation as an obnoxious asshole to protect, dammit!

  428. 428
    John S. says:

    Pray tell, where can one buy one of these?

    Krista, you may procure one of these little gems here. I can’t tell you how many people I’ve caught chuckling in the rear-view. And shipping to Canada is free!

    On another note, I’m glad this thread ended on a peaceful note. We may not have solved the issues of the world, but clearly with open minds and a little understanding we can all get along. Let’s leave the closed-mindedness and the obtuseness to the resident conservatives that infest this blog on a regular basis.

  429. 429
    Rome Again says:

    I’m a Puerto Rican raised in N.Y., lived in Florida, went to college in Mississippi, and now live in L.A. My cousins call me a white boy, I’m the only PR in my current inner circle of friends. I have seen race from all sides but this immigration thing makes me testy. It’s as if people, seeing the polls that ‘something must be done’ about illegal immigration think it’s some sort of greenlight to say shit like Rome did. I am baffled by the vitriol of people in Iowa and Michigan and West Virginia to these immigrants and my only explanation for it seems to be a deep rooted racism or xenophobia. And that’s what I get angry about.

    Well Jaime, I’m not an Iowan, or Michiganian, or West Virginian. The population where I live is filled to the brim with immigrants, and as ppGaz said, I’m frustrated. I don’t hate anybody, nor do I want to hate anybody, okay? I’m a lefty too. My problem is that I was brought up in the mid-Atlantic, where I didn’t see any Latinos and my country is very different now. I want people to find opportunity, but not at he expense of all those who were here before. I’m scared that those who were here first are getting supplanted (how can I not think this when I see whole trades with only Latinos on their crews?)

    Also, I was brought up on manners, I do stand in line and I don’t talk about others when they do not understand me. I would never do such a thing. I have seen this behavior numerous times. Maybe it isn’t typical but it happens where I am, my husband sees it even more than I do. I don’t want the social structure I grew up with to change. Do you know how frustrating it is to stand in line in a convenience store for ten minutes only to have someone walk right up to the counter when it’s your turn? This happens quite often now, and it never happened to me before the last few years, and unfortunately, I have to say each person who has done this has been a young Latino.

    I don’t hate anyone, and I’m not trying to say I don’t want anyone to come here and find opportunity, I just don’t want everything to change, but it is changing, so yeah, I’m frustrated.

    If you grew up here under my circumstances, you might feel a bit differently than you do.

    Personally, I think it is because you think I’m attacking your race, and I’m not. Trust me, I’ve got things about my own race that would make yours shine like snow when put side by side next to mine.

    By the way, redneck doesn’t define me either.

    Truce? Or am I again saying something that will make you blow your lid?

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