Open Thread

This should amuse fans of that Samuel Jackson movie that hasn’t come out yet.

A meta-study suggests that the health benefits of alcohol may be a statistical artifact. I still maintain that teetotalers don’t actually live longer, it just feels longer.

Chat about whatever.






178 replies
  1. 1
    p.lukasiak says:

    muthafuckin’ homophones on a mothafuckin PLANE!!!!

  2. 2
    Pb says:

    This might amuse fans of that Samuel Jackson movie that hasn’t come out yet.

    Snakes. Why does it always have to be snakes?

    A meta-study suggests that the health benefits of alcohol may be a statistical artifact. I still maintain that teetotalers don’t actually live longer, it just feels longer.

    I agree, and I would like to enter Stormy into the evidence as well.

    Chat about whatever.

    This one time, at band camp…

  3. 3
    p.lukasiak says:

    oh, and since this is an open thread…’

    I’m going to bitch about Cole continuing to allow himself to be listed as a “contributing editor” at Red State — the wingnuts have totally taken over at that site. People have been banned for suggesting that Jill Carroll didn’t participate in her own kidnapping plot….

    yet Cole continues to allow his name to be associated with those people?

    No wonder you can say “The John Coles of the Right” are a bunch of fascist, bloodthirsty, racist scum and be technically correct — he’s hanging out with a bunch of fascist, bloodthirsty, racist scum over at Red State.

  4. 4
    Davebo says:

    yet Cole continues to allow his name to be associated with those people?

    I think the word your looking for is slut.

    And JC is definately that.

    So clap louder, cause he’s just about worn out his hands.

    To no avail.

  5. 5
    jaime says:

    contributing editor” at Red State

    It’s a wonder how those pudgy fingered keyboard kommandoes at Red State even managed to post coherently without mashing the buttons down with their sausages.

  6. 6

    Alcohol may not help you live longer, but what if you PRAY for alcohol?

  7. 7
    ppGaz says:

    This regular DKos feature examines the Intelligent Design movement in detail. Today’s feature is especially interesting because it looks at how ID proponents abuse science and dissemble, in order to pimp their views.

    This particular article describes man who is well educated in math and science basically betraying those disciplines in order to advance his position.

    As they say, Read.Da.Whole.Thing

  8. 8
    VidaLoca says:

    p.luk —

    Agreed, the commentary at RedState concerning Jill Carroll is shocking. Their self-immolation continues apace. Agreed, it doesn’t reflect well on John that he continues to associate himself with them. But my experience with this place is that John, while I don’t always agree with everything he writes, is a fundamentally decent guy who’s trying hard for fairness and objectivity. To call RedState “fascist, bloodthirsty, racist scum” is OK with me — but John himself isn’t any of those and I’ll leave it to him to explain (if he chooses to) why his name is up there as a contributing editor.

    Hell, they’d probably ban him after his next post there, then the issue will be moot.

  9. 9
    ppGaz says:

    But my experience with this place is that John, while I don’t always agree with everything he writes, is a fundamentally decent guy who’s trying hard for fairness and objectivity. To call RedState “fascist, bloodthirsty, racist scum” is OK with me—but John himself isn’t any of those and I’ll leave it to him to explain (if he chooses to) why his name is up there as a contributing editor.

    I agree.

  10. 10
    VidaLoca says:

    Davebo —

    Did I miss something that’s gone on here in the last couple of days?

    I think the word your looking for is slut.

    And JC is definately that.

    Proving once again that nothing is more dangerous than apostasy.

    In my opinion it’s way too early to start with the name-calling.

  11. 11
    The Other Steve says:

    People have been banned for suggesting that Jill Carroll didn’t participate in her own kidnapping plot….

    Ok, you’re done here. bye bye

    double triple citizens blam

  12. 12
    The Other Steve says:

    As they say, Read.Da.Whole.Thing

    Nope. I’m done reading dKos. After they accused everyone who was against Bush’s guest worker program of being a racist.

  13. 13
  14. 14
    searp says:

    Am I crazy? The President continues to violate the law by conducting warrantless surveillance of US persons and refuses to submit this program to judicial supervision/authorization.

    Why isn’t this the biggest news of the year? Why isn’t everyone screaming about it? The rule of law is tossed out for convenience? What kind of a precedent does this set?

    The Republican defenders of the President are really going to regret it when a Democrat uses the precedent to ignore the law. Why not nip this in the bud? Why is this a partisan issue?

  15. 15
    ppGaz says:

    I’m done reading dKos. After they accused everyone who was against Bush’s guest worker program of being a racist.

    Irony: Time of death, 11:07 am.

  16. 16
    ppGaz says:

    Am I crazy?

    We’ll need you to fill out this questionnaire ….

  17. 17
    ppGaz says:

    Services fof Irony will be held Wednesday, April 5, at the Chapel of the Eternally Witless, at 11:00 am.

  18. 18
    ppGaz says:

    Prayer-testers are Pwned

    With this and the shocking Death of Irony, I fear that we are sliding backward into Godless Communism.

  19. 19
    searp says:

    I don’t know about Godless Communism, but we sure are interested in Utopia these days. Freedom on the march, God is on the march, we get to keep our money, everyone will be well educated. Man, I can’t wait.

  20. 20
    Halffasthero says:

    I am no fan of illegal immigrants myself. I was more than understanding back when it was manageable and they were caught in the middle of a civil war in Central America, but this is now all about cheap labor and no overhead. The sad thing is that they should not be targeting the immigrants, they should be targetting the companys. I firmly believe they are collaborating in this mess (tinfoil hat time). Start up some sort of RICO act for hiring violations and start breaking those rings up. Jail a few CEO’s and that will cure a lot.

  21. 21
    Steve says:

    Nope. I’m done reading dKos. After they accused everyone who was against Bush’s guest worker program of being a racist.

    Who is “they”?

    “Support Bush or you’re a racist” is not the customary dkos platform, to be sure.

  22. 22
    Richard 23 says:

    For your saturday reading pleasure. The Little Green Footballs comment brigade has some really nasty things to say about freed journalist Jill Carroll. Check these threads out:

    Hostage Jill Carroll Freed

    Questions About Carroll’s Captivity

    Carroll Threatened Before Release?

    Priceless and charming. You may need to wipe down your screen after reading some of the angry vitriol. Not as fun as a good posting of eliminationist rhetoric but still worth a read.

    Keep in mind that this has nothing to do with the war on April Fool’s Day.

  23. 23
    Richard 23 says:

    Hmmm, my last Jill Carroll comment is in moderation pergatory. Oh well.

    Regarding illegal immigration, Dana Rohrabacher channels Marie Antionette with his proposed solution:

    “Let the prisoners pick the fruits,” Mr. [Dana] Rohrabacher [R-CA] said. “We can do it without bringing in millions of foreigners.”

    As long as we’re tossing all those drug offenders in jail, why not let them work for a dollar an hour? That’ll keep those Cobb salads nice and cheap!

    Too bad I can’t buy pseudoephedrine decongestant pills at the store without showing my driver’s license and signing a form. Heck, they even keep the baking soda and chore boy metallic scrubbing pads behind the counter at my local mini market! But that’s another story.

    All in a day’s work for Bicycle Repairman.

  24. 24
    capelza says:

    “Let the prisoners pick the fruits,” Mr. [Dana] Rohrabacher [R-CA] said. “We can do it without bringing in millions of foreigners.”

    How Chinese of him.

  25. 25
    VidaLoca says:

    Halffasthero —

    I don’t think it requires any kind of a tinfoil hat at all to think that companies are “collaborating in this mess” — this is a capitalist economy, nothing matters more than profit maximization for the capitalists, cheap labor and no overhead are integral parts of that. It would be more surprising to me if someone suggested that employers were unwilling to hire undocumented workers, if by so doing they could improve their bottom line while driving down wages for all workers.

    But to expect legislation outlawing the hiring of undocumented workers, and enforcement of same by targeting employers? That seems unrealistic — first (but by no means least) because as several people commented here in the discussion last week, that idea has never taken hold in the states along the Mexican border. It’s not hard to see the reason why: the employers have enough political clout that the legislatures have no appetite for it.

    Could be that at the federal level, that clout gets overruled, but then a different problem develops: how can you guarantee that the law gets enforced equally against all employers? Or do selective decisions have to be made — say, the employers that contribute least to “the Party” during election times suddenly have the most problems with raids? Does corruption start to become part of the cost of doing business?

  26. 26
    VidaLoca says:

    “Let the prisoners pick the fruits,” Mr. [Dana] Rohrabacher [R-CA] said. “We can do it without bringing in millions of foreigners.”

    You’d think that would be silly on the face of it: millions of acres of agricultural products, nowhere near enough prisoners. But wait! It’s really no problem: just round up all the undocumented workers and throw them in jail, we’ll have all the prisoners we need!

    Sorry for the Godwin’s law violation here, but picture ICE — or the state prison systems for that matter — contracting their prisoners out to the growers and then try to tell me how this really differs from the concentration camps in Germany.

  27. 27
    Richard 23 says:

    VidaLoca, both comments well made.

    Who contributes more to the two main political parties, corporations or illegal immigrants? Answer that and you have a good idea who is going to be targeted by legislation. Hint: not the corporations.

    In the drug war I’ve heard about reducing demand (at home) and reducing supply (over there).

    In the immigration war it seems to be primarily lip service to reduce or deport the supply. There’s a lot of noise about supply and demand but I’ll be surprised to see any legislation with or without teeth that tackles the demand for cheap illegal immigrant labor.

    As to rounding up and jailing the illegal aliens and then using them as prison labor to do the same jobs they did before with a significant reduction in pay (say, to a dollar an hour) — why that’s just brilliant. You may have a future in the Republican party!

  28. 28
    Pooh says:

    Agreed, the commentary at RedState concerning Jill Carroll is shocking. Their self-immolation continues apace. Agreed, it doesn’t reflect well on John that he continues to associate himself with them. But my experience with this place is that John, while I don’t always agree with everything he writes, is a fundamentally decent guy who’s trying hard for fairness and objectivity. To call RedState “fascist, bloodthirsty, racist scum” is OK with me—but John himself isn’t any of those and I’ll leave it to him to explain (if he chooses to) why his name is up there as a contributing editor.

    What he said. Tell me if I’m wrong, but RS’s mission statement was originally to be a home of informed conservative commentary not to be the wingiest wingnuts who ever winged.

    Something tells me John is not best pleased as to the direction they’ve taken.

    And too much Countestrike is bad for your cognitive abilities.

    blam…BLAM…

  29. 29
    VidaLoca says:

    You may have a future in the Republican party!

    But the more interesting question to me is, what’s the future of the Republican Party here? Is its festishization of wedge issues as a tool to maintain its rule finally rising up to bite it in the ass? I’d like to enter into the record the testimony of The Wall Street Journal, (that voice of Republicans and employers everywhere); their money quote:

    Those Republicans who shout “no amnesty” and want to make illegally crossing the Rio Grande a felony are well on their way to creating a generation or more of new Democratic voters.

    They’re still digging themselves out of the hole they created in California a few years ago with Proposition 187. To solidify their support today among the most reactionary elements of their base they’re willing to gamble their future across the Southwest at least, if not the county.

    With any luck, in the process of shooting themselves in the foot they’ll blow off both legs.

  30. 30
    Par R says:

    In view of a few of the venomous comments above, I went over to Red State to see what all the fuss was about. The only post on the front page on Ms. Carroll was an excerpt from the Washington Post, with a Link. Among other items in the Linked article was this:

    “This is a courageous young woman.

    “I must say, though, that I found her first interview yesterday rather odd. Carroll seemed bent on giving her captors a positive review, going on about how well they treated her, how they gave her food and let her go to the bathroom. And they never threatened to hit her. Of course, as we all saw in those chilling videos, they did threaten to kill her. And they shot her Iraqi translator to death.

    “Why make a terrorist group who put her family and friends through a terrible three-month ordeal sound like they were running a low-budget motel chain?”

    Now I’m no regular reader of Red State, but this post there hardly seems out of line.

  31. 31
    VidaLoca says:

    RS’s mission statement was originally to be a home of informed conservative commentary

    Did it ever succeed at that? I ask out of ignorance, never having seen the place until a couple of weeks ago when l’affaire Domenich blew up. They seem to be in full-on postal mode, 24/7; a visit there is like going through a shit rinse.

  32. 32
    capelza says:

    When RS first started, it was much more civil and open. Then a certain element took over, and was given the dreaded power of blam. Obvious conservatives threatened with banning for crossing the nebulous and moody boundary on any given day. I especially dislike the fact that those who have to power to ban also have free reign to hurl insults with impunity.

    Too bad, too. For a brief while it was a good place for discourse. Really it was.

    John Cole hurls insults, but he also allows those who hurl them right back to stay.

  33. 33
    Pb says:

    VidaLoca,

    Red State used to be a lot saner; after they started suppressing dissenting opinions willy-nilly, it got a lot nuttier. On the Domenech issue, they made the Freepers look downright level-headed.

  34. 34
    VidaLoca says:

    Par,

    Did you do any digging through the comments? The silliest one starts out with “I am not a psychiatrist” then immediately goes on to say, “but to me, it looks like a textbook case of Stockholm Syndrome.” Others condemn her as a collaborator (#1, #8, #10, #12, #30, #32). Several others offer more-or-less defenses. The only one I saw who called the whole discussion on its essential dishonesty (#15) was immediately threatened with being banned from the comments (#20).

    I’ll admit that at about that point I got bored with reading the whole thing but it looks like at that point it deteriorates (or maybe elevates ?) into a discussion about banning commenters.

  35. 35
    Par R says:

    Vida Loca- You’re referring to the commenters, not the posters to the sight. My God, if one read some of the drivel in the typical comment thread on this site or any of the other loony lefty sites, such as Eschaton, one would find even more insensitive and profane droolings. Get real.

  36. 36
    Steve says:

    I saw no fewer than three separate comments suggesting that Jill Carroll planned her own kidnapping and that, accordingly, she was responsible for the death of her translator. And when a couple folks were like “uh, isn’t that a little over the top”… blam!

    We have our nutters over at dkos too, but the funny thing, it’s the nutters who tend to get banned, not the people who call the nutters nuts!

  37. 37
    ppGaz says:

    John Cole hurls insults, but he also allows those who hurl them right back to stay.

    Correct. And most of the hurled insults are for effect. A few are actual outrage, but he tells you which ones those are in his own way.

    But bottom line, he takes more than he dishes out.

  38. 38
    capelza says:

    PatR…at least one of the “commentators” at RS has the power to ban and does so with unseemly haste.

  39. 39
    jaime says:

    Now I’m no regular reader of Red State, but this post there hardly seems out of line.

    Either you are intellectually dishonest, a lazy reader, or mentally retarded. I guess you missed this:

    we’re going to find out that the whole thing’s been a set up, and that this girl is a traitor and complicit in the murder of her supposed translator

    and this

    Taliban Johnny, Richard Reid, Timothy McVeigh, the British nationals who bombed their own subway system, and I’m sure you can add to this list as well.

    and this

    Oh, Carroll…the lefty plant who went over to Iraq as a CSM journalist to deliberately get kidnapped

    All you sausage fingered fritos fighters have taken the attack the media thing way too far sneering at someone’s harrowing situation from the comfort of your swivel chairs. This woman was kidnapped, possibly brainwashed, and her interpreter killed, and people whoss Iraqi experience is the fake jpg on Howard Kaloogian’s site want to smear her. Shame on all you chickenhawks.

  40. 40
    VidaLoca says:

    Par,

    You’re raising a somewhat reasonable point, but my reading of the way things go over there is that somebody posts something, others are invited to comment. Of the comments, those that are consistent with the opinions of the people who control the site remain untouched, while those that are not are banned or threatened with banning. Under such a policy the line between the commenters and the posters is seriously blurred.

  41. 41
    VidaLoca says:

    he takes more than he dishes out

    and while I’d hate make this sound like “John Cole Appreciation Day” :) it’s my impression that it’s usually someone else that starts hurling insults around, not John.

  42. 42
    jaime says:

    My apologies, sorta. Par was writing to posts, not comments, but swill like the comments I quoted are allowed to flourish over there. If people actually stood up and said something to the effect of ‘she was kidnapped for God sakes’, that is a one way ticket to bannsville.

  43. 43
    capelza says:

    RS, while I enjoyed their imlposion over the plagerist boy…they got nothing on the “Pie” wars at KOS. Now THAT was entertainment.

    For the record, I didn’t mind the ads, I got a huge kick out of Kos’ “women’s studies” crack, and I like pie.

  44. 44
    Pb says:

    capelza,

    RS, while I enjoyed their imlposion over the plagerist (sic) boy…they got nothing on the “Pie” wars at KOS. Now THAT was entertainment.

    True. Daily Kos was already a lot bigger than Red State then, and although not especially tolerant per se, still way more tolerant than Red State. But in the “pie wars”, IIRC, although quite a few commenters fled to other sites, such as Booman Tribune, there wasn’t much (if any) in the way of banning going on. Still… it was indeed way more entertaining–a veritable food fight, if you will. :)

  45. 45
    capelza says:

    Apologies for my spelling… :p

    I don’t think anyone got banned, but a lot of offended folks took their toys and left, to be sure. I was accused of being a sexist male that just didn’t understand the pain and struggle a woman goes through in this world…I was in continual “you gotta be fuckin’ kidding me” mode.

  46. 46
    capelza says:

    Or “lighten the hell up!” mode when I needed a break.

  47. 47
    Richard 23 says:

    The comment thread at Red State doesn’t hold a candle to those I linked to over on Little Green Footballs. See above.

    Saw this comment elsewhere:

    Carroll’s captors dropped her off in a Baghdad neighborhood, outside an office of the Iraqi Islamic Party. The politicians inside gave her juice, candy, water and tissues.

    Finally! The candy!!

    Yeah, but what about the flowers?

  48. 48
    VidaLoca says:

    Statement by Jill Carroll expressing graditude for her rescue and responding to some of the crap that’s been thrown around about her.

    Hopefully she won’t hold her breath waiting for apologies.

  49. 49
    CaseyL says:

    That Carroll was still not actually *free* when she made her first statement, but was in the custody of one of the religio-political parties, seems also to have escaped the Cheetocracy’s notice.

    Sliming Carroll is just the latest manifestation of the RW blogosphere’s retreat into Compleat Solipsistic Lunacy. I really wonder what they’ll do once the Reign of Bush ends, since it’s unlikely whoever gets elected in 2008 will provide that special blend of cruelty, corruption and triumphal stupidity they feed on.

  50. 50
    ppGaz says:

    Sliming Carroll is just the latest manifestation of the RW blogosphere’s retreat into Compleat Solipsistic Lunacy.

    They are revealing themselves for what they really are. Some of the stuff I’ve read the last couple days has been … jaw-droppingly mean and ignorant. Even for them, I thought at first, this is pretty bad. But now I realize, that is them.

    Fuck them all, very much, in every possible way.

  51. 51
    Par R says:

    CaseyL said:

    “That Carroll was still not actually free when she made her first statement, but was in the custody of one of the religio-political parties, seems also to have escaped the Cheetocracy’s notice.”

    That sums up rather nicely the essence of the problem. The vast bulk of the media never reported that fact, or if they did, it sure as Hell wasn’t clear. Otherwise, the WaPo and other mainstream media would have slanted their coverage differently and made all of the apologies unnecessary. And I have seen those start to appear.

  52. 52
    Par R says:

    And by the way, speaking of apologies, some on the lunatic Left need to issue apologies as well. I’m referring to those (not in this comment thread) that took issue with criticism of Ms. Carroll solely on the basis that critics of her remarks were wrong in dismissing the truthfullness of what she was saying. Now that position is ever bit as wrong as those on the other side who attacked her before all the facts were available.

  53. 53
    ppGaz says:

    Par, give it up, for crissakes.

    “Discretion is the better part of valor.” Sometimes shutting up is the smartest thing to do. When your side is rushing to shove its feet up to the knees into its mouth, down it own throat, and out its butt, maybe rushing to help them is not really that great an idea.

    Jesus. What a fucking moron.

  54. 54
    wickedpinto says:

    “it just feels longer”

    FRIGGEN APT! AND HILARIOUS!

  55. 55
    Pooh says:

    Par, it must suck to be persecuted as you are at every turn.

  56. 56
    Par R says:

    ppGaz and Poop Head, what a duo…two twits whose combined IQ’s wouldn’t come close to the speed limit on the New Jersey turnpike. Good to see that your neighbor’s kids are working the computer for you tonight. Just keep your hands off of ’em, please!

  57. 57
    ppGaz says:

    ppGaz and Poop Head

    Ah, the “So’s your old man!” strategy.

    Well played.

  58. 58
    CaseyL says:

    I’m referring to those (not in this comment thread) that took issue with criticism of Ms. Carroll solely on the basis that critics of her remarks were wrong in dismissing the truthfullness of what she was saying. Now that position is ever bit as wrong as those on the other side who attacked her before all the facts were available.

    No, it isn’t anywhere near as wrong. The attacks were monstrous, vile, and obscene. There’s no excuse or justification for them, or for the pustulent assholes who made them.

  59. 59
    Par R says:

    CaseyL, as Poop Head would put it, it is doubtful that you have any idea what you are talking about. It is an absolute certainty that you don’t know anything about anything, so please just shut the Fuck up.

  60. 60
    Steve says:

    Must be time for another sermon about the Angry Left, eh friends?

  61. 61
    Par R says:

    The time is at hand for

    ANOTHER MEMORIAL SALUTE TO STEVE

    from an old post written in his honor, and repeatedly posted at times such as this, by another blogger:

    “…mere scrolling through the comment threads here often leads to a form of ‘association’ with some of the most repugnant, short-fingered vulgarians that one could ever expect to encounter in life. Tight little left-lugnut pockets of foul-smelling gas….seething low-self-esteem headcases who shouldn’t be allowed to scrawl their thoughts on soiled paper bags in dumpsters or subway cars, let alone punch them into a web form box with a submit button nearby. It’s become increasingly difficult to even type the names of some of the malodorous subhuman cretins [this is probably intended as a reference to you, STEVE] who inhabit this nuttersphere anymore; it leaves one with an enormous desire to simply want to be done with them. Blecch.”

  62. 62
    Steve says:

    All you need to know is here. I see Par has abandoned even the pretense of honesty, though, and is now pretending that the original rant about “wingnuts” which he likes to rip off and change to “left-lugnuts” (whatever that means) was written “in my honor” and that Kevin from catch.com was “probably” referring to me.

    Truly pathetic.

  63. 63
    ppGaz says:

    The ParR’s of the bizzarosphere should take their insane non seqiturs to Scrutator, where they will blend right in.

  64. 64
    Steve says:

    …and improve the average IQ of both blogs thereby.

  65. 65
    stickler says:

    Though my clock has sprung forward, I feel by the Power of Pedantry compelled to respond to something said way, way upthread:

    Sorry for the Godwin’s law violation here, but picture ICE —or the state prison systems for that matter—contracting their prisoners out to the growers and then try to tell me how this really differs from the concentration camps in Germany.

    As it happens, the Nazis really screwed up the whole labor thing, and they actually did have to use phenomenal numbers of Ausländer to bring in the crops. Poles, Russian POWs, Italians, Belgians, etc. This wasn’t “concentration camps” per se, but it was brutal and virtually unpaid. Somebody had to make sure that German soldiers got something to eat, and it sure wasn’t Germans. There weren’t enough of them.
    Albert Speer had a brilliant idea, and then an unpleasant realization in early 1943: the Germans had taken almost two million Soviet prisoners by that point. Why not use them? And then he found out that about half had been allowed to starve or die from exposure. Whoops.

  66. 66
    searp says:

    It is absolutely fantastic that Jill Carroll got out. Now what about the others? What about all the Iraqis who actually have to live in the damn place?

    I hope I live long enough to read a historical assessment of the Bush “presidency”. I predict he will get whole chapters in survey books as a case study in lousy leadership.

  67. 67
    Richard 23 says:

    ppGaz and Poop Head, what a duo…two twits whose combined IQ’s wouldn’t come close to the speed limit on the New Jersey turnpike.

    If you’re worried about it, you could always start a petition drive to raise the speed limit….

  68. 68
    Slide says:

    anybody see the Bill Maher show on Friday where that racist piece of shit congressman from California, Dana Rohrabacher, said how much safer we all are because of our war in Iraq. Do these people live in an alternative universe? Safer? This kinda dispels that idiocy:

    Official: Iraq war led to July bombings

    Mark Townsend, crime correspondent
    Sunday April 2, 2006
    The Observer

    The first official recognition that the Iraq war motivated the four London suicide bombers has been made by the government in a major report into the 7 July attacks.

    Despite attempts by Downing Street to play down suggestions that the conflict has made Britain a target for terrorists, the Home Office inquiry into the deadliest terror attack on British soil has conceded that the bombers were inspired by UK foreign policy, principally the decision to invade Iraq.

    The government’s ‘narrative’, compiled by a senior civil servant using intelligence from the police and security services, was announced by the Home Secretary, Charles Clarke, last December following calls for a public inquiry into the attacks.

    The narrative will be published in the next few weeks, possibly alongside the findings of a critical report into the London bombings by the Commons intelligence and security committee.

    Initial drafts of the government’s account into the bombings, which have been revealed to The Observer, state that Iraq was a key ‘contributory factor’. The references to Britain’s involvement in Iraq are contained in a section examining what inspired the ‘radicalisation’ of the four British suicide bombers, Sidique Khan, Hasib Hussain, Shehzad Tanweer and Germaine Lindsay.

    The findings will prove highly embarrassing to Tony Blair, who has maintained that the decision to go to war against Iraq would make Britain safer. On the third anniversary of the conflict last month, the Prime Minister defended Britain’s involvement in Iraq, arguing that only an interventionist stance could confront terrorism.

    Don’t imagine this will convince the MacBuckets and Darrells of the world, but for most of us in the reality based world have to agree that the war in Iraq was a huge strategic blunder of monumental proportions on so many different levels. Hey, even many on the right are coming to that conclusion. William F Buckley, the father of modern consrvatism is already convinced it is an abject failure and will be Bush’s historical legacy.

    One can’t doubt that the American objective in Iraq has failed.

    .

  69. 69
    VidaLoca says:

    Stickler,

    Hey thanks for that “Power of Pedantry” note — you raise an interesting point and one I was not aware of. My reference was to the industrial center that developed around Auschwitz; there they found it more efficient to work able-bodied prisoners to near-death before gassing them, rather than gassing them outright as soon as they got off the trains.

  70. 70
    Par R says:

    Steve, you read like one of our second year Law students who thanks God daily for having just barely made it out of the first year. Personally, I suspect there was some kind of comnputer glitch that permitted this obvious error.

  71. 71
    VidaLoca says:

    searp,

    re “what about all the Iraquis who have to live in the damn place”: yes, it’s time to think about the end game.

    You’ve written some interesting posts here that suggest some insight into things military, what do you make of this:

    The US is now caught between the militias and the guerrillas and the situation will deteriorate quickly.

    Here’s a likely scenario for how this will play out: deeper entrenchment within US bases (to limit casualties) and pledges of neutrality (Rumsfeld) will prove hollow. Ongoing ethnic slaughter will force US intervention to curtail the militias. Inevitably, this will increase tensions with the militias and quickly spin out of control. Military and police units sent to confront the militias will melt down (again), due to conflicting loyalties. Several large battles with militias will drive up US casualties sharply. Supply lines to US bases from Kuwait will be cut. Protesters will march on US bases to demand a withdrawal. Oil production via the south will be cut (again), bringing Iraqi oil exports to a halt. Meanwhile, the government will continue its ineffectual debate within the green zone, as irrelevant to the reality on the ground in the country as ever. Unable to function in the mounting chaos and facing a collapse in public support for the war, the US military will be forced to withdraw in haste. It will be ugly.

  72. 72
    Par R says:

    Re the Jill Carroll dustup, Paul Mirengoff says all that needs to be said:

    “Jill Carroll has strongly disavowed the statements she made shortly after her release by terrorist captors. She now says what was obvious (except to the American left) — her captors did not treat her well. In fact, it turns out that she was confined to a small, soundproof room with frosted, opaque windows, and was “threatened many times.” Carroll also explains that her statements while in captivity that expressed sympathetic to the insurgency and criticism of the U.S. were made under duress. Specifically, the terrorists were aiming guns at her head.

    “As I said yesterday, Jill Carroll has an obvious excuse. What is the excuse of those on the American left who utter similar nonsense and who defended the substance of Carroll’s original coerced drivel?”

  73. 73
    Richard 23 says:

    “She now says what was obvious (except to the American left)—her captors did not treat her well.”

    “As I said yesterday, Jill Carroll has an obvious excuse. What is the excuse of those on the American left who utter similar nonsense and who defended the substance of Carroll’s original coerced drivel?”

    Whoever said her captors treated her well other than Jill Carroll while under duress? The “American left?” Whatever that is. I want names, so I can avoid such idiots in the future. Unless Paul whoever-he-is can back up what he says, what an odious and stupid think to say.

    Being treated well under a hostage situation means not being tortured, beaten, raped and/or killed.

    Again, provide some links so I can avoid such idiotic apologists in the future.

  74. 74
    ppGaz says:

    Okay, which one of you lame-ass spoofers is ParR?

  75. 75
    Par R says:

    Richard 23, here’s one of the referenced loony leftists that you wanted to read….but there are others out there, all with big globs of shit all over their faces.

  76. 76
    Richard 23 says:

    Par R, Powerline made a pretty weak argument “yesterday” in “Think Progress” rallies to the defense of terrorists:

    Think Progress, a project of Democratic operative John Podesta and his leftist think tank takes exception: “It is totally inappropriate to assume that [Carroll’s] description of how she was treated is motivated by anything other than a desire to tell the truth.” At one level, this statement reflects confusion. The claim isn’t that Carroll intended to lie about how specific facts with respect to her treatment. The claim isn’t even that Carroll misstated facts — e.g., that the terrorists didn’t hit her, that they let her go the bathroom, etc. The claim is that Carroll grossly (but understandably) mischaracterized her treatment by suggesting that it was good, instead of merely not barbarous in all respects.

    I’d even go so far as to say, it’s full of straw. Rallying to the defense of terrorists? Oh, just go away.

    Even if the headline and posting were an honest appraisal of what was said, Think Progress is not “the American left.”

    I took Carroll’s statement to mean, mom, dad, I’m ok. She was trying to reassure her family while still in harm’s way. She was not complimenting the benevolence and humanity of her captors.

    Think Progress was taking issue with what John Podheretz had to say, that Jill’s statement and the fact that she was wearing a hajib was somehow indicative of Stockholm Syndrome. It was taken as an attack on her mental state while still under duress.

    Paul at Powerline is trying to make a partisan issue where none should exist. Kidnappers bad, Jill good. Is that easy enough to understand?

    Thanks for the link, but I hardly think Powerline’s condemnation of the “American left” makes any sense.

  77. 77
    Brian says:

    “The John Coles of the Right” are a bunch of fascist, bloodthirsty, racist scum

    I am NOT racist.

  78. 78

    Richard23, I did a blog about Rohrbacher’s prisoner labor comment yesterday. Hypocritical, sense last fall he condemned China’s use of prison labor.

  79. 79
    ppGaz says:

    I am NOT racist.

    Brian, you forgot the exclamation points.

  80. 80
    Brian says:

    anybody see the Bill Maher show on Friday where that racist piece of shit

    everyone who was against Bush’s guest worker program of being a racist

    he’s hanging out with a bunch of….racist scum

    The Left cannot resist slapping the racist label on their detractors. When you’ve no ideas to counter with, it’s undertsandable. But the inclination, the knee-jerk manner, in which this label and other like it are tossed around is like watching a madman flail at imaginary bees.

  81. 81
    Jack Roy says:

    Hate to interrupt the Most. Fruitful. Comment thread. Ever! here (“You’re a racist!” “I am not a racist”! “You are so a racist!” “You only think I’m a racist because you’re a moron!” “O PW3D, n00b!”), but I renew my objection to the baseball silence on these comment threads.

    Baseball, bitches! Tribe v. ChiSox!

  82. 82
    ppGaz says:

    Let’s cut the crap. A good deal of the opposition to certain immigration reforms is grounded in resistance to very large increases in the Hispanic population, esepcially in the border states. Whether that qualifies as racism or not, there it is, and it’s quit real and quite palpable.

    Most of these opponents are not really concerned with “sending a signal that breaking the law is to be rewarded” or whatever claptrap meme is being floated (see: Bill Frist, as recently as ten minutes ago on CNN with Wolf Blitzer). This is bullshit code language. Nobody really gives a flying fig about the legalities of the situations of their lettuce pickers, and a Newsweek poll published today indicates that a majority of people favor a path to legal status for most illegal residents.

    Is Brian a racist? Probably not. I have no direct evidence to support a claim that he is. However ….

    Sometimes you have to choose your battles. If there is a reasonable argument that path to legal status is a good idea — and if you claim otherwise, then you have to argue that George Bush is inexplicably dead, 180 degrees wrong on the issue — then steadfast opposition to it requires something more than just a sudden and newfound respect for the “rule of law.” I don’t buy the “rule of law” objection here, because it simply is not convincing and it comes from people who have demonstrated a very selective set of positions on the subject.

    If you or anyone you know is barking about “rule of law” and “sending wrong messages” then I’d like to see you or your friends demonstrate that concern by way of example, and not words. Let me see some consistency about application of “rule of law,” particularly when it involves application of law that appears to have no real benefit to the proponent. Are you claiming economic damage? Then prove it, and prove it conclusively.

    No less a robotic defender of every silly tenet of the right than Ben Stein, the fat slob, was on tv this morning making a remarkably eloquent and inspiring defense of a legal status for all immigrants. Yes, Stein, the pompous and fatuous man who manages to make Bill Bennet look modest, stated that these immigrants are showing more respect for the American dream than a lot of Americans actually are, and we ought to treat them with respect in return.

    But anyway, my point is, if you take up the defense of a postion that has racist support, then at least have the guts to aknowledge that and spend less time defending YOUR reputation, which frankly, nobody gives a damn about, and more time explaining why I should take up a cause favored by people are clearly ARE racists.

  83. 83
    capelza says:

    Jack Roy…there is a universal constant. You bring up sports in a BJ thread and instantly the women start talking about Naveen Andrews. It’s a basic law in quantum theory. Do you really want to go THERE? :p

    Is PatR for real? Did he knock off Darrell and take his place?

  84. 84
    ppGaz says:

    Whoever is writing the character of ParR needs to hand off the job to somebody with some fresh material. The character deserves better than the second-rate stuff we’ve seen from him lately. It’s like watching Superman descend to writing parking tickets.

  85. 85
    ppGaz says:

    Revise the close of my earlier post:

    “people who clearly ARE racists.”

  86. 86
    Par R says:

    Come on, ppGaz, we know that the young one shown here does most of your thinking. And is probably a lot nicer person, as well.

    It wouldn’t hurt for you to develop a new shtick, or at least a new riff on the old one.

  87. 87
    ppGaz says:

    So the message for Brian and some others here is, lie down with dogs, you may get fleas.

    “I am NOT a racist” means “I am not a dog.”

    But …. the fleas. As a great president once almost said, you are either with us, or you are with the fleas.

  88. 88
    Richard 23 says:

    Hmmm, I smell a pattern. Minutemen Gather To Press Border Control:

    Don Goldwater, a Republican candidate for Arizona governor, said he had a message for President Bush.

    “Build us that wall _ now!” Goldwater said, referring to a measure that would add 700 miles fences along the border. He promised that if elected, he would put illegal immigrants in a tent city on the border and use their labor to build the wall. Goldwater is a nephew of the late Sen. Barry Goldwater.

    Paging Barry Goldwater: are you hearing this? How about let’s not build a modern Berlin Wall or Wall of China or Hadrain’s Wall? It won’t work. Although I’m sure someone’s bound to make a buck — I guess that’s probably the point.

  89. 89
    ppGaz says:

    Most people are nicer than I am, Par. But as luck would have it, you are not one of them. So you won’t mind if I ignore your silly pleadings.

    And really, who is writing your spoofy crap? DougJ? He’s off his game. GOP4me? My, how the mighty have fallen.

    Have you considered a job as a Wal Mart greeter? Then you’d get the positive feedback you crave.

  90. 90
    capelza says:

    Barry Goldwater has turned over in his grave so many times in the last decade that he’s become a turbine making electricity.

  91. 91
    Par R says:

    ppGaz:

    same old one-trick pony. GET A NEW SHTICK!!

  92. 92
    ppGaz says:

    When you’re right, par, you don’t need “new schtick.”

    Like George Bush, I just stay the course. Surely you can appreciate that.

  93. 93
    Par R says:

    No, ppGaz, it’s very clearly not the case that you’re right…that’s a laughable thought all by itself. I think most of your posts here demonstrate a sign of total, abject intellectual bankruptcy….or just plain ignorance.

  94. 94
    Matt says:

    This is par for course for RS though. The goal of the site anymore is to reinforce as much as possible the notion that the MSM is made up entirely of people who are America-hating terrorists.

    And, therefore, of course, nothing they say is true and you should rely on RS and Rush for your news.

    FYI, I’m (or, I should say, I was) r0cket over there.

  95. 95
    Matt says:

    Also, I think it’s completely hilarious how Timothy McVeigh is cited as an example of the “many western young people who are consumed by anti-Americanism, and anti-westernism in general.” I mean, one doesn’t have to stretch their brain much to imagine McVeigh posting on RS.

  96. 96
    ppGaz says:

    No, ppGaz, it’s very clearly not the case that you’re right…that’s a laughable thought all by itself. I think most of your posts here demonstrate a sign of total, abject intellectual bankruptcy….or just plain ignorance.

    Your posts versus mine, scored for “intellectual bankruptcy” by an independent panel of righties and lefties. This thread. Right now.

    Loser pays winner $100 and never posts here again.

    Ready?

  97. 97
    Stormy70 says:

    Jack Roy…there is a universal constant. You bring up sports in a BJ thread and instantly the women start talking about Naveen Andrews.

    Naveen? Where?
    Here.

    Spoiler from the last episode!
    “But still I did not believe it to be true. So I dug up that grave. And found that there was not a woman inside but a man. A man named Henry Gale.” – Sayid

    Greatness.

  98. 98
    Richard 23 says:

    You can watch Lost using WinAmp 24/7 commercial free here.

  99. 99
    p.lukasiak says:

    ppgaz…

    seriously, why are you lowering your standards even responding to Par?

  100. 100
    Par R says:

    As one of my foreign born gardeners would put it: “ppGaz, tebya ne ebut, ti ne podmakhivai!”

    And please send the check to the West Hampton chapter of the GGB Club.

  101. 101
    searp says:

    Vida Loca:

    I think of our troops as the thin green line. That is, they are few, but magnificent and very proficient at killing large numbers of massed enemies. However, as an occupying force, to be effective they must have the cooperation of the population. There simply are too few of them to compel the obedience of the population.

    If the day comes that, like Mogadishu, the entire population hates them and takes up guns, we will be in real danger of getting overrun in some areas. You have outlined one way to get to this scenario.

    I see many others: the Shii turn against us, we intervene ineffectively in rising sectarian war, the Iranians foment “rebellion”, etc.

    In all cases, the military danger is that we could be overrun before we can get out.

    The strategy of remaining in fortified bases strikes me as useless at present. This has always been explained as a strategy to avoid casualties. Last time I looked, avoiding casualties is not a mission. The thinking must be that it could give us some leverage if we credibly threatened to intervene on this or that side, or had an Iraqi government that allowed/encouraged us to pound jihadis if they tried to hold territory.

    This strikes me as fanciful. One we have retreated to the bunker, the public will understand that the jig is up. Murtha’s strategy of a local redeployment outside of Iraq (preferably on ships) gives us the same options, is cheaper and less likely to generate a negative political reaction.

    Fundamentally, we have lost the socio-political conflict in Iraq, and all the bad things follow from that fact. Sure, we have military options, but none of them help us get to where we want to be, essentially having a Western-oriented, unitary Iraqi client state.

    The evolution of the conflict has been very interesting. My own synopsis: we went to war because Saddam was a bad guy and he was thought to have WMD. We had well defined war goals: get rid of Saddam and the WMD. Both accomplished years ago.

    We stayed in the war for ideological reasons – freedom on the march, etc. However, the essentially utopian/ideological war goal of producing a Western-oriented, democratic, unitary Iraq remade the conflict into an open-ended, primarily political/social transformation. We suck at things like that, full stop. The military sucks at things like that, and our current government is so… you fill in the descriptor … that it was never more than a wish and a prayer. If we were serious about that, there would be a million Americans in Iraq doing everything from street patrols to building schools, and they’d be there for a generation.

    This has possibly been the biggest debacle ever for the US in foreign affairs. We have a Vietnam-like tarbaby, a group of incompetent ideologues at the helm, and a complete mess in a vital (oil) area of the world that won’t be fixed for a decade or more. The military cannot fix that, and it should not be asked to fix it.

  102. 102
    ppGaz says:

    seriously, why are you lowering your standards even responding to Par?

    Bored.

  103. 103
    VidaLoca says:

    searp,

    Thank you for your informative post.

    If it’s of interest, Djerejian is saying much the same thing as you are. Very grim.

  104. 104
    ppGaz says:

    My gardener replies to Par:

    Chingate!

    Y buenas dias, pendejo.

  105. 105
    Par R says:

    As Ron B might put it, “ppGaz, are you on anti-psychotic medication? You’re weird.”

  106. 106
    VidaLoca says:

    In other depressing news —

    Kevin Phillips has a new book out, titled “American Theocracy: The Perils and Politics of Radical Religion, Oil, and Borrowed Money in the 21st Century.” If you’re not aware of who he is, Phillips was one of the main authors of Nixon’s “Southern Strategy” that won the South for the GOP. He’s thought better of that idea since then.
    Writing in today’s Washington Post, he says:

    The United States has organized much of its military posture since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks around the protection of oil fields, pipelines and sea lanes. But U.S. preoccupation with the Middle East has another dimension. In addition to its concerns with oil and terrorism, the White House is courting end-times theologians and electorates for whom the Holy Lands are a battleground of Christian destiny. Both pursuits — oil and biblical expectations — require a dissimulation in Washington that undercuts the U.S. tradition of commitment to the role of an informed electorate.

    The political corollary — fascinating but appalling — is the recent transformation of the Republican presidential coalition. Since the election of 2000 and especially that of 2004, three pillars have become central: the oil-national security complex, with its pervasive interests; the religious right, with its doctrinal imperatives and massive electorate; and the debt-driven financial sector, which extends far beyond the old symbolism of Wall Street.

    [/snip]

    Because the United States is beginning to run out of its own oil sources, a military solution to an energy crisis is hardly lunacy. Neither Caesar nor Napoleon would have flinched. What Caesar and Napoleon did not face, but less able American presidents do, is that bungled overseas military embroilments could also boomerang economically. The United States, some $4 trillion in hock internationally, has become the world’s leading debtor, increasingly nagged by worry that some nations will sell dollars in their reserves and switch their holdings to rival currencies. Washington prints bonds and dollar-green IOUs, which European and Asian bankers accumulate until for some reason they lose patience. This is the debt Achilles’ heel, which stands alongside the oil Achilles’ heel.

  107. 107
    searp says:

    Djerejian seems to feel we are in a “turn around” situation, if we adjust our tactics and add soldiers.

    I do not believe this. We could force a government to our liking, and then stay there indefinitely to support it, but our presence would be required. Iraqis are not going to accept an American-installed client government as legitimate. This would only bottle up the inevitable explosion, not eliminate the combustible material.

    I’d vote for telling the Iraqi leadership that we will be leaving soon, and asking them what we could do to help militarily for the next xx months, and of course supply economic and diplomatic support indefinitely. I just have a hard time understanding how our interests are advanced by a continued occupation of Iraq.

    I am not terribly worried about the jihadis. I think the Iraqis will take care of them themselves. I think Iraqis have had enough ideology for now, and aren’t interested in helping foreigners of any stripe build their version of utopia.

    Nope, I’d get out, on a timetable, and look to pick up the pieces once some of the dust has cleared. We have many useful options, but to me the least useful is the one we seem to have chosen.

  108. 108
    ppGaz says:

    “ppGaz, are you on anti-psychotic medication? You’re weird.”

    Hey, step back, compadre! Talk to the gardener. I have no idea what the hell he said.

  109. 109
    searp says:

    Kevin Phillips’ trenchant analysis should be required reading for budding pundits.

    The fact that a credible summation of five years of a presidency can be made in a few sentences about military force, oil and end-of-times fundamentalism ought to scare every citizen.

    The only sop to the average joe and jane is an unaffordable tax cut? We saw this in Virginia, screwed up the state for years (Thanks, George Allen, for getting the ball rolling).

  110. 110
    ppGaz says:

    Third quarter score:

    ppGaz 137

    ParR 3

    You’re on a roll, Par! Got any more gardener jokes?

  111. 111
    VidaLoca says:

    searp,

    Yes, Djerejian seems to start from the same set of facts that you do, and proceeds to argue for a “more boots on the ground” solution. To do that (and be realistic given the fixed number of boots) he’s willing to give up the periphery to hang on to the center. What’s less clear in his analysis is what, even if we could hold onto Baghdad, we would do with it; and even he sees that the time horizon for viability of this option is limited.

  112. 112
    ppGaz says:

    Kevin Phillips’ trenchant analysis should be required reading for budding pundits.

    And everybody else, too. It’s chilling.

    The main question I have at this stage of the Bush debacle is, when the history of this time is written, will it say that we were lucky to survive these policies? Or …. that we didn’t? Because as of today, I am not convinced that these morons won’t just wreck the country completely.

  113. 113
    Sojourner says:

    Because as of today, I am not convinced that these morons won’t just wreck the country completely.

    The Dems deserve almost as much of the blame as the Repubs. It’s a sorry state of affairs when they lack the guts to support a motion to censure the worst POTUS ever. Censure, for pete’s sake. The idiot should be impeached.

    Shame on them. Anyone in the Senate who didn’t show up to the hearing so support the motion will never get my vote. Are you listening, Hillary?

  114. 114
    VidaLoca says:

    Are you listening, Hillary?

    No. With the exception of Feingold they behave like they’re not even concerned.

  115. 115
    Par R says:

    ppGaz, your insight on just about any issue is probably average for the dishonest, ethically-challenged childish babbling that passes for leftist discussion in this and other threads. You always adhere to the philosophy of the ill-informed, the intemperate and the intellectually challenged. But then, you are quite obviously a not-very-bright person, are you?

  116. 116
    searp says:

    Vida: the flaw, it seems to me, in Djerejian’s analysis is that we have already lost the politico-social conflict. The trend has not been our friend for a long time, and we no longer have any credibility with Arab Iraqis. They are going to sort this out among themselves, and we simply do not have any acceptable means to exert long-term influence.

    The Iraqis have stopped listening, so even if we can freeze the moment we cannot advance our interests.

    The time for more boots on the ground was right after the invasion. Djerejian is advocating a policy whose moment has passed.

  117. 117
    ppGaz says:

    With the exception of Feingold they behave like they’re not even concerned.

    Well, I hope I can assert without being laughed off the stage that nobody here hates GWB more than I do.

    Also, I happen to have Feingold at the top of my 2008 candidate list right now. I am really liking this guy.

    All of that said …. I think the censure thing is theater. And cleverly played theater, at that. Designed to draw the Hillaries of the Senate (and the Bidens and the Liebermans and a bunch of others) into the light of day on this issue and put them into a position of having to say they were against it before they were for it, and give their opponents …. the Feingolds … a little sumpin sumpin for the primaries of 2008. A very clever move by Russ, and he deserves every point it earns him down the road.

  118. 118
    ppGaz says:

    ppGaz, your insight on just about any issue is probably average for the dishonest, ethically-challenged childish babbling that passes for leftist discussion in this and other threads. You always adhere to the philosophy of the ill-informed, the intemperate and the intellectually challenged. But then, you are quite obviously a not-very-bright person, are you?

    But my gardener can beat your gardener.

  119. 119
    VidaLoca says:

    searp,

    yes, I agree:

    we simply do not have any acceptable means to exert long-term influence

    But to answer the question you originally posed, “what about all the Iraquis who have to live in the damn place” — our role in their lives won’t end until we realize that the ability to exert monumental mayhem is not the same as exerting influence. The former we will continue to do in spades; as for the latter, well, the war is pretty much over.

  120. 120
    Par R says:

    ppGaz, I rather doubt that your gardener (probably your wife’s old man since it appears doubtful that you could possibly earn enough to afford a real one) could beat even the oldest of mine. Your posts make it transparently obvious that you are little more than a peon, and a not very well educated one at that. You were probably one of those demonstrators marching in LA last week carrying a non American flag.

  121. 121
    Sojourner says:

    I think the censure thing is theater.

    The censure thing was whatever anyone with some balls wanted it to be. Sadly, it served as a reminder that virtually all of the Dems in the Senate are still afraid of their own shadows. Even sadder, they’re allowed to get away with it.

  122. 122
    VidaLoca says:

    I think the censure thing is theater.

    The maddening thing is that, to a large degree you’re right, it is theater. It doesn’t have to be theater, though, it could be a real weapon if the chickensh*ts would just get behind the censure strategy and go with it.

    Meanwhile “these morons” might indeed wreck the country completely and it’s not like there’s unlimited time to stop it from happening.

  123. 123
    ppGaz says:

    You were probably one of those demonstrators marching in LA last week carrying a non American flag.

    Yeah, Probably.

  124. 124
    ppGaz says:

    The censure thing was whatever anyone with some balls wanted it to be. Sadly, it served as a reminder that virtually all of the Dems in the Senate are still afraid of their own shadows. Even sadder, they’re allowed to get away with it.

    Well, no, I think you have to look at how the games are played there. Feingold is a smart member of congress, and he knows that on the Hill, everything revolves around vote counting. And everything done around the counted votes is theatrical and for a purpose. This move was designed to get certain senators to take a public position. It never had a chance of getting anywhere, and Feingold knew it. He never had the votes, either in the committee or on the floor.

    As a move of that kind, I’d say, very well played. Basically Feingold can look the Hildebeast in the eye in two years and say, you didn’t take a stand against domestic spying when it counted. And I hope he grinds her into the ground with it. Seriously.

  125. 125
    ppGaz says:

    It doesn’t have to be theater, though, it could be a real weapon if the chickensh*ts would just get behind the censure strategy and go with it.

    Well, that’s just not gonna happen, any more than the poultry in the GOP is going to distance themselves from Bush in any open way …. yet.

    Everybody is posturing furiously right now. Don’t jump to too many conclusions just yet.

  126. 126
    searp says:

    Loca: I agree with your synopsis on Iraq. It is time to get out because I don’t see any real benefit from staying at this level of commitment. We need to start working on our post-Occupation policy, the sooner the better.

    Feingold is great. He answers directly, doesn’t spin or obfuscate. He says what he thinks in a comprehensible sentence. I also agree with him. It is really funny to listen to the rest of the senate duck and weave.

    I hope the immigration battle continues right through the election. I hope Tancredo is on the news every night. Actually, W’s position on this seems to be somewhat reasonable, which surely means it will go nowhere – can’t have Dem support for legislation, bad for the country.

  127. 127
    ppGaz says:

    ParR — your spoofwriter just quit.

    Sorry dude, gotta let you go.

  128. 128
    Sojourner says:

    This move was designed to get certain senators to take a public position. It never had a chance of getting anywhere, and Feingold knew it.

    It was an opportunity to take a rather uncontroversial position (check the polls) and call Feingold’s bluff. They can posture all they want but there’s a rising tide of people in the base who want them gone. Why they provide more ammunition for that position is beyond me.

  129. 129
    Rome Again says:

    A gentle reminder to Par R:

    In case you never learned this, ad hominem attacks which totally lack any substance or points to argue leave you appearing weakened and intellectually broken.

    Have you nothing substantial to say? At least include one reason or three why you believe something, else your posts will often go into that dreaded file cabinet (you probably call it a trash bin) under the heading of “not worth reading”.

    I’m sure you believe cyber-terrorism is fun, but you are not accomplishing anything, except painting yourself as an intellectual lightweight.

  130. 130
    ppGaz says:

    They can posture all they want but there’s a rising tide of people in the base who want them gone.

    Right, can’t argue with that, myself being one of them that wants “them” gone, if you are talking about the Entrenched Weasels of Weaseldom (Biden, Clinton, McCain, et al). Aside, did you see McCain this morning on Press the Meat? My god, the weaselania reached a fever pitch. Not since Walt Disney did Mickey’s voice has there been so much rodentia dancing around on television. The last particles of respect I had for the guy (which were pretty much left over from his POW days) are gone. He’s just a bonesmoker of the first order. The guy will do ANYTHING to get to the White House. Seriously, I think he is dangerous in that regard. I mean, he will do anything.

  131. 131
    ppGaz says:

    ParR is just a spoof. Like all spoofs, he will go (s)poof soon enough.

  132. 132
    Laura says:

    Spoiler from the last episode!
    “But still I did not believe it to be true. So I dug up that grave. And found that there was not a woman inside but a man. A man named Henry Gale.” – Sayid

    Stormy, if you haven’t already, you should check out this Lost blog. It’s a must read to make sure you haven’t missed anything. Between the recaps and the comments, I always learn something new the day after every episode. Plus, the guy who writes the recaps is very entertaining. I wish I knew about the blog in season one.

  133. 133
    Rome Again says:

    He’s just a bonesmoker of the first order. The guy will do ANYTHING to get to the White House. Seriously, I think he is dangerous in that regard. I mean, he will do anything.

    I agree, the last thing we need right now is someone with ambition who just wants to make it into the Whit House. Of coures, if he wins, he’s got a whole lot of problems to solve, and I expect it will make much “hard work” for him.

    If it wasn’t for the fact that people are suffering under these goons, I might have taken the dare to vote them into office, just to get the satisfaction of watching them struggle to tread water; but alas, I have children who I worry will have no future, so schadenfreude is out of the question. I do find it mystifying though, it seems some here still think there’s much hope for America to pull out of these travesties, and personally, I’m not seeing it.

    Economic records of materialism and debt, Constitutional crises creeping up on almost a daily basis, endless war in a religious hotbed, and an administration who cares not if our cities become swimming pools (both due to hurricanes and to global warming), what is the chance someone can turn this all around again?

  134. 134
    Rome Again says:

    Yes, I said “Whit House” when I meant White House. Of course, these days, it could be called the “wit house”

  135. 135
    Sojourner says:

    It certainly will be humorous, in a depressing sort of way, to watch McCain ask how high, when the righteous right demand that he jump. So much for McCain the maverick.

  136. 136
    VidaLoca says:

    It certainly will be humorous, in a depressing sort of way, to watch McCain ask how high, when the righteous right demand that he jump.

    Ah yes, I can see it now — a bidding war breaking out among multiple contenders for the GOP nomination, for the loyalty of the increasingly small but increasingly rabid base of the party. Talk about deals being made with the devil…

  137. 137
    VidaLoca says:

    searp —

    On the topic of

    This has possibly been the biggest debacle ever for the US in foreign affairs. We have a Vietnam-like tarbaby, a group of incompetent ideologues at the helm, and a complete mess in a vital (oil) area of the world that won’t be fixed for a decade or more.

    a first draft of a history of the neocon debacle

  138. 138
    Sojourner says:

    McCain didn’t break under torture by Viet Cong but the righteous right brings him to his knees.

    How weird is that.

  139. 139
    Stormy70 says:

    Thanks, Laura. I bookmarked that blog.

  140. 140
    Par R says:

    Rome Again urges one to avoid ad hominems and asks: “Have you nothing substantial to say?”

    In a subsequent post it says, “If it wasn’t for the fact that people are suffering under these goons, I might have taken the dare to vote them into office, just to get the satisfaction of watching them struggle to tread water; but alas, I have children who I worry will have no future, so schadenfreude is out of the question.”

    How utterly vapid and devoid of reason, logic and even a scintilla of wit. And referring to ones’ opponents as “goons,” would appear to be a bit of an ad hominem approach to argument.

    I recognize that some, but by no means all, of the regulars here actually hope for US defeat in Iraq as their blind hate for all things George Bush has totally captured their imagination and, indeed, their reason for existence. It seems inconceivable to me, however, that an imploding Iraq, as suggested by commenters above, is an eventuality that we and the world can permit to happen. As a former supporter of the war put it, even if our intervention was much too little and way too late, it has “kindled in many Arab and Kurdish minds an idea of a different future.” There is a war within the war, as there almost always is when a serious struggle is under way, but justice and necessity still combine to say that the task cannot be given up.

    To paraphrase the words of a recent writer on the subject, and it may have been Leeden or Hitchens,…How can anyone, looking down the gun barrel into the stone face of Zarqawi, say that fighting him is a “distraction” from fighting al Qaeda? Better there than here. Defeat in any form is not an option.

  141. 141
    Richard 23 says:

    McCain: Falwell No Longer an ‘Agent of Intolerance’

    In 2000, Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) referred to Rev. Jerry Falwell as an “agent of intolerance.” Asked later whether he stood by his comments, McCain said, “I must not and will not retract anything that I said in that speech at Virginia Beach. It was carefully crafted, it was carefully thought out.” (Hardball, 3/1/00)

    This morning on Meet the Press — days after announcing he would speak at Falwell’s Liberty University — McCain did just that.

    Transcript:

    RUSSERT: Do you think that Jerry Falwell’s ideas are now good for the Republican Party?

    MCCAIN: I believe that the “Christian Right” has a major role to play in the Republican Party. One reason is because they’re so active and their followers are. And I believe they have a right to be a part of our party. I don’t have to agree with everything they stand for, nor do I have to agree with everything that’s on the liberal side of the Republican Party. …

    RUSSERT: Do you believe that Jerry Falwell is still an agent of intolerance?

    MCCAIN: No, I don’t. I think that Jerry Falwell can explain how his views on this program when you have him on.

    McCain: a broken man.

  142. 142
    Richard 23 says:

    Par ‘goon’ R:

    I recognize that some, but by no means all, of the regulars here actually hope for US defeat in Iraq as their blind hate for all things George Bush

    Shorter Par R:

  143. 143
    ppGaz says:

    How utterly vapid and devoid of reason, logic and even a scintilla of wit.

    Says the (s)Poof!(tm) who sends messages from his gardener.

  144. 144
    ppGaz says:

    McCain: a broken man.

    Yes, and the last weasel quote you had there came after Russert quoted Falwells’ famous “blame the gays for 911” outburst was put in front of McCain as part of the overall question.

    Absolutely amazing. I’ve seen groveling before, but this guy has taken it to a new level.

  145. 145
    Par R says:

    ppGaz -Notwithstanding the photo on your rather insipid website, you have repeatedly demonstrated that you are a poofter of notorious fame in your neighborhood.

    “Avoid ad hominems,” it said…what poor advice!

  146. 146
    ppGaz says:

    ppGaz -Notwithstanding the photo on your rather insipid website, you have repeatedly demonstrated that you are a poofter of notorious fame in your neighborhood.

    It’s a photosite. All it has is a few photos. All the good ones are of my cats and my granddaughter. What were you looking for? Investing information? Why don’t you put up an inspiring “website” and let’s see what you got?

    “Avoid ad hominems,” it said…what poor advice!

    You never got any such advice from me, (s)Poof!(tm)man. Keep those ad hominems coming!

  147. 147

    I’m watching a show on the Discovery Channel about the Tsunami in 2004. Whew!!!

    By the way, where is John Cole these days? Getting his spleen augmented?

  148. 148
    Par R says:

    ppGaz- As requested, the picture makes it demonstrably clear that what we have been dealing with is unadulterated White Trash.

  149. 149
    ppGaz says:

    ppGaz- As requested, the picture makes it demonstrably clear that what we have been dealing with is unadulterated White Trash.

    $5 to anybody who can explain what the fuck Par is talking about.

  150. 150
    The Other Steve says:

    The phrase ‘ad hominem’ has been over used.

    Generally an insult or a personal attack is just that, it is not necessarily an ‘ad hominem’. ‘Ad hominem’ implies that you actually care what the other person is aruging about, a personal attack does not.

    When I call Par R a homophonic snake on a plane, it is not because I give a shit what he’s arguing about.

  151. 151
    Par R says:

    The Other Steve is pretty good for a semi-functioning retard. However, it appears rather doubtful that he even knows what “homophonic” means. He probably didn’t get any further at the same school that ppGaz was dropped from at thirteen.

  152. 152
    ppGaz says:

    He probably didn’t get any further at the same school that ppGaz was dropped from at thirteen.

    Now appearing, ParR as Mrs. Oleson in Little House on the Prairie, ladies and gentlemen.

  153. 153
    RonB says:

    Boy, nothing better to do here than kick Par R around?

    Zzzzz…

    I don’t wanna point this out, but we can work with some of what Par is saying(when he’s not insulting people with the air of John Gielgud).

    It seems inconceivable to me, however, that an imploding Iraq, as suggested by commenters above, is an eventuality that we and the world can permit to happen.

    Well, you’re right- we can’t let it happpen and that’s why we are still there-actually, it’s the ONLY reason why we are there. I’m not sure anyone here really thinks its a good idea to just up and leave, it will be a humanitarian disaster, and an economic one. Way worse than now. Many people here just want a change of plan-but we all know in our minds that this is the only plan we have. We can’t leave. We can’t increase troop levels. We are, and you gotta admit the antiwar critics called it, in a quagmire-we are stuck where we are with no appreciable change. The only option, the only plan there is, is to hope things turn out ok by some convergence of good fortunes, or they get tired of blowing themselves up. This is a waiting game. With high odds, I might add, because Id say we are gambling another 5000 American lives for a future that doesn’t seem clear, one based on hope and luck. So Par R, you can see why in their hearts, as in mine, I’d like America to come home.

    But I know that’s asking too much right now.

  154. 154
    ppGaz says:

    I don’t wanna point this out, but we can work with some of what Par is saying(when he’s not insulting people with the air of John Gielgud).

    Was that ParR in “Arthur?”

  155. 155
    jaime says:

    I’m amazed Par R isn’t short of breath after summoning all that energy into his sausage-like fingers as he dazzles us with his mental acumen.

    All that bravado masking a gooey Bennigans-filled core of chili fries, paranoia and cowardice.

  156. 156
    RonB says:

    “Perhaps you’d like us to wash your dick for you, you little shit?”

  157. 157
    tzs says:

    Par R, can you please make some logical arguments? I just skip over everything you write because usually it is nothing but insults. And I know that sometimes you can argue logically because I have sometimes seen well-reasoned sentences. Why don’t you do it all the time? I’m not going to be convinced by someone who simply hurls epithets around–in fact, it shows he has no reasonable argument and is simply indulging in the verbal equivalent of spitting at the enemy because he has no other strategy.

  158. 158
    searp says:

    ParR: Predicting something and wanting it are two different things.

    I am very gloomy about Iraq, but others aren’t so gloomy. There are two causes for optimism that I see. The first is that our people in Iraq now appear to be very good, soldiers and civilians(diplomats, I don’t know about private security types).

    The second basis for optimism is an abiding faith that if we want something badly enough we can adjust policy and make it happen. I very much disagree with this. It is American triumphalism and an unreasoning faith in limitless capabilities that helped get us into this situation in the first place.

    The potential outcomes in Iraq have been characterized by two extremes, both unlikely. The preferred outcome, a functioning, unitary, democratic, non-confessional Iraq, may happen in the very long run but does not appear to be likely during the Bush presidency. The abhorred outcome, an Afghanistan situation circa 1997 (before the Taliban had really consolidated power) is equally unlikely, because functioning power structures are in place in Iraq, just not the ones we would like.

    A more likely scenario is a barely functional, barely acceptable gloss on the underlying power structures. That is, the “government” will be staffed by folks with strong sectarian/militia affiliations whose power actually derives from those affiliations, not the nominal “political party”. This is, of course, a recipe for continuing conflict, since power struggles cannot be solved within the nominal structure of the government.

    Our remonstrances, money, etc., will simply have no effect. We can plan elections, dip purple fingers, etc. for domestic consumption, but none of that will have any effect on the real power structures. If we attempt to suppress the militias, then everyone will start shooting at us, and we’re back to the nightmare scenario.

    We are at the limit of our useful power. An effective policy change at this point would, in my opinion, require a much larger and longer (generational) commitment, and the public simply won’t stand for it.

    Lesson: you cannot have it your way on the cheap, and may not be able to have it your way at any price. We are now re-learning the real lessons of Vietnam.

  159. 159

    Well, it’s official.

    I now work for a three-headed Dog.

  160. 160

    The Other Steve is pretty good for a semi-functioning retard. However, it appears rather doubtful that he even knows what “homophonic” means.

    Umm, figure it out… homo=one, phonic=sound… It’s not that hard.

    And I actually thought it was quite funny.

  161. 161
    Slide says:

    Worst performances on television for a presidential aspirant:

    3. John Edwards on Meet the Press discussing military matters.

    2. Ted Kennedy failing to explain why he wants to be President

    1. John McCain being exposed on Meet the Press for the flip-flopping, pandering, non-maverick performance.

    Senator Allen must have been very happy to watch John McCain implode on MTP

  162. 162
    John S. says:

    But then, you are quite obviously a not-very-bright person, are you?

    1. ‘Bright’ people wouldn’t use the hodgepodge term ‘not-very-bright’ as an adjective.

    2. ‘Bright’ people don’t try to win arguments by clumsily calling their opponents stupid.

    I think that gives us the moral of ParR‘s story.

  163. 163
    Par R says:

    John S. – If you had any facility/familiarity with English, you wouldn’t make the rather absurd comment above.

    As to the broader question raised by some in the comments above, why bother with reasoned discourse when all that one typically receives in return from such mental midgets as ppGaz, the Other Steve, and Rob B, among others, are insults and put downs. Over the past six or so weeks, these retards have demonstrated that they most likely still have to rely on their mothers to wipe their asses.

  164. 164
    docG says:

    Dear Mr. Cole:

    You have obviously lost interest in blogging. Balloon-Juice has turned into a spoofs and insults spot, just like 10,000 others. You invest little energy anymore, reducing your output to DougJ-like comments to churn the far right/far left insult fests. Take a break or hang it up.

  165. 165
    VidaLoca says:

    Par,

    As the whole Iraq fiasco circles the drain, the attempt has begun to blame the failure on the people who from the beginning have predicted the exact outcome we see developing before our eyes. This is one example of such:

    I recognize that some, but by no means all, of the regulars here actually hope for US defeat in Iraq as their blind hate for all things George Bush has totally captured their imagination and, indeed, their reason for existence.

    If you ever get around to looking for support for the charge you’re making, you may find some but you won’t find much — among those who have disagreed with the invasion of Iraq generally, and those here particularly. And keep in mind that arguing as passionately as possible that a policy will lead to disaster if implemented, is not the same as hoping the disaster will take place (though it’s convenient for the architects and proponents of the policy to avoid their responsibility by seeking to conflate the two).

    It seems inconceivable to me, however, that an imploding Iraq, as suggested by commenters above, is an eventuality that we and the world can permit to happen. As a former supporter of the war put it, even if our intervention was much too little and way too late, it has “kindled in many Arab and Kurdish minds an idea of a different future.” There is a war within the war, as there almost always is when a serious struggle is under way, but justice and necessity still combine to say that the task cannot be given up.

    It seems conceivable to me that an imploding Iraq is an evantuality that we and the world can do little to prevent.
    Here’s an argument, BTW, that that might not always have been the case — but we made it so, as botched ideology drove botched policy. But that was then, this is now: the options we face are collapsing. Furthermore, consider that the people who would have to carry out a policy of fixing the mess we’re in there are the same people who created the mess in the first place — I’ll cite the Djerijian article that searp and I were discussing in the thread above. The are not good about admitting mistakes — because that would mean taking responsibility.

    “kindled in many Arab and Kurdish minds an idea of a different future.”? Perhaps so. Evidently those minds are not much in agreement about what that future would look like though, as the militias roam about executing people.

    “the task cannot be given up”? Your whole frikking task is on life support! It’s barely functioning as a task! Show me some kind of a plan for this “task” of yours that has even a half-assed chance of success, one that will maybe, you know, work (not like all those other plans for your “task” that we’ve seen come and go) AND that has a half-assed chance of being adopted by that evil gang of clowns that you’re supporting to put it into place.

    Because if you can’t do that you should just stop, right now, before one more kid comes home in a box. “Stay the course” kind of rhetoric won’t cut it any more.

  166. 166
    Pb says:

    Par R,

    why bother with reasoned discourse when all that one typically receives in return from such mental midgets as ppGaz, the Other Steve, and Rob B, among others, are insults and put downs.

    O NOES! All they have are insults and put downs!

    Whereas you, on the other hand,

    Over the past six or so weeks, these retards have demonstrated that they most likely still have to rely on their mothers to wipe their asses.

    What a shock. Insults and put-downs.

    Now shut the fuck up, you pathetically inane hypocrite.

  167. 167

    As to the broader question raised by some in the comments above, why bother with reasoned discourse when all that one typically receives in return from such mental midgets as ppGaz, the Other Steve, and Rob B, among others, are insults and put downs.

    That’s not fair.

    If you had offered reasoned discourse, you would not have received insults and putdowns from such mental midgets as ppGaz, The Other Steve and Rob B, among others.

  168. 168
    ppGaz says:

    If you had offered reasoned discourse, you would not have received insults and putdowns from such mental midgets as ppGaz, The Other Steve and Rob B, among others.

    Hey, don’t make fun of us Little People!

    Among others.

  169. 169
    John S. says:

    John S. – If you had any facility/familiarity with English, you wouldn’t make the rather absurd comment above.

    I’m sorry ParR, what is your gripe with my use of the English language exactly?

    And by the way, I think you meant FACULTY not facility. So much for your command of the language.

  170. 170
    Par R says:

    Either word fits in the context of the sentence, John S.

    And I really do enjoy reading the pixelated translations of the brain farts produced by the trailer trash trio of ppGaz, The Other Steve, Ron B.

  171. 171

    And I really do enjoy reading the pixelated translations of the brain farts produced by the trailer trash trio of ppGaz, The Other Steve, Ron B.

    Thank you. It’s my goal to please everybody all the time.

    I’ll be here all week.

  172. 172

    This is a funny response from redstate…

    The Jane Hamshers of the Right are accusing the Jane Hamshers of the Left of being Racists.

    more at Redstate

    The truly sad thing is, while the Jane Hamshers of the Right make some points I agree with, that issues primarily involve class, not race. It is pretty apparent that they don’t give a shit about either and have no solution in their bag of trick ponys. Other than to call the Jane Hamshers of the Left a bunch of names.

    Call them racists, classist, it doesn’t matter. Redstate fits either smear in one form or another.

  173. 173
    ppGaz says:

    And I really do enjoy reading the pixelated translations of the brain farts produced by the trailer trash trio of ppGaz, The Other Steve, Ron B.

    Mission Accomplished!

  174. 174
    Pb says:

    The Other Steve,

    Great stuff. Could they be more ignorant?

    most of the racists left are of the colored persuasion

    Damn those coloreds, why do they have to be so racist!

  175. 175
    ppGaz says:

    Damn those coloreds, why do they have to be so racist!

    Proof that that’s where racism came from in the first place. The coloreds.

    If they hadn’t forced their way into the country, we would never have had any of these problems.

  176. 176
    John S. says:

    Either word fits in the context of the sentence, John S.

    I’m sorry ParR, but ‘If you had any facility with English’ doesn’t really seem to flow very well. The closest fit is clearly where facility means ‘aptitiude’ in the context you provided, but even then the syntax seems awkward to me at best.

    And since you never bothered to address the dubious claim you made regarding my grasp of English, I will ask you again on what premise you base such an allegation.

  177. 177
    Rome Again says:

    If they hadn’t forced their way into the country, we would never have had any of these problems.

    While locked up in chains as they lived in stench and disease on the ships while wondering if they would ever see their families again, don’t forget.

  178. 178
    Rome Again says:

    How utterly vapid and devoid of reason, logic and even a scintilla of wit. And referring to ones’ opponents as “goons,” would appear to be a bit of an ad hominem approach to argument.

    I recognize that some, but by no means all, of the regulars here actually hope for US defeat in Iraq as their blind hate for all things George Bush has totally captured their imagination and, indeed, their reason for existence. It seems inconceivable to me, however, that an imploding Iraq, as suggested by commenters above, is an eventuality that we and the world can permit to happen. As a former supporter of the war put it, even if our intervention was much too little and way too late, it has “kindled in many Arab and Kurdish minds an idea of a different future.” There is a war within the war, as there almost always is when a serious struggle is under way, but justice and necessity still combine to say that the task cannot be given up.

    To paraphrase the words of a recent writer on the subject, and it may have been Leeden or Hitchens,…How can anyone, looking down the gun barrel into the stone face of Zarqawi, say that fighting him is a “distraction” from fighting al Qaeda? Better there than here. Defeat in any form is not an option.

    These people you wish me to not refer to with any name-calling are ruining the lives of millions of people, and because of that, they get no respect from me. If you want to know the truth, goons was a very lame word, but I used it because I felt it was better than calling them what I really feel they are (which I shall not, it would only serve to raise my blood pressure). I find it hilarious that you can hurl insults left and right, attacking posters on BJ by name, and yet you hypocritically call me out for the word “goons”. Absolutely astounding.

    One thing though, I did get you to use a bit of reasoning, although I don’t agree with your stance.

    By the way, I don’t wish for the defeat of the war in Iraq, I wish that this war was over so civilians would stop getting killed and go back to some semblance of normalcy. Saddam Hussein may have been a bad man, but for millions of Iraqis, they had normalcy while he was their leader. Not so now. Don’t try to guess what my responses are, you may be on standing on ground, but our worlds have completely different foundations.

    By the way, Zarqawi didn’t fund the travesty that was 9/11. The man who did is still at large, why do you not care about that?

    But anyway, back to what I was saying… I guess I accomplished what I set out to do, which was to see what you actually believe instead of just read your diatribe of temper tantrums. You’re much less boring when you actually have something to discuss. Thanks.

Comments are closed.