More Katrina Hooey

Bush’s first-draft effort at excusing himself post-Katrina always seemed completely feeble:

“I don’t think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees”

We all knew that he was full of it. Hurricane experts knew, the government’s own engineers knew and most of the residents of New Orleans knew that the levees could go if they got hit with a big enough storm surge. The only people who apparently didn’t anticipate a levee failure were George Bush and his empty-suit head of homeland security, Michael Chertoff.

Now, amusingly if you’re not a victim of the catastrophic clusterf**k that was Katrina, the AP has obtained video evidence that even that wasn’t true:

WASHINGTON — In dramatic and sometimes agonizing terms, federal disaster officials warned President Bush and his homeland security chief before Hurricane Katrina struck that the storm could breach levees, put lives at risk in New Orleans’ Superdome and overwhelm rescuers, according to confidential video footage.

Bush didn’t ask a single question during the final briefing before Katrina struck on Aug. 29, but he assured soon-to-be-battered state officials: “We are fully prepared.”

Needless to say, this video came from somebody who has a beef with the president. As Bush’s star dims it’ll be interesting to see how many more of those folks are out there and what kind of material they’re sitting on.

John Amato, of course, has the video.






228 replies
  1. 1
    Pooh says:

    That video is objectively pro-terrorist as it gives aid and comfort to our enemies that our disaster response abilities sum to about fuck-all.

  2. 2
    srv says:

    When you’re a leader who is so used to failures like Iraq, it isn’t surprising that he wasn’t able to see the urgency of New Orleans. Just like his finally getting off literacy program event in Florida after the 9/11 attack, we must wait until the media panic makes it clear to his handlers that there is a problem that must be dealt with.

    Besides, it was that mayors fault anyway.

  3. 3
    Pb says:

    What’s that you say? Bush lied, people died? Video proof? Must be another one of those liberal facts…

  4. 4
    ppGaz says:

    Amazing. And these are the onionheads who want us to trust them to “stay the course” in a war that has been made into a mess for three years.

    “This war is winnable.” — Dick Cheney

    “Not by this administration.” — Howard Dean

    Dean is right.

  5. 5
    Ancient Purple says:

    Just remember, kids:

    Lying about a blowjob will always be worse than anything Bush lies about.

    Always.

  6. 6
    Richard Bottoms says:

    Bush is a lying sack of shit.

    What else is new?

  7. 7
    Zerthimon says:

    Anyone notice how good Brown comes off in this video?

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200.....rina_video

    quote:

    A top hurricane expert voiced “grave concerns” about the levees and then-
    Federal Emergency Management Agency chief Michael Brown told the president and
    Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff that he feared there weren’t enough disaster teams to help evacuees at the Superdome.

    “I’m concerned about … their ability to respond to a catastrophe within a catastrophe,” Brown told his bosses the afternoon before Katrina made landfall….

    Video footage of the Aug. 28 briefing, the final one before Katrina struck, showed an intense Brown voicing concerns from the government’s disaster operation center and imploring colleagues to do whatever was necessary to help victims.

    “We’re going to need everything that we can possibly muster, not only in this state and in the region, but the nation, to respond to this event,” Brown warned. He called the storm “a bad one, a big one” and implored federal agencies to cut through red tape to help people, bending rules if necessary.

    “Go ahead and do it,” Brown said. “I’ll figure out some way to justify it. … Just let them yell at me.” …

    Other officials expressed concerns about the large number of New Orleans residents who had not evacuated.

    “They’re not taking patients out of hospitals, taking prisoners out of prisons and they’re leaving hotels open in downtown New Orleans. So I’m very concerned about that,” Brown said.

  8. 8
    StupidityRules says:

    PsychicNews Exclusive: “Captain of the Titanic reborn as George W Bush”

  9. 9
    Sock Puppet says:

    Bush never lies. He just forgets. Is that all it takes for you people to hate? A bad memory?

    Pigs.

  10. 10
    StupidityRules says:

    Some of the chairs in the video wasn’t made before December 2005. It’s obviously a fake made by Howard Dean, Move On and Michael Brown.

  11. 11
    Sock Puppet says:

    And you know SR, that really isn’t President Bush in that video, either. It’s the late Don Knotts participating in a vicious attack on America.

    I’ll bet Jesus is roasting his skinny ass now!

  12. 12

    I can’t… I’ve been thinking up about 10 different nasty things to say about Dubya right now, about his damn lying, his damn ineptitude, his damn… rrrggg… Right now he’s off in India, I pray to Vishnu the damn bastard stays there…

  13. 13
    Rob says:

    How did this video get out?

  14. 14
    Sock Puppet says:

    Somebody from the Don Knotts Estate. Big funny joke, right?

    These people will do anything to defame us.

  15. 15
    Krista says:

    Here now, make fun of the politicans and the religious figures all you want. But Don Knotts is sacrosanct.

  16. 16
    StupidityRules says:

    Rob asked:

    How did this video get out?

    Perhaps Brown’s Levees finally were breached?

  17. 17
    Eddie says:

    But the Dems are much worse.

    Funny, not one mention on RedState…

    Wonder why…?

  18. 18

    You need a new category for stuff like this. Not “General Stupidity”, but “Criminal Stupidity”.

  19. 19
    Pixie says:

    Sounds familiar…

    “I don’t think anyone could have imagined that terrorists would use planes as weapons” -Condi

  20. 20
    Andrew says:

    Needless to say, this video came from somebody who has a beef with the president.

    Yet another political attack from the treasonous left.

  21. 21
    Paddy O'Shea says:

    Georgie seems to be good for at least one scandal a week.

    Somebody on some blog or other compared the Bush admin to the MTV series “Jackass.” This Katrina video expose’ must be this week’s episode.

  22. 22
    StupidityRules says:

    “US leader crashed by trying to ‘pedal, wave and speak at same time'”

    http://news.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=297002006

    It’s not funny anymore, just scary.

  23. 23
    CaseyL says:

    Funny, not one mention on RedState…Wonder why…?

    Because if you ignore it, it isn’t there. It’s how the whole “we make our own reality” shindig works: that which is not acknowledged does not exist.

  24. 24
    Andrew says:

    Ok, seriously, let me be the first to propose that we bring back Michael Brown, formally apologize for calling him incompetent, and give him a real Medal of Freedom. Because he was so much more on top of things than anyone else in the entire adminstration.

  25. 25
    jaime says:

    Georgie seems to be good for at least one scandal a week.

    It’s like everything Bush ever surpressed, lied about, finagled, and botched all coming to the surface at the same time.

  26. 26
    Kimmitt says:

    This is all irrelevant to the fact that Michael Moore is fact and Howard Dean lost his voice after the Iowa primaries.

  27. 27
    Pooh says:

    Andrew, the fact that that isn’t a instantly laughable assertion says plenty. (And the fact that Brownie handed Gasbag Norm Coleman his ass at the hearings says almost as much.)

  28. 28
    Slide says:

    Is there ANYTHING that this administration hasn’t lied about? ANYTHING?

  29. 29
    Steve says:

    Am I a bad person if my first reaction was to wonder what talking point they will come up with to brush this one off? Or perhaps it will be another generic “the Dems will overplay their hand” situation.

  30. 30
    stickler says:

    Is there ANYTHING that this administration hasn’t lied about? ANYTHING?

    If George Bush tells you the sun rises in the East, I’d advise you to open the window tomorrow morning and look to make sure. “Trust, but verify.”

    Their lying is pathological. They do it even when it’ll hurt them and they know it. They’ll still lie. And then lie about having lied.

  31. 31
    SeesThroughIt says:

    Ok, seriously, let me be the first to propose that we bring back Michael Brown, formally apologize for calling him incompetent, and give him a real Medal of Freedom. Because he was so much more on top of things than anyone else in the entire adminstration.

    He definitely was more on top of things than anyone else in the administration. I mean, some things he did he deserves to get roasted for, but he was clearly much more on the ball than Bush or that dickhead Chertoff ever were.

  32. 32
    SeesThroughIt says:

    Am I a bad person if my first reaction was to wonder what talking point they will come up with to brush this one off?

    I’m quite curious about this as well. They’re gonna dodge it as best they can, and they can count on the more appallingly sycophantic elements of the onanosphere to defend them to the utmost, but I’m curious how it’s going to manifest. I’m guessing it’ll have something to do with pointing to Bush’s speech where he said he takes responsibility for the Federal failures as proof that he has shouldered his part of the blame, followed by blaming everything on Ray Nagin.

  33. 33
    Gray says:

    Too sad that Bush didn’t say the ‘levee sentence’ under oath in a post Katrina hearing…

  34. 34
    ppGaz says:

    According to AP and MSNBC, the video was released to the press on August 28. Nobody paid any attention to it, until now.

    It was released BEFORE the famous “nobody could have anticipated the levees ….” gaffe.

  35. 35
    Digital Amish says:

    You need a new category for stuff like this. Not “General Stupidity”, but “Criminal Stupidity”.

    How about “Impeachable Ineptitude”. Dear God, if only.

  36. 36
    M.A. says:

    I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: the scariest thing about this administration is that they have completely internalized the “liberal media” myth, to the point that they think that all they need to do to get popular again is to “cut through the MSM filter” and explain how great they’re doing. Bush literally believed that if he made speeches about how we’re winning in Iraq, his poll numbers would rebound. He thought confirming Justice Alito would get him in good with the people when nobody cares about judicial appointments outside of the ideological media. He thought he could release a report explaining that he did great during Katrina, and everybody would believe him. He literally, truly thinks that all of America is represented by Brit Hume, Powerline and the Wall Street Journal editorial board.

    And that’s what’s scary: real Presidents respond to massive unpopularity by doing something different that will make people like them. Or fire some people and bring in competent folks. Bush’s response is to do exactly what he’s been doing all along, keep exactly the same fuck-ups on his staff, and blame the MSM for his unpopularity. We are doomed.

  37. 37

    He definitely was more on top of things than anyone else in the administration. I mean, some things he did he deserves to get roasted for, but he was clearly much more on the ball than Bush or that dickhead Chertoff ever were.

    Sadly, I think that this sums it up perfectly.

    They tried their best. And this is what happened.

  38. 38
    J. Michael Neal says:

    Am I a bad person if my first reaction was to wonder what talking point they will come up with to brush this one off? Or perhaps it will be another generic “the Dems will overplay their hand” situation.

    Actually, it’s pretty obvious. This video was mentioned back when it was released. People commented on it, and it was pointed out that Bush didn’t technically lie. He said no one anticipated a breach in the levees. What he’s warned about is that the levees might be topped. Now, there were plenty of people worried about the levees being breached, but we don’t have video of anyone telling the President that.

  39. 39
    ppGaz says:

    Bush didn’t technically lie.

    Yes, that’s the “No controlling legal authority” defense.

    Very impressive, great leadership.

  40. 40
    stickler says:

    We are doomed.

    Well, yes, actually, we are.

    On the eve of World War I, after a series of appalling gaffes, Germans began to realize that Kaiser Wilhelm II was incompetent, erratic, and unstable. And it began to dawn on them that he headed a system with a very powerful executive and essentially no civilian control over the military. Then Austria’s Archduke was assassinated, and Europe slid toward war.

    Historians call the feeling that settled over the political elite of Germany in the summer of 1914, “sphincter-tightening.”

    Any similar feeling you may be experiencing is, of course, completely coincidental and in no way related. Feel free to resume your normally-scheduled shopping.

  41. 41
    Ancient Purple says:

    Oy.

    Looks like we have the cover going for Bush: It’s all Chertoff’s fault.

    I just watched the first 10 minutes of “Scarborough Country” and Joe already was beating the drum that the problem is Homeland Security and Chertoff, but not Bush because he is only responsible for the information he is given.

    Sadly, the tapes show Bush did know the information, especially about the levees when briefed by Max Mayfield of the Hurricane Center. So, he either was a liar or incompetent when Bush said that no could anticipate the breach of the levees.

    And, on CNN, it is being reported that Homeland Security’s refutation of the AP story is… (wait for it)…

    … “the local governments didn’t do their job!”

    Too bad they forgot to blame Clinton, too.

  42. 42
    Steve says:

    This video was mentioned back when it was released. People commented on it, and it was pointed out that Bush didn’t technically lie. He said no one anticipated a breach in the levees. What he’s warned about is that the levees might be topped. Now, there were plenty of people worried about the levees being breached, but we don’t have video of anyone telling the President that.

    I haven’t watched the video. Is the WaPo lying?

    In dramatic and sometimes agonizing terms, federal disaster officials warned President Bush and his homeland security chief before Hurricane Katrina struck that the storm could breach levees

  43. 43
    Ancient Purple says:

    What he’s warned about is that the levees might be topped. Now, there were plenty of people worried about the levees being breached, but we don’t have video of anyone telling the President that.

    Why are you playing the semantics game?

    The conference call that Bush was on clearly indicated that Brown and the FEMA officials said Katrina was “the big one.” Bush then says that the federal government is fully prepared to help out. Max Mayfield said the problem would be 1) the storm surge and the massive flooding caused from it and 2) the flooding from the levees being “topped.”

    Bush wants to rely on the fact that no one used the word “breached” as his cover? That is a joke.

    Or are you suggesting that Bush would have gotten a pass if the levees would have remained intact, but the flooding would have been only, say, 25 feet instead of 30 feet?

  44. 44
    Lis Riba says:

    Am I a bad person if my first reaction was to wonder what talking point they will come up with to brush this one off?

    According to Firedoglake,

    Hoping to counteract the damage of the story, the White House leaked Newsweek transcripts from daily noon FEMA conference calls during and after Katrina to show how engaged and concerned Dubya was. Trouble is, these are transcripts that they had initially refused to provide to congressional investigators

    Demonstrating once again that “national security” is meaningless to this administration — an excuse for not complying with Congress, and something to be ignored when they have to cover their asses…

  45. 45
    Richard 23 says:

    B-b-b-but, the busses….

  46. 46
    searp says:

    It is time to wonder if there is a level of public mendacity that really does require impeachment. How can the citizenry have any confidence in the government if all we receive is a stream of lies and evasions from the President? Has he ever been honest about a single important event in his presidency?

  47. 47

    What’s interesting is that the Bush Whitehouse expends far more time and effort trying to discredit whoever released this video….

    Than they did trying to help people caught in the wake of Katrina.

    Just interesting how when they really do want to do something, they are able to muster together and make it happen.

  48. 48
    J. Michael Neal says:

    Why are you playing the semantics game?

    Sigh. I’m not. I’m just telling you what happened. This video was discussed back in September. There was absolutely no revelation today. All that happened is that we actually saw a video that was talked about in the media. We knew all of this.

    The Bush administration made exactly the argument that I said they did. I figured my previous post would have indicated that I don’t have a lot of use for the “technically true” defense, but I guess not. Bush lied by misdirection, which really is as much of a lie as a lie of commission, but it has technical outs.

    I haven’t watched the video. Is the WaPo lying?

    Again, it depends upon what you think about a statement that is technically true. I’ve watched the video, and all I heard was them discussing the water “topping” the levies. No one says anything about a breach. Maybe there’s more video that isn’t in that clip, but that’s what’s there.

  49. 49
    Vladi G says:

    I can vouch for JMN. He’s not defending Bush, or making that argument. He’s just reiterating what the wingnuts were saying when this came out the first time, that breeching and topping are not the same thing. It’s a stupid fucking argument, but that’s what they’ll say again.

  50. 50

    New Video Undermines Bush Assertions About Pre-Katrina (UPDATED)

    Yet another credibility problem for President George W. Bush — a potentially big one on what the government knew and what he was told before Hurricane Katrina hits:

  51. 51

    Purple, let us not forget those 200-odd visits by male prostitute Jeff Gannon to the White House. So Bush may also have the opportunity to lie about a blow job.

  52. 52
    Ancient Purple says:

    Sigh. I’m not. I’m just telling you what happened.

    Fair enough, JMN. My apologies for reacting so harshly.

  53. 53

    Anyone notice how good Brown comes off in this video?

    He certainly was a lot more on the ball during the run-up than GWB or DHS itself; but once the storm really hit the fan, he was pretty quickly out of his depth. If he’d had competent people above and around him to help move information and orders up and down the chain more quickly, he might have been able to keep up; but as soon as things started to go seriously wrong, he was useless.

    An experienced FEMA head would have known how to handle things when the play book becomes obsolete (“no battle plan ever survives first contact with the enemy”), but Brownie had no clue, and you can tell by some of his reactions as events unfolded. Remember those e-mails of his? Some of them really read like a guy who has just suffered a Divide by Zero Error.

    Aside from the fact that he shares complicity in the deaths of hundreds of people, I’d almost feel a little sorry for him.

  54. 54
    Pb says:

    What is worse, and fairly obvious, is that after the levees were topped, that could then cause or contribute to their subsequently being breached.

    Q: Why did the canal walls break?

    The U. S. Army Corps of Engineers says the system simply got more water than it was designed to withstand. Standing on the street, you look up to the 17th Street Canal. It has a small earthen base, with a tall concrete and steel floodwall on top that holds back the water. The Army Corps says the breach apparently occurred when water levels in the lake rose after the storm, causing water in the canals to flow over the top of the floodwall. The water likely eroded the foundation under the wall.
    npr

    Got that? Topped, and then as a result, breached, due to erosion of the foundation under the wall. Anyone who has ever built a sand castle could have anticipated the breach of the levees, given that they could be topped. Maybe Bush (and everyone who briefed him) never went to the beach as a child?

  55. 55
    AkaDad says:

    They had all kinds of warnings

    Two days before Katrina hit FEMA predicted that Hurricane Katrina could be worse than Hurricane Pam. [MSNBC 1/24/06]

    Hurricane Pam? Responding to Bush’s comments on Meet the Press, Dr. Ivor Van Heerden of the LSU Hurricane Center “I didn’t buy that because, you know, we had discussed on numerous occasions that a worst-case scenario would be if we had one of these major hurricanes and then we lost the levee systems.” A White House advisor sat in on the “Hurricane Pam Exercise,” a computer simulation of the possible effects of a Category 3 hurricane on New Orleans. The exercise found that “…a storm like Hurricane Pam would: cause flooding that would leave 300,000 people trapped in New Orleans, many of whom would not have private transportation for evacuation.” [Meet the Press, 9/11/05]

  56. 56
    Eddie says:

    Still no comments on RedState….

    Unfreakingbelieveable….

    I’m waiting for Streiff, Thomas, Leon, Adam and the rest of the kool-aid drinkers to justify this. But knowing what cowards they are, they’ll just ignore it.

  57. 57
    Andrei says:

    John Cole:

    In closing, I am sure there have been mistakes. I am sure there have been breakdowns in communication, breakdowns in planning, a lack of foresight in some cases, a lack of creative problem-solving in others, and many other issues that need to be addressed in the future. However, I am also aware that there is a lot of crap out there, a great deal of which is being willfully hoisted on a public that doesn’t know any better.

    Emphasis added.

    A lot of crap out there? Oh, much too easy to snark. Hey Cole, like I’ve said before… you’re the one who voted for Bush. Twice. (Yes, I know Tim wrote this, but I assume John still reads his own website.)

    Looking back on a lot of what John wrote on this subject and many other subjects reveals basically surface level issues that ultimately are great fodder for those with attention spans of 5 minutes. It’s why I’ve replaced Cole’s BJ with the new Glenn Greenwald blog who is turning out to be the best thing to ever hit the blogosphere. Well written and sourced articles that deserve thought and attention. Although I return to BJ every now and then wondering when I’ll get to read Tim’s blog without all the GOP trollbait and PJ Media ads everywhere.

    And yes, I’ll be sure to make sure the door hits me on the ass on the way out. See you on the other side.

  58. 58
    Perry Como says:

    I’m waiting for Streiff, Thomas, Leon, Adam and the rest of the kool-aid drinkers to justify this. But knowing what cowards they are, they’ll just ignore it.

    The talking points haven’t been handed down yet. Expect alot of word play and nuance.

  59. 59
    PotVsKtl says:

    In an apparent effort to deflect criticism from the Bush administration, Homeland Security officials highlighted in yellow parts of the transcript that showed any weakness by local officials.

    CNN

  60. 60
    stickler says:

    The talking points haven’t been handed down yet. Expect alot of word play and nuance.

    Clearly Mr. Como hasn’t been to RedState much. There won’t be anything at all until the pro-Government narrative has settled. We’ll probably have to wait until Saturday, maybe Monday, before an erudite pile of steaming PR gets dumped on the Redstate frontpage, explaining how everything is A-OK and we have actually always been at war with Eastasia.

    Just wait.

  61. 61
    Slide says:

    (Yes, I know Tim wrote this, but I assume John still reads his own website.)

    One thing you’ll notice, the worse the news is for Bush the less we see Cole posting. Its hard being an apologist these days. Exhausting I would imagine. Haven’t seen much of Darrell either have we? Or Stormy? Or the ever entertaining Al Maviva? Nope, the only true blue apologist that is not hiding is MacBuckets. So, my hats off to you bucket boy, you are loyal if nothing else. The fact that you’ve become a human pinata has not deterred you.

    Oh, and Andrei I totally agree with you on Glen Greenwald. I have just recently started reading him and I’m addicted. I have found that he, with his great writing, articulates what I feel better than any other blogger out there.

  62. 62
    TBone says:

    If everyone absolutely/positively knew the levees would break, then why didn’t Mayor Willy Wonka evacuate all his oompa-loompa constituents before the hurricane hit? After the hurricane hit, why didn’t the Mayor use his school busses to evacuate them? If everyone knew the levees were going to break, why didn’t they spend some of that Louisiana tax money on the friggin levees before the storm hit? I know because it was Bush’s fault. Why didn’t I think of that before. We all know Bush is responsible and at fault for everything that goes wrong, including natural disasters. Hell, the Federal government is responsible to do everything for us; including wipe our asses. How stupid of me.

    I say Bush was responsible for Katrina too. Everyone knows hurricanes are going to hit Louisiana each year, so Bush should have just sent Mayor Count-Chocula at least 10 billion dollars at the beginning of the year just in case. I can’t believe how awful Bush is for not doing that anyway. What a lying bastard. We all know Bush hates blacks. What a racist. He hates all people, except rich people. Raise up all you proles. Viva Che! Viva Karl Marx!

    Bush lied, people died. The chicken’s fried, with beans and rice on the side. No blood for oil. Okra and crawdad boil. Let’s come up with another snappy slogan we can all chant as we are blaming Bush for ALL the world’s ills, and completely ignoring everyone elses responsibility and culpability. Nah, fuck it, we don’t care about the truth anyway…it’s easier and more fun to bash G.W.

  63. 63
    TBone says:

    Is the WaPo lying?

    Of course not. The press never lies or prints biased inaccurate material. Keep reading and believing. As long as it’s bashing Bush, it’s got to be true.

    Is there ANYTHING that this administration hasn’t lied about? ANYTHING?

    No, of course not. Everything that comes out of this administration is a lie. Everything. They wanted the people of Louisiana to die!! They knew that lots of blacks lived in New Orleans, so they planned to ignore them so they could start their secretly planned genocide. They not only hate blacks; the hate poor people, the environment, the elderly, Louisiana, saving people (unless they are rich), and freedom too. They want to take away your rights and spy on you while you watch tivo, with the secret plan to put you all in concentration camps where they will torture and sodomize you. You know those evil nazi stormtrooper Republicans…they can’t be trusted. If they didn’t do it because they are inherently evil, they did it because they are totally inept and stupid. Everyone knows that as soon as Bush stole the election (twice) that he purposely fired everyone and hired stupid people to work in their places. It doesn’t matter that they were successful businessmen prior to taking their posts, because you don’t have to be savvy to be rich. Rich people are evil anyway. The only good thing that comes out of evil corporations is the money we can divert to those poor folks in the Choco-city.

    Our only salvation will be when those trustworthy Democrats take over the administration…then for sure you will be saved. I’m sure the Choco-city mayor would be a great President, because we know he handled his business with complete competence. And everyone knows Democrats never lie. They will stop global warming, save the whales, stop terrorism, AND give out free passes to Disney World to all the good girls and boys. Hooray!! Two legs bad, four legs good. Baaaaah.

    Some of you guys are so indoctrinated, it’s scary. I bet your ideological masters are very happy they have you mindless zombies out there to help them grab power. Weep and gnash your teeth. Attack, attack!! You brave Don Quixotes.

  64. 64
    Slide says:

    Lots of strawman arguments TBone but when you talk about people being indoctrinated you seem to take the cake. If you are comfortable with the competency and honesty of this administration good for you. I assume then Bush is the standard for the right wing on how a leader should behave. Please, please keep defending this man as his polls drop into the low 30’s. Let America see with clairty that YOU and your right wing robots APPROVE of the job the President is doing.

    oh…. and nobody is saying Mayor Nagin didnt fuck up. but 99% of Americans are not effected by the competency of a mayor from NO. We ARE effected by the competency of the Commander in chief.

    oh… and no reasonable person says bush wanted black people to die

    oh… and no one is suggesting that bush is evil. Just completely incompetent, dishonest, unintelligent, uncurious, lazy and arrogant. some might suggest that that combination of characteristics might make one evil by default, but not me.

    Oh… and no one is saying being rich means you are evil

    oh…and no one is saying Democrats haven’t been known to lie

    oh.. .and no one is saying that there aren’t Democrats that are incompetent. (please read a left wing blog once in a while and see how us “lefties” talk about Democratic politicians. Trust me its not a love fest.

    ok… I can go on and on about your silly post but I’ll leave it at that.

  65. 65
    rwalllis says:

    only read some of the post, but it seem that the fact that Bush did call Gov. Blanco on Sat. night and asked her to evacuate NO it was not until Sun that Nagyn called for a manditory evacuation (and did so on to please the gov and the pres. ) now the blunders that happened we because the local officials did not follow the plan and they failed do to their job. the officials in charge on the local level were running around screaming “do something help do someting bring in the calvary” when they were the ones who should have been doing something ( okay they were doing something, all of it wrong) you all sound as if Bush could have waved a magic wand and made the hurricane go away, what fools you are, you have no logic nor reason only to scream that Bush is bad and only show how utterly without logic you are. Bush could not have prevented the breach but if Nagyn had of followed proceedure and evaculated the city like he should have there would be less peaople dead, but the city would still be under water.

  66. 66
    Jorge says:

    Hey, by the Bush standard of technical truth, Clinton never had sexual relations with Monica Lewinski.

  67. 67
    DougJ says:

    TBone, I suspect that that video tape is a fake, the same way the CBS memos were. Have the guys at Powerline looked into this yet?

  68. 68
    moflicky says:

    read this story which tells us a lot of things you didn’t read in the wapo and ap versions of the story.

    See if it describes the same issues in the same tone about bush’s detatchment over katrina, before you all knee jerk your legs out of their sockets.

    the times-pic should be your only source of katrina news. They’ve been amazingly accurate, even during the crisis when all those false stories about murder, rape and mayhem started coming out of the superdome.

    it must be because they hire reporters at the times-pic, not shills.

  69. 69
    Vlad says:

    From that article in the Scotsman: “At the time Bush laughed off the incident, saying he should start ‘acting his age’.”

    That’s a nice microcosm of his presidency, isn’t it?

  70. 70
    tzs says:

    Oh, DougJ, have you thrown the match on the nitroglycerin now….

    Pass the popcorn.

  71. 71
    Lee says:

    No talking points on this yet?

    Will the only reply by the Administration be pointing out the failures at the state/local level?

    Personally I think that will be the only reply, the Administration will point out that others failed as well.

    Granted we have posters here doing the BushBot Boogie (dancing around with their fingers in their ears repeating the same banal phrases about the Democrats and our glorious leader) but nothing of substance yet?

  72. 72
    moflicky says:

    No talking points on this yet?

    you guys are never satisfied are you?

    if they remain quiet, they’re sandbagging. If they defend themselves, they’re spouting Rove initiated talking points.

    the only thing that will sate you is if they shit all over themselves, begging forgiveness for not including howard dean and george soros in all administration meetings.

  73. 73
    Lee says:

    I’m fine with them actually defending themselves. But that is not done my pointing out the failures of others.

    Realistically at this point the administration is only good for its comedic value.

  74. 74
    ppGaz says:

    the only thing that will sate you is if they shit all over themselves

    Well, that would be an improvement. For five years, they’ve beens shitting all over us.

  75. 75
    Lee says:

    Well, that would be an improvement. For five years, they’ve beens shitting all over us.

    Well played!

    /golf clap

  76. 76
    Ancient Purple says:

    Bush could not have prevented the breach but if Nagyn had of followed proceedure and evaculated the city like he should have there would be less peaople dead, but the city would still be under water.

    You are probably right.

    Now, please tell me how that mitigates the fact that Bush was lying through his teeth when he said, “No one could have anticipated the levees being breached?”

    If you standard is that you can lie if someone else is equally culpable, then I have my salvo ready for my next staff meeting at work.

  77. 77
    Jim Allen says:

    The sad part is, there are still bloggers who think that no matter how bad Bush is, Gore and Kerry would have been worse.

    However, none of them can explain how.

  78. 78
    Jim Allen says:

    the only thing that will sate you is if they shit all over themselves, begging forgiveness for not including howard dean and george soros in all administration meetings

    Well, I don’t know if that’s the only thing, but it would be a start.

  79. 79
    Richard 23 says:

    The busses. State and local. State and local.

  80. 80
    Jim Allen says:

    They wanted the people of Louisiana to die!! They knew that lots of blacks lived in New Orleans, so they planned to ignore them so they could start their secretly planned genocide. They not only hate blacks; the hate poor people, the environment, the elderly, Louisiana, saving people (unless they are rich), and freedom too. They want to take away your rights and spy on you while you watch tivo, with the secret plan to put you all in concentration camps where they will torture and sodomize you.

    Hyperbole, of course — no one really believes that this is how the administration actually thinks. I just wish this administration wouldn’t act like this is the way they think.

  81. 81
    Lee says:

    …Gore and Kerry would have been worse.

    I think the best thing to happen to the Democrats was that Bush was re-elected. Could you imagine how the Republicans would be howling about Kerry dropping the ball in Iraq and that X would never have happened if St. Bush was at the helm.

  82. 82
    JKC says:

    Y’all need to remember just one thing in the future:

    When anyone in the Bush League says “I don’t think anybody anticipated…” it means that they knew it could happen, but were unable to prevent it.

    The phrase must have come from Karen Hughes big book of cliche replies to the press.

  83. 83
    neil says:

    Yes, there are talking points. Shorter version: Leaks are the real story! Nothing new here!

  84. 84
    ET says:

    moflicky – the TP really did step up to the plate with this. Sometimes they are not thought too fondly of…. They have some great T-shirts for sale….

    “We publish come hell and high water”

  85. 85
    The Other Steve says:

    I think the best thing to happen to the Democrats was that Bush was re-elected. Could you imagine how the Republicans would be howling about Kerry dropping the ball in Iraq and that X would never have happened if St. Bush was at the helm.

    In many ways, I agree. Although Kerry would never have been so incompetent, and some of this shit would never have happened.

    Like selling nuclear fuel to India? What the fuck?

  86. 86
    Sam Hutcheson says:

    Some of you guys are so indoctrinated, it’s scary. I bet your ideological masters are very happy they have you mindless zombies out there to help them grab power. Weep and gnash your teeth. Attack, attack!! You brave Don Quixotes.

    Mmmmm, the sweet taste of irony.

  87. 87
    LITBMueller says:

    The half-assed Rovian responses to the video we’ve heard so far, and my snarky responses to Rove:

    1) The release of the transcripts from the day after the video.

    — Day late and a dollar short, buddy. No good getting concerned about airplanes striking the WTC on 9/12.

    2) Bush said “breached,” the video talked about “topping.”

    — It’s the water, stupid. Both breaching and topping mean that water is going where you don’t want it to – into places where people frickin’ live.

    3) But, Mayor Nagin fucked up, too. And, Blanco!!! And…the busses!!!!

    — Yeah, but they don’t control the Feds, don’t have their fingers on the nuclear button, and haven’t started two wars in the Middle East.

    OK, Rove, give me some more! I’m ready for ya, and the wussies at RedState are still waiting for their talking points memo!!!

  88. 88
    Steve says:

    The only defense of Bush I’ve heard so far is that other people screwed up too. That’s so far from a real defense that it’s not funny. What it really is is just an attack on the character of Bush’s accusers – “see, you refuse to blame anyone else, which proves you’re just a Bush-hater!”

    When you ignore the character assault, it sure seems to me like you’re left with the fact that Bush lied about the levees, and that he yukked it up with John McCain and stood around playing guitar when he knew full well that a serious natural disaster was ongoing. It’s no wonder the Bushbots don’t even try to defend any of that.

  89. 89
    Al Maviva says:

    And the currrent track and the forecast we have now suggests there will be minimal flooding in the city of New Orleans itself, but we’re — we’ve always said that the storm surge model is only accurate within 20 percent.

    Please read the primary sources before relying on AP to tell you what to think. The mass media is controlled by the Right Wing, remember? So you should fact check their ass before proclaiming the latest scandal du jour.

    There’s a difference between waters “overtopping” levees causing mild flooding, and breaching levees and wiping out the city. The video transcript of the actual prediction made in the August 28th briefing was for “mild flooding” of NOLA, with a predictive accuracy of +/- 20% due to modeling constraints. I believe it is safe to assume that “mild flooding” is a prediction of overtopping, not breach.

    The next transcript of the video conference later prediction made on August 29 stated “but it looks like the federal levies [sic] will not have been (incomprehensible) any breaches to.”

    It isn’t entirely clear what the second quote means, you would had to have been there to really have a feel for that garnled bit, but it sounds like a prediction that the Federal levees will hold.

    Read together, the predictions are for mild overtopping, and the federal levees will not be breached. Just because people mentioned possible worst case scenarios, doesn’t mean that worst case responses were in order. By way of comparison, a couple animals have died in Europe from Avian flu. Worst case scenario is a pandemic that kills 50 million Americans. Ought the president declare quarantine, shut the borders, and order all birds and pets killed? Probably not. It’s generally more appropriate for government to try to prepare for what’s likely to happen, than the worst possible thing that could happen. Was the response to the Katrina prediction (mild flooding, federal levees should hold) appropriate? I don’t know. I do know arguing that “Bush knew the levees would fail and NOLA would be wiped out” based on these transcripts is an over-reading the transcripts don’t support very well.

    Next scandal of the day, please…

  90. 90
    LITBMueller says:

    Assrocket‘s talking point:

    But this has nothing to do with the levees breaching; it has to do with them being overtopped–a much less dangerous threat. In the wake of Hurricane Katrina, there has been endless discussion about the difference between breaching and overtopping. If these AP reporters, Margaret Ebrahim and John Solomon, really don’t know the difference, they have no business reporting on Katrina.

    Of course, there are no links supporting Assrocket’s claim that overtopping was “a much less dangerous threat.”

    So, was it?

    No:

    Mark Schleifstein, the environment writer for the New Orleans Times-Picayune, e-mailed me this morning: “For days in advance of this storm, everyone from the mayor of New Orleans to the governor to [National Hurricane Center Director] Max Mayfield gave a clear message: a Category 4 hurricane will overtop the levees. . . .

    ” Our series and the latest NWS software used by emergency planners throughout New Orleans indicate that even some Category 2 storms could put water over the levees in eastern New Orleans.”

    I’m also told by another source that the two levees that failed were first overtopped — then they eroded from the interior and collapsed. Once water starts spilling over the top of a levee its structural integrity can no longer be guaranteed, apparently — and the corps of engineers was aware of that possibility.

    And, no:

    In July 1999, the Corps held a “command readiness seminar” in New Orleans to discuss the impact of a powerful hurricane hitting the city. It brought together federal, state and local officials to contemplate a storm that would send wind-driven waters surging over the city’s network of levees and flood walls.

    Afterward, the Corps’ Mississippi Valley commander assigned his staff to draft a contingency plan for a catastrophic hurricane in southeastern Louisiana and southern Mississippi. Sometime in 2000 or 2001, the division began drafting a plan to remove the expected 20 feet of water that would fill New Orleans in a major hurricane.

    The Corps planners assumed that the water would fill New Orleans by surging over the city’s levees rather than through breaches in the levees. As a result, plans were made to cut the levees to allow water to flow back into Lake Pontchartrain. They discussed having material on hand to prevent the notches from widening and to repair the notches when the water level inside the city had reached the level outside, said Mr. Sills.

    The Pam planners – representing FEMA, Louisiana’s homeland security agency and Innovative Management – decided to cover New Orleans with 10 to 20 feet of water. Two scenarios were considered for flooding the city: Pam’s storm surge would wash over the levees and flood the city; or the levees would breach, allowing water to pour through the holes into New Orleans.

    FEMA, in collaboration with others, decided to use the overtopping scenario, not the breach, Ms. Beriwal said. FEMA officials did not respond to numerous requests for comment last week.

    “The intent was to create catastrophic flooding conditions,” Ms. Beriwal said. “Overtopping did the job just as well as a breach would in that case, because we still had 10-20 feet of water in the city.”

    Nice try, apologists…got another one?

  91. 91
    CDB says:

    So its depends on what your definition of “Breach” is?

  92. 92
    demimondian says:

    Sorry, Al, but this is wrong:

    There’s a difference between waters “overtopping” levees causing mild flooding, and breaching levees and wiping out the city. The video transcript of the actual prediction made in the August 28th briefing was for “mild flooding” of NOLA, with a predictive accuracy of +/- 20% due to modeling constraints. I believe it is safe to assume that “mild flooding” is a prediction of overtopping, not breach.

    You were alive during the 1992 Mississippi floods, weren’t you? Do you remember the concern about the Saint Louis seawall?

    Once both sides of the base of a seawall are saturated, the wall will fail unless it is quickly isolated from water on both those sides. Since the base of the New Orleans levee is always wet, the levees un question — which are, essentially, seawalls — would fail if they were overtopped. Two feet, ten feet — it doesn’t matter.

  93. 93
    SeesThroughIt says:

    I find it craven and pathetic that so many right-wingers are trying to defend Dear Leader by engaging in an extended parsing of “topped” vs. “breached.” It’s rather like arguing vigorously over what caliber bullet was used to shoot somebody to death in lieu of actually solving the murder.

  94. 94
    GOP4Me says:

    The video footage has been taken out of context. Some disgruntled Fifth Columnist leaked it in the hopes of discreding this Administration. Give Bush a day or two, he’ll release supplemental video footage or documents exonerating his conduct. There will also be appropriate criminal charges for the snitch, if and when his or her identity is uncovered.

    I realize this version of events isn’t as fun and dramatic as the stained blue dress discovery that we Republicans got to enjoy when the last guy was in the White House, but please, don’t let that stop you from jumping the gun every time some potentially damaging shred of circumstantial evidence hoves into view. There’s nothing the American electorate loves more than viewing actions of desperation on behalf of the “loyal” opposition. (Maybe, just maybe, Bush is a little bit too busy today trying to defuse the permanent tensions along the volatile nuclear border between Hinduism and Islam to rush home and exonerate himself from the kook media’s scandal du jour. Unlike your guy Clinton, who had time for nothing else.)

  95. 95
    Steve says:

    Please read the primary sources before relying on AP to tell you what to think. The mass media is controlled by the Right Wing, remember? So you should fact check their ass before proclaiming the latest scandal du jour.

    There’s a difference between waters “overtopping” levees causing mild flooding, and breaching levees and wiping out the city. The video transcript of the actual prediction made in the August 28th briefing was for “mild flooding” of NOLA, with a predictive accuracy of +/- 20% due to modeling constraints. I believe it is safe to assume that “mild flooding” is a prediction of overtopping, not breach.

    If there’s one thing I’ve learned it’s that you should, indeed, check the primary sources rather than rely on Al Maviva’s version of what the primary sources say.

    Here is Al’s quote from the August 28 briefing:

    And the currrent track and the forecast we have now suggests there will be minimal flooding in the city of New Orleans itself, but we’re—we’ve always said that the storm surge model is only accurate within 20 percent.

    Ok, minimal flooding was the prediction. Nothing to see here. But keep reading just to humor me.

    The big question is going to be: will that top some of the levies? And the currrent track and the forecast we have now suggests there will be minimal flooding in the city of New Orleans itself, but we’re—we’ve always said that the storm surge model is only accurate within 20 percent.

    If that track were to deviate just a little bit to the west, it would – it makes all the difference [in] the world. I do expect there will be some of the levies over top even out here in the western portions here where the airport is. We’ve got valleys of 10 feet that can’t overtop some of these levies.

    The problem that we’re going to have here – remember, the winds go counterclockwise around the center of the hurricane. So if the really strong winds clip Lake Poncetrain, that’s going to pile some of that water from Lake Poncetrain over on the south side of the lake. I don’t think any model can tell you with any confidence right now whether the levies will be topped or not, but that’s obviously a very, very grave concern.

    Now, it’s true that no one guaranteed the levees would be overtopped or breached. Indeed, that is a Strawman of the Day contender. But I still don’t see how someone could listen to the serious concerns articulated at this and the other briefings and then jet off to play guitar.

    Here are some excerpts from the earlier part of the briefing, and again, this is only the August 28 briefing:

    Okay. Good afternoon. I don’t have any good news here at all today. This is, as everybody knows by now, a very dangerous hurricane, and the center is just about 225 miles south-southeast of the mouth of the Mississippi River….

    Right now, this is a Category 5 hurricane, very similar to Hurricane Andrew in the maximum intensity, but there is a big, big difference. This hurricane is much larger than Andrew ever was….

    Lily weakened down to a Category 1 hurricane by the time it made landfall. This one is not going to do that. When you have a large diameter eye like this, and as strong as this one is, I really don’t expect to see any significant weakening. So I think the wisest thing to do here is to play on a Category 5 hurricane…

    No one can tell you exactly where that landfall is going to be, but this hurricane is so large that no matter where it hits it’s going to have an impact over a very, very large area.

    One of the frustrations I feel with the “state and local, state and local” crowd is that as ineffectual as Blanco and Nagin may have been, at least they didn’t hear all this and decide it didn’t warrant cutting their vacation short. That’s just a very gut-level, appalling fact.

  96. 96
    Tim F. says:

    Question: who was supposed to drive the buses?

  97. 97
    Jorge says:

    I live in Tampa and I work for a newschannel that covers 24 hours news. For our area, there are about a million different scenarios of what would happen if a hurricane hit. The worst case scenario for the people of Tampa is a hurricane that comes from the gulf and enters the bottom of Tampa bay going north-east. What will happen then is that the storm surge will bottle up into Tampa bay and Hillsborough river and will have no way of escaping back out to sea. It will severely flood the area.

    And whenever a hurricane threatens the area, you have about a 200 mile area up to about 4 hours before the storm were it could hit. Anybody who has spent any time in hurricane country and knows how these things work know that you always have to prepare and expect for a worst case scenario.

    But like in everything from the medicare drug bill to the war in Iraq, we have a POTUS who is never, ever prepared for a worst case scenario. For him to go on to TV and say that no one could have anticipated that the levees would fail is absolutely absurd.

  98. 98
    ppGaz says:

    Al Maviva weighs in with his patented “No controlling legal authority” bullshit.

    Meanwhile, the respect and approval for these complete idiots running the country is being driven into the earth’s crust by a relentless jackhammer of bad and embarassing news.

    In Al’s world, it’s talking about these things that is really the problem. Not the fact that your government can’t manage a charity car wash without fucking it up. Or appearing to fuck it up, which in the world of government is the same thing. Something you’d think that the son of a former president would understand, eh?

    Of course, if he spent the first forty years of his life drunk and with a nose full of cocaine, maybe he wasn’t paying full attention? Who knows? Historians will sort it all out.

  99. 99
    Lee says:

    Give Bush a day or two, he’ll release supplemental video footage or documents exonerating his conduct

    Funny, Congress asked for information and it was deemed to be in the best interests of national security to not release the information (I think it was emails originally). So now it is ok to weaken national security to score politcal points?

  100. 100
    Jorge says:

    Is GOP4Me one of those joke Republican apologists or a real one? The joke ones are so good on these threads I can never tell the difference.

  101. 101
    stickler says:

    Question: who was supposed to drive the buses?

    The Bus Fairies. Who were out on strike that week, it seems.

  102. 102
    Jorge says:

    Hi Lee,
    Everyone knew that when Joseph Wilson was investigating the levees down in NOLA that is was nothing more than a paid vacationa arrnaged by his wife. All he did was sip hurricanes at Pat O’Brien’s and talk to some local government folk.

  103. 103
    Lis Riba says:

    Give Bush a day or two, he’ll release supplemental video footage or documents exonerating his conduct

    They already have.

    Funny, Congress asked for information and it was deemed to be in the best interests of national security to not release the information (I think it was emails originally). So now it is ok to weaken national security to score politcal points?

    Precisely. According to Newsweek:

    the administration initially told Congress that the transcript for the Aug. 29 call — the call congressional investigators were most curious about, given that it occurred as the hurricane was actually battering the Gulf Coast — did not exist, with officials initially telling Capitol Hill that someone at FEMA or Homeland Security forgot to push the button on a tape recorder.”Everybody has been looking for that transcript,” former FEMA chief Michael Brown said Wednesday.A White House official unexpectedly e-mailed the transcript to NEWSWEEK earlier today Wednesday morning — initially without explaining that it was the missing transcript. Two officials familiar with congressional investigations said that the document was turned over to Capitol Hill investigators Tuesday night.

  104. 104
    Lee says:

    So based on Joe Wilson’s investigation it must have been a slam dunk that NOLA was going to be ok.

    /starting to confuse myself with the sarcasm ;)

  105. 105
    TBone says:

    Democrats said the tape shows Bush being warned in urgent terms of the potential magnitude of the storm, making it less defensible that the administration did not act with more dispatch to be ready.

    Bush was warned in “urgent terms of the potential magnitude of the storm.” Everyone says he was fully engaged in monitoring the storm; there’s no ambiguity there. Here is what the transcript said he was briefed by the chief Meteorologist just before the storm – the most accurate assessment/guess before it hit. Pay attention to the highlighted parts:

    The National Hurricane Center’s Mayfield told the final briefing before Katrina struck that storm models predicted minimal flooding inside New Orleans during the hurricane but he expressed concerns that counterclockwise winds and storm surges afterward could cause the levees at Lake Pontchartrain to be overrun.

    The chief meteorologist says the storm models predict “minimal flooding inside New Orleans during the hurricane” – that’s the factual portion of his spiel. The President is briefed that there will be minimal flooding. Next comes the subjective analysis part of the briefing where he expresses concern that the levees “could be overrun.” Well no shit Sherlock, and the wind could blow down some houses too; but what did the computer model say?

    I don’t think any model can tell you with any confidence right now whether the levees will be topped or not but that is obviously a very, very grave concern,” Mayfield told the briefing.

    He doesn’t know for sure. So the President hears that. Wow. Sure the weatherman throws in the part about concern; everyone is concerned Mr. Weatherman, but you just told him data that points to the contrary didn’t you?

    Then-Federal Emergency Management Agency Director Michael D. Brown, who joined the call from Washington, and Max Mayfield, head of the National Hurricane Center in Miami, briefed participating federal and state officials in explicit terms.

    “This is, to put it mildly, the big one,” Brown said. “Everyone within FEMA is now virtually on call.”

    So, the Federal Government knows this storm is big. The President realizes that his man Brown – head of FEMA – is fully aware of the magnitude of the situation. The President knows he has entrusted Brown with the leadership of FEMA, and has delegated responsibility of its functions as well. President Bush is clearly shown supervising his subordinate leaders in the tapes, which is the responsibility of a leader. Brown tells the Boss that “Everyone within FEMA is now virtually on call.” The President hears that the total capability of his Federal Emergency Management capability is being utilized. What else can the Fed do at this point? Hire more FEMA people? Wave the magic wand?

    After the hurricane, everyone is quick to point the finger of blame squarely on the Fed for the effects of the aftermath, but look at this:

    Louisiana officials angrily blamed the federal government for not being prepared but the transcripts show they were still praising FEMA as the storm roared toward the Gulf Coast and even two days afterward. “I think a lot of the planning FEMA has done with us the past year has really paid off,” Col. Jeff Smith, Louisiana’s emergency preparedness deputy director, said during the Aug. 28 briefing.

    Damn, Louisiana’s emergency preparedness deputy said that FEMA had been working with Louisiana well before the disaster…and PRAISES THEM for it. Things that make you go “Hmmmmm”. Maybe FEMA isn’t on their ass; could it be the State and Local governments response that was screwed up?

    Other officials expressed concerns about the large number of New Orleans residents who had not evacuated.

    “They’re not taking patients out of hospitals, taking prisoners out of prisons and they’re leaving hotels open in downtown New Orleans. So I’m very concerned about that,” Brown said.

    Despite the concerns, it ultimately took days for search and rescue teams to reach some hospitals and nursing homes.

    So, even though the storm was going to be so bad that the levees would break (even though the weather dude couldn’t predict that), Mayor Count Chocula and the Governor didn’t see fit to evacuate their own people. Mr. Brown was concerned about it. Why didn’t they do something to save their own people? If the President was supposed to “do something” (and he did – FEMA was fully engaged well before and during the storm according to the transcripts, AND the LA. state emergency dude), then why didn’t the State and Local folks feel compelled to do the same?

    In New Orleans, Mayor C. Ray Nagin (D) was visibly shocked when shown the recording by reporters.

    It “seems they were aware of everything . . . that we would need lots of help,” Nagin said after a post-Mardi Gras news conference. “Why was the response so slow?”

    When the video ended, Nagin turned away and said, “Oh, God.”

    Seems like you were aware of everything too Mr. Chocolate. Why was your response so slow?

    (Note: quotes from this posts link and this link )

  106. 106
    GOP4Me says:

    Funny, Congress asked for information and it was deemed to be in the best interests of national security to not release the information (I think it was emails originally). So now it is ok to weaken national security to score politcal points?

    Well, now that some leaker has violated national security interests already by divulging this video, the White House has to perform damage control. Clearly, it’s not in the national interest for the American people to lose faith in their government, so clearly, the White House must now release information it would otherwise be loath to part with. If salvaging a government’s reputation for competence in the face of adversity is “scoring political points” in your book, then so be it. As for me, I think the credibility of a wartime President who is the only American capable of saving us from AQ is far more important than the residual security value of a few internal memos and emails, now that some Commie rat has already helped the moonbat media circus onslaught. To each his own, I suppose.

  107. 107
    Lee says:

    …forgot to push the button on a tape recorder.

    That is not even a believable lie. Who believes for a second that it is still a manual process to record incoming calls?

  108. 108
    GOP4Me says:

    Is GOP4Me one of those joke Republican apologists or a real one? The joke ones are so good on these threads I can never tell the difference.

    Yes, I have to give DougJ credit. He is good at what he does, obfuscating the issue and hamstringing debate. That’s why I despise him so immensely.

  109. 109
    Tim F. says:

    People,

    Big links bork the margins. Use the hyperlink button.

  110. 110
    Par R says:

    The AP is trumpeting a story that’s a yawn, one with no “there there.” Of course Bush knew a hurricane was coming. The whole world knew. With the active cooperation of the national media, the state and national Democrats were planning to politicize the storm at least two days before it struck and carried out that plan with stunning precision.

    The media got it wrong yet again on Katrina. The notion that the experts warned of levee breaches is nothing more than a hack job initiated by the AP and continued by the rest of the Exempt Media even after the source material has proven it false.

    The New York Times has the full transcript of the August 28 and 29 meetings, but the following excerpts are illuminating in terms of demonstrating how totally phony the AP story is that Tim is pushing in this post:

    “MAX MAYFIELD: … The rest of the track we have 10 to 15 feet, in a few areas up to 16 feet. At least glimpsed it out, and Louisiana can talk a little bit more about this than I can, but it looks like the Federal levies [sic] around the City of New Orleans will not have been (incomprehensible) any breaches to.”

    That certainly doesn’t sound like a warning — and this was on the day the levees broke. That transcript clearly shows that the conference considered the storm surge and precipitation runoff to be the major threats of flooding in New Orleans. The possibility of breaches, even on the 29th, had been discounted.

    The transcript from the August 28th meeting talked more about levees, but in the same vein, and this time no one mentions the word “breach”. Starting on page 5, Max Mayfield again talks about the dangers of Lake Pontchartrain, but only in the context of the winds created a surge that could overtop the levees:

    “One of the valleys here in Lake Pontchartrain, we’ve got on our forecast track, if it maintains its intensity: about 12 1/2 feet of storm surge in the lake. The big question is going to be: will that top some of the levies? And the currrent track and the forecast we have now suggests there will be minimal flooding in the city of New Orleans itself, but we’re — we’ve always said that the storm surge model is only accurate within 20 percent.

    “If that track were to deviate just a little bit to the west, it would — it makes all the difference in the world. I do expect that there will be some of the levies over top even out here in the western portions where the airport is. We’ve got valleys that can’t overtop some of the levies.

    “The problem we’re going to have here — remember, the winds go counterclockwise around the center of the hurricane. So if the really strong winds clip Lake Pontchartrain, that’s going to pile some of that water from Lake Pontchartrain over on the south side of the lake. I don’t think any model can tell you with any confidence right now whether the levies will be topped or not, but that’s obviously a very, very grave concern.”

    Again, the entire briefing that related to levees only focused on the effects of the wind on Lake Pontchartrain and its effect in pushing water over the top of the levees. Mayfield never even addressed the possibility of breaches in the levee walls.

    As Al said above, “Next.”

  111. 111
    Steve says:

    a wartime President who is the only American capable of saving us from AQ

    Give it up. The spoof is exposed.

  112. 112
    Lee says:

    GOP4Me aaaahhhhh the sweet smell of facism.

  113. 113
    GOP4Me says:

    Give it up. The spoof is exposed.

    F-ck you, Steve.

    GOP4Me aaaahhhhh the sweet smell of facism.

    Whatever, RINO.

  114. 114
    Steve says:

    Give it up!

  115. 115
    Ancient Purple says:

    Clearly, it’s not in the national interest for the American people to lose faith in their government, so clearly, the White House must now release information it would otherwise be loath to part with.

    So, how long can you goosestep before your legs get tired, GOP?

  116. 116
    AkaDad says:

    Powerline has lost what little credibility they had after posting this.

    In fact, the response to Hurricane Katrina was by far the largest–and fastest-rescue effort in U.S. history, with nearly 100,000 emergency personnel arriving on the scene within three days of the storm’s landfall.

    This has to be, one of the most absurd and ludicrous statements I have heard, regarding Katrina. I can’t believe anyone reads that Powerline blog.

  117. 117
  118. 118
    Otto Man says:

    Will the only reply by the Administration be pointing out the failures at the state/local level?

    Yeah, it’s the fault of state and local leaders for believing the president when he said the federal government was “fully prepared” to deal with the storm and ready to move in supplies and manpower at a moment’s notice.

    I don’t think anybody anticipated what a colossal fuck-up this president would be.

  119. 119
    ppGaz says:

    I can’t believe anyone reads that Powerline blog

    Have you met Darrell and MacBuckets?

  120. 120
    GOP4Me says:

    Give it up!

    I’m not going to stop speaking my mind just because it annoys you, Steve.

    So, how long can you goosestep before your legs get tired, GOP?

    My grandfather killed Nazis for 4 years just as I’m assuming yours did, Ancient Purple. Godwin’s Law or no Godwin’s Law, that’s an inappropriate comment.

  121. 121
    ppGaz says:

    My grandfather killed Nazis for 4 years

    Sure, but wasn’t that in Mississippi?

  122. 122
    Steve says:

    a wartime President who is the only American capable of saving us from AQ

    Dude, you’ve become the guy in the commercial with the Snickers bars on his head. No one other than a spoofer would say some of these things. Just give it up!

  123. 123
    ppGaz says:

    Dude, you’ve become the guy in the commercial with the Snickers bars on his head.

    I thought it was John.

    I think the line is:

    “We think you should take the Snickers bars off your head. We know you’re a liberal.”

  124. 124
    Lee says:

    Whatever, RINO.

    Please do not associate me with ANY politcal party.

  125. 125
    Lee says:

    (comments need edits)

    Whatever, RINO.

    Interesting that you would associate facism with someone being a ‘real’ Republican. Not sure if that says more about you or Republicans.

  126. 126
    GOP4Me says:

    Sure, but wasn’t that in Mississippi?

    ???

    Dude, you’ve become the guy in the commercial with the Snickers bars on his head. No one other than a spoofer would say some of these things. Just give it up!

    ??? Snicker’s Bar???

    We think you should take the Snickers bars off your head. We know you’re a liberal.” “

    ?What in God’s name are you people yammering about?

    Please do not associate me with ANY politcal party.

    Is exotic African wildlife an acceptable alternative?

  127. 127
    LITBMueller says:

    Hmmm… a few things I might have said if I was Bush at the teleconference:

    “I hear your concerns, Brownie. What are we doing about it?”

    “What would happen if the levees did top?”

    “Are all our assets in place? Do we need more?”

    “What can I do from my end to help you?”

    “Should we get those people out of the Dome, Brownie?”

    “Holy shit!”

  128. 128
    Steve says:

    “Oh no, I’m so confused.” Just give it up already!

  129. 129
    GOP4Me says:

    Interesting that you would associate facism with someone being a ‘real’ Republican. Not sure if that says more about you or Republicans.

    Wasn’t associating anything with Fascism, I was just being as casually dismissive of you as you were in your insults to me. Fight laziness with laziness… or not. Whatever.

  130. 130
    ppGaz says:

    ?What in God’s name are you people yammering about?

    You might try looking into the modern meaning of the word “whoosh.”

  131. 131
    gratefulcub says:

    Breached vs Overtopped.

    Is this not emblematic of the administration? Maybe no one predicted that the levees were going to be breached and NO was going to be completely flooded. But, it had to have been somewhere in the range of possibilities. 10% no flooding, 40% minor overtopping, 40% major overtopping, 10% major flooding caused by breaching. Everyone’s biggest fear before the storm was failure of the levees. They find someone that says “They won’t breach”, and they proceed with that assumption.

    They were 100% sure there would be no insurgency in Iraq. So, they didn’t plan for the possible outcome of an insurgency.

    Where is the contingency planning? Why do they always believe the happy talk?

    They come right out and tell us that what we need is ‘optimism.’ I need some realism. Someone to accept that the worst might happen. Failure IS an option in Iraq. Failure is always an option, regardless of how optimistic you are.

  132. 132
    GOP4Me says:

    You might try looking into the modern meaning of the word “whoosh.”

    What? I don’t follow.

  133. 133
    AkaDad says:

    ppGaz,

    Thanks for that link, that was pretty funny.

  134. 134
    Pb says:

    Perhaps we’ll never know why the gulf coast wasn’t entirely evacuated, or why President Nagin didn’t pre-emptively exercise his war powers to do so.

  135. 135
    Steve says:

    He’s doing an impression of the Snickers guy. “??What??” As everyone walks sadly away…

  136. 136
    GOP4Me says:

    He’s doing an impression of the Snickers guy. “??What??” As everyone walks sadly away…

    For the last frigging time, WHO IS THE SNICKERS GUY???!

  137. 137
    Pooh says:

    Anyone else noticing how “now one could have predicted” is morphing into “no one could have guaranteed?”

  138. 138
    Lee says:

    Excellent point Pooh.

    I can’t guarantee that I’ll be alive tomorrow morning, so I guess it is a night of hookers and booze for me ;)

  139. 139
    SeesThroughIt says:

    Question: who was supposed to drive the buses?

    Sean Hannity.

    You know, GOP4Me’s real-vs.-spoofer situation is a tough one to call. He really toes that line quite well. I’ve been leaning toward the “Sadly, he’s being serious” side, but after his performance in this thread, I’m now leaning toward the spoofer side.

  140. 140
    GOP4Me says:

    I can’t guarantee that I’ll be alive tomorrow morning, so I guess it is a night of hookers and booze for me

    Have fun, but maybe you should think about stoping by a church and seeking redemption for your sins instead. An eternity of Hellfire is hardly worth an evening of transient and overrated pleasure.

  141. 141
    Otto Man says:

    For the last frigging time, WHO IS THE SNICKERS GUY???!

    An ad for Snickers, where a balding man in denial tries to cover up his baldness with Snickers bars. His co-workers stage an intervention, telling him they know he’s bald and his cover-up isn’t fooling anyone. It ends with him crying in his car to the sounds of “Make Your Own Kind of Music.”

  142. 142
    GOP4Me says:

    You know, GOP4Me’s real-vs.-spoofer situation is a tough one to call. He really toes that line quite well. I’ve been leaning toward the “Sadly, he’s being serious” side, but after his performance in this thread, I’m now leaning toward the spoofer side.

    It’s not my fault I don’t have any idea what you kooks are talking about with Snicker’s bars. What the heck kind of a reference is that? If I throw out some obscure quote from Saint Anselm, are you all supposed to immediately grasp it?

  143. 143
    GOP4Me says:

    An ad for Snickers, where a balding man in denial tries to cover up his baldness with Snickers bars. His co-workers stage an intervention, telling him they know he’s bald and his cover-up isn’t fooling anyone. It ends with him crying in his car to the sounds of “Make Your Own Kind of Music.”

    Thank you. I hadn’t seen the commercial.

    Now, was that so hard, people?

  144. 144
    ppGaz says:

    If I throw out some obscure quote from Saint Anselm, are you all supposed to immediately grasp it?

    You can rest tonight, knowing that we will immediately grasp just about anything you can put out there, compadre.

    We’re here for ya.

  145. 145
    GOP4Me says:

    You can rest tonight, knowing that we will immediately grasp just about anything you can put out there, compadre.

    We’re here for ya.

    That’s a very weird and disturbing thing to say, peepee.

    But if I’m misunderstanding it in some way, I offer my apologies and my thanks. I think.

  146. 146
    gratefulcub says:

    GOP4Me,
    is that your blog that your name links to?

    Were you complaining about the left being partisan and indoctrinated earlier in this thread? That we all just HATE bush?

    My question for those on the Right is, what could Bush do better? For purposes of categorization, I’m assuming that most of you agree with me on the wonderful job he’s doing. What do you think he should do differently, if anything? Personally, I’m a bit troubled that he hasn’t taken a bolder stance on the Iran question. I think an overt threat of nuclear retaliation would do wonders to ease our diplomatic situation. I realize this position may be unpopular, but I only mention it as an example.

  147. 147
    Ancient Purple says:

    My grandfather killed Nazis for 4 years just as I’m assuming yours did, Ancient Purple.

    I salute your grandfather’s service in the cause of defeating the Nazis.

    Unfortunately, the good works of your grandfather do not provide cover for your character.

    Godwin’s Law or no Godwin’s Law, that’s an inappropriate comment.

    If the goose-stepping boot fits…

  148. 148
    Lines says:

    The smoking gun has come in the form of a dead city and we have assholes like Tbone defending the indefensible.

    Congrats, we’ve reached the lowest we can go.

  149. 149
    GOP4Me says:

    Were you complaining about the left being partisan and indoctrinated earlier in this thread? That we all just HATE bush?

    What’s wrong with what I wrote? Don’t most conservatives support a conservative President?

    Unfortunately, the good works of your grandfather do not provide cover for your character.

    This, coming from a member of the anti-war, objectively pro-Saddam left. Rich.

    I suppose you’ll tell me that it’s inappropriate to call you pro-Saddam. In reply to which, I can simply point back to your post and recite…

    If the goose-stepping boot fits…

    Did the Baathists goosestep, too, or was that just the Nazis and the Soviets?

  150. 150
    ppGaz says:

    That’s a very weird and disturbing thing to say, peepee.

    But if I’m misunderstanding it in some way, I offer my apologies and my thanks. I think.

    This, from a person who takes my initials and turns them into a crude reference to private parts?

    GFY, dude.

  151. 151
    VidaLoca says:

    Have fun, but maybe you should think about stoping by a church and seeking redemption for your sins instead. An eternity of Hellfire is hardly worth an evening of transient and overrated pleasure.

    OK, that does it for me.
    Jorge, the answer to your question: this cannot be serious.

  152. 152
    gratefulcub says:

    What’s wrong with what I wrote? Don’t most conservatives support a conservative President?

    Name one conservative thing he has done.

    Iraq is a liberal pipedream.
    Fiscal conservative?

    Have you not noticed the jumping of ship by ‘conservatives’? Only the partisans are left.

  153. 153
    gratefulcub says:

    What’s wrong with what I wrote?

    For starters:

    I think an overt threat of nuclear retaliation would do wonders to ease our diplomatic situation.

    I suppose you don’t want us to make empty threats, do you? So, you are arguing for nuclear retalliation, and asking what’s wrong with that statement?

  154. 154
    gratefulcub says:

    What’s wrong with what I wrote? Don’t most conservatives support a conservative President?

    My original point was: I read some of your comments. You riducule others arguments by using the sarcastic tone indicating that you believe others are indocrinated leftists that can’t see past their partisan hatred. I then follow your link to a post that is as blindly partisan as any I have seen, followed by one that is laying the groundwork for blaming the left for Bush’s failure in Iraq.

    Alanis, that is the definition of Irony

  155. 155
    Jorge says:

    So, the intelligence failed Bush again.

    What he was supposed to do? The hurricane guy told him that the current model – which was about 20% accurate – showed that there would be only slight flooding. Sure, the guy then added that the real unknown factor was whether the storm surges caused the levees be able to contain the water. But when you are planning for a potential disaster, you don’t speculate on worst case scenarios. You plan for a hurricane with the scenario you have, not the scenario you don’t have.

    Because see, we didn’t vote the President in to have any foresight. We didn’t hire him to plan for worst case scenarios. We didn’t send him to Washington to read a book on hurricanes on his.

    We voted him in to sit around a ranch in Texas and to only pay attention to the highlighted materials of the briefings given to him. And to then to pick the least imaginative course of action.

    And yes, Fema was doing the best they could. The best they could with a Horsey lawyer at the helm and a slashed budget. Goodness, I remember watching the folks trapped at the government building in NO on the Thursday after the hit on CNN. Then I remember not an hour later hearing Chertoff on NPR saying that those reports were false because he didn’t know anything about them. And I remember the fact that even though the NO papers website had reported a breech in the levees the Monday night of the hurricane, Bush opted to go on his little cake cutting, guitar playing photo op on that Tuesday. Seriously, if Bush and co were relying on newspapers for their information, couldn’t they at least check the local papers?

    I thought Bush was going to be the CEO president. Well, imagine a CEO using this excuse after a monumental disaster to the company, “My team and I did everything we could to prepare for one scenario. Unfortunately, we failed to account for what our interanl experts warned us would happen in a worst case scenario. We had a failure of imagination.”

  156. 156
    VidaLoca says:

    Don’t most conservatives support a conservative President?

    They sure do. Endlessly, mindlessly.

    Can you bring back Nixon? Please? Anything, anything but this…

  157. 157
    Jorge says:

    What’s wrong with what I wrote? Don’t most conservatives support a conservative President?

    Which is why I’m mystified by the fact that you guys have followed someone with a classically liberal foreign policy and that has expanded the role and size of government more than any POTUS since Johnson. Or are we going for the post 9/11 definition of conservative – A supporter of George Bush?

    Seriously – you guys do realize that Bush’s foreign policy and use of military force is closer to historically liberal POTUS like Wilson, FDR, Truman and Johnson than historically conservative ones like Eisenhower, Nixon and Reagan?

  158. 158
    GOP4Me says:

    This, from a person who takes my initials and turns them into a crude reference to private parts?

    GFY, dude.

    Sorry I’m not into some weird sexual fantasy you have, peepee.

    OK, that does it for me.
    Jorge, the answer to your question: this cannot be serious.

    You’re right, I was joking when I told him to have fun. You can never really have fun when your life is so empty and hopeless that you have to fill the time with alcohol and women of loose morals. If you don’t feel the same way, we’ll have to agree to disagree.

    Name one conservative thing he has done.

    I can name you two in a heartbeat.

    1. Roberts
    2. Alito

    I suppose you don’t want us to make empty threats, do you? So, you are arguing for nuclear retalliation, and asking what’s wrong with that statement?

    Well, it’s not like we wouldn’t give them time to evacuate first. Or give them relief aid afterward, just like we always do for people that want to kill us.

    Alanis, that is the definition of Irony

    Sorry, I despise Alanis Morisette. Enough sappy songs about hitchhiking or God-knows-what. A liberal friend in college made me watch some movie where she played God, too. Talk about tripe. This is the ideological wellspring of liberalism? Movies like “Dogma?” No wonder 51% of America thinks you’re morally defunct.

  159. 159
    chopper says:

    Well, imagine a CEO using this excuse after a monumental disaster to the company, “My team and I did everything we could to prepare for one scenario. Unfortunately, we failed to account for what our interanl experts warned us would happen in a worst case scenario. We had a failure of imagination.”

    i know exactly what would happen. million-dollar bonuses all around!

    in the case of the CEO president, he gives out Medals of Freedom(R) instead.

    my god, it all makes sense now.

  160. 160
    Steve says:

    The verdict is in, friends. Spoof, spoof, spoof, spoof, spoof.

    And seriously, dude, it was an A+ job.

  161. 161
    gratefulcub says:

    Sorry, I despise Alanis Morisette.

    Ummm. She sang a song about irony in which nothing was actually ironic. You are.

    Well, it’s not like we wouldn’t give them time to evacuate first. Or give them relief aid afterward, just like we always do for people that want to kill us.

    Are you aware of the reprecussions of using a nuclear weapon? Where would a country evacuate to? Aid? Are you kidding me? If we drop a nuclear weapon on Iran, whoever lives through it will spend the rest of their lives killing anyone that looks ‘western’. People hate to be occupied, they hate being nuked even more.

    We just aren’t as powerful as you believe. We can alter the way nations behave, we can’t manipulate the hearts and minds of a billion people with our military. Well, we can, but not in a positive way.

  162. 162
    chopper says:

    This is the ideological wellspring of liberalism? Movies like “Dogma?”

    since you guys got the ‘left behind’ series, i wouldn’t talk if i were you.

  163. 163
    VidaLoca says:

    Well, it’s not like we wouldn’t give them time to evacuate first. Or give them relief aid afterward, just like we always do for people that want to kill us.

    Well, that’s charitiable of us.

    “Why? Because we’re Christians(tm), goddammit, that’s why!”

  164. 164
    gratefulcub says:

    Steve,
    You know this how? He is good.

  165. 165
    Vlad says:

    The Bus Fairies. Who were out on strike that week, it seems.

    Probably out protesting in favor of gay marriage, the pansies.

  166. 166
    StupidityRules says:

    gratefulclub asked:

    Where is the contingency planning? Why do they always believe the happy talk?

    With God on their side, why should they waste time by making plans for something going wrong?

    But after all these f*ckups they probably should ask themselves if God actually is on their side. Cause it might be that other guy.

  167. 167
    Pb says:

    GOP4Me might be a spoof, and he might not be, but I stopped caring about that when he showed himself to be a lying weasel.

  168. 168
    gratefulcub says:

    But after all these f*ckups they probably should ask themselves if God actually is on their side. Cause it might be that other guy.

    My God is bigger than your god.

  169. 169
    Perry Como says:

    Congrats, we’ve reached the lowest we can go.

    We haven’t seen the baby eating ceremony yet.

  170. 170
    Lee says:

    I gotta go with the spoof as well.

    Missing the implied sarcasm of my statement was last sign.

    Whoever is behind it, I am impressed. Very good job.

  171. 171
    Steve says:

    a wartime President who is the only American capable of saving us from AQ

    Seriously, raise your hands, everyone who still believes GOP4Me is for real. I’ve caught a lot of Internet spoofers over the years, so I might be ahead of the curve, but I really think he’s made this one very easy for us.

  172. 172
    CaseyL says:

    Hey! I liked Dogma!

  173. 173
    Ancient Purple says:

    I suppose you’ll tell me that it’s inappropriate to call you pro-Saddam.

    You can call me “pro-Saddam” all you wish. I will be content knowing that such allegations come from a Bush sycophant and goose-stepping moron like yourself.

    (Although I am also now leaning toward the fact that you are just a bad spoofer since no human being could really be as idiotic as you are.)

  174. 174
    Lines says:

    This is almost like a coke-snorting Bush shot Nola in the face, then blamed Nola for getting in the way.

  175. 175
    Ancient Purple says:

    Can you bring back Nixon? Please? Anything, anything but this…

    I acutally saw a bumpersticker on a car last week that said, “How sad I am missing Nixon.”

    For myself, I really want to get a ribbon magnet for the back of my car that says, “I support the $2 Chinese ribbon magnet makers.”

  176. 176
    Perry Como says:

    Seriously, raise your hands, everyone who still believes GOP4Me is for real.

    After reading sites like LGF, Redstate and FreeRepublic, I often wonder if the “conservative” movement is for real. GOP4Me seems like another idiotarian — better to mock than engage directly.

  177. 177

    Ummm. She sang a song about irony in which nothing was actually ironic. You are.

    This is one thing that bugs me. People trying to pretend they are smart by questioning something they clearly have not researched and don’t understand. My brother pulled this one on me, using this same claim. So I researched it, as the song seemed reasonably correct to me when I first heard it.

    I found this, which I believe offers a concise examination of the dictionary definition of the word irony:
    http://www.geocities.com/eirig/

    The key point is, the word irony historically has referred to actions of fate… things happening which mock what you expect to happen.

    Perhaps we should ask… Isn’t it moronic?

  178. 178
    ppGaz says:

    I’ve caught a lot of Internet spoofers over the years

    Wow, now there is a story you can tell the grandkids!

  179. 179
    Andrew says:

    Seriously, raise your hands, everyone who still believes GOP4Me is for real. I’ve caught a lot of Internet spoofers over the years, so I might be ahead of the curve, but I really think he’s made this one very easy for us.

    He was dropping hints a few threads ago.

    But here’s where it gets interesting:

    1) John Cole gets sick. And then “busy.”
    2) GOP4Me arrives.

    Coincidence? I think he’s in the last throes, if you will, of the Republican party.

  180. 180
    Lee says:

    After reading sites like LGF, Redstate and FreeRepublic,….

    If you do this on a regular basis you are a braver man than me. :D

  181. 181
    Al Maviva says:

    Question: who was supposed to drive the buses?

    Why, FEMA’s 2500 employees, of course. It’s not like they had anything better to do. For the record, everybody involved in the response & relief effort, not just the lying lying lie-ey liarly liars of the lying Bushlie Liedministration, but also the touchy-feely NGOs and the states and local government officials of both parties involved in response & relief have testified that it was the biggest hurricane response and relief effort in history. LGEN Honore testified a week ago that the logistics of the military side of the operation, including the Nat Guard and Title 10 military involvement was the “largest military movement on domestic soil since the civil war.” The Coast Guard rescued roughly 80,000 people via helicopter. The scale is beyond comprehension. Should the government pre-emptively roll out that many assets – an order of magnitude more, actually – whenever it is possible that a worst case scenario *could* occur? This is a non-trivial question, because many worst case scenarios could happen every single year, but few do.

    The meteorological prediction for flooding was that mild flooding was to be expected, but that it could possibly go much worse; and the response, that was wholly inadequate according to every expert here, was to prepare to deal with mild flooding, though DOD’s recent testimony indicates that they had prepared for big troop movements as early as Saturday before. That’s a bit easier to do when you have several thousand staff officers milling around CONUS who live to plan, plan to live. I’m sure everybody here believes that what the Administration did, and is doing in the rebuilding effort is utterly inadequate – yet was one of the largest relief efforts in history, and unprecedented domestically. When exactly should the government trigger a $200 billion dollar process based on predictions of mild flooding? Should any prediction of “mild flooding but could be a lot worse” trigger national mobilization?

    If I draw the correct lesson for the Administration from this, then it should calibrate all of its security and preparedness efforts at preventing worse case scenarios, rather than relying on forecasts of what is likely and preparing for the likely. It sounds good to prepare for worst case scenarios, but I’m not sure that’s a good way to govern, or to live your life. If it were, we’d all be living in well stocked bunkers in the hills…

    I give you again, Avian flu. How should we prevent an outbreak here? The worst case scenario is 50 or 100 million dead in the U.S., if it jumps species. HHS is putting together all sorts of quarantine and treatment measures, and probably (I don’t know but guess) planning on killing lots of birds and other critters if it hits here. But if Bush really cared, if he didn’t hate black people and birds so much, shouldn’t we just kill all the animals and prevent anybody from coming to the U.S. from Europe or Asia? It seems to me that if we’re doing decision-making based on worst case scenario, that’s how to handle it.

    I realize PPGaz just crapped his pants in anger at that, and Slide is about to call me names, but if Bush should have prepared for absolute worst case scenario for mere bad weather, shouldn’t all potential emergencies be prepared for with the same urgency? Michael Brown testified that he dealt with roughly 80 Stafford Act declared federal emergencies prior to Katrina – how did the government prepare for and react to them? Probzbly totally inadequately; if everybody’s needs were met, then there wasn’t available an on-the-spot excess of capacity to handle worst cases…

    So why not get going with some activism to get the government to treat bird flu with the same approach being advocated, retrospectively, for Katrina? Maybe 1000 people died during the Katrina disaster, some large subset actually killed by the storm, others dying with varying degrees of Katrina-related causation. Yet isn’t avian flu a much more serious threat? 120 people recently died of it in Turkey in a tiny little outbreak met with draconian measures. How much worse would it be here?

    For that matter, why are we pussyfooting around with terrorism, given the worst case scenarios there? Shouldn’t we have the whole country on lockdown, if Bush was competent and actually cared about the country?

    Or should we act drastically with respect to *potential* weather disasters even if relatively mild problems are posed, but only take minimal steps where security and public health are threatened? In truth, the dangers posed by Avian Flu and WMD terrorist attack are probably worse than the losing 1000 lives total, assuming that the worst-case-scenario dictates appropriate planning and response.

  182. 182
    moflicky says:

    LITBM,

    1) The release of the transcripts from the day after the video.
    —Day late and a dollar short, buddy. No good getting concerned about airplanes striking the WTC on 9/12.

    well, I suppose Bush should have been a New Orleans Levee disaster expert as part of his job description, eh? He’s supposed to have people to ask the right questions.

    2) Bush said “breached,” the video talked about “topping.”
    —It’s the water, stupid. Both breaching and topping mean that water is going where you don’t want it to – into places where people frickin’ live.

    The levees being topped vs. breached are two very different things. if you weren’t such an idiot, you would know the difference. I’ll make it simple for you:

    levees topped: bad.
    levees breached: very very very very very very bad.

    if you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about… oh never mind. you won’t even understand this.

    3) But, Mayor Nagin fucked up, too. And, Blanco And…the busses! —Yeah, but they don’t control the Feds, don’t have their fingers on the nuclear button, and haven’t started two wars in the Middle East.

    don’t like an answer, change the subject. “war!, bush lied, people died!!!”

    Historically, disasters have always been handled locally, with assistance from the fed after the fact. suddenly, the rules of the game are changed in mid-disaster and the fed is expected to react to not only their responsibilities (which they did poorly) but they’ve got to take the blame for the local’s incompetance too?

    convenient for your argument ain’t it?

    OK, Rove, give me some more! I’m ready for ya, and the wussies at RedState are still waiting for their talking points memo

    yeah, yeah, tell me more fairy tales.

  183. 183
    SeesThroughIt says:

    My God is bigger than your god.

    My god just housed your god in basketball. Perhaps your god is bigger, but he really needs to work on his medium-range game.

    Perry Como, sites like RedState, Free Republic, etc. are what give spoofers plausible deniability, you know? A good spoofer sounds like the people who hang out at those sites–only the people who hang out at those sites aren’t kidding. Like I said before, reading sites like blogsforbush made me hesitant to call DougJ a spoofer right away because he sounded so much like the people on that site.

  184. 184
    Lee says:

    …Shouldn’t we have the whole country on lockdown, if Bush was competent and actually cared about the country?

    Dear God you have no idea what it really means to be an American do you?

  185. 185
    Lines says:

    moflicky:

    breached vs. topped is NOT different. Topping the levee caused some of the levees to topple and be breached. The main breach was caused by a loose barge that hit the levee around 2am.

    Trying to play the word game is like saying someone is only mostly dead.

    When Bush says “we are prepared” in that meeting, did you even hear it? Or did you not watch it? Do any of the facts presented in this story (not the thread) make you think that maybe, just maybe, Bush is responsible? Maybe he’s responsible for playing the guitar while people were drowning? Maybe he was responsible for saying “heckofa job, Brownie!” without even knowing that the situation was grim?

    Or do you not care about what Bush is responsible for? You only seem to care about what you can blame on everyone else, how you can deflect, and when you can’t deflect, you defend.

    Historically, disasters have always been handled locally, with assistance from the fed after the fact.

    I notice you don’t put down any factual occurances of this happening in a situation where a disaster was predicted 48 hours ahead of time. I’ll give you some time to think about it.

  186. 186
    ppGaz says:

    I realize PPGaz just crapped his pants in anger at that,

    Did you say something?

    Seriously, do you think people actually read those long things you post? I’d rather read the terms and conditions booklets I keep getting from credit card companies, they’re more entertaining.

  187. 187
    RonB says:

    Have fun, but maybe you should think about stoping by a church and seeking redemption for your sins instead. An eternity of Hellfire is hardly worth an evening of transient and overrated pleasure.

    HAHAHAHA!! Maybe this is someone from Landover Baptist. You got it goin’ on, GOP!!

  188. 188
    Perry Como says:

    sites like RedState, Free Republic, etc. are what give spoofers plausible deniability, you know?

    At this point I think all wingnuts are spoofs. It’s hard to believe that a person can be that genuinely stupid.

  189. 189
    GOP4Me says:

    You people are hopeless. Why do I waste my time?

    I go away for an hour, and what do I get? 10 people thinking I’m DougJ, 1 who thinks I’m a bad impersonation of DougJ, 1 thinking I’m from Landover Baptist (as far as I know, that’s some kind of spoof religious site, right?), and unless I’ve overlooked one, 0 wanting to discuss anything substantive.

    I try to educate you, really I do. But it seems like many of you are a lost cause. I don’t want to give up hope, but sometimes it seems like I almost have to. I think I may have to take the rest of the afternoon off, and go find solace in something else. Anything else, I don’t know. I’m at work, so building a snowman or reading the Bible are both pretty much out. And Lord knows WORK is out of the question at a time like this. Maybe I’ll go check out this Landover website, I’ve never really spent too much time there before. As for you people, I’ll get back to you in a couple days or so.

  190. 190
    LITBMueller says:

    Moflicky, go check out my other comment above, which includes this:

    FEMA, in collaboration with others, decided to use the overtopping scenario, not the breach, Ms. Beriwal said. FEMA officials did not respond to numerous requests for comment last week.

    “The intent was to create catastrophic flooding conditions,” Ms. Beriwal said. “Overtopping did the job just as well as a breach would in that case, because we still had 10-20 feet of water in the city.”

    Now, use some common sense: a levee breaks in specific areas, causing flooding. Overtopping can be as catastophic as along an entire levee. Both would cause widespread flooding. Especially considering the predicted storm surge and the height of the existing levees.

    Whether someone tells you overtopping or breaching, your immediate response should be, “Oh,shit!”

    So…to recap for those with reading comprehension difficulties: asfar as the Corp of Engineers was concerned, overtopping was just as bad as a breach – each caused 10-20 feet of flooding.

    I suggest before calling me an idiot, you either put up some links proving that I am, or you actually do some research instead of parroting GOP talking points.

  191. 191
    Tom says:

    “Needless to say, this video came from somebody who has a beef with the president.”

    This video was sent out by the White House on August 28.

  192. 192
    Pb says:

    Al Maviva,

    Question: who was supposed to drive the buses?

    Why, FEMA’s 2500 employees, of course.

    No, Al, they were actually very busy making sure that trucks of ice and temporary trailers didn’t actually get anywhere that might need them…

    …Mission Accomplished!

  193. 193
    Pb says:

    GOP4Me,

    I try to educate you, really I do.

    Yeah, without you around, I never would have found out about the right of the government to declare seditious traitors as enemy combatants and indefinitely hold them at Guantanamo Bay for exercising their First Amendment rights to spew both factual information and opinion, thereby giving aid and comfort to the enemy… what will we do without your guidance?

  194. 194
    Ancient Purple says:

    As for you people, I’ll get back to you in a couple days or so.

    Please feel free to take all the time in the world.

  195. 195
    Steve says:

    Note that GOP4Me never comes out and says he’s not a spoof. He just stomps his feet a lot and says he’s not DougJ. But he never denies being a spoofer in the spirit of DougJ.

  196. 196
    Celcus says:

    Late to the party…but

    As nearly any resident of New Orleans knows:
    OVERTOPPING OF THE LEVEE SYSTEM IS POTENTIALLY WORSE THAN A BREACH

    The worse case scenario (yes, a lot worse than what actually happened) is an overtopped levee system, known as “filling the bowl”. It would have flooded 100% of the city of New Orleans, not just 80%, up to the the 25′ height of the Mississippi River levees. The French Quarter, which remained dry, could have seen over 20′ of flood water. It would have also flooded all of the adjacent Jefferson Parish suburbs to up to 30′ depths. The overtopping scenerio is unofficially know as KYAG (kiss your ass goodbye). Had Katrina hit to the west of the city, rather than the east this scenerio could well had taken place. THAT was the worst case, not the breaches. Breaches allow water in and out again, not so in overtopping. In fact some of the breached levees actually mitigated the flooding during Katrina; the industrial canal breaches allowed flood water to flow out of the city into the lower water level of the Mississippi.

    You can read more about the different hurricane projections here.
    http://www.nola.com/hurricane/.....one_1.html

    The whole series is here:
    http://www.nola.com/hurricane/?/washingaway/

  197. 197
    Tim F. says:

    Why, FEMA’s 2500 employees, of course.

    Bzzt. Does FEMA have 2500 licensed bus drivers? In case you were wondering the answer is no. Let’s imagine that Nagin asked 2500 unlicensed drivers to transport the city of New Orleans – where exactly? – and one of those buses t-boned a church group and blew up. Nagin would be criminally liable for each blown-up citizen. Not to mention the lawsuits, which I imagine would pretty much never end.

    Nagin already had every licensed driver transporting people to the Superdome. That’s a trip that a bus can make four or five times in a day and he got far from everybody. Now imagine the same number of drivers heading to, say, Houston. That’s not a trip that a driver can make very many times. Considering the number of people to move, folks would basically have to figure out which member of their family to save while the rest fend for themselves on foot.

    In fact FEMA did have a contract with a busing company to take care of just such a scenario. An unqualified and inexperienced company that landed its contract through political connections.

    So in fact there is a busing scandal. It points right back to FEMA.

  198. 198
    Otto Man says:

    Could any of the people here who are insisting that the poor federal government didn’t have the manpower or the resources to handle a hurricane disaster like Katrina please explain how those same forces did just fine when four hurricanes hit Florida in 2004?

    They had more than enough supplies preposition then, and more than enough people on the ground. Christ, President Bush went there personally to hand out water bottles to evacuees. It seems the administration can be perfectly competent when the disaster strikes a battleground state in an election year.

    I guess the people in this government can only do their jobs right if their jobs are on the line?

  199. 199
    ppGaz says:

    Note that GOP4Me never comes out and says he’s not a spoof.

    Neither did DougJ at first. Who gives a fig?

    You have John Cole here who loves to troll the lefties on a regular basis. The man is at least as liberal as I am if not more so, on every social issue that I’ve seen go by here. So, is the whole blog a spoof? Have you seen the name of the blog? This is not exactly the Congressional Record here.

  200. 200
    Steve says:

    Well, hey, before the blog turns into 10% spoofers and 90% liberals irately knocking down everything the spoofers say assuming that it’s for real, I thought I should say something.

  201. 201
    ppGaz says:

    Steve, you can divine my email address from the first text you see on my url.

    Send me email please.

  202. 202
  203. 203
    Blue Shark says:

    …Dear John;

    …I used to think this was a middle-right blog…after reading all the comments on this thread…I’de have to say…You have been invaded by Leftist Radicals who obviously Hate America.

    …And by virtue of that fact, you are now a threat to national security…look for that IRS audit any day now.

  204. 204
    Andrew says:

    So in fact there is a busing scandal. It points right back to FEMA.

    But that’s FEMA’s fault, not George W. Bush’s fault. Your liberal hatred of the president is quite clear.

    Now, on to reality:

    In fact some of the breached levees actually mitigated the flooding during Katrina; the industrial canal breaches allowed flood water to flow out of the city into the lower water level of the Mississippi.

    This isn’t true at all. The Mississippi is much higher than the canals off the lake. Anyone who has been to NO has walked UP to the river and looked down on the french quarter and the rest of town. The ACoE maintains those levees, IIRC, whereas the breached levees were state projects.

    However, you larger point can be correct. In some flooded areas after the floods, levees were intentionally breached to drain flood waters.

  205. 205
    Celcus says:

    Indeed during the spring one can look up at the ships, but in August the river is much lower. The level of the river varies, of course, throughout the year, being highest in the spring due to northern snow melt. The river levees protect up to a 20′ stage, but Lake Pontchartrain is roughly at sea level under normal conditions.

    The storm surge generated by Katrina changed all of this. I can’t find the exact level of lake Pontchartrain at the time of the breach but the 17th street canal flood wall/levee (which is one of the one’s that failed) was slightly more than 9′ above sea level. It was not overtopped, and the water did not get within a foot top. So water coming in was at least 6-7′ above sea level at the maximum. NOAA lists the river stage on August 24 at 2.5 feet. Storm surge was not driven up the Mississippi, due to its direction and the eye remaining to the east of the city.

    I can’t locate the like to the Times-Picayunne article, but in the maximum hight of the flood, the lake was following gravity and flowing out the industrial canal breaches to the river. It is sad, but it is suspected that a percentage of the 2000 still missing were washed out to sea this way.

    If the city had only been flooded to the level of the river far less would have been inundated

  206. 206
    Davebo says:

    I realize PPGaz just crapped his pants in anger at that, and Slide is about to call me names, but if Bush should have prepared for absolute worst case scenario for mere bad weather, shouldn’t all potential emergencies be prepared for with the same urgency?

    Here’s an idea!

    Simulated Telephone Call…

    Yesser, he’s on the line.

    Hey Jim it’s Dick. How ya doin?

    Fine Sir. Enjoyed you out at the ranch. All Bill’s gonna be fine don’t worry.

    Well listen Jim, I’m sure you’ve heard of that mere bad weather they’re having down in the Gulf. You guys have lots of platforms and semisub rigs down there, don’t ya?

    Yesir we do.

    Well, what’s your plan? About this mere bad weather and all?

    You kiddin? We bailed!

  207. 207
    Al Maviva says:

    I’m not shocked you have trouble reading things longer than a sentence or two, ppGaz. Your admission makes a lot of sense, now that I think about it.

    For everybody else, since we lost ppGaz after the first comma, NBC did a feature on Mike Brown and the videos tonight. Anybody catch it? The meteorologist in the videos, Mayfield, clarified today that they anticipated minor flooding resulting from overtopped levees, and that nobody seriously considered the possibility of breeched levees. NBC’s interest seemed to be playing “gotcha” on Mike Brown who just last week hammered Bush for not having a clue. Brown was captured on one of the videos praising Bush for being engaged and asking the right questions about the levees, etc.

  208. 208
    Steve says:

    That’s an awesome gotcha. I mean, I would totally expect to see the head of FEMA slamming the President on videotape, telling everyone “The Chimp is on vacation, we’re all on our own!!!” I can’t imagine any scenario in which someone would be more likely to be honest and candid than when they’re asked about their boss’s job performance while on camera.

  209. 209
    ppGaz says:

    I’m not shocked you have trouble reading things longer than a sentence or two

    A sentence or two?

    Irony is dead.

  210. 210
    Ancient Purple says:

    A sentence or two?

    Shorter Al Maviva (reduced from 19 paragraphs): I am always right.

  211. 211
    DougJ says:

    Gore and Kerry would have been worse.

    Imagine if Osama had been in power. He could have launched an attack against us while we were still reeling from Katrina. It’s terrifying to think about. Imagine a squadron of Al Qaeda fighters — Sean Penn, Al Gore, Aaron Broussard — boating around the gulf coast, detonating suitcase nukes. That’s what we would have faced if Kerry had been elected.

  212. 212
    Al Maviva says:

    Ancient Purple, nice dodge. I got hammered above for citing the transcripts and pointing out that there is a distinction between predictions of water overtopping the levees leading to mild flooding, and levee breaches. When the meteorologist appearing on the video made the same point, I thought it was fair game to raise it again. I’m not always right; in fact, I’m frequently wrong if I don’t take the time to closely read something and research questionable issues raised in it. But I am right on that point. Cheers.

  213. 213
    LITBMueller says:

    But asked about the levees by Joe Hagin, the White House deputy chief of staff, Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco of Louisiana said, “We have not breached the levee at this point in time.” She said “that could change” and noted that the floodwaters in some areas in and around New Orleans were 8 to 10 feet deep. Later that night, FEMA notified the White House that the levees had been breached.

    Huh. Guess SOMEBODY anticipated it!

  214. 214
    demimondian says:

    I got hammered above for citing the transcripts and pointing out that there is a distinction between predictions of water overtopping the levees leading to mild flooding, and levee breaches. When the meteorologist appearing on the video made the same point, I thought it was fair game to raise it again.

    Sorry, but you’re still wrong about this. As I said here, for the levees in question, there was no difference. The ACoE had already proven that during the Pam exercises. The problem was exacerbated by the fact that the seawalls weren’t built to spec but the experts on that topic had already spoken. There was no reason for Mayfield to know that, but the people in the room who did have a reason to know did act as if the levees were going to fail.

  215. 215
    demimondian says:

    Hey, John, what’s with editing out links? “Here” should read “here”

  216. 216
    chefrad says:

    “That’s what we would have faced if Kerry had been elected.”

    The Baldwin brothers, crossing the border illegally, dressed as the Three Amigos!

  217. 217
    Dodd says:

    Sorry, but you’re still wrong about this. As I said here, for the levees in question, there was no difference. The ACoE had already proven that during the Pam exercises. The problem was exacerbated by the fact that the seawalls weren’t built to spec but the experts on that topic had already spoken. There was no reason for Mayfield to know that, but the people in the room who did have a reason to know did act as if the levees were going to fail.

    Um, no:

    Fictional hurricanes “Zebra” and “Pam,” were used to train for the event of a New Orleans hurricane strike, and neither exercise anticipated levee failure. According to Greg Breerwood, deputy district engineer for project management for the Army Corps of Engineers: We knew if it was going to be a Category 5, some levees and some flood walls would be overtopped,” he said. “We never did think they would actually be breached.” [Internal link omitted.]

    Even the AP has now had to admit it got the story wrong:

    Clarification: Katrina-Video story
    ASSOCIATED PRESSWASHINGTON (AP) _ In a March 1 story, The Associated Press reported that federal disaster officials warned President Bush and his homeland security chief before Hurricane Katrina struck that the storm could breach levees in New Orleans, citing confidential video footage of an Aug. 28 briefing among U.S. officials. The Army Corps of Engineers considers a breach a hole developing in a levee rather than an overrun. The story should have made clear that Bush was warned about floodwaters overrunning the levees, rather than the levees breaking. The day before the storm hit, Bush was told there were grave concerns that the levees could be overrun. It wasn’t until the next morning, as the storm was hitting, that Michael Brown, then head of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, said Bush had inquired about reports of breaches. Bush did not participate in that briefing.

  218. 218
    Dodd says:

    So, given that the AP has corrected their story, rendering the post incorrect, can we expect an update making note of the correction?

  219. 219
    moflicky says:

    Lines and LITBm,

    I’ve never heard anyone say, ANYWHERE, that a topping of the levees would cause 20 feet of flooding.

    for one thing, 20 feet is impossible in new orleans, and even with the breaches, with nothing to hold back water, the highest flood depth was around 12 feet.

    so you must have pulled that number out of your ass.

    If the levees hadn’t breached, how long do you think it would have taken to pump out the floodwaters resulting from a topping? a few days? probably less?

    On the other hand, a hole in several levee locations is a very different thing – the water continuously poored in for a couple weeks. WEEKS! not hours – which would have occured from a cat-5 storm surge topping the levees. In this scenario, pumping water out was fruitless, with water flowing in faster than a thousand pumps could drain it.

    is this so freaking hard to understand? are you all this daft? To say that ‘topping’ and ‘breaching’ are the same thing is simply intellectual dishonesty – it doesn’t fit your idea of what happened, so you dismiss it out of hand.

    As to the local vs. federal response, ask Florida how much immediate help they get from FEMA. Two years ago, they got hit with 3 major hurricanes within a month or two, and you never heard them complain about the federal response.

    In conclusion, there’s plenty to criticize about the response, local, state AND federal. But we are talking about a disaster of unprecedented proportions, and you point at Bush as being the sole man responsible.

    He’s not a disaster expert for god’s sake, he’s a politician.

    I also think it’s pretty funny for all the lefties who criticized every word, deed, email, etc. from Brownie a few months ago are now rallying behind him now that he’s willing to point his finger at the one true source of evil in the world.

    it boggles the mind.

  220. 220
    demimondian says:

    I’ve never heard anyone say, ANYWHERE, that a topping of the levees would cause 20 feet of flooding.

    So, moflicky, you don’t read, say National Geographic? Money quote:

    The storm hit Breton Sound with the fury of a nuclear warhead, pushing a deadly storm surge into Lake Pontchartrain. The water crept to the top of the massive berm that holds back the lake and then spilled over. Nearly 80 percent of New Orleans lies below sea level—more than eight feet below in places—so the water poured in. A liquid brown wall washed over the brick ranch homes of Gentilly, over the clapboard houses of the Ninth Ward, over the white-columned porches of the Garden District, until it raced through the bars and strip joints on Bourbon Street like the pale rider of the Apocalypse. As it reached 25 feet (eight meters) over parts of the city, people climbed onto roofs to escape it.

    That’s from the 2004 Hurricane Pam exercises, dude — you know, the ones that the ACoE ran?

    That dog won’t hunt. In fact, none of your do[d]g[e]s are going to hunt: the evidence was there, it was well understood, and, boy howdy, those da?ned reality-based types keep being right.

  221. 221
    moflicky says:

    That dog won’t hunt.

    then why, pray tell, didn’t we see 25 foot flooding when the water flowed for weeks?

  222. 222
    Celcus says:

    Because the eye of the storm passed to the east of the city.

    The “filling the bowl” scenario involves a cat 5 on a track that approximately follows the Mississippi from the mouth and move to the west of the city. This brings storm surge up the river, and essentially overtops the Lake Pontchartrain levees dumping it into the “bowl” of New Orleans, and the Neighboring Jefferson Parish. Katrina’s storm surge was large enough to have done this, had the track been different. The levees intact, the water cannot drain out when the storm surge recedes, leaving the bowl full.

    Here is the theory, again:
    http://www.nola.com/hurricane/.....one_1.html

    By Aug. 28th it was clear it would not track up the mouth of the river, likely avoiding the doomsday scenario, but the prediction was hardly encouraging:

    http://www.nola.com/search/ind.....0.xml?nola

  223. 223
    Ben Thurdunthat says:

    [quote]that which is not acknowledged….[/quote]

    ….will eventually bite you in the @$$.

    I think some old engineer who’d attended one of those many scenario-classes that “Civil Defense” trainers put on might’ve said that about the levees in New Orleans……

    Can anyone please find and post some stuff showing that the Democratic leaders of that fine city EVER asked for any money to reinforce those levees in all the years they stood? Or that their colleagues in the so-much-more-enlightened Northeast made any gestures of concern?

    Can anyone please explain why NO college or university Civil Engineering class ever reported what many professors should have known?

    Would it perhaps be instructive to do a search of theses and papers and find how many demonstrate full knowledge of the inevitable collapse of the levees, going back how many years?

    And HOW did one of Howard Dean’s OWN, remain silent?

    Click here and weep, my lefties, because this guy was campaigning for Dean in New Hampshire:

    http://www.dps.state.vt.us/vem/press_091505.htm

  224. 224
    moflicky says:

    By Aug. 28th it was clear it would not track up the mouth of the river, likely avoiding the doomsday scenario, but the prediction was hardly encouraging:

    yes, by then it was clear. thus, “no one anticipated the breach of the levees.

    thanks for playing.

  225. 225
    Celcus says:

    Okay, Clearly you made your case. The word “breach” not having been uttered there was no chance of flooding, or anything that might require any sort of help, mere overtopping being such a minor threat…

    Except from the Aug 28th Times-Picayunne article: “A computer model run by the LSU Hurricane Center late Saturday confirmed that. It indicated the metropolitan area was poised to see a repeat of Betsy’s flooding, or worse, with storm surge of as much as 16 feet moving up the Mississippi River-Gulf Outlet and topping levees in Chalmette and eastern New Orleans, and pushing water into the 9th Ward and parts of Mid-City. High water flowing from Lake Pontchartrain through St. Charles Parish also would flood over levees into Kenner, according to the model.”

    Mid-City is within the city proper, the “bowl” below sea level. But no one could have anticipated flooding of the city proper.

    But then, overtopping often results in breaching. From the congressional report:

    “According to preliminary information from NSF, ASCE, and LSU, most of the levees and floodwall breaches on the east side of New Orleans were caused by overtopping, as the storm surge rose over the tops of the levees and/or their floodwalls and produced erosion that subsequently led to breaches…The overtopping eroded the backside of the canals, scoured out the foundations, and led to their collapse and thus major flooding of adjacent neighborhoods.”

    I suppose, this could not of been anticipated either. But wait…

    From the Times-Picayune series: “Unlike Bangladesh, New Orleans has hurricane levees that create a bowl with the bottom dipping lower than the bottom of Lake Pontchartrain. Though providing protection from weaker storms, the levees also would trap any water that gets inside — by breach, overtopping or torrential downpour — in a catastrophic storm.”

    It continues to describe overtopping: “All of a sudden you’ll start seeing flowing water. It’ll look like a weir, water just pouring over the top,” Suhayda said. The water will flood the lakefront, filling up low-lying areas first, and continue its march south toward the river. There would be no stopping or slowing it; pumping systems would be overwhelmed and submerged in a matter of hours.” Sounds a lot like what happened, and no breach was involved. Did anybody anticipated that?

    But there’s more: “Another scenario is that some part of the levee would fail,’ Suhayda said. ‘It’s not something that’s expected. But erosion occurs, and as levees broke, the break will get wider and wider. The water will flow through the city and stop only when it reaches the next higher thing.” Not something that is expected but certainly considered possible.

    I suppose Bush and FEMA were at a disadvantage without access to a local paper, issue of National Geographic, or participating in the Hurricane Pam exercises. I would not be surprised that the President hadn’t anticipated a lot of things, but clearly a lot of people saw the makings of a disaster with or without the word “breach” being mentioned or even needing to occur, for that matter.

    In the warning for 1011 AM CDT Sun, August 28, 2005 issued by the the National Weather Service: “Devastating damage expected…Most of the area will be uninhabitable for weeks…perhaps longer. At least one half of well constructed homes will have roof and wall failure. All gabled roofs will fail…leaving those homes severely damaged or destroyed…Power outages will last for weeks…as most power poles will be down and transformers destroyed. Water shortages will make human suffering incredible by modern standards.”

    I guess people were to busy talking about “overtopping” to anticipate that…

  226. 226
    Ben Thurdunthat says:

    Ya know, this question of the word “breach” reminds me an awwwwwfulllll lot of the problem ol’ Billy boy had with the word “sex”….

    Obviously ONE of these two incidents of failures of presidential vocaublary skills merits a special prosecutor, but which one?

    I mean, if ol’ Billy Boy’s momma never Tole him that was sex, then of course he didn’t know what it was…

    and so, to be fair, if no one ever TOLE Bubba Dubya that the people yellin about “breach” meant flood, well hit shore caint be ol Dubya’s fault….

    c’mon, guys, give the Prez a break…. he’s doin’ the bess he can!

  227. 227
    Ben Thurdunthat says:

    Howard Dean et al want the white house, right?

    They just gave an award to one of Howard Dean’s buddies, James Matteau, who has been an authority for years on exactly the kinds of civil engineering issues that characterized the New Orleans problem, right?

    The Democrats are desperate to save us all from the Republicans, right?

    And they are so SURE they know what to do, right?

    THEN WHY HAVE THE KERRIES AND DEANS OF THE DEMS NOT UNVEILED THEIR OWN EXPERTS?

    I have it on VERY GOOD authority that James Matteau has a sister who was at UMass in 1971-1972 and who was a reporter for The Daily Collegian who went down to Washington WITH the VVAW in the marches of 1972, and that she has had her family destroyed by continuous harassment from the super-fringe left for writing reports critical of the actual polticis of the movement, and I also have it on good authority that she was married to a member of the VVAW at the time, but was one of the first feminists to keep her own last name.

    So her byline is there, in those 1972 copies of The Daily Collegian.

    I also have it on very good authority that James Matteau’s nephew is one of the men in this news story and that this case involved evidence that was suppressed because of family mob ties:

    http://query.nytimes.com/gst/f.....A965948260

    I have it on very good authority that the bribe money that was necessary to achieve the suppression had more to do with the mob than with James Matteau’s family, but that his sister’s participation in the VVAW organization along with her budding career as an artist made her the most likely candidate to participate in fraudulent art shows in order to move that money along with other bribes necessary to keep business-as-usual out of site over in Berkshire County.

    I have it on good authority that Matteau’s sister, mother of one of the accused killers, not the VVAW reporter, had turned first to her family lawyer, Andrea Nuciforo Sr, when her son was arrested and he of course immediately brought in lawyers from more eastward than Berkshire County. Andrea Nuciforo Jr is now the senator from that end of Massachusetts who is pushing a bill in the legislature last June to make the neighborhood in which the bribe-moving art shows operated into a state recognized “art zone” that will somehow be Federally acknowledged as a “no tax” zone for individuals designated as artists, and that it will be administered by Daniel O’Connell, the “Culture Commissioner” who was responsible for the art shows in that district.

    Somehow, this bill is supposed to over-ride even Federal IRS authorities to collect income taxes on personal income up to $100,000 oer year per artist.

    http://www.nuciforo.com/newsroom.php3?bio=272

    I have it on good authority that Matteau’s sister, the former VVAW reporter, had owned The South East Street Studio in Holyoke that made silk-screen posters for Tom Rush among other musicians in Northampton, including Arlo Guthrie and The Rolling Thunder Review, and that after closing that studio she worked in other silk-screen companies and she was a color-matcher at Berkshire Handscreened Wallpapers in Pittsfield in 1992 when Hillary Clinton bought wallpaper for the White House and that she worked on that specific job and was reprimanded for trying to stop a printing error in one of the last runs that ruined the paper, making the whole job and the $200,000 that the Democrats had given that company “disappear”.

    I have it on good authority that the Vermont FBI is suppressing evidence that James Matteau’s position as an envrionmental official is heavily buttressed by his willingness to run interference in family matters, and that in fact the Lenox 7 case (dubbed so by the Press in conscious allusion to the Chicago 7) was entangled with the Lenox High School teacher-rape case in which a Lenox High gym Giardini raped 5 girls, including a member of the Matteau family, the sister of Joseph Burke, one of the accused Lenox 7, and that the art show set up to run the bribes was connected through the brand-new Women’s Services Center that moved the money in a group art show in which Matteau’s VVAW sister was supposed to participate but which she backed out of, for reasons of conscience, not recognizing that her own family had mob ties and that her private revulsion at the bizarre corruption in the Women’s Services Center had anything at all to do with the Wellesleyan maoist-feminists that she and other feminists had ignored.

    Most researchers into this stuff look at philosophies and don’t make criminal connections with hard core bribes etc, and most investigators of white collar crime like money laundering don’t look closely at political philosophies and notice when they conveniently reinforce each other in suppressing awareness.

    The politics aroung Kerry and Sen Clinton always were extreme fringe left, but their power comes from the silent moderates, especially those who, like James Matteau, stand by and profit in a secure career that was founded on his full co-operation with the Massachusetts mob, even from his position just over the line in Vermont.

  228. 228
    Ben Thurdunthat says:

    What does all of the above have to do with Hurricane Katrina? Look up some of the fringier writings in the left, and you will find that certain cults have often considered natural disasters to be an opportunity to be exploited, and if you look at the nexus of the Green movements with the extreme left Dems you will see that they were in fact, just waiting for a Katrina to happen.

    Bush et al is to blame for playing the role of buffoon, because in fact the ball never did leave the Democrats’ hands, and a close look at all of this will prove the corruption that in itself has absolutely NOTHING to do with equality and respect for alternative sexualities, concenn for the planet, or realistic civil response in a disaster.

    Bush is a buffoon, but what are the Democratic leaders? How much further will this story go if these activities by Democrat officials remain unexamined and unprosecuted?

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