Slow Learners

And the left once again is going to overplay their hand:

Boozehound Cheney was drinking all day. He went hunting without a license and shot an old man in the face. Wouldn’t talk to Johnny Law until he sobered up. Got the sheriff and the Texas Parks and Wildlife folks to cover for him, hid from the public for four days then finally ran to the warm embrace of Fox News. Even Jack Cafferty says that’s kinda like Bonnie interviewing Clyde.

For those counting, that is lawyer Jane Hamsher, in just a few sentence, with a smear, a factless assertion, a misrepresentation of the ‘stamp’ Cheney didn’t have, followed by yet another wild assertion. They have Cheney in a possibly compromising position, yet are going to blow it because of their overeagerness and their hate. Again.

Will these people ever learn? I want to know what happened, and I have no problem with people speculating, but you don’t get to go make shit up, as has been done here.

*** Update ***

Jane is not a lawyer- Reddhedd is.






388 replies
  1. 1
    Otto Man says:

    To state such a claim flatly is, I agree, wrong.

    But there’s a lot of circumstantial evidence that makes it seem likely.

    This is Dick Cheney, a man who was thrown out of Yale for drinking too much and subsequently got not one, but two DUIs. The initial story was that he hadn’t had a drink, and then they said there was a cocktail after and a beer before. To me, that sounds like a typical DUI defense slowly unraveling — “I haven’t had a drink, OK, I had one with lunch, OK, I had several…”

    And downing the cocktail right after the accident reminds me of the advice a lawyer friend gave me if I were ever in an accident with even one beer in me — go immediately to a bar, order a stiff drink, and that way anything the breathalizer picks up can be dismissed as coming from the post-accident drink.

    And why else wait until the next morning to allow law enforcement to speak with him? They chased away a deputy and wouldn’t let the cops in until the next morning. The only answer that makes sense is that Dick needed to sober up.

    All speculation, sure. But remember what the solemn and batshit crazy Peggy Noonan said about the rumors that Bill Clinton let Elian Gonzalez go back to his father in Cuba because Castro was blackmailing him: “Is it irresponsible to speculate? No, it would be irresponsible not to.”

  2. 2
    Doctor Gonzo says:

    Nobody is saying anything about Cheney that Republicans haven’t said about Ted Kennedy.

  3. 3
    ChristieS says:

    I’m sick of this story anyway. I wish it would just be dropped. So Cheney had an accident with a weapon. Well, Darth IS human, after all. Big deal. Yes, he should have come out and given the story immediately. Then it would’ve been a tempest in a teapot, a one-day wonder. Instead, he got all tight-lipped, as usual, and it blew up in his face (pun intended).

    Great, wonderful…people, get a clue here…this is NOT the story of the year. I’ve got bigger things to worry about than whether the Dick can shoot straight (h/t Jay Leno)or not.

    I hear people saying that this behavior is “typical of the Bush White House behavior” and that “this is symptomatic of what is wrong with our leadership.” Well, that may well be, but right now our country has BIGGER ISSUES!!

    Whether this behavior is just another example of incompetence or criminal negligence, nothing to do with this story is going to fix the crap in the ME. Nothing in this story is going to fix what’s wrong in our budget. Nothing in this story is going to rebuild our damaged nation and its destroyed cities.

    People, GET OVER THIS SHIT, please. BTW, I’ve been a card carrying Democrat for 22 years. I am the LAST person to carry water for this incompetent administration, so please, no accusations of being an enabler or a Bush apologist.

  4. 4
    Marcus Wellby says:

    All speculation, sure. But remember what the solemn and batshit crazy Peggy Noonan said about the rumors that Bill Clinton let Elian Gonzalez go back to his father in Cuba because Castro was blackmailing him: “Is it irresponsible to speculate? No, it would be irresponsible not to.”

    See, that is just comparing apples to oranges. Republicans are apples, and Democrats are oranges. Republicans are apples because they make up apples pie, and nothing is more American than apple pie, thus expecting the same rules to apply to Republicans is being critical of apples. Being critical of apples means you don’t like apple pie. Not liking apple pie means you hate America and want Saddam to be president. See???? Why don’t you get it??????

  5. 5
    Catsy says:

    Yawn. I can play this game too. I can cite links to mouth breathers at Free Republic or Redstate witlessly defending Cheney’s negligent handling of his weapon, and say something like: “Look! The right is full of idiots willing to defend anything, even irresponsible violations of gun safety!”

    All it will prove, of course, is that I can find someone to link to to support my narrative. Do /you/ generally enjoy being smeared whenever Coulter opens her mouth?

  6. 6
    Blue Neposnet says:

    That is exactly why I dind’t vote for Jane Hamsher when she was running for Democratic Party Spokeswoman. She always does shit like this.

    I want to know what happened, and I have no prob lem with people speculating, but you don’t get to go make shit up, as has been done here.

  7. 7
    ppGaz says:

    Right, right. The GOP and this administration never make shit up. They should not tolerate having their opposition make shit up. If there’s one thing we won’t stand for in Washington, or for that matter, in the blogoramasphere, it’s making shit up.

    —//

    Meanwhile, back at RealityRanch, which is down the road from where the lawyer formerly known as Old Birdshot-Head hangs out, we just have to admit that Dick Cheney, the coldly calculating and throat-cutting politician of all time, just “goofed” by letting this hunting story get away from him. Surely, he had nothing at all that he wanted to conceal from the public or the authorities. Everything he says, and does, is straight-shootin’ (no pun, please) and can be taken at face value. I mean, if there’s ONE THING we know about this man and his crew, it’s that they wouldn’t tinker with the facts or tell us something that wasn’t entirely true.

    And there you have it …. the story from here, Balloon-Juice, the closest thing to reality-based thought and opinion you can find anywhere.

    We report, you deride!

    Back to you in the studio, John.

  8. 8
    JoeTx says:

    ChristieS, I pretty much have to agree with you on that. Yes, he handled it badly and because of that, it looks like a coverup, BUT there are SO MANY OTHER scandals that DESERVE the spotlight over this one. While this “scandal” may affect the life of one person, there are OTHER scandals that affect the lives and well being of millions of (non-rich) Americans and foreigners.

    This is just another one of those “we are going to create the reality that you’ll report on” cases, while they continue to trash our constitution and get away with billions of dollars of hand-outs to major corporate donors.

  9. 9
    Steve says:

    Yeah, right, Jane Hamsher is going to cost Democrats the 2006 election. Rush can spread rumors about the murder of Vince Foster all day, but if a left-wing blogger exaggerates the amount of alcohol Cheney is known to have consumed, well then, that’s certain to hurt the Democrats!

    Or, if you want to compare oranges to oranges, I can make a list of right-wing bloggers who said charming things like this during the 2004 campaign:

    Rope. Tree. Justice. The only three things that Qerry deserves for his “service”.

    I think the one overplaying his hand here is John Cole. The only appropriate tag for this post is “Blogospheric Navel-Gazing,” and even then, this is pretty much a throwaway.

  10. 10
    John Cole says:

    That is exactly why I dind’t vote for Jane Hamsher when she was running for Democratic Party Spokeswoman. She always does shit like this.

    Just wait, Blue. It is only a matter of time before Dean pipes up, and Pete Stark screams something from the floor of the house and so on.

    Just wait.

  11. 11
    Lines says:

    ChristieS, the story is the lies. Verifiable, seemingly unneeded lying. Why? Why lie, day after day when you don’t have to? Is it a modus operande issue or is it because there is something for them to hide all the time?

    And to drag Armstrong through the muck, like little Scottie did, to swiftboat Whittington, and everything else, it makes no sense!

    Wookies on Endor, you must acquit.

  12. 12
    Davebo says:

    Geez man, the dude was hunting illegally! Calling it “just a stamp” merely points out the fact that you are obviously ignorant about how one goes about hunting or fishing legally versus illegally.

  13. 13
    my cat says:

    OK I’m waiting. When (if) it happens maybe you will have a point. Hasn’t happened yet, no point.

  14. 14
    Blue Neposnet says:

    Dammit I hit submit instead of preview…

    I want to know what happened, and I have no problem with people speculating, but you don’t get to go make shit up, as has been done here.

    C’mon John, if you want to know what happened you shouldn’t be reading a liberal blog to find out.

    I suggest you create a new category called ‘Partisan Blogger Stupidity’. It would be more precise than ‘[Democratic or Republican] stupidity’. By way of example, the next time Michelle Malkin writes a story about Hailey Whaterverhernameis wanting to live you can file that under ‘Partisan Blogger Stupidity’ instead of ‘Republican Stupidity’.

  15. 15
    John Cole says:

    Yeah, right, Jane Hamsher is going to cost Democrats the 2006 election.

    Another contender for straw man of the year.

    Unless you can show me where I said that.

  16. 16
    ChristieS says:

    JoeTX, exactly.

    I don’t know, maybe the nation has leeched onto this story simply because we’re on scandal overload. I mean, this one’s a no-brainer. It doesn’t take any kind of thought to run wild with this story. Apologist and Attackers abound. Heh…oh, looky…I made an alliteration. :D

    Seriously, though. We’ve got way more important stuff to worry and fight about. This petty bs needs to be backburnered while more important stories get the airtime and brain time they need to be resolved.

  17. 17
    Mr Furious says:

    You’re right, John. One snippet of text from one blog is indicitive of a massive tactical blunder by the entire left wing—we are completely screwed now.

    I’m glad, I can forget all about the next two elections, quit my browser and get some shit done at work now.

  18. 18
    John Cole says:

    I can cite links to mouth breathers at Free Republic or Redstate witlessly defending

    Why bother? You can stay here and watch people witlessly defend Jane Hamsher and witlessly put words into my mouth.

  19. 19
    Davebo says:

    Just wait, Blue. It is only a matter of time before Dean pipes up, and Pete Stark screams something from the floor of the house and so on.

    Or at a minimum Cindy Sheehan. We can dream eh?

  20. 20
    emily says:

    It’s interesting. John puts up a quote from a Democrat making unsubstantiated accusations against Cheney and various commenters start saying, “Yes, yes that’s bad. But the Republicans do the same things and worse.”

    That both sides engage in this sort of thing seems pretty clear. It’s as bad when Democrats do it as when Republicans do it, too. John’s post makes me wonder if (and if so, why) Democrats seem to have these kinds of statements rebound to reflect poorly on themselves while Republicans make them stick.

    Is it just that the dart aimed at one’s own camp is always felt? Is this incident likely to have a longer, more significant impact on Cheney’s career than Ted Kennedy’s accident at Chapaquidick?

  21. 21
    Blue Neposnet says:

    It is only a matter of time before Dean pipes up, and Pete Stark screams something from the floor of the house and so on.

    So then jump all over them when they do. I have no problem with that. If Dean is dumb enough to say something like that he deserves to have his feet held to the fire. But until they do say something like Jane did, you can’t assume they will.

  22. 22
    Davebo says:

    Geez John, you’re all over Hamsher aren’t you?

    Odd you never get all worked up when your buddy Jeff G. makes idiotic remarks. Or your boss Roger S. for that matter.

  23. 23
    Mr Furious says:

    The right heading for this post is “Darrell Impersonation”

    Take one comment from one person and blow it up into representing some over-arching strategy defining everything to your left.

    Just skip right to “the left is hoping WEhittinton dies, so Cheney gets charged with manslaughter.”

    I know it’s been a Cheney-like 36 hours since you posted, and you’re likely just trying to kick-start things, but come on.

  24. 24
    ChristieS says:

    Lines, I understand that the story is the lies. And it *is* symtomatic of their standard behavior. I *do* understand that. However, on my meter, this one is WAY down on the list of the whoppers we need to be excoriating.

  25. 25
    John Cole says:

    Is this incident likely to have a longer, more significant impact on Cheney’s career than Ted Kennedy’s accident at Chapaquidick?

    Ted Kennedy WAS drunk, drove off a bridge, and left a girl to drown while he ran nd hid from the police.

    To try to pretend that Cheney accidentally shooting a buddy and then rushing him to the hospital afterwards, but not reporting it to the MSM for 18 hours is the same thing is an overreach.

  26. 26
    ChristieS says:

    Preview is my friend…s/b sym*p*tomatic.

  27. 27
    DJAnyReason says:

    Ahem…

    Who the f–k is Jane Hamsher, and why the f–k should I care?

    Thank you

  28. 28
    John Cole says:

    Take one comment from one person and blow it up into representing some over-arching strategy defining everything to your left.

    Another strawman of the year contender. Where did I state this is some over-arching strategy?

    All I said was that you guys are going to overplay your hand again. I can see it coming. Jane’s statement is but the beginning.

  29. 29
    Steve says:

    Another contender for straw man of the year.

    Unless you can show me where I said that.

    We’re going to have to declare a moratorium on the word “strawman” soon, since it will lose its meaning if it gets tossed around every time someone exaggerates for effect. My point is simply that, no matter what the fallout from this story is, Jane Hamsher’s hyperbole will have zero effect on the final outcome.

    My larger point is that right-wing bloggers go well beyond this level of rhetoric on a regular basis, and yet, somehow the requirement that everyone must be polite for your side to win elections only applies to Democrats.

  30. 30
    Davebo says:

    You know what John.

    You’re right. And Hamsher is an idiot.

    She didn’t even mention the fact that it wasn’t Cheney’s fault but really the victims fault.

    And she hasn’t pointed out that just about every hunter has been “peppered” before (though it appears few end up in intensive care as a result).

    It would seem obvious that the left is over reacting and the right is handling this situation with the dignity it deserves.

    In John’s bizzaro world at least….

  31. 31
    Barbar says:

    The Vice President shot a guy in the chest, probably after having a few beers. Sorry, but it will be hard for the Dems to overplay their hand on this one.

    Irresponsible comments are irresponsible comments, but people accusing John Kerry of hurting himself in Vietnam to get a Purple Heart didn’t “overplay their hand” did they?

  32. 32
    Don Surber says:

    John, you got it. Two reasons I am no longer a Democrat:
    1. I live in West Virginia
    2. The party nationally is run by fools
    Pirates gonna be any good this year?

  33. 33
    John Cole says:

    It would seem obvious that the left is over reacting and the right is handling this situation with the dignity it deserves.

    Do you even try to make your comments scan from post to post? I think the administration’s handling of this has been ATROCIOUS, which was sort of the point of this post.

    CHENEY shot a man in the face hunting, may have been drunk, may have avoided the police for 18 hours to cover that up, and you guys are going to come out the political losers because you are going to overplay your hand and make wild overstatements. Jane’s was just an example of what will soon be coming.

    And for that, you all are flaming me.

  34. 34
    Marcus Wellby says:

    My larger point is that right-wing bloggers go well beyond this level of rhetoric on a regular basis, and yet, somehow the requirement that everyone must be polite for your side to win elections only applies to Democrats.

    I will cut John some slack as he’s called bullshit on the right in the past. However, I will note that I think he is quicker to call BS on the dems because of his own partisanship — which, also could be the impression I get based on mine. Geez — who the hell knows anymore?

  35. 35
    Jorge says:

    John,
    Cheney has had two DUI’s in the past and was kicked out of college for drinking, correct? Or is not? There really is alot of BS out there and I want to make sure.

    If so –
    -person with a history of doing illegal things while drinking –
    -admits to drinking some alcohols –
    -shoots someone
    -then has the US secret service deny police access for 18 hours.

    You say you want to know what happened as much as the next guy – well, how in heck are we ever going to find out? The VP is refusing to talk and the owner of the ranch has changed her story 16 times. So, in the face of inconsistencies, stonewalling and lies you have rampant speculation. Goodness, if these guys went to MacDonalds they’d tell you they went to Wendy’s just for the sake of telling a lie.

    So, blame the super secret administration for all the rumors. When something stinks but no one tells you what’s causing the smell your imagination is going to try and fill in the gaps.

  36. 36
    Davebo says:

    I’ll make a deal with you John.

    You don’t claim I flame you until I actually do, and I’ll not comment every day for the next year about the fact that the ocean of over statements from DNC officials you predicted are as invisible as those WMD’s.

    OK?

  37. 37
    Davebo says:

    The worst part of this whole situation is that as we speak the White House is penning another 20 million dollar public relations contract to deal with the fallout.

    And we all get to pay for it.

  38. 38
    ppGaz says:

    Ted Kennedy WAS drunk, drove off a bridge, and left a girl to drown while he ran nd hid from the police.

    At the risk of derailing the thread … No. This is not likely to be what actually happened, at all.

    The excellent investigative reporter Bill Kurtis pretty much proved that there is only one solution to the case that fits all the known facts, and that is that Kennedy got out of the car before the bridge, and walked to the hotel, thus explaining why he was seen at the hotel at or shortly after the time of the accident, dry, and unperturbed. Then, next morning, when he found out about the accident, he and his buddies cooked up the story he told that day to cover up for the fact that he had let the girl drive down a dark road by herself, which they thought would be seen as more terrible than the story they made up.

    There is no way that the facts in the case can be made to fit the known timeline and observations from the night of the accident and also fit Kennedy’s story.

    So most likely, Kennedy was something of a cad, but he wasn’t in the car when it went off the bridge. However, he screwed himself to some extent when he lied about it the next day …. and has held to the lie all these years.

  39. 39
    Jorge says:

    Here is an interesting timeline from the folks at thinkprogress.

    Scripps Howard News Service, 2/13/06:

    None in the hunting party was drinking alcohol, said the owner, Katharine Armstrong. “No, zero, zippo and I don’t drink at all,” she said. “No one was drinking.”

    LA Times, 2/14/06:

    The party of 11 hunters set out in two trucks Saturday morning, driving around the mesquite-dotted property and shooting quail until about 12:30 p.m., said Anne Armstrong, co-owner of the ranch. Then they broke for a lunch of antelope, jicama salad and camp bread, washed down with Dr. Pepper.

    MSNBC, 2/14/06:

    “If someone wants to help themselves to a beer,” she said, “they may, but I did not see anyone do that,” Armstrong says. She says she was not sure if there were beers in the coolers but wasn’t ready to rule it out: “There may be a beer or two in there, but remember not everyone in the party was shooting,” she told NBC News.

    Editor and Publisher, 2/15/06:

    CNN today reports that Armstrong had told CNN she never saw Cheney or Whittington “drink at all on the day of the shooting until after the accident occurred, when the vice president fixed himself a cocktail back at the house.”

    Now, Cheney said he drank “a beer” before hunting. Fox News, 2/15/06:

    HUME: He said he had a beer at lunch and that had been many hours earlier. And it was dusk, around 5:00 p.m., when this incident happened. And he said that, you know, they had lunch out in the field, a barbecue, and he had a beer.

  40. 40
    ppGaz says:

    2. The party nationally is run by fools

    3. So, knowing that the even more foolish GOP is running the country into a ditch, and knowing that in a two party system, you either win, or you lose, I’ll sit here like a fucking ass and throw rocks and the Democrats, rather than apply my talents and efforts to making that party capable of replacing the corrupt lunatics in power now. Because, you know, the latter would be good citizenship, but this is bligging, and as we all know, blog comes before country.

    Did I miss anything?

    Don’t bother answering, I’ve seen and heard the dishonest foot-stomping and browbeating shit from you guys already, I really don’t need to hear it again.

  41. 41
    ppGaz says:

    uh, bligging = blogging

    It’s a code.

  42. 42
    Laura says:

    It doesn’t help that Katherine Armstrong lied through her teeth and insisted that nobody had drank at all that day. She is also the person who claimed to have witnessed everything, blaming Whittington for the mishap. Then later, she said she thought Cheney had heart problems when she saw the security detail running, so obviously she didn’t see what happened. Yet, this was the person entrusted to “get the facts” out to the media? When you cut a deal so that you don’t have to talk to a deputy until the next day, delay getting facts out, and then you give false information, you have no business whining when people have to speculate about what really happened.

  43. 43
    Barbar says:

    This is just in the long tradition of stuff like:

    Michael Moore at the Dem convention –> this is why the Dems lose elections.

    Dick Cheney makes multiple appearances on Rush Limbaugh’s show –> I don’t see what this has to do with anything.

  44. 44
    chopper says:

    i don’t see how jane hamsher’s statement is any proof at all that ‘the left’ is overplaying their hand on this story.

    i just see one blogger exaggerating.

    so some people are making up stuff about cheney, sh1t, the guy’s approval rating in the US is at rock bottom. in order for stuff like this to blow up in people’s faces, the guy you’re targeting has to be liked.

  45. 45

    And once again, John Cole shills for the Administration.

    Is my statement any more or less fair than John’s? We report, you decide.

  46. 46
    Steve says:

    I will cut John some slack as he’s called bullshit on the right in the past.

    It’s not that John has no ability to discern over-the-top statements from Republicans. It’s just that he never, ever suggests that any negative political consequences will flow from those statements. It’s just “hey, I condemn this,” and time to move on. The Left, apparently, is uncivil as a group, where every random statement is “emblematic” of some kind of wider sentiment, while the Right is only uncivil in isolated cases that only merit brief comment.

    What I’d like John to explain is why impolite comments only hurt the Democrats and never hurt the Republicans. It doesn’t seem to make much sense. The only thing that keeps this theory alive is that Bush won and Kerry lost, therefore all the Bush-bashing must have been bad strategy and all the Kerry-bashing must have been okay from a political standpoint. Move one more state into Kerry’s column and suddenly the conventional wisdom is completely the reverse.

  47. 47
    stickler says:

    you guys are going to come out the political losers because you are going to overplay your hand and make wild overstatements.

    Some definition of terms would be enormously helpful. Who the hell is “you guys?” Jane Hamsher? Al Gore? George Soros? Who gets to decide what “overplaying” means? Fox News? Those mouthbreathers have already tried to blame the 78 year old man, for pity’s sake. Or will it be John Cole, a man who deplores the modern GOP but still somehow manages to vote Republican no matter what stupid crap the party stands for?

    And what does “overplay your hand” mean? The Vice President shot a 78 year old man in the face on Saturday afternoon, and, from that moment to this, he’s apparently been striving to illustrate a whole chapter in the textbook How Not To Handle A Scandal.

    Cheney could have come out and tamped this story down. He didn’t. He could have owned up to it like a man. He didn’t. He is a deeply unpopular and mistrusted figure already. How are a few left-ish bloggers going to affect that one way or the other?

  48. 48
    Mr Furious says:

    I dunno, John, “the left”, “these people,” “they,” and “them.” You don’t actually say “the DNC,” but you are using Jane Hamsher as a pretty fucking big brush.

    And don’t lump me in with “you guys.” Go over to my blog, you find any of that stuff, and likewise at Otto Man’s, and many others.

    That said, Kos is treading up to the line of overplaying it, and you can make a case that he is influential.

  49. 49
    Jim Allen says:

    Oh, this is just lovely. Let’s see what we have here.

    The vice president of the United States shoots a 78-year-old man in the face, with a shotgun. This man is in the ICU for days (may still be there, haven’t checked today), and has had a “minor” heart attack (if there is such a thing as a “minor” heart attack when you’re 78 years old) because some birdshot found it’s way into his heart.

    News of this incident is held for hours. The office of the VP says nothing, leaving it to the owner of the property to contact the local newspaper. There is some controversy about what access the local police were given as part of their investigation into this shooting.

    Several days later, the VP agrees to one interview, with Brit Hume of Fox News.

    And in all this, what has John posted about? Which sci-fi crew he’d be on. How many notches he’s pulled in on his belt. And, oh, yeah, those damn lefties (or at least one that he’s managed to hunt down) are going to “overplay their hand”.

    Nice to know what you consider worth posting on John.

    Get your fucking priorities straight.

  50. 50
    jaime says:

    What’s the difference between THIS:

    CHENEY shot a man in the face hunting, may have been drunk, may have avoided the police for 18 hours to cover that up

    and THIS:

    Boozehound Cheney was drinking all day. He went hunting without a license and shot an old man in the face. Wouldn’t talk to Johnny Law until he sobered up. Got the sheriff and the Texas Parks and Wildlife folks to cover for him, hid from the public for four days then finally ran to the warm embrace of Fox News.

    Some hyperbole or humor perhaps. You’re quote up top there is considered Lefty America Hating conspiracy theory and would paint you in the wingnuttosphere as a liberal traitor. Why are you overplaying your hand, you Freedom hating commie? How dare you question the king.

  51. 51
    Kirk Spencer says:

    ChristieS (among others),

    The story is a big deal. It’s a big deal for three reasons.

    First, someone shot someone else. Fortunately the victim survived (thus far, and may it continue), but he did have to go to the hospital and there’ve been one or two scary points while there. Everywhere I’ve lived, small town and large, that’s a story. And the better known either someone is, the more story it is.

    Second, it’s a major incident involving the Vice President. It’s worth at least a note when the President falls off a Segway. I recall a time or two when Clinton dropping by a MacDonalds was a story as well. Gore, Quayle, Bush, and Mondale all had minor incidents get nationwide coverage for multiple days as well. And that leads to the third point.

    That is, the relevant importance of Pres/VP stories. Not just in national importance terms but in what I’ll call personal resonance -ie, “it could be me”. Most of us aren’t going to be fundraising at a Buddhist temple, or be invited to sleep in the Lincoln bedroom. According to statistics there’s a large number of spouses who cheat, so a stained blue dress is pretty important on our personal scale. And a lot of us do or did hunt, so shooting or getting shot by a hunting partner resonates. It ties that abstract individual “the vice president” to us in a personal way, and unfortunately for Cheney the tie is negative. (We’d have a lot more sympathy if the bullets had gone the other way. Though there’d always be those who’d then wish the bullets had been a bit more effective. But the Coulters are on both sides, unfortunately.)

    So I regret to say the story isn’t going away, not soon. It’ll fade, but it’ll pop up at intervals just like the “attacking rabbit” and the “stained blue dress”.

    Kirk

  52. 52

    Ted Kennedy WAS drunk, drove off a bridge, and left a girl to drown while he ran nd hid from the police.

    To try to pretend that Cheney accidentally shooting a buddy and then rushing him to the hospital afterwards, but not reporting it to the MSM for 18 hours is the same thing is an overreach.

    No, it’s the exact same thing. You’re making the false assumption that the story you know about Chappawingnut is the correct one. As ppGaz has pointed out numerous times, the facts don’t correspond to that story. The point of Chappawingnut is not about some girl drowning, it’s about damaging Ted Kennedy’s reputation whether or not it really happened.

    It’s similar to the “Roosevelt knew the Japanese were going to attack and let Pearl Harbor happen!”, or “The Civil War wasn’t about slavery”, or other forms of revisionism that we get constantly from the right.

    This is how politics works. I don’t like it. You want to sit and whine and cry about it, fine. But don’t go playing the same game on the right side, if you’re going to say you hate it on the left side. Be a man, and admit that Chappawingnut is probably also fabricated hyperbole.

  53. 53
    Don Surber says:

    Oh great, ppGaz says Ted wasn’t driving the Olds and invokes Bill Kurtis as saying some scenario is the only one that fits the “facts”

    Kennedy entered a plea of guilty to a charge of leaving the scene of an accident after causing injury.

    He drove the car, OK?

    Sheesh

  54. 54
    akaoni says:

    NO John, the reason the Dems will continue to lose elections is not from overstating their hand. Republicans do that all the time with good results. The reason Dems will continue to loose is that they do just the opposite. The NSA story is the perfect example. Here’s the Bush Administration over steping their authority, probably breaking the law, and instead the Dems are going to roll over and retroactively give Bush the right to do what he did without holding him accountable because they are afraid of being portrayed as weak on national security. That’s why the Dems continue to lose!

  55. 55
    emily says:

    To try to pretend that Cheney accidentally shooting a buddy and then rushing him to the hospital afterwards, but not reporting it to the MSM for 18 hours is the same thing is an overreach.

    Hmm. That’s not what I was trying to imply at all.

    I believe the question was whether Democrats suffer more rebound for making excessive accusations. And why that would be the case.

  56. 56
    ppGaz says:

    Barbar has it exactly and precisely right.

    And John will soon go nuclear and tell us that we’re all idiots and that we don’t get it and that we have no class and we’re a bunch of whiners.

    I’d say, within the next hour. Unless he’s in class or something, then later today.

  57. 57
    Mr Furious says:

    Um, Go over to my blog, you won’t find any of that stuff…

    [ugh]

  58. 58
    ppGaz says:

    He drove the car, OK?

    Not likely. When you get a chance to see Kurtis’ analysis, get back to me. The timeline and the known facts make it extremely unlikely. Huge suspension of disbelief is required to buy Kennedy’s story.

  59. 59

    And it is interesting to note that on the day Cheney comes out and says “I have Executivie Authority to Declassify information”, this is what John decides to post about.

    The other commentators have been pretty correct. This is John trying to deal with his cognitive dissonance.

  60. 60
    tb says:

    I guess we’re supposed to be saints. What’s John’s complaint? That a Democrat dared to write something maybe 10% as unfair as the reams of garbage opinion right wingers publish on a daily basis? This charge of “overplaying our hand” is laughable coming from a member of the party of Frist, Delay and 10,000 other over-the-top assholes. If only we had their exquisite sense of balance we’d rule the world, I guess.

    Nice troll, by the way. I know baiting Democrats is way easier than doing actual analysis, but come on. This song and dance is getting tiresome.

  61. 61
    Don Surber says:

    akaoni

    Another way of looking at NSA/FISA is the Dems realized there was nothing to it, and quit while they were ahead

  62. 62
    ppGaz says:

    That said, Kos is treading up to the line of overplaying it, and you can make a case that he is influential.

    Kos is a person, named Markos. I haven’t seen his word on the case, but most of the over-the-top stuff on the site doesn’t come from him. It comes from the diarists.

    DKos is not a news site, it’s an opinion site.

    What I have seen Markos himself say is that the best available reports are that Cheney at least “had a beer at lunch” before the shooting. That’s it, not that he was out there drunkenly shooting at Old Birdshot Head Wittington, or whatever his name is.

  63. 63
    Jane Finch says:

    Jane Hamsher is not “The Left”, or “they”. And her claim is sorely lacking in evidence.

  64. 64
    Lines says:

    My god, Don Surber is on a roll today. Please Don, keep up with these great lines, they can only add to your journalistic integrity and sense of self-worth.

    Twit.

  65. 65
    SeesThroughIt says:

    See, only a Democrat would embellish and/or outright make up a story like that. Whereas a Republican would embellish and/or make up a story like that, keep pressing it, and coat it with enough of a veneer of truthiness that it will actually clatter around the media for a while, picking up that aura of “realness” and be accepted as fact by good right-wing acolytes.

    Really, the only thing “Democratic” about this is the fact that this narrative won’t stick. Republicans would make it stick.

    That said, I think both parties suck for doing it. The truth speaks for itself–and it does not speak at all highly of Dick Cheney.

  66. 66
    Mr Furious says:

    I know all about Daily Kos, ppGaz. I post over there and have been reading for years. Kos—the man—has been known to step across the line on occasion, and I have risen to his defense on those occasions. And I am always, like you, ready to point out he is not responsible for 90% of the content over there.

    I said, “Kos,” because I meant him, not some random diarist. Kos, himself, posted this yesterday:

    Cheney drank before shooting his pal
    by kos
    Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 04:18:00 PM EST

    E&P:

    In an exclusive interview with Fox News’ Brit Hume this afternoon, Vice President Dick Cheney took full responsibility for shooting his hunting companion, who has until now been pictured as the guilty party. The interview will not aired in full until 6 p.m. but according to Hume, in summarizing the contents, the vice president remained “totally unapologetic” about the long lag in reporting the shooting to the public– and also said that he had consumed one beer at lunch that day.

    Cheney must consume a virtual cocktail of drugs every day because of his heart condition. I wonder what kind of reaction throwing alcohol into the mix might have.

    Any doctors in the house?

    Update: Here’s video of Hume talking about his interview with Cheney. You see, according to Cheney, they drank beer but no one drank beer:

    HUME: He said he had a beer at lunch and that had been many hours earlier. And it was dusk, around 5:00 p.m., when this incident happened. And he said that, you know, they had lunch out in the field, a barbecue, and he had a beer. But you said you don’t hunt with people who have been drinking. He said no one was drinking. He said they went back to the ranch afterwards, took a break after that, and went out about 3:00 and so you’re four or five hours distanced from the last alcohol that he consumed. And he said no one was drinking, not he nor anyone else.

    Discuss (718 comments, 718 new)

    No, it’s not Jane Hamsher, but he is clearly pushing the envelope with his headline, and I cringed when I read it, “Oh, jeez, Kos…”

    “he had consumed one beer at lunch that day.” = “Cheney drank before shooting his pal”

    Technically true, yes, but not equal statements. It’s also true that the Cheney’s New Year’s toast was before he shot his pal, too.

  67. 67
    ChristieS says:

    Kirk, I really do accept that there are important issues relating to this incident. I do appreciate that the Vice President’s actions are of importance. I sympathize with the victim and his family. I can understand that in many cases the “this could be me” factor plays a vital and important role in regular citizen’s lives, especially those who hunt.

    I’m just tired of hyperbolic rhetoric. I just consider Mr. Cheney’s stance on Iraq and his resistance and lies about wiretapping to be more important to our nation at this time than his boneheaded mistake, no matter how much potential for tragedy to the victim and his family. Call me too pragmatic, I guess.

  68. 68
    tb says:

    Another way of looking at NSA/FISA is the Dems realized there was nothing to it, and quit while they were ahead

    If you’re referring to a parallel universe where the plain language of the law is meaningless, tails chase their dogs and everyone has argyle skin, yes, absolutely.

  69. 69
    mark says:

    Two words John. Or should I call you Emily Post since you seem to be so concerned about pubic manners these days,
    Vince. Foster.

  70. 70
    Bruce in Alta California says:

    John, first line of your post is

    And the left once again is going to overplay their hand:

    You really must refrain from lumping everyone on the left with a few who habitually step over the line. I mean really, that single statement by you is also way over the line

  71. 71
    ppGaz says:

    Technically true, yes, but not equal statements

    Well, if Cheney were an airline pilot, and had had a drink at lunch before operating a flight that killed a passenger, his ass would be in jail right now.

    But hey, who ever said that a gun is as dangerous as an airplane?

  72. 72
    Steve says:

    When a drunk driver says he had “one glass of wine with dinner,” the police don’t just give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he’s telling the truth. I’m not sure why Cheney’s story that he had “one beer with lunch” should be entitled to any more credence.

    John’s vision of “responsible Democrats” seems to dictate that they must never, ever go one iota beyond the known facts, and the known facts are whatever the Republicans choose to dole out. I wonder what the picture-perfect Dem response to a GOP scandal would look like in John’s world, and I wonder why he thinks that response would be politically effective in the least.

  73. 73
    Otto Man says:

    It’s also true that the Cheney’s New Year’s toast was before he shot his pal, too.

    True. But his New Year’s Resolution was to thin out the elderly population, so that’s certainly relevant.

  74. 74
  75. 75
    Lines says:

    I think its absolutely hilarious that John thinks that because a couple liberal Democrats have over-extended on this issue that means that eventually all the major ones will.

    Projection, possibly?

  76. 76
    ppGaz says:

    Yes, Mr F, I know that you know that Kos stuff. But not everyone here will get it. DKos is not your typical blogsite where the blogmaster keeps a tight rein on the proceedings. You know, like here.

  77. 77
    ppGaz says:

    Projection, possibly?

    Nah, it’s just another troll of the lefties. He’s taking attendance this morning.

  78. 78
    Pb says:

    You know, firedoglake has had the best coverage and information about this story–bar none–of anyone. But of course you couldn’t have quoted any of that. In any case, I trust any of their hyperbole, rampant speculation, humor, etc., over whatever Cheney and his cronies have said so far–because so far, firedoglake has a better track record of being right, and they weren’t even there!

  79. 79
    techson says:

    I can’t decide if I like John Hannity or Sean Cole better… methinks the latter fits our PJmedia whore the best.

  80. 80
    Tom says:

    What do you expect? They’re the Left. They’ll ride this horse until it collapses.

  81. 81
    Vladi G says:

    He drove the car, OK?

    With apologies to Ken Ham, the wingnut creationist about which there was a thread the other day, let me just say “WERE YOU THERE?”

  82. 82
    Marcus Wellby says:

    They’ll ride this horse until it collapses.

    Sort of like the Bush admin’s approach to governing the country?

  83. 83
    ppGaz says:

    Excellent point, Pb. Righties talk as if these spuds had no existing track record.

    At this point in time, why would I believe, without corroboration, anything they said about anything, ever?

    These assholes have been wrong about Iraq for 30 frigging years, for example. Now all of a sudden, they are going to be right?

  84. 84
    ppGaz says:

    Sort of like the Bush admin’s approach to governing the country?

    Great, great line. PoTD.

  85. 85
    Mr Furious says:

    Pb, Agreed. Firedoglake was doing excellent work on this story early in the week, especially (mostly) the stuff written by ReddHedd.

    Jane’s stuff has been uncharacteristically weak by comparison, however, and John is right, the post in question was a low point. My quibble with John is his using it as a brush to paint everyone on the left—or at least as a stick to beat all of us lefties out of the brush (flush the covey, if you will) and get a big feisty thread happening after two or three quiet days around Balloon Juice.

  86. 86

    Two words John. Or should I call you Emily Post since you seem to be so concerned about pubic manners these days,
    Vince. Foster.

    Great point. The right is still beating that Foster horse. Rush Limbaugh just mentioned it again a few days ago.

  87. 87
    ET says:

    What a lazy assumption. I’m a Democrat and I don’t believe this shit so please don’t lump us all in the same group. I would also say that this is more of a “blogger stupidity” -it’s just this blogger happens to be on the left. I am sure I can come up with some crap that a blogger on the right spews and make the same over generalization you made here.

    Bloggers do not represnet the entire spectrum of the right or the left – they speak for themselves and while some people agree with them others don’t.

  88. 88
    EL says:

    In ERs (and probably police stations) across the country “I only had one or two beers” is considered a laugh line.

    It may be true, but given the overwhelming percentage of times it is not, I’d want to see a blood alcohol level.

  89. 89
    Al Maviva says:

    Okay, let me see if I got this right.

    1) Cheney was bombed to the bejeezus and was on the grassy knoll when he shot Whittington, probably thinking Whittington was either Jack Abramoff and guilty of screwing the Republican’s electoral chances next fall, or his (Cheney’s) wife.

    2) That Cheney was hunting with the current U.S. ambassador to Switzerland is proof of a dark conspiratorial connection between Republican politicians and Republican political appointees.

    3) Ted Kennedy was sober, dry, had nothing to do with Chappaquiddick, and anybody saying anything to the contrary is full of shit, as proven by an investigative reporter nobody has ever heard of.

    4) The WH cover-up is so huge, that right now, we haven’t heard anything like the true story. The “facts” released to the public, and the wild rumors about Cheney accidentally shooting or intentionally murdering a guy in front of lots of witnesses, are just spin to cover up a much bigger story, which was that Cheney was hunting John Stewart and Jim Carville, in a deranged Republican version of “The Most Dangerous Game.”

    5) John is once again fellating the Bush WH by saying its handling of the matter is “atrocious,” which is exactly what that bastard Rove would have wanted him to say.

    There… is that about the sum of all the assertions of fact in this conversation? Or is my flu medicine merely making me completely misread a lot of these statements in the last couple Cheney posts as utterly insane psychobabble?

  90. 90

    And the left once again is going to overplay their hand:

    And the right never does overplay theirs? Didn’t someone just write a blog complaining that every time a left wing nut goes mediapsychotic the right expects everyone on the left to apologize and pay penance, while at the same time a right wing nut goes mediapsychotic and those same rightists shrug their shoulders and say ‘whadda ya going to do?’ and ‘oh, Ann Coulter doesn’t really speak for all of us.’

  91. 91

    My quibble with John is his using it as a brush to paint everyone on the left—or at least as a stick to beat all of us lefties out of the brush

    But that was John’s intention.

  92. 92
    Pooh says:

    Well, glad we’re back to normal after a few days of playing nice-nice.

    John, did you read Tim’s post about error’s of argumentation? Excuse me, I’m of to powerline and LGF to find examples of John (as a member of the right, because you all look same to me) overplaying his hand.

  93. 93
    John Cole says:

    But that was John’s intention.

    No it wasn’t.

    My intention was to send a warning shot- use ressponsible rhetoric and do not overstate your case. Right now, you should be and are in a pretty enviable position. You have the VP playing fast and loose with authorities and the media (and you can decide which is more dangerous- I would say the latter), a public that most likely is already suspicious that he was drinking (Jesus-“I had a beer with lunch?”- Who the hell hasn’t come home stinking drunk and told their parents/wife “I just had one with dinner.”), and you are going to blow it.

    Already, Jane is pushing this using the quote above I provided, lawrence O’Donnell is pushing it at the HuffPo, Kos is pushing the drugs/booze angle (as is AmericaBlog), and we know what happens next- some Democrat will take the bait and go crazy in front of a camera.

    Watch.

  94. 94
    KenL says:

    Damn. John’s getting slammed pretty hard on his OWN BLOG.

    If nothing else, I do think the suggestion to collapse “Dem Stupidity” and “Rep Stupidity” into a single “Partisan Stupidity” category would be helpful.

    And yeah, now that Cheney’s done the necessary damage control, I do think it’d be stupid to keep harping on it. Makes him look sympathetic. Cheney. Sympathetic. Ye gods.

  95. 95
    jaime says:

    Al Maviva, Cheney is a known prodigious liar. Or do you believe the insugency is in its last throes, or he never said that a link between Saddam and 9/11 has been “pretty well confirmed” or that he never ever ever met John Edawards until the debate or that Iraq without a doubt had reconstituted nuclear weapons?

    Every little initial detail of this story has been inaccurate. There was no booze whatsoever, no there’s booze all up and down the place. It was the dumb old farts fault for putting his face in the way of Cheney’s shotgun, now it’s his fault. The Secret Service prevented the local police from interviewing Dick, now it’s all the Sherriff’s idea. Whittington was as healthy as Sean Hannity’s vision of Terri Schiavo, now he’s in the hospital for “privacy concerns” and not the birdshot that penetrated a coat, flannel shirt, undershirt, skin, chest muscle, and bone to lodge itself in the heart muscle.

    I always wondered if Bush shot someone point blank in the face on national T.V., who would come out to defend him…Well, I guess I got my answer in a way.

  96. 96
    John Cole says:

    John, did you read Tim’s post about error’s of argumentation? Excuse me, I’m of to powerline and LGF to find examples of John (as a member of the right, because you all look same to me) overplaying his hand.

    My intent was not to paint with a broad brush everyone on the left, but the vocal ones who are doing exactly what I said.

    And again, I am just teling you whbat is going to happen. I can see it now- by tonight or tomorrow, there will be Democratic strategists/talking heads going on the shows claiming he as drunk, and really going over the top, testing to see if it is safe for actual elected Democrats to move forward with the accusations. Within a week, someone will suggest this is grounds for impeachment.

  97. 97
    Darrell says:

    methinks the latter fits our PJmedia whore the best

    A textbook example of what John described:

    yet blow are going to blow it because of their overeagerness and their hate. Again.

    This site posts probably 3 to 1 more “Republican stupidity” items than ‘Dem stupidity’, and even in his ‘General stupidity’ category he usually targets Repubs, yet John is the ‘PJmedia whore’ to you people for pointing out the obvious?

    you loons can’t stand for him to point out that Dems really do have a tendency to overplay their hand because so many of you really are hateful kooks – look at White Phosphorus for another recent example of this. Oh, and Bush’s ‘trampling of the constitution’ with his NSA program. It’s who you are. It’s in your DNA to do this.

    John made a PREDICTION, one that will most likely turn out to be true based on the early signs of hysteria coupled with the left’s history of hyperventilated overreaction to this sort of thing

  98. 98
    Pooh says:

    John sez

    My intention was to send a warning shot- use ressponsible rhetoric and do not overstate your case.

    Now that, my friends, is a steaming helping of irony.

    My this tar is sticky.

  99. 99
    Faux News says:

    And in all this, what has John posted about? Which sci-fi crew he’d be on. How many notches he’s pulled in on his belt. And, oh, yeah, those damn lefties (or at least one that he’s managed to hunt down) are going to “overplay their hand”.

    Nice to know what you consider worth posting on John.

    Get your fucking priorities straight.

    OUCH! John is TOTALLY OWNED by this thread. Talk about getting reamed, and correctly so I might add.

  100. 100
    jaime says:

    Already, Jane is pushing this using the quote above I provided, lawrence O’Donnell is pushing it at the HuffPo, Kos is pushing the drugs/booze angle (as is AmericaBlog), and we know what happens next- some Democrat will take the bait and go crazy in front of a camera.

    Call ’em the Drunk Quail Hunters association for truth. Swiftie gets tough, Swiftie pays the consequences.

    “I hunted with Dick Cheney”

    “I hunted with Cheney”

    “I HUNTED with Dick Cheney”

  101. 101
    capelza says:

    Anyone see Tucker Carlson last night? Kos may have tred very close to the “line”, but then Carlson did the same thing…he said that the Cheney should not have had ANY beer on the day, before he went hunting. Is Carlson a Dem, too?

    I know, I know, novody watches the show, except maybe me, and I’m a moonbat…it’s a guilty pleasure.

  102. 102
    Perry Como says:

    It may be true, but given the overwhelming percentage of times it is not, I’d want to see a blood alcohol level.

    An enterprising reporter asked that question about Mr. Whittington and was given a “no comment”.

  103. 103
    Pooh says:

    This site posts probably 3 to 1 more “Republican stupidity” items than ‘Dem stupidity’, and even in his ‘General stupidity’ category he usually targets Repubs,

    Well, Senator, one might suggest that implies something about the ratio of stupid things done, considering that John already/still/for-the-rest-of-his-life/ until-the-next-election-when-Cindy-Sheehan-farts regrets voting GOP in ’04.

  104. 104
    John Cole says:

    Damn. John’s getting slammed pretty hard on his OWN BLOG.

    This ain’t no mutual admiration society, that is for damned sure.

    If nothing else, I do think the suggestion to collapse “Dem Stupidity” and “Rep Stupidity” into a single “Partisan Stupidity” category would be helpful.

    I think that is probably a good idea. Most of the over-reaction by my port-side friends is probably brought on by the ‘Democratic Stupidity’ category.

    And yeah, now that Cheney’s done the necessary damage control, I do think it’d be stupid to keep harping on it. Makes him look sympathetic. Cheney. Sympathetic. Ye gods.

    Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner.

    Pooh says:

    Now that, my friends, is a steaming helping of irony.

    My this tar is sticky.

    Tell me then, Pooh- what did you think I meant by this:

    They have Cheney in a possibly compromising position, yet are going to blow it because of their overeagerness and their hate. Again.

    Since you clearly disagree with my assertion that this was a warning shot, what exactly DID I mean? Please. I am curious to know what I am thinking. Because when I read Jane this morning, my reaction was ‘My goodness these folks are idiots! No wonder they never win.’ Why? I will say it again, even though you know better what I am thinking:

    They have Cheney in a possibly compromising position, yet are going to blow it because of their overeagerness and their hate. Again.

    But again, fill me in.

  105. 105
    Steve says:

    so many of you really are hateful kooks

    This is the kind of accusation that really says more about the person making it than the target. How nice it is to be lectured on responsible rhetoric by someone who calls people like me “hateful kooks” and “dishonest hacks.”

    It’s clear that Darrell is far, far more hateful than the vast majority of the people who post here.

  106. 106
    norbizness says:

    I like it, it’s like the Department of PreThoughtCrime

  107. 107
  108. 108
    Lysistrata says:

    some Democrat will take the bait and go crazy in front of a camera.

    Watch.

    They just can’t help themselves, can they? Poor bastards. I almost feel sorry for them, they’re such a bunch of bumblers.

  109. 109
    Mr Furious says:

    I gotta ask, why is Darrell now referred to as “Senator?”

  110. 110
    Darrell says:

    Al Franken is one of the few lefties who get it – ‘Cheney shot a man just so he could watch him die’. Now that is some seriously funny sh*t, no matter how you feel about the Bush administration

  111. 111
    Digital Amish says:

    To think that Democrats are trying to make political hay out of this is outrageous. I mean it’s not like he tried to hit a rabbit with a canoe paddle or anything.

  112. 112
    Pb says:

    Al Maviva,

    That Cheney was hunting with the current U.S. ambassador to Switzerland is proof of a dark conspiratorial connection between Republican politicians and Republican political appointees.

    Well, that’s a starting point, but it’s only the tip of the iceberg, as you might know if you had even the slightest passing interest in the truth, which you apparently don’t.

  113. 113
    LITBMueller says:

    Nobody is asking THIS question:

    “Gee, that sounds like a nice day, sipping beers, picnicing, driving around a ranch, and blasting quail with your buddy and two women.

    Where was Mrs. Cheney?”

  114. 114
    Pooh says:

    So, wait, Cheney is in a compromising postion…but we can’t do anything about it because that would overplay our hand? This is a fine little box you try to put us in, here. I think a lot of the noise you hear right now is from people like me who get annoyed (to say the least) with you when you get all huffy because some democrat somewhere is playing a little rough. And that’s why you’d never vote Dem? The GOP has played rough for my entire adult (and adolescent and childhood) life, but that didn’t stop you.

    We should start calling you a RIVO – Republican in Vote Only.

  115. 115
    jaime says:

    John, there is nothing Dick Cheney could do to look sympathetic. Did you even see the interview? It was the most horrible time in HIS life? Please. All those people describing how somber and quiet was forget that his demeanor and inflection is always somber. I don’t believe him for a second and I don’t get how anyone would. Then again I don’t get how anyone would stay with spouses that beat them, either.

  116. 116
    rilkefan says:

    It’s a bit late at this point, and maybe the wrong blog, but:
    Take a look at the tone of the paragraph John cites. It’s not very serious – “Boozehound”, “Johnny Law”, elision of pronouns, “kinda”. Read a bit more closely than the usual “let’s glance at this link out of context” – the paragraph is an oral take not intended to be read as an exact assertion of facts, and it signals its status consistently.

  117. 117
    Blue Neposnet says:

    you loons can’t stand for him to point out that Dems really do have a tendency to overplay their hand because so many of you really are hateful kooks

    This loon doesn’t really care if John points out Democratic Stupidity. In my looniness I dislike it when John points to a single partisan blogger and claims she/he represents the whole Democratic Party. If John’s intention was to say he thinks the Democratic Party leaders will soon follow Jane Hamsher’s lead he didn’t make that point very clearly in his original post.

  118. 118
    Pooh says:

    Furious, talking points from Senator Cornyn’s office have a way of…showing up in his comments. Editing optional.

  119. 119
    Mr Furious says:

    Yup, Lawrence O’Donnell is waay over the top. I didn’t read him at huffPo, but I saw a clip of him (on Scarborough?) over at C&L, and he was doing his best Jane Hamsher “Cheney was wasted!” impersonation on television.

    As an aside, the screen nameplate for him read something like, “Lawrence O’Donnell: Executive Producer, “The West Wing”.” From “MSNBC or Newsweek Senior Political Analyst” to hack from recently cancelled TV drama…nice.

  120. 120
    Blue Neposnet says:

    This is the kind of accusation that really says more about the person making it than the target.

    In all fairness to Darrell, an ex-girlfriend once called me a “insensitive jerk with a nice butt” which is pretty close to being a hateful kook. Well, she didn’t actually say “with a nice butt”, but I am sure she was thinking it.

  121. 121
    Pb says:

    LITBMueller,

    Three women, actually; we now know that Katharine Armstrong’s sister was there as well.

  122. 122
    Darrell says:

    In my looniness I dislike it when John points to a single partisan blogger and claims she/he represents the whole Democratic Party

    Except he never did that. He used Hamsher’s quote as an example, and there are many others he could have picked as well, that the left “is going to” overplay their hand. Key phrase ‘is going to’. He made a prediction, not a declaration

  123. 123
    Don says:

    Well, if Cheney were an airline pilot, and had had a drink at lunch before operating a flight that killed a passenger, his ass would be in jail right now.

    Because there’s explicit FAA regs about drinking 8 hours before a flight and requiring a BAC below .04. There are no such federal regulations regarding firearm usage, though their are often state regs.

    Cheney was obviously careless and the WhiteHouse did the usual jerky job of handling the incident but your comparison makes no sense.

  124. 124
    Darrell says:

    Pooh Says:

    So, wait, Cheney is in a compromising postion…but we can’t do anything about it because that would overplay our hand?

    No, don’t hold back. Scream till you’re red in your faces and snot coming out your nose about how you KNOW FOR A FACT Cheney was shitfaced drunk when he shot his friend, and accuse him of screwing the ambassador to Switzerland while your at it.

    Go ahead, louder now. We can’t hear you!

  125. 125
    SeesThroughIt says:

    Call ‘em the Drunk Quail Hunters association for truth.

    Oh, snap!

  126. 126

    “And the left once again is going to overplay their hand…”

    The hand is never overplayed as long as the Amen Corner is loud and long.

    Can we have a moritorium on, say, Chappaquidick, or maybe Byrd’s membership in the Klan in the 1940s, or isn’t that hand overplayed?

    John Cole, this is the trouble with hypocrites being self-righteous.

    Cheney shot a friend in the face with a shotgun. Cheney’s a fucking liar, and people don’t believe his story. Why should anyone be surprised? This bunch of crooks have lied about every important thing that’s happened over the last five years.

    Now how much was spent on the Whitewater investigation, Travelgate, etc. to nail Clinton? And all they got was some semen on a dress. Let’s not overreact, John. Gee, no wild speculation on Vince Foster, eh? Someone on Faux mentioned Vince Foster IN DEFENDING Cheney, like at least shooting his buddy in the face with a shotgun was an accident.

    You know, if someone on the left asked for caution in speculating on what actually happened, maybe I could read a little sincerity in the position. John Cole has no standing here. He regularly rides on the piss-wild horse of Republican thuggery but cautions the left to curb their excesses. Please.

  127. 127
    jaime says:

    Cheney was obviously careless and the WhiteHouse did the usual jerky job of handling the incident but your comparison makes no sense.

    Wrong. The White House wanted this handled the right way. Cheney saw fit to do things his way. And pilot comparison may be off, but I’ll tell you one thing, if you or I shot someone in the face sending them to the hospital, We’d be blowing into a breathalizer within hours of the incident.

    Dick Cheney is now a national joke. No one is laughing with him, they are laughing at him. He’s hit his ceiling with his %25 approval ratings and no amount of spinning by the bootlick apologists will change that. He’s the rotting chicken hanging around George Bush’s neck.

  128. 128
    capelza says:

    No, don’t hold back. Scream till you’re red in your faces and snot coming out your nose about how you KNOW FOR A FACT Cheney was shitfaced drunk when he shot his friend, and accuse him of screwing the ambassador to Switzerland while your at it.

    I’m sure he would if he could….but doesn’t the guy have congestive heart failure or something (hence the M.A.S.H type unit that follows him around..hey! who pays for that?)? Sex is a thing of the past. :P

  129. 129
    rilkefan says:

    This ain’t no mutual admiration society, that is for damned sure.

    Where’s the love, John? Show us respect, and we’ll respect you. Dan Drezner links to pictures of Salma Hayek and whatsherface all the time – you’re not even doing kitty pictures any more.

  130. 130

    As an aside, Pete Wilson (not the former governor), who has a radio talk show on KGO in San Francisco, was taking a similar position yesterday on wild speculations of what actually happened Saturday. After dismissing one particularly wild-eyed theory by a caller, he went to break. Unfortunately, his microphone was left on.

    In parody, Wilson suggested to his engineer that Cheney had a quart of Wild Turkey in one hand, the shotgun over his shoulder and he was getting a blowjob from one of the women on the hunt when he shot Whittington. It’s the funniest thing I’ve heard on radio in some time. All in the delivery.

  131. 131
    tb says:

    And yeah, now that Cheney’s done the necessary damage control, I do think it’d be stupid to keep harping on it. Makes him look sympathetic.

    My friend, you have been totally de-balled. Sympathetic my ass. Did the relentless negativity about Kerry and Gore make them look sympathetic? I say we hammer him until he is politically dead. Or until he learns to stop being so fucking mysterious.

  132. 132
    Blue Neposnet says:

    Except he never did that.

    Darrell,

    Perhaps my reading comprehension skills are not as sharp as yours, but I wasn’t alone in questioning John’s conclusion that ‘the left’ would ‘overplay its hand’ based on one blog entry on a partisan, Lefty blog. It is possible you and John are much brighter than the rest of us, but in the future he may have to dumb it down a shade to get through to us looney, hate-filled kooks with poor reading skills.

  133. 133
    Pb says:

    I don’t know how I could have missed this:

    I want to know what happened, and I have no problem with people speculating, but you don’t get to go make shit up

    Tell it to Cheney, Armstrong, Rove, et al. Ugh. Even the cops have now determined that they were lying their asses off about this. Now the burden of proof is on them to come clean or explain their rickety cover-up story that is so unbelievable only a complete idiot would unquestioningly believe it.

  134. 134
    Lines says:

    Maybe there was a little over-reaching with the purple heart bandaids? Maybe with the accusations that Kerry was French and that his wife beat him like a little girl?

    Pointing out that Cheney and the rest of the White House Krew are lying is nothing new, move along now, nothing to see here, and if there was, Clinton probably did it too.

    This is getting boring. Its the same shit, week after week around here. Republican lies, Republican bloggers swarm and create an impeneratable cheeto-stained shield and the regular crew start asking “why?”. If only that regular crew would just shut up, it would all pass.

    I for one dislike the echo chambers, where thousands of tin-foil hats compete for the strongest signals, and I like to mix it up, get an opposing voice that actually looks at the facts and can argue them. Thats not happening here anymore.

    I blame John and his tireless liberal bashing, taunting, baiting. I wonder why he’s doing it, if its for his little cheeto-eatting buddies in PJ Media, or if he’s just tired of being proven wrong all the time. Why even waste the time now?

  135. 135
    Darrell says:

    Perhaps my reading comprehension skills are not as sharp as yours, but I wasn’t alone in questioning John’s conclusion that ‘the left’ would ‘overplay its hand’ based on one blog entry on a partisan, Lefty blog. It is possible you and John are much brighter than the rest of us, but in the future he may have to dumb it down a shade to get through to us looney, hate-filled kooks with poor reading skills.

    Touche. But does anyone honestly believe John came to that conclusion based one partisan blog entry alone? please

  136. 136
    Richard Bottoms says:

    Only the most deranged Bush hater would suggest this incident would have lasting political effect.

    PEGGY NOONAN

    Hit Refresh?
    Why Bush may be thinking about replacing Cheney.

    Why would they be thinking about this? It’s not the shooting incident itself, it’s that Dick Cheney has been the administration’s hate magnet for five years now. Halliburton, energy meetings, Libby, Plamegate. This was not all bad for the White House: Mr. Cheney took the heat that would otherwise have been turned solely on George Bush. So he had utility, and he’s experienced and talented and organized, and Mr. Bush admires and respects him. But, at a certain point a hate magnet can draw so much hate you don’t want to hold it in your hand anymore, you want to drop it, and pick up something else. Is this fair? Nah. But fair has nothing to do with it.

    http://www.opinionjournal.com/.....=110007972

    I am disappointed that any Democrat would waste their time on this.

    **snark**

  137. 137
    Don Surber says:

    Lines:
    “This is getting boring. Its the same shit, week after week around here. Republican lies, Republican bloggers swarm and create an impeneratable cheeto-stained shield and the regular crew start asking “why?”. If only that regular crew would just shut up, it would all pass.”

    Yea, me too. This is a big deal and a lot of people are pissing away their credibility they have defending this Dick.

    Sub the name Al Gore or Ted Kennedy. That is what I did

  138. 138

    By the way, John, Cheney didn’t rush anyone to the hospital. He went to dinner and had a cocktail.

  139. 139
    Stormy70 says:

    I am sure the Secret Service will let any drunk person handle guns around the Vice President. Sure. But the left will overplay their hand, they always do. See the NSA “SCANDAL”. The Dems are backtracking as quickly as possible. Seems like Americans prefer Al Qaeda’s calls to the US to be monitored.

    I am with Darrell here, please yell your conspiracy theories a little louder.

    Oh, and the hunting stamp is so new, the state is sending out notices to people. Carry on.

  140. 140
    jg says:

    The left can’t do anything right, thats why he votes republican.

    We all know the republicans would react with total class if Gore shot a man while Clinton was in office. There’d be no talk about drinking or cover up. They’d wait until all the facts were in and proceed with dignity. No speculation. Uh uh.

  141. 141
    Richard Bottoms says:

    BTW, notice how the administration deftly used this uproar to release all of the Abu Gharib photos to Salon.

    Backed into a corner by their court challenge leaking was the only way for them to go. Besides as long as themuslims of the world are already going crazy about some cartoons, may as well let them vent their rage of this now too.

    Why we’re publishing the new Abu Ghraib photos
    America — and the world — has the right to know what was done in our name

    http://www.salon.com/

  142. 142
    capelza says:

    Stormy…why didn’t the Secret Service keep one of the twins from underage drinking? I think you give the Secret Service too much credit. If they can’t keep one teenager from boozing it up illegally, how can they tell Dick “go fuck yourself” Cheney what to do?

  143. 143

    Two reasons why Don Surber is no longer a Democrat:

    1. The competence and integrity displayed by the Republicans in all areas of governance.

    2. The Democratic Party is run by fools like Jane Hamsher.

  144. 144
    jaime says:

    Smoking gun has the “police report” up

    http://www.thesmokinggun.com/a.....eney1.html

    I especially liked this gem:

    “I asked Mr. Whittington if we could record our conversation and Mr. Whittington requested not to be recorded due to his voice being raspy. It was then I requested a written affadavit be done and Mr. Whittington gladly agreed to do so as soon as he returned back to his home office.”

    This officer reminds me of the cops in thrillers or horror films. You know, the ones that come to the door and you think are going to potentially save our victim and he either walks away leaving the monster to hack the victim to pieces or becomes a little too inquisitive and “gets it” himself.

  145. 145
    Blue Neposnet says:

    Seems like Americans prefer Al Qaeda’s calls to the US to be monitored.

    Stormy,

    Do you actually believe that Democrats do not want ‘Al Qaeda’s calls to the US to be monitored’?

  146. 146
    Richard Bottoms says:

    BTW.

    Who the hell is Jane Hamsher?

  147. 147
    Pooh says:

    John, having taken a few minutes to, you know, do work stuff, I think I can set forth my complaints with this post in two parts.

    1. While FDL is a little (a lot) too “Red Meat” for my taste, Hamsher’s above quoted tale is certainly plausible given what we know, and the facts that we don’t know are unclear due to the actions of the VP himself. In the legal system, the general rule is that ambiguities are general resolved against the party that caused the ambiguity. So I disagree with your first premise, that this speculation, while floridly stated, goes too far.

    2. Second, more importantly, it seems to me that the problem I have with this post is that, Sheehan excluded, your posts critical the right tend to bash a specific action or person, whereas instead of saying “Jane Hamsher goes too far. Again.” You say “the Left”. If you want to talk about whether the quoted paragraph is too much, you’d do better by staying with specific critcisms. Whereas if you want to indeed call out “The Left”, come with more than one quote from one blogger. If Howie Dean or Nancy Pelosi or Harry Reid comes with this narrative, then we can talk about whether the “left” is overplaying it’s hand. Once again, I would disagree, but it’s a more reasonable argument.

  148. 148
    Otto Man says:

    By the way, John, Cheney didn’t rush anyone to the hospital. He went to dinner and had a cocktail.

    Actually, the way I heard it, Cheney knelt down beside Whittington, cradled his bloody head in his hands, and cried out “Why, Lord?!? Why?!? Take me instead!” while tearing his garments and gnashing his teeth.

    People never talk about the good things that Dick Cheney does when he shoots a 78-year-old man in the face.

  149. 149
    Gray says:

    “I have no problem with people speculating, but you don’t get to go make shit up, as has been done here”

    I want to counter this by using the “Ann Coulter” defense:
    “Hey, she’s only been joking!”

  150. 150
    Perry Como says:

    Would these be the wrong time to mention how Cheney helped cover up the murder of a US scientist?

    :ducks:

  151. 151
    Perry Como says:

    btw Mr. Cole, you should call Cynthia McKinney’s office. She’d be happy to make your prediciton come true.

  152. 152
    Richard Bottoms says:

    2. Second, more importantly, it seems to me that the problem I have with this post is that, Sheehan excluded, your posts critical the right tend to bash a specific action or person, whereas instead of saying “Jane Hamsher goes too far.

    True dat.

  153. 153
    Pb says:

    Richard Bottoms,

    However, what has been released to the public thus far is a very tiny fraction of what’s still out there:

    A review of all the computer media submitted to this office revealed a total of 1,325 images of suspected detainee abuse, 93 video files of suspected detainee abuse, 660 images of adult pornography, 546 images of suspected dead Iraqi detainees, 29 images of soldiers in simulated sexual acts, 20 images of a soldier with a Swastika drawn between his eyes, 37 images of Military Working dogs being used in abuse of detainees and 125 images of questionable acts.

  154. 154
    Paul L. says:

    Here is a question for the Balloon Juice inmates about your concern for the poor victim Mr. Whittington.
    How long will it take you/the press to turn on the poor victim Mr. Whittington if he comes out of the Hospital and criticizes the coverage of the hunting accident.
    I suspect the lifespan of Element 116.

  155. 155

    Go over to my blog. You might find some more of that stuff.

  156. 156
    Steve says:

    See the NSA “SCANDAL”. The Dems are backtracking as quickly as possible. Seems like Americans prefer Al Qaeda’s calls to the US to be monitored.

    Stormy amply demonstrates why Democratic cowardice – what some like to call “responsible opposition” – is completely counter-productive. The vast majority of the Dems have taken a completely inoffensive, wait-and-see approach on the NSA issue, exactly what John Cole claims he would like to see. For Republican partisans like Stormy and Darrell, this accomplishes two things: (1) they can paint any Democrat who gets vocal on the issue as “extreme,” and (2) they can push a storyline that the Democrats are backing off because they “know” Bush did the right thing.

    You know you might be a little too “responsible” if the party in power (Hagel, Specter, Graham) is doing a better job articulating their opposition on an issue than the “opposition” party is.

    See, the public at large has very little time to familiarize themselves with the intimate details of the Downing Street Memo, the Plame outing, the NSA scandal, or whatever else might be the topic of the day. For the most part, people are too busy just getting up and going to work every day. So they form their opinions based on what they hear from opinion leaders, not from detailed study of the minutiae of the FISA statute and the like.

    When both sides make a big stink about an issue, then the apathetic public sees there are two sides to the story and looks for cues to form their opinion. But when they only see one side making a case, and the other side is just sitting there quietly “waiting for the facts to come in,” they figure there’s not really a dispute. They’re not going to waste their time researching an opposition case on their own when only one team has shown up for the game. And ultimately, this is how Bush has survived one disaster after another and even won reelection, because the Democratic leadership is where controversy goes to die.

  157. 157
    Barbar says:

    Paul L – actually, I hope Whittington dies, so that maximum damage will be done to Cheney! Bwahahaha! Bwahahaha!

  158. 158
    jaime says:

    Actually, the way I heard it, Cheney knelt down beside Whittington, cradled his bloody head in his hands, and cried out “Why, Lord?!? Why?!? Take me instead!” while tearing his garments and gnashing his teeth.

    Actually I think he cried out. “Why lord!?! Why ME!? This is the worst day of MY life!!!!!”

  159. 159

    What if illegals migrated like how that shotgun pellet migrated to Whittington’s heart?

    I know there’s a sick joke here somewhere, but all I can come up with is “bullet train.”

  160. 160
    Richard 23 says:

    Bob in Pacifica: Now how much was spent on the Whitewater investigation, Travelgate, etc. to nail Clinton? And all they got was some semen on a dress.

    I’d argue that eight years of scandalmongering and playing to the refs (yelling “liberal media”) helped get Bush/Cheney in office for six years and counting, and all on the taxpayer’s nickel. The perception was that it was time for a change. Any change.

    Now the public supposedly has scandal fatigue. And of all the scandals the “left” (anyone critical of the current administration) sees, this “hunting accident” is the only one that resonates in the press for longer than a day? Sad.

    I agree with those that argue that there are much more important “scandals” for the public to focus on, but that is not up to the left. It’s up to the corporate press.

  161. 161
    John says:

    What if illegals migrated like how that shotgun pellet migrated to Whittington’s heart?

    I know there’s a sick joke here somewhere, but all I can come up with is “bullet train.”

    Remember, it was a shotgun.

    Go with “gang bang” instead.

  162. 162
    Steve says:

    Hamsher’s above quoted tale is certainly plausible given what we know, and the facts that we don’t know are unclear due to the actions of the VP himself. In the legal system, the general rule is that ambiguities are general resolved against the party that caused the ambiguity.

    Actually, I think this is more of a res ipsa loquitur situation, in that Cheney & friends are the only ones in a position to know what happened, so anything they fail to explain sufficiently will be construed against them.

  163. 163
    Blue Neposnet says:

    How long will it take you/the press to turn on the poor victim Mr. Whittington if he comes out of the Hospital and criticizes the coverage of the hunting accident.

    I can only speak for myself, but I would say about 10 seconds. If Mr. Whittington helps the Chimpy McHaliburton administration in any way, shape or form then he is as evil as they are and he deserves what is coming to him.

    Is that the answer you were looking for Paul L?

  164. 164
    Mr Furious says:

    Even the cops have now determined that they were lying their asses off about this.

    PB,
    I followed you link and read the story and didn’t get that impression at all. Did I miss something?

  165. 165
    tb says:

    Cheney knelt down beside Whittington, cradled his bloody head in his hands, and cried out

    Croaked out. This is Dick Cheney. He croaked out “Why lord. Why. Please. Take me, uh, instead.”

  166. 166
    jaime says:

    How long will it take you/the press to turn on the poor victim Mr. Whittington if he comes out of the Hospital and criticizes the coverage of the hunting accident.

    He’s already taken one for the team and I suspect he’ll do it again. The question of blood alcohol content was answered with “no comment” by his doctors. Yet he’s adamant about there being no alcohol whatsoever. Publically he’ll do what needs to be done to put this behind him. Privately, he’ll always remember Cheney as “The asshole who shot me in the face”

  167. 167
    Kimmitt says:

    It is only a matter of time before Dean pipes up,

    Fortunately, since the capture of Saddam did make US soldiers safer, you’ve got a good point here.

  168. 168

    Quote from Cheney at the scene of the crime:

    “I had to do something. The fucker wouldn’t eat his creme brulee.”

  169. 169
    Vladi G says:

    This site posts probably 3 to 1 more “Republican stupidity” items than ‘Dem stupidity’

    That’s because Republicans are three times stupider. There’s no better example of this than Darrell himself. Actually, that’s not true. Darrell’s not stupid, just disengenuous. It’s Stormy that’s really stupid.

  170. 170
    SeesThroughIt says:

    Steve, you’ve been on fire the past couple weeks. Not as in “liar liar, pants on fire!” but as in “that’s his 10th consecutive three-pointer–he’s on fire!”

  171. 171
    Otto Man says:

    Croaked out. This is Dick Cheney. He croaked out “Why lord. Why. Please. Take me, uh, instead.”

    Good point. I had second thoughts about Dick showing an emotion outside his usual range. He talks like Shatner with anger issues.

  172. 172

    Richard 23, point well-taken. As long as it’s a Republican hand on the spigot of sludge, the Demos will be at a disadvantage.

  173. 173
    Mr Furious says:

    Steve, RE: the NSA scandal:

    Go read this over at Glenn Greenwald’s place. He is on a roll these days, and this piece is so fucking accurate—discouragingly so—that I almost wanted to wash my hands of politics all together.

    I am at the end of my rope with the Democratic Party, and it sure as hell isn’t because they “overplay” their hand.

  174. 174
    Mr Furious says:

    Speaking of Shatner, I love the fact that the police reports at TheSmokingGun.com repeatedly make reference to “Captain Kirk.”

  175. 175
    tb says:

    When both sides make a big stink about an issue, then the apathetic public sees there are two sides to the story and looks for cues to form their opinion. But when they only see one side making a case, and the other side is just sitting there quietly “waiting for the facts to come in,” they figure there’s not really a dispute. They’re not going to waste their time researching an opposition case on their own when only one team has shown up for the game. And ultimately, this is how Bush has survived one disaster after another and even won reelection, because the Democratic leadership is where controversy goes to die.

    Thanks Steve- this is right on the money. I think the Dem leadership is in a very tough position, though, considering the tidalwave of Republican corruption they have fight without subpoena power and virtually without support from the hack media.

  176. 176
    Mike in SLO says:

    Have to agree with Cristie S that there are way more important and muuch bigger issues facing the nation than this, but we’ve had major scandals from this Administration go nowhere time after time, so concentrating on a more important scandal isn’t likely to change anything. After all, torture and spying can is acceptable to half the nation if you believe the polls. It would be logical at this point to assume that the only scandal that could topple this Administration would be some minor unforseen little scandal. It would be sweet justice to this whole surreal “up is down” experience we’ve had as a nation under this Adminisitration if they were brought down by a poorly fired shot from Bid Daddy’s Weekend Bwahna Bash.

  177. 177
    Darrell says:

    Actually, I think this is more of a res ipsa loquitur situation, in that Cheney & friends are the only ones in a position to know what happened, so anything they fail to explain sufficiently will be construed against them.

    How does one ‘fail to explain sufficiently’ whether or not Cheney was hammered drunk when he shot his friend, or whether or not he poked the ambassador to Switzerland? Because those are exactly the sort of accusations beginning to come from the left, which John predicted will be echoed by one or more prominent Dems.

    Although it’s possible Cheney was drunk, I don’t see how that is such a foregone conclusion based on evidence so far. But making those accusations as if they were established facts is what makes the left so extreme, exactly like their claims of White Phosphorus being a “chemical weapon” and their scaremongering over Bush’s NSA program. extremists, no doubt about it

  178. 178
    ppGaz says:

    Scream till you’re red in your faces and snot coming out your nose

    Like you did, for a month, over the NSA wiretaps?

  179. 179
    ppGaz says:

    I gotta ask, why is Darrell now referred to as “Senator?”

    Because he gives good filibuster?

  180. 180
    Chris Johnson says:

    My goodness these folks are idiots! No wonder they never win.
    -John Cole

    OK, let’s pretend for a moment that I, who voted Dem, am one of ‘these folks’. Even that I’m getting upset and accusing Cheney of being drunk and not believing the ‘one beer’ nonsense. My bad. Oooooo.

    Well, I didn’t shoot an old man in the face. OK? Why in God’s name am I the problem here?

    This guy shoots an old man in the face and then does X, Y and Z in the way of not really dealing with it in a way I would consider honorable, and suddenly I’m the idiot.

    Wow, that’s terrible. Good thing I’m not a public servant like him, huh?

  181. 181
    Pooh says:

    Steve, I don’t think RIL applies to anything beyond the fact that it’s Cheney’s fault that Whittington got shot. My point was that to the extent we don’t know Cheney’s condition at that time, the fault for our lack of knowledge lies with him, which justifies a certian degree of speculation on our part. So to that limited extent, I agree with Senator D.,

  182. 182
    Winston says:

    Just wait, Blue. It is only a matter of time before Dean pipes up, and Pete Stark screams something from the floor of the house and so on.

    Just wait.

    Not sure Dean can pipe up, what with his head exploding over that Nobel nomination thing.

  183. 183
    Jim Allen says:

    From “Media Matters”:

    ‘”In her syndicated column, Ann Coulter referred to the Iranian president as a “jihad monkey” and wrote that “conventions of civilized behavior, personal hygiene and grooming” are “inapplicable when Muslims are involved.”‘

    I anxiously await John Cole’s decrying of this, under the heading “Republican Stupidity”.

    I will not, however, hold my breath while waiting.

  184. 184
    Jim Allen says:

    Also from “Media Matters”:

    “Rush Limbaugh suggested that “the White House ought to schedule” its next press briefing “at Fort Marcy Park,” the Northern Virginia location where Clinton deputy White House counsel Vincent Foster committed suicide on July 20, 1993.”

    More “Republican Stupidity”, John?

  185. 185
    Darrell says:

    Go read this over at Glenn Greenwald’s place. He is on a roll these days,

    Yeah, I especially enjoyed Greenwald saying that “Al queda has a good friend in the White house“. And his rants on how the ‘Christian right’ is attempting to create a ‘theocracy’.

    Balanced and insightful, or unhinged partisan hack? you decide

  186. 186
    t. jasper parnell says:

    Rilkefan is correct, the quote above is a joke, similar to Mr. Letterman’s quip that the VP “gunned down” his dear friend or mere acquaintance, depending on which quote from the recent heartfelt and detailed grilling undergone by the shocked and chastened Mr. Cheney at the mauling hands of the America’s Grand Inquisitor, Mr. Hume.

    Mr. Cole errs in predicting a future where the “left,” now somehow transformed into the Democratic Party’s spokesmen and women, attacks the Mr. Cheney’s various misrepresentations and misteps leading to or following after badly or inaptly aimed weapons with anythink like the “wit” of Ms. Hamsher.

  187. 187
    Jim Allen says:

    Another one?

    “In his February 14 column, MRC president Brent Bozell wrote of Vice President Dick Cheney’s February 11 hunting accident: “With apologies to the Cheney friend who received the pellet facial, the incident was funny.” Bozell’s column appeared well after news reports indicated that Texas lawyer Harry Whittington, the man Cheney shot, suffered a “cardiac event” brought on by birdshot lodged in his heart.”

    “Republican Stupidity”.

  188. 188
    Pooh says:

    Jim, you have it all wrong, no one really listens to Ann Coulter. she’s on the fringe.

  189. 189
    Pooh says:

    Jane Hamsher, though, now that’s one dangerous woman.

  190. 190
    Jim Allen says:

    Yes, but let’s not forget that Cindy Sheehan is a whacko.

  191. 191
    SeesThroughIt says:

    Jim, you have it all wrong, no one really listens to Ann Coulter. she’s on the fringe.

    Except she just gave a standing-room-only speech at CPAC. She is clearly demented, but it does say something about mobilized right-wingers (you know, the type who will go to something like CPAC) that they not only accept her, they think she’s great.

    In a rational world, Ann Coulter would be the equivalent of a street corner loon. In America, she’s a celebrated “conservative author, columnist, and speaker.” This is not a good thing.

  192. 192
    Pooh says:

    Harry Belafonte sang “Day-O”, and we all know what a rabble rousing commie-recruitment song that is.

  193. 193
    Steve says:

    Although it’s possible Cheney was drunk, I don’t see how that is such a foregone conclusion based on evidence so far.

    It’s not a foregone conclusion, of course, but when you have at least three contradictory stories regarding alcohol (“there was no drinking” “one beer with lunch” “went back to fix a cocktail”), combined with efforts to keep the cops away until the next day, I couldn’t blame anyone for concluding that alcohol was more likely than not a factor in the accident. This is even before you consider the fact that, regardless of what the NRA may advise, lots of people consider alcohol an indispensable part of a hunting trip.

    their scaremongering over Bush’s NSA program

    I find this part kinda humorous. See, to you, scaremongering is when someone says that Bush has trampled our civil rights and shredded the Constitution. To me, scaremongering is when people say the Democrats will have blood on their hands if they get the NSA program terminated and we have another 9/11. I’ll chalk this one up as “to each his own.”

  194. 194
    jaime says:

    In America, she’s a celebrated “conservative author, columnist, and speaker.” This is not a good thing.

    Don’t forget “Constitutionl Expert”

  195. 195
    Pooh says:

    STI, Jim and I are just doing the right-wing Kabuki dance wherein Jane Hamsher (or Far leftie du jour) is the greatest threat to the country since flouridated water and “Rush, AC and Pat Robertson are fringer elements that no one really listens to anyway, what’s the big deal, michael moore is fat, look a sasquatch.”

  196. 196
    Mr Furious says:

    Don’t be a douche, Darrell.

    “Al queda has a good friend in the White house“ is a reference to Bush helping achieve Al Queda’s goal of terrorizing the populace by ratcheting up the fear factor at all times. This time specifically by hyping the LA plane/bombing plot.

    Smart people know that the object of terrorism is getting the population to irrationally fear for their safety (ie: be terrified).

    Greenwald proceeds to make a completely hinged and coherent case on that front.

    As to the theocracy blurb, is that really a question?

    Try reading the NSA stuff I was referring to, especially his on the Democrats self-neutering…

    Darrell—Partisan flamethrower or serial liar? You decide.

  197. 197
    SeesThroughIt says:

    Don’t forget “Constitutionl Expert”

    D’oh! I forgot about that one. That’s probably my favorite. It’s such a bullshitty title.

    FOX NEWS PRODUCER: Ann, have you heard of the Constitution?
    ANN COULTER: Well, I’ve not heard of it.
    FNP: Great! You’re our go-to Constitutional expert! Remember: You don’t get paid if you don’t bash a Clinton. Go get ’em, tiger!

    (I know, I stole the “I’ve not heard of it” joke from Futurama. Sue me. Actually, don’t. Consider it a loving homage.)

  198. 198
    tb says:

    Scream till you’re red in your faces and snot coming out your nose

    I wish some of these people had played in punk bands in high school so they wouldn’t have to vent their bile in the political arena.

  199. 199
    Jim Allen says:

    And wouldn’t “Red-faced Snot Noses” be a great name for a punk band?

  200. 200
    GOP4Me says:

    I see this issue as a net boon for Republicans this November, mostly because Democrats will shrilly overplay an “issue” with no substance to it but also because the American people are enamored with morality and principle, and Cheney has shown both throughout this accident. I think in Novemeber the American people will see left-wingers continuing to snipe about this incident, and they’ll vote for the party of the man who acknowledged his mistakes and took responsibility for them.

    And don’t diss Ann Coulter, Pooh. She’s hot. I’d take her over your Janeane Garofalo any day.

  201. 201
    Vladi G says:

    Darrell—Partisan flamethrower or serial liar? You decide.

    Well, probably both, but serial liar is probably the best fit.

  202. 202
    Pb says:

    Mr Furious,

    Compare “30 yards” to “several feet downhill”–Salinas and San Miguel’s account of what happened doesn’t match up with Armstrong’s account. Also compare “100 yards” to “directly behind”.

  203. 203
    capelza says:

    GOP4me…you are almost too cute to be believable. Maybe the Democrats running for office will do something completely outrageuos like wearing orange bandaids on their cheeks.

    Oh wait, that’s already been done..though from the opposite side of the colour wheel.

  204. 204
    Pb says:

    GOP4Me,

    they’ll vote for the party of the man who acknowledged his mistakes and took responsibility for them

    They’ll vote for John Kerry’s party? Hey, works for me.

  205. 205
    Gray says:

    “She’s hot. I’d take her over your Janeane Garofalo any day.”

    Hmm, ok, she’s hot as long as she doesn’t talk. But since 911, you sure have your ducttape at hand, so I guess you could handle her…

  206. 206
    GOP4Me says:

    GOP4me…you are almost too cute to be believable. Maybe the Democrats running for office will do something completely outrageuos like wearing orange bandaids on their cheeks.

    I didn’t necessarily agree with that particular stunt, but that’s all it was: a prank. An isolated stunt perpetrated by a handful of delegates. You know, kind of like the people who removed all the W’s from the keyboards in the White House on their way out the door.

    They’ll vote for John Kerry’s party? Hey, works for me.

    Don’t bring Kerry into this. Kerry was FOR shooting quail before he was AGAINST it. Kerry will also be FOR using a tragic accident as political hay before he will be AGAINST it as well.

  207. 207
    Steve says:

    Grade A fakery, for sure. The only reason I can’t fully appreciate it is that I’ve smoked too much of the good stuff to get the same high from it any more.

  208. 208
    capelza says:

    Um, GOP4Me…was the “W removed from the keyboards” an actual thing or just something made up?

    Kerry never shot a guy in the face (and the heart and the liver and the larynx)….:)

  209. 209
    capelza says:

    That should have read “Kerry never shot a guy in the face (and the heart and the liver and the larynx) while hunting”.

  210. 210
    jaime says:

    Democrats will shrilly overplay an “issue”

    GOP are you capable of typing four words together without parroting some talking point? Are you being paid to do this? Like effing clockwork you lemmings are.

    American people are enamored with morality and principle, and Cheney

    It’s been pretty much confirmed that this story is in it’s last throes and without a doubt he has reconstituted his popularity.

    And don’t diss Ann Coulter, Pooh. She’s hot.

    I’d consider her a grudge f— and nothing more. But comparing her to Garafalo. Come up with a conservative hotter than Angelina Jolie and then you can continue with your liberals are ugly suggestion.

  211. 211
    SeesThroughIt says:

    Ann Coulter? Hot? I didn’t realize anorexic trannies were all the rage these days.

  212. 212
    my cat says:

    Hey, according to a rumor on the Huffington Report, Dick wasn’t drunk–he was hunting with his sweetie, the Ambassador from Switzerland!

  213. 213
    GOP4Me says:

    Hmm, ok, she’s hot as long as she doesn’t talk. But since 911, you sure have your ducttape at hand, so I guess you could handle her…

    I think I see where you’re going with this. That’s an interesting point…

  214. 214
    Pb says:

    GOP4Me,

    Way to shrilly overplay it! Gotta love it when Republican hacks unwittingly attack John Kerry for being fiscally responsible, the irony is just so bittersweet.

  215. 215
    gratefulcub says:

    Hey, according to a rumor on the Huffington Report, Dick wasn’t drunk—he was hunting with his sweetie, the Ambassador from Switzerland!

    If it might be about sex………we need a
    2 year investigation.

  216. 216
    Pooh says:

    And don’t diss Ann Coulter, Pooh. She’s hot. I’d take her

    And here I thought you wingers didn’t like man-on-man action…

  217. 217
    GOP4Me says:

    Um, GOP4Me…was the “W removed from the keyboards” an actual thing or just something made up?

    You mean like Kerry’s service record?

    Kerry never shot a guy in the face (and the heart and the liver and the larynx)….:)

    Nah, he just killed about 20 people or so. That’s how he got all those medals, right?

  218. 218
    Mike in SLO says:

    Oh thank you GOP4Me for so clearly articulating the American majority position for us feeble-minded yokels.

    Yes, acceptable definitions of torture, denial of Constistutional rights to any American labeled an “enemy combatant”, warrantless spying, faulty intelligence, inadequate and ineffective post-war planning, inadequate and unacceptable responses to natural emergencies, cutting taxes for the rich in a so called “time of war”, ballooning deficits and out of control spending are just a few of the morally and principled ideas Americans cherish and voted for in 2004. It’s so nice that GOP4Me reminded me that we get to vote for these cherished values once again this November! Thank you GOP4ME, and thank you Vice President Cheney for the morality you inflict on us each and every day!

  219. 219
    Tom in Texas says:

    “I am sure the Secret Service will let any drunk person handle guns around the Vice President. Sure.”

    Kinda like how they let minors drink in bars in Austin? Comeone dude, the SS doesn’t get to tell any of the people they are protecting what they can and cannot do. They try to prevent problems afterwards.

  220. 220
    GOP4Me says:

    That should have read “Kerry never shot a guy in the face (and the heart and the liver and the larynx) while hunting”.

    Kerry hunted people. Well, medals and glory, really, but hunting people was in his job description. Do yo liberals think war’s some kind of video game? Killing Communists was a noble tradition for over 100 years in this country. Democrats used to partake in it, too. Cf. LBJ and Harry Truman (the last semi-decent Democrat in this country’s history).

  221. 221
    Vladi G says:

    Speaking of serial liars, nice to see that one of the dipshits from “Scrutator” has decided to show up.

  222. 222
    Tom in Texas says:

    And GOP — Kerry shot 20 people or so while AT WAR — you know, where they train you to fight and kill other human beings. Slight difference between shooting the enemy on the battlefield and blowing your buddies face off on a canned hunt.

  223. 223
    Krista says:

    I’d consider her a grudge f—- and nothing more

    What a charming turn of phrase. I bet you get all the ladies, don’t you?

  224. 224
    SeesThroughIt says:

    You mean like Kerry’s service record?

    No, like Bush’s.

  225. 225
    neil says:

    And the left once again is going to overplay their hand

    This is a hand? Coulda fooled me. If I thought the Democrats were planning to play with this one, they at least would have been telling people about how Cheney shot an old man in the face with a $40,000 shotgun. Kinda lends perspective to those $200 haircuts that give Republican pundits the vapors.

    As far as Cheney being drunk, it does seem kind of telling that he knowingly passed up his only chance to prove he wasn’t, doesn’t it? I think this sets an awful example for the nation’s children. After all, if an average citizen accidentally shoots a man in the face and then refuses to be interviewed by police until 16 hours later, the sheriff might not just take his word that he wasn’t drinking.

    As far as American politics goes, I have never seen anyone pay for ‘overplaying their hand’. I mean, look where all that Vince Foster and Whitewater stuff got the Republicans. Rush Limbaugh is a national laughing stock and the Republicans have solidified their reputation as a bunch of vindictive assholes who can’t be trusted.

    Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

  226. 226
    RobR says:

    the American people are enamored with morality and principle, and Cheney has shown both throughout this accident.

    Damn straight. Hell, I believe him. Technically, a Budweiser Party Ball is one beer. And a cocktail ain’t nothing but one part bourbon to one part ginger ale. If the man wants to serve it up in a 60-ounce Seven-Eleven Comeback Mug, that’s his business.

    How dare you you disrespect Dick!

  227. 227
    Richard 23 says:

    Cheney might as well take a lie detector test so we can put all this silliness behind us. One beer before (I’m assuming a 12 oz or 16 oz) and a cocktail after.

    Once he passes with flying colors it’ll satisfy most of the moonbats and the story will be laid to rest.

    Maybe check Pam’s laundry basket for Cheney DNA, but that’s for another day. (Just kidding, folks.)

  228. 228
    GOP4Me says:

    GOP are you capable of typing four words together without parroting some talking point? Are you being paid to do this? Like effing clockwork you lemmings are.

    I’m sorry, were you addressing me, or the mirror?

    It’s been pretty much confirmed that this story is in it’s last throes and without a doubt he has reconstituted his popularity.

    Your snarkiness aside, yes. The only downside is that he might feel compelled to resign by his own conscience and the dictates of grace and decorum. That would be a dark day for us all. Bush will be like Robert E. Lee after he lost Stonewall Jackson: still an able commander, but without his right arm.

    I’d consider her a grudge f—- and nothing more. But comparing her to Garafalo. Come up with a conservative hotter than Angelina Jolie and then you can continue with your liberals are ugly suggestion.

    Angelina Jolie is a conservative?

    I do know SOME Hollywood conservative hotties, though. Some of them are closet conservatives, but here are the names I know of. Shannon Doherty. Bo Derek. That girl who played Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Really, though, since Hollywood is so overwhelmingly liberal, most of the hot conservatives out there will be in the Heartland, far away from your papparazzi, working for a living and breeding Americans far more patriotic than your Angelina Jolies and your Sheen/Baldwin clans.

  229. 229
    neil says:

    Oh yeah, that’s right! I don’t have to go all the way back to Vince Foster… the evidence that Cheney was drunk is much more compelling than the evidence that Kerry didn’t earn his medals. And look how badly the Republicans paid for overplaying that hand!

  230. 230
    jaime says:

    Kerry hunted people. Well, medals and glory, really, but hunting people was in his job description. Do yo liberals think war’s some kind of video game?

    Yeah, because Vietnam was the place to safely glory hunt.
    I tend to think these modern day fake-conservatives think war is a video game. That’s why you people cry out in anger when reminded that people actually die, or you supposedly macho-men begin menstruating at the thought of actually signing up for service. Of course the women in the military are more macho than mostly every one in the right wing pundit class.

  231. 231
    Pooh says:

    Shorter GOP4ME: “I’m rubber and you’re glue…pass me the Soldier of FortuneMaxim”

  232. 232
    GOP4Me says:

    And here I thought you wingers didn’t like man-on-man action…

    Ha ha, liberal. Have fun with Janeane when you guys meet up in Vancouver, just leave Ann and I Texas.

    Oh thank you GOP4Me for so clearly articulating the American majority position for us feeble-minded yokels.

    You’re welcome.

    Yes, acceptable definitions of torture, denial of Constistutional rights to any American labeled an “enemy combatant”, warrantless spying, faulty intelligence, inadequate and ineffective post-war planning, inadequate and unacceptable responses to natural emergencies, cutting taxes for the rich in a so called “time of war”, ballooning deficits and out of control spending are just a few of the morally and principled ideas Americans cherish and voted for in 2004. It’s so nice that GOP4Me reminded me that we get to vote for these cherished values once again this November! Thank you GOP4ME, and thank you Vice President Cheney for the morality you inflict on us each and every day!

    You’re welcome, but the least you could do to display your gratitude is not bore me with this laundry list of irrelevant paranoid left-wing grievances and fantasies.

  233. 233
    neil says:

    Have there ever been any hands the Republicans _haven’t_ overplayed to great success, for that matter? 9/11 doesn’t even need to be mentioned. Gore invented the Internet and we still have not heard the last of it, nor, for that matter, that he grew a beard. They overplayed Clinton’s marital infidelities into more sordid details than we got in Brokeback Mountain, and have not lost a federal election since. Hillary Clinton is not just an unpleasant figure, she is a pagan lesbian murderer harridan. Democrats are not just weak on defense, they actually want to harm America, because they are literally aligned with Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein. Even a funeral is a perfect opportunity for exposing liberal perfidy.

    Again, when has overplaying a hand ever hurt anyone in American politics?

  234. 234
    Perry Como says:

    Technically, a Budweiser Party Ball is one beer.

    Since when has Budweiser been beer?

  235. 235
    Tom in Texas says:

    Good lord man it’s not irrelevant to point out that Americans have Constitutional protections; nor is it a fantasy to state that we have balooning deficits or that we cut taxes during wartime. A fine attempt to completely ignore that substance of the post, but it failed miserably.

  236. 236
    capelza says:

    GOP4me….no this liberal doesn’t think that war is some video game, especially the ones who are vets of the same war, like my husband and others.

    Truly, judging by the usual GOP response, it is your crowd that thinks it’s all a RPG game, with candy and flowers thrown in, plus that “we’re all going to die” if the libs have their way bullshit.

    We weren’t talking about Kerry’s war record, we were talking about HUNTING. Kerry went, got pasted for it, but he didn’t shoot anyone. Supposedly he never hunted before that (not true). Yet the experienced Cheney did in fact put his friend in the ICU.

  237. 237
    GOP4Me says:

    Speaking of serial liars, nice to see that one of the dipshits from “Scrutator” has decided to show up.

    Better to trash you here so I don’t have to trash you on my own blog, Vladi.

    This is a hand? Coulda fooled me. If I thought the Democrats were planning to play with this one, they at least would have been telling people about how Cheney shot an old man in the face with a $40,000 shotgun. Kinda lends perspective to those $200 haircuts that give Republican pundits the vapors.

    Well, at least Cheney didn’t tie up an entire airport for hours so he could hunt. He’s a wealthy man, he’s worked hard his whole life. Why can’t he own a $40,000 shotgun?

    As far as Cheney being drunk, it does seem kind of telling that he knowingly passed up his only chance to prove he wasn’t, doesn’t it? I think this sets an awful example for the nation’s children. After all, if an average citizen accidentally shoots a man in the face and then refuses to be interviewed by police until 16 hours later, the sheriff might not just take his word that he wasn’t drinking.

    He was showing concern for his friend, not the way that dishonest kooks like your friends in the media would portray this story. I suppose he should grovel in sack-cloth and ashes, whipping himself with a birch-branch, to appease your liberal lust for pain and self-abasement, but in America, a man is a man. He had concern for his friend, he was delayed in informing the police due to the emergency conditions, and he apologized later. As far as I’m concerned, that’s the end of the story, but I’m sure your lefty press will make sure we hear of nothing else between now and November.

    As far as American politics goes, I have never seen anyone pay for ‘overplaying their hand’. I mean, look where all that Vince Foster and Whitewater stuff got the Republicans. Rush Limbaugh is a national laughing stock and the Republicans have solidified their reputation as a bunch of vindictive assholes who can’t be trusted.

    I’ve been hearing this same story every year since 2001, yet whenever a poll that really matters comes along every 2 years, the American people have given a different accounting of things.

    Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

    Two can play at that game, Mister! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

  238. 238
    Pooh says:

    Better to trash you here so I don’t have to trash you on my own blog, Vladi.

    So do you doofuses have a post up saying “let’s fight the lefties over there so we don’t have to over here?”

  239. 239
    Blue Neposnet says:

    Kerry hunted people. Well, medals and glory, really, but hunting people was in his job description. Do yo liberals think war’s some kind of video game?

    GOP4ME,

    Just stop it, please. That is really in poor taste.

  240. 240
    capelza says:

    GOP4me, ask the state of Montana about Cheney tying shit up. During fire season, the VP took a big chunk of their helicopters as protection so he could go fishing. The Governor asked for them back…

    Please, you are a tool. Concern for your friend would be sitting in the hallway outside of the room (if he wasn’t allowed in the room itself).

  241. 241
    jaime says:

    Hollywood is so overwhelmingly liberal, most of the hot conservatives out there will be in the Heartland, far away from your papparazzi, working for a living and breeding Americans far more patriotic than your Angelina Jolies and your Sheen/Baldwin clans.

    What the fuck are you jabbering about?

    #1 Hollywood is like 30 square miles.

    #2 Most actors from Hollywood come from someplace else. Usually the heartland.

    #3 Patriotism is a product of Breeding? I’m going to break Godwin’s law now and call that some frightening Near-Nazi bullshit. Make ’em big and strong with crystal blue eyes, golden blonde hair and containing an undying allegiance to whatever “conservatism” is at the time.

  242. 242
    GOP4Me says:

    Yeah, because Vietnam was the place to safely glory hunt.
    I tend to think these modern day fake-conservatives think war is a video game. That’s why you people cry out in anger when reminded that people actually die, or you supposedly macho-men begin menstruating at the thought of actually signing up for service. Of course the women in the military are more macho than mostly every one in the right wing pundit class.

    Safe or not, some did it.

    The men and women in the military are also mostly more conservative than mostly every one on this blog.

  243. 243
    RobR says:

    Why can’t he own a $40,000 shotgun?

    For 40 g’s it should’ve blown the guy out of his socks, called the AP and shaken the cocktail for him.

  244. 244
    Tom in Texas says:

    “He was showing concern for his friend”

    He sent his “friend” to the hospital by ambulance despite the fact that he had at least 2 helicopters on call for emergency medical reasons at all times, and then went back to the ranch for a stiff one. He never even went to the hospital. You’re seriously trying to say that he sat in the clubhouse all night and turned away sheriff’s deputies at the gate out of concern for his friend eh? He refused to tell anyone in the WH (with the possible exception of Rove) that he shot a man and instead only informed them that someone was shot on the hunt. You are seriously blindly partisan if you don’t smell something fishy here. And all the evidence still points to Cheney being, at the very least, a heartless prick.

  245. 245
    jaime says:

    GORE GREW A BEARD!!!! HE HAS NO SENSE OF HIMSELF. JUST LIKE LIBERALS DON’T BELIEVE IN ANYTHING EXCEPT THE CULTURE OF DEATH. AL GORE GREW A BEARD AND HE’S LESS OF AN AMERICAN IN MY EYES.

  246. 246
    GOP4Me says:

    Shorter GOP4ME: “I’m rubber and you’re glue…pass me the Soldier of FortuneMaxim”

    Oh, sorry it’s too heterosexual for you, Pooh.

    We weren’t talking about Kerry’s war record, we were talking about HUNTING. Kerry went, got pasted for it, but he didn’t shoot anyone. Supposedly he never hunted before that (not true). Yet the experienced Cheney did in fact put his friend in the ICU.

    Kerry was against hunting before he was for it, then.

    And actually, according to those cittion records, Kerry did shoot people. He supposedly shot a man who aimed a rocket launcher at his boat. Of course, knowing him, he’d probably claim he shot the entire North Vietnamese population if he thought anyone would believe him.

    Cheney was distracted and his friend snuck up on him. It’s called an accident. They happen all the time.

  247. 247
    tbrosz says:

    John, I don’t think the Democratic Party is going to run with this one. As with the NSA issue, they’re getting better at spotting the hole in the ice ahead before they fall in.

    Of course, I could be wrong.

  248. 248
  249. 249
    GOP4Me says:

    So do you doofuses have a post up saying “let’s fight the lefties over there so we don’t have to over here?”

    No, but that’s a good idea.

    GOP4me, ask the state of Montana about Cheney tying shit up. During fire season, the VP took a big chunk of their helicopters as protection so he could go fishing. The Governor asked for them back…

    Please, you are a tool. Concern for your friend would be sitting in the hallway outside of the room (if he wasn’t allowed in the room itself).

    Yes, but he’s the Vice President, and sometimes important people don’t get to act as they would if they were private citizens. I hadn’t heard about the helicopter incident. If that’s true, it’s a mistake, but he is only human after all. (A point you liberals drove home relentlessly when your man inhabited the White House.)

    #3 Patriotism is a product of Breeding? I’m going to break Godwin’s law now and call that some frightening Near-Nazi bullshit. Make ‘em big and strong with crystal blue eyes, golden blonde hair and containing an undying allegiance to whatever “conservatism” is at the time.

    No, patriotism is a product of culture. Culture is caused by upbringing, which is a byproduct of where you are born, which is a result of… being bred. A pretty attenuated link to Nazism, but I’m sure you’re one of those liberals trying to pin National Socialism on anyone to the right of Arlen Specter, so why am I even belaboring the point with you?

  250. 250

    Has anyone done a psychological profiling of Ann Coulter? Seriously. I know she was born to a rich, strict Catholic family, and that her father was a union-busting labor lawyer, and that she used to wear furs to class in grad school, so I have a few clues about what helped to make her the hate-spewing propagandist for the corporatists that she is today. She’s a daddy’s girl.

    Her appearance and abusive manner strikes me as some kind of dominatrix figure. Considering the anti-sexual tenets of the right, Coulter makes for a curious sexual icon. The goddess of punishment. When righties say how hot she is, I wonder if they’re getting all excited in anticipation of getting their fannies spanked.

  251. 251
    Tom in Texas says:

    What on earth does the fact that Kerry was painted as being a pansy have to do with him being against hunting before he was for it? Perhaps you refer to his dislike of handguns as evidence of his being antihunting? How many hunters do you know that use handguns? Down in Houston, most hunters I know detest handguns because there’s no sport to them, they are in accurate, and they are used solely to kill people, not animals. To put it simply, you can be anti handgun and prohunting. You are not antigun for being against concealed handguns.

    And yes, I do believe it was an accident, and accidents do happen all the time, but if you get in a hit and run accident and fail to tell the authorities for 18 hours, there is likely to be a lot of questions as to why you failed to report an accident immediately.

  252. 252
    neil says:

    Rush Limbaugh is a national laughing stock and the Republicans have solidified their reputation as a bunch of vindictive assholes who can’t be trusted.

    I’ve been hearing this same story every year since 2001, yet whenever a poll that really matters comes along every 2 years, the American people have given a different accounting of things.

    Easier to argue against it than recognize it as sarcasm, huh?

  253. 253
    Mr Furious says:

    Boy, the last forty or so comments were worth the wait… I have been laughing my ass off, folks. Nicely done, all. Even GOP4Me, you served your purpose as an effective foil. Feel free to drop by any time Pooh, RobR and Neil need a workout.

  254. 254
    Jim Allen says:

    I’m still hoping GOP4Me will rip off his mask and reveal himself to be DougJ.

    Failing that, maybe he can rip off his head.

    (ba dum bump)

  255. 255
    Andrei says:

    Actually John… you’ve got it all wrong.

    The reason Democrats and the “left” lose is because they *DON’T* overplay their hands to the extent the GOP does. In other words, they hold back and don’t spread filth, rumor, lies and smear propoganda to install questions into the minds of the lazy who prefer to focus thier attention on who is going to win American Idol.

    All one has to do is listen to Coulter, Hannity, Limbaugh, and every right wing expert on Fox to know that what is required is crossing the line over and over to win, which much of the Dems refuse to do.

  256. 256
    Pooh says:

    Oh, sorry it’s too heterosexual for you, Pooh.

    Ooh the Brokeback card! You can do better than that, can’t you? Try harder, big feller.

  257. 257
    GOP4Me says:

    Boy, the last forty or so comments were worth the wait… I have been laughing my ass off, folks. Nicely done, all. Even GOP4Me, you served your purpose as an effective foil. Feel free to drop by any time Pooh, RobR and Neil need a workout.

    Well, this IS a blog, Mr. Furious, not a polling booth. We aim to please, not enlighten. I disagree with you people, but I’m not here to convince anybody or get convinced. You’re setting a good example for your fellow lefties, they should stop taking this all so seriously. They’re arguing with a bunch of pixels on their monitor, not changing the world.

    For a liberal, you sem like a pretty cool guy, Mr. Furious.

  258. 258
    jaime says:

    When Republicans lose a national election, should I expect a rash of mass suicides since it’s incoveivable to them that they may be wrong?

    No, patriotism is a product of culture. Culture is caused by upbringing, which is a byproduct of where you are born, which is a result of… being bred.

    So when you walk down your block in your perfectly bred neighborhood and see half the cars with Bush Sucks stickers, does that mean they were bred improperly?

    Most of “Hollywood” comes from the midwest, dumbshit. They were bred “properly” and decided to leave you fucks back in the middle of flyover country…to inbreed.

  259. 259
    GOP4Me says:

    I’m still hoping GOP4Me will rip off his mask and reveal himself to be DougJ.

    Failing that, maybe he can rip off his head.

    (ba dum bump)

    I’m not DougJ, sir.

    Thank you for the death threat, though. Very appropriate. As I said, it doesn’t bother me any, because this is just a blog. But it is quite revealing.

    Ooh the Brokeback card! You can do better than that, can’t you? Try harder, big feller.

    You’re the one that brought Maxim into this, Pooh. How can any heterosexual man dislike Maxim?

  260. 260
    Otto Man says:

    And GOP —Kerry shot 20 people or so while AT WAR —you know, where they train you to fight and kill other human beings.

    It’s too bad Cheney had “other priorities” during Vietnam, or he might have learned how to handle guns properly. Was there anything in his five deferments that filled the void?

  261. 261
    Otto Man says:

    Ha ha, liberal. Have fun with Janeane when you guys meet up in Vancouver, just leave Ann and I Texas.

    Wait, I thought conservatives hated gay cowboy stories?

  262. 262
    GOP4Me says:

    When Republicans lose a national election, should I expect a rash of mass suicides since it’s incoveivable to them that they may be wrong?

    No, I’ll concede that every once in a while you lefties manage to dupe the American people into voting for you. But I don’t see that happening this November.

    So when you walk down your block in your perfectly bred neighborhood and see half the cars with Bush Sucks stickers, does that mean they were bred improperly?

    You need ME to tell you about the dysfunctionality of the American family unit?

    Most of “Hollywood” comes from the midwest, dumbshit. They were bred “properly” and decided to leave you fucks back in the middle of flyover country…to inbreed.

    Most of the ones I know of come from New York and New Jersey. Hardly flyover country to me, but I suppose if you live in Bermuda and commute to LA it might count.

  263. 263
    Pooh says:

    You’re the one that brought Maxim into this, Pooh. How can any heterosexual man dislike Maxim?

    Too much clothing, and I was speaking about your stated fixation on gunpr0n anyway.

  264. 264
    SeesThroughIt says:

    You’re the one that brought Maxim into this, Pooh. How can any heterosexual man dislike Maxim?

    Because it’s subliterate retardation with pictorials designed to make C-list “celebrities” look like mannequins dipped in grease. Pass. If I want to look at porn, I’ll look at porn. If I want to look at airbrushing waifs…well, I can just walk up the hall to the art department of the magazine I’m working for and ask them to airbrush something.

    So, basically, I’m not surprised you like the magazine.

  265. 265
    GOP4Me says:

    It’s too bad Cheney had “other priorities” during Vietnam, or he might have learned how to handle guns properly. Was there anything in his five deferments that filled the void?

    He did have a family and stuff. I’m not saying it was the right thing to do, but can you honestly say you might not do the same thing if you were drafted?

    Speaking of Cheney, here’s the latest news. Read it and weep, you lefty schadenfreudians:

    http://news.yahoo.com/fc/US/Bush_Administration

  266. 266
    capelza says:

    GOP4me…five deferments. Five. There were a whole lot of young men with little babies back home who went. I’m sure they had other priorities, too. Still they went, whether they agreed with the war or not.

  267. 267
    GOP4Me says:

    Too much clothing,

    Agreed. But life is imperfect, and I don’t want little kids seeing Jennifer Love Hewitt’s birthday suit.

    Because it’s subliterate retardation with pictorials designed to make C-list “celebrities” look like mannequins dipped in grease. Pass. If I want to look at porn, I’ll look at porn. If I want to look at airbrushing waifs…well, I can just walk up the hall to the art department of the magazine I’m working for and ask them to airbrush something.

    Left-wing killjoy. And you wonder why you guys lose every election above dogcatcher.

  268. 268
    RobR says:

    He did have a family and stuff. I’m not saying it was the right thing to do, but can you honestly say you might not do the same thing if you were drafted?

    I would. But then again, I think the public good is best served by saving Social Security by whittling away one claimant at a time, and keeping children safe by converting dangerous Old Crow bourbon into pee.

    Good Lord… I’m the Vice President!

  269. 269
    tb says:

    Ann Coulter? Hot? I didn’t realize anorexic trannies were all the rage these days.

    Don’t judge him. If GOP likes to fuck ugly men, that’s his business. I’d like him to keep it to himself just like the rest of you (the image of this heaving 350-lb. behemoth slobbering all over Mr. Coulter’s Skeletor-like visage makes us ALL want to vomit), but we are a party of tolerance. Sex is for everyone, not just the beautiful and likable.

  270. 270
    GOP4Me says:

    GOP4me…five deferments. Five. There were a whole lot of young men with little babies back home who went. I’m sure they had other priorities, too. Still they went, whether they agreed with the war or not.

    I know. My father was among them. Like I said, I don’t support the decision, but he’s only human and it was understandable. I’m sure a lot of those young men would rather not have gone, too, so why criticize someone else for taking a deferment you’d take if you could get it?

  271. 271
    GOP4Me says:

    Good Lord… I’m the Vice President!

    I’m glad to see you’re not taking this too seriously either. It’s only politics, man.

    Don’t judge him. If GOP likes to fuck ugly men, that’s his business. I’d like him to keep it to himself just like the rest of you (the image of this heaving 350-lb. behemoth slobbering all over Mr. Coulter’s Skeletor-like visage makes us ALL want to vomit), but we are a party of tolerance. Sex is for everyone, not just the beautiful and likable

    .

    Projection of sexual inadequacy is an oft-recurring neurosis in liberal circles, I’ve noticed. It goes hand in hand with your fixation on sexuality, for some reason. I’ve never understood it.

  272. 272
    jaime says:

    Most of the ones I know of come from New York and New Jersey

    That’s because you’re purposefully ignorant.

    Elijah Wood, Ashton Kutcher, John Wayne, Tom Arnold, Don Ameche, Laura Flynn Boyle, Kate Mulgrew are from Iowa.

    Marlon Brand is from Omaha. Orson Wells and Spencer Tracy are from Wisconsin. Steven Spielberg was born in Cincinatti. Paul Newman is from Ohio as well. These people weren’t born in Beverly Hills. Just as all movies aren’t made in “Hollywood”

  273. 273
    SeesThroughIt says:

    Sex is for everyone, not just the beautiful and likable.

    I fully agree. My view on it has always been, “Whatever you want to do, as long as you’re both consenting adults, knock yourselves out.” It’s one of the many, many reasons why I can’t stoop to being a Republican–I can’t bring myself to persecute people for the sex they have.

    why criticize someone else for taking a deferment

    Because he took five deferments (not “a” deferment), and has subsequently made a political career out of being a warmongering jaggov. Dick looooooooves war…he’s just too much of a pussy to actually, you know, fight one.

  274. 274
    rilkefan says:

    That girl who played Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

    SMG is certainly conventionally pretty, but there’s hardly a grown-up actress in the Buffyverse who isn’t more attractive and (says rumor) gracious. (Not to say she’s not great in the role.)

  275. 275
    jaime says:

    And you wonder why you guys lose every election above dogcatcher.

    Erased memories from this November already?

  276. 276
    capelza says:

    Because, GOP4me, you who are so quick to defame libs, one of those ones who went was my husband. He had the chance to go to Canada (paid for by his military family of all things) and went instead into the Marines. Little boy number one was born while his father was getting shot at in a far away land.

    A whole of the boys who would liked to have gotten ONE deferment were not able to.

    Yet, my former baby blue Marine is a liberal. He finds people like Dick Cheney and his war-mogering ways disgusting, especially in light of the FIVE deferments. I hate to use the term “chickenhawk”, but the husband is not.

  277. 277
    capelza says:

    Brad Pitt is from Springfield, MO…:D

  278. 278
    tb says:

    Projection of sexual inadequacy is an oft-recurring neurosis in liberal circles, I’ve noticed. It goes hand in hand with your fixation on sexuality, for some reason. I’ve never understood it.

    You’re the one who brought it up. Pardon me if I don’t want to have to imagine your fat ass slapping against that hag’s withered groin over lunch. Anyway, I thought we were supposed to be a bunch of hedonist libertines who fuck too much. Get your talking points straight.

  279. 279
    jaime says:

    Brad Pitt is from Springfield, MO…:D

    But I though all actors climbed out of the deepest reaches of hell and onto Hollywood Boulevard born with a need to turn midwestern children gay.

  280. 280
    HH says:

    Lawrence O’Donnell and Jane Hamser, meet Chris Ruddy and Joe Farah

  281. 281
    HH says:

    “Rush can spread rumors about the murder of Vince Foster all day…”

    “I only wish Rush would spread baseless rumors about Vince Foster on his show instead of focusing on golf and Cindy Sheehan.” – John Cole

    Damn I forgot the link though. Can you give it to all of us?

  282. 282

    The way I look at it…

    The Republicans have been for years saying that Kennedy must have been drunk and that is why he didn’t report his accident. They have no proof Kennedy was drunk, just speculation as to why he didn’t report the incident right away.

    I think it’s fair game for the Dems to say the same about the Cheney incident.

    I have a pretty good feeling you wouldn’t be making a post like this about the Kennedy situation so stop being a hypocrite.

  283. 283
    GOP4Me says:

    Elijah Wood, Ashton Kutcher, John Wayne, Tom Arnold, Don Ameche, Laura Flynn Boyle, Kate Mulgrew are from Iowa.

    Some of them are also quite conservative (see if you can guess whom). I was trying to do you a favor by not mentioning the ones from Iowa and Nebraska.

    Not all movies are made in Hollywood, true. I hear Bollywood is doing quite well. Also, Clerks was made in Leonardo, NJ and Shymalan makes all his flicks near Philly. What’s your point?

    SMG is certainly conventionally pretty, but there’s hardly a grown-up actress in the Buffyverse who isn’t more attractive and (says rumor) gracious. (Not to say she’s not great in the role.)

    To each his own. And we wren’t talking about her personality, just her politics.

  284. 284
    neil says:

    Here’s another take. Even if Cheney was totally plastered, there is no way it will ever be proven in any meaningful sense. So John is wrong that Howard Dean will be talking about it. He would talk about it, I’m sure, if there was any way to substantiate the claim. Unless at least two of the witnesses change their tune and testify under oath that Cheney was drunk, though, there will always be a reasonable doubt.

    On the other hand, I do think it is _reasonable to believe_ that he was drunk. A track record of alcohol-related incidents longer than probably anyone here has, combined with the token confession in the interview (which would probably be helpful in court in case someone _did_ come forward and say he was drunk), and especially the extremely suspicious timing, I think puts Jane well within her rights to make a statement like that. No, it’s not prudent, lawyerly or particularly defensible, but, I mean, have you ever read a blog before?

  285. 285
    GOP4Me says:

    To each his own. And we wren’t talking about her personality, just her politics.

    Speaking of which, I just started watching “Simone.” so far, so good. Quite apropos, too.

    Smell you jerks later.

  286. 286
    Lines says:

    You know, its a good thing he’s the vice-President of the United States and not just Joe Schmo, otherwise he might have been in trouble.

    Its good to be the king.

  287. 287

    BTW, in other news the Bush administration is being investigated for about 10 to 20 other things, such as Cheney’s role in leaking classified information through Libby Scooter, their connections to Abramoff, the Justice Dept. investigating itself for improper action during advising the Prez on the warrantless wiretap issues, the Katrina response and massive waste of funding and supplies, the UN report on treatment of detainees at Gitmo, the release of more Abu Ghraib photos and reports of more deaths that had occurred there related to the torturing of prisoners, and lessee what else? oh yeah, general incompetence across the board. Just FYI…

  288. 288
    Pooh says:

    Its good to be the king.

    You mean Unitary Excecutive For Life, right?

  289. 289
    Broken says:

    John Cole says:

    “Ted Kennedy WAS drunk, drove off a bridge, and left a girl to drown while he ran nd hid from the police.”

    As with Cheney, there is no evidence that Kennedy was drunk. The only real difference is that Cheney’s victim survived.

  290. 290

    Did John honestly say that “Ted Kennedy WAS drunk”?

    Jesus christ, I didn’t know that he went as far as to say that.

    Guess my analysis was even more spot on that I thought.

    Way to be a hypocrite, John…

  291. 291

    It’s similar to the “Roosevelt knew the Japanese were going to attack and let Pearl Harbor happen!”,

    Hate to break it to you but FDR did know the attack was going to happen. We broke the Japanese’s secret naval codes a month before Pearl Harbor and FDR also asked his advisors a few months before PH what he would need to do policy wise to make Japan view us as a grave threat to them.

    All the evidence points to FDR knowing.

  292. 292
    JWeidner says:

    Killing Communists was a noble tradition for over 100 years in this country. Democrats used to partake in it, too.

    Man. Talk about selective retelling of history. You must be ignoring the years that those Commie Russians were our allies in WW2. Or the fact that we’re just dying to jump in bed with those Commie Chinese, so long as they’re willing to buy our stuff.

    The fact is, we identify some Communist countries as “bad” as it suits our political/economic needs. Others get to be “good” on the same basis. It has little to do with their actual status as communists

  293. 293
    Richard 23 says:

    Come on, Disenfranchised Voter! Next thing you’ll be saying is that the Gulf of Tonkin incident was a lie. No wonder they don’t let you vote! ;-)

  294. 294
    Steve says:

    I think TDV is overstating the case somewhat. Here is a useful starting point for anyone who is curious about the Pearl Harbor debate.

    Personally

  295. 295

    I just dropped by “Just A Minute.” You righties here have a long way to go to match the acid spit out over there. Man, “alternative universe theater of hate” comes to mind.

    But I did learn something. Because of an Executive Order in March 2003 VP Cheney has the power to classify things, and therefore the right to classify things from classified to unclassified. So Cheney just “classified” the alcoholic haze of last Saturday.

    Read it here, read it now before it gets classified.

  296. 296
    Steve says:

    My comment got cut off. I was going to say that personally, I have no problem believing that FDR was looking for a way to get into WWII, but I kind of doubt he felt that sacrificing all our battleships in the Pacific was the best way to get it done.

  297. 297
    JimAllen says:

    “Death threat”, GOP4Me?

    You *are* a looney.

  298. 298
    GOP4Me says:

    Or the fact that we’re just dying to jump in bed with those Commie Chinese, so long as they’re willing to buy our stuff.

    See if you can spot the contradictions in this sentence. See if that gives you a hint as to why your entire post is invalid.

  299. 299

    I’ll have to check out the link you posted Steve, I’m willing to see arguments against my belief. I do always approach issues with an open-mind and then are careful deliberation, take my position.

    The evidence I have seen coupled with the fact that FDR was looking for a way to enter WWII and the fact that the country was about 85% against getting involved in WWII before PH, leads me to believe that FDR wanted an attack in order to convince the country to get involved in WWII.

    I am not making a judgement on whether this was the right call, as Hitler was obviously a danger to the entire world and getting involved in WWII was basically a necessity. However, I think the belief that FDR knew of and even provoked the attack stands on more solid ground than the belief that FDR was taken by surprise.

  300. 300
  301. 301
    GOP4Me says:

    You are a looney

    .

    Well, seeing as how my only interaction with you is that you asked for my head to get pulled off, I’ll reserve my own judgment on that matter.

  302. 302
    Broken says:

    “Steve Says:

    My comment got cut off. I was going to say that personally, I have no problem believing that FDR was looking for a way to get into WWII, but I kind of doubt he felt that sacrificing all our battleships in the Pacific was the best way to get it done.”

    The Navy sent a “War Alert” to Pacific commanders to be prepared for conflict with Japan. This was in Oct 1941, six weeks before Pearl Harbor.

    The surprise was that Japan attacked Hawaii instead of the Phillipines.

  303. 303
    GOP4Me says:

    The evidence I have seen coupled with the fact that FDR was looking for a way to enter WWII and the fact that the country was about 85% against getting involved in WWII before PH, leads me to believe that FDR wanted an attack in order to convince the country to get involved in WWII.

    I agree. FDR was a very cynical man. Ever wonder why the carriers werren’t IN Pearl Harbor at the time of the attack?

    I am not making a judgement on whether this was the right call, as Hitler was obviously a danger to the entire world and getting involved in WWII was basically a necessity. However, I think the belief that FDR knew of and even provoked the attack stands on more solid ground than the belief that FDR was taken by surprise.

    We should’ve gotten in the war sooner, then carried it on longer until Stalin was out of the picture.

    My $.02.

  304. 304
    JimAllen says:

    I did not ask for it, GOP4Me, only hoped that you’d do it yourself.

    “Republican Stupidity”

  305. 305
    John Cole says:

    Did John honestly say that “Ted Kennedy WAS drunk”?

    Jesus christ, I didn’t know that he went as far as to say that.

    Guess my analysis was even more spot on that I thought.

    Way to be a hypocrite, John…

    There are numerous witnesses who testified Kennedy was drinking all day long, to include ted kennedy claiming he had several rum and coke before driving.

    Cheney claimed he had a beer before lunch, five hours earlier, and others have claimed repeatedly no one in the hunting party was drinking.

    Using the currently available evidence, there is nothing to charges Cheney was drunk at the time of the accident, while there is plenty that Kennedy was.

    Clearly, hypocrite means anyone who disagrees with you, and not the dictionary definition.

  306. 306
    Paul L. says:

    How long will it take you/the press to turn on the poor victim Mr. Whittington if he comes out of the Hospital and criticizes the coverage of the hunting accident.

    I can only speak for myself, but I would say about 10 seconds. If Mr. Whittington helps the Chimpy McHaliburton administration in any way, shape or form then he is as evil as they are and he deserves what is coming to him.

    Is that the answer you were looking for Paul L?

    Yep, This is a parody right?

  307. 307
    GOP4Me says:

    I did not ask for it, GOP4Me, only hoped that you’d do it yourself.

    I am highly unmotivated to perform your request. Not to mention that it’s physically impossible. Have you even CONSIDERED the physcis of such a thing? Of course not.

    “Republican Stupidity”

    So much for the reality-based community. YOU can’t even understand how a man couldn’t have the leverage, arm-strength, or neurochemical wherewithal to yank his on head off. Think about this for a minute, please. William Pennonce said, “If you think twice before you speak once you will speak twice the better for it.” Apply that reasoning next time.

  308. 308

    John, you made a claim of knowledge. You didn’t say you think he was drunk, you said he WAS drunk. Making a claim of knowledge is different than stating your belief.

    So you know Teddy was drunk. What’s your proof?

  309. 309
    John Cole says:

    John, you made a claim of knowledge. You didn’t say you think he was drunk, you said he WAS drunk. Making a claim of knowledge is different than stating your belief.

    So you know Teddy was drunk. What’s your proof?

    Oh, jesus fucking christ.

    You are now the front-runner in the pedant of the year award.

  310. 310
    Pooh says:

    TDV, John offered what he considers proof. While there are competing narratives, and you may choose to disagree, his isn’t exactly outlandish. (I might add that the evidence would probably be sufficient for a civil trial, though not neccesarily compelled. At a certain point you have to respect that reasonable people will disagree with you on your intepretation of the facts.)

  311. 311

    No, John offered evidence. He didn’t offer proof. Proof isn’t subjective, evidence that is “beyond a reasonable doubt” is.

    The people who claim that they know Kennedy was drunk are just as bad as the people who claim that they know Cheney was drunk.

  312. 312

    You are now the front-runner in the pedant of the year award.

    Oh you’re just jealous of my logic skills. Philosophy is a favorite of mine and it sure helps in situations like this.

    =)

  313. 313
    jaime says:

    We should’ve gotten in the war sooner, then carried it on longer until Stalin was out of the picture.

    We would have if it weren’t for those cowardly America hating Republicans.

    And the Stalin idea is just stupid and the reason why I don’t hesitate to use the chickenhaw label. Right. Marching on to Moscow from Germany. How enormously dumb. Thank God the people running the Iraq war are slighly less stupid than you.

  314. 314
    Pooh says:

    TDV, when you start talking in legalisms, it’s probably time to Put the Keyboard Down! and Back Away from the Computer Screen! With you hands on your head. Or on a doobie, though in that case, how come you aren’t sharing.

  315. 315

    I haven’t smoked pot in over 6 months…

    : \

    I’m not saying that it is ridiculous for John to believe that Teddy was drunk. Hell, even I think he was drunk.

    But I certainly don’t think any of us can say that Teddy WAS drunk, and even worse, say that he WAS and then go on to say that people who say Cheney was drunk are being totally outlandish.

  316. 316
    Pooh says:

    I agree with John, Pedant of the Year. (Well, you and my mother…how’s that for a pair to draw too…)

  317. 317
    Steve says:

    The Navy sent a “War Alert” to Pacific commanders to be prepared for conflict with Japan. This was in Oct 1941, six weeks before Pearl Harbor.

    The surprise was that Japan attacked Hawaii instead of the Phillipines.

    Well, that’s a pretty big surprise, wouldn’t you say? I don’t think anyone denies that FDR knew Japan was a serious threat, and that he consciously decided against preemptive action. But the allegations that FDR knew about Pearl Harbor are quite specific and seek to establish that we decoded messages revealing the precise hour and location of the strike. I think the proof of this is far from conclusive.

    I agree. FDR was a very cynical man. Ever wonder why the carriers werren’t IN Pearl Harbor at the time of the attack?

    Ever wonder why all eight of the battleships WERE in Pearl Harbor at the time of the attack? Surely a cynical FDR could have saved one or two without arousing suspicion.

  318. 318
    tb says:

    Right. Marching on to Moscow from Germany. How enormously dumb.

    Come on, you would pass up a chance to get a million or so Americans and few million more Kazakh peasants killed? What are you, some kind of liberal pussy? It’s not like we could have a “cold” war and just wait them out for 40 years or so.

  319. 319
    ppGaz says:

    while there is plenty that Kennedy was.

    But there is no actual evidence other than Kennedy’s statement that he was anywhere near the car when it went into the water.

    At least one very good investigator has made one very good case for the idea that Kennedy was lying, and that he was not in the car or at the accident scene at all; that he got out of the car and walked to the hotel, whereupon his passenger took the car and drove it off the bridge. It’s the only explanation that fits the facts and the timeline.

    Unfortunately, at the time it happened, nobody bothered to connect these dots. Kennedy and his pals apparently calculated that saying he was in the car and tried to save the passenger was a more palatable story than saying he left her to drive off down a dark road and over an unlighted bridge with no guard rails. The latter is probably true, the former is almost certainly not true.

    Ref: Bill Kurtis’ investigation. By far the best analysis of the case I’ve ever seen.

  320. 320
    jaime says:

    It’s a great thing to sacrifice the lives of a million people in theory and know you’ll never have to leave the safety of your bag of Cheetos.

    Thank goodness people like GOP4Me relegate their aggression to giving dirty looks to the suspicious Arabs at the train station and not making decisions like an Allied invasion of Moscow.

  321. 321
    SeesThroughIt says:

    Right. Marching on to Moscow from Germany. How enormously dumb.

    Come on, you would pass up a chance to get a million or so Americans and few million more Kazakh peasants killed? What are you, some kind of liberal pussy? It’s not like we could have a “cold” war and just wait them out for 40 years or so.

    Exactly! I mean, marching from Germany to Moscow worked out great for the German army, right? Why couldn’t we do the same?

  322. 322
    Steve says:

    You, too, can fight against Islamic extremism by republishing Danish cartoons on your blog, by denouncing liberals as traitors on the Internet, or by putting a Rick Santorum bumper sticker on your car. It’s fast and easy and it avoids that whole bloody mess.

  323. 323
    jaime says:

    “If you think twice before you speak once you will speak twice the better for it.” Apply that reasoning next time.

    March on Moscow? Idiot.

  324. 324
    rilkefan says:

    by republishing Danish cartoons on your blog, by denouncing liberals as traitors on the Internet

    Very different acts – the former makes a point about free speech in a liberal, secular state; the latter is just dumb.

  325. 325
    Steve says:

    Republishing the Danish cartoons on your blog makes no point at all about free speech, not when the adverse consequences of the speech will be felt by others far removed.

    It’s courageous for a European newspaper to make a point about free speech when they know they may be facing protestors outside their door, complaints to the management, and so forth. Sitting safe and sound at your computer desk posting cartoons in your webspace makes no comparable point. It’s rather like “showing solidarity” with voters who brave violence in Iraq by waving a purple finger at a tightly-guarded speech.

    It would be like me announcing that, by this brave blog comment, I show the victims of genocide in Darfur that I stand with them! In other words, it is an utterly valueless gesture.

  326. 326
    Pooh says:

    putting a Rick Santorum bumper sticker on your car.

    Because if you don’t support Rick, the troops will become obsolete with the first generation of manimal warriors.

  327. 327
    tb says:

    Exactly! I mean, marching from Germany to Moscow worked out great for the German army, right? Why couldn’t we do the same?

    Right! Right! Because unlike the Germans, we really ARE invincible!

  328. 328
    Pb says:

    John Cole, ppGaz, TDV, Pooh, Gop4Me, Al Maviva, et al.:

    Regarding Chappaquiddick, I’ve just gotta say it for myself at least once:

    WERE YOU THERE?

    :)

  329. 329
    ppGaz says:

    I wasn’t at the Nicole Brown murder either, but I think I know what happened.

  330. 330
    GTinMN says:

    How can any heterosexual man dislike Maxim?

    “Who among us does not love NASCAR?”

    If GOP4Me isn’t actually DougJ, then he’s out DougJing DougJ, and I say Bravo! Whoever he is, he oughta be writing for the Colbert Report, such brilliantly woven tapestries of bullshit talking points from the past couple of decades.

  331. 331

    I wasn’t at the Nicole Brown murder either, but I think I know what happened.

    Oooooooooooooooooohhhhhhhh SNAP!

  332. 332
    rilkefan says:

    Republishing the Danish cartoons on your blog makes no point at all about free speech, not when the adverse consequences of the speech will be felt by others far removed.

    Right, people in SA are lining up to read my blog. It’s a lot more likely somebody unhinged will read it and take offense at my take on Shaker furniture or Elizabeth Bishop’s early poems or people having loud sex next door and track me down. Of course putting up the cartoons will also annoy people like you who are confused on this issue, so that’s in addition to the free speech aspect.

  333. 333
    ppGaz says:

    As you know, TDV, we are still looking for the real killer.

  334. 334

    I think he’s on the 18th hole…

  335. 335
    ppGaz says:

    “Who among us does not love NASCAR?”

    Is this a slap at car enthusiasts? Because we gearheads are tired of being treated like second class citizens.

    One day we will rise up in righteous indignation.

    We’ll form Focus on the Family Car, and reinvent politics. Horsepower, and family values. An unstoppable combination.

  336. 336
    JWeidner says:

    So much for the reality-based community. YOU can’t even understand how a man couldn’t have the leverage, arm-strength, or neurochemical wherewithal to yank his on head off. Think about this for a minute, please. William Pennonce said, “If you think twice before you speak once you will speak twice the better for it.” Apply that reasoning next time.

    uh huh…

    Well – we’ve got about 30 more seconds. Any more cucoo yap yap?

  337. 337
    DougJ says:

    Do you know how silly all of this looks to the terrorists? Their leaders behead people and they applaud. They think it’s funny that we’re upset that one our leaders got wasted and shot a friend.

    The media coverage of this story lends aid and comfort to the insurgency. I bet David Gregory would feel differently if he were beheaded by a terrorist. Then he’d understand how silly this story is.

  338. 338
    DougJ says:

    YOU can’t even understand how a man couldn’t have the leverage, arm-strength, or neurochemical wherewithal to yank his on head off.

    You stole that from that scene in Meet The Parents where they talk about the cat and the toilet seat, didn’t you?

  339. 339
    Broken says:

    [QUOTE]Broken said:

    The Navy sent a “War Alert” to Pacific commanders to be prepared for conflict with Japan. This was in Oct 1941, six weeks before Pearl Harbor.

    The surprise was that Japan attacked Hawaii instead of the Phillipines.

    Steve said:

    Well, that’s a pretty big surprise, wouldn’t you say? I don’t think anyone denies that FDR knew Japan was a serious threat, and that he consciously decided against preemptive action. But the allegations that FDR knew about Pearl Harbor are quite specific and seek to establish that we decoded messages revealing the precise hour and location of the strike. I think the proof of this is far from conclusive.[/QUOTE]

    I doubt FDR knew Japan would attack Pearl Harbor. Certainly, FDR did not anticipate the effectiveness of Japan’s attack, nor did anyone else in the US. The “White Man’s superiority” was firmly fixed in FDR’s mind as well as the minds of the vast majority of US citizens.

    This is not a denigration of FDR, he was simply a man of his times. He was, in fact, the best President of the 20th century, based on the positive effect of his administration on US fortunes.

  340. 340
    GOP4Me says:

    And the Stalin idea is just stupid and the reason why I don’t hesitate to use the chickenhaw label. Right. Marching on to Moscow from Germany. How enormously dumb. Thank God the people running the Iraq war are slighly less stupid than you

    Considering how many American lives and how many problems we suffered during the subsequent 40 years, I think a few casualties more at the time would’ve been an acceptable sacrifice. Heck, we could’ve lost 0 men in WWII, if we’d made nice with the Japanese and Germans and let them overrun Europe and the Pacific. Why not? Even a war with 1 KIA is a bloodbath to the guy who gets it.

    Come on, you would pass up a chance to get a million or so Americans and few million more Kazakh peasants killed? What are you, some kind of liberal pussy? It’s not like we could have a “cold” war and just wait them out for 40 years or so

    Tell that to the millions of Koreans, Chinese, Afghans, Vietnamese, Iranis, Iraqis, Latin Americans, Africans, and Eastern Europeans who died while we were waiting for the Soviet economy to implode. I’m sure the lives of a couple thousand hypothetical Americans are more important than those peoples’ lives to you, but I think spreading freedom would’ve benefited us more in the long run. It’s always a trade-off, and it’s never fair to the people who die, but if we’re ever going to have peace and freedom it’s a price some of us have to pay. The tree of liberty is periodically watered with the blood of patriots.

    Right! Right! Because unlike the Germans, we really ARE invincible!

    No, but we had nukes and the Commies didn’t. Just like MacArthur wanted to do in Manchuria. He and Curtis LeMay and Patton could’ve won the Cold War in its cradle if the Democrats in Washington hadn’t stopped them.

    If GOP4Me isn’t actually DougJ, then he’s out DougJing DougJ, and I say Bravo! Whoever he is, he oughta be writing for the Colbert Report, such brilliantly woven tapestries of bullshit talking points from the past couple of decades.

    I’m NOT DougJ! I hate him, he’s made it impossible for true conservatives to post without getting automatically labeled as spoofs. I hate that liberal troll, and I hope he gets IP-banned from every blog in the Internet.

    You stole that from that scene in Meet The Parents where they talk about the cat and the toilet seat, didn’t you?

    Go f-ck yourself, DougJ. I don’t need crappy chick flicks and De Niro career-drain-circlers to get my jokes. Those come from having a brain, something you and the other moonbats lack. You do have a gift for tricking others, but that hardly counts as intelligence- more like alack of intelligence on their part. Liberals are quite gullible, as you know.

  341. 341
    Pb says:

    GOP4Me,

    I think a few casualties more at the time would’ve been an acceptable sacrifice

    Go right ahead, no one’s stopping you.

    I have a similar rule, by the way–anyone in favor of a draft should immediately be drafted.

  342. 342
    rilkefan says:

    more like alack of intelligence

    How about

    more like alack and alas of intelligence

    ?

    Yeah, it’s late, even on the West Coast.

  343. 343
    Steve says:

    Well sure, it would have been better to take out the Soviet Union early on. It would have been better if Hitler’s mom had strangled him in his crib, too, but I don’t really blame her for not seizing the opportunity. The public was ready in 1945 for the war to be over, there was no realistic way to continue, no way to imagine how the next 40 years would unfold, so why waste your time fantasizing?

  344. 344
    tb says:

    if we’re ever going to have peace and freedom it’s a price some of us have to pay. The tree of liberty is periodically watered with the blood of patriots.

    So when are you enlisting?

  345. 345
    tb says:

    If GOP4Me isn’t actually DougJ

    Please. DougJ is a really smart satirist. G is an apparently shameless douchebag.

  346. 346
    Pb says:

    This just in, from a recently declassified PDB:

    Dick Cheney Determined To Attack In The United States

    If only we had acted on that intelligence sooner…

    (h/t firedoglake :))

  347. 347

    Thanks for the advice.

    Two words: Pajamas Media

  348. 348
    Helena Montan says:

    “but you don’t get to go make shit up, as has been done here.”

    The GOP does it all the damn time–why not the oppostiion also? Liberals/progressives are kind of hamstrung, being the only ones who are expected to stick to known facts.

  349. 349
    Gray says:

    “Considering how many American lives and how many problems we suffered during the subsequent 40 years, I think a few casualties more at the time would’ve been an acceptable sacrifice.”

    Hehehe, another keyboard commando who learned strategy by playing “Risk”. G0P, how old are you, 12? Maybe you have some relatives who actually served during WWII, in Korea or Vietnam. Talk to them about your ideas. Heck, it’s incredible how frivolously people who’ve never been in the military talk about the possibility of several tens of thousand casualties. No surprise that they are so eager to sacrify 2000+ troops for the dim chance of establishing a US friendly government in an islamic country.

  350. 350
    GOP4Me says:

    I have a similar rule, by the way—anyone in favor of a draft should immediately be drafted

    If my country calls me, sure. But right now, I think we’re winning in Iraq and Afghanistan, so my presence would be superfluous. I’m needed on the home front, winning hearts and minds here so that if there ever IS a draft we don’t have to win them among those already conscripted and overseas. I’m sure the idea is too complicated for your tiny liberal mind, so let me rephrase it for you: I love America so much I try to spread love for it wherever I am. Hopefully, that part’ll sink in.

    Yeah, it’s late, even on the West Coast.

    It was late when I typed it, too. But I guess it’s fair to say that there’s a vaguely Shakespearean quality to every debate on the Internet. Words, words, words.

    Well sure, it would have been better to take out the Soviet Union early on. It would have been better if Hitler’s mom had strangled him in his crib, too, but I don’t really blame her for not seizing the opportunity. The public was ready in 1945 for the war to be over, there was no realistic way to continue, no way to imagine how the next 40 years would unfold, so why waste your time fantasizing?

    True, and if they’d never crucified Jesus maybe He’d still be hanging around here eating tea and crumpets with us instead of teaching Einstein about Bell’s Theorem in Heaven or converting the peoples of Alpha Centauri to His Truth or doing whatever it is He does while He’s waiting for us to finally form a single world government and reclaim all of the Holy Land for the children of Israel. (If that sounds blasphemous, I apologize. It’s been a very short night, and I’m off to work again.) And probably if Al Gore had been President, not only would Saddam still be in power but Mullah Mohammed Omar as well. Speculation is always pointless, but as I said before and I’ll say again, online debate is NOT aimed at finding any consensus or even necessarily discussing anything important. Current events are every bit as fantastic to peons like us as past and future events are, so what difference does it make if we talk about Cheney’s hunting accident versus the War of 1812 versus the great Intergalactic Cyborg Revolt of 3987? All of it’s speculation, fantasy, and tiny black pixels on your screen. It doesn’t even rise to the level of a bar-fight without the risk of getting nailed by a bottle, because that would at least be calling it some form of genuine debate. All’s I know is I love Bush and Cheney, I don’t think half the people here are half as liberal as they pretend they are, and I don’t care- I’ll debate their left-wing kook personas and they’ll play their roles accordingly. (Now I’m thinking of that nihilistic Macbeth rant about “Life is but a walking Shadow/ A poor player who struts and frets his hour upon the stage/ And then is heard no more”; f-cking rilkefan! That’s so annoying! I’ll be resurrecting Shakespeare quotes from high school in my head all f-cking day long!)

  351. 351
    GOP4Me says:

    Please. DougJ is a really smart satirist. G is an apparently shameless douchebag.

    Nevermind everything I said in the last post. This really hurts my feelings, Tuberculosis. Getting compared unfavorably with a dishonest leftist plant is a slap in the face the likes of which I have never experienced. If you were a real person and not someone’s amusing portrayal of a leftist kook in the tiny amusement-box I’m currently typing away at, I might actually get angry at you.

    Pray tell, Lunger, in your opinion is it even POSSIBLE for a douchebag to have feelings of shame and remorse? Must you anthropomorphize EVERY item in your spouse’s toiletry collection? Is this prerequisite to entry into the reality-based community? I know you liberals have many proud Wiccans and neo-Pagans among your ranks, but I had no idea it required assigning a spirit to every object you encountered, and then denigrating that spirit. How do you keep track of all the gods this must entail, you heathen?

    (BTW, tb, that’s a good post. You almost convinced me for a minute you actually believed this left-wing nonsense. Almost.)

  352. 352
    GOP4Me says:

    Hehehe, another keyboard commando who learned strategy by playing “Risk”. G0P, how old are you, 12? Maybe you have some relatives who actually served during WWII, in Korea or Vietnam. Talk to them about your ideas. Heck, it’s incredible how frivolously people who’ve never been in the military talk about the possibility of several tens of thousand casualties. No surprise that they are so eager to sacrify 2000+ troops for the dim chance of establishing a US friendly government in an islamic country.

    I’m sorry, did you have something to say in this post besides Daily Kos talking points? Because if we wanted to enlighten ourselves with those, we could’ve just gone over to Daily Kos and read them.

  353. 353
    GOP4Me says:

    True, and if they’d never crucified Jesus maybe He’d still be hanging around here eating tea and crumpets with us instead of teaching Einstein about Bell’s Theorem in Heaven or converting the peoples of Alpha Centauri to His Truth or doing whatever it is He does while He’s waiting for us to finally form a single world government and reclaim all of the Holy Land for the children of Israel

    God, it WAS a short night last night. I forgot that Einstein was Jewish. So it’s extremely unlikely that Jesus is talking to him about anything.

    Sorry for rambling on about it. Very tired. Must work now, will be back after many hours of work.

  354. 354
    Jim Allen says:

    Isn’t he great, folks? He’ll be here all week!

    Please, try the veal, and don’t forget to tip your waiter!

  355. 355
    Gray says:

    “I’m sorry, did you have something to say in this post besides Daily Kos talking points?”
    Hehehe, a guy who’s got his prejudices from powerline is accusing me to sound like a Kossack. Good joke.
    And I’m not surprised that they call you a keyboard commando at dkos, 2 :P

  356. 356
    Jim Allen says:

    How is it that all these right-wing extremists get copies of the Daily Kos talking points (and, for that matter, copies of the Gay Agenda), and I can’t even find the link to sign up for them?

  357. 357
    capelza says:

    Lordy, I do hesitate to use the word “chickenhawk”, or rather I did…what with the new drumbeat to “nuke Iran” or “invade Iran” (with what army?) I have been seeing on the web…if any of these cocksuckers (pardon my French) don’t sign up, I’ll most likely get arrested under that new “annoying on the internet” law.

    GOP4me says in one post that deferments are okay, and then in another that if he got drafted he’d go. Which is it? And why wait for a draft, what’s one more casualty, huh? Not much, I guess, unless the casualty might be him. He is the epitome of the Keyboard Kommando. And no, I don’t get my talking points from Kos. They are just an intinctive response to oppose anything that comes from such casual, vicarious killers.

  358. 358
    ppGaz says:

    Great, now we have GOP4 who is apparently Darrell on crack. So John has gone out and hired himself a new righty ringer who hasn’t been through the rites of passage and continuous lefty smackdown over here. Fine.

    Meanwhile, the Vice President has demonstrated that he can shoot people without warning or provocation and not even get a routine police investigation. It was down in Texas, of course, where they don’t have to obey the laws of the United States.

    This, in a country where we impeached over a blow job.

    So, shooting a guy in the face is less egregious than a blow job. Why am I not surprised?

  359. 359
    Jim Allen says:

    IOKIYAR

  360. 360
    ppGaz says:

    Right …. I forgot.

  361. 361
    DougJ says:

    Great, now we have GOP4 who is apparently Darrell on crack.

    So you’re saying Darrell is on meth? I guess you’re right — that is more of a Red State drug.

  362. 362
    tb says:

    is it even POSSIBLE for a douchebag to have feelings of shame and remorse?

    You tell me, guy. This is your little wankathon.

  363. 363
    Gray says:

    “So John has gone out and hired himself a new righty ringer who hasn’t been through the rites of passage and continuous lefty smackdown over here.”

    Maybe. Just to keep this discussion fair and balanced, no doubt :D
    But I don’t think this should be a problem for us. Hey, imho these chickenhawks are really funny :D

  364. 364
    Paul L. says:

    ppGaz Says:

    Great, now we have GOP4 who is apparently Darrell on crack. So John has gone out and hired himself a new righty ringer who hasn’t been through the rites of passage and continuous lefty smackdown over here. Fine.

    Meanwhile, the Vice President has demonstrated that he can shoot people without warning or provocation and not even get a routine police investigation. It was down in Texas, of course, where they don’t have to obey the laws of the United States.

    This, in a country where we impeached over a blow job.

    Lefty smackdown? More like lefty circlejerk/echo chamber.
    BTW, Clinton was impeached over perjury. You know the same thing Scooter Libby is changed with.

  365. 365
    Krista says:

    Pray tell, Lunger, in your opinion is it even POSSIBLE for a douchebag to have feelings of shame and remorse? Must you anthropomorphize EVERY item in your spouse’s toiletry collection? Is this prerequisite to entry into the reality-based community? I know you liberals have many proud Wiccans and neo-Pagans among your ranks, but I had no idea it required assigning a spirit to every object you encountered, and then denigrating that spirit. How do you keep track of all the gods this must entail, you heathen?

    Well, at least he’s entertaining, in a frightening kind of way. It’s sort of like an extreme right-wing, off-his-meds paranoid schizophrenic Denis Leary.

  366. 366
    Paul L. says:

    Meanwhile, the Vice President has demonstrated that he can shoot people without warning or provocation and not even get a routine police investigation. It was down in Texas, of course, where they don’t have to obey the laws of the United States.

    This, in a country where we impeached over a blow job.

    Do you remember Cheney pounding on the podium?
    “I did not shoot that man Mr. Whittington!!!”
    Did the blow job occur on someone private property like the Cheney’s hunting accident? Or somewhere more public like the Oval Office?

  367. 367
    tb says:

    Well, at least he’s entertaining, in a frightening kind of way. It’s sort of like an extreme right-wing, off-his-meds paranoid schizophrenic Denis Leary.

    I don’t know, I just see an untalented teenager who’s momma doesn’t give him enough attention. If he’s *not* a teenager then the scenario really gets pathetic and I don’t want to know anything about it.

  368. 368
    DougJ says:

    Did the blow job occur on someone private property like the Cheney’s hunting accident? Or somewhere more public like the Oval Office?

    Paul L — can I use your stuff when I troll around satirizing right-wingers? This one is good. So nonsensical yet so confident, almost chewbacca-defense-like. I wish I’d thought of it myself.

  369. 369
    rilkefan says:

    I forgot that Einstein was Jewish. So it’s extremely unlikely that Jesus is talking to him about anything.

    Uhh, Jesus was a Jew, and liked to hang out with theives and prostitutes – I think think he could handle talking to a landsman physicist.

  370. 370
    rilkefan says:

    “I” before “e” – it’s early on the west coast.

  371. 371
    Paul L. says:

    Paul L—can I use your stuff when I troll around satirizing right-wingers? This one is good. So nonsensical yet so confident, almost chewbacca-defense-like. I wish I’d thought of it myself.

    Ahh, the DougJ “you sound like a parody of a rightwing nut” argument.
    Sure, if I can use the lefty selected/not elected, Bu$hitler, the war is about oil, Swiftboating BS.

    just correct the typing errors.
    i.e.
    Did the blow job occur on someone’s private property like the Cheney’s hunting accident? Or somewhere more public perhaps like the Oval Office?

  372. 372
    DougJ says:

    You’re a good sport, Paul.

  373. 373
    Kimmitt says:

    I think a few casualties more at the time would’ve been an acceptable sacrifice

    Between this and the Cheney discussion, it’s pretty clear that GOP4Me’s an old-fashioned class warrior for the privileged. “Ah, go ahead, send a few million more of the farm kids to die, but let’s keep the deferments in for the important people to make use of.” This would be all right, if he/she weren’t so intent on pretending that this were in the national interest, rather than in the interest of a narrow set of citizens of the country.

  374. 374
    ppGaz says:

    Did the blow job occur on someone private property like the Cheney’s hunting accident?

    As if we needed more evidence that you are a bad caricature of a righty spoofer.

    So, it’s the fact that the blowjob happened on public property that made it important?

    If you wouldn’t mind, could you forward the official rules on blowjobs on Federal property, and in particular, could you get me a list of all the blowjob that have been given in the White House and show how this particular blowjob has special significance to the country? By comparison to the other blowjobs, I mean. I’m saying, this particular blowjob can only be assessed in relation to the other ones given in the same environs. I presume you have that list?

    Oh, I guess you could have been advancing the idea that this particular blowjob is the only one ever administered on that piece of property? Which would make it, if not important, at least historic. But, we’ll need a way to validate that.

    Thanks.

  375. 375
    kl says:

    As with Cheney, there is no evidence that Kennedy was drunk.

    Yeah, he probably swerved to miss an animal in the road. Perhaps an elephant. A pink one.

    I think TDV is overstating the case somewhat.

    No! Unprecedented.

    Oh you’re just jealous of my logic skills.

    “Don’t hate me because I’m beautiful.”–Isabelle Dinoire

    The media coverage of this story lends aid and comfort to the insurgency.

    HA HA HA HE’S BEING SARCASTIC FOLKS

  376. 376
    ppGaz says:

    HA HA HA

    Shhhhh. People are sleeping.

  377. 377
    kl says:

    BUT MY SIDES KEEP SPLITTING

  378. 378
  379. 379
    GOP4Me says:

    Great, now we have GOP4 who is apparently Darrell on crack

    .

    Coming from YOU, that’s a compliment, pee pee.

    IOKIYAR

    Okey-dokey.

    I don’t know, I just see an untalented teenager who’s momma doesn’t give him enough attention. If he’s not a teenager then the scenario really gets pathetic and I don’t want to know anything about it.

    If only you knew the truth, would ye repent your ways?

    Nah, probably not. See you on the sick side of Arizona, Lunger.

    Uhh, Jesus was a Jew, and liked to hang out with theives and prostitutes – I think think he could handle talking to a landsman physicist.

    Yes, but I doubt Jesus goes down to Hell to discuss physics with people who are there for eternally rejecting His name. It’s not outside the realm of possibility, but since only those who accept Christ can be in Heaven, I think we can at least safely conclude Einstein’s current locaton.

    Unless, of course, you worship random objects you find in your wife’s dresser, like Lunger does. Then it is quite likely that your theological viewpoint differs substantially from my own.

    Between this and the Cheney discussion, it’s pretty clear that GOP4Me’s an old-fashioned class warrior for the privileged. “Ah, go ahead, send a few million more of the farm kids to die, but let’s keep the deferments in for the important people to make use of.” This would be all right, if he/she weren’t so intent on pretending that this were in the national interest, rather than in the interest of a narrow set of citizens of the country.

    What do you want from me? Every society has a top and a bottom. The top runs things, the bottom runs. I suppose your ideal Communist state wouldn’t have poor people in it, but barring the fantastic I don’t think we’ll ever have a society without poor people in it. As poor people, they serve a role in society- just like rich people do. If you don’t like the way the human system works, complain about the human heart to God. But I don’t think you’ll like the answer He gives- Jesus said in the Bible that we’ll always have poor people among us. The good news is we all die soon, so you only have to put up with socioeconomic discrepancies for about 80 years. Meanwhile, drink your hooch and be lazy and blame it all on rich people while you wait for your handout check for all I care. I have other priorities besides the lifestyles of the poor and decrepit.

  380. 380
    kl says:

    Try duct tape.

    I can’t, Cheney shot it! BWAH HA HA

  381. 381
    kl says:

    P.S.

    Thanks for the advice.

    Two words: Pajamas Media

    Say what you want about Jane Hamsher, but the woman knows how to count to 2.

  382. 382
    Kimmitt says:

    What do you want from me? Every society has a top and a bottom. The top runs things, the bottom runs.

    An admission of Social Darwinism, which I received. I find the honesty refreshing, seriously. At least I know where you’re coming from.

    ideal Communist state

    Believe it or not, since 1848, economic models between laissez-faire capitalism and state ownership of the means of production have been developed. You may find it interesting to look into them. I’m a liberal; I believe in levelling out the playing field, not cancelling the game.

  383. 383
    GOP4Me says:

    Very astute, Kimmitt. Very astute. The main problem your party has is its reliance on the votes of the poor and worthless. I believe Jay Gould was the one who first said, “I can always get one-half of the poor to kill the other half.” Such has been American history, and such shall be American future. If you don’t believe me, check the bank statements of all those Klansmen lynching blacks back in the good ol’ days when the South voted for your team. My team, on the other hand, runs on great principles: propelling society forward into greatness, while simultaneously retaining what was great about America’s past. I’m sure your friends will scoff at that idea, but I don’t find getting shot or waiting in a bread line for a food allotment to be an acceptable socioeconomic alternative.

    Believe it or not, since 1848, economic models between laissez-faire capitalism and state ownership of the means of production have been developed. You may find it interesting to look into them. I’m a liberal; I believe in levelling out the playing field, not cancelling the game.

    Here’s what you don’t understand: the game is based on the playing field NOT being level. Levelling the playing field cancels the game. And it’s not like it wouldn’t lose its level nature once you stopped interrupting the game and let the players make their own decisions. How else would credit card companies exist?

  384. 384
    GOP4Me says:

    Say what you want about Jane Hamsher, but the woman knows how to count to 2.

    Just barely, though.

  385. 385

    “Don’t hate me because I’m beautiful.”—Isabelle Dinoire

    Well John criticized me for getting all intellectual on his ass, so I would say yes, it was a case of “hating me because I’m ‘beautiful'”.

    Wouldn’t you say the same if someone criticized another for being too good looking?

    That’s what I thought.

  386. 386
    kl says:

    Well John criticized me for getting all intellectual on his ass

    Uh, no he didn’t.

    Wouldn’t you say the same if someone criticized another for being too good looking?

    That’s what I thought.

  387. 387
    kl says:

    Well, the words are all in English, at least.

  388. 388
    Kimmitt says:

    My team, on the other hand, runs on great principles: propelling society forward into greatness,

    It’s the white man’s burden, and it weighs a ton. Again, honesty appreciated; it’s better when the lions don’t pretend to be the apes’ friends.

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