Last Thoughts on Haleigh

In a long post/update on the sad case of Haleigh Poutre, Michelle Malkin laments the fact that no talk-show hosts or big media types have taken up the cause, and then dishonestly singles me out:

Radio talk show host Michael Graham, now at Boston’s WTKK, is also staying on top of the Haleigh Poutre case. Be sure to check out his website for the latest Haleigh developments.

Michael e-mailed me that many talk show hosts don’t want to discuss the story:

I fear it’s the post-Schiavo syndrome.

I think Michael is right, and that the post-Schiavo syndrome is affecting more than just talk radio. Few on either the left or right–in politics, in the blogosphere, in the MSM punditocracy–want to grapple with the moral, legal, and medical implications of this wrenching case. And as I noted before, the bleeding hearts in Hollywood–so quick to leap to the defense of every last Death Row convict–are AWOL. There’s already a jaded and shockingly callous exasperation about Haleigh’s case epitomized by the title and comments at John Cole’s blog: “Dear God, not again.”

Some days, Michelle seems to exist only to make Bill O’Reilly look like a straight shooter.

Putting aside her lame attempts to make me responsible for comments made by others in my comments section (where is your comments section- Michelle?), if there was callous exasperation exhibited on my part, it was not at the plight of Haleigh, it was at the rhetoric of Mrs. Malkin, who served up yet another heaping helping of bullshit. Anyone who looked at my post, “Dear God, Not Again,” can plainly see that. What I am not ready for is another round of crap from folks like Michelle, who write things like:

Haleigh wants to live.

***

This is a huge story, a wake-up call to “right-to-die” ideologues who recklessly put such unlimited trust in the medical profession and Nanny State. The same government bureaucrats and doctors who had conclusively deemed the 11-year-old girl “hopeless” and her vegetative state “irreversible” now tell us she is responding to stimuli and breathing on her own.

They were wrong.

Next, look for The Professionals to tell us that despite her improvements, her “quality of life” will be worthless. We already know how they feel about people with feeding tubes.

***

When the state condemns a convicted murderer to die, Hollywood celebrities trip all over themselves to protest.

Where are the Tinseltown activists who will rally to protect a truly innocent life?

***

Ace of Spades: “I do think it’s interesting that a court can spot a conflict-of-interest, but only when the purported guardian with the conflict-of-interest is in favor of keeping the patient alive.”

See-Dubya at Patterico’s: “Unlike the Schiavo case, not only has Haleigh not told anyone of her true wishes, but she legally can’t make these kind of decisions. There should be a presumption that people, that children, even brain-damaged orphans, ought to live.”

Karol at Alarming News frames the ghouls’ position succinctly: “Quick, let’s starve her to death!”

This isn’t about Haleigh Poutre, this is about rehabilitating and reviving Michelle’s attacks on those who disagreed with her about Terri Schiavo. And it is about as transparent as it gets. These cases are not the same, and should, through some miracle, Haleigh manage to recover (which I doubt, but we can remain hopeful), it has no impact on the judgements made in the Schiavo case.

So if Michelle observed some callous exasperation, it wasn’t directed at poor Haleigh Poutre, but rather it was aimed squarely at Michelle and the rest of the folks like her who are going to use this poor girl as another prop in the never-ending ‘culture of life’ war. Remember, during the Schiavo unpleasantness, it wasn’t my ‘side’ who smeared everyone who agreed with Michael and Terri (as decided by the courts) as being members of the ‘culture of death.’

As I have pointed out before, it was not my ‘side’ who had Peggy Noonan penning columns attacking people for worshipping a culture of death. It was not my ‘side’ pretending that everyone who thought the law was clear and that this was a decision for Terri and Michael Schiavo was some evil ghoul who believed in mandatory euthanasia.

It was not my ‘side’ lying about medical records, impugning the integrity of one of the victims (Michael Schiavo), making remote diagnoses via video tape, or rushing to Washington to make up new laws to subvert already established law.

It was not my ‘side’ screaming about activist judges, or attacking anyone who dared to follow the law.

And it was not my side pretending that Terri Schiavo was screaming ‘I want to live’ after 15 years in a PVS. It was Michelle and her cohort, who just the other day made a Fristian diagnosis and decided that “Haleigh wants to live.” Some of them are still lying about the Schaivo autopsy to this day.

Considering the crap Michelle and her friends are gearing up to put everyone through, I think a little callous exasperation is in order. But it isn’t aimed at Haleigh Poutre, and Michelle should at least have the decency to not hide behind the lifeless body of an 11 year old when launching her broadsides at other bloggers and her political opponents.

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239 replies
  1. 1
    Otto Man says:

    Considering the crap Michelle and her friends are gearing up to put everyone through, I think a little callous exasperation is in order.

    Well said. Except I think the word “callous” can only apply to the ghouls who are willing to exploit this tragedy to score political points — people like Malkin and those who enabled the Schiavo circus.

  2. 2
    renato says:

    Don’t kid yourself by expecting decency from Michelle Malkin.

  3. 3
    Gahh! says:

    Damn Straight!

  4. 4
    renato says:

    If Malkin and her ilk truly believed in the “Culture of Life”, they’d be demanding the impeachment of Bush for the awful disaster of the Iraq war which has killed over 100,000 human beings.

    Culture of Life? More like the Culture of Lies.

  5. 5
    Paddy O'Shea says:

    Speaking of news media prostitution to the cause of the right, how about Tucker Carlson and his facilitators at MSNBC?

    From Americablog:

    MSNBC doesn’t want you to know that Osama sounds like Mehlman “only less gay.”

    Finally someone nailed Bin Laden’s real alter ego … Air America’s Rachel Maddow revealed it during an interview with Tucker Carlson:

    “This is a global war on terror. This is a war for you or forus to win. You need patience … He sounds like Ken Mehlman when he’s saying that only less gay. I mean this is ridiculous.

    Now you won’t find that on the MSNBC transcript anymore. They scrubbed it…can’t ever ‘dis’ the GOPers on MSNBC…and god forbid anyone think Ken is a homo …

    http://americablog.blogspot.co.....-that.html

  6. 6
    stickler says:

    Michelle should at least have the decency to not hide behind the lifeless body of an 11 year old…

    Well, that’s your problem right there. You expect “decency” from a totally unscrupulous media shill.

    “Decency” went out the window when Goldwater Republicanism was shelved for movement wingnut Fundieocracy. These people are well-paid Trotskyists, not conservatives. To them, “decency” is for patsies.

  7. 7
    Halffasthero says:

    Some days your rants are a work of art. Hats off to you, I could not have worded it better myself.

  8. 8
    Vladi G says:

    Oh, don’t get so angry at Michelle, John. It’s really Jesse writing all of that stuff anyway. They just need her for the picture.

  9. 9
    Pooh says:

    Who replaced John with Glenn Greenwald?

  10. 10
    JKC says:

    Well said, John.

  11. 11
    demimondian says:

    Actually, John, there’s no callous exasperation involved at all. There’s quite a bit of outraged exasperation at Malkin and her ilk, but the only callousness being exhibited is her own — to be willing to desecrate the poor child’s body in a bit of vile political theatre.

  12. 12

    Malkin the voice of the braindead…

    Michelle needs to just shut up. It didn’t work the first time, it won’t work this time… Radio talk show host Michael Graham, now at Boston’s WTKK, is also staying on top of the Haleigh Poutre case. Be sure to…

  13. 13
    Nelson Muntz says:

    Never forget John-boy that Malkin, et. al., are your BFFs! This is just a little luv tiff. But you’ll gladly suck up to them and vice-versa….

    When will you “grown up” rethugs learn?

    Ha Ha!

  14. 14
    Tim F. says:

    The good news is that the GOP won’t touch this with a ten-million-foot pole. They got burned badly over Schiavo and the last thing they want to do is peel off that scab.

    All of which raises the interesting question, whose interests is Malkin serving here? I don’t know where she got her zeal for this story but it definitely didn’t come over a fax from GOP.com.

    For our part, the best thing that we can do is make sure that our religious-right friends know about this story and that their friends in the GOP (Frist, Santorum, Brownback) seem determined to ignore it. The GOP needs their vote and it’d be a shame if they started to feel used.

  15. 15
    sphinx says:

    The Republicans are the Culture of Death. They are Pro-gun, Pro-War, Pro-Death Penalty, Pro-Torture and oops..almost forgot, “Pro Life”. GAG.

  16. 16
    anti-moonbat says:

    Your arguements are so lame!!!!
    Typical moonbat comments

  17. 17
    Nat says:

    Never forget John-boy that Malkin, et. al., are your BFFs! This is just a little luv tiff. But you’ll gladly suck up to them and vice-versa

    Gee, that was pretty uncalled-for. I share the perplexity of many on this board at John’s insistence on calling himself a Republican (although I understand his reluctance to support the Democrats), but he’s never been inconsistent in his loathing for Malkin and her cronies.

    I don’t read this blog because it’s written by a “grown-up Republican”; I don’t really think John’s much of a Republican, even if he doesn’t realize it. I read it because John’s rants are funny and because I sympathize with his disgust at both left and right. His reflexive biases are a little annoying sometimes but I don’t think he’s a malicious GOP tool or a right-wing apologist. (After all, he lets Tim F. post here.) And he certainly doesn’t deserve to be called a thug.

  18. 18

    I say we pull Malkin’s feeding tube, take her off life support. It would be a victory for all concerned.

  19. 19
    burnspbesq says:

    @anti-moonbat:

    Thank you so much for your thoughtful contribution to the discussion. Just curious about a few things:

    (1) whose arguments do you consider to be lame?
    (2) which arguments do you consider to be lame?
    (3) why do you consider them to be lame?

    P.S. lurn 2 spel.

  20. 20
    Zifnab says:

    All of which raises the interesting question, whose interests is Malkin serving here? I don’t know where she got her zeal for this story but it definitely didn’t come over a fax from GOP.com

    The most successful right-wing smear tactics are those that the right is least connected to. The Swift-Boat Veterans never received direct support or praise from the White House. The “Michael Moore is a fat stupid liar” meme wasn’t launched by Arie or Scottie. And Congress never really launched into the War on Christmas with the zeal that O’Reily and Gibson mustered.

    The GOP wins when they just sit tight, shut up, and don’t do anything. Then the smear machine can go to town on whatever the Dems say or do and Republicans walk away with clean hands. The problem with Terri Shavio wasn’t the outrage, it was the action. If DeLay and Bush had just sat back and feigned concern, they’d have done alot better.

  21. 21

    John, you really don’t need to defend yourself against someone like Malkin.

    The woman, and I use that term loosely, is a joke.

  22. 22
    Louise says:

    I’m just sorry you had to take the time to put this post together, John. Responding to idiots is soul-sucking, if you let it be.

  23. 23
    drindl says:

    I am so grateful for sites like this, where there is rational conservative thought. I’ve been a Democrat/independent all my life and worked on many elections. I may have had differences of opinion about policy with my Republican opponents but I respected them. Now I just wonder what the hell happened to the Republican party because it seems to be run by lunatics and incompetents who are totally disinterested in the fate or future of this country.

    And while there are simple people in both parties, so many rightwing posters [‘moonbat’ is a good example] are frightenly illiterate and barely capable of cognition — really just neanderthal thugs. What happened? For the sake of all of us, could you rational people take your party back now?

  24. 24
    OCSteve says:

    Nope. Ain’t gonna do it. Just gonna pass on by…

  25. 25
    Sock Puppet says:

    Did anyone notice that “anti-moonbat” spells the word for verbal conflict “arguement?”

    It has been my experience that anyone who uses the term “moonbat” as a way of challenging someone else’s “arguement” on a blog usually has a serious problem with alcohol abuse.

    Either that or their momma hit them upside the head a whole lot when they were just an itty bitty.

  26. 26
    John Redworth says:

    John,

    Bravo! I almost got wood over reading that… I get tired of pundits on the left and right telling me that I am wrong for whatever is the hot topic of the second… I did not support the war thus I am not a patriot… I did not support whole Schiavo thing so I am death monger… I did support the SCOTUS nominees and I am a Bushie… I question the warrantless wire taps and I am a terrorist…

    Enough of the generic labels… and enough of the partisan hacks distributing these labels…

  27. 27
    Richard Bottoms says:

    And it was not my side pretending that Terri Schiavo was screaming ‘I want to live’ after 15 years in a PVS.

    Yes it was.

    You are a Republican. That’s you side.

  28. 28

    John, I second what dissenfranchised said… Michelle is what I like to call Hysterical…. And it does not get much better.

  29. 29
    Jay C says:

    So John, tell us … what do you really think of Michelle Malkin????

    Anyway, it should be obvious to all why Ms. Malkin takes such an interest in PVS cases like Terri Schiavo or Haleigh Poutre: after all, the woman is, herself, a living example of the principle that “brain death” doesn’t necessarily mean The End!

  30. 30
    demimondian says:

    Naked bootleg? That took some chutzpah!

  31. 31
    demimondian says:

    Shoot. Wrong thread.

    Sorry — John, would you delete that? It’s inappropriate in this thread…

  32. 32
    jcricket says:

    You’ll be waiting a long time for any decency from Malkin. Someone who can defend internment with a straight face, and accuse everyone who thought the law and medical situation was clear of mandating euthenasia for people over 65 has no decency.

    The fact that Republicans don’t disassociate themselves from Malkin, Coulter, O’Reilly, Robertson, Gibson, Swift-Boat Vets, etc. says a lot about the (at least) tacit support their wing-nuttery gets. As someone pointed out up-thread, Rove and the RNC gladly coordinate and support this stuff, no matter how vile.

    In WA State the GOP engineered a vote on a sex-offender bill opposed by the police, victims rights advocates, etc. specifically so they could send out robo-calls/post-cards accusing the Dems of being soft on sex offense crimes. This is officially supported stuff.

    Remember – There is no equivalent behavior on the left. Left-wing nut jobs are not part of the party, and the DNC does not coordinate/support them. Despite the lies on the right, there is no liberal Fox News. There are no liberal McCarthy’s (with any power). There are no liberal Horowitz’s or Limbaughs.

    That’s why stuff like this Hailegh situation will always be seen as “ammunition” to the right, and a tragedy to be left alone on the left. We’re not the same kind of disgusting amoral pigs.

  33. 33
    Steve J. says:

    Some days, Michelle seems to exist only to make Bill O’Reilly look like a straight shooter.

    Ouch! If Malkin didn’t have Kevlar skin, that would have left a mark.

  34. 34

    Some days, Michelle seems to exist only to make Bill O’Reilly look like a straight shooter.

    Actually, she exists to say inflammatory things so that people will blog about her and she will make money…

  35. 35
    SeesThroughIt says:

    And it was not my side pretending that Terri Schiavo was screaming ‘I want to live’ after 15 years in a PVS.

    Yes it was.

    You are a Republican. That’s you side.

    But John personally came down against all the GOP Schiavo-related bullshit. When he picked his side, it was squarely against the Republicans.

  36. 36
    Ancient Purple says:

    Dear Ms. Malkin,

    Since you are only taking up the cause of an 11-year-old in Boston to further your banshee like screaching across the internet, please be so kind to give my best wishes to Satan when you die.

    Thanks so much.

  37. 37
    Richard Bottoms says:

    But John personally came down against all the GOP Schiavo-related bullshit. When he picked his side, it was squarely against the Republicans.

    It doesn’t matter what he says.

    What matters is where he votes.

    He helped put Bush back in the White House which would not have been possible without the Swiftliars, the Malkins, and the fag bashing of HIS party.

    Deplore Ms. Malkin all you want, in the end she helps his guys get elected. Just like all the traitor-smearing talking heads will do this election year.

    Fuck her and the Republican party.

  38. 38
    Pablo says:

    Left-wing nut jobs are not part of the party, and the DNC does not coordinate/support them.

    jcricket, are you not familiar with the left-wing nutjob that currently chairs the DNC?

    Really, come on now.

  39. 39
    Sine.Qua.Non says:

    Here, here, John! I completely agree.

    Well, you certainly garnered a group today. Unfortunate, as these last two aren’t evening discussing the issue.

    JC? High 5!

  40. 40
    nyrev says:

    So which hospice patient is Howard Dean exploiting for political points?

    Or has he been caught wire-tapping the maple trees again? Damn it, Howie, just because they’re Red Maples doesn’t mean they’re spies!

  41. 41
    Krista says:

    That was an awe-inspiring rant, John. It brought a tear to my eye and a tingle to my loins.

  42. 42
    Geek, Esq. says:

    Uh oh, JC. I think you just earned a spot in the future “Culture of Death Supporter” internment camp.

  43. 43
    Richard Bottoms says:

    The nature of my post are two simple things:

    We are not going to take it in the ass from the Republican party this cycle.

    There are no good Republicans.

    It is the party of gay bashing, Bob-Jones University segregating, Terri Shiavo exploiting, Swiftliars and every one of them, from Olympia Snowe to George Bush need to be driven from office before this country bankrupted.

    You war. Your lies. You defict.

    And every time some rube who voted for Repbulicans but now has found himself in an exploding coal mine, or sees Medicare wrecked and his mom going without her medication, or finally sees the Jack Abramof’s of the world are the true Republican constituancy we are one step closer booting all their asses from office.

  44. 44

    Michelle Malkin would crush Haleigh Poutre’s skull beneath the 4 inch heels of her Jimmy Choo’s in an effort to find the nearest camera. All she wants is to jump on whatever she perceives as the fastest train to Publicityville. And Bill O’Reilly will be sitting next to her, hoping against hope she’ll give him equal face time. It’s about the politics of the moment, guys – when that poor child dies, or ceases to be of use – on Michelle will go to the next designated piece of camera-candy; no real interest or compassion. So don’t expect a conscience – she hasn’t shown one yet; and I’d wager that means one doesn’t exist.

  45. 45
    The Other Steve says:

    I wouldn’t have a problem with Malkin’s rants if it was actually something she believed in.

    But it’s not. It’s just pure partisanship… trying to exploit the beating and potential death of a little girl to score cheap political points.

    That’s what was the issue with Schiavo, and it’s clearly the issue here too.

  46. 46
    The Captain of the O says:

    Yeah, Richard, that’s a wonderful idea. In fact, let’s just post a list of names on the Senate doors and let the mob do the dirty work.

  47. 47
    ppGaz says:

    I fear it’s the post-Schiavo syndrome.

    It’s the result of technology that can keep a corpse alive, so that we can have plenty of time and opportunity for …

    trying to exploit the beating and potential death of a little girl to score cheap political points.

    It’s a new form of immortality. Your brain might be oatmeal, but your rosy-cheeked countenance can live forever in the middle of a political circus.

    In a contest between Malkin and John, I would expect that Malkin will take a major ass-whipping. It really isn’t a fair contest.

  48. 48
    Pooh says:

    Richard, rants like that are why we lose elections. Simmer. Down.

  49. 49
    Richard Bottoms says:

    Richard, rants like that are why we lose elections. Simmer. Down.

    We lose elections because we make deals with so-called liberal Republicans and are then savaged by their attackdogs for those very compromises. We Democrats with backbone have ceased bringing knives to gunfights.

  50. 50
    Richard Bottoms says:

    Yeah, Richard, that’s a wonderful idea. In fact, let’s just post a list of names on the Senate doors and let the mob do the dirty work.

    Here’s the list of who needs to be gone: look for anyone with a R as their political party.

    As for the mob taking them out. We’ll use the ballot box thank you. I know metphors are hard for folks to deal with, but try hard, okay?

  51. 51
    Richard Bottoms says:

    Since you are only taking up the cause of an 11-year-old in Boston to further your banshee like screaching across the internet, please be so kind to give my best wishes to Satan when you die.

    Look, this is just the way it is.

    I am a highly conservative African-American military vet.

    I have had enough of a policalt party that thinks it’s just fine to strip my gay siste of her rights.

    I have had enough of a political party that kicks of elections by visiting universities that ban interraccial mixing. My German wife objects too.

    I have had enough of relgious fanatics who rail against science because it is politically expedient and helpful to keeping their trailerpark constituents in line.

    I have had enough of my Army, MY Army that I served with pride being ground into duts by stupid military decisions coming from even stupider political considertions.

    I have had enough of reading about families machine-gunned at checkpoints by jittery soldiers who are in this position because not enough fucking troops were sent to begin with.

    I have enough patriotic spew from a party that specializes in steering wasteful defense contracts to big donors while troops go without body armour.

    Your pary, your mess, you disaster and by God I hope the Democrats destroy you at the polls next November.

  52. 52
    Candidus says:

    where is your comments section- Michelle?

    (chuckle)

    Perhaps she doesn’t want to provide and pay for a public toilet on her website…or perhaps she doesn’t feel the need to.

  53. 53
    Ancient Purple says:

    Um… Mr. Bottoms?

    I am not sure you why you quoted my “go to hell” comment to Malkin and then made your complaint.

    Perhaps it is late for me and I am just not getting it, but can you connect the dots for me?

  54. 54
    scs says:

    I think it’s pretty ridiculous that you all seem to think that anyone who believes as Malkin does is insincere and pandering for some cause, just as it is ridiculous to think all of those who think the plug should be pulled don’t believe in their stance as well. The problem is that diagnosing the functioning of the damaged mind is not an exact science yet, as all medical people will tell you, and there is no certainty. Liberals, for some reason seem to believe that, when in doubt, pull the plug, and conservatives tend to believe the opposite. My personal opinion is that, in close cases, these decisions should be left up to families as little as possible, and instead should be made by several impartial brain specialists. This will eliminate all the personal bias, for good or for bad, that comes with a family member making this decision. This would have rendered moot the doubts about Schiavo’s motives and the doubts about this girl’s stepfather.

  55. 55
    Steve S says:

    I think it’s pretty ridiculous that you all seem to think that anyone who believes as Malkin does is insincere and pandering for some cause, just as it is ridiculous to think all of those who think the plug should be pulled don’t believe in their stance as well.

    You prove to me that Malkin is sincere and I’ll apologize.

    But she’s not, and you know it. So is it wrong to call a spade a spade? Is it wrong to point out that blowhards like Malkin pander the sentiments of bleeding heart liberals to promote their bullshit?

    Apparently to you it is, because we’re just not being very nice.

  56. 56
    Steve S says:

    Liberals, for some reason seem to believe that, when in doubt, pull the plug, and conservatives tend to believe the opposite.

    And you wonder why people call you names?

  57. 57
    Steve S says:

    I am not sure you why you quoted my “go to hell” comment to Malkin and then made your complaint.

    I don’t care. Mr. Bottoms made a most excellent rant!

  58. 58
    Richard Bottoms says:

    I think it’s pretty ridiculous that you all seem to think that anyone who believes as Malkin does is insincere and pandering for some cause, just as it is ridiculous to think all of those who think the plug should be pulled don’t believe in their stance as well.

    I don’t doubt the sincerity of the real people involved in this issue on either side.

    I thoroughly disbelieve in any possibility that the Malkins, Coulters, Limbaughs of the right see this anything more than one more cudgel to use on liberals while folks like John moan about how terrible it all is that his allies are doing such mean things.

    Every utterance from the right wing media chorus is designed for one thing only: elect more Republicans by any means, tactic or manouver necessary.

    That John doesn’t play along occasionally (oh Michelle you meanie) is irrelevant. It is a tactical war that the right has been fighting for 25 years.

    Assigning benign motives may be the right thing to do as a Christian. As a political strategy it’s pretty fucking dumb.

    This is the party that wins elections be attacking a man missing two legs and an arm from wounds battle as insuffiently patriotic.

  59. 59
    Richard Bottoms says:

    I am not sure you why you quoted my “go to hell” comment to Malkin and then made your complaint.

    Perhaps it is late for me and I am just not getting it, but can you connect the dots for me?

    Sure.

    You’re absolutly right, she is a bitch and is on an express train to Hell.

    Sorry I wasn’t clear.

    We aren’t going to take this crap from this people one more damn day.

    Not one.

  60. 60
    scs says:

    You prove to me that Malkin is sincere and I’ll apologize.

    Prove to me that she is not and I’ll issue a correction.

    And you wonder why people call you names?

    You got a problem with that statement. I just think it is reflecting reality. And I don’t have a problem with people calling me names in general, just people who harass me for some sick reasons I can only guess.

  61. 61
    Steve S says:

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10979927/

    Booo hooo! Jack Abramhoff’s daughter cried because of a nasty comment George Clooney said.

    A new twist in the conservative moonbat saga, where we are supposed to care about the feelings of convicted felons.

  62. 62
    Steve S says:

    Prove to me that she is not and I’ll issue a correction.

    Hey, you’re the one making the claim. Back it up.

    You got a problem with that statement. I just think it is reflecting reality.

    It’s interesting. We’re supposed to believe the sincerity of fruitcakes like Malkin, but you can’t bring yourself to believe the sincerity of anybody else involved in the debate.

    Practice what you preach.

  63. 63
    scs says:

    Steve S, I’m not getting you. If you see the posts above, they are chock full of people making the claim that Malkin is not sincere in this. So I am not the one starting the “claim”. As to your second point, I don’t get whose sincerity you think I’m questioning. I said I believe both sides are sincere in their belief in this debate. Liberals have a belief that a compromised life of brain damage is not worth living and the right believes that it is. Pretty simple really and not controversial I thought.

  64. 64
    scs says:

    And by the way, as I know that everyone pounces on me for every little thing here, by brain damage above, I’m talking about severe, PVS brain damage that liberals tend to think is not considered a life worth living. I don’t mean to imply Dems think that about other types brain damage, of course.

  65. 65
    Ancient Purple says:

    Liberals have a belief that a compromised life of brain damage is not worth living and the right believes that it is. Pretty simple really and not controversial I thought.

    Nonsense. Many of my conservative friends were aghast at the Shiavo incident and they, themselves, are very clear that they want their respective life support systems pulled if they are in PVS. In fact, I would guess that the overwhelming number of people in this country would want the plug pulled if they were in a PVS.

  66. 66
    scs says:

    When I say right, I mean the “Right”, not just the mushy middle of Republicans. I don’t think it’s nonsense to assert that they tend to have a view, perhaps influenced by Christianity, that life is precious at all costs, even a person who is alive in PVS. Of course not ALL on the right will agree with that- nothing is absolute.

  67. 67
    Diane says:

    Since we don’t really know all the medical facts in this case, I do not feel comfortable making a comment.
    I do have a question for all of them and it is not a nice question but needs to be asked and no one is doing it.
    Who is going to pay for keeping this girl alive for the rest of her life?
    Who will pay for all these people?
    The GOP just made the decision to reduce Medcicaid/Medicare. That means that our/her local taxes will go up.
    The question of Social Services competency was raised. I’m sure their budget was cut and they are running understaffed and are way overburdened.
    So….. my question is one of economics.
    And I would like michelle and Michael Graham to come up with a solution. It it does not seem nice to talk about but it needs to be addressed.

  68. 68
  69. 69
    Richard Bottoms says:

    BTW, one clarification.

    I am sure there are plenty of fine upstanding Republcians.

    People wise.

    Polticially however, they are part of a party that pushes torture, political repression, inept war fighting, fag bashing, and the slimiest electioneering in memeory.

    I have no sympathy for your discomfort or patience for your learning curve.

    Michael Schiavo ws accused of murder purely as a poltical ploy. Your party reaps the benefits while the Olympia Snowes tut-tut the more extreme emebers of their side.

    Fuck her. Fuck them.

  70. 70
    Pooh says:

    Richard,

    Let me try this again. John, and those like him, are those that are there to be convinced. So you can either sway him with the force of your arguments, or antagonize and alienate. The former has a chance success. The latter, while it may feel cleansing, does not. So you may lack patience, but that in and of itself is worth, as the Brits say, fuck all.

  71. 71

    When history looks back at this era in America, it will be startled to find the plethora of Malkins, Coulters, Limbaughs, and O’Reillys. History will be startled because these vile Joe McCarthy wanna-bes are destined for extinction. Their shtick is wearing out.

    America is beginning to wake up…..slowly…..

  72. 72
    Richard Bottoms says:

    Let me try this again. John, and those like him, are those that are there to be convinced.

    Sorry. Been there, done that. No sarcasam at all intended.

    See, I’m with the folks who think that the farthest left of our party are pretty silly and that the military is not inherently bad. That sometimes you have to squash the bad guys and that capitalism works pretty good. You know, middle class, tax paying, patrotic Americans.

    Somehow it is incumbent on me though to convice John that fag bashing is bad, torture is against every value our country holds dear, and that inept leadership in the White House endnager us all?

    No wait, he says all those things are bad too. Hmm then what’s the problem then? Oh I know, he keeps voting for the party responsible for all of it.

    Hi John. I with the party that things miners are dying because greedy mine owners have fought regulations that improve safety for years.

    Seat belts. My guys.

    Catalytic converters. Us.

    EPA. Us again.

    Asbestos. Lead paint. Carcinogens. Pig farm waste. Defective products. Endagered species. Want to guess which party takes the stands most likely to end up with good results but takes it in the ass at polls for doing so????

    What is there for me to convince him of exactly?

    That kicking off a campaign at a segragationist minded unversity is a bad thing?

    That homosexuals should have the same citizenship rights as straights?

    That presidents don’t have the power to abrogate the constitution just cause he says so?

    Tha blowing up innocent civilians in Middle East countries just plain pisses them off and will come to haunt us? Oh, and torturing their brothers is probably bad new too?

    That gas miliage standards are joke and keep us dependent on our enemies?

    That soldeirs die when sent out on poorly planned invasions when their vehicles don’t have enough protection but the money to fix it is going to Star Wars and warplanes that aren’t needed?

    So to John, I say. We don’t need your vote.

    We just need the 2% that were lied to and who voted Bush back into office. Cause rhey were told all of the things I listed above would be better handled by Repbublicans.

    That if you are elderly you’ll get your medicne and if you are a soldeir you’ll get your body armour.

    That if we are screwing up a war on two fronts you don’t make the world safer by fucking it up and shoving a trillion dollars into a furnace.

    That 3,000 dead soldiers is a hell of a price to pay for not understanding how not to get suckered in the Middle East. For fighting Iran’s war with Iraq for them, while Iran goes off to build nuclear weapons.

    I’m not planning on convincing John of a damn thing.

    I do however work to convince any Democrat who thinks that putting a hand out to Republicans invites anything other than getting it bitten off.

  73. 73
    Pablo says:

    Hate to break this to you, Richard, but the Sago miners died because of their training. Had they just run like hell, they’d still be alive.

    That if we are screwing up a war on two fronts you don’t make the world safer by fucking it up and shoving a trillion dollars into a furnace.

    That’s freaking brilliant! I’m gonna write that down. don’t make…world…safer…by…fucking…it…up.

    Thanks, Richard!

  74. 74
    renato says:

    scs, you are tremendously naive if you think Malkin is sincere.

  75. 75
    renato says:

    That’s freaking brilliant! I’m gonna write that down. don’t make…world…safer…by…fucking…it…up.

    Thanks, Richard!

    No, Pablo, that’s common sense.

    What would be frickin’ brilliant would be if people like you quit voting for the party that keeps shitting the bed.

  76. 76
    Don Surber says:

    JC: “Putting aside her lame attempts to make me responsible for comments made by others in my comments section (where is your comments section- Michelle?)”

    Amen.

    I bit on Schiavo. Not biting on this one.

    Strange how this comments section gravitates to Iraq — it is like there is something wrong with the alignment on the car

  77. 77
    Pablo says:

    Hey renato, what do you mean by “people like you”? And how do you know not only whether I voted but for whom? You’re not about to get all tolerant and diverse on me, are you?

  78. 78
    Pablo says:

    BTW, renato…that’s not common sense, it’s incoherent. That you think it’s common sense tells me a lot about you and those people like you.

    Booga booga.

  79. 79
    drindl says:

    ‘Liberals, for some reason seem to believe that, when in doubt, pull the plug, and conservatives tend to believe the opposite.’

    Where do these stereotypes come from? What makes anybody believe this? Because, after all, which party created the laws that allow a state to pull the plug for financial reasons? The party that’s in the pocket of multi-national health care organizations, who fought for this provision. Democrats are the ones who are regularly slandered on the Right for fighting for healthcare spending. So which party is really the most compassionate? [Clue: it ain’t Republilcans].

    One kid in Texas — heartland of the ‘culture of life’ — has already been unplugged. But he was black, so nobody paid much attention. Where was the outrage then? And for that matter, where is the outrage that this kid’s stepfather is walking around? He’s even said the child ‘deserved it’. Why isn’t he frying in the chair? “Nother stereotype — that all liberals are against capital punishment. Not me. I think anybody who tortures a child, whether they die or not, should be executed. Immediately and with no regret, just the way we would shoot a mad dog.

  80. 80
    ppGaz says:

    Richard, John is already a closet Democrat. He just hasn’t registered as one yet.

    So far as we know.

    If his blog weren’t the roost for a covey of obnoxious lefties like us, he’d probably already have outed himself.

  81. 81
    ppGaz says:

    Where do these stereotypes come from?

    The author of your cited blurb, here, is a deliberate troll who just makes things up.

    She’ll throw a huge tantrum if you say so, though, so be careful.

  82. 82
    ppGaz says:

    scs, you are tremendously naive if you think Malkin is sincere.

    While that is true, I’ll wager that Malkin is more sincere than scs is wrt to this topic.

  83. 83
    charliedontsurf10 says:

    Gee, I could take the time to fashion a well-reasoned graph or two taking malkin’s “arguement” apart point by point but it’s Monday and I’m just gonna cut to the chase.

    Malkin and her ilk are ignorant, neo-nazi trash on a good day. She’s not havin’ a good day.

    Which “shrub sings jac – a putz-fest pioneer” shot should they use for the album cover?

  84. 84
    Cyrus says:

    scs Says:

    I think it’s pretty ridiculous that you all seem to think that anyone who believes as Malkin does is insincere and pandering for some cause, just as it is ridiculous to think all of those who think the plug should be pulled don’t believe in their stance as well.

    Um, of course some of the people taking the anti-plug-pulling-position out of sincere belief. But since some of them are not sincere in other matters and/or were obviously not reliable in the Schiavo case, such as Frist with his remote diagnosis and Malkin and lots of other people with their slanders about Michael Schaivo, I see no need to assume better of them here than they earned there.

    Liberals, for some reason seem to believe that, when in doubt, pull the plug, and conservatives tend to believe the opposite.

    Either you’re stupid or you’re lying. Seriously. Either you have such mindless, unsubstantiated prejudices against The Left (TM) that you believe anything negative you’ve ever heard about them, or you are mentally unable to grasp the difference between “Jane Doe deserves to die,” and “If Jane Doe wants to die, the state should not get involved.”

    Well, I guess there’s a third possibility. You could be trolling, just saying nonsensical and/or inflammatory stuff to watch the reactions.

    Personally, since you asked what I thought about it, I’m not sure if they should be pulling the plug on Haleigh, but that has nothing to do with her stepfather’s right to make her medical decisions. If he’s the one who put her in this condition, he certainly should not be her legal guardian.

    My personal opinion is that, in close cases, these decisions should be left up to families as little as possible, and instead should be made by several impartial brain specialists.

    Can we quote you on this? You want more government meddling. Less freedom about really personal choices. The bureaucracy should have the final say in matters of life and death. Got it.

  85. 85
    ppGaz says:

    these decisions should be left up to families as little as possible, and instead should be made by several impartial brain specialists.

    Uh, yeah, scs, they’re called “doctors.”

  86. 86
    Devil's Advocate says:

    “Haleigh wants to live”.

    So I guess that Malkin has become a trained and experienced neurologist overnight.

    She should get together with Bill Frist, watch some videotapes, and make some pious pronouncement.

  87. 87
    Steve says:

    Conservatives have a pretty good scam going. They oppose national health care, they favor all kinds of cuts to social services, they want to shrink the government until it dies in the bathtub. But then when one case in a million becomes a high-publicity event and sweeps the nation, they get all noisy about how sacred life is and how we must drop everything to save this one person.

    The reason I call it a good scam is because it works. Some people actually fall for the line that conservatives are the ones who believe in a “culture of life,” and obviously, the election results speak for themselves. Liberals should consider coming up with a few disingenous scams of their own.

  88. 88
    Lines says:

    hey scs:

    please keep it up, the popcorn is popping and I have the best seat in the house. This has the potential to be totally hilarious!

  89. 89
    ppGaz says:

    This has the potential to be totally hilarious!

    I think she’ll explode at any moment.

    Last time, she tried accusing me of “sexual harassment.”

    But this time she has at least a half dozen adversaries going here, so she might need a new strategy.

  90. 90
    Ancient Purple says:

    When I say right, I mean the “Right”, not just the mushy middle of Republicans. I don’t think it’s nonsense to assert that they tend to have a view, perhaps influenced by Christianity, that life is precious at all costs, even a person who is alive in PVS. Of course not ALL on the right will agree with that- nothing is absolute.

    Now you are simply equivocating.

    I am not talking about mushy Republicans. I am talking about died-in-the-wool Goldwater conservatives that make George Bush look like a New Dealer and they, almost universally, said it was nobody’s business to intefere in the Schiavo case and certainly not in the current case.

    Oddly, almost every one of them, save one person, has a Living Will and Health Care Proxy stipulating that if they are in a PVS, pull the plug.

    I guess the whole “culture of life” extends only to other people.

  91. 91
    Zifnab says:

    Conservatives have a pretty good scam going. They oppose national health care, they favor all kinds of cuts to social services, they want to shrink the government until it dies in the bathtub. But then when one case in a million becomes a high-publicity event and sweeps the nation, they get all noisy about how sacred life is and how we must drop everything to save this one person.

    Amen

  92. 92
    Angela Ferguson says:

    Excellent Post, John … but as with your other posts, it won’t impact Michelle in the least. Correction: It WILL cause her to label you as a moonbat and rally her psychotic blog buddies into ganging up on you, but it wont’t cause her to take a close look in the mirror and turn from her wicked ways.

    As others have commented, I don’t view you as a Republican but I don’t view you as a Democrat, either. You are just like me, Richard Bottoms, and millions of other American citizens who are utterly disgusted by our “options”. There is not one political party out there … NOT ONE … with which I feel I can completely identify. Although I relate more to Democrats because they are not as downright heartless as Republicans, I don’t trust them either.

    I’m very grateful for this site, kudos to Daily Kos for providing a link a few weeks ago! We need more people just like you who will call a spade a frickin spade!

  93. 93
    Krista says:

    They oppose national health care, they favor all kinds of cuts to social services, they want to shrink the government until it dies in the bathtub. But then when one case in a million becomes a high-publicity event and sweeps the nation, they get all noisy about how sacred life is and how we must drop everything to save this one person.

    I wonder how many homeless people died while Michelle Malkin was writing that Haleigh wants to live, despite the nefarious libs who want her “put to death”.

  94. 94
    Pb says:

    drindl,

    More than one from Texas now, see the other thread, or search for Tirhas Habtegiris (or for “ventilator insurance” :P).

    John Cole,

    Maybe this isn’t the last of it–looks like Red State has picked it up. See if you can set them straight, and while you’re at it let me know if they’re ignorant of how a hospital in Texas pulled the plug on a conscious woman who didn’t want to die yet, or if they’re just being self-serving hypocritical Bush syncophants.

  95. 95
    The Other Steve says:

    Wherein The Other Steve(aka Steve S) takes apart scs point by point…

    Steve S, I’m not getting you.

    Of course not, because you refuse to listen to any argument that contradicts your own beliefs. That’s not surprising, it’s a fundamental feature of the conservative mindset.

    If you see the posts above, they are chock full of people making the claim that Malkin is not sincere in this.

    Right. History, my dear… History.

    Malking and the others are also the ones who came out in the Schiavo matter. The fact that Bill Frist did a diagnosis via a video tape(which, BTW, turned out to be bunk as proven by the autopsy).

    But the most damning point was their memo stating “Jump on this! We can make it into a big political talking point.”

    No, my dear… Republican leaders are not sincere when they talk about such things.

    So I am not the one starting the “claim”.

    Well you are. You’re claiming we should abandon all evidence to the contrary and assume these people are sincere.

    So prove it. Prove to me Michelle Malkin is sincere.

    As to your second point, I don’t get whose sincerity you think I’m questioning.

    Of course you don’t get it.

    I said I believe both sides are sincere in their belief in this debate.

    No you didn’t. You said Liberals want to kill everybody.

    Liberals have a belief that a compromised life of brain damage is not worth living and the right believes that it is.

    Let’s put it another way. Liberals believe God has taken the soul from the body up to heaven, and it is better to simply allow the body to pass rather than fight the will of God.

    Conservatives on the other hand believe the Will of God is meaningless bunk, and it should be fought at every opportunity.

    Pretty simple really and not controversial I thought.

    How did you like my mischaracterization?

    It is not a question of not worth living. It is far more complex. It is a question of the will of the individual as expressed through the family. There is also an aspect of Religious morality here, as I noted above. And there is an aspect of the very real costs of healthcare. Everybody has different reasons.

    That you dispute the sincerity of those who do not want to force people to live long after God has taken them, is beyond repulsive. That you attribute their motivation to soemthing simple and base shows your lack of willingness to understand.

    Don’t even bother replying to this unless you apologize.

  96. 96
    ppGaz says:

    Let’s put it another way. Liberals believe God has taken the soul from the body up to heaven, and it is better to simply allow the body to pass rather than fight the will of God.

    Conservatives on the other hand believe the Will of God is meaningless bunk, and it should be fought at every opportunity

    Post of the Day, Week, Month, and possibly, Year.

    I mean, the year is young, but still …..

    Fabulous.

  97. 97
    scs says:

    That you dispute the sincerity of those who do not want to force people to live long after God has taken them, is beyond repulsive

    Dude – can you NOT READ? I said about three times I believe the left is sincere in their beliefs! I said that the left has a beleif that a life in severe pvs is not a life worth living for them, as “quality of life” seems to be a very important, SINCERE, issue for them. God- paranoid here.

  98. 98
    drindl says:

    Thanks, PB, for the reminder about the other victim of plug=pulling in Texas, where the’ compassionate’ republican state government can’t seem to kill people fast enough. it’s also a reminder that these cases have received barely any press coverage or any attention from the Right. Why? because they were both poor and black, weren’t they?

    And absolutely agree on this:

    Let’s put it another way. Liberals believe God has taken the soul from the body up to heaven, and it is better to simply allow the body to pass rather than fight the will of God.

    Conservatives on the other hand believe the Will of God is meaningless bunk, and it should be fought at every opportunity

  99. 99
    Lines says:

    Oh, and can someone please inform Malkin that internment camps wern’t exactly a celebration of the joys of living? Despite her poorly researched defense of American Internment policies, the actual camps themselves were plagues with infestations and illness.

  100. 100
    scs says:

    I’d reply to all the rest of you people, but I don’t have time here. I just think it’s funny that everytime I post something, no matter how small or uncontroversial I think it is, I come back the next day and see dozens of replies. I guess I do enjoy the controversy sometimes.

  101. 101
    ppGaz says:

    Oh, and can someone please inform Malkin that internment camps wern’t exactly a celebration of the joys of living? Despite her poorly researched defense of American Internment policies, the actual camps themselves were plagues with infestations and illness.

    We had several camps here in Arizona. I’ve visited a couple of the sites. One of them, Poston, along the colorado River, was the subject of a book: The governing of Men, by Leighton. A hard-to-find rare book, but you can get it by having the rare booksters find you some copies.

    It’s a fascinating and scholarly study of one camp and its administration. Illustrated with rare photos.

  102. 102
    ppGaz says:

    Leighton, Alexander H. The governing of men; general principles and recommendations based on experience at a Japanese relocation camp. Princeton, N.J., Princeton University Press, 1945
    Social Work General Stacks, Suzzallo General Stacks
    940.5472 L533g
    Special Collections PNW collection
    979 L533g
    Undergraduate General Stacks, East Asia Library of Congress
    D805.U5 L4 1968

    In case you are interested in finding the book, this will help.

  103. 103
    charliedontsurf10 says:

    Gee, well this is one prog who feels quite certain that if God were to express his/her will verbally for our benefit, the white trash taliban would be the first to dismiss it as the rantings of the liberal media.

  104. 104
    Krista says:

    Richard Bottoms – you around? Would like to drop you a quick email question about your beautiful rant earlier…

  105. 105
    Lines says:

    I’d reply to all the rest of you people, but I don’t have time here. I just think it’s funny that everytime I post something, no matter how small or uncontroversial I think it is, I come back the next day and see dozens of replies. I guess I do enjoy the controversy sometimes.

    No!!!! Don’t go away, its just getting good. The fact that you are bravely ignoring that your comments are slanderous and generic is just priceless! Come on, SCS, you’re just hitting your stride, don’t give up now!

    Oh, and once again, when challenged on a generalization comment, another poorly thought out idea is debunked and sent into the trashbin of commentary. Take note, Mona, this is exactly how your commentary progressed.

  106. 106
    scs says:

    poorly thought out idea is debunked and sent into the trashbin of commentary.

    Please, don’t make me laugh. Who debunked what? I love it how you all put out some unconvincing arguments on here and then you and your friends all pat yourselves on your backs that you all did a great job. Hey, if it makes you feel better, go ahead.

  107. 107
    ppGaz says:

    Who debunked what?

    Right, they’ve been too hard on you.

    Why don’t you take some time and put together a summary of how you arrived at the conclusion that “liberals just want to pull the plug.” Links, cites, and an explanation of how you took the information and digested it into that assertion.

    Take all the time you need. Don’t get in a hurry.

    You said:

    Liberals, for some reason seem to believe that, when in doubt, pull the plug

  108. 108
    ppGaz says:

    I’m talking about severe, PVS brain damage that liberals tend to think is not considered a life worth living.

    You’ll want to explain how you arrived at this, uh, idea.

    Please describe what you think PVS is, and how being in that state constitutes “living a life.” Also explain how you arrived at that conclusion.

  109. 109

    Quote of the Day

    The Quote of the day comes to us from John Cole of Balloon Juice.Some days, Michelle seems to exist only to make Bill O’Reilly look like a straight shoot…

  110. 110
    charliedontsurf10 says:

    This lines loon seems to be after malkin’s gig.

  111. 111
    jack says:

    I pissed a lot of people on the right off with my stance on the Shiavo case–and I think that this child might be in the same condition. You can breathe and twich and be ‘alive’ even though there’s no higher brain function left or possible. Plants do it all the time.

    But those of us with brains find this lefty dogpile just as vile as we found Frist’s diagnosis-via-VCR.

    I didn’t hear any of you crying ‘ghoul’ when former VP candidate John Edwards emulated his namesake and channeled a dead child in a court case based on patently junk science.

    I didn’t hear any of you crying ‘pandering’ when folls insisted that there was cannibalism taking place in NO after Katrina–just to have another club to beat Bush with.

    You are, like your mirror image, the right, fanatic hypocrites. Pro-abortion, anti-death penalty–and Michelle is your perfect mirror, Anti-abotrion, por-death penalty.

    You will whine and pule and moan, until you get caught doing the things you are making such noise about –EXACTLY like Republicans–and they, given the chance, will only too happily keep this endless idiot’s dance going.

    Right now you are BOTH screaming partisanship over this poor girls body. And you’d all gouge your eyes out to retain your ability to be blind to this hypocracy.

  112. 112
    Krista says:

    I didn’t hear any of you crying ‘ghoul’ when former VP candidate John Edwards emulated his namesake and channeled a dead child in a court case based on patently junk science.

    Did he really? I never heard of that. If true, it’s seriously grotesque.

    Jack, you do have a point. The U.S. is so polarized right now. The right is desperate to cling to power. The left is desperate to get some power back. Any topic that enters the public sphere immediately becomes a football, because each side figures that if they leave it alone, the other side will pick it up, run with it, and use it to score points. It is ghoulish. And I don’t know if it’ll ever improve, because any time anybody does try to take the high road, they become defined by what the other side says they are.

    I firmly believe that politics have no place in the life or death of this little girl. Nor do I believe that there are any easy answers to damnable situations like this. And I think that’s why we all get so worked up…because there is no right answer, and because it’s something to which we could all relate.

  113. 113
    ppGaz says:

    I think that the “left”, if there such a thing in the context of this case, would be primarily in favor of having the girl and her family and doctors left alone by the state. If the family isn’t to be trusted or isn’t competant, then a court and a guardian have to represent her interests. What the “left” wants is for the “right” to stop demagoguing life-support cases, a la Schiavo.

  114. 114
    Richard Bottoms says:

    That’s freaking brilliant! I’m gonna write that down.

    It was a typo. I was tired. Pretty standard Netiquette to give typos a pass, but no biggie.

    Richard Bottoms – you around? Would like to drop you a quick email question about your beautiful rant earlier…

    Sure. rbottoms – at -gmail.com

  115. 115
    Lines says:

    I’m trying to get Malkin’s job? Wow, news to me, and another baseless attack with no justification. Those kind of idiocies are what makes the continuation of dialog such an impossibility. I get caught on it too, so I deserve an occasional smack upside the head, but when smacked upside the head, one can choose to apologize or shut the hell up. Its when someone gets that smack (in recent days, Mona and scs come to mind) and they blindly surge forward, ignoring the repeated requests for clarification, and later they ignore the fact that everyone is making fun of them.

    To accuse the disorganized left of something with a broad brush is pretty disingenuous. Its simplistic and usually wrong, as well. If you are going to throw out broad arguments about the left around here, prepare for your allegations to be challenged. To state that the “left” wants to unplug this girl is totally without merit or factual basis, and when that is pointed out, scs acts like everyone is ganging up on her, just so she can avoid having to admit that her broad generalization was wrong, again.

    What I see in all of the blogosphere, but especially here, is that the “left” is deploring the Malkin’s of the world that want to hold up this pretty white girl’s vegitative body and shake it for everyone to see her move. The law is pretty clear on the specifics and there is no reason to politicize a tragedy like this. Why should the “left” that hangs out on blogs like this take accusations from shallow emotionally driven commenters like scs without defending themselves?

    Oh, does all that make me want Malkin’s job?

  116. 116
    Lines says:

    jack, are you still trying to Swiftboat John Edwards?

    Once again, emotional and baseless allegations about someone you don’t like will get you no respect.

    Unlike you, I did do some research on Edwards, and what I found is that he was a good trial lawyer that went after businesses and won. Faulty pool pump suck your child’s innards out? Must be a liberal’s fault. Did your child, born with Cerebral Palsy, suffer a lifetime of pain and debilitation because of malpractice? Must be a liberal’s fault.

    Pathetic attack, Jack. Try harder next time, or wrap your entire comment in assinine humor tags.

  117. 117
    ppGaz says:

    Pathetic attack, Jack.

    Jack’s post qualifies as spoof-level material.

    I’d say we assume he’s a spoofer for now.

  118. 118
    Pablo says:

    I think that the “left”, if there such a thing in the context of this case, would be primarily in favor of having the girl and her family and doctors left alone by the state. If the family isn’t to be trusted or isn’t competant, then a court and a guardian have to represent her interests.

    Uh, ppGaz? Where the hell do you think the court and guardian come from, if not the state? Is yours a spoof comment? It makes no sense at all.

    Nice rant, jack. Spot on.

  119. 119
    ppGaz says:

    Where the hell do you think the court and guardian come from

    The court’s job is to protect the interests of the patient. That view is not just compatible with the left’s position here, it’s essential. The interests of the patient include the patient’s right to die, or at least not to be kept cruelly alive by technology and run-amok government forces pimped up by phony “right to life” advocates.

    No it’s not a spoof, you idiot. What do you think the Schiavo battle was about? Michael’s love life? It was about the integrity of the court’s authority in the case, without which the gruesome circus could have gone on forever, left to the Frists and Jeb Bushes of the world.

  120. 120
    ppGaz says:

    And yes, Pablo, I realize that you are spoofing me.

  121. 121
    Pablo says:

    It was a typo. I was tired. Pretty standard Netiquette to give typos a pass, but no biggie.

    Really? I had no idea. Sorry about that. What was it supposed to say?

  122. 122
    Krista says:

    Pablo – actually, it does make sense.

    I think that the “left”, if there such a thing in the context of this case, would be primarily in favor of having the girl and her family and doctors left alone by the state. If the family isn’t to be trusted or isn’t competant, then a court and a guardian have to represent her interests.

    Emphasis mine.

    What annoys me is when you have these “culture-of-life” peckerheads who will completely ignore the wishes of the legal guardian and the recommendations of the doctors, solely because those wishes are against their own personal belief system, and who then bring the courts and politicians into it.

    To bring the Schiavos back up (sorry), if the situation had been reversed, and if Michael Schiavo had been fighting for Terri to stay on the feeding tube, and her parents had wished otherwise, do you honestly think that pundits and politicians on the left would have been doing remote diagnoses, belittling the courts, and demonizing the husband? I highly, highly doubt it.

    If the girl’s legal guardian and her doctors agree on what should be done, whether it’s keeping her alive or letting her go, then it’s nobody else’s goddamned business.

  123. 123
    Pablo says:

    How is she being left alone by the state if the courts are calling the shots? I know this is 4th grade civics, but the courts are the state.

    Oh, and the Schaivo case was about Terri’s right to self determination, jackass. The integrity of the court had zero to do with it, as all of its decisions had already been upheld over and over.

  124. 124
    Pablo says:

    Krista, I agree completely, except for your analysis of the comment. Yet another emphasis. :)

    I think that the “left”, if there such a thing in the context of this case, would be primarily in favor of having the girl and her family and doctors left alone by the state. If the family isn’t to be trusted or isn’t competant, then a court and a guardian have to represent her interests.

    In this case, whatever family there is has either been found incompetent, or is responsible for putting Haleigh in the condition she’s in.

    Like it or not, this is the Commonwealth of Massachusetts’ problem to deal with. So how does the DCS and the court work this out while the state leaves them all alone? It does not compute.

  125. 125
    ppGaz says:

    How is she being left alone by the state

    The court represents her interests. I don’t know how else to explain it to you.

    (That is, in the non-dysfunctional model, the court sees to it that her interests are protected. In the Frist-Bush model, the court is there to enforce a radical agenda).

    If you need protection from the state or from hostile interests, you go to court to get it. The court is your safety net.

  126. 126
    Pb says:

    Pablo,

    the Schaivo case was about Terri’s right to self determination

    What did she say on the matter?

  127. 127
    ppGaz says:

    The integrity of the court had zero to do with it

    Uh no, the entire “controversy” was an attempt by the right to hijack the court process, even going so far as to have Congress try to force the court to bend to their will.

    The entire thing was a battle between the interests of Terri and the power of the court which was protecting here interests, versus the lunatics (i.e. Jeb Bush and Bill Frist).

  128. 128
    Richard Bottoms says:

    Really? I had no idea. Sorry about that. What was it supposed to say?

    That you don’t make the world safer by fighting a war on two fronts and screwing them both up. The Army is in shambles, recruiting is down, we are alone miliarilly for all intents and purposes, now we’re supposed to pivot to fight Iran?

    We have an insurgency at our back and the Army we’ve trained (what little there is of it) in Iraq basically saying they will fight against us if we invade their next door neighbor.

    Meanwhile the insurgency in Iraq is now becoming the insurgency in Adghanistan. Who would have thought these guys can plan and adapt? I can tell who should have thought, and his initials are Donald Rumsfeld.

    We are facing deep shit. Can’t wait for their next trick.

    Meanwhile, back to the exploitation of the dead and dying.

    I think it’s our guys who push for more funding for social services, parenting classes, daycare, on demand drug rehab, etv. You know, all those things that make tragedies like this less likely.

  129. 129
    ppGaz says:

    Are there really people out there who don’t get that the STATE is a party in the courtroom, just like you are?

    That the figure of Justice weighing blindly the law is depicting the weighing of the state’s position versus yours? That you go to court to get relief from the impositions of the state?

    Good lord.

  130. 130
    Krista says:

    So how does the DCS and the court work this out while the state leaves them all alone? It does not compute.

    Right. Well, I can’t speak for ppGaz. So I’ll just say that I have no issue with Social Services and the courts dealing with this issue, if that’s what has to be done. By “the state”, I meant politicians…partisan ones; ones who are more interested in how to score points off of this. In a perfect world, social services and the courts are non-partisan, so I tend to not think of them when I refer to “the state”, “politicians”, or “government”.

  131. 131
    Pablo says:

    The Army is in shambles, recruiting is down, we are alone miliarilly for all intents and purposes,

    I know of some Brits, Aussies, Italians, Iraqis and others who would not agree. Reenlistment numbers are well over target, and recruitment numbers are on goal as well. The Army is not even close to being in shambles.

    now we’re supposed to pivot to fight Iran?

    Why on Earth would we want to fight Iran? Isn’t the EU looking after them?

    We have an insurgency at our back and the Army we’ve trained (what little there is of it) in Iraq basically saying they will fight against us if we invade their next door neighbor.

    Really? When did the army we’ve trained say they’ll fight us, and which neighbor do we have to attack? I’d love to see a quote.

    We are facing deep shit. Can’t wait for their next trick.

    That last trick, calling for a truce, was pretty scary. Maybe next time, Osama will tell us that he thinks we just have a big misunderstanding, and we should all just laugh it off and go home.

    They’re in deep shit, and they know it. Have a little faith in our boys, Richard. They’re the very best.

    Meanwhile, back to the exploitation of the dead and dying.

    Alrighty, then.

    I think it’s our guys who push for more funding for social services, parenting classes, daycare, on demand drug rehab, etv. You know, all those things that make tragedies like this less likely.

    That was pretty quick. You weren’t kidding.

  132. 132
    Pablo says:

    In a perfect world, social services and the courts are non-partisan, so I tend to not think of them when I refer to “the state”, “politicians”, or “government”.

    Krista, my dear, this is the Commonwealth of Massachusetts we’re talking about. Nothing is non-partisan, nothing is ideology free, and for damned sure nothing is perfect. Social services and the Courts aren’t even close. They are the State, no doubt about it. Any entity that enforces its mandates with badges and guns is the State.

  133. 133
    ppGaz says:

    They are the State

    Mmm hmm. And when the state threatens you, where do you go for relief? Where do you plead your case?

    When your lawyer writes the brief, where does he file it?

    Who reads it?

  134. 134
    Pablo says:

    That the figure of Justice weighing blindly the law is depicting the weighing of the state’s position versus yours? That you go to court to get relief from the impositions of the state?

    ppGaz, when those figures of justice who blindly weigh the law (aaaahahahahahaaaaa!) get their paychecks on Fridays, what do you suppose the upper left corner says?

    Oh, and how do you feel about Samuel Alito?

  135. 135
    Pablo says:

    And when the state threatens you, where do you go for relief? Where do you plead your case?

    Federal District Court.

  136. 136
    Pb says:

    Any entity that enforces its mandates with badges and guns is the State.

    State, or states? What happens when they collide

  137. 137
    ppGaz says:

    Okay, obviously you aren’t serious about this.

    Forget it.

  138. 138
    Lines says:

    Pablo, like so many others, has been inundated and indoctrinated with the belief that the Courts are made up of “liberal activists” just waiting to kill womb-babies and kill helpless white women, and they do it all for the state.

    That type of conspiracy theorist can’t even be made up, it takes a blog like this to unearth them.

  139. 139
    Krista says:

    So, using your reasoning, in cases where it’s State vs. John Doe, there’s not much point, is there? If the courts are automatically part and parcel with the ruling government, and cannot be expected to be neutral…

    And I am not your dear.

  140. 140
    Pb says:

    Krista,

    And those poor saps serving on jury duty are “We the People”, who *are* the state–they make up the state, they fund the state, and therefore, they are puppets of the state! Or something. Also, we have always been at war with Eastasia.

  141. 141
    Pablo says:

    That type of conspiracy theorist can’t even be made up, it takes a blog like this to unearth them.

    Way to build a strawman, dumbass. I never said anything like it, but there you go… But I will ask you the question, since you brought up the subject of judicial activism: How do you feel about Samuel Alito?

  142. 142
    Pablo says:

    OK, it looks as if we need to flash back to some Schoolhouse Rock or something.

    There are three branches of Government. They are the Administrative, the Legislative and the Judicial. All 3 branches of the Government are different branches of the Government including the Judicial branch of the Government which makes them all part of the Government aka the State.

    There will be a quiz on this so you might want to study.

  143. 143
    Lines says:

    OOOhhhh, names already?

    Since you’re so honest in asking the question, I’ll give you my 2 cents and let you pick it apart for whatever ends you think necessary. But remember, only holding hands on the first date, no tongue, k?

    Alito is a party man. His thinking is most clear when he writes the sole dissent, such as cases where the 10 year old girl was searched without a legal warrant. He will side with party, then corporation, then state and somewhere towards the bottom he might start to understand the side of the little guy. This type of elitist Judge has no place on the bench. If I had to pick Roberts vs. Alito, I would side with Roberts.

    Activism will be when Alito is no longer the single dissent, but when he, Rehnquist and Thomas can sway rulings towards their political spectrum instead of ruling on the Constitution.

    I have no fear of Roe v. Wade being overturned. My fear comes from the loss of privacy from other cases possibly being overturned, allowing the state to intrude into our bedrooms and homes in the name of George W. Bush’s Freedom (reserved). Abortion will continue, liberals will make sure that there are safe methods available to women with private hidden clean and sterile hospital rooms available if things go tragically wrong for abortion rights.

  144. 144
    Lines says:

    Stop being a condescending ass, Pablo. Its just going to get you Darrelled around here. Do you not value discussion and debate over namecalling?

    Even within the State’s Supreme Court, the State itself can be a defendent. Are you trying to claim that the State’s Supreme Court cannot be independent of the rulings for and against said State? If so, you’re in a distinct minority that usually ends up on clock-towers and back-woods shacks talking to your fuzzy 20d dice and molesting the slower squirrels.

  145. 145
    Pablo says:

    OOOhhhh, names already?

    You started with the ad hominem, ya putz. Don’t whine to me about blowback.

    My fear comes from the loss of privacy from other cases possibly being overturned, allowing the state to intrude into our bedrooms and homes in the name of George W. Bush’s Freedom (reserved).

    OK, so depending on who is on the court, then we might have a problem with partisanship? You realize that in the scenario you just described, you have the court enabling the state, almost as if they were one…

    …but dependent on who they are.

    Brilliant. Thank you for clearing that up. You’re blind and stupid if you don’t see how that can cut both ways.

  146. 146
    Pablo says:

    Stop being a condescending ass, Pablo.

    Fuck you too, Lines. :)

    BTW, I’m arguing that the Judicial branch of the Government is part of the Government. I know it’s a pretty high falutin’ concept, but there it is.

  147. 147
    drindl says:

    so pablo,

    you say the ‘reenlistment numbers of the army are over target, and recruitment levels are on goal’?

    what flavor koolaid are you drinking? or are you getting messages from outer space in your fillings? no. several of our most senior officers have said, on the record, that ‘the army is broken’ — why else would they be using stop-loss programs, which retain people in service after their contracts are up? why else would they send the same kids back for 4 or 5 consecutive ours of duty? what do you think that does for morale?

    as far as the ‘ Brits, Aussies, Italians, Iraqis and others who would not agree’ — they’re all pulling out of Iraq in 2006.

    When did the army we’ve trained say they’ll fight us, and which neighbor do we have to attack? I’d love to see a quote.

    here you go, pally:

    The Iraqi cleric who once led two uprisings against U.S. forces said Sunday that his militia would help to defend Iran if it is attacked, the official Islamic Republic News Agency reported.

    Muqtada al-Sadr, speaking on the sidelines of a meeting with the top Iranian nuclear negotiator, said his Mahdi Army was formed to defend Islam.

    ”If neighboring Islamic countries, including Iran, become the target of attacks, we will support them,” al-Sadr was quoted as saying. ”The Mahdi Army is beyond the Iraqi army. ‘The Mahdi Army is beyond the Iraqi army. It was established to defend Islam.”

  148. 148
    The Other Steve says:

    scs wrote:

    Dude – can you NOT READ?

    Interesting. You responded without issuing an apology for misrepresenting the positions of people. That’s all I asked for, and you couldn’t even bring yourself to admitting you were wrong.

  149. 149

    Say. If there had been a stronger nannystate looking out for the welfare of the post-born, little Haleigh might not be on the brink of death, might she?

  150. 150
    Lines says:

    Ok, Pablo, your method of debate and discussion differ too much from mine, so I’m just going to hand it over to those that are more forgiving to stupidity like yours.

    Congratulations on digging up that conspiracy that the courts are in with the States, thats some amazing logical work you’ve done. You should write a book on it.

  151. 151
    ppGaz says:

    Pablo apparently thinks that since the ‘state’ owns the courthouse, they also own the court, which makes the court just an instrument of the state.

    Well, it’s a quaint idea. One that would hold true, I suppose, in North Korea. Which would be interesting, if we were talking about North Korea.

  152. 152
    The Other Steve says:

    I didn’t hear any of you crying ‘pandering’ when folls insisted that there was cannibalism taking place in NO after Katrina—just to have another club to beat Bush with.

    Right. I think I was one of the main proponents of the Single Cannibal theory of Katrina.

    HUH!?

    I mean what fucking nutpile did you fall of off? Cannibalism? What the fuck?

    Right now you are BOTH screaming partisanship over this poor girls body. And you’d all gouge your eyes out to retain your ability to be blind to this hypocracy.

    Right. I think you just lost the moral high ground battle to be claiming you’re a moderate.

    Cannabalism? Did we kill Kenny too?

    You bastards.

  153. 153
    Pablo says:

    Wow.

    When did the army we’ve trained say they’ll fight us, and which neighbor do we have to attack? I’d love to see a quote.

    What’s that you’re trying to tell me, pally?

    The Iraqi cleric who once led two uprisings against U.S. forces said Sunday that his militia would help to defend Iran if it is attacked, the official Islamic Republic News Agency reported.

    I’m a nice guy, so I’m going to pretend I didn’t see you completely miss the fact that Richard said the pathetic army we’ve been training so badly was going to turn on us. In the meantime, you can leave the blog and then walk back in acting as though you can read, and try something else. How’s that sound, buddy?

  154. 154
    Pablo says:

    Pablo apparently thinks that since the ‘state’ owns the courthouse, they also own the court, which makes the court just an instrument of the state.

    ppGaz seems to think that “the state” and the Administrative branch of government are one and the same. I keep trying to tell him that there are two other branches, but he’s just not getting it.

    The Court is an instrument of the state.

    The Legislature is an instrument of the state.

    The Executive Office is an instrment of the state.

    None of them own the others, but all of them exist as parts of the state.

    Is this really so difficult to grasp?

  155. 155
    ppGaz says:

    Is this really so difficult to grasp?

    Oh no, we learn at the feet of the master. More, more!!

  156. 156
    Pablo says:

    Congratulations on digging up that conspiracy that the courts are in with the States, thats some amazing logical work you’ve done. You should write a book on it.

    Lines, you blithering idiot, it’s all laid out right here. You should read it some time. It’s fascinating.

  157. 157
    Pablo says:

    Oh no, we learn at the feet of the master. More, more!!

    The proper response is “Thank you.”

  158. 158
    ppGaz says:

    The proper response is “Thank you.”

    You’re welcome!

  159. 159
    Richard Bottoms says:

    They’re in deep shit, and they know it. Have a little faith in our boys, Richard. They’re the very best.

    I have plenty of faith in our boys. I used to be one of ‘our boys’.

    But our boys are constatly asked to deal with geniuses at the top who throw their lives away because of dumb political decisions.

    On the eastern side of the Chosin Reservoir, a U.S. Army unit from the 7th Infantry Division, Task Force Faith, was isolated by a Chinese division, worn down by incessant attacks, and eventually wiped out. Surviors from the 7th I.D. reached Marine lines on 2 December 1950. Some survivors of this force, along with an army tank company and combat engineers, joined Smith’s forces and participated in the breakout. Keeping his units concentrated and moving deliberately, Smith made an aggressive assault to break out of the reservoir. When asked if the Marines were, like the U.S. Eighth Army (to the west), retreating, Smith explained that their fighting withdrawal through Chinese lines did not constitute a retreat. His explanation was abbreviated into the famous misquote, “Retreat, hell! We’re attacking in a different direction!” (recalling the famous quote from Captain Lloyd Williams at Belleau Wood during the First World War, “Retreat, hell! We just got here!”)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B....._Reservoir

  160. 160
    Pablo says:

    I’m sorry, did you contribute something valuable, ppGaz? I hadn’t noticed.

  161. 161
    petersburg says:

    “Why on Earth would we want to fight Iran? Isn’t the EU looking after them?”

    Um, have you been paying attention lately? The Iranians are shielding themselves from sanctions so they don’t have to deal with the EU, by pulling all of their assests out of European banks. They have also broken international seals at three nuclear sites, and you know they are going to try to enrich uranium, for “peaceful purposes”, right after they say Israel needs to be wiped off the map.
    And then you say our recruitment is right on target. Has this just happened recently, because last year our army fell short of it’s goal by the thousands?
    Otherwise your guys’ states’ argument is semantic.

  162. 162
    Pablo says:

    Richard, it seems it’s always been that way, and probably always will be. As long as REMF’s make the decisions, grunts will do the bleeding. But speaking of geniuses throwing lives away because of dumb decisions, have you see the guys we’re fighting?

  163. 163
    Faux News says:

    Pablo:

    I know DougJ. DougJ is my friend. You Sir, are NO DouJ.

    Nice try thought. I’d give it a 4/10.

  164. 164
    ppGaz says:

    I hadn’t noticed.

    That’s okay. Everyone else knows what’s going on here. Your awareness of it is not really important one way or the other.

  165. 165
    jack says:

    Other Steve, there’s this thing called ‘google’, try to use it and look up Katrina/Cannibalism, kay?

    I’m not a ‘moderate’. I’m a freak. I’m a diehard anti-statist. I prefer ‘rational anarchist’, but sometimes anarchy is anything but rational.

  166. 166
    Krista says:

    Pablo, my dear, I can’t speak for everybody, but I know perfectly well that the judiciary is a branch of the government. However, when I refer to not wanting “the state” to get involved in this family’s tragedy, I was referring to publicity-whore politicians. Sorry if my wording threw you into such a tailspin – I mistakenly assumed that you’d glean my meaning from the context of what I was saying. My bad. I’ll try to be more literal in the future.

  167. 167
    drindl says:

    pablo wants me to ‘leave the blog and come back in when i can read’ — he’s certainly touchy, isn’t he? refute his argument and he gets all surly and belligerent. typical chickenhawk.

  168. 168
    Pb says:

    jack,

    Why are we talking about Katrina Cannibalism? I followed the entire Katrina situation pretty closely, but apparently I must have missed the outrage on the right wing over this non-story. Do you guys ever talk about anything that’s actually relevant to any average Americans? Seriously. Stock tips don’t count.

    Anyhow, I saved you the effort and found the original source of it all, here’s the money quote for you:

    RETRACTION: The claim in the first sentence in my post was incorrect. I had been told this was happening, but these claims have turned out to be unsubstantiated. I therefore retract them — but stand behind everything else I wrote without reservation.

    It is reported that black hurricane victims in New Orleans have begun eating corpses to survive.

    Wow, imagine that. A true statement, and a retraction for it as well. The right wing blogs never mentioned that. I wonder what else they didn’t mention about Katrina. Or, as I said the other day, who would hire @#*&( Michael Brown as an emergency preparedness consultant…

    Now. Next time, don’t waste our time with this dishonest and irrelevant crap.

  169. 169
    Pablo says:

    Faux News, I don’t know Doug J., so um…yeah. Whatever.

    refute his argument and he gets all surly and belligerent. typical chickenhawk.

    drindl, I was not surly and belligerent to you. Actually, I was quite kind. It’s not my fault that you’re too stupid to grasp the argument you’re trying to make. I did what I could to point that out to you, and you still seem to think that being in an echo chamber will help to make you right.

    It doesn’t. You’re still wrong, and you’re still stupid. You swung, and you missed by a mile, unless you think we’ve been training al-Sadr’s Mahdi Army. That’s not my fault, buddy.

    If you want to actually refute an argument I’ve made, I’d be ok with that. But you haven’t done it. You attacked an argument you made up. That’s not my fault either.

  170. 170
    ppGaz says:

    You swung, and you missed by a mile

    Sorry, no playing and umpiring your own at-bat.

    We’ll be the judge of who missed.

    Hit the showers.

  171. 171
    Pablo says:

    However, when I refer to not wanting “the state” to get involved in this family’s tragedy, I was referring to publicity-whore politicians. Sorry if my wording threw you into such a tailspin – I mistakenly assumed that you’d glean my meaning from the context of what I was saying.

    The thing is, Krista, that I was commenting on something ppGaz said when you took me to task for it. So, we didn’t set out talking about something you said that I misinterpreted. In fact, the reverse was true. This was never about what you said. In fact, the first thing I said to you was that I agreed with everything you said. Remember?

    You don’t remember, do you? I am not your dear.

    Hmph.

  172. 172
    Pablo says:

    ppGaz, why are you trying to get me in the shower? Have you no substantive repartee?

    Loser.

  173. 173
    Krista says:

    Pablo, I do actually remember that you agreed with much of what I said. But…instead of just asking for clarification on what we meant by the “state” not being involved, even though it was pretty obvious from the context, you decided to go into civics-lesson mode, which only served to raise everybody’s dander. (And the “my dear” thing was condescending…c’mon, admit it.)

    Hmph, yourself. :)

  174. 174
    ppGaz says:

    repartee?

    I’m sorry, were you looking for repartee? I thought this was all about how smart you are.

    BTW, courts are not “the state” in the context of this thread … or much of anything else, either. You can slice it and dice it any way you want, you’re wrong, and we are right.

    “The state” goes to court just like you do, as a party to a case. No different.

    But if you want to keep up your little pretense for a while longer for appearances sake, go right ahead.

  175. 175
    scs says:

    Interesting. You responded without issuing an apology for misrepresenting the positions of people. That’s all I asked for, and you couldn’t even bring yourself to admitting you were wrong.

    Wrong about WHAT Steve? You are insane I think. Again, I said already THREE times that I believe the left is sincere in their beliefs.

    I think it’s pretty ridiculous that you all seem to think that anyone who believes as Malkin does is insincere and pandering for some cause, just as it is ridiculous to think all of those who think the plug should be pulled don’t believe in their stance as well.

    As to your second point, I don’t get whose sincerity you think I’m questioning. I said I believe both sides are sincere in their belief in this debate.

    I said about three times I believe the left is sincere in their beliefs! I said that the left has a beleif that a life in severe pvs is not a life worth living for them, as “quality of life” seems to be a very important, SINCERE, issue for them.

    I will say it again. THE LEFT IS SINCERE IN ITS BELIEFS when they want to pull the plug! Should I say it in another language to make it clearer? And you know what you accused me of? You said I implied the left is NOT sincere in their beliefs.(“That you dispute the sincerity of those who do not want to force people to live long after God has taken them, is beyond repulsive“) I don’t know how else to explain it other than try Hooked on Phonics”. God! I think YOU owe me an apology.

  176. 176
    ppGaz says:

    I said that the left has a beleif that a life in severe pvs is not a life worth living for them, as “quality of life” seems to be a very important

    Describe what you think is “life in severe pvs”.

    What exactly is “severe” pvs? Is there a lesser pvs?

  177. 177
    scs says:

    PVS is persistent vegetative state. As no two people’s brain injuries are exactly the same, no two people in this state are actually in the exact same condition. It all depends on what exact parts of the brain were damaged. Two people might have very similar CAT scans, for example, however, one person might have certain minute parts of their brain spared from injury that allows them to have substantially different awareness than the other person.

    With more sophisticated medical tests available today, medical science is discovering that they know less about this condition than they imaginied and are finding that some people in PVS state have much more awareness than previously thought. In addition, they are finding that people can have substantial recovery from PVS sometimes 10, 15 years later. This is happening more now because we have the medical technology to keep people alive and in good health for years now, and over time stems cells are recruited to the sites of brain and nerve injury to help the patient recover. There was a recent well-known case of a clinically diagnosed PVS firefighter who experienced this recovery after 10-15 years.

    That’s why I say, we just don’t know in some cases. There is no definitive way to diagnose what will happen to a few (not most) patients.

  178. 178
    Krista says:

    What exactly is “severe” pvs? Is there a lesser pvs?

    We see examples of it every day, hon.

    scs – you say that “quality of life” seems to be important to lefties. Maybe I’m being short-sighted, but shouldn’t that be important to everybody? Should the reduction of suffering not be a worldwide priority?

  179. 179
    ppGaz says:

    scs, I’m going to need to see a cite or reference, because what you said there is directly opposite of everything I’ve read on the subject.

    In fact, according to BMA (British Medical Association), any “recovery” from pvs after one year can be explained only by misdiagnosis. In other words, there is no recovery from true pvs. The one-year period is established simply to rule out any possible ambiguity.

    There are no degrees to pvs. You are either pvs, or you are not. If you are, there is no recovery, and no “quality of life.” There’s a corpse which has not been allowed to die.

  180. 180
    scs says:

    Krista, I am just making some personal observations here for the purposes of debate. Maybe if I won the lottery, I could hire a polling company to poll people on the left and right and tally up the exact results to officially pronounce with a percentage just how important “quality of life” and “culture of life” concepts are supported by their respective parties. Until then, I am going by what I’ve seen in the media and people I’ve spoken to in my life. And in those times, I have heard “quality of life” emphasized often by people who identify with Democratic and left causes and the “culture of life” as a frequent comment proclaimed by the right.

    I don’t know what you are all getting so upset about. Yes it is a generalization, but so it is always when we use the terms “right” and “left” to symbolize a whole group of people.

  181. 181
    ppGaz says:

    There was a recent well-known case of a clinically diagnosed PVS firefighter who experienced this recovery after 10-15 years.

    He was misdiagnosed.

    He was not pvs in the first place.

    Misdiagnosis, especially in the past, was relatively common, but is becoming less common as techniques improve.

    However, make no mistake: Terri Schiavo was true pvs. The brain was destroyed, and it does not spontaneously regenerate.

    Want to talk stem cells? Hmm. Write to your congressman. Some idiots in Washington seem to be putting a lid on that avenue of research.

  182. 182
    scs says:

    Perhaps later tonight I will research and cite some references for you all.

  183. 183
    ppGaz says:

    Yes it is a generalization

    You pulled it out of your ass. Don’t try to puff it up and pretend it’s something it isn’t.

  184. 184
    ppGaz says:

    Perhaps later tonight I will research and cite some references for you all.

    Perhaps someday you can do the research first, and then post the horse manure?

    I’m just suggesting.

  185. 185
    scs says:

    Man look for them yourself. You have a computer. They shouldn’t be hard to find. Try searching the New York Times (Science Times) with the word ‘PVS’ for most of that information. Also try U.S. News and World Report for Dr. Bernadine Healy articles.

  186. 186
    ppGaz says:

    Man look for them yourself.

    Try to pay attention. I said, your assertions are counter to what I’ve read. I’ve done my homework already. I am going to need to see something that says that the British Medical Association doesn’t understand pvs.

    Any reference will do.

  187. 187
    Krista says:

    Man look for them yourself.

    Yeah, it doesn’t work that way. If you make a post where you make statements that you’re passing off as fact, the onus is on you to provide the backup. I know you and ppGaz are always at each other’s throats, but even if you weren’t, it’s not his responsibility to provide backup to your assertions.

    In other words, don’t write checks that your ass can’t cash. :)

  188. 188
    Pablo says:

    But…instead of just asking for clarification on what we meant by the “state” not being involved, even though it was pretty obvious from the context, you decided to go into civics-lesson mode, which only served to raise everybody’s dander.

    It’s never a bad time to brush up on your civics! The better you know how it works, the easier it is to spot where it’s broken. :-)

    (And the “my dear” thing was condescending…c’mon, admit it.)

    And not the least bit charming. I am such a cad.

  189. 189
    Pablo says:

    BTW, courts are not “the state” in the context of this thread … or much of anything else, either. You can slice it and dice it any way you want, you’re wrong, and we are right.

    Well, no. You’re a fucking moron, without the slightest clue as to how our government is constructed. You’re not even smart enough to know when to jump on the bandwagon.

    Saying that you’re right doesn’t make it so. Read the Constitution, dumbass. 3 branches of government. One is the courts. It’s not open for debate or interpretation.

    You wanna ignore facts? That’s not my problem either, buddy.

  190. 190
    scs says:

    Okay, all you literalists. I might as well educate you all. Here is what I found after a quick search. Once again, old NYT articles are pay-per-view, and US NEWS didn’t seem to allow you to search for multiple terms. This is what I found instead, which seems like a good article.

    http://www.the-scientist.com/a.....lay/15705/

    Schiavo, whose persistent vegetative state (PVS) lasted 15 years, never regained consciousness, and her autopsy suggested why: After anoxia, her brain had atrophied to about half its normal weight. The reason why Herbert awoke, on the other hand, remains a mystery. “You just can’t tell” whether someone in a vegetative state will recover, says Steven Laureys, an assistant professor of neurology and neurosciences at the University of Liège in Belgium.

    Consciousness disorders, however, are starting to yield some of their secrets to brain-imaging technology. Scans have already linked these disorders to disrupted neural connections and decreased cerebral metabolism. Brain imaging eventually might be able to track, and perhaps predict, an event like Herbert’s awakening – a transition from one state of consciousness to another.

    In a newly published study,[1] Adrian M. Owen, a senior scientist at the MRC Cognition and Brain Sciences Unit in Cambridge, UK, and his colleagues scanned a vegetative patient with positron emission tomography (PET). They discovered that certain brain regions reacted to spoken English sentences much as they reacted in fully conscious subjects. Nine months later, functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) revealed that the patient’s cortex responded partially to semantically ambiguous sentences; this response is thought to tap higher levels of speech comprehension. The patient later entered a minimally conscious state (MCS). “What we may have been picking up in the second visit was his emergence” from PVS to MCS, speculates Owen

  191. 191
    ppGaz says:

    Well, no. You’re a fucking moron, without the slightest clue as to how our government is constructed.

    Well, then you are losing a simple argument to a fucking moron, because you are wrong.

    The court is not “the state” when you are in court. It’s a court. The state, if it’s represented there, is simply a party. That’s the way it works in any civil matter. In any matter which holds the interests of a medical patient.

    We can keep this up all day and all night, and you’ll still be wrong.

  192. 192
    Krista says:

    scs – interesting. For how long was that Herbert person in a PVS, though? It just seems to me that there’s got to be a point when the doctors say, “Okay, it’s not gonna happen”.

    Pablo – the disturbing thing is that I’m more familiar with how your government works than with how my own works. So the civics lesson really was unnecessary. And the “my dear” thing was not charming in the least, nor is you self-deprecatingly calling yourself a cad. (Nice try, though.)

  193. 193
    ppGaz says:

    The reason why Herbert awoke, on the other hand, remains a mystery.

    What’s not a mystery is this: If this person awoke, he was not pvs in the first place. He was just thought to be pvs. What’s changing are the boundaries for diagnosis of pvs, not the condition itself. What lasted 15 years, it ended in consciousness, was not pvs, it was something else. Not my opinion, that’s the assertion of the British Medical Association. Their language, which I have already posted, is that what you have in your description is a misdiagnosis of pvs, not pvs.

    There is no “quality of life” wrt to pvs. There are not degrees to pvs.

  194. 194
    scs says:

    Another good exceprt from that article (check out the pic to go along with it):

    SHOCKING RESULTS:One minute of electrical stimulation was delivered to the wrists of 15 healthy controls and 15 patients in a persistent vegetative state (PVS). Positron emission tomography indicated the activation of various brain regions (red), including the primary somatosensory cortex and thalamus. Blue areas, which were activated less in patients than in controls, included higher-order cortices. (From S.L. Laureys et al., NeuroImage, 17:732–41, 2002.)

    So the PVS patients had less sensory activation in their brain, but they did have SOME activation, including in their higher cortices. That’s why these new tests, not just observations, are very important to make the distinction between minimally conscious and PVS.

  195. 195
    Krista says:

    That’s why these new tests, not just observations, are very important to make the distinction between minimally conscious and PVS.

    That is a good point, and I think it’s one that we can actually all agree on. It’s vitally important that they can improve how they make those diagnoses and those distinctions. Hell, it’s vitally important to reduce misdiagnoses in all fields of medicine, but especially in cases like this, where the patient cannot give information, and where the human brain is still such a mystery.

  196. 196
    ppGaz says:

    That’s why these new tests, not just observations, are very important to make the distinction between minimally conscious and PVS

    Because your 15-year miracle patient wasn’t pvs in the first place.

    If you want to argue that diagnosis is changing, go right ahead. But pvs isn’t changing. There’s no recovery from it.

    So what’s next for you? Arguing that all MCS and PVS diagnoses are to be kept alive forever on the theory that someday they’ll wake up and play Parcheesi?

    Who makes the call? Bill Frist? Bloggers? Or should patients and their families be left alone to work it out for themselves? Because that’s what Schiavo was about. It was never about quality of life, it was always about who decides.

  197. 197
    scs says:

    Krista, he was supposed to be in PVS for 10 years. It’s in the article. I agree that often it is because the condition is misdiagnosed as PVS, when these events occur. However making the correct diagnosis of PVS is not as cut and dried as it seems, and is still often an educated guess at best. I think there are better ways than an autopsy after the fact, to make the diagnosis to see if the guess was right.

  198. 198
    ppGaz says:

    However making the correct diagnosis of PVS is not as cut and dried as it seems

    On this we can agree.

    Now, what about that earlier nonsense about “liberals who just want to pull the plug?”

    During the Schiavo episode, a very large majority of people responded to polling that the government should leave people alone in such situations … that the government overstepped its bounds in trying to interfere. Are all those people “liberals?”

  199. 199
    scs says:

    The problem with Terri is that there was a perception that Michael seemed to fight all attempts to use the latest tests on Terri, that are changing and improving by the year. He also fought to keep all her records private and did not allow hardly any visitors to her bedside or any videos to me made by doctors or the media of her, so that others could see for themselves if her parent’s testimony about her responsivness had any truth to it. And as her guardian, he was legally allowed to do that. That struck many people, including myself, as very odd, and I think it was wrong. So Terri died without any of the latest testing done on her. She died based on an educated guess that we could only confirm after her death.

  200. 200
    ppGaz says:

    Hmm. I don’t agree, but not enough to argue about it.

    Fair enough. You handled yourself quite well today.

    You might actually get good at this yet.

    See ya around.

  201. 201
    scs says:

    Are all those people “liberals?”

    Of course not all. “Right to die” does seem to be a cause championed more often by the “liberals”, but once again, it is all generalities for the sake of simplified discussion and there is overlap on all sides.

  202. 202
    Krista says:

    Oh my heavens…you two actually managed to have a civil conversation. I’m all ferklempt…

    Talk amongst yourselves.

  203. 203
    GTinMN says:

    The problem with Terri is that there was a perception that Michael seemed to fight all attempts to use the latest tests on Terri, that are changing and improving by the year. He also fought to keep all her records private and did not allow hardly any visitors to her bedside or any videos to me made by doctors or the media of her, so that others could see for themselves if her parent’s testimony about her responsivness had any truth to it. And as her guardian, he was legally allowed to do that. That struck many people, including myself, as very odd, and I think it was wrong. So Terri died without any of the latest testing done on her. She died based on an educated guess that we could only confirm after her death.

    On the contrary, Schiavo’s behavior made perfect sense, since a court had examined the abundant evidence that Terri Schiavo was in a PVS and ruled based on it. There was no need to use any more tests. PVS had already been proved again and again, in fact Michael Schiavo had tried several experimental procedures and spent several years with the hopes that Terri might recover before he accepted the tragic reality.

    The court had access to all the records they needed; are you complaining that Terri Schiavo’s medical records weren’t made public? How bizarre! I’ll bet you wouldn’t ever release all of your medical records just to show you really mean it.

    Here’s some actual information about this, in contrast to the nonsense you wrote about ‘an educated guess’:

    As for the correctness of the diagnosis of Terri Schiavo as suffering from PVS, this has been conclusively established. As the Second District Court explained based on an exhaustive review of Ms. Schiavo’s medical records:

    “The evidence is overwhelming that Theresa is in a permanent or persistent vegetative state. It is important to understand that a persistent state is not simply a coma. She is not asleep. She has cycles of apparent wakefulness and apparent sleep without any cognition or awareness. As she breathes, she often makes moaning sounds. Theresa has severe contractions of her hands, elbows, knees and feet.

    “Over the span of this last decade, Theresa’s brain has deteriorated because of the lack of oxygen it suffered at the time of the heart attack. By mid 1996, the CAT scans of her brain showed a severely abnormal structure. At this point, much of her cerebral cortex is simply gone and has been replaced by cerebral spinal fluid. Medicine cannot cure this condition. Unless an act of God, a true miracle, were to recreate her brain, Theresa will always remain in an unconscious, reflexive state, totally dependent upon others to feed her and care for her most private needs. She could remain in this state for many years.”

    The above statement by the District Court sums up the real scientifically established facts of Ms. Schiavo’s physical and mental condition. In all the lurid propaganda of the evangelical right, trumpeted in the media, not a single fact has been brought forward to counter the diagnosis of physicians who have actually examined Terri Schiavo. The few physicians who have denied the validity of the diagnosis of PVS have been linked to evangelical fundamentalist organizations.

    Link

  204. 204
    The Other Steve says:

    Other Steve, there’s this thing called ‘google’, try to use it and look up Katrina/Cannibalism, kay?

    Do a search for ‘Bush eats puppies’ on google.

    Does that prove that Bush is more evil than Hitler? I mean I don’t think hitler ever ate puppies. I did a search on google and I didn’t find anything about hitler eating puppies.

    If Stalin ate a puppy would that be considered cannibalism?

    Go back to your cave, troll.

  205. 205
    The Other Steve says:

    Of course not all. “Right to die” does seem to be a cause championed more often by the “liberals”, but once again, it is all generalities for the sake of simplified discussion and there is overlap on all sides.

    Oh come on. The people claiming Terri Schiavo ought to be forced to live even if it means hooked up to machines for ever are not conservatives… They’re bleeding heart liberals.

    This whole “Culture of Life” strategy on the part of the Republicans was by design intended to slice off the sympathetic Democratic vote. We all know it.

    Want further evidence of my point?

    Most Conservatives were disgusted by the Schiavo affair… and guess who was in on your side? That’s right Jesse Jackson and Ralph Nader.

    Why do you think so many 60’s hippies now vote REpublican? It ain’t because the hippies got more conservative.

  206. 206
    charliedontsurf10 says:

    Hitler was a dog lover and a teetotaler. He was also fond of little children. Little aryan children anyhow. So much for those traits alone nettin’ ya a free pass.

    One thing ya can always bank on with wingnuts. They can’t think any better than they can spell.

    scs Says:

    The problem with Terri is that there was a perception that Michael seemed to fight all attempts to use the latest tests on Terri, that are changing and improving by the year.

    Perception being the operative word.

    Gee, he didn’t want the white trash taliban exploiting his wife. Can you imagine! The nerve of some people. Where does he get off acting responsibly!

    He also fought to keep all her records private and did not allow hardly any visitors to her bedside or any videos to me made by doctors or the media of her, so that others could see for themselves if her parent’s testimony about her responsivness had any truth to it. And as her guardian, he was legally allowed to do that. That struck many people, including myself, as very odd, and I think it was wrong. So Terri died without any of the latest testing done on her. She died based on an educated guess that we could only confirm after her death.”

    Confirm being the operative word. Looks like a pretty educated guess. The white trash taliban, on the other hand, look like 25 watters in a 100 watt world.

    Bummer.

  207. 207
    charliedontsurf10 says:

    Hitler was a dog lover and a teetotaler. He was also fond of little children. Little aryan children anyhow. So much for those traits alone nettin’ ya a free pass.

    One thing ya can always bank on with wingnuts. They can’t think any better than they can spell.

    scs Says:

    The problem with Terri is that there was a perception that Michael seemed to fight all attempts to use the latest tests on Terri, that are changing and improving by the year.

    Perception being the operative word.

    Gee, he didn’t want the white trash taliban exploiting his wife. Can you imagine! The nerve of some people. Where does he get off acting responsibly!

    He also fought to keep all her records private and did not allow hardly any visitors to her bedside or any videos to me made by doctors or the media of her, so that others could see for themselves if her parent’s testimony about her responsivness had any truth to it. And as her guardian, he was legally allowed to do that. That struck many people, including myself, as very odd, and I think it was wrong. So Terri died without any of the latest testing done on her. She died based on an educated guess that we could only confirm after her death.”

    Confirm being the operative word. Looks like a pretty educated guess. The white trash taliban, on the other hand, look like 25 watters in a 100 watt world.

    Bummer.

  208. 208
    scs says:

    On the contrary, Schiavo’s behavior made perfect sense, since a court had examined the abundant evidence that Terri Schiavo was in a PVS and ruled based on it. There was no need to use any more tests. PVS had already been proved again and again

    Did you read the info I posted above? Man I have to explain everything here. The concept of PVS is an evolving concept, changing much in the last few years. Many people have been mistakenly diagnosed as PVS when they were in fact minimally conscious. Terri was never exposed to the latest testing of looking for consciousness patterns in her MRI’s. She had had a CAT scan and an EEG (which results were in question due to technical errors in the test) years ago, (1997 ?) at the time of her trial, way before current testing concepts existed. Even if a large part of her cortex was gone on the CAT scan, it is still possible to have some awareness even with a small amount of cortex left, and I had read somewhere that she had about 30% of her cortex remaining.

    I’m sorry, but because a “judge” rules on a medical diagnosis, it doesn’t make it so. Medical tests are the best answer, the newer the better. And Terri never was given the chance to get these newer tests because Michael didn’t see it fit to give his wife the latest tests, just to make sure, before he allowed her to die. He decided to wait for the autopsy instead. A real loving husband.

  209. 209
    Pablo says:

    He also fought to keep all her records private and did not allow hardly any visitors to her bedside or any videos to me made by doctors or the media of her, so that others could see for themselves if her parent’s testimony about her responsivness had any truth to it

    First, there were hours upon hours of video and untold visits by doctors who testified to Terri’s condition.

    Second, what makes you think that he, or anyone else, has an obligation to “let others see for themselves”? What gives you the right to a look of your own? Media? You think he was obligated to let the freaking media in? Are you nuts?

    Lastly, new tests were not going to restore Terri’s cerebral cortex, ever.

  210. 210
    Pablo says:

    The court is not “the state” when you are in court.

    ppGaz, The court is still part of the state. That entity is not the plaintiff, but it’s still the government, no matter how many times you want to deny that basic fact.

    Your ability to imagine that the state isn’t in charge when the Judicial branch starts making the decisions instead of the Administrative branch. They’re all the state, and they all derive their authority from the same place. If you can’t see that, it must be because you’re blind.

    Krista

    Pablo – the disturbing thing is that I’m more familiar with how your government works than with how my own works. So the civics lesson really was unnecessary.

    Apparently it was, as evidenced by your attempt to chalk it all up to literalism on my part. (How dare I use the literal definition of words?!? Bastard!) Oh, and you’re pretty cranky yourself, so we’ve got that going. :)

  211. 211
    Krista says:

    Pablo –

    How dare I use the literal definition of words?!? Bastard!) Oh, and you’re pretty cranky yourself, so we’ve got that going

    I only get cranky when condescended to. Usually I’ve got rays of sunshine coming out of my ass.

    At any rate, I mistakenly thought that you understood what I was saying from the context, and did not explain myself clearly enough. I’ll admit that freely, and will apologize for my contribution to the crank-fest.

    You still are a bit of a bastard, though. But I suspect you’re proud of that.

  212. 212
    charliedontsurf10 says:

    Nitwit Nation gets blinded by science.

    I’m sorry, but because a “judge” rules on a medical diagnosis, it doesn’t make it so. Medical tests are the best answer, the newer the better. And Terri never was given the chance to get these newer tests because Michael didn’t see it fit to give his wife the latest tests, just to make sure, before he allowed her to die. He decided to wait for the autopsy instead. A real loving husband.

    January 24th, 2006 at 1:34 am

    You can “explain” ’til you’re blue in the face, shmendrik. That’s not gonna change the fact that Michael was right, Frist is cluelessly corrupt and the white trash taliban never gave a fook about this woman in the first place. She was just something to exploit in their bogus culture of strife schtick.

    You wacks need to get some new jokes.

  213. 213
    ppGaz says:

    ppGaz, The court is still part of the state.

    Assuming that you’re not just being obstinate and actually believe the nonsense you post …. I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt here ….

    You are conflating ownership of the building with jurisprudence.

    The court is independent. Otherwise, it cannot function properly as a court. The the extent that it is independent, it is serving its intended purpose. It doesn’t matter who owns the building and whose name is on signature line of the clerk’s paycheck. The court is INDEPENDENT.

  214. 214
    drindl says:

    yeah, krista, pablo is a bastard… but that’s what he lives for.

    here’s what you said, jerk:

    It doesn’t. You’re still wrong, and you’re still stupid. You swung, and you missed by a mile, unless you think we’ve been training al-Sadr’s Mahdi Army. That’s not my fault, buddy.

    perhaps i did not state my point clearly — which was how completely fucked up the whole iraq project is. that was the point of the discussion. our military is depleted and we are funding and supporting a ‘government’ composed mainly of shia militias, who are deeply entwined with the mullahs of iraq. we were gamed by ahmed chalabi, who is oil minister now, and who has always been a spy for iran. whatever the bushes thought they were doing in iraq didn’t happen. as general ricardo sanchez said recently ‘iraq is on the verge of a civil war’…

    so get off my ass.

  215. 215
    Cyrus says:

    Did you read the info I posted above? Man I have to explain everything here.

    You feel like you have to explain everything, scs?Damn, when you post stuff like this –

    I will say it again. THE LEFT IS SINCERE IN ITS BELIEFS when they want to pull the plug!

    I feel like I’m beating my head against the wall.

    I, speaking as a card-carrying representative of The Left (TM), am not emotionally invested in whether or not a complete stranger 1,500 miles away is kept on a feeding tube and ventilator long after all higher brain function has ceased. I can’t do anything about it, it has very little significance as precedent, and even if the actors involved have the worst possible motives and the fiasco has the worst possible outcomes it’s still a much lesser injustice than other sorts of events that some people don’t think about twice.

    What I do want is for people to be able to pull the plug, to have that choice. Your body is the most basic, fundemental, minimal part of, to use legalistic/economic terms, your property. Whether you want to have a child, what you want to eat or drink or what drugs you want to take, how much pain you can tolerate, how much your dignity or self-respect depends on your body… except for in specific and limited circumstances, there should be almost no government-imposed limits on what a consenting adult can do with their own body.

    (In the Schiavo case, what one consenting adult authorized another to do in general terms in writing, and according to him in that specific case verbally, is good enough. But the point is, the burden of proof should entirely be on the government to show that they had both the right and the need to act. They didn’t even come close.)

    When someone feels otherwise, then I disagree, but I can respect them if they’ve thought through what it means to hold that position. When someone feels otherwise because they’re undeniably using the case as a political football, then I disagree, and then I have absolutely no respect for them. They’re wrong, and playing games with our most basic rights purely for personal gain.

    And yes, don’t worry, I know some of the people who were calling Michael Schiavo a Nazi were sincere in their beliefs. But a doctor making a diagnosis on video, people insinuating that Mr. Schiavo had beaten his wife on practically no evidence, people claiming that she could follow a balloon with her eyes when her visual cortex was gone – they were full of shit, all of them.

    So, to summarize: I don’t care about pulling the plug, but if the person/people affected by it do, then it should be their choice. Why are you so unwilling or unable to grasp that difference? Why? Why?

  216. 216
    petersburg says:

    Being from St petersburg and all, and witnessing first-hand the pathetic nature of the Shaivo affair, I am laughing at some comments here.

    First, to say that bleeding heart liberals were the ones pandering then is a fucking idiotic mistake. Ever heard of Randall Terry of the anti-abortion group Operation Rescue? These brainless morons are not liberals. People who sent their kids to bring this woman water, only to get their kids arrested, are aburd religious fundamentalists with no cognitive abilites and without a grasp of reality.
    Jesse Jackson is a camera mugging publicity whore and I don’t ever take him seriously. Ralph Nader is so insignificant I don’t care about him either. These two are your examples for this? What fucking planet are you on?

    And to scs, how many medical tests would it take to satisfy you? A million? I don’t know where you’re from, but this issue had been going on for a long time, and you only think there wasn’t enough done, because you only got interested in the tragedy when it became a “cause” for the republicans, and therefore made national headlines.

    I personally hate both parties because they couldn’t come to a private resolution between themselves. NEITHER of them could honestly put aside their own feelings. For the honor of your life, wouldn’t you want people NOT to drag out your death in the public square? Having said that, I think Michael cared more for her wishes than did the parents, which is why he eventually stopped getting tests. Again, how many tests showing you pvs do you have to go through before you rethink if that person really wanted to be alive at such a state. So many people take the “err on the side of life” side, but then so fucking hypocritically wouldn’t want themselves to be. Put it in writing that you want to be kept on machines for decades if that’s what it takes, no matter what doctors and courts decide. Who would want that?

  217. 217
    scs says:

    Again, how many tests showing you pvs do you have to go through before you rethink if that person really wanted to be alive at such a state

    See you are confirming my point for me. The left feels that, when in doubt, pull the plug. Okay, I admit that was kind of an inflamatory, probably offensive way to phrase that, but I still think there is a kernel of truth to that statement. The left (and again I am just saying left for the purposes of political debate here) seem to feel that other, newer tests on Terri were uneccessary. Why?

    As I have posted and many people know, the testing on PVS patients has vastly improved in the last few years before Terri’s death. Terri’s tests were done about 10 years ago, way before this new testing. There was a small, okay admittedly very small, chance that the new tests would pick up something the old ones didn’t, even with a very damaged cortex. I say that before we allow someone’s husband to kill them, we give them the latest tests that we have, just to make extra sure.

    However, the left did not seem to feel that new tests were any kind of priority. They seemed to feel that 10 year old technically flawed EEG’s test on Terri were good enough for them. And why is that? Because deep down I believe they feel that even IF Terri had been found to have had SOME small minimal consciousness or awareness in her new tests, that in their opinion, her life was really worth saving anyway. Her life would not meet their view of the minimum standards of a good “quality of life”, and felt that she would be better off dead anyway.

    So there were still some unresolved questions about Terri’s actual condition before her death, that could have been solved by newer tests. But the left thought that these doubts were acceptable, and that they should just “pull the plug anyway” and just wait for the autospy instead. Sorry, but I stand by my original statement.

  218. 218
    scs says:

    And by the way, a few words on Terri’s EEGs. Dr. Bernadine Healy, a writer for US News and World Report, was one of the few who had read the background on them and actually seen the results of Terri’s EEGs. She had reported that, according to medical records, they had had some technical problems when they were given that put the results in question in the first place. The EEG’s were never given again to confirm because Michael didn’t want that. Do you also realize that so many people in the media were quoting Terri’s “flat EEG’s” as fact, which according to Dr. Bernadine Healy was false. She reported that she had seen them and they were not “flat”. First of all, if a person is even alive, their EEGs will not be “flat”. Dr, Cranford, a right to die activist hired by Michael, was the one who put out that term to the public. Since the term “flat” as applied to an EEG is not really a technical term anyway, and more a descriptive one, he could get away with saying that.

    If you noticed, EVERYTIME the media quoted Terri’s “flat EEG’s”, right after that it was written, “as reported by Dr. Cranford”. Never ONCE were the results reported independently. Since the actual medical results were private and at Michael’s discretion and never released, there was no way to independently confirm they were “flat”. So the media was quoting something as fact, and everyone was using that as a confirmed fact, that was not a confirmed fact at all.

  219. 219
    Pb says:

    scs,

    Tirhas Habtegiris is dead, and against her expressed wishes.

    Did the left say “pull the plug”? No.

    Did the right say a goddamned thing besides ‘maybe she should have bought ventilator insurance’? Was there any emergency legislation? Any flights to or from Texas in the dead of night? No.

    Fuck you.

  220. 220
    petersburg says:

    scs, No see, your assumption that everyone sees the world from your perspective is naive. In the eyes of many, there wasn’t any doubt lingering. You’re grasping at the tiniest little argument that you admit would probably not prove to be much. You just so don’t want to be wrong about your statement about the left being careless about life, that you come off a little obsessed. Personally, you have every right to your opinion, and I’m sure there are people of whom you describe. But to assume that millions of people you label to all have the same exact beliefs about all the significant issues is just ignorant. Keep believing your prejudices about people and you will never fully learn the issues involved. Open your mind a little, a least.

  221. 221
    scs says:

    All I’m saying PB (if that’s who you are), is give the people the best medical tests that you can. Don’t pull the plug unless you are sure. So sue me. I know next to nothing about Tirhas Habtegiris or her condition or circumstances. Why? Because the mainstream media, where I get my news, never made it a story.

  222. 222
    scs says:

    Please Petersburg, I am the one who actually bothered to inform myself about PVS and the changing medical understanding of it. Many of the rest of you all were content to listen to the judges’s 10 year old characterization of it. You are the ones that need to open your minds to medical facts.

  223. 223
    Pb says:

    scs,

    In that case, by all means, check it out for yourself. You can start with my posts in the comments both here and in the original Haleigh story. Or, search for her name, or for “ventilator insurance” if you want to read callous, offensive nonsense falsely purporting to be libertarianism from Slate.

  224. 224
    petersburg says:

    Please, scs, I have been reading about this since when it happened in my local paper, and followed it up until all the wackos made a cause out of it. Sorry if I don’t take you seriously with your late interest and self-glorification of how much you know about this. You only know what you want to. Like “liberals let people die”. That judge was a conservative republican. And it wasn’t just his characterization of it. How many courts agreed, scs? All of them. What do you need here to be satisfied? What new “changing medical understanding” is it gonna take to agree with your point of view? You wouldn’t stop until you got the answer you wanted.

  225. 225
    petersburg says:

    as a matter of fact, scs, what have you put in your will concerning these medical facts and machines? How have you specified you’re treatment following a potentially devastating situation?

  226. 226
    scs says:

    I would have been satisfied with one MRI given to the woman, ever. I think every PVS patient deserves that today. They would have had to remove her brain implants first, because the metal in them would have disrupted the scan, but apparently the doctor who implanted them recommended Michael remove them years ago anyway, as they were an infection risk, and I don’t think the operation was extremely complicated. Less risky than death anyway.

    And I have no living will. I don’t believe in them anyway. There is no way to predict what condition you may end up in, and what chances of recovery you may have. I feel that these decisions should be made by brain specialists through MRIs to look for minimal consciousness and other doctors to look at other systems. If I have a good chance to live, or recover, then keep me hooked up. Otherwise, don’t. But at least give me the right tests before the decision to kill me is made.

  227. 227
    petersburg says:

    How can you determine what the right tests are? If a CAT scan showed that your brain had severely atrophied, would you want to be kept alive? What is it that would make you say, ok, now.

  228. 228
    Devil's Advocate says:

    Heavens!

    You ought to know that la Malkin is a media slut.

    I am sure she does not believe any of the words she writes. All she cares about is to whip up intellectually-challenged right-wingers into a frenzy.

    It gets her speaking fees, notoriety, and an audience to buy her obnoxious, one-sided, books.

    In other words, la Malkin is a whore. She will use any trick in the book to get publicity and money into her bank account.

    You, right-nutters, are so stupid, that you cannot even figure out that you are being manipulated for individual profit.

    In the end, it is your abysmal stupidity that will be your come-uppance.

    The polls are showing very clearly that Americans are able to think in other terms than black and white.

    Enjoy your power while it lasts. You will be really sore when the backlash comes.

    F… you, fascists!

  229. 229
    Pablo says:

    F… you, fascists!

    Fondle?
    Felch?
    Frame?
    Fight?
    Fling?

    Come back and ‘splain it, smart feller! Otherwise, there is only Malkin.

  230. 230
    Pablo says:

    Did the left say “pull the plug”? No.

    Did the right say a goddamned thing besides ‘maybe she should have bought ventilator insurance’?

    Did the left say a goddamned thing except ‘maybe she should have bought ventilator insurance’? Did the right say “pull the plug”?

    You fucking partisan hack.

  231. 231
    Pablo says:

    drindl, child of unmarried weasels, I’m going to explain this to you slowly, because I think you’ll have trouble keeping up otherwise.

    You seem to have forgotten how we got here.

    perhaps i did not state my point clearly—which was how completely fucked up the whole iraq project is. that was the point of the discussion. our military is depleted and we are funding and supporting a ‘government’ composed mainly of shia militias, who are deeply entwined with the mullahs of iraq. we were gamed by ahmed chalabi, who is oil minister now, and who has always been a spy for iran.

    Let’s review. Richard Bottoms said:

    We have an insurgency at our back and the Army we’ve trained (what little there is of it) in Iraq basically saying they will fight against us if we invade their next door neighbor.

    I quoted him and replied:

    Really? When did the army we’ve trained say they’ll fight us, and which neighbor do we have to attack? I’d love to see a quote.

    You, by then drunk with glee at the opportunity to display your brilliance and smack that mean old Pablo down, said:

    here you go, pally:

    and then proceeded to furnish a quote which finds Moqtada al-Sadr’s Mahdi Army as saying that they would fight us if we attacked Iran.

    WE DID NOT TRAIN THE MAHDI ARMY, YOU FRIGGING ‘TARD. Therefore, a quote saying that the Mahdi Army would fight us does not equate to the Army we trained being willing to fight us. Your quote does not answer the question asked, no matter what you think it means. Now, you want to employ Krista’s clever little trick which is that after you try to correct me and screw it up completely, you then try to cover that by offering the notion that I misunderstood you from the outset. The problem is, I didn’t start the argument with you. I was not responding to you, I was responding to Richard. His quote framed my question. You jumped in, responding to my question, and your “answer” is irrelevant. You tossed in a rebuttal that just doesn’t rebut.

    Next time, try an answer that pertains to the question. You might not look so stupid.

  232. 232
    Pablo says:

    The court is INDEPENDENT.

    So is the Administration. So is the Legislature. All three are compnents of the state. But the court isn’t independant. Their job is to apply the laws, as written by the legislatures. They don’t freelance. They apply the rules they’re given, those created by other parts of the state. So, even if there’s a crappy law, the courts are obligated to apply it, unless and until it is repealed or overturned.

    The courts all tax funded and all of their mandates are enforced through implied violence. All three are parts of the state.

    Try getting a contested divorce, better yet with custody issues. Then tell me that the court isn’t the state. Or, just tell me where you think the courts derive their authority from. Fairies? God? Or could it be from the Constitution, which is the foundational document of the state?

  233. 233
    drindl says:

    here pablo fuckface,

    the original point was that iraq is a dead end. the strategy was nonexistent and it is destroying our army. stop fucking around with whether we trained one particular militia or another out of hundreds. it isn’t relevant. here is what is:

    WASHINGTON (AP) — Stretched by frequent troop rotations to Iraq and Afghanistan, the Army has become a “thin green line” that could snap unless relief comes soon, according to a study for the Pentagon.

    Andrew Krepinevich, a retired Army officer who wrote the report under a Pentagon contract, concluded that the Army cannot sustain the pace of troop deployments to Iraq long enough to break the back of the insurgency. He also suggested that the Pentagon’s decision, announced in December, to begin reducing the force in Iraq this year was driven in part by a realization that the Army was overextended.

    As evidence, Krepinevich points to the Army’s 2005 recruiting slump — missing its recruiting goal for the first time since 1999 — and its decision to offer much bigger enlistment bonuses and other incentives.

    and that’s the last i have to say to you because you are too much of an asshole to bother with. in any case, why aren’t you in iraq fighting like a man, bedwetting chickenhawk?

  234. 234
    Barry says:

    I’ve skipped to the end of the comments (over 200), so please forgive me if this has already been covered.

    I’d like to point out that the Schiavo protesters brewed up a national fuss over Terri, but seemed to not give a flying f*ck as people were (and continue to be) pulled off of life support in Texas, under a law signed by their King, George Bush. Of course, that’s different – that’s money.

  235. 235
    Pablo says:

    here pablo fuckface,

    Welcome to scrollover country, you illiterate fool.

  236. 236
    Robert says:

    Good lord … you’re worring about what a loon like Malkin has too say?

    You better check in with David Duke as well then.

  237. 237
    steve jung says:

    pb raised a very good point much earlier that hasn’t been addressed. Why have Malkin et al been completely silent about a conscious woman in Texas suffocated by having her ventilator removed against her wishes because she couldn’t afford to pay for treatment –permissible under a law signed by George W. Bush? Or the little boy put to death under the same law against his mother’s wishes?

    These are much worse than the cases of Terry Schiavo and Miss Pourtre, and yet don’t even merit a mention from the pro-life crowd. Apparently partisanship trumps principles.

  238. 238

    […] The fights they pick are not without merit, though it’s sometimes hard to decide which side is thinking about it more clearly, if anyone — and so I’ll punt and just say “follow the links”: a non-definitive summary would note that Sullivan has clashed with Glenn Reynolds and with James Taranto and become an inside joke among numerous others. Cole is currently in the middle of a blog fight with Dan Riehl, just concluded one with Red State, and before long will probably go another round with Michelle Malkin. […]

  239. 239

    […] The fights they pick are not without merit, though it’s sometimes hard to decide which side is thinking about it more clearly, if anyone — and so I’ll punt and just say “follow the links”: a non-definitive summary would note that Sullivan has clashed with Glenn Reynolds and with James Taranto and become an inside joke among numerous other bloggers. Cole is currently in the middle of a blog fight with Dan Riehl, just concluded one with Red State, and before long will probably go another round with Michelle Malkin. […]

Trackbacks & Pingbacks

  1. […] The fights they pick are not without merit, though it’s sometimes hard to decide which side is thinking about it more clearly, if anyone — and so I’ll punt and just say “follow the links”: a non-definitive summary would note that Sullivan has clashed with Glenn Reynolds and with James Taranto and become an inside joke among numerous other bloggers. Cole is currently in the middle of a blog fight with Dan Riehl, just concluded one with Red State, and before long will probably go another round with Michelle Malkin. […]

  2. […] The fights they pick are not without merit, though it’s sometimes hard to decide which side is thinking about it more clearly, if anyone — and so I’ll punt and just say “follow the links”: a non-definitive summary would note that Sullivan has clashed with Glenn Reynolds and with James Taranto and become an inside joke among numerous others. Cole is currently in the middle of a blog fight with Dan Riehl, just concluded one with Red State, and before long will probably go another round with Michelle Malkin. […]

  3. Quote of the Day

    The Quote of the day comes to us from John Cole of Balloon Juice.Some days, Michelle seems to exist only to make Bill O’Reilly look like a straight shoot…

  4. Malkin the voice of the braindead…

    Michelle needs to just shut up. It didn’t work the first time, it won’t work this time… Radio talk show host Michael Graham, now at Boston’s WTKK, is also staying on top of the Haleigh Poutre case. Be sure to…

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