In my view, a positive development:
Warning that the Evangelical right has made alarming gains in social and political influence, a leading Jewish church-state watchdog is calling for a tougher and more unified Jewish response.
Abraham Foxman, national director of the Anti-Defamation League, speaking to the group’s national leadership here last week, signaled a sharp shift in ADL policy by directly attacking several prominent religious right groups and challenging their motives, which he said include nothing less than “Christianizing America.”
Good for you, Abe. I’m sick to f-cking death of theocrats acting as though they have a right to draft public policy – things that affect you and me and everybody else, whether we subscibe to cult X or not. And I’m sick of the politicians who court the theocratic vote for their own cynical reasons. Drug approval springs to mind. Pharmacists have no right to say which prescriptions to fill and not fill, despite the companies and legislatures who enable them. Extremists demand no activist judges, or more activist judges, or any judge who will enforce their theocratic perspective. Pat Robertson may not set foreign policy but he sure has a knack for screwing it up. And on and on.
The ADL is hardly the first group to say what needs to be said, but Foxman’s influence could bump the debate a couple of levels. Now we won’t always have bobblehead shows ‘balance’ some American Family Association nutter with an AUSCS non-believer, but instead we’ll have an evangelical arguing with a Jewish person.
Er. Call me overly sensitive, but when you smoosh this story down to a water-cooler game of telephone the sound bite comes out sounding like evangelicals versus Jews. Polling by the ADL confirmed that 70 percent of church-going Americans, and 80 percent of evangelicals, believe that religion is under attack, which suggests at the very least that only 20 percent of evangelicals have the ability to tell offense from defense*. At a time when fundamentalists have made an art form out of the siege mentality it seems like this kind of move feeds right into that paranoid mindset. Not only is religion (replace with, ‘fundamentalist Christianity’) under attack, it’s under attack by Abe Foxman. Or maybe I’m full of it.
As I see it this could go two ways. The Council on American-Islamic Relations could join the fight, which at least by itself might prove unhelpful. Alternatively, Foxman could link up with the UCC and the Unitarian Jihad, and CAIR, and make this a fight between the extremists and everybody else rather than a fight between Christianity and one or both of America’s minority religions.
For more, see the Left Coaster.
(*) To illustrate what I mean: 60 percent of churchgoers and 69 percent of evangelicals responded in favor of forced prayer in schools.
Sixty-nine percent of Evangelicals and 60 percent of weekly churchgoers said there should be organized prayer in public schools, according to the survey, and 89 percent of Evangelicals agreed that religious symbols like the Ten Commandments should be displayed in public buildings.
Matt
About time. If he yells loud enough, maybe it will discourage the disingenuous use of the term “Judeo/Christian” by evangelicals when talking about thier values.
Jack Roy
Oy. Must dissent. I don’t think it’s a very good precedent to start having “Jewish” vis a vis “Evangelical” positions on these matters. I like the status quo where Safire and the other 30% of Jews vote Republican, and Republicans make sure to play nice with us. You divide too cleanly along those particular religious lines, and Godwin violations start to look a lot less egregious.
I don’t like Christian theocrats writing public policy either; I’m just saying the better remedy is to beat them during elections once in a while.
Steve S
But, Tim. The United States is a Christian nation.
Sure, that may not be what the founders intended, but it’s what Jerry Falwell wants and we have to listen to him because he speaks to God.
Steve
I think it’s important to give the lie to the claim that a bunch of “secular humanists” want to eliminate religion from public life. A lot of very devout people happen to believe that religion is a private matter.
Richard Bottoms
The Republican implosion is so satisfying to watch. The devil’s bargin made with the Christian Fundamentlist factions of the country is coming back to haunt them at last.
Too bad it’s taken 25 years, but better late than never.
Pass the popcorn please.
Dodd
“60 percent of churchgoers and 69 percent of evangelicals responded in favor of forced prayer in schools.”
I find that hard to believe. Can you back it up with proof? That numbers along those lines supported allowing prayer in schools is easily believed, but that so many would support “forced prayer” leaves me very skeptical. The actual question asked would be necessary to determine whether or not that’s a legitimate stat.
Tim F.
In order to eilminate any confusion I’ve replaced my interpretation with the relevant passage from the article. As far as I know they haven’t released the details of the survey yet.
cd6
I hope this doesn’t degenerate into arguments over which is the one true religeon
But if it does, I hope that the finale to THAT (which one can only assume would be a bloody, mass fight to the death) gets on broadcast on cable TV and not just pay per view
Pb
Heh. Just say no, kids–don’t give in to Prayer Pressure.
Davebo
“organized prayer” and “forced prayer” in schools are exactly the same thing.
But don’t take my word for it, just see the results in Santa Fe Texas.
John S.
This just in…
While many tinfoil hat-wearing conspiracy nuts tout that the 2004 election was “stolen”, the GAO (a decidely non-partisan non-tinfoil hat-wearing entity) finds that there may be something to their paranoia.
Read the story
tyree
Since before it’s founding America has been a Christian country. This foundation has been under attack from within for years. Some claim it is illegal to post the 10 Commandments on a paid sponsorship banner. Others say that a WWII memorial cross on a hill is the end of civilization as we know it. Don’t you have more important things to get upset about? This reminds me of Dr. Sanitys essay on Bush Derangement Syndrome that explains why so many people hate the President but ignore the the terrorists who saw off peoples heads. Prayer in school in America never lead to planes flying into buildings. Extremeism is the problem. Jews in America have had the least discrimination, the most success and the most safety of any country they have lived in. I saddens me to think they cannot have more tolerance for the beliefs of a country that has been so good to them.
Marcus Wellby
To me, the most intersting quote was:
Will be interesting to see which side wins the debate — support for Israel or domestic agenda.
Marcus Wellby
Why is it always the 10 Commandments? Why never the Beatitudes? Or does “Blessed are the meek” or “Blessed are the peacemakers” just not fit in to the American brand of polito-Christianity?
capelza
As Marcus Welby says..why always the Ten Commandments? Aren’t only three of them illegal at this point in time anyway? I agree, why not the Beatitudes?
I’m old enough to remember “organised prayer”..and yes it was forced in that this Catholic child in a overwhelmingly Southern Baptist area was ostracised and God Forbid I made the Sigh of the Cross during the morning prayer session. I have always wondered how the sole Jewish teacher in the school must have felt. If some group tried that on my kid’s public/secular schools they’d have a lawsuit on their hands.
Is the faith of the Christian Right so weak that prayer must be a requirement? Need that extra nudge, because obviously you all feel that private, personal prayer ain’t cutting it.
And please…do some REAL research of the faith of the founding fathers. Off the top of my head, wasn’t it Adams who was a Unitarian? The same denomination that some county in Texas refuse to recognise as a valid reliogion for tax purposes last year. If the Founding Fathers had wanted this to be a Christian Nation, they would have put the Ten Commandments in the Constitution…
a guy called larry
Why is it always the short version of the 10 Commandments, anyway? everyone really should hear about what a jealous God does (in a totally loving way, of course) to His children who make goo-goo eyes at another god, or about our neighbor’s manservants. It’s the only way to get a handle on this God.
DaveC
Foxman could link up with the UCC and the Unitarian Jihad, and CAIR, and make this a fight between the extremists and everybody else
It’s unfair to lump UCC in with the extremists.
Darrell
I see, those [ick!]Christians should be stopped from legally organizing and advocating their views at the polls. But those on the left trying to take away 2nd amendment rights and legalize racism through affirmative action, well.. they should just keep up the good work, right?
ppGaz
Great post, Tim.
Steve
Sooooooo, attacking right-wing groups and challenging their motives is the same thing as stopping them from legally organizing and advocating their views at the polls? You’d think left-wing groups never get attacked or have their motives challenged.
SoCalJustice
Tim F.
CAIR are extremists – not necessarily the rank and file people members who legitimately need representation for their community – but their leadership is almost exclusively comprised with Islamic maximalists and not people who honestly are interested in interfaith dialogue.
If you think they’re going to join a battle against theocracy, you’re mistaken. Maybe they will be an “ally of convenience” against a model of theocracy different then their own, but it’s probably a mistake to enlist religious zealots in a battle against religious zealotry.
The Disenfranchised Voter
Oh brother. Well, get ready for some education.
I suggest you read the Treaty of Tripoli.
Article 11 of the 1797 Treaty of Tripoli (which was drafted during George Washington’s second term and was unanimously approved by the Senate and signed by President John Adams) states:
As the Government of the United States of America IS NOT IN ANY SENSE FOUNDED ON THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION [emphasis added]; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
or you can read some quotes from the founding fathers:
Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814
In his, “A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America” [1787-1788], John Adams wrote:
“The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses.”
and
“. . . Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind.”
The United States of America is not, and never was, a Christian Nation.
Darrell
Look, I’m no fan of Pat Roberts, whom I believe to be a outright kook, but I see no evidence that he speaks for a significant percentage, much less a majority of religious conservatives. But you’re right, challenging motives is not the same as ‘stopping’ them. I thought the ‘theocrat’ label was a bit over the top
The Disenfranchised Voter
If their views are unconstitutional, and organized school prayer is, they have no right to pass legislation that violates the constitution.
They can go fuck themselves if they think the government doesn’t have to abide by the ideals laid out in the constitution. Frnakly, we already know they put their religious beliefs over the Constitution. Just look at the Terri Schiavo episode for proof.
tzs
Bloody hell, you’d think none of these religious nuts had ever studied any history….
I predict, the day after we have the US become a “Christian Nation”, we’ll see the start of the 30 Years War all over again. And that’s not to mention the dogfights what will start between the Baptists, the Mormons, and the Episcopalians.
Doesn’t ANYONE read Western history?! Sheesh!
The Disenfranchised Voter
*no right to force the goverment to pass
Krista
They have all kinds of tolerance for their beliefs…they just don’t want their children to have to be forced to pay lip service to those beliefs while in taxpayer-funded school.
I don’t know…I was brought up Catholic, and now consider myself Agnostic, and if someone wants to be religious, and if that makes them happy, then that’s great for them. But I just don’t understand why certain people feel that their faith should be interspersed throughout every aspect of the society in which they live. Why can people not be content to celebrate their faith inside their church, inside their homes, and inside their hearts? Why does it have to be such a big show-and-tell?
ppGaz
Nope. Not a “christian” country. And not gonna be.
“Pursue the blessings of liberty.”
Not christianity. Liberty.
SoCalJustice
But since I just don’t want to knock a notion down without adding a suggestion, you might want to take a look at MPAC – the Muslim Public Affairs Council.
They have some extremists in their leadership too, but on the whole, are much more reasonable than CAIR.
They are hardly perfect. For example, their leader, Salam al-Marayati, told an L.A. radio station after September 11:
My guess is that he was hoping against hope – even though he probably knew – that it wouldn’t be Bin Laden and that he was trying to protect his community from what he felt was an inevitable backlash. But I’ve heard him speak several times and he’s sometimes fairly reasonable.
CAIR used to organize conferences where they’d routinely call for Jihad, and not the “peaceful, internal struggle” variety.
Mac Buckets
Funny, I thought this was America, where the people decided what business they were in, rather than the government. Oh, well, personal freedom was nice while it lasted.
SeesThroughIt
As Stephen Colbert said, “I don’t trust books–they’re all fact and no heart.”
Sojourner
So you would support a vegetarian who refused to sell chicken at KFC?
ppGaz
.
Pharmacy is a tightly licensed and regulated practice. Pharmacists are held to strict rules of conduct, as they should be. They don’t decide what to sell or whom to sell to. In most states, boards of pharmacy, and in all states, federal laws, dictate those things.
ppGaz
In case you think the foregoing is just my opinion, MB, this is from the Model Pharmacy Act available on the NABM (National Association of Boards of Pharmacy) web site:
Note that it does not say “May be performed at the discretion of the pharmacist.”
It does provide discipline for:
I suggest you read the entire Model Act and familiarize yourself with the extent to which pharmacy, pharmacies and pharmacists are not part of ordinary “business”.
Dodd
Much appreciated. As amended, it does indeed say something very different from “forced prayer.” I won’t argue with the poster who asserts that “organized” and “forced” are the same thing – I will simply note that, while that may be the practical effect in some instances, they are not in principle. I imagine that most people being asked if they support the former would not assume they would be interpretted as saying they supported the latter – to which they might well give a very different answer.
I’m not an evangelical Christian myself, but I know enough of them to know the usual caricatures of them are usually pretty wide of the mark. The majority of American evangelicals are firmly committed to religious pluralism and freedom and would no more want their specific brand of theology forced on everyone than they would want someone else’s forced on them.
The Disenfranchised Voter
Should a pharmacist who is a Christian scientist be able to deny everyone their prescriptions and instead supply them with herbal remedies because of their own personl religious beliefs?
You really should learn to pick your battles better Mac. This one isn’t really debatable.
Zifnab
You’re going to have to introduce me to this group of gentleminded, open-hearted, equal opportunity evangelicals you run with. Down in Texas, there’s the religious man who keeps to himself and there’s the religious man who beats down your door till you convert or die. By and large, people put forward varying degrees of effort when it comes to trying to convert you, but the only evangelicals I’ve ever met tend to be rather unforgiving when it comes to who’s right and who’s wrong and who’s allowed to practice religion in their country when they’ve got a say in it.
Beej
Two points:
1. Evangelical is not a synonym for right-wing ideologue. Not all evangelical Christians are followers of the Jerry Falwell/Pat Robertson/James Dobson school of paranoid victimhood and belief that anything short of the full “Christianizing” of everything is boundlessly evil and the result of the “secular humanist” conspiracy.
2. The insistence of these right-wing, “Christian” ideologues that this is a Christian nation is based upon a whole series of suppositions and random facts going all the way back to the Puritans and Pilgrims who fled to the New World to be able to freely practice their religion. These types just choose to ignore the fact that the Pilgrims and Puritans were fleeing FROM exactly the same kind of state religion that the Falwells and Robertsons would so love to see enshrined here. And, of course, one of the first acts of the Puritans was to ban any religion but their own. Don’tcha just love it?
Steve S
Honestly… I think the best way to fight this issue, is to not talk about secularism, but to simply point out that the people who advocate for a State Religion must not have much faith if they think they need the state’s approval.
Shygetz
Doesn’t work–these people believe that their religion is the sole cause of all social good in this country. Therefore, they would force their religion into the public square to eliminate crime, poverty, terrorism, and piloidal cysts.
Personally, I’d rather make them decide exactly what flavor of Christianity we are all gonna be forced to observe. That should cull the evangelicals/fundamentalists away from the normal churchgoer, and make them less of a problem.
Krista
Shit, no wonder they like their guns so much, then. It’s to keep all the proselytizers away from the door.
Shygetz
My favorite proselytizer line:
“Sorry. I’m allergic to Jesus.”
Krista
Shygetz – nice. I’ll have to remember that one. I’m just waiting to receive pamphlets and a lecture — many members of my bf’s family are seriously hardcore religious, and I just know that they’re frothing at the fact that we’ve been “living in sin” for over three years, with no plans for a wedding. Ridiculous, really. If we’re happy, and if we honor and respect each other and our relationship, then what business is it of theirs? Our releationship is a lot more honest and healthy than that of many married couples around here.
Shygetz
Heh. I can one-up you on that one, Krista. My wife’s family is Orthodox-to-Conservative Jewish, and I’m as goy as they come. We lived in sin for 3 years before we got married in a fairly non-religious ceremony. Luckily, I’m enough of a charmer that her family doesn’t hate me too much, although they still ask me why I don’t convert. Apparently, it’s not important that I believe in Judaism, so long as I’m Jewish. Heh.
Larry
Go here to laugh at the Fundies.
Here for the well-documented facts.
“All religious extremeists are bitter nuts growing on different branches of the same twisted tree.” Me
SeesThroughIt
Unfortunately for them, religion tends to have the exact opposite effect.
tyree
It it so hard in these posts to summarize complicated issues. I never meant to imply that our Government was christian, just that it’s people in general are and were and have the right to be.
http://www.wtv-zone.com/Mary/forsakenroots.html
We are a christian nation in the same sense that some areas of the country are Republican or Democrat.
The Treaty of Tripoli was negociated with the Islamic extremists of the day. Does anyone have a website that gives the context of the treaty? Why was the “not a Christian nation” statement put in. Was it a response to “Crusader” type statements from the Barbary Pirates?
tyree
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/julia/gorin120105.php3?printer_friendly