Entre L’Enclume Et Le Marteau

Just a bit more on the riots in France. My wife, being French, just returned from a trip and had the following observations that I thought I would pass on.

* The French have an expression, entre l’enclume et le marteau, meaning ‘between the hammer and the anvil.’ It describes people in an impossible situation, such as having no native country other than France but not being considered truly French. She was only surprised that these citizens hadn’t spoken up this way a lot sooner.
* Similar to my first impression, her view is that a French interest group doesn’t get proper treatment until it stands up and protests.
* She asked whether they were burning cars in the expensive neighborhoods, or just where they live. She thought they wouldn’t get much attention from the government if they only burned their own cars.
* If this works out like it usually does, the government will announce a decent set of initiatives to mollify the mob and implement half of them. The rest will languish until the mob rises again or until some candidate needs to buy their vote.

Following up on that last bullet point, Chirac plans to announce some sort of policy initiative. Stay tuned.






146 replies
  1. 1
    rachel says:

    Well, that’s progress from when the jacquerie would revolt and then be massacred by the nobles.

  2. 2
    Steve S says:

    What about the schools?

  3. 3
    Lines says:

    More evidence that France isn’t a true Socialist country, but more along the lines of a secular republic. Having state sponsored health care and strong Unions doesn’t make for a socialist country, its just issues that have been socialized.

    In reality, I noticed in my time in France that its just an older America, its traditions and methods entrenched in thousands of years of self-congratulatory rhetoric and the inability to actually admit to faults.

    But beyond that, I liked France. Its countryside unspoiled by urban sprawl, its quaint countryside mingled with its hidden high tech centers.

    And no matter what they do in California, they will never match the French white wines, sorry.

  4. 4
    Dean's World says:

    Paris

    There is much heat generated from the fires in Paris. And not just that from burning cars, mind you. Any student of history can look at the Parisian civil unrest and see reflections of a thousand incidents of urban rioting by an …

  5. 5
    James C. says:

    Not sure that the somewhat sanguine view contained in the post is fully reflective of all that’s going on across France. The following excerpt is a fairly good translation of somewhat more alarming views:

    “…[B]ut – and this is the crucial difference between the different generations of rioters – most of those living in the French ghettoes are Muslims and have grown up during a period of Islamic radicalisation. Many of the youths hurling petrol bombs on Parisian estates look up to a slightly older group of mosque stalwarts. These men are capable of being forces for both good and mischief; there have been examples from the past fortnight of situations calmed, but also of attackers acting under their direction, so that Muslim-owned businesses, a halal butcher’s shop and a kebab joint, for example, are spared, while a bank branch and symbols of another France are targeted.

    “Intelligence officials have already spoken of the involvement of the more sinister of such figures in the recruitment of young French Muslims to fight the American-led coalition in Iraq. Several have been killed, others are missing. The gravest fear for French ministers is that the trouble of the past 10 days has been orchestrated by Islamists bent on exploiting the grievances of impressionable youths. France’s attempts to integrate its large Muslim population have failed; in the name of a secular state in which everyone, theoretically, is equal, there is not even a dependable estimate as to the true numbers – they are widely assumed to be as high as 10 per cent, or six million people, but the official census is not allowed to distinguish between ethnic groups.

    “If Margaret Thatcher’s Britain somehow muddled through its crisis [during the 1980’s], a depressing question was springing to many French minds as 1,300 vehicles were set ablaze across the country on Saturday night alone. What can be done to end the rioting by a government seen by many as incompetent, divided and distracted by the competing presidential ambitions of its key figures, the prime minister, Dominique de Villepin, and the interior minister, Nicolas Sarkozy?

    “As the government flounders, seemingly powerless to stem the bombardments of petrol bombs and stones, a snapshot of French opinion offers striking confirmation of just how divided the country is. Even as Paris burns….”

  6. 6
    Steve S says:

    Why must you focus on the bad stuff James? Why can’t we talk about the schools and other good things happening in France?

  7. 7
    Mr Furious says:

    Chirac plans to announce some sort of policy initiative

    Cue the catcalls of “Appeasement!” from the righties…

    No doubt many in the Hannity, Rush and O’Reilly set are positively loving this whole situation.

  8. 8
    Krista says:

    I absolutely adored France when I was there. It breaks my heart to see this, but it really doesn’t surprise me, either. From what region is your wife, Tim?

  9. 9
    Lines says:

    Verifying that retirement homes can care for seniors during another heat wave is just appeasing the terroristic weather!

    Cuz all those liberal/socialist bastards just want to appease the world to stop doing things they don’t agree with. Just like that great Socialist from Germany was only appeasing the Jews!

    Ouch, it hurts to channel Stormy. I think I’ll go was my mind out with lye now.

  10. 10
    DougJ says:

    This is just the work of a few dead enders.

    Some of the leaders of these riots had secret meeting with Mohamed Otta in Prague.

  11. 11
    Mr Furious says:

    DougJ,
    The British government has learned that these French punks recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa…

  12. 12
    DougJ says:

    The rioters also have biological weapons that could be launched from mobile labs in as little as fifteen minutes.

  13. 13
    Lines says:

    Isn’t that what they meant when they said the riots were “organized”? Doesn’t all organized evil have WMD mobile labs and nuclear plants buried in a rose garden?

    What statue will they topple first?

  14. 14
    DougJ says:

    Just a thought: maybe if French publicly water-boarded a few of these guys the others would get the message about how Christianity is superior to Islam.

  15. 15
    Lines says:

    New reports are showing that the riots are due to Newsweek publishing an article stating that French Cheese wheels have been flushed down the toilets at Gitmo.

  16. 16
    DougJ says:

    Lines, actually they were caused by the news that Bill O’Reilly was using falafels in a sexual manner.

  17. 17
    Krista says:

    You guys are having fun, aren’t you? :)

    And anybody who would waste fine fromage like that…well, I’d riot too!

  18. 18
    Tim F. says:

    From what region is your wife, Tim?

    She comes from Paris, via Nancy.

  19. 19
    Lines says:

    Yes Krista, it is fun. Its a serious issue, yes. 300+ towns are now damaged or are in the midst of rioting, and here we are making fun like deranged children. Powerlessness to change a situation can do that to a person, though.

    But I think our fun also points out some of the fallacies of the past. Just to pick out a couple:

    1) The Riots in Pakistan/Afghanistan were not because Newsweek published an article about Qu’Ran’s being flushed.

    2) Iraq did not have drones that could deliver WMD’s to New York, we were blatently lied to about these “drones” to cultivate the atmosphere of fear and paranoia so a corrupt administration could accomplish its pre-911-determined goals of invading Iraq.

    The next snarks might be more about how France will drop their bread and cheese and run at the sight of a molotov cocktail or that the silence in France right now is due to the rush to buy white sheets and long dowels to surrender, if only they can find someone to surrender to.

  20. 20
    Darrell says:

    Chirac plans to announce some sort of policy initiative

    Cue the catcalls of “Appeasement!” from the righties…

    Initially PM Villepin called for “Dialogue” with the rioting criminals instead of aggressively restoring order as advocated by Sarkozy who was told by Villepin to STFU. IF the French are now calling for ‘policy initiatives’ as their solution to dealing with these thugs, how else could you characterize it other than calling it what it is, appeasement and capitulation to the criminal element. Hilarious how so many kooks on the left mock those on the right who would dare call a spade a spade.

  21. 21
    Krista says:

    She comes from Paris, via Nancy.

    It’s funny…when I visited Paris, I expected to be a bit disappointed, just because it’s so hyped. But it transcends the hype. I fell violently in love with the place right away. If you haven’t been to northern France, you should also check out Arras…a lovely, lovely little town.

    Lines: I agree, sometimes you have to laugh or you’ll cry. I think the only reason I’ve not been driven mad by this is the fact that I don’t live in the U.S. It’s still frustrating, however. And I worry at the fact that anti-West sentiments have heightened because of this war. I used to live very close to a major port here in Canada, and let me tell you, it made me nervous.

  22. 22
    Shygetz says:

    Wow, Darrell, good thing those damn pansy British were willing to appease and capitulate to the criminal element in rebellion in the colonies. Hell, they were violently breaking the law. Let’s call a spade a spade here, right?

  23. 23
    Darrell says:

    that the silence in France right now is due to the rush to buy white sheets and long dowels to surrender

    I wish the French would not live up to their stereotypes, but the only crackdown so far, is not on the criminals burning France, but instead on those like Sarkozy who are calling for police to restore order. What a shame

  24. 24
    Lines says:

    If they would just bash a few heads in now, it will prevent bashing more heads in the future, right Darrell? I mean, if you just tell these people to move on, get over it, publicly kill a few of them, then sure, they are all just going to go home and forget about what was bothering them. It worked great in Tienamin Square (sp).

  25. 25
    John Cole says:

    Keep it up, DougJ, and I am going to start calling the rioters ‘insurgents’ or ‘minutemen’ so you, Cindy Sheehan, and Michael Moore can cheer them on.

  26. 26
    Darrell says:

    British were willing to appease and capitulate to the criminal element in rebellion in the colonies

    They didn’t capitulate, they fought like hell to put down the American revolution you ignorant jackass. Only after the Brits lost a lot of blood and treasure did they finally leave. And even then, the tough bastards came back again for more, burning down our White House

  27. 27
    Shygetz says:

    I think the anti-immigrant right wing has trademarked “minutemen.” But you could call them “freedom fighters” and hearken back to the days of communist revolution.

  28. 28
    Darrell says:

    Lines Says:

    If they would just bash a few heads in now, it will prevent bashing more heads in the future, right Darrell?

    No of course now, more “dialogue” and the chanting of kumbayah while holding hands is the way to deal with criminals who set handicapped bus passengers on fire and beat to death the elderly, right idiot?

  29. 29
    Shygetz says:

    Wow, nice civility, Darrell. Yeah, the Brits fought us until they decided it wasn’t worth it anymore. Then they capitulated and appeased, even though they won pretty much every battle. They had more important things going on in Europe. John Cole’s request for decorum is all that prevents me from replying in kind (although I wish he would apply it more evenly).

  30. 30
    Darrell says:

    John Cole’s request for decorum is all that prevents me from replying in kind (although I wish he would apply it more evenly).

    Translation: “John, make Darrell stop saying mean things to me. He makes me feel soo stupid”

  31. 31
    Shygetz says:

    Darrell–You are so incorrect that it boggles the mind. You are wrong about history (Britain won almost every engagement, and capitulated and appeased the colonists after we had very minimal success; America bears much, if not most, of the blame for starting the War of 1812 in an attempt to annex British Canada, not Britain for being tough bastards coming back for more), you are wrong with your translation (if you want civility, John, then don’t just demand it from liberal commenters, but also from those right-wingers who call people an “ignorant jackass”), and you are probably wrong in your assessment that you continuing to use more oxygen is a worthwhile allocation of resources.

  32. 32
    Lines says:

    Darrell must have had an accident and broken his funny bone this weekend.

    Jeez man, lighten up. I enjoy getting you riled up, but jeez, you’re on a bit of an attack for really no reason.

  33. 33
    jg says:

    Jeez man, lighten up. I enjoy getting you riled up, but jeez, you’re on a bit of an attack for really no reason.

    And yet he can figure out the term ‘knee jerk defender of the right’.

  34. 34
    DougJ says:

    Keep it up, DougJ, and I am going to start calling the rioters ‘insurgents’ or ‘minutemen’ so you, Cindy Sheehan, and Michael Moore can cheer them on.

    You know, that would be really funny. When I start my own blog I’m going to do that.

  35. 35
    Darrell says:

    Interesting article, Why Paris is Burning

    In some areas, it is possible for an immigrant or his descendants to spend a whole life without ever encountering the need to speak French, let alone familiarize himself with any aspect of the famous French culture.

    The result is often alienation. And that, in turn, gives radical Islamists an opportunity to propagate their message of religious and cultural apartheid.

    Some are even calling for the areas where Muslims form a majority of the population to be reorganized on the basis of the “millet” system of the Ottoman Empire: Each religious community (millet) would enjoy the right to organize its social, cultural and educational life in accordance with its religious beliefs.

    In parts of France, a de facto millet system is already in place. In these areas, all women are obliged to wear the standardized Islamist “hijab” while most men grow their beards to the length prescribed by the sheiks.

    The radicals have managed to chase away French shopkeepers selling alcohol and pork products, forced “places of sin,” such as dancing halls, cinemas and theaters, to close down, and seized control of much of the local administration.

  36. 36
    DougJ says:

    The radicals have managed to chase away French shopkeepers selling alcohol and pork products, forced “places of sin,” such as dancing halls, cinemas and theaters, to close down, and seized control of much of the local administration.

    Thank God we live in a country where religious fanatics make no attempt to seize control of the administration.

  37. 37
    DougJ says:

    I have no idea why people are rioting in France. I will say this, though, and I think there’s something in this for everyone: I have a secular Iranian friend who lives in the deep south, who tells me she prefers living there to living in Paris (where she used to live) since she encounters so much less discrimination in the deep south.

  38. 38
    Darrell says:

    Tim F made a comparison between US racism and French racism which he never really explained in which he alleged that in some ways, US racism was worse. Now I’m not going to go on a research project over this at this time, I feel confident in saying that non-white middle eastern and Pakistani muslim immigrants to the US are as successful, if not more so, than native white immigrants and have lower crime rates than white americans. Same thing with non-white Asian immigrants to the US from China, Japan, Vietnam and Korea.

    Whereas in France, muslim immigrants are far less successful, and far more prone to crime

  39. 39
    Darrell says:

    *not native white immigrants, native white americans. sorry about that

    Must remember that preview is my friend

  40. 40
    DougJ says:

    Darrell, I agree with you. Everything I’ve ever read about been told about or witnessed first hand in France tells me that America is a truly a paradise of tolerance for non-white, non-Christian people relative to France. I think the United States is a funny paradox of ignorance about the rest of the world combined with a wonderful tolerance for the other people who live here. I think that racism is so deeply embedded in much of the European psyche that they can’t even contemplate erasing it. There is racism here, too, of course, but most Americans understand what racism means and that it is wrong.

    Sorry to go all rainbows and unicorns there, but I am deeply proud of the racial and cultural tolerance that exists in this country.

  41. 41
    Lines says:

    I have no idea if I should take that last post serious, Dougj. Good job! You’re back!

  42. 42
    DougJ says:

    That last post was serious

  43. 43
    Steve S says:

    DougJ – Honestly I have to agree with your last comment. My ex-girlfriend is Russian, which is probably the worst of the lot in terms of European racism. My brief time spent in England, and my dealings with French do support this notion that racism is entrenched in their culture such that they don’t see it.

    I do think one of the main differences with America is that we vocally discuss these issues in the public forum, which makes them more apparent.

  44. 44
    Steve S says:

    These people are not rioters! They are freedom fighters. They are the minutemen of the new revolution. Soon, freedom and Democracy shall spread like the fire from the loins of God across all of Europe!

    [This post was not serious.]

  45. 45
    Tim F. says:

    Tim F made a comparison between US racism and French racism which he never really explained in which he alleged that in some ways, US racism was worse.

    I meant it when I said that racism here is a completely different animal. We have basically one race that is disapproved while the rest exist on more or less equal footing, at least since anti-semitism and anti-Catholicism went out of vogue. Contrariwise in most of Europe, locals have a specific approved ‘template’ while all the rest are at a disadvantage. As I said, as long as you’re not an immigrant from Africa America presents far and away the better immigrant experience.

    I didn’t say that America’s racism problem is worse. I said that it might be. Not being black in America and not being muslim in France I’m not going to make the call one way or the other.

  46. 46
    jg says:

    You mean there’s racism in Europe too, not just in america? Wow. What a coincidence considering we’re all from europe.

  47. 47
    DougJ says:

    Tim F, Carribean-Americans — who represent the bulk of U.S. immigrants of African descent — do quite well in the United States. I’ll bet that most of them would tell you that the U.S. is more tolerant, too.

    Make no mistake: there is more racism (much of it unintentional) aimed at African-Americans than most white Americans are willing to admit. But I still think things are worse in Europe. Try talking to an Italian — even an educated Italian — about Ethiopians and I think you’ll see what I mean.

  48. 48
    Darrell says:

    As I said, as long as you’re not an immigrant from Africa America presents far and away the better immigrant experience.

    I believe you are mistaken there Tim. Immigrants to the US from Africa seem to do well here. It’s the black natives who are having the problems. I know that black immigrants to the US from the West Indies (Jamaica, trinidad/tobago, etc) earn more than native white americans

  49. 49
    Darrell says:

    Oops, DougJ beat me to it. Btw, have you noticed that Canadians don’t refer to their black citizens as ‘African Canadians’? You never hear about African Panamanians, African Dominicans, or African British either.. they are simply referred to as black.

  50. 50
    Tim F. says:

    Doug and Darrell,

    You both may be perfectly right. I have anecdotes regarding African immigration to America and Europe, but being anecdotes they make thin gruel for fleshing out an argument. That is why my only point was that racism does exist in America, but in a different form that has dramatic consequences for the immigrant experience. I don’t think that anything you’ve said disagrees with that.

  51. 51
    Shygetz says:

    We called ’em everything under the sun, including black, African-American, and other more unsavory things through our history and they have remained underpriveleged. What’s the point?

  52. 52
    Darrell says:

    What’s the point?

    The point is, referring to black Americans as ‘African americans’, while not doing the same for any other ethnic or national group to any significant extent (German Americans are typically referred to as simply americans) separates blacks from other americans imo. Other nations such as Canada don’t do it.. why don’t we simply refer to them as Americans without the hyphenated bullshit

  53. 53
    aop says:

    The point is, referring to black Americans as ‘African americans’, while not doing the same for any other ethnic or national group to any significant extent (German Americans are typically referred to as simply americans) separates blacks from other americans imo.

    Agree. African-American is such a stupid PC term. All the black people I know, if they refer to their race, just call themselves black and tend to think that white folks who use “African American” are being overly cautious to a kind of racist extent.

    In the immortal words of Ice Cube, “Cracker, you gotta get the shit right, I’m black, blacker than a trillion midnights.”

  54. 54
    DougJ says:

    I’ve also noticed that Canadians don’t refer to global warming as “climate change” to the estate tax as “the death tax” or prattle on endlessly about the “war on terror” and “intelligent design”. Nor are the phrases “womb baby”, “stay the course”, or “911 changed everthing” in vouge. Nor are bills that involve destroying the environment given names such as “the clean skies bill” or the “healthy forest initiative”.

  55. 55
    Darrell says:

    DougJ, can you name even one other nation which refers to their black citizens as African-insert country name here?

  56. 56
    DougJ says:

    I see your point Darrell, but I have friends who are Irish and Italian and live in the United States who use the words Irish-American and Italian-American to distinguish people who have been here for a few generations from those who just got here (like themselves).

    I have read that most black people now prefer the term black to the term African-American. I’m just saying that in a country of immigrants from all over the world the hyphenated American thing makes some degree of sense.

  57. 57
    John S. says:

    You never hear about African Panamanians, African Dominicans, or African British either.. they are simply referred to as black.

    Actually, Darrell, in many other countries with appreciable negroid (the scientific term) populations, they are generally NOT referred to as “blacks”.

    In Canada, “blacks” are Canadians. In England, “blacks” are British. I make no conjecture as to why “blacks” in America want to have a seperate cultural identity, but the fact is that such distinctions do not really exist elsewhere. It is purely an American thing.

  58. 58
    John S. says:

    I’ve also noticed that Canadians don’t refer to global warming as “climate change” to the estate tax as “the death tax” or prattle on endlessly about the “war on terror” and “intelligent design”.

    That’s because the Republican wordsmiths do not operate in Canada. Their blight on the semantical landscape is purely an American phenomenon. Most other countries are content to call a thing that which it is.

  59. 59
    Dave Ruddell says:

    I think the reason we don’t use the term ‘African Canadian’ is that it just doesn’t have the assonance and rhyme of ‘African American’. I have heard the term used, but only very rarely. You’ll sometimes hear ‘Caribbean Canadian’, with it’s nice alliteration, but there’s a decent chance that you’ll be referring to somebody whose ancestry is from South Asia, not Africa.

  60. 60
    aop says:

    I make no conjecture as to why “blacks” in America want to have a seperate cultural identity, but the fact is that such distinctions do not really exist elsewhere. It is purely an American thing.

    A) They do exist elsewhere, just not to the extent they do in America, maybe because…

    B) Other countries didn’t import their black people on slave ships. Not saying that American racial identity politics are necessarily a good thing, just that it’s understandable why they exist.

  61. 61
    Krista says:

    Yeah, there are the odd few who use the term “African-Canadian”, but the hyphenated terms just really never caught on here. Not to say that people here are not extremely proud of respective cultures, of course.

    And as far as Republican talking points go, there are very few people here who believe those, save for a select few, mainly in Alberta (i.e. Texas North). That’s why Stephen Harper (the leader of the Conservative party in Canada) will never, ever get elected…he wanted us to join the war in Iraq, and people won’t forget that. The Liberal party might be a bunch of corrupt bastards, but at least they didn’t want to get a bunch of our young people killed in the quest to plant Canada’s lips firmly up America’s asshole.

  62. 62
    John S. says:

    B) Other countries didn’t import their black people on slave ships.

    Sure they did. Chances are that where older negroid populations exist outside of Africa, those people came there as slaves (or indentured servants which wasn’t terribly different). England, France, the Netherlands and many other countries all engaged in a thriving slave trade.

    The difference is that America held onto its slavery ways longer than our European counterparts. England moved to banish slavery starting in 1807 with the Abolition of the Slave Trade bill, and firmed things up in 1833 with the Slavery Abolition Act in 1833. This act gave all slaves in the British Empire their freedom, and needless to say none of the colonies fought for the right to keep them – unlike here.

  63. 63
    aop says:

    You’re right, I know slavery is not unique to America. Just that we’re the most modern, most systematic, and most egregious example of it. I think that’s why black identity stuff is comparatively big here.

    I mean, mind-blowingly, the Voting Rights Act only took place forty years ago.

  64. 64
    Darrell says:

    Just that we’re the most modern, most systematic, and most egregious example of it.

    Not even close. Buy a clue and read some history why don’t you. The French and arabs were far more brutal slavelords than the Americans or british. Arabs brought in more black Africans than did the Europeans, yet as anyone who travels to the region can see, their black ancestors didn’t survive so well

  65. 65
    Darrell says:

    The difference is that America held onto its slavery ways longer than our European counterparts. England moved to banish slavery starting in 1807 with the Abolition of the Slave Trade bill, and firmed things up in 1833 with the Slavery Abolition Act in 1833

    Yet the Brits continued with slavery in India after 1833, didn’t they? Abolition in the US took place in what, 1865, so contrary to your assertion, there’s not much of a time difference between the US and England to speak of

  66. 66
    Darrell says:

    French slave history was also significantly more extensive and brutal than America’s. These details are worth noting:

    Slaver voyages: France, 4,200; British North America/United States, 1,500.

    Slaves transported: France 1,250,000, British North America/United States, 300,000.

    Slaves delivered to: French West Indies: 1,600,000, British North America/United States, 500,000.*

    and this:

    In the history of the Atlantic slave trade, the French turned four times as many Africans into slaves as the Americans did, they used them far more brutally, and French slavers not only got a head-start on Americans, they continued the slave trade — legally — until 1830, long after the rest of Europe had given it up.

    Looks like old habits die hard with the Frenchies:

    STRASBOURG, July 26 (AFP) – The European Court of Human Rights condemned France Tuesday for being too lenient in a case of domestic slavery involving a young Togolese woman who worked without pay for four years.

    The court condemned France under article 4 of the European Convention on Human Rights which prohibits “slavery or servitude” and said it regretted that these two specific crimes “as such were not punishable under French criminal law”.

    Ok, last bit was somewhat of a cheap shot

  67. 67
    scs says:

    I heard that France is considering ‘affirmative action’ now to try to integrate minorities into jobs. This is why I agree with affirmative action, because without a law requiring people to do differently, people will naturally hire the people who look like them and know people they know. And the net result is you will end up with problems like this.

  68. 68
    Darrell says:

    This is why I agree with affirmative action, because without a law requiring people to do differently, people will naturally hire the people who look like them and know people they know.

    That’s true only when there is extreme ingrained prejudice systematically practiced by a society. Otherwise, employers will “naturally hire” those who will make him the most money, not necessarily ones who look like him

  69. 69
    scs says:

    but at least they didn’t want to get a bunch of our young people killed in the quest to plant Canada’s lips firmly up America’s asshole.

    Yes they are perfectly content to let Americans die for them to try to enact change in the world.

  70. 70
    Darrell says:

    What’s more, even after the Europeans “officially” gave up slavery, they maintained slave-like colonies in Africa well into the 1900’s which operated like de facto plantations, raping countries of their resources and exploiting the people at gunpoint. Even today, France maintains 10,000+ of her troops in ‘former’ African colonies

  71. 71
    scs says:

    extreme ingrained prejudice systematically practiced by a society.

    Prejudice, and I think more like cultural prejudice than actual racial prejudice, is unfortunately the natural state of man. To put it more benignly, it’s a cultural comfort zone that most people prefer. And as to getting the best people for the job, most jobs are not brain surgery, and the social factor is as, or more important to many people doing the hiring.

  72. 72
    John S. says:

    Abolition in the US took place in what, 1865, so contrary to your assertion, there’s not much of a time difference between the US and England

    Not really. The British had an accepted and well laid plan for systematically ending slavery throughout the empire, and it went largely unchallenged:

    In May 1833 Lord Stanley presented a plan to Parliament which finally passed into law on August 29. In essence, the new legislation called for the gradual abolition of slavery. Everyone over the age of six on August 1, 1834, when the law went into effect, was required to serve an apprenticeship of four years in the case of domestics and six years in the case of field hands (apprenticeship was later abolished by Parliament in 1838). By way of compensation the West Indian planters received £20 million.

    Source

    Whereas the United States abolishment of slavery in 1865 was heavily contested – even following the Civil War – and efforts to uphold and expand the law with the Fifteenth Amendment in 1870 was not exactly embraced by all the states (Kentucky was the last to ratify in 1976). The reluctance to view previous slaves as regular citizens accounts for many struggles in recent American history as well as the reason why the civil rights movement occurred in the 1960s.

    By comparison, no such event occurred in England anytime in the recent past. Therefore, contrary to your usually distorted views of history, it is clear that there is a major difference between the United States and England.

  73. 73
    Darrell says:

    most jobs are not brain surgery, and the social factor is as, or more important to many people doing the hiring.

    Most of the better jobs involve quite a bit of skill and experience. Again, employers will hire those whom they believe will make them the most money. Even in jobs which are not ‘brain surgery’, employers value workers of any race who show up on time, work hard, and take initiative

  74. 74
    Darrell says:

    John S, you fail to address the British slavery that continued in India after 1833

  75. 75
    John S. says:

    What’s more, even after the Europeans “officially” gave up slavery, they maintained slave-like colonies in Africa well into the 1900’s which operated like de facto plantations, raping countries of their resources and exploiting the people at gunpoint. Even today, France maintains 10,000+ of her troops in ‘former’ African colonies

    Wow, Darrell, that’s a great DougJ impression. Too bad you aren’t being facetious. Take a good hard look at American military installations in former colonies and areas that we have liberated.

    And of course, it would be nice if you could source some of your more ludicrous claims.

  76. 76
    scs says:

    The British had an accepted and well laid plan for systematically ending slavery throughout the empire

    Yes Britain didn’t need the slaves, they had plenty of “servants” already to slave away for their “nobility”. Hey, I saw ‘Upstairs, Downstairs’ on PBS.

  77. 77
    John S. says:

    John S, you fail to address the British slavery that continued in India after 1833

    Darrell, you failed to cite any documented cases of actual slavery in the British empire beyond 1838.

  78. 78
    John S. says:

    Yes Britain didn’t need the slaves, they had plenty of “servants” already to slave away for their “nobility”.

    America didn’t need the slaves, either. We have plenty of servants laborers ready to slave away for their nobility rich.

  79. 79
    Darrell says:

    John S also fails to address the slavery-like brutality of colonial European powers, a colonial history which America, herself a colony, does not share:

    Dramatic evidence has been unearthed of such systematic British brutality in the former colony of Kenya that it may require the rewriting of imperial history

    ..Mr Gavaghan is not implicated in the other widespread allegations of torture, rape and murder detailed in the programme. Witnesses came forward to recount tortures and murders committed throughout the eight-year emergency involving other white officials and local soldiers under British command. One man says he was castrated and blinded for defying his captors. A woman recalls how her two-year-old child was whipped to death by a white police officer. Women claim that thousands of civilians – mainly women and children – died of beatings, starvation and disease.

    Source. And this took place through the 1950’s, not that long ago

  80. 80
    Darrell says:

    Take a good hard look at American military installations in former colonies and areas that we have liberated.

    Just to demonstrate once and for all that John S is truly shit for brains stupid, name for us John, the former “colonies” where we have troops stationed. Our former “colony” of South Korea perhaps? Or our “colony” in Japan? Germany?

  81. 81
    scs says:

    We have plenty of laborers ready to slave away for their nobility rich.

    I don’t think you can compare a laborer with a servant. A servant class is a whole class of people devoted to serving their master class. What does that sound like to you? Maybe a more benevolent form of slavery.

  82. 82
    scs says:

    By the way, I read somewhere that Americans were richer per cpaita than their European counterparts, from very early on in the establishment of the country. Hence a laborer here probably had more opportunity to find other jobs, start his own life, move to other places, than a servant did in the Old World.

  83. 83
    Darrell says:

    Google the Massacre at Setif to get a sense of French colonial brutality. Algerian soldiers returning home after WWII having fought side by side with the allies, returned to Algeria to discover that that their French colonial masters had butchered between 20,000 and 45,000 civilians, including many women and children. To maintain their jackboot on the dark skinned Algerian subjects, the French proceeded to kill a MILLION of them. And that went on through the early 1960’s. Not that long ago. But Europeans outlawed slavery in the 1800’s, right?

  84. 84
    John S. says:

    Just to demonstrate once and for all that John S is truly shit for brains stupid, name for us John, the former “colonies” where we have troops stationed.

    Try the Phillippines, dickhead.

  85. 85
    John S. says:

    John S also fails to address the slavery-like brutality of colonial European powers

    Because we were specifically discussing SLAVERY, not slavery-like brutality. But way to move those goal posts and expand the argument in order to peddle your points.

  86. 86
    Darrell says:

    Try the Phillippines, dickhead

    We withdrew our military bases in the Phillipines.. dickhead. God you are stupid. What’s more, the only reason we established a military base there to begin with, was a result of the extreme blood sacrifice the US made in liberating the Phillipines from Japan.

  87. 87
    Darrell says:

    Because we were specifically discussing SLAVERY, not slavery-like brutality. But way to move those goal posts and expand the argument in order to peddle your points.

    No goal post moving needed. The Europeans simply declared the official end of slavery while practicing it in their colonies. Not only were they practicing slavery, they were butchering those who resisted them.

  88. 88
    John S. says:

    Darrell-

    You are truly a lying scumbag. You know damn well that the presence of military bases CURRENTLY doesn’t mean that we didn’t have them at all.

    The Subic Naval Base was a huge facility, and was only handed over to the Phillippines in 1992.

  89. 89
    scs says:

    A few facts on the Phillipines:

    The Philippine Islands became a Spanish colony during the 16th century; they were ceded to the US in 1898 following the Spanish-American War. The islands attained their independence in 1946 after Japanese occupation in World War II.

  90. 90
    John S. says:

    The Europeans simply declared the official end of slavery while practicing it in their colonies. Not only were they practicing slavery, they were butchering those who resisted them.

    And of course when America declared an end to slavery, everything came up roses for black people, right?

  91. 91
    John S. says:

    scs-

    And that proves me wrong how? The Phillippines WASN’T an American colony? We DIDN’T have a base there while it was? And for decades after it wasn’t?

  92. 92
    scs says:

    everything came up roses for black people, right?

    I’m guessing probably about as well as it did in Europe after they ended their slavery.

  93. 93
    scs says:

    And that proves me wrong how?

    No wrong proving intended. Just stating facts to help enlighten.

  94. 94
    John S. says:

    No wrong proving intended. Just stating facts to help enlighten.

    Well, thanks for the facts. At least you restrained yourself in calling me shit for brains stupid simply because you may disagree with me.

  95. 95
    scs says:

    Yes I try not to insult, (unless I am insulted first of course).

  96. 96
    Darrell says:

    John S, in response to my question,

    name for us John, the former “colonies” where we have troops stationed.

    The word ‘have’ is present tense, and in response to former colonies where we HAVE bases, you replied “Phillipines dickhead”. Well shit for brains, we’ve withdrawn from the Phillipines, and our military bases were there not as a result of colonial domination, but as a result of the extreme blood sacrifices made by the US in freeing the Phillipines from Japan

  97. 97
    Darrell says:

    And of course when America declared an end to slavery, everything came up roses for black people, right?

    And of course when European nations declared an end to slavery, everything came up roses for black people there too, right?

  98. 98
    John S. says:

    scs-

    On another matter (since you seem capable of civility), do you really see a major functional distinction between a laborer and a servant? I mean, pursuant to your comment:

    I don’t think you can compare a laborer with a servant. A servant class is a whole class of people devoted to serving their master class.

    Laborers are an entire class devoted to serving the wealthy class. I can safely say that upward mobility in Europe pales in comparison to the United States, but I fear that the Horatio Algers of this country are becoming fewer and farther between thanks to policies that have clearly stunted our upward mobility in favor of preserving a smaller upper class.

  99. 99
    Darrell says:

    At least you restrained yourself in calling me shit for brains stupid simply because you may disagree with me.

    I called you shit for brains stupid, because you aggressively made the idiotic assertion

    Take a good hard look at American military installations in former colonies and areas that we have liberated.

    It wasn’t a disagreement’, he was in factual ignorant error. Also John, you use the words “colonies”. That’s plural. Where are our other former colonies where we have troops stationed? Our ‘former colony’ of Germany perhaps?

  100. 100
    John S. says:

    Darrell-

    I choose not to further discuss anything with you. You are incapable of civility or carrying on a discussion where you don’t feel it necessary to bludgeon people with your version of what is right.

    When you learn how to act like a human being, get back to me.

  101. 101
    Darrell says:

    Darrell-

    I choose not to further discuss anything with you. You are incapable of civility or carrying on a discussion where you don’t feel it necessary to bludgeon people with your version of what is right.

    Translation: “Darrell schooled me and made me look like an idiot. I feel stupid when debating him, especially when he exposes my ‘facts’ as bullshit. I don’t want to feel stupid anymore, so I won’t debate him”

  102. 102
    scs says:

    do you really see a major functional distinction between a laborer and a servant?

    Well I suppose it depends on which laborer and which servant, and it depends on degree. But yes I do see a difference, at least pyschologically, in the confines of servitude as compared to labor. But with that, I must go do errands.

  103. 103
    John S. says:

    Oh, but here’s some parting gifts for you…

    Troops recently stationed in the Phillippines

    Germany was an area we “LIBERATED” as you know from the blockquote you keep posting (as was Japan), so your mocking them being colonies is pure nonsense.

    Other military installations in “America’s Empire” (some past, some present)

  104. 104
    John S. says:

    Translation: “Darrell schooled me and made me look like an idiot. I feel stupid when debating him, especially when he exposes my ‘facts’ as bullshit. I don’t want to feel stupid anymore, so I won’t debate him”

    LOL. I own you kooks. You lie awake at night terrified of my intellectual superiority, which is why you have to resort to name-calling when I smite you with my intellectual prowess.

    Sleep well tonight, kook. I will be haunting your dreams.

  105. 105
    scs says:

    One more thing. In defense of Darrell, you all pick on him a lot, and then act surprised when he hits backs. Let’s retrace the steps here:

    Wow, Darrell, that’s a great DougJ impression. Too bad you aren’t being facetious. … And of course, it would be nice if you could source some of your more ludicrous claims.

    To which Darrell replied:

    Just to demonstrate once and for all that John S is truly shit for brains stupid,

    So although Darrell replied in a rude manner, John S. started with very patronizing language to begin with. So the rudeness is spread around, and is not just Darrell’s fault in my opinion. Let’s all try to be be nice like John C said.

  106. 106
    Darrell says:

    Nice credible link there John from the World Socialist Web Site. It really exposes you for how dishonest you truly are. At the request of the Phillipine govt., US sends special troops to help train the Phillipine military on fighting terrorism there. Yeah, we’re really putting those Filipinos under the US jackboot

    Your attempt to draw equivalency between US overseas bases and the extreme brutality of European colonialism is dishonest as hell.

  107. 107
    John S. says:

    Let’s all try to be be nice like John C said.

    Sure. Being patronizing is tantamount to calling someone shit for brains (to which I called him a dickhead and should not have resorted to his level).

    Maybe in your world.

  108. 108
    John S. says:

    Your attempt to draw equivalency between US overseas bases and the extreme brutality of European colonialism is dishonest as hell.

    Your attempt to draw superiority of US overseas bases over the “extreme brutality” of European colonialism is dishonest as hell.

  109. 109
    John S. says:

    Nice credible link there John from the World Socialist Web Site. It really exposes you for how dishonest you truly are.

    Does the same apply when YOU link to sites like WorldNet Daily?

    I’ll have to remember your arbitrary rules and be sure to apply them to YOU.

  110. 110
    Darrell says:

    Your attempt to draw superiority of US overseas bases over the “extreme brutality” of European colonialism is dishonest as hell

    US bases in Phillipines did not result in 1 million dead Filipinos as were 1 million Algerians killed by French colonial masters. That doesn’t count the countless murdered by French, Belgian, and British in other african colonies. Since you’re alleging equivalency here, where are the millions butchered in the Phillipines

  111. 111
    John S. says:

    where are the millions butchered in the Phillipines

    Thaks for the easy setup. Ever hear of the Philippine-American War, also known as the Philippine Insurrection? Obviously not:

    Philippine military deaths are estimated at 20,000 (16 thousand actually counted) while civilian deaths numbered in 250,000 to 1,000,000 Filipinos.

    U.S. attacks into the countryside often included scorched earth campaigns where entire villages were burned and destroyed, torture (water cure) and the concentration of civilians into “protected zones”. Many of these civilian casualties resulted from disease and famine.

    Source

    Any other questions?

  112. 112
    Darrell says:

    I stand partially corrected on the Phillipines, as between 1/4 million and One million civilians were killed, although the deaths there do not begin to compare with the scope of European brutality in their colonies. Three important distinctions:

    1. At that time, european colonial powers were doing even worse in colonies of africa and SE Asia, as they had a far longer history of colonialization with many, many times more countries being colonialized. To pick just ONE example, the French in Algeria, there were 3 million Algerians when France invaded in 1830, but 20 years afterward, as a result of French brutality the Algerian population had fallen to 2 million, and by 1867-68, it had fallen another 600,000. Source. That’s just one example. There are many others. Again, no equivalency. Not even close, and it’s dishonest as hell for you to assert otherwise. You really are a fucking idiot by continuing your dishonest attempts to draw equivalency when none exists. Not a disagreement of opinion here. You are lying about factual realities

    2. Unlike the French, Belgians, British, etc., the US made up for those atrocities in WWII in the blood sacrifice paid by US soldiers in liberating the Phillipines in WWII from the far more brutal Japanese

    3. America’s violent battles in the Phillipines ended by 1914. French, Belgian, and Brit colonial atrocities continued through the 1950’s and 1960’s, with the French still asserting their colonial jackboots in ‘former’ colonies today. The French went so far as to arm and protected Hutu butchers in the Rwanda genocide of the mid 1990’s.

  113. 113
    Steve S says:

    At that time, european colonial powers were doing even worse in colonies of africa and SE Asia, as they had a far longer history of colonialization with many, many times more countries being colonialized

    My God! What is it with conservative moonbats and there constant invoking of the “We aren’t as bad as Hitler” defense. Good jesus man, get a fucking moral backbone already.

  114. 114
    Darrell says:

    My God! What is it with conservative moonbats and there constant invoking of the “We aren’t as bad as Hitler” defense. Good jesus man, get a fucking moral backbone already

    I’m not excusing the atrocities, and I do refer to them as atrocities, but US actions were not even remotely equivalent in the same galaxy as Europe’s history of mass scale colonial murder and oppression. It all started with John S making the absurd assertion that the US

    was the most modern, most systematic, and most egregious example of it

    “It” being slavery. US being the ‘worst’, when in fact arabs and the French were far worse. Again, we are talking scope of brutality, not excusing it

  115. 115
    John S. says:

    Shorter Darrell: America is exonerated of any atrocities or wrongdoings we have ever committed because of the “blood sacrifice” we made in WWII.

    Your moral relativism seemingly knows no bounds.

  116. 116
    Darrell says:

    My God! What is it with conservative moonbats and there constant invoking of the “We aren’t as bad as Hitler

    The problem with leftist shitbags, is that they excuse and minimize the FAR WORSE atrocities of others, while lying and exaggerating to call down the harshest possible judgement on America. Doubt me? Re-read this thread. And they wonder why their patriotism might be challenged.

  117. 117
    John S. says:

    Funny, the blockquote Darrell cited that “started it all”:

    was the most modern, most systematic, and most egregious example of it

    Didn’t come from me. It came from aop, which prompts the question: Does Darrell’s lying and dishonesty know no bounds?

  118. 118
    Darrell says:

    Apologies for attributing it to you. You were defending that assertion though, and lying to do it. I can admit when I’m wrong. Can you? Because you have been dead wrong on a number of your assertions on this thread

  119. 119
    John S. says:

    The problem with leftist shitbags, is that they excuse and minimize the FAR WORSE atrocities of others, while lying and exaggerating to call down the harshest possible judgement on America. Doubt me? Re-read this thread. And they wonder why their patriotism might be challenged.

    The problem with Darrell, is that he excuses and minimizes the actions of the US relative to others, while lying and exaggerating the “FAR WORSE” atrocities of others to call down the harshest possible judgement of everyone else. Doubt me? Re-read this thread. (Hint: Check how many times he uses WWII as an excuse for America)

    The bottom line is that every damn nation on Earth has done some mighty fucked up things. Pretending that America has always walked the primrose path of goodness undermines the standard to which we would like to elevate the rest of the world to, and makes folks like Darrell look patriotic at the expense of reality – also know as jingoism.

  120. 120
    John S. says:

    Of course I can admit when I’m wrong. I’m a human being and I make mistakes. The problem with trying to engage in a conversation with you is:

    1. You constantly seek to lump people together and write us all off as “lefties”, which causes you to attribute (falsely) statements and ideas to people that aren’t responsible for them because you cannot seperate the individual from the group you have created in your mind.

    2. You immediately jump to namecalling as a FIRST resort when someone challenges you or disagrees with your version of reality. I apologize for calling you a dickhead, but this was of course after you called me ‘shit for brains’ (and persisted in doing so).

    3. You aren’t really interested in an exchange of ideas. You want to get up on your soapbox and browbeat everyone with your “intellectual superiority”. That is not how discussions work. Both people have to take turns listening and acknowledging each others ideas. You seem incapable of such action.

  121. 121
    Darrell says:

    Pretending that America has always walked the primrose path of goodness

    I have never asserted that. You lie when you accuse me of it. America does in fact have a better history on slavery and racism than Europe because A) They, France in particular, has a longer and more brutal history of slavery than the US and B) European history of colonialism, which is racist, is far longer, far worse, in far many more countries.

    Doesn’t mean the US has clean hands. But they are a helluva lot cleaner than Europe’s

  122. 122
    Darrell says:

    I apologize for calling you a dickhead, but this was of course after you called me ‘shit for brains’

    read what scs said about it. You started it. I responded

    You aren’t really interested in an exchange of ideas.

    I am, but you willfully overlook the mountain of facts which contradict your assertions.. and that’s very dishonest of you

  123. 123
    Ahah says:

    Seen from France

    They are mostly burning their neighbours’ cars.

    The good thing so far is that police hasn’t killed a single rioter so far. I wouldn’t dare imagine what would happen in the US under similar circumstances.

    Darell, in regard to your rants on European colonialism and slavery, I’m sorry to tell you you know diddlysquat on those matters. Zilch. Nada. Go back to bed.

  124. 124
    Krista says:

    Yes they are perfectly content to let Americans die for them to try to enact change in the world.

    scs – Here’s a link for you. http://www.dfait-maeci.gc.ca/p.....ons-en.asp

    Strangely enough, Canada doesn’t fight wars that it doesn’t believe in. Imagine that. This Friday is Remembrance Day up here, and I can imagine that those of us who lost family members in WWI, WWII, the Korean War, or the first Gulf War might not be particularly impressed at your assertion that we let Americans die for us in order to enact change.

  125. 125
    Darrell says:

    Darell, in regard to your rants on European colonialism and slavery, I’m sorry to tell you you know diddlysquat on those matters. Zilch. Nada. Go back to bed.

    Tell me where I’m wrong. I cited the numbers. You can’t, because you’re a half-wit, and therefore limited to personal attacks without substance.

  126. 126
    Darrell says:

    The good thing so far is that police hasn’t killed a single rioter so far.

    That’s because the French prefer “dialogue” instead of cracking down on the rioting vermin who set handicapped women on fire and beat to death the elderly while burning France. How proud you must be of France’s “restraint”

  127. 127
    John S. says:

    You started it.

    I pushed you with my stinging patronization, so you and scs decided it was enough provocation for you to jump right into calling me ‘shit for brains’?

    LOL

  128. 128
    Tulkinghorn says:

    Tell me where I’m wrong. I cited the numbers. You can’t, because you’re a half-wit, and therefore limited to personal attacks without substance.

    Darrell, you are an annoying right-wing nutjob, but you are right on the essentials. However, there is not much point in comparing numbers (as in who is worse, Stalin or Hitler?) or comparative brutality (contrast being ‘sent down the river’ to being in Leopold’s Congo to having millions go through the Arab castration camps).

    Those of us on the left, with a general disgust for the excesses of capitalism being something we think about on a regular basis, are particularly disgusted with the most dehumanizing expression of raw capitalist power in American history. As for Leopold, it is awful, almost too bad to comprehend, but is not too tied up in my daily life and does come to mind too often. As for the systematic castration and rape exercised by the Arabs on entire African (and other) populations, most people on the left or right just are not informed enough on the issue to hold an opinion.

  129. 129
    Darrell says:

    Tulkinghorn, you are a deranged leftist whackjob, but you seem to know what you’re talking about on this subject.

  130. 130
    John S. says:

    Your people, sir, is nothing but a great beast.

  131. 131
    scs says:

    Hey maybe those French rioters are on to something. Now that they burned so many cars, there will be presumably less cars in France. Less cars mean less greenhouse gasses and less foreign dependence on oil. Less greenhouse gasses means a better environment. I think the rioters are really just concerned about global warming!

  132. 132
    scs says:

    Canada doesn’t fight wars that it doesn’t believe in

    Krista, that was before you all became infiltrated with Euro-Style Leftism, which we see now works so well with minorities in France. So fine, we will attempt to spread Democracy on our own (and I know lefties are going to hate that statement).

  133. 133
    John S. says:

    So fine, we will attempt to spread Democracy on our own (and I know lefties are going to hate that statement).

    Which part would somoeone take offense to? The cliché where you relate democracy to some sort of a name brand jelly that one smears across toast? Or, is it the part where you assume that an entire segment of society would take umbrage with your erroneous statements merely because they ascribe to particular political notions antithetical to your own?

  134. 134
    scs says:

    I’d say the second one if I had to choose, sans the ‘erroneous’.

  135. 135
    John S. says:

    Well, I found both your insinuations to be erroneous. Erroneous to surmise that democracy must somehow be ‘spread’ by ‘real Americans’ who haven’t been “infiltrated with Euro-Style Leftism”, and erroneous to presume that only people to the left of political center would take issue with the aforementioned error as well as with the hasty generalization. But with that, I must go do some things.

  136. 136
    Steve S says:

    The problem with leftist shitbags, is that they excuse and minimize the FAR WORSE atrocities of others, while lying and exaggerating to call down the harshest possible judgement on America.

    Show me exactly where I said that?

    And please, you may use my post at 1:48pm as a starting reference, if you would like.

  137. 137
    Darrell says:

    Show me exactly where I said that?

    I’ll show you exactly where you said it, and it wasn’t in you 1:48pm comment you dishonest prick:

    My God! What is it with conservative moonbats and there constant invoking of the “We aren’t as bad as Hitler” defense. Good jesus man, get a fucking moral backbone already.

    In the context of a debate in which it was alleged that

    1. “Other countries didn’t import their black people on slave ships” (yes, the left really is that stupid)

    2. “You’re right, I know slavery is not unique to America. Just that we’re the most modern, most systematic, and most
    egregious example of it.”

    As well as the fact that it was contested (moving goalposts and all) that European colonialism was ‘racist’.. in this context you allege that conservative “moonbats”(your adjective) were invoking the “we’re not as bad as Hitler defense”.

    No you dishonest sack of shit, in the context of discussion on scope and amount of historical racism between the US and Europe, it’s not even a close race, not even in the same ballpark.. by any honest standard. Not trying to excuse America’s historical wrongs, just pointing out factual realities. You’re just too stupid and ignorant to know better. It comes down to that. Ever wondered why so many of the idiots seem to be concentrated on the left?

  138. 138

    Dawn Patrol

    Welcome to the Dawn Patrol, our daily roundup of information on the War on Terror and other topics – from the MilBlogs, other blogs, and the mainstream media. If you’re a blogger, you can join the conversation. If you link…

  139. 139
    John S. says:

    1. “Other countries didn’t import their black people on slave ships” (yes, the left really is that stupid)

    To which I responded:

    Sure they did. Chances are that where older negroid populations exist outside of Africa, those people came there as slaves (or indentured servants which wasn’t terribly different).

    So seeing as how I am on “the left”, I guess this leaves your vapid generalization hollow and flat. It’s dishonest, though I do not feel it necessary to call you a dishonest prick.

    Nor do I feel compelled to call you a “dishonest sack of shit” on the grounds that you are “too stupid and ignorant to know better”. And the merit of your “argument” is helped little by wondering “why so many of the idiots seem to be concentrated on the left”. Your false generalites and namecalling completely undermine any point you are attempting to make.

    It seems that in your world when you are pushed a little, the natural response isn’t to push back, but rather, to put a bullet in the skull of the one who jostled you. I think this mentality explains alot about why you seem to think the way do.

  140. 140

    […] Entre L’Enclume Et Le Marteau […]

  141. 141
    Krista says:

    Krista, that was before you all became infiltrated with Euro-Style Leftism, which we see now works so well with minorities in France. So fine, we will attempt to spread Democracy on our own (and I know lefties are going to hate that statement).

    Okay. You go ahead and try to spread idealogy by means of warfare. It worked a treat during the Crusades.

  142. 142
    The Cavalry says:

    At the risk of painting with too broad a brush, this seems like a rising tide of Islamofascism to me. Let’s hope the French have the guts to put it down. Something tells me they won’t.

  143. 143
    John S. says:

    At the risk of painting with too broad a brush, this seems like a rising tide of Islamofascism to me.

    You’re absolutely correct. You risked painting with too broad a brush, and succeeded in doing so.

  144. 144
    scs says:

    It worked a treat during the Crusades.

    Hey we saved Spain.

  145. 145

    […] The simple answer to the first question is that not only did the Dutch editors know full well what they were stepping in, that was more or less the point. For reasons that are at least partially their own fault (see here and here) many European countries have become increasingly burdened with a breed of fundamentalist Islam that, like most extreme fundamentalism, sets out to impose its particular rules and taboos on everybody (that, by the way, is the basis for John’s American Taliban comment – the subset of fundamentalists who want to impose their mores on others involuntarily, by violence if necessary. The relative degree of violence does not change the larger point). Radical fundamentalism inevitably runs up against a western tradition in which nobody and nothing is considered immune scrutiny and humor, as experienced by Salman Rushdie, Theo Van Gogh and countless others who have recieved beatings and death threats over the last ten years. […]

  146. 146

    DE L’ENCLUME A LA PLUME

    Autrefois j’arpentais l’Avenue des Champs-Elysées entre février et avril, ma carriole pleine d’enclumes, en quête d’hypothétiques clients. J’hélais avec hauteur et courtoisie les passants, l’air excessivement guindé. Dépité de ne jamais rien vendre, j’attrapais parfois un touriste japonais ou allemand par le bras en lui montrant ma cargaison avec un regard complice plein de concupiscence. Rien n’y faisait. Mes enclumes n’intéressaient personne. Je changeais de quartier. Sous la Tour Eiffel je faisais du zèle auprès des groupes de visiteurs surpris. En vain. Alors il m’arrivait de pousser jusqu’à la cathédrale Notre-Dame où les touristes étaient plus disposés, pensais-je, à m’acheter un ou deux souvenirs. On me prenait en photo, beaucoup de gens étonnés ou amusés m’interrogeaient sur mon commerce. Et même il arrivait que l’on me chassât du parvis. Mais jamais on ne m’achetait d’enclumes.

    Quatre saisons durant j’ai exercé ce métier ingrat, toujours entre février et avril, les seuls mois où je pouvais espérer gagner mon pain en vendant aux étrangers ces babioles. En quatre saisons de persévérance, je n’ai pas vendu une seule enclume. Las de ce métier de fou, je me suis fait rentier à vie. Depuis je vis légèrement ne me consacrant plus qu’à l’écriture, sans plus de soucis, mon stock d’enclumes au grenier.

    Raphaël Zacharie de Izarra
    raphael.de-izarra@wanadoo.fr
    2, Escalier de la Grande Poterne
    72000 Le Mans
    FRANCE
    Téléphone : 02 43 80 42 98
    Freebox : 08 70 35 86 22

Trackbacks & Pingbacks

  1. […] The simple answer to the first question is that not only did the Dutch editors know full well what they were stepping in, that was more or less the point. For reasons that are at least partially their own fault (see here and here) many European countries have become increasingly burdened with a breed of fundamentalist Islam that, like most extreme fundamentalism, sets out to impose its particular rules and taboos on everybody (that, by the way, is the basis for John’s American Taliban comment – the subset of fundamentalists who want to impose their mores on others involuntarily, by violence if necessary. The relative degree of violence does not change the larger point). Radical fundamentalism inevitably runs up against a western tradition in which nobody and nothing is considered immune scrutiny and humor, as experienced by Salman Rushdie, Theo Van Gogh and countless others who have recieved beatings and death threats over the last ten years. […]

  2. […] Entre L’Enclume Et Le Marteau […]

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