This is spectacular news:
Defying the White House, the Senate overwhelmingly agreed Wednesday to regulate the detention, interrogation and treatment of prisoners held by the American military.
The measure ignited a fierce debate among many Senate Republicans and the White House, which threatened to veto a $440 billion military spending bill if the detention amendment was tacked on, saying it would bind the president’s hands in wartime. Nonetheless, the measure passed, 90 to 9, with 46 Republicans, including Bill Frist of Tennessee, the majority leader, joining 43 Democrats and one independent in favor.
More than two dozen retired senior military officers, including Colin L. Powell and John M. Shalikashvili, two former chairmen of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, endorsed the amendment, which would ban use of “cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment” against anyone in United States government custody.
It would also require all American troops to use only interrogation techniques authorized in a new Army field manual. It would not cover techniques used by the Central Intelligence Agency.
That is spectacular news. Our troops should never have been put in this position, and I am still unable to believe that no one has been held accountable for pas transgressions. Well, they did get criminal mastermind Lyddie England.
I will never vote for John McCain for his participation in creating McCain/Feingold, but he deserves the lions share of the credit for this. Thank you, Sen. McCain.
Nikki
Yeah, it would’ve helped if you had stood up earlier, Sen. McCain, like perhaps by a symbolic nay vote for Gonzales for Attorney General, but better late than never.
SomeCallMeTim
That is spectacular news.
How sad is that reaction? Or, more properly, how sad is it that such is the appropriate reaction under a Republican government? What say we hold off sucking McCain’s d*ck until (a)the parallel legislation gets passed in the House, (b) the language doesn’t mysteriously get lost in conference, and (c) the President signs it into law, rather than actually deploying his veto power for the first time in his Administration? The Republicans are in charge in all those circumstances, too, so it’s hardly a sure thing.
Davebo
Tim,
Agreed, it’s way to early to start popping champagne corks over this one.
It will most certainly be watered down in committee. Because apparantly Dubya lost his veto stamp.
Slide
I still find it amazing that the administration is threatening to veto this legislation, putting them firmly on the side of torture. You know I was never one that thought having military service a prerequisite for high office, but this bunch of chicken hawks seem to have no concept of what is, or is not, in the best interest of OUR military. No reasonable military man would, I believe, think that the prisoner abuses we have witnessed does anything but hurt our mission, our military and our country. Hats off to the Republicans that are standing up to this very out of touch administration.
DougJ
So what? You think this will change anything?
John S.
Hats off to those Republican Senators who are scared shitless over their re-election efforts next year, and are desperate to send a message to their constituents that they aren’t “with” Bush even though they are with him.
Hippie Doug J
But Sen. Jeff Sessions (news, bio, voting record), R-Ala., called the legislation unnecessary. “We do not have … systematic abuse of prisoners going on by our United States military,” he said.
Denial is not just a river in Egypt.
Geek, Esq.
90-9 is pretty convincing. Let’s see how the House deals with this.
Slide
Hey, I’m as cynical as the next guy, but yes a 90 to 9 Senate vote AGAINST the administration’s wishes will change some things. I think that finally the legislative branch realizes they are not just a rubber stamp for this President. Perhaps they may even realize they are a co-equal branch of government? Perhaps Pentagon white-washes won’t go as unchallenged as they have in the past? Perhaps young military officers will be less intimidated in talking out? Perhaps, just perhaps, we can start realizing what makes America a great country. Yesterday’s vote was a small step in that direction.
Jim Allen
Let’s not forget to acknowledge the Pro-Torture Senators:
Allard (R-CO)
Bond (R-MO)
Coburn (R-OK)
Cochran (R-MS)
Cornyn (R-TX)
Inhofe (R-OK)
Roberts (R-KS)
Sessions (R-AL)
Stevens (R-AK)
And let’s also remember that they are all, indeed, Republicans.
John S.
Weren’t there even a couple Republicans who were seemingly Pro-Lynching?
circlethewagons
Poor Oklahoma.
They’ve got a full set of boobs representing them.
Jim Allen
Re: “Weren’t there even a couple Republicans who were seemingly Pro-Lynching?”
Perhaps they just considered lynching a subset covered under the pro-torture protocols.
David Rossie
The administration is threatening to veto a military spending bill? Does that mean they are against the troops? I mean, that was the allegation when Democrats voted against earlier spending bills with strings attached.
Stormy70
I don’t think being against the coddling of prisoners will go against these guys, esp. in OK and Texas. Oklahoma is dealing with a suicide bomber at their Sooner football stadium, so I think the Okies are a might stirred up right now.
bs23
slightly off-topic, but will someone explain why mccain-feingold is such a bug up conservatives’ ass? i’d also ask about trial lawyers, but i’m convinced that’s just partisan hysteria (see also: leftists and CEOs), though you’d really think the world was going to end any day now, unless we pass some serious tort reform!!!
danelectro
not torturing is now equal to coddling of prisoners.
Andrew Reeves
“I will never vote for John McCain for his participation in creating McCain/Feingold…”
Some perspective here.
During the Vietnam war, McCain was serving his country as a fighter pilot. He was shot down and spent a hellish period of time as a POW in North Vietnam. Meanwhile, Bush was doing lines and keeping the North Vietnamese Air Force out of the skies of Texas.
In 1999, when the GOP was discovering its inner Chomsky and railing on about Clinton’s “illegal war” in Kosovo, McCain was one of the few people who strongly advocated fighting the war more aggressively, regardless of what polls said. In the summer of 2004, Bush had most of Al Anbar turned over to Ba’athists so as to have less visible combat and make his re-election easier.
Since 2001, the Bush administration and it’s allies in Congress have been striving to bankrupt the government. In that same time, McCain has consistently voted against those measures that cause deficits which both put a drain on the economy and allow the Chinese to have us by the short and curlies.
The Bush cabinet has been carrying out a “look the other way in event of torture” policy. McCain has been strongly advocating that as the good guys maybe we not torture people.
With all of that borne in mind, even though McCain Feingold is a pretty transparent attempt to muffle GOP donors, it’s something that I would be more than happy to put up with in light of McCain is light years more responsible than Bush in just about every aspect.
John S.
Only in Stormy’s world (and maybe Darrell, DefenseGuy, et al).
John S.
David Rossie says:
Of course not…the administration was for the spending bill before they were against it.
bs23
Andrew Reeves @10:59: “…even though McCain Feingold is a pretty transparent attempt to muffle GOP donors…”
ah, now I understand. it would seem that the trial lawyer hysteria is the flipside of the same coin — Republican strategy to cut off a source of typically Democratic funds.
Lee
The terrorist have won
/sarcasm off
Steve
The House is all up in arms about the high and mighty principle of not attaching this amendment to a spending bill, so the smart money says that it will look completely different when it emerges from conference committee.
There is a very basic moral test at issue here, and while I respect Stormy as an intelligent conservative, I think she and the 9 no-voters have failed it.
Tim F
Wow. When people want to know why we must release the abu Ghraib director’s cut, I give you Stormy.
Another Jeff
Oh God, hasn’t that idiotic meme died yet? Somehow, not signing on as a sponsor to a bill that apologizes for something that you had nothing to do with makes someone “pro-lynching”? Give it a fucking rest.
Shygetz
Then tell me, Another Jeff, why didn’t they sign on to the bill? What message were they trying to send by abstaining from signing the bill?
Halffasthero
This new loaw does seem like window-dressing and too little too late. The damage is already done and they never charged anyone other than privates and noncom’s. Basically it is whitewash legislation.
And yes, Bush should be painted as against the troops if he vetos this. Not that it will do any good. He is an amoral jack ass.
Running the clock out waiting for the work bell. 3 day weekend coming. : )
Another Jeff
Maybe that idiotic, feel-good resolutions that accomplish absolutely nothing aren’t worth signing onto?
DougJ
The only way anything comes of this is if people get nailed really hard in the Plame probe. Hate to keep dwelling on that, but unless it or something else brings the White House to its knees, Karl Rove will keep on bitch slapping the Senate all over Capitol Hill.
Defense Guy
Only, I never said that. Which pretty much just makes you a liar. Get your head out of your ass and stop pretending you can paint everyone with your delusional fantasies.
DougJ
If I lived in Oklahoma, I’d think about suicide too.
Then again, maybe he just wants to get sent to Gitmo. I would too — if I lived in Oklahoma.
Shygetz
DefenseGuy–Now, now, JohnS did say “maybe”
Shygetz
AnotherJeff–Given the bad press they got for not signing on to it, it looks like if that’s what they thought, they were wrong. Now if they thought that signing on to that bill would hurt them among some of their more, um, historical constituents, then we will have to wait and see if they were right.
DougJ
Why did Allard vote against it? He’s not from Jesus/trailer park/torture land.
TallDave
I think anything that encourages people to act civilly is a good step.
But people need to understand reality. Statistically speaking, Iraq prisoner abuse has been rare, considerably less prevalent than abuse in our civilian prison system. I don’t understand why otherwise intelligent people like John Cole insist there must be some Vast Conspiracy of Torturers and that anyone in the military who disagrees is part of the conspiracy. We know from studies of human nature in these circumstances that petty, cruel mistreatment of prisoners is the norm; there doesn’t need to be a “criminal mastermind” for it to happen, just insufficient competence and diligence in preventing it.
Lines
Putting someone in a sleeping bag and beating the stuffing out of them until they slip into a coma then die is just considered “petty, cruel mistreatment”.
Nice to know we should just ignore it from now on. Rush was right, its just a frat prank, they’re blowing off some steam when they beat people to death, break their legs with baseball bats and anally violate them with chemical light sticks.
Thanks TD, thats all cleared up now.
SeesThroughIt
Reminds me of a comedian’s quip: “So I was just in Tulsa…how can an entire city have Downs syndrome?”
We already know that the Bush administration is basically pro-torture; are those nine senators really trying to hitch their wagon to that?
TallDave
Lines,
You’re an idiot, thanks for clearing that up.
TallDave
It’s amazing how stupid the admin critics are on this. Torture is OK? Just a prank? Blowing off steam? NO ONE IS SAYING THAT EXCEPT YOU, MORONS.
Sojourner
Don’t waste your time arguing with Stormy on this issue. She holds this position steadfastly even if it means supporting the rape of women and children.
Somewhere along the way, she gave up her soul to support this president at all costs. Both sad and scary.
DougJ
What makes you so sure she had one?
TallDave, actually Rush Limbaugh *did* say torture was a prank.
Axien
DougJ, I’m glad you were the one to say it and not me. What makes it even more strange is that he made the claim in the same thread Stormy said this:
Mike
Well, Sessions really is a boob. It was very funny how he and McCain exchanged barbs yesterday over Fishback.
BTW funny also how CFR (“McCain-Feingold”) is some sort of last resort in opposing McCain, who plain clearly just isn’t liked by the right wing. And it’s really weird when CFR trumps fiscal sanity, military oversight and pro-environment, when weighing merits.
Defense Guy
DougJ
The problem is that all instances are folded up into the catchphrase of torture. Some of the incidents do rise to that level, and others do not. Not that we have people who are willing to examine each instance on it’s own merits, not when they have the more fulfilling job of bashing the evil righties or the administration.
Defense Guy
Mike
Not so weird when you consider that as a rule Americans don’t like restrictions on their speech, especially when that speech is political in nature.
DougJ
Defense Guy, tell me which ones are frat pranks and which ones aren’t? Maybe three examples of each. Just so I know where you stand.
BTW, I know you don’t think torture is “okay”. I would never suggest that. Same for Tall Dave. But you both need to distinguish yourself from the Stormies and Limbaughs of the world here.
DougJ
I’m not interested in bashing the White House for the original instances of torture. But I will bash them for failing to treat it seriously once it happened. There’s a difference there.
Demanding accountability is not the same thing as blindly bashing. Not in my book.
Kimmitt
No joke.
Okay, this just isn’t true — Limbaugh and O’Reilley are both on record as using this language. Trust me; we would never have come up with it on our own. It’s just not the way we think.
DougJ
That’s a very good point. I’m ambivalent about releasing the new photos. But when you read people saying that this is about “coddling the prisoners”, maybe those people need to see these photos.
Lines
Condoning torture is unforgivable. Understanding that Abu Ghraib is the tip of the iceburg is a beginning. The abuses are systematic and, according to the soldiers themselves, condoned and learned from those above.
When right wing apologists like TallDave are completely unable to come to grips with the fact that many of the instances were not petty, nor cruel, it just makes you ALL look like apologists. Rush had seen all of the pictures that have been released and made the statement that likened it to a college frat hazing and that the soldiers were just blowing off some steam.
Now that more and more soldiers are coming forth with stories, how can you continue to condone these abuses? And if you are so willing to condone it, can I borrow your wife for awhile, fly her to Egypt and perform the same types of activities on her? After all, its just a little prank.
Do you blow off steam by breaking your neighbor’s leg with a baseball bat? Do you smother your house guests inside a sleeping bag? Why not?
TallDave
Lines,
What a load of idiotic, nonsensical BS. Torture isn’t cruel? You know our soldiers are systematically torturing people how, exactly? You don’t. Who is condoning torture? I’ve said repeatedly anyone committing torture should be punished, and the admin has said the same.
What we don’t need is idiots like you saying there is systematic torture going on when there’s no evidence of that. It demeans our troops and encourages our enemies.
Next we’ll have John Kerry comparing our soldiers to Ghengis Khan again.
KC
Good for McCain and the great majority of Senators. Despite what TallDave says, they obviously know what has been done is reprehensible. After all, they’ve seen pictures that we have yet to see; they know the real scope of what the problem is. The generals are behind it too, which is even more persuasive evidence of the need for this type of legislation.
Lines
Its you that said it:
And the photos, the stories, the testimonies all point to clear evidence that the torture is known, its condoned, and its systematic.
I’m sure Al Queda is reading my posts here, so I guess I’ll just sit down and shut up before I encourage them too much more.
TallDave
Idiots like Lines are the reason the photos should not be released. These idiots will trumpet them to the world saying “SEE! TORTURE IS OFFICIAL U.S. POLICY! U.S. SOLDIERS ARE ALL MONSTERS, THEY’RE NO BETTER THAN SADDAM HUSSEIN’S THUGS!”
TallDave
clear evidence that the torture is known, its condoned, and its systematic.
That’s a crock of troop-bashing BS. Where’s the evidence anyone condoned it? There isn’t any.
TallDave
I guess things haven’t change much in 30 years:
they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Ghengis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war
The Left still hates our military and will jump at any chance to call them torturing, murdering thugs.
slide
TallDave:
Huh? How do you know how rare it is? By the number of investigations? lol. Actually prisoner abuse seems to be quite widespread and not only in Iraq but in Afghanistan as well. (See below article) And to suggest that prisoner abuse is more prevalent in our civilian prison system is just a ridiculous absurd comment, much on the same par with Brit Hume’s idiot comparison of the homicide rate in LA and the dangers for our troops in Iraq. Is there a special school they sent right wingnuts to make absurd statistical arguments, or does it just come naturally?
.
Tim F
Patriotism, the last refuge of a doofus losing an argument.
Narvy
A few thoughts about some of the things being said here.
Any vote or abstention on a resolution has symbolic political value. Either these professional politicians are not aware of that, or they don’t care how they’re perceived, or they’re trying to send a message. I doubt that “not worth signing on” was the only consideration.
Yes, and so far no one in a position to have demonstrated that competence and diligence has been called to account for not doing so.
There’s a difference between condoning and committing. Are you suggesting that only the people who actually commit torture should be punished, and those above them in the chain of command who should have known about it, who could have prevented it, and who did not do so, should not be punished?
The thing that all the bleeding hearts don’t get is that by providing them with food, water, housing, and in some cases toilet facilities, we ARE coddling them. Stormy and company apparently think they should be penned up outdooors, forced to forage for themselves, and, no doubt, get a job instead of lying about all day.
DougJ
Tall Dave, you fell of the wagon and started spouting bs. Sometimes I think you’re a thoughtful Rovian, like DG, but other times — like now — you sound like a moron like Stormy.
Get it together. There’s still hope for you.
TallDave
Have detainee abuses occurred elsewhere in the war on terror? Of course. But they were “widespread” only if you define that term geographically instead of by frequency. The adjective “systematic” has been similarly misused. Overall, more than 70,000 detainees have passed through U.S. military custody since late 2001. About 500 criminal investigations have been conducted into allegations of related misconduct, many of which were found to be unsubstantiated. But more than 200 people have already been disciplined for actions ranging from failure to report to prisoner abuse itself.
There have also now been 12 major inquiries–including investigations led by Maj. Gen. George Fay and Vice Adm. Albert Church–into detainee treatment in Iraq, Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay. More than 2,800 interviews have been conducted and 16,000 pages of documents produced. And there have been 31 congressional hearings and 45 staff briefings. Given that track record, we can be quite sure that the latest abuse allegations to surface (from an officer of the 82nd Airborne) will get the thorough hearing they deserve.
Yeah, it’s all just “condoned” and “systematic.” That’s why we have all these investigations and trials.
Tim F,
You wouldn’t know patriotism if it bit you on the ass.
Tim F
I’m more patriotic because I expect my military to behave in a way that represents Americcan values, and you don’t. So there.
TallDave
DougJ,
You’ve never stopped spouting BS.
Tim F
extra ‘c’ due to speed typing.
TallDave
Tim F,
Yeah, you’re so patriotic you want to spit on our troops before the evidence is on. You’re a real credit to the nation.
jg
Not the first time he’s threatened to veto a military spending bill.
I voted for it before I voted against it…..because Bush threatened to veto the first bill we sent up.
TD, stop saying the left hates the troops. Your entire argument is lost when you leap at that strawman. Its a talking point put out there as a way to deflect the actual issue.
TallDave
TD, stop saying the left hates the troops
I’ll stop saying they hate the troops when they stop calling our troops systematic torturers and condoners of torture on the basis of weak and nonexistent evidence.
Also, you don’t seem to know what a strawman is.
Tim F
TallDave,
You’re so patriotic that you cheer on people who disgrace America.
TallDave
Tim F,
You’re not only unpatriotic, you’re stupid too. I’ve repeatedly said anyone who tortured anyone, ordered it, or condoned it should be punished.
Tim F
Chalk up another winner for the abu Ghraib director’s cut.
jg
A strawman is a made up person saying stuff that you can easily refute. kind of like saying the left hates the troops so you can attack the left from that point of view. You’re making up something to argue about. Strawman.
You probably have great points to make but as soon as you go Darrel I stop reading your posts. I understand your anger but its misplaced and its clouding your thinking. The left doesn’t hate hte troops, they don’t want to see troops die. Let that go and talk about the issue. The administration does condone whats gone on. Memos back it up. Maybe libs have exagerated the issue but thats because the administration has acted like it hasn’t happened and they don’t need to answer to anyone anyway.
DougJ
Tall Dave, why do you hate America?
Mike S
You’re a fucking idiot. I suppose you now put McCain, Graham, Cole and Tacitus on the left now.
TallDave
Have you read what the military investigation found in the Abu Ghraib case? One shift, one unit, one section of the prison. It wasn’t systematic, it was a few bad apples.
Chalk up another winner for leftist, troop-bashing ignorance.
Nikki
Interesting how Tall Dave has chosen to ignore those posts that show some on the right (Limbaugh, O’Reilly) DID say that the torture was a prank.
TallDave
Mike S,
No, you’re the fucking idiot. I said I support the bill.
DougJ
And Tall Dave, I support your right to hate America. I’d just like to know what made you hate it so much? Was it being picked on as a kid?
Okay, this is turning into a pile-on. I’m out.
TallDave
Nikki,
Intersting that you’re stupid enough to conflate actual prank-level things like putting panties on someone’s head with actual torture.
DougJ
Sorry there, Tall Dave. I just like asking Bushies why they hate America. You’re okay in my book, even if you fall off the wagon sometimes.
TallDave
DougJ,
I love America, it’s idiots like you that hate it.
TallDave
DougJ,
Great, but you’re still an idiot in my book.
slide
TallDave inscrutable logic:
yes TallDave how many high ranking officers have been charged? You can’t have it both ways, saying that there were all these many many investigations involving many many incidents and yet no high ranking officer was aware what was going on? just the midnight shifts having a little unauthrorzed fun? Not very bright TallDave but we already know that from your posts.
And as to your claims of patritism, they fall quite hollow. My patriotism is to the ideals of my country, not what may be done in its name. Was it unpatriotic to voice opposition to the slaughter of our native americans? Was it unpatriotic to scream and yell about slavery? or segregation? Patriotism means a lot more to me than just wearing a flap pin in one’s lapel and looking the other way as immoral acts are committed in our name. Why do you hate america so much Tall Dave that you don’t care that our good name is sullied in such a horrible name? You should be ashamed to call yourself an American.
TallDave
At least Clinton was honest enough to admit he “loathes the military.” You lefties don’t even have the courage to admit it, you pretend to be patriots while smearing our troops.
DougJ
That’s okay, Tall Dave. I know you’re kind of upset right now.
TallDave
I’m not the least upset, and you’re an idiot regardless.
DougJ
Well, you sound upset to me, Tall Dave. You’re usually a lot nicer than this.
Mike S
The next time I’m on vacation with twelve of my military friends, both active and retired, I’ll have to ask them if the child TellDave is right that I hate my country and the military. I’m sure they’ll laugh at the idiot as much as I do.
TallDave
slides impeccable logic:
TallDave how many high ranking officers have been charged?
WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE that they did anything to be charged for??? Remeber “evidence?” The thing you need to charge someone with a crime?
involving many many incidents
The number of incidents was small for the number of prisoners and troops involved, and many were found to be unsubstantiated.
My patriotism is to the ideals of my country, not what may be done in its name.
How about the ideal of “innocent until proven guilty?” Guess that got tossed out the window.
TallDave
Mike S,
Be sure to tell them the military is systematic torturers. I’m sure they’ll laugh at what an idiot you are.
Tim F
It’s amazing that the message hasn’t sunk in yet. I’ll say it directly. Attacking people’s patriotism is the grown-up version of cooties, except for the grown-up part. It’s a cheap dodge for people who can’t or won’t answer a question directly.
TallDave
DougJ,
Well, I’m not that nice when idiots call my beloved military a bunch of torturing goons.
slide
TallDave it is YOU that is smearing the troops. You want to lay the blame on the poor privates and corporals while giving the generals and civilian leadership a pass. When troops systematically abuse prisoners its because LEADERSHIP is condoning it directly (Rummy’s memos allowing dogs to be used in interrogation, etc) or indirectly (wink, wink, I see nothing). YOU are the one that wants the troops to be hung out to dry, to be blamed for the horrible abuses we see.
McCain hates the troops? Graham hates the troops? TallDave you are a complete moron and i’m never going to let a complete moron tell me I don’t support the troops. So you can just shove your faux patriotism.
Narvy
So is it OK to play pranks on prisoners as long as one doesn’t torture them? Putting panties on the head of someone raised in a culture with very strict sexual mores is merely a prank? Is humiliation in general merely a prank? Is it OK for American soldiers to alleviate their stress by treating a prison as a frat house?Is it OK to treat prisoners as playthings for one’s amusement?
TD, could you elaborate on this?
TallDave
Tim F,
You’d have to have some patriotism for me to attack it.
As usual, leftists pretend any attack on their patriotism is wrong and should be off limits. Guess I struck a nerve there.
TallDave
Narvy,
I didn’t say it was OK; that’s for a military tribunal to decide. But it ain’t torture.
Mike S
Right idiot. Because I’ve said that all along. I’m sure that the ones that are Republicans will be very happy to know that idiots like you have their backs.
Tim F
I pointed out earlier that I am more patriotic than you are. Easily proven – you think that these guys are behaving like Americans, I do not. QED, I win.
You’ve gone into this tit-for-tat reactive behavior where you start reacting like a child. DougJ is right, it’s nappy time. See you on the next thread.
DougJ
I’m not saying that. I’m saying that I think the Pentagon has let the troops down by not setting conditions and guidelines up that would prevent this kind thing from happening. I believe, of course, that anyone who tortures should be disciplined. But I just don’t think any of this happened without problems having occurred higher up the chain of command.
I’m not even sure you disagree with me on this issue. I just don’t like it when the Bushies say “the left hates the military” any more than I like it when the left compares the Bushies to fascists.
If that makes me an idiot, then I guess I’m an idiot.
TallDave
slide,
You find me the smallest shred of evidence that any officer did anything wrong, and I am 100% behind a prosecution. What I despise is this notion that “Oh, since it happened in some cases the whole military must be aware and think torture is OK.”
When troops systematically abuse prisoners its because LEADERSHIP is condoning it directly
Bullshit. People do things they aren’t supposed to, things they’ve been told NOT to do.
Defense Guy
OK DougJ From the recent AP article:
Depending on the time involved, this is interrogation tactics used by local police departments. I wouldn’t necessarily classify it as torture, barring more information.
Potentially torture, depending on length of time and how extreme.
This along with the dog leash photo, are what I believe are the source of the pranks claim. Humiliation to be sure, but not torture. Now, if she was dragging his ass with a leash around his neck then I’d say that elevates it to torture.
Torture, no question.
Torture.
Torture.
Torture.
As to the claim of it being widespread and systematic. There are 150,000 or so troops in Iraq, and I do not believe for a second that a majority or even a substantial number are involved in this. I’d want way more proof before I would be willing to call it widespread and systematic.
slide
IdiotDave:
Captain Fishback’s testimony is EVIDENCE. He said that he repeatedly tried to report the abuses but they were ignored. He was basically told to keep quiet. I know you might not know this Dave but testimony is EVIDENCE. More evidence is in memos from the civilian leadership in the Pentagon regarding prisoner handling that have been NOT released. Classified you know….national secrets… how convenient….
More for IdiotDave:
show me where someone called the military a bunch of toturing goons. More strawmen for IdiotDave to debate.
Is IdiotDave for real? or is this just one big troll? Can anyone be as stupid as he sounds? Is this just to egg us all on with moronic childish comments?
Narvy
I know you didn’t, but reasonable people might draw the inference from what you did say. And, yes, it’s not torture in the sense of causing physical pain or damage to the body. But are you contending that psychological pressures are not a form of torture? The panties episode was an act of sexual humiliation. That may be a prank in New Haven, but it may be something a lot worse than that in a Muslim culture.
TallDave
DougJ, etc.
Military discipline is never perfect. If you expect prisoner mistreatment to never happen, ever, you’re holding them to an impossible standard. If you want to be reasonable, you compare mistreatment rates to civilian prisons, and consider the incredible pressure our troops are working under, and then you have to admit they’ve done a reasonably good job.
THAT is the real problem here: people aren’t willing to look rationally at how common mistreatment, including torture and murder, is in prisons, and how difficult prisoner mistreatment is to prevent even under ideal circumstances. You all want to play gotcha instead, and say “SEE! RUSMFELD MADE THEM TORTURE! IT’S ALL BUSH’S FAULT!” Fine, rail at Bush if you want. But unless you have evidence, LEAVE OUR TROOPS THE FUCK ALONE.
As much fun as this was, I’m out. Remember: our troops deserve to be innocent until proven guilty!
slide
I don’t blame you as you’ve made quite an ass of yourself. Look forward to the next time you entertain us with your brilliance.
DougJ
Thanks, Defense Guy. I agree with your classification of torture versus not torture.
jg
Local police departments do this in interrogation? No wonder so many crooks go free. Local police would have to starve a person or sleep deprive them for days to make this effective, only the stupidest criminal wouldn’t ask for a lawyer almost immediately. Of course peeps in Gitmo or Grhaib can’t ask for a lawyer so its more effective there.
As a punishment these techniques are acceptable but if they’re being used to extract information, then its torture. Its light torture, early methods, but its still torture if the intent is to get a person to talk. The problem is when stuff like this is condoned then its more likely worse stuff will happen. Give an inch, take a mile.
We are better than them. Who? Anyone that can be brought up as an excuse that they do worse. We’re better than them.
Bob
Gee, TallDave, who spiked your koolaid? Your ranting about who’s unpatriotic is enlightening to those of us who thought you may have a lick of sense in you.
Two words: “extraordinary rendition.” Yeah, it’s been around for awhile, back to Clinton, maybe Bush the 1st. But then so were glo-sticks. The Bush administration rejiggered their own interpretation of the Geneva Conventions, US law, the code of military justice, whatever, to get more wiggle room to deal with prisoners. They invented a new categories between “prisoner of war” and “not prisoner of war.” People are being put in legal limbo dying cockroach position in violation of Anglo-Saxon legal premises that go back a thousand years.
The criticism here is about the Bush Administration, not the military. You give a kid candy, he eats it. You give the military the ability to torture without question and they torture. The same CIA/military intelligence guys who ran Operation Phoenix in Vietnam, worked with and ran Operation Condor in South America (and in the case of a certain car bombing, in Washington DC) are no doubt the same folks running the Lynndee photo show in Iraq.
You come in here presuming that criticism of torture is criticism of soldiers. When I was in the army you did your time and went back to civilian life. The military was supposed to be a means to an end, not the end in and of itself. There must have been some kind of wedding ceremony between you and the military during your time, or a welding ceremony, because you can’t seem to see how torturing people, or an administration that wants to veto restrictions on torturing people, may not be good for the country as a whole.
slide
As a 20 year police veteran, I can attest that the above is not acceptable interrogation tactics and would bar any confession or information obtained under such circumstances as being coerced and therefor not usable.
Off topic for a moment. Lawrence O’Donnell who was the first reporter reporting that Cooper’s source was Rove, and has been dead right on the Wilson leak investigation, has a prediction on indictments. He said:
the interesting part for me, and something that I suggested a while back, unindicted co-conspirators. Cheney? Bush? hmmm… methinks next week is going to be very interesting.
Defense Guy
Of course the only thing we have to do to be better than them is to not videotape ourselves sawing captives heads off, or shooting them. It’s not the right argument, as we are better then them even with this crap. The better argument is that we simply do not torture because it is immoral and illegal.
BTW – It is fairly common police interrogation technique, more the deprivation of sleep than the others. Also, many criminals are stupid, thankfully.
Clever
Hey now, what happend to BJ Civility Thursday?
Defense Guy
I’ll defer to your experience on this, although I know it is still used in places. Also, please note that I said:
‘I wouldn’t necessarily classify it as torture, barring more information.’
slide
Defense Guy:
I agree. What THEY do should have no bearing on what WE do. We should do the right thing because that is what America stands for (or should). Period.
jobiuspublius
The beautifull part is McClellan saying that it is redundant and interferes with the WOT.(Find your own dam links!)
This is show and tell. Let’s see what the new army manual says. Although, that could cause Monster in Cheif to stop hiding the salami:
Halffasthero
That is a cheap shot. And really uncalled for. I really wish you wouldn’t do that.
Slartibartfast
Good God, slide and I agree on something.
We must both be wrong.
So, here’s my take: this isn’t so much an admission of widespread torture at the troop level as it is an explicit admission that torture is considered acceptable at the executive level. If you’re of the sadistic bent and know that the guy at the top of the chain thinks torture might be ok under some undisclosed circumstances, this knowledge might tend to look like permission. If you and a bunch of your friends are torturing prisoners and getting off scot-free, other like-minded sadistic bastards might be encouraged.
So: not only should this be explicitly disallowed, but prisoners should be required to be under the supervision of the US military at all times, and the welfare of each prisoner should be responsible of the officer in charge of the facility.
I don’t think this removes any of Bush’s powers; he’s still free to order the torturing of specific prisoners. I do think it’ll enhance accountability a great deal, though.
Slartibartfast
responsibility, even. Cole’s spelling impediment is rubbing off, it seems.
Mike S
McCain’s speach from yesterday, from A Sullivan
slide
Slartibartfast said:
I couldn’t agree more. Like in many organizations where there is a possibility for abuse to occur (police departments, correctional facilities, etc) those abuses inevitably WILL occur unless there strong leadership taking active steps to prevent it. It is human nature that under the stressful condidions of war, there will always be some that go over the line, take that extra step. Become abusive. If that isn’t immediatly and systematically dicouraged by policy, reprimand, discipline and firm leadership then you open the gates for more and more abuse. Failure to deal with individual cases of abuse becomes tacit approval of misconduct.
That is why I as so strong on going after the higher ups because it is they that are truly repsonsible, not the poor 20 year old private that is looking for, and needs, clear boundries of behavior. They let this happen. This is a massive failure of command and they should be held responsible.
slide
Off Topic: This just in re: CIA Leak Investigation:
hmmmm… not looking too good for the Rovester if he is going before the Grand Jury yet again at this late state.
jobiuspublius
Hmm, Myers retires, Carey and Abizaid disagree with the WH. This could be some intersting blame game if torture becomes a hot legal issue. I wonder how the punishment of low ranking enlisted affects the highest ranking officers. Maybe that’s why some enlisted seem to get off with a slap on the wrist, making precedent.
Sojourner
Why is this a cheap shot? Stormy has been repeatedly provided with evidence demonstrating the fact that women and children have been raped while under American control. Yet she has repeatedly expressed her position that there has been no torture of prisoners. So the obvious conclusion is that she doesn’t have a problem with rape.
rayabacus
Do you have links to this evidence? I had heard only accusations of rapes, no evidence.
Sojourner
Here’s one. There’s more. Try google.
rayabacus
Evidence? This link is unsubstantiated allegations on a par with the newsreports of rapes and murders at the Convention Cneter in NOLA. Google just has the same stuff all going back to a couple of unreliable sourcing with no collaboration.
Sojourner
Sy Hersh is a very reliable journalist. At least for those who want to hear the truth.
rayabacus
Didn’t say he wasn’t. What publication did he write this “expose” for? If he has all of this damning evidence, why isn’t this very reliable journalist writing the story? It has Pulitzer written all over it if it is true and can be sourced. Question again, why hasn’t he written the story?
Sojourner
He did write it. In The New Yorker. The same magazine through which he broke the Abu Graib story.
Obviously, you haven’t been paying attention.
Slide
rayabacus that is why some of us what the AG photos and videos released because guys like you are disputing what went on. The videos are supposed to show iraq boys being raped (not by US soldiers I might add). So since you are so interested in “seeing” evidence, I assume you support releasing the photos/videos of AG. Right?
Oh, and you asked for evidence of rape? How about the report by Major General Taguba? Is that evidenece enough for you? A snippet:
.
Andrew J. Lazarus
What, the land of high school bathrooms with rampant lesbianism? Bet the national teacher shortage hasn’t hit there.
So much for the jokes. Here are some serious questions:
1. TallDave: What sort of chain of evidence shows that the highest levels of the Nazi government were responsible for Auschwitz, and not just the commanders on site? Please compare this to the evidence (Woo memo, Bybee memo, JAG memos) connecting Bush Administration policy with improper treatment of detainees.
2. Is it just me, or is there something weird about saying there is no evidence of rape, while insisting that we do not release the photographic evidence that is strongly rumored to show rape?
3. What exactly is the evidence that mistreatment of prisoners is isolated? ICRC reports? Or is this wishful thinking based on out of sight, out of mind.
4. Enumerate specifically those practices that the Senate bill would prohibit that are essential to the War on Terror, Bush style.
Defense Guy
Sy Hersh is on record as being willing to lie when it suits the purpose he feels is right. He knows better than to write down his lies, but in public speaking engagemants, another story.
Google that, and tell me I’m wrong.
Cassidy
“allDave how many high ranking officers have been charged?
WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE that they did anything to be charged for??? Remeber “evidence?” The thing you need to charge someone with a crime?”
It’s the responsibility of leadership. You might want to learn a litle more about how you’re “beloved military” works.
DougJ, there have always been guidleines. Anyone who says they weren’t properly trained is full of shit. It’s a weak and dishonest defense. Secondly, a whole squad does not get away with something, without someone higher up knowing about. Joe (Privates) talk people, that’s what they do best.
slide
Defense Guy:
Here is a perfect example of right wingnut technique. We are debating rape in Abu Gharib. Someone mentions that Sy Hersch had written/talked about it. So then we have now an attack on the credibility of Sy Hersch, totaly ignorning the underlying issue: rape in AG. Sound familiar.
Attack Paul O’Neil not his revealing Bush’s intent to invade Iraq on day one of administration.
Attack Richard Clarke not his revealing the total blind eye to terrorism the bush team had prior to 911.
Attack Joe Wilson for revealing that there was no yellowcake/Iraq connection that was hyped in the State of Union speech.
Attack Sy Hersch for revealing the sexual assaults at AG.
Ok Defense Guy forget about Hersch. The OFFICIAL ARMY REPORT of General Taguba states there were sexual assualts. There is VIDEO of sexual assaults that YOU argue should not be shown to the general public. But lets attack Hersch because we don’t like what he reports.
So very very typical Defense guy.
Defense Guy
Good lord you can be a pretentious ass slide. I said nothing about the alleged rape or about abu Ghraib, I merely pointed out that Sy Hersh is actually on record as being willing to lie. Which he is.
Take your outrgae somewhere else.
slide
Exactly my point. The only reason Hersch’s name was brought up was that he had discussed the rapes at AG. And rather than discuss the issue at hand you decided to discredit Hersch and thereby discredit the allegations of rape. Why else bring it up? Dont’ be so disingenious Defense Guy.
ROVE MANUAL: ATTACK AND DISCREDIT THE MESSENGER 101
Defense Guy
Right slide, the only time you should bring up credibility issues is when it helps the left, my bad. I’ll try to do better in the future.
Can’t bring in uncomfortable facts, wouldn’t be helpful to the ’cause’. Might be accused of ‘attacking the messanger’.
When we are discussing something in the future, I will remember to keep it one sided and not bring up these sort of things, I am SURE you will be obliged to do the same.
Defense Guy
If you were any more partisan, I imagine you would cut off your right leg and arm.
jg
But thats Slide’s point. When the subject is talked about the right wing approach is to avoid the issue by finding a back door out of the argument. You’re saying that since Hersh lied before you see no reason to continue any discussion where he’s involved. You’ve found an out.
Find a reason to not listen to someone making accusations against the administration, get that reason out to Limbaugh and the rest of the right wong media. And watch as TallDaves, Darrels and DG’s use that as a reason to completely avoid the issue. We don’t talk about what Joe Wilson found or reported on, we talk about whether or not he’s partisan and if this is all an orchestrated attack. That there was no yellowcake being bought is somehow on the back burner.
Do you not see that hasppening a lot?
Defense Guy
You are putting words in my mouth. I am saying that the credibility of anyone making any claim on any subject is always part of the discussion. It is not an attempt to get ‘out’ of the discussion, it is merely another factor which must be considered. Are you saying that the truthfullness of someone making a claim is not important to the claim he is making?
My attempt is caution, due to the source. It is not an attempt to quash the conversation or to sidetrack it.
Slide
defense guy…. Hersh is ONE guy that brought it up. He is not by any means the sole source. As I have stated several times before, the offical Army investigation says there were sexual assaults at AG. So, yes, it is irrelevant whether YOU think Pulitzer Winning reporter Hersh is credible or not. It has no bearing whatsover on the issue of rape in AG which is documented ON FUCKIN VIDEO for christ’s sake.
jg
Please. I was obviously talking about the implications of what you said. I know you didn’t say those exact words, but you were trying to blow off Hersh as a source. You were shutting it down with a quick, ‘he’s lied in the past’ put away. I’m sorry the RNC has made what you think is a deep, well thought out response into what is percieved as a talking point. Its so tragic for you.