The Death of Fiscal Conservatives

Breathtaking:

House Majority Leader Tom DeLay said yesterday that Republicans have done so well in cutting spending that he declared an “ongoing victory,” and said there is simply no fat left to cut in the federal budget.

Mr. DeLay was defending Republicans’ choice to borrow money and add to this year’s expected $331 billion deficit to pay for Hurricane Katrina relief. Some Republicans have said Congress should make cuts in other areas, but Mr. DeLay said that doesn’t seem possible.

All one has to do to highlight the breathtaking dishonesty in this statement is to look at the bloated highway bill that just passed.

I am hard pressed to disagree with anything the Carpetbagger has to say on this issue. In fact, I even ripped off the title to his post, so go read them.

*** Update ***

My expanded (briefly) thoughts on this can be found here. Thanks to commenter Yet Another Jeff for the most excellent title.

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373 replies
  1. 1
  2. 2
    Veeshir says:

    I would suggest it’s the death of the myth that ‘Republican’ and ‘conservative’ are synonyms.

    I did like these quotes though

    This is hardly a well-oiled machine,” said Rep. Jeff Flake, Arizona Republican. “There’s a lot of fat to trim. … I wonder if we’ve been serving in the same Congress.”
    American Conservative Union Chairman David A. Keene said federal spending already was “spiraling out of control” before Katrina, and conservatives are “increasingly losing faith in the president and the Republican leadership in Congress.”

  3. 3
    Trent says:

    The GOP has just become a joke now…

    The first comment on the Carpetbagger is asking if this is an Onion headline.

  4. 4
    Defense Guy says:

    I would not say the GOP is a joke, but am in agreement that being fiscally responsible is not even close to being a priority. It’s a crying shame, and someone had better step up and reassert it’s importance.

    We really could use a strong third party in this country. Not a bunch of new ones, but one really strong new one. I just don’t see any other way to get our government back.

  5. 5
    Krista says:

    House Majority Leader Tom DeLay said yesterday that Republicans have done so well in cutting spending that he declared an “ongoing victory,” and said there is simply no fat left to cut in the federal budget.

    Is he on glue? They’re spending like a bunch of drunken P.Diddys. (Or Diddy, or whatever the f**k he’s calling himself now.)

  6. 6
    Trent says:

    We really could use a strong third party in this country. Not a bunch of new ones, but one really strong new one. I just don’t see any other way to get our government back.

    Well, my hope is that the Democrats becomes the party that can appeal to the fiscal conservatives.

    Laugh and scoff, i know. And i’m not saying that they ARE that, i’m saying that i HOPE they become that. After all, it was a Democrat that balanced the budget while three Republican Presidents ran it through the roof.

    As loony as that may sound, who in 1995 would think that the Republicans would become the party of big government, runaway spending and government meddling into the affairs of private citizens?

  7. 7
    KC says:

    As loony as that may sound, who in 1995 would think that the Republicans would become the party of big government, runaway spending and government meddling into the affairs of private citizens?

    I think Trent asks a critical question. I know I wouldn’t have expected it. One of the reasons I became a Democrat is that I realized that there was no fiscal sanity to what Bush Republicans were doing. Of course, I’m not excusing Congressional Dems from going along with the insanity.

  8. 8
    ppGaz says:

    there is simply no fat left to cut in the federal budget.

    I don’t see why you guys have a problem with things like this.

    Democracy is “on the march” in Arabia, we’ve turned five corners there in three years.

    Intelligent design should be taught alongside science. Or for that matter, as science.

    Brownie was doing a heck of a job.

    Iraq could have given us a big mushroom cloud.

    Look, I’m only sic decades old, I just haven’t had the time to learn how to have “a little” intellectual integrity in one’s worldview. Yet you guys seem to do it without blinking.

    Fiscal conservatism? No fat left to trim? Levees weren’t expected to fail? World better off without Saddam? Uniter, not a divider?

    How do you cherry-pick which things to get upset about, and pretend that the others don’t exist?

    Either teach me how to do that, or with all due respect, take your faux “outrage” over pork and my quarter, and go call somebody who gives a shit.

  9. 9
    Boronx says:

    Maybe DeLay should fly a fighter into one of the Air Force Bases he’s closing and give a speech in front of a Mission Accomplished banner.

    would not say the GOP is a joke, but am in agreement that being fiscally responsible is not even close to being a priority.

    There’s a pretty big difference between making spending cuts a low priority and pretending that you’ve already done it.

  10. 10
    Veeshir says:

    My personal favorite is people who identify with Democrats attacking anybody for spending too much money.

    That should be an Onion headline.

    Dems assail the GOP for spending too much

  11. 11
  12. 12
    Stormy70 says:

    Bless his heart, for he’s lost his mind. Nothing to cut? Let me go through it and I will find plenty to cut.

  13. 13
    jobiuspublius says:

    So, how does it feel to get played?

  14. 14
    guyermo says:

    ppGaz, it’s 50 cents now to make a phone call.

    But honestly, with statements like that comming from Tom Delay, isn’t there a common sense fiscal Republican who is willing to run against him in the primaries?

  15. 15
    Trent says:

    isn’t there a common sense fiscal Republican who is willing to run against him in the primaries?

    Can you name one? I can’t think of one…

  16. 16
    capelza says:

    isn’t there a common sense fiscal Republican who is willing to run against him in the primaries?

    Can you name one? I can’t think of one…

    Somehow, I think the folks in Sugarland might not have felt the boning knife …he can blather all he wants, but it ain’t just bacon he brings home, but the whole pig…

    It’s them you all have to convince.

  17. 17
    Davebo says:

    Delay actually hurt himself with the recent TX redistricting taking in a lot of new territory that isn’t dominated by the GOP.

    He could face a stiff race.

  18. 18
    norbizness says:

    On a related note, I think DeLay announced that there have been no new indictments in Texas against people or PACs associated with him in the last two weeks. Whew!

  19. 19
    capelza says:

    Delay actually hurt himself with the recent TX redistricting taking in a lot of new territory that isn’t dominated by the GOP.

    He could face a stiff race.

    Well I’ll keep my fingers crossed then…lord I’d love to get rid of the whole “Contract with America” crew and start over with old-school Republicans. Used to vote for some of them…Delay and his crowd…no way.

  20. 20
    TallDave says:

    That is so disappointing.

    The really scary thing is everyone knows Dems would be worse.

    Is it too late to vote for Phil Gramm for President? Could Bob Dole re-introduce the Balanced Budget Amendment?

    No, sadly, those people are gone. Sigh. Fiscal conservatism is dead, dead, dead.

  21. 21
    Krista says:

    I think a lot of those old-school fiscal conservatives have been so marginalized that they’ve completely lost their voice. Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t the initial point of conservatism supposed to be small government, cautious spending, and minimal government interference in peoples’ lives? Now it’s the exact opposite! The only way that the current bunch can call themselves conservative is in their social attitudes.

  22. 22
    Andrei says:

    “The really scary thing is everyone knows Dems would be worse.”

    Really? Is that why with the tension between a GOP congress and Dem President we had a balanced budget through the 90s?

    Seriously TallDave, the whole “Dems would be worse” meme does a disservice to your party. Once people stop thinking like that, maybe we’ll get back on track in this country.

    The point: Everyone in government are all acting pretty bad these days. Stop giving them to room to act poorly with sentiments like “you did bad, but I know the other guy would do worse, so I guess… maybe I’ll just stay disappointed instead of outraged to hell.”

  23. 23
    srv says:

    Fiscal conservatism never existed. It was just something the then out-of-power Reps sang about. Few Reps can ever identify any program Reagan cut, but he was THE hero of small government. Go Figure. Nixon, Reagan, Bush I & son all big spenders. Will GW leave office w/o a single Veto?

    Only divided gov’t slowed spending growth, and not because the other really wanted to control it.

  24. 24
    Trent says:

    The point: Everyone in government are all acting pretty bad these days. Stop giving them to room to act poorly with sentiments like “you did bad, but I know the other guy would do worse, so I guess… maybe I’ll just stay disappointed instead of outraged to hell.”

    I agree. I don’t buy all this talk about Hillary and Frist and McCain for President. If you ask me, it’s going to be some populist movement for someone who’s not even on the charts.

    The current system is completely fucked and i think that by 2008, everyone is going to be sick of it and want to clean things out.

    That’s just my hunch.

  25. 25
    DaveG says:

    by 2008, everyone is going to be sick of it and want to clean things out.

    Would that it were so, but when greater than 50% of the voting populace is on the receiving end of egregious government largesse (aka pandering), they vote for their wallets.

  26. 26
    Krista says:

    The current system is completely fucked and i think that by 2008, everyone is going to be sick of it and want to clean things out.

    That’s just my hunch.

    I hope you’re right. The only thing is that the general populace is sick of it, and the general populace might vote for who becomes president, but the general populace does not get to decide who runs. You guys might end up with Hobson’s choice again, just like we did.

    Our two choices were “corrupt” or “crazy as a shithouse rat”. We’ve gone with “corrupt”…at least with him, there aren’t a whole lot of surprises.

  27. 27
    jg says:

    Will GW leave office w/o a single Veto?

    He almost vetoed his own bill to pay for his war in Iraq (its the reason Kerry was able to vote for a bill twice).

    The really scary thing is everyone knows Dems would be worse.

    whats scary is you think the situation would be worse if the dems were in charge. Why is it scarier that the federal gov’t would have the money to pay for the shit congress is buying?

    Kaiser Sozee once said that the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing people he didn’t exist. The greatest trick of the modern day conservative is to convince a portion of the american public that tax cuts for rich people coupled with massive borrowing is better for the long term growth of this country than any other alternative. Lots of people with no economics education following along because they hate liberals. Sad.

  28. 28
    ppGaz says:

    Seriously TallDave, the whole “Dems would be worse” meme does a disservice

    Well, you have to keep in mind where TD is coming from.

    This is the way the guy thinks:

    there is a lesson to learn from Vietnam. The lesson is: the moonbats in our media often want America to lose wars, they will generally do everything in their power to make that happen, and occasionally they will succeed with terrible consequences for all involved

    I have no respect for people who talk like that. I have no use for them, I do not care to share a country with them. The Vietnam Memorial in DC has around 50,000 names on it, many of whom died for the egos and the brain farts of people who say things like Dave’s blurb here.

    There is one and only one reason for America to fight a war: To protect the lives and land of Americans from a proximate threat. Wars are not to be fought for “principles”, to feed greed for power, to prove a point, to send a message, to support some sociopathic concept of “honor.”

    Dave is a guy who would send your kid to die for a slogan.

    I wouldn’t take anything he says seriously, ever.

  29. 29
    danelectro says:

    you know, the gop keeps handing the dems issues that could win elections. it makes you wonder if the dems are capable of taking advantage.

  30. 30
    Steve says:

    Under Dems, spending might not be any lower, but we would be paying for it, as opposed to putting it on our credit cards and passing it on to our kids. That would be better for our kids, worse for us, I guess.

  31. 31
    Trent says:

    Would that it were so, but when greater than 50% of the voting populace is on the receiving end of egregious government largesse (aka pandering), they vote for their wallets.

    True, there are too many Republican business leaders who need their government contracts and handouts.

  32. 32
    Trent says:

    you know, the gop keeps handing the dems issues that could win elections. it makes you wonder if the dems are capable of taking advantage.

    This is a concern of mine as well, but there’s something you gotta consider: I think the energy and passion and message is going to come from the Congressional challengers, not the DNC/DCCC/DSCC.

    These candidates are going to have their own voice, their own passion and their own anger. (And some of it will be at the Democratic establishment as well.) They’re not going to read from a script. (Especially one that is, at this point, so lacking.)

    I think it’ll be a country full of Paul Hacketts raising hell. At least that’s my hope.

  33. 33
    jg says:

    Asked if that meant the government was running at peak efficiency, Mr. DeLay said, “Yes, after 11 years of Republican majority we’ve pared it down pretty good.”

    All a good republican needs to feel secure in his love for the administration and to attack liberal arguments. Facts be damned, Tom has spoken. He said after 11 years republicans have fixed the federal gov’t. Conservatives rejoice! What can a liberal or any sane individual say that will change the minds of those who just bathed inthe words of Delay? Nothing. Rush will say the same thing later, so will Hannity and the argument will be dead.

  34. 34
    Trent says:

    This is an ironic headline.

    Bush tells UN it must change to earn respect

    Gee whiz, Uncle George, tell me more!

  35. 35
    ppGaz says:

    According the Eric Alterman, Bill Maher said this. I think it sort of wraps up the great accomplishments of the Spud Government. In light of this, pork seems like a rather minor transgression, really, but hey, it’s important to keep our focus, right?

    Mr. President, this job can’t be fun for you any more. There’s no more money to spend–you used up all of that. You can’t start another war because you used up the army. And now, darn the luck, the rest of your term has become the Bush family nightmare: helping poor people. Listen to your Mom. The cupboard’s bare, the credit cards maxed out. No one’s speaking to you. Mission accomplished.

    Now it’s time to do what you’ve always done best: lose interest and walk away. Like you did with your military service and the oil company and the baseball team. It’s time. Time to move on and try the next fantasy job. How about cowboy or space man? Now I know what you’re saying: there’s so many other things that you as President could involve yourself in. Please don’t. I know, I know. There’s a lot left to do. There’s a war with Venezuela. Eliminating the sales tax on yachts. Turning the space program over to the church. And Social Security to Fannie Mae. Giving embryos the vote.

    But, Sir, none of that is going to happen now. Why? Because you govern like Billy Joel drives. You’ve performed so poorly I’m surprised that you haven’t given yourself a medal. You’re a catastrophe that walks like a man. Herbert Hoover was a shitty president, but even he never conceded an entire city to rising water and snakes.

    On your watch, we’ve lost almost all of our allies, the surplus, four airliners, two trade centers, a piece of the Pentagon and the City of New Orleans. Maybe you’re just not lucky. I’m not saying you don’t love this country. I’m just wondering how much worse it could be if you were on the other side.

    So, yes, God does speak to you. What he is saying is: ‘Take a hint.’

  36. 36
    Defense Guy says:

    I think it’ll be a country full of Paul Hacketts raising hell. At least that’s my hope.

    Stop listening to Kos. Hackett lost the election. You need to set the bar a little higher.

  37. 37
    Krista says:

    I don’t always agree with Bill Maher, but that was well-said.

  38. 38
    Another Jeff says:

    It’s nice to see Bill Maher concerning himself with something other than finding his next 16yr old hooker or eight-ball of blow.

  39. 39
    Trent says:

    Stop listening to Kos. Hackett lost the election. You need to set the bar a little higher.

    You’re a tool DenseGuy.

    Hackett lost by 2 points in an uber-Republican district while repeatedly and proudly calling Bush a chicken-hawk.

    Keep savoring that victory. You’ll need to.

  40. 40
    JoeTx says:

    Veeshir Says:

    My personal favorite is people who identify with Democrats attacking anybody for spending too much money.

    The republicans problem with dems is that they spend the money on po folks instead of handing the money to defense contractors and corporate welfare. Now that the repubs are spending money on the po folks of Lousianna, Alabama and Ole Miss, they speak up.

    Deal was, the Dems where spending that money on social programs AND balancing the budget! Repubs are sending that money on up to the rich folk and writing IOU’s for everything, which is just flat out plain irresponsible…

  41. 41
    tBone says:

    Stop listening to Kos. Hackett lost the election. You need to set the bar a little higher.

    What’s the alternative, though? More wishy-washy, focus-grouped drones like Kerrey? Even though Hackett lost, it was refreshing to hear a Democrat just stand up and say exactly what he thought. I think that’s an element the party has been missing for a long time.

  42. 42
    Northman says:

    I’ll agree with the guy who says the system is fucked, but not that it will get cleaned out.

    Given the choice between Dems who’ll tax and spend, and Reps who’ll cut taxes short-term but spend anyway so taxes have to increase even more later on, what real choice do you have?

  43. 43
    Accountability is a dirty word says:

    When you tout ID over evolution in science classes it’s not much stretch to say the federal budget has no fat. I guess Delay now will claim his shit don’t stink.

  44. 44
    TallDave says:

    Andrei,

    GOP congress and Dem President we had a balanced budget through the 90s?

    Yes, the more relevant part of that sentence was “GOP congress.” Dems vetoed the Balanced Budget Amendment, and Clinton worked so ardently to avoid cutting the budget the GOP actually shut down the gov’t.

    ppGaz,

    re:

    there is a lesson to learn from Vietnam. The lesson is: the moonbats in our media often want America to lose wars, they will generally do everything in their power to make that happen, and occasionally they will succeed with terrible consequences for all involved

    Go read Giap’s memoirs, then Counterpunch and Zmag, then explain to me which part of that isn’t 100% true.

    There are as hell are 50,000 dead heroes on that wall, and the liberals in our media made damned sure they died for nothing. Had we simply continued arming the S Vietnamese and providing air support rather than leaving them defenseless, they’d still be as free as S Korea. Instead we had boat people, re-education camps, hundreds of thousands massacred, and tens of millions sentenced to life in a Communist dictatorship.

  45. 45
    Accountability is a dirty word says:

    Clinton’s Treasury secretary Rubin new the importance of balanced budgets and fiscal discipline. Clinton’s tax increase of 1993 put Democrats on their swords but helped to create an environment of increased attention to deficits. The Republican Congress was instrumental but not decisive in the improved budget picture by the late 90’s.

  46. 46
    Defense Guy says:

    You’re a tool DenseGuy.

    Hackett lost by 2 points in an uber-Republican district while repeatedly and proudly calling Bush a chicken-hawk.

    Keep savoring that victory. You’ll need to.

    OK witty guy, but at least I don’t think losing an election is something to crow about. But hey, at least he lost with ‘class’.

    Actually, when you think about it, we were both happy with the outcome and should look forward to more just like it. I will be happy to work towards more narrow Democrat losses, and to know this will please you as well.

    See what a giver I am.

    tBone

    That kind of crap will stimulate the base like no ones business, but it will turn off everyone else. There are other reasons why he did so well, but his speaking ‘truth to power’ against someone who wasn’t even in the race is just moronic. Plus he lost.

  47. 47
    TallDave says:

    I have to laugh when people give Clinton credit for things like the fiscal conservatism and welfare reform. I didn’t think Clinton was too bad a President overall, but he was clearly pushed into agreeing to those things by Republicans.

    Now, have the Republicans done a good job on fiscal conservatism since taking over the executive as well? Hell no. But Dems are not remotely close to adopting that as a serious platform. In fact, they’re so far from doing so that Republicans know they can screw the fiscal conservatives and essentially say “So what? What are you going to do, suckers? Vote Democrat? Bwahahahahahahahah!”

  48. 48
    Defense Guy says:

    TallDave

    If the Dems ever grow a pair on national security, which doesn’t seem likely, but is possible, then yes the people will eventually tell the GOP where to go. The GOP does need to get it’s sh*t together on this issue and on the borders, for starters.

  49. 49
    Another Jeff says:

    “OK, wittyguy, but at least i don’t think losing an election is something to crow about.”

    But, if you had Hackett getting 15 and the over, you won.

  50. 50
    Trent says:

    OK witty guy, but at least I don’t think losing an election is something to crow about.

    I’m not crowing about it, i’m stating my belief that the Democratic challengers in 2006 are going to base their campaigns more on the Paul Hackett model than the Washington Democratic Party model.

    So crow all you want about the lackluster performance of the Democratic Party now. The 2006 elections all come down to local elections, individual races and the candidates that run.

  51. 51
    srv says:

    TD,

    Yeah, Counterpunch and Zmaq are soooo mainstream.

    DG,

    See what a giver I am.

    No, you’re just a drone for the status quo, while wistfully talking about third parties. Just like your cousins on the other side. Good luck with that! Your grandkids will thank you.

  52. 52
    Trent says:

    But Dems are not remotely close to adopting that as a serious platform. In fact, they’re so far from doing so that Republicans know they can screw the fiscal conservatives and essentially say “So what? What are you going to do, suckers? Vote Democrat? Bwahahahahahahahah!”

    So you admit the Republicans are screwing the country over?

  53. 53
    TallDave says:

    Well, again, the Dems are nowhere close to conservative on borders either. It’s another issue where Republicans can safely triangulate because they know the “issue voters” aren’t going to leave them for a party that’s much farther from their view.

    Really, the biggest thing the GOP has going for it is the pervasive intellectual bankruptcy and occasional outright lunacy on the left today.

  54. 54
    Vlad says:

    “There are as hell are 50,000 dead heroes on that wall, and the liberals in our media made damned sure they died for nothing.”

    Yeah, and Germany could’ve pulled out WWI if they hadn’t been stabbed in the back by Jews, Socialists, and Liberals.

  55. 55
    TallDave says:

    Trent,

    Of course, all politics is a choice between the lesser of evils.

  56. 56
    TallDave says:

    Vlad,

    Germany lost numerous major battles in WW II. America lost none in Vietnam.

    We surrendered S Vietnam, without a fight, to a single NV armored column.

  57. 57
    Trent says:

    If the Dems ever grow a pair on national security, which doesn’t seem likely, but is possible, then yes the people will eventually tell the GOP where to go.

    Guess what, Schumer, Boxer, Pelosi and the rest of the Dems don’t need to figure out their National Security/fiscal responsibility stance for a bunch of strong, passionate Democratic candidates to get elected on a campaign of National Security/fiscal responsibility.

    I’m hoping that it’s a general anti-establishment movement that will pervade most of the races. Something that no Republican candidate is going to be able portray, because that would entail slighting their Party that’s in power.

    Democrats in general are becoming really concerned with fiscal responsibility and national security. Don’t think many won’t take up the cause.

  58. 58
    Defense Guy says:

    I’m not crowing about it, i’m stating my belief that the Democratic challengers in 2006 are going to base their campaigns more on the Paul Hackett model than the Washington Democratic Party model.

    Then they will most likely lose. It does seem like the path that Dean wants to take you down, which makes me wonder how Rove implanted the controls in the man’s skull.

    Remember the GOP going after Hillary when Bill was running?
    Whoever was handing out the advice on that one deserved the award for ‘all time best in show’ for the stupid party. I thought, breifly that Bush was going to repeat that mistake with Theresa.

  59. 59
    Accountability is a dirty word says:

    The ideal result would be a Democratic house takeover by 1 or 2 seat majority and a slimming of the Repubs Senate lead by a few seats. This gridlock is the only way out of this budget mess because when the committee power sits in different parties the fights begin about the pork and in the end less pork is produced.

  60. 60
    Trent says:

    Then they will most likely lose.

    Why?

  61. 61
    Defense Guy says:

    Guess what, Schumer, Boxer, Pelosi and the rest of the Dems don’t need to figure out their National Security/fiscal responsibility stance for a bunch of strong, passionate Democratic candidates to get elected on a campaign of National Security/fiscal responsibility.

    Well there is your problem right there. These folks are the crazy wing of your party and are NOT appealing to anyone who doesn’t already fully buy into their message. The Dems simply do not have the numbers to rely on the uber crazy liberal wing to carry them.

    Remember, this is my opinion only, and in the end politics is a hard game to try to nail down. So you may be right, and I may be wrong. I think 2006 will be an interesting election.

  62. 62
    Vlad says:

    Dave, you really ought to read some of the things T.E. Lawrence wrote about the nature of an insurgency. The successful insurgent doesn’t win by fighting battles; he doesn’t need to, when a technologically superior enemy creates through its very nature all the soft targets of opportunity an insurgent could ever need.

    The only way to successfully defeat insurgents is to make their presence unacceptable to the native population, depriving them of their base of operations. Do you have any evidence at all that we would’ve been successful in that area?

  63. 63
    srv says:

    Accountability,

    One option. How about McCain running and his 13 buddies all declaring themselves to him and b*tch-slapping both parties around for the next decade?

  64. 64
    TallDave says:

    You have to remember, by the end of the Vietnam conflict, the prevailing view among the elites (sold to Americans by the anti-war movement their sympthetic, well-meaning liberals in the media) was that American arms themselves were the major problem in the country, not totalitarians in the North bent on conquest of the South. Remember John Kerry’s testimony? “I am not sure that what we offer the Vietnamese peasant is any better than what the communists offer.” Before the fall of the Berlin Wall, that was not an extreme view; indeed, most academics probably agreed. And General Giap knew that was how to defeat America: via Lenin’s “certain useful idiots in the West.”

  65. 65
    Defense Guy says:

    Why?

    Because its a popularity contest and the one who seems like the most solid, honorable, moral human being that cares deeply about the needs of the voters will almost always be the one that wins. Unless they are already the incumbent, then it’s all about the pork.

    If you act like a crazy person and start shouting about people (like Bush) who are not even running against you, it stands a great chance of backfiring.

    Again, my take on it only.

  66. 66
    Trent says:

    on the uber crazy liberal wing to carry them.

    It’s fun (and easy!) demonizing people, but they’re hardly the crazy wing of the party. Why, because they’re pro-choice??? Because they opposed Rice for State and Gonzales for Justice? C’mon…

    Meanwhile, on the other side of the aisle, you have rampant corruption, cronyism and abuse of power. And that doesn’t even touch the nutjob religious wingbats.

    This is how I see: Republicans were kept from controlling Congress for decades for a reason. These past 5 years might end up reaffirming the country’s conviction that Republicans can’t be trusted with legislative power, because look at what a mess they’ve made!

  67. 67
    ppGaz says:

    Go read Giap’s memoirs, then Counterpunch and Zmag, then explain to me which part of that isn’t 100% true.

    There are as hell are 50,000 dead heroes on that wall, and the liberals in our media made damned sure they died for nothing. Had we simply continued arming the S Vietnamese and providing air support rather than leaving them defenseless, they’d still be as free as S Korea. Instead we had boat people, re-education camps, hundreds of thousands massacred, and tens of millions sentenced to life in a Communist dictatorship.

    That’s all your opinion, and I don’t share it in any way whatever.

    I didn’t believe it in 1966, or in 1976, or in 1986, or in 1996, and I don’t believe it now.

    What “they died for” is not up to “the media”. It is not up to you, or me, either. You don’t own that issue, and you don’t get to announce what it meant then, or means now. I know people whose names are on the wall, and I know their families, and I would not presume to tell them what it means or what they ought to think about it. And I am ashamed of having to share a country with people like you who apparently think you have that prerogative.

    I don’t need you to tell me what happened, and I don’t need you to tell me what it means, or what relevance it has to current affairs, either.

  68. 68
    TallDave says:

    The only way to successfully defeat insurgents is to make their presence unacceptable to the native population, depriving them of their base of operations. Do you have any evidence at all that we would’ve been successful in that area?

    Yes, there’s quite a lot of evidence of that in polling and just last week in Tal Afar, where residents were clamoring for Iraqi/US forces to liberate them. In fact, wihtout any help from us the Iraqi insurgents have done a great job painting themselves as murderers and thugs who offer nothing but more murder and thuggery to Iraqis; attacks like the ones today just contnue to reinforce that image. This is a very unpopular insurgency.

  69. 69
    Trent says:

    Because its a popularity contest and the one who seems like the most solid, honorable, moral human being that cares deeply about the needs of the voters will almost always be the one that wins.

    The Republicans in power all fall well short of this description. Whatcha think the odds are of finding new candidates who fit in the party structure and fit this model?

    If you act like a crazy person and start shouting about people (like Bush) who are not even running against you, it stands a great chance of backfiring.

    Unless 62% of the electorate has a problem with the direction that PResident Bush is taking the country. In that case, they might view someone that is railing against a man who isn’t even in the race as someone who can help put the country back on track.

  70. 70
    TallDave says:

    ppGaz,

    Their deaths ended up accomplishing nothing, because we allowed the Communists to conquer the country. That’s a fact, not an opinion.

    What “they died for” is not up to “the media”
    It is when the media causes us to lose the war.

  71. 71
    Vlad says:

    Your last post exactly proves my point, Dave.

    According to Lawrence, the greater the technological advantage held by an occupying power, the greater the difficulty they will have in fighting an insurgent army, because greater tech demands greater infrastructure. The superior quality of American arms, to a great extent, WAS the problem.

    Kerry’s testimony, to a great extent, is also right on target. To defeat an insurgency, you have to convince the silent majority that they’re better off with you than with the rebels, and for a variety of reasons we did a pretty piss-poor job of that. Kerry might have been wrong about whether our future was better than the insurgents’ future, but he was definitely right that we had failed to make a good case for ourselves.

  72. 72
    tBone says:

    That kind of crap will stimulate the base like no ones business, but it will turn off everyone else. There are other reasons why he did so well, but his speaking ‘truth to power’ against someone who wasn’t even in the race is just moronic. Plus he lost.

    I wasn’t talking about his message, really – more the way he delivered it. I was just glad to see a Democrat stand up and act like he had a pair, without a bunch of mealy-mouthed equivocation or fake “apologies” when he pissed someone off. I think that’s a lot more attractive to Joe Q. Public than a candidate who gets lost in a morass of Kerrey-esque nuance or Clinton-esque “triangulation.”

    Also, speaking ‘truth to power’ against someone who isn’t even in the race may be moronic, but it certainly worked for the Republicans in ’94.

  73. 73
    ppGaz says:

    Oh, Dave, in the heat of wanting you out of my country, I overlooked this:

    I said:

    There is one and only one reason for America to fight a war: To protect the lives and land of Americans from a proximate threat. Wars are not to be fought for “principles”, to feed greed for power, to prove a point, to send a message, to support some sociopathic concept of “honor.”

    .. and you said:

    Go read Giap’s memoirs, then Counterpunch and Zmag

    Tell me, Dave. Since when does Giap have anything to say to any American about when and why this country should go to war?

    In other words, you didn’t pay the slightest attention to what I said. Why the fuck should I pay any attention to anything you say?

  74. 74
    Vlad says:

    “This is a very unpopular insurgency.”

    Which is a great point, except for the fact that we’re talking about Vietnam. Current Shiite opinion isn’t really relevant to things that were happening 35 years ago in Southeast Asia.

  75. 75
    capelza says:

    Tall Dave, YOU have to remember that the US stepped into the middle of a civil war in Vietnam, grwoing out of the decades long fight for independence from French colonial rule. …this country, it’s leaders on down, failed to understand that. To understnad the dynamics of the country and we failed because of it. Ho Chi Minh was at Versailles in 1919 asking for independence for his country. We only saw the Communism and not the other.

    The RVN did not care enough to fight it themselves and when we left, they folded…that is not to say there weren’t very brave South Vietnamese soldiers. And please, I know this from someone who was there, during the transistion. He spent nearly a year with these guys…my husband.

    It wasn’t the anti-wat left that changed this country’s mind about that war…it was years and years of slogging around for what? Nixon got elected in 1968 with “Peace with Honor”..and 4 years later, he did…again…

  76. 76
    ppGaz says:

    It is when the media causes us to lose the war.

    That’s your opinion, and as far as I am concerned, that opinion is about as nutty as a fruitcake, and as dishonest as it gets. The absurd assertion rests on the premise that the American people are not intelligent enough to judge the reality of the world, which is tantamount to saying that they are not equipped to govern themselves. I assert that they are, and are, and that you are wrong.

    I have no respect for your opinion in this matter, or for you. I consider it un-American and destructive.

  77. 77
    TallDave says:

    We didn’t lose Vietnam to the VC insurgents. Tet was their best shot, and it was a terrible defeat. We lost SV to NV regulars (who, ironically, promptly turned on and massacred the VC).

    To defeat an insurgency, you have to convince the silent majority that they’re better off with you than with the rebels, and for a variety of reasons we did a pretty piss-poor job of that

    I totally agree. We should have pushed much harder for democratic and other reforms in SV.

    According to Lawrence, the greater the technological advantage held by an occupying power, the greater the difficulty they will have in fighting an insurgent army, because greater tech demands greater infrastructure.

    I’m not sure I agree; a spear may require a lot less infrastructure but it can’t scratch a tank. Anyway, it doesn’t apply here any longer, because this isn’t really an occupation of foreigners-vs.-natives anymore. The Iraqi Army has all the same advantages and technology as the insurgents.

  78. 78
    Trent says:

    It is when the media causes us to lose the war.

    It’s never the politicians that get us into wars that we never should have been in, is it?

  79. 79
    TallDave says:

    That’s your opinion, and as far as I am concerned, that opinion is about as nutty as a fruitcake,
    OK, you explain that to General Giap, he seems to feel differently. And he won the war, so I’m going to take his opinion over yours.

    The absurd assertion rests on the premise that the American people are not intelligent enough to judge the reality of the world,
    No, it rests on well-established principles of controlling the dissemination of information. Look up Walter Duranty sometime.

  80. 80
    TallDave says:

    It’s never the politicians that get us into wars that we never should have been in, is it?

    You’ll have to ask JFK and LBJ about that. Personally, I thought it was a noble effort to help stop the spread of Communism.

  81. 81
    TallDave says:

    To understnad the dynamics of the country and we failed because of it.

    No, we failed because the NV continued to be supported militarily by Communists, while we stopped supporting the SV militarily.

    Yes, I’m familiar with the whole “civil war” argument. By 1975, it certainly didn’t apply anymore. By then it was a war between totalitarianism and freedom, though as I’ve said we should have done more in SV to make that delineation sharper.

    Sadly, totalitarianism won that round.

  82. 82
    Defense Guy says:

    Trent and tBone.

    Just calling it as I see it. We can, if we are still around these parts. Do the postmortems on the 2006 elections and see what is what. The names that you listed Trent, would never win if they were not running in the districts they are in. So the locations are something to consider as well.

    Oh, and say what you will about Clinton, but the man did appeal to the middle enough to win 2 elections. Just please don’t think it was because of Carville and Bagala. Or do, and keep handing the Republicans elections in those areas that are contested.

  83. 83
    srv says:

    Still all fighting over Vietnam.

    We got drawn into Vietnam having paid no attention to what had happened to the French there, made it into a global thing (when it was just as much a civil war), went overboard on a false justification (Tonkin), and proceded w/o a real plan or understanding.

    Our civilian and military leadership consistently lied to and mislead the public. The media ate it up and was a good lap dog.

    Then the bodies kept coming home. But the light was just around the corner! Eventually, reality set in, and Tet provided a tipping (psychological, if you wish), for people to decide they really didn’t want their kids to die for something they didn’t see an end to.

    I’m sure if we’d just stayed the course, Hanoi would have capitulated and democracy would have flourished. It was just all the MSM’s fault, as they do all the heavy thinking for the public…

    Well, if you don’t get insurgencies then, you don’t get them now.

    Which is really more likely:
    1) The insurgency is in their last throes
    2) The insurgency will last 10 more years

    If you aren’t assuming #2, I predict you’re going to be disappointed alot.

  84. 84
    ppGaz says:

    No, it rests on well-established principles of controlling the dissemination of information

    Right, Dave. Any nutty idea you can come up with that takes away from the ultimate power, and responsbility, of the people, please don’t hesitate to float it out there.

    The people ultimately decide, Dave. Right, or wrong.

    You hang around a party that apparently thinks nothing of declaring half the people in your own country to be your enemy. Excuse us if we don’t carry you off the field on our shoulders for doing it.

    I know people who lost limbs, and in some cases, sons, in Vietnam, Dave, who would literally spit on you for saying the things you say.

    Which does not make you wrong, of course. What it makes you is an arrogant asshole who thinks he can’t possibly be wrong. Which is my point. You don’t own the issue, Dave.

  85. 85
    Vlad says:

    “I’m not sure I agree; a spear may require a lot less infrastructure but it can’t scratch a tank.”

    Ah, but where there are tanks, there are also machine shops and fuel dumps, plus air traffic to bring in replacement parts.

    A guy with a stick, you’ve got to attack him face-to-face or do nothing. A guy with a tank, you stab his pencil-pushing supply sergeant with your stick, and then you blow up all his diesel.

    “I totally agree. We should have pushed much harder for democratic and other reforms in SV.”

    Which makes me confused about your earlier stance on the war. Without a successful sale of the proposed new order to the Vietnamese people, we could’ve provided arms and air support until the cows came home, and it wouldn’t have changed a thing. It was an un-winnable proposition, and one that can’t be laid at the feet of media types.

  86. 86
    tBone says:

    Oh, and say what you will about Clinton, but the man did appeal to the middle enough to win 2 elections. Just please don’t think it was because of Carville and Bagala.

    Not me – I’m surprised that the guy managed to win with those two anchors on his boat. :)

  87. 87
    Defense Guy says:

    I’ve stayed out of the vietnam discussion, because frankly what I do know is outweighed by what I don’t. I have a couple of questions that I wonder if someone might answer.

    1) Did we fight much in the North on the ground at any point in the war? If so, why?
    2) Did we ever attempt to topple the government or city of Hanoi?
    3) Why did we allow the North to use Cambodia as a safe zone to move troops and into the south?
    4) Is it true that we really didn’t even do much bombing in the North until Nixon was president?

    I realize that the tactics and reasons shifted depending on which of the 3 men was in charge, so any inclusion of that would be most welcome. Thanks in advance.

  88. 88
    Defense Guy says:

    Number 1 part 2 should read: If not, why not? PIMF

  89. 89
    tBone says:

    I’ve stayed out of the vietnam discussion, because frankly what I do know is outweighed by what I don’t.

    Staying silent because you don’t know something? Admitting you don’t know something? You have forgotten the laws of the blogosphere, my son.

  90. 90
    Veeshir says:

    Quoting Bill Maher? And with this?

    On your watch, we’ve lost almost all of our allies, the surplus, four airliners, two trade centers, a piece of the Pentagon and the City of New Orleans.

    That’s great political commentary. Ummm, except if you take out “New Orleans”, that piece of conventional wisdom has lost every election since 2002. Now, as we discover that the problems in NO came from the NOPD letting order break down, the mayor not implementing the plan they had, the governor hesitating for too long and the local, state and federal politicians all diverting money from the levees to other pork-barrel projects, adding “New Orleans!” to the scream, errr, argument, won’t make it any better. Especially when the vast majority of those politicians are either independents or Democrats.

    As a further comment, notice that he didn’t mention any actual people who had died in those mistakes. Thereby showing that he doesn’t really care at all about any of that, he only cares for power for his side.
    The analysts keep saying “Well Jim, he’s trying to position himself to the right for the soccer mom demographic” while talking about Dem politicians (cough*Hillary*cough). For the GOP in general, and Bush in particular, you have a pretty good idea of where they/he stand/s.
    Especially on the one issue that dominates, the War on (Some) Terror. The Dems aren’t trusted on defense.
    People have mentioned the balanced budget from the 90s, they were largely helped by the huge cuts in defense spending. Defense spending is the largest item in the budget.

    So yeah, keep on telling America they were stupid to vote for Bush. Twice. That’ll work. Especially now that Bush isn’t running for office.
    We need a move-on.com for BDS sufferers.

  91. 91
    Another Jeff says:

    Admitting you don’t know something? You have forgotten the laws of the blogosphere, my son.”

    You’re not kidding. Who let that guy in?

  92. 92
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    TallDave,

    I’m normally happy to lurk in the shadows during the senseless flamewar debates on this site, but something you said was sufficiently inaccurate that I feel compelled to refute it. The fact that no one else has done so yet further impels me. The following statement is demonstrably factually inaccurate:

    Germany lost numerous major battles in WW II. America lost none in Vietnam.

    Evidently, you forget the 101st Airborne’s humiliating retreat from Firebase Ripcord: http://www.screamingeaglesthro.....id207.html

    A case could be made that this withdrawal came about as a result of antiwar sentiments on the homefront; but a case could also be made that had the position been reinforced, it would have become an American version of Dien Bien Phu. Hindsighted historical masturbations notwithstanding, it seems very clear that America did, in fact, lose a battle in Vietnam. Although the battle is not very well-known in America, occurring as it did more or less contemporaneously with the invasion of Cambodia.

    I’m sorry to intervene. As I said, I normally enjoy lurking and reading these verbal sparrings from afar. But the particular factual inaccuracy you spouted is sufficiently annoying that I spoke up to address it. Apologies to myself and my fellow lurkers for spoiling the untouched natural sanctity of this flamewar. I’ll shut up now, and enjoy my spectator seat in an argument about why my father should have died before I was conceived so that the South Vietnamese could enjoy the freedom of a Catholic-dominated junta backed by American firepower on an indefinite basis. It’s an interesting argument, to say the least. Apologies again for the interruption.

  93. 93
    Rick says:

    Sigh…you mean the frightful, talibanic Hammer can’t even see that obscene-profit-making Big Bird and the totality of public broadcasting can be kicked out of the federal nest? Say it isn’t so.

    Of course, Instapundit reader Matthew Cook in “Another Update” may be onto something.

    COrdially..

  94. 94
    srv says:

    DG,

    IMO:

    #1 – I don’t think so. Can’t remember any.

    #2 – no. If we had invaded the north, the Chinese would have done the same thing they did in Korea.

    #3 – we did, and then we didn’t. We bombed the crap out of Cambodia eventually, and partnered with saints like Pol Pot. Eventually, that led to destabilization, chaos, and Pol Pot’s regime of slaughter. And now Noonan blames Mark Felt for all that.

    #4 – Nixon escalated. Instead of A-6’s and F-4’s, we started elephant walking B-52’s up. It brought Hanoi around, at least enough that they figured waiting us out might be a better strategy.

  95. 95
    ppGaz says:

    Especially on the one issue that dominates, the War on (Some) Terror.

    A completely bullshit issue, and assertion.

    Allow me to demonstrate. I assign to you the task of going out and interviewing 20 people, and asking them these questions:

    1) What is a “war on terror?” Please describe such a war, and if possible, point to examples from history.

    2) How is a “war on terror” won? Give examples of wars on terror that have been won, and show how those examples are relevant to the current “war on terror.”

    For extra credit, and grins, ask the people who hang around here and comment the same questions.

    An article on this subject in NYT Magazine says, among many other things, on subject of Al Qaeda:

    “The movement has now degenerated into something like the Internet. Spontaneous groups of friends, as in Madrid and Casablanca, who have few links to any central leadership, are generating sometimes very dangerous terrorist operations, notwithstanding their frequent errors and poor training.”

    Under this view, Al Qaeda, in the form we knew it, has been subsumed into the broader, more diffuse political world of radical Salafi politics. “The network is now self-organized from the bottom up and is very decentralized,” Sageman wrote. “With local initiative and flexibility, it’s very robust.”

    We have entered the era of the amateurs. Those who attacked the London Underground – whether or not they had any contact with Al Qaeda – manufactured their crude bombs from common chemicals (including hydrogen peroxide, bleach and drain cleaner), making them in plastic food containers, toting them to Luton Station in coolers and detonating them with cellphone alarms. One click on the Internet and you can pull up a Web site offering a recipe – or, for that matter, one showing you how to make a suicide vest from commonly found items, including a video download demonstrating how to use the device: “There is a possibility that the two seats on his right and his left might not be hit with the shrapnel,” the unseen narrator tells the viewer. Not to worry, however: “The explosion will surely kill the passengers in those seats.”

    During the four years since the attacks of 9/11, while terrorism worldwide has flourished, we have seen no second attack on the United States. This may be owed to the damage done Al Qaeda. Or perhaps planning and preparation for such an attack is going on now. When it comes to the United States itself, the terrorists have their own “second-novel problem” – how do you top the first production? More likely, though, the next attack, when it comes, will originate not in the minds of veteran Qaeda planners but from this new wave of amateurs: viral Al Qaeda, political sympathizers who nourish themselves on Salafi rhetoric and bin Laden speeches and draw what training they require from their computer screens. Very little investment and preparation can bring huge rewards. The possibilities are endless, and terrifyingly simple: rucksacks containing crude homemade bombs placed in McDonald’s – one, say, in Times Square and one on Wilshire Boulevard, 3,000 miles away, exploded simultaneously by cellphone. The effort is small, the potential impact overwhelming.

    Attacks staged by amateurs with little or no connection to terrorist networks, and thus no visible trail to follow, are nearly impossible to prevent, even for the United States, with all of its power.

    The author also says this:

    “Declaring war on ‘terror,”‘ as one military strategist later remarked to me, “is like declaring war on air power.” It didn’t matter; apocalypse, retribution, redemption were in the air, and the grandeur of the goal must be commensurate with the enormity of the crime. Within days of the attacks, President Bush had launched a “global war on terror.”

    Today marks four years of war. Four years after the attack on Pearl Harbor, U.S. troops ruled unchallenged in Japan and Germany. During those 48 months, Americans created an unmatched machine of war and decisively defeated two great enemies.

    How are we to judge the global war on terror four years on? In this war, the president had warned, “Americans should not expect one battle but a lengthy campaign.” We could expect no “surrender ceremony on a deck of a battleship,” and indeed, apart from the president’s abortive attempt on the U.S.S. Lincoln to declare victory in Iraq, there has been none. Failing such rituals of capitulation, by what “metric” – as the generals say – can we measure the progress of the global war on terror?

    Four years after the collapse of the towers, evil is still with us and so is terrorism.

    The Forever War

    Discuss. Knowing what we know now, how does one refrain from simply slapping upside the head anyone foolish enough to start talking glibly about a “war on terror?”

    Slapping upside the head … and that includes the ridiculous President of the United States.

  96. 96
    jg says:

    Fog of War, go rent it. Its a documentary/interview with McNamara. I’ll take his view of why we went to Vietnam, what we expected from it and why we failed to achieve it over anything TallDave has to say.

  97. 97
    capelza says:

    Went over to Redstate and read your (John Cole) piece..very good, I thought.

    A couple of interesting comments over there…saying that this was basically Delay’s “cunning plan” to make the Dems speak up about cutting the budget more.

    I don’t think it is so cunning, really, but I’m curious to see what the resident conservatives think of this particular reading of his statements.

  98. 98
    Otto Man says:

    I have to laugh when people give Clinton credit for things like the fiscal conservatism and welfare reform. I didn’t think Clinton was too bad a President overall, but he was clearly pushed into agreeing to those things by Republicans.

    You mean his very first budget, which made deficit reduction a centerpiece of his economic plan? The plan every single Republican in Congress voted against? The one the GOP predicted would lead to financial anarchy and the next depression?

    Yeah, he was really following the GOP lead there.

  99. 99
    Otto Man says:

    What “they died for” is not up to “the media”

    It is when the media causes us to lose the war.

    I’m speechless here. Do you really believe Walter Cronkite was the cause of America’s failure in Vietnam?

  100. 100
    Otto Man says:

    It’s never the politicians that get us into wars that we never should have been in, is it?

    You’ll have to ask JFK and LBJ about that.

    Wait. But how was the media to blame for that? Cronkite convinced them to go in?

  101. 101
    Andrei says:

    “I’ll shut up now, and enjoy my spectator seat in an argument about why my father should have died before I was conceived so that the South Vietnamese could enjoy the freedom of a Catholic-dominated junta backed by American firepower on an indefinite basis. It’s an interesting argument, to say the least. Apologies again for the interruption.”

    SIZZLE.

  102. 102
    ppGaz says:

    “Iraq tonight is on the brink of civil war”

    –Lou Dobbs, CNN 9/14/05 6:36 pm EDT

    Well, let’s see, isn’t it about time for the Iraq war “World Better Off Without Saddam At Any Cost” brigade to step up and tell us how this “war” and the public support for it are collapsing because of Walter Cronkite?

  103. 103
    jg says:

    Its simple. If the dastardly liberal media wasn’t telling us bad news about the world we would all give our undivided support to Bush and his plans and his war and we would have caught Osama and the Taliban would not be coming back and Saddam would have coughed up his wmd and Iraq would have a functioning government based on the US Constitution.

  104. 104
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    Thank you, Andrei.

    And before I utterly shut up, thank you also, ppGAZ. This member of the Silent Majority supports you both. Along with the other liberals, of course.

    On that note, I’ll be quiet now. Please pretend these posts never happened. I’m a lurker, and proud of it.

  105. 105
    ppGaz says:

    I’ll be quiet now. Please pretend these posts never happened.

    I thought you did a fine job. Don’t hide your light under a bushel.

  106. 106
    Defense Guy says:

    I’ll shut up now, and enjoy my spectator seat in an argument about why my father should have died before I was conceived so that the South Vietnamese could enjoy the freedom of a Catholic-dominated junta backed by American firepower on an indefinite basis.

    Small nit, I think you meant born. I’m sorry for your loss.

    As to the silent majority. It’s not true, liberals are actually a rather small minority in this country. No lie. Of course, who really even knows what that word means anymore.

  107. 107
    rayabacus says:

    Well, I’ve got to put my .02 in. I am a ‘Nam vet (68-69) Quang Tri Province during the Tet offensive. I think the reason we walked out of that war was we simply did not prosecute it as a war. That mistake put a lot of those 58,000 names on that wall. Whatever the reason we were there, and I thought JFK made it clear why were there, we did not “fight to win”.

    We fought to prop up a corrupt government. Although I whole heartedly support the Iraq invasion, I feel that we are sinking into the same frame of mind. We are not fighting the war with the intensity that one needs when one decides to go to war. I know this will bring heaps of dung on my head but, “We are simply not brutal enough about prosecuting war.”

  108. 108
    Andrei says:

    “It’s not true, liberals are actually a rather small minority in this country.”

    Is that why Bush lost the popular majority of votes in 2000 and only won with a 1%-2% margin in 2004?

    Wonders never cease. It’s utterly amazing how some 48% to 49% of our country is continuously shunned and pushed aside due to their “minority” status in political debates these days. Just flabbergasting.

  109. 109
    Andrei says:

    “We are not fighting the war with the intensity that one needs when one decides to go to war.”

    /agreed.

    Like Sun Tzu was apt to say… you win wars with overwhleming force.

    Our execution of the invasion aspect of the Iraq war used enough force obviously especially considering our technical advancements in fighting wars, but the occupation was treated as not part of the war. This clearly seems to be a vital aspect of the war itself due to the on-going issue with insurgents, and seems to require an overwhleming occupation to secure the borders, end the suicide bombing, return basic services like electricty and water back to the cities and bring law and order to the country.

    While no one wants to see a draft, if we as a country are serious about ending this war, we need to get more people in there and get the job done with overwhleming force. And if we can’t get enough volunteers, then yes that means a draft is required.

    If the American public cannot stomach a draft, it would tell us a lot about whether we are ready to fight the “War on Terrorism” itself. No more doing this kind of stuff half-assed. It’s time for us as a country to put up or shut up with regards to waging wars like Iraq.

  110. 110
    jg says:

    “We are simply not brutal enough about prosecuting war.”

    I agree. We couldn’t even fly our flag.

  111. 111
    ppGaz says:

    we need to get more people in there and get the job done with overwhleming force.

    Uh, sure. What exactly is “the job”, and how does “overwhelming force” “get it done?” How will you measure its done-ness?

    Don’t feel bad about not having an answer on the tip of your tongue, because apparently our government has no idea either.

    It’s hard for me to believe that in Sept 2005, anyone is making such a claim, but apparently you are, so go for it. Explain it. Use both sides of the paper if you need to.

    BTW, several very bright generals on Meet the Press two weeks ago couldn’t answer this question, so I presume that if you know the answer, you’ll soon be running the Pentagon.

  112. 112
    srv says:

    We must destroy the country in order to save it.

    Depending on what numbers you believe, 9-14% of the Vietnamese population died between 1966 and 1975 (not counting Cambodia, Laos or Thailand). Not enough?

    Let’s say we slaughter 10% of the Sunni’s in Iraq. Will that do it? 20%? Doesn’t matter? OK, but at least let’s call it a Crusade.

  113. 113
    Boronx says:

    Like Sun Tzu was apt to say… you win wars with overwhleming force.

    Sun Tzu ordered the ways to win by his preference, and overwhelming force is pretty close to the bottom. He said the best generals defeat their enemy without fighting.

    Even if battle is joined, the best generals have already laid the groundwork to ensure victory. It’s Osama, handed a major victory the moment Bush decided to invade Iraq, who is a good general by Sun Tzu’s standard. He’s also a great example of how much can be achieved without overwhelming force.

    Osama mis-calculated and was almost wiped out at Tora-Bora, but for the most part, Bush could hardly have conformed more perfectly to the response that Osama desired from him.

  114. 114
    Andrei says:

    Uh, sure. What exactly is “the job”, and how does “overwhelming force” “get it done?”

    While I appreciate the question, and it obvious the answer is that the adminisntration needs to set that expectation or get out, I’m of the opinion as a normal American citizen that the job is what I stated in my comment:

    * Secure the borders
    * End the suicide bombings
    * Return basic services like electricty and water back to the cities
    * Bring law and order to the country

    Obviously, the second bullet point is the most difficult to deal with, but it is nonetheless an issue that must be addressed. With these issues in place, I’d then add a final bullet:

    * Help the Iraqis draft a constitution that they can live with that also works for the U.S. (In the same way one considers how the Allies worked with Germany and Japan to rebuild their governments.)

    And if we had an overwhelming occupational force in place, you’d remind the Iraqi’s that we weren’t leaving until we got a constituion that we felt was worth our leaving. No compromises. They have to compromise with each other *and* make us happy before we get out.

    Now, having said all of that, it of course first requires a dramatic shift in thinking about Iraq to one of the more “overwhleming force” notions. Being very forceful and using that force if we aren’t getting what we want, while asking the American public that we have to put our full energy into it. If we are unwilling to use that force and get the job done, then it seems clear we need to leave before we make more of a mess of the situation.

  115. 115
    John S. says:

    It’s not true, liberals are actually a rather small minority in this country. No lie.

    Would it it be too much to ask for the source of such profundity?

  116. 116
    Andrei says:

    “He said the best generals defeat their enemy without fighting.”

    True enough. And its a sentiment I was calling for back when I first made waves about being against the war in 2003 on my own blog. But we are past that point, and since we chose to go to war, we have to execute on the war or end it right now. IMHO.

    I was always taught, and I think it’s the Sun Tzu model of fighting, that you first don’t get into a fight in a bar – you talk your way out of it. But the moment it becomes clear you can’t walk away from it, you kick the guy in the balls as the first strike. If that doesn’t take him down, a good swift kick across the face will knock him out.

    End of fight.

    Screw punching. Screw “honorable fighting.” If a fight gets into the punching phase, you’ve basically lost even if you’ve won due to the sheer amount of pain you will suffer.

  117. 117
    Andrei says:

    “Don’t feel bad about not having an answer on the tip of your tongue, because apparently our government has no idea either.”

    By the way ppGaz, this kind of sentiment is rather useless in the discussion. Why? Because it has a damned if you do, damned if you don’t quality to it, which leaves little room for real discussion on what options we do have moving forward.

    Notice I’ve been saying in my examples that we need to either do A or do B, but you are only commenting on A being fruitless and neglecting that I’ve even mention option B. If you mean that B is the only option, then fine, but please state that so as not to bring any discussion to a complete halt.

    In other words, are you for unconditional pull out of Iraq? Its hard for me to know 100% which is why I ask.

  118. 118
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    Small nit, I think you meant born. I’m sorry for your loss.

    No, I wrote that post very carefully. My Dad was in the 101st from 1969-1970, and I was conceived in 1977 (4th of July, Deerpark Tavern, Newark, DE, 19711, if my parents haven’t lied to me). No chance I could’ve been born in the immediate aftermath of the Vietnam war, which would’ve validated your point about inception.

    As to the silent majority. It’s not true, liberals are actually a rather small minority in this country. No lie. Of course, who really even knows what that word means anymore.

    I was referring to the Silent Majority on this site. Since the Vocal Majority on this site seems liberal, it seemed a safe guess to assume that the Silent Majority is also overwhelmingly liberal. This isn’t 1972 blue-collar America, here.

  119. 119
    ppGaz says:

    By the way ppGaz, this kind of sentiment is rather useless in the discussion. Why? Because it has a damned if you do, damned if you don’t quality to it, which leaves little room for real discussion on what options we do have moving forward.

    Well, several things:

    First of all, “sentiment” has nothing to do with it. You probably already know that but not everyone here will.

    It’s about facts, not sentiment.

    Second, I assume that you meant “overwhelming numbers” and not “overwhelming force” as in “kill all the bad people?”

    If you did mean numbers, then the question re-asks and re-answers itself: Where do you get all those troops, and since you can’t, then …. ? There aren’t going to be a lot more troops going to Iraq. If the numbers we have there now are not enough then not only is the game over, but it could have been predicted to be over a long time ago, and somebody should have stopped this idiotic experiment before it started. Oh wait, Colin Powell tried to, but failed.

    Last, am I for “unconditinal pull out?” Well, I’ve answered that question about umpteen times on these pages, and the answer is no, but I am coming to the conclusion that the only viable alternative may not be much better, namely, a phased withdrawal which protects our interests and more importantly protects our people there to the greatest possible extent before we let Iraq descend into whatever pit of ignominy it is destined for.

  120. 120
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    Well, I’ve got to put my .02 in. I am a ‘Nam vet (68-69) Quang Tri Province during the Tet offensive. I think the reason we walked out of that war was we simply did not prosecute it as a war. That mistake put a lot of those 58,000 names on that wall. Whatever the reason we were there, and I thought JFK made it clear why were there, we did not “fight to win”.

    We fought to prop up a corrupt government. Although I whole heartedly support the Iraq invasion, I feel that we are sinking into the same frame of mind. We are not fighting the war with the intensity that one needs when one decides to go to war. I know this will bring heaps of dung on my head but, “We are simply not brutal enough about prosecuting war.”

    I wholeheartedly agree with the latter half of this post. To paraphrase Saddam Hussein, “Yours is a society that cannot endure 10,000 casualties in one battle.” Those kinds of losses are much easier to sustain when your nation is led by a Stalinist tyrant. Sorry for quoting that murderous fucker, though. I’ve opposed the Iraq war from the get-go, but there’s no denying that we’re all a lot better off without him on the scene.

    As for the Vietnam war, my father ingrained in me from my earliest memory that we were there for no conceivable reason of sane foreign policy. We were there for the same reason we overthrew Mossadeq in Iran, because backing an indigenous nationalist regime at all costs would have meant opposition to our Cold War NATO allies on the subject of their moribund empires. (Matter of fact, if memory serves correctly, on August 2nd, 1945, when Ho Chi Minh announced the official secession from the French Empire, he quoted the Declaration of Independence in the independence speech. He was sure we’d support him if we only knew about his cause. It seems to me that we backed the wrong side in that war, for its entire thirty year course.) It was much easier to back Churchill and De Gaulle, and finance their insane rearguard imperialist actions at any cost- even at the cost of 58,000 American lives.

    Frankly, speaking as someone who wasn’t even alive during the war, I honestly have no idea why it was fought. Nations are not dominoes. Can we all agree on that now? What did John Kerry say about it? Something to the effect of, “How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?” Say what you will about the 2004 campaign, it seems apropos to me. Not that my opinion is worth a bucket of hamster semen, and not that John Kerry’s is or was worth much more; but still, there they are.

    I might add that in my opinion, the War in Iraq is an obvious grandchild of the old European Imperialist wars, but at some point we have to accept responsibility for our own insanity and stop finger-pointing at the Commies and the Brits.

  121. 121
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    I thought you did a fine job. Don’t hide your light under a bushel.

    Sorry to gush stupidly at you for a moment, but I’ve been lurking on this website since Terry Schiavo. This comment from you feels like a pat on the head from MLK or something. Thanks!

    Unfortunately, work prevents me from posting here on a regular basis. Keep fighting the good fight, though, this liberal will soon shut up again and stop bothering the Republicans like TallDave and John Cole Himself. That’s your job. But I’ll be reading it, rest assured.

  122. 122
    ppGaz says:

    “Yours is a society that cannot endure 10,000 casualties in one battle.”

    Well, that’s one reason why I said, upthread, that you fight a war for the right reason, not for principle or to prove a point or for a “foreign policy.” The WRONG REASONS are what keep a country from putting up with the worst of war.

    If this country were actually being attacked, 10,000 casualties in one battle would never stop us from fighting back and winning. When the war is right, the commitment is deep.

    What Vietnam and Iraq have in common is that these wars are not right. Simple as that.

  123. 123
    ppGaz says:

    This comment from you feels like a pat on the head from MLK

    Oh dear, I’m just an obscure poster on a minor blog, not Dr. King! I had the privilege to see and hear him in person, he’s a great hero of mine.

    Anyway, hope you stick around and chime in when you can.

  124. 124
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    Well, that’s one reason why I said, upthread, that you fight a war for the right reason, not for principle or to prove a point or for a “foreign policy.” The WRONG REASONS are what keep a country from putting up with the worst of war.

    If this country were actually being attacked, 10,000 casualties in one battle would never stop us from fighting back and winning. When the war is right, the commitment is deep.

    What Vietnam and Iraq have in common is that these wars are not right. Simple as that.

    Amen.

    I’m just grateful to God my brother didn’t have to kill in Iraq like my Dad did in Vietnam. He can go to God with a relatively pure conscience. I’m sure someone here will call me an asshole for feeling that way about it, but fuck them. My family’s been killing and dying for this country since 1917. Irish-American liberal Democrat war martyrs, blah blah blah, my geat-uncles are buried all over Europe. I’m the first male not to enlist. We’ve earned our right to some peace.

    I have nothing else to post here, barring countercommentary to some of my posts. Sorry again for bothering you folks.

  125. 125
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    Oh dear, I’m just an obscure poster on a minor blog, not Dr. King! I had the privilege to see and hear him in person, he’s a great hero of mine.

    Anyway, hope you stick around and chime in when you can.

    Too busy. Just please keep fighting the good fight for us all here, I try to fight it in other non-Internet forums. I want you to know that I appreciate what you do around here, even though I think John Cole wishes you were smitten unto death by lightning and scabies half the time.

  126. 126
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    “Great uncles”. Great uncles. My great uncles are the ones who died so prolifically. If I had any Geat uncles, presumably they were torn apart by Grendel in “Beowulf.”

    Sorry for the typo, those things annoy the living crap out of me.

  127. 127
    ppGaz says:

    I think John Cole wishes you were smitten unto death by lightning and scabies half the time.

    Lightning? Scabies? I laugh at them! Ha ha ha!

    [ thud ]

  128. 128
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    Lightning? Scabies? I laugh at them! Ha ha ha!

    [ thud ]

    Hubris: the pride that cometh before the fall.

    Christ, that’s fucking funny.

  129. 129
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    Oh dear, I’m just an obscure poster on a minor blog, not Dr. King! I had the privilege to see and hear him in person, he’s a great hero of mine.

    Anyway, hope you stick around and chime in when you can.

    BTW, just for my own edification and not for anything pertaining to this blog, what was he like? The only famous people I’ve “met” have been Bill Clinton, Al Gore, and (especially) Joe Biden.

    Sorry, Mr. Cole, for continuing to prattle. I’ll shut up now.

  130. 130
    Andrei says:

    Second, I assume that you meant “overwhelming numbers” and not “overwhelming force” as in “kill all the bad people?”

    Correct. I did mean it more in that context. Overwhleming numbers to handle the situation in the occupation. I should have spoken for clearly.

    If you did mean numbers, then the question re-asks and re-answers itself: Where do you get all those troops, and since you can’t, then …. ?

    You are assuming the “can’t” part and while I largely agree, it’s not a foregone conclusion imho. But the point of my train of thought is that one has to take a harder line in their thinking when it comes to engaging in war. If the country cannot, then yes, I’m in full agreement with where you are coming from. At the same, I’m not entirely of the opinion this country wouldn’t get the numbers if asked properly for them.

    But as you and I would probably agree, that would require leadership.

  131. 131
    ppGaz says:

    But as you and I would probably agree, that would require leadership.

    Sad but true, what we have now is more self-justification than leadership. I’m afraid any heroic measures that are not seen as immediately and profoundly necessary by the people will be non-doable under this president. He had a chance, after 9-11, to ask for anything and get it. That opportunity has been squandered on an ill-concieved war, and on a party-first agenda that has his ability to govern all tied up in knots.

    It’s called snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

  132. 132
    Defense Guy says:

    …why my father should have died before I was conceived…

    Should have but didn’t? Because the other meaning is, well, impossible unless it was in vitro or something.

  133. 133
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    Should have but didn’t? Because the other meaning is, well, impossible unless it was in vitro or something.

    Do I really have to spell this out for you? Okay, although it seemed fairly straightforward to me.

    IF my Dad had died in Vietnam, as a conscript fighting in 1971, or 1973, or 1978, or however the fuck long you wanted him fighting there, he wouldn’t have had a chance to meet my Mom, and fuck her in a room that he rented out above a bar-room above where Edgar Allen Poe used to hang out on his opium binges. Hence, I wouldn’t have been conceived, hence I wouldn’t have been born, hence I wouldn’t have grown up and turned into this horrendous Irish-American drunkard Delaware liberal asking you these crazy questions about my conceptions and my origin.

    My father is alive, albeit barely. Alcoholic motherfucker child-beater that he is, thank you, fellow patriot assholes who made him hit us kids. He lives in Hunterdon County, NJ, where he and his Irish wife qualify as the only liberals within a 75-mile radius. IF he had been asked to serve a longer tour in Nam, I would’ve died in a pre-in-utero phase of my existence. He saw some hairy shit, to use the vernacular. Presumably, a longer American presence in Vietnam would’ve required longer tours on the part of Vietnam conscripts. Or are you arguing that we could’ve gotten by with tours of similar lengths? If so, I myself could be a Vietnam War conscript, like my father before me. I wouldn’t have died before I was conceived, but I would have had a chance to die before I had a chance to conceive my father’s grandkids.

    Frankly, I’m still confused as to what your point is. If you have one, other than trying to make me look like a jackass while I argue family history.

  134. 134
    UNCoRRELATED says:

    Fiscal Restraint

    Remember when Republicans were the party of fiscal restraint? Nope, I don’t either.

  135. 135
    Defense Guy says:

    I take it back, I’m not sorry for your loss, since you didn’t lose anything. I read it that you did, which I guess should have been as obvious to you as your post should have been to me.

    I will refrain from addressing you in the future.

  136. 136
    Defense Guy says:

    Oh and go fuck yourself you uptight crazy asshole.

  137. 137
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    I take it back, I’m not sorry for your loss, since you didn’t lose anything. I read it that you did, which I guess should have been as obvious to you as your post should have been to me.

    I will refrain from addressing you in the future.

    No problem, Vet.

    Oh and go fuck yourself you uptight crazy asshole.

    No problem, Mr. Cannot Read. I lost more than you could ever comprehend, but thanks for trying.

    Christ, you Republicans aren’t worth the jizz that conceived you. You’re about as intelligent as jizz, too.

  138. 138
    ppGaz says:

    I will refrain from addressing you in the future.

    Sure, give the new person the lucky break. What about the rest of us long-suffering victims?

  139. 139
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    Sure, give the new person the lucky break. What about the rest of us long-suffering victims?

    Frankly, ppGaz, your sense of humor is too well-developed for the people around here. (Except for your opinion vis-a-vis gangsta rap. Chill the fuck out, man. Give it a shot. You get my goat when you denigrate that entire genre.)

    Defense Guy is like a Darrel on painkillers. Nothing you throw at him can stop him. Lurking in silence, I recognized this. Why can’t you see this while you duke it out with him in broad daylight?

    Some people are worth discussing issues with. For everyone else, there’s DG and Stormy70 and Mac Buckets and Darrel. I thought that was well-understood.

  140. 140
    Narvy says:

    The really scary thing is everyone knows Dems would be worse.

    The same Dems who had a budget surplus under Clinton? Or are there some other Dems that are worse the current big spenders?

  141. 141
    Narvy says:

    As a further comment, notice that he didn’t mention any actual people who had died in those mistakes. Thereby showing that he doesn’t really care at all about any of that, he only cares for power for his side.

    Ah, logic, it’s wonderful.

  142. 142
    Boronx says:

    Let’s go with the barfight analogy. Somebody’s nuts did get kicked, Americas, but the guy who did it was too puny to end things, and by the time America caught his breath, he’d disappeared, so we took the wimpiest guy we hated out back and proceeded to beat the shit out of him.

    For some reason he won’t stop fighting, and it’s really annoying and it’s starting to hurt a bit, and the guys in the bar who sort of liked us are beginning to think we’re an asshole and the guys who hate us notice we can’t take care of this little punk and are starting to admire the guy that kicked us in the first place.

    This is where the analogy starts to break down, since it’s costing America huge chunks of money to keep beating this dork.

    Which was the nutkicker’s plan.

  143. 143
    Narvy says:

    menemenetekelupharsin

    I am late to this thread, unable to read it until late tonight, which must be evident from my preceding belated and trivial cracks above. Everything worth saying, and a whole lot not worth saying, has been said, but since no one else picked up on this, I have to ask: Is your choice of screen name an opinion about the state of the nation and our inability to comprehend the consequences of what we’re doing both domestically and internationally?

  144. 144
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    menemenetekelupharsin –
    I am late to this thread, unable to read it until late tonight, which must be evident from my preceding belated and trivial cracks above. Everything worth saying, and a whole lot not worth saying, has been said, but since no one else picked up on this, I have to ask: Is your choice of screen name an opinion about the state of the nation and our inability to comprehend the consequences of what we’re doing both domestically and internationally?

    Hey, man. (I’m assuming you’re a man, anyway. Sorry if I’m wrong.) I know your work, you’re pretty smart. You know your Old Testament, too. I continue to be impressed. You pretty much nailed it.

    And now, unless TallDave or Defense Jizz or anyone else has anything interesting to say about me or my family, I’m shutting the fuck up for good. I thank you for your time. Sorry to keep posting long after I promised.

  145. 145
    Krista says:

    menemenetekelupharsin –

    Please keep posting when you can. Your voice is damned refreshing, and you have a very unique perspective on things. I’m just sorry that you had to gain that perspective via pain…although that’s usually how it goes, isn’t it?

    And the comment about whether or not your father should have died before you were conceived — I thought it was pretty straightforward. But a lot of people here will analyze a post word for word, hoping to find something on which to pin their aggression.

  146. 146
    Krista says:

    …and then the subtler meaning of what is said gets bogged down.

    In other words, some people can’t see the forest for the trees.

  147. 147
    Steve S says:

    The Katrina cleanup is now no longer about the Gulf Coast. It’s about Bush’s legacy. After he screwed up, he wants to sweep that incompetence under the carpet by greasing the palms of a few building contractors.

    The Death of Fiscal Conservatism, indeed.

  148. 148
    Narvy says:

    Hey, man. (I’m assuming you’re a man, anyway. Sorry if I’m wrong.) I know your work, you’re pretty smart.

    Yeah, I’m a man. You should see my muscular build and my great, bulging…intellect.

    I am gratified beyond words to receive a compliment like that from someone who writes so thoughtfully and eloquently, not to mention one who admits the dirty little secret that he (same assumption) reads my posts. Thank you.

  149. 149
    Narvy says:

    menemenetekelupharsin said:

    I’m shutting the fuck up for good.

    I echo what Krista said, and add that I was hoping to have you around to stand behind and shout “Yeah, what he said!” If you go away, who will I have to play with? Or agree with?

  150. 150
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    Please keep posting when you can. Your voice is damned refreshing, and you have a very unique perspective on things. I’m just sorry that you had to gain that perspective via pain…although that’s usually how it goes, isn’t it?

    No life is without pain. Some of my friends were molested as children. Imagine talking to them. Or dating them. Then, there’s the job I had counseling rape victims in Camden County, NJ. Not fun.

    And the comment about whether or not your father should have died before you were conceived—I thought it was pretty straightforward. But a lot of people here will analyze a post word for word, hoping to find something on which to pin their aggression.

    All offense intended to some of those present, but there are some serious reading comprehension skill questions pertaining to a lot of people on this blog. I actually think Defense Jizz is one of the more intelligent conservatives posting on this site. If he can’t understand a simple post, what can one expect of a Darrell? (Are there two l’s in Darrel’s name, or am I insultingly misspelling it while I publicly refer to him as a horse’s anus? Tricky questions, indeed. It’s okay if no one answers. I’m not sure how I’d answer myself. If Darrell answers, sorry for the unintentional insults, and I stand by the intentional ones.)

  151. 151
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    Yeah, I’m a man. You should see my muscular build and my great, bulging…intellect.

    I am gratified beyond words to receive a compliment like that from someone who writes so thoughtfully and eloquently, not to mention one who admits the dirty little secret that he (same assumption) reads my posts. Thank you.

    No offense, guy, but I don’t really want to think about your bulges.

    Think twice before you accept compliments from a JD with an assault conviction. (I stabbed someone for talking to me the same way Defense Jizz did, only that particular fellow also said that Hitler should’ve finished killing off the Jews. So I guess it’s justified. Defense Jizz is right, I AM crazy and uptight. Then I went to law school, and someday I’ll be a lawyer.) Matter of fact, every day I have to think twice about my own life, and whether it’s worth continuing. Probably not, but 27 years later here we are.

    Apart from the need to have someone continue to toady up to your responses, does this blog commentar really need yet another crazy lib’rul drunken bastard chiming in? I should think not. Thank you for the compliments, though.

  152. 152
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    Apart from the need to have someone continue to toady up to your responses, does this blog commentar really need yet another crazy lib’rul drunken bastard chiming in? I should think not. Thank you for the compliments, though.

    Mind you, that last paragraph was meant in the most complimentary fashion. Sorry if it sounded flippant or insulting. Such was not my intent. Thank you again for the many unearned compliments.

  153. 153
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    The Katrina cleanup is now no longer about the Gulf Coast. It’s about Bush’s legacy. After he screwed up, he wants to sweep that incompetence under the carpet by greasing the palms of a few building contractors.

    The Death of Fiscal Conservatism, indeed.

    In other words, business as usual for the Bush Administration.

  154. 154
    Narvy says:

    Apart from the need to have someone continue to toady up to your responses, does this blog commentar really need yet another crazy lib’rul drunken bastard chiming in? I should think not.

    You would be wrong. It does sound flippant and insulting and at the same time self-effacing, like something I would write. Don’t go away.

    I’m not sure I’m completely comfortable with someone guilty of assault (although against a person who undoubtedly deserved to be seriously assualted). On the other hand, someone in the process of moving from being a JD to becoming a JD can’t be all bad. And many people have gratifying correspondence with convicts, so I’ve read. So toady away, Dude. I think I can handle it.

    Note to Krista –
    If he keeps this up, we will have to abduct him, lash him to a keyboard, and force him to post.

  155. 155
    Narvy says:

    In other words, business as usual for the Bush Administration.

    “Every death-dealing multi-billion-dollar catastrophe, whether man-made as an unnecesary war or a disaster resulting from forces of nature, is an opportunity for the further enrichment of our cronies.”
    — Pollyanna Bush, perpetually looking on the bright side

  156. 156
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    I’m not sure I’m completely comfortable with someone guilty of assault (although against a person who undoubtedly deserved to be seriously assualted). On the other hand, someone in the process of moving from being a JD to becoming a JD can’t be all bad. And many people have gratifying correspondence with convicts, so I’ve read. So toady away, Dude. I think I can handle it.

    Frankly, and speaking as a guy who’s trying to join a Bar association, my only regret is that I didn’t kill the bastard. Not that I’ll tell the Bar Committee that, but still. Also, I’m morally opposed to the death penalty, but not to killing per se. Some people (i.e., Nazis, Al Qaeda) need killing. As I said, I’m crazy, and you’re better off without my posts, because I’m an embarrassment to our side of the line.

    BTW, Defense Jizz, if you want my name and address, you’ve got ’em.

  157. 157
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    “Every death-dealing multi-billion-dollar catastrophe, whether man-made as an unnecesary war or a disaster resulting from forces of nature, is an opportunity for the further enrichment of our cronies.”— Pollyanna Bush, perpetually looking on the bright side

    What the fuck can people say after that? ROFLMAO

  158. 158
    ppGaz says:

    an opportunity for the further enrichment of our cronies

    Speaking of which, has anyone noticed that the replacement for Brownie is apparently going to be Duct Tape Man?

    In another gesture symbolizing the continued confusion of the federal response, the man President Bush immediately named to succeed “Brownie,” proves to have been the same FEMA official who, two-and-a-half years ago, suggested that Americans stock up on duct tape to protect against a biological or chemical terrorist attack.

    David Paulison, then the government’s Fire Administrator, joined with the then-head of Homeland Security Tom Ridge, on February 10th, 2003, to say that duct tape and plastic sheeting should be part of any home’s “survival kit” in preparation for a terrorist attack. That set off a run on duct tape at stores, and widespread criticism of the administration. It might have been the first time after 9/11 that a large number of Americans wondered if the government really knew what it was talking about when it came to disaster preparedness.

    And the man behind that politically explosive proposal, has just been named to succeed the man who had been the face of the politically explosive response to Hurricane Katrina.

    — Keith Olbermann

    This is why I said, after Bush’s “I take responsbility” scene, let’s wait and see what develops.

    Well, what develops is apparently Fucked Up Business As Usual.

    Read up on Duct Tape Man, and behold your new FEMA director.
    According to Olbermann ….

    Paulison said in February, 2003, that in the first 48 to 72 hours of an emergency, many Americans would likely have to look after themselves.

    Time to review those disaster preparations, my friends. Your government will have little time to look after you while they are busy lining up contracts for the friends of the administration.

  159. 159
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    ppGaz,

    You never answered my question about MLK. What was he like?

  160. 160
    ppGaz says:

    You never answered my question about MLK. What was he like?

    Heh, interesting question. I have led a rather unusual life, the list of famous people I’ve met is …. let me put it this way, people who don’t know me personally would not believe the list, they’d think I was making it up. The main thing about my list is that I had little to do with it, I was just placed into these situations by circumstances and thereby had these opportunities.

    That said, MLK was not a “meet” on my list. I did not get introduced and shake his hand. However, I did get to see him in an appearance before a crowd here in my town, and thanks to the people I was hanging with, was up front in the crowd and got a good look and listen.

    So, what was he like? Well, that’s hard to explain unless you have ever attended church in the black neighborhoods, church where there is a lot of clapping and singing and vocalization going on during the service. It’s a more participatory and emotional kind of church service than most white protestants are accustomed to … and a lot more fun.

    It was like that. Very emotional, very intense. King was probably the greatest orator of the 20th century. He hypnotized the crowd and the crowd appreciated it.

  161. 161
    Bilwick says:

    Ever since New Deal days, if not before, libertarians and the more libertarianish conservatives warned people that if fifty per cent plus one of the voters became in some way financially dependent on the State, then it’s pretty much “Th-th-th-that’s all, folks!” for the dream of a free American republic. Socialists and other “liberals” derided and ridiculed this “reactionary alarmism,” all the while doing their best, via the Democratic Party, to see that in fact fifty per cent plus one of the voters actually DID become in some way financially dependent on the State. “Me-too” Republicans weren’t just ineffectual in impeding this process; they often helped it along, accepting–even defending–the last expansion of the State’s power while sometimes putting up token resistance to further expansion. If a Reagan or a Gingrich seemed sincere in wanting to clip just a few of Leviathan’s tentacles, the Dems and their mouthpieces in the MSM would scream bloody murder, and eventually “mainstream” Republicans would come on board, repudiating the pro-freedom “extremist” wing of the GOP. So–surprise!–one day we wake up and the choice is between the We’ll-Rob-You-Big-Time-and-Steal-Your-Guns Party on the Left and the We’ll-Rob-You-a-Smidge-Less-and-Censor-Your-Porn Party on the Right. What’s to say, except, “You shoulda listened to Mencken, Nock and Hayek when you hand the chance, dumb-asses.”

  162. 162
    Krista says:

    Narvy –

    If he keeps this up, we will have to abduct him, lash him to a keyboard, and force him to post.

    That just sounds like a regular Thursday night to me, kids.
    Besides, he has to stick around, or it’ll just be you and me in the Mutual Admiration Society. Not to mention that I have instant admiration and love for anybody who declares that their opinion is not worth a bucket of hamster semen.

  163. 163
    ppGaz says:

    when you hand the chance, dumb-asses

    Quite a rant. And complete bullshit.

    The rant says, if I read it correctly, that the American experiment is always on the razor’s edge of falling into the abyss of failure.

    I don’t believe that, or any of the dysfunctional ideas that hang from it … such as the idea that “the media” somehow control the thoughts and votes of large numbers of people.

    I believe that the country can, in fact, govern itself, even if the process is clunky, zig zags this way and that, reacts slowly, and sometimes just gets in its own way.

    I also think that one either believes that, or one does not believe in the future of the American experiment, and therefore, should get the hell out of here and go away.

  164. 164
    Bilwick says:

    “ppGaz,” the rant says, in effect, the same thing that Benjamin Franklin said when that woman asked him what kind of government we were going to have: “A republic, madam, if you can keep it.” Getting a majority of the voters financially dependent on Big Brother isn’t the way to keep it. If, by the way, someone who believed in freedom were to conclude–as you seem to say I do–that the experiment has completely, irredeemably failed, and took your advice “to get the hell out of here and go away,” can you suggest a less statist country to go to? Just wondering.

  165. 165
    ppGaz says:

    as you seem to say I do

    I suggest that you do. And your retort does nothing to convince me that my first impression wasn’t right.

    Franklin was right about “keeping” the republic; as GWB would say, “It’s — heh heh — hard work.”

    But Franklin had no more idea than the man in the moon what would be actually required in order to do the thing 200 years hence. He lived in a world of landed gentry, only men with the vote, and slavery. All due respect to the great man, I am not taking a lot of advice from him on how to run the country in the year 2005. I can figure this out for myself.

    As for what you think, I seem to know less about it, the more you post. So, I have no further comment on it.

  166. 166
    Bilwick says:

    Thanks for clarifying, “ppGAZ”–I think. You didn’t actually answer the question, but what the heck. Since you describe my “rant” as “complete bullshit,” I gather you didn’t agree with my characterization of the two major political parties. Could you enlighten me where I went wrong on that? Because I’m going to go out on a limb here and take a wild guess your sympathies are more with the Rob-You-Big-Time-and-Steal-Your-Guns gang rather than with the Rob-You-A-Smidgen-Less-and-Censor-Your-Porn gang–correct? Aagain, just wondering.

  167. 167
    ppGaz says:

    I’m going to go out on a limb here and take a wild guess your sympathies are more with the Rob-You-Big-Time-and-Steal-Your-Guns gang rather than with the Rob-You-A-Smidgen-Less-and-Censor-Your-Porn gang—correct? Aagain, just wondering.

    Har, you are a funny little person! You seem to think that I am going to watch you float by with your grossly opinionated view, construct a strawman bipolar choice for me, and then choose one of your two “choices.”

    Begone, silly person. Your two choices are illusory and incongruent with reality. Exactly how and why that is, can be found in one or two thousand books at your local library, which you will have to explore on your own; it is not my job to counsel you and lift you from your delusions.

  168. 168
    Bilwick says:

    Wow, thanks for that awesome rebuttal. I’m being sarcastic, of course: you never directly addressed any of the points that I raised; but I was wanted to know where you’re “coming from,” and now, I think, I have a pretty good idea.

  169. 169
    ppGaz says:

    you never directly addressed any of the points that I raised

    Please don’t add being a liar onto your already mildewed resume, sir.

    I did in fact directly address your so-called “points.”

    I said that your two “choices,” your two characterizations, are illusory and do not reflect reality.

    If you think I am going to write you a political science and history book here to explain why that is, I am sorry to disappoint you. As I said, you can find the information you need at the library.

    About this, I am right, and you are wrong. We can keep this up all day if you like. I’m recovering from minor surgery today so I really have not that much to do.

    Back to you.

  170. 170
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    Heh, interesting question. I have led a rather unusual life, the list of famous people I’ve met is …. let me put it this way, people who don’t know me personally would not believe the list, they’d think I was making it up. The main thing about my list is that I had little to do with it, I was just placed into these situations by circumstances and thereby had these opportunities.

    That said, MLK was not a “meet” on my list. I did not get introduced and shake his hand. However, I did get to see him in an appearance before a crowd here in my town, and thanks to the people I was hanging with, was up front in the crowd and got a good look and listen.

    So, what was he like? Well, that’s hard to explain unless you have ever attended church in the black neighborhoods, church where there is a lot of clapping and singing and vocalization going on during the service. It’s a more participatory and emotional kind of church service than most white protestants are accustomed to … and a lot more fun.

    It was like that. Very emotional, very intense. King was probably the greatest orator of the 20th century. He hypnotized the crowd and the crowd appreciated it.

    The bastard shot his spine out. There’s nothing poetic or cinematic about it, especially by WASP church standards. It’s so depressing I don’t even know how to address it. But I’ve been in black churches before, so I think I know the phenomenon you’re discussing.

  171. 171
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    That just sounds like a regular Thursday night to me, kids.
    Besides, he has to stick around, or it’ll just be you and me in the Mutual Admiration Society. Not to mention that I have instant admiration and love for anybody who declares that their opinion is not worth a bucket of hamster semen.

    They aren’t. Now please get back to the important business of destroying Bilwick’s opinion-posts.

  172. 172
    Narvy says:

    Back for a few minutes.

    What the fuck can people say after that? ROFLMAO

    Thanks, but if you want to keep reading my stuff, you have to agree to continue posting. Otherwise, I will have to revoke your Narvy-reader’s license. Now I have to find something suitable for Nancy Drew.

    BTW, I caught the clever reference to Mao Tse-Tung. (Oh, God! Tha’ts really reaching.)

  173. 173
    DougJ says:

    That Tom DeLay, what a prankster. When are people going to realize that he’s really a left-leaning guy doing a spoof of a crazed, corrupt, Republican nut? The joke’s on all of you, people.

  174. 174
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    That Tom DeLay, what a prankster. When are people going to realize that he’s really a left-leaning guy doing a spoof of a crazed, corrupt, Republican nut? The joke’s on all of you, people.

    Look who’s talking, Comrade.

    BTW, I appreciate your work. I’ve been reading it in silence for a while, now, I’d like to take this opportunity to thank you for it. It’s quite hilarious.

  175. 175
    Narvy says:

    ppGaz –
    One symptom of inadequate anger management is right-wing style name calling. Calm down and consider that your opposite number in this catfight might actually have a thought to express, even though he masks it with simplistic binary caricatures. You too, Bilwick. Get past the snarkiness and make your points with facts instead of received, unthinking opinions.

    On some thread or other I described myself as a liberal with libertarian leanings. (Note how they both start with the Latin word for “free”.) (Also “book”, as in free library. But I digress.) What does this paradox therefore-it-must-be-a-lie mean? Well, for starters, the liberal part believes that we have an obligation to our fellow citizens to have some way to keep them from falling into poverty of the not-enough-money-to-by-food-for-the-children kind. (You know, like the obligation to free our fellow Iraqi citizens from a brutal dictator.) The libertarian part believes that the way we do this is not to create programs that give our fellow citizens government-channeled taxpayer money to the end of time. Job programs, education programs, using corporate profits to fund business expansion to enable more people to go to work. In this country. (That last one may require liberal government intervention to work. More paradox.) I think you get my drift, unless you’re one of those who have your hands over your ears shouting “I can’t hear you!”

    There is a place for government spending (yeah, I know, Alaska) and a place for not government spending, and limiting the discussion to the two end points of the spectrum is futile, unproductive, pointless, other synonyms go here, and noisy to boot.

    I have to go now and replenish my supply of hyphens and parentheses. Till next time…

  176. 176
    Narvy says:

    menemenetekelupharsin –

    Dude, all the violence and assault devices talk scares me. Your spelling, grammar, and punctuation give the lie to your claim of less smartness. As far as reading my posts is concerned, I’ll change the code and issue a new key to everyone but you.

  177. 177
    ppGaz says:

    One symptom of inadequate anger management is right-wing style name calling. Calm down and consider that your opposite number in this catfight might actually have a thought to express, even though he masks it with simplistic binary caricatures.

    One symptom of inadequate ego management is a post like that.

    Good lord, man, don’t embarass yourself like that, please.

    I’m not angry at Bilwick or whatever his name is. I think he’s a hoot.

    Sure, there might be a thought in there somewhere, but it’s his job to parse it out and say it, not mine.

    But since I am posting, and have nothing else to do, yes, it’s quite possible that at times the two parties look like bad imitations of each other, and bad for the country.

    Wow, talk about your profound and startling new ideas!

    Fuck me! Back to square One, I don’t know anything!

    Okay, you get the idea. Besides, I’ve already addressed this issue multitudinous if not many times in the past.

    Parties serve specific purposes: Building and maitaining coalitions, being the foremost among them. Providing orgazination and infrasturcture for funding, distribution of materials, etc.

    Parties are not humanitarian, good-natured warm puppy dogs there to make you feel all warm as you pee yourself. They are machines for getting and keeping political power. For crissakes, Bilwick, grow up.

  178. 178
    Narvy says:

    That Tom DeLay, what a prankster. When are people going to realize that he’s really a left-leaning guy doing a spoof of a crazed, corrupt, Republican nut?

    Oh, yeah? Then how come he’s not posting here Mr. Smart Person?

    I tried to anagram “Tom Delay” into “DougJ” but it didn’t work.

  179. 179
    Narvy says:

    One symptom of inadequate ego management is a post like that.

    Don’t blame me. I’ve been getting compliments. (From others, of course.)

  180. 180
    ppGaz says:

    I’ve been getting compliments.

    Consider where you are, man.

    A compliment in here is like kissing your half sister.

    On the butt.

  181. 181
    Narvy says:

    A compliment in here is like kissing your half sister.

    Touché! At least I haven’t gotten any from TallDave. Isn’t that a point in my favor?

  182. 182
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    Dude, all the violence and assault devices talk scares me. Your spelling, grammar, and punctuation give the lie to your claim of less smartness. As far as reading my posts is concerned, I’ll change the code and issue a new key to everyone but you.

    Fine by me. Evidently, the history of the Democratic Party is unfamiliar to you. Does the name Boss Tweed ring a bell? This party’s been fighting and bleeding from the get-go. I, for one, am happy to fight for it. It reminds me of the country in general. Once upon a time, it used to represent the country, too.

    Once upon a time, the Irish used to be liberal Democrats. This particular Irish-American still engages in identity politics. I’m the most reactionary bastard on this entire blog. So reactionary, I’m liberal.

  183. 183
    Narvy says:

    Oh, by the way, she’s my stepsister, not my half sister. And she’s a very nice person, and I have to admit, I do kiss her on the cheek. No, no, the ones on her face.

  184. 184
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    Consider where you are, man.

    A compliment in here is like kissing your half sister.

    On the butt.

    Gross, motherfucker. Gross.

    My half-sister is subconsciously cringing right now, I can assure you.

    That remark was uncalled for. Although, ROFLMAO.

  185. 185
    ppGaz says:

    At least I haven’t gotten any from TallDave

    Well, he likes you very much.

    Very, very much.

  186. 186
    Narvy says:

    Does the name Boss Tweed ring a bell?

    Of course, I wear his jackets.
    My aversion to weapons of crass destruction is neutral as to party. And I don’t hold your Irishness against you (unless you kill people in northern Ireland. I’d have a problem with that.)

  187. 187
    Narvy says:

    Well, he likes you very much.

    Very, very much.

    Actually, he has called me unAmerican and unpatriotic. In a single post no less. But then some people show intense liking in unusual ways.

    BTW, how do you know this? Does he confide in you?

  188. 188
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    Of course, I wear his jackets.
    My aversion to weapons of crass destruction is neutral as to party. And I don’t hold your Irishness against you (unless you kill people in northern Ireland. I’d have a problem with that.)

    Too American. I don’t think they’d take me.

    I support their objectives, but not their methods. Although my mother’s peoples’ name is Dempsey. Fucking stupid conflict. Brits should get out now. Brits should get out yesterday. And the Irish should form a Celtic super-state with Ulster, Scotland, Wales, and Cornwall. I have no love for the Brits. Although I have a soft spot in my heart for Tony Blair, the first Englishman I can remember who seems to give two shits about the subhuman potato-eaters in his midst.

  189. 189
    ppGaz says:

    Does he confide in you?

    Well, you can visit his blog, and then if you read the texts out loud into a tape recorder, and play the tapes backward at 1/3 normal speed, while eating figs, you will receive the true messages.

    It took me a while to figure this out, of course.

  190. 190
    Krista says:

    ppGaz – you know it’s time to find a hobby when…

    Ah, this is fun. I think this stream is one of the wittiest and sharpest I’ve seen in awhile. So refreshing to not see the usual “Fuck you”, “No, fuck YOU!” type of debate.

  191. 191
    DougJ says:

    A compliment in here is like kissing your half sister.

    This is a West Virginia blog, isn’t it?

  192. 192
    DougJ says:

    Oh, yeah? Then how come he’s not posting here Mr. Smart Person?

    What makes you sure he’s not? He could be Darrell, you know.

  193. 193
    ppGaz says:

    My half-sister is subconsciously cringing right now, I can assure you.

    As well she might ;-)

  194. 194
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    As well she might

    Completely uncalled for, you funny bastard, you.

    ROFLMAO.

  195. 195
    ppGaz says:

    menemenetekelupharsin

    Okay, this is where I blow my cover and am revealed not to be either the ghost of Lenny Bruce, or even W. C. Fields, but instead just another dumb-as-ham poster to an obscure blog …

    But WHAT THE HELL is that name about?

  196. 196
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    Okay, this is where I blow my cover and am revealed not to be either the ghost of Lenny Bruce, or even W. C. Fields, but instead just another dumb-as-ham poster to an obscure blog …

    But WHAT THE HELL is that name about?

    Now begins the lengthy lefty-liberal Bible quoting…

    Daniel 5:

    1 Belshazzar the king made a great feast to a thousand of his lords, and drank wine before the thousand. 2 Belshazzar, whiles he tasted the wine, commanded to bring the golden and silver vessels which his father Nebuchadnezzar had taken out of the temple which was in Jerusalem; that the king, and his princes, his wives, and his concubines, might drink therein. 3 Then they brought the golden vessels that were taken out of the temple of the house of God which was at Jerusalem; and the king, and his princes, his wives, and his concubines, drank in them. 4 They drank wine, and praised the gods of gold, and of silver, of brass, of iron, of wood, and of stone. 5 In the same hour came forth fingers of a man’s hand, and wrote over against the candlestick upon the plaister of the wall of the king’s palace: and the king saw the part of the hand that wrote. 6 Then the king’s countenance was changed, and his thoughts troubled him, so that the joints of his loins were loosed, and his knees smote one against another. 7 The king cried aloud to bring in the astrologers, the Chaldeans, and the soothsayers. And the king spake, and said to the wise men of Babylon, Whosoever shall read this writing, and shew me the interpretation thereof, shall be clothed with scarlet, and have a chain of gold about his neck, and shall be the third ruler in the kingdom. 8 Then came in all the king’s wise men: but they could not read the writing, nor make known to the king the interpretation thereof. 9 Then was king Belshazzar greatly troubled, and his countenance was changed in him, and his lords were astonied. 10 Now the queen by reason of the words of the king and his lords came into the banquet house: and the queen spake and said, O king, live for ever: let not thy thoughts trouble thee, nor let thy countenance be changed: 11 There is a man in thy kingdom, in whom is the spirit of the holy gods; and in the days of thy father light and understanding and wisdom, like the wisdom of the gods, was found in him; whom the king Nebuchadnezzar thy father, the king, I say, thy father, made master of the magicians, astrologers, Chaldeans, and soothsayers; 12 Forasmuch as an excellent spirit, and knowledge, and understanding, interpreting of dreams, and shewing of hard sentences, and dissolving of doubts, were found in the same Daniel, whom the king named Belteshazzar: now let Daniel be called, and he will shew the interpretation. 13 Then was Daniel brought in before the king. And the king spake and said unto Daniel, Art thou that Daniel, which art of the children of the captivity of Judah, whom the king my father brought out of Jewry? 14 I have even heard of thee, that the spirit of the gods is in thee, and that light and understanding and excellent wisdom is found in thee. 15 And now the wise men, the astrologers, have been brought in before me, that they should read this writing, and make known unto me the interpretation thereof: but they could not shew the interpretation of the thing: 16 And I have heard of thee, that thou canst make interpretations, and dissolve doubts: now if thou canst read the writing, and make known to me the interpretation thereof, thou shalt be clothed with scarlet, and have a chain of gold about thy neck, and shalt be the third ruler in the kingdom. 17 Then Daniel answered and said before the king, Let thy gifts be to thyself, and give thy rewards to another; yet I will read the writing unto the king, and make known to him the interpretation. 18 O thou king, the most high God gave Nebuchadnezzar thy father a kingdom, and majesty, and glory, and honour: 19 And for the majesty that he gave him, all people, nations, and languages, trembled and feared before him: whom he would he slew; and whom he would he kept alive; and whom he would he set up; and whom he would he put down. 20 But when his heart was lifted up, and his mind hardened in pride, he was deposed from his kingly throne, and they took his glory from him: 21 And he was driven from the sons of men; and his heart was made like the beasts, and his dwelling was with the wild asses: they fed him with grass like oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven; till he knew that the most high God ruled in the kingdom of men, and that he appointeth over it whomsoever he will. 22 And thou his son, O Belshazzar, hast not humbled thine heart, though thou knewest all this; 23 But hast lifted up thyself against the Lord of heaven; and they have brought the vessels of his house before thee, and thou, and thy lords, thy wives, and thy concubines, have drunk wine in them; and thou hast praised the gods of silver, and gold, of brass, iron, wood, and stone, which see not, nor hear, nor know: and the God in whose hand thy breath is, and whose are all thy ways, hast thou not glorified: 24 Then was the part of the hand sent from him; and this writing was written. 25 And this is the writing that was written, MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN. 26 This is the interpretation of the thing: MENE; God hath numbered thy kingdom, and finished it. 27 TEKEL; Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting. 28 PERES; Thy kingdom is divided, and given to the Medes and Persians. 29 Then commanded Belshazzar, and they clothed Daniel with scarlet, and put a chain of gold about his neck, and made a proclamation concerning him, that he should be the third ruler in the kingdom. 30 In that night was Belshazzar the king of the Chaldeans slain. 31 And Darius the Median took the kingdom, being about threescore and two years old.

  197. 197
    ppGaz says:

    47 And the head of the declarer ppgaz-azzar did explode and become like vapor. 48 and headless declarer ran naked into the river and was as food to the fishes. 49 and a a proclamation was made by nobody in particular, DID you have to copy the whole goddamned thing. 50 and in the future only the executive overview was permitted in the kingdom

  198. 198
    Krista says:

    I wonder if they called him “Shazz” for short.

    Definitely wins the prize for well-thought-out posting names, I have to say.

    I have to confess to feeling quite intimidated right now, as I can tell that I’m in the blogospheric presence of some really excellent minds.

  199. 199
    ppGaz says:

    Oh god, I haven’t laughed this hard since Babs Bush declared the people in the Astrodome to be Underprivileged.

  200. 200
    Krista says:

    Babs probably thinks that “underprivileged” means that you only have a two-car garage, and have to buy last season’s Coach bag.

    Anything else is completely beyond her comprehension.

  201. 201
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    47 And the head of the declarer ppgaz-azzar did explode and become like vapor. 48 and headless declarer ran naked into the river and was as food to the fishes. 49 and a a proclamation was made by nobody in particular, DID you have to copy the whole goddamned thing. 50 and in the future only the executive overview was permitted in the kingdom

    Fo shizzle, ma nizzle.

    Selah.

  202. 202
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    I wonder if they called him “Shazz” for short.

    Definitely wins the prize for well-thought-out posting names, I have to say.

    I have to confess to feeling quite intimidated right now, as I can tell that I’m in the blogospheric presence of some really excellent minds.

    Hopefully, that last post unintimidated you.

    I’m showing my age, I reckon. Not that I’d expect ppGaz to know what I’m talking about, prideful curmudgeon that he is.

  203. 203
    Krista says:

    ppGaz – that was absolutely FAN-tastic.

    menemenehoweverthefuckitsspelled – well, you DID indicate that your dad was in Vietnam, so that kind of clued in the few of us who were paying attention.

  204. 204
    Narvy says:

    But WHAT THE HELL is that name about?

    Dude, you should have asked me. My answer would have been shorter. And the contemporary meaning is explicated here, albeit in the form of a question.

  205. 205
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    menemenehoweverthefuckitsspelled – well, you DID indicate that your dad was in Vietnam, so that kind of clued in the few of us who were paying attention.

    1

    Hey, leave Snoop Dogg out of this. Say what you will about me and my fogeyism, but don’t you dare touch him.

    I won’t have his innocent name besmirched in this shameful, mud-raking discussion. You bring tears to my eyes, and quivers to my stomach.

    At what point did America (and Canada, too) lose its (their) innocence? To such an extent that one can no longer post Snoop Dogg references without fear of retribution?

    Now, I must go cleanse myself, and weep. Not only for Snoop, but for me. And you. And America. And Canada. And the world.

    I must now don a hair shirt and cut my scalp. Ours is an agonizing era.

  206. 206
    Narvy says:

    I have to confess to feeling quite intimidated right now, as I can tell that I’m in the blogospheric presence of some really excellent minds.

    It’s fake. We’re so afraid of being found out as really stupid people that we post really good stuff to hide the fact.

  207. 207
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    Dude, you should have asked me. My answer would have been shorter. And the contemporary meaning is explicated here, albeit in the form of a question.

    To reiterate, you’re a very smart motherfucker. Anything else I could say about you would only be redundant at this point. You’ve earned my esteem.

    It’s fake. We’re so afraid of being found out as really stupid people that we post really good stuff to hide the fact.

    That certainly applies to me, anyways.

  208. 208
    Narvy says:

    That was certainly presumptuous of me. I should have said “they’re so afraid”. Well, stupidity and arrogance go hand in hand, as evidenced by some of the posts on this site.

  209. 209
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    That was certainly presumptuous of me. I should have said “they’re so afraid”. Well, stupidity and arrogance go hand in hand, as evidenced by some of the posts on this site.

    Shut up. Give yourself more credit, especially when one considers that you post alongside peeps like Defense Jizz and TallDave.

  210. 210
    Narvy says:

    Anything else I could say about you would only be redundant at this point.

    Say it anyway. I’m insecure.

    You’ve earned my esteem.

    I’m not wo-o-orthy. And don’t sell yourself short. Anyone who uses “reiterate” is smart.

  211. 211
    Narvy says:

    I have to go. Please don’t post anything smart or nice while I’m gone. Get Darrell and TallDave back up here.

  212. 212
    Krista says:

    menemenetekelupharsin

    We are now officially confused….

    I’m just trying to figure out how I somehow brought on that (Oscar-worthy) rant.

  213. 213
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    Say it anyway. I’m insecure.

    Do a Google Image Search of the word “blowjob.” That should sum up my sentiments for you quite nicely. ‘Cept, I ain’t gay. I just ain’t. Ain’t got nothin’ ‘gainst ’em, but I ain’t gay muhself. Just a Mick hick from Delwhere whut got 3 and a half beers and a shanty in the ghetto.

    I’m not wo-o-orthy. And don’t sell yourself short. Anyone who uses “reiterate” is smart.

    You are easily impressed.

    We are now officially confused….

    I’m just trying to figure out how I somehow brought on that (Oscar-worthy) rant.

    Sorry if I did anything inappropriate. Now I’m officially confused, too.

  214. 214
    ppGaz says:

    Sorry if I did anything inappropriate.

    Have you considered running for President?

    Anyway, the granddaughter (age 120 days) is here and is just too much fun to pass up, so I will be back in a while.

    I hear that George of the Jungle Bush is going to speak in a while, so I have to see that, I suppose. Just in case he declares war on Louisiana, or whatever goofy fucking thing his tentful of circus clowns is telling him to do today.

    Please play among yourselves for the next couple of hours, and don’t talk about me, or share any good stock tips, until I get back.

  215. 215
    ppGaz says:

    … but not before I leave you with this….

    Please Look At This

    Finally, it’s official.

  216. 216
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    Have you considered running for President?

    I think I’ve done a little bit too much acid in front of too many people for anything like that to become a remote possibility.

    Also, I’m not intending to become a wealthy, born-again Republican any time soon, so my other avenue of political redemption is somewhat defunct.

    Anyway, the granddaughter (age 120 days) is here and is just too much fun to pass up, so I will be back in a while.

    Why bother? I hope this doesn’t sound too forward or inappropriate of me, but that’s what’s important in life. I just wish I could find a chick crazy enough to marry my drunk ass, then when I was 59 like you I could maybe look back on my life and have similar accomplishments to dote upon.

    I hear that George of the Jungle Bush is going to speak in a while, so I have to see that, I suppose. Just in case he declares war on Louisiana, or whatever goofy fucking thing his tentful of circus clowns is telling him to do today.

    Why bother? We both know already what he’s going to say or imply anyway. I’m only 27, but life is already too God damned short. Too many beers to chug, too many skirts to chase. Screw that plutocrat bastard. It’s gotten to the point where I can’t stand to see his ass on TV. I start the profanity almost immediately.

    Please play among yourselves for the next couple of hours, and don’t talk about me, or share any good stock tips, until I get back.

    I bet Halliburton is selling for a pretty princely sum these days.

  217. 217
    Narvy says:

    Please don’t post anything smart or nice while I’m gone.

    I’m glad to see you honored my request.

    I would like to point out that nobody besides our clubby little group has posted here lately. The thread is dead except for the mutual admiration society, and we’ve stopped solving big problems and hammering on the feet of clay. Maybe we should leave here and reunite on some other thread with fights about the latest mal/misfeasance.

  218. 218
    Narvy says:

    Or keep this thread as a refuge just for ourselves.

  219. 219
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    I’m glad to see you honored my request.

    I would like to point out that nobody besides our clubby little group has posted here lately. The thread is dead except for the mutual admiration society, and we’ve stopped solving big problems and hammering on the feet of clay. Maybe we should leave here and reunite on some other thread with fights about the latest mal/misfeasance.

    Least we could do, Comrade.

    Nobody on this entire blog ever solved big problems, and that includes John Cole Himself, Peace Be Unto His Name. This blog exists as a forum for leftwing-on-rightwing conflict, forget that at your peril.

    Other threads aren’t any different.

  220. 220
    tBone says:

    It’s fake. We’re so afraid of being found out as really stupid people that we post really good stuff to hide the fact.

    Some of us take the opposite tack – posting really stupid stuff to hide our staggering intellect.

    And it works proportionally. Yes, it’s true – “gooniebird” could very well be the smartest person in the universe.

  221. 221
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    And it works proportionally. Yes, it’s true – “gooniebird” could very well be the smartest person in the universe.

    I forgot about him.

    That guy probably splices recombinant DNA when he’s not posting here. Or else he’s plotting rocket trajectories for the first manned mission to Mars or something. Smart motherfucker.

  222. 222
    Narvy says:

    Do a Google Image Search of the word “blowjob.” That should sum up my sentiments for you quite nicely. ‘Cept, I ain’t gay. I just ain’t. Ain’t got nothin’ ‘gainst ‘em, but I ain’t gay muhself.

    Dude, I’m flattered.

    I’ve known other guys who felt it necessary to tell everybody and their brother — especially their brother — that they were not gay, no sir, no way, not gay, not me, huh uh. The usual response was “Of course you’re not. Now zip up.”

    A moment of serious: That old gang of ours is on the Promise Kept thresd. Come on over, we need you.

  223. 223
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    Dude, I’m flattered.

    I’ve known other guys who felt it necessary to tell everybody and their brother—especially their brother—that they were not gay, no sir, no way, not gay, not me, huh uh. The usual response was “Of course you’re not. Now zip up.”

    A moment of serious: That old gang of ours is on the Promise Kept thresd. Come on over, we need you.

    Shucks, dude.

    To paraphrase Eddie Murphy, I don’t know whether to say thank you or punch you in the mouth.

    Just kidding. I like you. You’re a funny dude. No snarkin’. I really don’t need to flaunt my sexuality in front of you one way or another. It’s pretty funny to do so, though.

    I’m too busy trying to fuck my brother’s girlfriend to mindtrap him on my sexual orientation. That’s a good idea, though. Let’s call it Plan C.

  224. 224
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    Sorry, Narvy.

    I’m not sure anymore if I was consciously trying to start our posts off in the same way, or if I was just too damned drunk to blockquote you properly. Either way, it simultaneously looks dumb AND funny.

    God, I’m an asshole. Please don’t let me post here anymore, once this thread dies.

  225. 225
    ppGaz says:

    God, I’m an asshole

    Now that’s a prayer.

    See, you have a way with words.

    If you don’t post here every day, we will hunt you down, and, somehow, make you miserable. You will be a miserable asshole.

    Do the right thing, therefore, and post daily.

  226. 226
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    Now that’s a prayer.

    See, you have a way with words.

    If you don’t post here every day, we will hunt you down, and, somehow, make you miserable. You will be a miserable asshole.

    Do the right thing, therefore, and post daily.

    It’ll be worth it, trying to evade you kooky bastards. I’ll start snorting crystal meth by day, and painting my body in stripes of black charcoal and white phosphorous every evening. Once the screaming and agony and meth withdrawal subside, this will probably be effective camouflage. Trust me. Then I’ll jump in rivers and crawl through yew bushes like a rabid, spear-impaled badger hopped up on adrenaline and impending death. And crystal meth too, yes, but let’s stop pointing fingers at drug addicts, here, particularly hypothetical drug addicts of the animal kingdom. Shameless bastards.

    You’ll never take me alive, unless you get ahold of me before I’m dead.

    Shit, why wait for you bastards? Tomorrow, before work, I’m off to find a meth dealer. Maybe he can hook me up with some white phosphorous, too. For all I know, they already use that crap in the meth. Dangerous shit. I’d never mess with meth, it’s an evil drug. It’s like crack cocaine, whose primary beneficiary is and has always been the Contras and the CIA. Nobody with political cognizance fucks with these drugs. Not heroin, neither. Taliban-financer.

    ROFLMAO.

    (BTW, speaking as a hypocrite, I fucking hate Internet abbreviations. ROFLMAO is perhaps the most odious. No, check that. IMHO is the most odious. Nothing is humble about one’s opinion, particularly when one offers a preceding abbreviation. That only serves to heighten the arrogance.)

  227. 227
    ppGaz says:

    Nothing is humble about one’s opinion

    Well, certainly not in my case, but the IMHO is a nod toward courtesy.

    It’s in the same class as “Have a nice day” or “If you don’t mind my saying” which really means, “Shut up, I’m talking.”

  228. 228
    Narvy says:

    No snarkin’.

    You say that only because you haven’t seen me conversing with TallDave and Darrell and their ilk. Not that they don’t beg for it.

    Now that’s a prayer.

    Looks like a declaration to me. Wait, he’s Irish. It’s a confession.

    menetoolonganametotype – Please don’t bug out. It’s not the same party without you. And you might find something make a serious comment about and pound the table and yell at someone.

  229. 229
    Narvy says:

    And the abbreviations save typing. Part of the Keystroke Conservation movement.

    I have a class to go to (don’t make the no-class joke) (please), so I’ll be gone probably till tomorrow. See ya, or more accurately, see y’all’s posts.

  230. 230
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    Well, certainly not in my case, but the IMHO is a nod toward courtesy.

    It’s in the same class as “Have a nice day” or “If you don’t mind my saying” which really means, “Shut up, I’m talking.”

    IMHO, “IMHO” is pretty fucking obnoxious. I’ve always liked your opinions, but if you started regularly using that abbreviation I might change my mind.

    Looks like a declaration to me. Wait, he’s Irish. It’s a confession.

    Seriously, Narvy, will you ever cease to impress me?

    menetoolonganametotype – Please don’t bug out. It’s not the same party without you. And you might find something make a serious comment about and pound the table and yell at someone.

    The serious discussions are the ones where I start stabbing people. This kind of discussion is a lot safer for me. I’m not a stable or sane person. Defense Jizz is right to ignore me. Many cocks unto his mother, many feces flung at his offspring. IMHO, he’s right about my lack of sanity. Also, I voted for, and campaigned for, John F. Kerry. Lock my ass up ASAP.

    I never did hear back from TallDave about Vietnam, though. Come on, TallDave. I’m drunk. Asshole to asshole, let’s talk about why Bao Dai’s regime was superior to that of Ho Chi Minh. Or would you prefer Ngo Dinh Diem? I’m available for either discussion.

  231. 231
    ppGaz says:

    Asshole to asshole

    (Note to self: Add to List of Images to Avoid …. )

    would you prefer Ngo Dinh Diem

    Don’t get me started on the long and depressing list of corrupt governments we’ve sucked up to in my lifetime. It makes me stroke out every time I hear something like “democracy is on the march.”

    “On the march?” On a death march, maybe.

    Vice President Lyndon B. Johnson visited Vietnam in 1961 and met with Diem, calling him the “Churchill of Southeast Asia.” But Johnson also reported back to the president that in his opinion, the United States would have to either commit itself to further military actions or throw in the towel as far as Diem was concerned. Diem, in turn, asked Kennedy to commit an additional 100,000 American troops to Vietnam. Kennedy refused the request, but he did agree to provide assistance to train an additional 30,000 ARVN soldiers.

    One can only weep.

  232. 232
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    And the abbreviations save typing. Part of the Keystroke Conservation movement.

    I have a class to go to (don’t make the no-class joke) (please), so I’ll be gone probably till tomorrow. See ya, or more accurately, see y’all’s posts.

    Godspeed, my friend. Careful with those class thingies, I’ve been to enough of them to know how much they can erode your soul. Godspeed, indeed.

  233. 233
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    (Note to self: Add to List of Images to Avoid …. )

    It wasn’t directed at you. I have plenty of unpleasant imagery I hold in reserve for my enemies. This was an incredibly mild example.

    Don’t get me started on the long and depressing list of corrupt governments we’ve sucked up to in my lifetime. It makes me stroke out every time I hear something like “democracy is on the march.”

    “On the march?” On a death march, maybe.

    My father bought me these cards for my fifteenth birthday. I think you’d enjoy them very much.

    http://home.iprimus.com.au/kor.....Index.html

  234. 234
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    ppGaz,

    Did Johnson really refer to Diem as the “Churchill” of anything? Fucking shameless. I’ve always respected LBJ for his domestic policies, but his foreign policy decisions are beyond reprehensible.

    Keep reading those cards, though. The one about Andreas Papadoupoulos has a funny quote from him about our diplomatic relations with Greece. Funny to me, because I’m not Greek. And I never had to get tortured under a totalitarian right-wing Fascist regime.

    Christ, I’m really a fucking asshole, aren’t I? No need to answer that.

  235. 235
    ppGaz says:

    Keep reading those cards, though.

    My favorite is the Shah of Iran, murderous dictator who, like the Saudi Royals and the Kuwaiti oligarchy, held onto a repressive regime in order to pocket his country’s oil wealth …. and dined regularly in the East Room of the White House.

    The spectacle of an American president standing in that same room now and talking with a straight face about “democracy” being “on the march” and “freedom” being “God’s gift to mankind” is …. surreal. Apparently, God’s “gift” wasn’t made plain to our government until just recently. Via special messenger, I presume.

  236. 236
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    My favorite is the Shah of Iran, murderous dictator who, like the Saudi Royals and the Kuwaiti oligarchy, held onto a repressive regime in order to pocket his country’s oil wealth …. and dined regularly in the East Room of the White House.

    The spectacle of an American president standing in that same room now and talking with a straight face about “democracy” being “on the march” and “freedom” being “God’s gift to mankind” is …. surreal. Apparently, God’s “gift” wasn’t made plain to our government until just recently. Via special messenger, I presume.

    You remind me of my father. Michael S. Cleary of the 101st Airborne, 1969-1970. Thank you.

    Mossadeq was our greatest screwup in the entire history of our asinine Middle East relations. The man was Gandhi-esque, a patriot in the truest sense of the word, stout of heart and large of scrotum. How Eisenhower let the Dulles brothers fuck this shit up is as incomprehensible as it is inexcusable. How America could forgive Eisenhower for this error is equally incomprehensible, barring some hitherto unrevealed drug addiction or alien-abduction and subsequent brain rewiring.

    I’m far too much of a drunkard for this flamewar crap. I’m retiring, now. Good luck with it.

    Sincerely yours,
    Oliver J. Cleary

  237. 237
    ppGaz says:

    How Eisenhower let the Dulles brothers fuck this shit up is as incomprehensible as it is inexcusable. How America could forgive Eisenhower for this error is equally incomprehensible, barring some hitherto unrevealed drug addiction or alien-abduction and subsequent brain rewiring.

    Really interesting topic.

    Eisenhower was a brilliant man, a guy who could martial in his head a thousand details and get them all right and keep them straight.

    In order to become Supreme Allied Commander, he had to have the supreme confidence of the civilian authority.

    I am just not sure how he allowed the evil Dulles brothers to gin up the Cold War — and other — policies that really and truly fucked up the world and this country for nearly a half century. It’s a part of history for which I haven’t found the right writing, if it’s there.

    Eisenhower let himself get fucked over by GOP politics and got himself stuck with Nixon, too. For a man of his stature to get cornholed by these shitty people is just a thing I can’t fathom.

    The great general gave us the Cold War AND Richard Nixon. You couldn’t write a novel like that, nobody would believe it.

  238. 238
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    Really interesting topic.

    Eisenhower was a brilliant man, a guy who could martial in his head a thousand details and get them all right and keep them straight.

    In order to become Supreme Allied Commander, he had to have the supreme confidence of the civilian authority.

    I am just not sure how he allowed the evil Dulles brothers to gin up the Cold War—and other—policies that really and truly fucked up the world and this country for nearly a half century. It’s a part of history for which I haven’t found the right writing, if it’s there.

    Eisenhower let himself get fucked over by GOP politics and got himself stuck with Nixon, too. For a man of his stature to get cornholed by these shitty people is just a thing I can’t fathom.

    The great general gave us the Cold War AND Richard Nixon. You couldn’t write a novel like that, nobody would believe it.

    Excellent points.

    Eisenhower was a brilliant general, anyone with even a passing knowledge of WWII should recognize his genius for supplying and reinforcing military bases and fronts. Without supplies, no military success is even conceivable.

    On the other hand, he fucked up as a President. Maybe he just got old and tired, or maybe he just plain screwed up in his appointments. I don’t know, but the facts of the matter are that a lot of America’s current Middle East problems stem from Eishenhower’s fuckups.

    As for why a man of his stature let himself get fucked up by GOP politics, you’re the ex-GOPer here, not me. I’ve never trusted that political organization, and I never will. You can explain to me that crap, maybe. I’m an Irish Democrat from the cradle to the grave. The reasons others fall for the siren songs of a political organization whose fundamental principles consistently include fucking the poor over on every level and fomenting racial instability as a means of sustaining its own power on an indefinite basis are thoroughly beyond me, quite frankly.

    Shamelessly molting,

    Cleary

  239. 239
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    you’re the ex-GOPer here, not me.

    I thought you said you were, anyways.

    Sorry if I was wrong.

  240. 240
    ppGaz says:

    I thought you said you were, anyways.

    No, never a Repub. You probably saw me saying that I was a Barry Goldwater fan. Has more to do with Barry himself than with the tortured history of the GOP.

    Goldwater was a lot of things, including a merchant here in Phoenix. He really served as the godfather of the modern conservative movement, and whether you liked the policies or not, you had to admire Barry himself. He was plainspoken and blunt and seemed to have no use for Beltway doublspeak. Thus, my admiration.

    But I was a Democrat before I could drive a car. First, it was Adlai. Then, it was hatred of the way Republicans held an iron grip on Arizona politics. Then it was Civil Rights. Then it was Vietnam. Vitenam almost tore me away from being a Goldwater fan, because he went all Air National Guard on us. Anyway, I came back to Barry when he let on that he detested Nixon. Anyone who detested Nixon couldn’t be all bad.

    And so forth, and so on.

    Donkey all the way. Heehawwwwwwwwww, etc.

    No apology necessary. My seven-volume biography is still being worked on.

    Born in a log cabin, on a dark and stormy night ……

  241. 241
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    No, never a Repub. You probably saw me saying that I was a Barry Goldwater fan. Has more to do with Barry himself than with the tortured history of the GOP.

    Goldwater was a lot of things, including a merchant here in Phoenix. He really served as the godfather of the modern conservative movement, and whether you liked the policies or not, you had to admire Barry himself. He was plainspoken and blunt and seemed to have no use for Beltway doublespeak. Thus, my admiration.

    But I was a Democrat before I could drive a car. First, it was Adlai. Then, it was hatred of the way Republicans held an iron grip on Arizona politics. Then it was Civil Rights. Then it was Vietnam. Vitenam almost tore me away from being a Goldwater fan, because he went all Air National Guard on us. Anyway, I came back to Barry when he let on that he detested Nixon. Anyone who detested Nixon couldn’t be all bad.

    And so forth, and so on.

    Donkey all the way. Heehawwwwwwwwww, etc.

    No apology necessary. My seven-volume biography is still being worked on.

    Born in a log cabin, on a dark and stormy night ……

    Sorry for the GOP speculations. The questions still apply to any Republican willing to answer them.

    Goldwater, eh? That motherfucker’s most decent line was “Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice… Moderation in the defense of liberty is no virtue.”

    I’d almost ask you about how your generation could tolerate the existence of Vietnam, but then I remember Iraq and have to command-override my own fingers as they attempt to claw my eyeballs out of their sockets. This country is by far the greatest phenomenon known to humanity. I love this country more than words can convey, if I needed to I would kill more people for this country than most fair-weather patriots are capable of imagining. Why, in your opinion, do we continue to allow ourselves to be donkey-punched into the most asinine insanity-plans conceived since the military tactics demonstrated by Field Marshal Haig’s drink cabinet commanded whole military corps? Getting decent people killed for no discernible military reason whatsoever? (Mind you, Defense Jizz, I’d happily give your life for this country. It’s a good time for you to remain silent.)

    Sometimes, life seems too crazy to live. Sorry for getting personal, but if it weren’t for my recollected blowjobs, I don’t think I could pull through.

  242. 242
    ppGaz says:

    Mind you, Defense Jizz, I’d happily give your life for this country. It’s a good time for you to remain silent

    Har. Well coined. I was 4F at Vietnam draft time, so I didn’t serve. My genes failed me, and the country. I was a commercial pilot and could have gotten Warrant Officer school and a gummint airplane to fly with no problem, but they didn’t like my physique enough to sign me up. I would have been a helluva recon or forward air controller stick jockey. I can land an airplane on your driveway and not even leave skidmarks.

    Anyway, to your question … my hunch, and it is only a hunch, based on talking to a lotta people from coast to coast, is that the average American is too damned busy living his life and taking care of his family to know about the details …. and the average politician is just too damned happy to bamboozle that average Joe and Jane.

    “The American people are particularly susceptible to demagogic appeals.”

    You won’t believe who said that.

  243. 243
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    Har. Well coined. I was 4F at Vietnam draft time, so I didn’t serve. My genes failed me, and the country. I was a commercial pilot and could have gotten Warrant Officer school and a gummint airplane to fly with no problem, but they didn’t like my physique enough to sign me up. I would have been a helluva recon or forward air controller stick jockey. I can land an airplane on your driveway and not even leave skidmarks.

    Why does your DNA hate America? More importantly, and more abstractly, why does Defense Jizz continue to speak?

    Anyway, to your question … my hunch, and it is only a hunch, based on talking to a lotta people from coast to coast, is that the average American is too damned busy living his life and taking care of his family to know about the details …. and the average politician is just too damned happy to bamboozle that average Joe and Jane.

    Panem et circenses. This world has seen this phenomenon before. The last time a country this majestic came along was fucking Rome, and it died for the exact same reasons. Please forgive me for not accepting your answer quietly. However accurate and intelligent it may be. Panem et circenses.

    “The American people are particularly susceptible to demagogic appeals.”

    You won’t believe who said that.

    Hermann Goering?

    Beyond that asshole, I’m not even trying to guess.

  244. 244
    ppGaz says:

    Richard Nixon said it in early 1968, on the Tonight Show, before he was nominated. Just about the time people started to catch on that he was serious about running and was going to get nominated because he had laid the necessary groundwork in the party.

    Anyhow, he said it …. and hey, he oughta know.

  245. 245
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    Richard Nixon said it in early 1968, on the Tonight Show, before he was nominated. Just about the time people started to catch on that he was serious about running and was going to get nominated because he had laid the necessary groundwork in the party.

    Anyhow, he said it …. and hey, he oughta know.

    That asshole was too obvious. You flew under my radar by flying over it. I may never forgive you, but just in case I do, check this one out: http://teaching.arts.usyd.edu......ts/source9

    Motherfucker. Your hatred of gangsta rap is completely inexcusable.

    Your friend in Delaware,

    Oliver J. Cleary

  246. 246
    Narvy says:

    Well, I go away for a few minutes and mene_etc reveals his real name, or at least somebody’s real name, ppGaz divulges a physical defect of some sort, and mene_etc decries the use of “IMHO” and then uses it himself in the same post, thus showing what a liberal hypocrite he is.

    Eisenhower was a brilliant military leader, but his political views were pretty retrograde. He is supposed to have responded to the question “What was your biggest mistake?” with “Earl Warren.” He really is responsible for much of what has plagued the world since his term in office. Sort of like stepping on the butterfly in that Ray Bradbury story. Small decisions can have enormous consequences.

    Barry Goldwater. I am old enough to remember his being really scary, primarily because of a tin ear for political statements. The extremism-in-defense-of-liberty line may sound great in 2005, but back in the day it implied aggressive military action without actually being military threatened, much like the Bush defense of liberty. [Clue alert] But his family had a very nice department store, I have to admit that. [End clue alert. If this had been a real clue you would have drawn a valid inference. Now back to our usual snarking, already in progress.]

    By the way (note non-use of abhorrent abbreviation),

    Sorry for getting personal, but if it weren’t for my recollected blowjobs,

    Were they received or given? Or both? (Please be aware that I never met a straightline I didn’t like.)

  247. 247
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    Motherfucker. Your hatred of gangsta rap is completely inexcusable.

    Sorry, that sounded a little bit harsher than it sounded in my head before I wrote it.

    All kidding aside, though, you need to give the shit a chance.

  248. 248
    Narvy says:

    Holy product of defecation! First the cards, now the teaching.arts.usyd.edu.au site. Mene, baby, you are a fornicating goldmine. Oh, God, please don’t let him leave.

  249. 249
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    Well, I go away for a few minutes and mene_etc reveals his real name, or at least somebody’s real name, ppGaz divulges a physical defect of some sort, and mene_etc decries the use of “IMHO” and then uses it himself in the same post, thus showing what a liberal hypocrite he is.

    Where’s your sense of humor? And Oliver James Aidan Cleary
    is, in fact, my real name. How am I supposed to threaten Defense Jizz if I’m not willing to give him my own name in retaliation?

    Eisenhower was a brilliant military leader, but his political views were pretty retrograde. He is supposed to have responded to the question “What was your biggest mistake?” with “Earl Warren.” He really is responsible for much of what has plagued the world since his term in office. Sort of like stepping on the butterfly in that Ray Bradbury story. Small decisions can have enormous consequences.

    He gave us Brennan. God bless him for that, no matter what he thought of it. And no matter what the rest of his faults were. Brennan was one of those few Americans who made me see why I should love America. God bless Brennan, and God bless Eisenhower for making the mistake of appointing his liberal ass.

    Were they received or given? Or both? (Please be aware that I never met a straightline I didn’t like.)

    Both. (It’s a blowjob when you eat a chick out, right? Or do you normally refer to that as a tonguejob or something?) But the ones I fondly remember to stave off shotgun-in-mouth disease are the ones that pertain to womenfolks working on my thingie-ma-bob. Sorry if that ain’t been clear.

  250. 250
    Narvy says:

    Panem et circenses.

    I’m impressed. Miss Ledyard would be proud of you (if you were one of her students).

  251. 251
    ppGaz says:

    He is supposed to have responded to the question “What was your biggest mistake?” with “Earl Warren.”

    Yes, but after his stroke, he might have answered that to anything.

    “Who was the hottest chick you ever went out with?”

    “Earl Warren.”

    So, you know, some things you have to take with a grain of salt substitute.

  252. 252
    Narvy says:

    It’s a blowjob when you eat a chick out, right?

    Not in the circles I move in. (Wait for hysterical laughter at subtle, ambiguous pun.) But I get the picture. Well, that was an unfortunate choice of words. Make that “I understand”.

  253. 253
    ppGaz says:

    Narvy Says:

    Panem et circenses.

    I’m impressed. Miss Ledyard would be proud of you (if you were one of her students).
    September 16th, 2005 at 1:21 am

    Holy shit. I had a Latin teacher named Miss Ledyard.

    Details, please.

  254. 254
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    I’m impressed. Miss Ledyard would be proud of you (if you were one of her students).

    Sorry, bro. I’m a product of Saint John’s College, in Annapolis, Maryland, and Santa Fe, New Mexico. The U of D was merely the stomping ground of my high school, a place I tried desperately to escape. Nowadays, it’s the ogling-ground of my late 20s, a place whose co-eds’ panties I try desperately to invade. Funny how life changes.

  255. 255
    ppGaz says:

    All kidding aside, though, you need to give the shit a chance.

    A chance at what?

    I listen to Ellington, Armstrong, and Rachmaninoff.

    What would be my agenda, again?

  256. 256
    ppGaz says:

    Sorry, bro. I’m a product of Saint John’s College, in Annapolis, Maryland

    Are you guys fucking with me? My brother attended there.

    Left after a couple years, his father was ill and he came home to care for him.

  257. 257
    Narvy says:

    My God, we’re funny, and we stimulate each other to be funnier and funnier. Eventually, we will be so funny that we will explode. This is the most mutual-masturbatory conversation I’ve had since high school.

  258. 258
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    Not in the circles I move in. (Wait for hysterical laughter at subtle, ambiguous pun.) But I get the picture. Well, that was an unfortunate choice of words. Make that “I understand”.

    (Hyena-esque cackling tastefully deleted.)

    Well, ’round these parts, eating a chick out is known as a blowjob. Sorry for the confusion. I’m a virgin when it comes to man-sucking, I reckon.

    Respectfully tipping his cowboy hat at the womenfolk,
    Oliver Cleary

  259. 259
    ppGaz says:

    My God, we’re funny, and we stimulate each other to be funnier and funnier.

    So, I’ve brought on a laughter-induced asthma attack and the paramedics are on their way.

    But what about Miss Ledyard? I tell you, I had a Latin teacher by that name.

  260. 260
    Narvy says:

    Details, please.

    West Phoenix High School. Go Thunderbirds! Fight, for maroon and white! (Not a joke, that line was in the fight song.) I adored Connie Ledyard, even if the language she taught was totally useless.

    I confess ppGaz, the reference was a fishing expedition.

  261. 261
    ppGaz says:

    I adored Connie Ledyard

    Her name was Cornelia. A friend of my family, my Latin teacher, and my brother’s Latin tutor.

    I kid you not.

  262. 262
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    A chance at what?

    I listen to Ellington, Armstrong, and Rachmaninoff.

    What would be my agenda, again?

    Agenda?

    Nevermind, this conversation is beyond us.

    Are you guys fucking with me? My brother attended there.

    Left after a couple years, his father was ill and he came home to care for him.

    I shit you not. I’m Santa Fe Class of 2000. When did your brother go there?

  263. 263
    Narvy says:

    eating a chick out is known as a blowjob

    The term “chick” is considered demeaning. Please don’t use it unless you are speaking of something socially constructive and intellectually elevated like “chick lit”, for example. And where I come from, the activity of which you speak is known by the much more refined term “eating pussy”.

  264. 264
    ppGaz says:

    I shit you not. I’m Santa Fe Class of 2000. When did your brother go there?

    My brother went to St Johns in Maryland. You missed him by about 20 years. The kid (he’s the younger) was a frigging bookworm and classics hound the likes of which I have never seen.

    I am sad to report that today he is an abject Dobsonian Republican, fag-hating Planned Parenthood bashing Bush-loving wingnut. In fact, I stopped speaking to him a few months ago, the arguments were just too painful.

  265. 265
    ppGaz says:

    The term “chick” is considered demeaning. Please don’t use it unless you are speaking

    Is Chick-fil-A okay?

  266. 266
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    The term “chick” is considered demeaning. Please don’t use it unless you are speaking of something socially constructive and intellectually elevated like “chick lit”, for example. And where I come from, the activity of which you speak is known by the much more refined term “eating pussy”.

    Many apologies for continuing to refer to quim-rimming in the degrading and misogynistic terminology you mention. I’ll try to refrain from doing so in the future. Henceforward, eating pussy will only be referenced in the most respectful and saintly of terms, and will only be referenced on an occasional basis, so as not to offend those who ascribe to the Book of Numbers, who happen to believe that pussy-eating is inherently sinful.

    Continuing to tip my cowboy hat at random like a Goddamn robot cyborg asshole or something,
    Oliver

  267. 267
    ppGaz says:

    I’m West High class of 1963.

  268. 268
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    Yes, but after his stroke, he might have answered that to anything.

    “Who was the hottest chick you ever went out with?”

    “Earl Warren.”

    So, you know, some things you have to take with a grain of salt substitute.

    This shit was too fucking funny to let pass unremarked.

    So, it’s remarked upon . Selah.

  269. 269
    Narvy says:

    Her name was Cornelia.

    Right. But she answered to (and I think preferred) Connie. After I went off to college, we corresponded for a bit, then that faded away, and years later, after my callowness quotient declined, I got sad about it; this has persisted throughout my adult life.

    This is … What, a cosmic coincidence? Proof that there is a God? Evidence that kids who took Latin instead of something useful are somehow eternally linked?

    I am … I almost said speechless, but that would be such a lie … astounded.

  270. 270
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    Is Chick-fil-A okay?

    No. You fucking womanizing whoremongering bastard. How dare you degrade women in this fashion.

    If you truly wanted to treat women with decency and respect, you’d defer to the chivalry of that modern-day knight of decency, Eazy E. (See now why I was tryin’ to get you interested in gangsta rap? It all comes together.)

    http://home.swipnet.se/~w-10437/eazy.htm

  271. 271
    Narvy says:

    I’m West High class of 1963.

    OK, but only because I trust you: West High class of 1955. At least I think it was ’55, with my senility it’s hard to be sure.

  272. 272
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    My brother went to St Johns in Maryland. You missed him by about 20 years. The kid (he’s the younger) was a frigging bookworm and classics hound the likes of which I have never seen.

    I am sad to report that today he is an abject Dobsonian Republican, fag-hating Planned Parenthood bashing Bush-loving wingnut. In fact, I stopped speaking to him a few months ago, the arguments were just too painful.

    A typical Annapoloid. This is exactly why I transferred to Santa Fe.

    Sorry for your loss. I mean that. Annapolis kills a little bit of all of us. I despise that town.

  273. 273
    ppGaz says:

    Right. But she answered to (and I think preferred) Connie.

    Could be. My mother always called her Cornelia. My mother is a rather odd person though.

    Cornelia lived in a condo which I can just about see from my front yard. I live near Park Central. I don’t know if she is still alive, but I think she is about the same age as my mother, and my mother is in excellent health. I’ll find out about Ms. Ledyard. A brilliant woman and fine teacher.

    So, uh, what was your West High graduating class?

  274. 274
    Narvy says:

    I did not come here to have a genuine emotional experience. Can we go back to snarking now?

  275. 275
    Narvy says:

    So, uh, what was your West High graduating class?

    Ah, the joys of non-interactive, semi-real-time but not quite conversation. Look a bit upthread.

  276. 276
    Narvy says:

    Change non-interactive to non-direct-contact. Thank You.

  277. 277
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    I did not come here to have a genuine emotional experience. Can we go back to snarking now?

    No. With all due respect, fuck you. I demand further conversation about muff-diving, and the non-misogynistic descriptions thereof.

    Mind you, right about now I’m about as drunk as one can conceivably become and still retain the capacity to type. So I’ll probably be very, very disappointed and ashamed of my treatment of women in the morning.

    I hate you and ppGaz both. Curse you both for making me the sort of man I’ve evidently become.

  278. 278
    ppGaz says:

    Oh, ’55. I was going to Kenilworth in ’55.

    West High stories! Did you ever see the Foucalt Pendulum? We had one of maybe three operating ones in the United States in the main lobby of the school.

    You missed Lynda Day, of course.

    Lynda Day George

  279. 279
    ppGaz says:

    No. You fucking womanizing whoremongering bastard.

    True enough, probably, but in this case, I was just talking about the fast food outlet.

  280. 280
    Narvy says:

    Ah, the joys of non-interactive, semi-real-time but not quite conversation. Look a bit upthread

    OK, it’s late and I’m not at what I like to think of as my best. Take 2:

    Ah, the joys of non-direct-contact, semi-real-time-but-not-quite conversation. Look a bit upthread.

  281. 281
    ppGaz says:

    Sorry for your loss. I mean that.

    Yes, it’s true. I really love my brother, but I can’t talk to him any more. His moral-superiority bullshit makes me want to kill him with my bare hands.

  282. 282
    ppGaz says:

    Curse you both for making me the sort of man

    But at least we did it quickly. I’ve only known you for a few hours. It seems like longer, of course …..

  283. 283
    Narvy says:

    I was going to Kenilworth in ‘55.

    Is this a reference to the grammar school I attended, or is there some other Kenilworth in Phoenix?

    I don’t believe this is happening. I’m going to wake up and it will all have been a dream.

  284. 284
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    True enough, probably, but in this case, I was just talking about the fast food outlet.

    That’s no excuse to my drunken Irish ass.

    Come to think of it, my drunken Irish ass doesn’t remember whatever the fuck it was you were supposed to excuse in the first place. I’m just enjoying Eazy-E, and the tenets of the moral mantra, “Just Don’t Bite It.” So whatever you did wrong is probably okay with me, ppGaz.

    Do you ever write haikus, dude? We should start that one of these days.

    Fucking drunk and shit, and further fulfilling the Irish-American stereotype,
    Oliver Cleary

  285. 285
    Narvy says:

    I really love my brother, but I can’t talk to him any more. His moral-superiority bullshit makes me want to kill him with my bare hands.

    This is really sad. I’m really sorry to hear about this.
    No jokes here.

  286. 286
    ppGaz says:

    Is this a reference to the grammar school I attended, or is there some other Kenilworth in Phoenix?

    No, only one, and it is still in operation, refurbed, quite the gem, actually. We’ve had a couple of huge reunion things there. The number of alumni around here is amazing. You know that Barry Goldwater went to school there?

    Did you have Miss Smucker in kindergarten?

    Anyway, do you still live in Phoenix? Obviously, I do.

    Well, I mean, I came back. I lived elsewhere for a considerable amount of time between then, and now.

  287. 287
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    Yes, it’s true. I really love my brother, but I can’t talk to him any more. His moral-superiority bullshit makes me want to kill him with my bare hands.

    I’m an SJC grad. I understand. I’m sorry.

    But at least we did it quickly. I’ve only known you for a few hours. It seems like longer, of course …..

    My only retort can come in the form of senseless, lengthy gibberish obscenities. While such a rejoinder would undeniably amuse us both immensely, frankly I’ve obtained a temporary pocket of relative sobriety which renders it impossible. Ergo, we’ll have to forego the senseless camel-fuck jizz-swearing for the time being. I shall have to respectfully request a raincheck for the opportunity to behave like a complete subhuman jackass to you, and shall remain cordially yours for the time being,

    Oliver James Aidan Cleary, Esquire

    *shit, dude, that last part’s too fucking funny; I think I just laughed so hard I swallowed my uvula*

  288. 288
    Narvy says:

    Guys, I have to break this off. But I want you both to know that you have broken through the Web emotional-isolation shield and I’m sitting here looking at a totally melted down pile of ironic/sarcastic commentary from which nothing can be salvaged. Damn you.

    To be continued.

  289. 289
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    Guys, I have to break this off. But I want you both to know that you have broken through the Web emotional-isolation shield and I’m sitting here looking at a totally melted down pile of ironic/sarcastic commentary from which nothing can be salvaged. Damn you.

    To be continued.

    Thanks. I guess.

    Anything else I could say at this point would only be an NWA quote, and would probably pertain to the continuous failure of pussy-ass bitches to refrain from underestimating the overwhelming firepower potential of true gangstas.

  290. 290
    ppGaz says:

    Oliver James Aidan Cleary, Esquire

    It has been a great pleasure making your acquaintance, sir, and I look forward to future exchanges.

    I post my email address here for you and for Narvy. I don’t do this often because of insane stalkers out there, but anyway, for you guys it is worth the risk:

    ppgooding_removethis@rocketmail.com.remove_this_too

    I wish I could drink with you, but my doctor won’t allow it, and since I basically owe him my life, I must follow his advice or else die like a damned fool.

    I will now retire for the day but look forward to hurling insults at both of you tomorrow.

  291. 291
    Narvy says:

    All right I lied, I haven’t really gone away yet.

    Did you have Miss Smucker in kindergarten?

    A little after my time, but a little girl down the street from me had “Mr. Mucker” in kindygarden. Was Miss Burge the librarian when you were there?

  292. 292
    Narvy says:

    I post my email address here for you and for Narvy. I don’t do this often because of insane stalkers out there, but anyway, for you guys it is worth the risk

    What a magnificent showing of trust. Let’s betray it.

    I’ll send you an e-mail with my contact info tomorrow.

  293. 293
    Narvy says:

    ppG, in all seriousness, that was not a good idea. there are ways to exchange addresses that are less exposed to the nutcases.

  294. 294
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    Thanks, ppGaz. I’ve read this blog long enough to know what kind of an asinine risk you’re taking. I want you to know I really appreciate it. You’re a very good man. I like you a lot. Temporary alcohol-induced ball-bustings notwithstanding.

    Mind you, I’m young and drunk and fucking completely crazy, so it’s very easy for me to let the folks around here know my name and shit. It’s gotta be harder for you. The shit is now absorbed. My email address is juicyseal@sharkattacks.com. It ain’t my main email address, or it wouldn’t be here; but there it is.

    BTW, I’m shitfaced.

    Distracted by forced ponderings on how much pussy Eazy E was forced to consume in his HIV + self-loathings,
    Oliver

  295. 295
    ppGaz says:

    What a magnificent showing of trust. Let’s betray it.

    I expected nothing less than complete betrayal. But at my age, betrayal and fealty seem like the same thing.

    Ms. Burge sounds familiar. I remember a rather strict librarian who was really hot on the Dewey Decimal system.
    The libary was upstairs in the back of the school, on the west side, with a terrifying wrought iron fire escape stair thing hanging out the back door, that led down to the playground.

  296. 296
    ppGaz says:

    BTW, I’m shitfaced.

    Enjoy it for both of us.

    Good night, I will be here tomorrow.

  297. 297
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    I expected nothing less than complete betrayal. But at my age, betrayal and fealty seem like the same thing.

    Ms. Burge sounds familiar. I remember a rather strict librarian who was really hot on the Dewey Decimal system.
    The libary was upstairs in the back of the school, on the west side, with a terrifying wrought iron fire escape stair thing hanging out the back door, that led down to the playground.

    I can’t help but feel completely superfluous during these conversations.

    No offense, but it hurts my feelings. And makes me get drunk. Which makes my feelings totally irrelevant. What was it I was arguing about with you again? Shut up, motherfucker, I’ll kill you and eat your spine. Gaining your strength and shit.

    Wait a minute, who was I trying to kill again? Fuck, I’m drunk.

  298. 298
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    Enjoy it for both of us.

    Good night, I will be here tomorrow.

    I will. I think.

    Your doctor is a dick, dude.

  299. 299
    ppGaz says:

    Fuck, I’m drunk.

    Ah, that brings back some fond memories for me.

    I sent you mail, go to bed for crissakes.

  300. 300
    Narvy says:

    I remember a rather strict librarian who was really hot on the Dewey Decimal system.

    OK, I’m convinced. You’re for real.

    The libary was upstairs in the back of the school, on the west side, with a terrifying wrought iron fire escape stair thing hanging out the back door, that led down to the playground.

    I’m not sure about the west wing (Stupid joke alert!), but the fire escape is indelibly etched in my memory.

    This is fucking incredible! And that’s the first time I have permitted a naughty word to appear in one of my posts. Well, maybe not really the actual first, but I am normally very circumspect.

    It’s late. Tune in tomorrow. Both of you. That’s an order.

    This is so much better than having an actual life!

  301. 301
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    Ah, that brings back some fond memories for me.

    I sent you mail, go to bed for crissakes.

    Bed is for the weak.

    This is my weekend, mofo. I’ll check my mail, though. But I can’t guarantee a sober reply.

    Fuck, I’m so drunk. Fucking ridiculous. You have no idea how long it took me to retype those last 3 sentences. So. Fucking. Drunk. Evil Irish bastard. My Dad should’ve won the Congressional Medal of Honor, not just the pussy Bronze Star. Would’ve made my behavior make a lot more sense. Fucking Christ, I’m drunk. Gonna go check my email now, please excuse me.

  302. 302
    Narvy says:

    No offense, but it hurts my feelings.

    Yeah, I thought about this, Oliver. Really. I’m truly sorry that you aren’t a part of this Old Boys'(in more ways that one) meet-up. But it doesn’t mean we don’t love you. We’re still here for you.

  303. 303
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    Yeah, I thought about this, Oliver. Really. I’m truly sorry that you aren’t a part of this Old Boys’(in more ways that one) meet-up. But it doesn’t mean we don’t love you. We’re still here for you.

    Blargh! I’ll fucking kill! Who’s pussy must I defile? Who’s anus is currently in need of ambiguous sexual reorientation? For such an order, please refer to my bisexual amigo. Nevertheless, his existence indicates deep rifts within the tornado-prone fabric of Americana.

    But I fuckinng digress. Shit! Piss! Fuck! Ass-licking, anus-gobbling, cock-banditry! I’ll kill you motherfucking all! Let the cravenness begin.

    Defense jizz, thy offspring shan’t be spared.

  304. 304
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    Fuckers. I’ll kill you all.

    Fuck, I’m drunk.

  305. 305
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    Fuckers. I’ll kill you all.

    Mind you, this statement should probably be edited so as to exclude “those capable of resistance.” Clearly. those capable of resistance shall not fall before the awesome might of my drunken inanity. The rest of you fuckheads have been warned.

    I’ve lost more trim in this fashion than you could ever conceive of, too. Christ on a pike, I’m a fucking ass; but, I’ll kill you.

  306. 306
    Krista says:

    Man…I really missed a lot here. Mind you, if I’d been here, I somehow doubt that the conversation would have gone down (or would that be up?) certain alleyways.

    Menemene-man; one thing you said (besides all of the sexual references, of course), really piqued my curiousity:

    Continuing to tip my cowboy hat at random like a Goddamn robot cyborg asshole or something,

    Was that a Dark Tower reference?

  307. 307
    Narvy says:

    Krista –

    Do you think we can do anything to help mene_etc out of his black hole?

  308. 308
    Krista says:

    Narvy – I don’t know…I think he feels it’s an integral part of who he is. I think just knowing that we think he’s cool, and that we like him and want him to keep in touch…that might help.

  309. 309
    Narvy says:

    Krista –

    I hope you’re right. He seems to be in serious pain and I can’t do anything except recommend medical help. Which, if I did, would probably set off a torrent of invective comparable to Katrina.

  310. 310
    Narvy says:

    Well, the Boy Genius has blown it. I got so wrapped up in this that I forgot it’s visible to ALL.

    Mene_etc, if you read this, please don’t be offended. Remember I’m a liberal and make allowances for my urge to meddle.

  311. 311
    Krista says:

    And I’m a girl, so the nuturing instinct tends to rear its head at inappropriate times.

    Mene_etc…seriously though, man. We think you’re awesome: smart, funny as hell, with some of the best biting, self-deprecating wit I’ve seen in my life. If we knew each other in real life, I’d want to be your friend. So, I really hope you won’t be offended at a bit of misplaced concern. If you are, though, just tell us to mind our own goddammned business, and we’ll respect that.

    S’aright?

  312. 312
    ppGaz says:

    OK, I’m convinced. You’re for real.

    What, the Foucalt Pendulum at West wasn’t a clincher?

    We were the only high school in the world that had one, I’m certain.

    Not only that, I am pretty sure that our Foucalt was the only power-assisted one on earth. It was rigged up with some electronics that kept it swinging indefinitely, which was pretty far out stuff in 1962.

    Did your class use the Navy building? By the time I got there, the school was grossly overcrowded. The Navy building was annexed. We were running three lunch periods.

    I was on the staff of the Sun Dial (newspaper) and the yearbook (the name escapes me now, but Lynda Day was the editor of the yearbook, because Mr. Zimmerman, the yearbook faculty sponsor, wanted her around all the time).

    The Westerner? Maybe that was it.

    Kenilworth: Principal, Ms. Tuttle

    Seventh grade: Ms. Schweitzer
    Eighth grade: Ms. Miles

    I didn’t go to Kenilworth all through grade school. For a while, I went to Judson.

  313. 313
    ppGaz says:

    Do you think we can do anything to help mene_etc out of his black hole?

    Cleary just needs some coffee and some breakfast, then let’s see how he is doing.

  314. 314
    ppGaz says:

    Narv, send me email. If you are still nervous about the exposure, just slap up a yahoo mail account with a phony name on it and shoot me mail. We just need an offline way to exchange some info.

  315. 315
    Krista says:

    mene_etc. honey, if you need to talk, drop me a line. I’ve created a faux e-mail identity for this. redkitten1975@yahoo.ca

  316. 316
    ppGaz says:

    I’ve created a faux e-mail identity for this.

    Good work. I posted my addy last night, let me know how it is going with Cleary. Narv hasn’t mailed me yet but Cleary did, so the address he posted definitely works.

  317. 317
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    Was that a Dark Tower reference?

    Sorry, I’m not that clever. I’m unfamiliar with the works of Stephen King. I never got around to him, really.

  318. 318
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    Bed is for the weak.

    How true that is. And how prophetic. I woke up on the living room floor. My back feels surprisingly good. If anyone here has back problems, evidently the cure is getting incredibly drunk, acting like a total jackass in front of complete strangers in the commentary section of a right-wing blog, then passing out on the floor with your head next to the stereo listening to Classic Gangsta rap.

    Works like a charm. I think. Sorry if I’m mistaken, it’s possible I’m still slightly smashed.

  319. 319
    ppGaz says:

    Cleary, good fellow, glad to see that you are posting this morning.

    Got your mail, thanks.

    Cheers,
    PG

  320. 320
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    Krista –
    Do you think we can do anything to help mene_etc out of his black hole?

    One man’s black hole is another man’s parlour. Careful what you say about my shanty, sir.

    Sorry if that makes no sense. I think I must still be drunk, I’m probably the only person around here who finds that last paragraph funny. There must be something wrong with me.

  321. 321
    ppGaz says:

    acting like a total jackass in front of complete strangers

    Just a creative way to make new friends.

    Now that you’ve made them, stop apologizing, it’s getting on my nerves. Remember, I can’t drink, so I’m stuck like this.

  322. 322
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    Menemene-man

    You can call me Cleary if you want, it doesn’t bother me.

    They used to call my brother Evercleary in the Army. Shows you where we’re coming from, here.

    “I’m not an alcoholic, I’m a drunk. Alcoholics go to meetings.”

  323. 323
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    Krista –
    I hope you’re right. He seems to be in serious pain and I can’t do anything except recommend medical help. Which, if I did, would probably set off a torrent of invective comparable to Katrina.

    Tosh and toddle, advise away.

    You’ll find me quite amiable when I’m sober-ish.

  324. 324
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    Narvy – I don’t know…I think he feels it’s an integral part of who he is. I think just knowing that we think he’s cool, and that we like him and want him to keep in touch…that might help.

    Yes, you’ve summed it up rather nicely. I’m an alcoholic until I die. Probably at age 31 or something.

    It breaks my friends’ hearts. Or so they say.

  325. 325
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    Just a creative way to make new friends.

    Now that you’ve made them, stop apologizing, it’s getting on my nerves. Remember, I can’t drink, so I’m stuck like this.

    If I were you, I’d drink anyway. Then I’d call your doctor and threaten to eat his goldfish. Or I’d come over and urinate on his front door.

    I’m fucking insane, though. You’d probably be wise not to behave in any fashion I’d recommend.

  326. 326
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    And I’m a girl, so the nuturing instinct tends to rear its head at inappropriate times.

    Mene_etc…seriously though, man. We think you’re awesome: smart, funny as hell, with some of the best biting, self-deprecating wit I’ve seen in my life. If we knew each other in real life, I’d want to be your friend. So, I really hope you won’t be offended at a bit of misplaced concern. If you are, though, just tell us to mind our own goddammned business, and we’ll respect that.

    S’aright?

    No problem at all. I’m rather flattered by the attention, quite frankly. But please don’t expect me to post on any other threads. My criminal record is already sullied enough without some online death threats at Defense Jizz or Darrell.

    This thread here is a liberal love-fest. I enjoy it immensely.

  327. 327
    Krista says:

    One man’s black hole is another man’s parlour

    I thought it funny as well, but that’s because I’m really perverted, and instantly read nefarious meaning into it.

    Cleary darlin’, good to see you’re functioning.

    We’ll probably have to take over some other dead thread at 2am in the morning at some point, just so save us the inutterable tedium of having to click “next page.”

  328. 328
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    I thought it funny as well, but that’s because I’m really perverted, and instantly read nefarious meaning into it.

    This is very interesting.

    Cleary darlin’, good to see you’re functioning.

    I suppose. Unfortunately, I have to go to work in about 3 hours, so today’s verbal sparrings will have to be relatively brief.

    We’ll probably have to take over some other dead thread at 2am in the morning at some point, just so save us the inutterable tedium of having to click “next page.”

    I forgot about that. Crap! Curse John Cole for continuing to post things! If he’d only stop posting on his own Goddamn blog, we could continue to control this thread until Doomsday without any interference from Defense Jizz and his ilk. Curses!

    Tearing my hair from my head and renting my garments into shreds,
    Oliver

  329. 329
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    Tearing my hair from my head and renting my garments into shreds,

    I think that should probably say, “rending.” Although if anyone wants to pay me money to borrow my old rags, they’re more than welcome to.

    Also, my block-quoting skills are nonexistent, Krista. I’m not a girl, and I have no nurturing instinct whatsoever. I pretty much exist to get drunk, and when sober to go to work and make more booze-money. Occasionally, a foolish young woman will fall for me, but that quickly fades once they learn my aforementioned Prime Directives. Or, maybe they get pissed at my failure to block-quote properly. I can’t say I’ve ever knowingly lost a girlfriend that way, but that doesn’t make it outside the realm of possibility. I’ve come to suspect that women aren’t always forthright when discussing my undateable tendencies with me.

    “But enough about me. Let’s talk about you. What do you think about me?”

  330. 330
    ppGaz says:

    Just bookmark the thread. That way you won’t have to use John’s list at all to find it.

    If you use IE, you can also just drop a shortcut to this thread onto your desktop.

  331. 331
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    Oh shit, I just realized we’ve hit “Next Page” status.

    Goodbye, peeps, it’s been fun knowing you. Jibber-jabbering at you, violating my own Code of lurkerdom. Keep it real, and keep fighting the good fight with Mr. Cole.

    Truly, terminally insane,
    Oliver Cleary

  332. 332
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    Just bookmark the thread. That way you won’t have to use John’s list at all to find it.

    If you use IE, you can also just drop a shortcut to this thread onto your desktop.

    Don’t let my age fool you, I’m quite computer illiterate.

    I’ll try and figure out how to do that, though. Thanks.

    This thread’s too good to abandon. We own this bitch, Comrades. Darrell is not welcome here, and Defense Jizz hasn’t shown his ass in quite a while. Ever since he figured out he didn’t know how to read, and hurled some frustrated invective at me before stomping off the playground with all his fancy new toys.

  333. 333
    Krista says:

    Tearing my hair from my head and renting my garments into shreds,

    Hulk ANGRY!!!

    Well, if you ever need a forthright female to interpret woman-speak for you, I’ll do my best.

    Narvy…ou es-tu?

  334. 334
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    Hulk ANGRY

    Hulk SMASH!

    Well, if you ever need a forthright female to interpret woman-speak for you, I’ll do my best.

    I may have to take you up on that at some point. No offense intended, but you are some confusing creatures. I think the last paragraph pretty much dove into the deepest levels of my capacity for social comprehension. Women are on a whole ‘nother level.

    Narvy…ou es-tu?

    What does John Cole think about the French? I’m not sure I’ve ever seen his thoughts on the subject.

  335. 335
    ppGaz says:

    What does John Cole think about the French?

    Oh, he engaged in some of the childish and gratuitous France-bashing that went on here in the US a while back, I think. I don’t remember the details.

    As I said to Oliver, I think John is majorly conflicted over Bush and the war in Iraq. He is in denial and pretty much won’t discuss the subject in any substantive way. He’s smart and will eventually figure it out, I think.

    French-wise, I love the food, the bread, and the wine. the language is beautiful to listen to but too hard for me to learn because I am too lazy. I did Latin and Spanish, and that’s about it for me. I would love to visit France, in the fall when it is not too hot. My dream trip is basically Britain-France-Italy, taking about 3 months in all.

  336. 336
    Krista says:

    I have no idea what he thinks of the French. Personally, I found them to be extremely congenial and helpful when I was there. I had to ask directions and help on several occasions, and they were nothing but kind.

  337. 337
    Krista says:

    Mind you, the fact that I was making an earnest attempt to communicate with them in their own language probably helped. I think most French people are fine with tourists, as long as they are polite, and don’t start acting like they expect everything to be the way it is at home. I heard more tourists bellyaching about the food, or the Métro, or what have you, and after a week, I was certainly tired of hearing them, so I can just imagine how the Parisiens felt.

  338. 338
    Krista says:

    In regards to John and the war, I think he is very conflicted. It’s tough when you’re held a certain position for years, and are suddenly starting to see hints that you’ve been betrayed by those in whom you believed. And of course, the people in here don’t make it any easier, ’cause they tug him in every which direction.

    I loooooooved France. Loved it. Would go back in a heartbeat. Paris was glorious, but expensive. But we went up to northern France, in a lovely town called Arras, and the prices were quite reasonable (for Europe), and we just felt like we were seeing the real France. We went to Vimy ridge too, which was very powerful.

  339. 339
    Krista says:

    BRB – I’m going to go shower now.

    Oliver, stop thinking what you’re thinking.

  340. 340
    ppGaz says:

    the people in here don’t make it any easier, ‘cause they tug him in every which direction.

    Yes, but all due respect to the “other side”, only one direction gets him to any kind of intellectual integrity.

    The war is not supportable on any basis that is congruent with any model of intellectual integrity. It is only supportable on the basis of emotion, and/or proof-by-assertion arguments.

    I hate to sound like a know it all, but what I said about war … yesterday? … isn’t debatable. There is only one morally valid reason to start a war, and that is to defend the country against a proximate threat to land or lives. No other excuse is acceptable, and no other rationale will yield the support of the people for a long period of time.

    That’s why Vietnam was a debacle, and Iraq will be one too. Neither war passes the simple test.

  341. 341
    ppGaz says:

    I’m old, but not dead. Oliver is not the only one with those thoughts around here.

  342. 342
    Krista says:

    Sorry…didn’t mean to make you feel left out.

    You’re both irredeemable perverts.

    Better?

  343. 343
    ppGaz says:

    Better?

    Yes. Thanks.

    Especially for the “irredeemable” part.

  344. 344
    Krista says:

    There is only one morally valid reason to start a war, and that is to defend the country against a proximate threat to land or lives.

    To START a war…yes. I completely agree with you there. To FIGHT a war…well…sometimes it is necessary to defend other countries. But only to defend them from an external force, and to defend them with no eye towards trying to change how they actually run their own country.

    In other words, WWII. We didn’t start that one, but entering into it was completely justifiable, no?

  345. 345
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    Oh, he engaged in some of the childish and gratuitous France-bashing that went on here in the US a while back, I think. I don’t remember the details.

    As I said to Oliver, I think John is majorly conflicted over Bush and the war in Iraq. He is in denial and pretty much won’t discuss the subject in any substantive way. He’s smart and will eventually figure it out, I think.

    French-wise, I love the food, the bread, and the wine. the language is beautiful to listen to but too hard for me to learn because I am too lazy. I did Latin and Spanish, and that’s about it for me. I would love to visit France, in the fall when it is not too hot. My dream trip is basically Britain-France-Italy, taking about 3 months in all.

    I lied, I’m back for a minute.

    Yeah, Boycott France! Whoo-hoo, hick motherfucker jingoist xenophobes! Teach those Frogs a lesson by not gracing their country with your presence. That’ll learn ’em.

    I think John’s intelligent enough that He’s already figured out this war. He can’t admit it yet, but He knows how much He fucked up by blindly supporting this Administration.

    Personally, I’ve despised Bush ever since Carla Faye Tucker. I wouldn’t trust him to hold a door open. About the only thing he did that I’ve ever agreed with was when he invaded Afghanistan, and even that got bungled up and screwy. Worthlesss, useless, incompetent, and surrounded by hynotized sheep. I wouldn’t trade places with him for all the whiskey in Ireland.

    I’ve never been to Britain or Italy, only France. I’d have to agree, I think the French are wonderful, warm-hearted, intelligent people. They love to argue politics, too, and some of them managed to come at me from the Left, which was surprising. I’m a pretty hard guy to ambush from the Left side of the aisle in America, but in France I think I’d fall right in the middle politically.

  346. 346
    ppGaz says:

    Yes, I meant “enter” more than “start.”

    Or maybe “enter” in general, and especially, “start.”

    Whichever answer makes me look better.

    No, really, your point is well taken. Let the record show that I meant “enter” and not “start”, and that I’m glad I thought of it ;-)

  347. 347
    Krista says:

    I’m glad you thought of it too. Your wisdom is inspiring.

    Oliver…glad to see you. Did you have your nap? And I agree with you…any country full of people who like to eat good food, drink good wine, argue passionately (but not personally), kiss in public, and revere their dogs…well, that’s my kind of place.

  348. 348
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    Mind you, the fact that I was making an earnest attempt to communicate with them in their own language probably helped. I think most French people are fine with tourists, as long as they are polite, and don’t start acting like they expect everything to be the way it is at home. I heard more tourists bellyaching about the food, or the Métro, or what have you, and after a week, I was certainly tired of hearing them, so I can just imagine how the Parisiens felt.

    “This country sucks. Where’s the McDonald’s? Pour me some more wine, you fucking Frog. Why do the French hate us?”

  349. 349
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    BRB – I’m going to go shower now.

    Oliver, stop thinking what you’re thinking.

    This was too easy. I’m going to refrain from commenting.

  350. 350
    Krista says:

    This country sucks. Where’s the McDonald’s? Pour me some more wine, you fucking Frog. Why do the French hate us?”

    Precisely. A lot of it wasn’t quite that blatant, but it was definitely there. As well, some tourists displayed the charming tendency, if they weren’t being understood, to just speak more loudly. I had problems communicating sometimes, especially when I had to ask a pharmacist in Arras for something for my boyfriend’s grandfather’s bowel complaints, but I found the phrase, “Avez-vous une dictionnaire Francais-Anglais?” to be extremely useful. Most shopkeepers do keep one behind the counter.

  351. 351
    ppGaz says:

    Thred alert. No more mister nice guy for me today, I am sticking it to the “Portrait of a Wingnut” thread.

    Gotta tell you, Cole has the ability to be a truly shitty person, and this is one of those times. The guy has no shame.

  352. 352
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    Yes, but all due respect to the “other side”, only one direction gets him to any kind of intellectual integrity.

    True, but the other side has incredibly amusing rationalizations. Also, where would we be without the incessant ad hominem sniping?

    The war is not supportable on any basis that is congruent with any model of intellectual integrity. It is only supportable on the basis of emotion, and/or proof-by-assertion arguments.

    Saddam Hussein was an asshole. Ergo, every conceivable measure undertaken in regards to his overthrow is morally justified. And nothing you can say will make me think this war wasn’t worth it, so shut the Hell up while I run away with my fingers in my ears, you America-hating prick.

    If that argument doesn’t work, there are also the 20 or 30 other arguments in support of this war. My favorite was when a neocon buddy of mine came out and said to me (in August of 2003, mind you) that we needed to be in Iraq because we had to light someone up, we had to bully the Arab world into submission. It was breathtaking honesty, to say the least. I haven’t talked to that friend in a while, but I’m sure nowadays he has some entirely different rationale for supporting the campaign of preemptive intimidation also known as Operation Iraqi Freedom.

    I hate to sound like a know it all, but what I said about war … yesterday? … isn’t debatable. There is only one morally valid reason to start a war, and that is to defend the country against a proximate threat to land or lives. No other excuse is acceptable, and no other rationale will yield the support of the people for a long period of time.

    That’s why Vietnam was a debacle, and Iraq will be one too. Neither war passes the simple test.

    I mostly agree. But the old Clintonian do-gooder in me also wants to make an exception for wars fought to end current, ongoing acts of genocide. Provided we can round up serious allies to do so, allies willing to foot the bill and do half the heavy lifting. This is why I supported the War in Kosovo, even though it made me queasy and even though it brought Yeltsin to the brink of nuking us.

    This is also why people who support Operation Iraqi Freedom on humanitarian interventionist grounds have yet to offer me a compelling argument for why we shouldn’t invade Sudan and put an end to the killing in Darfur.

    And now, I hafta go to work. I’ll stop by around 3 am or so, and see how you people are doing. Keep up the good work.

  353. 353
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    Precisely. A lot of it wasn’t quite that blatant, but it was definitely there. As well, some tourists displayed the charming tendency, if they weren’t being understood, to just speak more loudly. I had problems communicating sometimes, especially when I had to ask a pharmacist in Arras for something for my boyfriend’s grandfather’s bowel complaints, but I found the phrase, “Avez-vous une dictionnaire Francais-Anglais?” to be extremely useful. Most shopkeepers do keep one behind the counter.

    Everyone in the world speaks English, if you speak it loudly enough and slowly enough.

    They only use those other languages when we’re around, to fuck with us and confuse us.

  354. 354
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    Thred alert. No more mister nice guy for me today, I am sticking it to the “Portrait of a Wingnut” thread.

    Gotta tell you, Cole has the ability to be a truly shitty person, and this is one of those times. The guy has no shame.

    I’ll have to check it out later. If Cole’s being a dick, keep up the fight. Stick it to Him.

    Shit, I’m late for work. Ciao, Comrades.

  355. 355
    ppGaz says:

    a neocon buddy of mine came out and said to me (in August of 2003, mind you) that we needed to be in Iraq because we had to light someone up, we had to bully the Arab world into submission.

    I know you are not making that up, I have friends just like him.

    They are dead serious, they advocate nuking a large portion of the Arab world to put an end to our miseries there.

  356. 356
    Krista says:

    ppGaz – I’ve headed over there, and will back you up as best I can with my limited knowledge, my friend.

  357. 357
    ppGaz says:

    I think it’s a lost cause. DG has latched onto this and he is a skilled weasel.

    Cindy Sheehan is a pretty scattered person. The righties are going to play her like a drum.

    I generally don’t get rattled by these issues, but this is one area where I do get rattled. I get too angry and lose focus.

  358. 358
    Narvy says:

    My apologies, guys. (I consider Krista one of the guys). I’ve spent all my allotted posting today on the Good Economic News thread, which got pretty funny at times. Krista was there, too, but managed to find time to come over here.

    I would really like to exchange e-mail with all three of you. I set up an Earthlink account for that this morning, but I haven’t tested it yet.

    ppG: I don’t recall the Foucault pendulum, but there’s a nagging thought about it in a subterranean cavern of my brain. If it was there when I was, I don’t really remember it. I have no idea what the Navy building was. Can you provide me with something to feed Google maps? I might have known it under another name. I too was on the staff of the Sun Dial under the inept tutelage of Roswell B. Willard, and I was on the yearbook, too. I can’t think of the name either, but I have my senior yearbook at home and can check. I recognize the name of Ms. Schweitzer, the others not.

    I won’t be posting again for a bit, but I will send my e-mail address to pp and Cleary. Have you put yours up Krista? If so, I’ve overlooked it.

    Bye for now.

  359. 359
    Krista says:

    ppGaz – Yeah, you can’t lose your temper with them, man. Then, instead of having to address your arguments, they just latch on to the anger, and avoid your arguments altogether.

    Narvy – it’s redkitten1975@yahoo.ca

    DG IS a skilled weasel isn’t he? He’s a lot harder to ignore/write off than Darrell.

  360. 360
    ppGaz says:

    narv,

    The Navy building was actually a set of buildings on Thomas Road just west of the main student parking lot. Also to the west of the Auditorium. I forget when the Auditorium was built, but it was there when I enrolled in 1959.

    Sometime around 1958-9, maybe, the school annexed these buildings and began holding classes in there.

    There were also some barracks buildings out behind the stadium which fronted 19th avenue, they looked like equipment storage sheds, which were converted into classrooms. No cooling, unbearably hot in Sept and May.

  361. 361
    ppGaz says:

    Krista, well apparently I not only blew my cool at the one thread, I missed out entirely on the Economic News thread which looks like it was a lot of fun.

    So not a great day for me.

    I have a long list of excuses though, so I’ll send them along when the mood strikes me.

    Thanks for the help over there though.

  362. 362
    Krista says:

    I wasn’t as much help as I should have been…didn’t feel well-informed enough to give a good, strong argument. (Not that it stops most people on this blog, but why set myself up?)

  363. 363
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    ppGaz – Yeah, you can’t lose your temper with them, man. Then, instead of having to address your arguments, they just latch on to the anger, and avoid your arguments altogether.

    Although, to be fair, I think you gave as well as you got. From what I read earlier, anyway. I never saw how(if) any of it got resolved, or if Defense Jizz continued to conduct his seance with Casey Sheehan.

    I also think you piss Defense Jizz off every bit as much as he angers you. I won’t continue to post in front of the bastard, I know a little bit too much about the laws regarding terroristic threats and I know all about the permanence of these posts, too. One idea might be to simply ignore all his posts, and pretend they never happened. Easier said than done, but I think it could piss him off more than words can convey.

    He’s a better close-in fighter. He doesn’t rant and rave about how all the Left, channeled through you personally, are stupid cowards; he finds something personal about you to use as a weapon, then he jams it in.

    Another reason I couldn’t post around him. He already knows worlds more about me than I’ll ever know about him. The playing field is far from level. I’d be reduced to saying things like, “You’re not worth the jizz your father sprayed into your sister’s twat.” Every bit as mean and vulgar as what he’d throw back at me, but not necessarily accurate enough to really sting him personally. (How do I know he even had a sister? Perhaps he was conceived in vitro, and had no father he could ever recognize. Which led to feelings of loneliness and insecurity, which led him to embrace Republican ideology with immense fervor. But I think I’m going too far with this thing, here.)

  364. 364
    ppGaz says:

    I also think you piss Defense Jizz off every bit as much as he angers you.

    That’s what I’m shooting for!

    (Krista: It’s a guy thing. I know it’s irrational).

  365. 365
    Krista says:

    I know…it just amuses AND exasperates me because it seems like every man’s inner child is never that far below the surface.

    Oh well, I can’t really talk, ’cause one of these days, one of these assholes is going to figure out how to push my buttons, and that’ll be the end of my grand plan to remain composed and empathetic at all times. Mind you, I really don’t have much of a temper, so I think it’ll take a lot…my boyfriend and I have been together for four years, and he’s only once seen me genuinely explode with rage. (It was at my mother, not at him.)

  366. 366
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    That’s what I’m shooting for!

    (Krista: It’s a guy thing. I know it’s irrational).

    He might end up shooting for you if you’re not careful. He seems pretty high-strung and nasty. Which is, of course, why it was a perfectly sensible decision on my part to give him my full name and hometown. Of course, if I turn up dead in the next few weeks the police will have a wonderful mens rea to work with. And shortly thereafter, America will have one less dangerous gun-toting psychopath running around on the nation’s right-wing blogs.

    Ah, who am I kidding? The guy’s a pussy. It’s easy to speak bravely when you’re arguing with a monitor. Sorry for wasting your time even speculating that he might be something other than a coward. Foolishness. I’m too sober. I write better when I’m drunk.

    I forgot to respond to this last night, though:

    I know you are not making that up, I have friends just like him.

    They are dead serious, they advocate nuking a large portion of the Arab world to put an end to our miseries there.

    Yeah, a different right-wing friend said that he wanted us to nuke Fallujah. Wouldn’t that have made Operation Iraqi Freedom a stunning success? (Bush never did say what they’d be free from, did we? Free from the daily anguish of having to exist, I suppose. Compassionate conservativism in action.)

    Anything else I could say about this subject would only be an even sicker joke than what I’ve already posted. People talk about reducing vast swathes of humanity to radioactive ash as nonchalantly as if they were ordering a beer and a burger from a barstool. I guess it’s very easy to be flippant when you’re talking about annihilating the citizenry of foreign, heathen, (nonwhite) nations, though. Their lives aren’t worth as much anyway. 1 American death = 1000 Iraqi deaths. Some of my right-wing buddies have also, in their cups, sort of admitted they think about it this way.

    I guess I respect the honesty of my right-wing friends. It’s very hard to respect their opinions.

  367. 367
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    Oh well, I can’t really talk, ‘cause one of these days, one of these assholes is going to figure out how to push my buttons, and that’ll be the end of my grand plan to remain composed and empathetic at all times. Mind you, I really don’t have much of a temper, so I think it’ll take a lot…my boyfriend and I have been together for four years, and he’s only once seen me genuinely explode with rage. (It was at my mother, not at him.)

    That’s some pretty impressive self-restraint, actually. I tend to fly off the handle with substantially greater frequency. In case you couldn’t tell already.

    But when the Defense Jizzes of this site HAVE thrown you into a blind rage, what has this really achieved for them? So they can point at you and say, “Look, the Left is angry and irrational?” These are the same assholes who’ve been screaming at the top of their lungs for 40 years, who’s going to believe them when they talk about emotional irrationality?

    Or maybe I’m just being naive. Some will believe them. Hopefully, not 51% of the American electorate, but you never know.

  368. 368
    Krista says:

    I think my wanting to stay cool and composed is due to more self-involved reasons. It allows me to be self-congratulatory and feel superior to my obscenity-spewing adversary. Not noble, but there you have it. Plus, I think it’s almost a force of habit now. I spent my high school years on the debate team, so it’s second nature to try to argue as rationally as I can.

    Besides, someone has to keep their head and try to calm you guys down when you get your Fruit of the Looms in a twist.

  369. 369
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    Bush never did say what they’d be free from, did we

    This sentence sounds almost too asinine to explain, but here goes…

    Writing in a hurry. Not trying to conflate “we, the people,” with George Bush. Although a slight majority among the slight majority of Americans who bothered to vote in 2004 liked him slightly better than John Kerry. One must concede that.

    If that ain’t a man-date, I don’t know what is.

  370. 370
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    I think my wanting to stay cool and composed is due to more self-involved reasons. It allows me to be self-congratulatory and feel superior to my obscenity-spewing adversary. Not noble, but there you have it. Plus, I think it’s almost a force of habit now. I spent my high school years on the debate team, so it’s second nature to try to argue as rationally as I can.

    Besides, someone has to keep their head and try to calm you guys down when you get your Fruit of the Looms in a twist.

    I suppose you’re right. But don’t forget that when you’re dealing with groups of men, 90% of the game is territoriality and possessiveness. The essence of territoriality is demarcating and defending your territory. On the most primal level, that’s accomplished by urination. It’s awful hard to urinate without getting your Fruit of the Looms bent slightly out of shape. So you see where we’re coming from, here.

    I’ve had too many “May it please the Court,” “Your Honor,” clean-cut debates in the last few years not to unwind and get obscene when it comes to blogging-time. I basically consider blog posts to be about one notch above going to a rowdy bar and throwing beer bottles at one anothers’ heads. But I do see your point, some portion of this has to be about rationality and accuracy. Otherwise we might as well just have blog commentaries where everyone utters mindless, senseless strings of obscenities at everyone else for no apparent reason.

    And that ends my evening tirade. I thank you for your time.

  371. 371
    Krista says:

    Good point. Sometimes it is fun to just tear somebody a new one. I think it’s just that I’m a complete chickenshit. I figure that if I remain civil, then I reduce the odds of someone breaking proverbial beer bottles over my head. one of these days, just to amuse you, though, I’ll start swearing like a sailor, okay? :)

  372. 372
    menemenetekelupharsin says:

    Good point. Sometimes it is fun to just tear somebody a new one. I think it’s just that I’m a complete chickenshit. I figure that if I remain civil, then I reduce the odds of someone breaking proverbial beer bottles over my head. one of these days, just to amuse you, though, I’ll start swearing like a sailor, okay?

    Sounds good to me.

    Mind you, I’m still drunk. I passed the fucking Bar!!!!!!!!!!!!

  373. 373

    […] In DeLay’s defense, he was probably too busy trimming all of the fat from the budget to notice his buddies were breaking the law. […]

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  1. […] In DeLay’s defense, he was probably too busy trimming all of the fat from the budget to notice his buddies were breaking the law. […]

  2. UNCoRRELATED says:

    Fiscal Restraint

    Remember when Republicans were the party of fiscal restraint? Nope, I don’t either.

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