Cross posted at Red State is this summation of my thoughts on Dick Durbin, titled “Censure! Thank Goodness the Adults Are In Charge…”
OF course, some agree with me that Durbin should not be censured:
I called Senator Dick Durbin’s office this morning at (202) 224-2152 and, after being on hold for a while, laid out the reasons why I think Durbin should resign from the Senate. His staffer told me that as of this morning, he is standing by his statement comparing American soldiers to the Nazis, the Communists and the Khmer Rouge.
Deep thoughts from the blog of the year, for y’all.
Do Sean Hannity and guys like this know they are partisan hacks and they just don’t care, or do they think they are being fair and just calling things as they see them?
Geek, Esq.
An extremely thoughtful post, John.
Kudos both to you and the folks over at redstate. Even when I violently disagree with stuff like this site and redstate, I can appreciate the thoughtfulness and honesty behind the views expressed.
John Cole
You didn’t read the comments section. They’ll be tarring and feathering me in no time
norbizness
To answer your question, especially for the two examples cited, it’s “don’t care” in a romp.
Geek, Esq.
Well, any site with diarists will have its share of wingnuts/moonbats.
I guess that’s one of the great things about the diary format–it encourages more thoughtful discussions instead of echo-chamber nonsense.
It also reminds us centrists that we do have wingnuts and moonbats in our parties. Atrios was stunned–stunned!–to hear the Washington Post talk about people romanticizing the Iraqi resistance.
Had he never heard of Michael “Minutemen” Moore?
demimondian
What Durbin said was stupid. As a Republican (not an American — please, put your partisanship ahead of your patriotism, just for once, would you?), how can you possibly not use what he said against us? Particularly since it’s really important that people not focus on the content of his question?
C’mon — it’s the right tactic. We both know it. It’s unfortunate that it is, in some fundamental sense, bad for the country — but, really, wouldn’t letting us dems back into power also be, in some fundamental sense, bad for the country? Which is more important?
Stormy70
He should be run out of his Whip position, though. But the Dems will have to do that bit of housecleaning, so I won’t hold my breath. But if the Dems want to be known as the Terrorists’ Rights Party, I have no problem with it.
vnjagvet
John:
I believe that there is a difference between legislators’ legitimate questioning of tactics and strategy (which I believe both Democratic and Republican Senators are voicing) and a Senate Leader specifically slandering U.S. Troops by, during what I believe to be wartime, comparing them directly or indirectly by inference with the troops of Hitler, Stalin or Pol Pot.
When Trent Lott made a similar (but less offensive) comparison in an unofficial statement at Strom Thurman’s birthday party, he was symbolically tarred and feathered by the Press, and forced to resign from his Senate leadership position.
I think at least Senator Durbin should specifically and expressly apologise to the troops and to those he slandered. I didn’t think it was necessary for Lott to resign, and I agree with you that Durbin should not be forced to do so. I also agree with you that censure is inappropriate.
The fact that Senatorial Immunity insulates him from liability does not mean he should be free from public opprobrium for what I consider to be an extremelhy ill-advised turn of phrase.
BTW, it looked to me like he, like Lott, was adlibbing these editorial comments in an aside as he was reciting the facts from the FBI report. Lott was not excused because he adlibbed, nor should Durbin be. But he should make more than a unapologetic apology, and the press should demand it. That the press hasn’t and won’t shows its bias.
Mike S
Funny. After reading your post and comments I came back and see Stormy70’s comment. Some people just don’t get it and refuse to even try.
And to use Stormy’s reasoning, I don’t mind if the GOP wants to be known as the party of torture. I just wish they wouldn’t take our country down with them.
BumperStickerist
too bad the Senate Staffer said, after hearing the carefully laid out case for Durbin to resign:
Staffer: “You’re from Minnesoooooooooota, right”
Powerlineblog: “You betcha”
Staffer: “Fuck off”
Mike S
Tom Cole claimed that 48% of the country voted like they were voting for Hitler. Should we call for him to resign? No, just call him an idiot. Compare what he said to what Durbin said.
“Cole Claims a Vote Against Bush Is a Vote For Hitler.” KTOK radio in Oklahoma blared last year.
“Republican Congressman Tom Cole claims a vote against the `re-election’ of President Bush is like supporting Adolph Hitler during World War Two,” the station reported. “It’s what he said recently before a meeting of Canadian County Republicans.”
Cole later codified his statement, saying through a spokesperson: “What do you think Hitler would have thought if Roosevelt would’ve lost the election in 1944?”
Richard Bennett
Durbin insulted Hitler, Stalin, and Pol Pot with the claim that their torture techniques are as wussy as ours. He owes all them boys an apology, except they’re dead and don’t care.
He should apologize and be censured right after Bill Frist owns up to the fact that diagnosis by videotape isn’t good medicine.
ARROW
“Terrorists’ Rights Party”
I think it’s wonderful that Senator Dick is concerned for such a worthy group. Somebody has to look out for their ‘rights,” whatever those rights might be. After all, he has taken care of the other injustices in the world, the wholesale murder of blacks in the Sudan, etc. This is an excellent use of his time.
W.B. Reeves
John,
An excellent piece. I think you are right about this being a detour to nowhere for the GOP, et al. Witness the enthusiasm expressed for the “terrorist rights party” meme. A clear sign of sclerotic thinking.
Personally, I suspect a rope-a-dope strategy behind Durban’s remarks. The more people harp on it, the more it becomes a question of context, the more people are likely to read the FBI memo. I wonder how many of these folks will be impressed by the plaint that “we don’t even know if the FBI memo is true.”
Regarding question vis a vis Sean Hannity, I know from personal experience that he is a self conscious hack.
Stormy70
What FBI memo? The one Durbin misquoted? Would someone please produce this memo so I can read it myself. Durbin is too stupid to pull a rope-a-dope. He just tarred the military with the trifecta of Nazis, gulags, and Pol Pot. I see the Dope and he hung himself on his own Rope.
Sean Hannity is a hack, though, on that much we agree.
Rick
Stormy,
Hughhewitt.com has a link to the memo. The Republic totters.
Cordially…
Mike S
Stormy70
Let me get this straight. You haven’t read the memo yet accuse Durbin of misquoting it? If you want to call someone stupid you should be sure you don’t say something stupid while doing it.
Here is the link, pdf, from John’s post at RedState.
http://www.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/FBI.121504.5053.pdf
ARROW
“A clear sign of sclerotic thinking.”
This is the exact phrase I would use to describe the type of thinking taking place on the part of people that seem to automatically ASSUME Senator Dick knows of what he speaks. People that ASSUME the worst when it comes to America, or its defenders, and the best when it comes to her avowed enemies. In other words, leftists like you.
As for rope-a-dope strategy, the dope in this case might turn out to be Senator Dick. I doubt his unconscious constituency will fail to reelect him, but this issue highlights what many Democrats hold dear… the rights of terrorists and others that hate America.
Thanks for the recommendation on Hannity. I might have to start watching him on a regular basis.
Mike S
spARROW
You and Hannity are two peas in a pod. Idiot talking points are your stock and trade.
Anderson
I don’t think Hannity et al. have any use for “fairness,” which they interpret as “the condition of lacking the will to victory.”
So, no, they don’t think they’re being fair. It’s all about being unfair. Because they’ve discovered that’s how you win, in a country where things are falling apart and the center isn’t holding:
Welcome to Yeats’s world.
ARROW
Mike S:
Better to have idiot talking points, then to be the idiot that you obviously are.
Why is it you waste time with your juvenile name calling routine, rather than address the “talking points?” Could it be you have nothing to say?
Anderson
Hey, Cole, just looked at the RS comments. There are some nasty m.f.’s over there. Maybe some of them are actually jihadists pretending to be conservatives? I would like to think so.
Congrats to you & Trevino for staying focused & having consciences.
Mike S
Oh little spAAROW. Your talking points aren’t worth addressing. “Dems hate America” is akin to “You are a doo doo head.” Both appeal to the childishness of the children that use them.
ARROW
Mike S:
Thanks for the confiramtion…you have nothing to say.
ARROW
“The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are filled with passionate intensity.”
According to Yeats’s scale, I rate Senator Dick’s performance in the Senate when he slandered his own country as the WORST. It sounded as if he possessed all conviction of that which he spoke, and he was certainly filled with passionate intensity.
Mike S
Is this where I say “I’m rubber, you’re glue…?”
ppgaz
Tempest in a whistling teapot.
There’s a ballgame on.
Geek, Esq.
Arrow:
Someone with your political convictions has never heard of Hannity?
JC: I’m sure the guys at Pauerlein believe every single thing they type. There are plenty of people on the left with high IQ’s, advanced degrees, yada yada yada who KNOW that Kerry won the 2004 election, but that it was stolen by DIEBOLD.
Hinderaker, btw, thinks that evolution has been scientifically disproven.
dagon
john,
“You didn’t read the comments section. They’ll be tarring and feathering me in no time”
–actually, i hope that YOU are reading your comments. remarks by stormy, arrow and rick are merely examples of the cerebral disconnect required by so-called ‘conservatives’ to support the acions of the bush regime these days.
sadly, it didn’t just get this bad with the imbruglio over durbin’s comments. it has been this bad, this cynical….this bugshit crazy since jump-street. and i think you know it.
peace
Marc
Stormy, just out of curiosity — if you think Durbin should be run out of his position as Dem Whip for making an analogy to Nazis, then I’ll assume you’ve also called for Rick Santorum to step down as GOP Conference Chair, since he compared Democrats to Hitler for preserving the filibuster?
ARROW
“Someone with your political convictions has never heard of Hannity?”
I have never said that I had not heard of Hannity. If I did, that was an error on my part. I’ve heard of him, and I’ve watched parts of his show on tv. But to say that he speaks for me would be inaccurate as well. IMO, he goes overboard on some issues (too much passion). I have not watched him recently, so I can’t say where he’s at on the present issue. And for that matter, I don’t care.
Mike S:
I don’t about you being rubber, but I’m beginning to wish that your mother had insisted upon the use of a rubber.
Geek, Esq.
By the way, those who think that forcing prisoners to wallow in their own feces is just a harmless fraternity prank should google the phrase “excremental assault.”
You’ll NEVER guess who pioneered its use.
Sav
Deep thoughts from the blog of the year, for y’all.
Wow, disagreeing with you now leads to sarcastic comments almost tinged with jealousy. You really have changed, and not for the better.
ARROW
“just a harmless fraternity prank”
I don’t happen to believe that anything about the war on terror is fraternal. The people that would like to see the end of America are my brothers only in the larger biblical sense, and I’m not that religious. I don’t believe in sending money to them to hopefully placate their leaders, and I don’t believe in sitting around waiting for them to exercise more of their brotherly love in the name of Allah. If we can get information from them by making them uncomfortably cold or hot, or by making them, as you put it, “wallow in their own feces,” then I am willing to offend what would otherwise be my humanistic sensibilities.
Note that I am not advocating death or disfigurement. And from what I know, there have been no death at Gitmo.
MI
Just a note about the torture issue that seems to have been lost in the last few days. As far as I know, the majority of experts don’t think torture even works, that in fact it can be counterproductive.
If you’re not comfortable or persuaded by a moral argument against torture, how about a practical one?
I don’t know enough about it to speak at length here, but maybe someone does?
John Cole
Sav- Resign?
Resign?
I should take that comment seriously?
ARROW
MI:
The point of Senator Dick
Nancy
Well..
I asked you a week ago why I have never seen a post from you over at Redstate.
I’m glad you did. Redstate is not what it was, moderate Republicans are dismissed at best and people from the left have been for the most part run off or banned. I don’t post there anymore, it’s become an echo chamber. Glad to see Trevino backed you up.
Just wanted to say there are a lot of Republicans out there who agree with what you have been saying…especially this:
Boy, that guy Shadx is a piece of work, I think he is suposed to be the enforcer. The guy shows up for the first time less than a month ago, he has never posted a diary or story. He just rates down people he disagrees with and writes really nasty comments
scs
You gotta admit, Hannity is good at what he does. He’s not stupid, as I saw Imus proclaim one morning on his show (fyi, he also called Colmes ugly). He has a way of cutting to the chase that makes most of his guests uncomfortable and hence compelling to watch.
However, I think like most people, and probably most people on here, he is involved in group think. Its ‘our team versus your team’ mentality. That seems to be how most humans operate. You can’t blame him for doing something everyone else does but just doing it louder and more noticeably.
MI
ARROW, I know that’s what’s being discussed, that was my point, that in the midst of this silly, distracting and (mostly) politically driven brouhaha over what Durbin said (or in this case, didn’t say), torture itself looms as the larger, more profound issue. And one aspect of the torture issue is whether it’s even affective, let alone morally justified or not.
Just trying to broaden the discussion..
scs
And by the way, I would like to see less postings, hundreds of them I must have seen here, decrying the “torture” at the prisons and how we have to act in “accordance to the history of decency”, and a few more postings on some practical suggestion as to what we can do with the prisoners. I made my practical suggestions already, my duty is done.
I think everyone has too much fun getting all high and mighty over this than to actually think about solving the problem.
ARROW
“But we also have an obligation to ourselves and to the rest of the world to treat these detainees humanely, lawfully, and in accordance to the history of decency that I proudly associate with the United States. To do otherwise is to stain our dignity and our honor, as well as our reputation and good standing in the world.”
Everything has a context, and very few people would argue with the sentiments expressed by John Cole in absence of a context that could directly affect them or their loved ones. What would you be willing to do to protect people you value?
Personally, I don’t think we should engage in techniques to get information that have long-term physical effects. Inherent in that comment is my lack of concern for the mental effects that may be visited upon people caught in terrorist acts, or acts by people that harbor and support terrorists. In a perfect world (textbook, classroom, hypothetical situation), nobody would have to be locked up in the first place because nobody would have to worry about some idiot flying a plane into a building because he didn’t agree with elements of our culture (you know, women’s rights, homosexual rights, pornography, etc., etc.).
Finally, I don’t think it will matter to the world what we do at Gitmo. They are going to believe what they want to believe based on their predispositions to America. Much of the world has an unfounded hatred for America, which as far as I can tell, is based on ignorance and the spread of slanderous lies by people such as Senator Dick.
Kimmitt
Redstate is not what it was, moderate Republicans are dismissed at best and people from the left have been for the most part run off or banned.
Um, Tacitus founded RedState because he was pissed off at how moderate tacitus.org was. If there was a brief moment in which a sane human being could post at RedState, it was entirely by accident.
MI
I view Red State as a generally moderate site, especially compared to scary shit like Little Green Footballs…maybe politically speaking it’s not amazingly moderate, but it’s a lot better than what’s out there if you want a Republican perspective on the given issue of the day.
Mike S
They are going to believe what they want to believe based on their predispositions to America. Much of the world has an unfounded hatred for America, which as far as I can tell, is based on ignorance and the spread of slanderous lies by people such as Senator Dick.
Treating thew prisoners the way we have only solidifies how they feel. If we want to win the war on terror we’re going to have to find ways to change a lot of opinions.
Here’s one way we did it in Indonesia.
Good ship Mercy healsbodies, wins hearts, minds
Friday, June 17, 2005
We hope readers saw the story about the USNS Mercy, an American naval hospital ship that has done wonderful work in tsunami-torn areas half a world away.
…The Mercy is an enormous vessel. It’s 900 feet long, has a dozen operating rooms and can take care of a thousand patients.
snip
All that changed after the tsunami devastated Southeast Asia last Dec. 26. The Navy responded, but it needed a lot of help. Project HOPE is a Virginia-based health education and humanitarian aid organization that takes part in medical programs in 35 countries on five continents.
snip
The ship sailed all over the South Pacific doing its healing of body and mind. In less than two months, the Mercy apparently had made an enormous impact on Indonesian public opinion. Rosenfeld called attention to a BBC poll taken before the tsunami. Roughly 70 percent of Indonesians had viewed America unfavorably. A recent survey taken by the Heritage Foundation showed a virtual reversal of those numbers.
“I have never felt so proud to be a physician and an American,” Rosenfeld wrote. “There are important lessons for us to learn from this experience. We can reverse the hostility that much of the world feels against America simply by performing such humanitarian acts.”
http://www.mlive.com/news/kzgazette/index.ssf?/base/columns-1/1119023425102730.xml
I’m sure some nitwit will call me a “bleading heart liberal” or some such thing but before you dismiss this out of hand remember that we spend a billion+ bucks a week, iirc, in Iraq. We send billions more to other regimes in the ME that are hated by their own people. All of that makes us more hated, not less. But by lending tangable aid to Indonesia, the largest Muslim pop. in the world, we flipped opinions to the opposite of where they were.
ARROW
Mike S:
I agree that we should be sensitive to world opinion and believe it was a good thing we did for the tsunami victims. I personally contributed. But how does Senator Durbin’s ill-advised, slanderous comments, help us garner goodwill in the world? They do not.
All he’s accomplished is to fire up his anti-war base at the expense of the U.S. military’s reputation and give our avowed enemies propaganda to use to our detriment. IMO, his target was Bush (politics, in other words, which is generally okay). But there is no way to avoid making our military look like subhumans in the process. I don’t think that the people that put their lives on the line to protect America should be used as political cannon fodder.
a friend
Oh Dear
Front page at Dailykos again
The Disenfranchised Voter
Arrow, you do realize that noone here takes you seriously because you have already showed you are out-of-touch with reality. You actually think that Durbin was calling the Troops themselves Nazis. And you also indictated that you support torture:
“Personally, I don’t think we should engage in techniques to get information that have long-term physical effects.”
Short-term physically effects–such as beating the living shit of out someone–is prefectly fine though?
Thankfully, you and your ilk are the small minority.
ARROW
The Disenfranchised Voter:
What’s your solution to dealing with terrorists? What would you do if your loved ones’ hometown was threatened by terrorists and you were in charge of getting information that could stop the loss of their lives?
That’s reality pal. It’s practical, not idealistic. You want to live in your little fish bowl, go ahead. That’s the prerogative you have because others are looking out for you. Sometimes I wish they weren’t, so you and your ilk could get a taste of the people you seem so bent on protecting.
“Short-term physically effects–such as beating the living shit of out someone–is prefectly fine though?”
Grow up! YES, short of permanent damage or death. That is, IF I thought it would yield results.
Mike S
Durbins comment would have been forgotten in an instant had the blowhards not decided it was a perfect opportunity to change the point and score politically.
That plus the fact that they have been grossly mischaracterized has lead to where we are. It is you and the rest who have blown this way out of proportion that has caused the most damage. Instead of saying his words were out of line and also saying the charges made should be looked into the decision to attack was made. That is what is hurting us.
I remember after Abu Ghraib came to light President Bush came straight out and said that that was not how Americans act. It was one of the few times that I thought, thank you President Bush. There were members of my party who chose to defend it and that embarrassed the hell out of me. President Bush’s reaction was exactly right and gave us an opportunity to repair the dammage.
“I heart Gitmo” and “What happens in gitmo…” T-shirts only make matters worse. Do you honestly believe that a Senator getting up to decry the treatment is more harmfull than praising it?
Kermit
I suppose it wouldn’t bother any of you guys if we saw American soldiers getting treated the same way. Yes I knwo, the terrorists are much worse, remember the contracors and the like, but come on. I thought we were better. How low do you want to set the bar?
But they weren’t wearing uniforms!!!:
So all our special ops guys that may be “undercover” so to speak are fair game for all. I trust you wouldn’t have any complaints if these guys were locked up indefinietly chained in the fetal position for days.
ARROW
Mike S:
Durbin shouldn’t have said what he said in the way that he said it! I don’t think the people at Gitmo are doing any of the things I have advocated, it’s against policy.
Regarding the treatment of prisoners, I speak only for myself. Obviously there are people that disagree with what I have advocated, The Disenfranchised Voter, for one. I’m just telling you what I would do if my family and loved ones were at risk. And I don’t give a rat’s ass if it offends some sheltered peacenik’s sensibilities. Anybody wants to think the best of the world’s scumbags is free to pursue that line of thinking. Given the present state of the Middle East, I think that is a pretty immature approach that hasn’t work over the last fifty plus years. If that makes me “out-of-touch with reality,” so be it.
Kermit:
Do you actually think that how we treat our prisoners is reciprocated by our enemies? The treatment the Gitmo detainees are receiving is the best anyone could expect under the conditions (they are terrorists after all). And I would feel fortunate to receive the treatment I am advocating.
Picture yourself with your hands tied behind your back, a terrorists with a razor sharp sword standing over you, and the prospect of your head lying at your feet.
MI
We don’t know if they’re terrorists or not, I assume some or even most are, but others may very well be innocent of any wrong doing, we simply don’t know, that’s one of the problems. Were you aware of that? ..I’m not asking that in a snotty tone, I know sometimes it’s difficult to tell online.
It’s another of the broader issues we’re facing at Gitmo.
ARROW
MI:
It would have to be pretty clear to me that a “terrorist” was actually a terrorist, and that it was likely that he had information that could save lives.
Most, if not all, of the people at Gitmo were caught on the battlefield bearing arms against our troops. Are you saying they were just innocents, caught up in the euphoria of jihad? And they really didn’t know what they were doing? I don’t buy that.
Bottom line, I don’t think that there is very much in the way of abuse at Gitmo. The alledged situation with the detainee chained to the floor is the worst I’m aware of. Without knowing the context, I’m not prepared to say his treatment was uncalled for. But, obviously, it would be better if situations like that did not occur.
I would like to see all of the detainees that have been held since the camp was set up be returned for containment in their own home countries. Based on what I know, their countries don’t want them. Giving them trials when they were caught bearing arms against our troops seems like a waste of time and money. Since they do not wear uniforms, every one of them will probably just say they were out hunting squirrels, or something. What do you think we should do with them?
MI
Most, if not all, of the people at Gitmo were caught on the battlefield bearing arms against our troops.
I don’t know if that’s true or not, I’ve heard and read varying accounts of who these people are and the circumstances in which they came to be detained by us. Again, I’m sure most are indeed people who were fighting us in Afghanistan, but it’s also clear that some probably weren’t – that’s a problem..not saying it’s the biggest problem in the history of the world, but it’s something we need to figure out and take care of.
Are you saying they were just innocents, caught up in the euphoria of jihad? And they really didn’t know what they were doing? I don’t buy that.
Come on, you know that’s not what I’m saying. I was speaking specifically to the people who were wrongly detained two or three years ago and are still there. No one at Gitmo should receive the kind of treatment we’re discussing in this thread, although my sympathy level disappears for the actual terrorists (not my position that it still shouldn’t happen, I’m just not losing any sleep for them personally) but what really brings this issue into focus, for me anyway, is wondering if any of this torture/abuse/whatever you wanna call it, is happening or has happened to innocent men. That would seem particularly unfortunate.
Kermit
Arrow:
Of course our enemies don’t reciprocate. That’s wwhat is supposed to make us better. Be that as it may, I would have to assume that you would have absolutely no problems with our troops being treated exactly as we treat them. And since we all seem so sure that they are terrorists, then let’s have some trials.
Kermit
Back again. I figured I would post this short essay by Orwell. I realize that it was only written about nazis and not the truly evil people we’re up against now so it’s probably a little inaapropriate, but nevertheless:
May I be allowed to offer on or two reflections on the British Governments’ decision to retaliate against German prisoners, which seems so far to have aroused extraudinarily little protest?
By chaining up German prisoners in response to similar action by the Germans, we descend, at any rate in the eyes of the ordinary observer, to the level of our enemies. It is unquestionable when one thinks of the history of the past ten years that there is a deep moral difference between democracy and Fascism, but if we go on the principle of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth we simply cause that difference to be forgotten. Moreover, in the matter of ruthlessness we are unlikely to compete successfully with our enemies. As the Italian radio has just proclaimed, the Fascist principle is two eyes for an eye and a whole set of teeth for one tooth. At some point or another public opinion in England will flinch from the implications of this statement, and it is not very difficult to foresee what will happen. As a result of our action the Germans will chain up more British prisoners, we shall have to follow suit by chaining up more Axis prisoners, and so it will continue till logically all the prisoners on either side will be in chains. In practice, of course, we shall become disgusted with the process first, and we shall announce that the chaining up will now cease, leaving, almost certainly, more British than Axis prisoners in fetters. We shall have thus acted both barbarously and weakly, damaging our own good name without succeeding in terrorising the enemy. It seems to me that the civilised answer to the German action would be something like this: “You proclaim that you are putting thousands of British prisoners in chains because some half-dozen Germans or thereabouts were temporarily tied up during the Dieppe raid. This is disgustion hypocrisy, in the first place because of your own record during the past ten years, in the second place because troops who have taken prisoners have got to secure them somehow until they can get them to a place of safety, and to tie men’s hands in such circumstances is totally different from chaining up a helpless prisoner who is already in an internment camp. At this moment, we cannot stop you maltreating our prisoners, though we shall probably remember it at the peace settlement, but don’t fear that we shall retaliate in kind. “You are Nazis, we are civilised men. This latest act of yours simply demonstrates the difference.”
At this moment this may not seem a very satisfying reply, but I suggest that to anyone who looks back in three months’ time, it will seem better than what we are doing at present and it is the duty of those who can keep their heads to protest before the inherently silly process of retaliation against the helpless is carried any further.
George Orwell, 12 October 1942
But the nazis wore uniforms!!!!
Stormy70
The Nazis also shot anyone out of uniform they captured. They were called spies, and were afforded no prisoner of war status. We hand these terrorists their Korans with white gloves. Pathetic.
Kermi
We call them terrorists and afford them no POW status as well. If only we could be as tough as those nazis we could win the war like they did.
Stormy70
No, don’t shoot them out of hand, but don’t coddle them, and hand them their Koran with kid gloves. There is an interesting article in the American Spectator about Gitmo, and the fact that these prisoners have been processed by military commisssions, and some already let go. I can’t post a link the correct way, and I have a group presentation to give this morning, so I don’t have time to go get it right now. I will post it later today. Why are you up so early today?
Kermit
I live in Germany. I’ve been at work for 6 hours. And as you can see, working hard too.
Stormy70
I went back through and saw that you posted all night. You have been busy. That article I referred to is at Ankle Biting Pundits. I have to run off to start my productive day, darn it all.
Kermit
I’ll check out the article. Have fun.
p.lukasiak
I don’t know if that’s true or not, I’ve heard and read varying accounts of who these people are and the circumstances in which they came to be detained by us. Again, I’m sure most are indeed people who were fighting us in Afghanistan, but it’s also clear that some probably weren’t – that’s a problem..not saying it’s the biggest problem in the history of the world, but it’s something we need to figure out and take care of.
more importantly, even if they were “bearing arms against our troops”, that doesn’t make them terrorists. (And, in point of fact, most of those captured on the battlefield were facing Northern Alliance troops — the US bombed the crap out of the Afghan forces which had no air defense to speak of, and let the NA clean up the rest.)
It is the failure to make the distinction between “terrorists” and “those caught on the battlefield bearing arms in defense of the Afghan government” that is at the heart of the controversy over the treatment of detainees and the failure to provide them with the POW status required under international law.
The people being detained may have hated the United States, but they weren’t bombing civilian targets in the US (or anywhere else)…. they were fighting against a military organization that was attacking a sovereign nation. And by torturing and abusing these prisoners, we are only aiding and abetting those who identify the US as the Great Satan.
Here’s a little thought experiment. Suppose that the person described in the letter read by Dick Durbin had been an American soldier who had been captured by the insurgents. Is there a single person here who would not be screaming bloody murder about this treatment — is there a single right-winger who would not be pointing to it as justification for continued prosecution of this war?
The Islamic world doesn’t need Dick Durbin to point out that such treatment is unacceptable in the civilized world, nor does it need the American media to bring this kind of treatment to their attention — unlike the American media, the rest of the world’s media don’t wait until “official reports” are released (or leaked) to verify that abuse and torture hasoccurred. (The rest of the world doesn’t consider the fact that someone is a Muslim sufficient grounds to question their credibility.)
It wasn’t “stupid” for Dick Durbin to say what he did — it was necessary, because the American people prefer not to confront what it being done in their name, and only when they are forced to confront it does it have any impact.
Halffasthero
Good post John. I read the comments afterwards and I think for the most part, it felt on tin ears/eyes.
This whole imprisonment thing brings back something I remembered hearing about as a kid. We went to Idaho for scouts and were going to camp at the very place that the US had kept Nazi prisoners of war. The manner in which they were treated was very respectful and were well fed according to the troop leader who told us about it. When they would have the POW’s go out and do some digging or clean up, everyone of them returned without ever attempting to escape. These were the same guys who were trained by their fatherland to hate and denigrate those-who-are-not-us. Some returned to Germany, but a lot of them actually stayed in the US after the war.
I guess my point is that we do better when we lead by example than by tit-for-tat.
Steven
To answer John’s question, partisan hacks.
Stormy70
Kermit – here’s that article, I don’t think it was on Ankle Biting Pundits, sorry. Early morning and all that jazz.
http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=8325
I forgot which thread gave the tutorial for posting links, so if I mess up, sorry. Can someone direct me to the posting thread tutorial that you gave ppqaz, please?
Stormy70
I have syntax issues,sorry.
Compuglobalhypermeganet
The crux of this Durbin flap is that Roddenberrian dictum that “We shouldn’t bring ourselves down to the level of the (fill in the horrible, filthy foreigners who tortured as policy).” Don’t get me started as to whether that’s the way to win a war and keep casualties down, but anyway…
I think the courtmartials and debate over alleged abuses should make it fairly clear, even to those who hate our military power and would love to see the current administration humbled by self-righteous rhetorical attacks on its humanity (you know, 75% of the Democrats), that we are several “levels” above the groups they mention — even IF these abuse tales are true.
For example, I haven’t heard of a single jihadist going on trial for the inhumanity of slicing a Westerners head off (I guess Al Qaeda doesn’t have multiparty elections that would require such “patriotic” namecalling). I’m not sure of the numbers, but I’m pretty sure that Stalin beat OUR feeble record of 20 prisoners dead in 3 1/2 years while in OUR “gulag” by…about 3 or 4 MILLION people. I don’t think that Hitler released and repatriated a third of the Jews at his concentration camps, because the Nazis, you see, wanted every Jew in the world DEAD. See a slight difference now?
So let’s stop the equivalence, because it’s silly. When it comes to abuses, our soldiers DON’T act like Nazis, Khamer Rouge, or Stalin. We ARE “better” than them, and it’s not even close. Is it Nazi-esque to screw with the A/C and pump up the Jay-Z? No, because under the Nazis, that prisoner would already be dead. Is it like the Soviet gulags to desecrate a Koran? No, because in a gulag, the prisoner wouldn’t HAVE a Koran, and he’d be working 18 hours a day in Siberian mines (no breaks for prayer rugs!) to put money in Stalin’s coffers, until he died of exhaustion and/or starvation. Is it like the Khmer Rouge to punch an unruly prisoner? No, that’s like the LAPD — the KR would’ve had scorpions sting his genitals and given him electric shock until death.
So let’s quit pretending that critics of “torture” care even for one second about the human rights of Afghans (proof: How many times has Durbin spoken on the floor in praise of Bush and the military for freeing the millions who enjoy new human rights in Afghanistan? I put the over/under at 0). The Democrats’ wild rhetoric is clearly only aimed at scoring points against an Administration they hate because Bush beat Gore in 2000 and ended their 8-year hold on the Presidency. Period.
Stormy70
Preach it!
Kimmitt
The crux of the Durbin flap is that the wingnuts will use anything for partisan political gain.
Steve
Ah, I see. John thinks it is just fine to compare our military with the killing fields of Pol Pot, with the Nazis who killed ten million, with the soviets who killed 20 million in death camps. That is all fine with John because the senator said he didn’t say it. Even though we have the transcripts John can read them and completely miss the comparison. John knows that the chained man had not been throwing his feces at his interviewers. John knows that loud pop music is torture. John knows that cold air is extreme torture. John knows everything except what true torture is. If we used torture in GitMo there would be bodies; there are no bodies. The facts say that released prisoners have gained 30 pounds minimum while incarcerated. It must be the torture that makes them ALL gain weight. John is an ignorant idiot. He is ignorant because he does not know and he is an idiot because he cannot be told.
John thinks it is fine, just dandy, to compare our military with the killing fields of Cambodia. No problem there! John? When will you finally move to Cuba so you can be closer to a regime that you like?
Mike S
Funny how so many people miss John’s over all point. We should hold ourselves to a higher standard than our enemies because we are better than our enemies.
But we also have an oligation to ourselves and to the to the rest of the world to treat these detainees humanely, lawfully, and in accordance to the history of decency that I proudly associate with the United States. To do otherwise is to stain our dignity and our honor, as well as our reputation and good standing in the world.
I’m not sure why that is such a hard concept to grasp. Why is the standard being set that we are better than Saddam or the terrorists?
And why are people defending and praising the treatment, or making jokes like “I heart Gitmo” and “What happens in gitmo…?”
Compuglobalhypermeganet
The crux of the Durbin flap is that the wingnuts will use anything for partisan political gain.
…which is why the Republicans brought up the whole issue of the Nazis. What? They didn’t? A Democrat (sorry, Kimmit, didn’t mean to use the derogatory term “Democrat” — I mean, “a member of the Democratic Party of Crackhea–errrrr, America”) did?
Rather than say that Kimmit is full of crap, I’ll just assume that he misspelled “moonbat.” That is the opposite of “wingnut” in this elevated era of debate, isn’t it?
Compuglobalhypermeganet
We should hold ourselves to a higher standard than our enemies because we are better than our enemies.
I think that all serious people agree that we already DO hold ourselves to higher standards and that we’ve proven we are many levels more humane than jihadis, Nazis, etc. So why the handwringing over something we already have done, and continue to do, correctly? Because not every soldier is a perfect human being? Gosh, I knew that already, and I’m not sure that any amount of Durbin’s scorn is going to change it.
ARROW
“more importantly, even if they were “bearing arms against our troops”, that doesn’t make them terrorists. (And, in point of fact, most of those captured on the battlefield were facing Northern Alliance troops — the US bombed the crap out of the Afghan forces which had no air defense to speak of, and let the NA clean up the rest.)”
Whose side are you on???? “Afghan forces”… is that code for Talliban? You know, the nice guys out there giving aid and comfort to Osama, and when they weren’t doing that, chopping of arms and legs and otherwise repressing the common folks.
Rick
Check out Dick Durbin back in the good old days.
Only sane when his party is in the White House, it would appear.
Cordially…
vnjagvet
S. Durbin’s apology today on the Senate floor sounds pretty close to the one I recommended earlier on the thread. Seem’s about right to me.
vnjagvet
Sorry, got an error message so reposted. Then saw the dreaded “double post”. As to how it happened, I am clueless (but some have said that about me before).
ARROW
From Rick’s link:
“I call on those who question the motives of the president and his national security advisors to join with the rest of America in presenting a united front to our enemies abroad.”
“The men and women who are risking their lives in defense of our national and global security deserve nothing less.”
Maybe this is where I got my “talking point”?
Mike S
I have seen the light. Fuck the prisoners and kill them all. We don’t need no stinking laws. We’re at war.
Stormy70
No need to violate their person before we kill them, Mike S.
ARROW
“I have seen the light. Fuck the prisoners and kill them all.”
Way too much Viagra out there, me thinks.