Oliver states:
It’s possible that he’s lying. But I think the poor dear just believes the stories Cheney & Co. are telling him:
“First of all, most of Europe supported the decision in Iraq. Really what you’re talking about is France, isn’t it? And they didn’t agree with my decision. They did vote for the U.N. Security Council resolution. … We just had a difference of opinion about whether, when you say something, you mean it.”
Flashback to Feb 2003: Polls find Europeans oppose Iraq war.
Unless Oliver is under the misguided impression that UN Security Council votes are now popular referendums in Europe, he has this ass-backwards. Resolution 1441, the last UN Security Council resolution to pass, passed unanimously. After the inspections were once again stalled, the administration proposed the eighteenth resolution, which would have been Resolution #1442. That was subsequently withdrawn because of Russian, German, Chinese, and French opposition, and would not have passed because of the positions of the permanent members.
In short, Bush was right, Oliver is wrong. Of the European nations, France and Germany were opposed (Germany presided over the council), Russia was ambivalent- against but willing to cooperate under certain circumstances, Bulgaira, Spain, and England were in favor.
Dean
John,
You’re missing a bunch of countries. Remember the group announcement from the eight-nation group (Czechs, Slovaks, Poles), which said that they supported us (and which earned them the French rebuke that some nations should not be heard)?
And, for better or worse, most references to Europe are discussing the number of governments, not referenda (which don’t happen all that often there in any case).
After all, “Europe” supported the deployment of intermediate-range missiles, even if polls didn’t.
But then, Ronnie was a Republican, too (and shtooopid).
willyb
“First of all, most of Europe supported the decision in Iraq. Really what you’re talking about is France, isn’t it?”
With the ongoing investigations of the U.N.’s Oil for Food program, I think it will become more and more apparent that France had economic motives to keep Saddam Hussein in power. After all, what’s wrong with a little torture, abuse, and U.N. resolution violations, when there are billions at stake. This scandal will probably turn out to be the largest in history. And if were Bush were at the or near the center of this fraud, rather than France, Russia, and others, this story would have been the front pages for months. Just another example of the failure that the U.N. has become.
Andrew J. Lazarus
John, would you define the metric we’re supposed to use to measure support of the Iraq War? (Certainly not 1441, which the Europeans did not find tantamount to war.) Once that’s clear, we can try to figure out the merits of Bush’s claim. I must say, the naive reading is that he believes the majority of the European PUBLIC (not just governments) supported the war, and that is most certainly not true. Maybe Rove handed him an alternative poll.
John Cole
Since Bush specifically inoked thename of theSecurity Council and easrlier in the intrview was discussing NATO, I am assuming we are talking members of the Sewcurity Council and nation states.
Why Bush would give two hoots in hell what the population of France thinks in an opinion poll is beyond me, and something Oliver just injected into the interview.
Oliver
Bush is changing the focus of the conversation. From the populace to the gov’t because he knows the answer to the first bit stings him in the rear. And even in the UN the opposition was more than just France, hence us totally wimping out on the followup resolution to 1441.
Yan
See, see, foreingers don’t like Bush! And not just the French, the Russians and the Chinese don’t like him either! See, See?!
And we should care about that how?
Jay
Oliver, if it was done your way, there would be no military action in Afghanistan since most Europeans were opposed to attacking there as well.
Do you ever get tired of tasting your own feet?
Oliver
I never said that Euro opinion was a pro – or – con endorsement, Jay (and you know that). I’m just pointing out yet another of your beloved leader’s leaps of logic.
Dean
Oliver,
You believe that the President is lying because he says that much of Europe endorses his decision, but you don’t think whether European opinion is pro- or con- matters?
Then why bother making the comment at all?
Methinks it’s you who’s having the ‘leap of (il)logic’.
Andrew J. Lazarus
I followed Jay’s link. According to the cited poll, im late 2001 the Europeans favored the extradition and trial of Osama to war. It’s far from clear from the cited article whether the poll was conducted before or after the Taliban government refused to consider any such extradition, and how the respondents who put extradition as their first choice felt when it was removed from the options.
If I thought that any sort of extradition of Osama and all the officers of Al Qaeda was remotely possible, I suppose I might have said it was better if I had been in a poll. Given that I could no more imagine Japan handing over Hirohito and Tojo in January 1942, I view this as an exercise in silly polling, rather than a true determination of European opinion.
Google disgorged this poll from April 2002, where support for the Afghan War was 83% US, 73% UK, 64% France, 61% Germany, and 59% Italy.
Dman
If you notice, the liberal /leftist must always interpret a statement from a conservative and say that though the statement did not actually have those words in it they really meant such and such. But when addressing an liberal/leftist statement that actually has the words contained in it that make it a controversial statement , they defend it by saying though he said it that way he did not really mean it that way.
Ricky
Dman summed up so much of the left(but not all, thankfully…..most of blogsom) nicely.
I can do it in two words: dishonest propaganda
Andrew J. Lazarus
So what did Bush mean? That he had a majority of the Euro governments’ support for the invasion of Iraq, or a majority of the European public? It would be helpful to cut my Google search time in half for seeing if either claim is true.
The claim that Europe opposed the Afghan War does not appear to be true.
Ricky
The part about voting on resolutions @ the UN should’ve been a dead giveaway.
Dman
Last time I checked, the public did not vote at the UN.
Dman
To eliminate any confusion I was anwsering Andrews question. By the way Andrew, did you ever find out what the definition of is is?
Dean
Andrew:
Did you actually read the link? In the SECOND paragraph, it said that the poll was held in late September. The US invaded in October.
But I don’t quite understand your point about this poll. You seem to suggest that the Europeans would have supported war if extradition was unlikely, yet in your next breath, you admit that extradition was impossible (a la Hirohito and Tojo).
Are you suggesting the average EUropean (who is considered more aware of international politics than Americans) is somehow LESS aware of this reality? Why would you think that?
So, if EUros are aware that extradition won’t happen, but would prefer extradition to war, I’d interpret that as meaning that EUros opposed war w/ Afghanistan.
Andrew J. Lazarus
What I suggested, Dean, is that the European poll results have to be read in the context they were offered an imaginary alternative (extradition). I’m not sure how votes for an appealing but impractical choice should be accounted in terms of support for the subsequent war. (The poll was approx contemporaneous with the Taliban’s refusal to accede to our ultimatum.)
DMan, your criticism of me appears to be incoherent. I’m actually ASKING the conservative to explain which of various alternatives is meant, precisely so I don’t misinterpret it. If your claim is that I should have interpreted the statement as referring to GOVERNMENT’S support of the Iraq and Afghan wars, then you should be coming down on Jay (not me) for bringing in a poll about the European public. The European governments all supported the Afghan War. I think this is all over your head, maybe we can argue on a simpler thread that you can understand.