I can’t even call this Democratic Stupidity, because it is so irresponsible:
The Bush administration Monday denied allegations by Jean-Bertrand Aristide and his supporters that U.S. agents and diplomats coerced him into resigning as Haiti’s president and spirited him out of the country at gunpoint.
“He went onto the airplane willingly,” Secretary of State Colin Powell said. “And that’s the truth.”
Powell also admonished two members of Congress for suggesting U.S. diplomats and troops strong-armed the Haitian into exile.
“It would have been better for members of Congress who have heard these stories to ask us about the stories before going public with them so that we don’t make a difficult situation that much more difficult,” Powell said, calling the charges “absurd.”
Powell made the remarks after Reps. Charles Rangel (D-N.Y.) and Maxine Waters (D-Calif.) said Aristide or his wife told them by telephone that American soldiers had forced him onto a plane eventually bound for the Central African Republic.
Aristide told The Associated Press and CNN he was “forced to leave” by Americans who warned that his life was threatened by rebels besieging the capital.
Powell said Aristide decided to resign and that U.S. forces helped protect him and his family as they boarded a private jet chartered by the State Department.
Rangel said Aristide told him on the telephone “he felt like he was being kidnapped.” Rangel said Aristide also claimed U.S. Embassy officials dictated the text of his resignation letter.
“They needed that resignation. Why? Because [without it] we would have been part of a coup, because it was a coup,” Rangel said.
Waters told CNN Aristide’s wife, Mildred, told her the exiled Haitian leader was “forced to leave his home,” after a U.S. Embassy official told him he “had to go now
keith edge
treason?
mark
Wasn’t Rangel the one who also hosted Fidel Castro at a church in Harlem years ago when he was in the U.S. for some U.N. meeting? Quite telling who some people see as true leaders, eh?
Kimmitt
I’m so far into the land of WTF that I haven’t even the faintest notion of where to start.
shark
Wow. Just wow. How. Fricking. Sad.
Jack Sparks (burn rate)
This is going to become a fairly large story over the next week. As Edwards is going to drop out tonight, there’s no horserace left, and what better story for the media than “Questions remain over what role the Bush Administration played in the overthrow of democraticaly elected President Aristide.”
WTF land today, “legitimate” news story tomorrow.
Charlie (Colorado)
“Election year politics.”
Goddamnit.
trump
What is it called when you are actively working to the dtriment of your government?
Democrat politics as usual.
Listening to shit like this makes me pray very hard for a loony gunman to to come give these asshats the bullet to the brain they so richly deserve.
Terry
The US government ought to take Maxine, Charlie, and the other members of the Black Caucus up on their concern and offer to fly them over to the Central African Republic where they could pick up Aristide and fly him back to Haiti We should then drop the whole fucking lot of them in the middle of Port Au Prince and let the people of Haiti give them a good old fashioned Haitian welcome, perhaps along the lines of the “tire-necklacing” that Aristide himself made popular a decade ago.
M. Scott Eiland
Maxine is just mad because there were fatal riots going on that she had no part in aggravating.
Bloggerhead
Um, John, don’t you mean “to the detriment of our country?” Otherwise, you’d be advocating that no one should ever be able to point out what lying sacks we have in charge. And how is further pointing out that we may well have sided with murderous thugs to overthrow yet another of our hemisphere’s elected leaders, albeit a bit of a thug himself, a detriment to our country, as opposed to this particular government?
Seems to have gotten a few of the mouthbreathers to relieve themselves on your board, though.
JayR
Just curious, John: Do you think that Rangel and Waters are lying about this or do you believe that they are obligated not to mention that we might have had a role in toppling a democratically elected government. And if it is the second, why? Also, if the second then did you also have the same issue with Dick Armey and Tom DeLay and Trent Lott speaking out when the US participated in the NATO campaign against Serbia?
Also, if you believe that people are obligated to shut up about this, what do you think are the correct means of expressing distaste for these actions?
Syl
It’s very simple. Do you believe Powell is lying or is it Aristide who is lying?
Looks to me as though Rangel and Waters are showing extremely poor judgement.
SDN
No worse than Bagdad Jim McDermott and his compatriot who went to Iraq and said they trusted Saddam more than Bush. I still remember vividly the abuse that came my way for suggesting that this met the definition of treason as “aid and comfort” to the enemy. I’m sure I’ll get some more. Ah well.
M. Scott Eiland
“No worse than Bagdad Jim McDermott and his compatriot who went to Iraq and said they trusted Saddam more than Bush. I still remember vividly the abuse that came my way for suggesting that this met the definition of treason as “aid and comfort” to the enemy. I’m sure I’ll get some more. Ah well.”
Hey, if Maxine and Charlie want to go to Haiti and make these accusations in the middle of the biggest, most homicidal crowd they can find–I think a few tax dollars can be found to pay their way. Just remember to make them one-way tickets: more efficient.
Andrew J. Lazarus
I think Powell is mistaken (possibly lying). That’s a problem with the boy-crying-wolf dishonesty of this Administration. As a matter of fact, I can’t think of any reason except blind lobotomized loyalty why one would believe the Administration’s story over Aristide’s, which was reported by foreign news services even before Aristide himself, and CERTAINLY no reason why one should go off the deep end assailing persons who don’t agree.
There were unfortunate times 35 years ago that Radio Hanoi was more truthful than the American government, and I don’t think anyone who followed the news then will ever quite get over the cynicism this caused.
Ripper
And no one considers the possibility that Aristide is simply trying to save face? “No, I didn’t run away like a little girl – the evil Americans kidnapped me. Be strong, brave Haitians, I shall return!” This murderous thug pulled the same sort of scam before when the left was desperate to portray him as the “people’s priest” who only wanted to save his country, so why not do it now?
And as Rangel and Waters prove, when a Republican is in charge you can always get support – no matter how vile a piece of human sewage you may be – from the left. Is there any murderous dictator the Democrat party DOESN’T support?
trump
There were unfortunate times 35 years ago that Radio Hanoi was more truthful than the American government, and I don’t think anyone who followed the news then will ever quite get over the cynicism this caused
GET. OVER. IT. Vietnam happened a long time ago. Please move on or shuffle off so the rest of us in this country can finally move beyond some fricking godforsaken idiocy from the 1960’s and 70’s…
Jack Sparks (burn rate)
Andrew,
I can’t think of any reason save pathological Bush-hatret to think it’s reasonable that Bush ordered the kidnapping of JBA. What possible good could it do, particularly if JBA would respond by telling the world we forced him out at gunpoint?
Application of a little common sense might help you out here.
jack
What does the US have to gain by getting Aristide out of the counrty? He was leaving anyway.
Of course, our way, he’s still breathing.
And so are a lot of Haitians who wouldn’t be otherwise.
Rick
“I can’t think of any reason save pathological Bush-hatret to think it’s reasonable that Bush ordered the kidnapping of JBA.”
Given the fringers contortions over the “AWOL” non-issue, no reason is necessary.
Cordially…
Ken Hahn
I’m so angry, I’ve had to start this entry three times. Radio Hanoi? Radio f* Hanoi? Just when where they accurate Mr. Lazarus? When they reported that Senator McCain and others were enjoying the resort like treatment at the Hanoi Hilton? When they said they never killed and maimed villagers loyal to the South? When they reported that Jane Fonda was representative of the American people? When? Or maybe now when they report there no genocide in Vietnam against ethnic nonVietnamese? Perhaps we can listen to Radio DPRK for the truth?
Believing a con man like Aristide is about on par with citing Jesse Jackson. There is no truth there.
I don’t think we should have rescued Aristide. I don’t think we should be in Haiti at all. This is a real quagmire that the other professional liar, Mr. Clinton, got us into. For once I think this is a job for the UN. Let them handle this and let the Europeans handle the Balkans. Haiti, like Kosovo, is unfixable.
There are no good guys in Haiti. Aristide is a socialist thug. His opponents aren’t much different. I’m not much of a fan of Mr. Powell but compared to Rangel and Waters, he’s a saint.
Andrew J. Lazarus
Why Bush wanted Aristide out? Perhaps because Otto Reich and his deputy Roger Noriega have wanted him out for a very long time. They saw him as another Castro in the making. Perhaps they wanted him out for humanitarian reasons. Perhaps they wanted him out because they thought it would lessen the number of refugees trying to get to Florida. I agree, it is also *possible* that Aristide has invented (or grossly exaggerated) the extent of American pressure on him, to look less cowardly or to rally his own forces for the next grisly phase, but I see little reason to dismiss his claims out of hand, as you do.
I see a major newspaper has the same take I do on the Administration’s credibility.
The Guardian’s report does not look encouraging.
As far as Radio Hanoi, Mr. Hahn. I did not say that everything Radio Hanoi said was more truthful than the US’s official position. That would be ridiculous. It is incontrovertible, however, that we conducted a “secret” (to whom?) bombing campaign of Laos and Cambodia that you could hear about on Radio Hanoi, but our government denied. That’s only the first example that comes to mind. Whatever it does to your blood pressure, you’ll just have to deal with it.
Excuse me if I find you guys pitifully credulous. Where are those WMD Rumsfeld said we knew all about? Why exactly should we believe a single word these guys say??
joe schmo
Andy, before you go spinning abother story about the Bushilter administration, you should review what Joh Kerry had to say about this. He is on record saying that the Us should not have waited so long to go in. He also said he would not have waited for UN approval.
Now consider thatn this was a US-French operation with UN approval.
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/169039p-147637c.html
Yep, evil bushilter, bad dog.
Jack Sparks (burn rate)
Well, Radio Hanoi is reporting that Bush ordered the kidnapping of JBA as part of a Haliburton plan to take control of Haiti’s substantial litter and burning tire reserves. So I guess it makes sense.
Ricky
Andrew, do you believe – as Waters alleged – that the influx of crack cocaine was infiltrated by our US government in order to keep down the black community?
And you have the temerity to assume that we should believe her over Colin Powell?
Jack Sparks (burn rate)
Radio Hanoi is reporting that crack cocaine was invented accidentially by then Lt. George W. Bush after driving then-girlfriend Condi Rice to get an abortion and while AWOL from his TANG unit. He sold the recipe to his dad in exchange for an unspecified amount of Haliburton stock.
Steverino
And how is further pointing out that we may well have sided with murderous thugs to overthrow yet another of our hemisphere’s elected leaders,
Oh, please. Aristede was elected like Saddam Hussein was elected. If you’re going to insist that Aristede was elected, then you have lost any right to grouse about the 2000 election.
trump
Andrew J Lazarus: GET OVER VIETNAM.
Either learn to move on or please just shut the f*ck up with it already.
It’s 35+ years ago. IT’S OVER. IT’S DONE. Everybody on all sides of the issue should have learned their lessons by now (because the protestors deserve a lot of shit for their actions as well). SO please end our misery. YOU may be one of the pathetic group who frames their worldview in the vietnam looking glass, but the rest of us are TIRED of this shit. What is this presidential election about so far? Vietnam! What is the Iraq debate framed in? Vietnam! BLAH BLAH BLAH. There is nothing more your kind can teach us, as we’ve been made to marinate in this vile brew for decades. VIETNAM IS OVER. YOU’RE OVER. I can’t wait for you and those like you to die off so some of us who live in a different time can FINALLY move on and end this interminable drag on our souls.
Andrew J. Lazarus
Hey, Schmoe, did you actually READ what Kerry said?
If you can’t see a profound difference between that and what we have done, I added capital letters to help. Geez.
Ricky: No, I don’t believe Waters on crack’s origins. I try to keep a skeptical mind about all sorts of extraordinary claims.
You guys have yet to make any AFFIRMATIVE argument why Powell and Bush’s statements are credible. I wonder why??
Steverino: On the thuggery scale, Aristide’s successors look much worse. Frying pan, fire.
Trump: Young and foolish comes to mind. Let me give you a hint: we STILL deal with the legacy of the Civil War, although not so much as when I was born. Post-Vietnam, only the lobotomized have an excuse for “If Uncle Sam says it, it must be true.” (Other countries have recognized the falsity of this statement for a long time.)
Dean
Actually, I hate to say this Andrew, but your response brings Bluto from Animal House to mind.
“Over? OVER? It’s not over ’til WE say it’s over! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!”
trump
Andrew J Lazarus- we may still have to deal with post-vietnam effects, fine. But there is no excuse for you people who define every single thing by it. Dealing with the effects and aftermath of Gulf War I is more important to our lives than rehashing a 35 year old war. FUCK VIETNAM, we have other things to deal with. Vietnam is old news, and Vietnam era throwbacks are also old news. Time to modernize
Chowderhead
I heard that Andrew J. Lazarus likes to bugger little children, a story which I will believe until Andrew J. Lazarus makes an AFFIRMATIVE argument as to why it is false.
Toren
Attention, lefties:
Here is some information on the elections that gave Haiti their “democratically elected leader.” And please note the source…your pals at Human Rights Watch.
Haiti Elections 2000
Andrew J. Lazarus
Chowderhead: we already know Rumsfeld and Powell were very badly mistaken in a matter of national security (or that they dissembled). That’s a good reason to be extra-skeptical of their latest pronouncements. You guys are STILL perfectly willing to take their uncorroborated word, even though WE ALREADY KNOW that it’s no good. Only because they’re saying what you want to believe, not because they’re reliable. (What’s more, David Kay has started COMPLAINING that the Administration isn’t even interested in why they were so wrong on WMD, which detracts from their credibility EVEN FURTHER.)
A better analogy, Chowderbrain, if you must pick something so lurid, is that if I had already been convicted of child molestation AND THEN YOU WERE SO STUPID AS TO LEAVE A KID WITH ME AGAIN. I mean, I’m not Michael Jackson.
Andrew J. Lazarus
(Toren: far be it from me to defend Aristide qua Aristide, like Mugabe, he’s lost it, but what did Human Rights Watch have to say about the Duvalierist butchers who seem to be behind the rebellion? Much, much worse, I’d guess. Leaving aside whether it’s a good thing in general to go around the world removing less-than-democratic governments, we can say with confidence that it’s a bad thing when the replacement is Duvalierist.)
Slartibartfast
Andrew in a nutshell: being wrong once is the same as being a pathological liar; hence Rumsfeld and Powell should be assumed to be lying unless conclusive proof of their veracity can be produced.
Accurate representation?
Terry
I’m curious why some of you folks are bothering to respond to an obvious fool like Andrew. It’s clear that a preponderance of his views on the world are filtered through the prism of his anal-retentive memories of listening/reading to leftish crapola most of his life.
Jack Sparks (burn rate)
Chowderhead, Radio Hanoi is confirming your story re Andrew’s amorous assignations.
And Andrew, by your “logic”, we are fully justified in refusing to believe anything said by the entire Clinton administration, Blair’s gov’t, and the gov’ts of every other country who made affirmative statements re Iraq’s WMDs, as well as Kerry, H.R.C., and a myriad of other Democrats.
I eagerly await your vehement renunciations of Kerry’s entire platform, as it is per se false, or at least presumed false until proven true.
Ricky
Good. This is an extraordinary claim & it’s not up to Powell to prove that Waters is being the fool AGAIN in this case.
Next.
Slartibartfast
Heh. Well, I was going to stay away from Bush/Clinton comparisons, but I wonder how many in the Clinton administration lost any credibility with Andrew after the aspirin factory turned out to be demonstrably nothing more threatening than an aspirin factory?
Jack Sparks (burn rate)
According to the latest dispatch from Radio Hanoi, it was a BABY asprin factory.
Ok, I’ll stop now.
Dean
You know what’s funny? Neither Radio Hanoi nor Andrew ever mention one of the key REASONS for that “secret bombing” of Cambodia and the like—the Ho Chi Minh trail.
You don’t remember that? The trail (more like an unpaved highway in many places) where the North Vietnamese violated sovereignty and ran their supply lines through southern Laos and eastern Cambodia, in order to supply their southern forces?
To hear Radio Hanoi (or Andrew) talk about it, you’d think that this route didn’t exist, that the bombing was simply in order to bomb a buncha yellow people—as opposed to trying to cut a major supply route that the Laotians and Cambodians were either unwilling (or more likely, unable) to cut themselves.
Funny….
Andrew J. Lazarus
Dean, I didn’t say the bombings of Laos and Cambodia were unjustified. I said that Radio Hanoi’s account of them was more truthful than our own, which denied they occurred. Does the word “Hanoi” discombobulate you so much, that this elementary distinction escapes you?
Slart, did Clinton ever insist up and down he was so sure of the aspirin factory, even to the extent of ignoring UN Inspectors in the factory? Of course not. There’s a strong case to be made that Clinton was mistaken, while Powell and Rumsfeld were either eager to deceive themselves, or simply dissembling. OTOH, I wouldn’t believe the first thing Clinton said about an affair; indeed, I didn’t at the time.
Ricky, how about the teensiest corroboration of Powell’s version of events? Too much to ask for?
Dean
Andrew:
No, it discombobulates me when somebody says that Radio Hanoi was somehow more honest while leaving aside a gaping hole of facts and reality.
This would be like arguing that Radio Berlin was more accurate in discussing Stalin’s invasion of Germany while utterly ignoring the events of June 22, 1941. Or arguing that Tokyo Rose was more accurate in reporting the deaths of thousands of civilians in Hiroshima while studiously ignoring Pearl Harbor.
Similarly, that Radio Hanoi would find it useful to report on the bombing of Cambodia and elsewhere doesn’t surprise me. Neither does your sarcastic reference to it, as though, as I noted above, it occurred out of whole cloth, w/o reference to the Ho Chi Minh trail, etc.
And if Aristide is going to accuse the US of kidnapping him, why is it up to Powell to prove his word?
Harry
If Aristide had not left Haiti he would be dead now. That’s a fairly reasonable assumption. How would propping up a corrupt murderous regime like Aristide’s with American power be in America’s interests?
Saddam Hussein won his last election with 100% of the vote and a great many Europeans along with European news organizations took this as a true mandate of the Iraqi people. According to Andy’s logic the Iraqi people craved Saddam Hussein to lord over them and who are we to say different, even if it was detrimental to American interest?
Haiti is a toilet. It has always been a toilet. It will probably always be a toilet. Clinton and other leftists were and are all to ready to have us swim or drowm in that toilet. Leave Haiti to the Haitians good or bad. Even if Haiti goes Marxist, let it. The only thing Haiti exports is poor people, so I rather doubt it can export Marxism.
Haitian culture is ingrained with tryanny and poverty and we are not going to change their behavior. Best to leave them to their own fate. The only interest we have in Haiti is to try to stem the number of boat peole trying to reach Florida. So what was in America’s interest was that this crisis end quickly with or without Aristide. It has never mattered and it will never matter which leftist thug whether duly elected or not is charge of Haiti it will remain a sewer. But it is fascinating how much American leftists dig left wing thugs, however. Birds of a feather I guess.
Al Maviva
The rebels start tearing up the country, the Black Congressional Caucus – the self-proclaimed “conscience of the Congress” hollers it’s racist to not intervene.
Corrine Brown says it’s racist to not take in every Haitian fleeing the country.
The rebels get into the city, the BCC and John Kerry say it’s racist if Bush does nothing.
Bush’s ambassador makes a phone call and offers security to drive Aristide to the airport, a couple hundred Marines show up and order the rebels to drop the guns and go home, many Haitians start begging America to stay for 50 or so years, the food relief starts to flow… and it’s… wait for it….
Why it was the racist overthrow of a democratically elected government of course.
So there you have it. It’s racist to let the black bodies pile up in a failed state, it’s racist to do something about it.
Pretty soon, the term racist will have lost its meaning. As will “democratic election” – especially in light of the Organization of American States accusations that Aristide rigged the 2000 election. I mean honest to God, if Bush isn’t democratically elected according to the Dems, how can a real banana republic dictator who really actually stole the last election be democratically elected?
Andrew J. Lazarus
Perhaps it would be. Except Radio Berlin did no such thing, we may well prove my point. I didn’t claim that Radio Hanoi was generally honest, I claimed that on some issues, it was accurate, and our position was false. Would you care to attack that on its merits? Are you claiming that because on many other issues Hanoi was dishonest, then it’s not an embarrassment when the reverse is true? Or are you claiming that North Vietnam was so evil that it doesn’t matter if Radio Hanoi was more accurate? Neither of these strikes me as very cogent, but I’d like to be sure it’s what you intend to argue.
Dean
Andrew,
YOU wrote, “There were times that Radio Hanoi was more truthful than the US Government.”
Ken Hahn asked for examples.
YOU cited Radio Hanoi’s reporting on the bombing of Cambodia and Laos as somehow being “more truthful.” This, when they left out the subject of WHAT WAS BEING BOMBED.
Now you claim that all you are saying is that they were accurate and our statements were false.
WRONG.
Their statements were inaccurate, and so were our own government’s. They were inaccurate on different lines. YOU, OTOH, accept their sins of omission, while condemning our (larger, in this case) sins of commission.
The fact that, for a real-life example, Radio Berlin and the Nazi news structure WAS CORRECT in reporting that it was the Soviets who executed the Polish officers in Katyn Forest allows you to make the claim, I suppose, that it is unfortunate that there were times that the Nazi propaganda machine was more accurate than news from American allies. (An extremely narrowly true statement.) But to use that as support of your larger theme that therefore the US has no credibility, or to justify your cynicism about the American government viz. Aristide (who now seems to be claiming that he left “to avoid further bloodshed”), I leave to the rest of this forum to conclude appropriateness.
Slartibartfast
“Slart, did Clinton ever insist up and down he was so sure of the aspirin factory, even to the extent of ignoring UN Inspectors in the factory?”
Good thing that wasn’t my point, or else my conclusion sure would be in trouble. Luckily for me, the idea that you can call Bush and staff a bunch of pathological liars for the crime of being wrong once without returning the favor to Clinton and staff lives on.
“There’s a strong case to be made that Clinton was mistaken, while Powell and Rumsfeld were either eager to deceive themselves, or simply dissembling.”
Feel free to make that point. Better make it a strong one, because this accusation of lying is pretty serious. Serious enough to impeach.
On the other hand, if you don’t have a strong case, you’re going to look pretty stupid for even mentioning it.
CadillaqJaq
Leaving Hanoi aside for a minute, let’s take up a collection and send Andrew off to Africa to “rescue” the kidnapped Aristide and return him to Haiti… like that’s where he’d like to be? LMAO!
While Andrew is flying the Atlantic with Aristide, perhaps he’d demand to see whatever proof exists that Powell etal lied, or is it just more wishful thinking on your part Andrew?
Slartibartfast
“Slart, did Clinton ever insist up and down he was so sure of the aspirin factory, even to the extent of ignoring UN Inspectors in the factory?”
Dang, I hate leaving out something. Tell me, does it indicate good judgement on Mr. Clinton’s part that he launched a cruise missile attack on an installation in a country we didn’t currently have any quarrel with, given the lack of total certainty you insist was there?
Interesting.
Andrew J. Lazarus
Well, Slart, if you want to impeach members of the Administration for being so terribly wrong, far be it from me to stop you. I would at least have expected the credulous officials who believed Ahmad Chalabi and his well-orchestrated network of phony defectors over our own spy agencies and the UN’s on-the-spot inspectors to have been fired. But no. It was all just a teeny accidental mistake, not terrible judgment.
Dean
Back to Aristide, isn’t it odd that the (American) press is still reporting that Aristide wasn’t kidnapped? Instead, they’re reporting that his own bodyguards don’t believe he was kidnapped.
But I guess expecting Andrew to perhaps recognize that the US Government hasn’t committed EVERY crime it’s accused of is a bit much.
http://www.jdnews.com/SiteProcessor.cfm?Template=/GlobalTemplates/Details.cfm&StoryID=20776&Section=News
Slartibartfast
“Well, Slart, if you want to impeach members of the Administration for being so terribly wrong…”
WRONG? I thought they were liars. Warp 8 on the goalposts, you canna push em much faster.
M. Scott Eiland
“Back to Aristide, isn’t it odd that the (American) press is still reporting that Aristide wasn’t kidnapped? Instead, they’re reporting that his own bodyguards don’t believe he was kidnapped.
But I guess expecting Andrew to perhaps recognize that the US Government hasn’t committed EVERY crime it’s accused of is a bit much.”
*snicker*
*Scott hauls out The World’s Smallest Violin and starts playing “Nearer By God To Thee” in honor of Andrew’s riding the good ship “Maxine May *Not* Be An Insane Racist Liar, ‘cuz Bush–he’s *bad*” straight into Davy’s Jones’ Locker*