I was wondering all day how long it would take before a reporter asked Bush about the Gore endorsement, and what his reponse should be. Personally, if I were president Bush, and a reporter asked me what I thought about Gore endorsing Dean, I would reply:
“I guess that makes sense. I am assuming Bob Dole intends to endorse me.”
Andrew Lazarus
My guess is similar: “I guess that makes sense. I am assuming Scalia and Rehnquist intend to endorse me. Again.”
Steve Malynn
Andrew, do you have any more cool aid?
Dean
Andrew,
You forgot to include, “AND I won a majority of the popular vote, but that got ignored.”
CadillaqJaq
Posted by Andrew Lazarus at December 9, 2003 04:50 PM — My guess is similar: “I guess that makes sense. I am assuming Scalia and Rehnquist intend to endorse me. Again.” Yeah, Andrew, and when will the FLSC justices throw their ‘weight’ behind Howard Dean?
I especially liked the introductory line today when Gore was introduced as the ‘elected president’ of the United States. Apparently laws, and the rule of law are secondary to the will of the party faithful. Get over it: GWB is the president and will continue to be.
HH
Some reporter should have asked Dean why he is running against President Gore…
And I think the more appropriate response from Bush would be “Yeah, I think my dad endorsed Dole too.”
Dana
I especially liked the introductory line today when Gore was introduced as the ‘elected president’ of the United States. Apparently laws, and the rule of law are secondary to the will of the party faithful. Get over it: GWB is the president and will continue to be.
Heh. Yeah, I keep waiting for “MoveOn.org” to “move on” from the 2000 election, but so far it hasn’t happened.
Kimmitt
Utter contempt for the democratic process — it’s the Republican way.
Dean
Riiiight, Kimmit. Recounts of CERTAIN counties, that’s the American way. Trying to discern INTENT rather than whether you voted properly, that’s teh American way.
You’re a grad student, right? I’m curious: If you took the GREs but filled in the circles wrong, or had multiple circles, or tried to WRITE-IN your answers to the GREs, you think you coulda gotten into grad school? When your students write incorrect answers, do you give them credit for their intent, as opposed to what’s on their answer sheets and work-books?
Slartibartfast
I’m thinking that most of the contempt for the democratic process was amply demonstrated by the democratic supervisors of elections whose job it was to, you know, allow people to cast their votes in the way they intended.
These are the same folks who used the same kind of ballot that had known problems back in 1998. Hell, Jeb Bush even up and fired one of them a couple of weeks ago.
Sooner or later that knee is just going to wear out, Kimmitt.
Emperor Misha I
“Waiting for MoveOn.org to move on from Election 2000?”
Good luck. I haven’t even gotten to that point yet. I’m still waiting for the Donks to wake up and realize that we live in a Republic.
I’ll know it has happened when Satan calls me and asks me if I want to help him open his new skating rink.
Kimmitt
“Trying to discern INTENT rather than whether you voted properly, that’s teh American way.”
Florida law is clear. Of course, ignoring the law when it is inconvenient is also the Republican way.
2000->Ch0102->Section%20166″>source
Florida statute, title IX, Chapter 102: Counting Elections and Ascertaining the Results
7) Procedures for a manual recount are as follows:
(a) The county canvassing board shall appoint as many counting teams of at least two electors as is necessary to manually recount the ballots. A counting team must have, when possible, members of at least two political parties. A candidate involved in the race shall not be a member of the counting team.
(b) If a counting team is unable to determine a voter’s intent in casting a ballot, the ballot shall be presented to the county canvassing board for it to determine the voter’s intent.
Kimmitt
The link on my source did not go through properly:
revised link.
Kimmitt
Also, here:
Title IX, Chapter 101, Voting Methods and Procedure:
If any ballot card of the type for which the offices and measures are not printed directly on the card is damaged or defective … No vote shall be declared invalid or void if there is a clear indication of the intent of the voter as determined by the canvassing board.
Feel free to state that some kind of resolution was necessary, and you got lucky at the end. But stop trying to pretend that the law was followed; it was not. It may not have been good law, but that’s a matter for the Florida Legislature.
Slartibartfast
Sorry, Kimmitt. I missed the part where you pointed to the part of the law that wasn’t followed. Which was it?
Kimmitt
I was pointing to the part of the law which Dean sought to ignore. In general, the Florida Supreme Court handed down the only sensible decision under Florida law, which was a statewide hand recount. The Supreme Court decided that it didn’t think, for reasons both good and heinous, that that was a good idea, so it invented a new wrinkle on Equal Protection, then, to make certain that we all understood that this was not a real decision but a political one, explicitly excluded Bush v. Gore from being used as a precedent to improve the lot of voters elsewhere.
Now, we Democrats accepted this, because Al Gore decided to fold and thus we had no real case, and because we have a basic respect for the institutions which hold our country together — and, we figured, better a lousy President and some much-needed electoral reform than a Constitutional crisis. Boy howdy did we get the quality of President we expected, but I’m still aghast at how little electoral reform we received. It’s as though the Republicans ended up ahead the last time there was a voting controversy, and so they aren’t really interested in resolving the underlying issue.
Slartibartfast
But that’s not what the SCOFL decided, Kimmitt. They decided on recounts in select locations.
The rest of your post is opinion dressed up as fact, and unworthy of comment.
CPTHAM
What everyone forgets is that had ALGORE been able to carry HIS OWN F’NG STATE, no recount in Fla. would have been required.
Kimmitt
From the same opinion:
“Moreover, since time is also of the essence in any statewide relief that the circuit court must consider, any further statewide relief should also be ordered forthwith and simultaneously with the manual tabulation of the Miami-Dade undervotes.”
To reiterate:
“Although we find that the appellants are entitled to reversal in part of the trial court’s order and are entitled to a manual count of the Miami-Dade County undervote, we agree with the appellees that the ultimate relief would require a counting of the legal votes contained within the undervotes in all counties where the undervote has not been subjected to a manual tabulation.”
The Florida Supreme Court all but ordered a statewide recount.
Now — again — if you wish to argue (correctly to my mind) that the election was essentially within the margin of error and your guy won the coin toss, that’s fine. Especially if you work with me to constrict that margin as much as possible for the future.
But I am tired of false arguments being presented — Gore asked for the relief which he was authorized to ask for under Florida law (Under the law, Gore is not even allowed to ask for recounts in areas where it is likely that he would be worse off; only Bush can do that) and made arguments regarding “intent” which were exactly the ones called for by Florida law. The Florida Supreme Court ordered a recount in the disputed areas and then suggested that while it could not legally order a statewide recount, it recommended to all parties that they go through the legal formalities which would give it the authority to do so.
Steve
I was pointing to the part of the law which Dean sought to ignore. In general, the Florida Supreme Court handed down the only sensible decision under Florida law, which was a statewide hand recount.
No, that’s not true. The Florida Court ordered a recount of only the undervote, not all ballots. Further, it ordered the Secretary of State to include partial recount totals from Miami-Dade county, totals that were not certified and that were cherry-picked from heavily Democratic precincts. In other words, those precints would have been counted more than other precints in the final tally.
The chief justice of the Florida Supreme Court said that the majority had crafted a ruling that had never before existed in Florida law. (I don’t have the exact quote handy, but I can get it.)
The US Supreme Court rightly concluded that the Florida Court was (a) not giving all voters in Florida an equal chance of having their vote count and (b) was violating the US Constitution by making up election rules, something that was reserved solely to the state legislatures.
Slartibartfast
Bingo, Steve.
If SCOFL had ordered a statewide recount, one would have begun before SCOTUS even had an appeal in front of them.
Kimmitt
“If SCOFL had ordered a statewide recount, one would have begun before SCOTUS even had an appeal in front of them.”
Bull. A statewide recount is exactly what the Bush campaign did not want; they would most certainly have sued to have it stayed until the SCOTUS could step in.
Again, read the opinion — it states that the Florida SC cannot order a statewide recount, but really thinks that it ought to happen, and practically begs the Gore and Bush campaigns to file suits in the various District Courts around Florida to get the ball rolling.
“The US Supreme Court rightly concluded that the Florida Court was (a) not giving all voters in Florida an equal chance of having their vote count and (b) was violating the US Constitution by making up election rules, something that was reserved solely to the state legislatures.”
The US Supreme Court made clear that this was a political ruling when it exempted it from stare decisis. “Listen, we’re calling the coin toss this once here; don’t you dare think about using this to empower voters later on.”
Slartibartfast
“Bull. A statewide recount is exactly what the Bush campaign did not want; they would most certainly have sued to have it stayed until the SCOTUS could step in.”
Thank you, Mr. Clairvoyant. Not only do you know what Bush wanted and didn’t want, but you know what they would have done had things turned out differently. How’s that stock portfolio doing?
“The Florida Supreme Court all but ordered a statewide recount.”
Well, which is it? They did, or didn’t? You can’t have it both ways.
“The US Supreme Court made clear that this was a political ruling when it exempted it from stare decisis. “Listen, we’re calling the coin toss this once here; don’t you dare think about using this to empower voters later on.””
Really, really handy being able to read between the lines like that, isn’t it? All SCOTUS said is, you can’t use this as a precedent. SCOTUS has made rulings like that before, without your accompanying outrage and conjectures regarding their motivations.
Just another fact-deprived post, Kimmitt.
Kimmitt
“SCOTUS has made rulings like that before, without your accompanying outrage and conjectures regarding their motivations.”
Cite.
“Thank you, Mr. Clairvoyant. Not only do you know what Bush wanted and didn’t want, but you know what they would have done had things turned out differently. How’s that stock portfolio doing?”
If Bush wanted a state recount, he could have asked for one under the Florida Supreme Court’s ruling. Instead, he appealed the ruling to the SCOTUS. This isn’t difficult.
“Well, which is it? They did, or didn’t? You can’t have it both ways.”
Read the damn opinion — it says that the Florida SC believes that a statewide recount is the only logical way to resolve the dispute and directs all district courts who receive a challenge in their districts to immediately order said recounts. Under Florida law, this was the extent of the Florida SC’s authority.
Slartibartfast
“Cite.”
Can’t find it; I retract.
“Read the damn opinion — it says that the Florida SC believes that a statewide recount is the only logical way to resolve the dispute and directs all district courts who receive a challenge in their districts to immediately order said recounts. Under Florida law, this was the extent of the Florida SC’s authority.”
The ONLY authority any court had in Florida was to order recounts in the districts specified by the petitioner. Unfortunately, those recounts were done using different standards than the initial counts. I trust you can see how this would be a problem.
Kimmitt
1) The initial counts were, of course, done by machine.
2) I see what you’re getting at, though — and, unfortunately, Florida law was excessively vague. Simply put, there was too much disagreement about what “intent of the voter” meant, and the Florida SC decided that the multiple interpretations wandering around the state were probably a bad idea all around. The SC then attempted to interpret the law to grant some kind of uniformity, for obvious reasons. This was the fault of the Legislature, and the Court had to work within its own capacities.
Again, I thoroughly concede that the election was within the margin of error for counting votes in Florida. But the only reasonable response at that point is to set some standards and do a statewide hand recount, which would give the best possible result. The SCOTUS stepped in and prevented that, and did so for what appears to be the purpose of selecting the Presidential candidate it found to be most appealing, rather than on any points of law.
All of which is heinous, but acceptable, if everyone would admit that that’s what happened so we could move forward with fixing the system so that its legitimacy is maintained.
Slartibartfast
Since you were gracious enough to put all that out there, I find myself compelled to admit that that particular part of the ruling was noted as having particular shock value: here’s our ruling, but you can’t use it as precedent. I found one paper that opined that they likely did this because of the short timeline involved, but it wasn’t a very compelling argument.
As for admissions, I have to say that I actually don’t know whether SCOTUS “really” selected Bush. So an admission that that was the case wouldn’t really be honest on my part.