Matt Stinson wonders if the left is going to savage Dean for having become a teetotaler in his mid-30’s, just like our current President. This raises some questions:
– As Matt noted, will Martin Sheen call Dean a “white-knuckle drunk?”
– Will Katherine van Wormer, Professor of Social Work at the University of Northern Iowa, write a lengthy bit of babble calling Dean a dry drunk?
– Will Michael O’Mcarthy state that Dean “shows every sign of a mental obsession that is rendering him dysfunctional” and that “this obsession that he alone is right in his view of the world is driven by the complex ingredients of egomania and inferiority symptomatic to that found in the medical diagnostic description of the illness of alcoholism.”
– Will Alan Bisbort state that Gov. Dean needs an intervention from the sober voices on the left?
– Will Salon have Joan Walsh write a lengthy essay on the Dean family alcohol problems like the hit piece she wrote about Barbara and Jenna Bush? Surely breaking into and robbing a Country Club is as serious as a couple of college kids trying to pass a fake id.
Just curious, you know.
*** Update ***
Fritz Schranck shows how careless rhetoric can destroy an entire argument.
David Perron
No, no, no, no, and no. That’s my prediction, anyhow.
Kimmitt
Depends — did Dean ever flee the National Guard during wartime to avoid taking a drug test?
Did he ever receive a conviction for DUI?
Is he famously renowned for his inarticulateness and shallowness of thought?
In other words, will Dean’s previous drinking serve as a distressing metaphor for the governor’s current failings, and will his past be full of examples of gross alcohol-related irresponsibility?
That said, the piece in Salon regarding Barbara and Jenna was out of bounds. Kids should be completely off-limits.
John Cole
So now he wasn’t AWOL, he was fleeing drug tests?
I have a conviction for DUI- from when I was the same age as George Bush ( I was 23 and in college- old for a sophomore because I spent 3 years on active duty before college). I plead no contest, and have never done anything since. Guess I can never count on your vote.
Is he famously renowned for his inarticulateness and shallowness of thought?
You mean he doesn’t speak in enormous circular rhetorical flourishes like Clinton and you disagree with his policies (therefore they must be shallow)? FWIW, I think Dean’s boilerplate DNC mumbo-jumbo is pretty incoherent and shallow- HE MUST BE A DRY DRUNK!
The Bush ‘dry drunk’ meme was nothing but a smear, and I am glad you are proving my point. Of course the left won’t attack Dean the same way they attacked Bush.
Moe Lane
“Depends — did Dean ever flee the National Guard during wartime to avoid taking a drug test?”
We’ll never know, thanks to his bad back. Poor fellow: must have been hard getting off of those ski lifts…
“Did he ever receive a conviction for DUI?”
Nope. Keep using those weapons that didn’t work the first time, and keep trying to fight the last election. No. Really. We appreciate it.
“Is he famously renowned for his inarticulateness and shallowness of thought?”
Pretty much on the latter: after all, he -did- oppose the war. (That’s just me being just as much a knee-jerk partisan meanie as Kimmitt is, btw.) As for inarticulate, Dean isn’t bad at public speaking, and I suppose that’s a good thing…
“In other words, will Dean’s previous drinking serve as a distressing metaphor for the governor’s current failings, and will his past be full of examples of gross alcohol-related irresponsibility?”
Probably not, seeing as his inability to keep his cool will make just a good a metaphor and his past is nicely filling up with enough examples of gross bile-related verbal irresponsibility to warm the heart of any VRWC Deathbeast.
“That said, the piece in Salon regarding Barbara and Jenna was out of bounds. Kids should be completely off-limits.”
Especially when your preferred candidate is equally in the soup, no doubt.
Moe
PS: The VRWC adknowledges the lack of links in the above post; like Kimmitt, we feel that the particular charges are sufficiently familar enough to any reasonably informed denizen of the blogosphere that supplying links to them would be redundant (and a bit of a time-waster, frankly).
We now return you to our previously-scheduled political free-for-all, already in progress.
David Perron
1) Dunno. Dunno anyone else who did that, either, and neither do you.
2) Dunno. Time will tell.
3) Dunno. Not sure to what extent what people believe to be true influences reality. Sounds like an appeal to belief, to me.
4) Probably not, outside of “fair and balanced” media.*
5) Agreed.
* That’s a joke, son.
Angelike
I don’t know if the two situations are analogous. If my recollection serves, Bush actually said he was an alcoholic who kicked it through prayer (not AA or a similar program). Dean seems to be saying that he was a jerk when he drank and, as he got older, the things he did that were funny when he was 18 just weren’t as funny when he decided to settle down and get married — so, he stopped drinking. I don’t really see the two the same.
Kimmitt
“Especially when your preferred candidate is equally in the soup, no doubt.”
What, did I use words of too many syllables or something? Kids. Should. Be. Off. Limits.
Sheesh.
paul revere
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Moe Lane
“What, did I use words of too many syllables or something? Kids. Should. Be. Off. Limits.”
My turn: You. Hate. Bush. So. Much. That. If. You. Give. Him. A. Pass. On. Any. Thing. We. Look. To. See. Why. And. Gee. Isn’t. There. A. Good. Reason?
Kimmitt
You’re correct. I hate Bush. What does that have to do with his daughters?
drew
Quote from the NY Daily News gossip “story”:
According to this Dean was an occasional bindge drinker. Bush on the other hand is an admited recovering alcoholic. While the two have their posh East Coast up-bringings in common you can’t compare their experiences with alcohol.
John when say “I have a conviction for DUI- from when I was the same age as George Bush ( I was 23 and in college- old for a sophomore because I spent 3 years on active duty before college)” Firts of all thanks for serving our country. Second, Bush was much much older than 23. According to the arrest record Bush was arrested for DUI in September 1976 making Bush 30 years of age. Your “math” is off by only seven years.
I do think it was unfair to go after the Bush twins, but no liberals have resorted to comparing the first daughter[s] to a dog ala Rush Limbaugh.
John Cole
There is one more big difference. Drunk driving was considered almost sport in 1976, whereas in 1993 it was pretty damned serious business. Chirping outrageously about Bush getting a DUI when the only penalty was a $50 ticket is absurd- DUI then and DUI now, while the same crime technically, are not the same crime at all.
drew
Cole,
Your lack of moral clarity is astounding. Bill Clinton and Monica didn’t break any laws when they engaged in “sexual relations” but their actions were morally wrong.
In 1976 did this “sport” kill people? Was it considered “sport” to drive drunk with your sister in the car with you?
Not too long ago men in this country could get away with spousal abuse… I could go on and on
Moe Lane
“You’re correct. I hate Bush. What does that have to do with his daughters?”
That every pronouncement that you make that’s even remotely related (pardon the pun) to the man has to be assessed with that fact in mind, not to mention your motivations – which are, shall we say, highly suspect in this matter.
This is one of the reasons why hatred is -bad-, by the way. Stick to anger: it’s cleaner.
HH
“I do think it was unfair to go after the Bush twins, but no liberals have resorted to comparing the first daughter[s] to a dog ala Rush Limbaugh.”
Nope, they’ve just done just about everything else. The difference is Limbaugh personally apologized for it to Hillary.
drew
HH,
Everything else? EVERYTHING ELSE?
What have any liberals done to the Bush twins other than going after their drinking isssues?
The dog incident was just a small part of a pattern of lude behavior by Rush.
Kimmitt
Again, what does hating Bush have to do with his daughters?
Is this some conservative “sins of the father” thing?
Moe Lane
“Again, what does hating Bush have to do with his daughters?”
“Is this some conservative “sins of the father” thing?”
No, this is a “Kimmitt hates Bush so much that the thought that he wouldn’t hate Bush’s daughters either beggars belief” thing.
jesse
There is one more big difference. Drunk driving was considered almost sport in 1976, whereas in 1993 it was pretty damned serious business. Chirping outrageously about Bush getting a DUI when the only penalty was a $50 ticket is absurd- DUI then and DUI now, while the same crime technically, are not the same crime at all.
That’s a very morally relativistic argument John, I’m surprised. It’s like saying that segregation wasn’t as bad in 1953 as it was in 1963 because there wasn’t a penalty for it in 1953. (Not that I’m saying a DUI and segregation are the same thing, for the moral stridency hawks out there.)
Just because a crime was more common doesn’t make it more okay. I think the drunk stuff is bullshit on either side, but please.
John Cole
It is a relativistic argument, but very much true, and the very basis that Democrats use to excuse the early racism of Robert Byrd.
IN the early 1970’s and before, there was no MADD, there was no large outrage over drunk driving, thre was no political will to curb drunk driving, and this was reflected in enforcement efforts and in the punitive sanctions levied on those found guilty of driving under the influence. This may be relativism, but it is also historical accuracy.
Likewise, the behavior of Byrd in the late 1940’s when he was a klan leader, while we both agree it is an abomination, was not as stigmatized and as outrageous as it is today.
The world changes, political views change, laws change, and thus holding people to modern standards for past behavior is not relativism but a cheap shot. IN fact, the founding fathers even had an opinion (sort of) on this issue. We have all heard of Ex Post Facto laws, haven’t we?
jesse
We’ve also heard of making sense. Or at least I have.
Byrd has repudiated his Klan days as wrong. And they were. I don’t excuse the evil of what he did, but I’m also willing to accept that that’s not who he is anymore. NOBODY’S saying it was okay because it was the 40’s, which is a weird argument to begin with, and one that smells of straw, if you catch my drift. We’re not talking about criminal responsibility here – like I said, your little example opens up a whole can of moral worms I don’t think you want to get into.
And my point wasn’t that holding people to present standards is relativism – it was the exact opposite, quite frankly. The wrongness of an action isn’t made any less wrong because people thought it was okay back then. One could very easily transfer your argument to the Middle East and say that because terrorism is more accepted there as a tool of political change than it is here, we shouldn’t fight it.
I’m hoping that’s not what you’re saying, because even my liberal-lefty ass doesn’t think that.
John Cole
What I am trying to say, and apparently not doing a very good job of it, is that the action itself is just as wrong today s it was then, but it was not perceived as that wrong then. To pretend that a DUI was perceived as the same crime today as it was back then is absurd, but that does not exucse the actual DUI itself.
Does that make sense?
rea
Does that make sense?
No.
It was a crime back then, after all. Even under your morally relativistic standards, therefore, drunk driving was something that was treated as a serious wrong back in 1976.
Is GWB the first convicted criminal to become president?
HH
The endless lewd suggestions about the Bush twins, the search for an alleged video of one Jenna drunk, the offer from Dem hero Larry Flynt for them to pose nude, etc. The nonsense from the likes of Eric Alterman that this somehow speaks badly of Bush himself, etc.
Ricky
I’m not aware that Bush admitted to being an alcoholic (and I’ve asked folks to bring up their source for three years running). He said he drank too much.
Anyone got a source?
greg
Yeah, John, it was a bad comparison.
The only time drinking and driving is acceptable to someone on the left is if it’s a senator from Massachusettes and they kill their passenger.
Kimmitt
‘No, this is a “Kimmitt hates Bush so much that the thought that he wouldn’t hate Bush’s daughters either beggars belief” thing.’
I’m not you.
Moe Lane
“I’m not you.”
Well, duh: if you were me, you wouldn’t be going around hating Bush as some sort of living avatar of [insert local paramount evil supernatural figure here], and we wouldn’t have to go through the regrettable necessity doublecheck every single post you make regarding any aspect of the man and/or his life for reactionary partisanship.
Really, Kimmitt, that was possibly the weakest comeback I’ve ever seen you do. Have you been getting enough sleep lately?
Moe Lane
OTOH, if you -were- me, you’d have to work on using the preview button: this section should read
“we wouldn’t have to go through the regrettable necessity of doublechecking every single post you make regarding any aspect of the man (and/or his life) for your usual reactionary partisanship.”
Please note accordingly. And make sure that you’re getting enough vitamins, of course.
(: Tom :)
Moe, your rhetoric sounds an awful lot like Clinton-hating to me.
Maybe you should focus on your own hatred, and how it blinds you to the world of hurt that America is in right now.
Moe Lane
“Moe, your rhetoric sounds an awful lot like Clinton-hating to me.”
Moi? As a general rule I do my best to avoid hating people. You see, hate stems from fear, and as we all know, fear is the mind-killer*. It’s /Kimmitt/ who professes his hate – specifically, Bush, although I suspect that the Right in general or the Republican Party in particular would do in a pinch. So go talk to /him/ first (even if you think that I’m full of it)…
Moe
*Kimmitt simply /annoys/ me, which is probably what he’s aiming for in the first place: OTOH, I’m home sick from work today and easily bored at the best of times, so it’s something to do.
Dugger
BTW, John. This was an excellent post. You can tell because its worked up the lefties into a more inarticulate than usual lather. They usually go through a certain amount of formulaic verbal posturing before lapsing into Bush hating screeds. This time they went directly to the hate. Well done.
Kimmitt
“Kimmitt simply /annoys/ me, which is probably what he’s aiming for in the first place”
1) Good on you for actually getting one right.
2) My point was simple; my problem is with George W. Bush and his policies and has nothing to do with his children. You may be the sort of person who transfers that kind of dislike onto blameless children. I am not. “I think you think we think like you think.”
Moe Lane
“My point was simple; my problem is with George W. Bush and his policies and has nothing to do with his children.”
My point is just as simple: I don’t believe you, because you’re open in your hatred of the man – and there’s a plausible alternate reason for your sudden forbearance. To wit, if Bush’s daughters become fair game, then so does Dean’s son. IOW, your motives are deeply, deeply suspect.
I think that we’ve chewed the bones on this one enough, don’t you?
Moe
PS: Your current sluggishness might be due to dehydration: it’s amazing how many people in this country don’t drink enough water. A couple of more glasses a day might perk you right up…
Charlie T.
So what’s the point of this post? That Dean is a bad person because he used to drink? That he’s bad because he stopped drinking? That it’s OK for you to be unconcerned about Bush’s past re: alcohol, but Democrats who don’t denounce Dean are hypocrites?
I will say, however, that any crimes Dean commits in the future or has committed in the past are definitely within the bounds of fair commentary.
Meezer
If, I say *if* Bush is a recovered alcoholic, that puts him one up on Dean since it takes greater will power and backbone to stop drinking, as opposed to that required from someone who could take-it-or-leave-it. Any Dems want to change their mind about the alcoholism now?
rea
“If, I say *if* Bush is a recovered alcoholic, that puts him one up on Dean since it takes greater will power and backbone to stop drinking, as opposed to that required from someone who could take-it-or-leave-it.”
By that reasoning, we should elect a recovered heroin-addicted serial killer president. What will-power!
a lesser mongbat
When I killed that kid, they didn’t have mandatory minimum sentences. Totally different ballgame- the public perception of kid-murder was a lot less harsh then, ya know?
So gimme stuff.