Beautiful Friend, The End
Mark Halperin details what we have all known for a long time, but for some reason or another, no one is saying:
1. She can’t win the nomination without overturning the will of the elected delegates, which will alienate many Democrats.2. She can’t win the nomination without a bloody convention battle — after which, even if she won, history and many Democrats would cast her as a villain.
3. Catching up in the popular vote is not out of the question — but without re-votes in Florida and Michigan it will be almost as impossible as catching up in elected delegates.
Now, however, Richardson is saying it:
My great affection and admiration for Hillary Clinton and President Bill Clinton will never waver.It is time, however, for Democrats to stop fighting amongst ourselves and to prepare for the tough fight we will face against John McCain in the Fall.
The 1990’s were a decade of peace and prosperity because of the competent and enlightened leadership of the Clinton administration, but it is now time for a new generation of leadership to lead America forward.
Stop ripping the party apart, Hillary. It is time for Mark Penn to stop penning the McCain commercials.
Even the media is signaling that they are unwilling to continue to play along with this fantasy:
One big fact has largely been lost in the recent coverage of the Democratic presidential race: Hillary Rodham Clinton has virtually no chance of winning.Her own campaign acknowledges there is no way that she will finish ahead in pledged delegates. That means the only way she wins is if Democratic superdelegates are ready to risk a backlash of historic proportions from the party’s most reliable constituency.
Unless Clinton is able to at least win the primary popular vote — which also would take nothing less than an electoral miracle — and use that achievement to pressure superdelegates, she has only one scenario for victory. An African-American opponent and his backers would be told that, even though he won the contest with voters, the prize is going to someone else.
People who think that scenario is even remotely likely are living on another planet.
As it happens, many people inside Clinton’s campaign live right here on Earth. One important Clinton adviser estimated to Politico privately that she has no more than a 10 percent chance of winning her race against Barack Obama, an appraisal that was echoed by other operatives.
In other words: The notion of the Democratic contest being a dramatic cliffhanger is a game of make-believe.
This really is over, as far as the election is concerned. The only remaining questions are how many last gasps the Clinton campaign has left, and how much damage they will do to the Democratic party as a whole over the next few months.
demimondian
Frankly, John, very little damage to the party as a whole. I think she needs to stick it out until PA —and then step aside. I don’t think that she can fairly step aside without a primary or caucus to hang the decision on.
Davis X. Machina
2012.
That’s the new plan.
Pooh
Demi?
What?
rob!
my girlfriend and i scream at MSNBC when we hear one of their correspondents say something to the effect of “the race is essentially tied.” its happened at least once a day for the last week.
sure, if one side being ahead in every single metric that is used to determine the winner means a tie, then yeah, i guess its tied.
and Hillary believes the media has it in for HER?
Dug Jay
Looks like it may be too late. Here’s a story from ABC News that tells a grim story for both Obama and Clinton and the Democrats:
In the new Franklin & Marshall College Poll (read it HERE) some good news for Sen. Hillary Clinton, D-NY, and some troubling news for Democrats.
Clinton leads Sen. Barack Obama, D-Illinois, 51% to 35%—increasing her lead from February, when she was up 44% to 37%. She leads among young voters, wealthier voters…voters in virtually every demographic group, with the exceptions of Philly voters and non-whites.
In a sign of just how divisive and ugly the Democratic fight has gotten, only 53% of Clinton voters say they’ll vote for Obama should he become the nominee. Nineteen percent say they’ll go for Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., and 13% say they won’t vote.
Sixty percent of Obama voters say they’ll go for Clinton should she win the nomination, with 20% opting for McCain, and three percent saying they won’t vote.
Pooh
This has been another edition of Dug Jay’s “This News is Bad For Democrats”
demimondian
Pooh, are you saying I was being elliptical and obscure?
Here’s my thinking: Clinton has supporters. I think that for them to be satisfied that she did her best, fought the good fight, and lost to a different, but also great candidate, she needs to have a solid rationalization for her departure. She won’t have one of those until there’s a primary where she’s lost or there’s a tally of delegates which throws her out. The former won’t happen until PA at the earliest. The latter will not happen until the convention organizers meet for the first time.
Cyrus
The talking point among Clinton supporters at some blogs I read is that Hillary is leading the popular vote if you only look at states with closed primaries. Or maybe in states with open primaries they discount the non-registered Democrats — based on exit polls? Whatever the exact thing math is, this, like delegate rules and caucus problems and most of the other stupidity of the primary, is the kind of thing that should be addressed before or after a race, not during. Are open primaries always bad, or just when they actually influence stuff?
cleek
she has one: she can’t win.
Dug Jay
she needs to have a solid rationalization for her departure
she has one: she can’t win.
Neither can he.
James B.
I just hope she bashes the shit out of your stinking Party. McCain’s already in a dead heat with Obama. Looks like half the Democrats agree with him, your nominee-elect-elect isn’t worth voting for.
This election’s gonna be a fun one!
John Cole
When Clinton loses them, they are always bad.
SATSQ, Volume Eleventy Billion.
Andrew
Cyrus,
How would you have a closed primary in a state with no requirement of party affiliation to register to vote?
Chris
I’ve been seeing these numbers for a while now, and I can’t say I’m too concerned. I remember back when the Republican race was as heated as our own (Ah, nostalgia for those halcyon days of… two months ago) we had Republican after Republican swearing up and down and left and right that they’d never vote for John McCain and that they’d rather vote for Obama/Clinton than that RINO McCain. They probably even meant it when they said it too.
Since then, I’d wager a lot of them have changed their minds.
These primary contests are heated affairs, with voters latching onto their candidates and fighting it out with fellow party members over comparatively minute differences in policy. I think it’s asking a lot of someone to have them break from that tribal mode of thinking in the middle of the battle and pledge they’d endorse the other candidate should their preferred politician lose.
Once this ends (and I can’t see it ending any later than June), people will calm down and, with their candidate’s blessing, rally behind the Democratic nominee.
Ok, rational analysis done. Switching back to rabid Obama partisan in 5…4…
Jake
Point of order: If we call The Politico “the media,” we also have to call The Washington Times “the media.”
I don’t things are that bad yet.
NR
The superdelegates are not going to call this thing before the PA primary. They are going to want to wait and see how badly the Wright debacle has hurt Obama with white voters.
And if Obama loses whites big in PA, I don’t think the supers will nominate him, because he’ll be guaranteed to lose the GE to McCain.
L. Ron Obama
We need to hold off on the nomination and let this process play out until two or three years after the presidential election, so we can wait and see which scandals will have hurt each nominee and make our selection appropriately. Otherwise we’ll never beat McCain.
orogeny
Can someone please explain to me what the heck the super delegates are for? I was under the apparently mistaken assumption that they were created for two purposes…to make the final decision in a close primary race and/or to make a decision as to who the nominee should be in the case of a McGovern-type situation where a candidate that was not electable had a strong following among primary voters managed to out-poll a candidate who had a better chance of winning the general election.
Why did the party set up the super delegate system if the candidate who wins the most elected delegates is absolutely guaranteed the nomination?
Walker
I remember back when the Republican race was as heated as our own (Ah, nostalgia for those halcyon days of… two months ago) we had Republican after Republican swearing up and down and left and right that they’d never vote for John McCain and that they’d rather vote for Obama/Clinton than that RINO McCain.
This cannot be repeated often enough. Once the nomination is done, people will start lining up behind the democratic nominee. Especially when a few more bank failures (here’s looking at you WAMU) rattle everyone and people realize that McCain has absolutely zero plans for the economy that aren’t “4 more years of Bush”.
L. Ron Obama
This is like the Friedman Unit of the Democratic nomination process, with the next turning point always six weeks away.
Velvet Elvis
She reminds me of Gollum. Now all she has to do is snatch her precious from Frodo and fall into the Cracks of Doom.
The Other Steve
And if that happens, the GE is given to McCain because the Obama supporters will abandon the party.
IT
AIN’T
GONNA
HAPPEN
p.lukasiak
Oh, I get it John. Lets ignore all the states like Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Oregon, North Carolina, and Indiana where Democrats might have a shot in November, and give Obama the nomination based on his wins in Idaho, Wyoming, Utah, Kansas, Alaska, Georgia, Mississippi, Alabama, Nebraska, and South Carolina which the Dems won’t win unless there is a landslide.
And while we’re at it, lets do everything possible to piss off Democratic voters in two other key states, Michigan and Florida, just to make sure that we treat as many potential democratic voters in key states as utter trash—while we bow down to the choice of Democratic voters in deep red states.
Yeah, now THAT’s a really sound general election strategy.
orogeny
Sorry about the typo…should have been: “was not electable but had a strong following”
Svensker
I am so not touching this line.
NR
Cute. But wishing really hard won’t make the Wright problems go away.
The superdelegates are not going to nominate someone who is a guaranteed loser in the GE. Period. And they are not going to make a decision until they can find out whether or not Obama fits that description.
The Other Steve
Lay off the crackpipe.
BFR
I think it’s to avoid having a crippled nominee. Think the dead girl/live boy scenario. The supers can come in and award the nomination to someone else should that happen.
Personally, I think the Richardson announcement is the nail in the coffin – he’s the kind of guy who wouldn’t pull the trigger unless it was pretty much a certainty since he’s woulda been in a position to take a high cabinet level spot in either a Hillary or Obama administration. Burning his bridges to camp Hillary is a big deal.
NR
Well, then we’re fucked either way, aren’t we?
Paging Al Gore. Your party, and your country, need you.
quickdraw
Hey, now, don’t blame Hillary. She’s hoping for change, which I hear is a perfectly cromulent strategy for running just about anything.
p.lukasiak
that will only happen if Obama acts like a spoiled child, and doesn’t do everything in his power to ensure that his minions support Clinton.
If Clinton loses because Obama sits out the GE, that’s it for his future in the Democratic Party.
Neither candidate can win without the votes of the supporters of the other candidate. I have no doubt that if Obama is the nominee, she will do everything she is asked to ensure an Obama victory—- but when I hear this kind of crap coming from Obama supporters, it bothers me a lot because from what I’ve seen of Obama, he is capable of taking his ball and going home if he doesn’t get his coronation.
BFR
I haven’t seen the polling to be honest but I think Obama is going to mop the floor in Oregon. Demographically, it’s not that different than WA.
Pooh
What?
You mean when they have a debate and McCain is shown to be a doddering old man who doesn’t know shit about shit, Jeremiah Wright will still determine the outcome? In that case, we’re doomed regardless.
The Other Steve
I don’t really see how.
We go with Obama. He’s the choice of the people, and there’s nothing about his candidacy that strikes anybody as seriously bad.[Outside of those smoking crackpipes.]
NR
“Coronation?”
Obama has won the most votes AND the most delegates. He beat Hillary fair and square. She was the one who wanted a coronation.
The Other Steve
Quit acting like a spoiled little child smoking a crackpipe.
Velvet Elvis
At this point, they might also want to think about avoiding rioting because that’s what’s going to happen if they shun the popular vote and delegate count.
NR
Don’t forget that we’re talking about an electorate that voted for George W. Bush twice.
James B.
We haven’t even begun to dig up dirt on Obama yet, Dems. By all means, vote for his ass. By the time it’s too late, he’ll pull your whole fucking party down with him.
Hillary’s almost as bad, but at least if you fucks nominate her you’ll be able to pretend it was HER fault your Party lost, not your Party’s fault.
The Other Steve
p.lukasiak doesn’t seem to get it.
Obama supporters have really committed to his candidacy. This isn’t just a case of “Ohwell, she’s been around a lot, has a nice name and it’s her turn”.
This is a case of we WANT IT ALL, AND WE WANT IT NOW!
You DO NOT piss off that group of voters by telling them to fuck off and expect them to turn around and still support you.
The Other Steve
Hillary’s almost as bad, but at least if you fucks nominate her you’ll be able to pretend it was HER fault your Party lost, not your Party’s fault.
You guys nominated McCain.
Do you not realize how bad he is?
orogeny
I’m curious…I’ve asked the question in a couple of threads and it always gets ignored.
Is my question about the reason why we have super delegates a stupid one? If so, can someone tell me why? To me it seems to be pretty important. If the super delegates were created to serve the purposes that I described in my previous post, then it makes no sense for Hillary to get out of the race before the convention as long as she is close enough to Obama in elected delegates to win with the supers.
p.lukasiak
no, they’ll wait and see if he can stage a comback in states like Indiana and Kentucky—or at least North Carolina. I think if he loses NC, it will be all over for him—because if, as expected he carries 80-90% of the black vote there (which makes up about 1/3 of the Democratic electorate) all he needs is 35% of the non-black vote (if he carries 80% of the black vote) or 30% of the non-black vote (if he carries 90% of the black vote) to win.
And if he can’t get that 30-35% of the non-black vote in North Carolina, he’s sunk.
Pooh
Hillary’s almost as bad, but at least if you fucks nominate her you’ll be able to pretend it was HER fault your Party lost, not your Party’s fault.
[x] Grade A concern-trollery.
[ ] Would read again.
BFR
Oh really? What’s your source oh Mr. Oracle of political scandals?
The Other Steve
Dude, it’s time to stop channeling your inner-racist.
over_educated
I would like to give Hillary the benefit of the doubt on this, but if she loses and is eyeing 2012… Let’s just say I will believe it when I see it.
John Cole
His coronation? His coronation?
What fucking planet are you on? Hillary was leading the polls by how muc ha year ago? she had an organization, name recognition, the goodwill of millions grateful for her husband’s administration, the party apparatus, the best and the brightest minds in the Democratic party. Obama was at what- 5%?
One person worked his ass off and made a kickass organization that has done their homework, worked in EVERY state, worked to excite the electorate, has a million plus donors and has brought MILLIONS of voters to the party. Another ran on inevitability and thought the coronation was on Super Tuesday and didn’t even have a plan for after that.
Someone was looking for a coronation, it just wasn’t Obama. I agree with the previous commenter, Lukasiak. Lay off the crackpipe.
p.lukasiak
Nobody is telling you to “fuck off”. Its people like you who insist upon rewriting the rules in your candidates favor (e.g. if he has the most pleged delegates, he must be nominated
) then demanding that those fake rules be followed, and hand the nomination to Obama by acclaimation, that are the ones saying “fuck off” to everyone else.
You’re the fucking political version of Verucka Salt.
Pooh
Lukasiak just proves that, sadly, Dems can be every bit the WATB’s as Republicans.
BFR
It probably doesn’t make any sense for her to jump out of the race until the super delegates start to break at least from what I think.
A 10% chance after all is better than a 0% chance and Huckabee stayed in with 0% – didn’t sink the GOP any lower than it already was.
Again, that’s why I think Richardson is a big deal. He’s precisely the type who’s going to wait on the sidelines as long as possible since his decision to back Obama is a pretty major commitment from him.
We’ll see if Edwards follows suit – he’s another candidate to play a part in either an Obama or Clinton administration.
Mr. DAve
I still like the theory that Hillary is staying in for 2 reasons:
1) Hope that Obama has a dramatic flameout for some reason (Wright isn’t it) and that he drops out.
2) Hope to damage Obama so much that he loses to McCain in the Genera and then HIllary can run in ‘12 w/ a “see, I told you so.” campaign.
Mr. Dave
I still like the theory that Hillary is staying in for 2 reasons:
1) Hope that Obama has a dramatic flameout for some reason (Wright isn’t it) and that he drops out.
2) Hope to damage Obama so much that he loses to McCain in the Genera and then HIllary can run in ‘12 w/ a “see, I told you so.” campaign.
The Other Steve
Huh? That’s all you’ve been doing. Telling us all to fuck off, Obama doesn’t deserve the nomination because it’s Hillary’s turn. Whatever.
Lay off the fucking crackpipe.
Cyrus
That’s my understanding too, and I read a third reason for them recently: if a candidate did well early on and got a commanding lead in pledged delegates, but then burned out for whatever reason, the career party members like superdelegates voting at the last minute could tip the nomination to whoever the challenger is who overtook the frontrunner.
The thing is, none of those situations apply here. According to CNN, Obama has more than a hundred delegates more than Clinton. Yeah, that’s small compared to the total number of about 4,000 available, but I’m pretty sure it’s not a small enough margin to trigger an automatic recount in a state election. As for electability, both Obama and Clinton would have obvious weaknesses, but I think Obama is at least a bit more electable than her. And as for a last-minute changes, I think things have been pretty stable. If anyone’s been outperforming expectations, it’s him, not her. I prefer him, obviously, so take this for what it’s worth, but your reasons don’t seem like reasons for superdelegates to favor either candidate, but especially not Obama.
And as for my reason, you never know, someone might find an actual, serious skeleton in Obama’s closet at some point. If they do, I don’t think I’d have a problem with superdelegates swinging the nomination to Clinton. Until we get into”dead girl or live boy” territory, though, I think I’d be one of many people who would be pissed off if the superdelegates cast the deciding votes for Hillary.
Jake
Irony-o-Meter: [Kaboom!]
p.lukasiak
oh, now I’m a racist because I suggest that Obama has to establish that he can appeal to at least a third of non-black voters in a democratic primary if he expects the Super=delegates to not commit-political hari-kari, and instead nominate him based primarily on his performance in Deep Red states, and in caucuses whose outcomes are provably at odds with the will of the overall electorate in a given state.
James B.
Just you wait, shithead. Just you wait.
Studly Pantload
This thread is suffering from an all-out crack epidemic.
markg8
“That means the only way she wins is if Democratic superdelegates are ready to risk a backlash of historic proportions from the party’s most reliable constituency.”
Black voters aren’t the only ones. I’m a 52 year old white male Democratic precinct committeeman in my town. I can’t justify to myself let alone to voters on their doorsteps the way Hillary has run her campaign and Bill trading favors to dictators and fatcats since 2001 to build that monument to himself, the library in Arkansas.
If she manages to swindle her way to the nomination she’ll have to find someone else to canvass my precinct for her because I’ll be spending my time helping my local candidates fight a much tougher uphill battle with her at top of the ticket.
ThymeZone
Christ, another day of this tedious moronic bullshit?
Give it a rest, man. In the name of all that’s decent and holy, for the love of Dog, give it a fucking rest.
p.lukasiak
Since I’ve never said that it’s Hillary’s turn, NOW I’ll tell you
FUCK THE FUCK OFF YOU FUCKING FUCKHEAD!
libarbarian
I cant read mind but until now, Clinton’s actions have been indistinguishable from those of someone who desires her party to lose if she doesn’t get the nomination. Obama has acted the same way a person would act if they were going to support their parties nominee even if it’s not him.
And yet, for some reason, you are are confident that Hillary is going to support Obama but worried Obama will tell his people to abandon Clinton.
Are we even looking at the same reality?
ThymeZone
January: President Obama.
I like the sound of it. Even John McCain, through his haze of senility, will like the sound of it. He will be thinking, thank Jesus that I don’t have to take that damn job.
The Other Steve
You’re a racist, because you keep bringing race into the debate.
Obama already proved he could appeal to a wide demographic when he won Iowa. That was the barrier that surprised the hell out of everybody and propelled him forward. Since then he has won NUMEROUS states with all types of demographic mixes.
James B.
John McCain shits bigger than you Democrat cowards.
ThymeZone
Just breathe into this paper bag for a few minutes ….
NickM
For his next trick, p.lukasiak is going to accuse Obama of trying to marry his way to the Democratic nomination.
The Other Steve
That’s all you’ve been saying. You have had no other justification for Hillary being the nominee other than “It’s her turn”, or “She fucked Bill Clinton”.
It’s hardly qualifications I’d put on a resume for the job, but that’s all you’ve got.
PeterJ
Fixed.
ThymeZone
Yeah, maybe he can make that a campaign slogan?
p.lukasiak
I’m visiting your planet—you know, the one where not even getting close to the number of pledged delegates gives you the divine right to the nomination, as long as you have more pledged delegates than whoever is in second place.
Its the same planet where your candidate’s opposition has a divine obligation to drop out of the race despite the fact that she has an excellent chance of, if not winning the pledged delegate race outright, closing the gap sufficiently by wins in later, and swing, states to show that she is the better candidate.
This is your freaking planet, John.
Gus
Just you wait, meaning you have no fucking idea? Nice answer troll.
ThymeZone
I don’t say this very often but I just really love pie.
BFR
Nice language…anyway, I think you’re being pretty naive. Candidates these days have armies of people to dig into everyone’s past – including their own. This Wright stuff has been floating around forever as has been pointed out – it’s just that someone finally decided to make a story out of it.
p.lukasiak
and since then, Wright happened, Rezko happened, 3AM red phone happened, and the political geography may have shifted a little…
over_educated
The thing is, none of those situations apply here. According to CNN, Obama has more than a hundred delegates more than Clinton. Yeah, that’s small compared to the total number of about 4,000 available, but I’m pretty sure it’s not a small enough margin to trigger an automatic recount in a state election. As for electability, both Obama and Clinton would have obvious weaknesses, but I think Obama is at least a bit more electable than her. And as for a last-minute changes, I think things have been pretty stable. If anyone’s been outperforming expectations, it’s him, not her. I prefer him, obviously, so take this for what it’s worth, but your reasons don’t seem like reasons for superdelegates to favor either candidate, but especially not Obama.
And as for my reason, you never know, someone might find an actual, serious skeleton in Obama’s closet at some point. If they do, I don’t think I’d have a problem with superdelegates swinging the nomination to Clinton. Until we get into”dead girl or live boy” territory, though, I think I’d be one of many people who would be pissed off if the superdelegates cast the deciding votes for Hillary.
To follow up on Cyrus’s excellent post I know your next quesiton is, “then why don’t we just let this play out until the convention?”
I will tell you why: because the longer this bruising primary battle goes on, the harder it will be for a Democrat to win the GE. So you have a balancing act here, at what point does “not committing to see what happens” more damaging than just choosing a side and pivoting to deal with the general eleciton. I think most of the folks here feel we are beyond the point were sitting on the sidelines will really provide any long-term benefit to the party that won’t be massivly outweighed by the damage done.
The Other Steve
Is that why he wears Depends under garments?
Svensker
We haven’t even begun to dig up milkshake on milkshakes yet, Dems. By all means, vote for his milkshake. By the time it’s too late, he’ll pull your whole milkshaking milkshake down with him.
Hillary’s almost as milkshake, but at least if you milkshakes milkshake her you’ll be able to pretend it was HER milkshake your milkshake lost, not your milkshake’s fault.
Pie filter’s not working today. But milkshakes are so cold and creamy!
Jake
Fixed.
Dug Jay
TOS: “Dude, it’s time to stop channeling your inner-racist.”
Provoking this response:
This exchange represents a good example of why the Democrats are truly fucked this year. A supporter on one side makes a comment about the opposing side, and the immediate reaction from the other side is to label that person a “racist.” While this is par for the course for liberals, it isn’t going to help win a general election when such epithets are hurled blindly and freely at fellow Democrats. Every single such vote will be needed in November, and this nastiness only serves to aid McCain.
myiq2xu
If it’s “over,” why hasn’t Obama won yet?
SASQ - Because it ain’t over.
p.lukasiak
since I’ve never said either of those things, allow me to repeat…
FUCK
THE
FUCK
OFF
YOU
FUCKING
FUCKHEAD!
ntr Fausto Carmona
0/10. Go back to posting lolcats to 4chan, the adults are trying to have a conversation here.
The Other Steve
Put down the crack pipe.
the only thing that’s changed is the Republicans have started targeting him in coordination with Hillary Clinton.
Once Hillary is out of there, we can direct our big guns back at McCain and drive his negatives up.
James B.
Well, let’s see Obama try and deny it.
No, it means I’m not doing your homework for you. The information’s out there, look up your dream-man yourself.
over_educated
This thread is made of win.
The Other Steve
FUCK
THE
FUCK
OFF
YOU
FUCKING
FUCKHEAD!
You aren’t half as pissed off as I am at you and your demand for a coronation bullshit.
ntr Fausto Carmona
Because denial doesn’t just run through Egypt, it runs through the Clinton campaign too.
cleek
it’s working fine for me. the only problem is that at least 1/3 of the comments are from the pie lovers. the signal to pie ratio is very low.
James B.
Fuck you.
BFR
I’m in the camp that says it doesn’t matter. McCain’s got a nice biography and no one is really actively campaigning against him so his approvals are going up. Also, there’s nothing that’s coming out now in the primary that’s not also going to be an ‘issue’ in the GE, so I don’t think it matters much on that score either.
One other point – the biggest weapon the GOP has on it’s side right now is the monster independent groups like Freedom’s Watch and their self-reported $250 million. Not having a candidate to train their money on is probaby a disadvantage for them – it’s going to force them to dump all of their money in a shorter period of time – robbing of the chance to poll test in smaller markets means that they’re going to have to resort to more spam like efforts that are likely to be less effective.
My 2 cents at least.
ntr Fausto Carmona
Newsflash: Wright scandal has blown over.
ThymeZone
What TOS said, plus this:
Pie is really the most delicious thing. I love pie.
ntr Fausto Carmona
0/10. Seriously, try again when you’re older, kid.
myiq2xu
So a year ago we were united. Now we are divided.
Whose fault is it?
NR
Okay, this thread has gone all cracky, so let me just say this. I hope Obama will make a good showing with whites in PA and render this whole conversation moot.
Oh, and JamesB is an idiot, but we all knew that already.
ntr Fausto Carmona
Which will make it that much harder to bring them down to beatable levels, especially considering the media’s love affair with Senator Straight Talk.
The sooner we stop fragging each other and the sooner we start fragging McCain, the better.
The Other Steve
Whose fault is it?
I blame Bill Clinton.
James B.
I gave you the response you deserved, and I’ll give it again:
Fuck. You.
People like you are the reason the Democrats are a sinking ship. Your party’s morally and intellectually bankrupt, and run by a corrupt national machine that makes the Mafia look like a paragon of ethics. This whole Clinton-Obama foofaraw is like reading about a gang war between Al Capone and Bugs Moran. Whoever wins is still a crook, and loses once McCain shows up in November. So, fuck you, fuck your candidates, and fuck your RICO-statute-inspiration of a Party.
p.lukasiak
the last time someone cited this poll (or something similar) I said it was meaningless and pointless even though it favored Clinton.
So I feel free in saying the exact same thing to your citation—its a meaningless and pointless poll.
Velvet Elvis
And she’ll be ready on day one with the best focus group tested political propaganda the nation has ever seen.
Newsflash: The MSM doesn’t shape political reality any more than the weather man makes it rain. Turn off the damn TV and talk to your neighbors.
over_educated
SIR! The Irony detector is exploding!
chopper
if a bunch of “political elders” in a smoke-filled back room take the nomination out of the hands of a black man in first place and give it to the white candidate in second place given the conditions we’re seeing right now, there’s little obama will be able to do to stem the extreme anger in the black community that will follow.
blacks have been feeling for years like the democratic party has taken them for granted. yet they’ve stayed the most reliable voting bloc around. but this sort of thing would drive them away, no question. and they’ll take the youth vote with em, as well as a good chunk of the labor and progressive wings of the party.
trust me, it’ll be a bloodbath.
ntr Fausto Carmona
Fuck. You.
Well, then. Let me give you the response you deserve:
Svensker
Whose fault is it?
I nominate James B! He keeps throwing pie, thus interfering with the signal to pie ratio, as explained above.
James B.
Eat shit. Mark Foley and Larry Craig do not equal corrupt cronyism, machine electoral politics, and raising the zombie dead vote. If America ever held an honest election, Illinois would be as red as Georgia and New Jersey would be deep in the purple.
ntr Fausto Carmona
So I feel free in saying the exact same thing to your citation—its a meaningless and pointless poll.
In other words, it beats the ‘Wright ruined Obama’ narrative so you’ll just ignore it.
BFR
The sooner we stop fragging each other and the sooner we start fragging McCain, the better.
It’s such a target-rich environment, I just don’t see how he’s going to hold up against even a minimal level of scrutiny. April to November is a painfully long time (especially if you’re a GOP operative).
I mean, seriously how long does it take to point out that his foreign policy is based on fantasy and his domestic policy basically doesn’t exist?
Biography-based candidates (McCain circa 2000, Dole, Kerry, Wes Clark) tend not to hold up very well to any level of scrutiny.
Not to mention the fact that the only reason McCain is there today is because Huckabee torpedoed Romney – it’s not like there’s any more GOP enthusiasm for the guy than there was a year ago.
James B.
None of you people make any sense. Is this a blog for people on acid or something?
The Other Steve
Side effect of smoking crackpipes.
myiq2xu
The thing is, none of those situations apply here.
NEWSFLASH - The delegates don’t vote until August. There are still primaries scheduled.
I’ve been hearing MUPpets proclaim that it’s “over” since Iowa. Can we wait for the actual convention to count the votes?
Obama can’t win without some of the automatic delegates, even though he has the lead right now. It doesn’t say anywhere in the rules that the automatic delegates have to vote for whoever is in the lead.
The Other Steve
Try proteinwisdom.com. It’s more up your alley.
p.lukasiak
gee, and wasn’t it just a few days ago that Obama gave the greatest speech ever given in the history of mankind, telling both black and white people that its time to transcend their racisl differences, and come together for the common good.
If what you say is true, I guess the speech wasn’t that great after all, huh?
JWeidner
Fail.
Nice try. Come back with your supporting evidence and lack of trollish attitude and people might (and I do mean might) take you a little more seriously.
On second thought, no, don’t bother. You fail, end of story.
James B.
I may do that. Thanks.
p.lukasiak
Sorry MYIQ, but those are the rules on planet earth. On planet MUPpet, they are completely different.
Bubblegum Tate
Oh really? What’s your source oh Mr. Oracle of political scandals?
Oh! Oh! Let me make up one.
Hmmm…let’s see…OK, got it. Ready?
There was this one time at an Obama rally where some dude in the crowd was playing Public Enemy kinda loud. Public Enemy has praised Farrakhan in their music. Do you know what all of this means? BARACK SADDAM HUSSEIN HAMAS AL QAEDA TERRORIST OBAMA IS A HIGH-RANKING MEMBER OF THE NATION OF ISLAM!
The Other Steve
There is no such thing as automatic delegates. Where do you people come up with this shit?
Rarely Posts
My two cents—the super delegates are entitled to vote for whomever they please. If they perceive one candidate as being able to win the general election, they are perfectly justified in voting for that person. If they can’t vote for whomever they please, then they are basically casting a worthless vote. What would the point of that be.
If Obama’s missteps in the last week continue or drive Indies away, it would be stupid of them to vote for Obama. If he overcomes these issues and it becomes clear that people aren’t going to cream us with negative ads during the general, then they can pick him.
I’m not sure why everyone is so keen on rushing a decision that I see as still up in the air. Well, I do see, but I don’t agree with it.
The Other Steve
Abandoning people who tell you to fuck off isn’t a racial issue.
p.lukasiak
no, I’m ignoring it for the same reason I ignored it when it showed Hillary with a growing advantage—because its completely meaningingless and pointless.
myiq2xu
It looks to me like the Obama supporters are running scared.
Why else are they so frantic, considering how confident they claim to be.
The Other Super Tuesday really shook them up.
Too bad, cuz real ponies don’t oink.
What a bunch of WATB’s.
Jeebus, sack up!
cleek
“automatic delegate” is the new Clinton-approved way of saying “super delegate”.
when all other hope is gone, try changing the language!
The Other Steve
Scared of what?
myiq2xu
A woman
Jake
Rezko has been “happening” on and off since early last year. I guess 3 AM red phone refers to a campaign commercial so that leaves us with wingnut pastor and geopolitical plate tectonics.
I normally think pluck is just very, very intense in his support of his candidate. I read his posts and hear Karl Rove declaring “I have THE math!” whatever, it’s kind of funny.
But based on this thread I hope someone keeps him away from sharp implements if HRC doesn’t get the nom.
ntr Fausto Carmona
Oh, he’ll hold up. Let me play Devil’s Advocate and explain how.
Foreign policy based on fantasy? See: Kristol, Bill; O’Hanlon, Michael; the family Kagan; and just about everyone that’s been claiming these past five years that we need just one more Friedman Unit to turn the corner in Iraq. Yet, somehow, this hardly ever gets noticed in the MSM.
Non-existant domestic policy? All McCain has to say is “tax cut” and voila – instant and credible GOP economic policy! Larry Kudlow will be proclaiming McCain’s economic genius from the mountaintops.
Nobody, not even battlin’ Hillary, is going to dick with McCain’s years at the Hanoi Hilton. He does wear the mark of the Keating Five, but for some reason nobody – not even Bush or his GOP competitors – have bothered to touch that.
The GOP Twelfth Commandment: “The Liberal is always worse. Always.”
McCain’s victory had less to do with Huckster’s kamikaze run and more to do with McCain having the best chance out of all of them of beating The Left™. The GOP may have idiotic policies, but the party itself isn’t idiotic. Hell, there’s probably a good number of them thinking McCain pulls a Sharon while in office and Ghouliani or Brownback get the big chair.
Svensker
I nominate James B! He keeps throwing pie, thus interfering with the signal to pie ratio, as explained above.
None of you people make any sense. Is this a blog for people on acid or something?
Oh, dang, you caught us. Now that the brown acid’s been outed, we’ll all have to switch to the pink pills, which is too bad, cuz the pink ones don’t taste as much like pie.
The Other Steve
I guess the steak knife set as a parting gift is out?
Larv
Divine? Don’t be ridiculous. Did you even read any of the linke articles in the OP? Hillary doesn’t have an “excellent” chance, she has almost no chance. And what chance she has involves burning a Sherman-like swath through the Dem electorate. At this point in the race, Hillary has essentially no chance of winning the pledged delegates outright, and very little chance of winning the popular vote. Will you admit that, or is that in dispute in Clinton-land? Given that this is so, her only chance is in convincing the supers that Obama’s unelectable enough that they’ll go against the popular vote and/or delegate count and give her the nomination. But given that doing so is absolutely sure to drive down AA and youth turnout in the election (regardless of what Obama does or doesn’t do), the electability argument is seriously undercut. How can she be the electable candidate if her nomination drives voters away? Again, do you deny that this would happen? For the record, exactly what do you see as Hillary’s route to the nomination? Are you counting on revotes in FL and MI, expectin to get their delegations seated at the convention, etc…? Counting on some sort of Obama meltdown?
ntr Fausto Carmona
You have a good point, but… its up to Hillary to prove that she can win in the GE too. To date, she hasn’t reached that threshold yet.
See above: Wright issue is dead issue, Obama’s rising again. And its not as if Hillary was doing that well with indies to begin with.
2000 and 2004 wonder when we haven’t been creamed with negative ads.
I’m not sure what you see, but a lot of us are seeing the looming threat of President McCain.
John Cole
Sexist.
Xenos
>>Try proteinwisdom.com. It’s more up your alley.
I may do that. Thanks.
That has to be the fastest wingnut troll flameout on record. If that is one of John’s students, it would rate a C- or worse.
Back on topic- is Richardson a tipping point? If not, what would make for a tipping point?
I am thinking Edwards here, but I expect he is a bit preoccupied right now.
zzyzx
You know what the scary part is? Even during the wake of the Wright scandal, Clinton still has worst negatives.
It’s not enough to say that the other guy can’t win; you have to show that you can.
BFR
Non-existant domestic policy? All McCain has to say is “tax cut” and voila – instant and credible GOP economic policy! Larry Kudlow will be proclaiming McCain’s economic genius from the mountaintops.
I think the counter to this is that 2008 is not 2000 (or 2004 for that matter). Back then, this was all pretty much theoretical at best – speaking from my own experience, I never would have voted for him but I thought that Cheney was a reasonable counter to Bush’s inexperience.
Based on the polling that’s out there (71% think the economy is in the crapper because of Iraq, 2/3 want out as soon as possible), I’m pretty sure I’m not the only one.
On the economy, again things in 2000 were less daunting than they are now – we were concerned about the effect that a budget surplus would have on interest rates for crying out loud. Appetites for active governance shift with changing economic winds, and I don’t think ‘tax cuts’ is going to be a major selling point in ‘08.
Long story short, when either Obama or Clinton start pointing out what McCain actually stands for, his numbers will start eroding. He’ll still be popular because of his bio, but I have a hard time seeing how he gets elected in this climate.
ntr Fausto Carmona
Good points. At least for me, though, the sooner we start on that, the better I’ll feel come November.
Pb
I see I’m late to the party…
Fuck off, p.luk, you’re fucking unhinged here. If you don’t have anything sane to say, then go over to Hillaryis44 instead, and whine there like the rest of the WATBs who don’t know shit about how a democracy actually works in practice, and—more importantly—don’t seem to care to see it work, either. Then you can all move to Arkansas, secede from the Union again, and have your fucking coronation, as planned. Enjoy the new Clinton confederacy, I’ll be sticking to the Union, thanks.
Rarely Posts
True. To date, neither of them has. McCain is going to be hard to best, simply because most casual observers think he’s not mini-Bush.
BFR
That’s only because no one is really trying that hard right now. I just don’t think it’s going to be very hard to paint him as Bush’s heir.
The Grand Panjandrum
Here is a fact:
Game fucking over.
Perry Como
Oh man. This will be great. In a new era of financial failures and scandals, someone is really going to back Senator John “Keating Five” McCain? I can see the talking heads right now:
TH1: You know, this wave of bank failures reminds me of the Savings & Loan scandal in the 80s.
TH2: Wasn’t John McCain involved with that?
TH1: He was one of the Keating Five.
Not only does it hang the financial albatross around St. McCain’s neck, it reminds voters about the last time we had a Republican president that liked deregulated markets. Free tax payer bailouts for everyone!
Studly Pantload
Some guy with a blog sed:
I think this thread is the death throes. Or pie throws.
teak111
But honestly, will American elect a black man? My wife doesn’t think so. I personally hope so, because McCain is a chilling combination of Reagan and Bush, with nasty Cheney elements too.
James B.
Fuck you. What the fuck are you talking about? I just went to read a blog over.
And you assholes call BUSH a Fascist. Look in the fucking mirror sometime.
Pb
The polling has been showing that all three candidates have a decent shot at winning in the general election. The numbers are pretty tight at the moment, but of the three candidates, Hillary is still in last place. FYI.
Laertes
I think it’s likely that Hillary would prefer for Obama to lose in November should he win the nomination. I’m aware that that’s an extreme position, but I don’t think she’ll see it as putting self above party or country. She’ll just naturally have a world-view in which it’s best for everyone that Obama lose.
First off, she obviously doesn’t like Obama very much. They were never close—she probably saw him as a rival from the moment he emerged on the national scene at the ‘04 convention. Further, she expected to win the nomination easily, and feels that she’s earned it. She’ll be angry and frustrated that this inexperienced upstart stole the nomination that was rightly hers.
This is important because disliking Obama a great deal helps her believe that he’d be a bad president. It’s easy to think that people you dislike are less capable than they are.
If she thinks he’ll be a poor President, she’ll naturally reason that it’s better if he loses. If he wins, he’ll govern poorly and the Republicans win in 2012. But if he loses, the Democrats have a good shot in 2012. Better four years of McCain followed by a Democrat than four years of a failed Democrat followed by a Republican. It’s better for the party if Obama loses.
And it’s better for the country. Better a good Republican than a bad Democrat.
And, of course, it’s better for Clinton herself, though of course that pales in comparison to the other factors. If Obama wins in November, she’ll never be president. Her next shot will be 2016. She’ll be 69 years old, and the old Clinton influence within the party will be broken, as even an unsuccessful president Obama will have dominated the party for four years.
If Obama loses to McCain, however, Clinton is certain to become President in 2012. Her campaign for the nomination will be built on a powerful theme: The party failed to nominate her, and lost. She’ll have that delicious victim status, having been robbed of her nomination, and she’ll present herself as the savior, offering the party a chance to redeem itself for its short-sightedness. She’ll win the nomination easily, and how tough can McCain be after another four years of bumbling in Iraq?
I think she’ll have a very easy time convincing herself that President Clinton in 2012 is better for everyone than President Obama in 2008.
Bonus prediction: If there are any replies to this post at all, at least one of them will involve quoting some part of what I put forward as Clinton’s thinking and responding to it as if it were mine.
Billy K
This thread is a perfect example of why I quit reading the comments on this blog, which used to be my favorite place to read comments. The Obama/Hillary battle may or may not be tearing apart the Democratic party, but I can tell you one thing for sure – it’s fucking up this blog.
JWeidner
Are you serious? Fascist? That’s the best you can do?
“I do not think it means what you think it means.”
tBone
A couple of weeks ago I made a joke about pluk screaming I DRINK YOUR MILKSHAKE! I DRINK IT UP!
I didn’t anticipate that he was going to actually have a psychotic break.
OniHanzo
God bless James B and his fascination with a self-inflicted coronary. Myiq and p.luk are worth the ticket price alone. But this… this is a new beautiful ring in the troll circus.
Is your blood pressure so high, James, because deep down you know about the trip to the woodshed Old Man McCain is going to get?
There, there. You’ll be okay. You just need to get used to the mandatory abortions, bongos and tie-dyes like all good Americans will have to do. Just lay back and think of Che.
snicker
AkaDad
It’s the math, stoopid.
Dennis - SGMM
James B., someone calling himself Jack Bauer left a message for you. He says that tonight you must fellate him noisily and continuously while he pulls out your mom’s teeth with a rusty pair of pliers or we’ll all have to wear burqas. He did promise to wipe off his dick and the pliers on her dress so that you’d have a patriotic souvenir to wear to your next Republican party get-together..
Dug Jay
Well, it looks as if the Obama/Wright story has a few more chapters left. Here’s the introductory paragraphs to today’s story in the McClatchy chain’s:
Those are some of the more provocative doctrines that animate the theology at the core of Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago, Barack Obama’s church.
tBone
And you assholes call BUSH a Fascist. Look in the fucking mirror sometime.
Admit it, Jimmy – you just came here because you found out you can use the word “fuck” as much as you want without being banned. I don’t blame you – that’s a mighty attractive prospect when you’re 12.
OniHanzo
It’ll fade.
LiberalTarian
And you assholes call BUSH a Fascist. Look in the fucking mirror sometime.
Are you in diapers? I mean, not as a fetish, but really in diapers? “Doughy pantload” is a putdown, not an aspiration.
Jake
No, everyone gets that you’re putting forth what you think HRC is thinking. So if they aren’t your thoughts and they also aren’t HRC’s thoughts it must be those damn underpants gnomes again.
James B.
If the best you fucks can come up with is some 20-year-old weak crap that McCain’s already atoned for a thousand times over, this election’s as good as ours.
Shut your pie-hole, jackass.
Rarely Posts
Uh, it’s actually ALL your thinking.
You forgot to include the part where Hillary is jealous because Obama’s prettier and he might want to blow Bill.
Jeebus.
BFR
Again, I just really don’t see how McCain holds up. The 2008 GOP primary was just a really weird deal that allowed McCain to sneak through.
The party bigwigs (except for the neocons) wanted Romney – do you think this is because they thought McCain was too mavericky for their tastes? No – it’s because they believe he is an electoral train-wreck waiting to happen.
Why is that? Look at some of the polling in the primaries – namely that anti-war Republicans voted pretty solidly for McCain, I think garnering a higher percentage of their vote than Paul. There are probably a bunch of plausible reasons for this but I think high on the list is that McCain garnered a reputation for opposing Bush which somehow got translated into a belief that he opposed the war.
In the GOP primary, none of the other candidates were going to attack McCain on the basis of him being too warlike – the current GOP base loves the war right now.
So, name recognition + a mistaken belief + an unappealing slate of other options (mainly Romney) + a splinter candidacy by a populist fundy (Huckabee) let McCain win the nomination with well less than a majority of the votes.
This is bad for the GOP - McCain’s only shot is to go all-in on the war, a war which is opposed by 2/3 of the population. His own candidacy is going to sink his popularity among the independents who he leveraged to win the nomination.
In my opinion, Romney would have been a better bet for the GOP, since he could have built a storyline around something other than Iraq.
Again, long story short, I think McCain is a disaster for the GOP in 2008.
James B.
I’m not dignifying this with a response.
Goose-step your ass over to Nazi Germany if you don’t like free speech, asshole.
John S.
Yes, the milkshake twins! Thanks to greasemonkey, I see:
My milkshake brings all the boys to the yard, and their like
“It’s better than yours”, damn right it’s better than yours,
I can teach you, but I have to charge!
AkaDad
Billy K
Don’t give up, it’ll be all hearts and flowers when Hillary concedes.
Perry Como
Murk loar.
Ted
Folks, this is the most awesome BJ thread EVAR!
Dennis - SGMM
Amen. I have to say that no one got this worked up over John Kerry and Carol Moseley Braun in ‘04. I’m counting the days until we can start bitching in unison about whomever is elected.
Svensker
Game fucking over.
I just got an e-mail from Hillary Camp saying they were desperate for money because Obama had outraised her significantly and was already buying air time in PA and she can’t afford to.
Studly Pantload
Tut tut. What ever would the moderators at RedState say about such language? (That is, after they recovered from their vapors?)
Larv
Y’know, I’m pretty sure “James B” is spoofing. I’d expect people here to be more attuned to the signs. The crazy aggression, cursing, etc… Maybe he really is a 17-year old Young Republican on a MD Code Red bender, but I wouldn’t put money on it.
Dennis - SGMM
Your lack of dignity beat you to it.
The Grand Panjandrum
It’s 3 AM again:
Oh, snap!
Laertes
She’s 60, and a woman of great achievements. I don’t imagine she derives much of her sense of self-worth from being the most attractive person in a room. She probably resents him for being more eloquent than she is, though she probably uses the word “slick” instead of eloquent, when she’s mentally ticking him off.
And she’s probably got little to fear about Obama and Bill hooking up. They don’t much like each other, available evidence suggests that both are straight, and every indication is that Obama has been a faithful husband.
Ted
Adorable!! Myiq has begun using Hillary-Speak!
myiq2xu
I’m pretty sure that at his age “weak crap” is all he can manage, when he can manage at all.
Dennis - SGMM
I blame Tim F. and a slow news day.
James B.
When you don’t have anything substantive to say, accusing your opponent of spoofing is all you have left.
tBone
I like you, Jimmy. Sure, some people disapprove of broad spoof, but I say go for it. Chew that fucking scenery, you fucking fucker!
Perry Como
Total spoof, but it’s a boring day.
Laertes
When you don’t have anything substantive to say,
accusing your opponent ofspoofing is all you have left.Fixed that for ya.
Dennis - SGMM
Agreed! Laurence Olivier as Richard III has nothing on this one.
James B.
Then why don’t you go jerk off to some gay porn or something, and leave the grown-ups to discuss the substantive issues?
myiq2xu
Oh, no, we have lots of stuff left. We haven’t even started on your small penis, bad breath, and disgusting personal habits.
srv
One of the hardest tasks is to extract continually from one’s soul an almost inexhaustible ill will.
Perry Como
What sites would you recommend?
myiq2xu
How sad, you still have issues with your father.
Pooh
I know I’m not the first to say this, and I now it’s not “nice” or especially germane. But you are a fucking putz. You make no attempt to do anything but illicit THIS VERY REACTION. So congratulations, you may now run around talking about how an Obama supporter said something mean to you on an internet message board. Which…makes you a fucking putz.
James B.
And that’s just Hillary!
I’m sorry to hear that. My sympathy for your family, co-workers, and other acquaintances.
BFR
Might be time to fire up some moderation queues.
tBone
In Jimmy’s case, all three of these things are closely related.
James B.
Whichever ones you’ve got bookmarked, shitheel.
Hypatia
Nomination fights used to go to the covention routinely. That’s when they were conventions and not just advertisements for the parties subsidized by the public. I also think it’s nice for once that voters in these states with late primaries and caucuses see their opinions counting for once, and the voters must think so, too, because in most states they’re turning out in droves.
That said, there’s no question that if Clinton weren’t Clinton she’d have been forced out by now, and Obama in her position would have been long gone. (Although if their positions were reversed, I would not be insisting that Obama bow out, even though I support Clinton. It’s still close and he would have every right to keep up the fight.) But that’s how it is.
Also, if Obama had won even just one big state, Clinton would be out by now. Just saying.
I don’t believe Clinton will try again if she loses this round. The party has been unforgiving of front running losers in recent history. That’s why she’s hanging on now. She knows this is it.
myiq2xu
I love to be illicit. Was that the response you wanted to elicit?
p.lukasiak
At this point in the race, Hillary has essentially no chance of winning the pledged delegates outright, and very little chance of winning the popular vote.
and of course, who wins the nomination is based on neither factor—but whoever reaches the 50%+1 of avaiable delegates, including pledged and superdelegates.
As for this “scorched earth” bullshit. Fuck You.
I live in Pennsylvania. DON’T EVER FUCKING TELL ME THAT I SHOULD HAVE NO SAY IN WHO THE DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE SHOULD BE —ESPECIALLY WHEN A BUNCH OF IDIOTS FROM STATES IN THE WEST AND SOUTH THAT WILL NEVER VOTE DEMOCRATIC HAVE HAD THEIR SAY.
So let me repeat—FUCK YOU, and your overbearing, arrogant attitude. Its ain’t over til its over—- AND DON”T TELL ME THAT I CAN’T HAVE A SAY YOU PIECE OF SHIT.
James B.
Whatever it takes to get you people off the personal attacks and back on the issues you’ve been dodging so skillfully.
srv
Strong and bitter words indicate a weak cause.
Pb
The Grand Panjandrum,
Emphasis mine—is that the personal loan that her campaign claimed that it had already repaid? Huh, fancy that, the Clinton campaign lied about their finances. No wonder they’re still holding onto those tax returns…
stillnotking
Back to what the thread was ostensibly about: it is clear even to Hillary’s campaign that she has no reasonable shot at the nomination at this point. Whether you think that fact is good, bad, right or wrong makes no difference at this stage. It is a fact. The super delegates are not going to pick Hillary over Obama and never were, for the reasons stated by Politico and others, unless Obama has some sort of complete meltdown—something bad enough to precipitate his withdrawal from the race, in which case the supers wouldn’t matter anyway.
One poster asked what the purpose of the super delegates was. Basically, the idea was to prevent another McGovern, but the idea was a terrible one in the first place and there is no chance of it working “as intended”. The function of the super delegates RIGHT NOW is to prevent a divisive and damaging lengthening of the primary process by publicly endorsing Obama. They are waiting for an opportune moment to do this. March 4 was supposed to be that moment, but Hillary’s surprisingly good showing that day messed up the plan. This was unfortunate for all concerned, even Hillary, whether she knows it or not.
The only question at this point is when the supers will decide to get off their asses and end the race. Let’s hope it is very soon.
Laertes
I’m reminded of a great article by Teresa Nielsen Hayden:
1. There can be no ongoing discourse without some degree of moderation, if only to kill off the hardcore trolls. It takes rather more moderation than that to create a complex, nuanced, civil discourse. If you want that to happen, you have to give of yourself. Providing the space but not tending the conversation is like expecting that your front yard will automatically turn itself into a garden.
2. Once you have a well-established online conversation space, with enough regulars to explain the local mores to newcomers, they’ll do a lot of the policing themselves.
3. You own the space. You host the conversation. You don’t own the community. Respect their needs. For instance, if you’re going away for a while, don’t shut down your comment area. Give them an open thread to play with, so they’ll still be there when you get back.
4. Message persistence rewards people who write good comments.
5. Over-specific rules are an invitation to people who get off on gaming the system.
6. Civil speech and impassioned speech are not opposed and mutually exclusive sets. Being interesting trumps any amount of conventional politeness.
7. Things to cherish: Your regulars. A sense of community. Real expertise. Genuine engagement with the subject under discussion. Outstanding performances. Helping others. Cooperation in maintenance of a good conversation. Taking the time to teach newbies the ropes.
All these things should be rewarded with your attention and praise. And if you get a particularly good comment, consider adding it to the original post.
8. Grant more lenience to participants who are only part-time jerks, as long as they’re valuable the rest of the time.
9. If you judge that a post is offensive, upsetting, or just plain unpleasant, it’s important to get rid of it, or at least make it hard to read. Do it as quickly as possible. There’s no more useless advice than to tell people to just ignore such things. We can’t. We automatically read what falls under our eyes.
10. Another important rule: You can let one jeering, unpleasant jerk hang around for a while, but the minute you get two or more of them egging each other on, they both have to go, and all their recent messages with them. There are others like them prowling the net, looking for just that kind of situation. More of them will turn up, and they’ll encourage each other to behave more and more outrageously. Kill them quickly and have no regrets.
11. You can’t automate intelligence. In theory, systems like Slashdot’s ought to work better than they do. Maintaining a conversation is a task for human beings.
12. Disemvowelling works. Consider it.
13. If someone you’ve disemvowelled comes back and behaves, forgive and forget their earlier gaffes. You’re acting in the service of civility, not abstract justice.
This is a good community here, but lately it’s attracting or creating some hard-core trolls. The signal-to-noise ratio is dropping fast. People like myiq when he’s wearing his troll costume or James B no matter how he’s dressed are sucking all the oxygen out of the room.
Won’t be long before people who put forward genuine arguments and value genuine engagement give up on trying to do it here.
I remember when Kevin Drum’s place suffered a similar crash. Haven’t been back in years. It’s real tough to recover once a community descends into madness.
Jake
Oh Darrell we hardly knew ye…
cleek
it’s the ol’ Pity The Poor Troll routine.
Ted
Oh man. Folks, if this one sticks around for some time, we may have our new Darrell! Don’t ‘pie’ him either; the spluttering rage is awesome on an anthropological level.
Ninerdave
Dude, you’re not a serious person.
Simple number-crunching has shown the long odds against Clinton for some time.
But if the crackpipe helps dull the pain by all means.
ntr Fausto Carmona
Meltdown in progress! Cleanup, aisle p.luk!
James B.
So let me repeat—FUCK YOU, and your overbearing, arrogant attitude. Its ain’t over til its over—- AND DON”T TELL ME THAT I CAN’T HAVE A SAY YOU PIECE OF SHIT.
I agree. Philly’s corrupt pols are just as Democrat as the corrupt pols in Illinois, New Jersey, and California.
I want Hillary in this fight as long as possible. She’ll lose against McCain, but at least she’ll lose honestly. As a mobbed-up Democrat machine pol, not as a bullshit-con artist spewing platitudes about “hope”, “change,” and other horseshit.
myiq2xu
So what kind of Republican are you?
1. Men’s room widestancer
2. Diaper-wearing Vitter the Shitter
3. Meth and gay hookers
4. Wetsuits and dildos
I’m guessing you’re a #2
Kirk Spencer
Fuck you. What the fuck are you talking about? I just went to read a blog over.
Uh, no. The very first post you make on this blog goes:
And your second was:
Hillary’s almost as bad, but at least if you fucks nominate her you’ll be able to pretend it was HER fault your Party lost, not your Party’s fault.
Which means you came to trash talk and insult, not reason. And then, when you get trash thrown back you cry that all you wanted to do was read a blog.
Folk here tend to treat as treated – though tempers get a little hot on some subjects. Don’t want to take the crap? Stop serving it.
Ninerdave
What needs to happen is the super delegates need to get off their ass, stop being pussies who can’t make a decision and put this thing out of it misery. Dragging this on is not helping the party or our chances in the General.
Where are Gore and Edwards?
James B.
Won’t be long before people who put forward genuine arguments and value genuine engagement give up on trying to do it here.
I remember when Kevin Drum’s place suffered a similar crash. Haven’t been back in years. It’s real tough to recover once a community descends into madness.
Left-wing Fascist Stalinist piece of shit.
Pb
You’re right, James B.—anyone who thinks that you could change or have hope would have to be peddling some sort of bullshit or another. You’re obviously hopeless and inflexible. Congratulations.
Dennis - SGMM
Well, I just saw Bill Clinton on the teevee praising John McCain. First Hillary, now Bill. Would someone please contact the Clintons and remind them which fucking party they belong to?
ntr Fausto Carmona
OK, fess up. Which one of you is spoofing wee Jimmy in order to remind us of who the real enemy is? That you Thyme? Tim? John?
myiq2xu
Not dodging – “ignoring”
Ninerdave
Oh and ignore the third rate “I’m trying to be a GOP troll” troll.
Pb
They’re nowhere. MIA. Gonezo. Dodd and now Richardson have beaten them to the punch.
tBone
So let me repeat—FUCK YOU, and your overbearing, arrogant attitude. Its ain’t over til its over—- AND DON”T TELL ME THAT I CAN’T HAVE A SAY YOU PIECE OF SHIT.
So hostile, pluk. I’m one of those idiots in the west, and you’ve been telling me all along that my voice shouldn’t count. I certainly consider that overbearing and arrogant, but I never resorted to all-caps cursing.
Can I suggest decaf?
Ted
There, there. You’ll get your ‘say’ there in PA. But if Obama wins the nom anyway, please report to your local hospital that is equipped with a locked psych unit that is rated for suicide-watch. You might as well leave your shoe laces at home. They’ll take them from you anyway.
LiberalTarian
You would know neither grown-up nor substantive if it sat on top of you.
But, please, continue to regale us with your pithy malapropisms.
Besides, I think you might be making MyIQ jealous, and he might get off some good zingers.
libarbarian
I think she still has one last shot of winning – provided she changes her campaign slogan to “My milkshake brings all the boys to the yard!”.
Pb
Maybe Joe Lieberman called them first?
James B.
Actually, I started posting on the other thread. My perfectly-reasonable comments were met with ad hominem insults and slurs. I respond in kind to attacks and insults, something you Democrats should get a spine and learn to do on both the national level and on the level of international relations.
Ted
McCain should make his campaign bumper stickers using this stuff.
Dennis - SGMM
When pluk can’t massage the numbers, he fondles the Caps Lock.
myiq2xu
The only thing she’ll lose is her lunch, when he craps in his Depends during a debate.
p.lukasiak
real serious people don’t get their political analysis from Pool Boy Vanderhei at the politico.
seriously, way before this controversy began, no respectable progressive blog wanted anything to do with Politico.com. It was considered Drudge for people with 2/3 of a brain, instead of just half.
Now that its become part of Obamarama, the MUPpets think its a font of wisdom.
Which is how I know the MUPpets aren’t serious people—just “serious” like David Brooks, David Broder, Howard Fineman, Joe Klein, and the rest of the scum that are responsible for what passes as “conventional wisdom”
Laertes
I give you Lukasiak’s law: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of an outburst involving all-caps cursing approaches one.
myiq2xu
Quit plagiarizing me!
tBone
Apparently you weren’t here during the Darrell Era/pre-John Cole Reconstruction. This stuff is Emily Post compared to the old days.
myiq2xu
Fuck! TZ, you sumbitch! You had me going.
crw
Let the voters in the remaining handful of states have their say. Even now, I don’t buy the argument that this primary is so divisive it will tank the Democrats chance. So far, the pattern has been every state that gets to vote produces record turn out and other forms of participation.
I think this argument presupposes Obama will be the nominee, and that further infighting damages Obama, therefor lets wrap things up pdq plzkthx. I don’t really see people arguing this process has further damaged Clinton, after all. There really isn’t any other logical reason to cut things short now.
But…the counter argument is pretty easy. As the Wright flap has shown, there are avenues of attack we can’t fully predict. It’s not that Obama is not vetted and Clinton is, per se. But it’s difficult to predict what specifics the wingnuts will use and more importantly how much traction specific attacks will have with the public. Better to still have a plan B for a few more months than to cut now.
And p.luk is right. Obama needs to show he can hold on to the white vote, and particularly white independents that have contributed to his earlier victories. If these attacks send them scurrying back to McCain, it eliminates a large part of his raison d’etre (that he can forge a new Democratic coalition and get us past 50+1% politics) and leaves him as an inferior version of Hillary.
Ted
Silly Dennis! They belong to the Clinton Party!
Jake
Lessee. I’ve got James and the Giant Prick, Jimmy and the Analnauts, 2 Jims, 1 Pie and … Vanilla Heterosex?! Ew, how’d that get in there?
myiq2xu
C’mon Paul, you know the rules. If you lose your temper the troll wins.
Perry Como
lol, wut? The pie filter has gone through revisions. I think there were trolls here before John started the site.
JWeidner
Dude. Seriously. You routinely have no say in most primaries. They are decided WELL before you ever get a chance to vote. I respect the fact that this primary is particularly drawn out, but most of them aren’t like this. Surely you realize that. Are you this furious in other years when all the candidates save one drop out due to previous states’ primary and caucus results?
There’s no difference this year, save the illusion that this could go down to the wire and that super delegates are going to somehow break for Hillary. The math doesn’t support that though. No matter how well she does, she isn’t catching Obama in any metric that matters (by any conventional means of measuring election results). She would need massively humongous wins in every state remaining and that’s just not going to happen.
And dude. No matter how pissed you’re getting at another commenter here, you really don’t need to claim that voters in the west and south are idiots. There’s plenty of us out here who vote Democratic all the time. Some of us even reside in states like California.
Fe E
From seeing the number of comments in this thread I thought for sure Darrell was INDAHOUSE, and now that I’ve read through it, I’m still not sure.
Good times.
Perry Como
PotD.
tBone
Says the “serious person” who’s been pimping DLC conventional wisdom for months and months.
Stick with the spittle-flecked rants. They have just as much substance as your usual posts, but much more entertainment value.
Larv
P.Luk,
Nice of you to ignore the rest of my post in favor of a spittle-flecked diatribe about…well, I’m not sure what exactly. Something about PA and fucking, but it was too incoherent to tell if there was a point. Oh, and using ALL CAPS isn’t doing much to convince anyone you haven’t gone entirely off the deep end. Just sayin’.
w vincentz
YIKEIEES
I read this thread and gosh, golly…
now, when I stop laughing, I have to change my undies caused I peed ‘em, and wash aout my ears with good ol’ ivory soap, cause the “F” word showed up so often.
OH MY!
Convincing debating skills Jimmy and P.luk!
I’ll just say that whomever you two are supporting will NOT get my vote. I refuse to support a candidate supported by the likes of you. Might be time for both to either sober up or put down the crack pipes.
Good luck!
The Grand Panjandrum
Heh. Maybe Lukasiak’s Law of Large Caps (LLLC) as an homage to the Law of Large Numbers. It is particularly appropriate due to Mr. Lukasiak’s love of data. This mathematician loves it. Bravo Laertes!
p.lukasiak
If you live in Idaho or Nebraska or some other place where the vultures outnumber the humans, it shouldn’t count…for much. I mean, if your state helps get Obama to 2025 in pledged delegates, great, game over, he won, I’ve got nothing to complain about.
But in terms of realpolitik, that the only thing your vote is good for….because it doesn’t matter who the Dem nominee is, s/he ain’t taking your state—unless there is a landslide which makes your state just as irrelevant.
Ted
Yeah, I’m kinda curious about that. P.Luk, when you’re doing all-caps screeds like that, do you hold shift the whole time, or do you use the caps-lock?
James B.
Ah, fuck. This whole discussion just proves the old maxim: “Don’t get in the way when your enemy’s committing suicide.” I shouldn’t even have butted in. Enjoy your circular firing squad, fuck-sticks. My guess is that Mrs. McCain’s already planning new drapes for the White House.
Ninerdave
As for this “scorched earth” bullshit. Fuck You.
I live in Pennsylvania. DON’T EVER FUCKING TELL ME THAT I SHOULD HAVE NO SAY IN WHO THE DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE SHOULD BE —ESPECIALLY WHEN A BUNCH OF IDIOTS FROM STATES IN THE WEST AND SOUTH THAT WILL NEVER VOTE DEMOCRATIC HAVE HAD THEIR SAY.
So let me repeat—FUCK YOU, and your overbearing, arrogant attitude. Its ain’t over til its over—- AND DON”T TELL ME THAT I CAN’T HAVE A SAY YOU PIECE OF SHIT.
I believe you’ve made it obvious that you are going to vote for Hillary. The problem you seem to be having is it’s over.
OniHanzo
Have fun storming the castle.
srv
Well, you have to be over the top to conflate disallowing unwarranted snooping with the loss of civilization. But he hasn’t even gotten to the ticking time bomb meme yet.
The Colombian farc-ninjas part was a little fresh though.
Perry Como
How about Big F Notation? A Hillary supporter can be described as F(n!)
myiq2xu
Holy Crap!
My Stepmother is an Alien is on Comedy Channel.
It’s supposed to be a kids movie but there is one scene for the dads who brought their kids to the theater.
Dan Ackroyd gettin’ his freak on with Kim Basinger
Yeeowza!
p.lukasiak
I give you Lukasiak’s law: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of an outburst involving all-caps cursing approaches one.
hey, TZ accused me of not being scary enough because I didn’t use enough curse words and nasty insults. And I can’t resist a challenge from TZ.
(but seriously, how long has it been since I’ve done an all caps rant? doesn’t happen very often—and considering all the crap I have to put up with, the occasional all caps rant is the least I should be allowed.)
Ninerdave
Way to gloss over the fact that the quotes I pulled were from Hillary’s campaign.
ThymeZone
No, MikeU, I don’t do spoof. James B is an unknown.
I’d say he’s a listmember and a spoof, just based on a few tells, but it’s still early in his (probably short) career here to say for sure.
In any case, he certainly sets a record for ineffective flameout. Wow. He’s like a fireworks show that accidentally goes off before the audience even gets there, and kills the guy who set it up.
Pb
Yeah, that’s a Hillary supporter speaking, alright. MY state counts, YOURS doesn’t! Fuck the fuck off, p.luk. Really. And don’t worry, if Hillary doesn’t get your state, it won’t count either. Go have some pie. But fuck off already. I don’t give a fuck if you go away mad. Just go away.
John S.
That’s a nice meme, hypatia. Too bad when I look at the delegate count, it seems as if Obama has won in Texas, Illinois and Georgia.
I guess those states aren’t ‘big’ enough.
Dennis - SGMM
My guess is that Mr. McCain is planning the new Mrs. McCain. Wouldn’t be the first time.
libarbarian
Sand in your vagina? I understand how that could make you cranky.
myiq2xu
Wisdom strikes!
Don’t go away mad, Jimmy, just go . . . well, you know.
p.lukasiak
if you had anything even vaguely original to say, rather than the same Obama talking points that far more regular commenters here post all the time, I might have bothered addressing you.
But you have nothing original to say, so fuck you, and you arrogant fucking attitude.
thank you ver much.
BFR
Just up on TPM:
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/184883.php
Ted
We may often dump on Myiq, but if Obama wins the nom, we may need to bribe him to continue to deploy this stuff against McCain. It’d be worth the money.
Adam
NO FUCK YOU
Ninerdave
The quality of the spoofs the list are higher.
ThymeZone
Have some pie.
Pb
My Stepmother is an Alien is on Comedy Channel.
What a great, great, horrible movie. Right up there with Howard the Duck and Earth Girls Are Easy.
Jake
Right, this is just fucked up. Twerps who go into ALL CAPS ITALICS meltdown forfeit their say in what is and is not serious.
Perry Como
Well, that depends. Do you seriously think Obama could carry New York or Cali in the general? Unpossible!
Adam
SHUT UP I HATE YOU AND YOUR ENTIRE PARTY IS A BUNCH OF FASCISTS
Adam
AT LEAST THAT’S AN ETHOS
ThymeZone
Yes, but they loves them some deception. They’d play bad at it to throw you off. These guys are good. Trust me.
p.lukasiak
shift key
demimondian
I always wondered whether there were HR issues entailed by asking about the “big O degree of a certain operation”.
Ted
Do animatronic droids even care about things like drapes?
myiq2xu
Kinda like premature ejaculation before you get your pants off?
Or in Jimmy’s case, before he gets his diaper on?
NR
But in terms of realpolitik, that the only thing your vote is good for….because it doesn’t matter who the Dem nominee is, s/he ain’t taking your state—unless there is a landslide which makes your state just as irrelevant.
Nebraska allocates its electoral votes by Congressional district. A Democrat running a good campaign would have a decent chance of taking the 2nd CD and an outside chance of taking the 1st CD. In fact, the Kerry campaign seriously considered making a run for those two electoral votes in 2004. So no, Hillary, Nebraska isn’t “irrelevant.”
Pb
John S.,
Don’t forget Alaska—Obama won the biggest state of all!
But Hillary won Rhode Island, so it counts instead. Pfft.
jenniebee
1) Hope that Obama has a dramatic flameout for some reason (Wright isn’t it) and that he drops out.
2) Hope to damage Obama so much that he loses to McCain in the Genera and then HIllary can run in ‘12 w/ a “see, I told you so.” campaign.
That just doesn’t make sense to me. I find myself arguing in support of her here just because nobody else seems to offer any [rational] support and I’m not crazy about single-voice pile-ons, but that theory just smells. The idea that she’d sabotage a fellow Dem in an election this important in the hopes of getting Democratic support in another election is preposterous on its face.
She’s got nothing to gain by staying in. She’s not making more friends or winning more converts, Dean and Pelosi wanted this settled a month ago and she’s kept that from happening, and she’s probably pissing off a lot of big donors who just want this wrapped up. Objectively, she’s staying in this race against her own self interests, and she’s smart enough to understand that.
There are only two reasons a person does that. One is because they are emotionally unable to admit defeat. The other is because they think their cause is important enough to sacrifice themselves for it.
tBone
DON’T FUCKING TELL MY FUCKING VOTE DOESN’T COU-
Oh, wait, I’m not the unhinged one here. I forgot.
Nice post, though, despite the lack of Caps Lock. I particularly liked the acrid scent of Penn/McAuliffe flopsweat, with the bitter undertang of Dean envy.
Dennis - SGMM
I put it up on the cinematic pantheon with “Mom and Dad Save the World.” Jon Lovitz was cheated of an Oscar on that one.
demimondian
Heh. Not true.
The listmembers…they are as pearls before us. When they troll, the fish jump out of the water into their nets. When they spoof, the very letters themselves are confused. None of us it worthy to mock their skill, much less to deride it.
But none of them can ever be trusted to tell the truth about anything. Ever. Trust me.
Ninerdave
of course that’s the Hillary spin from day one. P.luk is just adding caps to the equation.
ThymeZone
You, Mister Pieman, I am on the Obama mailing lists, and I have never seen an actual talking point. I see mostly appeals for cash, which I send more often than I can afford, and appeals for volunteer work, and some cheerleading when there’s a thing to cheer about.
That’s about it. Where do you see these talking points, because I am not in that loop?
Can you forward me the talking points links or memos?
Thank you, and have a great pie.
myiq2xu
I love when the one guy uses his tongue to get the ice cube off the bottom of the glass and Geena Davis says “I get him!”
The Grand Panjandrum
Cleek thanks for Greasemonkey! Thanks to Dennis—SGGM for reminding me that it existed. And a special thanks to DugJay and p.luk for reminding me how enjoyable pie can be when served up properly.
ThymeZone
I do, I do. By the way, would you like your wallet back?
JWeidner
I’m told they dream of electric sheep.
w vincentz
James B.
Thank you ever so much! I haven’t been called a “fuck-stick” for so many years. Ahh, yes, fond memories of all the clever names that Spiro T Agnew called me in my younger days when I was doing my best to end another mindless “war”.
So…do you REALLY suppot the old guy that doesn’t know the difference between the Shia and the Sunnis?
LMFAO!
Oregon guy
Hypatia:
I know you’ve heard this before… but are not Illinois, Virginia, Georgia, and Texas (Barack won the most delegates from there) big states? To say nothing of Washington, Minnesota, and Wisconsin?
“Big states” is a canard. So is “blue states” in the primary process. New York and California would vote for Snuffleupagus in the general if he had a (D) next to his name.
States like Oregon, Washington, Nevada, Virginia, and Wisconsin are going to be crucial in 2008. These are the purple states where Obama does well. Obama has many more pathways to electoral college victory than Hillary does. Hillary in the general will be using a strategy not unlike what John Kerry had in 2004 – reliant on the base states and a few close swing states like Ohio and Florida. Given the problems those states have in running elections, I would rather not depend on them again in 2008.
Obama can force the Republicans to compete and spend money in states which will be safe for them if Hillary is the nominee. This will take away from resources which they will not be able to throw at the swing states like Ohio.
The current strategy of “vetting” Obama (Clintonista term) really means “driving up Obama’s negatives” which aims to harm him in the general. Hillary already has the highest negatives of any candidate running as of last year, and of the current day as well. While its true that there exist hard cores of Republicans who would never vote for a Democrat, and of racists who would never vote for a black candidate for the Presidency, there are far more people who will never vote for Hillary because of all her negatives.
I’m not saying that’s right or fair, that’s just how it is. I originally sent money to Edwards, and after he dropped out I listened to some of Obama’s speeches and oratory and thought that he possessed the skills to destroy any Republican. So I started sending my money to Obama.
But then, I’m also an old Deaniac who believes in the 50-state strategy and all that. In many senses that is what this fight is also about. What kind of Democratic party we Democrats want to have. I’m tired of being tarred as weak coastal elites – and Obama’s version of Democracy (large D) gets us away from that and Hillary’s does not.
Besides, she’s out of money.
And the line about waiting for one candidate to win enough pledged delegates to win outright is a bit ludicrous given that superdelegates consist of almost 20% of the total delegates. In any real contest, supers are going to provide the margin of victory. That we even have supers strikes me as hugely undemocratic. But we do, and Obama should win with them. Hopefully they will be gone in 2012. I do believe in playing by the rules of the game as announced at the outset.
myiq2xu
“Morons From Outer Space”
Jake
He holds the Shift key down with a big piece of pie.
Pie. Delicious and useful.
John S.
As does Maine.
myiq2xu
Fixt
ThymeZone
As opposed to after you get your pants off?
Which is really a lot better, BTW.
It’s as good as pie.
demimondian
My wallet? Or the one you took from my back pocket?
Dennis - SGMM
Dennis doffs his meshback baseball hat to JWeidner. Phillip K. Dick is one of the most amazing writers to ever put pen to paper.
Adam
To be fair, I think that much of her success is predicated on being doggedly persistent, and that’s not necessarily a bad thing. But it means that the quality of your original strategy is absolutely critical, and Hillary’s hasn’t turned out to be that good (again, to be fair, also arguably not her fault). The advantage is that it’s hard to knock someone like that off their game.
Obama is in many ways the opposite—he responds much more quickly, which might be a liability were he not so ridiculously good at parrying attacks and pivoting.
His long-term strategy is obviously good, too. And Clinton’s short-term game is not non-existent. But it seems quite clear that they rely on different strengths. I am not sure that it’s fair to hold that against either of them.
John S.
That’s Mister Snuffleupagus.
If he were on the ballot, would Big Bird be the only one that could see his name on it?
Brachiator
Based on the polling that’s out there (71% think the economy is in the crapper because of Iraq, 2/3 want out as soon as possible), I’m pretty sure I’m not the only one.
On top of this, we have Darth Cheney’s supercilious dismissal of public sentiment, according to his recent ABC interview:
McCain is headed for a Herbert Hoover smack-down, no matter who the Democratic Party candidate might be, if he tries to pull any “stay the course” nonsense with respect to either Iraq or the economy.
The easy and obvious retort to the GOP claim that they are going to cut taxes is to say “There is no point in talking about a tax cut if your wages have already been cut to zero.”
myiq2xu
To quote Dave Attell:
“Suffer from premature ejaculation? Do I look like I’m suffering?”
tBone
As does Maine.
Bu-bu-but caucuses! Undemocratic! Urge to use shift key RISING!
Ted
Aw, damn. We lost James.
p.lukasiak
Why perfectly rational people lose it with MUPpets
1) If someone breaks the rules, they must be punished—except when they don’t have to punished like in IA, NH, NV, and SC
2) Superdelegates should not be allowed to decide the nomination—unles they vote for Obama
3) Superdelegates should vote like the people they represent, except if they support Obama, and their constituents support Clinton
4) The rule that says that you need 2025 pledged delegates to win the nomination only applies to Hillary Clinton
5) WHoever is ahead in the popular vote at the time that Obama is ahead in the popular vote should be declared the nominee.
6) Whoever wins the most delegates, regardless of how small their margin is, how many voters each delegate represents, or whether they come from states that the Democrats will never carry, wins.
7) Winning a net 12 delegates in Idaho is more important than winning a net 11 delegates in New Jersey.
8) If Barack Obama says that he wouldn’t be in the position he’s in if he wasn’t black, its not a problem. If Geraldine Ferrarro says that he wouldn’t be in the poisition he is in if he wasn’t black, its a crisis.
9) Its perfectly okay for the Obama campaign and its surrogates to deliberately twist the words of Clinton and her supporters to make it sound like she’s running a racist campaign. But its below the belt for Clinton to point out that Obama doesn’t have much in the way of experience on the issues of national security and foreign relations.
Adam
I VOTED FOR NADER! I HATE EVERYBODY!
I LOVE ANGELINA JOLIE! DOES ANYONE ONE ELSE LOVE ANGELINA JOLIE? SHE HAS ENORMOUS LIPS!
ThymeZone
Just saw his HBO special recently. OMFG. The humanity!
But he was food-spittin’ funny.
I remember this line:
“This blind guy climbed Mount Everest. Or, so he was told.”
Oh yeah, that’s good pie.
Pb
jenniebee,
Well, she is sabotaging a fellow Dem in an election in favor of the Republican in the race; we can agree on that, right? The other half is just a logical supposition, assuming that she has some sort of sane reason for doing a seemingly crazy thing.
Ok, so in that case, sane reasons are out the window; therefore, that would make sense as a possible alternative.
Well, sure, and she sunk $5 million of (presumably) her own money into the campaign. She’s certainly invested in it, in more ways than one. But let’s go into some more detail here, what does this really mean? Is she just convinced that she’d be a way better President? Does she think that she’s really the only candidate who can win this one for the Democrats?
Also, we’d be remiss to overlook the consultantocracy sucking the money out of the Clinton campaign. They only get paid for as long as she’s in the race; they have a definite financial interest in her sticking it out. And I think Mark Penn at the least has a Plan B here—he’s already auditioning for John McCain’s campaign, or failing that, whatever other Republican political group that’ll be aligned with McCain in the general.
Dennis - SGMM
how dare you inject a note of sanity into this thread? You should be ashamed of yourself!
BFR
I’m confident we’ll start hearing about the ‘Pelosi recession’ in short order. I just don’t think it’ll work very well. It would play ok with a technocrat like Romney but McCain is such a dingbat, no one is going to seriously think the GOP is offering a realistic alternate strategy.
Ted
We understand that you’ve lost it. Now take your Ativan and Haldol, go sit in the TV/game room where you can smoke, and a technician will be by to take your vitals in just a bit. Your visit with the doctor will be this afternoon.
Pb
myiq2xu,
“I want to have his baby!”
p.luk,
Thanks for outlining some of lies you believe about Obama supporters, the smears you tell about them, and the names you call them. I’ll be sure to ignore all that when I see it in the future, you worthless bigoted piece of garbage. And did I mention… go away?
Ted
She got those lips from her father. Check out pictures of him. You’ll see it instantly.
ThymeZone
Yes, I like that. I like the fact that the GOP has set us up with so many fucking straight lines this year, we couldn’t lose if we ran Super Dave Osborn against them.
Tax cut? Look, fuckhead, I am paying $4 for a loaf of decent sandwich bread and $4 for a gallon of gas, and my job is hanging by a thread due to the sagging economy that you and your rich friends cooked up for us, and I can’t afford health insurance and my neighbor’s kid lost his leg in the war. So take your tax cut and shove it where the sun does not illuminate.
tBone
It’s so unfair that we don’t use the Bizarro World rules, where the loser is actually the winner, huh?
Adam
You know, technically, voters in smaller states are worth more than voters in larger states for Electoral College purposes. A voter in Wyoming is worth 2.6 times as much as a voter in Pennsylvania.
I think it’s shouldn’t be that way, of course… but it is true.
Dennis - SGMM
And you, pluk, set a standard of rationality to which the rest of us can merely aspire.
firebrand
Oh, I get it John. Lets ignore all the states like Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Oregon, North Carolina, and Indiana where Democrats might have a shot in November, and give Obama the nomination based on his wins in Idaho, Wyoming, Utah, Kansas, Alaska, Georgia, Mississippi, Alabama, Nebraska, and South Carolina which the Dems won’t win unless there is a landslide.
Ok, I just had to comment on this little bit of lunacy here. Granted, this whole bit is crazy, but the bit about Indiana?? Seriously p.luk: Indiana? Are you kidding me? Are you fucking KIDDING me??! Do you know anything about this state? ANYTHING AT ALL? Indiana, over the course of the entire 20th century, and all of the 21st so far, has voted for Democrats for president just 4 times. FOUR! The last time was in 1964, for LBJ. LBJ! That means that Indiana proceeded to vote for Nixon both times, then Ford, then Reagan both times, then Bush Sr. both times, then Dole, and then Bush Jr. both times! That would also mean that they voted against Bill Clinton during both of his terms. Do you realize what that means? It means you could run a stick in the mud as the Republican nominee in Indiana, and Hoosiers would vote for it over the Democrat any day of the week. It means that the State of Indiana could only possibly be considered a swing state in a DEMOCRATIC PRIMARY. Period. It’s as safe a red state as there is. It will vote for John McCain. Neither Obama nor your beloved Hillary will win Indiana. It’s a state where even Indiana Democrats like the state’s senior senator, Republican Dick Lugar. That you think the Democrats have a chance at Indiana in the fall because Hillary might do better than Obama in the upcoming primary, not to mention having a chance at West Virginia and North Carolina, which are also safe red states in the fall, speaks to your insanity better than anything else I could say.
Adam
I’m trying to balance it out by yelling out quotes from Red vs. Blue and The Big Lebowski. Just work with me here.
ThymeZone
It’s a pie state.
Stooleo
Heh..Heh.. this has been a great thread.
Hate to break it to y’all but Hillary’s campaign is dead, it just doesn’t know it yet.
ThymeZone
We made mincemeat of him, that’s for sure.
HyperIon
i skipped to the end here…after searching the thread first for krauthammer…no matches.
i’ve been reading the WaPo editorial online comments for a couple of years now. the drill: some righty idiot (like krauthammer or gerson or novak) pens a pile of BS and then the commenters pile on. it is ALWAYS uplifting to read the many excoriating remarks.
the current krauthammer column is about Obama’s speech (and suffice it to say that Chuckie was not amused). there are over 1500 comments posted. but MANY of them are along the lines of “right on, chuckie!” this is NOT the response i am used to seeing from the WaPo online commenters. this is something i have not seen before.
can anyone else speak to this? (that is, confirm, challenge, explain, dismiss, etc)
Jonah Goldberg
WHAT’S A FASCIST?
p.lukasiak
Illinois is Obama’s home state. In terms of relevance, it like Clinton’s win in NY and AK, and Obama’s win in HI.
Clinton won the popular vote in Texas—in other words, the electorate spoke, and then the most passionate part of the electorate altered the outcome. If passionate supporters won elections, we’d be discussing the re-election of Howard Dean right now.
Georgia is deep red. nuf said.
While I think that Virginia and Wisconin probably would have gone to Obama anyway, the huge margins in those states were the result of poor campaign planning by Penn and Co. and much smarter campaign planning by Axelrod. Also, VA is in all likelihood going red.
Washington and Minnesota are both caucus states—states where the will of the people is not expressed, just the will of the most passionate people and/or the will of the people with for the candidate with the best ground game. The results of the non-binding WA primary, the contrast being the GOP caucus and primary in Washington (in which delegates were at stake in both), and what we are seeing out of Texas all attest to how little meaning should be ascribed to the results of caucuses—regardless of who wins them.
ThymeZone
Hey … who is this Doug Jones guy?
libarbarian
I have yet to hear a Clinton supporter back up these denials by pointing to ANY substantive behavior on her part that is truly inconsistent with the theory that this is exactly what she wants.
She has consistently chosen lines of attack against Obama that are in complete harmony with traditional GOP attacks on Democrats and can (and probably will) easily by picked up and continued by the GOP in the general election. Examples: Association with an “angry black radical” minister, his “inexperience” in foreign policy (while she simultaneously boosted McCain’s qualifications in this area), his “weakness” in being willing to talk to dictators, etc. Meanwhile, the ONE TIME he attacked her from the right – regarding her health care plan and not personal stuff like her qualifications or her character – using arguments similar to those the GOP would use, she came out and called “Shame on You!” for his use of GOP talking-points. EVERY OTHER attack on her by him has come from the left – and is therefore almost useless to the GOP in the general election*.
No, instead I get blanket assertions, based on subjective criteria like personal hunches, that she just wouldn’t do something like that. “It smells” is about par for the course when it comes to reasons people say they just don’t believe she wants Obama to lose if she fails to secure the nomination.
I can’t read minds. I don’t know what is in Clintons heart and neither does anyone else. All I know are the her ACTIONS are almost exactly those that one would expect from someone motivated by sour grapes to try and sabotage his chances of winning as much as possible without being so blatant as to totally alienate the entire party.
*Her campaigns fliped out in outrage over “insinuations of racism” – but since there is NO WAY the GOP could expect to attack Hillary over racial attitudes and not come away with egg all over their faces, this was useless to them in the General Election.
ThymeZone
Clinton won the popular vote in Texas—in other words, the
Good God almighty, I thought you were going to name all fifty of them. Or is it 52?
Anyway, have some more pie!
w vincentz
P.luk,
“Must be punished”...
Is tonight “date night, ya know, with some domina-one, black leather, whip, spanking, SPANKING
OH! I’m SO bad…I used the “F” word…give IT to me
Is that Bill speak or Hill speak?
libarbarian
No, what your doing is coming in here and pissing on our fucking rug.
And it really tied the room together.
NR
In fairness, Lugar is one of the few Senate Republicans left who isn’t completely fucking insane.
Pb
And it’s AR, not AK, for those keeping score at home. Obama won AK. (Today was a good day)
p.lukasiak
I know that. But the results of the 2006 midterms—in which a number of house seats went from GOP to Dem, and a couple of others were quite close, suggests that Indiana should at least be considered a battleground state—not more red than purple, but not red enough to ignore.
Perry Como
I figured out in Big F Notation, Obama supporters are F(µ1φ)
Come on in pluk, the water is warm.
Perry Como
And of course, McCain supporters are F(π!)
Dennis - SGMM
Nunn-Lugar was a hugely intelligent piece of legislation. It’s too bad that Bushco and the Republican Congress chose not to fully fund the work of that bill. The world would be a safer place if they had.
libarbarian
You have no idea how happy I am to hear someone else say this.
Its like the “Whatever is good for GM is good for America” logic. Whatever is good for the Clintons is good for America – and if it looks otherwise they will rack their brains till they can reconcile the two and then proceed with righteous conviction.
myiq2xu
It’s after beer-thirty on a Friday.
Knock off all the calm substantive discussions and let’s discuss something fun!
Has anybody seen the GGW video with “Kristen” yet?
Adam
Disclaimer: Jonah Goldberg did not ask that question. That would be beneath him. As everyone knows, the answer is “Democrats.” I apologize for my duplicity. The more nuanced question, of course, would be “Which Democrat is more fascist?”
Pb
If Indiana is a battleground state, then Texas definitely is; go figure.
And now for something amusing that should also make p.luk’s head explode (again).
orogeny
There’s a valid point here. Should those states that NEVER go for a Democrat have a stronger voice in selecting the nominee that those states who ALWAYS go for the Dem? I live in Alabama…it doesn’t make a dime’s worth of difference who is the Democratic nominee for Dems in Alabama because the state is going to go for the Repub every time. It really doesn’t make a lot of sense for Alabama’s primary come before, say, Pennsylvania’s.
It seems to me that a sensible way to do the primaries would be to have the order determined by the states performance in previous federal elections..the stronger the state went for the Dems, the earlier its primary would be held.
wobbly
What is wrong with toughing it out through every primary, caucus, convention floor-fight, whatever???
What the hell is wrong with you children?
People are dying, in Iraq, Afghanistan, Rochester’s ghetto…
And you base your vote on what you do or do not want to hear on your TV for the next four years…?
Dennis - SGMM
I heard that it caused GGW to withdraw a million dollar offer to her. I imagine that it was the first withdrawal that she’d suffered in a long time.
John S.
Somebody call the wahhhhhmbulance for Paul.
P.S. Obama won more delegates in Texas.
kthxbai
ThymeZone
Or, the Wolf Blitzer version:
Coming up next, which democrat can best address the unanswered questions about liberal fascism and surrender in Iraq?
{ scary stressful music, up and out }
L. Ron Obama
That Cube reference came straight outta nowhere.
I see p.luk finally made it to Anger, but evidently is not quite ready for that stage yet and so has returned to Denial.
orogeny
I heard they’ve had to put it on hold because it turns out she was only 17 when it was filmed.
Adam
I hear Denial is beautiful this time of year. Great fishing.
NR
Well if we shouldn’t ignore Indiana, then we shouldn’t ignore South Carolina, Mississippi, or Georgia either, since Bush carried those states by a smaller margin than he carried Indiana.
But wait, you already said we shouldn’t care about those states. So which is it?
Cassidy
Screaming like a girl over Samantha Power calling HRC a monster is a crisis. sitting back and smirking while GF shows her racist ass is not a problem.
Wilfred
Oi loikes peace, me. Too funny.
p.lukasiak
I’ve always said that Texas needs to be a battleground state—and that for the Dems, what happened in Texas should only really matter if one candidate was blown out by the other. The Dems need to be able to run a credible campaign in Texas in the GE —and if a candidate was blown out in the primary, the odds of them running a credible campaign would be about zero. Texas is for the Dems like California is for the GOP —they have to many electoral votes to ignore, and if you ignore them it frees ups a ton of money and other resources to be used in other swing and battleground states.
IMHO, even though Obama lost Texas, he ran a credible campaign there, and in terms of deciding who the nominee should be, texas should be considered a draw.
firebrand
Sorry, but no. The 2006 midterms say nothing about who will win Indiana. In fact, they tell me that if Hillary becomes the nominee, all those house seats the Dems gained in 2006 will disappear. You have no idea how much Bill and Hillary are despised here (especially in Northwest Indiana). In fact, take the amount of Dems that vote for Hillary in the primary as the ceiling of Indiana voters that she could get in the general, because up against John McCain, she’ll come up short. This is a state in which Democrats can only get elected if they run as Republicans. Indiana is red, red, red all the way through.
myiq2xu
I guess she blew it then
myiq2xu
What position would “Kristen” be in if she wasn’t a hooker?
p.lukasiak
But unlike with IN (and for that matter VA) there is no sign that SC, GA, and MS are worth competing for. Those three are all states where you send presidential campaign surrogates to campaign for congressional candidates in swing districts—but you don’t spend money on ads, or waste the candidate’s time there.
Brachiator
Why perfectly rational people lose it with MUPpets
1) If someone breaks the rules, they must be punished—except when they don’t have to punished like in IA, NH, NV, and SC
2) Superdelegates should not be allowed to decide the nomination—unles they vote for Obama
3) Superdelegates should vote like the people they represent, except if they support Obama, and their constituents support Clinton
This MUPpet says that the Superdelegates can vote however they please. There is no problem here. Except it is really funny that Senator Clinton is crying crocodile tears over supposedly disenfranchised voters in Michigan and Florida, but would be happy as an Arkansas pig in slop if the Superdelegate vote negated all Obama voters in all the primaries and caucuses that he won.
An honest reading would note that the Democratic Party might be in a jam whatever it does, but to claim that one side or the other has a more legitimate—or a phonier—claim to their desired outcome is just blowing gas.
Actually, it applies to both, which is just re-stating the dilemma another way.
You can’t switch arguments in mid-stream, honking first about delegates and then later about votes totals. Unless, of course, you are Senator Clinton.
Please lend me your crystal ball so I can see who will win the NCAA tournament, since you apparently can predict the outcome of the general election. On the other hand, since she currently does not have the most delegates, by your own definition here Senator Clinton should not be the nominee.
Since the Democratic Party did not decide to weight delegate votes by importance, your comment here is not particularly meaningful.
Of course, Obama did not say this, so it’s not a problem. On the other hand, Ferraro did say what she said, so SHE had a problem.
None of the candidates are particularly strong on “experience.” But it is clear that Senator Clinton’s primary claim to the nomination is based on sheer nepotism, the thoroughly exploded myth that simply because she was the wife of the president she was fully (and unconstitutionally) co-president, or the romantic delusion that Bill will be just around the corner to hold her hand, give her advice, or take over should she slip up.
Senator Clinton could very plausibly say, for example, that in her short tenure in the senate she has demonstrated a greater grasp of economic and foreign policy issues than has McCain despite his much longer time in Congress (especially given his admission that he doesn’t know much about the economy), but when she starts making stuff up about presidential or commander-in-chief thresholds, she reveals not only a breathtaking cynicism, but a profound ignorance about the presidency.
crw
Nunn-Lugar was a hugely intelligent piece of legislation. It’s too bad that Bushco and the Republican Congress chose not to fully fund the work of that bill. The world would be a safer place if they had.
Lugar-Obama is right up there in the intelligence quotient, too. In case in all this bickering we’ve forgotten why we like Obama so much to begin wtih.
Dennis - SGMM
My mom was born in Winchester, Indiana and I still have distant relatives there. If Hillary is the nom the dead will rise up out of their graves to vote Republican.
And you know what follows when the dead rise out of their graves? That’s right; “Braaaaaaaaaains!” You want that on your conscience?
myiq2xu
In the Hoosier State? Those zombies will starve!
p.lukasiak
Brach…
I wasn’t trying to make a coherent argument out of the mish-mash that is MUPpet logic. Just trying to explain why sane people have such a hard time maintaining their composure around MUPpet logic.
Oh, and Obama did say it.
This is from his senate website...
If he were white, he once bluntly noted, he would simply be one of nine freshmen senators, almost certainly without a multimillion-dollar book deal and a shred of celebrity. Or would he have been elected at all?
w vincentz
“What position would “Kristen” be in if she wasn’t a hooker?”
Umm…missionary?
ThymeZone
Hey, it’s March Pie Madness!
Ninerdave
1)
[snip out a bunch of shit I didn’t read]
Shorter p.luk
IT’S NOT FAAAAAAAIIIRRRR. MARK PENN TOLD ME CLINTON WAS GOING TO BE THE NOMINEEEEE…IT’S NOT FAAAAIRRRR
Svensker
Earth Girls Are Easy.
I love when the one guy uses his tongue to get the ice cube off the bottom of the glass and Geena Davis says “I get him!”
Yes, but “I see split ends are universal” from Ms. Brown may be my favorite movie line ever.
Laertes
myiq, what’s up with your weird hostility toward that girl? You bring her up in unrelated threads, you tell unkind jokes, it’s a weird obsesssion.
She’s young and she made some bad decisions. Why do you get your rocks off making jokes about her?
It’s mean.
Dennis - SGMM
With respect, welcome to Balloon Juice.
ThymeZone
He’s in high school.
myiq2xu
Shhh! My probation requires I stay 500 feet away
myiq2xu
Because that’s all I can afford. Do you know what she charges?
Dennis - SGMM
Because it costs $4300 less than getting your rocks off in her?
myiq2xu
Yeah, most girls her age are making bad decisions about sex FOR FREE!
myiq2xu
Actually, that’s a good thing. Otherwise the human race would have died off a long, long time ago.
Larv
Lol. Yes, my attitude is the problem, and not your increasing derangement.
My apologies for my lack of originality and infrequency of posting, but we all have our flaws. Perhaps if you’d responded to these points when a more acceptable commenter had posed them, they wouldn’t need repeating. Do you or do you not think that Hillary winning the nomination by appealing to the SDs will affect her electability?
horatius
Yes. I wonder who won the last few races for Governor and Senator, and who’s gonna have two Dem Senators come 2008. Yeah, VA will probably go red in the GE, but Indiana is a swing state.
I am convinced.
Andrew
Can’t we just elect Sinbad as President? He’s got the same foreign policy qualifications as Hillary, and he’s less divisive.
myiq2xu
I want Jerry Springer. He can handle the GOP slime and sleaze better than anyone.
tBone
I believe you.
Brachiator
Brach…
I wasn’t trying to make a coherent argument out of the mish-mash that is MUPpet logic. Just trying to explain why sane people have such a hard time maintaining their composure around MUPpet logic.
Duly noted. On the other hand, your points demonstrate the total lack of substance of much of Senator Clinton’s supporters. Her faux experience claim is particularly galling. Funny how that works out.
Actually, it seems a bit humble and tongue-in-cheek. There are tons of books by people of all races and genders that don’t sell for beans, so there was something more than just his race that intrigued people. Similarly, he had to sell himself to the voters. And his quote has nothing at all to do with his claim to presidential legitimacy.
There is also something just pointlessly wearying about anyone trying to wring any special significance out of Obama’s race with respect to his presidential bid. Dubya set the bar so low with respect to the issue of “qualifications” that it has fallen on the ground and rolled downhill several yards.
Whatever gets you initial attention is just an incident in your biography, whether it is race, gender, prior background as an exceptionally brave POW, or the fact that you just happened to be married to a former president. It’s what you do with the moment in the spotlight that matters.
myiq2xu
WORM
What Obama Really Meant
mrmobi
Let’s step back and contemplate this big bowl of stupid, shall we? First, I agree with you it was unfair of the Texas Democratic Party to not tell Hillary that there was a caucus in addition to the Primary election.
Oh, wait.
Of course, I also agree with you that passionate supporters never help to win elections. That very thing is what caused Reagan, Bush I and Bush II to lose their elections, and for democrats to win.
Oh, wait.
You do have a point about the passionate supporters, though, because they tend to bring out people who have never participated in the process and that works against Democrats.
Damn, three for three.
It’s All Over but the Concession « Liberty Street
[...] Mark Halperin is saying the same thing (h/t John Cole). Here are Mark’s reasons 4, 5, and 6 (John has the first three): 4. Nancy Pelosi and other leading members of Congress don’t think she can win and want her to give up. Same with superdelegate-to-the-stars Donna Brazile.5. Obama’s skilled, close-knit staff can do things like silently kill re-votes in Florida and Michigan and not pay a political price.6. Many of her supporters — and even some of her staffers — would be relieved (and even delighted) if she quit the race; none of his supporters or staff feel that way. Some think she just might throw in the towel in June if it appears efforts to fight on would hurt Obama’s general election chances. [...]
Brachiator
WORM
What Obama Really Meant
No. It’s just common sense. Not every book by any person of color flies off the shelf.
Scrutinizer
You mean by following the same rules the Clinton campaign helped write in Texas in 1992 when Bill won the primary there?
Randolph Fritz
The thing that you are missing is that without revotes—or something—in Florida and Michigan the Democrats may lose those states and Obama’s campaign has participated in preventing those revotes.
I think it’s circular firing squad time. Bleh.
PaulB
Personally, I loved this one, stated as something that was supposedly illogical or beyond the pale:
Yes, Paul, that is exactly correct. Whoever wins the most delegates does, in fact, win. That’s the way things work out here in the real world.
My second favorite was all of the hand-waving Paul had to do to pretend that Obama hadn’t won any big states. The contortions he went through to pretend that none of the Obama victories “counted” was hilarious.
My third favorite was his assertion that Democratic voters in half of the states in our country shouldn’t count, or at least shouldn’t count as much as … wait for it … his vote. And his reason for this? Well, pretty much just because. Or, more accurately, because he didn’t like the way they voted.
The projection from Paul in this thread is freaking hilarious.
TenguPhule
Is it fucking September yet?
rachel
Man, this thread is like a 5-way between Darrell, Darrell, his other brother Darrell, not-Darrell, and maybe-sorta-Darrell. I agree with TenguPhule.
glocksman
We have a saying here in Indiana.
“Welcome to Indiana, where the ‘Hoosier Democrats’ act like Republicans, and real Democrats are suspects.”
That said, Hillary at least thinks we matter enough to stop in my city (Evansville) last Thursday.
Though I will say that her choice of venue (a high school gym, despite the availability of the local 10,000+ seat municipal stadium) was odd.
In my case it didn’t do her much good, as I both plan on voting for Obama and have written a pro-Obama piece for my union (UNITE HERE Local 399) newsletter.
For the longest time, I was an oddity in being a pro-Labor Republican.
No more. GWB and our Republican former Mayor have accomplished what I thought was impossible and turned this Republican into a Democrat.
Carol
With 10 states left, such a margin can only be gotten if Obama has something on him so bad that he withdraws. 60-40 wont do it, it’s now more like 70-30, which never happens without a race being practially devoid of opposition. The problem for Hillary is this: anything that could cripple Obama has come out already, and she’s in such a desperate state that it’s now clear that if she had anything really devastating on him she needs to unload it now. But unless its pictures of Obama with a girl or a goat, that’s not going to do it. He has more than enough money, organization, and simple charisma to go all the way to the end and with the proportional delegate math, still end up the winner.