Why stop at appropriating Soviet torture techniques when their great culture can teach us so much more:
The U.S. military has introduced “religious enlightenment” and other education programs for Iraqi detainees, some of whom are as young as 11, Marine Maj. Gen. Douglas M. Stone, the commander of U.S. detention facilities in Iraq, said yesterday.
Stone said such efforts, aimed mainly at Iraqis who have been held for more than a year, are intended to “bend them back to our will” and are part of waging war in what he called “the battlefield of the mind.” Most of the younger detainees are held in a facility that the military calls the “House of Wisdom.”
[…] Stone described a sort of religious insurgency that occurred at one detention facility on Sept. 2. “We had a compound of moderates for the first time overtake . . . extremists. It’s never happened before. Found them, identified them, threw them up against the fence and shaved their frickin’ beards off of them. . . . I mean, that is historic.”
Stone’s peppy stalinism disturbs me in every way. This is exactly what would have happened if the Stanford prison experiment was allowed to go on for six years.
Jake
Hey, it worked for Native Americans and I’m sure these students are treated very well…
Fuck it, I can’t spoof this, it makes me want to puke and is going to come back and bite us hard.
Back? That implies they were ever amenable to our will in the first fucking place. I bet mAnn Coulter is wanking herself into a coma right now.
SPIIDERWEB™
I’m with Jake. This is putrid.
demimondian
Hey, George? DicK? Look, guys, I want a favor from you…when you’re done with my country, would you give it back in working order?
Redleg
The more we get involved in telling Muslims how to think about their religion and how to worship, the more we confirm the belief that the U.S. is hostile to Islam and the more resistance we will face.
Iraqis of all religious stripes will see that not only did we invade their country for oil but we invaded to impose our own religious preferences on them. That should work out really swell.
Dreggas
Yes…because the inquisition turned out sooo well…
Redleg
adding to my previous post, it seems likely that our actions will do nothing to change the attitudes of radical Muslims but may succeed in further alienating those we would call “moderate” Muslims.
Tsulagi
Umm, so some of the worst of the worst are walking around with razors, and this Stone guys thinks that’s way cool? But last week at Gitmo they were all up in arms about a couple of the worsts in unauthorized panties? With one worst leader in a Speedo? Yep, 9/11 changed everything.
Ellison, Ellensburg, Ellers, and Lambchop
How dare we attempt to let moderate Muslim clerics interfere with Al Qaeda’s teachings!! Innocents should be killed!
And it’s pretty clear to me that the US took its cues in this program, not from Stalin, but from US academia…which took its cues from Stalin.
Pb
More like the crusades:
Pb
David Horowitz, is that you?
ThymeZone
I can only hope that after January 2009 I need no longer be embarrassed to be an American.
With that, we not only know for sure that chop is spoof, we even know who he is.
Blowing your cover is ten points off, dude. Try to be more careful.
rawshark
1/20/09
Zifnab
Hey, I hate to break this to you but the right-wing batshitcrazy machine is, in fact, extremely hostile to Islam and doesn’t give two shits about resistance that they think a nuclear weapon won’t break.
I know we in the reality-based community don’t think the US is on some holy crusade to reclaim the Middle East for Capitalist Jesus, but the reality-based community doesn’t occupy the White House – or large swaths of Congress and the Judiciary – and those that do occupy these branches of government DO think this is just one more front in the War For the Second Coming.
If Muslims start claiming America is launching a Christian War Against Mohammad’s People, who can blame them? They’re right.
tBone
Good point. We should be expanding these types of programs. How about a reeducation camp for radical Christianists like Eric Rudolph?
Tim F.
We would also need a system to reeducate radical militia types like Timothy McVeigh. They want to kill us!
Of course it is, dear. It is quite clear to me that you will buy into any conspiracy theory that supports your blinkered agenda.
pharniel
Dreggas Says:
[snarkspoof] hey, how many fucking jews and moores do you see running around lordering thier wealth over the hardworking people of madrid and toledo?[/snarkspoof]
this is still a stupid fucking plan however. you can see it being outsourced to the ‘camps’ i mentioned the other month.
Face
Seriously, WTF?
Bubblegum Tate
It got rid of those Jesus-murdering Muslims, didn’t it? That is called “the way forward,” moonbat.
The Mechanical Eye
This bears a sickening resemblance to the Soviet Union’s attitude toward the Afghani people in the 80s.
Let’s beat the religious superstition out of ’em! That’ll get ’em to believe our socio-economic system in no time!
DU
Pooh
Are you fucking serious? These guys don’t even get anything right by accident. The sun never actually shines on this dog’s ass, which is an accomplishment of some note…
tng
“House of Wisdom” … is that how Ministry of Truth is called nowadays ?
RSA
So the credit for the best system of post-secondary education in the world goes to. . .Stalin? Somebody didn’t get his money’s worth, I’m thinking. In any case, these military re-education camps strike me as being more similar to the rightwing stereotyped views of Pakistani madrassas than anything else.
Afghaniman
I actually found the interview, when read in its entirety, rather encouraging. He recognized that its jobs (or a lack thereof) that is a major fuel for the insurgency (and in some respects, the country’s civil war). Bringing in imams to counter the neo-takfiri rhetoric (cherry-picking quotes from the Quran to justify violence), sometimes by simply having the detainees read the sources for themselves, is also something I’m glad to see. The provision of basic education services, in conjunction with job training/placement, shows that the focus is more about rehabilitation than re-education. Unfortunately these on their own are likely to put much of a dent on anything (he even talks about the need for an Iraqi-based New Deal), but that’s beyond the realm of his responsibility.
If you consider where we were on this process in the past (more often than not, interrogating detainees strictly for information on operations), a movement in the direction outlined above is both beneficial and welcome.
AkaDad
I’m pretty sure this is the best way to win their hearts and minds…
Jake
I know, shades of Timothy Leary/The Amboy Dukes. The Nuge is probably working on a re-make.
Wilfred
Just so; it’s the fact that dare not speak its name.
r4d20
Bringing in imams to counter the neo-takfiri rhetoric (cherry-picking quotes from the Quran to justify violence), sometimes by simply having the detainees read the sources for themselves, is also something I’m glad to see
I agree.
If Muslim fundies are anything like christian fundies, actually reading the texts will, by itself, make some of the abandon their former beliefs.
If you consider where we were on this process in the past (more often than not, interrogating detainees strictly for information on operations), a movement in the direction outlined above is both beneficial and welcome.
It sure as hell beats the “beat em till they realize they are wrong” approach.
foofighter
>>tng: “House of Wisdom” … is that how Ministry of Truth is called nowadays ?
It is the Ministry of Love… hélas.
magisterludi
I felt like I was reading a Vonnegut novel.
whippoorwill
UNK
….No one ever expects the American Inquisition!
Thank the Flying Spaghetti Monster that they haven’t found me yet…
A Vonnegut novel it is. And so it goes…
scarshapedstar
Freedom, bitches!
Face
Just give them a Hot Carl and be done with it.
LITBMueller
Maj. Gen. Stone’s take on this whole thing is…pretty inarticulate…but, this is really not all that far flung from what we do in U.S. prisons everyday. There are high school and college-level courses taught to willing students, and priests, psychologists, who preach non-violence and compassion to convicts.
This sort of stuff:
…seems pretty positive to me. In fact, there are a lot of encouraging programs mentioned within the article, especially for the juvenile detainess.
Now, if the Iraqi prisoners were being forcibly indoctrinated against there will, or being forced to study Christianity, or, worst of all…being forced to watch Fox News all day, then I think it would be right to get our righteous indignation thang going, but this is actually a pretty positive development.
Certainly a hell of a lot better than smearing poop on naked detainees stacked in human pyramids.
Jake
A not unreasonable thought, if you find it plausible that fundies either have access to the entire text and never read anything but the Kill! parts or, some uber-fundy hoards the books and only reads out the Kill! parts.
whippoorwill
This is really hard to get the brain wrapped around. I just wonder if we brought back the draft and the concept of citizen soldier would this shit be happening. Sure it may not be quite the efficient killing machine it is now but I think the all volunteer military is getting a little weird with the “House of Wisdom” . I guess if the insurgents start singing “Yankee Doodle Dandy” it’s mission accomplished.
Dreggas
“Through hard work, Freedom”
Ellison, Ellensburg, Ellers, and Lambchop
Finally. I’ve found a thinking creature here!
Well, we don’t happen to have a few thousand of him locked up, saying they will try to kill us when they get out…but if we did, that would be a splendid idea. It might save a lot of lives.
Again, what rightminded person could possibly be against this (which is probably why Tim edited it from the clip — duh!)?
Someone explain why you’d be against providing the opportunity for moderate Muslims to try to talk these guys off their stated position of “Kill All Infidels!” I’d be fascinated to hear why someone who values life would object to such a program.
r4d20
A not unreasonable thought, if you find it plausible that fundies either have access to the entire text and never read anything but the Kill! parts or, some uber-fundy hoards the books and only reads out the Kill! parts
I have read studies, which dovetailed with my personal observations, that have shown that most American Xtian fundies have not read even a single book of the bible in its entirety.
In (the admittedly overquoted) “The Authoritarians” the author relates that his surveys have shown the two most cited reasons that ex-fundies gave for abandoning “fundamentalism” were (1) the sheer hypocrisy of their fellow fundies and (2) they actually read the bible and realized that the things they had been taught regarding the bible were not true. To paraphrase the author – fundies do not believe in the bible so much as they believe things about the bible. When some of them actually read it they find that it does not support their previous beliefs.
It wont work for everyone, or even a majority, but if reading the texts does force at least a sizeable minority to confront the sheer self-contradictions contained therein, and thereby shocks them out the notion that there is 1 obviously correct interpretation, it could be worthwhile.
Bubblegum Tate
Ah, screw all this–what we really need is some nice re-NEDucation. Hidie-ho!
Wilfred
As fate would have it, Lambchop, I’m just the guy you’re looking for, although I’m not going to answer based on the script you’ve just given.
‘Moderate’ Muslims have been turning a deaf ear to the Wahabi creed for the last 200 years or so. You can even find mention of them in Kipling, of all places. It’s clear that the message is not to ‘kill all infidels’, the typical Danile Pipes level of understanding, but rather to defend Islam, the only accepted form of legitimate jihad according to all but one of the four major schools of Islamic law. Of course, a moderate Muslim, and Iraq was highly secular, if traditional, under Saddam, has got to consider that form of jihad as a religious duty, which it most certainly is.
Now here’s a question for you. How would you go about convincing moderate Muslims that the Bush Administration is not waging war against Muslims and Islam, given the events of the last 4 years, the constant saber-rattling against Iran and the relegation of Palestinians to real-life video game targets for bored Israeli soldiers?
Someone commented upthread that it must appear to Muslims that the US is at war against Islam. You can’t imagine.
As an aside. I re-read this article and wound up tearing apart the introduction to my Ph.D dissertation, which is more than peripherally related to the subject at hand. Looking at the General’s picture and reading the following:
Materialism versus Idealism, Lambchop. What wins?
Charles Bird
So if the Saudis deprogram their prisoners, no problem, but if the Americans have Muslim clerics use a similar approach, then it’s “peppy Stalinism”? You’ve just ordered yourself a double shot of double standards, Tim.
Tom S
I must say that I found the article enlightening and interesting, and exactly the sort of thing that we should be doing. As with everything else positive that the Bush administration has stumbled upon, it is at least three years too late.
If one looks at Bin Laden’s interpretation of Islam as sort of a death cult, deprogramming those who succumbed to it through theological argument and persuasion is exactly the right way to go. I note that the article states that the shaving of extremists was done by inmates, not US guards.
The program described is an integrated effort to help those caught up in the nightmare of Islamic extremist thought, reject it on theological grounds, and rehabilitate themselves. While there are 1984 aspects to it, it beats the alternatives, and previous policies, hollow.
whippoorwill
Ya think. I’ve got a better idea. Why don’t we not invade their countries for no good reason and turn previously secular Arab Muslims into radical jihadis. Oh, but we can’t do that cause they got oil we need and deserve. The Al Quaida that attacked us on 9-11 we have to pursue as a matter of justice and self protection–you know that guy, what’s is name again, oh yea, I remember, Osama Bin Laden in Pakistan/Afghanistan.
You don’t sound like a wingnut, Tom S, but it sounds like you may be teetering that way. I hope you teeter the other way.
jake
In other words, observant, inquisitive people make poor drones. And the Earth revolves around the Sun.
If a person can own a book for years, read only parts of it and never ask “Gee, what’s on this other page?” he’s fucking hopeless and no amount of reading out the nice bits will help. Locking him up to explain the nice bits will only reinforce whatever the bad bits have told him.
But in reality the hypothetical fundy who hasn’t read the whole thing doesn’t want to know about the nice bits and will only brings them up when convenient. I know plenty of fundies who can talk about turning the other cheek when telling someone else to quit their bitching.
Riiight, but with a big question mark by the Saudis they might have, you remember we’re talking about detainees who aren’t in need of shocking (for lack of a better, less cringe-inducing word). Iraq was not Afghanistan under Taliban rule. The vast majority of detainees aren’t religious extremists, so reading nice bits from the Qu’ran while they’re locked up won’t make them more or less “bendable” to the US’s will. I would wager the longer they stay locked up the more likely they are to do something unpleasant when they get out, especially if they just happened to get caught up in a sweep. Where then is the worth in such a program?
Oh yes. Bush Admin. wants to pretend this is about religious extremism and not people who are a little pissed off about the invasion.
demimondian
No — it’s peppy Stalinism either way, Charles. I know it’s hard for the far right to grasp this, but Tim believes that if we fall to the level of the terrorists and their patrons, then the terrorists really have won, and will have destroyed what made this nation great.
Gosh, what a novelty — the liberties we treasure really are treasures, but, unlike treasures in a chest, they aren’t used up when we employ them.
TenguPhule
Shorter Tom S: I have no idea what the fuck I’m talking about.
These people seem bound and determined to make the USA the most hated country on Earth.
TenguPhule
It could be this:
Given how much this military likes to lie to the rest of the world, take their claims with a grain of salt.
Or it could be that any ‘moderate muslim’ working under Bush is now automatically tainted with the many many sins of Bush and his ‘crusaders’ in the eyes of many many Muslims that were not our enemies, are not our enemies but very well could be our enemies thanks to stupidity like this.
‘Re-education’ camps have a bad name for a reason.
Though if you are that willing to submit to a mandatory liberal re-education camp, EEEL…
TenguPhule
George Bush in a battle of wits with OBL.
We’re all fucking doomed.
r4d20
Oh yes. Bush Admin. wants to pretend this is about religious extremism and not people who are a little pissed off about the invasion.
Some ARE religious extremists and I kind of assumed it was targeted at them. If they are wasting resources trying to “deprogram” people who dont need it, then its obviously stupid.
There is no easy characterization of the “resistance” – there are many group with various degrees of nationalistic and religious motives including some religious authoritarian nutjobs – they exist in EVERY culture including Iraq under Saddam. The GOVERNMENT was secular – large portions of the people were not. Ignoring the fundies is as dumb and counter-productive as ignoring the nationalists.
Jake
At the risk of sounding like Clinton: How are you defining “not secular?” It is entirely possible to have religious beliefs without using those beliefs as justification for murder. There was no sign of that among the Iraqi population and there still isn’t. Into this environment barge a bunch foreigners. The citizens didn’t like that and like anyone with half a set of balls, they started fighting. Who knew? And then the invaders decided to lock people up and not tell them when they’ll get out.
Get it? Until some nervous nelly feels comfortable in letting these guys out, they’ll stay put. If he decides they’re hopless cases, they’ll stay put for good. This is a little how we treat the criminally insane in the US but that’s after they’ve had a trial. These people don’t even get that much. Meanwhile they’re expected to smile at the happy talk give three cheers for liberty and freedom. Sure, right. Maybe they’ll cough up that damn pony.
And creating a situation where people feel justified in shooting at anything that looks foreign is a display of stupidity that boggles the mind.
Charles Bird
I know it’s hard for the far right to grasp this, but Tim believes that if we fall to the level of the terrorists and their patrons, then the terrorists really have won, and will have destroyed what made this nation great.
Demimondian, one of the root causes of terrorism is a virulent and heretical and cult-like ideology. Extremist imams give these “fighters” religious CYA to indiscriminately murder civilians by blowing themselves up. The Saudis have a program that works because they use established clerics–with all the requisite religious authority–to show prisoners that al Qaeda perverts Islamic doctrine. Most of those imprisoned have little real knowledge of the Quran and the hadiths, which made it easy for ideological extremists to take advantage. You can’t call it reeducation because most were never educated in the first place.
The U.S. military’s program is similar to the Saudis, hiring Muslim clerics to give these detainees information about why it’s un-Islamic to undertake suicide missions. They’d be stupid for NOT trying it. I know the typical reaction here is knee-jerk anti-whatever-the-military-does, but teaching prisoners the non-distorted tenets of their faith in no way brings us closer to the Islamists who brainwashed them in the first place.
Brian
How well is the Saudi program really “working”? Saudis, including members of the royal “family” still fund extremist groups-secretly or not. Heck, when one arm (the only part not corrupted by Smiling Tony Blair) of the British government began investigating corruption associated with a recent arms sale, the Saudi GOVERNMENT basically told the Brits call of the investigation or we may stop cooperating with the Brits on anit-terrorism activites, in other words, they would start looking the other way when the “terrorists” start blowing things up in the UK. Sounds real “successful” to me. Like the “moderates” are in any way in charge in Saudi Arabia. Give me a break.
Besides, we would not be facing quite as many suicide attacks if WE DID NOT HAVE 250,000 INVADING TROOPS AND CONTRACTORS AND HANGERS ON IN THESE PEOPLE’S COUNTRY!!!!!
Wilfred
Bird is correct in saying that al-Qaeda perverts Islamic doctrine. Even so, they made a substantial legal justification to al Azar shortly after 9/11 that can be dismissed but not ignored. I happen to believe that pre-emptive war against Iraq (and shortly Iran) which has resulted in the deaths of far more civilians than 9/11 is perverts American tradition and morality but the right wing thinks otherwise.
I pose to the same question to Bird that I posed to the elusive Lambchop: What would you say to the average ‘moderate’ Muslim, bound as he is to the idea of jihad in the defense of Islam, who feels that Bush Administration policy is demonstrably and objectively anti-Muslim? Evidence please.
Lastly, you follow the ridiculous assumption that after years of hearing and rejecting the Wahabi message, the average Muslim somehow has never heard the real Koranic message. In this you overlook the point of legitimate jihad in the defense of Islam, which you can be rest assured all Muslims have heard and are listening to more and more because of the reckless behavior of this administration.
Phoenician in a time of Romans
George Bush in a battle of wits with OBL.
Oh, it’s worse than that. Have you ever considered that the foreign policy with regards Iran essentially comes down to a battle of wits between the Bush Administration and the proverbial Persian rug-merchants?
Tom S
Actually, TengPhule, I have an extremely good idea of what I am talking about, having been researching terrorism an counterterrorism strategies since the early 1980s. Attacking terrorist’s beliefs through authoritative argument–by forcing them to try and defend their beliefs–is an extremely effective way of weaning many from that path.
It can be done badly, as the British did in supressing the Mau Mau, it can be done extremely well, as the Italians did in breaking up the Red Brigades. It is not clear how the program as described in the Post is working, and will continue to work. There are also aspects of it, such as polygraph testing, that are inappropriate: either one trusts the sincerity of those who go through the program or not.
To those who criticize it, what is the alternative? Abu Ghraib? The former may change the thinking of potential and actual terrorists; the latter guarantees more terrorists.
As to “better not to have invaded in the first place,” I agree, but that toothpaste was squeezed out of the tube a long time ago. We now have to deal with the results.
The article suggests a humane and potentially effective strategy toward detainees, that takes place within the context of their religion and culture. I would have thought more of those who like myself are critical of just about every aspect of the US invasion and occupation of Iraq would recognize this as a good thing, particularly when compared to what has been done in the past.
mclaren
Yes, we not only defeated the Soviet Union, we became the Soviet Union. Torture, disappearances of subversives into invisible gulags, censorship, mass propaganda — we’ve got it all!
Oh, but wait…it gets better. We’ve not only turned into the Soviet Union, we’ve turned into the wet dream of all Soviet commisars — we’re now f***ing MING THE MERCILESS, SCOURGE OF THE UNIVERSE!
Let’s see, looka here — what’s this? Yes! We’ve got a pain ray
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/technology/technology.html?in
_article_id=482560&in_page_id=1965
and death-dealing robotic minions
http://www.defenselink.mil/transformation/articles/2004-12/ta120604c.html
Can you think of a single instance in science fiction in which these devices are not associated with evil supervillains? Usually bald evil supervillains? With goatees? Dressed in long flowing black robes? With huge collars that stick out from their
necks? Evil supervillains who rub their hands and say things like “BWAHAHAHA! Tremble before Ming the Mercilless, puny earthling!”…?
Has the Pentagon been reading some kind of Evil Supervillain’s Manual? This is a wet dream straight ouf of the Soviet Central Committeee crica 1957 — “Comrades, we need pain rays and death-dealing robots!” I mean, what? Are they getting this stuff from some lost copy of the Necronomicon? Do the Joint Chiefs sit around watching old Buck Rogers films and shouting, “Yeah! That’s what we need! Agony rays! And killer robots!”…?
demimondian
Um. Charles? You really don’t want to answer the objection, do you? No, it is not all right if the Saudis do it, and it is not all right if we do it.
Charles Bird
What would you say to the average ‘moderate’ Muslim, bound as he is to the idea of jihad in the defense of Islam, who feels that Bush Administration policy is demonstrably and objectively anti-Muslim?
I would say, Wilfred, that such a decision should be up to the prominent clerics and scholars, not on a ‘moderate’ Muslim’s feelings. As it is, most in the ummah are smart enough to know that we are not attacking Islamism, not Islam, therefore jihad not necessary.
Lastly, you follow the ridiculous assumption that after years of hearing and rejecting the Wahabi message, the average Muslim somehow has never heard the real Koranic message.
What assumption? The Saudis who are doing the deprogramming of al Qaeda prisoners are predominantly Wahhabi. I’ll grant there isn’t much theological difference between Wahhabis and al Qaeda types, but at least the Wahhabi leaders have not declared war against us and at least they have misgivings about using terrorist tactics. That said, my opinion of that interpretation of Islam is pretty low.
No, it is not all right if the Saudis do it, and it is not all right if we do it.
Right, demi. Because teaching those Muslims detainees proper Islam is evil and Stalinist, especially to those Muslims whose faith has been perverted by the neo-Salafis. We are fighting an ideology every bit as much as we are fighting its practitioners, but heaven forbid we do anything to address a root cause.
Wilfred
Bird:
As a member of the ummah, I have real doubts about that. To the extent that I can no longer say with a clear conscience to my Muslim brothers in Iraq and Lebanon that the Bush Administration is not at war with Islam. They don’t believe it anymore. Neither mere denial on your part, nor any referral to ‘clerics and scholars’, themselves an accretion to the individuality of Muslim identity and responsibility and an ‘appeal to authority’ to people trained to think for themselves, are sufficient explanation. The operative idea is al-wala wal-bara; which is not within the purview of non-Muslims to discuss. Killing Muslim children in Lebanon, Palestine and Iraq under the rubric of attacking ‘Islamism’ may assuage your personal conscience but has convinced no one in the Muslim world.
Substitute the words Jews and Judaism in this sentence and tell me you would make the same statement to them. I’d be glad to tell you, or anyone else, what proper Islam is. The problem is you and your kind are stone deaf.
This is patently absurd. For one thing, the survival of the House of Saud is intimately connected with what is commonly called Wahabism, although Salafism is a better term. In fact, the rise of this fictitious ‘house’ was dependent on the religious legitimacy bestowed by 18th century Salafists. I don’t have time now to dismantle the simplistic thinking involved in your comment other than to say it is based on several incorrect assumptions, the most glaring of which is your understanding of what correct behavior of Muslims can and should be.
BIRDZILLA
This will drive the ACLU crazy we all know how left-wing the ACLU is
Ellison, Ellensburg, Ellers, and Lambchop
No one is really dull-witted enough to buy that, are they? “Falling to the level of terrorists?” So convincing people to kill innocents is the same morally as convincing them NOT to kill innocents? It rather seems that what this program is doing is the exact opposite of what Al Qaeda and the radical clerics are doing, no?
Yeah, we’d hate to sink to the level of terrorists by teaching Muslims not to murder!
I’d start by trusting that Muslims are not as stupid as your question is. They can learn the difference between being at war with Muslim terrorist states (states which have oppressed and killed their fellow Muslims by the millions) and being at war with Muslims in general. After all, the US wouldn’t have to go to the Middle East to kill Muslims, would we? We could do that in Dearborn or Houston!
Even after years of anti-American indoctrination, Muslims can learn through observation (as they have learned in Anbar), and given time, we can show Muslims around the world that what they’ve been taught about Americans is a lie.
So you’ve hit on one reason that success in Iraq is important. We have to defeat the “America is at war with Islam!” propaganda of the radical clerics to change the mindset of that region (I don’t see how that rhetoric works, anyway, since it should become evident to every Muslim sooner or later that if the United States straight-up hated Muslims, we would’ve turned most of them into a fine, powdery ash by now…but that would be evil, and we are not evil).
A positive example of the changing attitudes of Iraqi Muslims is found in Anbar, where the locals at first thought the US were imperialist devils, and now they know the truth (which puts them one up on 80% of the posters here).
Wilfred
Lambchop, You’re either a damned fool or a an excellent spoof. Either way, I’m not wasting my time with you. If you believe what you wrote here, you are out of your fucking mind. Michael Totten and our little brown brothers – surreal.
I will assure you of one thing. Snarky, veiled threats against Muslim-Americans like the one you make here are commonplace on gutter sites like Redstate and LGF. They’re all noted. When your Republican candidates pass through Dearborn, Northern Virginia, Houston and other places, voters are informed of what the Republican base thinks – ask George Allen.
Ellison, Ellensburg, Ellers, and Lambchop
Come on, we all know that the reason you can’t say anything is because you’ve got nothing. You can’t compete with the truth. The Anbar Awakening will not go away because you can’t deal with the “surreal” pictures of happy Iraqis with our troops, or because you don’t want to hear about the shift in Iraqi attitudes that comes about when they see how Americans are not what they have been told we are.
Who you gonna believe — the AP lefties holed up in the Green Zone, the electioneering Washington politicians who have never set foot in Iraq, or the pictures and the stories of coming from journos actually in Ramadi and Fallujah? How about the testimony of an anti-war Democrat who saw the improvements firsthand, and now is being vilified by the hard left for Betraying the Narrative?
Which, of course, is why some Democrats can’t bear to see Iraq succeed. The last thing they want is images and stories coming out that conflict with their Endless Hellhole Iraq narrative.
You’re insane. No threats were made, ever, nor would I ever do such a thing. You’re absolutely out of your tiny mind. Get help.
Charles Bird
To the extent that I can no longer say with a clear conscience to my Muslim brothers in Iraq and Lebanon that the Bush Administration is not at war with Islam.
I’m sorry that you and your fellow Muslims have those feelings and perceptions, Wilfred.