What We Are Up Against
I didn’t watch the debates last night, as I was busy doing something more important. I think I was watching the Sci-Fi channel while playing Civ III, actually. At any rate, I wanted to see if there was any buzz, and via the predictable Michelle Malkin, this piece of “analysis” from village idiot Dan “WHERE IS NATALEE HOLLOWAY” Riehl:
I watched the Republican debate via Fox News.com and took advantage of the ability to watch it with the so-called People Meter which gave a running response from two focus group’s reactions to the candidates as they spoke by graphically presenting a mean number. There were two lines, one for moderates, one for conservatives.Putting the candidates aside for a moment, what I saw was that when the message was win in Iraq, it didn’t matter which candidate was saying it – the numbers for both conservatives and moderates went through the roof. And the stronger the talk, the higher the mean number. The only other issues that came close were immigration and taxes – the more talk there was of lower taxes, the higher the meter went. And moderates, as well as conservatives, wanted straight, tough talk on illegal immigration, as well.
That is what passes for wisdom from the right when it comes to Iraq- “winning” is popular. Who would have thunk it? Is this a surprise to anyone? Dan Riehl and Michelle Malkin love to pretend that everyone not in the 28% crowd really hates America, but is there really a notable segment of the population who DOESN’T want us to win in Iraq, whatever that means anymore? Christ on a crutch, of course the concept of winning is popular. I am going to guess that free oral sex (yes, Republican congressmen- it can be gay oral sex if you like) and a million dollars to every adult would also rate high on the ‘People Meter.’
And that is where we are- the notion of “winning” is popular, so we will get all sorts of happy talk about “winning” from the Republican Presidential hopefuls. And since “winning” is popular, it stands to reason that “losing” is unpopular- we will leave “losing” to the Democrats. Pay not attention to the news from the region- that is all pushed by the “loser” Democrats and their allies in the liberal media. The people want to win, so we talk about winning.
Serenity now.
Bubblegum Tate
Of course not. But the Malkintents of the world define “doesn’t want us to win in Iraq” as “don’t nod in bobbleheaded agreement with Bush.” They think that if you aren’t spouting the administration’s party line, then you hate America and want the terrorists to win.
As somebody very clever pointed out (perhaps on this very blog, I can’t remember for sure), it’s like accusing somebody who is calling 911 to report a murder of rooting for the murderer.
Tom Hilton
And when the message was “free unicorns for everybody!” the numbers also went through the roof. Which just proves that the Leftards who say unicorns don’t exist must really hate America.
jenniebee
That game’s been going on for ages: DFHs talk policy, Serious people answer back in politics.
It’s one of the reasons that we talk past each other on Iraq. Teh Hippies want to sit everybody down and talk about goals and whether they’re achievable and do a cost-benefit analysis… well, the conclusion there is foregone, but whatever. Teh Seriouserers want a win. They want to know that We’re the Strongest and the Bestest and God is On Our Side.
I don’t think I’ll ever forget trawling the Freepers as the Libby verdict was coming in. Very excited people posting, very involved in that verdict, and a few posting, literally, “I hope he’s acquitted. We really need a win.” Universal agreement with those posts, too. Nobody said “it isn’t the win, it’s the principle of x and the y ramifications that could lead to z.” They just wanted a win for their side. And that’s really the essence of what it was all about. Might as well be compulsive gamblers.
Lee
Civ III
?!
Buy the new Civ IV.
You will not be sorry.
cleek
CivIII is better
ThymeZone
You nailed it.
Catsy
Eh, I have my moments of nostalgia for Civ III, particularly the Artillery Mod—which was so good that I permanently replaced the original rules with it.
But the gameplay innovations in Civ IV are just incredible, though I can see how someone might not like them. It’s a very different game now.
Lee
To each his own I guess. /shrug
I’ve wasted many hours on both and Civ IV has a much more intricate engine. I’m the type that likes to fiddle around with the various settings to get interesting results.
My favorite action is taking over an opposing city thru cultural warfare :)
Zifnab
Remind me again why “Very Serious People” are still considered to hold the conservative end of the political spectrum.
We’ve got Al Gore being chastised for relying too heavily on science and smarts, Howard Dean horsewhipped for bucking DC consultants in favor of populist support, John Edwards castigated for helping the poor, Barak Obama run through the ringer for not being black enough, ....
It’s ten gallons of bullshit in a one gallon bag. Who has any credibility anymore? It’s a world gone insane.
And Civ IV had better graphics. Other than that, I didn’t notice a huge difference.
chopper
if only they’d define what ‘winning in iraq’ actually means.
jnfr
Civ III is not better. I still think Civ II had the best gameplay though.
Where’s my pony?
timb
Civ IV is so much superior….I love you, Cleek, but Civ 4 is just a better, more intricate game.
Punchy
I was just going to comment this myself. You took the balls right out of my mouth.
F
Should I be reminded of Stephenson & George’s “Interface”?
Cyrus
Well, suppose being driven out of Iraq because of violence we can’t control counts as losing. That doesn’t even sound too unreasonable by itself. The corollary to that, then, is the idea that NOT being driven out of Iraq counts as winning. Those who want us to leave, want us to lose. If we stay in Iraq indefinitely, no matter whether the Iraqis want us there, we’re fulfilling our objectives.
I would call this colonialism. Imperial ambitions justified entirely by belligerence, not even bothering with a half-assed pretense like “white man’s burden.” However, that’s probably giving too much credit for coherent thought to someone who still supports the war. Being forced to leave because of the actions of enemy fighters = losing. (Sort of. If it’s zero-sum. At least, so it appears.) Therefore, staying despite the actions of combatants = winning. Simple.
ThymeZone
I see a bright future for you in politics.
As for the offers …. I really don’t need the money.
:)
Dreggas
I see a bright future for you in politics.
As for the offers …where’s the nearest restroom. I really don’t need the money.
:)
Sorry TZ it just had to be done.
r4d20
Ummm….what about LEONARD NIMOY?
“Hath not the potter power over the clay to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor”. I never get tired of hearing that :).
Then there are the combat bonuses thatmakes combat slightly more “realistic” than before – spearmen rightfully get bonuses against horsemen, archers rightfully defend cities better than any other unit before gunpowder.
In my opinion (aka. the “Word of God”) Civ-4 kicks Civ-3s ass.
r4d20
I know. Its sad. Truth is that we lose if we leave and if we stay because we cannot obtain our objectives.
In war:
“winning” = “obtaining your objectives”
“losing” = “failing to obtain your objectives”
Its that simple and anyone who does not understand this – apparently 25%+ of this country – should acknowledge they are clueless, stay home, shut up, and leave serious business to people who know what they are doing.
ThymeZone
Understood.
Fledermaus
That’s funny I was just playing Civ III as well last night. My computer crashed last spring and I just got a replacement. Sadly it is used and probably too old to run Civ IV - so I can’t compare. But I can’t believe all you Sid Meyer freaks haven’t mentioned “Alpha Centuari” I still have that on CD-rom. Now that was an amazing game.
Xenos
In Chess it is called “zugzwang”. You are reduced to a choice between two terrible paths:
a) stay in Iraq and have ongoing casualties with no reasonable hope of stabilizing the country;
b) leave Iraq, have the bloody place fall apart completely, and suffer devastating loss of prestige, political power, and so on.
You can’t really set up an opponent to put them into zugzwang – he usually has to get there through a really serious blunder.
Dreggas
Civ III turned me off to the entire concept of ever playing any version of the Civ games. In a word it sucked. I much prefer a game like Empire Earth.
Observations on the debate « Greg Prince’s Blog
[...] Posted by Greg on September 6th, 2007 John Cole nails it: That is what passes for wisdom from the right when it comes to Iraq- “winning” is popular. Who would have thunk it? Is this a surprise to anyone? Dan Riehl and Michelle Malkin love to pretend that everyone not in the 28% crowd really hates America, but is there really a notable segment of the population who DOESN’T want us to win in Iraq, whatever that means anymore? Christ on a crutch, of course the concept of winning is popular. I am going to guess that free oral sex (yes, Republican congressmen- it can be gay oral sex if you like) and a million dollars to every adult would also rate high on the ‘People Meter.’ [...]
Zifnab
In Civilization, it’s called “the point at which you reload your last save.”
Pb
Master of Magic is teh bestest.
chopper
populous still wins, hands down.
Dreggas
populous still wins, hands down.
go to http://www.puzo.org and click on the “Games” link then either search for it if it’s not on the first page, or check the second page. It’s there for download, but you didn’t hear that from me…
whippoorwill
This is the end game for the Republican 30 year effort at political engineering{or manipulation} of the English language in order to capture a permanent electoral majority. Tens of millions spent by right wing think tanks for the Orwellian speak of death tax, clear skies initiative ,tax and spend liberals etc..
And for awhile it worked until Lincoln’s axiom of “you can’t fool all the people all time” kicked in. Now there knee deep in policy failures across the board and are beginning to sound like one those dying “smart” computers in the movies that start sputtering all sorts of jibberish just before their circuits blow.
r4d20
Dems fighting words. I demand satisfaction.
Pistols @ dawn?
Dreggas
Dems fighting words. I demand satisfaction.
Pistols @ dawn?
I much prefer broadswords…
r4d20
Sometimes I think some Republicans think that running this country is just a game of Civ – one giant game of the imagination with no real effects that matter.
Hell look at the talk via-a-vis Iran. They fucked up Iraq and now they want to “reload” and try again.
Randolph Fritz
Yow! “For motherhood, and against sin and the man-eating shark.” But there’s a point worth attention here: if we hadn’t lost the war, I think that there would be almost no attention paid the other problems of this administration, not the wholesale abrogations of civil rights, not alienating our allies, not the economic disasters now shaping up. As Converse observed in 1964, it is still that case that only perhaps 10% of citizens pay real attention to policy. We have a long way to go, still, in inventing democracy.
Tom Hilton
Well, sort of, but I think it’s a little more complicated than that. Before 9/11, there was a whole lot of attention paid to the incipient failures of this administration. 9/11 provided a massive distraction, and the invasion of Iraq prolonged the distraction; the failure of the war re-focused attention on the broader failures that the war had helped to obscure.
Phoenician in a time of Romans
Civ IV is so much superior….I love you, Cleek, but Civ 4 is just a better, more intricate game.
There’s a lot to be said for the Paradox range as well – Hearts of Iron II, Victoria…
Z
I love Civ III. Dreggas, how could you hate that game??
Civ II was my first Sid Meyer love, though. It was also easier to cheat in. World domination is so satisfying.
Guess I am going to have to pick up a copy of IV.
Dreggas
I love Civ III. Dreggas, how could you hate that game??
Uh…Ghandi?
Seriously I just didn’t like it. I didn’t like the game play and the how it was setup with regard to being turn based. Not to mention the fact that even on easy it seemed I’d get pummeled within 2 turns.
For conquest/strategy games I much prefer games like Empire Earth, Age of Empires, and for sheer fantasy starcraft and even better Warhammer 40k Dawn Of War.
cpl
“Serenity now.”
I second that emotion. What incredible emptiness.
jnfr
Master of Magic is teh bestest.
Pb gets the power-up and wins the game!!
jake
Daaaaisy, daaaaaisy…
Great comparison. There was a time when you knew the Admin. was a sack of lying ferrets but they had their spiel down pat (with a big asterix for President Gibberish).
Now meaning has flown off in disgust and you only have to wait until they blurt out a semi-coherent paragraph. The first half of the statement will contradict the latter half or it’s just a string of passive phrases and disjointed sound bites that are the human equivalent of the blue screen of doom.
Though I usually read the quotes rather than hear them, I can’t help but wonder if they speak in the breathy, gulping voice of an eight-year old who knows they’ll be in big trouble if you ask any questions.
High on Kool-Aid or flop-sweat, brown pants scared? I can’t decide.
Punchy
This could just of well been written in Sanskrit.
Davis X. Machina
...if only they’d define what ‘winning in iraq’ actually means.
Control of the US Senate and House, with veto-proof majorities, and the White House. A Mulroney’d Democratic Party, for a generation.
What makes you think that the objectives of the Iraq war are to be found in Iraq?
JWW
I’ll be Kind,
You play your PC game and have all the fun you want. Make pretend, all the outcomes you forsee come true. It is a game, written in code and gives those willing to replay events the 100% chance of going to the next level in the game. If the game ended at your first failure, you would ask for your money back. We are not living “Duffers Drift”. Find a way to hide your camel toe, read a little real history, not watch the movie.
Jay
All is well in Republican land, Goldstein (I mean Osama Bin Laden) has just released a video in time for the special 9-11—2 minutes hate.
I have to believe that in their heart of hearts most Bush voters are secretly grateful to bin Laden for his 2004 video before the election. Without that video I doubt that Bush would have been reelected.
Gilmore
but is there really a notable segment of the population who DOESN’T want us to win in Iraq
Me. I don’t want us to win in Iraq. We are trying to take over a country and set up our own puppet government so we can steal its resources and use it as a giant aircraft carrier. I hope we fail. It’s wrong.
You want us to “win” in Iraq, John? Why?
timb
There’s a lot to be said for the Paradox range as well – Hearts of Iron II, Victoria…
I as playing Hearts of Iron 2 just three seconds ago. A fine game
jake
Brother man has to pay for his dialysis treatments, yo.
Sorry, I don’t know where that came from.
No wait, I do. It comes from living in a fucked up corner of the world where Bin Laden : BackStreetBoys, Bush Admin. :: Hormone fueled teenaged girls.
OMG! OMG! This iz sooo kewel! He’s like, the Biggest Bad Guy EVA and like, we get to see him!!
Why, there’s even a little style commentary because ObL has dyed his beard.
Jesus (NTZYM) Christ, what kind of crazy ass universe have I fallen into? Did the cops of Sedgwick Co. KS do a little happy dance when the BTK strangler started sending them love notes after nearly two decades of silence? No, because the idea of a ruthless killer getting away drives sane law enforcement officials crazy. But the dipshits in the White House set out to catch a ruthless killer, lost interest when they had him pinned down, sent soldiers on Pony Quest in a country that had nothing to do with the ruthless killer and six years later, ruthless killer is still on the loose. But are the fuckers in the White House ashamed or bothered by the fact that ruthless killer is still free to say Neener-neener while soldiers and civilians are being slaughtered nearly three countries away from the place ruthless killer is known to be hiding? No, they’re EC-FUCKING-STATIC that ruthless killer is still at large.
That my friends is how bat shit crazy the people running this country are. I bet Bush will “do tears” if the release party is canceled.
CaseyL
Yeah, I heard that too, and my jaw about hit the floor – not good, as I was driving at the time. OBL masterminded the murder of 3000+ people, and the MSM’s talking about his freakin beard? When do we get fashionistas swooning over his caftan?
Maybe it’s because he got away with such a huge atrocity. People do like to identify with ‘winners,’ after all… and so far, the one person on the planet who has clearly ‘won’ Bush-Cheney’s war to remake the Middle East is OBL.
elspi
I would have a lot more respect teh homosexuals if it weren’t for the fact that so many of them turn out to be republican congressmen
elspi
I would have a lot more respect teh homosexuals if it weren’t for the fact that so many of them turn out to be republican congressmen
AlanDownunder
In “Monty Python and the Holy Grail”, the Black Knight was all in favour of winning. That guy needs some serious US air time.
TenguPhule
Welcome to Crazyworld, first visit here?
TenguPhule
MOO, bitches!!
Because nothing says lovin like an armada of Deathstars packing Deathrays and Black Hole Generators.
TenguPhule
Seconded. There’s nothing so relaxing as being able to drop a few planetbusters on that meglomanical facist SOB faction leader living next to you.
Or mindworming his troops to death. Brains! Brains!!