Apparently, Hillary sees invisible people:
Sullivan says it makes him gag- I agree. More than likely I will vote for a crazy-ass libertarian or even Nader in 2008 if Hillary is the Democratic candidate. Of the Democratic candidates, right now there are only two I don’t think I could hold my nose and vote for- Edwards and Hillary. Time may change that, and depending on how awful the GOP candidates are (and there is every reason to believe, based on what we have seen so far, that they will be completely cringe-inducing), I could be persuaded that failing to vote for them is a de facto vote vote for the GOP. Hell- I would vote for Gore, Kucinich, and Nader over Hillary.
As a side note, something has got to be done about the length of our elections. I heard some rumbling that Iowa may move their caucus to December. December. I simply can not take 14 months of this. It is insane, and all of us will be insane by the end of this. We shouldn’t have to put up with drippy, syrupy, idiotic campaign ads until at least April or May of next year. The Great Satan just announced he is stepping down- can’t we take a few months and celebrate and put off this distasteful and tedious exercise in electing someone who will no doubt let us down for just a few more months?
*** Update ***
One last rant- I am sick and tired of these populist commercials showing candidates completely out of their element to demonstrate they are a man of the people. Hillary in a damned field is as dumb as Kerry in a hunting suit or Bush, well, anywhere. Seriously- the people are idiots. We voted for Bush twice. We doubt evolution. More people care about the Super Bowl than the election. All those idiots in the field are concerned about is farm subsidies and the growing ethanol lobby, and I don’t want a candidate who is at one with those people.
jenniebee
A parliamentary system with snap elections?
Live the dream.
Srsly, the election season will be as long as there is money available to fund it. And the longer it is, the fewer candidates will make it to the point where anybody gets to actually vote for them. If you want shorter elections, publicly fund them. Simple as that.
ThymeZone
Wow. A guy who voted for Bush, now might vote for Nader.
This is exciting! It’s kind of like watching an ant farm, right after you put the charcoal lighter down the hole but before you set fire to it.
Look how unsuspecting those ants are! Har har!
Now, we’re all looking forward to another fun election season here at the BJ fireside.
Are Rick and Tall Dave coming back?
John Cole
Keep it up, Thyme, and I will move to San Fran and vote for Cindy, stopping on my move across country to plant McCain/Brownback 2008 banners all over your yard.
Zifnab
Ok, so I’ve got an idea for a campaign commercial. You’ve got Dennis Kucinnich sitting casually at his desktop computer, giving you his pitch. Then you hear a “ding!”, he turns to his computer, and he says “Ah, porn’s done.”
There. Now you’re a man of the people.
capelza
Meh…not a glowing fan of hers, but I do have to tell you that hearing a woman’s voice in a serious presidental campaign just gave me goosebumps.
Hate on her, but damn I like being able to say that the GOP is afraid of a WOMAN running for President.
Must be because I am a “lady” (suddenly hears those two tranvestites from “Little Britain”).
Tim in SF
You want shorter elections? Let’s have national primaries. That way everybody goes first.
John S.
Gore, definitely. Kucinich doesn’t really appeal to me in the sligthest. But Nader…oh man, that wrinkled old gasbag couldn’t buy my fucking vote. If anyone violates your mother’s rule on presidential candidates, it’s Ralph Nader. That guy has an ego larger than at least a handful of states.
Still, I’m not sure where your loathing of Edwards comes from (the gut??), but I’d happily vote for him in an instant if he were the nominee. I’d really have to hold my nose to vote for Hillary, though. And the only thing that would ultimately help me pull the lever for her is looking at the GOP field and seeing what a bunch of fucking zagnuts they are.
Paul L.
OMG, That voice. America’s mother-in-law.
Why does she always sound like she is nagging.
Is it considered torture if they played her speeches to the prisoners at Gitmo in a continuous loop?
Of course to Muslin male, a woman speaking to them not in a subdued/deferentially manner is torture.
capelza
Is it because she is a castiron bitch? A centrist castiron bitch to boot!
I mean, is ANY Republican not a castiron motherfucking bastard?
Was that bad language?
Jake
I assume this is a Royal We, old King Cole.
I used to get pretty pissed at people who engaged in Fuck You voting because (according to these folks) “It will teach both parties a lesson” or “Both parties are the same,” or “Diebold picks the winner anyway,” or some other puzzling line of reasoning that amounts to an announcement that the speaker’s life is so stable that short of a dictator who lobs bombs at his citizens when he’s bored the person leading the country has little real impact on their day-to-day lives.
But now I mostly think it’s great that we live in a country where people can engage in Fuck You voting. The citizens are so certain of their voting rights they can play around with their votes. Write in Nader, write in Mickey Mouse. It’s fun and big angry goons won’t come break your legs!
Of course, if Mittens Romney winds up in the White House, we may have words.
On this we can all agree.
demimondian
So, Paul, how would a Percale male feel about a woman speaking to him in an insufficiently deferential manner? What about a Satin male?
Jill
YOU voted for Bush twice.
David Schraub
I’m curious what your beef is with Obama. You’ve never included him on your list of “hold my nose and vote for him,” but you’ve never (to my knowledge) explained why you dislike him (or see him as less votable than Hillary or Edwards). I’m just curious what makes him comparatively worse, in your opinion.
Zifnab
Fixed, because they hate us for our freedom.
ThymeZone
Be sure to check out the Rice-A-Roni!
David
That guy in the field with Hillary wasn’t a farmer. He was probably an exec with Archer Daniels Midland. Gotta make sure than ethanol money is secure, after all…
Dreggas
I agree with a jackalope…wow.
RandyH
Speaking of stupid voters, a great Family Guy clip…
“Lois, undecided voters are the biggest idiots on the planet. Try giving short simple answers.”
Paul L.
Correction: Muslim male
Would Disco Stu be a polyester male?
Dreggas
oh and John, Hillary’s fakery reminded me of this
Bubblegum Tate
Me either. Is it the smarm factor?
I’m doing my best to not pay attention to any of the campaign bullshit because it’s utterly stupid to be in campaign fever mode right now. What little I’ve seen, though, is batting 1.000 when it comes to making me roll my eyes.
myiq2xu
The really disgusting part is that no matter who wins in November 2008, before the first Thanksgiving turkey is in the oven the media will be talking about who the frontrunners will be in 2012.
“Exploratory committees” will be forming and various Governors, Senators and other wannabees will be planning visits to Iowa before the first snowflake falls.
Damn you, Scott Beauchamp!
ThymeZone
So do I. But the difference between us and PaulL is that we’ll hold our noses and ears and vote for HRC if we have to, but he would probably vote for the insane Young Earth Creationist that the GOP might put up.
I will put the country ahead of my eardrums.
mrmobi
Golly, John, aside from not really wanting to know what makes Mr. Sullivan gag (know-what-I-mean, nudge-nudge?), you’re really being a great-big-fucking-idiot.
It’s a campaign commercial, John. As I’ve said here before, Hillary is not my first choice, but I can’t see any of the current Party of Torture crop doing anything to make things better in our government. They’re just a bunch of fear-mongering faux-conservatives who can’t wait to get their hands on all the new powers Bush is bestowing on the Monarchy.
Do you want to install a Republican who will further refine our methods of torture and include American Citizens in “times of emergency”? Is it your most fervent wish that FEMA continues to be unable to respond to emergencies? Would you like to see our military completely destroyed?
Is there some secret handshake that the Democratic candidates don’t know about, or is your unwillingness to vote for a woman democrat simply gynophobia? If it is, you’ve got lots of company. Lots of Republican men fear powerful women, so I guess your reaction is not surprising.
You voted for the worst President of our time (twice) and now you might vote for… Ralph Nader! (because that vote will really… do what, exactly?) Do you see what an amazingly foolish choice that would be?
I guess it’s true that we get the government we deserve. So I’d like to remind you that the government we have now is probably better than the one you’ll get if you vote for any of the Republican candidates or simply throw your vote away on Ralph Nader. The government we have now is what you get when you vote with your head up your ass. Want more of that?
Maybe you’ll luck out and Newt will decide to run. I’m pretty sure he knows the secret handshake.
mrmobi
Amen, TZ.
Dreggas
Well, honestly since I have the privilege of living in California I probably won’t pull the lever for her. I don’t like her, don’t like her policies and quite honestly don’t want her as president. So I will gladly cast a protest vote knowing that the state will go for the dem and sleep well since my vote, in this state, means exactly jack squat.
It will be Kerry redux, somehow clinton will be the “electible one” and the bullshit will continue unabated with the “safe” choices being made not by me or anyone else here but by those who live in early primary states.
Come the general it will come down to “battleground states” and once again, my vote won’t mean shit.
Sorry for the rant but really tired of “establishment” dems being chosen because somehow they are “electible”. Just more cowardice.
Rick Taylor
Hello John,
Can you explain more why you’re so opposed to Hillary, or point me to a link that explains it? Some conservatives positively loath her, and I just don’t get it. Of course conservatives accuse us liberals of “Bush Hatred,” but I can write out a long list of precisely why I can’t stand Bush (my country now supports torture would be near the top of the list), and I wouldn’t need to refer to any sappy campaign commercials to do it. I won’t be voting for Hillary in the primaries, as I can’t see supporting someone whose judgment was so poor that they voted to launch this debacle of a war, but I’d support her over any of the Republican candidates who look like they have a prayer of winning the nomination in a heartbeat.
–Rick Taylor
Dennis-SGMM
By the time this campaign is over we’ll all be so heartily sick of the candidates that Carrot Top will be elected as a write-in.
JL
Having moved several times to various parts of the country I have always voted according to the issues. It never mattered whether they had a D or R after there name because I looked at the issues. I no longer feel that way. If the state had a lever for dems I would pull it because I no longer know what consertative means.
JL
Having moved several times to various parts of the country I have always voted according to the issues. It never mattered whether they had a D or R after there name because I looked at the issues. I no longer feel that way. If the state had a lever for dems I would pull it because I no longer know what conservative means.
grumpy realist
I’m a liberal female. I don’t like HRC because she gives the impression of talking out of both sides of her mouth on every issue. AFTER running a series of polls.
I don’t think she’s without courage, exactly. But I do think she’s learned how to triangulate herself into oblivion, and I wonder whether she has enough courage to yank the country back into the path of protection of civil rights, checks and balances, and all that stuff.
The only reason I’ll vote for HRC is that I’m sure the Republican candidate is either going to be a fascistic paranoid, a religious nut, or a flip-flopper who can’t hold a position for 10 minutes, let alone 4 years.
JL
One more thing, I’m not a big Hill fan but I liked the ad, John you can do what you want obviously but then don’t bitch about it okay.
yet another jeff
Disco Stu doesn’t advertise.
C’mon, how is it possible to take any risk that might result in President Benito Giuliani?
Steve
Seriously, I’m not sure how anyone couldn’t feel comfortable voting for a candidate opposed by Paul L. I mean, that’s a pretty reliable barometer right there.
JL
yet another Jeff, What is interesting about your comment is the Catholic Churches position in Italy during WWII. It’s all about the money isn’t it?
Jimmm
Sullivan is the least principled, least intellectually honest “pundit” currently earning a paycheck. He seems motivated mostly by self interest dressed in phony concern for Lockian this or Thatcherite that, and accessorized by a mountain-sized case of Hitlery agonistes. I wish he’d just shut his whiny ass up and stay up in P-town.
And please can we not make references to his gag reflex…
Jimmm
Staying in the real world, Hitlery v. any of the current–or potential–slate of GOP stooges is still a bloodbath. Ask the voters of NY what they think of their senator. 68-percent approval ratings, for starters.
And she’s got more balls than that thick-necked Limey twerp concern troll Sullivan ever will.
Jimmm
Zifnab: “‘Ding,’ porn’s done”
Brilliant.
Aaron
For most of his life Juan Cole was a Republican and even though in recent years he has realized what a bunch of nixonian neofascists and far right religious zealots they really are, he still has pure republicanism at his core- which is to say: a gooey core of pure stupidity.
Once again he has fallen for the republican game- the character assination game, whereby any prominant dem is labeled as crazy/wierd/inhuman/emotionless and of course in Hillary’s case: calculating.
Imagine, a politician who is calculating. I am truly shocked. Shocked I tell you.
Clearly she is not the person Juan Cole wants to have a beer with!
And of course, Edwards got a hair cut! and cares about poor people. Or as those Republicans want you to believe, ‘pretends to care about’. Truly shocking.
Clearly he should not be at the bar when Juan goes down to the bar on candidates drink free night.
Juan Cole remembers his days in 2000 and 2004 when he would meet with George and Carl and Dick at the bar and they would all drink beer and laugh about Al and John and Howard.
Boy that sure turned out well!
So what if they shredded the constitution. So what if theyve instituted a creepy surveilance state. So what if you now have the right to be declared an ‘enemy combatant’ and deported out of the country where you then have the right to confess to anything they want during ‘enhanced interrogation techniques’.
Now years later, instead of learning from his mistakes, instead of learning that the issues matter, Juan Cole is still strongly committed to his core Republican principle: Stupidity.
And as such he knows that the most important thing in choosing a presidential candidate is not the issues. Its the echo chamber of a media narrative about ‘character’ as promulgated by the Republican party.
So if Juan Cole has to vote for a Republican dirty trick like Ralph Nader instead of a Democratic candidate, however flawed, well thats just him sticking to his core principals. Core Republican principals.
And Karl Rove can leave the White House happy, knowing how well he has done his job.
Oh look, it’s Al Sharpton! And Cindy Sheehan!!
CaseyL
John, I too would like to know why you dislike Clinton so much.
She’s not my first choice, but the more I actually see and hear her, the higher my opinion of her gets. She’s really not the caricature the MSM and GOP and wingnuts have so eagerly created for so many years. (In fact, I think that caricature is going to backfire on them if she gets the nomination, as more and more people realize it bears no resemblance to reality.)
I’m not too worried about her “40% negatives.” I figure at least half of that is from people who won’t vote for the Democratic nominee anyway. And she’s shown she can overcome negatives: witness her landslide re-election in NY, including among upstate voters who started out hating her.
Mind you, if the Dem nominee is Obama, I’ll be doing cartwheels. But I’ll be almost as pleased if it’s Clinton. Not only is she smart, eloquent, tough, dedicated to public service, and (for a politician) honest, it would be incredibly cool to have a woman as President.
Otto Man
Hillary’s low on my list of Democratic candidates, but I’d definitely be able to hold my nose and pull the lever for her.
Why? Because she’s not an empty suit who promises the American people nothing but greed, stupidity and bloodlust. You know, a Republican.
Bob In Pacifica
I’m sorry, I’ll vote for any Democrat before I’d risk another Repub anywhere the White House. Having said that, Hillary is behind just about every other Democrat.
Meanwhile, I like how the Niners look tonight so far.
Bob In Pacifica
And I wouldn’t vote for Nader with your touch-screen.
Andrew
I don’t know if Aaron is spoofing poorly what with the “Juan Cole” thing or just sort of dumb.
John Cole
I don’t like Hillary or Edwards because I have had enough cynical, triangulating, opportunistic bullshit for one lifetime, thank you very much. If that upsets you, well, tough. Just because I was too god damned dim to recognize it from the GOP with Bush and this cabal of morons does not mean that I am somehow prepared to accept it from Hillary and Edwards because they are Democrats.
I think there are good people out there running for the democrats. I would gladly vote for Dodd, or perhaps even Obama.
And, as I have stated, I might be persuaded to even vote for Hillary and Edwards depending on the how awful the GOP is. If that isn’t good enough for you all, well, the DU is that way. I had enough groupthink and bullying in the GOP, so I really don’t need it here.
PS- That commercial was hideous. It was cringe-inducing, the music sucked, it was smarmy, and it made me gag, too. Fucking hire Frank Luntz for chrissakes. That invisible nonsense was laughable.
jake
With the front-runners it isn’t an either/or proposition, it’s a matter of percentages:
66% fascistic paranoid
24% flip-flopper
5% religious nut
10% fascistic paranoid
84% flip-flopper
6% religious nut
&-fucking-c.
If it helps, just remember the current crap of Republican candidates are actively trying to woo the people who would vote for Bush43 in a heart-beat. You’re too good for them.
John S.
Hillary positively oozes this stuff, but I still don’t get how you read that on Edwards. As far as I’m concerned, Hillary and Edwards aren’t even in the same league of politician.
Face
Hey Johnny MathMajor, wanna try 11? Yeah, I took that out of context. I thought I’d try and go Republican tonite.
Dream On
I think NAFTA made a lot of American workers “invisible.” Brought to you by the Clintons. What self-serving mendacious piffle. (I think John Edwards rightly wants his campaign ad back.)
Punchy
Shorter Cole–I fucking hate the GOP, but I’ll throw my vote away to prevent (symbolically) a Dem from winning because, ya know, there’s so many other parties out there.
And then I expect all of you to listen to me bitch about a GOP president for the next 4 years.
Rome Again
Hillary sees people who are passed over and ignored and you have an invisible friend you classify as a member of WE and you think SHE is the problem?
Pelikan
I want to chime in with David from way up at the top. Why does it seem that here, (and many other places) no-one even mentoins Obama?
The man is pretty much spoton with everything he says, and the lack-of-experience meme is really bullshit. He’s got as much experience in politics as Edwards and he has yet to lose a national election.
Why don’t we just nominate the dude and watch him catch votes from all but the 28%? I’d hazard that’s where most of the racists make their address these days anyway, judging by the number of “B. Hussein Obama” threads at Freep and LGF.
Whoops, I commented.
Pelikan
Hmm. “Spoton” = Spot On.
Though a Spoton Torpedo would be pretty badass.
Dave
I could never vote for Hilary. Why? Simple, I think we need new blood (and at the very least a new name) in the White House.
Hilary IMO is no better than Romney. Tells you what you want to hear and then moves on. I have not caught that same vibe from Edwards. I actually believe he does care about the “invisible people”. Don’t ask me why, just what little I know of his record, and if a haircut is the most the media has on home, well…seems ok in my book. Seriously, it’s not even 2008 yet though, while I follow politics, I’m waiting for the field to shake it self out a bit before looking too hard.
The one decision I have made is, if the Dems put up Hilary, I won’t vote, for the first time since I turned 18.
The Other Steve
Jeb Bush would make one hell of a President.
KC
Well, someone has to do it I guess, so here goes: I don’t think that add was that bad. Maybe it wasn’t wonderful, but it wasn’t horrible either. Given what we’re going to get in the coming year, the “I was the hero of 911” Guliani parade, I’ll take this commercial any day.
The Other Steve
If I see more of this from Edwards, I just may vote for him. John Kerry would have released a 12 page treatise.
John Edwards on Karl Rove’s resignation
tBone
I definitely understand how some people think Edwards is smarm over substance. He does emit a faint whiff of used car salesman.
Hillary? Bleh. I’ll need an industrial-strength clothespin to vote for her. She’s everything I disliked about her husband without any of the positives.
Out of the current crop of candidates, Obama is the one I could vote for and actually feel good about it. The others are all a Hobson’s choice to a greater or lesser degree.
Rome Again
I would be hard pressed to vote for her myself and would only do so if I were not given any other viable choices, but, I think her recognizing that there are groups of people who are ignored in regards to their health care needs is commendable.
Mason
14 months of normal campaigning is bad enough. 14 months of folks like capelza bleating about sexism just because Hillary is a fucking woman is just going to kill me. It’s only going to get worse..
sglover
Oh?
David Schraub
“Don’t think.” I = idiot. Sorry.
TenguPhule
With all due respect, given your past voting record so far, your impression about the Democratic Candidates isn’t exactly trustworthy.
All of the Republicans running are Nuts. Please don’t make the same mistake a third time.
TenguPhule
Fixed.
TenguPhule
Hillary I can see, but Edwards?
The GOP attack machine is going full bore against him.
A sure sign as any that he’s worth voting for.
TenguPhule
To mutilate an Atrios quote:
“The choice is not between Hillary/Edwards/Obama and a Pony Candidate. The choice is between a Democrat who will at worst mostly suck and King Bush III.”
Pb
I think that charge sticks fairly well to Hillary, but Edwards? Perhaps you could make a case for opportunism, but if anything Edwards’ campaign has been defined by its lack of cynical triangulation.
Richard Bennett
Edwards is the most cynical man in America, he’ll say anything anywhere anytime to get what he wants. He used to channel the voices of unborn babies to juries to get them to award damages against obstetricians who had the misfortune of dealing with messed-up patients. I’d vote for Rove, the Marx Brothers, or Osama bin Laden before I’d vote for him.
Hillary is one of the legitimate centrists in the race, and the only one of the Democrats who’s not a craven hustler. If it comes down to her vs. Giuliani, the country could do a lot worse, even thought she’s a castrating bitch.
ThymeZone
After three years of reading your posts, I’d say that blurb summarizes your position very succinctly.
“Castrating bitch.” Is that something from your political science background?
rachel
“Castrating bitch…” For some reason, the filter in my mind always interprets that as: “A woman who isn’t in awe of my penis.”
Slide
simply fucking precious. the moron that voted for bush TWICE and the wiz kid that thought that invading Iraq was just a swell idea, is now telling us who he won’t be able to vote for Hillary. Uh huh. In my book, that represents a ringing endorsement.
Go Hillary !
Slide
the moron:
yeah… Hillary and Edwards are just carbon copies of Bush. It scares me that they allow you to vote at all Cole.
Ok, other than swarmy political ads, please tell me why Hillary is such a HORRIBLE candidate. Specifics please I’m all ears. What terrible defect does she possess to hate her so much? hmmmm? or is that just the knee jerk reaction from a pajamas media jerk?
Frank
Andrew- Aaron may have gotten John’s name wrong but he got everything else right.
Rusty Shackleford
Did it ever occur to you that the reason why Hillary is standing on a farm (or damned field) and talking to a farmer is because the commercial was made specifically for Iowa?
By the way, where is Hillary’s “element”? Do they need to shoot her next commercial in the waiting room of an abortion clinic?
Ahh, why bother?
Evinfuilt
The moment Bush won the primary in ’99 I left that party (and probably a bit late.)
Still, I can’t see how any true Liberal or Democrat could vote for Hillary. She’s Repub-lite. She says what people want to hear, and does what her lobbyists want. Its easy to see, and she’s not changing. Gore or her Husband are 100x better, much better.
Myself, I’m praying for Obama or Edwards. If I see Clinton vs Guliani or Romney, I’m taking a plane back home to England. At least there Brown is trying to remove some of his own power instead of trying to become a dictator. Clinton has shown absolutely no sign of giving up the dictatorial powers given to the President over the past 6+ years.
Punchy
Because a reactionary, wingnut R as president/king is perferable to a moderate female Democrat.
yeah, that makes sense
Cassidy
Man…you libs are so friendly and open when talking about POV’s that don’t agree with you. I must have been wrong this whole time. [/sarcasm]
Heaven forbid someone utilize their right to vote for the candidate they want, instead of who you think they should. Next thing you know, it’ll be just like the Reconstruction days, with roving patrols of liberals only allowing the “right” kind of people into the voting booth.
John Cole
Yeah. Because that is what I said.
Welcome back, Slide. now that Rove is gone, I hereby christen you “Turdblossom2.”
Zifnab
I almost never get a straight answer out of this question. Personally, I’ve been of the opinion that she takes too much lobbyist money, she “centerists” positions like Iraq and Healthcare that give only her backers what they want, and she’s far too close to the DLC-“fuck the workers” wing of the Democratic Party. In short, she’s too much like a Republican.
Why do the Republicans hate her? Because she’s married to someone too far down the caste system and she’s got a (D) in front of her name. Oh, and she killed Vince Foster.
Edwards takes a great deal of money from lawyers (gasp! I know, right? It would be like Frist taking money from doctors or Gephart taking money from Unions – completely unexplainable). He and Obama, however, both take in windfalls from small donors. Both of them have experience, both of them have solid Dem credentials, and both of them haven’t done anything I’ve seen to blown out their moral integrity. Why are they any less Presidential material than Dodd, Kuccinich, or (God help us) Nader. Listen, I voted for Nader back in my hayday of idealism when I thought 3rd Parties made up of ex-Consumer Advocates and their half-a-dozen closest friends had a shot at influencing the debate. But this isn’t 2000, with a designated heir to the nomination. And this isn’t 2004, when the most charismatic candidate gets sidelined for being “not electable enough”. We’ve got a solid field of candidates to choose from, and you’ve got to blow off the entire top two tiers because… they’re Democratic Politicians? Why, John, are you being such a total douche about this? Just come out and say it. “I don’t like cause I don’t see myself sitting down and having a beer with her/him.” Enlighten me, because I haven’t seen any other criteria coming out of you.
jh
Reasons why I won’t be voting for Hillary Clinton
A. Voted to authorize the Iraq invasion and STILL cannot bring herself to admit she made a mistake.
B. Seems willing to say anything at anytime to garner support. ANYTHING.
C. Can we have someone NOT named Bush or Clinton in the White House? It’s going on 20 years. Let’s not make it 24.
Edwards and Obama OTOH, would be a breath of sane, competent, fresh air and I would be happy to pull the lever for either of them.
The Republican field isn’t even worth mentioning. They are all nuts and even the “moderate” ones would find themselves beholden to a rather unsavory cabal of interests.
Nevertheless, I am not quite sure what I will do if Hillary gets the nomination. Voting with pride will not be on the menu.
PS,
Can we PLEASE stop having early primaries in backwater states? National Primaries (and publicly funded elections) now!
ThymeZone
I’m just really surprised that Bennett hasn’t commented on the fact that I got up at 3 am to answer him.
You can’t buy that kind of dedication, people.
D. Mason
I definitely can’t speak for our host, but the main reason *I* don’t like Hillary is that having a female candidate in this incredibly important election is silly. I said it. Call me a sexist if you like. I wouldn’t mind having a female President, even Hillary perhaps, but I also have enough sense to know that there are people who would never cast a vote for a female president no matter WHO the alternative is. I just don’t think this particular election, which happens to be pretty critical for the continued livability of the United States, is the right time for this little experiment.
I do see the other side of the coin. We have a better chance of getting the first female President elected when her opponent is completely repugnant to any sane human being. It’s fair logic. It’s also a gamble and in these dangerous times I believe the Dems should be putting up the most electable candidates that they can find.
Cassidy
And that swimmingly with Kerry.
BIRDZILLA
And remmeber the VAST RIGHT-WING CONSPEARACY i think she is delerious
Cassidy
Fixed
capelza
Bleating?
Good grief, I said it was nice to have a owman being an actual serious contender. This is NEW, I like that. Honestly I’d be pleased even if a GOP woman was a serious contender. Sorry, I’ve been voting for President 31 years and this is the first time. I thought I was noting a “postive”, not bitching, er, bleating about sexism.
Was it the “castiron bitch” comment that made you say that?
The “castrating bitch” line, yeah, that WAS sexist.
D. Mason
Kerry is the entire basis for this argument. If any dem anywhere could lose against George Bush jr. in ’04 then just think what can happen when the dems choose a candidate to run against a rep who is not George Bush jr. In ’04 I was pretty sure the dems could put up an aborted fetus in a jar for the win against Bush. Now I have put aside any faith I had in the American people to elect the candidate that is actually best for them.
Half of this country votes with their gut and I’m pretty sure their gut is telling them that tits get in the way of running a country(just like sliding into third!). Also, If you don’t like what their gut has to say about Hitlery you probably don’t want to know what their gut is saying about Osama Obama.
My point is … be real. We live in a chauvinistic nation, like it or don’t. Sure it’s getting better all the time, but this particular election really is pivotal in Americas future. I think this is possibly not the best time for a test of our progressive values.
The Other Steve
That’s because every time Edwards opens his mouth, he’s lying. He’s telling you what you want to hear, not what he actually believes.
Hillary’s problem is different. She’s afraid to tell you what you want to hear, and she’s afraid to tell us what she believes. So she’s purposefully vague.
That’s what you don’t like about Hillary.
I just wish Edwards would be honest, and tell us how he would govern. Because what he’s saying now is a hell of a lot different from his Senate record.
The Other Steve
I think you are so oh very wrong on that one.
Look. Everybody who thinks they hate Hillary. Watch the debates.
The evisceral reactions seen here are most certainly undeserved.
Cassidy
I get that. I should have elaborated more, but I was a little busy.
What killed us last time was the picking of “electability” over substance. We picked an issue (military service) that Bush possibly couldn’t stand on, and tried to beat him with that. We lost.
Overall, we need to get away from that electability crap and go back to being the party of the people, instead of the percieved party of fringe beliefs. I would venture to guess that’s Cole’s problems with Edwards. He talks a lot of good talk from the perch he bought with his millions. Now don’t get me wrong, he’s successful and I applaud that, but so far our field of candidates are either 1)politicians, or 2) marginalized because they aren’t “left” enough. As is usual, we’re pissing in our own doghouse.
D. Mason
As best I can tell there is only one candidate that is being honest about how he will vote(when checked against his actual voting record) and that’s Ron Paul. The least likely person to get elected in this whole debacle.
D. Mason
And you think Hillary is a candidate of the people? She’s as fake as they come and the fakeness is only there to hide her elitism. These are qualities that I have come to expect in politicians, but I still acknowledge that it makes them not “of the people”.
ThymeZone
“We” did? What a crock. Kerry picked it as the opening theme of his acceptance speech. “We” had nothing to do with it. The theme lasted about an hour, it was dead on arrival.
Kerry won in a dysfunctional primary system that saw a weak field of candidates and left him as the strongest of that field. The provable fact is that the primary system we have now is a beauty contest run by campaign managers who are chaperoning their girls through a series of bathing suit photo ops and coaching them on their answers to questions all the time. And if you look at the history of this fucked up system, you will see that it has produced a string of self-centered lousy presidents who are the only people we have crazy enough to endure a year-long walk on the runway …. mainly because they crave walking the runway. It’s a fucked arrangement and we are fucked for having it in place. It turns the presidency into the political version of the All Star Baseball game …. a popularity contest. A prolonged, vicious, cutthroat popularity contest that can be rigged by the likes of Karl Rove.
“Perceived party of fringe beliefs?” Are you so lousy at making this crap up that you can’t do better than that? Dem positions now represent the majority on almost all the key isses save the ones that drive the religious nuts on the right. If we are going to make crap up, at least try to stay current.
rawshark
Strange. I thought I had posted a comment in this thread last night. Today its gone. Must not have hit. Hard to believe given how responsive this blog is.
Anyway.
‘Cynical, triangulating, opportunistic bullshit’ isn’t the problem. Why they are being cynical, triangulating, and opportunistic is the problem. You could say that Bill Clinton was cynical, triangulating, and opportunistic but he didn’t use the first Trade Center bombing or the OK City bombing as a means to install a police state. Probably because it wasn’t a party platform.
jh
I will refer you to an excerpt from Hillary’s performance at the New Hampshire
_____________________________________________________
Roger Tilton: I want to know if right here, right now, once and for all and without nuance, you can say that war authorization was a mistake. I, and I think a lot of other primary voters — until we hear you say it, we’re not going to hear all the other great things you are saying.
Sen. Hillary Clinton: Well I have said, and I will repeat it, that knowing what I know now, I never would have voted for it. But I also (applause), I mean obviously you have to weigh everything as you make your decision. I have taken responsibility for my vote. The mistakes were made by this president who misled this country and this Congress into a war that should not have been waged.
_________________________________________________________
She played the old “Bush fooled me” routine.
I’m not buying.
Anyone dumb enough to fall for the bait ‘n switch that led up to the Iraq invasion doesn’t get my vote for president.
Do I think Clinton is actully that dumb?
No, I think she is playing the dumb, “Bush fooled me, but I’m no cut ‘n run li-bah-ral” role.
For that she deserves not one iota of respect.
Cassidy
Absolutely not. I have no intention of voting for her.
And TZ, as usual attacks…not even worth responding to. Just another fringe leftist…
ThymeZone
Bush fooled most people at the time. There is nothing particulary sensible, logical or useful about excluding all of the people he fooled from future leadership.
It’s just a cheap shot, the kind that our politics fosters now. It’s a Rove shot, a Limbaugh shot.
A shot based on an argument that a candidate’s view of the mistake now is disqualifying …. legitimate. I personally tend to downrate the self-serving version (“If I had known then what I know now ….”) against the totally honest version (“My vote was wrong and I regret the mistake.”)
I particularly find the idea that a national leader (someone who holds a federal elected office inside the beltway) would avoid responsibility by saying “he misled me” because the job of a leader at that level is to get the facts, do the due diligence and not be misled. If one guy can mislead the other 500 people then the republic is not working as designed.
That single issue is the main reason I don’t want to vote for Hillary Clinton. She wants to assert that she was misled. I assert that she should be fired for not doing her job. Any member of congress who voted for the war without doing the work and arriving at an independent conclusion should be fired, not promoted. If the member can come along now and say, hey, I got it wrong, it was a mistake, and I regret it, I can live with that. But “he misled me” doesn’t feed the bulldog.
I’d even concede that some members may honestly feel that they were misled, and are not being disingenuous when they say so. That’s nice, and all, but I would stll fire them. In a country of 300 million people surely I can find 500 who can take the time to do the work before casting a vote on a war?
ThymeZone
People all over America are putting down their pencils, coffee cups and keyboards, and holding their heads in thought over that one.
John Cole
One of the things that intrigues me so far is that I am openly supporting Chris Dodd. If he were the Presidential candidate, I would vote for him over ANY of the Republicans, and Chris Dodd is one the most liberal candidates in the race.
In other words, I am willing to vote for a man who I really do not agree with on pretty much anything, but who I think is decent, openly admits his mistakes, and has been right about surveillance and other important issues all along.
I am willing (and even, at this point, enthusiastic) to vote against my personal issues to help drive a stake into the current GOP. What I am not willing to do is to support Hillary and Edwards, who I perceive to be opportunists and spinners and poll-watchers and fakes. Maybe my perception is unfair. Maybe it is inaccurate. I am willing to concede that may be the case with Edwards, much less so with Hillary. My worst nightmare is Hillary in office with all the powers and newfound authority Bush and Cheney have made for themselves. Hell, I have been harping about the possibility of Hillary Clinton as President with all these new powers for the past three years in an attempt (failed) to talk some sense into my fellow Republicans.
Bubblegum Tate
Fuck all you people–I’m voting for Kodos.
tBone
Hmm. I see some people here disagreeing (relatively politely) with John, some more or less agreeing with him, and a few people like Slide who can’t resist peeing in the pool.
Don’t your shoulders get tired from using that broad brush all the time?
Helena Montana
In my life, I voted Democrat, Republican, & then Democrat again (just because the GOP grew so hateful). I would never for for that lying hypocritical pandering shill, Hillary Clinton, in a million years. I would vote for Al Gore, Chris Dodd, John Edwards in that order of preference. There’s not a Republican candidate out there that doesn’t make me want to vomit.
Cassidy
Why is that? She doesn’t represent my beliefs. Some of them, sure, but not the ones I feel are important.
You and I must have different definitions of polite.
Original Lee
The Other Steve: “Hillary’s problem is different. She’s afraid to tell you what you want to hear, and she’s afraid to tell us what she believes. So she’s purposefully vague.”
Hear, hear. I’d rather have a candidate who does, on occasion, say something that hasn’t been focus-grouped to death before he or she says it. She also appears to have developed some respect for our folks in uniform since 9/11, but I think she’s still too chummy with the part of the Democratic Party who think of POCs and union members as “the little people” for my comfort zone.
Punchy
I’d SO vote for an aborted fetus myself. Especially a gay one. I bet he’d swear his oath upon a stack of Tiger Beat magazines and quickly ask Cindy Sheehan to be vice-fetus.
Rick Taylor
“I don’t like Hillary or Edwards because I have had enough cynical, triangulating, opportunistic bullshit for one lifetime, thank you very much. If that upsets you, well, tough. ”
It doesn’t upset me, I’m just trying to understand. One aspect in support of what you’re saying is her shifting stance on the Iraq war. I agree with the hard stance against the President she’s taking now but, *ahem*, uh, Hillary, you’re also responsible for getting us into this mess, that’s part of the picture too. Excuses that the President mislead her (she’s a senator for God’s sake, if I wasn’t mislead, she can’t use that as an excuse; it’s the same excuse Bush uses regarding being mislead by bad intelligence), or that she didn’t expect the President to use the authority she helped to give him (how dumb does she think we are? Almost every opinion maker I listened to said war was inevitable after that vote, and videos of her from a couple weeks before the invasion show that she was supportive of it, even as we lacked UN support) make me respect her even less. As I said, I know I’m not voting for her in the primaries based on that alone. I’m surprised she’s the front runner; supporting an unprovoked war that leads to millions of refugees, hundreds of thousands of casualties, enflames anti-American sentiment in that part of the world, and turns a country into hell-on-earth and a training ground for terrorists ought to carry more of a political penalty.
–Rick Taylor
tBone
Polite disagreement:
Impolite disagreement:
Do you disagree?
Cassidy
Impolite disagreement is an understatement.
jh
I wouldn’t say “most”. I’d say about half the population, not the majority.
Oh I disagree.
We aren’t just talking about people who were misled by a credible, seemingly competent man, we are talking about a person who claims they were fooled by GW BUSH.
I’d have more sympathy for someone claiming that it was PT Barnum or Carelton Sheets who had played them for the fool.
Now you are just being snarky. Calm down TZ, I actually agree with with your points.
If you can’t be bothered to do the due dilligence on something as serious as taking the nation to war, a war being sold by a man like GW Bush no less, then you really should lose your job, not be promoted to the highest office in the land.
Playing the fool; as Hillary Clinton has, to obscure this fact is one order of magnitude worse.
tBone
Bravo. You get the Balloon Juice Hairsplitting & Goalpost Shifting Award for today.
Cassidy
Oh well, I’m so sorry. I’ll just impolitely disagree and call you a great-big-fucking-stupid-moron-idiot. Just some impolite disagreement is all.
demimondian
Oh, come on, tBone. Cassidy’s postings are characteristically bigoted and racist, confused about law, and immune to facts. His approach is consistent — he’s playing the poor beaten-up centrist, and he’s playing it well.
I’m assuming that he’s playing for a response, not stating his real beliefs (or, rather, lack thereof). If so, then his best approach is always to be as frustratingly slimy as possible — it gets the best response.
Sadly, I haven’t been able to rule out the possibility that he’s really as unprincipled as he appears to be. That would be equally consistent with his posting history.
Cassidy
I did state my real beliefs. They are in another thread, I forget which one. Not my fault if you didn’t see it.
And if you want to know who I’m planning on voting for…just ask. So far, I’ve really only stated that I don’t care for Hillary or Edwards. Why is that stance so demonized?
demimondian
It isn’t. I don’t really care what you’d claim it to be. Your posts show you to be one of two things: an unprincipled opportunist or a spoof. Which one? I don’t know and I don’t care; either way, anything you say is untrustworthy.
But good subject change. +5 for the innocent victim pose.
Cassidy
I don’t think you’ve read the whole thread. I’ll wait for you to do that.
Cassidy
This would be a fun one for you to prove. But, being that I’m generally unwilling to go through various posters ranting, i wont expect the same of you.
Funny enough, that’s close to what I’d say about a majority of the posters here, but I’d add intellectually dishonest.
ThymeZone
Yeah, almost 70% were polling in favor of the war in March of 2003 according to CBS News.
The ability to get a simple fact right will help a lot here in establishing credibility.
Pb
The Other Steve,
…and you know this because… what, was he in a Joe Isuzu commercial?
You do realize that as President, he would be representing a somewhat broader constituency, right? In any case, here’s his record, both in the Senate, and what he’s said since. Feel free to point out any contradictions.
tBone
First, you sneeringly addressed “you libs.” When I called you on that, you took issue with my definition of “polite.” When I posted numerous examples of replies that I consider polite disagreement, you ignored them and started quibbling about what I labeled “impolite disagreement.”
Like I said, goalpost shifting and hairsplitting because you don’t have an argument.
BTW, what’s with all the namecalling and anger? You Miller Democrats are full of hatred and bile.
Cassidy
Well I din’t see any conservatives calling John names or treating him like an asshole for not wanting to vote for Hillary.
Those were non-issues. We were talking about the malicious comments thrown John’s way. Why wouldn’t I ignore the others? Are we doing qualifying percentages?
I made my argument earlier and was “attacked”, albeit weakly.
No hatred or bile about it. I was just “impolitely disagreeing” with you, based upon your standard.
jh
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/03/06/opinion/polls/main543034.shtml
You mean this poll?
47% of that same poll said the Bush administration successfuly made its “case for war” and only 45% believed that Iraq was a threat “requiring immediate military action.”
In fact, the 70% support you cite is only in response to the goal of “removing Saddam Hussein from power”.
Who shit in your cornflakes TZ? Jeez.
tBone
We wouldn’t have to if you’d start addressing arguments to individuals instead of “you libs.” This is an easy point you seem unable to grasp. If I were uncharitable I’d assume that’s because you’re either too thick to get it, or you just love trolling.
Apparently sarcasm is wasted on you, too.
Cassidy
Was thinking the exact same thing about you. Creepy isn’t it.
Balloon Drizzle
After seeing John’s awakening regarding the Iraq war and Bush Administration, I’ve made a point to revisit here every month or so to see if he continues to mentally mature. Unsurprisingly, he hasn’t, and Tim continues to produce the only content on this blog that is worth a goddamn.
John recognizes that Republicans have all but destroyed the military and Constitution, but even though he knows damn well that the US is a two party system, he’d through his vote away to Nader rather than vote for Hillary Clinton. Either John is being hyperbolic, or he’s dumber than a box of rocks.
Now, I’m no big fan of Hillary, but I’m smart enough to realize that much of what John hates about her comes from the media’s relentless and often unfair bashing of her for the past 15 years. Much of it probably also comes from John’s many years as a propagandized empty vessel filled up with the drivel of Limbaugh and his many clones.
And, I’m also smart enough to realize that John’s “OMG Hitlery will have the same powers BushCo made for themselves!!!11” is a giant crock of sh!t. Should she be elected president, Hillary will be subject to the same, if not greater level of scrutiny and criticism as was her husband. That fundamentally makes a Hillary presidency much different that a Bush/Cheney presidency. Theoretically, she may posess the same vast powers Bush/Cheney now wield, but should she to to exercise them, the calls for investigations and impeachment will be damn near immediate.
As for John’s dislike of Edwards, which he seems unable to seriously qualify, I’d venture that it comes from much of the same residual propaganda that Cole’s got floating around upstairs. He’s got a hairtrigger for supposed Democratic hypocracy, but he himself is still taking paychecks from PJs Media and carefully outsourcing serious criticism of Roger, Chuckles, the Perfessor and the rest of the PJs honchos to Tim, if featuring it here at all (search for yourselves if you don’t believe me). “But John Edwards is rich and campaigns for the poor!!!!11 What a phony!!!1”
Or, maybe John Cole just really doesn’t like poor people. After all, he does still consider himself a conservative.
John Cole
Best thing about a blog- being flamed for a vote you have not even cast yet and won’t for 14 months by anonymous douchebags who, by their own admission, only stop by once every three months, and then only to give you shit.
Balloon Drizzle
“Wahhhh! I’m such a victim,” cries the two term Bush supporter/enabler/apologist. Tell that to the maimed vets, dead Iraqis and the city of New Orleans you whiner.
That’s John, still acting like a wingnut. He’s unable to justify his positions beyond, “I don’t like these opportunistic politicians, but these I think are ok despite the fact that two years ago I was calling them traitors.” Then, when people call him on it, well, they’re just being uncivil or (gasp) anonymous, so he is justified in responding with empty ad hominems.
John Cole
Yeah. That is the sum total of my remarks.
Moron.
moondancer
The one democratic candidate that gives gop hope is hillary. They cant beat any of the others. Her negatives will energize their base, but more importantly she scares off a huge portion of independents.
Now the dems are in a good place to win, but certainly not a lock. I am a life long dem (handed out buttons for LBJ in 64 as a kid). But I have Clinton fatigue… and wonk fatigue. I want charisma, leadership and boldness.
Nobody who accepted a fund raising dinner from Rupert Murdoch will get my vote, period.
Balloon Drizzle
Sure, John. Here’s the ‘serious’ explanations you’ve provided in these comments:
I believe that my summary of your explanations is quite accurate. I mean, isn’t ‘cynical, opportunistic politician’ a bit of a redundancy? Hasn’t Edwards “been right about surveillance and other important issues [the war, for one] all along”? And isn’t the statement, “I might be persuaded to even vote for Hillary and Edwards depending on the how awful the GOP is,” all but a mea culpa for your original post when one considers that the viable Republican candidates are currently stumbling all over themselves in an attempt to establish their manliness through their support of torture?
Anyways, I apologize for saying that you called Chris Dodd a traitor. I see no evidence of that in your archives, though you did try to compare his statements to those of Trent Lott (while linking to Fox News, the Washington Times and Protein Wisdom), spoke about how you ‘often vilify’ him, tried to make funny about starving children at his expense, etc.
Whatever. Even though you were a Bush supporter for two elections and are apparently unable to parse and comprehend your own writing, I’m sure that I’ll still be the ‘moron.’
Aaron
John,
Sorry about my comment above. Here, it’s fixed:
Gus
Jimmm
Actually it would be “Oakeshottian” or “Burkean” more than Lockean. That fucking annoys me about Sully. And I actually kind of like him.