Saddam has been executed:
Saddam Hussein, the dictator who led Iraq through three decades of brutality, war and bombast before American forces chased him from his capital city and captured him in a filthy pit near his hometown, was hanged just before dawn Saturday during the morning call to prayer.
The final stages for Mr. Hussein, 69, came with terrible swiftness after he lost the appeal, five days ago, of his death sentence for the killings of 148 men and boys in the northern town of Dujail in 1982. He had received the sentence less than two months before from a special court set up to judge his reign as the almost unchallenged dictator of Iraq.
His execution at 6:10 a.m. was announced on state-run Iraqiya television. Witnesses said 14 Iraqi officials attended the hanging, at the former military intelligence building in northern Baghdad, now part of an American base. Those in the room said that Mr. Hussein was dressed entirely in black and carrying a Koran and that he was compliant as the noose was draped around his neck.
It is now just a matter of time before the pictures and videos are splashed over the airwaves, and currently the execution porn is in full effect on the cable news networks. While justice was served with the death of Saddam, it is hard to not feel like this is little more than revenge, in some regards. Perhaps it was the issuance of a Saddam invented red card to the condemned that really set the tone.
Contrary to what some may think from my previous post, I will shed no tears for Saddam. If ever there was a deserving candidate for execution, it was Hussein. I just oppose the death penalty on principle, and find it to be barbaric and wrong- even if the legal system allows it and others believe it accomplishes something. My opposition to the death penalty is not based upon my love for those who have earned it, but to the practice of execution in and of itself. That really shouldn’t be as difficult to understand as some of you have made it.
At any rate, I hope the end of Hussein will bring some calm to the region, as some calm and a cessation of violence is desparately needed. CNN is reporting that there are pockets of celebratory gunfire. I don’t know if that is accurate, or if their reporters just heard the gunfire that killed two more of our soldiers today.
*** Update ***
I guess I still haven’t made myself clear, although there is the good possibility I don’t really have a very clear position:
Surfing the ‘net today in the aftermath of the Saddam hanging I see the usual suspects decrying the the dictator’s execution in the predictable manners (Hello, Robert Scheer). What interests me more are the objections of capital punishment purists, because I can sympathize with their position. But I think their orthodox views are misguided in this instance. They may even have been blinded by a form of narcissism, by wanting to be considered “good.”
I almost always oppose capital punishment for the usual moral and practical reasons…
I dont think it is a form of narcissism- I just oppose the death penalty on principle (principles I have discussed numerous times). I see no purpose to it in general, and in this specific case, the way it was meted out, in such an inflammatory manner replete with the death card created by Hussein himself during his days of murder, it seems even less useful.
So, no matter who is to be executed, I generally do not support it. In this case, I loathed the convicted, which may be leading to some of the confusion regarding my position. I really don’t care if Saddam ever had another breath, and it is very difficult to oppose the death penalty for someone like him. I am in a hard place at the moment- I would have a difficult time getting worked up if Shia mobs had sprung Saddam out of jail and hanged him themselves, so it is difficult for me to object to Saddam’s execution. Again, with Saddam, I feel much like I did with the execution of Tookie Williams:
I have a lot of reasons why I dislike and oppose the death penalty, and not one of them has to do with a concern for the fate of guilty men. I dislike the death penalty because it is irreversible, it is arbitrary, it is seemingly enforced in a haphazard manner, it seems to be more about race and class than guilt, it does not seem to prevent crime, and because I see no need to have a system that could kill one innocent man when we could keep them all imprisoned and avoid that risk.
Like I said- my opposition to the death penalty is not based on guilty men dying, and that is what Tookie Williams is. He probably had a hand in far more than just the four murders for which he will be executed, is responsible for who knows how many deaths and how much violence with the formation of the Crips (and some believe he was involved with them well after his incarceration), and I really feel little to no sympathy for him.
Regardless, my objection to the death penalty is not based on a case by case basis- if that were so, I would not object to the death penalty, just the death penalty for some. Perhaps that is a purism of sorts. At any rate, it makes sense to me- I have managed to work out any internal contradictions satisfactorily enough that I can state that I loatehd Hussein, will not miss him, think the world is a better place off without him, but I can still despise the manner by which he was dispatched. I can also understand the arguments made for executing scum like Hussein- I just don’t think it is necessary. I hope that makes sense.
craigie
This seems like more small-minded behavior from the League of Small Minded Men. I await the video of Bush washing his hands in Saddam’s blood. Or maybe Mel Gibson has the video rights.
Doug H
Let’s see… nope, no tears here. Even as someone else who’s against the death penalty, I can’t help but to say ‘Good riddance’.
Still, I get the feeling that we missed an opportunity here. That somewhere down the road we’ll regret making Hussein a martyr, instead of throwing him in some cell in the Netherlands where he’d die lonely and forgotten. (See: Milosovic, Slobodan)
Salty Party Snax
So now the Sunnis have their martyr, and al Qaeda an exciting new talking point to help them further rally the anti-Shi’a resistance.
Cowboy George’s frontier justice takes us yet another step down the road to complete disaster in Iraq.
Dave
I as well am glad that he’s gone. I just wonder what problem it solves? Really he’s yesterday’s news.
I also went back and looked at the highlights of UN resolution 1441, I don’t see where we were give permission to remove Saddam…hmmm…WMDs sure…especially the non-existant ones.
PeterJ
Prediction:
Michelle Malkin will put the video of the hanging on YouTube then when YouTube removes it (and the 1000 other copies), she’ll write 200 posts about how YouTube is run by terrorists wanting the US to be taken over by islamofacists.
PeterJ
I guess Kerry might want to thank the Iraqis for hanging Saddam since obviously with all the ‘Saddam is dead’ cheering by the rightwing loonies there will no place left for any bogus ‘No one wants to eat with Kerry’ posts…
Chuck Butcher
I disapprove of capital punishment on a couple basis, it assumes omnipotence in the legal system and it spreads the responsibility for the slaughter of a helpless human too widely. If the US is going to continue this barbarous practice then we need to quit sterilizing it with more and more prettification like lethal injection. Put it in the public square and bring back the guillotine, that by god is quick, final, and satisfyingly bloody.
Otto Man
I’m not a supporter of the death penalty either, but I am looking forward to Saddam’s tearful reunion with his ex-lover Satan. Have fun, kids.
GOP4Me et al
I couldn’t agree more, John. The death penalty is an act of the supreme hypocrisy of authoritarianism, a pandering to the lynch-mob vigilantism of the masses, an affront to the ideas of redemption and rehabilitation, and a remorseless process of systematic murder far colder and less humane than any crime committed by well over 99% of its victims. I oppose it on every level from the practical to the theological, and feel that despite our shared sentiment that Saddam was an abhorrent, horrible murderer, no benefit to anyone will be derived by his demise. His victims have not returned to life as a result of his victimization, and we’ve provided our enemies with a high-profile martyr whose name they will use to justify continued crimes and acts of bloodshed against us. Saddam’s supporters, the Sunnis, will attack us with even greater ferocity; Saddam’s opponents, the Shiites, will reward our murder of their foe with a genocide against the Sunnis committed on our watch and under our responsibility (if not our complicity- yet).
Before George Bush pats himself on the back for another state-sanctioned murder well done, he should consider that his incompetence and ineptitude may yet result in nearly as many Iraqi deaths as those suffered under the reign of his father’s would-be assassin.
Silly Housewife
Well I could just sit back and say good riddance, but look back to 9/11. Dubya was adamant he’ll find Osama bin Laden, whose al-Qaida network claimed responsibility for the attacks. Somewhere along the line, he got sidetracked, abandoned his search for bin Laden, then got America up in a frenzy to try and overthrow the “evil” Saddam Hussein with his non-existing WMDs. Then you know what went on from there.
Eural
This event just seems to open so many doors on the darker aspects of human perception. My true blue patriot friends are crowing to high heaven (as are many rightwing sites) and yet they have – literally – no idea what he was executed for.
Saddam was a bad man who deserved to be punished but where was the outrage when he actually killed those men in 1982? Or in 1983 when Rumsfeld met him as an liason for the pro-Saddam Reagan administration? When he was convenient to us he was a bulwark against the Soviets and Iran’s theocracy. When he ceased to be he became an evil man on par with Hitler.
I find it a little scary and Orwellian to note that many Americans have not missed a beat in converting a former minor ally into one of the most evil thugs of the 20th century. Or that they can completely erase our culpibility in supporting the Ba’ath Party and Saddam’s terror-regime. He was a bad man who got what he deserved but he was just the symptom of a much deeper disease which is alive and well in the human psyche today.
Oh, yeah – thank God that at last we have our justice for 9/11.
Joe1347
It’s interesting how thrilled the conservative republicans are with being international policemen that bring foreign super-villians to Justice. I thought that the international policemen role (for the USA) was sneered at during the Clinton Admin by the Republicans? But possibly my memory isn’t accurate in this case.
Sadaam certainly deserved to die. But as a Fiscally responsible type, was it worth $1+ Trillion US Dollars? Couldn’t the money have been better spent or not spent?
Digital Amish
I guess I’m a flip flopper re. the death penalty. The finality of the punishment and the potential for error of any justice system should cause any rational being to have reservations. That said, often my reaction is ‘good riddance’. Saddam merits that reaction.
But his death is not worth any one of the 3000 American deaths that have paid for this.
The Other Steve
Ding Dong! The Witch is dead. Which old Witch? The Wicked Witch!
Ding Dong! The Wicked Witch is dead.
Wake up – sleepy head, rub your eyes, get out of bed.
Wake up, the Wicked Witch is dead. She’s gone where the goblins go,
Below – below – below. Yo-ho, let’s open up and sing and ring the bells out.
Ding Dong’ the merry-oh, sing it high, sing it low.
Let them know
The Wicked Witch is dead!
Ted
Couldn’t agree more. It’s a very libertarian position to take, and a good one. Some people may deserve death as a punishment for their crimes (as subjective as that judgment is), but human government can never be trusted to mete it out without error or prejudice.
ThymeZone
What John and Ted said.
edmund dantes
I always loved the irony or hypocrisy or whatever you want to call it of Saddam being tried and convicted for war crimes or crimes against the Iraqi people when he was our ally and we supported him. The best part is knowing right now we are repeating the same cycle with several other regimes around the world that we are buttressing up because they are smart enough to realize it’s a good time to be on our side.
Then again, I’ve always had a dark sense of humor.
George in the tornado bunker
Hey, you know what Laura just told me? There are two kinds of Muslims. There are the Sunny ones. They must be the happy ones. And then there’s another kind. The Secret Service guy is gonna tell me when it’s okay to ride the bike back to the ranch house.
I bet now that we’ve, er, the Iraqi people have killed Saddam that things’ll settle down over there.
Bithead
His death was anti-climatic; something that we all knew was going to happen the moment they dragged his butt out of that rabbit hole, three years ago.
At the same time, while the international channels (including some shortwave radio channels I’ve sampled this morning….) are showing Iraqis celebrating this animal’s death, the usual leftists suspects in the news media here in the United States have been muted on the point. Apparently, Iraqis being happy and free of a tyrant, is a set of conditions that the left end of the news media would rather not report. Might make President Bush, and with him, America, look good.
One final point;
An awful lot of time and spit has been wasted on whether or not the death of Saddam Hussein is going to ‘change Iraq’. The usual suspects are chanting the usual mantra about how his death isn’t going to change Iraq for the better. I see these efforts as misguided; Iraq was changed the moment he was deposed… and secondarily the moment he was captured. His death at the hands of his own people, as I have suggested, was a foregone conclusion, once THOSE events took place. The question that our press here should be asking is” “What would be different had he remained alive?”
For my part, I suggest that Iraq would have been a more violent place. Both from people angry that justice had not been served, and from people seeking his reinstatement as dictator for life. Both of those situations will not now happen, and I can’t say that I’m unhappy about that.
Salty Party Snax
Sometimes and handshake is just that, a handshake. Nothing more or less.
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/Rumsfeld-Hussein.jpg
But a kiss? Ahh, there is something divine in that!
http://www.leftflex.com/bushwar/bushwar.images/bush_saudi_ani01.gif
Zifnab
Oh good. We can’t have an execution without some follow-up. It’s comforting to know that Saddam will not have died alone, but get to make the trip down the river Styx flanked by his countrymen and ours. A fitting send-off.
Yeah, this was oh-so-worth $300 billion dollars, 2939 dead soldiers, and 22401 maimed servicemen. I’m sure your daddy is super proud of you George.
D. Mason
I figured out what your deal is John. You’re sore that they executed saddam before you and your liberal buddies could elect him President in ’08.
/spoof
chopper
his death was anticlimatic; it’s like watching al capone go down for tax evasion. i mean, he was executed for having tortured/killed a buncha people in a shiite town after dudes in that town tried to assassinate him. or so the story goes.
i mean, with all the nasty stuff the guy has done, freaking out after an assassination attempt and killing a buncha dudes is kinda low on the list.
i guess that’s all they could pin on him. dunno. but it is kinda weird that the stuff he was executed for happened during our support of the guy. like it was okay then, but not okay now.
either way, he’s dead and good riddance.
PeterJ
Now with both Saddam Hussein and Abu Musab al-Zarqawi dead, who is going to be the next bad guy that isn’t Osama bin Laden? Or is that place already taken by Mahmoud Ahmadinejad?
Tony J
It’s been said here and on a lot of other blogs, but it’s worth underlining how very pathetically trivial Saddam’s Last Dance has turned out to be. ‘Trial of the Century’, my rosy-pink arse. Wasn’t this supposed to be a stirring spectacle of the rule-of-law? One that would unite all Iraqis in rejection of the callous brutality of Saddam’s reign by putting the tyrant in the dock where his various crimes would be mercilessly exposed? Justice not only done but more importantly seen to be done?
Instead? We get a Shia puppet-government so weak and divided that it can’t extend its authority beyond the Green Zone of Baghdad, turning what was supposed to be an event of national reconciliation into a statement of religious sectarianism. They rushed to execute Saddam on a day that, in the Sunni calender (but not that of the Shia, which starts a day later) marks the start of the Eid al-Adha festival, otherwise known as the ‘Holy Day of Sacrifice’. Iraqi law forbids executions on religious holidays, so by hanging Saddam on Saturday, the Iraqi government deliberately spat in the collective faces of the country’s Sunni minority. And just to make sure no one missed the symbolism, we have the Iraqi national security adviser Mouwafak al-Rubaie saying that
That’s right, sunbeam. You deliberately offend the whole Sunni world, you throw fuel on the fire of civil-war, you turn a secular scumbag like Saddam into a faux-religious martyr, and you ensure that the Kurds never get to try their bete-noir for that little Halabja thing, all so that you can throw red meat to the Shia militias that make up your base.
And they say Iraqis can’t learn to operate like modern, western governments. Piffle. This one is straight out of the White House playbook. Which, if anything, just makes it even more pathetic.
PeterJ
And about the death penalty, there are times when people are forced to kill other people, such as wars, and in some cases when you or someone else is attacked and threatened. But it’s morally repugnant to kill someone that’s in your custody and poses no threat anymore. And it’s even more repugnant to first put them on death row for 10-20 years and then execute them.
Darrell
I don’t get the “less humane” part. In most instances of capital punishment, the punishee who faces capital punishment had murdered his/her victims in horrific fashion, with no regards for their suffering or terror.
Those executed through capital punishment suffer a faster, more humane death than their victims ever had.
Ironically, GOP4Me likes to mock conservatives.. but on the rare occassions he reveals his own views, his beliefs are far more extreme and outlandish than those of any conservative he has ridiculed.. that’s why you see him actually assert with a straight face that the capital punishment faced by violent murderers and child killers, is “far worse” than what they did to their victims. Unbelievable really..
Darrell
John Cole has been consistent in his opposition to the death penalty.. but so much of the carping and whining and snarking over Saddam’s “sham” execution from the left is sickening. “He didn’t get a fair trial!”
ThymeZone
Why does John Cole write a serious post and then let Darrell walk in and shit on the thread?
If Darrell stays, the rest of this thread is about Darrell.
Explanation? Anyone?
Big Pimpin'
Darrell – You’re taking a strangely narrow view here. The criticism of the way Saddam was tried and later executed stems from a fear that the effects of this act will only exacerbate an already disastrous situation in the Middle East. Notice any dancing in the streets of Islamabad? Damascus? Riyadh? Cairo? Istanbul?
Nope. Only in places with religious ties to Tehran.
But look, if you really need to reduce things to a simplistic good vs. evil, black/white, George W. Bush-style view of the situation in the Middle East, why don’t you go crank yourself up some John Wayne movies? Pop yourself some corn, crack open a six, strap on your toy guns and shoot first – ask questions later?
Because that’s the way things are in the fantasy world of the Right these days.
PeterJ
The Senator uttered:
Saddam was guilty and should have served life in prison. That doesn’t mean that you should put up a show trial and be done with it. A fair trial where he would have been tried for all his crimes might have helped the nation to heal, this one won’t.
Ted
That’s pretty much a given, isn’t it? This thread will now reach 200+ posts because of Darrell..
Darrell
I think it’s a mixed bag. It’s a safe bet that many/most Kuwaitis, Israelis and Iranians are glad to see him executed. And no, as evidenced by my link (and hundreds of similar comments and blog posts from leftists) that their objections were not in fact rooted out of concern for stability in the middle east, but instead an opportunity to take cheap shots at President Bush or whine over the injustice of Saddam’s trial.
Perhaps TimF or John Cole have access to archive search tools. If so, it would be interesting to see the percentage of posts from “Ted” which are nothing but 100% personal attacks on me. I feel confident that the percentage would be north of 98%, as Ted is such an obsessed halfwit, he can’t seem post about anything else.
Big Pimpin'
Darrell – So THAT is what this all about? You’re sensitive about being insulted?
Damn. Didn’t your mother warn you about the internet?
Darrell
Ah yes, just a “show trial”, a sham..
Repeat after me – ‘Justice delayed is justice denied’
Darrell
Has it occurred to you that Saddam’s existence, including endless courtroom ‘pontifications’ from him if he was given US-style justice with years of appeals, would also serve as a rally point for Baathist/Sunni insurgents?
demimondian
Oh, so I see that Darrell likes pie. Hey, Darrell, why don’t you go do something worthwhile? Counting polar bears in northern Québec comes to mind.
Big Pimpin'
Robt Fisk: A Dictator Created Then Destroyed By America
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/article2112555.ece
Must reading.
CaseyL
You know, the threat can’t get ‘jacked without cooperation from other commenters. Just sayin’.
I’m wondering what happens to all the other massacres Saddam was accused of. Do they still get investigated? Are there still defendants left to try?
I have no idea why the execution couldn’t wait. Is it true that the Iraqi Constitution forbids executing someone over a certain age, and that Saddam was about to reach that age? Even if that is true, it seems to me that if trying Saddam was about justice, rather than revenge, justice would have been better served to try him on all charges and then sentence him to life-without-parole. It’s not like he was going to re-offend, since it was unlikely he’d ever be set free.
If the other charges for the other massacres just “go away” now, the trial wasn’t about justice even a little bit, because there were other people who committed those crimes besides Saddam. Do they get a free pass? Don’t their victims, and the families of their victims, deserve a day in court, too?
KC
Like everyone else, I think Saddam deserved justice and has now had it. That said, was this really smart in terms of the war? It feels pretty much like a pre-State of the Union ace card for the President to hold aloft. It’s not as if we haven’t seen this before either. Short term political gain, long term real pain, it just doesn’t matter to this president. How would Americans have felt during the civil war if Britain had invaded, taken virtual sides with the North, and hung Jefferson Davis in what was a political as opposed to a real judicial process? Then, imagine if during a major state speech, the Prime Minister discussed Davis’s hanging as a step towards victory?
Would hostilities have increased or decreased?
I know it’s not an exact analogy, but I think it is something we should consider before hanging on to another anomolous “victory” step.
demimondian
No, Casey, the reason that was put out — and which makes sense — is that Eid is coming up (for Shia) or has arrived (for Sunni). (I’m repeating what TonyJ said upthread, but the _Seattle Times_ also had the analysis independently this morning.) I find that plausible, particularly given the slap in the face it constitutes to the Sunni.
TenguPhule
I have $10 down on ‘Saddam’s Death won’t make a real difference in Iraq’.
If there was any less credible way for Saddam to face justice, I can’t really imagine it. The appearance if not the actual intent to push it along before a full accounting could be made is going to reflect badly on the US for years to come.
Darrell
That some of you would find that to be a ‘valid’ analogy to Iraq demonstrates how far gone you truly are. The US, prior to and during the civil war was a democracy. Whatever screwups we made in Iraq, the fact is we toppled a mass murdering oppressive dictator.. to compare our toppling of an oppressive blood soaked despot like Saddam to a hypothetical with the British interfering in the US civil war is unbelievably f*cked up.
Darrell
Another ‘must read’ from the same Robt Fisk:
ThymeZone
The prestigious Darrell Lecture Series on Middle Eastern Affairs is filling up. Reserve your seat now for these remarkable lecture sessions:
— Darrell’s MidEast Policy Primer Parts I, II, and III
— Darrell’s Guide to the War on Terror
— Darrell’s New Interpretation Series featuring
—— the Bible
—— the Koran
—— The Constitution
—— The Houston Municipal Building Code
—— Barbecque and Cole Slaw, A Marriage Made in Heaven
Call today and reserve your seat for these outstanding lectures by the renowned Darrell, stupidest redneck ever to sell a lecture ticket in the Southwest.
Reserve your seats today and receive this terrific Audio Book: “Who Gives a Flying Fuck What Darrell Thinks?” by the Mormon Tabernacle Choir (a capella).
Bithead
Life in prison?
Given that he could be back in power with a simple shift of political and military fortune, this seems a singularly stupid thing to suggest.
TenguPhule
That’s right Darrell, just relax. When you tense up, Hillary’s Stormtroopers have to use more lube.
CaseyL
Demi, I’ve heard that too, about the execution being timed as a slap at the Sunni.
That’s such a lunatic reason, though. I mean, it makes it crystal clear to the Sunni that there’s no point in even trying to participate in the political system. The central government might as well have explicitly said “OK, keep the civil war going, because that’s the only way you can win anything.”
demimondian
Oh, thou genius, endowed as with the wisdom of the ages. Truly, I grovel at the feet of such as you, who know The Lord’s Mind and revel in bringing it down to us, the many, the lowly. Oh, thou great Prophet, speak!
Tell of the simple shift that would bring Hussein back to power. Go thou into the Sunni triangle, and show, with what armaments would the Sunni once again reign supreme in Baghdad? Preach, oh great one: how they would be taken back from the Shia who now control them? Tell us how they will fund such an effort, now that the Kurds control the northern Iraqi oil supplies?
Oh, great Prophet, teach me!
demimondian
I agree that it is inane — but it does explain the Iragqi government’s behavior. It’s sort of Holmesian: “when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, is the truth”. I haven’t heard any other explanation which makes sense.
More than that, whether that was the message intended, I can’t see but how it will be the message *received*. The government either meant to say “see, we don’t care what you think” or “see, we don’t care what you think, even enough to find out if this action will be insulting.” I don’t see how the second is a whole lot better than the first.
SeesThroughIt
Well, clearly. The only question is: How quickly does all this go down? I say two days.
Also, what John said about the death penalty.
Dana
I think they just did him a favor. He would have suffered more spending the rest of his life in jail. Capital punishment is not very good revenge.
Equal Opportunity Cynic
I generally agree with John — I can accept the DP a bit more in theory, but not so much in practice. But I think it’s sad how Digby and commenters have gone totally off the deep end, labeling the execution as a “lynching”. At least Digby’s application of the term was implicit, albeit unmistakable.
Though I’m conservative, one of the appealing traits of the Left is its grasp of nuance. The Right has blowhards like Limbaugh and Hannity spouting about how anyone who disagrees should be tried for treason. The Left has NPR, trying hard to present every side of every issue.
But at times it seems that hatred for Bush has galvanized parts of the Left to the point of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I mean, I’m not convinced Saddam’s execution was necessarily a good thing on balance, but it’s certainly not a lynching. To call it such waters down the term, diminshing our capacity to grasp the evil of real lynching.
Oh, wait, I have “a small limited mind.”
Equal Opportunity Cynic
Correction: That’s not Digby’s entry making the implicit comparison by talking about a 1930s lynching on this of all days, but it is an entry in his blog.
Krista
I’m guessing there will be action by the end of this evening.
Personally, I agree with what DougH (any relation to DougJ?) said:
KC
Darrell is so right. It’s good to know that this adminsitration can even screw up an execution, something that I figured they’d be expert at.
Tsulagi
I was fine with Saddam being tried and executed by Iraqis. It’s a fate he earned and deserved. No tears that he’s gone. But in this Mother of all FUBARs in Iraq, it seems a little of that magic just had to also be present for his execution.
No authority on Muslim holy observances, but as I understand Eid is a Xmas like holiday of gift giving lasting for three days. So yeah, though Islamic custom is not to execute people on holidays, make sure you execute the bastard on the start of Eid for Sunnis but not Shia. Sort of a in your face your faith doesn’t count sort of thing. That’s the spirit for a new way forward.
Saw one segment on CNN. Masked guards in different colored jackets were preparing Saddam to be hanged. The guy was a sonofabitch, but the process just had the look of a state sanctioned lynching by those more fearful and weaker than the lynchee. The CNN reporter said one guard yelled out during this process “Love live Moqtada al-Sadr!” Just fucking great.
Seems like our admin has been a real model for Maliki and his admin. All that was really missing to make it complete was afterwards Maliki grabbing his crotch and telling the Sunni to “Bring it on!”
Bithead
I tend to doubt that anyone can.
You’re not honestly going to tell me you don’t think there
arewere a number of people out there that are quite willing and able to spring up and fight for Saddam’s reinstatement, are you?ThymeZone
Well, part of the upcoming Darrell Lecture Series is all about the fact that Iraq is a solid, disciplined country that would be ready now for democracy if only our liberal media would get out the way and let it happen.
I just wonder why the executioners didn’t just lop off his head and be done with it. That’s the standard behavior over there, isn’t it? And really, with any luck, it will become the standard here too.
Public beheadings would go a long way to restoring law and order in this country.
PeterJ
The only one who would have been able to reinstate Saddam (and I doubt that even he would have been able to), would have been the US president. But that would also mean that he would have had to be given a huge amount of weapons and be allowed to do whatever he wanted against the Iraqi people. Fat chance for that.
If, by any chance, someone else had tried, then Saddam would have been dead within a week. Do you really think that any US president would have allowed him to come back to power without their permission? The humilation if Saddam was back in power would have been gigantic. And don’t come with any crap about Democrats loving Saddam.
Zifnab
Alright, you win. What’s the name of that Troll Blocking patch for Firefox everyone keeps talking about?
Tsulagi
Little oops,
Fixed
Zifnab
Krista:
NYT:
Kinda like a twenty-one gun salute.
I doubt you’ll see an escalation of violence in Iraq. At least, I doubt you’ll see an escalation of violence that will exceed what would have happened anyway. We’re staring at a Civil War and the sitting Maliki Gov’t has once again thrown poo in the eyes of its Sunni minority. I’m sure Saddam’s execution will also inspire the Al-Sadr wing of the Iraqi government to declare more of its death squads and random assaults as sanctioned by the gov’t. After all, Saddam was a bastard, Joe Blow the Sunni down the street was a bastard, so they both deserve to die.
This probably won’t make the fire burn brighter, just longer. Got to hand it to El Presidentie Bush. He knows how to burn his bridges.
The Other Steve
Well, I agree it’s not like a real lynching. I mean that would have been my mussolini hanging from a lamp post dream.
But as I said in the other thread, it’s a bit like the Bolsheviks killing the Romanovs. It’s a sign of weakness.
In a way, I guess I don’t blame them. If they’d kept him in an Iraq prison there’s a strong likelihood that a government collapse would result in his freedom. This way they make sure to get rid of him once and for all, whatever happens to themselves.
But it is a sad recognition that the Iraq government is not in control of Iraq.
Libby Spencer
It makes perfect sense to me John. That’s pretty much the way I feel about it, except my thoughts are even darker on how the death penalty diminishes our humanity in general and how this particular act of barbaric revenge was really rushed through so he couldn’t be tried for greater crimes in which the US was in some degree complicit by their support of the regime at the time.
ThymeZone
Just a little dose of real from Justin Raimondo which I thought went well with this weekend’s festivities.
While we ignore the services for a good man and president on our own soil, and wonder at the trashing of him by the right wing which inherited his party but not his good judgement, intelligence or poise, and watch the hyenas on the right barking over the theatrical and third-world-looking execution of Saddam …. a few words on the subject of American foreign policy from a constant and generally accurate critic.
Note: This material WILL NOT be included in the upcoming and eagerly-awaited Darrell Lecture Series and Fart Lighting Contest.
demimondian
Oh, great Prophet, why would you, who know so much, need an answer from one as feeble as me? Surely, you must have known that there were such people, since you wrote:
originally.
Oh, thou who knows all, sees all, as did the Great Carmack, help me understand why having people to fight for something guarantees that the shift to reestablish Sunni dominion would be “simple”. Truly, I do not ask much, oh thou worthy of worship, thou to whom such things must be clear.
ThymeZone
Here’s another Cole that Darrell won’t be highlighting on his upcoming Darrell Lecture Series.
Amazing how five minutes of this material is worth more than a whole week of Darrell’s intellectual diarrhea on the blog.
Doug H
any relation to DougJ
Nah, I’ve been around under various nom de plumes, but I finally decided to partially come out from the commenting closet.
Given that he could be back in power with a simple shift of political and military fortune, this seems a singularly stupid thing to suggest.
Jonah Goldberg did advocate putting a Pinochet in charge of Iraq, and who better to fit that bill than the late Butcher of Baghdad. Maybe Maliki had to kill Hussein before Cheney got any crazy ideas of putting him back in power?
demimondian
I don’t have a moral objection to the death penalty. For what it’s worth, withdrawal of fluids for an person in the last stages of death, and I certainly didn’t feel any qualms when a member of my family agreed to allow them to be withheld from his companion of many years earlier this year.
My objection is unprincipled: I don’t see any real value to the death penalty. It’s expensive, risky, and, ultimately, quick and painless. There are far more effective ways to express our collective disdain for someone’s actions. Why bother to give a thug the extra attention? Throw them in a box, and let them rot. They aren’t worth the discomfort they cause, so…why bother?
Bithead
(Shrug) One suggestion of many; Ever hear of nuclear weapons?
As to the rest, look again at what I said earlier… the part you apparently skimmed over:
The usual suspects are chanting the usual mantra about how his death isn’t going to change Iraq for the better. I see these efforts as misguided; Iraq was changed the moment he was deposed… and secondarily the moment he was captured. His death at the hands of his own people, as I have suggested, was a foregone conclusion, once THOSE events took place. The question that our press here should be asking is” “What would be different had he remained alive?”
For my part, I suggest that Iraq would have been a more violent place. Both from people angry that justice had not been served, and from people seeking his reinstatement as dictator for life. Both of those situations will not now happen, and I can’t say that I’m unhappy about that.
If ONE human life is saved by this animal’s death, it’s worth it.
Perry Como
We’ve turned a corner in Iraq.
demimondian
Oh, great prophet, whose wisdom is as the light in the morning, why would you ask a question such as this of one as lowly as me:
Why, yes, I have, oh great one, and it shows the great insight that you must have to know that I know what I do. Truly, you are wise and great.
As you who know so much know, however, I know very well indeed that the construction of a nuclear device is a far-from-simple thing, and is not one which a dispossessed and impoverished people would be able to effect without the aid of a government. So, since that’s impossible, oh great one, I conclude that you are joking with me.
You *will* have your little joke, won’t you, my Lord? Hahaha. Very funny, oh great Prophet — it shows your greatness that you will deign to share your laughter, as well as your wisdom.
Oh great one, do not disappoint your supplicant. Please, enlightened one, do me the boon of giving me a serious answer to my question.
Perry Como
Has anyone heard about the status of school painting in Iraq? The dearth of information leads me to believe there’s a Mainstream Media(TM) conspiracy actively covering up our school painting accomplishments.
ThymeZone
Watching the Ford proceedings at the Capitol ….
You know, despite the best efforts of the present embarassing and pathetic excuse for a government that we have right now, this is still a damned impressive and great country. Compare and contrast this evening’s proceedings with the grotesque and third-world events of last night in Iraq, and consider yourself damned lucky to be an American.
RIP Gerald Ford, a guy whose shoes could not be shined by the present residents of the big buildings in Washington, D.C.
Zifnab
Thank god Saddam is dead. We have this to look forward to every day from now until ’09 when we can pull out our troops and send home our reports and start treating Iraq like Darfur.
CaseyL
There are specific and limited cases in which I would support a death penalty in the US: for mass murder, serial murder, or torture; AND if the offender is certain to re-offend if s/he ever gets out of prison; AND if there’s any chance s/he will get out of prison.
I’m not sure how many people actually fit those criteria. People convicted of those kinds of crimes aren’t supposed to ever be released (even if they’re found insane; they’re confined to institutions). Ted Bundy, for sure: he was not only a serial torturer/murderer, but also an escape artist.
Those are the only circumstances in which I support the DP in this country. It’s a pretty high bar. Our current system, with its corruption, malfeasance, discriminatory disparity of sentencing, and lack of competent counsel for indigent defendants, comes nowhere near that bar.
In cases outside the US? That’s trickier. Most of the countries considered civilized democracies no longer have a death penalty. In the countries which are either non-democratic or non-civilized, or both, the death penalty is as much or more a human rights issue as it is a legal one.
In Saddam’s case, I don’t see how “justice was done.” The trial might have been the best Iraq could do, but it was still a travesty (judges, lawyers, and witnesses being replaced, threatened, and/or killed). There are thousands more deaths he was accused of, that will now never be tried. The timing of the execution was, to put it mildly, suspect. What would have been lost by waiting until Saddam’s other trials ended?
ThymeZone
The “usual suspects?” A current self-selected CNN poll has 80 percent of 130k+ respondents answering “NO” to the question of whether Saddam’s death will help stabilize Iraq.
Not a scientific poll, but indicative of this: Most people don’t agree with you, and you can take your arrogant shitty attitude toward the apparent majority of Americans who don’t agree with you or share the nasty and un-American views seen on your crummy blog, and shove them up your ass, sir. With both hands.
Darrell
TZ demonstrating once again that he is truly a classless dreg.
Americans can simultaneously believe that Saddam’s hanging is not a magic bullet cure for Iraq’s ills, while also believing that that the execution of the mass murderer was a good thing.
Darrell
How about child killers?
ThymeZone
No point is too obvious or too plain for you to miss it and shit on it, right Darrell?
The point was that calling the majority of Americans “suspects” is an act of disrespect which will be answered with disrespect, and the same goes for you and your shitty attitude toward the large majority of the world that thinks you are full of shit: Fuck you and your attitude. Shove it up your ass.
Got it?
Andrew
Is that child killers or child killers?
Darrell
I can honestly say that even if a fellow conservative wrote that, I would still believe that person to be mentally unbalanced. It’s not a partisan thing. It’s just weird is all.
Darrell
Adult killers of children.
ThymeZone
You mean people like you? People who stand by and excuse and defend the bombing of children for political purposes?
You suck, Darrell. Go away. You’re a moral abomination, an embarassment to the human race.
Zifnab
How about baby rapists? Or cannibals? Or leaders of satanic cults? Or people who don’t turn their cell phones off in movie theaters?
What happens if someone was convicted of skinning a nun alive with a rusty spoon? What about a guy who beats a Supreme Court Justice to death with a baseball bat with a bunch of nails in it? What then? Would you be for the death penalty then?
Darrell
That’s not what he did.. unless you can show us a poll in which Americans were asked: “Was it a good thing that Saddam was executed?”. And next time you cite a poll, please a link. Unless you’re afraid of honest scrutiny.
Darrell
Absolutely yes. Nice touch too zifnab,conflating killers of children with people who don’t turn off their cell phones in theaters. You are clearly a deep thinker.
ThymeZone
The poll framed exactly the question that the asshole framed, which is why I cited it, you unfathomably stupid shit.
And a “current CNN poll” might be found on the CNN website, you ridiculous horse’s ass. You could have found it in less time than it took you to write your asinine post.
Darrell
What’s ironic is that you people don’t see yourselves as freaks.
ThymeZone
Shut up and go away you narrow-minded asshole. You say the same goddam things every fucking day. Nobody here wants to hear it.
Darrell
If you search the CNN website using the word “poll” as I did earlier, you’ll come up empty handed. It’s actually one of those internet vote things in which anyone can cast a vote many times over. Which is why they don’t call it a ‘poll’ I suspect. Again, no one is claiming Saddam’s hanging is a magic bullet cure for Iraqi stability. It was though, a positive, long overdue and needed action.
ThymeZone
What the FUCK is the matter with you, man?
Seriously? What the hell is your problem?
SHUT UP. Any moron could find it in ten seconds, no “find” was necessary.
My point was accurate, and it stands. Most people don’t agree with you and the asshole who wrote the original post I responded to. Do you pay any attention here while you are writing your worthless and annoying shit every day?
Are you a fucking mental patient?
Darrell
Duh! I’m a “moral abomination”
ThymeZone
You got that right. And you’re an abomination to this place, too.
Grrr
Darrell Says: [stuff]
Hey, Darrell. Maybe *you* deep thinkers should win a few elections to regain the moral high ground and stuff.
Just keep swimming upstream against that mighty MSM left-wing bias, brave victim.
KC
I think Perry Como asked a very relevant question: has anyone read about any recent school paintings in Iraq? School paintings, Darrell? After all, a well painted school is a sure sign of progress.
demimondian
Oh, look, Darrell likes pie. Friend, you’ve said that before, and it’s getting kind of old.
You could be doing so much more useful things, like refuting the thesis that climate change is causing a decrease in the numbers of polar bears by running a census of their numbers.
TenguPhule
And if one life is lost because of it, it wasn’t worth it?
Or is this some kind of delusional doublestandard going on?
TenguPhule
Shorter Darrell: Child Killers! Child Killers!
His obsession with them is a bit worrying, and I believe Darrell needs to be electronically spied on to ensure he is not actually a child molester/killer.
After all, we have *no* *poof* he doesn’t rape and kill small children. And we all know Darrell is pro-spying so he should have no problem if he has nothing to hide, right?
demimondian
Um, D-boy? The poll in question is on the right hand side of the cnn.com page, about half-way down. It uses JS to pop up a box, but it’s right there. I needed help to find it (Thanks, anonymous helpers) but it’s right where Herb says it is.
Bithead
And they must be constructed?
My but you are slow.
There’s this new idea that I’ve heard of… it’s called BUYING them.
As an alternate, being given them by another rouge nation… say, Syria, or even Iran… both of which would profit from Saddam being back in place.
May I suggest you actually study the problem… somewhere other than the DNC Talking points, or the NYT…(OK, they’re the same thing, I know)… before you spout again?
ThymeZone
Kinda like a red state?
mrmobi
Right you are, TZ. I watched the ceremonies today. It is appropriate that we are remembering President Ford right now. In his unassuming way, he helped rescue this great country from a deeply flawed Presidency which had lost its way, and had lost track of the principles which are supposed to guide public service.
He changed that, at a time when it was crucial to the future of this democracy. I’m happy to celebrate the kind of decency he represented, regardless of which party he represented.
The lessons learned from his great service will be helpful to all of us as we re-instate oversight and accountability to our government over the next weeks and months. I only hope that the new majority can serve with the kind of modest dignity that he exhibited.
Rest in peace, Gerald Ford. We are in your debt.
John Redworth
Nothing the painting of schools but I did hear that on Tuesday they are going to have pizza and tater tots in the school lunch room. An unnamed Sunni kid is “stoked” and will be featured on an upcoming segment of Fox’s Morning Show discussing his tater tot windfall…
demimondian
Oh, great and wise Prophet, your wisdom is beyond reproach. Surely, a proposal such as this:
had never occurred to me.
How brilliantly devious! To buy weapons from Iran in order to restore the rule of a man who had caused the deaths of millions of their people during a brutal war in the 1980’s. Surely, it would be as nothing to convince the Shia to part with such a device.
Your jokes grow ever cleverer, my Lord. I laughed myself almost blind at the cunning humor of the suggestion of Iran.
Then I came to the suggestion which was serious — and I thank you, oh gentle master, for actually making a serious suggestion. Truly, I can see Syria building a nuclear device. They would create the necessary industrial plant out of thin air, and use material that they do not have and personnel that they cannot get to make a device that they would risk having used against them.
I had not realize that the Arabs and the Persians are as stupid as you, in your infinite wisdom, believe them to be. Either that, or, perhaps, O! gracious One! It could be that you are as stupid as you seem.
But no, that cannot be. You are merely still joking with me. How about a serious answer this time?
RSA
With respect to the latter point, the Vatican has condemned Saddam’s execution. Americans who are “good Catholics” may be taking this into account, despite their general support of the death penalty. In any case, it’s quite a wide brush that paints the Pope as a moral “freak”.
Bithead
Ya know, you’re really getting boring; I see now, that my initial perception of you was correct. You can’t be taught anything.
Had it occurred to you that either or both those states, Syria, and Iran, would greatly benefit from anything but a democracy being in power in Iraq? …that under such instability, either would stand a bigger chance of keeping their own hopes of spreading radical Islam, alive?
And with the Democrat’s wish granted as to our pulling out of the region, what would stop them from doing exactly that?
demimondian
Oh, great and learned one, your jokes are getting ever more amusing.
For as you know, that the Syrian government is Baathist, and, although authoritarian, is quite aggressively secular. The Baath party has no love for Islamists, and they have no love for it. And, of course, the Iranian government, far from opposing democracy in Iraq, would be best served by a one-man-one-vote democracy in Iraq, seeing as 60% of all Iraqis are Shia, and, from a religious standpoint, far closer to Qum than to Djeddah, and that, indeed, the holiest of Shia shrines are in Iraq, not Iran. Iran would much rather dominate a weakened but functional Iraq than the glowing radioactive corpse or their neighbor.
Truly, O Great One, a less faithful one would find your humor growing tiresome. I wait, though, and hold faith that you will gift me with the simple mechanism that would have brought Hussein back to power.
ThymeZone
Why do you shit on America? The people want the war over and the troops out.
Why do you want democracy for Iraq but not for your own country?
Is this really the place you want to come to pimp your crummy blog?
Big Pimpin'
Getting kinda dizzy, eh Bithead? Try and leave your emotions out of it next time.
Truth is things couldn’t be going better for Tehran these days. We’ve removed their worst enemy and his supporters in Baghdad, and turned the govt of Iraq over to the Shi’a. Can you think of a rosier scenario for Iran? We spend the lives and health of our military, plus half a trillion in (mostly borrowed) nat’l treasure, and Tehran gets to take our place once we drag or whipped asses home.
Bush’s failures are so vast you can’t even comprehend them yet, boy.
Zifnab
Damn that Democracy(tm). You’re right Bithead. If Democracy(tm) takes root in Iraq, Syria and Iran won’t have a chance. Because, as we all know, Democracy(tm) causes rogue nations to collapse. Why, just take a look at Latin America. By instituting Democracy(tm) in Latin American countries, all the rogue nations like Cuba and Venezuela have crumbled near instantanously. And countries like Mexico have unquestionably prospered from Democracy(tm). Just look at the last election cycle, and how well the Mexican economy has fared.
How ironic that the party which calls itself “Democrats” would time and time again rear vile heads in opposition to the benevolent Democracy(tm) that Glorious President Bush continues to present to the grateful Iraqi people year after year.
Truly Islam(R) is the enemy of Democracy(tm) and must be squashed at all costs. Once Democracy(tm) takes root in Iraq, it will abandon its evil Islamic(R) roots and become a benevolent Christian force throughout the Middle East.
Big Pimpin'
Getting kinda dizzy, eh Bithead? Try and leave your emotions out of it next time.
Truth is things couldn’t be going better for Tehran these days. We’ve removed their worst enemy and his supporters in Baghdad, and turned the govt of Iraq over to the Shi’a. Can you think of a rosier scenario for Iran? We spend the lives and health of our military, plus half a trillion in (mostly borrowed) nat’l treasure, and Tehran gets to take our place once we drag our whipped asses home.
Bush’s failures are so vast you can’t even comprehend them yet, boy.
Doug H
…that under such instability, either would stand a bigger chance of keeping their own hopes of spreading radical Islam, alive?
Thanks, Bithead, I really needed that gut-laugh. Syria spreading radical Islam! Hahahaha! I love it! What other whoppers do you have for us?
Big Pimpin'
BBC: No Arab Euphoria At Saddam Death
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6219765.stm
Yep, they’re hating us just about everywhere. Another instance of Yosemite Georgie’s frontier justice that is going to bite us firmly in the ass.
BadTux
What did Saddam know that required hanging him before his trials were finished? Did he threaten to talk? Is that what caused the Iraqi “government” to hang him so swiftly? Or is it simply that the Iraqi “government” knows that they are going to have a Saigon moment shortly, and hung Saddam in a panic that they might get overthrown before they got a chance to do so?
The latter, I suppose, is possible. But this picture keeps coming to mind…
http://badtux.net/uploaded_images/Rumsfeld-vs-Saddam-764112.gif
Teh Donald may no longer be Secretary of Defense, but he wasn’t the only former Reagan Administration official involved with Saddam during the 1980’s. There’s this other guy, for example. Guy by the name of “Dick Cheney”. Wonder what dirt Saddam had on the Bigus Dickus? Oops, dead men can’t sing like parrots, gosh darn, what a shame!
– Badtux the Snarky Penguin
John Redworth
tater tots I tell you!!!
grumpy realist
1. Doubt this will have any result in Iraq, except for the poke in the eye vis-a-vis the Eid Shi’ia-Sunni timing.
2. Saddam at this point was more useful dead to everyone in power than alive-but-in-prison. Result: hanging.
3. Timing: considering how weak the Iraqi gov’t is, this is more of a case of stringing-the-guy-up-while-we-still-have-power than anything else.
4. Now everyone can get down to the main scenario: the N-sided dogfight in Iraq. Expect to continue for a while, until one side wins, or everyone gets so sick and tired of anarchy that another strongman arises. The third possibility, that people get sick of religious war and develop a concept of tolerance, usually requires a few centuries. Witness the religious wars in Europe–took about 200 years before the Catholics and the Protestants stopped fielding armies at each other.
Darrell
They knew that Saddam was about to go public through his lawyer Ramsey Clark in order to spill the beans that George Bush orchestrated 9/11 as an excuse to invade Iraq to steal their oil.
So with that bombshell, Saddam had to be silenced immediately. There can be no other explanation.
Darrell
If you would have bothered to read, my reference to “freak” was not in the context of the CNN poll or its interpretation. It was in reference to specific comments from TZ going off on another of his unhinged rants complete with “Fuck you”, “you suck”, and “you’re a moral abomination”. That bizarre tirade is what triggered my response of “freak”. Anyone can read this for themselves.
To try and tie my response in any way to being a criticism of the Vatican is dishonest as hell, but typical.. as that’s about all the ‘substance’ you have left in your arguments.
ThymeZone
You’re a goddammed bald-faced liar.
You’ve been calling Democrats,liberals and “leftists” every name in the book for at least two years now, every frigging day, usually without provocation, and always with a nasty disdain for anything approaching civility. Don’t fucking lecture me, you pissant.
And don’t try to blame me for your shitty and, by the way, completely ineffective style. Two years of your crap here, that I am aware of, and what do you have? You’ve run off all the other right wingers and Republicans. Not even they would usually come to your defense. You’ve given all of them a bad name … the surest way to defeat them in any debate was to hook them up with you.
You’re a liar and loser, Darrell. You truly suck. There is no rational explanation for why you are allowed to post here, no explanation that both makes sense and is grounded in any useful or noble principle. It’s either somebody’s idea of a joke, or somebody’s twisted idea of “free speech.” But your kind of “free speech” is the kind that has an idiot standing on a streetcorner and shouting fire and brimstone all day to passersby who don’t want to hear it. Worthless, and crazy.
You lie. You weasel. You deflect, you are a coward who can’t answer direct questions or take simply stated positions and then stand or fall on their merits. You are a piece of shit.
Darrell
Hilarious how you had no respect for the people’s wishes in the last two Presidential elections (“he’s not my President!”), now suddenly when any internet straw poll or election goes your way, anyone disagreeing needs to “shove it up their ass” (TZ’s words).
TZ, just curious as to how inconsistent you are – does your previous disrespect for the people’s wishes in re-electing George Bush and increasing Repub control of congress.. did that disagreement with the people make you a ‘moral abomination’?
BadTux
Darrel, I was thinking more about just which American companies provided which dual-use chemical weapons technology to Saddam during the 1980’s with full knowledge that it was going to be used against Iran and probably against his own citizens too… remember that report Saddam gave the UN? The one that the Bush Administration promptly censored to remove all the references to American corporations before allowing the UN to release it? The un-censored report is out there somewhere, but what else did Saddam know that wasn’t in that report?
Given the involvement of so many chemical company executives in the current Bush Administration, it’s a fair question: What did Saddam know that meant he had to be shut up while the puppet government in Baghdad still had the power to shut him up?
ThymeZone
When your dirtbag government starts to show respect for the people, then you can lecture me, you little turd.
Americans hate this war and want it over. Your government had to lie to them and invent a threat that did not exist to get them to go along with it. Now in the face of clear public opposition, these assholes are still talking about pressing on toward some “victory” they can’t define because …. what? They know better than the people?
When you stop referring to the mainstream American view as “scum” and “freaks,” then you climb up on your little tinhorn’s soapbox and lecture me.
Darrell
What do you think you know BadTux? We had extensive congressional hearings years ago over who sold what to Iraq in the 1980’s including declassified intelligence documents, and nothing came out then to support your moonbat allegations of “full knowledge” we were arming Saddam with WMDs.
No doubt you think of yourself as “informed”. Sad really.
ThymeZone
No, you know what’s sad?
You apparently have no respect for anybody here. Not for John, or Tim, or any posters. They’re all “scum” and “freaks” and “whacked out.” Every day, on every topic, in every thread you touch, this is what we get. You’re the laughingstock of the blog, the poster boy for stupidity, the champion of lies, the godfather of the strawman, the deflection, the hideous logic error, the distortion and every manner of bad argument.
And yet, here you are. That’s sad.
Darrell
No TZ, I have never called John or Tim “scum” or “freaks”. And until they go off on an unhinged tirade complete with screaming “you’re a moral abomination!”, “Fuck you”, “you suck”.. until that time, I will reserve such appellations for the truly deserving freaks like yourself.
BadTux
Darrel, we had Congressional hearings on the sale of weapons to Iran, but never on the sale of dual-use chemical weapons technology to Iraq during the 1980’s. There has never been a full investigation of that, and indeed, the Bush Administration conveniently censored the info that Saddam released back in 2002 about that to remove all references to American corporations (this is a matter of public record, Hans Blix was irate). And now that the principle witness is conveniently dead, there never will be a full investigation. How convenient.
— BadTux
Darrell
I’m honestly curious who these “many” chemical company execs in the Bush administration are. Halliburton is an engineering and oilfield supply co., not a chemical company. Rumsfeld worked for Searle, a pharmaceutical company known for making Metamucil. Is that what you’re calling a “chemical company”?
For all the lefties who still claim that the “US armed Saddam with WMDs”, you should try and square your views with the facts. Start by reading this History News Network article
ThymeZone
As long as you keep up this lying bullshit I am right here to call you out on it.
You call everybody dismissive names, every day. You constantly lump all who would dare to disagree with your narrow, bigoted, twisted sociopathic views “scum” and “dishonest” and “whacked” every day on every thread.
What is your purpose here? Do you think you are presuading somebody? Do you think you are funny? Do you think you are representing a point of view — if so, why can’t you state it in simple terms and then defend it with coherent argument? Because you can’t win a coherent argument?
You’re a shitty little ankle-biter, Darrell. Nothing more, and your presence here is a drag on this place every day. Everything gets reduced to your dreary insulting version of somebody else’s talking points.
And yet, here you are. The pride of Balloon-Juice. The one thing that can be depended on here every day.
John S.
Wow!
What a great source Darrell has cited in that History News Network. In another one of their articles, they asked hundreds of promininent historians what they thought about the current administration:
George W. Bush is a failure. The History News Network said so.
Darrell
Were you the John S that was furiously posting over Powerline’s “deceptive” photo of John Kerry? Have you read about the debunking of that allegation where all the hystical moonbats slithered away?
Mike
I have read this blog for some time and witnessed (and participated) with people trying to engage Darrell and any number of issues, all to no avail.
I am torn on what to do about him. On one hand, he is a shining example of the depths that people will sink to. I like holding him up as an example of the Right, just like we need to hang Bush around the neck of every Republican running for office in ’08 like a stinking albatross.
On the other hand, it is difficult to hold an intelligible conversation with all the noise generated by a few.
I believe the only way to get him to go away permanently, if that is what we want to do, is to ignore him. Studiously ignore him. DO NOT RESPOND to anything he says, no matter how stupid or incendiary it is. Given enough time, he will go away and stay away after he realizes how irrelevant he truly is and that he cannot provoke anyone into responding.
He is not going to change anyone’s mind here with his foolishness, and he has proved himself to be a contrarian of such magnitude that he will never admit that he was in fact wrong about everything, much less anything. Thus, I conclude that the only option available, should we wish it, is to ignore him until he goes away. It may take a long time, but he will eventually go somewhere else when his posts meet empty silence and he can’t get satisfaction he so clearly gets when someone responds to him.
Shabbazz
Somewhat off topic, but I saw Dweezil Zappa last night on the “Zappa Plays Zappa” tour. He dedicated “The Torture Never Stops” to Saddam Hussein. Freakin’ riot, he is!
The Regyptian Strut > Peaches en Regalia > Montana was a hoot as well!
Darrell
What “depths” are you referring to Mike? A couple of (in-context) examples would be useful. Truth is, so many of you live in an echo chamber. You’re never confronted with anyone challenging your extremist views, so when you have your positions shredded to pieces with facts, you have no other alternative but to attack/criticize me personally, always in the most general of terms.
As one example among many, BadTux alleged that “American companies provided which dual-use chemical weapons technology to Saddam during the 1980’s with full knowledge that it was going to be used against Iran”. He also claimed that “many” chemical company executives are in the Bush administration.
When asked to substantiate these allegations, he can’t do it. Why? Because BadTux, like Mike and so many other leftists live in an echo chamber where wild-eyed conspiracy theories are accepted as fact by leftist sheep. Anyone who dares to challenge the liberal dogma must be ‘banned’ and ‘ignored’.
demimondian
Oh, my, look! Darrell isn’t talking about pie this morning…I guess the recent Firefox security update changed something. I wonder if that’s a bug or a feature?
The debunking actually stands, although not for the reasons originally given, Darrell: a picture taken in the same place shows Kerry surrounded by troops eating, listening to one of them as he’s talking to the Senator.) Typically, there’s been a lot of triumphalism in the blogosphere over the original debunking being wrong, based on that second picture, released on Michelle Malkin’s blog, to show the left was wrong about the first photo. That it exposed the original narrative as a complete fraud somehow hasn’t gotten much play there.
Oh, and the first blog to point out that there was a problem? Talking points memo: a commenter went back and looked at the original metadata, and found that the picture had been taken using a camera that wasn’t available until a month and a half after the date stored in the file. So, hey, the left was self-correcting consciously, while the right was self-correcting through a stupid
Ellison, Ellensburg, Ellers, and Lambchop
The “I am against the death penalty but Saddam (and Tookie and Musselini and whoever else) got what they deserved” is cowardly moral posturing to me. Is it so important to pretend to hold some imagined moral high ground against those who actually do what you yourself think is right? Wouldn’t want to get your pretty white gloves dirty.
Darrell
What were the reasons “originally given”? Please explain.
Powerline posted a photo, many, many leftist moonbats went apeshit calling it . They were wrong, and most never admitted it.. Right here on BJ, John S (or John H?) posted repeatedly over the “sham” photos from Powerline, then never had the integrity to come back and acknowledge how wrong he was.
demimondian
Darrell, snookums, I’ve read this blog for a very long time. It wasn’t always an echo chamber — there used to be a variety of voices on the right; indeed, when I first started reading it, it was dominated by those voices.
One by one, you’ve driven them off. OCSteve, Al Maviva, Stormy — they wound up feeling like being associated with you required them to defend your lunacy, and they left. The place is much poorer for that.
And, yes, D-boy, it’s your fault, not theirs. I wouldn’t want to be associated with you, either.
demimondian
The reasons originally given were exactly one reason: that the date on the photo was in January of this year.
And it’s important to point out, again, that although that argument was false, the basic claim that the photo showed the troops ignoring Kerry was not true. It’s turned into a lie, now, because the reason for the table being empty had to do with the time in the meal.
Since you’re so big on apologizing when you’re wrong, Darrell, are you prepared to acknowledge that you were wrong in claiming that the photo showed the troops in Iraq ignoring Kerry? You made that claim, and it’s the important one — when will you retract it?
Paddy O'Shea
I wonder if it has occurred to any of you plush innocents that Darrell gets off on the abuse he receives here.
By replying to the bait he scatters about this place you are only abetting his need for mastabatory self-exposure and humiliation.
Stop talking to him. He’s using you in a most disgraceful way
Darrell
I NEVER made that claim, and you’re lying to assert that I every did.
You have 3 choices:
1) show where I ever made the claim (I didn’t)
2) have the integrity to admit you were wrong in your accusation
3) slither away from the thread without admitting how wrong you were like a typical leftist
Shabbazz
I just read that an awkwardly cropped photo posted on the internet proves that John Kerry spanks it with a thumb up his butt!
demimondian
Look, Darrell likes pie again! Hey, D-boy, go do something useful with your time, like counting polar bears up in Nunavut.
Darrell
And although I never made claim Kerry was being ignored by the troops, judging by the photo of Kerry eating almost by himself (I see one person eating with him not wearing a military uniform), it sure looks like he’s being ignored. It’s pretty rare to see such a high level politician (Senator and Presidential candidate!) eating in a mess hall full of military personnel without being surrounded by troops. On what basis are you and others claiming that Kerry wasn’t being ignored? Because the photo was sent in by a soldier who there, and he said Kerry was being ignored. Just curious as to what the ‘other side’ of the argument is here.
John Cole
Re: The Debunked Photo
I never embraced the “picture is a fraud” shit because, quite frankly, I don’t care. The whole thing was bullshit. It does appear to me that the photo was legitimate, and that while proving the photo is legit, Malkin, the Powerline, and comapny had to dig up a bunch of other photos from the same time- photos, which, not surprisingly, show Kerry surrounded by soldiers.
So where does that leave us- right where I said we were. A bunch of pathetic right-wingers have nothing better to do than to boost their ego or smear john Kerry over some stupid meaningless photo, and now we know that the photo not only is meaningless, but that it doesn’t even portray what they alleged it did- that the troops were shunning Kerry.
So, the photo is real and the people who alleged it meant Kerry was shunnned are full of shit. If you want to call that a win, Darrell, more power to you.
Paddy O'Shea
AP: Woman Charged With Malicious Castration
http://www.forbes.com/business/energy/feeds/ap/2006/12/29/ap3288958.html
Malicious castration … you she couldn’t have just been nice about it?
Darrell
John, a soldier sent in the photo, not a right wing blogger. And if this demonstrates how “pathetic” the right wing is, do you find the left wing of the blogosphere equally or more pathetic for going so apeshit over it? never once considering the obvious issue that the camera date may not have been set
Or does your invective only run one-way? Given your one-way criticism, just curious as to how deep your ‘integrity’ runs on this issue John.
W.B. Reeves
Of course, as anyone who has been paying attention knows, the “American people” didn’t elect George W. Bush in 2000. The Electoral College did with an assist from the Supreme Court. The popular vote was won by Al Gore. So when people said that G.W. was not their President, they were echoing rather than disrespecting the “wishes” of the majority of the U.S. electorate. Another post qualifying Darrell for the Stalin Prize in the historical rewrite category.
The practical and ethical problems with the death penalty cited by John and others here are well founded. My own position is more nuanced. I would find capital punishment acceptable with one proviso: I get to decide who gets it. This is non-negotiable. Since I don’t trust anyone other than myself with the authority to make such decisions, it follows that I certainly wouldn’t cede it to any state aparatus.
I think folks are being too hard on Bithead. He obviously understands, as his critics do not, the close ties between Islamist and Secular Arabs and the criminal organization known as SPECTRE. This organization is secretly controlled by the notorious DR. EVIL who would be more than willing to sell them the DOOMSDAY BOMB for the sum of ONE MILLION DOLLARS!
Truly, the Republic can rest in peace with such tribunes as Bithead on watch.
Paddy O'Shea
Wow. John Edwards, announcing his opposition to sending more troops to Iraq yesterday, referred to the proposal to do so as the “McCain Doctrine.”
Nice!
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/us/AP-Edwards-2008.html
Paddy O'Shea
This is ominous ..
http://www.hoflink.com/~dbaer/whichneck.jpg
John Cole
A.) It doesn’t matter who sent in the photo. It does not represent what it was claimed to represent, as a number of other photos from the same event show Kerry surrounded by soldiers.
B.) Yes. It does represent how pathetic many in the right wing are. While our troops are dying on a daily basis four years in to a never-ending war that the President STILL is struggling to come up with a feasible policy/plan/exit strategy, idiots on the right chose to misrepresent a picture of Kerry sitting at a chow hall in Iraq. Perhaps if he had just been eating brisket on a ranch in Texas with his thumb up his ass you would have had no problem with it.
C.) I don’t find those that went “apeshit” at the picture to be as pathetic for several reasons. First, they were provoked by the idiots pushing the bullshit photo. Second, they were not asttempting to gain any advantage or attack anyone- just trying to refute what we now both agree was a bullshit photo. Third, if you are going to make me choose between the Powerline Asshat trio and the rest of the world, the choice is easy.
D.) I have no clue how me maintaining a consistent position regarding the photo is a lack of integrity. I did not highlight the claims about the fake photo, because as I have stated several times, I don’t give a shit if it is real or fake or a year old. That doesn’t matter. EVEN if it were, in fact, proof that soldiers hate Kerry, SO FUCKING WHAT? Does that mean the Decider has come up with a plan to stop the hemmoraging of blood and cash in Iraq? Get your fucking priorities straight, dimwit.
demimondian
E-cubed-lambchops:
Thinking something is justified is not the same as thinking something is right. It would not be right, in my opinion, to demand that G.W. Bush be hauled in front of a war crimes tribunal in The Hague. However, at this point, there’s no credible doubt that he launched a war of aggression on the basis of falsified data, which makes a strong case for him being a war criminal. As such, it would be justified to call for him to be brought in front of The Hague.
A foolish but justified act is not right. Justification is necessary, but not sufficient.,
Darrell
Sure it matters who sent it. It matters a lot. It was a soldier, not a blogger who sent in the photo.
John, what’s with this “we both agree” shit? Where did I agree? A soldier said Kerry was being ignored by troops and sent in a photo to prove it. I did see another photo with a few troops around him, but neither that photo or anything else you’ve said or presented tells us to what extent the troops snubbed him. It would be unusual for a high profile VIP politician like Kerry to eat in a mess hall not to be surrounded by soldiers, as he clearly wasn’t in at least one photo. Neither you or I “know” for sure, so why not cut your bullshit over how “we both know”?
Well, I disagree that Powerline/Malkin “pushed” the photo. They published it at the request of a soldier serving in Iraq. Further, it’s damn clear that the lefts’ hysteria over it was far out of proportion to any ‘pushing’ coming from the right. They went apeshit over it to an extreme degree. Nothing comparable on the right side of the blogosphere over this issue.
Lastly, I never pushed the story. I only commented on it, because John S (I think it was him?) who posted earlier today had so trumpeted what a “fraud” the photo was on this site, posting repeatedly over the ‘sham’ like an idiot. When proven wrong, he just slithered away rather than man up and admit how he wrong he was. typical
John Cole
I just assumed you agreed because after viewing the proof that the picture was original, you would have had to have seen the pictures of Kerry WITH soldiers, and thus realized the “shunned” angle was bullshit. My bad, I forgot you like to have your cake and eat it too.
Second, it does not matter who sent the photo in at all. What if someone had sent a picture of from behind Kerry bending over to tie a young girl’s shoes, but alleged that “Kerry was molesting a young girl.” Then, later on, additional photos surfaced from different angles showing Kerry was not in fact molesting the young girl, but tying her shoes. Would it still matter who sent the picture in? Of course not. What matters is that the original charge that Kerry was shunned by the troops is adequately (clearly, IMHO) debunked.
Finally, I don’t care if you pushed the story or not, you called my integrity into question because I didn’t even comment about the debunking angle.
And back to the point in hand- why is it ok for the President to meander around his ranch, alternately posing for photographs with his “war council” and grabbing his crotch while doing nothing to stop the mess we are in, yet somehow Kerry eating in a mess hall in Iraq is supposedly a scandal (and even then, there was no scandal)? Some pretty fucked up priorities, you got there.
Darrell
Was it a “shunned” angle or a pic taken at a different time?
that’s a fucking lie. I called your integrity into question because you directed all your criticism toward the rightwing bloggers when the left side of the blogosphere were the ones who had gone so over-the-top apeshit over the photos, making false claims over the dates of the photos, which had a perfectly reasonable explanation. It was all one-way criticism.
W.B. Reeves
It’s this sort of thing that gets you labeled a dimwit Darrell. The picture was taken while Kerry was giving a media interview, something the photographer would have been well aware of. Presenting this as an illustration of how the troops were “shunning” Kerry is a clear case of falsifying the “evidence.”
No more lectures on integrity please.
This is an example of what gets you labeled a dishonest, partisan hack. Rightwing sources push “evidence” that turns out to be phonied up but you claim that the moral onus lies with those who were right about the illegitimacy of the “evidence” but for the wrong reason(mistakenly believing that the date/time stamp on the camera was accurate.) It takes a particular sort of mentality to argue that conscious deceit is morally superior to an honest mistake.
Darrell
Yes John, that’s exactly what happened. Such an honest and fair minded characterization on your part.
Darrell
What’s really horrible was Bush and his “fake” turkey on that Thanksgiving in Iraq. That kind of shit needs to be stopped asap.
John Cole
How is this different from precisely what I said- you called my integrity into question because I failed to address the debunking claims, which I have stated repeatedly are irrelevant to the question of whether or not Kerry was shunned. Oh, that is right. It isn’t.
What he said.
Umm, check the archives. I flayed the people pushing the fake turkey angle, just as I attacked the people pushing this bullshit “Kerry was shunned” crap. You find one acceptable, the other deplorable.
Define integrity for me, please. I don’t think you know what it means.
SeesThroughIt
Well, as you probably know, malicious castration carries a much stiffer sentence than benevolent castration does, and this DA is being a real–wait for it…wait for it…ball-buster.
W.B. Reeves
Another for the dimwit file. There’s no direct contradiction between not “commenting on the debunking angle” and John directing all his criticism towards Rightwing bloggers. Not commenting on the debunking angle clearly encompasses refraining from criticism of the Leftwing blogs. You’re playing word games. Not a good basis for calling your host a liar and not very effective as argument either.
Tsulagi
Okay, that’s it. You’ve gone too far. Report to turn in your Bush-generation Republican registration card for incineration.
Tsulagi
Oh, and John Cole et al…
It’s New Year’s Eve, can’t we all just get along?
(Sorry, couldn’t resist)
demimondian
Hey, John — if you’re still reading, I NEED A FOOTBALL THREAD THIS AFTERNOON!
TenguPhule
Let’s play the Darrell Integrity of the source game.
Name, rank, serial number?
Or does this only apply to the sources of stories Darrell doesn’t like?
TenguPhule
Shorter Darrell: Watch me contradict myself in the same fucking sentence!
John Redworth
or would it be,
Would you define how many soldiers were ignoring Kerry? 90% 75%? A ballpark estimate will do.
GOP4Me et al
I guess we’d just have to execute John Kerry, then. Child rape is even worse than child murder, after all.
John S.
Um, no.
My eyes would bleed if I even tried to peruse that site. Of course, I’m sure you’ve gathered that John Smith is an extremely common name in this country, therefore it is likely there are quite a few John S‘s floating around.
Oh look! A pony…
Darrell
Contrary to your bullshit, I wrote that the pic seemed to show that Kerry was snubbed and I asked for the ‘other side’ of the story when you chimed in.
John, you made an absolute declaration that the pic was taken from a deliberately misleading “shunned” angle. You didn’t even consider the possibility/likelihood that the photo was not taken from a misleading angle, but taken at a different time. In fact, looking at both photos, I don’t think it’s even possible for a deliberately deceptive camera angle to have blocked the other soldiers as you allege, so yeah, I’m calling bullshit unless you have more than your “feeling” that it was taken at a deceptive angle.
Either way John, you went forward with your time-tested technique of assuming something to be fact (dubious assumption that pic taken at deliberately misleading angle), then insulting anyone who challenges him – I’m a consistently dishonest hack who always likes “to have your cake and eat it too” for daring to challenge the “shunned” angle claim.
Then you kept on, further posting
But it hasn’t been established definitively that the photo posted was “illegitimate” or even misleading. It was taken by a soldier who claims otherwise. You pretend that it has been established to be misleading/illegitimate.
First you claim without basis that the camera angle was deliberately misleading. Then when challenged on that assertion, you never explain, you just insult and then move forward as if that was nothing. You also claim that the left, with their over the top hysteria screaming fraud weren’t “attacking” anyone. Yeah John, they were going apeshit (entirely based on a camera date stamp on the photo)..all in an honest search for the truth, right? It is your stated position that the left wasn’t ‘attacking’ anyone with their fraud/sham/liar allegations, is it not? That integrity thing of yours isn’t looking so good right now with statements like that..
Happy New Year, btw
demimondian
No, John, it’s not a pony. Ponies don’t exist, or, at least, can’t be found. It’s a jackalope — they’re frighteningly common around here.
John Redworth
I have looked at the pictures, compared them and have come to the conclusion that these pictures were taken at different times. I would say within half an hour of each other but at different times.
It is true that some on the left took the date stamp and ran with it but let’s be completely honest here… how many times in the past year have photos been posted and one side or the other claim they are fake/photoshopped or out of context? How many of those claims were found to be false without apologies? Or how many of those photos were found manipulated or out of context?
Now think back… how many times has anyone apologized for the false claims or manipulated photos? Not very often… I would venture to guess that the most common reactions are A) take down the post, B) ignore the contradictions or C) try to spin it another way…
One other thing, whether the photo is legit or not, the issue that our Host was bringing up was the blatant smearing of a Senator who chose to spend his holidays with the troops. Did the troops shun him due to his botched joke? Other photos that have popped up disagree with that thought, but it doesn’t matter since this was blatant attack on “Jon Carry” and that can not be denied…
John Cole
Chimed in? It is my site, you douchebag.
Actually, what I stated was THAT I DON’T FUCKING CARE if he was or was not shunned:
Now, there is ample evidence (through additional photographs) that he was not shunned. You counter with “The soldier sure thinks he was shunned and it sure looks like it to me.” To which I respond, again:
“SO FUCKING WHAT?”
First, you seem to be doing a right-wing version of Cindy Sheehan’s ‘absolute moral authority.’ Who fucking cares what the soldier ‘thought?’ The Abu Gharaib absers thought they were doing the right thing or not doing anything wrong. Does their status as soldiers make that assertion accurate? The collection of pictures seems to paint a different story, yet you refuse to acknowledge that possibility.
Additionally, SO FUCKING WHAT? I think it might be very possible that some soldiers might shun Kerry.I am sure you and the rest of the mouthbreathers have convinced many of them that Dick Durbin thinks they are Nazis (Remember that stab in the back ploy from last summer- designed to deflect from the Abu Gharaib scandal?). Even if EVERY fucking soldier is shunning Kerry because you al lhave managed to convince them that he is the enemy, SO FUCKING WHAT?
He was in Iraq trying to do the right thing, while the Decider was running around groping himself in Texas, pretending to think about his plan, when everyone on the God damn planet knows what his plan is- to call for more troops to throw into hte meat grinder, have that rejected by Congresscritters of both political persuasions, and then start working on the stab in the back excuses so that in 20 years your stupid ass can be arguing that ‘We only would have won Iraq if the Democrats hadn’t sabotaged our efforts and the moderates hadn’t gone wobbly.’
Now STFU and quit making me defend Kerry, who I can’t stand.
John Redworth
BRAVO JOHN!!!
I am but a minor background character here but damn, that was spot on!
Happy New Year!
Krista
FANTASTIC!
/raises glass to John
Tsulagi
LOL! So much for kumbaya to start off the New Year. Great line, though.
No matter how many times you say “SO FUCKING WHAT?” you think he’s going to get that point or care to? No way. What’s that line, the one that goes something like “God, grant me the courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to accept those I can’t.” Wise up.
Okay, I’ll STFU leaving it at that getting back to my New Year festivities.
ThymeZone
Oh yeah?
/ Darrell
GOP4Me et al
Kerry’s opposed to the death penalty too, you know.
I think that means he wishes Saddam was POTUS.
Zifnab
Did John Cole just blockquote himself? Can he do that? Is that legal?
TenguPhule
First Darrell Irony of the New Year.