Apparently there is a new form of patriotism among the super-rich:
So many superrich Americans evade taxes using offshore accounts that law enforcement cannot control the growing misconduct, according to a Senate report that provides the most detailed look ever at high-level tax schemes.
Among the billionaires cited in the report are the owner of the New York Jets football team, Robert Wood Johnson IV; the producer of the “Mighty Morphin Power Rangers” children’s show, Haim Saban; and two Texas businessmen, Charles and Sam Wyly, who the Center for Public Integrity found in 2000 were the ninth-largest contributors to President Bush.
Mr. Johnson and Mr. Saban, who are portrayed as victims in the report, are scheduled to testify today before the Senate Permanent Investigations subcommittee. They are expected to say that professional advisers assured them their deals to avoid taxes were more likely lawful than not. The Wyly brothers told the committee that they would invoke their Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination and thus were not called to testify. The report characterizes them as active participants in tax schemes.
I don’t like taxes, and I urge people to use all their options to lessen their tax burden. Legally. But this pretty clearly crosse the line, and if your tax advisor states that your deals “to avoid taxes were more likely lawful than not,” you have gone beyond the legal and recommended methods to lessen your burden, and should know better.
And these people did. They took a gamble with shades of legality, and crossed the line. I understand that someone will immediately pop in here and claim that all taz law deals with ‘shades of legaltiy,’ but I think it is pretty clear these people knew they were finessing the system.
demimondian
I don’t know that Johnson or Sabin is guinely innocent here, but I don’t think that you’re right that they should have known better.
The tax returns of the rich become incredibly complicated things very fast. If you want to truly minimize the taxes you pay, the best you can do is avoid shelters that you expect to be illegal, while pushing the limits of legality in order to actively minimize your taxes. So you wind up with very subtle, possibly-but-probably-not-illegal shelters. Sometimes, you’re wrong and take the hit, but you pay a tax advisor for the best guesses you can get sot hat you stay legal.
The problem only comes when the advisor you trust is lying to you. In that case, which seems to be what’s going on here, you really can be an innocent victim — trying, sincerely to legally minimize the taxes you pay, while being willing to pay penalties if you guess wrong, but misled about the likely legality of a particular shelter.
Zifnab
Well, yes. But there’s a difference between writing off a lunch with your co-workers as a ‘business lunch’ and writing off your pet cat as a ‘dependant you are putting through college’. These tax loopholes have existed forever (some being specifically created at the behest of political donors).
Frankly, I’m a little shocked at this too,
I mean, no one likes paying money, but I’d like to think you don’t steal your cable, try to slip through EZ Pass lanes on the toll way, and stuff your face at the samples counter of your local grocery store.
Tax evasion isn’t evading, its stealing. You’re stealing money from the 200 million Americans who do pay their taxes. You’re stealing government services and protections – the same guys that keep snake oil salesmen from selling you Fen Phen and make sure your drinking water is clean and keep your airplane traffic from crashing into itself.
I would like to think you wouldn’t drive through a carwash and then speed off, telling the manager to charge the next guy double. But that’s exactly what these billionares and their offshore accounts are doing. Like the Bush tax cuts aren’t enough, they’ve got to keep robbing the poor to pay the rich.
Disgusting.
jg
The rich dodge taxes?!!
The way I look at it if you made money in the US the government provided the environment and therefore gets a cut. Whether it was a paycheck, selling a stock or flipping some real estate you did it here using the infrastructure provided and you pay.
John Cole
Zifnab- pretty clearly I was talking about all legal options.
demimondian
Zif, evasion is not avoidance, and the IRS distinguishes between them. It’s legal and desirable to pay no more in taxes than you must. The point is to find that precise balance where you pay every cent that you must, and no more. Penalties exist to compensate for the cases where you’re wrong.
VidaLoca
Didn’t the late lamented Ken Lay say something like this w/r/t Arthur Andersen?
Tim F.
Patriotism is a good word for it. I don’t enthusiastically support our government and its initaitives the way the Wyly brothers obviously do, but unlike Wylys I take some pride in paying my fair share for the right and benefits of citizenship. People who think that patriotism is a magnet on a car really make me shake my head.
Jim Allen
Even if these guys didn’t “know” it was wrong, their tax advisors surely must have. They have some ‘splaining to do as well.
Yup. Can’t fault John for his communication skills on this one, Zifnab.
Ancient Purple
Clearly, the problem is that the rich don’t have enough tax breaks, so much so that they need to use questionable tax breaks in order to keep them from the poor house.
I mean, I can’t imagine anything worse than having to settle for the Bentley when what you really wanted was the Rolls.
I feel their insurmountable pain, agony, and anguish.
Perry Como
The biggest problem I’ve run into[0] is that you can call the IRS, ask if xyz is okay and the IRS will say yes. Then you can call them back, get someone else, and that person will say no.
Our tax system is a mess. Even the IRS can’t keep it straight.
[0] – actually the biggest problem was when the IRS said I owed $35k and hit me with a lien. My CPA went through their claim and the IRS ended up owing me $2500. How does the IRS make a $37k error?
demimondian
I know, Inspector Renault, you’re shocked, *shocked* that gambling is going on in here. By the way, sir, here are your winnings.
demimondian
Perry:
Often. Easily. Strong. Sensible.
Perry Como
I know of 3 former cow-orkers that got hit with the same thing. We all worked for BigTechCompanyThatGaveOutStockOptions and the IRS came after them too. The sad thing is they settled for a payment plan. Figured the IRS was right so they didn’t go to an accountant.
My guess is there were quite a few others that ended up paying what they didn’t owe.
:sigh:
Punchy
I had the IRS tell me via mail I owed them $250 more on top of the thousands I paid, only to find out via a FIVE MINUTE phone call with a customer service agent (not even a CPA or auditor!) that actually, they owed me $800.
Really, this Admin’s incomepetence has spread to EVERY facet of gov’t…
Kirk Spencer
Reading the article more fully contradicts some things mentioned above. One of the things that caught my eye – in counter to the “barely legal” discussion – is a tactic used by accountants and attorneys. Essentially it’s compartmentalization. Each facet is given to a separate individual or department and in itself is ‘probably legal’, but the scheme as a whole is a clear violation. Each participant says, “I didn’t know”, and gets a hand-slap at worst.
Worse, since the IRS has been gutted of agents, and the heads have directed audits so that those earning less than six figures are MORE likely to be audited than those earning more, and, well… if it’s unlikely you’ll get caught, and even if you’re caught it’s unlikely you’ll get punished, and even if you’re punished the worst effect is a bit more money out of the accounts, then why not cheat?
I agree with the Senator. Give the law some teeth, and enforce it.
Pb
As George W. Bush has said, “you’ve heard that business, haven’t you, in politics, about tax the rich? That’s why they hire accountants and lawyers, and you get stuck with the bill”! So, really, there’s no point in trying to tax them, right? That’s why he’s both cut their taxes *and* cut IRS enforcement.
Jim Allen
When did they actually stop orking cows?
Punchy
Question–do IRS auditors get bonuses based on the amount of revenue they uncover that hasn’t been paid? Is their salary tied to the amount of monetary fraud they uncover and thus re-collect?
Perry Como
I can’t blame the state of the IRS on this administration. It’s been bad for years. A friend of mine is a CPA and he has horror stories about audits. If you are ever audited, hope the agent isn’t having a bad day. Your life can become a living hell based on the mood the agent is in.
Pb
Pet cat, nothing–fetal farming, here I come!
John S.
Nobody likes taxes – except for Congress. Unfortunately, they are a necessary evil for funding things like schools, roads and other vital public infrastructure. Unlike you libertarian types, I’m not willing to hand over the stewardship of these things to the private sector because I haven’t seen any evidence that they would do a better job of handling such things. In fact, in some cases they do a worse job:
jaime
But you like roads, and hospitals, and meat inspection, and air traffic control, and police, and free parks, and…
VidaLoca
Perry,
Oh, yes you can:
[cite to the NYT article (behind their firewall) here]
[source for the blockquote above here]
Perry Como
The Bush administration messing up the IRS is like someone pissing on a pile of shit.
Paul Wartenberg
Have any of you ever *seen* the US Tax Code?!
Have you ever seen the CCH guides that ‘interpret’ the tax codes?!?! They take up 12 book shelves at my library, five times more than the Britannica and Americana encyclopedias combined.
The current tax code is a maze of loopholes and dodges that if expertly navigated can reduce a person/corporation’s tax obligations to zero (if not an unwarranted refund). All it takes for a billion dollar company is to hire an accountant/tax lawyer at $80k a year to find one loophole that ‘saves’ them $100k in taxes for that accountant to be worth the expense. And that’s just one loophole: that accountant/lawyer can sniff out HUNDREDS of loopholes. Think an average American citizen can do that? Think that an average American citizen qualifies for half the loopholes in our current tax system?
The system is f-cked. up. We need a new, and fair, tax system *now*.
John S.
Agreed.
But it isn’t going to happen with a bunch of assholes in power that attach a multi-million dollar giveaway to the wealthiest in America (on top of the exorbitant tax benefits they’ve already received in recent years) on a bill that attempts to raise the minimum wage for the poorest for the first time in a decade.
SeesThroughIt
Cue the Chappelle skit about “I plead the fizzifth!”
Derrick
I’m not sure that anyone read the WSJ story on the Wyll family this weekend. In the article, it was stated that Mr. Wyly was “loaned” a $41,000 watch by an offshore company in the Isle of Man, while his sister was “loaned” a $1million dollar painting, and the family was “loaned” a giant beach house. This is a pretty simple case of rich people taking their assets offshore to get tax-exempt protection. We can make fun of their stupidity for thinking that such a tax scheme would pass muster if ever found out, but not their ill intent in attempting to set up one. And the Bush administration lays off more estate tax lawyers, because they need to focus on not letting that “welfare queen” get some extra money for her kids.
neil
I entirely agree. And the best way to stop paying US taxes is to leave the US. I did it and I haven’t funded a war since 2005. I accept the Bush administration’s argument that those who fund violent extremists are responsible for the terror and suffering that they cause.
neil
Sorry, that should have been ‘since the end of 2004.’
Perry Como
You may still be liable to pay taxes for 10 years after you leave. I’ve looked into it.
neil
Good point, Perry. I’ve filed tax returns both years since I left, even declaring my foreign income. American citizens are obligated to pay taxes on their foreign income over a certain level (something like $80,000 for a single taxpayer with no dependents?), but my earning potential, especially in the third world, is considerably below that.
Paul L.
Nice of the New York Times not to mention who Saban donated to. And to highlight who donated to Bush..
SABAN, HAIM
LOS ANGELES,CA 90067
FOX KIDS WORLDWIDE/CEO
4/24/2006
$10,000
Democratic Senatorial Campaign Cmte
SABAN, HAIM
LOS ANGELES,CA 90067
Saban Entertainment/Chairman & CEO
1/21/2005
$5,000
Friends of Chairman Mcauliffe
SABAN, HAIM
LOS ANGELES,CA 90067
Saban Entertainment/Chairman/CEO
12/6/2005
$5,000
HILLPAC
SABAN, HAIM
LOS ANGELES,CA 90067
SABAN ENTERTAINMENT
5/17/2005
$2,100
Clinton, Hillary Rodham
neil
Making Saban the 9th-largest contributor to Hillary Clinton? Oh. In fact, not even close. Well then!
RSA
As Fitzgerald said, “The rich are not like you and me.” What I find incomprehensible is the numbers that we’re talking about: Saban, for example, is worth almost $3 billion (with a b). You’d think if he just collected what accumulated in his pants pockets every night, he could send that to the IRS and it would cover his tax burden. Instead he pays $54 million in fees to avoid presumably more taxes. Saban could buy a Ferrari every day for the next fifty years and not use up all of his net worth. Crazy.
zzyzx
The “best” part about that bill is that there’s a clause that actually reduces the minimum wage for many workers. States that passed laws saying that tipped workers get minimum wage would have that repealed in this bill.
Kirk Spencer
re the “need a fair tax now” remark – that, actually, is the problem.
Years ago, the professor teaching my first Federal Income Tax class made a statement I’ll paraphrase for you:
The reason you will have jobs is because we try to make the tax system ‘fair’. We start with something simple. Then we say “it’s not fair that churches have to pay” or “it’s not fair that businesses that got a bad break have to pay” or… And then we make it worse by trying to encourage or discourage certain behavior. “I know, let’s let everyone who uses green technology get a tax break” for an example.
There is this proposal out there called FairTax. And it sounds so good – get rid of the IRS, get rid of the Federal income tax and a few other taxes, and just pay it all for with a national sales tax. The problem is that in the dozens of pages the House Resolution includes are a host of exceptions and exemptions to “keep it fair” and “encourage/discourage certain behavior”. Which means that it’s absolutely worthless.
When solving humanities’ problems, Mencken was right. Any solution that is obvious and simple is wrong.
RSA
“Fairness” is pretty much in the eye of the beholder, as is obvious from listening to proponents of FairTax, or more generally of progressive, regressive, flat, or head taxes.
Dave
I honestly don’t get it.
Why is it someone with their kind of money has to steal from the public coffers. I mean, really will paying taxes cramp their lifestyle? Will paying taxes leave them in a spot where they can’t afford their lifestyle? No.
I truly don’t get it. How much money do you actually need? Is there an amount that these people will ever get to where they turn around and say ok. That’s enough.
I guess not, and apparently in pursuit of “more” it’s ok for these people to steal.
I’m solidly middle class, own a home and I manage to pay my taxes, and live like I want to. Do I like paying taxes? Of course not. Does it pinch? Hell yeah. I also think that a good percentage of my tax money is wasted. However, it’s the price paid for living in this country.
…and while we are on the subject of taxes, next person that proposes yet one more tax cut for the wealthy will get my foot up their ass.
Paul L.
PRIVATE SECTOR; A Cartoon Giant’s Rich Reward
Tom in Texas
zz;
Are you saying that they are eliminating the $5+/hr limit in states like California for waiters? How would it supercede state law?
The Other Steve
See in Paul L.’s world… donating to Democrats is evil. Donating to Republicans is normal.
John S.
Leave it to our resident nutjob Paul L. to politicize tax evasion…
How is that CSI photo examination of the faked incident at Qana coming along? You hire that holocaust denier who debunked the photographs of mass graves in the concentration camps yet?
The Other Steve
Apparently Section 402 of the bill overrides state law.
RSA
Good luck getting by the Secret Service.
Tom in Texas
Will the nanny state ever end?
The Other Steve
Although, to be fair. I don’t really think I ought to have to pay taxes, considering my voice isn’t represented in the government.
So maybe they should work to make these tax shelters available to us middle income people.
zzyzx
I found the link here: http://www.gop.gov/Committeecentral/bills/hr5970.asp
Paul L.
I am sure the opposite is true for you. “donating to Democrats is good. Donating to Republicans is evil.”
I do not care who someone donates to.
Just noting that Saban is a rich democrat and everyone knows that democrats send in extra money with their taxes because they know the government needs the money. Even when Bush cut their taxes, they refused to pay the lower rate. Just check Gore’s/Clinton’s/Kerry’s tax returns.
neil
Nice of Paul L. not to mention that Saban donated the maximum amount of $2,000 to George W. Bush’s reelection campaign.
Paul L.
John S. Holocaust deniers are the side you support Hezbollah/Iran.
Where Are the Bodies from Qana?
How about the 9/11 was a inside job and the diebold voting machines?
Paul L.
Where did you find that.
You going to give me a link or do I have to search for it?
Did he hold any fund-raisers for Bush like he did for Clinton.
neil
From the same OpenSecrets page that you provided a link for! Sheesh. Of course you have to look at the 2004 election cycle, since Bush is not running in ’06.
Lee
Here is a thought I had about corporations that avoid paying taxes.
IIRC, there was an article that stated Enron while cooking it books also cooked it tax returns. So that for many years its balance sheet had enormous profits, it tax returns showed a loss so it was due back money from the federal government.
Have corporations pay taxes off what their balance sheet states NOT what they turn in to the federal government. That way the government and the shareholders get the same story.
Just a thought…
I made this suggestion to a CPA friend of mine and his only response was “but it doesn’t work that way”. When I asked “then why can’t it” he had no real answer.
Paul L.
Yep, he’s a republician. Check out the rest of the donations on that page.
He gave Dick Gephardt, John Edwards and Wesley Clark the same amount.
John S.
Paul L. says:
#1 I am Jewish with Holocaust survivors in my family you fucking piece of shit.
#2 Please show me where ever stated I am on the side of Hezbollah/Iran you fucking piece of shit.
Are these your latest tinfoil hat theories, Paul? Sorry, but I don’t buy those any more than the “Qana was faked” bullshit that you’re peddling.
Paul Wartenberg
It doesn’t matter who the rich are giving their money to (yes, they did this crap during the Clinton years too, although under the Bush years it’s become so damn blatant): it matters who the rich are taking their money *from* (corporate welfare spending/earmarks from the gov’t teat, tax ‘savings/refunds’ that could have gone to much-needed social/education funding).
Pb
From Wikipedia:
I suppose that if you’re on the far-right, even the center looks like a bunch of raging leftists…
SeesThroughIt
I am right there with you, Dave. So many of these tax issues ultimately boil down to the question of whom you have more sympathy for: the poor or the rich.
Personally, my sympathy is with the poor. They actually need help. I’m not exactly shedding tears over a guy whose pile of lucre is measured in millions. And if that pile is measured in billions, then you don’t need any fucking help at all–you’ve got a lifestyle few on this planet can even dream about, and tinkering with the top marginal rate to raise your tax burden (even if that raise amounts millions of dollars, which it won’t) makes nary a dent on your lifestyle. Neither would actually, you know, paying what you’re supposed to pay.
Of course, to ardent supply-siders, this makes me (and you, it would seem) pinko commie bastards who absolutely loathe the rich and want to see them punished for their success. And if we take in more taxes from the rich and use that money to fund welfare programs for the poor, then that is wealth redistribution, comrade!
Davebo
OK, these folks obviously need to learn the “Willie Nelson method of blaming my financial advisors”.
First, through either your own malfeasance or through simple trust of your accountants, get into a load of debt with the IRS.
Then, have your friends purchase you’re auctioned off property and sell it back to you at pennies on the dollar.
Finally, produce a new CD, call it.. I don’t know.. The IRS Tapes. Watch as it far surpasses your past album sales raking in tons of money and making you richer than you were before the IRS came calling.
Of course the tricky part is that you need to be nearly universally loved by hundreds of thousands of fans but…
It could work.
Andrew
Pffft, like any of you peons would have jobs if it wasn’t for the largesse of the tax-avoiding super rich.
demimondian
Su-weet! Paul L has moved up from the Confederated Junkee to Little Green Spitballs! Hext, we’ll be reading quotes from…I don’t know, Justin Raimondo, Holocaust denier extraordinare, maybe.
Hey, Paul, I think you should come up here to Seattle work with the Discovery Institute, teaching the “controversy”. Seattle is a great place to collect all you corn flakes together.
demimondian
We prefer the expression “those of the super rich who insist on paying their fair share.”
Tax Analyst
Well, I didn’t have time to read all the above posts here, but as an actual “Tax Analyst” I figure this is as good a time for me to weigh in as any. I happen to be teaching a “Basic Tax Preparation” course at this particular time. Here is how we start the course (using a prepared text in this instance). First, a quote from Justice Learned Hand: “Anyone may so arrange his affairs that his taxes shall be as low as possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which will best pay the Treasury; there is not even a patriotic duty to increase one’s taxes.” OK, that’s Justice Hand’s take on Taxes. What it SHOULD boil down to is that our duty as Citizen Taxpayers is to pay “Our Fair and Legitimate share”. Now to deviate from the text, what I teach and stress that the Preparer’s goal and duty to his client is to attain the Lowest LEGITIMATE Tax. The Preparer works for his client, not the IRS. This includes interpreting “gray” areas towards the advantage of his client. To me that means analyzing the law and the Taxpayer’s particular situation and determining if a plausible case can be made for interpreting it in a way favorable to the client. Note I use the word “plausible”. Frivolous interpretations might make a client snicker and think he’s going to be able to get over on the IRS with it, but chances are he won’t. “Frivolous” has a special meaning in Tax cases and what it means is “You are in trouble and it’s going to cost you a lot of money by the time this is all over. Oh yeah, and maybe your Preparer, too.” It turns out that a lot of Big-time Tax outfits (Arthur Anderson, Ernst & Young, to name a couple)got deeply into “Frivolous” (and “ludicrous”) avoidance schemes in the late 90’s, early 2000’s…and now many of them no longer even exist. I personally encourage my students to steer clear of clients who are looking for outright Tax AVOIDANCE angles, it’s too easy to get sucked into these things and although it might be lucrative you will be spending a lot of your time looking over your shoulder. Now if you really want to home in on the abuse you should be looking at folks who have enough $$$ and influence to have the LAW tailor-made to their situation…to me that’s where the real abuse is…well, consider that my 2 cents worth, after being indexed for inflation…
RSA
I wonder if being inside the pants of the super rich makes it easier to believe in the trickle-down effect?
Tax Analyst
OH…just one more thing – Exemption phase-outs…to briefly explain. Generally, you get an “Exemption” for yourself, another for your Spouse and one for each Dependent, usually children. In 2005 each of those reduced your taxable income by $3,200. There was a rule where these Exemptions got “phased-out” at certain income levels. In Tax Year 2005 starting at $218,950 for a Married Couple Filing Jointly and topping at $341,450. Above that number the Taxpayer gets no reduction for his exemptions. Amounts in between those numbers were phased down by a formula. Starting in Tax Year 2006 Congress has decreed that everyone, no matter how high their AGI, shall have no more than 2/3 of their Exemption phased out. The Exemptions are up to $3300 each for ’06. So someone earning BILLIONS of dollars would still receive an $1100 exemption for themselves, spouse and each dependent. Which at a tax rate of about 35% will probably translate into about $400 more in their pocket for each exemption. My question…WHY? Does, oh…say, for example, Dick Cheney need $800 more in his pocket? Your Congress At Work…
jg
Because the money goes to government services and programs in which they will never partake.
The interesting trick is how they got half of the remaining 95% of us to buy into them needing a tax break.
madmatt
Thank god the administration slashed the number of IRS lawyers who work on this sort of crime.
Tax Analyst
Don’t count on “Tax Simplification” anytime soon, either. Even IF the Federal Government passed such a bill you would find most States “non-conforming” to it, or opting out. They still need to raise revenues…many states, unlike the Federal Government actually FORBID an unbalanced budget in their separate constitutions, hence must raise adequate funding to keep things running each year. Every time you “Simplify” the Federal Tax situation you “Un-Simplify” the State part of your Tax Equation. You will have “add-backs” flowing out of both nostrils when you look at your State Income Tax return.
Kimmitt
Unsurprisingly, Tax Analyst’s post is really worth reading.
Hey, man, I check the boxes.
The Other Steve
Oh my God! He’s bipartisan!
What a fruitcake you must be Paul L.
RSA
Social services and programs, no, but the rich will be at the front of the line to take advantage of at least some results of government spending, such as what flows into (and out of) NIH.
DougJ
How come we’re not hearing the good news about the civilians who died in Qana?
John S.
Because there weren’t any civilians who died in Qana.
Didn’t you get Paul’s memo, Doug?
The Other Steve
OH MY GOD! Initial reports didn’t match up with what was later found.
That’s NEVER happened before! This clearly must prove they’re all lying and it never happened!
Sheesh. Not surprising this shit came from the bugger-kids at Little Green Fruitcakes.
The Other Steve
It’s true! The same guys who told us Hillary Clinton killed Vince Foster confirmed it!
Perry Como
Jesus?
Davebo
Thanks for the comments Tax Analyst.
But sadly I must inform you that none of those quoted in the story are hauling boxes down to H & R Block to get their returns filed.
And in this case, all of the information you provided, while helpful to some to be sure, is totally irrelevant.
That and only an idiot takes tax advice from Blog comments.
DougJ
Is it possible that some of these civilians faked their own deaths to garner sympathy from the gullible international community? Or perhaps that some even blew up in their own houses.
This is a culture that values martyrdom above all. I wouldn’t put it past them to pull a stunt like that.
Darrell
Of course Hezbollah terrorists would kill civilians or blow up their houses or try and draw Israeli fire into civilian areas. They are too honorable.
Best to ridicule the very possibility of that.. as DougJ is doing.
Jill
good one, dougj! lol
Darrell
Given all the inconsistent reports of events and body counts involving Qana, I think it’s best to assume Israel is guilty of another war crime.
DougJ
I think that what Darrell suggests is quite likely: that Hizbollah actually blew up the houses — with the possible cooperation of the people in the houses — and then tricked Israel into admitting they had bombed the village.
Darrell
It appears they are guilty, and will likely be fined (with jail time?). US has bank data sharing agreements with many countries. I was surprised to learn that even in the Cayman Islands, hidden bank account capital of the world, the US can track down American accounts there in cooperation with the CI govt.
DougJ
Is it possible that Hizbollah has contracted the services of a magician like David Copperfield to make it look though there were corspes and bombed out buildings when there really were none? Maybe he did it to impress Claudia Schiffer. Isn’t “Copperfield” a Muslim name?
DougJ
Why are we even discussing the tax schemes of the rich? Surely, it’s all small potatos compared to the crimes of Kofi Annan. Think about it: Anna, Qana, they practically sound the same. Kofi must have had a hand in the fake massacre. It’s got his fingerprints all over it.
Punchy
Please provide a link to this accusation. Thanks.
Darrell
and then by strange occurence, the building Israel allegedly shot didn’t collapse for another 7 hours after taking an Israeli missile. Best not to wait for more details before jumping to conclusions is what I say.
Andrew
Can’t we blame welfare queens and their get rich quick schemes for the bombing of Qana?
Darrell
It wasn’t an “accusation”. Don’t any of the left wing websites where you get all your information mention all the inconsistencies? Here are a few of them (I’m sure you can find the same info on other sources if you bother to look)
1) It was reported that the building collapsed 7 hours after Israel attacked it
2) Note the green helmeted guy on the scene in Qana who appears in many Hezbollah propoganda pics in different locales. Just a coincidence
3) Overstated body counts. 54, then 28
4)Many of the photos of the dead didn’t have much dust on them, consistent with the collapse of a building
Given that Hezbollah is so honorable, it’s probably best not to question any of these inconsistencies.
Darrell
Have you heard about the Karl Rove/Diebold links to Qana? Strange stuff. Also, I read that there were 5 dancing Israelis in the vicinity taking photos.
Darrell
Punchy, I answered you already, but my comment is ‘awaiting moderation’ because I had 3 links embedded.
Perry Como
Darrell, your Party is calling you.
Davebo
The Cayman’s have been that way for years, which is why they now have diversified into ships registries for income.
These days Panama seems to be one of the preferred destinations for, shall we say, creative banking enterprises.
demimondian
W00t! Hey, guys, did you know that Darrell is a structural engineer! No, really: how else could he build this Prime. Fact-resistant. Strong. Serious. Sleek. Jackalope(TM)?
After all, structural damage always leads to immediate failure. That’s why we keep people out of seriously damaged buildings here in the United States — they never fall down later. Microquakes and other random earth movements are unheard of here on Earth!
Strong. Sleek. Serious. Smooth.
DougJ
Best not to wait for more details before jumping to conclusions is what I say.
So you think maybe that’s it? That Hezbollah blew up the buildings themselves? Or do you think it was a David Copperfield magic trick? I’m trying to pin you down here.
Was Joe Wilson involved? Maybe he smuggled some yellow cake out of Niger and blew the town up with that?
Let’s have it, Darrell: how did it happen?
Darrell
That was just one among several inconsistencies. Yes, it’s possible the building could have collapsed later as a result. It’s just not typically what happens. Since my earlier comment is awaiting moderation, I’ll repost another
Note the green helmeted guy on the scene in Qana who appears in many Hezbollah propoganda pics in different locales. Just a coincidence I’m sure. No staging at all.
Best to assume Hezbollah would never stage such a thing, or kill civilians, or even blow up their house hours later.
Darrell
So you’re suggesting Hezbollah would never do such a thing, right? Because the only other possibility is David Copperfield magic.. or of course, dancing Israelis.
DougJ
So you’re saying Hizbollah did it, then, or you’re not? Stop being a pussy and say your piece.
Darrell
I noted the large number of banks when I was there 2 years ago. Interesting observation, but I’m surprised that Panama wouldn’t have a similar bank data share program with the US given our government’s good relations with them.
DougJ
Tell me what happened, you little pussy, or shut up.
Darrell
You’ve already said it was either Israelis or David Copperfield magic. Given Hezbollah’s honorable behavior, best to immediately remove them from all suspicion in Qana.
John S.
OH MY GOD!
That is such a strange coincidence, because the north tower of the World Trade Center was allegedly struck by a hijacked plane and it didn’t collapse for nearly another TWO HOURS after taking a direct hit from the massive jumboliner travelling at several hundred miles per hour.
Because, you know, if it takes a 110-story building a couple of hours to collapse due to structural damage it doesn’t make any sense that a small house with structural damage would take a few hours more.
By the way, Darrell…
YOU ARE A FUCKING IDIOT.
Darrell
Oooh, I love it when you do you cyber tough-guy thing Doug. Hey, when you’re an idiot, you must IMMEDIATELY declare what happened, rather than acknowledge the errors and inconsistencies in earlier reports, then wait for more information to come in.
Only pussies care about facts anyway.
SeesThroughIt
POTD
Steve
This guy would probably agree with you.
In both cases, seven hours! You can’t make this shit up.
John S.
Yeah. I noticed a lot of the photos of the World Trade Center included shots of the same people who were obviously rescue workers on the scene. Just a coincidence I’m sure. Or maybe if you’re a first responder you have a tendency to be on the scene a lot when bad shit happens.
By the way, Darrell…
YOU ARE STILL A FUCKING IDIOT.
Perry Como
Is this part of your theory about Israel being behind 9/11? When a bomb/plane hits a building, that building won’t collapse later?
You should call Scully and Mulder.
Zifnab
My bad.
demimondian
I’ll bet that the guys in helmets near Ground Zero claimed to be firefighters, too. And they probably carried radios in order to coordinate their -rescue- propaganda operations, d’you think?
Bill Arnold
Paul L, not sure I understand your point. Perhaps the reason they got caught (assuming guilt)/were targeted by the IRS is that they were heavy givers to the Democratic party?
(Is the IRS no longer an attack dog of the ruling party?)
DougJ
Let’s see what kind of possible explanations we’ve got going so far:
(1) Hezbollah blew up the buidlings and fooled the Israelis into thinkint the Israelis did it. That seems to be the most plausible at this point.
(2) It didn’t happen at all.
Anything else? Darrell, are you out of work? You remind me a lot of my chronically unemployed uncle? Though you are better-spoken than he is, I’ll give you that. I doubt he can type, let alone in complete sentences. Maybe I’m selling him short.
Seriously, though, what’s your deal, in terms of all the bitterness? You are out of work, aren’t you?
neil
Nasrallah Knew.
John S.
Sadly, this is what members of the 101st Chairborne do while sitting in mommy’s basement licking the cheetohs dust off their fingers.
They put on their patented Stuponitron© thinking helmets and use their expertise (derived from watching every episode of CSI) to examine photographs and unearth groundbreaking facts that clearly show the liberal media are in the employ of Hezbollah.
demimondian
Wow. Steve, the wtc7 site is pure metallic leaf head protection gold. Priceless. Thanks for finding it.
DougJ
Looks like Darrell’s gone. Guess I struck a nerve.
neil
He was sick of all of your absurd conspiracy theories, DougJ.
Who could possibly believe that Israel would kill 60 civilians? 20, maybe, but 60? Impossible!
demimondian
Sorry. I left a link out of my previous post: pure metallic leaf head protection lost its clicky decoration.
demimondian
Maybe it had to do with your calling him a -pussy- Boy Scout Troop Leader?
Perry Como
I think he’s calling in for orders from Lt. Gen. Hindrocket. Expect a strafing of non-sequiturs followed by a flanking manuever from two squads of partisan vitriol.
DougJ
I think he really is out of work. If so, I’ll have to lay off that line of attack. I was just probing for weakness.
Steve
I have a real issue with 9/11 conspiracy junkies, I want to punch them in the face. I had a nice 27th floor view from next door to the WTC site earlier today, and they really need to get some fucking construction done, by the way. It’s been almost five years!
What strikes me, and I mean this quite seriously, is how Darrell uses the exact same turns of phrase as the 9/11 nutters I’ve spent so many hours arguing with at places like Daily Kos.
“How do you explain such-and-such highly suspicious discrepancy?”
“Why would it take 7 hours for the building to fall down?”
“Oh, so you’re saying the government would never tell us a lie?”
“All I’m saying is that there are unanswered questions, and we need to wait for further investigation.”
Conspiracy theorists just love their little code phrases that suggest they are merely looking for impartial scientific industry and YOU are the intolerant ideologue. But it’s not hard to see through them.
Perry Como
Every time I ride through that station it pisses me off. Then I look at the “Freedom (Fries) Tower” design and think wtf?!
demimondian
I don’t know. I’m starting to think that a park with a hole in the middle might be a better symbol of the horror of 9/11 than any building could ever be, sort of like the fact that _Guernica_ was in the MOMA, not in Spain for all those years. (Never mind that I never went to see it while it was in New York…sigh.)
I like to compare them to the Discovery Institute folks, “teaching the controvery” when there *is* no controversy outside of their own minds.
Steve
I always liked the design that looked like a giant middle finger facing east. Then again, this is New York.
Perry Como
Still my favorite too. Every one of the original pitches was horrible. Leave it to some random interwebetrons photoshopper to come up with the best idea.
I’m still wondering who is going to sign leases for the top of the Freedom Tower. Alot the financials have moved to my side of the river. And really, who wants to attack Jersey?
chopper
no fair, i was gonna bring that up. you’re not checking your secret leftist order-of-posting-succession pamphlet! i’m supposed to be next, and slide bats cleanup.
demimondian
Slide’s on the seven-day DL while he “visits the beach”, so somebody else had to take his place in the line-up.
Look, kid, don’t take it so hard. It’s not like you were sent down to the minors.
Yet.
Steve
I’ll tell you who – people who like cheap square footage. My bosses would do it in a heartbeat, although the staff would completely freak out.
chopper
you’re pinch hitting for slide? who’s the DH anyways?
demimondian
If I were a democratic or republican party operative in New York, I’d be bidding for square footage up there in a second.
demimondian
No, WHO’s on second. What’s DH.
Steve
We don’t really have a Republican party in New York, but yeah.
Maybe we could even put our crisis management center up there, to show the world how unafraid we are. Just like Rudy did!
demimondian
Sorry, I meant the state, not the city, but, yeah, I get your point.
Andrew
You know who I hate more than Intelligent Design supporters? WTC conspiracy theorists.
I think we should force them to live together nation-wide Real World episode with commentary by a snarky gay Latino.
John S.
Only if the snarky gay Latino is also a Boy Scout leader.
Steve
I also meant the state.
demimondian
Survivor, Conspiracy Scene Investigations. Tribal warfare at it’s very best. Starting tomorrow night at 9PM (8PM central) on ABC.
DougJ
Come on — you’re not excited about Fasso and MacFarland?
demimondian
C’mon! No love for Survivor, CSI? Hey, I thought it was clever!
[snif]
demimondian
Faso I get DougJ, but I’m not cathing MacFarland. Can you help an ultramontaine New Yorker once from upstate?
Krista
demi – sorry hon, I was distracted by RockStar. Dude’s singing a Sublime song, and not doing a bad job.
Mary
Crap — Rock Star’s on? Has Dilana been up yet?
DougJ
MacFarland is running against Hillary. I use the word “running” loosely.
Perry Como
I think the issue of Hillary offing Vince Foster should be a big one in this campaign.
demimondian
Oh, yeah, him! New York’s very own Katherine Harris. Special.
rachel
I’d just like to point out two things:
1) Our tax code is a horrible, complicated mess that bewilders and befuddles anybody who’s not an accountant.
2) This is *not the IRS’s fault*. The IRS’s job is to only enforce what Congress has decreed to be the law WRT taxes. Whenever you hear a representative lament our awful tax code, remember that it’s *his* job to fix it.
tBone
Look, moonbat, it wouldn’t even be an issue if Hillary would have the decency to quit digging up Foster’s body and having sex with it.
Perry Como
Her, actually. Serious. Strong. Smart.
Perry Como
I bet there is some corner of the interwebetronamations (now with TUBES!) that someone has suggested that.
Darrell
Yeah, you can really “see right through me” right asshole? Because the WTC collapse, fully investigated by NISF and others, is analogous as you suggest to the Qana situation which happened just a few days ago, still is sorting out inconsistencies.
I’ve said this before about Steve, and I’ll say it again now. He feels more comfortable arguing with cartoonish stereotypes of conservatives than he does real conservatives. Hence, his dishonest analogy with 9/11 conspiracy theorists suggesting he’s dealt with the “same arguements” etc when Qana is a different situation. Steve really and truly is a dishonest asshole. He’ll never admit it of course. But it’s true. He’s a prick. He’s dishonest as hell (note the dishonest comparison to the fully investigated WTC collapse), posturing as some bullshit ‘moderate voice’. He’s a joke
Darrell
Hey, after Jenin, I think it makes total sense to jump to conclusions when arab terrorists tell us the ‘truth’, right aholes?
Because the only other explanation can be David Copperfield magic. See how it works in the ‘reality based’ world of fantasy?
DougJ
What’s up with the new website, Darrell?
Also, how come I never get a full paragraph of abuse from you the way Steve does? I’ve been rude and insulting. I feel like I’m not really getting under your skin.
Zifnab
The IRS isn’t really at fault for inventing the tax code. You can thank Congress for that (and for the 40 billion loopholes that let shit like this slide). But the IRS is at fault for being a bunch of jackbooted thugs when it comes to enforcement. If you ever saw the movie “Catch Me If You Can”, you get to see what the IRS does when it goes after someone – freezing assets, driving said person out of business, seizing all assets, and generally making life hell. At least, that’s the old IRS. I’ve heard there have been a number of major reforms. They’re more like used car salesmen now, willing to put you on a painful blood-sucking installment plan that leaves you paying ten times the original price of the debt just to keep the money flowing out of you.
Darrell
DougJ, please tell us why it’s SO out of the realm of possibility that Hezbollah would kill civilians and blow up their houses? Because they’re so honorable, right? Is it because you don’t think they’ve done it before? Please tell us, so we can understand exactly where you’re coming from. I know you’re fucked up ahole.. but I want everyone else to see who you are too.
tBone
So Darrell the kookbat thinks terrorists tell the truth. Scream it from the rooftops so America can see how extreme you terrorist-loving, Jew-hating whackjobs really are.
demimondian
I think D-boy is trying to outsmart the troll-plonking script. Neither PC nor I was particularly clever about trying to parse the troll’s name out, and the web site dodges the parser very elegantly.
Where have I seen that kind of underhanded stuff before? Damn. Darrell’s a spammer. Of course.
tBone
Yeah, nice url. Do you know where your Boy Scouts are, America?
Darrell
You pretend as if they haven’t, and as if they don’t know. They “believed” Jenin, and now they believe Qanan. With Jenin, they believed a fucking arab lie with no basis. With Qanan, there is no solid basis yet, but they ‘believe’ nonetheless.
Darrell
I think it’s so “reality based” to believe, as DougJ believes.. that Hezbollah would never stage an atrocity. I think that makes the most sense.
John S.
Projection, thy name be Darrell.
I particualrly like how you scathe Steve for “dishonestly” comparing the incident at Qana – where they are still sorting out inconsistencies – to the fully investigated incident at the WTC and then one short post later compare the incident at Qana – where they are still sorting out inconsistencies – to the fully investigated incident at Jenin.
You’re a real piece of work.
tBone
Huh. Is that worse than believing a regular lie? And what distinguishes a “fucking arab” lie from a plain ol’ garden-variety lie? Does it come with hummus?
Darrell
Let’s be clear.. There are LOTS of inconsistencies in the reporting surrounding Qaanan. Yet lefist scum like DougJ ridicule the very possibility that the arabs “might” have staged a lie, as they did in Jenin. How inconceivable! I think that it is so reality based of DougJ. I think it shows how intelligent and rational he is, that he would not even question the inconsistencies (and there are plenty, as there were with Jenin) surrounding Qanan. MUST ridicule anyone who questions
JeninQanan.Darrell
You’ve already been proven a liar earlier John..save your anger for blackeye you’ll give your wife in the trailer.
Perry Como
Not to mention how Strong. Smart.
tBone
Yeah, don’t be so angry, you stupid leftist scum.
John S.
It’s funny that you keep bringing up Jenin, Darrell, because it makes two interesting points. One you are aware of:
The other, you seem to casually gloss over:
But terrorists hide amongst civilians!
So the death of innocent civilians is unavoidable, right? I mean THIS IS WAR!
Oh.
And you know, that doesn’t sound ANYTHING like what is going on no, does it?
Educate thyself, Darrell.
Zifnab
Arabs only lie during sex.
Darrell
I think it’s so ‘reality based’ to ignore all inconsistencies in the evenet surrounding Qanan. And so rational and intelligent to assume that Hezbollah terrorists would never stage an atrocity (hello, Jenin!). Irregardless of what really happened, the knee jerk assumptions made by DougJ and other leftist pieces of dogshit, says it all about what hateful morons you truly are. No doubt you consider yourselves normal human beings
John S.
By you? Hardly.
But NICE FUCKING STRAWMAN!
Really detracts from the fact that I just caught you in a blatant act of bullshit.
But you don’t need to be proven to be a liar. It’s a constant, like pi and the force of gravity.
tBone
And let’s not forget, in addition to being pieces of dogshit, scum, vermin, and hateful morons – the Left is also so angry. All they know how to do is call people names.
Steve
What’s with Israel apologizing for this Qana thing? Why, they must assume Hezbollah always tells the truth!
What Darrell doesn’t get is that “raising questions on right-wing blogs” != “jury is still out.”
Being called dishonest by Darrell is a badge of honor, obviously. Being called dishonest 4 times in the same paragraph is like winning the Nobel Prize. Powerline truncates an audio from John Dingell, Think Progress gives the full quote, and Darrell’s conclusion is that THINK PROGRESS is “dishonest as hell.”
Yeah, you keep telling it like it is, Darrell. Your sense of truth and fiction is so keen, someone must have shoved a polygraph machine up your ass.
Darrell
I didn’t “gloss over” any of that, you dishonest prick. That’s the first time it’s been posted. My bet is that you don’t actually realize you’re a fucking idiot yet.
John S.
Fixed.
tBone
And he had a keyboard, monitor, and Ethernet cable up there already – in addition to his head, of course. Gotta be getting kind of crowded up there by now.
John S.
Selective editing, you dishonest prick.
That’s what you do.
You wave Jenin around like a banner to highlight the willingness of extremists to stage atrocities while ignoring that the same incident highlighted Israel’s complete disregard for human rights and the safety of civilians.
Darrell
Yeah Steve, you’re the fucking ‘voice of truth’ with your dishonest comparisons of Qana with the WTC. You run like a fucking cockroach when someone points to your dishonesty. Typical.
The Other Steve
I heard that the Hezbollah who were in the building were told to leave the day before it was bombed.
Can you please quit floating around conspiracy stories, Darrell? You’re starting to sound like those whackos who thought the ’93 bombing at the WTC was a small yield nuke.
Darrell
Powerline quoted John Dingell in context in which he fully explained himself. Steve parrots the lie that his audio was “edited”. God you scumbags are liars. Seriously you phonies, how do you live with yourselves?
tBone
It’s only selective editing if scummy fucking verminous dogshit idiot name-calling Leftist cockroaches do it, John. Get with the program.
John S.
Teachers should put your shit onto celluloid and project it onto the wall when they teach about Freudian projection.
John S.
Sigmund Freud’s corpse just got an erection.
Darrell
Israel lost 23 of their finest, rather than ‘glass’ Jenin, which was definitely an option within their power. It shows what a piece of shit you truly are to characterize Israel’s actions there as a “complete disregard for human rights”, but typical of the left to say such a thing. You’re a scumbag John.. I think you already know that.
John S.
Don’t hate me, Darrell. Hate Amnesty International:
And hate Human Rights Watch while you’re at it:
Wanna keep going, Darrell?
tBone
Hmmm. Darrell’s right, sometimes a little selective editing can still reveal the truth of the matter.
Darrell
Yeah, I do. Those reports and assessments were based on fucking lies, still believe by only stupidest of the stupid.. and of course, those who ‘need’ to believe. If TOS and Steve had an ounce of honor, they’d agree with me and tell you to go fuck off too. But they don’t.. so just me telling you the truth
Darrell
John S., still believing in the arab lies about Jenin. Embrace John S. leftists.. he’s one of your own, he’s one of you. He helps define the left.
Richard 23
Will the Senator yield?
What is Qanan?
Are you a cockroach?
Why do you hate Israel?
tBone
Congrats, John S! Say hi to Cindy Sheehan, Michael Moore and Ward Churchill for us.
demimondian
One morning, when -Gregor Samsa- D-boy woke from troubled dreams, he found
himself transformed in his bed into a horrible vermin. He lay on
his armour-like back, and if he lifted his head a little he could
see his brown belly, slightly domed and divided by arches into stiff
sections. The bedding was hardly able to cover it and seemed ready
to slide off any moment. His many legs, pitifully thin compared
with the size of the rest of him, waved about helplessly as he
looked.
John S.
YES!
I finally make Darrell’s head explode. It definitely seemed a bit messy at the end, there. But I have to do my part in helping to “define the left”.
By the way, which parts of that were “fucking lies”, exactly?
I eagerly await the Senator’s response.
Richard 23
How Kafka-esque of you, demi. Wouldn’t it be nice if our little Darrell would metamorphose into a beautiful butterfly? And fly away!
Steve
Notice how Darrell has to change what I said to accuse me of “parroting”? Isn’t that “honest” of him?
John S.
Wikipedia is run by Arabs? Imagine that…
demimondian
It’s a tough job, but somebody has to do it.
I’ve been thinking about Kafka a lot recently. Guantanamo, for instance, makes me think of _The Trial_. Darrell makes me think of _Metamorphosis_.
CaseyL
The IRS leans heaviest on lower income taxpayers because lower income taxpayers are unlikely to be able to hire accountants and lawyers to challenge the audit. “Low hanging fruit,” in corporate-speak.
Steve
More “honesty” from Darrell… I say he sounds like a 9/11 conspiracy whacko, to him this means I’m “comparing Qana with the WTC”… so honest, no wonder he’s universally regarded as the arbiter of honesty.
Perry Como
“Expect a strafing of non-sequiturs followed by a flanking manuever from two squads of partisan vitriol.”
In other words, stay the course.
John S.
That damned leftist kook United Nations, still believing in the arab lies about Jenin…
I think the Senator is right. It really is “us” vs. “them”:
John S.
I hear the Iranians of petrified of the Micronesian Navy, renowned for their military prowess.
demimondian
Careful, John — you should read the history about the UN investigation before you overread them.
Israel asked for two things, one of which was reasonable, and the other, in my opinion, was not. The government asked that an expert in war crimes law be a full member of the investigating commission, because Israel felt that the previous claims of war crimes had been incorrect. That’s a perfectly reasonable demand. Israel also asked for immunity for its soldiers before presenting them to the commission. I felt that was unreasonable, although it’s perhaps ironic that no charges were ever even proferred to The Hague.
Either way, the case is much more subtle than you’re making it.
John S.
*are petrified
Steve
I actually don’t know the first thing about Jenin, so I’m going to have to sit this one out… mind you, I see no reason to doubt Darrell’s honesty.
Richard 23
Aww, no more double D? Maybe he’s googling up more material or perhaps checking the latest articles at Uncyclopedia.
demimondian
Personally, one of the things I rely on here is Darrell’s accuracy and thoroughness.
DougJ
Okay, Darrell, you’ve been good enough to give me a few solid paragraphs of insults. And that makes me feel better. So I’ll bite and actually argue you with you: if Hezbollah were the ones who blew up that village, then why did Israel apologize for it?
DougJ
“The arabs”? No one here calls Israel “the jews” — why do you call Hizbollah “the arabs”?
Perry Como
Mitzvah?
DougJ
I like spelling it “Qaanan” too.
Richard 23
Because Israel is better than the Hezbo cockroaches, dummy! The bugs are evil and never apologize for anything. Israel apologizes just in case because they’re the good guys.
I’ve already seen this answered by the borg elsewhere.
Andrew
Okay, I think I’ve got a pretty good cast list for the Surreal Life 8: You Won’t Get Crazier Than This:
Robert Wood Johnson IV
Ward Churchill
Darrell
Roger Clinton
Michael Behe
Doug Feith
Rita Cosby
Mel Gibson
Alan Dershowitz
Green Helmet Guy
Pb
That’d be God’s Own Party, no doubt…
jaime
When pulled over by police, Darrell asked the officer “Are you a Fucking Arab?”
Perry Como
So, for the last media cycle everything has been focused on Israel and Lebanon. What about Iraq? Isn’t Iraq our keystone of democracy in the Middle East? There’s an elected, nay, a democratic government, so Iraq is the role model for peace and prosperity. Like President Reagan said in his famous speech about the Evil Empire, “Regimes planted by bayonets…take root.”
(someone can explain this to Darrell later)
jaime
I don’t think much sinks in to Travis Bickle in khaki.
Perry Como
I’ve been holding back the next rhetorical bomb. I’m waiting for Darrell to walk into it.
Richard 23
I think I’ve found Darrell’s blog: REAL WMD’S Revealing the Enemies of America & Allies=left (W)ing (M)edia & (D)emocrat(‘S)!
Check it out! It positively sizzles!
John S.
You sure are in a “lecturing” sort of mood lately. You need to get down off your Israel soapbox.
You feel compelled to defend Israel from the slightest whiff of wrongdoing on every thread where the topic is brought up. The case of Jenin is much less subtle than you’re making it. I don’t care how “reasonable” you think Israel’s demands were. They effectively stonewalled any further investigation into the matter. I wonder why that would be?
Of course, when one examines the allegations against Israel at Jenin and compares it to the headlines of today (or of the last 60 years for that matter) they would immediately jump to your conclusion that the situation is so much more nuanced than I’m trying to make it.
I don’t know what your agenda is , demimondian, but I’ll tell you what mine is. As a Jew, I take great issue with the behavior of my people in Israel. The history of their actions, the things that I have seen within my own lifetime and the sons and daughters of hers that I have known throughout the years all make me very ashamed. It’s very difficult to grasp how a people so persecuted throughout the millenia have continually marched towards embracing the same type of behavior that they have always sought to escape.
There is nothing subtle about it.
Paul L.
1) What kind of Jew? Orthodox, Reform or I say I’m Jewish but I do not believe that Religious stuff.
So being Jewish makes you a expert of the Middle East. Does that standard apply to the Neocons? Do the Holocaust survivors in your family agree with you about Israel?
So you object to Hezbollah hiding among Civilians?
I do not know if Qana was faked. I’ll wait for more evidence. But I do believe that Hezbollah would play it up in media and lie about what happenned. I am curious why no men were killed in the Qana attack.
Using your standard that all initial reports are true.
i.e.
5000 to 10,000 died in Katrina with bodies stacked in the freezer in the superdome.
The Duke lacrosse team is guilty of rape.
But wait to say overwise is to be like a holocaust denier.
One republican donation out of 15+ to the democrats and it’s bipartisan. You just proved how disingenuous you are.
BTW, I love you quoting Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch. They will jump on the US or Israel at any opportunity. But do not seem as quick to condemn China , Cuba, North Korea, or Iran.
The Other Steve
If you want to believe in looney conspiracy theories, be my guest, but don’t pull us down with you.
John S.
Here’s a little UN history for you, demimondian, courtesy of former ambassador Negroponte:
And let’s take off our “Israel is always right” glasses (cough up your pair, demimondian) and see what everyone else does:
But there I go…oversimplifying again.
John S.
Paul L.-
Nice strawman! Care to levy the accusation that I’m a holocaust denier again, you sack of shit?
Of course! Seriously, who wouldn’t think that using human shields is an abhorrent act? You DO think that if Israel used Arab civilians as human shields that would be wrong, right? By the way, how’s that proof that I’m on the Iran/Hezbollah side coming along?
Darrell already used that line. And you’ve been doing nothing BUT peddling that Quana is faked. Nice backpeddle, though.
Using your standard, all initial reports are untrue. And you also have this jolly standard of stating facts not in evidence then ignoring the request for proof.
Ya, it’s all a big conspiracy to make Israel look bad, Paul. By your standard, it’s ok to just make shit up as you go along without offering a single shred of proof. You and Darrell both are long in the tooth on posting, and yet magically you rarely ever link to sources – unless they are right-wing blogs.
You’re a fucking joke, and everyone except for you and the other joke knows it. Either give up, or make an effort.
Jim Allen
I must say, using the blocking script makes reading these threads a lot easier. Since I know what LarryDarrell&Darrell is/are going to say, I don’t actually need to read those postings, and get just as much enjoyment out of the responses as if I had read them.
But I’m seriously considering adding Paul L. to the block list. What a wanker.
John S.
You know what Paul? You’re right. Amnesty International never condemns China (480 times), Cuba (146 times), North Korea (39 times, almost all Fear of torture/fear of death penalty) or Iran (431 times). They only go after the United States and Israel.
Maybe their reports are based on access to that country. Maybe they’re even based on how active that country is on the world stage. Or maybe they’re just out to get the United States and Israel like you suggest. It’s so hard to know what to believe when presented with your brilliant analysis.
Bob In Pacifica
How will Johnson’s tax troubles affect the Jets on-field?
Paul L.
“John S. Holocaust deniers are the side you support Hezbollah/Iran.”
Care to point where I called you a Holocaust denier. I called Hezbollah/Iran Holocaust deniers.
Care to also point to where I said Qana was faked
Can you answer any of the following questions?
Why where no men were killed in the Qana attack?
IDF Investigating Qana Because of Blog Reports
demimondian
John S. — I care about careful rhetoric. I have a long history of watching one party or another go after Israel or the IDF out on accusations which turn out to be exaggerated.
If you want to condemn Israel for sloppiness with the predicted horrible outcomes in the case of Qana, be my guest. Negligence in the case Sabra and Shatilla? Dude, I’m all over it. Bigotry towards her Arab minority? Got it. An attempt to establish Bantustans in the West bank? Yup, no doubt.
But it seems to me that the cases where the evidence shows that Isreal has failed are really quite sufficient to go on. Condemnation of the IDF for “wanton cruelty and mass murder” just doesn’t pass the laugh test — if the IDF decided to civilians in Southern Lebanon, it would be full of corpses in an afternoon.
(Look at how easy it is to make corpses in Iraq, using low-order explosives with unreliable delivery mechanisms. Now, imagine doing the same thing using high-order explosives with 10m MCE’s. You want dead people? You’d get dead people.)
If you want to work against John Negroponte with me here in the US — which is our first responsibility — because he’s an authoritarian slug who arranged for *real* murders by the millions in Nicaragua and Guatemala, I’m with you. If you want to work against Ariel Sharon and Likud, because he’s an authroritarian slug who ought to have known what the Druze would do, I’m with you. If you want to troll the right for fun, because you like to watch the pompous jerks twitch when you yank their chains — well, I’ll sit back and enjoy the show.
But stick to the truth. What’s happening in Lebanon is tragic and probably stupid, but it is not murder. What happenend in Jenin was also not murder, despite the attempts to make it so. (Please remember that the “murder” charges associated with Jenin were claims of thousands of dead bodies in mass graves, not twenty dead civilians which appeared to result from a breakdown of discipline. Those charges, although frequently repeated, turned out to be false.)
Andrew
Show of hands:
Who thinks Israel is happy about the dead civilians?
Who thinks Hezbullah is happy about the dead civilians?
demimondian
Paul L., you’re a fool, and you don’t deserve and answer, but, if it makes you happy, here are answers:
(1) When did the building collapse, and why?
The building appears to have collapsed some hours after the bomb struck. That behavior is expected when a masonry or frame building suffers a near hit from a high explosive device and loses a wall. The connectors which hold the building together (mortar, in the case of masonry buildings, and nails, in the case of frame buildings) are jarred loose by the initial blast wave, and are subsequently further loosened by exogenous factors such as the wind or by earth movement.
Bombing runs, by the way, create earth movement, and can trigger secondary collapse.
(2) Were the photos of the victims staged?
Apparently, no.
(3) Why do the bodies of the victims not show the crushing injuries one would expect in a building collapse?
Two reasons. (a) One would not necessarily expect visible crushing injuries in a building collapse. Most crushing injuries result in internal blunt force trauma, leading to internal bleeding, shock, and death. Those do not leave a mark. (b) One would expect that many of the dead might have died in the initial blast wave, not in the later collapse. The principal cause of death due to HE blast wave is internal bleeding, which leaves no external traces.
(4) Why weren’t journalist allowed near the building?
See (1), above. Most of the buildings in the area will eventually need to be destroyed; in the meantime, they are unsafe.
(5) Why is their such a discrepancy in the initial casualty figures cited to the world (55-60) and the number of bodes recovered by the Lebanese Red Cross (28)?
Because such estimates are notoriously unreliable. Paul L., have you resumed beating your wife?
(6) Who is the man known as “Green Helmet” who was in so many of these pictures, and why was he in other, similar photos dating back to 1996?
There is no one man “Green Helmet”.
Steve
Could you possibly be relying on this post?
Bwahahaha!
John S.
Paul L.-
Keep lobbing up those softballs.
If someone else wants to deal with that last insane post of yours, they are free to do so.
Steve
I’d love to find out that Hezbollah faked the attack, by the way.
I’d love to find out that no children were actually killed, that it was just bodies from some morgue being used in a propaganda stunt.
I just happen to think the theory is batshit insane. But hey, let it be true.
DougJ
No Jeff Goldstein? He and Mel could really go back and forth on the anti-semitism thing.
DougJ
Can we call this the “Long Black Veil” approach?
Lisa
“Patriotism is a good word for it. I don’t enthusiastically support our government and its initaitives the way the Wyly brothers obviously do, but unlike Wylys I take some pride in paying my fair share for the right and benefits of citizenship. People who think that patriotism is a magnet on a car really make me shake my head.”
Wow. Thank you for that, sir. That statement makes be believe that there is hope for the citizens of this country, after all.
John S.
That’s always a good position, demi.
But here is the way I see the situation – please feel free to disagree:
I agree, since there is nothing funny about Israel’s historic disregard for Arab life. Do you know any Israelis? If so, I’m sure you’ve heard them refer to Arabs as animals and hold them in lower regard than accorded other human beings. I don’t think that Israel sets out to commit war crimes or atrocities, I just don’t think they’re very careful to avoid them with people they see as less than human.
That is your opinion, not a fact or “truth” as you call it. At the very least, what is happening is manslaughter. To be called murder – in the legal sense – would require some sort of pre-meditation. But since there is no court of law that will be trying Israel anytime soon to draw such conclusions, applying legal terminology to the situation is a bit silly.
Again, you are stating facts not in evidence. Do you directly refute Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International’s assessment of the outcome there? If so, you had best present your case or offer some sort of counter-argument. Again, I’m comfortable terming the situation a manslaughter. And I don’t think either report I cited earlier bandied about the term “murder”. You’re oversimplifying the argument to make it easier to attack.
Reading comprehension, demi. I’m the first to person to have pointed this out in the thread. I daresay I will have not forgotten what I said.
John S.
Nah, Paul L. and Darrell would never base their arguments verbatim on a post from a right-wing blog…
John S.
I agree, Steve. I’d also like to find out that the hundreds of Lebanese civilians allegedly killed so far are really vacationing on an island in the Mediterranean.
Sort of reminds me of the contestants that ‘won’ in The Running Man.
Andrew
I thought Darrell is Jeff Goldstein.
Punchy
I say go full bore. Living with his mom, basement, “wanna upsize that?”, car-wash and lemonade stand income, back hair, bedwetting, ex-wife, halitosis, arrogance, Drudge as his Step-dad, nose-picking, ’93 Escort beater, invisible friends, Cheeto-stained fingers, acne, club foot, cleft palate, food stamps, “BJ commenter” on his resume, GED, mouth-open chewer, serial liar, pack-a-day smoker….
Paul L.
Wow what a well thought-out detailed response.
Game, set and match
So when pulling the bodies out of the wreckage they did not count.
BTW, Can’t beat wife Not married.
We need to know the truth
demimondian
“Winning contestants will be provided with a home on a hillside overlooking the Mediterranean, and will be lifted out of their work-a-day existence in the dry hills of Southern Lebanon. Their every need will be provided for for as long as they live.”
The fine print, though, is a bitch. “Hillside home lot sizes will not exceed 1m by 2m, and may be shared with other winners. No expenses will be payed. Burial costs not included.”
demimondian
Um, Paul L.? Your posting has nothing to do with whether the pictures were faked, but, rather, with whether they had propaganda value.
Come out here and join the Discovery Institute. You’ll fit right — and I do mean right — in.
demimondian
Yes, John, I know a lot of Israelis, both professionally and personally. If you’re going to criticize people for “reading comprehension”, you might ought to notice that I talked about Israel and her Arab minority in the very posting to which you’re responding:
Just to be clear: I equated the Israeli policy towards the Palestinians with the apartheid homelands. Do you think I didn’t do so consciously? Give me some credit, OK?
I don’t know whether the IDF is sufficiently careful or not — and I agree that that is a terrible charge. However, I have been responding to repeated changes like this:
Do you agree that claim is unwarranted? If so, then we have a reasonable compromise position, that Israel appears to have been insufficiently careful, but has not acted to directly target civilians.
John S.
I think I can agree with that. There is ample proof that Israel has been careless in their war effort to minimize civilian casualties, but I haven’t really seen anything that proves they are specicifically targeting them, either.
Frankly, I think if this entire thing was put on trial, Israel would be found guilty of 1st degree manslaughter or 3rd degree murder at the worst. I don’t think those clamoring to charge them with 1st degree murder have a leg to stand on, although I can sympathize with their emotional desire to do so. It is a terrible conflict that has gone on for centuries, and brings out a lot of emotion.
But I think a lot of people – myself included – would like to hold Israel to a higher standard than those they are trying to go after. Whereas I think Israel is bound by their status as a democratic nation to go to great lengths to preserve human life, I do not expect much of the same from terrorist organizations. That certainly isn’t to say I think the actions of Hamas and Hezbollah are okay – they aren’t – it’s just that I’m not surprised when terrorists behave like terrorists.
Andrew
Indeed.
And I do think they operate to a much higher standard than any other neighboring nation.
Careless? Hardly. They have shown more care in their war effort than basically every other civilized nation in history. Certainly more care than the U.S. has shown in either Afghanistan or Iraq.
Israel has not been perfect, but that seems to be the expectation.
demimondian
I don’t know what 1st degree manslaughter means in your jurisdiction. I’d expect a conviction for negligent manslaughter out here — causing death by virtue of insufficient care. I can’t see getting a conviction for any of the lesser degrees of murder.
But that’s a quibble. We fundamentally agree, both about that and about this:
I completely agree.
I guess that part of my problem here is that I believe that it is not my job to enforce that in Israel. I’ve found that (a) the opposition in Israel seems quite competent to do that job themselves, and (b) my hands are really quite full with my own government.
Nutcutter
That settles it. Your position as Chief Contrarian here is established.
We await your essays about the positive effects of global warming.
demimondian
The canuckistani worship of their Moose God will be cutrailed as moose go extinct.
Andrew
My essay, “Global Warming, Earth’s Savior: How Rising Sea Levels Will Flood the Middle East and Drown All the Crazies” is forthcoming.
John S.
You base this on what exactly, Andrew?
I have offered several sources that backup my claim that they have been careless. You have offered none that backup your claim that they haven’t.
Proof nonwithstanding, I find your claim to be absurd in the extreme.
Paul L.
An update on that question.
It appears that they paraded the woman and children. The men were covered elsewhere.
Zifnab
They shelled a UN watchpost. And not just artillery misfire, but precision laser guided bombs. This was AFTER the UN watchposted radioed out that Isreali fire was getting dangerously close to their position.
They’ve bombed infrastructure in such a way that refugees can’t even flee the country in accordance with Isreali warnings. They’ve shot at buses full of women and children driving to seek shelter.
Isreal has gone out of its way to cause undue harm. About the only ‘responsible’ thing they’ve done is give ‘fair warning’ before they bomb the hell out of civilian targets.
John S.
To paraphrase the movie Top Secret!:
Paul L. is a moron who believes only what he reads on conservative blogs.
(The original being Klaus is a moron who believes only what he reads in the New York Post.)
demimondian
John, I’m not sure I’d use the word “careless”. (In fact, I quite deliberately didn’t; I used the phrase “insufficient care”.) Careless carries the connotation of *willfull* negligence, where “insufficient care” carries the weaker connotation of not paying enough attention when handling something extremely dangerous.
I think that Qana by itself shows that the IDF wasn’t sufficiently careful, but I don’t think that the evidence supports the claim that they willfully ignored the possibility of civilian deaths. In support of that, I, again, point out the relatively small number of civilian deaths given the lethality of the weapons being used. (Considering the tens of thousands who died in the three week air war in Iraq, 700 is quite small, even given the lower populations involved.)
chopper
yeah, and all irish are drunks too.
my GF is israeli, as is her entire family. and i’ve never heard any one of them, even the veterans of israel’s many wars, make any such reference.
the same goes for all the other israelis i know through work or anywhere else.
The Easter Bunny
Goddam right, demi. That’s why I strapped a cement-filled Hummer on top of my Hummer. With a little more weight I may actually achieve negative gas mileage, while simultaneously maximizing my emissions of that sweet vapor of freedom, CO2.
Also, the extra weight comes in handy when I run vehicles in the carpool lane off the road. Fuckin’ hippies.
Darrell
demi, are you just parrotting what some left wing site told you to think, or is there actual solid evidence that Negroponte arranged for murders “by the millions” in Nicaragua and Guatemala?
I know he used to be ambassador to Nicaragua, and no doubt was involved in aiding the Contras there at the time when the Sandinistas were not permitting elections.. elections in which Nicaraguans, when finally given a vote, they chose the Contras.
I’m curious to see your standard of evidence in making such an accusation about Negroponte being guilty of arranging “millions” of murders so that everyone can see how ‘reality based’ you are. Please share your ‘insights’ on this subject with us.
demimondian
chopper, I *have* heard Israeli Ashkenazim use “upleasant epithets” about their Sephardic and Arab cousins. Since I’m an outsider, I feel that’s pretty compelling evidence that bigotry is rampant in the ruling class of Israeli society.
chopper
well, look at how many civilians died when the US invaded afghanistan. what is it now, 3500? also imagine if say, russia was doing this in lebanon, do you actually think fewer civvies would have died? before you answer, remember how many civilians have died at the hands of the russian military in chechnya and the bombing of grozny.
i don’t agree that israel is being more careful than any civilized nation ‘in history’, but she is being far more careful than a number of her contemporaries have been in going after terrorists in civilian areas, including us.
Darrell
demi, I think you are forgetting that John S has ‘issues’ with Israel. He actually posted upthread that the Jenin fraud proves Israel’s “complete disregard for human rights and the safety of civilians”. That is an unhinged hateful rant.. not rational argument.
tBone
Please do, demi, or ‘Darrell’ will be ‘forced’ to use ‘even more’ quotes to indicate ‘sarcasm.’
chopper
i’ve heard some american christians use epithets about their black cousins.
do you know any christians? if so, i’m *sure* you’ve heard them refer to blacks as animals and hold them in lower regard than accorded other human beings.
demimondian
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you peep(TM)-loving fuzzy-tailed rat. Have you had your incisors surgically removed from your brain yet, rodent?
We, the peaceful denizens of the demi-bunker, are encouraging the spread of clean, CO2-free, nuclear fission by working day and night to manufacture highly enriched Uranium. We call on all freedom-loving(R) canuckistani to join us in our struggle to preserve their peaceful religious icons in the future. You can start by driving the civilian-murdering thugs out of their stronghold in the far North and into the ocean underneath them.
We’ll help by watching and cheering.
Darrell
Because the REAL issue is my use of quotations, not the batshit crazy accusation that Negroponte is guilty of arranging millions of murders.
Zifnab
My Jewish grandmother often bemoans the fact that Palestinians and Isrealis couldn’t put down the AKs and the C-4 and just live together in peace. I, myself, have seen pro-Isreali and pro-Palestinian groups on the University campus clash, but it never goes farther than verbal condemnations. What’s more, we have a very active and promonent Palestinian-Isreali peace organization specifically composed of Jews and “Arab animals” who actively push for peace between the two warring factions.
I could point to the World Church of the Creater as proof that all Christians are bigotted neo-Nazis, but I doubt that would fly here. Please keep your likeminded trite crap to yourself.
John S.
Congratulations – you found of the few.
If you want to sit here and seriously suggest that the majority of Israelis DON’T have an ethnic hatred of their semitic cousins, be my guest.
demimondian
Chopper:
So have I — white folk living in the South do, you know, and done quite a bit of that in my life. That’s, in fact, why I drew the conclusions I drew. I know the stink of racism far, far too well, and I’ve found that it pretty much smells the same everywhere.
demimondian
For clarification, by:
, I meant hearing American Christians use epithets about their black cousins.
Darrell
I understand it’s common among arabs to refer to Israeli Jews as “sons of monkeys and pigs”
John S.
Sure thing, bub.
You and chopper go on your crusade that the majority of Israelis don’t see the Arabs as second-class citizens (haven knows they certainly don’t treat them as such in the Knesset!).
You sure have me convinced.
Andrew
There is no doubt that there have been certain actions in the war that are serious mistakes. Just like any war.
But Israel hasn’t been carpet bombing villages, like the U.S. did in Afghanistan, for example. There are no free fire zones like in Vietnam. You want to compared Israeli tactics to the Sudanese army, or the Russians in Chechnya, or the Chinese in Vietnam? These were all at least an order of magnitude more deadly to civilians.
Like I said, there appears to be an expectation of perfection from the Israelis, absurdly based upon some successful commando raids in Africa decades ago.
Almost every other modern conflict has been much more violent, indiscriminant, and deadly, hence my completely logical statement that Israel has taken more care than others.
John S.
Aw, you’re still smarting from having your ass handed to you, Senator?
It’s ok. When you decide to offer one shred of evidence that refutes the claims made by the human rights organizations that made the claims I linked to, I’ll give a rat’s ass what you think.
If anything, I would term the tone of my posts as sorrowful. After you get through posting, there isn’t enough hate left for anyone else.
jg
Ethnic hatred isn’t an Israeli character trait. Its a human character trait. We all ‘hate’ those that aren’t like us. Its the natural opposite reaction that results from ‘birds of a feather’.
Darrell
Yeah, I better run and put some ice on that ‘spanking’ you gave me.
I think your arguments that Israel “completely disregards human rights” are noble, and ring of truth.
John S.
Andrew-
I don’t expect perfection. I just expect better than what I’m seeing – which of course is all fabricated and based on Hezbollah lies.
And again, if you’re trying to make an argument based on examples, links are extremely helpful for backing up your position. Anecdotes only get you so far.
John S.
I think your assignation of the arguments presented by Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch (which you still haven’t offered any proof to the contrary) to ME personally is extremely genuine and honest of you.
Which is to say, your typical bullshit.
John S.
I never claimed that it was.
I disagree. I don’t “hate” anyone, and certainly not on the grounds that they are different than myself. I don’t even hate Darrell. Pity, yes. Hate, no.
chopper
well, seeing as how a vast majority of the many israelis i’ve met, lived with etc (and i’ve met a lot) have never had such an opinion, you haven’t convinced me at all. how much exposure to actual israelis have you had that you can make such a sweeping statement about an entire population?
LITBMueller
Nah, its based on the fact that they are a the only real functioning democracy in the Middle East and are heavily funded and armed by the United States. The Sudanese and Russians are expected to act like thugs. Israel is held to a higher standard because of who they are.
Hell, Bush tells the world almost daily how democracies are peaceful, so what do you expect?
Andrew
Sorry, I don’t feel the need to link to basic facts about history. Wikipedia is your friend.
Some examples:
Sino-Vietnamese War: 10,000 dead civilians
First Chechen war: 50,000-100,000 dead civilians
To say nothing of the various African wars where millions have died. But hey, those guys are barbarians, so we won’t get so upset about it.
Afghanistan: 3500 dead civilians
Iraq: 6000 in year 1
Hey, that’s us! You know, they guys with B-52’s carpet bombing innocent villagers.
chopper
well, if you want to sit here and suggest that a majority of blacks AREN’T lazy and shiftless, be my guest.
John S.
Before anyone else feels compelled to decry my characterization of Israelis as anti-Arab, stare at the above statement.
I happen to agree with it 100%, and if such a policy isn’t born of ethnocentrism, then I don’t what you people would term as thus.
John S.
Super strawman power!
You’ll really have to do much better than that.
Nutcutter
Oh gee, you think?
Like, uh, I know, let’s bomb the fuck out of this country and then their people will rise up against the militia that fights us. So we’ll get the Lebanese people to get rid of Hezbollah for us. They’ll thank us for bombing their country … just like they did the last time we tried a failed 20-year experiment on them.
Like, uh, we can operate a huge easy-chair airwar with pushbutton, pinpoint targeting technology and “disarm” the militia with just a few, er, “unfortunate collateral” casualties on the side.
Like, er, no matter how badly we fuck this up, we’ll just keep repeating the same sociopathic talking points, like “people die in war” and “civilian deaths are the standard for war now” and “the enemy is using the civilians as human shields.” Even after three weeks when we have no claims whatever that the “shielded” persons are being killed alongside the shields, we’ll keep repeating that lie because people worldwide are stupid enough to believe it. Even when they see us shooting at ambulances and hospitals and shelters and carloads of families trying like hell to run away from us, we’ll keep repeating the sociopathic baldfaced lies becuase people will swallow them hook, line and sinker.
Even when it is clear that our strategy is a failure, that we never set or moved toward a defined and manageable set of obejctives for this war, when every sentient analyst on earth says we are losing on the ground and in the battle for the moral high ground, we’ll stick to our story and just keep doing the same thing over and over. We’ll humiliate our closest ally, whose credibility now in the Arab world will plunge even further through the floor, and push the entire world a little closer to the brink of a disaster, all to prove that we can get really mad after a border skirmish that wouldn’t even make the back page of any daily newspaper on earth outside of Israel.
Mistakes? No, you are too muc on top of this, amigo.
Really. Don’t be so hard on them. I think that they, like the Rumsfeldians running our sorry country right now, are capable of much greater and deeper fuckups yet, and that if you are patient, you may see them unfold in the coming weeks.
Say, BJ fans, how do you like a war whose principal defenders are Darrell and Paul L?
Don’t it make ya proud?
John S.
I live in South Florida, so PLENTY.
And I don’t base my opinion solely on the anecdotal evidence of Israelis I’ve met – I look at the behavior of the country itself and how it treats its Arab citizens, which is of course FAR more relevant than any stories we can swap about Israelis we’ve known.
jg
I put ‘hate’ in quotes for a reason. Its not the right word but I wanted to carry on the theme of this thread. What I mean is that its a natural human trait to want to group with your own kind. Blacks weren’t excluded from white society because they were black but because they weren’t white. Pointing out the differences and even using them in hateful ways is just a by product of that IMO.
John S.
Except that you’re peddling a message that isn’t based on historical fact. As you’ve said, Wikipedia is your friend. I think you’ll find it not too friendly in its assessment of Israel’s historic tendency towards careful avoidance of civilian casualties.
And seriously, what atrocities China, the United States, etc. may have committed has absolutely no bearing on how Israel conducts herself. It isn’t a game of “who kills more civilians”.
LITBMueller
What I wanna know is, can the “civilian deaths are OK if they are civilians that support Hezbollah” excuse be extended?
For instance, say Iran had the capability of conducting an air raid on the US homeland. Would it then be OK for them to target the Pentagon as well as the homes of Rush Limbaugh and Bill Kristol?
Just wonderin’….
jg
Good question. Osama hit the WTC saying they are supporters of our policies so they are a military target. Is he crazy or mainstream?
Darrell
You supported the Afghanistan war, right? Because lot’s of civilians were killed there too. When I asked you about this inconsistency, you responded to me that you “know murder when you see it”, and Israelis, unlike the US in Afghanistan, are guilty of murder.
You have explicitly stated that Israel “murders” children for “political purposes”. You made that statement and you defended it, and now you’re ranting against Israel again, pretending that you are not really a hateful piece of shit.
Darrell
If they willingly hide explosives and arms in their house, and/or shelter Hezbollah terrorists who are hiding, then yes.
jaime
Hmmm…what’s the difference between this:
and this:
Andrew
Except that my statement was that Israel is more careful than other nations, and that’s what you challenged.
So… I presented some evidence that they are indeed more careful than other nations. I never said that they were perfect, or even good or careful enough.
But they are, without a doubt, better than almost all other nations in their conduct of war. The Israelis may indeed be evil bastards, but everyone else is more evil and more bastard-er-ly-ish. The reason that comparisons matter is that it exposes the large degree of hypocrisy of many critics of Israel.
jaime
Sounds like they are all a bunch of Little Eichmanns.
Steve
Let’s find some other apples to compare these apples to, though. What do you think about the treatment of Arabs in Israel – where, no question, they are second-class citizens – compared to the treatment of Jews in the Arab countries?
DougJ
You know, Darrell, you’re not a complete idiot (like Par R) or totally deranged (like Paul L), but it is very difficult to reason with you, because you simply refuse to use logic to evaluate the arguments that others are using. If you would just drink a little less Kool-Aid, you’d be a good rightie for this site.
Darrell
Thanks Doug, but sometimes it’s a little difficult to see the logic which you and Nutcutter use.. the logic which assumes that terrorists would never cause or stage an atrocity, or the logic that says civilians killed in Lebanon are “murders” whereas civilians killed in Afghanistan are collateral damage.
Perry Como
You’re right, Darrell. At most Negroponte was complicit in the death of hundreds (possibly thousands, but I’m too lazy to find up the research).
The important thing is that an authoritarian has defend the another authoritarian from hyperbole. Bravo. Fuckhole.
Veeshir
This place just stays funny.
Darrell
And in comparing those apples, how many words of condemnation, if any, do the harsh critics of Israel have for the far worse behavior of the arabs? Andrew nailed it with this:
Darrell
DougJ, can you direct me to the comments made by Paul L which would qualify him as “totally deranged” in your estimation? because I want to get a better insight as to how rational or unhinged your characterizations are.
Perry Como
Lebanese that run are members of Hezbollah. Lebanese that stand still are well disciplined Hezbollah.
John S.
How many times do I need to repeat myself? This shall be the last….
I condemn the ill treatment of Jews in Arab countries. I condemn the ill treatment of Arabs in Israel. One does not hinge upon the other, and only a hypocrite of the finest moral relativistic fiber would argue otherwise.
Is that clear enough for you, Steve?
Par R
Since it appears that this thread has already gone off its wheels in strange and various directions, how about a repeat of a quite funny quote (this sounds like something DougJ might say) about the good junior Senator from Massachusetts:
John S.
Ya, because unless you condemn all civilian atrocities perpetrated in war time by any country that ever did such a thing, that means that Israel hasn’t done anything wrong.
I’ll play along, though. China, the United States and practically every other country in the world that have engaged in warfare for the span of human history haven’t done enough to prevent the death of innocent civilians.
Now that I’ve just undone your point, I think your response will expose the large degree of moral relativism of many supporters of Israel.
LITBMueller
How abotu oxycontin?
Steve
No, not really. I assume you think the Arab treatment of Jews is worse and simply don’t want to water down your point by saying so, but go ahead anyway.
Israel has a demographic problem in that they want to have a Jewish state, but if they gave equal voting rights to everyone they wouldn’t have one for long.
If the territory which comprises Israel were ruled by the Arab majority, what would the likely result be for the Jews? I can’t really criticize Israel for preventing this outcome, even though the solution is certainly suboptimal by our standards. You’d hope that in the long run a better solution will emerge.
If the prevailing sentiment throughout Africa were that it’s illegal to be white, I’d have a lot more understanding for why the white government of South Africa didn’t want to share power.
chopper
well, i could point out that blacks in america are still not treated very well compared to the white majority. they’re underrepresented in congress as well (arabs in israel have more representation per capita in the knesset).
does that mean that a statement such as “Do you know any white americans? If so, I’m sure you’ve heard them refer to blacks as animals and hold them in lower regard than accorded other human beings” is anything more than painting an entire population with a broad brush? does it mean that most all white americans harbor an “ethnic hatred” towards blacks?
i mean, i’m a white american, and i don’t think my minority friends can claim that they’ve ever heard me refer to blacks as animals. and i sure as hell don’t harbor an ‘ethnic hatred’ of blacks, nor does any white dude i know.
hell, if darrell came out saying “Do you know any arabs? If so, I’m sure you’ve heard them refer to jews as animals and hold them in lower regard than accorded other human beings” to try to tar all arabs he’d get called a racist prick in a second. of course, he’s darrell, but still.
Krista
No kidding. I’ve seen Darrell make some excellent, rational arguments, like the one he had with Steve a while back (I forget the topic, unfortunately). That’s why I find it so frustrating when he falls back on his stock phrases like “how honest of you” “unhinged leftist kook” or all of the other ad hominem attacks. He’s obviously as tough as a boiled owl to have withstood the incessant diatribes against him, and he’d make an excellent idealogical opponent. But as soon as the catchphrases come out, a lot of people just stop listening, I think. And it’s too bad. We could use some more righties in here who are interested in a good debate.
Jim Allen
Spoof or not, that puts Par R. on the block list as well.
Tim and JohSince it appears that this thread has already gone off its wheels in strange and various directions, how about a repeat of a quite funny quote (this sounds like something DougJ might say) about the good junior Senator from Massachusetts:
“[Senator John Kerry] could fit comfortably as an extra in a Kevin Smith or John Waters film. In Smith’s new and riotous Clerks II, for example, Kerry would’ve been perfectly believable as the strange fellow who makes a living performing ‘inter-species erotica,’ like blowing a donkey and then having his way with the animal from the rear.”
Cole, you’ve barred me from posting because you didn’t like what I said, and you leave this kind of shit not only posted but uncommented-on. Can I assume that you agree with this and with the crap that Darrell posts on such a regular basis?
Perry Como
Why has no one mentioned Kaiser Wilhelm? Nothing but a bunch of Prussian apologists around here.
Nutcutter
That is exactly what they did.
Stamp your feet all you like, that’s a fact.
They murdered children, and their fleeing parents, for political putposes. Not self defense. Not even a military objective. Political purposes.
A mixture of carelessness, callous disregard for life, idiotic military planning, and worst of all, the lies, the daily stream of bald-faced lies which continue to this day, seal the deal.
Their response is a sensitive mixture of “we regret” and “too bad, people die in war.” Which makes them, actually, better than you.
You continue to support the murder of children, to go along with your already established bigoted disregard for gays. You are beneath contempt.
DougJ
If you don’t think that virtually all of Paul L’s comments are deranged, then you too, Darrell, are deranged. Sorry I gave you the benefit of the doubt there.
Darrell, I’ve given you so many chances and I’ve even laid off the jabs about your lack of a job….all in vain, apparently. You’re a waste.
John S.
You know what they say, when you assume…
But really, you’ve only made an ass of yourself. I don’t think one is any worse than the other, and I don’t think it would matter if one was. Mistreatment can have varying degrees, but none of it is comendable. But feel free to continue reading my mind.
What was your point, exactly?
John S.
chopper Says:
If you want to somehow force a comparison of blacks/whites in America to the Israel/Arab situation, then the only valid one to make would be the United States prior to the civil rights movement. Because whereas Israeli attitudes towards the Arabs is concerned – as evidenced by official government POLICY – they are pretty much where whites in the South were in the 1950s.
We have advanced on the issue since then. Israel has not.
Nutcutter
Justin Raimondo.
And you thought you had seen all the evil in the world.
Maybe now, you have.
Of course, we still have two and half more years of the Rumsfeld Era to endure. Stay loose.
Steve
As usual, I find myself regretting giving someone the benefit of the doubt. Fair enough.
You can accuse Israel of apartheid all day long, but it seems to me you can’t see the full picture without considering what would be the consequences of giving full civil rights to all the Arab residents. And I don’t think you can evaluate those consequences without considering that Israel’s Arab neighbors have effectively eliminated their Jewish communities altogether.
I think it’s just a tad idealistic to expect Israel, given this context, to simply confer full civil rights on every Arab resident. In the short term, this would be a suicide pact.
chopper
actually, i think the comparison is much more apt with blacks after the civil rights movement, given that arab citizens of israel have full rights. including voting rights.
wiki:
Steve
The “Yesha Rabbinical Council” is a settler organization and, as such, represents the farthest of the far Israeli right (as if you couldn’t tell from their bloodthirsty rhetoric).
Many times I’ve shaken my head at the thought that there is an element of Israeli politics that ended up being too far to the right for ARIEL SHARON, of all people. Yet it happened. It’s like Dick Cheney forming a third party because he felt the Republicans got too whacked.
Now, how does the far-right genocidal position in Israeli politics compare in size and influence with the crazy terrorist position in Arab politics? I’m not man enough to try and answer that question.
John S.
Is that what you call reading people’s minds and making assumptions based on your findings? Interesting.
So instead, Arabs should remain second-class citizens. Brilliant argument, Steve. You have me convinced. There are some white folks in South Africa that would love to hear more about what you have to say.
Yes, absolutely. Giving the Arabs the same human rights as the Israelis would expect for themselves is a suicide pact. What isn’t a suicide pact is the continuation of NOT conferring full civil rights on Arabs, thereby creating countless future generations of Arabs committed to destroying Israel. Or rather, staying the course is a long-term suicide pact for Israel.
What you are arguing truly boggles my mind.
Tom in Texas
And the Jane Hamshers of the left strike again. WTF is up with that picture? If Bush had run a picture of Kerry in blackface next to Clinton during the campaign, how would such an ad be perceived?
Andrew
Gosh, the Israelis are certainly the most evil people alive. I mean, they have to be, given that a right-wing Rabbi group said some crazy shit. The Yesha Council has been called a bunch of seditious lunatics
Dumb fuck inferrence of day, I’m afraid, nutcutter.
Andrew
Whoops, accidental submit. Allow me to finish my post on why nutcutter’s aspersions of death cultism are fucking stupid.
The Yesha are radical settlers who are in opposition to most of the policies of the current and recent Israeli governments. They’re like the Ann Coulter-Pat Robertson hybrid of Israel politics. To pretend that their crazy shit is somehow representative of the behavior or actions of the IDF is really, really dumb.
DougJ
Andrew: I feel like I’m reading the New Republic with your posts here. I didn’t take you for a Lieberman-style “liberal hawk”. Oh, well, I guess nobody’s perfect.
DougJ
Though you’re right of course that the settler are whack jobs who are not indicative of anything other than their own lunacy. I agree with you there.
Nutcutter
Well I think that’s an interesting, if not totally relevant, question.
If you go back to my first posts on this topic on the first BJ thread on the topic, I think you’ll see where I’m at on that sort of thing.
Simple. When I see people acting crazy, claiming to be chosen by God, promoting and causing death while talking out of the other side of the mouth about life, and acting and talking as though the supposed outrages perpetrated by the demon they oppose will excuse their own immoral behavior, then I am done with them. As I said then, and say now, it does not matter to me any more who is Arab and who is Jew, or who is Smurf or who is Martian. What matters to me is actions, not words. Results, not speeches and theories and intellectual constructs. Life, not arguments about life. Death, not excuses for death.
I’ve been listening to the crazy lies and manipulations and bullshit from both sides in this conflict for fifty years, and I came ten years late to the party. Or a thousand years, depending on which story you are telling.
Enough is enough. The facts on the ground in Lebanon do not support the manufactured and carefully worded talking points and verbal smokescreens pouring out of Israel. And I don’t need the hideous Shimon Peres and his lectures about “tehhhhhrwroauer” to educate me about what is evil, and what is murder, and what is not.
LBNL, your “there’s this, but then there’s that” is just the kind of moral navel gazing that I have no stomach for.
If you can’t look at a burned up family who was attacked in the car as they tried to flee the hostilities and say that the madness should stop now, without turning it into a “reasonable discussion,” then you …. generic you, not you you … are wasting my time.
demimondian
You know, Steve, I have a hard time understanding your arguments. All Arab Israelis do enjoy full civil rights in law. In fact? Well, not so much. I’m with chopper — the situation is closer to that after the ’64 civil rights act.
That doesn’t mean that Israel is truly an equal society, unfortunately. But anyone who doesn’t believe she tries is a liar; she does, and, yes, that’s a hell of a lot more than her neighbors do.
Yes, I ask better. I want to admire Israel for what she is and should be; I don’t care if a bunch of tin-pot dictatorships are tin-pot dictatorships. I know she can do better, and I want to see her do so.
chriskoz
Wasn’t Darrell talking about “arab lies” upthread? Is that enough to call him a racist prick?
I think some comments actually called him on that characterization, but were met with deafening silence from Darrel. (I’m guessing because he couldn’t figure out a good way to distort the comments to label the poster a “leftist, terrorist loving, race baiter”)
Nutcutter
Well that remains to be seen. I think that in the last three weeks, they have been in the running.
They are trading dead children for military hardware and political gain. Apparently, deliberately.
DougJ
Speaking of the Jane Hamshers of the left, am I the only one here who finds her incredibly attractive in that video she did with that Spazeboy? Does the fact I’m discussing this indicate that I need therapy?
Steve
Look, I confronted the analogy to apartheid head-on, explaining in detail why I think Israel’s situation is far different from South Africa, and yet you drop this line in there like it’s a slam-bang argument winner, no explanation necessary. You simply didn’t confront the merits of what I had to say.
Let’s try this for starters. What are the specific civil rights that you would like to see conferred on the Arab citizens of Israel, that they don’t have already? Because, let’s make no mistake, Arab Israelis have an awful lot of civic participation already, far more than existed under apartheid.
Tom in Texas
Israel is doing more than any nation ever has to minimize civilian casualties. They drop leaflets, they warn of impending raids hours or days in advance; they call homes to warn them that they or their neighbors are being hit — and then provide transport out of the area for them. Israel is treating the citizens of a nation it is at war with better than we treat victims of natural crises at home, and they are accused of war crimes and worse.
DougJ
All right, Andrew, I’m reading the comments you’re responding to (which are extreme) and I see why you’re taking that attitude now. Sorry I compared you to Joe Lieberman and the New Republic.
DougJ
That’s setting the bar awfully low.
chopper
note that after the 2000 and 2004 elections, quite a few black americans felt that their ‘full civil rights in law’ had also gone to the ‘not so much’ column. many had never stopped feeling that way since the 60’s, actually. and this was america in the 21st century.
however, we don’t assert crazy stuff like ‘a majority of white americans think blacks are animals’ or anything based on such.
Perry Como
I had to look it up, but she is a hottie. Even though she’s a blonde.
If you were a Boy Scout Troop leader, maybe.
Nutcutter
So your argument is that if you “warn” people who are basically without resources and have nowhere to go, nor means to get there, and then you bomb and strafe their escape routes, and then you kill them in their sleep, along with their babies and childred, you are off the hook? You are off the hook because you can put some turd in a suit on tv to say that you are off the hook?
Maybe you should live in Israel, instead of Texas? Or is that pretty much the standard Texas view of morality these days?
chopper
that’s a good point.
Andrew
If it makes you feel any better, Doug, I would punch Peter Beinart in the nose, given the opportunity.
And yes, lusting after Hamsher means that you’re probably fantasizing about some sort of of BDSM situation where you end up yelling, “I’m a moderate centrist!” as she whips you with a cat-o’-nine-tails.
Darrell
Here’s a reasonable sampling of Paul L comments.. what by your bizarre standards is considered to be “totally deranged”
How completely deranged of him wait for more evidence, huh Doug? Or this:
What a totally deranged ranting rightwingnut those questions and comments are! We can certainly see what a rational assessment you made by labeleling “virtually all” of his comments to be deranged. Very reality based of you.
What’s interesting about DougJ is that he pretends that he’s not an extremist whackjob. Every now and then he gives a glimpse into how far out he really is. This exchange is just one example.
DougJ
I took it back, anyway. I was reading your comments out of context.
That does sound kind of intriguing to me.
DougJ
Where do I get that script for collapsing Darrell’s comments?
Steve
Look, I’m with you, and I certainly want to see Israel be a better nation. I think the analogy to 1964 is apt, but I’d note that Israel has proceeded on a far faster track towards equality than what we see in the history of our own nation. That doesn’t mean, of course, that we should be content.
Every country in the Western world seems to have a political element which expresses the same problem with Arabs – the idea that these icky Muslim people, who aren’t like “us,” are going to overpopulate and overrun us and change our fundamental way of life. In this country, I write these people off for the Malkinesque creeps they are. In Western Europe, where the demographic issue is more noticeable, I still think they need to suck it up.
But in Israel, things are at stake that aren’t at stake elsewhere. Israel’s existence as a state is in question, in a way that France’s existence isn’t in question if they wind up with a few more Arabs in elected office. As far as I know, the only legal impediment to Arabs in Israel is that it’s hard for Palestinian men to come to the territories and gain citizenship, because Israel doesn’t want the same elements who are fomenting its destruction to have domestic political power as well.
A long-term peace plan needs to sort out all these things if it’s going to work.
John S.
Well, for starters I was calling for Israel to be a little more careful with their war effort killing innocent civilians. I started with the discussion of Jenin, and somehow from there it devolved into this strange corrollary that you now see before you.
I also can agree with chopper that on paper, Arabs have full rights in Israel. But I also agree with demimondian that this doesn’t paint the full picture. I guess I would like to see Arab cities in Israel receive fair and equal funding that the Jewish cities have access to. Same goes for schools and other vital public infrastructure. It isn’t enough to just say that Arab Israelis have full rights whn they are effectively forced into ghettos and have little prospect of upward mobility – sort of like how France treats there Arabs.
As for my original point, I just wish Israel would try not to kill so many Arab civilians when they proceed with military operations. Again, echoing demi – I want to admire Israel for what she is and should be; I know she can do better, and I want to see her do so.
DougJ
This is really kind of an offensive question to ask, especially of someone who just said he had family members killed in the Holocaust.
John S.
Fine, chopper, you’ve made your point. You have sex with an Israeli, so clearly you don’t want to think that her people have a deep-rooted hatred of Arabs that goes back for millennia and manifests itself in their ill treatment of them. Whatever gets you through the day.
Darrell
Oh my, if I don’t respond to every piece of nonsense you halfwits throw at me, then that constitutes “deafening” silence. Got it
Why don’t post the entire context of my “arab lies” comment instead of cherry picking it out of context to deliberately change meaning you dishonest sack of shit chopper? Oh, and can we take all your non-responses as “deafening silence” too?
John S.
Which is why I didn’t bother to answer it.
Perry Como
Here.
You’ll use it for a day or two then disable it. Trolling Darrell is too much fun.
Darrell
Offensive perhaps, if you’re an unhinged whackjob. In the context that question was asked, it was entirely fair and reasonable.
Tom in Texas
Yes Nutcutter,
by sending transport for these people to leave the area, they are sabotaging their means of escape. Clearly, the phone calls and leaflets, the buses are an elasorate ruse, designed so Israel can know exactly when and where they are and they can KILL THEM ALL. The Jews, after all, are responsible for this and all wars. Didn’t you hear?
Israel ceded a demilatized zone over to Lebanon and agreed to a cease fire. A huge element within Lebanon that cannot be controlled by the ruling government used the area to stage rocket attacks on Israel for months. Eventually they used the area as a base to send raiding parties into Israel and kidnap soldiers. If Lebanon cannot control this element, Israel must.
DougJ
I’m not Jewish, and I find it strange that so many non-Jews can be ignorant of what makes someone “jewish” or “not jewish”. Is it that hard to understand that it has as much (or more) to do with ethnicity as religion? Is it that hard to understand that if someone’s family was wiped out because they were Jewish that that person will identify as Jewish regardless of whether he attends religious service or not?
Steve
Okay, I agree with everything you just said.
As for the ongoing debate over whether the average Israeli on the street thinks Arabs are subhuman vermin, I’m going to have to remain agnostic on that one. I’d go to Haifa and report back, but well, you know.
DougJ
No, it is never “fair and reasonable” to ask someone whose family was killed in the Holocaust whether they’re “really a jew or not”. It’s fucking offensive as all get out. I’m touchy on this, because my closest colleague is a non-practicing Jew who was a hidden baby in WWII.
jaime
What context? Please provide the context where it was necessary to highlight “arab lies”. We knew the group of people you were speaking of, but you decided to add arab in front of lies. Why not just “lies”?
See that’s the question you bailed out on like the coward you are.
Oh, BTW, did you know that Chuck Schumer boycotted Maliki’s speech?
Steve
I think Mark Levin might be DougJ.
I think the worst was when those three guys committed an act of war by killing themselves. That was a really terrible thing to do to the guards.
John S.
Well, there is a LOT that makes Darrell ignorant. Least of all his views on this particular subject.
jaime
I think Darrell sees 2 different kinds of Jew: Future converts and the uppity ones that persecuted Mel Gibson.
Darrell
DougJ Says:
I like how DougJ, when called on his extremism, he dishonestly twists what was said to make his views seem more normal. First, John S. never said he lost family members in the holocaust, much less claiming his family was “wiped out” as you say. He only mentioned holocaust ‘survivors’ in the family
Second, John S was using the “I have family members who are holocaust survivors” to silence debate and to justify his anti-Israel extremism.. so in that context it’s entirely fair to question him.
Doug, you’ve stated that “virtually everything” Paul L has ever posted is ‘totally deranged’. When challenged on your irrational characterization, you lie about what was said.
DougJ
So that makes it okay to attack his Jewishness? Lord knows, surviving the Holocaust was a walk in the park. I’m not sure you even understand what kinds of waters you’re treading into here.
chopper
fine, john, you’ve made your point. you’ve heard some israeli dudes in south florida hate on arabs, so clearly you want to think that means most if not all israelis think arabs are animals and have an ‘ethnic hatred’ of them.
i personally will wait for a bit more evidence than that to convict an entire country and culture of being a bunch of racist hatemongers.
well, again i could say the same about blacks in america. many are forced into ghettoes, and many black neighborhoods and populations do not receive the same school and infrastructure funds as goes to the whites.
but again, does that mean that a majority of white americans think blacks are ‘animals’ or harbor an ‘ethnic hatred’ of them? i mean, the same logic applies, right? if you are judging israel so harshly based on the way its minority citizens are treated, then wouldn’t you say the same about america given that minority citizens in america suffer the same problems?
chopper
uh, darrell…hate to break this to you, but i didn’t post what you’re responding to, chriskoz did.
i didn’t quote you at all saying anything about arabs.
learn to read.
John S.
Ann Coulter, is that you?
I made the statement to put to rest Paul L.’s ridiculous accusation that I am on the side of holocaust deniers. Because you know, it makes sense that I would side with people who deny that the people with numbers tattooed on their fucking arms who I have loved and touched and seen for myself even existed in the first place.
Darrell
Paul L wasn’t “attacking” his Jewishness you dishonest hack, he was questioning whether, in the context of John S’ extreme anti-Israel comments, whether he thought he was speaking for other Jews in his family. An entirely reasonable question, give John S’ attempts to justify his extremist anti-Israel rhetoric.
I mean, how does one, who holds his “Jewishness” so dear, make statements like how the Jenin fraud proves how Israel has a “complete disregard for human rights and the safety of civilians”? It’s entirely fair to question this kind of extremism.
But in whackjob-world, that’s “questioning his Jewishness”. How rational of you Doug
demimondian
I’m going to join with DougJ in jumping on Darrell, here.
Darrell, I studied with Mary Ellen Rudin, who was married to a man named Walter. Walter was one of the foremost Functional Analysts of his generation, and I was lucky enough to take Intro Graduate Analysis from him. Walter was an Austrian-American Jew. He’d traveled off to England because he was a “smart boy”. His family told him they’d visit him as soon as they could.
He never saw any one of them again. They all died in the camps. Walter Rudin was the only member of his family to survive.
Can you imagine that? Can it ever, ever matter “what kind of Jews” Walter or his family were?
chriskoz
Tell you what Darrell… why don’t YOU post whatever it is you want to post that you think will save face.
I didn’t post the full statement because you made that smear in several places. Not because it changes the context in the least.
The fact is you smeared an entire race of people with your “arab lies” comments. Not “Hamas lies”. Not “Palestinian Authority lies”. Not even “Al Jazzera lies” or “Arab press lies”. “Arab lies” is what you talked about. In my book… that makes you a racist. (And including the rest or the statement doesn’t make one damn bit of difference.)
So please… explain to me how your comments that paint an entire race of people as liars are somehow excused because you happen to be talking about Jenin?
Or… you could admit that it was a mistake and amend your comments to properly label those who you see as the real liars.
And until you can find a comment that is directed at or is about me that I don’t respond to… your “deafening silence” retort comes off as stupid as you. (good luck with that one)
DougJ
I think about about a third of the Israeli population is against what is going on in Lebanon right now. You know, “they” (Israelis) aren’t in complete agreement about everything. And there’s Jews who don’t believe Israel should have been founded in the first place — these range from Satmar Hassidim (who are admittedly crazy, IHMO) to a moderate Republican, non-practicing Jewish friend of mine to Richard Cohen (of the Washington Post).
You see, being Jewish doesn’t mean you have to think any one thing about Israel. But it does probably mean that whatever you think about Israel isn’t born of anti-Semitism.
John S.
Fine, chopper. You’re right. Because you have sex with some Israeli chick that loves Arabs, then clearly you want to think that means that most if not all Israelis think Arabs are the coolest and want to share their country with them. And around and around we go…
Well, you could. But if you’re comparing it to the systemic problem that exists in Israel whereas Arab discrimination is concerned, then you’d be entirely full of shit.
If your ramblings are what you consider to be ‘logic’, then sure. Too bad whites in the government of America aren’t actively prosecuting a military excercise against blacks. But other than that and the fact that the Arab experience in Israel only resembles the black experience in America on an extremely superficial level, your ‘logic’ is entirely sound.
Darrell
Of course none of you dishonest assholes dares to re-post my comments in full context.
You scream like whining bitches whenever you think someone takes your position out of context, but then deliberately quote someone else out of context to change meaning, and defend your actions. How honorable of you
chopper
merely being jewish does not automatically confer an attitude that israel is just awesome. there are plenty of jewish people who take their religion and culture to heart, yet hate on many or most of the things israel does. the girl who lives downstairs from me is jewish, from a tight-knit jewish community, daughter of a rabbi etc etc, but she is quite liberal and has lots of complaints about israel.
not that i agree with john that israel has such complete disregard for civilians, but such a feeling does not automatically conflict with being a jew. not at all.
John S.
LOL
You are a completely deranged lunatic, but you know that already. Yes, my acceptance of the Amnesty International and Humans Right Watch reports that Israeli didn’t exactly go out of their way to avoid killing civilians at Jenin is PROOF that I am an anti-Israel extremist.
LMAO
Steve
Well, actually, when you start cross-examining a Jew on his Jewish credentials, that’s exactly what you’re doing.
You guys on the right are so convinced that all the racism, anti-semitism, etc. is on the left these days, that you seem congenitally incapable of recognizing that you could ever actually give offense to someone.
We’re not a particularly militant people, Darrell. There’s nothing that precludes even the most devout Jew from being a strong critic of Israel’s policies. In fact, you could make a case that just the opposite is true.
Darrell
But you can understand how such extreme comments “complete disregard for civilians..” etc. might cause reasonable people to question where you’re coming from, right?
jaime
There. “Arab Lies” in full context. Again. Why Arab lies and not just “lies about Jenin?
Darrell
In the context of John S’ extreme and offensive anti-Israeli remarks, it’s not at all unreasonable to question, as Paul L did, whether John S. thinks he speaks for ‘all’ Jews in his family, specifically the holocaust survivors. Because that was what he was questioned about.
DougJ
Darrell, you’re really a nut. Why do you talk about “arab lies” and accuse jews (whose fucking family members were in concentration camps) of not being real jews because they don’t like Olmert?
When I read the garbage Darrell and Paul L spew here, it makes me truly afraid for the future of this country. There really is an authoritarian minority that worships the Cowboy God King and will argue anything His Highness pleases, even if that means smearing Holocaust survivors.
chriskoz
Darrell says:
There… I re-posted one of your racist comments for you. (There are others I could have choosen, but it really doesn’t matter) So, spare me yor “out of context” whinning.
Now, once again… please explain how this doesn’t label the entire Arab race as liars. (Something which would be considered a racist act by anyone except for a racist)
Under what context is it ok to refer to an entire race as liars like that?
Tom in Texas
Israel obviously shows some regard for its civilians. That is verifiable. That being said, John is no Anti-Semite for stating they show complete disregard. He is simply wrong.
Darrell
Steve trots out his cartoonish unjustified stereotypes again.. he does so, because he, like most liberals, feel much more comfortable confronting those stereotypes, than actual conservatives.
No one (or hardly anyone) on the right is “convinced” that all the racism, anti-semitism, etc is on the left. Another strawman. But you see yourself as an ‘honest centrist’, right Steve.
Steve
It’s worth remembering that two of the most iconic figures in Israeli history, Menachem Begin and David Ben-Gurion, were on opposite sides regarding the King David Hotel bombing (which I assume we’re all familiar with, as Nutcutter has brought it up about 50 times…)
Disputes regarding Israeli tactics are as old as Israel itself. Why, this reminds me of a story…
chopper
look, i know you want to minimize my experience with the israeli community as nothing more than ‘having sex with some israeli chick’ (btw, we’ve been together for 5 years now). but i’m afraid you’ll have to give me a little more than ‘some dudes in south florida hate on arabs’ to convince me that israelis as a whole hate on arabs. sorry.
ask a black dude who voted in miami-dade in 2000 if he thinks there’s a systemic problem against blacks in america. sorry man, but you’ll have to do more than ‘arab schools and infrastructure don’t get as much funding’.
now, if you were trying to assert that there are plenty of israelis that think of arab citizens as second class, i wouldn’t argue. i’d disagree, but it would be more a matter of what you think ‘plenty of israelis’ means.
but you went the whole hog, saying that a majority of them feel that way. and extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, and you haven’t provided it.
call an entire culture racist if you want, but saying it doesn’t make it so.
Perry Como
If we were in 1920 it would be “Jewish lies”. The nouns have changed, but the underlying sentiment is the same.
chopper
sorry, but a jew is a jew. secular or not, anti-israel or not. you don’t question someone’s jewishness based on their political opinion about israel.
Darrell
More dishonesty. I never said or suggested “all” arabs are liars. I did point to an “arab lie”.. a lie and fraud which was perpetrated by arabs at Jenin.
I’m sorry that by pointing out that a particular lie was an arab lie, you feel uncomfortable with such specificity. That doesn’t make it untrue or racist though. But fuck you for your phony race baiting.
Perry Como
What we need is some honest race baiting, like questioning if someone is a real Jew.
chopper
smooth. honest. low-calorie.
Steve
I don’t remember a single case where you have ever acknowledged racism on the right, to tell you the truth. Even the Willie Horton ad – not a shred of racism there, no sirree. But yeah, I’ll stipulate that not everyone on the right is that extreme.
Honest? Yeah. Centrist? Dunno about that. Is there any room on the spectrum between “centrist” and “leftist whackjob,” pray tell?
jaime
Darrell lost. His MO is to say 1)something completely jackass ignorant, 2)get called on it immediately, 3)ignore the calls to answer for his statement, 4)then claim its out of context. It’s put back in context and then he repeats step 1-4 hoping you forgot the stupid shit he wrote…Like Chuck Schumer not boycotting Maliki.
Steve
“Jew lies,” Perry. You have to say it right.
With practice, it kinda rolls off the tongue, sort of like “Democrat party.”
Darrell
No one disputed whether or not he was a jew. That’s a strawman. Paul L did ask if John S. if he thought his extreme anti-Israel remarks represent the opinion of other jewish family members.
jaime
So if Mel Gibson disputed what Office Mee reported, he would be correct in calling it a “Jew lie”?
Perry Como
The lexicon, as far as I’ve been able to decipher it, is something along these lines:
honest conservatives – people that support the Bush administration
leftist whackjobs – people that do not support the Bush administration
centrists – dishonest leftist whackjobs
hth
Darrell
And such an honestly worded stipulation too.
Perry Como
Right. Or “Juden Lügen”, in the original dialect.
Keep digging Darrell.
Nutcutter
Precisely. This is not a Jewish issue, any more than the war in Iraq is a Christianity issue.
The Lebanon war is an Israeli government issue, just as the Iraq war is an American government issue.
It makes no more sense to hide behind Jewishness here than it would for Darrell to claim that opposing the Iraq war was an attack on Christianity. Which I presume he will, given the opportunity.
I am not accusing Jews of murder. I am accusing government officials and sociopathic military authorities of murder. Are they Jews? They could just as easily be Scientologists as far as I’m concerned.
chriskoz
Darrell (the racist) says:
So… which Arabs were you referring to with the “arab lies” tag? And why can’t you specificlly name them? (Is this like some sort of “Jane Hamshers of the left” comment)
See, my problem is that you were NOT specific enough and instead choose to label an entire race. I provided you with several non-racist examples that you could have used and that would have been far more correct. But, instead you decide to defend the braodest possible term that smears an entire race. That is a sure sign of racism.
As Perry said:
Are there any contexts under which you would be ok with someone talking about “Jewish lies”?
Darrell
I told you that if you could produce another example of a white criminal who perpetrated a similar crime (rape or murder) on the weekend furlough during Dukakis’ watch, then I would agree that would make the ad racist. I stipulated that up front.
Since you weren’t able to produce such an example because one likely doesn’t exist (otherwise Dem attack dogs would be trumpeting it by now), then the Willie Horton ad was entirely fair, showing how soft on crime Dukakis was, fighting for a program which released violent felons into neighborhoods on weekends. Dukakis defended the program even after Willie Horton’s rapefest was well publicized, and that type of thinking was/is out of the mainstream for most Americans. How ‘racist’ of the Republicans to point an example of Dukakis’ loopy liberalism
John S.
chopper-
I enjoyed your last post. You made some good arguments there. You say that all Israelis don’t hate Arabs – and I agree. I just happen to think a majority of them do.
I still think you’re way off base with your African-American comparison, but I get the point you are trying to make with it even though I disagree with the analogy.
Like a lot of opinions people have concerning Israel, we’ll just have to agree to disagree. And I apologize if yoou took my reference to your girlfriend as an attempt to minimize your relationship.
Darrell
My problem is that you are again lying your ass off, because I most certainly did not “label an entire race”. How telling that you are more disturbed by my (reasonable) wording, than you are at the lie and fraud which was perpetrated at Jenin. You have already denounced what the arabs did at Jenin, haven’t you chriskoz?
chopper
s’okay. besides, we need to stay united against our common enemy: darrell.
John S.
Postscript for you chopper:
I don’t think stating that a majority of Israelis see Arabs as second-class citizens is an extraordinary claim. But you do. And since you cannot prove that they don’t anymore than I can prove that they are, we’ll just have to leave it as a difference in opinion.
I never said the entire culture was racist. Israelis don’t even account for the majority of Jewish culture. Similarly, saying that Israelis aren’t prejudiced towards Arabs also doesn’t make it so.
jaime
Oh now we’re back on Willie Horton where Darell:
Lied about Al Gore bringing him up in the Primaries.
Blamed the MEDIA for inserting his picture in a Republican Campaign ad.
Ignored the fact that the creators of the ad considered it a playing of the race card.
Darrell, do you just fill your empty carcass of a soul with lies?
Andrew
Hey! Can’t we all get along and go campaign for Joe Lieberman? He’s super Jewish, and he loves Democrats and Republicans alike!
Steve
Yep, nothing racist about using the image of that scary black man. Like I said, you can’t even admit to the most obvious examples of racism on the right, and yet you want us to believe it’s a “cartoony stereotype” when I say wingnuts believe all the racism is on the left these days. Not a very persuasive case you’re making.
DougJ
Can we at least agree that the War on Christmas is a Christian issue?
demimondian
I don’t care about your religious affiliation, if any, ethnicity, if any, species, if any, SES, age, footedness, or degree of alopecia, but, damn it, THOSE ARE FIGHTING WORDS.
Perry Como
I think it’s a shame that we aren’t discussing all of the school being painted in Iraq.
Darrell
For reasons I stated above, use of Willie Horton as a campaign issue is not an “obvious example” of racism. If there were white guys released on the weekend furlough raping and murdering at the same time as Willie Horton and they still showed the photo of the “scary” black man, then you might have a case. But there weren’t, so you don’t.
What’s with calling Willie Horton’s photo that of a “scary black man” anyway? Would it not be considered a “scary” white guy if they showed the pic of violent white criminal? Just trying to probe to see how obsessed you are with race.
chriskoz
Darrell (the racist) says:
You are suggesting the word “arab” does not actually refer to “all arabs” or the “entire race”? So… what word would you use to refer to the entire Arab race? (This definitely sound more and more like the “Jane Hamshers of the left” crap) Guess what Darrell… when you use the word “arab” myself and most reasonable people think you are referring to the Arab race. So… when I post that you are making smears on an “entire race”, you can hardly claim that I am lying. (well… at least not if you are being honest)
Yes… I most certainly am more disturbed by racism than by the single incident at Jenin. Jenin is a disturbing event. But, racism is by far a larger and more destructive problem. And will unfortunately likely remain so, even after everyone from from Jenin is long dead.
And of course I also condemn those who were involved in lies about Jenin. However, simply because some of the individuals involved were arab, does not mean that I condemn the lies by referring to them as “Arab lies”. (that would be racist) If you are unable to see the difference… I understand. Many racists aren’t able to see thier own racism.
Steve
Heh.
demimondian
What happened to the second school which was being painted? Did some -dead-ender- -Al Qaeda operative- -Batthist- -Mahdi Army- terra-wrst bomb it? What about the children? Won’t anybody think of the children?
Perry Como
It’s just more Arab lies.
Steve
It’s just amazing that no matter how many Republicans apologize for the racist ad, Darrell continues to maintain there was nothing racist about it. Oh, and we’re winning in Iraq, and so forth.
Lee Atwater apologized for the ad on his deathbed. One of Reagan’s campaign managers admitted it was a racist ad. The ad’s own creator called Willie Horton’s image “every suburban mother’s worst nightmare.” Yet here’s Darrell, denying it all. Why shouldn’t we believe him when he says the right wing has no problem acknowledging its own racism?
Darrell
Well, racism in the sense that so many arabs in that part of the world believe that Jews are the “sons of monkeys and pigs” who have no right to exist and must be exterminated.
Krista
Would it not be considered kind of weird to refer to a violent criminal, who happens to be caucasian, as a “scary white man”? So why is it not considered equally weird to refer to a violent criminal, who happens to be African-American, as a “scary black man”?
Perry Como
Did you know that Arabs love gold?
Darrell
Steve was it Republicans, or 1 Republican? 1 Republican, Lee Atwater, who was was suffering from a brain tumor at the time of his repentence, does not represent “many” or “most” Republicans. So I ask you, how do justify using the “no matter how many Republicans” bit to make it seem like there were so many Repubs falling over themselves to apologize for the non-racist legitimate ad? And was the ad even run by the Republican party?
Perry Como
This is interesting:
Not only does Bush vastly increase the size of Federal government, he makes sure that Federal workers are paid twice as much as private sector workers!
Sincerely,
Leftist Whackjob
Steve
I’m not in the mood to repeat all the evidence a third time. I absolutely love your “you can’t believe Lee Atwater, he had a brain tumor!” defense, though.
Keep defending the Willie Horton ad as non-racist, please. It really helps me prove my point.
Darrell
Willie Horton was a violent felon with a history of in-prison violations (which Dukakis tried to hide) who raped a woman while on one of his weekend furlough vacations which Dukakis endorsed and defended. So because Horton happened to be black, using his crime as an example is “racist”.
Any white criminals raping or killing on weekend furlough at that time in Mass.? No? Just Willie Horton? Well then Steve, your racism allegations certainly seem well founded
Perry Como
Did you know that Arabs keep a bag of Arab gold around their necks?
John S.
See, what Darrell is doing is using “Lee Atwater had a brain tumor” to silence debate and to justify his racism.
For shame, Senator.
chriskoz
Darrell (the racist) says:
I agree… that is very racist. And I condemn it as much as any other racism I see.
Of course that doesn’t excuse your racism. But nice try at a dodge.
So, once again… Why is it “arab lies” instead of one of the other more specific non-racial options I (and others) have suggested? (and feel free to come up with your own non-racial options… if you can)
Darrell
Hold on a minute, you posted “It’s just amazing that no matter how many Republicans apologize for the racist ad” to make it seem like every other Republican was falling over themselves to apologize when they weren’t. When I point out that was not the case, you backpeddle like crazy. You still consider yourself to be an honest person Steve?
John S.
So that’s why a Muslim extremist killed that Dutch director, Van Gogh. Because in Austin Powers, Goldmember was Dutch – and he loved gold. When Muslims saw this, they took offense that a gold-loving person would be depicted as a non-Muslim, and a Dutch one at that.
It all makes sense now.
Perry Como
There’s a secret cabal of Arabs that control the media.
Darrell
Because it was hateful arabs who were perpetrating the lies and fraud at Jenin to make Israel look bad. I think it would be dishonest to pretend otherwise
Steve
I’m not backpedaling. For the love of Christ (whoops! bad Jew alert), I make a post citing THREE DIFFERENT REPUBLICANS, you respond to THAT VERY POST saying “oh, looks like it was only one Republican, and he had a brain tumor”… and then when I say I’m not going to repeat myself, you call it backpedaling?
Seriously, what the fuck?
John S.
You go, Darrell!
When you get up on your truth and honesty soapbox, I get this image of that chubby kid from the Goonies doing the Truffle Shuffle.
Perry Como
There’s a book called the Protocols of the Elders of Mecca that spells out the Arab agenda. Darrell, have you read it?
John S.
I’m telling you, Truffle shuffle all the way.
jg
To whom was the ad speaking?
jaime
It was the CREATORS and propagators of the Horton ad who knew it was racist when they created and aired it.
Thier Arab necks.
Darell seems like he’s a big fan of the self hating ex-gay/ jew Michael Wiener Savage, who by the way, blamed vicious attacks by secular jews for Mel Gibson’s anti-jew outburst.
Darrell
No you don’t. You don’t cite 3 different Republicans. Here is what you posted
Lee Atwater ‘repented’ on his deathbed suffering from a brain tumor. The ad’s creator didn’t say it was racist. He said it was every suburban mother’s nightmare, as it would be if it was a violent white criminal.
Either way, your “no matter how many Republicans” assertion was a dishonest as hell attempt to make it seem like there is/was widespread agreement among Republicans that the ad was racist when it wasn’t.
Darrell
To those Americans who consider it a bit loopy to be releasing violent felons into neighborhoods on weekend furloughs while still serving their sentences.
jg
darrell are you under the impression that if you accuse Steve or anyone here of dishonesty often enough other here will see you as more credible or something? I don’t know why you feel its productive to yell ‘liar’ at eveyone you respond to. Just make your point and leave the rest of the right wing attack startegy behind.
Darrell
So it doesn’t matter to you that Steve really was being dishonest?
jg
Try again. Here’s a hint:
Who lives in the suburbs?
Krista
Mad Libs time!
Fill it in as you choose and see if you can somehow make it NOT sound offensive.
jg
You call people on minor irrelevant details and think you are disputing thier argument. I think Steve made his case. If you can prove he only referenced 2 republicnas and not 3 means nothing to me. Prove his point is wrong.
Darrell
You tell me. Liberals find racism behind every rock, except when the straight up racists like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson are Dems.
jg
Because it was hateful Orcs who were perpetrating the lies and fraud at Mirkwood to make Isengard look bad. I think it would be dishonest to pretend otherwise
jg
You seriously think that satisfies as an answer to the question?
Who? Lives? In? The? Suburbs?
Steve
I literally spluttered as I read this. Not very dignified of me.
Here’s a good insight into Darrell’s debating “tactics.” Look at what I actually said, which Darrell even QUOTES:
Ok, so I cited three different people. Darrell’s response?
Leave aside the fact that both Darrell’s arguments are completely laughable, even by his standards. Point is, in order to make his “you only cited one Republican, and he had a brain tumor” argument, he had to completely ignore one of the three people I cited!
That’s Darrell in a nutshell. Ignore the evidence, and then call you dishonest as hell for not having any evidence. After you finally beat the evidence into his head with post after post, he’ll never admit he ignored it, he’ll just suggest some absurd reason why it was invalid all along. And so it goes, day after day.
Lest we forget, by the way, here’s what that guy Darrell ignored had to say:
It must be, you know, that he “had a book to sell.”
jaime
“Because it was hateful (ethnic group) who were perpetrating the (ethnic group) lies and fraud at (location) to make (country) look bad. I think it would be dishonest to pretend otherwise.”
That’s better.
Darrell
Ok
This is such stupid crap to be arguing over.. but if you libs must continue to insist that such-and-such examples “prove” Republican racism, and those examples are bullshit, then don’t cry when I point out that they really are bullshit.
Perry Como
jg
And this is how Darrell gets to revive this argument another day. He decides to walk away from the argument before he has to admit he’s wrong. Therfore in his mind he’s never debunked.
Perry Como
Darrell, can you tell us more about
JewArab lies?John S.
Darrell Says:
Uh-oh, folks, it looks like the Darrelltron 3000 has run out of steam! Quick, someone plug him into Powerline – stat!
jg
Who lives in the suburbs?
Darrell
Ok, so you lied that there were 3, when there were actually 2, and more to the point, you were dishonestly trying to assert that there was widespread agreement among Republicans that the Willie Horton ad was racist, when there’s no evidence such widespread agreement exists or existed, since the ad itself was not racist.
On a related note, explain how the ad was ‘racist’. Because it showed the pic of a black criminal who was the only one to have recently committed a violent crime while on weekend furlough?
Yeah, that’s a real ‘gotcha’ there libs
Steve
But of course, I did reference three:
1) Lee Atwater
2) Ed Rollins, Reagan’s campaign manager
3) Larry McCarthy, the Republican media consultant who made the ad
I mean, you probably assume you could trust the guy about the most basic facts, like how many sources were cited in a comment that just happened, but no. Not only does he pretend like you never said stuff that proves him wrong, but he calls you dishonest for supposedly not saying it!
That’s our Darrell: Honest Like Hezbollah.
Perry Como
jg
I know. But check out Darrell after I posted that:
Comedy Gold.
Darrell
Do you actually believe the ignorant racial stereotype that all blacks live in urban environments? Since you’re pushing so hard with the question, it looks as if you do believe that. Otherwise, what could possibly be your point?
jg
The funny thing is answering the question with the obvious answer, white people live in the suburbs, doesn’t really go far in proving the ad was racist, yet he still can’t answer the question because he would be conceding ground to me.
jg
Well, he half answered.
Do I have to believe it for it to be used in an ad? Some believe it. The ad works with them. Those who don’t believe that stereotype will have a different ad directed at them.
Steve
Don’t forget, my point in this debate was not that the Willie Horton ad was racist. That was the “debate” in an earlier thread, which Darrell has made me rehash all the evidence from by pretending that there wasn’t any.
No, my point was that Darrell won’t even acknowledge incredibly obvious racism when it comes from the right. Look at him, the man who created the ad called the picture of Willie Horton “every suburban mother’s greatest fear,” and Darrell’s like “there’s no racism in that! he would have said the same thing about a picture of a white man.”
Can there be any doubt that Darrell, and tragically many others like him, are in deep deep denial regarding issues of race?
jg
Why did he say ‘suburban’ mothers greatest fear? Why Suburban? Why not just every mothers greatest fear?
jg
Hard to say really. All I know about Darrell (and his half brother Specialist on Tapped) is that he reflexively disagrees with whatever a lefty says and has access to an endless supply of jackaloptic talking points. All he ever tells is how most people feel about things, never himself.
chriskoz
Darrell (the racist) says:
See now… you could have said “hatefull terrorists” or even “hatefull Hamas members”. There are plenty of honest ways to talk about it without resorting to racial labels. But, you choose “hatefull arabs”. And then claim it’s somehow dishonest not to use the “arab” label. It’s just got to be “hatefull arabs” and “arab lies”.
Like I said… many racists are never able to see thier own racism.
Did you know some of the initial high body counts at Jenin came from Isreal itself. (Israel says 150 Palestinians died) Would it be fair to refer to those as “Jew lies”? (I don’t think so)
jg
If Iran is involved we can’t just blame it all on arabs can we?
Darrell
I disagree for reasons already stated, that the Willie Horton ad is in any way an “obvious” example of racism on the right.
Willie Horton ad = racism, is a leftist sacred cow lie that the liberals have repeated to themselves over and over. I’ve already asked what was so ‘racist’ of the ad, and I get nothing but ‘deafening silence’ (borrowing that phrase from you libs). Willie Horton apparently was the ONLY criminal in the weekend furlough program who committed a violent crime during the furlough in the timeframe just before the primaries (and earlier?).
The weekend furlough idea was a classic example of liberal goofiness in their ideas on how to punish violent criminals. Dukakis fought vetoed the Mass. state legislature in their attempts to limit the program, and he fought to maintain the weekend furlough program even after Willie Horton’s rapefest.
The Willie Horton ad simply pointed out a program endorsed and defended by Dukakis to demonstrate how loopy liberals like Dukakis really are/were.
Steve
Something that’s rarely discussed is that Nixon not only had a Southern Strategy, he also had a suburban strategy. The polarized racial environment of the 1960’s had driven a lot of white families to leave the big cities for the suburbs, what they call “white flight.” Nixon realized that suburban voters really didn’t care about all the big urban renewal programs LBJ had sponsored, and that it was worth going for the growing bloc of (mostly white) suburban voters. Many Great Society programs never had a chance to bear fruit because Nixon made an issue out of cutting their funding.
The suburbs remained a Republican stronghold in the 70s and 80s, but times change, and the suburbs are less white bread than they used to be. Now the word on the street is that the suburbs are split but the “exurbs” are where you find the Republican base.
I’m not sure this is relevant to anything. I didn’t mean to go all Al Maviva.
jaime
When three of the people most responsible for putting the Horton ad on the air admit they played the race card, how could ANYONE continue to insist that it wasn’t racist?
Why don’t you just put your money where your Cheeto hole is, join the army, and leave us the fuck alone Darrell.
jg
To whom was the ad directed?
Who lives in the suburbs?
Darrell
This, from someone who declares an ad ‘racist’ simply because it dares to show the photo of a black criminal.. the ONLY criminal of any race who had committed a serious crime while on weekend furlough under Dukakis’ watch.
No Steve, it’s you and your fellow libs who are in denial about your phony attitudes about race. You’ll never admit it though.
Steve
Yep, that’s why Bush’s own campaign manager apologized for it, and Reagan’s campaign manager admitted it as well… just something the liberals made up with no evidence
Darrell
Actually, only 1 of the people “most responsible” for putting the Willie Horton ad on the air said it was racist, and he admitted that after suffering a brain tumor which seriously impaired him and eventually killed him. The other worked for Reagan, not Bush, and the creator of the ad never said the ad was racist.
jg
In my town that was caused by forced busing. An activist judge who decided white kids should be bussed to schools in black neighborhoods and vice versa. A lot of catholic high schools in the Boston areas suddenly had a huge pool of hockey talent with which to build a team.
Darrell
Steve, explain what was so ‘racist’ about that ad. You’ve made the allegation/smear, now explain why YOU think it was racist.
jaime
Wow. Wouldn’t that indicate the furlough program really, really, worked?
Hm?
jg
…and it was in the 70’s.
jg
Actually Steve, please don’t. He won’t be convinced so why bother.
jaime
I think he is convinced but would rather slit his own throat than admit he is wrong.
Darrell
I thought we spent trillions on the ‘War on Poverty’, far beyond initial projections. Now you libs are claiming it failed because we didn’t spend enough? Perry Como, you agree too?
Steve
You’re such a joke. Lee Atwater, the fucking campaign manager, admitted it was racist, and your only response is “uh, he had a brain tumor.”
Reagan’s campaign manager said the ad played the race card and you never offered any response at all… in fact you pretended I only cited 2 people rather than 3.
The ad’s creator called Horton’s mugshot “every suburban mother’s greatest fear,” and you see nothing racial in that statement whatsoever.
I have absolutely no need to continue Darrelling with you for another 200 posts.
jaime
Shuck and Jive, Shuck and Jive.
Say, I wonder if you caught the news that Chuck Schumer boycotted Maliki’s speech last week?
Darrell
Actually, libs are quite effective in intimidating Republicans on matters of race. Meanwhile, Dems run ads trying to link republicans with racist murders, and telling black voters that Repubs want to ‘turn back the clock’ on civil rights, etc.
It may not be honest, but it’s effective
jg
I have no idea what we spent on the war on poverty. My question to you is: We spent billions so it couldn’t have failed? Money spent equates to success? Could we maybe have spent the money unwisely and that’s why we failed?
Darrell
In other words, you’ve got nothing, just bullshit. That’s the thing with lib sacred cows, if you look under the surface, most have no substance or truth to them.
jg
Mother of God he is almost there. Keep pushing Darrell.
jaime
Don’t you have freedom to defend by playing Halo somewhere?
Steve
More to the point, I realize there’s no reason to waste time debating someone who can’t even count to 3.
Yeah, you sure proved I’ve got nothing, by quoting the last sentence of my post and completely ignoring the substance of the other three paragraphs… why don’t you call me ‘dishonest’ again, to claim a flawless victory.
jg
I know Darrell is just a troll messing with us but sadly there are lots of people who believe that…….because people like Darrell tell them its true. And they listen to people like Darrell. Because they tell them who is responsible for what they feel is wrong with this country.
Perry Como
It was a waste of money. You can’t wage war on a concept. Like the War on Drugs or the War on Terror. Now the War on Arabs… Arabs are a concrete thing. We sure as hell should wage war on Arabs.
Darrell
Entirely possible, but Steve asserted that the problem was funding “cuts” under Nixon, when in point of fact spending on social programs skyrocketed under Nixon. Another leftist myth with no basis in reality.
Btw jg, what’s with the coherent postings today? Normally you’re only good for Jim Allen/jaime drive-by insults with nothing of substance to add. Today you’re actually constructing halfway decent posts.
Steve
Some Great Society programs were smashing successes, some did rather poorly… kind of like the New Deal in that regard, another package of programs the Right loves to hate. I’d count housing projects as a pretty big failure on the whole… basically something that wound up as a big boondoggle for developers, due to lack of meaningful oversight in the Nixon years.
Nutcutter
Clusterfuck continues — US damaged in the world, thanks to support for Israel’s stupid war
Thus does the idiocy of the war, and the even greater idiocy of George Bush, continue to affect your safety.
War on Terror? Heh. Yeah. More like a war on sanity.
Bush’s problem here hangs principally from enormous gaffes he’s made in the last three weeks:
1) Talking as if the people of Lebanon should have welcomed the bombing of their own country as an opportunity to rid themselves of Hezbollah.
2) Suggesting that peace is better served by not having a cease-fire. Note to those of you who have never heard of a cease-fire before? Cease fires are not automatic paths to longterm peace. They are nothing more than agreements to STOP SHOOTING AND KILLING PEOPLE …. while the process of peace finds the way to …. peace. The insane lie that peace is served by continuing to kill people is probably the single most damaging position this government has taken since it decided to invade Iraq.
3) Apparently not even able to get straight with his own Secretary of State who continues to call for a near-term cease fire, “in days” according to news reports I heard on CNN this afternoon. If this war is such a good idea, why is Condi Rice trying to call a halt to the killing so quickly?
Craziness, madness, and lies. Daily. Who could make up such shit, and who could believe it other than certifiably mental cases like Darrell?
Steve
Uh, I know you think Darrell is a powerful conservative voice and all, because he has the awesome megaphone of the Balloon Juice comments section… but it’s pretty clear that Darrell is one of the listeners, not one of the talkers. Notice how whenever he gets confronted with an argument that he can’t Google a response to, he’s completely at sea and starts making “brain tumor” arguments.
jaime
It isn’t a driveby because I’m standing over you smacking you around.
You deserve no respect and the faster you and your pathetic kind realize you are dying a quick death and crawl back under the rock you were shat out from, the better for everone on this board and this country.
jg
Possibly the skyrocketing social programs aren’t the items referred to when discussing programs to combat poverty. Combatting poverty means getting people out of poverty, social programs keep people who are in poverty, alive.
Darrell
I’ve got to go get some ice now to put on all those ‘smacks’ you gave me jaime. Keep up the good work.
jaime
jg, quit engaging that asshole. The minute Darrell gets stuck, he will lie, evade, and ignore. The best way to kill a troll is to ignore it.
demimondian
Wow. That’s what, four separate mixed metaphors in two sentences? I am in…awe.
jaime
Hey, did you hear that Chuck Shumer boycotted Maliki’s speech?
Darrell
Notwithstanding the bullshit in the second half of that post, this comment is pretty damn funny.. and a surprisingly reality based perspective
jaime
I ain’t no speechifier.
Steve
You shouldn’t miss this interview from the serious foreign policy analysts at NRO.
jg
I sure do hope there is a dump truck full of sarcasm in there.
Ok I’ll be good.
It would help if a new topic came along once or twice a month. Dead blog walking!!!
Perry Como
Sometimes it’s more fun to poke them with sharp sticks.
Nutcutter
Duh.
(Via Kevin Drum).
Darrell
With surveys showing Lebanese opinion increasingly supporting Hezbollah, why was that such a bad/stupid question? Please explain
Perry Como
I’m not sure which is funnier. Seeing an ad for Cato juxtaposed with an ad for “Neconservatives: Why We Need Them”, or someone taking the NRO’s opinion on anything seriously.
Darrell
Speaking of the ever so racially tolerant left, Jane Hamsher posted this photoshop at Huffington Post, then courageously removed later.
Perry Como
Wow. I’m browsing The Corner (going to need to wash my monitor out after this) and it’s like the short bus of conservatism.
demimondian
But they’re Strong. Serious. Steady.
Steve
Let’s assume you and I can agree on certain things, such as the fact that Lebanon, and the whole world for that matter, would be a better place without Hezbollah.
Okay. Now the conservative thought process seems to be, Hezbollah needs to be disarmed/eliminated, and Israel needs to do it since no one else will. Therefore, like with Iraq, the problem is entirely in people’s heads – if only the Lebanese/Iraqis would realize that the bombing/invasion was all for their own good, everything would be fine.
What I would suggest is that you reason in the opposite direction. The fact that the Israeli campaign has strengthened the previously weak levels of support for Hezbollah, take that as a given, not something that can be fixed if only we could get enough Lebanese to read NRO. Now, with that as a given, think about whether there is anything else that could be done to hurt Hezbollah without increasing their support.
The guy being interviewed says some things that are bizarre, but he also has some good thoughts along these lines. You should read the whole interview.
Perry Como
So is an 18 wheeler headed towards a brick wall at 60 mph. I guess the results are the same too.
SRSLY
demimondian
Force Hizbollah members to read NRO? Even buy them free subscriptions? Within a few days, their brains would be pouring out of their ears…
God, that’s a great idea, Steve!
Steve
A reminder of why I’m not a big fan of Jane Hamsher as a blogger. Some of the Jane Hamshers of the Left are okay, though.
Nutcutter
I think at this point we have to argue that the latter invasion is nuttier than the earlier one.
The Israel strategy apparently requires one to believe that a country that was occupied BY ISRAEL for 20 years, resulting in death and destruction and misery, and resulting in the gestation of Hezbollah into a major fighting force in that region …. will now accede to invasion and bobming BY ISRAEL only a few years later, and that this will somehow transform Lebanon into a more secure neighbor for Israel in its search for … you know … peace. Because if there is ONE THING the sixty years of war that Israel has managed to embroil itself in is all about, it’s peace. Peace through war.
And this is the model that the United States now adopts as its preferable path to peace in a world now crawling with terrorists: Peace, through war.
Who’s still buying this crazy sociopathic shit?
Besides Darrell, I mean?
demimondian
They both have an impact, I guess.
O RLY
Perry Como
I thought an anti-torture laq was passed. Or did Bush’s signing statement exempt the NRO?
jaime
Alberto Gonzales has already declared them quaint.
Steve
I read that whole Tony Blair speech. The guy is totally a cipher to me, sometimes he sounds like the Good Bush, sometimes he’s a complete nutter. The funny thing is, he could easily sell America on the whole Bush foreign policy agenda and be quite popular while doing so (unlike Bush), although the accent does help a lot.
He starts off by saying that we need to fundamentally rethink our approach in the Middle East, how the message of the radical Islamists is to convince people that it’s a struggle of Islam vs. the Evil West as opposed to radical Islam trying to remake Islam. He seems to be suggesting that when we overplay our hand, we play right into their hands by giving them evidence for their narrative of Islam vs. the West.
But then he goes on to say that you’re batshit insane if you think the invasion of Iraq has made us less safe, something that doesn’t seem to square at all with the case he made. He goes on to say that we need to tell Syria and Iran that they either renounce ties to terrorism and radical Islam or they will be “confronted,” and we all know what that means.
So he seems to be saying we need to radically rethink our approach, but then he argues for what seems to be the same old neocon agenda that we’ve heard all along. Maybe I’m missing something, because he sure doesn’t make it sound like a “stay the course” speech.
He also talks about the need to make the Israel-Palestine situation a much higher priority and to end the present conflict so we can make real efforts towards the two-state solution. I’m not doing this part of the speech justice but I think he made some good points.
Anyway, I think it’s worth discussing if anyone feels like reading the whole thing.
demimondian
No, John Yoo has pointed out that the President has unlimited free speech in time of war.
Perry Como
er, law. Here’s a bunny with a pancake on its head.
Perry Como
Bush Grants Self Permission To Grant More Power To Self
Nutcutter
No comment should be necessary.
Darrell
Well, not exactly
and he makes this suggestion:
Maybe. Except a reality based person would recognize there has already been a UN multinational force in Lebanon that essentially did nothing to protect Israelis or Lebanese. They failed to protect them, as they always do.. like Rwanda, like in Srebrenica, UN troops stepping aside in 1967 letting arabs attack israel, UN inability to protect Israel from S. Lebanon etc, etc. That is the reality which I don’t see many on the left acknowledge.
An international coalition with any hope of succeeding could not be UN controlled, it would have to be under US or NATO control, and I don’t see that possibility able to materialize. Certainly not anytime soon
The Easter Bunny
Knock it off, bitch. That shit ain’t funny.
Perry Como
Cup o’ tea?
demimondian
Perry — I like the fact that your web site discriminates against IE7, and forces me to use (ick!) Firefox to see those pictures.
Why do you hate our freedoms, Como?
Perry Como
That’s someone else’s site. But I’m glad you can’t use IE. IE is the devil.
chriskoz
Oddly… I have the opposite problem. Firefox gives me a 403 error. But IE works.
Nutcutter
POPE INVITES WRATH OF DARRELL!
Obviously the Pontiff does not read Balloon-Juice. Otherwise he’d know that he’s in for now: Who the FUCK does the Pope think he is?
Is the Pope anti-semitic? Is he objective pro-terrorist?
Fuckin Pope, anyway. Let him have it, Darrell. Fuckin Pope is no match for your ridicule.
demimondian
You watch your mouth, bub, or I’ll have to go all Republican on your heinie.
demimondian
PPG, you know, I don’t think that I’d be exactly thrilled to have Pope Benedict and Justain Raimondo have my back in a debate about rights.
tBone
It doesn’t force you to use Firefox. Safari works fine.
Heh heh heh.
Nutcutter
I know. When there are hundreds of dead children, you want to be sure to line yourself up with the most attractive allies. That’s the most important thing.
Luckily, you have Darrell on your side, so you’re covered. How do you think I feel, out here all alone? And I’m not even one of God’s People.
Anyone who can defend killing kids in their sleep is the one I want to have my back! Where’s Paul L. when you need him?
Darrell
yawn. Vatican opposes another battle/war.
Darrell
What does the war in Afghanistan have to do with it?
demimondian
By the way, jg used the phrase “jackaloptic talking points” further up the thread. I like that word: “jackaloptic”; it sort of combines the odd vision required (the “optic” part), the loathesome scavenging through Google by referencing a “jackal”, and brings in the vaguely cute-and-cuddly bunny image with the “lop” (as in “lop-eared”) syllable.
Nutcutter
Dead children from wall to wall, and this is Darrell’s summation.
Fucking turd.
The Easter Bunny
Keep diggin’ that hole, dickalicious. You’ll be sorry when you’re frantically clawing for air due to the Peeps inextricably lodged in your windpipe.
demimondian
No, that’s just the Jobs Reality Distortion Field messing with your mind.
tBone
Look, I’m telling you, it works fine. Those pictures Perry linked to show a beatific Steve Jobs, his strong, noble features framed by the warm glow of his halo. You know, just like all of the other pictures on the Internet.
DougJ
More anti-Catholic filth from the blog’s resident bigot.
demimondian
Uh, tBone. I want you to take a deep breath. Now, slowly — really, slowly — put down the iProduct. Good. Now, step this way. See this? It’s called a door. Your front door. Now, we’re going to open it…really, it’s ok….yes, there. And you’re going to step outside.
Huh? No, this isn’t a room with a funny ceiling. Huh? No, that’s not some cool widget animation; those are “clouds”. What? No, that’s not some kind of fake Windows interface.
Now, listen carefully: those weren’t pictures of Steve Jobs. They were pictures of Larry Ellison.
tBone
Maybe so. But Steve Jobs was the photographer.
Perry Como
Nothing beats the iBrator. The OSS community would launch their version, but it would be incredibly complex and the only people that could work it would be pimply faced teenagers or guys that looked like Grizzly Adams. Then Microsoft would release a competing version a few years later, but it would be full of viruses.
demimondian
That would explain why one of the images looked like rabbit in a white plastic box to me.
demimondian
Yeah, but it would be much bigger, and it would ship with an attached dishcloth. (The PM in charge of the operation having determined that 63% of all individuals who ever used an iBrator also washed dishes.) The dishcloth would actually be the source of the viruses, but Microsoft would explain that it dishcloths were coming to be part of the operating system. Six versions later, Microsoft would quietly remove the dishcloth, and offer it as an optional download.
DougJ
Do you guys ever check out BullMoose blog? That guy is seriously off his meds:
demimondian
Marshall Whitman is an advocate for something he calls the “vital center” of American politics: a pro-defense, anti-authoritarian moderation. He views the left as anti-defense, harking back to a Teddy Roosevelt style “muscular progessivism” as a better model for a successful challenge to the status quo.
He views the anti-Iraq movement as being broadly supported by a pacifist submovement, and, I think correctly, judges pacifism to be a losing feature in American politics. I think he goes off the rails in believing that many, or even most, of the opposition to Iraq is pacifist, and in forgetting that anti-war politicians can win. That’s a long way of saying that I think he’s wrong, but not crazy wrong.
Tom in Texas
Darrell;
I posted this same item earlier today upthread. While I think John’s defense for his accusing Hamsher of WP conspiracies was hysterical, I think Hamsher is one of the most dishonest bloggers today. I have been banned from her site dozens of times, by both her and Christy, for saying and linking something they don’t agree with. I never called them names, just disagreed. Thus I disappeared and my comments were scrubbed.
DougJ
Try reading his blog again and then tell me he’s not crazy, demi.
Perry Como
Perry Como believes that anyone that talks about himself in third person is a nut.
chopper
true enough, but remember you made the assertion re: isreali sentiments; the onus is on you to provide some evidence, rather than on me to prove the negative.
all in all, normal disagreement is a good thing. he says as his post is buried under 200 posts in a darrell-flame-war…
Pb
From today’s WaPo:
And here’s their report…
GOP4Me
Somebody needs to start writing a centrist spoof. It weould be difficult work, and not as emotionally rewarding as spoofing Darrell; but I think if you stole enough Joe Lieberman and Tom Friedman talking points, you could pull it off.
My favorite Teddy Roosevelt moment was when he attacked the very notion of reducing trolley workers’ workdays from 15 hours a day to 8 hours a day. He said the proposed legislation on the subject was “socialistic” and that it would “hurt the free market.” I defended those comments very strenuously on Scrutator at one point.
demimondian
The eldest of the demi-offspring and I were seriously considering doing just that. We figured that by alternating our views, we’d come up with something sufficiently inchoherent to capture the modern American political center.
Andrew
Marshall Whitman is the Jane Hamsher of the vital center.
GOP4Me
That sounds about right. But it would be a real challenge to capture the essence of their peculiar form of craven chest-thumping, wouldn’t it?
GOP4Me
LOL
Andrew
Not at all. There’s even a formula:
sqrt(Social liberal + war hawk) * (serious)^2 / (DO NOT ENLIST) = Peter Beinart
GOP4Me
Ooh, but I’m no good at math!
demimondian
Not really. The center can always blame the Jade Hamsters of the left or the Dick Shaveknees of the right for their views.
demimondian
Here we go…
Darrell
Besides Tim F, you’re one of the easiest going lefties posting here at BJ Tom, so for her to ban you and then delete your comments, that seems way extreme.
“No toleration of dissent will be permitted in our echo chamber”
John S.
Sigmund Freud’s most special little boy. He gets a lollipop everytime he projects his own flaws onto others.
Paul L.
For John S.
Human Rights Watch and false moral equivalence