Via Michelle Malkin, Andrew Cochran:
The decision is actually a huge political gift to President Bush, and the detainees will not be released that easily. The President and GOP leaders will propose a bill to override the decision and keep the terrorists in jail until they are securely transferred to host countries for permanent punishment. The Administration and its allies will release plenty of information on the terrorist acts committed by the detainees for which they were detained. They will also release information about those terrorist acts committed by Gitmo prisoners after they were released. They will challenge the “judicial interference with national security” and challenge dissenting Congressmen and civil libertarians to either stand with the terrorists or the American people. The Pentagon will continue to release a small number of detainees as circumstances allow. The bill will pass easily and quickly. And if the Supremes invalidate that law, we’ll see another legislative response, and another, until they get it right. Just watch.
Let’s put aside the inherent nihilism in this response- the first thought of Mr. Cochran is not how to fix the current situation, but the political opportunities made possible by this situation. A goodly portion of the mess this country is in can be traced to this mentality- political power comes first, the good of the country dead last.
Let’s put aside the instinctive rush to simply find a way to do whatever the administration wants- this decision means nothing, it doesn’t mean we should step back and think about what we are doing- none of that. We are right, and let’s just find a way to do what we want to do, by hook or by crook.
Put those aside, and there is still something even more offensive about this passage:
They will challenge the “judicial interference with national security” and challenge dissenting Congressmen and civil libertarians to either stand with the terrorists or the American people.
It never gets old, being told you are a traitor and in league with the terrorists because you disagree with current administration policy.
Let me be the first to tell Andrew Cochran, whoever that is, to go fuck himself. Twice.
** Update **
It has been brought to my attention that Mr. Cochran may not be saying this is what they should do, but what they will do. If that is the case, my apologies. If not… well, I am not going to say it again.
David
Now that’s a trackback he’ll be glad to see.
Nutcutter
This material from NYT accidentally finds its way onto my clipboard this morning.
It should cheer everyone up. Basically, it’s like this: When this government tells you what it “needs” to fight a war on terror, here’s the rational response: Yeah, what we need is a new fucking government, because this one obviuosly has no goddam clue whatever.
Punchy
Unfortunately, he’s dead-on. They’ll make one big-ass law allowing for sham trials, NSA spying, warrantless wiretapping…throwing everything but the sink in there…and daring the Dems to filibuster it.
And when they do, it’ll be “Dems favor AQ over America” headlines until the mid-terms.
Andrew
Round of applause for JC on his general sense of disgust with Republican politics.
However, I think you may have misread Cochran. He may (and I emphasize may) be saying that is what the Republicans will do, not what a honest, decent American would do. If that is the case, then I think we may all be in agreement that the Republicans are fuck ups.
On the other hand, if that is what Cochran thinks should happen, then I concur with the hisself fucking.
Steve
While I don’t doubt the efficacy of this tactic (witness Jose Padilla, the “dirty bomber” who somehow never got charged wtih being a dirty bomber), isn’t it kind of ironic, in the context of arguing why someone isn’t entitled to a trial, to talk about how much evidence you have against him?
I look forward to this tactic as well. “Why would you want to change our current system of distinguishing the guilty from the innocent – look at all these cases where it failed!”
DBL
It really doesn’t matter whether Hamadan or any of the Gitmo prisoners are ever tried for war crimes. The important thing is that the Court acknowledged that they can be imprisoned for the duration of hostilities. The Court will not force the Government to release Hamdan and his compatriots to return to the field of battle. That’s all that counts.
John D.
Bullshit.
Imprisoning someone without ever charging or trying them is completely antithetical to what America stands for. Am I happy these guys are going to be staying in jail? You betcha. I’ll be even happier when they are tried and convicted, assuming they are guilty.
mitch
Where is Andrew Jackson when we need him?
Tax Analyst
John, although I’ve read your blog for some months now, I just started posting a bit the other day. I agree with your call here 100%. It is exactly what anybody who actually gives a damn about our country should be thinking. I might mention, however, that I’ve run into the type of thinking you just busted in Cochran’s piece WAY too often when talking to folks who claim to be “Conservative”…and they seem to take a certain childish joy from the “cleverness” of this sick rubbish. I’ve come to conclude that many are so detached from reality that the whole nauseating farce is just some type of freaking game to them…”Rah-Rah-Rah, WE’RE winning and you are a LOSER…WE won the last Election…so that makes you WRONG…as well as a LOSER.” I have to say when the tide turns, as I believe it eventually will have to, it’s going to be very hard to respond with any sort of grace or to attempt to foster the sense of unity that will be required to make things work here again. I’m just not sure these folks can be pulled on board. And when that happens I’m just gonna want to beat the living crap out of them with my Olive Branch.
Otto Man
Well said. The Bush team excels at only one thing, politics. They see everything through that lens, and if they can squeeze out one more vote at the expense of this country’s well-being, so be it.
SeesThroughIt
Yeah, probably. It’s pretty much the only tactic they have left. Well, that and trashing gays.
That said: Right the fuck on, John.
RSA
My favorite part:
Disagreeing with the president about how Guatanamo prisoners should be tried (e.g., allowing them to be present at their trials) means letting them go. We’ve heard this before, how if we liberals are against torturing enemy combatants, we’re for having them living in luxury hotels. If we want the NSA to get warrants before listening to our phone conversations, we’re appeasing terrorists. Oh, and waving the white flag. Have Bush and his cronies no shame?
Jim Allen
Good post, John.
I have two conflicting thoughts, though. On the one hand, I want to thank you for wading through that harpy Malkin’s site so we don’t have to, and on the other I want to ask you what the hell you’re doing still reading that harpy Malkin’s site in the first place.
Jim Allen
BTW, my reading of Cochran is that he’s saying “this is what they will do”, but also that he approves of it.
Maybe he should just fuck himself once for now, and we’ll see about the other one later.
Tax Analyst
Jim, it’s a dirty job…I’m glad John is willing to do it and still able to hold back his gag reflex long enough to share his thoughts on it and open up some space to talk about it.
The Other Steve
John Cole has now become an Official Member of the Shrill Left club.
Or as we like to call ourselves the Pissed Off Radicalized Middle.
Welcome aboard.
DBL
John D – Guilty of what? I think it’s safe to assume that most of the combatants we captured in Afghanistan and have now interned at Gitmo neither violated any American laws nor committed any war crimes. All they did was bear arms against US soldiers on the field of battle. Similarly, most of the soldiers captured in WWII or WWI or Korea or Vietnam did not violate any American laws or commit any war crimes, and no one thought there was a problem interning them for the duration of hositlities. What’s the difference?
The Other Steve
BTW. Everybody who wants to see all terrorists released from gitmo, sent back to Saudi Arabia and paid a $100,000 severance package, please speak up now.
hmm…
Why am I hearing crickets?
Richard Bottoms
>Round of applause for JC on his general sense of disgust with >Republican politics.
Sure glad I didn’t for these people. JC’s partly responsible for this mess and until president dickhead leaves office I won’t cease remining him of the fact.
But there is a reason for needling him on it.
I want to make sure come election time we don’t hear any more crap about how the Democrats are not worthy of support because they don’t lie and manipulate the media as well as the thugs currently running things.
The offenses of this administration against human deceny and proper warfighting as well as our very constitution are so huge saying I’m sorry isn’t enough. At least not yet.
Twenty-five hundred dead soldiers and 20,000 wounded demand a rekoning with justice and history.
Kirk Spencer
DBL, as near as I can tell you’re massively misinterpreting the combination of decisions. However, I’m going to assume you’re only viewing this case in isolation, and point out that you’re missing the key point.
The first case is Hamdi. The keystone there is that a US citizen arrested for the crime of “illegal combatant” was entitled to his day in court – a hearing to officially determine the status was required, and the charge didn’t exempt itself from court review.
The second case to recall is Rasul. The keystone of that case’s decision is that the detainees at Gitmo have the right to habeus corpus. Or in plain english, Show cause to detain or release. Basically, it continued the preexisting rule that foreign nationals imprisoned by the US are treated by US rules just as US nationals so imprisoned. This had two subsequent actions:
1) The government initiated military commissions against the detainees to confirm their illegal combatant status (and other crimes);
2) Congress wrote and passed the DTA.
Now we have to consider a point external from the court system. Basically, the rules for treatment of detainees depends on their status. If they are prisoners of war they have rights and expectations of release different from those of civil criminals which differ yet again if they are ‘illegal combatants’. The first and last can be held for the duration of hostilities. The second can only be held for a period of time consistne with what the law holds already – no ex post facto changes to sentences or special rules extending (or reducing) sentences for national status are permitted.
Now we can consider Hamdan. You are, again, literally correct. Hamdan does not order the release of the prisoners. In fact, Justice Stevens specifies that the court is NOT saying the sentences can or must be shorter than the duration of hostilities. But…
They’re saying the commissions created as a consequence of Hamdi and Rasul are wrong. That the hearings are illegal and need redone so as to comply with the law of the US – to be, in simple, a FAIR AND HONEST TRIAL. What’s also been reiterated in Hamdan is that unless and until a hearing – a FAIR AND HONEST TRIAL – is held, detainees cannot be identified as illegal combatants. They’re either EPWs (er, POWs) or they’re civilian detainees awaiting trial for (civil) criminal charges.
I think that’s the real kicker in here. What the court’s said is that the president can’t ‘just declare’ guilt of ‘illegal combatant’. And he can’t create a kangaroo court to rubberstamp that conviction. ICs and EPWs can be held for the duration. Civil Criminals, well, it depends on the length of the sentence and how long the war continues. But ALL of that is to be determined in accordance with rule of law.
John D.
DBL – As long as they are POWs and treated as such, I have no problems with it. This administration, however, has long maintained that they are *not* POWs. So, why are we holding them? The only other justification we have for rendering them hors de combat is that they have committed a crime, hence they are criminals, hence they need to be charged and tried. Terrorism is a violation of international law, and is a perfectly reasonable crime to charge them with — so why haven’t they done so?
As I’ve maintained here for months, I want to see the law followed. If these guys are terrorists, charge ’em, try ’em, convict ’em. Stop sticking them in legal limbo. The USSR used to disappear people — I’d rather not see my country go down that route.
The Other Steve
What do you mean “all they did”? Bearing arms against America is a WAR CRIME!
Yeah, it’s kind of pathetic. The fact that we treated the POWs in WWII fairly helped the reconciliation after the war. I don’t know what we’re going to do here. We can never release these guys, as we’ve just reinforced their hatred.
It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy.
The Other Steve
Kirk Spencer – good post.
SeesThroughIt
Not bad, but I think we should use “Normals” instead of “Middle” because it’ll reinforce that rabid partisanship is an abnormal mental state. Also, it’ll make the group’s acronym PORN, which is sure to get the social con dickheads all atwitter.
Anderson
The Administration and its allies will release plenty of information on the terrorist acts committed by the detainees for which they were detained.
That would be a first, actually. It’s laughable how vague the charges against Hamdan were.
The important thing is that the Court acknowledged that they can be imprisoned for the duration of hostilities.
No. Hamdan didn’t raise that issue, so it wasn’t before the Court. Appellate courts rule on allegations of error brought by the appellants; they do not airily re-do the case from the ground up.
DBL
John D – I think you are partially correct. It is clear beyond doubt that combatants captured on the field of battle can be held for the duration of hostilities. That has been the law for centuries. No trial is required to keep combatants from returning to the field of battle.
The only issue here is whether the Gitmo internees are entitled to the protections that the Geneva Convention gives to prisoners of war, i.e., the right not to be interrogated at all (POWs only have to give their name, rank and serial number). IMHO, the answer is no, the Geneva Convention protects regular, uniformed combatants of the signatories to the Convention. I haven’t read all of the Hamdan opinions yet or parsed through the votes to see whether a majority of the Court ruled on this issue or not.
Whether or not the Gitmo guys are immune from interrogation or not, though, they aren’t going anywhere until the war ends or the US Army concludes that they are no longer dangerous.
I would note, also, that a holding that captured AQ fighters can’t be interrogated significantly reduces the interest the US has in capturing them alive. You should not be surprised at the likely consequences.
Andrew
Actually, the really tough moral and practical quandry is that many of the detainees in Gitmo DID NOT bear arms against the US in any way. Many were picked up on mere suspicion of association with the Taliban on the word of political rivals.
However, after being stuck in an extra-legal limbo and, um, well, being tortured and abused for 4 years, it is completely reasonable to suspect that if these quite possibly innocent people, if they were to be released, would turn to terrorism or fighting with the Taliban against the US to seek some measure of revenge. Could you blame them?
In all likelyhood we have imprisoned innocents and made them our enemies.
chopper
man, i so cannot wait for a dem president. if only to see ‘conservatives’ pull the hardest U-turn in american political history and start decrying the ‘unitary executive’ with unlimited powers. it’s gonna be so funny i’ll plotz.
Steve
Kirk, good post, but I think you are mistaken about something. As I understand Hamdan, the case deals not with tribunals which were set up for the limited purpose of deciding who was an enemy combatant, but tribunals which were set up (pursuant, I think, to a November 2001 executive order) to try certain detainees for substantive offenses.
Thus, there’s a whole discussion in Hamdan about whether conspiracy to violate the law of war is a criminal offense, as opposed to actual violations of the law of war. If these tribunals were strictly about deciding who is and who isn’t an enemy combatant, they wouldn’t need to be making determinations about what constitutes a war crime. This tribunal, unless I’m mistaken, was not simply convened to determine whether Hamdan was an enemy combatant; they were actually trying to find Hamdan guilty of a crime.
Cyrus
It’s got to the point where the only difference between John and Tim F. is their writing styles. I don’t know if I should call that “good” or not.
On another note, I followed the trackback to protein wisdom under Cochran’s post and was amused to see that Jeff Goldstein, though it seems that unlike you he is disgusted and/or panicked at the ruling itself, shared the disgust at the political opportunism.
“The duration of hostilities” is the tricky part. Everyone to the right of Pat Buchanan would scream bloody murder if we locked up drug dealers for the duration of hostilities in the war on drugs, and with good reason, so the same way of handling terrorists in the war on terrorism is just as suspect. Yes, I know there are a lot of reasons I shouldn’t compare one war often used for partisan politics on a vague abstract noun that we disapprove of when it suits us to another, but if the government only has these powers because of exceptional circumstances, then almost by definition it should/will lose those powers eventually. “Duration of hostilities” provides no guide for when that is, and an easy way to forestall that time indefinitely.
Also, you seem to buy into the myth that the only alternative to the current situation is to let the terrorists go and give up. As I understand it, most of them — not all, probably, but most — committed crimes or conspired to commit crimes in the United States or in countries that have extradition treaties with us. Charge them with those crimes, and I think the feared harm from giving them PR or whatever will be more than made up for by the demonstration of adherence to ideals like the rule of law.
Marcus Wellby
And you don’t think the left would pull a rather hard U-turn themselves? bunch of lunatics on both sides.
its the media’s u-turn that will be the most fun to watch, and most revealing. with a dem in the WH you can bet your ass the press will suddenly remember how to do investigative reporting.
Slide
I love it. I know all the drolling moronic bedwetters of the right think this is a winner for them. This “you’re with us or you’re with them” mentality. But they are sadly mistaken, just like they were when they thought the Schiavo disaster was a “winner” for them. They are getting increasinly out of touch with where this country is right now. They may be firing up their base but they ain’t winning over any independents with this shit that is for sure. Attacking a war vet like Murtha as somehow “with” the terrorists? lol… bring it up you little cowardly bedwetting punks… Come on Congressman King… call the NY Times traitors some more, that will go over well in the suburban NY community where you will be running in November. Lets debate investigating the NY Times for leaks in congress and while we’re at it lets include Scooter’s leaks to Judy Miller.
Big miscalculation on the part of the GOP. The public no longer buys it boys and girls. You are becoming increasingly irrelevant. Come on.. more flag burning amendments… more gay marriage amendments.. bring it on, bring it on.
The Other Steve
DBL –
You’re implying a crime in violation of the UCMJ, so I guess we should not be surprised to see more marines in the stockade.
However, it should be noted that holding that AQ fighters will be interrogated significantly reduces the interest that AQ members have in being captured alive. You should not be surprised at the likely consequences.
Pb
I’d like to see all non-terrorists released from Gitmo…
The Other Steve
BTW, before the moonbat Darrels of the right jump on that.
I believe that the backbone of a military is discipline, and adherence to the UCMJ.
It’s one thing to get an army to shoot, it’s discipline that makes it possible for an army to be shot at and hold it’s ground.
An army which loses discipline loses the war.
p.lukasiak
The only issue here is whether the Gitmo internees are entitled to the protections that the Geneva Convention gives to prisoners of war, i.e., the right not to be interrogated at all (POWs only have to give their name, rank and serial number). IMHO, the answer is no, the Geneva Convention protects regular, uniformed combatants of the signatories to the Convention.
then you should read the opinion. Basically, the court acknowledges what those of us who actually read the Conventions have already concluded — people captured in a war zone are either designated POWs or civilians — that the designation “unlawful combatant” cannot be applied by executive fiat as a means of making an end-run around the protections afforded to these two categories of detainees. Under the conventions, detainees in both categories are entitled to a fair trial before their rights under the Conventions are curtailed. And under no circumstances are torture or any form of treatment inconsistent with human dignity permissible, regardless of whether the detainee is convicted or not.
In Hamdan’s case, there is virtually no evidence that he committed “war crimes” as defined in international law that would make him eligible for the designation “unlawful combatant”. Basically, he was bin Laden’s bodyguard/driver.
I’ve no doubt that Hamdan was capable of “terrorist” acts at the time of his capture. And, given the level of mistreatment he has doubtless been subject to as “bin Laden’s driver”, I’ve no doubt that he is even more convinced that the US is the Great Satan that must be eradicated.
But imagine if Hamdan had been afforded the basic protections provided under the Geneva Conventions for the last few years, rather than been subjected to beatings and torture? Imagine if Bushco had spent four years defying his expectations of America, rather than affirming them in the worst way possible. We might have someone on our hands right now ready to denouce bin Laden and al Qaeda, rather than someone whom we will have to find some way of keeping locked up for the rest of his life despite the fact that there is no evidence of criminal liability under international law.
KC
What’s funny to me is that I used to think I was conservative-to-moderate. Reading people like Malkin, etc., makes me a liberal now. Conservatism has really become about, to me, three things:
1. Focusing the power of government in one branch, namely the executive
3. Cutting taxes for rich people
3. And enforcing a moral code on others that many of the enforcers themselves don’t always follow
What’s worse to me is that in advocating these things, many conservatives no longer advocate, but admonish, reprimand, or scream “traitor” at anyone who either disagrees with or questions the veracity of pursuing them at all cost.
Take item #1. The Geneva Conventions are ratified treaties. In our constitution, whether one likes it or not, treaties are laws just as a statute is a law. For the president to go and ignore a treaty that has been ratified by the Senate, signed by the president, and actively adhered to by our institutions is not something that should be taken lightly. In fact, as the Supreme Court has made clear, it’s highly problematic and wrong. That people on the right could possibly scream about how “activist” or “liberal” the Supreme Court is for telling the president he must execute the law is beyond me.
I think conservatives need to start reading what Bruce Fein, an attorney in the Reagan justice department, had to say to Congress about presidential signing statements and think about the direction they’re taking this country. Too many conservatives have shifted their allegiance from the constitution, to a president seeking ever expanding power.
Kirk Spencer
I’m beginning to see a lot of reference to Andrew Jackson and his alleged dismissal of a supreme court decision. I think it’d be nice if people would read history and quit remembering what wasn’t so.
What Jackson said (paraphrased) was that the State of Georgia was ignoring the decision of the court, and he’d like to see the court enforce its decision. There are really good arguments that the US had no jurisdiction for intervention – that Jackson couldn’t have sent the military to act on behalf of the missionaries and Cherokee even if he’d wanted to. The common assumption that the US military acted in accordance to a President’s wishes and contrary to the decision of the supreme court is wrong.
The US military began the Trail of Tears movement later, and only after the Echota Treaty between it and a segment of the Cherokee nation. And the Trail of Tears had nothing to do (legally, not practically) with Worcester v Georgia.
Just an attempt to unmuddy some waters.
Kirk Spencer
Steve, yep, there’s a crime accused. The crime of being an illegal combatant. Specifically:
ellipses in the published opinion
Sorry, the challenge before the court was Hamdan’s of the legitimacy of the designated commissions to try him. Said commissions set up at the President’s directive to determine a status of “illegal combatant” in response to the decisions of Hamdi and Rasul.
parenthetical note: I’m summarizing and paraphrasing like mad in these. typos and ‘errors of technical points’ are a given.
Kirk
p.lukasiak
Well, I just checked out Andrew Cochran, and it looks like he’s a war profiteer with significant ties to the GOP…
That, plus the fact that he is co-founder of the Counterterrorism Blog with noted wingnut Bill Roggio seals the deal.
in other words, he appears to deserve John’s “go fuck yourself, twice” statement.
p.lukasiak
Steve, yep, there’s a crime accused. The crime of being an illegal combatant.
one problem…. “illegal combatant” is not a crime defined under international law. You have to actually commit a war crime, not just show up in a war zone without a uniform.
Kirk Spencer
p.lukasiak – a) that was sarcasm. b) literally you’re correct, but it’s the defacto charge by which the folk are being held. “we can do this because they’re illegal combatants.” See my post above about ‘technical points’.
Slide
but we are at WAR. Don’t you get it. Everything has changed since 911. EVERYTHING. Its dangerous dangerous dangerous now… bad guys… terrorists… jihadists.. Oh, my. We can’t worry about silly things like law.. or justice. We are in a struggle for our VERY SURVIVAL. don’t you traitors get it?
a very bad attempt at spoofing but I thought I’d give it a try.
Tsulagi
Activist Judges!! To Gitmo with the lot of them for retraining until they fully understand “yur either with us or agin us.” The Decider knows that is far more important than that obsolete liberal document that rambles on and on starting with “We the people of the United States…” Those judges need to get up to speed in the neo-U.S.
t. jasper parnell
Whose Bruce Fein?
Jane Mayer, _The Hidden Power: The Legal Mind Behind the White HOuse’s war on terror_,The New Yorker, 7/3/06, 46
From Greenwald
The Other Steve
What the fuck is wrong with people? The GOVERNMENT IS NOT YOUR PIGGY BANK!
My God, I’ve never realized how fucking corrupt the GOP Privitization programs really have been. They’re not about spending less money, they’re about diverting Tax dollars to campaign donors! Legalized cronyism.
Makes me fucking sick. I used to have sympathy for the argument of privitization.
Nutcutter
Read it and weep — Newsweek: The Myth of Al Qaeda
You’ve been had.
t. jasper parnell
Hey whaddya know, Greenwald provided a link for more fun from Fein.
t. jasper parnell
Yes, well it was Prom and I was drunk.
Pb
The Other Steve,
Just wait until you hear about their ‘faith-based initiatives’…
The Other Steve
Oh don’t get me started. If Christ were to come back today he’d be kicking the cadillac driving mega-church pastors in the ass, and throwing Pat Robertson and his buddies out of the temple.
John S.
I agree, and it’s an interesting point because it highlights a rift that is opening in the Republican party.
You see, I have a bumper sticker that says “Jesus votes Republican.” Now, while many a Dagon-the-fish-god sporting right-winger would honk lovingly in approval, I think that your less zealous Republicans would tend to disagree. And in fact, one of the lawyers in my building waited for me to walk into the lobby one morning to sternly tell me just that. “If Jesus were alive today, he would most certainly not be a Republican. He would be one of those long-haired liberal hippie types.”
So while the lawyer and I clearly agree with your take, good luck convincing the Christian Crusaders of that.
Richard 23
And after they die Satan will pinch off their heads and throw them into the pits of hell where the demons will use them as soccer balls.
Keith
I never saw the basis for outrage at Kerry’s assertion that the GWOT is reall more of a law enforcement problem than a military one. I think this particular case shows why when you begin to question what to do with detainees and look at duration of various powers of law/”justice” enforcement.
Punchy
It’s THIS kinda shit that drives me crazy. First of all, there’s NO intelligence you can gain from prisoners there for 5 years. None. Secondly, they’re not all dangerous. They let some go all the time.
I guess bullshit is all they know now. They’ve given up on facts and accuracy. Just bullshit from here on out.
Nutcutter
No, no, the idea is to wear them down ……….
Bas-O-Matic
All they did was bear arms against US soldiers on the field of battle. Similarly, most of the soldiers captured in WWII or WWI or Korea or Vietnam did not violate any American laws or commit any war crimes, and no one thought there was a problem interning them for the duration of hositlities. What’s the difference?
What really drives me crazy when people tlak about this stuff, and the Supremes are do this too (judicial activist horseshit aside, they are bending over backwards to accomodate the president here), is that everyone breezily talks about the cessation of hostilities in the war without thinking about the fact that the hostilities in which we were engaged in Afghanistan ended four years ago. The “war” on terror (or terrorism) will never end. Ever. It cannot. There will always be terrorists. Al Queda will exist in some for probably fro the duration of our lives if not longer. Even if we kill Bib Laden, there will be some religious extremists somewhere calling themselves Al Queda. That’s not to mention other terrorists who want to harm the US, foreign and domestic. The ability to hold detainees for the duration of hostilities was predicated on the fact that hostilities tend end at some point. When you talk about holding these people until the end of the war on terror, you are essentially saying that we are going to detain them for the rest of the rest of their lives.
Actually, the really tough moral and practical quandry is that many of the detainees in Gitmo DID NOT bear arms against the US in any way. Many were picked up on mere suspicion of association with the Taliban on the word of political rivals.
Yes. It is important to remember that the US didn’t do much in the way of ground fighting in Afganistan, primariliy providing air support for the Northern Alliance. It also needs to be remembered that the US was offering a bounty on supposed Taliban and “Al Qaeda fighters.” We frankly don’t know, and cannot know who most of these people are and whether they took up arms in Afghanistan.
Pooh
This is the point which really gets obscured – if you assume that they are in fact ‘all very bad people’ then the dissonance of the harsh treatment is less – once you add in the fact that many people are there with no showing (even a perfunctory statement of evidence) that they are actually the evildoers they are accused of being (and the fact that people are kept there for long after they are ‘cleared’) then the removal of all vestiges of due process becomes both legally and morally repugnant.
Long winded way of saying score one for the good guys with this one.
t. jasper parnell
“Guter, the navy JAG, said that, before long, he and other military experts began to wonder whether the reason they weren’t getting much useful intelligence from Guantanamo was that, as he puts it, ‘it wasn’t there.” Guter, who was in the Pentagon on September 11th, said, ‘I don’t have a sympathetic bone in my body for the terrorist. But I just wanted to make sure we were getting the right people — the real terrorists. And I wanted to make sure we were doing it in a wway consistent with our values.’
According to Guter the CIA was simultaneously raising similar concerns . . . after interviewing serveral dozen prisoners [the CIA discovered that] more than half the detaines . . . didn’t belong.” After which “a devastaing classified report . . . reached General JOhn Gordon, the deputy national-security adviser for combatting terrorism. After warning “Addigton and Gonzales that potentially innocent peole had been locked up inGuantanamo and wold be [there] indefinately,” which was “‘a violation of basic notions of American fairness,’according to Gordon and other officials, Addington responded “‘These are ‘enemy combatants.’ Please use that term. They’ve all been through a screening process. We don’t have anything to talk about.'”
According to at least one “Administration lawyer invovled” in an argument about Geneva Convention Article Five hearings the reason for Administrations refusal to consider them arose because “‘They just wanted to make a point on executive power — that the Preisdent can designate them _all_ enemy combatants if he wants to.” Mayer, “Hidden Power, 53-54.
Darrell
How is the situation so broken? Please elaborate. We have an unprecedented situation in which we’re in a war, but not against a nation-state, but against a brutal transnational organization which has organized itself militarily. These terrorist combatents don’t follow rules of war, they target and hide among civilians and don’t wear uniforms, but now the Supreme court tells us these terrorists fall under Geneval convention protections?
And as for playing politics, perhaps you can find it in yourself to forgive those on the right who’ve been demonized for decades, told that they are “racists” and “haters” for questioning divisive race based affirmative action programs (or for daring to suggest Bush won Florida in 2000).. and told how they’re “against the children” and want the “elderly to eat dog food” for questioning Dem social programs. Bush trying to use political pressure to push for something he appears to sincerely believe in? How revolting!
t. jasper parnell
Even leaving out the “appears” how does believe sincere or otherwise function as a justification for Governmental action?
If a President “sincerely believes” that the “right to keep and bear arms” means you get to hang on to your limbs is she right to act on it?
Darrell
Well, given that they’ve released a lot of them a dozen or two were re-captured on the battlefield trying to kill our soldiers or civilians, that tells us pretty clearly that they’re not being so strict in who they relase. The fact that so many on the left want to portray these vicious terrorists as innocents who happened to be in the ‘wrong place as the wrong time’ is despicable.
Darrell
What is comes down to is how reasonable are the administration’s beliefs. The President as CiC reasonably (in the opinion of many) felt the constitution said that he had primacy in war related matters dealing with enemies captured on the battlefield. This matter is complicated by the fact that the terrorists cannot be considered typical POWs by any reasonable definition.
Punchy
That’s complete bullshit and you know it. Ever stop to think that the ONLY REASON they’re fighting us after release is BECAUSE we locked them up and tortured them for 4+ years??
You show me an innocent, harmless, wrong-place/wrong-time Afghani baker or school teacher in 2001 and I’ll show you a pissed-off, vindictive, vengeful Gitmo release-ee in 2005 ready to “get even”.
Darrell
I want you lefties to run with this one, because it reveals something very basic about how f*cked up your belief system is. I want you to scream how the Gitmo detainees weren’t vicious head chopping murderers, but innocent bakers and school teachers who were driven to become terrorists.
t. jasper parnell
Darrell
Some evidence to the countrary:
Have you any?
t. jasper parnell
I’ll see your unnamed many and raise you noted moonbat Bruce Fein
Again any real evidence?
Darrell
Do you have a link/cite where you got that info?
Darrell
Article II of the US constitution.
Punchy
Here ya go, Charlie.
innocent
I’d link to about 5 more if it didn’t require “moderation”.
Even BUSH HIMSELF–your King–even acknowledged 4 innocent prisoners. You never care about the facts, though, b/c as a douchebag righty, facts doesn’t matter.
Pb
Again any real evidence?
jg
Show where in the constitution. What in Article II are you referring to? Actually what is it that other people think is in the constitution that you’re simply parrotting?
Nutcutter
Another thread queered by Darrell.
Thanks, John and Tim.
Pb
Punchy,
And don’t forget that ‘terrorist’ US soldier who was beaten to within an inch of his life at Gitmo…
Andrew
Darrell, don’t you have to put on your assless dog costume and go over to Jeff Goldstein’s house?
t. jasper parnell
Can you read?
t. jasper parnell
To repeat my ownself once again:
Jane Mayer, The Hidden Power: The Legal Mind Behind the White HOuse’s war on terror,The New Yorker, 7/3/06, 46
I will, say, however that the demonized conservatives, who have only Ronnie BI and BII to protect them, that Darrell is brave. What with his hemispherectomy, or possibly acephalous handicap
Ancient Purple
I am so fucking sick and tired of these false dichotomies. I reject that I have to choose between my safety and my civil liberties. I can have both, but that piece of shit in the White House and his cronies are too damn lazy to follow the law.
I will tell you exactly who I support: Adams, Jefferson, Franklin, Hancock and the other signers of the DoI. They knew full well that penning their name to that document meant they could be immediately hanged for treason (they were colonists and weren’t afforded all the rights of being Englishmen). They did it anyway because the hope of freedom was more important than their own lives.
Now, we have cowards like Malkin and Darrell and MacBuckets who’s main concern is whether to get rubber sheets or to just by a new mattress because of the colossal amounts of urine they leak everytime they terror level gets raised to orange.
Terrorists are disgusting scum and need to be eradicated.
I wish the same fate for cowards who now stain their pants because they can’t reach their back well enough to paint a big, fat yellow stripe down it.
t. jasper parnell
Come, come, Darrell (didn’t fans of the opposing team chant Daaaarrrreeeellll when the drugged loon was in town? Couldn’t we begin the tradition all over again. Isn’t it possible that Darrell is DAAAARRRRREELLLL, they are both drug adled.) provides the perfect testing ground for the validity of an argument. The less he understands it the better it must be.
t. jasper parnell
For me, in any event, what was interesting about the Mayer argument is the extent to which Chaney and Addington were dedicated to the idea of expanding presidential power, particular in regards to the Presidents unlimted power over foreign affairs. Not only do they not understand the Constitution, Mayer’s reports lots of Bush’s adivsors looking askance at Addington’s interpretation, but they do not understaned the reasons why, in the wake of Nixon’s disgraceful misuse of state power, limits are necessary to avoid crapping all over democracy. Why, one wishes to know, are their men and women who consider themselves American who cannot abide by the basic features of its democratic system?
The Other Steve
So, you know there’s all kinds of other news out there.
they found the laptop with the Vet data.
The SCOTUS also ruled that mexicans who were arrested and were not told they had a right ot talk to their embassy couldn’t have their cases simply dismissed.
I mean, that last one, it’s actually something that I’m not in total disagreement with the justices on. I don’t think letting criminals go entirely just because of some procedural screwup is a great idea. Ought to be a different solution.
Anyway… but back to Darrell’s daily wingnut whackery.
The Other Steve
I don’t have to convince the Christian Crusaders.
What we need to do is convince the other 100 million or so people who right now listen to the Christian Crusaders because nobody else is talking.
t. jasper parnell
To which we all say hurray. But consider had not the godless press trumpeted the loss it would all have been eaiser. Somehow or another. Loose lips and ships, or something.
In other news. Everyone invovled in the world’s greatest bicycle race is, so it would seem, on performance enhancing drugs. Clearly no one is thinking of the children.
QuickRob
This decision isn’t that bad, is it?
Doesn’t it allow the government to hold them indefinitely as opposed to trying them in civil courts?
And the Supreme Court dissenters made a very good case that the SCOTUS should never have been ruling on this in the first place, and in fact congress has good reason to be angry about this since they are being overruled by the SCOTUS in a manner than flouts ALL precendent in this type of situation.
Bush doesn’t win or lose, in this decision. It’s very up-in-the-air still.
t. jasper parnell
Re the Religious. Wheat and tares has always been the answer
Mt 13:24
¶ Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Mt 13:25
But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
Mt 13:26
But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
Mt 13:27
So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Mt 13:28
He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mt 13:29
But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Mt 13:30
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Mt 13:36
Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
Mt 13:37
He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Mt 13:38
The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mt 13:39
The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mt 13:40
As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mt 13:41
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mt 13:42
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Want to know who is right? Christ suggests we wait until a hhigher and less subjective authority decides.
Krista
Reminds me of a great movie.
Hyperion
some fellow named Ron Paul (R-Texas) is on cspan now saying amazing things….making sense!
who is this guy? he is blowing my mind!
t. jasper parnell
Krista,
Have you seen it? It sounds fantasmical
Hyperion
ok…maybe there *is* hope.
now Rep Walter Jones (R-NC) is on CSPAN. i have seen him recently speaking out. both he and Paul are obviously pissed about the war and the folks who got us into it.
i note that Paul is a libertarian who once ran for president. his speech took my breath away.
maybe other non-koolaid drinking repubs can be influenced by these two fellows.
Krista
I’ve only seen bits of it, when they show it on IFC (Independent Film Channel — don’t know if you guys get that.) The ending is beyond classic. It’s so wrong, that it’s right.
Bruce Moomaw
My own reaction to Cochran’s threat is to steal El Supremo’s line on that aircraft carrier: “Bring it on.”
I flatly refuse to believe that the American people (especially given their current stratospheric distrust of Bush’s honesty) will fall for this crap — especially when the Republicans try to portray Justice Kennedy as a dangerous pinko-traitor. If they do, I am officially going to give up on human civilization.
As for Cochran’s predictions that “The Administration and its allies will release plenty of information on the terrorist acts committed by the detainees for which they were detained [and they] will also release information about those terrorist acts committed by Gitmo prisoners after they were released”: fine. Let’s see how much they actually do have on these guys, as opposed to their murky mutterings up to now about how much they have on them that They Just Can’t Tell Us About. Especially given the estimates by virtually all impartial observers that Gitmo is riddled with utterly innocent inmates, thanks to Rumsfeld’s incompetence.
Right now, where the Administration is concerned, we’re at the stage where Toto has already pulled down the drapes but the Wizard is still yelling “Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!” That part, you’ll recall, didn’t last very long. (The main difference is that the Wizard claimed to at least be “a very good man”, a claim Bush can’t possibly make with a straight face.)
t. jasper parnell
Krista,
I would get it if I got cable, which I don’t so I can’t but if could I would, if you see what I mean.
Krista
But of course. I wonder if you can get it on DVD somewhere. It’s pretty good for a laugh, particularly if one has been pursuing studies in alternative agriculture…
Richard 23
Sad that Ron Paul speaking sensibly is amazing, but you are correct about him. Dr Paul is a voice of reason in a sea of asshats.
t. jasper parnell
Well aftershocks of alternative agriculture and/or chemistry
Isn’t Rue Paul?
t. jasper parnell
A final thought:
Where are the strident presidential supporters on this the day of all days when the unitary presidency has been weighed and found wanting? Can it be that the waters of monarchy haven risen so rapidly have receeded so preciptiously?
DAARREELL?
The Other Steve
Haven’t you heard? Bin Laden released a new audio tape.
Darrell and Mac Buckets are hiding in their basement soiling their pants.
Nutcutter
They share a basement? They’re gay?
Nutcutter
Not that there’s anything wrong with that.
Perry Como
He’s a Republican in name, but a libertarian by words and actions. He’s the one congresscritter I don’t loathe.
Perry Como
He’s a Republican in name, but a libertarian by words and actions. He’s the one congresscritter I don’t loathe.
Andrew
No nuts, it they were gay, they would be hiding in the closet. “Basement” implies that they are pederasts.
Nutcutter
Oh dear.
GOP4Me
Hard to believe you moonbats are actually more fun to read than the commentary on my own blog. Some of you, like Nutcutter, have turned that place into a sewer. But for the rest of you, I’d like to thank you for an entertaining thread.
Nutcutter
With my six or eight posts in the last week? My, what a robust blog you must have going over there.
Fuck off, you crazy butthead.
Richard Bottoms
No, it’s not.
Bearing arms against us on the battle field may make you an enemy, but it’s not a war crime. There are Laws of Land Warfare because, well wars do happen.
Casey
wow, Nutcutter, i’m totally agree with your sentensions.
good, good =)
searp
The administration and its supporters have been dishonest on many levels, but the notion that all 400+ people held at Guantanamo are vicious terrorists is possibly the worst, and most prejudicial to real justice.
The real vicious terrorists are held secretly, which we know courtesy of the Washington Post.
The fact that so few of those held at Guantanamo have been charged with anything at all speaks volumes, as does the fact that Hamdan was charged with conspiracy as opposed to a substantive act. Hamdan was a driver and bodyguard, for Christ’s sake, not a terrorist kingpin.
The propaganda about being picked up on the field of battle, even that isn’t true. Some prisoners came from Bosnia.
I personally want an honest accounting. The bad guys who actually have committed crimes, charge them, try them, and convict them. The others? Well, the others are a stain on our honor, simple as that. It is not against the law to live in Afghanistan and hate the United States. If we rounded up everyone in that category, we’d need all of Cuba, not just Guantanamo. If we extended that theory to Iraq, we’d need a medium sized country.
Guantanamo is an abomination precisely because there was no rigorous sorting process, and it simply isn’t believable to claim otherwise.
Honesty, believe it or not, is the best policy. The patent dishonesty of the Guantanamo defenders is un-American and un-patriotic.
p.lukasiak
How to hold the bad guys indefinitely:
1) forget the idea that the “War on Terror” is a literal war, and start treating al Qaeda as an international criminal organization.
2) when you capture someone like Hamdan, interrogate him as a suspect in a criminal conspiracy. Compel his testimony regarding through “use immunity” (i.e. what he testifies to cannot be used against him). When he doesn’t testify, hold him in contempt of court — when a grand jury runs out of time, convene a new grand jury.
Lather rinse repeat.
ALternately, charge and convict him for obstruction of justice, then throw him into the Federal prison system. He won’t survive two weeks.
Slide.
The cowardly bedwetters on the right like to call those that they disagree with, traitors and claim that we just don’t “get it”. I love it. Keep it up. Its backfiring bigtime and they don’t have a clue. They are as misguided in this political tactic as they were when they embraced the Schiavo case. How’d that work out for ya? lol
And who is the latest arightwing nutjob rmchair general that thinks he knows more than those that served? Clarence “pubic hair” Thomas the moronic Supreme Court justice who is too stupid to EVER ask a question at a Supreme Court hearing and who had the audacity to question Justice Steven’s “familiarities with war” Pubic Hair was referring to Stevens when he said,“unfamiliarity with the realities of warfare”.
Funny thing though, Justice Stevens is a Bronze Star receipient having fought in the Navy during WWII. Justice Pubic Hair? Chickenhawk, just like 99% of this administration.
Keep it up my right wingnuts, I love that the cowardly bedwetters continue to think that questioning the patriotism of war vets is a winner for them when they all managed to avoid serving their nation. I love it.
Lee
I’m going to borrow that one. It is great.
chopper
Hard to believe you moonbats are actually more fun to read than the commentary on my own blog
watching paint dry is more fun than reading the commentary on your blog, GOP.
Tim F.
Dammit Searp, embed your links. Now I have to go sober up John so that we can get our margins back.
searp
Tim: my bad, I am not very proficient. I have now figured it out:
This link points out some facts:
(1) The president will not release murderers and terrorists
(2) 310 people have been released from Guantanamo, and another 100 will be released shortly
(3) Ten (10) people have been charged.
This says to me that there were many people at Guantanamo who were not murderers and were not terrorists.
searp
oops, haven’t quite figured it out
Cyrus
(Intoned in a menacing, action-movie star voice): I’m everywhere.
I saw it with some friends at an alternate movie night in college, hosted by the director. Good stuff. You know it’s a classic if the director’s immediate family (his mother, in this case) is in it. It worked for “Return of the King,” didn’t it?
Pb
Slide.,
Sadly, pathetic hypocritical smears like that are winners with their base–and since they’ve already lost the rest of America, those nuts are all they have left. Apparently they think this obligates them to dig the hole deeper (instead of making the pie higher or something).
Slide.
Pb
I agree completely. They have to get their base motivated enough to want to vote. The Dubai port deal didn’t help. The immigration debate doesn’t help. Harriet Meiers idiocy set them back so they are worried that the chromosome challenged right wing wacko base of theirs might not show up in November. So what are they to do? Attack the Jew York Times. (not the WSJ which published the same story at the same time). Alas the drawback to their strategy is that it turns off everyone who’s favorite reading material doesn’t require crayons.
Keep it up nut jobs on the right. Yeah.. lets have more or your right wingers on Hardball saying that the editor of the NY Times should be sent to the gas chamber… yeah… you tell em…lol
Slide.
With us or with them? Seems like bin Laden WANTED Bush to win re-election:
I always said that bin Laden should have a photo of Bush in his cave because no one else in the world has helped his organization more than the Decider.
GOP4Me
Usually, that’s only the case if the paint is on a Michaelangelo or a Monet or a Renoir. But lately, you’re right, even watching paint dry on your average bedroom ceiling is more fun than reading those comments.
Tax Analyst
Lee, Did you want to borrow the remark or the Olive Branch? I’d be happy to loan you either (or both), but the Olive Branch would require Shipping. Feel free to use the Remark, though…
Tsulagi
Yep, bin Laden just might affectionately have a pinup poster of Bush adorning his walls. Probably gives it a little pat for luck.
Also, astute neocon Richard Perle finally may be proven partially correct regarding one of his predictions for the ME, that statues of Bush will sprout. But not in Iraq. In Iran where they will mark the invasion of Iraq a national holiday: Thank Allah for the Retard Day. To celebrate and honor TARD, the devout will pretend to choke on pretzels while falling off bicycles.
Bruce Moomaw
Two detailed and deadly notes on the probable high number of innocents in Gitmo — and how in hell they got there — can be found among Kevin Drum’s Feb. 15 and 17 entries (“Digging into Guantanamo” and “The Worst of the Worst”.) He has two more good ones out today. Wht a charming — and competent! — crew we have running the country at the moment.
I won’t provide the links here because I keep losing the notes that helpful people keep giving me on how to provide them without blowing John’s site to kingdom come.
Mr Furious
ROTFLMAO! Funniest thing anyone’s posted ’round here in a while.
Bruce Moomaw
Tsulagi has just won my official “Anti-Bush Snark of the Day” award.
Stuart Eugene Thiel
[whether it’s true or not].
Willie Horton lives!
Stuart Eugene Thiel
Darrell said:
This is pretty funny. Not even the trolls believe Bush any more.
Wayne Wasserman
This is my first visit here, following a link over at DailyKos, which I frequent: “A principled conservative blogger speaks out against the administration power grab in the name of “national security.” John Cole writes…”
While I value the many Dem/liberal sites I frequent,it would be nice to find a place to read what serious, fair-minded conservatives think. I’ve enjoyed what I’ve read above. Think I’ll stop by from time to time. Thanks.
Krista
We have serious, fair-minded conservatives here?
Dave Hensley
What Wayne said. Great discussion; the signal to noise is (almost) 100%. I guess I now know: my political affiliation is PORN, though (in gentler, more civilized times) I would probably have been an Eisenhower Republican. Now I’m apparently a traitor, moonbat, communist, some sort of sexual deviant, and I aid and abet terrorists because I’m not willing to shitcan the Constitution because America was attacked by 19 whackjob Saudis armed with box cutters.
Is anyone else finding the thing that makes their veins bulge the most is the apparent assumption that we’re so stupid that we’re supposed to be taken in by the vapid political theater within the beltway? I mean there’s no attempt at subtlety, no artistry, just the same tawdry issues trotted out yet again, presented with some tired, warmed-over outrage and histrionics, and we’re supposed to fall back in line.
Geez, sorry about the rant–I’m just overcome at seeing some old-fashioned political discourse occuring. Thanks!
George Arndt
Not so long ago, Colorado professor Ward Churchill denounced the victims of 9/11 as “little Eichmanns”. For such outrageous remarks he was rightfully fired.
Yet, compare this to the statements made by Ann Coultur and the recent writings of Malkin, ect. They are no less offensive, yet they are everywhere in the media and are best selling authors. So much for left wing media!