This may be one of the fuzziest write-ups I have ever read:
After an emotional debate fraught with symbolism, the Senate yesterday voted to make English the “national language” of the United States, declaring that no one has a right to federal communications or services in a language other than English except for those already guaranteed by law.
The measure, approved 63 to 34, directs the government to “preserve and enhance” the role of English, without altering current laws that require some government documents and services be provided in other languages. Opponents, however, said it could negate executive orders, regulations, civil service guidances and other multilingual ordinances not officially sanctioned by acts of Congress.
Exactly what is meant by “no one has a right to federal communications or services ?” Does that mean that the federal government is not legally mandated to provide services in any language other than English?
And getting to the meat of the law, if that is the case, was there ever a time where the government was mandated to provide services in a language other than English? I was under the impression that multiple languages were provided in regions where it was a necessity and just made sense(Miami, etc.), but I was unaware that we were legally obligated.
At any rate, the 2006 election agenda-setting continues on. Immigrants = the new gay.
Mr Furious
Ah, I just emailed you about this, John.
Let’s see if I can kick off another “furious” thread that results in 200 comments telling me I’m a ninny…
This is but a portion of my longer post at my place:
Marcus Wellby
To parse in English: We need to throw the “Larry the Cable Guy” wing of the Republican party another meaningless bone.
Now let’s get on to the real business of state — rude bumper stickers and long lines at Applebees.
ppGaz
I agree with Furious. I think that the GOP wedge-noise machine has become a caricature of itself, and may backfire this year. Some morons at the base will respond to this pandering crap, but I think more people will be turned off by it.
What the GOP doesn’t get …. yet … is that people have lost trust in the W-Brand and it is never coming back. They think that this is just a temporary “sour” mood. It’s not. GWB is the new Nixon in American politics.
Mr Furious
Don’t worry, this isn’t mere “Republicans did it so it’s bad”, I have a bigger problem with the enabler Democrats…
Can we just hit “reset” and start Washington over again? At this point I’d be happier with a Congress that looked like the motley denizens of this blog…
Marcus Wellby
Republicans had made headway with the Latino base under Bush, and he had made appeals to that bloc with his nominees.
And you can kiss those South Florida Cuban dollars goodbye.
Mr Furious
Fine. that is not a growth potential for them. Those morons were locked up and those votes are all but cast.
Mr Furious
I think this can be laid at the feet of desperate Republicans in Congress, rather than Rove and the central office.
srv
I think they need to have Congressional seances with Terry Schaivo. I thought they’d come up with legislation mandating fire-proof flags.
Steve
I think the substantive goal would be to prevent lawsuits that claim, let’s say, I’m being denied equal protection because the forms at the DMV aren’t in my language. Except, of course, if you actually had a constitutional right to have forms printed in your language, you couldn’t override that with a law anyway.
So this bill really says two things:
(1) you aren’t allowed to claim that the law requires something to be done in a language other than English, but
(2) if an existing law says that things should be done in a language other than English, that’s fine!
Very, very bizarre. Of course it’s just pandering, but if you pander with a flag-burning amendment, at least everyone understands that the end result will be to ban the burning of the flag! I’m not sure anyone gets what the end result of this bill is.
And it’s worth noting that the watered-down Dem version, which simply says English is our “common, unifying language,” also passed! You might say “but Steve, how can you water down a bill that already does nothing,” to which I reply: “I have no idea, but it sounds like a very Democratic thing to do!”
Tim
I could be mistaken, but I believe there was a Supreme Court decision that mandated that in areas where a significant number of non-English voters are present, ballots need to be provided in that language in order allow non-English speaking citizens to fully understand who/what they are voting on. I would guess other services done in non-English kind of flowed from this.
However, if this is correct, it would seem that this bill would be unconstitutional as there could possibly be an influx in future of new immigrants/citizens that are currently relatively low in the US (from where, who knows?? Indonesia??) and so would necessitate ballots in their native language if they don’t speak English.
Tim
Whoops. Sorry. Meant ‘non-English speaking voters’
Mr Furious
[sigh…] When this shit pops up on the agenda for the day, I just wish the Dems would all hit their “Nay” lights, and go home for the day. Why bother counter-proposing to this crap?
How about: “If we are going to be wasting the country’s time an this garbage today, the Democrats will adjourn to another chamber to actully get some work done.”
Mr Furious
This must be one of those “ideas” the Republicans are always saying the Dems can’t come up with.
searp
This blather about English is meaningless at every level. Just goes to show that the Republicans know that their “base” can get excited by absolutely meaningless “activity”. Cannot wait to see how our immigrant communities react to this latest crudescence from the nativist know-nothings.
Mr Furious
I guess this legislation locks up John Gibson’s vote. More from FOX (Focus On Xenophobia) here.
Gotta get some work done. I’ll be back.
McNulty
I think this is shameless election year pandering just like everyone else, but i don’t necessarily agree that it’s only gonna appeal to rabid right-wingers.
Just like anti-gay marriage legislation passed in states won by Kerry as well as Bush, this will resonate with people other than some dumb hicks in red states.
Whenever there is a Day Without an Immigrant rally in Philly, there’s always a much smaller counter-protest somewhere nearby, and it’s not uncommon to see some of the counter-protesters wearing shirts that say things like “Ironworkers for Kerry/Edwards” or “Teamsters for Rendell”.
I don’t want this to turn into some debate about which party has more xenophobes or racists, but rather that it’s not as limited in it’s appeal as you might think.
DougJ
Let them piss off the Mexican-Americans. Alientating the fastest-growing block of voters in the country is always good politics.
I think it is unlikely that Mexican-Americans will vote like African-Americans (90% Dem) or even Jewish Americnas (80% Dem), but I think that if the Republicans aren’t careful, Mexican-Americans could end up like Irish-Americans politically. And that would be a disaster for the Republicans.
CT Yankee
Well I take great pride in knowing there is a republican legislator in Alabama who wants sex toys to be illegal in that state. It will be a *felony* to sell sex toys in that state. Guess there is not much crime down there for the cops to deal with.
Tom
A sugar pill to take with your amnesty.
The Other Steve
Why even bother to vote Nay? This type of bill is a perfect excuse to abstain and go to the pub across the street and talk about something important, like whose going to win the Stanley Cup.
McNulty
They’ll get my blow-up doll when they pry it from cold, dead (or warm, sticky) hands.
Paul Wartenberg
Que?
SeesThroughIt
Totally true, but there’s still mileage to be had from pillorying the old gay: gays. See: the sure-to-be-defeated “Dudes! Tryin’ to get married! Them boys ain’t right!” bill.
Also, as a copy editor, I know firsthand the tragic disrepair the English language has fallen into in this country. If we’re going to handle the oh-so-pressing issue of making English the official language, shouldn’t we actually, you know, learn it first?
The Other Steve
Frankly, if this is Frist’s summer Agenda… He’s just setting himself up for the Democrats to sweep in November.
I saw yesterday that Bush’s approval rating on the handling of gas prices is 16%. You’d think they’d want to try to pander to that. Even if they can’t do something, at least look like they are doing something.
Although considering the best idea the Republicans can come up with is a tax cut, or a $100 handout. I guess I don’t blame them for avoiding the issue.
Gold Star for Robot Boy
No, it’s: Immigrants = the new Middle Eastern Muslims.
Because the brown people over there are putting up a bigger fight than expected, we’re gonna fight the brown people over here – especially the ones all worn out from hiking across the desert.
(Darrell comes along to accuse me of race-baiting in three… two… one…)
The Other Steve
Which version of English are we going to use?
Gold Star for Robot Boy
Actually, the best theory I’ve heard is the
knuckle-breathing mouth-draggersknuckle-dragging mouth-breathers of the GOP are using immigration as their graceful way of getting off the Bush bus (or, throwing him under the bus). Even they realize the prez is an incompetent ninny.Gold Star for Robot Boy
What a dumb question. The version spoken by Jesus Christ, duh!
Mr Furious
LOL!
Rusty Shackleford
It’s a great thing that the Iraq war is over, Afghanistan is as secure as can be, Osama Bin Laden has been caught, the budget has been balanced, our trade deficit erased, New Orleans and the gulf coast rebuilt, U.S. ethnic relations are at an all time high, and every citizen is confident that their generation will enjoy a higher standard of living than the one that preceded it so we can persecute gays, alienate hispanics and latinos and figure out ways to make the non-issue of gun control a mouth-breathing ‘to hell with everything else going on in the world’ issue.
Darrell
Of course he’s insinuating that those who support the amendment are racist. Democrat scumbag race-baiting 101.
Anyone who supports this amemendment is ‘looking for someone to hate’, right?
The Other Steve
I’m not one to really like it when people accuse others of racism. But to be fair. Is there another reason?
It certainly isn’t about promoting national unity.
The Other Steve
But of cours! Dost thou thinkest I’m a fool?
Punchy
What’s this do to services the gov’t offered in Braille? Is Braille considered a language?
Otto Man
I saw a viewer email segment on CNN earlier. One of the complainers said “We shouldn’t have to learn another language to talk with people from foreign countries.”
So we’re going to require English everywhere now?
Darrell
The hell it’s not. All one has to do is look North to see what 2 national languages has done for Canadian ‘unity’.
Gold Star for Robot Boy
Darrell, will you ever acknowledge that many on the anti-immigration side are just plain racists? You accuse us of baiting, but I say we’re just pointing out an inconvenient truth.
Otto Man
I can’t wait for the next bill requiring “nuclear” to be pronounced “nucular.”
Darrell
No, the only possible reason could be that they are looking for brown people to hate.
The Other Steve
You know, when I was at the Citizenship swearing in ceremony last week, they played this cheesy video clip with that song by Lee Greenwood “Proud to be An American”. This to me showed just how out of touch this Republican administration is with immigrants.
If they had really wanted to connect they would have used “America” by Neil Diamond.
Far,
We’ve been traveling far
Without a home
But not without a star
Free,
Only want to be free
We huddle close
Hang on to a dream
On the boats and on the planes
They’re coming to America
Never looking back again,
They’re coming to America
Home
Don’t it seem so far away
Oh, we’re traveling light today
In the eye of the storm
In the eye of the storm
Home
To a new and a shiny place
Make our bed and we’ll say our grace
Freedom’s light burning warm
Freedom’s light burning warm
Everywhere around the world
They’re coming to America
Ev’ry time that flag’s unfurled
They’re coming to America
Got a dream to take them there
They’re coming to America
Got a dream they’ve come to share
They’re coming to America
They’re coming to America
They’re coming to America
They’re coming to America
They’re coming to America
Today, Today,
Today, Today, Today
My country ’tis of thee (today)
Sweet land of liberty (today)
Of thee I sing (today)
Of thee I sing
Today, Today, Today
Today, today, today……
Darrell
Just as there are racists on the pro-abortion side which want to minimize the amount of procreation of “those” dark skinned people.
That some on either side may be motivated by race, does not take away from the legitimacy of the point.. but you and your side are the ones most often flinging the race card, and I think most americans are sick of it
Otto Man
Darrell, how do you explain posts like this snippet from Fox News? Can you not see the racism in a claim that the brown people are having more babies than whites, and that’s a reason to panic?
SeesThroughIt
POTD
Otto Man
Care to offer any proof of that Darrell? Anything at all?
John S.
Liberal misrepresentation.
He can see no further then the end of his own nose.
Next pointless attempt to reason with the unreasonable…
Darrell
Tell us Steve, which passage of that song illustrates, in your opinion, that Repubs are “out of touch” with immigrants coming here?
Sounds like the dream of most immigrants, wouldn’t you agree?
ppGaz
Darrell only hates brown people if they’re gay.
Pooh
It’s a good theory. Though I sort of thought the same thing about the Port fiasco.
ppGaz
Only if you are are Hispanic and/or gay.
Braille should be removed from all public elevators, since it sends the wrong message … that blindness is somehow “okay.”
The Other Steve
Sometime you should look up the history of Stalin’s attempt to unify Russia under one language. Or maybe talk to the Kurds in northern Iraq and eastern Turkey. I think China tried this too.
Language unity can only flow from a free market. That is, an economic incentive to unify towards one language, which always occurs anyway. Any attempt to force it will be regarded as dictatorial by the people.
Otto Man
That song is awful on so many levels:
Leaving aside the poor grammar — what antecedent does the “where” refer to? — that’s a pretty low threshold for patriotism.
McNulty
Otto,
The person in the email you reference didn’t articulate their point very clearly, but i think you know what they mean.
As i said above, i think a lot of this is shameless pandering, and i don’t expect everyone to be able to speak english on their first day, or year for that matter, in this country, and i support certain measures that enable someone to gradually make a comfortable transition here, but the fact of the matter is, there ARE some people who come here who expect to be able to speak their native language their entire lives.
Frankly, if they wanna get above dishwashing or cutting lawns, they’re gonna have to learn english and it doesn’t hurt to do certain things to nudge them along.
tzs
I trust then all these “English-first” people will have no trouble at all with all Chinese imports having only Chinese explanations, all meetings outside the US being held only in the language of wherever the meeting is, and for Japan, China, and Korea to remove all traces of bilingualism from road signs and train stations.
I think a lot of these idiots actually don’t believe that there’s anything outside the U.S.
Some Other Brian Guy
Actually we would prefer to have all the dark skinned people sterilized so that they can’t reproduce. It’s more effective than abortions, because with that program some baby can always slip through the cracks.
John S.
Perhaps because the song has NOTHING to do with immigration whatsoever, unlike Neil Diamond’s tune:
Or perhaps you could point out the part that touches on the life of an immigrant to the United States, Darrell?
Darrell
That comment from a newscaster is far less offensive than the comments of this Democrat running for office:
Oh my…
Otto Man
Sure. I just thought it was amusing.
Fair enough, but we’ve never had an English requirement for citizenship before, not even during the heyday of immigration at the turn of the last century. Requiring an English-only approach could lead to huge problems down the line — imagine trying to evacuate a city like L.A. with nothing but English instructions.
Some Other Brian Guy
Yes, as a proud member of the pro-abortion movement, we would like to see state mandated abortions for everybody!
Actually, it’d just be much easier if you all didn’t reproduce. So we’re also actively working to get people elected who support a constituational amendment that mandates gay marriage.
Trust us, in the end you’ll all be happier. With this new mandate, not only won’t you have to deal with children, you are guaranteed that your spouse shares your same interest in power tools or shoes.
Steve
With demographics like those, maybe they should be called African-anti-Americans.
Rusty Shackleford
Darrell is a dishonest git:
“Larry Darby, the founder of the Atheist Law Center, made an abortive bid for the AG job as a Libertarian in 2002, but only recently have his views on race and the Holocaust come to light.”
Sounds like a southern Democrat that’s been a coma for 60 years and wasn’t aware that the Republican Party represents his thoughts.
Darrell
False analogy, as Stalin was trying to force a unifying language on lands they had forcibly invaded which had never before spoken Russian.
But thanks for playing Steve!
Faux News
I thought Darrell was a huge fan of Jeff (Dom Top) Gannon?
The Other Steve
Don’t be confused. There actually is such a requirement already.
This biull isn’t about that. It’s about nothing.
Otto Man
Yes, Darrell, a statement from an unknown Alabama candidate for AG who was a Libertarian as late as 2002 really reveals the racism at the core of the Democratic Party. By your logic, David Duke — who actually won the Republican nomination for governor of Louisiana — is thereby representative of the entire GOP. Brilliant as always.
You still haven’t offered any evidence of your claim that pro-choice people want to reduce the number of non-white babies, Darrell. We’re all waiting.
Otto Man
Yeah, Americans trying to enforce the English language on lands they forcibly invaded and had never before spoken English — that’s exactly the opposite here.
Darrell
There you go.. that’s right. All those Repubs just racist hicks, the ‘brown’ people their latest target to hate.
Keep on pushing that narrative jackasses, because I know that’s how you really think
demimondian
Actually, the GOP (Grand Opposition Party) wants to make “beige the new black”. The want three classes of Learned Elders: Fags, Unbelievers, and Dun-colored people. (Good thing, too. That way, we’ll all be able to abbreviate this as “more GOP FUD” and be telling the truth.)
Gold Star for Robot Boy
Pro-choice, yet extremist anti-immigrants? That Venn diagram can’t contain but barest slice of the population.
Darrell
Otto, you and your fellow whackjobs look to have a real winning issue there. I want you and fellow travelers to scream your asses off about how since evil Europeans did bad to Indians hundreds of years ago, that we have no right now to claim English as our national language now.
Run with it. I can’t hear you!
Gold Star for Robot Boy
Bill or bull? Either way, you’re right.
Otto Man
Yes, you’re great at reading minds, Darrell.
Still waiting for your proof that pro-choice people are in favor of abortion because they want a reduction in nonwhite births. What are you waiting for? It should be easy to find a statement on this from NARAL or Planned Parenthood. Go for it.
Punchy
Nicely stated. And that, y’all, is the crux of the xenophobia endemic to the Republican party. They neither care about nor want to care about anything outside of the U.S…You think Billy Joe Moonshine in rural Tennessee has even seen the ocean, let alone Europe?
What chaos this world would become if all countries did this. Can you imagine a U.S. businessman in Europe needing to know 5-10 languages to sell his wares? Gov’t employees in Asia forced to be able read Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc.? Talk about a complete disaster…
Otto Man
That’s not my argument at all. I just thought it was funny that your grasp of American history is about as solid as your grip on reality.
Now go get us some evidence for your claims about the pro-choice movement. If you don’t, we’ll all just have to assume you’re full of shit. Well, more so.
Darrell
But I thought Republicans were the party of the rich, and the rich, by and large, have travelled much more extensively than the poor and middle classes.
Or are Repubs now the party of the southern working man? Can’t you leftwingnuts get your stereotypes straight?
Darrell
I’m just reading what you and your fellow leftist extremists are writing.. right here on this very thread. No mind reading required. No tengo que ser adivino de pensamientos
Otto Man
Who exactly? It’s right here on the thread, Darrell. Go ahead and point it out.
(Voices in your head don’t count.)
McNulty
If this passes, does that mean i can finally get rid of that annoying ~ on my keyboard?
Otto Man
I want to see a bill to get rid of Arabic numerals. They’re part of the Islamocootie Conspiracy, people!
Gold Star for Robot Boy
And the zero!
McNulty
And does this mean that next year it will just be Super Bowl 41, instead of Super Bowl XLI?
Darrell
PoTD
Otto Man
No, the Republicans are proposing renaming it Super Bowl George H.W. Bush.
Mr Furious
Venn diagram? Word of the day.
You’re earning your gold stars today, Robot Boy.
After yesterday’s prolonged effort, and now the strong contrarian stance on something as stupid as this, is all the proof I need that Darrell is indeed a fucking joke.
Otto Man
Still waiting, Sen. Cornyn.
Mr Furious
No problem at all. Anybody that can’t understand English isn’t worth saving…
Darrell
Translation – I’m unable to put forth a coherent argument, so I’ll call Darrell names since he makes me feel so stupid
The Other Steve
The main example I was thinking of was the banning of the Ukrainian culture. The culture of Rus originated in what we now called Ukraine, but 1000 years ago was called Kievian Rus. In the 15th century, the region was united with Muscovy into what became the start of the Russian Empire by Ivan the Great.
I’m not sure if you could say it was forcibly invaded, so much as reunified under one ruler. It’s the whole Kievian Rus historic connection which pisses off Russians today regarding Ukrainian independence. It would be kind of like England deciding they wanted to be separate from the British Empire.
But Ukraine wasn’t one fixed culture, and the Russificiation of the Czars as well as Stalin caused a lot of damage and anger.
So thanks for playing, Darrell.
Pb
Darrell,
Translation ā Iām unable to put forth a coherent argument, so Iāll make up some inane crap and call it a ‘translation’ since I’m so stupid
…wait a minute…
canuckistani
You are the wind beneath my wings.
The song should have an asterisk at this point, with a sotto voce “unless I’m unilaterally declared an enemy combatant and disappear to an offshore prison”.
Mr Furious
I can’t wait! I think it’s going to be the New England Reagans versus the Carolina Reagans!
McNulty
You’ll never have to evacuate LA, because Jack Bauer always finds the nuke or virus before that becomes necessary.
ppGaz
How else to explain you, over a period of a year, pimping the false notion that carpenters in Houston are suffering “depressed” wages due to illegal brown immigrants? Why else cherry pick an unrelated and misleading statistic to support the stupid claim? Why focus on carpenters, and not plumbers? Electricians? Fishmongers? Auto mechanics? Bus drivers? Why not the pictures of people climbing over the fence at the Rio Grande with their tool belts and circular saws? Why the idiotic claim that “skilled carpenters” in Houston are working for a little more than experienced “laborers” in North Platte, Nebraska? (Yeah, you can look that one up, asshole).
Why else would a despised jerkoff like yourself sit on this glov FOR A YEAR and pimp this nonsensical racist anti-immigration crap, Darrell? Why? Why would a guy who is an AVOWED HOMOPHOBE sit here and do that? Because he is concerned about the wages of carpenters in Houston? Or because he’s a fucking bigot who won’t answer direct questions about his views and opinions? Who runs away when challenged? Who whines when spoken to with naughty language? Who can’t post an article here without using the phrase “The Left?” Who hasn’t had an original thought since 1976?
Who do you think you are fooling, Darrell?
Otto Man
By “coherent argument,” does Darrell mean “making shit up without any proof and then running away when asked for evidence” or does he mean “plagiarizing Sen. Cornyn”?
Hard to say. Darrell makes his coherent arguments in so many different ways.
Darrell
But just because that was the example you were “thinking of”, doesn’t mean that the Russians limited their attempts at imposing the Russian language only on the Ukraine. Furthermore, I understand the Ukranian is very similar to Russian.. almost like a related dialect. Am I mistaken?
ppGaz
Yeah, a glov is a blog, Darrell, you stupid shit.
ppGaz
When has that ever mattered to you?
Darrell
Translation – I’m a pea brain, and I feel intimidated by Darrell. I wish he would just go away so I wouldn’t have to feel so stupid
ppGaz
Ottoman, piece of furniture that you are, can you visit my url and divine my email address and send me a msg?
I have some info for you.
Mr Furious
Ugh.
No Darrell, these threads are actually filled with coherent arguments, you just choose to ignore them. In fact, your stubbornness makes engaging you largely a waste of time, and makes me wonder whether you are for real or just having fun pushing buttons.
You are so ridiculous, you are practically a parody of yourself at times.
Coherent enough?
ppGaz
For the common good, just go away. For the children.
In the name of everything decent, go away.
If you have any shame at all, just go away.
Otto Man
No, I wish he could be man enough to provide evidence for his wild assertions or admit he just made a bald-faced lie.
The only way your writings make me feel stupid, Darrell, is that we’re all considerably dumber for having heard them.
The Other Steve
You know I was thinking. AFter listening to Darrell go on about how wonderful the GOP protects Workers by way of their anti-immigration policies.
Wouldn’t it just be a good idea if the Republican Party renamed itself? I was thinking something patriotic, that signified their connection with the workers.
Maybe something like the American Workers Party.
Granted, with their new found love of big government, maybe they should think bigger. A name like the National Socialist American Workers Party would be more fitting.
Darrell
I’ve confronted them head on, as I always do. I responded to you as I did because whenever you lose an argument, you start levelling personal insults.. because that’s all you have left. Anyone doubting this can re-read this thread for themselves.
Darrell
Tell us Otto Man, what are my “wild” assertions that I “lied about? You seriously don’t realize how stupid you are, do you?
Otto Man
Hmm. Apparently my furniture genes can’t do that. What’s the address?
ppGaz
Uh, Darrell …. that’s not your head. You can’t put your whole hand around your head.
The Other Steve
All of the Slavic languages are similar.
I think my point is largely that the free market will decide. Language will naturally evolve towards a single common language for the region, especially in light of economic demands.
The policies of enforcement that we’ve seen historically have all ended up bad.
So the broader point is, trust in the free market. Don’t allow your fear to take over and cause you to react in a bad way.
Otto Man
You’re not too good at reading are you? For the sixth time, this is the statement I think you’re pulling out of your ass:
One more time, Darrell. Provide some proof of this or take your immense intellect back to Sen. Cornyn’s office.
ppGaz
Otto, see the first text on my photosite page, written by the same person who created me. The address is more or less right there. It has the letters ppg in it.
Pb
Woo, Darrell’s off his meds again. That’s what we really need around here, more delusional Republican ‘translations‘–there aren’t nearly enough irresponsible and libelous mentions of ‘sedition’ and ‘treason’ floating around–for example–without it.
ppGaz
Otto, it’s gnidooggp backwards, at rocketmail dot com.
Darrell
One of reasons English has been so successful in establishing itself as the world’s standard, is because it has been open to incorporating phrases and words from many, many other cultures. Compared to French, for example, which has to invent new words solely to ‘compete’ with English.. email, for example, cause a big problem with the Frenchies, so instead of adopting it into their own language, they felt obligated to invent some new term for it.
However, on the issue of national language, as I stated already, all you need to do is look to Canada to see how divisive it can be to have two national languages.
Otto Man
Ah, think I got it. Check and see.
Darrell
Let me get this straight dumbass, I’m supposed to “prove” to your satisfaction that there exists some supporters of abortion who support abortion because it limits the reproduction of minorities? As if that’s not an entirely true statement
Please tell us you’ve got something more than that
Mr Furious
Insults? You mean when I stated you were somebody playing a joke? Merely an observation/supposition on my part.
Because if I’ve insulted someone, they usually know it.
You on the other hand “confront issues head on” by making up wild crap and dazziling us with your pure conjecture.
Then, when called on it, you flex your muscles in the mirror on the back of your mom’s basement door while you preeningly type how quiveringly insignificant I (or Otto) are before your fearsome visage.
Should we start calling you “Red Dragon?”
Trust me. At no point have I ever felt that I am losing an argument to you. I merely reach a threshhold where it becomes apparent that you are unreasonable and not worth engaging.
Since I’m not losing any argument today either, I’ll just skip right to the insults. Jackass.
LITBMueller
I’m GLAD this law passed! Next time I go through the drive-thru at Taco Bell, I’m gonna yell into the speaker, “Hey! This here sign should be in ENGLISH! This is ‘Murica, dammit, and its the LAW!!!!”
Seriously, though: the whole language/culture/unification argument is total crap, spouted by people who have never traveled abroad. American culture and English is everywhere. Its spoken in international business, shipping/freight, airlines, academics. A ton of coutries consider English to be one of their official languages, including Singapore, Malaysia, Cameroon, Ghana, Kenya, the Phillippines, etc.
As a first language, English is the 3rd/4th most-spoken in the world.
Its safe.
Otto Man
Uh, … yes. Because you’re the one who made the claim.
Seriously, is this Doug J? Because no one can really be this dumb.
JWeidner
So, not to hijack the thread or anything (wait, Darrell’s been here, so I’m fine), but…
The Other Steve:
Which team is your pick?
McNulty
I’m not Steve, and hockey isn’t important, but Carolina.
ppGaz
Who the fuck on the intelligent side of this conversation is advocating ANY “national languages,” Darrell? Who needs a fucking “national language?” Do you need one to feel safe from the brown people? The country has managed to make it 250 years without one. What’s the big problem?
Are you skeered of all those Tacquerias opening up in your neighborhood?
Darrell
Otto repeatedly demands proof that there exists abortion supporters who support abortion because they believe it reduces procreation of certain minorities.. yet he accepts without question or challenge this statement which was in the very same post:
But you’re just looking to have an honest debate, right Otto?
Steve
No one can queer a thread like Darrell. As soon as I saw this thread I knew it wouldn’t be long before he came by to tell us how the only racists in this country are Democrats.
You have to admire the 29% of the country who still believe they speak for a majority.
Brian
Our Constitution is written in what language? Our civic business is carried out in which language?
There’s nothing wrong with stopping the ridiculous pandering to immigrants via accomodating other languages in government documents and business. It’s unnecessary.
It’s such an easy decision on its face, I can’t see why anyone (other than radically pro-immigrant forces) would want to sustain this accomodation. If you think it’s a wedge issue, think again. People will quietly thank Congress for finally dealing with this nonsense.
No other country is so accomodating to illegal immigrants. Witness the passing of the amendment allowing illegals to receive Social Security benefits even though they were obtained thru the use of forged documents. If that’s not accomodation, what is? If you support this, you have no credibility regarding the rule of law.
Otto Man
Man, Darrell, you’re really no good with evidence. That second quote you provided came from “Gold Star for Robot Boy,” not me. But in any case, it seems to be amply supported by the Fox News rant about how all these Hispanics are having too many babies and the white folks need to get procreating before they’re overtaken by brown people. Your statement about pro-choice racism, though, is still unsubstantiated.
Keep up the great work, Darrell. You’re making Doug J look like Buckley. Your arguments are both hilarious and sad, like the suicide of a clown.
The Other Steve
Actually most of the French use english terms for computers and such. It was the French Government which tried to officiate new words. The problem is, they’re slow. By the time they come up with the proper word, the english word is in common usage.
See what problems are caused by trying to mandate something through government?
Canada seems to be getting along just fine.
I guess I just don’t understand why you are so afraid of the free market.
ppGaz
Just when somebody might actually think you are serious, you say this spoofy over the top crap. Blew your cover once again.
Nice try, though. Try not punctuating your work with armpit farts all the time.
The Other Steve
So why are you so afraid?
This bill, this attitude… it’s not about stopping pandering.
It’s about fear. Fear that your argument is going to lose in a free market of ideas, so you have to get the government to mandate it.
It’s really quite pathetic.
RandyH
I think things like customs/immigration papers need to be provided in several foreign languages, you know, like the customs declaration form you fill out on the plane when coming into the country. That and the directions for those forms need to be available to people who don’t understand english well enough to fill it out. Also, you will notice that your passport is printed in english and also french. I think there’s some international standard for doing that. And much of the state department’s material is obviously provided in multiple languages. Things like these are likely mandated by law.
As for the DMV, that is a state agency, governed by each state’s laws. In California, they provide materials in probably 8 different languages, but you must be able to read english language street signs and provide your own translator when dealing with DMV employees.
Yeah. I think the democrats should do radio commercials of this ‘en espanol’ for the spanish radio market. Something like this: “In the last election, the Republicans tried to exploit people’s fears of gays. Well, this year the hispanics are the new gays. That’s right, the Republicans are going to treat you like you are all ‘evil homosexuals’ now in order to scare the lazy white masses enough to support the party of corruption and incometence. And they claim to be the ‘big tent’ party. Yeah, right.”
ppGaz
The existence of something does not make it generally true, or relevant.
It only makes it into the straw from which you can construct your endless tedious fucking strawmen.
Mr Furious
Not to fear, Darrell. Your reinforcements have just arrived…
Perhaps you can point us to someone, anyone besides Darrell and John Gibson who is thankful for this bullshit.
And you’re argument about SS benefits? Um, do you suppose those illegal immigrants contribute far more to SS than they ever hope to collect in forty years if they’re still here, or is that money stolen directly from you?
Darrell
I love this. Everyone knows that Internet talk is cheap, but I’ll bet my passport has more stamps than all the liberals posting here combined.. or damn close to it. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.
What makes the left such jackasses, is that they ignorantly assume that anyone who disagrees with them must be uneducated and/or untraveled. Pathetic really.
Mr Furious
I meant to address the second part there to Darrell’s wingman, Brian.
JWeidner
Brian, why does the fact that we provide language assistance to many different nationalities bother you so much? Is it really so bad to have government documents printed up in Vietnamese? Chinese? Is it so terrible that immigrants may need access to legal documents that they can clearly read and understand? Not all immigrants (legal or otherwise) have an overwhelming command of the English language.
Set aside the issue of illegal immigrants, and the issue of English as an official language becomes pretty ridiculous.
Darrell
Refresh our memory Otto, what was “my” argument about SS benefits? Or did you just make that up as an excuse to launch another strawman?
John S.
I officially declare this thread Darrelled!
Ā”Viva la revoluciĆ³n!
Steve
It’s quite humorous that you think Congress has actually dealt with anything, or that this bill does anything substantive whatsoever.
I kind of get the sense that you are among the some of the people who get fooled all of the time.
Pb
ppGaz,
To say nothing of the Trattorias, or the occasional Ichiban, or Kanki… ph33r!
Otto Man
Seriously, learn how to read. That was Mr. Furious.
The Other Steve
What the fuck is this? I mean seriously, why can’t you just be honest with yourself and talk about things in a fair and honest way? Why must you make up shit?
This is what the WashPo says happened…
“For example, the Senate killed an amendment offered by Sen. John Ensign, a Nevada Republican, that would have prevented immigrants who legalize their status from getting Social Security credit for work while they were illegal.”
If they fucking paid into Social Security, and they legalize their status. Then what’s your fucking problem with their payments being counted?
This is why people call you names, Brian.
And don’t lecture me on the Rule of Law, you fucking twit who supports a President who spits on the law every day. They defeated your fucking amendment, which means that whatever it is you don’t like IS THE LAW.
I’m not a fan of illegal immigration and would like to see it stopped, but my god you guys just give us a bad name with your pathetic drivel.
The Other Steve
Oh hell, I’ll bet mine has more stamps than yours and I’ve only been out of the country four times.
I suspect it’s because you act like you are uneducated and/or untraveled. That’s really the pathetic part.
JWeidner
McNulty:
Steve, not Steve…that’s all right. Ducks are my pick. They may be rusty after their layoff, but if they come out as strong as they did vs. Colorado, they should win their way into the Cup series.
Darrell
Steve has a fair point.. but the legislation does say that it would free government from providing translations of official communications unless specifically required by law.. forcing politicians to go on the record to make it law if they want to do otherwise, and then justify those actions to voters
LITBMueller
Awesome, Darrell! You managed to “attack the messenger” without actually addressing the substance of what I wrote! You could show Hannity a few tricks!
If you want to hold on to your belief that gay scout masters are always child molesters, than I feel comfortable with my own assumption that a majority of the people who most strenuously argue for “English-only” probably haven’t travelled farther than their local WalMart.
Wanna address my real point? That the English language and American culture are everywhere, and quite safe?
Davebo
Dunno, did you fill out the form DS-4085 to get additional visa pages added to yours?
Pb
Incidentally, all of this ‘official language’ crap reminds me of the French and their language police gestapo bullshit. Err. Can I still say ‘gestapo’, or will the language nazis come and… err… can I still say… ah fuck it.
Darrell
Letting them benefit their SS payments made using a fraudulent SS card would be like telling a first time offender thief who was let off with a warning by the judge, that he could keep his stolen goods, essentially profiting from the crime he committed at that time. There needs to be at least some consequences for knowlingly violating our laws, and forfeiture of SS payments paid during that time of breaking our laws does not seem so excessive as you suggest.
Darrell
Strawman, strawman! Get yer red hot strawman right here!
Steve
But what could require the government to provide translations against its will, other than the law?
If I sue the government to make them print something in Swahili, presumably I have to either point to a law that requires them to do so, or else to something in the Constitution. If there’s a constitutional requirement to print stuff in multiple languages – I dunno, maybe they have to print ballots in other languages to ensure everyone the right to vote – then obviously Congress can’t trump that regardless.
So I have no idea what, in real terms, this bill actually does. But I’m very proud of the Democrats for refusing to sign onto the Republicans’ totally pointless bill and instead passing what appears to be a totally pointless bill of their own.
Mark
Ottoman:
If you’re going to complain about a misquote, you probably shouldn’t follow that up with a deliberate misquoting of your own. The actual quotes from Gibson’s original speech are not nearly as bad as they may appear when selectively quoted or bolded on places like Atrios or MediaMatters. For instance, the main thrust of his argument, if you care to read the whole thing here, is that Europe and Russia are doing a poor job of maintaining their cultural compositions. I didn’t read this so much as a racist thing as an opposition to some of the unrest in France and Denmark from the Muslim quarter. At any rate, Gibson concludes with thre remark that “So far we’re doing our part here in America, but Hispanics can’t carry the whole load.” That is in stark contrast to the statement you made that he’s concerned about white people being overtaken by brown people; in effect, he is thanking Hispanics in this country. Maybe you view this as completely disingenous and an attempt to provide subtle evidence that he is not making a racist argument. I see it more as a cultural imperialist argument; he likes America the way it is and doesn’t want its culture to change by relying on too much immigration (which would naturally shifty culture to some degree). I think this is really being blown way out of proportion.
Davebo
One could argue that the “stolen goods” were the original contributions made by the worker and his employer.
It’s estimated that 8 billion dollars a year are paid into SS by illegal workers who will most likely never see a dime of it.
Look on the bright side dude. Sure, you’re never gonna get laid. But Pedro and Juan are picking up the slack for your retirement so it doesn’t matter.
ppGaz
Get yer red hot cowardly bigot!
Again, Darrell …. why should gays not be scout leaders?
I think the last time you ran away from this question, your line of bullshit was that “most people” thought it was a bad idea.
Why would “most people” think it’s a bad idea, Darrell?
Darrell
I would assume this legislation clarifies the confusion on that issue. It gives legislators an “out”, but they have to actually pass a law to get around the English-only requirement if they want go to the taxpayer paid expense to print documents in hundreds of different languages
Otto Man
If that’s his argument, Mark, then I’d still disagree with it, though on the cultural not racist grounds.
But Gibson did say this:”By far, the greatest number [of children under five] are Hispanic. You know what that means? Twenty-five years, and the majority of the population is Hispanic.” And then later claimed: “To put it bluntly, we need more babies.”
Sounds like he’s not that thrilled with the Hispanics doing their part.
John S.
Darrell makes no distinctions. To him, we are all just lefty kooks – except for Brian, of course.
I guess it’s just easier to have one boogeyman lurking under your bed.
Pb
I can’t in good conscience support both the confiscation of Social Security payments from illegal immigrants who become citizens *and* requiring them to pay whatever fines and back taxes they might have missed because of their status (note: many of them are already paying income tax, etc., as well). I say, if for whatever reason (probably because of how messed up the actual underlying system is) you can’t let them have their Social Security payments under their new valid Social Security numbers, then at least let them contribute those payments against whatever fines and taxes, instead of greedily confiscating it all from those least able to tolerate it.
demimondian
Brian is not Darrell’s wingman. Darrell is his own wingnutman.
ppGaz
What a wanker. Hispanics are quite capable of figuring out who is using them as scapegoats. They don’t need instructions from you … or anyone.
Darrell
Anyone wanting to gauge the dishonesty of the left need only look at how they characterized what Gibson said.
demimondian
Bill Gates speaks English? Or are you referring to Steve Ballmer?
Otto Man
Put differently, Mark — if racism isn’t part of Gibson’s argument, then why lead his piece with the alarmist statement that Hispanics are soon going to be the majority in America? Why not just jump in with a comparison of birth rates here (without mention of race) compared with birth rates abroad? Why bring Hispanics into it at all? In the midst of the border panic and the illegal immigration debate, it seems disingenuous at best and a poor choice of argument at worst.
But I take your point — the full piece takes on a different meaning than the spin at Media Matters.
Cyrus
You’re right, Darrell, Canada is bitterly, bitterly (peacefully and democratically) riven by its longstanding (older than U2 but younger than the Beatles) separatist movement that has reduced QuĆ©bec to a hotbed of ethnic strife (really, have you seen what they call poutine? It ain’t pretty.)
And it works both ways too. After all, one only has to look at the example of Iraq* to see how well a common language can unify a country.
* Yes, to all the pedants around here, I know both Arabic and Kurdish are pretty common in Iraq. But most of the violence we keep on hearing about is Arabic speaker vs. Arabic speaker, except of course for when it’s aimed at English speakers.
Otto Man
Still waiting on that pro-choice racism quote, Diogenes.
Mr Furious
At least my failure to clearly address Brian and not Darrell goes by the boards, since Darrell is blaming Otto…
[head spinning]
Mark
Otto Man:
I’m not saying there isn’t plenty in there to disagree about. But for all the parts you cite, there are other parts (the doing their part quote I reference above, for one) that directly contradict the idea that he is fearful of a brown America. And the focus of the article seems to me to be more on general population growth than minority population increases in America. At any rate, I really don’t think there’s anywhere near enough there to bury Gibson as a racist.
Steve
Okay, but I think “stolen” is a pretty strong word when the worker voluntarily gives a fake Social Security number to get a job. He doesn’t exactly have an expectation that someday he’ll get a benefit from those payroll taxes; he takes the job either way.
I don’t feel particularly strongly about this issue but I’m certainly not offended by the idea of making people forfeit their accumulated Social Security payments as part of the naturalization process. We accept that it’s fairly normal for illegals to have to pay a fine to get amnesty, right? So think of this as part of the fine. And I suspect that those 8 billion dollars a year that we never have to pay back are quite helpful in terms of preserving Social Security’s long-term viability, and that’s in everyone’s interest.
It’s kinda like if I stole Darrell’s passport and used it to go travelling around the world in his name. When they finally caught me at it, I wouldn’t expect to be able to keep all the frequent flier miles for myself. Okay, that’s probably a bad analogy, but he’s so proud of the passport that I wanted to bring it up again.
Davebo
Why bother. Bury him as an idiot and we can move on.
Otto Man
I take you point, Mark. I still see some underlying racism in the opening bit and take that as a disingenuous appeal to those white Fox News viewers — a not-so-subtle reminder about the rising Hispanic birth rates and what it would mean to America’s racial composition in the future.
He may want Americans to have more babies to keep the “Christian culture” intact, but he’s appealing to racist fears to get it done. Or that’s how it looks to me.
Pb
Steve,
That’s actually a pretty good analogy. Frequent flier miles are something of value that you build up over time as you pay into the (airline) system, to redeem later. It’s your money, so why wouldn’t you get it?
Mark
Otto Man:
Well, the way I read it, he introduces the statistic by saying “First, a story Wednesday that half the kids under 5 years old in this country are minorities. By far, the greatest number are Hispanic.” This article was posted on Thursday. My instinct is that he read or did a story on Wednesday regarding these statistics, which led him to think about the issues that he goes on to address in his column the next day. He chose to start the column with the same thing that started his thinking on the issue. At least, that’s the most innocent spin on this, and it seems at least somewhat plausible, considering how he introduced it. That being said, I would definitely agree that it is at least inartful wording. And who knows, maybe he does hate minorities. But I need some more evidence to make that call, and again, I don’t see this as anything to bury someone over.
Otto Man
Fine enough, Mark. But I agree with the sentiment that John “Five in the Noggin” Gibson is stupid enough to be buried on the merits, racism or no.
Mark
There is a fair amount of room for interpretation with this, so I certainly won’t begrudge you yours.
I’m just wondering what kind of person would conceive a child based on John Gibson’s recommendation. I can’t even imagine John Gibson’s wife doing that.
Steve
Well, I really didn’t want to get stuck working with this analogy, but the point would be that if the only reason I was able to fly is that I illegally posed as someone else, it would be a bit much for me to insist that the miles be transferred to a new account in my name once I got caught. I mean, it would be awfully nice of them to do it, but it’s not something I exactly feel entitled to.
It’s illegal for these workers to be here in the first place, the only reason they have the job is because they used a fake Social Security number, so I’m not offended by anyone who says they shouldn’t be building up credit in the system while they’re illegally working.
At the end of the day, it’s just an amnesty fine by another name.
Otto Man
Now, on that point, we can argee completely.
Pb
You know, it’d really be something if President Bush used his first veto against something like this… :)
LITBMueller
Guess none of this discussion matters. The Decider has decided that he opposes the Senate bill, according to Alberto “Its Unclear if My Grandparents Came Here Illegally” Gonzales.
Heh.
Pb
Steve,
And that is indeed where the analogy breaks down–generally speaking, they aren’t posing as someone else. And, of course, there’s more here at stake than just a few frequent flier miles. :)
But if I agreed with that argument, then I wouldn’t require them to pay any back taxes, either.
Mr Furious
This thread sure is pointless, but it has made for some good laughs…Davebo, Otto, Robot Boy, give yourselves a hand.
Forget illegals picking cabbage. Engaging Darrell is the work no Americans want to do.
Steve
Isn’t that basically what it means to use a fake SSN?
ppGaz
Where’s the love? My 1:17 was gold. Gold, I tell you.
Pb
Mr Furious,
Hahah… we should pay some illegals to mock Darrell. I’d love to see that thread.
Darrell: Esta noche, el Presidente Bush hablĆ³ de su visiĆ³n para la reforma integral de inmigraciĆ³n.
IllegĆ”l numero uno: Ā”No me gusta Darrell!
IllegĆ”l numero dos: Ā”SĆ, seƱor!
IllegĆ”l numero tres: Ā”Darrell es un gringo estupido!
etc.
ppGaz
PoTD.
Pb
Steve,
No. They’re posing as citizens, but they aren’t necessarily impersonating anyone else. That’s why the “using Darrell’s passport” analogy breaks down–no Darrell involved. And really, they’re better for it… Now if you had said that you were using a forged passport instead of a stolen passport… :)
Darrell
Las cucarachas entran, pero no regresarƔn.
Andrei
I have a great experiment for Tim F. and John Cole to try. For a week, ban any comments from anyone from this list or who uses IPs from this list.
1. Darrell
2. ppGaz (sorry bud, you allow yourself to get baited much too easily.)
3. DougJ (just post as a real persona with no spoofing please)
4. Brian
5. Stormy (although she seems gone)
6. TallDave
7. scs
8. Slide
9. Pb or Pooh… I always get the two confused. Whichever one comes off more aggresivley.
10. And sure, add me back into that list if you like, I don’t care.
11. Whoever else you think causes too much friction in the comments section.
I’m really curious to see if the comments might actually be worth reading again. You know, actually contribute to an article versus being nothing more than a reflection of the bullshit we hear on talk radio and watch on our entertainment based news channels. (They cancelled Crossfire for a reason guys…)
Then after that, try another experiment. Set the time limit to only allow posting a comment once an hour per person with a character limit. Just to see what happens. It’s not like you’d lose your readership over ten or so people. Peter Daou and PJMedia would still drive your traffic.
Since people can’t seem to help themselves ignoring Darrell in any thread, it be nice to try and find some way to bring back some sort of useful commentary that actually add to the original discussion.
But maybe that’s just me.
Steve
I really think it makes zero difference whether they are pretending to be someone else or just pretending to be Joe Citizen. If you have to work this hard to draw a distinction, maybe my terrible analogy was better than I thought!
Bottom line is, we all agree, it seems, that if there’s going to be some form of amnesty, it’s ok to make people pay $$$ to get legalized. Whether we call it back taxes, forfeiture of SS payments, or just an outright cash transfer is a minor detail in my book. None of us have any idea whether the amnesty fine is 10 bucks or 20 bucks or 50 bucks, nor do we care, so why bother getting OUTRAGED if part of the fine involves giving up your earned Social Security contributions. It all comes out in the wash.
Steve
What would happen is that everyone would turn into Al Maviva.
SeesThroughIt
KANG: Abortions for all!
CROWD: Booooooooooooo!
KANG: Very well, abortions for none!
CROWD: Booooooooooooo!
KANG: Very well, abortions for some, miniature flags for others!
CROWD: Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaay!
I’d be far more interested in the “abortions for some, miniature flags for others” bill than this pointless “official language” drivel.
Then again, said drivel has created this thread, which has created several rides on the LOLicopter.
Andrei
I did add “a character limit” to tackle that specific problem. Although if Al just learned how to use something simple a paragraph break, the length of his ramblings wouldn’t be so bad to be honest.
The Other Steve
What are you talking about demi?
Everybody knows Bill Gates is the anti-Christ.
Steve Jobs is the Second Coming of Christ!
Or was that Larry Ellison? Not sure, I think they both have second coming of christ complexes.
Perry Como
And a few WTFClouds.
ppGaz
What a wanker. “Worth reading again.” Again, as in when? When Rick and TallDave held court here? When Stormy was Lighting Up Palestine?
No offense, but you are quite full of shit.
Ooops … I was kidding about the “no offense” part. Ha ha, if you get my drift.
Check the name of the blog, man. This is performance art theater here. Nothing else. Never has been anything else in the year and a half I’ve been reading it.
“Friction?” John Cole used to post stuff here that by his own description was just intended to piss people off. Did you mistake this place for a support group?
Punchy
Spoofing is what makes this site so funny. Ban that…well, all humor is lost. Instead, I think everyone should be encouraged to spoof.
And I think Our Greatest President, Bush, would agree. He’s so money on everything else, I’m sure he’s down with the BJ clown….
Paul Wartenberg
If I can thread-jack this board in an entirely new direction, would it be alright if I pointed out that at least we’re not seeing another half-hearted Flag Burning Amendment getting rolled out for public display… um, unless I’ve missed that closed conference on FOX…
ppGaz
Nuh uh … I think there’s a group out there whose goal is to see that something in every state gets named for Ronald Reagan.
In Arizona, I am rooting for the Tom Mix Roadsite Historical Site. I want to call it the “Ronald Reagan Tom Mix Roadside Historical Site.”
Pb
Steve,
I think it makes a huge difference. First, identity theft is serious business, even if some of the results might be positive. And second, practically speaking, having your money in someone else’s actual Social Security account would complicate things.
I’m on the fence on this one, really, but it’s not necessarily unreasonable depending on the proposal.
Not in mine–these are all very different things.
Or, ah, $2,000 bucks, or $30,000 bucks…
Because you earned it? Because it might actually matter whether or not your work was considered ‘legal’ or ‘illegal’? I’m not going to support the confiscation of legal Social Security payments, nor am I going to support back taxation of new citizens for illegal work. If we’re going to be taking their (likely meager amounts of) money left and right, then let’s at least try to craft some nominally sane confiscatory policies here…
ppGaz
Sorry, I forgot the link
Perry Como
Hitlery is working on it. Just give her time.
The Other Steve
Ok, isn’t any taxation just theft to begin with, according to Grover Norquist? So I think it’s kind of funny the Republicans are arguing we ought to be keeping all this money from these incredibly wealthy illegals.
Seriously, I guess I don’t see the value in a debate about social security payments. If we say we’re confiscating them from some guy who was here illegally using a fake number. Chances are the guy’s not making a lot of money anyway. So if he becomes legal, and then goes into retirement. My guess is again he probably doesn’t have a lot to retire off of… so if we’re not paying him social security, we’re going to be paying him some kind of welfare anyway. Otherwise we’re gonna have a bunch of 70 year old homeless guys wandering around, and is that really compassionate?
And if it’s a frickin fake ID, hows anybody going to prove who is who? I mean there were probably 100 guys all named Jose using the same number, because some guy was selling copies on a street corner. Or do the guys making fake IDs customize them that much?
Charge ’em a $100 fine for using a fake ID, and let’s move on already. What a worthless argument to be having.
Tim in SF
Where I come from (San Diego, a border town with lots of Spanish speakers) and where I live now (San Francisco with lots of Chinese and everything-else speakers), city employees print out instructions and directions in many languages in order to smooth things along. It’s not a question of mandates or pandering, it’s a question of efficiency. The managers in charge of those departments see a need, and as good civil servants, they fill it. I don’t know how the DMV moves in your neck of the woods, but if you’ve ever had to wait in line at City Hall or the DMV (shudder) either in San Francisco or in San Diego, it might soften your opinion on this. As a taxpayer, I’m willing to pay the extra penny if it saves me half an hour in line.
As for businesses, there should be no infringement on the rights of business owners to appeal to whatever group they want. The government doesn’t need to get into the business of regulating what people can write on their sign, menu, or anything else. As a consumer, you’re free not to patronize if you object.
Darrell
But you were the one who got all enraged and cussing just because someone suggested that the illegals, if given amnesty, should at least have to forfeit the SS money paid while using their fraudulent SS card.. as if that point of view was some sort of over-the-top idea. Steve said it best
Exactly. Again, it’s not such an extreme suggestion that they face certain consequences for coming here illegally.. although I think it’s far more outrageous that they be given any form of amnesty for jumping the line.
Andrei
As in when Mr. Furious, Steve or Krista have something meaningful to contribute. The last time you actually HELPED the conversation was maybe a year ago. These days, you’re just easy trollbait that dislodges any hope of meaningful discussion to even possibly occur given how you have nothing better to do all day than post on Balloon-Juice.
Good lord. If you think it’s all meaningless, then do us a favor and shut the fuck up already.
ppGaz… Honestly. Go get your own blog. It’s cheap and easy to set up. Then you’ll see just how many people really do or don’t give a shit about what you think.
Steve
No, it would not be alright.
That’s right, friends. English as the national language, gay marriage amendment, flag burning amendment. These are the legislative priorities of the greatest nation on earth, and we owe it all to the Republican Party.
Darrell
Are they really going to try and push another gay marriage amendment? I didn’t read that.
The flag burning amendment is on par with the $100 gasoline rebate idea, which was matched by Dems who offered 2 months ‘amenesty’ on gasoline taxes at the pump. Pathetically transparent and insulting.
Punchy
If I was a maker of ray guns, I’d call my first model The Ronald.
English teaser
We must say “NO” to gay marriages!
It’s dirty pervert thing!
Steve
The gay marriage amendment got sent to the full Senate yesterday, in fact. There was a big dust-up between Feingold and Specter in committee over it.
Andrei
Because senators in the GOP don’t have the balls to debate it openly in public. Read the story for yourself.
Punchy
Debate it in public?? They didn’t even have the balls to WRITE it with Democratic input. Marked it up in some restricted-access room.
How the f#ck do you attempt to change the most important doc in our country in secret??? Fiengold had EVERY right to be livid about this crap.
Sirkowski
What about gay immigrants?
Steve
I don’t know about the gay immigrants, but the asexual immigrants can go fuck themselves.
Par R
Some loony tune Lefty lifted this quote from Bill Buckley, perhaps unintentionally, to attack those supporting the English mandate proposal. How ironic that a conservative argument is used by a freakazoid Lefty to attack a conservative.
Punchy
Par (or Darrell)–please explain why your President doesn’t support this bill (via an interview with the AG). I would like to know why a conservative President doesn’t back this.
Thanks.
Otto Man
Not every state. Every single county in every state.
Darrell
George Bush is not a conservative. At least not on spending and not on immigration. In case you haven’t noticed, conservatives have been blasting his spending since his first year in office.
Par R
I didn’t see/read what the AG said relative to our President’s position on the English mandate, but in an interview on TV I heard him clearly state that immigrants needed to learn English.
Gold Star for Robot Boy
Thank you, thank you. It’s been a fine start to my 35th birthday.
Others born on May 19: Malcolm X, Ho Chi Minh, Bill Laimbeer.
Let the argument over which man personifies evil begin… now.
The Other Steve
When a political party is going down in flames what do you do?
Bring marshmallows.
Andrei
Oh… I totally agree, in case I wasn’t clear on that sentiment. In fact… given the current state of affairs, I’d be interested to see Al Gore run in 2008 with Feingold as VP. That would be an excellent ticket for the Democractic party to provide a clear choice between progressive and mainstream conservative policy choices.
I’d rather see mainstream conservatives forced to debate more important issues like the environment or the budget deficit than peddle pointless policy crap about the national language or gay marriage.
Andrei
They have?!? Links please. I’m curious what qualifies as “blasting.”
Andrew J. Lazarus
I think the idea is to eliminate foreign tourists, who won’t have access to government-produced brochures in their native tongues. I can’t wait for the new all-English I-94 form on international flights.
The Other Steve
Or we whip them with a wet noodle!
Punchy
The link is here
A choice excerpt is this:
Just wondering how you square that view with a man who claims to be a conservative and a patriotic American/Republican.
Tulkinghorn
If English language becomes the official language, won’t W have to learn to speak it?
Darrell
Sorry, I’m not a free research service. Anyone reading conservative publications knows this to be true. The criticsm is/was harsh
Otto Man
Sheesh. Laimbeer by a mile.
Steve
Here’s a good example of a conservative getting really, really tough on Bush’s spending policies.
Par R
Punchdrunk says:
People are comprised of all sorts of ambiguities and mixed feelings on issues. I feel no need to “square” this particular view.
Bob In Pacifica
Is there going to be an official dictionary? Is Halliburton going to build it?
Darrell
Ah yes, the article written by world renowned conservative spokesman “Nick Danger”, whom few have ever heard of, who may not even claim to be a conservative, and no longer has an active profile on RedState. great example
ppGaz
Har! I couldn’t care less one way or the other.
Surely you don’t think that any of this is about what people think, do you?
What a hoot.
Punchy
Uh huh. There’s TONS of Republicans that want open borders, abortions, affirmative action, higher taxes to pay off the debt. In fact, Republicans are ALL OVER THE MAP on these issues. Hell, the Senate–I’m betting–has a healthy dose of Republicans who are in favor of gay marriage. Yes, that unique mix of “ambiguities and mixed feelings on issues” really defines the Republicans. It’s their mantra…their motto.
So much so, that–get this–the #1 Republican, the Pres, is against what every other Senate Republican wants. But that’s just par for the course in that party…everyone having a different “ambiguities” on “issues”… Or so I’m told.
ppGaz
So, if I don’t think right thoughts, I should shut the fuck up?
Fuck you, asshole. Really, I mean it. Fuck you.
Did I mention? FUCK YOU.
ppGaz
No, actually, I think you were the one complaining.
Aren’t you the guy who got banned for calling someone a c**t?
Aren’t you the guy who used to brag about how much money you made?
Perry Como
I love how all of the local political commercials from Dems keep mentioning George Bush. The Republican commercials? They barely mention that they are a Republican.
ppGaz
Here, they have two identifying features: One, they use the word “values” over and over. Sometimes you have to hear the pitch a few times to figure out what on earth they are talking about.
Two, they use pictures of scary people like Howard Dean, John Kerry, and Hillary Clinton and Ted Kennedy. These are “liberals” who have an “agenda.”
So, the good guy (the Republican) has values, and the bad guys have an agenda.
It’s pretty basic stuff.
RonB
BWHAHAHAHA!!! Youre either trolling or huffing gas, Darrell. Thanks for the laugh.
Darrell
“Hate is not a family value” seems to be a popular bumper sticker for you Dems. whatev
SeesThroughIt
I’m certainly not disputing your claim, but I’d just like to point out that Laimbeer’s ability to consistently hit the outside shot enabled the Pistons to run a lot of pick-and-fades with him and Isaiah Thomas, which was instrumental to the team’s success. I can’t see Ho Chi Minh regularly sticking jumpers in Robert Parish’s face.
ppGaz
Hmm. Can’t be too popular, I haven’t seen it. Of course I live here in this lonely outpost of 4 million people.
But anyway, everyone knows that hate IS a family value, right Darrell?
ppGaz
When English becomes the National Language of Texas … I mean, the US …. then the Arizona state motto will have to be read as English.
So, “Ditat Deus” becomes “De tat dis, motherfucker.”
At least, that’s what I’m assuming.
Anyway, no more Latin, since it’s the root of the Latin languages, and … well, you know …. what those Latinos speak.
Otto Man
Of course not. Minh the Master was always more adept at play-making and assists. There’s a reason they called him the Mekong Magic Johnson.
RonB
Signs of sentience.
Ted
How the f#ck do you attempt to change the most important doc in our country in secret???
It’s simple. The Senate republicans have apparently become something of a Central Committee in the Politburo.
SeesThroughIt
Ah, you make an excellent point. Mekong Magic + Laimbeer = the Pick & Roll of Evil.
CaseyL
The GOP platform in 2006 and 2008 will be the same platform that it’s had since 1980: divide and conquer. The wedge issues change; the overall strategy doesn’t.
Pb
Steve
But Howard Dean is unhinged. Just wait, any day now he’s going to go on TV and say Cheney was drunk when he shot that guy.
DougJ
But Dean was screaming and windsurfing when he said that, PB.
John is still glad he voted for Bush, because he believes Kerry would have been a “truly horrible” president. Come on, listen to the way he talks, look at that lantern jaw — how could he possibly have governed the country?
Bush may appoint incompetent cronies to key positions, treat the Constitution like a roll of toilet paper, fail to formulate any sort of plan for Iraq beyond “stay the course”, leak classified information wily nily while constanly decrying the leaks of others, and run up trillions of dollars in federal debt, but Kerry would have been worse, trust me. I’m not sure how, because I can’t think of a single thing that Bush has done right since November, 2004 but one look at that lantern jaw, the barn jacket, and the billionaire wife and I’m sure Kerry would have been worse.
ppGaz
I just wish we could get back to the time when we could have a serious discussion here, call people c**ts, or at least not have the Bush-hating left go on and on about Bush. Back to the time when people could learn about each others’ feelings here, and discuss their personal wealth and pimp their hideous websites and dead blogs without getting all this personal name calling. To a time when a commenter could cheerfully suggest Lighting Up Palestine and we could happily poke fun at a woman who lost her son in the war, or chuckle over a good comedy routine by the president who couldn’t find WMDs in the Oval Office while people are dying in a war about those WMDs, without the foul language and the insults. That’s what I wish.
Pb
Apparently this is the winning platform for the Republicans. Because they’ll be tougher on those [communists / blacks / criminals / terrorists / gays / immigrants], and not coddle them, unlike they say their opponents would. And although you may think them corrupt, vicious, incompetent, dangerous, and untrustworthy, at least they say that they’re not as bad as [Saddam / Clinton / Gore / The Terrorists / Osama / Dean / Saddam / Kerry]…
ppGaz
Pb, now you are thinking like Karl Rove. Welcome to the Dark Side. Welcome to the World of George Allen. Welcome to Focus on the Family.
ppGaz
Sign up to Pray
Emile
Sorry how the heck do you quote on this site?
Anyway, Darrell says:
“However, on the issue of national language, as I stated already, all you need to do is look to Canada to see how divisive it can be to have two national languages.”
How so? Actually, Canada has many national languages and two official languages.
I don’t know where you get the idea that having two languages is divisive. In my region, parents complain about the lack of French Immersion schools available they so badly want their children educated in French. I’ve lived in three provinces and have never seen/heard of any examples of the divisiveness of having two official languages. I’m Anglais as are most of my friends, but we all embrace the fact that our country supports bilingualism.
Andrei
Scared to take on the challenge of creating your own blog and venting there. Just log into Blogger. Again… it’s real easy and very cheap.
Heck… I make enough money… I’ll PAY for it the first year.
ppGaz
What the hell is the matter with you?
People who don’t start a blog are “scared?”
Fuck off.
ppGaz
You didn’t answer. Aren’t you the guy who got banned here for calling someone a c**t?
joshua
If this has been said before in this thread, I apologize, but it is my theme for the night.
This country has jumped the fucking shark.
Two hundred thirty years without an official language and now?
God fuck us every one. Because that’s all we deserve.
ppGaz
Well, not really. We’re working and scraping together money out here to get the House back from the crazy people, and doing that would pretty much stop them from really screwing up the country for a couple of years.
I just read that Bush has presided over more offloading of American debt to foreigners in five years than all of his predecessors in over two hundred years have done. So there’s an incentive to change the direction of things here.
They are reckless, these people, but hopefully that will be their undoing.
Andrei
Oh good lord… yes. Of course I was. That’s old news and hardly worth re-hashing. At least I had the courage to use real letters like the “u” and the “n” and not hide behind asterisks. God forbid we all get scared of stringing four letters of the alphabet together.
You on the other hand can’t seem to shut the hell up for more than a day while continually getting baited by someone as idiotic as Darrell. So again, are you afraid to take your act to your own blog even when it is bought and paid for by someone else so there’s no risk to you whatsoever except maybe to your ego? Afraid no one cares?
Are you really that hard up that you feel compelled to slum it here all the time? Get over it already ppGaz. As you say, it’s all hot air anyways, right?
ppGaz
You are one weird asshole, I must say.
The Darrell thing? It’s deliberate and calculated. I have no intention of slacking off Darrell, for reasons already explained numerous times. If you don’t like it, too bad.
I have no intention of starting a blog, again, for reasons already asked and answered. If you don’t like that, tough shit.
As for your c-word episode, you might remember that a bunch of us who had heretofore considered you a fellow lefty advised you to apologize for your transgression, and you basically told us to shove off.
In any event, let me be plain since you apparenlty can’t: I don’t like you, and I am not taking any advice from you. If you don’t like my posts, I don’t care.
Steve
Face it, dude. You’re a chickenblogger!
ppGaz
Bawk?
Perry Como
In Iraq, U.S. troops hear echoes of Bosnia:
Congrats to the Bush supporters. You’ve created a situation that will end in ethnic cleansing.
Perry Como
Some Iraq war vets go homeless after return to US. But the most pressing issue we need to discuss is a national language. Republicans are asshats. So are Democrats. Don’t any of them have better things to do?
Oh, right. A gay marriage amendment.
Perry Como
btw, happy Armed Forces Day. Maybe some of the “conservatives” on this site can call up their congresscritters and remind them.
tzs
Does anyone know why French is the other standard language on passports and custom forms? I can’t help but feel this is some fossilized remnant from Napoleonic times, the Regency, and all those upper-class Brits making the Grand Tour. (I think the Imperial Russian court spoke French up until the Revolution.)
Another possibility is that France is a whopping big chunk of Europe, and until relatively recently (1870 or so) it *was* the biggest unified bit. (Italy had to wait until Cavour, Germany had to wait until…which war was it? Napoleon III vs. Bismark comes to mind.)
Now, of course, if we were doing by usefulness, probably Spanish would be the best “other language” to add.
Oh, and a note to the person above who said that English was the most-spoken language in the world…I’d modify that to say that Broken English is the most widely spoken language in the world.
Damn, I wish we could go back to Latin…
Darrell
I hadn’t noticed that. But I’m not surprised. The French govt. pays out a lot of money to promote the French language. Next time you rent a DVD, notice that if there are subtitles, French is ALWAYS one of the options, even when Spanish subtitles are not available.. Frenchies pay Hollywood to include these subtitles, just as they’re probably paying some govts to include French language on certain forms who otherwise wouldn’t offer it
I blame Jerry Lewis
ppGaz
Darrell pulls another one out of his ass.
Thirty seconds with Google revealed this:
… and this …
French high on list of Western languages
RonB
Come on, Darrell. Tell us what you are doing here. Are you trolling, or huffing gas? Just so we know how to respond. If you’re high, we’ll just laugh at you, and if you’re trolling, we can just ignore you.
The third possibility is that you are serious and I wouldn’t want to think that of you or anyone else.
demimondian
Nah. Darrell’s problem is simpler than that.
Since KRovenDude was demoted from the seat of power, leaving Cheney to sit in Merlin’s chair, Darrell’s source of subtly deceptive talking points has dried up. Now, he’s having to draw on his own intellectual facilities, concerning which he is justifiably humble.
PJM
Ironic that so many liberal spew ad hominems against other Americans in their attempt to claim superiority, showing instead their own bigotry and ignorance. If you have to call someone ‘racist’ or xenophobe, you’ve lost the real argument.
Is Mexico ‘racist’ for making Spanish their official national language? One of the nation’s top advocate for making English our national language, who founded U.S. English? The foreign-born immigrant, multi-lingual, non-white,
Senator S.I.Hayakawa.
The whole ‘racist’ complaint is hollow and phony smear-mongering.
PJM
That reminds me of
Hillary’s bonehead line lat week. seemingly pandering to those parents who who have 20-something children living in their basement, she whined about the youngsters today, saying: ” They think “WORK” is a 4-letter-word.”
AHEM, um, W … O .. R … K … hmmm, 4 letters. Can someone please send Hillary to the private sector, or at least a dictionary, so she can buy a clue?
Reminds me of another story. Ted Kennedy was running for Senate his first time, and was doing the rounds outside factory gates. A worker comes up to him, shakes his hand and asks “Isn’t it true that you haven’t work a day in your life?” Ted Kennedy sheepishly admits that in fact, no he hadn’t. The man replied: “Well, you haven’t missed much!”
ppGaz
Only if they aren’t racists, or xenophobes. If they are, it’s called “calling a spade a spade.” Do you think that there are not racists and xenophobes out there, Mr. Spoof?
Gold Star for Robot Boy
Do you really want to put yourself in a position where you’re forced to defend Bush’s public speaking?
Jerky
to ppgaz – so what do you think about mr. Bush?
Who are Bush, rasist or xenofobe?
Pb
Well, French was the lingua franca, as it were:
ppGaz
Bush himself is probably neither racist nor xenophobe.
The Other Steve
That’s got to be the second stupidest complaint I’ve seen this week.
Hillary worked as a private sector lawyer for years, you moron.
ppGaz
Hey TOS, whaddya think of Nagin’s reelection?
I think the guy is a butthead, and I’m amazed that he won. Maybe his opponent is worse, I have no idea.
AFAIC, this is a guy who failed to prepare his city properly for a disaster that was certain to happen … and is certain to happen again. So his reward is to get another chance at the job. Hmm.
Pb
ppGaz,
Nagin certainly has his flaws, but I think he did a pretty good job during Katrina–certainly better than Bush, Brownie, or Chertoff.
ppGaz
“Pretty good job?”
Hmm. I’ll spare you my challenge to that one, but …
I was talking about pre-Katrina. The city simply was not prepared, and could have been. The human catastrophe we saw could have been largely avoided, and then abated, by better planning and preparation. The flooding was both predictable, and predicted. Nagin should be jailed for the criminal negligence of his city’s state of preparedness.
It isn’t good enough to yell about better levees and flood walls. I am talking about practical preparation for keeping citizens safe and dry and getting them out of harm’s way when the flood comes, because …. it will.
I’m talking about putting public health and safety first and everything else second.
ppGaz
State Secrets
Iraq Fubar
Two really excellent blog articles this morning.
Pb
ppGaz,
Er, yeah, if only Mayor Ray Nagin had put on his Superman outfit earlier, he could have saved the city. Give me a break–this has been an issue forever, and no Mayor is going to be able to tackle it by himself, nor should he be ‘jailed’ because he couldn’t handle what FEMA named in 2001 as the “#1 most serious threat to the nation” by himself. He’s a fucking *mayor*. You might as well blame the Mayor of New York for not preventing a terror attack, or the Mayor of San Francisco for not evacuating everyone in the event of a catastrophic earthquake. But really, either of those cities are probably way better funded and more prepared than New Orleans ever was.
Now, as for what Nagin actually *did* do:
You hear that? Nagin declared the first and only mandatory evacuation of New Orleans ever. Now I’m in North Carolina, and we see our share of hurricanes, we have to evacuate people from the coast from time to time. But there’s an attitude amongst some there that it’s not a big deal, they’ll just hunker down and weather it out. Well apparently New Orleans is a bit like that as well–now can you imagine what it would have been like if that had been his response? That they’d never had a mandatory evacuation before, and they aren’t about to start now? That they can weather the storm? Now *that* would have been criminal negligence. And that’s the exact opposite of what Nagin actually did.
ppGaz
Nice rant, Pb, but it had nothing to do with my assertions.
Nagin ordered the mandatory evacuation? Wow. Any high school kid who understood the situation would have done the same thing. My 85-year-old mother could have done better.
No, New Orleans is a special case. It sits literally in a bowl of dangerous vulnerability, and whoever is mayor there should have one and only one first priority: Preparing the city for what happened last August. And like I said, it was both predictable, and predicted. Failing to do everything possible, and by that I mean, everything possible, to prevent what happened last year was, is and will be the first duty of that mayor.
Superman? Jesus, does anyone ever cut the crap around here? It wouldn’t take Superman. It would take a responsible mayor focussed rightfully like a laser beam on public health, safety and preparedness … in other words, exactly what Nagin should have been doing, did not do, and still probably hasn’t figured out that he should do. His abject failure to do it is criminal neglect.
Yes, jailed. At some point public officials need to start realizing that they can and will be held accountable in this country. Nagin deserves jail. The governor of Louisiana probably deserves jail. As for the Feds, I’d say that somebody deserves to be held accountable, and where else do you start but at the top?
Just for the record, I said these same things last summer, and nothing I’ve seen or heard since has changed my mind.
It’s been an issue “forever?” Precisely, and that is the crux of my correct assertion here. What the living fuck were those people thinking down there? Why was anyone surprised at what happened when the water started coming over the flood walls? What the fuck good is a mandatory evacuation for people who have no means to evacuate, or who may not even understand what the order means?
Pathetic, and criminal.
Pb
ppGaz,
In that case, I suggest that you go imprison everyone involved, everyone who wasn’t prepared for the #1 most serious threat to the nation. Feel free to start with every mayor of New Orleans ever, along with all the rest of Louisiana’s governors, senators, house members, and then go on to the FEMA officials, and–of course–all our Presidents.
ppGaz
Sure, could you possibly BE any more fucking ridiculous?
You start with the guy whose administration clusterfucked the most recent actual disaster, and go from there.
And then you show the next guy how to be mayor of the town:
Sorry, the formatting went horribly wrong, but you can still read it.
Anyway, stop being an ass about this stuff and try looking at it in real, practical terms. We’re not talking about “Superman” holding back the water. We’re talking about Good Government Man doing the right things for his constituents … something we seem to have lost track of in this country.
If you think Ray Nagin did a “good job” then you richly deserve to be governed by the Nagins of the world and to have Katrinas happen to you over and over again.
You deserve him, and Blanco, and Bush. Really, you should go to work for them.
Pb
ppGaz Says:
Sure, I could be you.
Your argument was that he wasn’t prepared for it. My argument is that by your standards, no one was ‘prepared’ for it, so you might as well arrest everyone else who wasn’t prepared, period–which would be everyone.
Fuck you–and despite how much of an ass you’re being, no one deserves that, not even you. Ray Nagin literally saved tens of thousands of people, and you’d jail him for criminal negligence. Meanwhile, refresh my memory, you saved… how many people?
ppGaz
It’s his job to be prepared for it, and to prepare the city for it. That’s his job … it should be his first priority, and the measure of his success or failure.
Period, end of story. If you don’t get that, you have no business even discussing this issue.
He’s not the mayor of Branson, Missouri. He’s the mayor of a city below sea level and in the heart of the hurricane belt. A city that lives behind 2nd-rate sea walls. A city that lives under the cloud of the worst potential disaster of any large city in America.
He failed at his job, miserably failed. He’s a failure and a disgrace.
Ray Nagin presided over a fucking city administration that was asleep in the middle of the biggest threat of disaster in this country.
How in the world did he, and his city, and the world get surprised that thousands of people would be left behind in an evacuation that could have been planned for THIRTY YEARS AGO fifteen times over? Because he’s A FAILURE.
Fuck you, man. Defending Nagin is about a notch below … that’s right, BELOW … defending the worthless piece of crap president we have. Nagin is nothing but a fucking empty suit who ought to GO TO JAIL for letting his city be caught with its pants down last year.
Pb
ppGaz,
If that’s his job, then that’s been the job of every mayor of New Orleans ever, and I don’t think that any of them have been prepared for it, or that that has ever been the expectation until now, after Katrina. Do you know what the #1 issue was during that 2002 mayoral election? Hint: it wasn’t hurricanes.
No, miserable failure would be if he just sat on his ass and didn’t do anything until four days after the fact. But instead, he saw that people evacuated *beforehand*. Quite a difference, that.
I’ll call your THIRTY YEARS and raise–there was no reasonable evacuation plan made in the previous THREE HUNDRED YEARS that ensured that thousands of people would never get left behind. And really, I’ve never seen a plan like that, or a hurricane like that. So I don’t think they were necessarily surprised.
Bullshit. I’m not saying that Nagin is perfect–far from it–but compared to Bush’s response, Nagin *is* Superman. And if you don’t get that, *you* have no business even discussing this issue. Now let’s agree to fuck off. :)
PJM
It’s possible many of the so-called progressives out there are closest racists and are engaged in projection. Certainly, I gave an example of bigotted expressions from a progressive in my quote; Bigotry against some groups is apparently acceptable as long as they aren’t in the Politically Correct victims handbook. But since we don’t have windows into men’s souls these days (GWB excepted :-) ), it’s content-free namecalling to accuse someone of such solely based on a position such as supporting English as a national language. If you have to reach for it, it means you are out of facts, logic, and common-sense. Call it PJM’s corollary to Godwin’s Law.
BTW, you didn’t answer the question about whether Mexico is racist for making Spanish their national language. Is it?
ppGaz
That’s about the third time you’ve mounted that defense. Obviously, you actually believe that it’s a defense.
I don’t. I don’t care if a thousand mayors failed to do their jobs, that doesn’t make Nagin a better mayor. Your defense is that he’s just another in a long line of failures. My assertion is that HE’S THE MAYOR NOW, and he’s the one I am putting the responsibility on.
The plan is simple, I drew it for you. And a “hurricane like that?” You’ve “never seen one?”
We “couldn’t have anticipated” the thing?
Bull-fucking-shit. We did, I read about the peril at least twenty years ago, and it wasn’t “news” even then.
It was anticipated, it’s just that we haven’t learned how to demand good government and hold people accountable.
When government totally fucks up, we reelect it, apparently. And of course, we’ll always have folks here who will turn on the mealy mouthed spin and defend the lousy government.
ppGaz
It’s a stupid question. Answer it yourself.
demimondian
You know, I hate to agree with ppG on any issue of substance — but, for heaven’s sake, how can ANY mayor of New Orleans not be obsessed with the prospect of a major hurricane.
Think back to 1992. On August 25, Andrew hit Miami as a Cat 5, tracked across Florida and exited the west coast as a *strong Cat 3*. It then started pumping back up again, missing New Orleans by about 50 miles, and slamming into the swamps as an even more powerful Cat 5. I lived in Boca Raton at that time — do you know what we were saying? “Thank God it hit Miami instead of New Orleans.”
I won’t let Drownie off the hook, but I’m not going to let Ray Neglect off the hook either.
ppGaz
Eat your liver.
PJM
No need to get snippy on us, but thanks for at least acknowledging indirectly that bringing up ‘racist’ in this debate, as Harry Reid did, is “stupid”. It’s clear my answer has been ‘no’. Mexico, USA, or any nation has a right to define a singular national language, and it cannot be reasonably said to prejudice against any group/person, since any reasonably competent person seeking to live in that country can learn the language.
ppGaz
Well, since the question won’t be allowed to die the death it deserves …
1) Declaring a “national language” is a political gesture
2) Declaring a country to be “racist” because it is foolish enough to declare a national language is … just a rhetorical device. There are a lot of reasons for declaring a national language, all of them probably wrongheaded, but few of them are likely to be racist in origin.
3) Language is personal and about people, not about countries and governments. The idea of a “national language” strikes me as about as useful as “defense of marriage” or “family values.” It’s the kind of thing people in government do to distract you from the fact that they are stealing your money and neglecting their real responsibilities (see: Nagin, for example).
4) Anything Mexico’s government does is likely to be stupid and self-serving, as near as I can tell. They don’t seem to be able to get out of their own way.
ppGaz
Sorry, I totally disagree with your take on this.
The fact that a country “has the right” to declare a national language, doesn’t make it a good idea. As for being prejudicial … of course it is. That’s just silly, because prejudice of some kind or another is necessary to even conjure up the stupid idea in the first place.
Of course, I use “prejudice” here in its general sense, not its twisted browbeating (civil rights-iness) sense. If one hadn’t “pre judged” that some language is preferable to another, then why would one want an official language?
You know, you can hardly buy anything any more that doesn’t come with packaging or literature in more than one language. I don’t find that to be any particular problem. Why would I consider it a problem if the instructions for filing a lawsuit were available in Spanish? Or for that matter, if the White House made its material available in Spanish? Which, of course, it does
Pb
ppGaz,
Not just a defense, but an obvious fact.
No, it just makes him a not-atypical mayor. The sort of mayor that you’d advocate imprisoning for not doing what other mayors wouldn’t do either. In other words, a mayor.
No, that’s your assertion; I think he did what could be reasonably expected of him to do, as would others in that situation.
I’ve never seen a hurricane where many people didn’t stay behind, yes.
Your words, not mine.
I concur.
No, we know all about scapegoats. Perhaps that’s part of why we haven’t learned how to take these long-term threats seriously enough until they actually happen. But I’m not going to blame Ray Nagin for three hundred years of negligence.
And then we’ll always have folks here who will turn on the nearest scapegoat and imprison him for doing what anyone else might reasonably have done.
ppGaz
Heh, well we’re getting nowhere. You think he’s a scapegoat, I think he’s a criminally negligent self-serving politician asshole.
Other than pointing out that I am right about this, and you are quite wrong, I’m done, unless you’ve got something else.
Did I mention? You are quite wrong. You deserve to spend eternity in a district run by Ray Nagins. As in, forever.
Pb
demimondian,
It’s a mystery–apparently sometimes the focus is on other things, like corrupt police departments or city repairs and economic development or crime or political smears…
Pb
ppGaz
So what else is new. Nyah nyah, fuck off, cheers, etc., later…
ppGaz
AAARRRrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggh.
No it isn’t. There’s nothing mysterious about gross incompetance. At all.
Do we find the gross incompetance of the Bush administration to be “mysterious?” How about DHS or FEMA?
I don’t. I say, just look at the penguins in charge. Look at how they got their jobs, who they are, and what they think is important when they get up in the morning.
As for Nagin, all I can tell you is, if he’d made public health and safety WRT hurricane/flood preparedness his number one priority and focus, Katrina would stand as an example of good government and good work, instead of being an example of collossal government ineptitude.
It’s true that one man can make a difference … especially if he’s the FUCKING MAYOR.
Pb
ppGaz,
Couldn’t stay away, eh?
Three hundred years, baby! Victor Schiro in 1965, Martin Behrman in 1915, Denis Prieur in 1831… of course, in 1722 and 1723, they were under Spanish rule. But in any case, it took Ray Nagin to finally order a mandatory evacuation! Jail for the lot of them!
ppGaz
Just two words, compadre:
Hurricane Pam
ppGaz
All those dead Mayors of New Orleans will be issuing posthumous statements regarding why the living mayor failed to heed to warnings of Hurriane Pam and warn his city that it was literally a disaster waiting to happen, warn his constituents to prepare themselves to get out on short notice, and make sure that their neighbors and relatives and churchmates and schoolmates and friends were ready too, and to get the poor and the sick and the elderly and the handicapped and the people without cars and without the means to evacuate identified and taken care of in advance so that a grotesque catastrophe of human tragedy didn’t happen when the certain and inevitable flood came to their city in the next hurricane season.
Oh, here’s their statement now:
“We don’t know. It’s just a mystery.”
Oops, Pb, I guess you were right. It’s just a mystery.
Oh well, at least the Mayor got hisself a new term so he can bring the city “together.”
It’s almost as painful as watching the Bush administration fight a War on Terror.
ppGaz
Chicago Tribune.
Nagin’s plan was apparently to go on tv and yell “Run for your lives.”
Great job, Ray. Great job.
Pb
ppGaz,
Really, there’s no need to even mention FEMA’s Hurricane Pam excercise in this context, either–I’ve already pointed out that New Orleans has hundreds of years of experience with being hit by actual hurricanes. Nagin is not the first Mayor to run into this. And yet, hurricanes were not–and have never been–their number one Mayoral issue. There’s your mystery.
ppGaz
I will say one thing, though, Pb. Yesterday’s election has saved me from every having to feel sorry for the people of New Orleans again.
Honestly, they deserve exactly what they got. If they can reelect this guy, they truly deserve all the bad government they can stand, plus a little more.
ppGaz
FEMA’s plan is not the point. The point is that the Pam exercise provided all the information needed to ascertain that New Orleans was not prepared, and as near as I can tell, the esteemed Nagin administration did nothing to advance the state of preparation. The Chicago Tribune’s assessment, and a simple examination of the events, show that New Orleans basically had no real plan.
Like I said, it was “Run for your lives!”
And if you couldn’t run, well, tough shit.
ppGaz
The mystery to me is how anyone can defend Nagin.
But then, I’ve been trying to figure out for five and half years how anyone can defend Bush.
ppGaz
Pb, there’s a made-for-tv movie on right now, “10.5 Apocalypse” or something like that.
Earthquakes, huge sinkholes, volcanoes, death, destruction, the collapse of Hoover Dam ….
A bartender in Vegas sums it all up: “I don’t mind telling you … this whole thing’s got me rattled.”
See, that’s the Nagin effect right there. He just looked at the fact that his city was basically doomed, and said, “This whole thing’s got me rattled.”
I don’t know which is worse, at this point: This awful movie, or real life.
ppGaz
Oh-ho-ho-ho-ho-my-fucking-God. Oh Sweet Jesus.
Pb
ppGaz,
Nice hit piece from the Trib there. That’s right folks, The Chicago Tribune, the paper of record for
New Orleansracists, Republicans, and angry white men. But I repeat myself.ppGaz
Yawn. Which of their assertions of fact did you want to challenge?
{ sound of pencil tapping on desk }
“Hit piece?” Jesus, you sound like Darrell now. Is he running a training camp for apologistas?
I know, I’m “the loony left.”
Pb
ppGaz,
I call ’em like I see ’em, but this isn’t anything new for Witt. And I agree that you’re loony, but you’re sounding more like a Dixiecrat lately.
ppGaz
Sure. I’ll be the judge of that, amigo.
Enough of your spoofy argument.
romey
At any rate, the 2006 election agenda-setting continues on. Immigrants = the new gay. Very fine, i’m laughing =))
Cactus Wren
I’m a former Democrat (and liberal). After reading this thread I’m reminded of ONE of the reasons I turned my back on that agenda.
“Liberals” always resort to calling others racists, sexists, or other derogatory terms when they don’t agree with them.
I don’t get it; but lacking evidence that points to anything else, I’ve come to the conculsion it is because they are either close-minded, childish, or in some cases, just plain ignorant.
“Liberals” is in quotes because they aren’t really open in their acceptance of others. “Liberals” certainly don’t respect or support individuals – or individualists.
“Liberals” are only supportive of those they can conveniently identify and group as some kind of “lump” in society that needs Their Help. I’ve witnessed in real life that Their Help only keeps people down.
Conservatives have their problems, too, IMO, but I’ve about reached the conclusion that “Liberals” with their sugar-coated programs that in reality keep people at the bottom of the socio-economic ladder, are indeed dangerous.
Anthony
wow, role of english in usa =))))))
Johnson
One of reasons English has been so successful in establishing itself as the worldās standard, is because it has been open to incorporating phrases and words from many, many other cultures. Compared to French, for example, which has to invent new words solely to ācompeteā with English.. email, for example, cause a big problem with the Frenchies, so instead of adopting it into their own language, they felt obligated to invent some new term for it.
However, on the issue of national language, as I stated already, all you need to do is look to Canada to see how divisive it can be to have two national languages.
Candy
Well I take great pride in knowing there is a republican legislator in Alabama who wants sex toys to be illegal in that state. It will be a felony to sell sex toys in that state. Guess there is not much crime down there for the cops to deal with.