Scotty Out?
CNN says maybe.
In my somewhat-informed opinion I think that Ari left because he found himself too far inside the Plame story to credibly answer questions. The ‘ongoing investigation’ excuse did not exist yet so if someone came up with a real zinger or a juicy scoop Ari would have had a hard time dodging effectively. He was there, he was a player and he never knew whether the questioner had some killer follow-up in store that would belie whatever dodge he might think up. Did something similar happen with Scott McClellan? Who knows. The scandals have grown so thick you wonder whether they can keep up.
For me the emblematic story of McClellan’s tenure was his gleeful stonewalling of the Plame story on the basis of prejudging an ongoing investigation. It frustrated the White House correspondents by basically shutting them out of the story and leaving meaningful developments to freelance muckrakers like Murray Waas (on whom they took revenge by ignoring his scoops), but at least it has a sort of internal logic. It did, anyway, until the president openly prejudged an ongoing case to help a political ally. You could say the same thing about any post in the administration at this point, but trust and credibility have eroded so badly for McClellan that it would probably be best to give someone else a fresh start at the job.
Speculate about whether CNN has it right, theorize about why Mac got the boot and share your favorite Scotty stories in the comments.
D. Mason
When they make the Bush regime playing cards, which card will Scotty be? The joker perhaps? Or maybe just a
douchedeuce.Stormy70
What Plame scandal? The one where Wilson attended a Kos convention, or the one where Fitz’s case seems to be unraveling? Wilson = partisan hack. I can’t wait for them to call his ass to the stand. Libby’s lawyers are going to be fun to watch as they dismantle Fitz’s investigation. I will need lots of popcorn.
Do I need to bring up the several cases Fitzy has screwed up lately?
Of course, nothing will convince any of you, so why bother.
Plame over, man. Plame over.
Tim F.
We missed you, Stormy.
DougJ
It’s about time Scotty was forced out. His economic programs have plunged us trillions of dollars into debt, his plan for Iraq has been a disaster, and his decision to circumvent the FISA courts was a clear breach of federal law.
Why wasn’t Scotty forced out a long time ago?
tBone
Stormy, if you had thrown in a drool-soaked comment about Naveen Andrews, you could have had a real contender for “Most Stereotypically Stormy Post Ever” there.
VidaLoca
Yup. And, I’ll give Stormy credit, I think she’s more on top of contemporary pop culture than some of us geekier types.
Stormy, have you taken a position on the burning topic of “Snakes on Planes” yet?
absolutely yes. These are separate cases, or situations in the Plame case where he has screwed up?
c’mon, we’re curious. Why are you being such a tease?
Pb
SeesThroughIt
My favorite Scotty moment was this one:
Scotty: mouths bullshit talking point
Member of press: C’mon, Scotty, that’s bullshit. Just answer the question.
Scotty: remouths bullshit talking point
Member of press: Well, I’m placated.
Oh, wait, that was every Scotty moment.
Brian
That’s a gem. Who were predicting Fitzmas last fall? Predicting Rove being hauled off to the hole?
Stormy’s right, this investigation’s over, or at least close to being over. Fitz is in over his head, and it’s becoming clear that he’s possibly running his investigation in an illegal manner.
The most sorry characters in this little drama are Val and Joe, the cutesy “covert op” and her blow-dried wanker hubby, positioning themselves as victims of Bushco when it turned out that they strapped themselves to the tracks so the political train could run them over.
JoeTx
Lying 24/7 is hard work!
John S.
This is absolutely brilliant! Without a doubt, Stormy has latched onto the bona fide way for a person to queer any debate. Examples:
Please discuss the impact global warming is having…
What global warming?
Please discuss the failures of the Bush administration…
What failures of the Bush administration?
And so on and so forth. The Ostrich Theory® is by far the most amazing device ever conceived for thwarting your opponent in a debate, because how can you even engage someone who doesn’t acknowledge the topic you are supposed to be discussing?
Sojourner
It’s good to see that Stormy continues to display her disdain for national security.
Ah yes, the Republican party is the party of national defense as long as it doesn’t get in the way of helping the party.
What a patriot.
The Other Steve
I think we could replace the whitehouse press secretary with computer automation. Wouldn’t even need to be that complicated. The old program would work.
Q: What of the Plame Scandal?
A: Are such questions on your mind often?
Q: Does the Whitehouse have a comment?
A: Say, do you have any psychological problems?
Q: Is the President troubled by events in Iraq?
A: What does that suggest to you?
Q: What about global warming?
A: Why do you ask?
The Other Steve
Oops I meant the old Eliza program. Forgot to close a tag.
Pb
John S.,
Be fair to scs, she’s been doing the old Ostrich routine for quite some time. It’s called ‘playing dumb’. The problem lies in figuring out when people are actually ‘playing’.
Brian,
Do tell. And when you say ‘illegal’, are we talking more or less illegal than potentially putting CIA agents at risk by blowing their cover for partisan political gain?
tBone
My favorite Scotty moment was when Helen Thomas bent him over the podium and brutally violated him with a microphone before biting his head off and dragging his still-twitching body back to her lair for later consumption.
You know, maybe I should stop switching back and forth between CNN and the Discovery Channel late at night when I’m falling asleep on the couch . . .
Par R
It’s great to read a thread in which everyone is debating and discussing with no resort to ad hominem attacks. Ooops, it looks like I posted this comment on the wrong website.
Stormy70
Umm, I will not be incriminating myself with an answer at this time. Suffice to say Naveen is still hot. :)
Brian
PB,
There’s an article from Friday’s WaPo about Libby’s attorneys making the case to the judge that Fitz is operating in an unsupervised and undirected manner. Fitz considers himself a functional equivalent of an attorney general, and should be supervised by Congress, but he’s not. This is the case made by Libby’s attorneys, of course, but the judge may rule in their favor. We’ll see.
As for Plame and Wilson, she was not “covert”, as much as you like to believe otherwise. And, if you can’t stand the heat of Washington, get out of its kitchen. Val/Joe set themselves up for the retribution, and that’s what they got. In fact, it’s what they deserved.
Stormy70
Ok, now to
WARbusiness!Fitz’s cases with problems showcased at Just One Minute blog – Here. and Here.
For those of you who recognize my pop culture geekiness, there is a Two Towers quote in the above. A day is not complete unless one uses at least three LOTR quotes. Usually I direct these at my whiney cat Meadow.
“Why does it cry, Smeagol?” or “Stupid tricksy hobbitsess!” the latter she directs at my kitten Cato. He is her personal black ring wraith.
I’ll stop now. Really.
Pb
Brian,
They’re just throwing more stuff at the wall to see if anything sticks. It won’t, because it’s ridiculous—they should know better than to try this even as a stalling tactic, all it does is show how weak Libby’s case must be.
Bullshit. Apparently Brian knows better than the CIA—maybe Fitz should have talked to you first?
Oh yeah, that’s it, they were asking for it. How dare they step up and tell the truth. What arrogance. Pfft.
The Other Steve
Last I checked, it was the CIA who determined whether or not it’s employees were covert.
You apparently disagree.
I’d like to hear your rational for overruling the CIA.
Paddy O'Shea
I can’t imagine the Bushies will be replacing Scotty with somebody more forthcoming. It’s not like they can really answer a lot of those questions in a straightforward manner. Perhaps they feel a new face will somehow make the same old crap seem fresh and diverting?
Of course, there are lots of trained propagandists who come to mind as suitable replacements. Ann Coulter, Pat Robertson, Jeff Gannon, Phyllis Schlafly, Judge Roy Moore, Toby Keith, any of the nuts on Scrutator, Matt Drudge, Baghdad Bob, Tucker Carlson, Bill O’Reilly, Chris Matthews.
But my take is that they should hire that Smiley Face character from all those Wal*Mart television ads.
Bush*Mart, cheapest lies anywhere.
Brian
Yeah, they were asking for it. Why not call it for what it is? When Joe stepped up and wrote his piece in the NYT, the gloves came off, as they should have. The truth of his piece has been depated endlessly, so maybe it would be very good to have his coiffed ass up on the stand for some cross on the subject. That would be fun.
The CIA used ValJoe as tools to get at Bush. Part of the whole drama was to hide behind her “covert” status, which has been pretty much debunked. Even Fitz admitted as much back when naming Libby as a catch in his prosecution.
And since when do you give so much credibility to the CIA, or any government agency for that matter?
Brian
Well, they can surely get someone more capable of hitting those fat slowballs the media lobs at them, and who can bring a nice, tasty rhetorical plug to shove into Helen Thomas’s jug of a head.
God, it’s a job I’d love to have. The luxury, the sheer enjoyment, of taking on the media in that venue would be bliss.
DougJ
Tone it down, Brian. You’re blowing your cover.
Paddy O'Shea
Brian: But this is the new Bush era we’re talking about here. Wide open for all takers, more willing to do more than merely address the true believers, gonna let “Bush be Bush!”
Maybe I should revise my list.
Barney the Purple Dinosaur? The key board player from The Wiggles?
jg
At one time she was, those contacts she made ten that are still working are blown. The front company she used to work for (that was tracking nuke material to keep it from getting to terrorists) is now burned. These are national security issues you can’t see because you’re being blinded by useless info designed to keep you from looking at the larger issue. Try to see the world that exists farther than 10 feet in front of you. This isn’t a dem/repub issue. They’re making it one so the noise will drown out what really happened. They burned her and a big chunk of an undercover network because Joe Wilson contradicted what Bush said in the SOTU.
Llelldorin
Brian, there’s a difference between giving credibility to a CIA analysis of a country, and giving credibility to their classification of one of their own agents.
Whether or not an agent is covert is a yes/no statement of fact, not speculation. If the CIA issued a report claiming that some country was on the brink of a revolution, or of developing nuclear weapons, or of developing an exciting new cocktail, you know as a matter of course that they’re doing the best they can with regional experts and partial information, and that there’s some reasonable chance that they’re wrong.
That’s completely different from asking them questions about that status of one of their own agents. You’re writing as though they have to infiltrate the CIA, hang around her, and try to suss out her status from cell-phone intercepts!
Paddy O'Shea
Funny to read the posts from all the “Plame was not covert” deadenders.
Maybe this is one of them?
http://www.badmouth.net/graphics/WOW_1.jpg
Punchy
Perhaps you know more than the CIA, b/c they’ve already said she was. Then again, most defenders of the Admin. here know more than the CIA, EPA, FDA, and probably the MLB. They just KNOW Bonds is steroid-free, Plame is undermining the Endangered Species Act, and all contraceptives cause cancer and are a national security issue. It all makes sense in their world.
ppGaz
What kind of person would talk about “Snakes on Plame?”
That’s the last straw.
I am voting Libertarian.
Fledermaus
Tim, it’s not like it is going to be any different with someone else. It should be clear at this point that BushCo has nothing but the utmost contempt for the press corps. Scotty was basically their bitch pup who they would send out and have him jump through hoops and balance talking points on his nose.
I actually felt kind of bad for Scotty sometimes. They never cared one iota about Scotty’s credibility, in this administration press secratary is the equivilent of kitchen duty. I just wonder how they are going to find someone else after having made Scotty shed every ounce of his dignity.
Remfin
Even Fitz admitted as much back when naming Libby as a catch in his prosecution.
Except that part where he called her covert in the filings for the reporter testimony fight. Or where he called her covert in his filings in the Libby case. He’s actually put that in court documents…have any of you people claming she was not covert had the guts to do that?
jg
God, it’s a job I’d love to have. The luxury, the sheer enjoyment, of taking on the media in that venue would be bliss.
The rights disdain for the media is sad. To see people get upset at an institution that is questioning authority is scary. Especially conservatives. They’re politics is based on not trusting gov’t but they are being played by people who tweak their partisan response system. As long as they keep saying its partisan attacks these folks lick it up and ignore the obvious and forget the past. The same media hung the previous president out to dry, the same guy who should have been the darling of the media. They lambasted him.
But the right just doesn’t see that. They rail about out of control special prosectors without a hint of irony.
Ancient Purple
Only the people on the hard right. This was followed by the statements that Fitzgerald was going to indict Joe Wilson.
Still waiting for that.
Brian
Sorry to take this off topic, but I’ve noticed that a pissing contest has begun between Jane Hampster and Red State.
This will be fun. I wonder where Cole will come down on this, if anywhere? I know who’s gonna win, that’s for certain. You can pick on LGF quite easily, because if there’s a fever swamp on the Right, there’s where you’ll find it. But the Left has beachheads of hate all over the Internet. This race is not even close.
Pb
DougJ called, he wants his snark back.
Brian
The institution’s authority has been abdicated by self-serving totalitarians who live for a cause that has less to do with truth than pushing a political narrative. Hence, Dan Rather.
The American media in general is beneath contempt. To get real news, I read papers from other parts of the globe.
Mr Furious
McClellan was never up to the task, and now he is clearly puncing WAAY above his weight. His flustered, stammery defensive style worked when Bush was riding high, but when everyone knows you are lying every time you move your lips, his sweaty and clammy nervousness just exudes dishonesty.
They need to coax Ari out of retirement back into the ring, or at least go in that direction. An authoritative prick will handle the coming storm much better than Scotty.
Mr Furious
Really? So how are you feeling after reading the British stories that outlined exactly how Bush lied the country into War? You know, the stories the complicit US media continues to ignore…
Brian
Oh really?
OH REALLY??
Brian
How Bush LIED us into war? No, I haven’t seen those stories, at least not from any credible source. Maybe because he didn’t LIE us into war.
tBone
Brian, we’re talking about the media here, not the White House.
Brian
Heh.
Mr Furious
So what do they call the international versions of the Washington Times, Brian? Or maybe you’re really digging into The European Spectator”?
Try this one from The Guardian. recently backed up by the NY Times and ignored by just about every other possilble outlet.
Mr Furious
Bush was just lying about Saddam and the inspectors a week ago! He has never STOPPED lying.
jg
Dan Rather? He reports what people give him. What was given to him wasn’t properly researched. You killed the messenger. What you shuld be concerned about is that the administration NEVER said the charges were false. They should have immediately denied the charges when the doc was first reported, they didn’t. They still haven’t. They left it to you guys to find a reason to ignore the report. Bush got help avoiding te warzone, he left his TANG assignment early. This happened whether an idiot like Rather uses a real doc or a Xerox copy of a real doc. You can’t seriously believe Bush was assigned to TANG legitimately or that he served his full term can you?
jg
What a surprise. Not that you’d believe them.
Paddy O'Shea
Those who claim that Plame was not a covert CIA agent are the rightwing equivalent of those who claim that Dick Cheney planned 9-11.
http://pics.drugstore.com/prodimg/93844/200.jpg
Pb
Brian,
Why do I sense a self-referential definition here. Anyhow, he lied about a lot of things. It’s entirely clear now that he wanted a war with Iraq, he said what he had to do to get a war with Iraq, he ignored millions of people who told him before and since how foolish he was being, and now we’re all stuck with it. FYI. Pay attention, man.
ppGaz
Traitor.
ppGaz
Hmm. And you read foreign papers?
Which ones, again?
Brian
Mr. Furious,
I read the Guardian piece, but let it be know that I take them with the same grain of sal that you might take with Fox News. The backup of the NYT only forces me to swallow a handful of salt.
But, reading the story, it lays out stuff we already knew, doesn’t it? I mean, sure, we could have had that additional resolution in the UN. But we didn’t, and we know why: because the UN is hardly a shining example of international competence and fairness. It would have been a waste of time. In fact, my take away from the article was that there is much contempt for the UN, and that the world body has little “street cred”.
Do you forgoet about the numerous other UN resolutions against Iraq dating back to the first war? Saddam was thumbing his nose time and again, not only against the U.S., but the entire world. And it turns out that, contrary to stories like this Guardian piece, evidence may finally be coming out that shows the guy did have major plans for WMD, attacks on Israel, planning against the U.S. in concert with terrorists, and more.
Would you prefer we just put the guy back in power and come home?
Brian
The Greenland Gazette.
ppGaz
Tonight, more evidence to suggest, at least in his case, that might not have been true. A secret prewar memo documenting an Oval Office meeting between Mr. Bush and his British counterpart, Tony Blair, long on the political table in England, now verified here.
It reveals the two were determined to go to war six weeks before invading Iraq, Mr. Bush, certain that war was, quote, “inevitable,” Mr. Blair‘s chief foreign policy adviser at the time writing in the memo, quote, “Our diplomatic strategy had to be arranged around the military planning. The start date for the military campaign was now penciled in for 10 March.”
Never mind that then-Secretary of State Colin Powell had yet to address the United Nations for a second resolution condemning Iraq, one that, of course, the administration failed to secure.
Let‘s call in chief foreign affairs correspondent Andrea Mitchell, who has been following this story from Washington.
Andrea, good evening.
ANDREA MITCHELL, MSNBC CHIEF FOREIGN AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Good evening to you, Keith.
OLBERMANN: The president‘s critics were saying then that the war was a fait accompli, the U.N. presentation, all the diplomacy, virtually a sham. Did this document, to any degree, confirm that timeline and that criticism?
MITCHELL: Well, it certainly confirms that timeline. Now, we should point out that there was a previous memo, also British, the so-called Downing Street memo, which reflected the reporting of another British official back the previous summer, which said to the British officials that, after a visit to Washington, that it was very clear that George Bush was set on going to war.
So there had been earlier reporting in the last year or so that there were war decisions being made six months in advance. This clearly, though, does indicate that, at that meeting in the White House with Tony Blair, January 31, ‘03, five days before Colin Powell was going to the United Nations, that this really a military planning session, and that whether or not they found weapons of mass destruction, whether or not Saddam Hussein turned anything over, whether or not there was further action by the U.N., none of that was going to matter.
OLBERMANN: Indeed, if there was an alternative to allied military action, to use that old familiar term, the memo suggests that the—Mr. Bush, at least, might have been looking for ways to provoke Saddam Hussein into starting the shooting. Is that correct?
MITCHELL: Well, one of the most provocative things—and that‘s the right word to use, I think, for this, in this memo is the—David Manning, the now British ambassador, formerly national security adviser to Tony Blair, present at the meeting, saying that at one point, President Bush suggested painting a reconnaissance plane, a spy plane, an American U-2, in U.N. colors, hoping to provoke Saddam Hussein to fire at it, so that then they could justify invading.
OLBERMANN: Is there anything in that memo, or anything previously from the Downing Street memos or any of the other paperwork that has come out of these series of meetings between Mr. Bush and Mr. Blair in ‘02 and ‘03, that suggests that either of them had an appreciation, had even a glimmer of just how difficult the aftermath of what they intended to do in Iraq might be?
MITCHELL: Well, that‘s where this memo is really illustrative, because, in particular, Tony Blair asks about the aftermath, and Condi Rice steps to the plate at the meeting. She was then national security adviser, and she says that they‘ve done a lot of planning on that. Well, actually, the State Department had done a lot of planning on it.
But 10 days earlier, all that work had been taken away, and she had acquiesced in the decision by the White House to put Don Rumsfeld and the Pentagon in charge of postwar planning, and nobody read the thousands of pages that State Department analysts had written about it.
And, in fact, the president then comes forward at the meeting, according to Manning‘s memo, which has not bee contradicted by anyone, it was confirmed to me today by more than one source. And the president steps forward and says that it was going to be basically easy. The whole implication of his comments was that it was going to be quick, that it would be decisive.
And, of course, the march to Baghdad was. But they did not anticipate the insurgency, did not anticipate how difficult it was going to be. And Blair went along with Bush on all of it.
Countdown, March 27 (transcript via MSNBC)
Yeah, the only reasonable conclusion would be that after looking at all the evidence, Bush never lied about anything and was totally straight with us, the people, and our allies, about his intentions and the basis for them.
Does everyone get that?
It’s the only reasonable conclusion.
Any other conclusion is just unreasonable.
Which is why about 23% of Americans are now saying that the president is accurate in his descriptions of the situation, and why most Americans believe that he misled them in the runup to war.
See, that’s the thing … this is why we want democracy in Iraq: Because we can’t seem to do it right in America.
jg
Is that why we ignored the UN? I doubt it but its certainly the wingnuts story.
So? He believes he shouldn’t be under sanction. Of course he’s going to try to undermine tham. They weaken him and he doesn’t want to be weak. This ain’t rocket science Brian. Stop trying to put evil intent into the natural reaction of a leader of a country.
So he had plans. Did anyone doubt he had plans? Is having a plan cassus belli? We all know he wanted nukes but we were told he had reconstituted the program since he tossed out inspectors in 98. Turned out to be bullshit. After the inspectors were let back in and reported he had nothing and no ability to make anything just about every other country in the world said there was no reason to go to war. He was contained, he was marginalized. He barely had control of the part of the country not under a no fly zone. It took us 2 weeks to knock him over because his own army wouldn’t fight for him yet you still prop him up as though he needed to be taken out because he was so threatening. You think this because you’ve convinced yourself the only people saying this was a waste of time are out to get Bush and the republican party. You feel its just partisan politics. Why don’t you see the defenders of Bush as partisan? Why are they bastions of truth instead of agenda driven partisans?
Brian in Oakland
The administration is’nt getting rid of the bullshit. It’s getting a new shovel.
Great!
Brian
No, it’s not. But I am not prepared to make excuses for Saddam Hussein, which you appear to be doing in your comment. And yes, a plan is a reason for concern. I’d rather not wait to find out if he meant it or not. Same with present-day Iran. Sure, Ahmadinejad is a nutcase, a provincial peasant who miraculously got elected to run a country, but should we not take his saber-rattling seriously? Apparently, some people do, and are making plans accordingly. This is high stakes poker, man. Not for the light of heart.
And let me be clear. I support Bush in a general sense, but I also believe that he’s too laissez faire with the Iraq war, and his admin has done things that are incredibly negligent in the war’s execution. However, we’re there, I can understand why we’re there (for reasons that have nothing to do with WMD), and I don’t expect a president to be comletely forthcoming on issues when it comes to protecting the country. He has to hide his cards sometimes, which means deliberately deceiving his own people. I’m not saying that he has to come out and deliberately and flagrantly LIE to his people, but the media is far reaching, and we can’t tip our hand on security matters.
Brian
They could take a major step by kicking Helen Thomas out of the press room.
Pb
ppGaz,
They did it, too. They really did it. Fuckers.
That’s right, folks, Saddam was such a threat that he couldn’t be baited into starting a war, so we had to just bite the bullet and start it for him. What’s wrong with this picture: why couldn’t an allegedly warmongering crazy authoritarian dictator be baited into starting a war?
Andrei
You are what they affectionately call “dead money” in poker.
You’ve been played, and better yet, you keep coming back to the table thinking you know how the game is played when basically you’re just an ATM machine for the sharks who know the game. You are doing the dirty work for the GOP Brian. Even when that work is totally against what you think you stand for. Wake up already.
Repeat one last time: The Iraq War was a ***preemptive*** war sold on the basis that Saddam was a clear, present and ***immediate*** danger to our national security. Period.
That was simply not true. The sooner you admit that, the sooner everyone can get to the real business of how to fix the bullshit you keep trying to peddle. I know it’s not your bullshit… you’re just playing cheerleader for a sports team even though there’s not real game in politics unless all one is interested in is unbridled power.
jg
I’m not making excuses for Saddam. Why would I? You need to provide a reason for me to make excuses before accusing me of that. All I did was point out the flaws in your reasoning. Which you addressed by saying a plan is reason for war. Which is bullshit. There has to be more than just a plan, there has to be overt acts in furtherance of the plan. There wasn’t. He didn’t have the ability to carry out any plans, they were all fantasies. You’re the one making excuses, for Bush. You’re fabricating threats and exagerating minor facts to make a case for what we did in Iraq (just like Bush). We didn’t NEED to do it, we CHOSE to. Do you see the difference?
You cite Iran as an example but neglect to mention our relations with Iran had warmed up a little until Bush called them part of the axis of evil. Of course they’re getting restless now. Wouldn’t you? We essentially threatened them and you’re worried they’re preparing for us? You see that as an aggressive move instead of defensive? Bush threatens them and they start to knuckle up, you see that and say Bush was right to say they’re a threat. And around we go.
Could someone give Brian the definition of cassus belli, he seems to think it means cause for concern.
Brian
I know what it means, and it’s spelled casus belli not cassus.
It is a provocative act that leads to war.
The Other Steve
Quit picking on Brian. It’s not his fault he was home schooled by Soviets and doesn’t know the difference between Fact and Propaganda.
Brian
May I suggest, ever so calmly, that you are buying Bush’s PR maybe a little too much? The admin has made a terrible case for this war. Every belief I have about the war has practically nothing to do with Bushco as the source. It comes from voluminous reading of books and essays on Iraq, the Middle East, and the machinations of international politics.
Since I read one article for you today (Mr. Furious’s submission), I’ll let one articulate former liberal make the case in ways the administration should have.
Or will you just dismiss him as a drunk?
jg
It is a provocative act that leads to war.
Close enough. Iraq didn’t do anything to cause us to go to war with them. We exagerated facts and invented others to justify our choice to go to war. There was no provocative act.
Doesn’t it raise any warning flags in your head that the people in this country who have been pointing out this fact are branded as traitors? Is that the reaction you expect from an american gov’t? A gov’t of the people yet the people are told to shut up unless they support the administration. I used to get the same reaction in sunday school when I asked questions they didn’t have answers for. Why can’t a person love this country and be disatisfied with the current leadership?
The Other Steve
The Liberal reasons for this war were what I always considered to be the weakest arguments for war.
Obviously the Bush Administration did as well, which is why they pumped up the WMD claims.
and yes, Hitchens is a drunk.
Pb
If the shoe fits. However, I think that dismissing him as a drunk is much more polite than the alternative—actually taking him at his word.
Brian
Hey, I was schooled in Santa Monica, CA, aka the Peoples Republic of Santa Monica, aka Home of the Homeless. It’s as fascist a place as you can find, but in a pro-liberal sense. It was a helluva better place before lib’s got power. Now, you can’t have breakfast downtown, or go see a movie, without homeless people physically threatening you or pissing/shitting nearby.
All because of the compassion!
Pb
Obviously, they can’t be. America is now a nation of traitors—either you’re a traitor to Bush, or you were a traitor to Clinton, or you’ve been living in a hole for the past 14 years and therefore are a traitor to your country for not participating. Or something.
Brian
Yes, it does, and I don’t appreciate it when the WH does that.
On the other hand, it’s hard to look at the Leftist drumbeat of coverage on blogs, the media, from politicians, and from special interest groups, and wonder if the Left doesn’t really side with the enemies of our country.
Brian
I thought I’d pass this along for amusement sake. LGF got in a lather over Borders Books, and their CEO shot back in a very colorful way. I applaud the guy.
jg
No. I didn’t know he was an alcoholic, doesn’t matter anyway. Drunks can think IMO.
I was very aware that France and Russia were against thewar for selfish reasons. I knew that Saddam was exploiting that. I also knew he would restart his program. Problem is Bush said he HAD restarted his program, he would have a weapon in months, we have to go now. It was all a lie. He knew that wasn’t true but told us the stuff that would make us afraid. No one in this country would support an invasion based solely on freeing oppressed people. Yet thats what you’re trying to tell us now, thats what we did.
Fedayeen Saddam? If they were connected to the jihadi movement they would have taken out Saddam eventually. He can’t be in power in their future world, he knows this. His connections to terrorism were self serving, to keep the muslim street on his side when we come for him, not to be the leader of the jihadi movement. His minor terrorism connections had nothing to do with 9/11, which is really the only reason to keep saying he had terrorism connections. To make the 9/11 connection happen in our heads. If you can link him to terrorism then its a short walk for the people over here who don’t know anything about terrorism except that we were hit on 9/11, to believe Saddam was behind it. If he was into terrorism, he was behind 9/11, its that simple, right? Al Qaeda is in Iraq now, then Saddam is linked to 9/11.
ppGaz
Nobody could have anticipated that Brian would play the Christopher Hitchens card.
That settles it, then. Brian, and Bush, are right.
The American people are wrong. The war is good, and will have a good outcome.
Democrats don’t have a plan. They should immediately get one, like Bush’s plan: Some future president will have to figure out how the war ends.
You gotta hand it to these guys, people! The hubris and the in-your-face-fuck-you quality of it …. that’s the real strength of America!
Thanks, Brian. We’re done here. Close the thread, shut down the blog. Turn off the cable tv and send Congress home. The Bushies win! It was a fair fight! We gave ‘em a run for their money, but they beat us fair and square!
Okay, lefties, we’ll meet in the park on Wednesday to talk about our next project, the turning of melting glaciers into giant snow cones that can be towed to coastal cities and sold for millions just by adding a little syrup!
Thanks, everyone! It’s a wrap here!
jg
Thats just stupid. You appear to be intelligent so I don’t know where that comment came from. WHY the hell would the left want to side with people out to destroy america? It makes no sense. Its just a made up reason in your mind to shut them out of your reasoning. You manufacture a reason to ignore them, a stupid reason.
The opposition isn’t evil. They aren’t agaisnt fighting terrorism. They just disagree on the way to go about it. Stop calling them traitors or lobbing even dumber shit at them and maybe you’ll actually hear them.
Thre is a few groups in this country who want to overthrow our type of gov’t. They do fund protests and demonstrations. But the people who show up to protest or demonstrate don’t actually represent the views of the people who provided the funding. They’re pissed and want to vent and someone has provided a means to do that. You can take the easy route and say the protestors are just a bunch of america hating commies since the american communist party provided the porta-potties or you can realize the protestors are being used by the american communist party or even better you can realize they are being used, ignore that, and just concentrate on what the protestors are pissed about. Don’t find ways to be dismissive, thats too easy and exactly what the administration wants you to do, which of course means you’re being used. :) Fun ain’t it.
Andrew
You know, maybe I should stop switching back and forth between CNN and the Discovery Channel late at night when I’m falling asleep on the couch . . .
What? Did Helen build a motorcycle with Scotty’s left over parts?
The Other Steve
Everybody involved in the debate was doing so for selfish reasons.
Including the US.
The question is, which selfish reasons? Was it for our national security? Or was it so a bunch of Bush’s buddies would get reconstruction projects?
Tim F.
Wingnuttery is twice as irritating when it tries to sound reasonable.
ppGaz
I’ll tell who are the enemies of the country, Brian.
People who try to turn legitimate opposition to the governmnet into “support for the enemy.” Those people are the enemy, because that kind of crass demagoguery is not compatible with a democracy. When opposition is verbally abused by that kind of crap, democracy stops working.
In case you don’t get what I’m saying, AFAIC you are the enemy of my country, and I have no respect for you whatever on any subject, until you renounce that stupid statement and apologize for it. You suck. You are not welcome in my country. As far as I am concerned, you are not an American and you do not support American principles.
I will no quarter whatever to any asshole who does what you are doing here, not today and not ever. You can stamp your feet and feign outrage all day, they can ban me from the frigging blog, I don’t care. You suck, and you deserve to be told you suck.
jaime
Yeah, Santa Monica is a HORRIBLE place to live and work. All that free parking, and they won’t let you throw your cigarette butts into the sand. The commies.
I worked there for two years and never was threatened. Maybe if you stopped shouting “Get a job you fucking hobo” They’d leave you alone. You can thank The Glorious Ronald Reagan for the homeless situation. Cause and effect. Reagan releases folks from mental institutions and slashed budgets for programs for the indigent, homeless guy shitting while you eat.
Pb
Brian,
That’s pretty amazing—the LGF crowd can’t even do a proper April Fool’s joke without screwing it up.
Brian
Politics is self-serving. That doesn’t make their actions any less serious. The Saudis make it possible for radical Islamists to practice their craft of terrorism, providing a sort of base of operations and a foundation to preach hate. They do this for self-serving reasons. Doesn’t make it right. And it is part of the reason we’re over there, IMO. We would not attack Saudi Arabia for obivous reasons, but they thought, along with much of the Middle East, that we lacked the backbone to take any serious military action. We proved them wrong.
I have never called anyone a traitor, but the perception exists that the Left, by virtue of its actions(NSA “wiretapping” called illegal, a Talib being recruited into Yale, claims of “no evidence” of terrorism or connections to terrorists, highly selective coverage in the media to maintain an anti-war narrative, etc.) is against the U.S. winning this in any way.
If the Iraq war can be successful, and change the Middle East, if there’s maybe a 10% chance of this happening, isn’t it worth it?
Andrew
2500 dead Americans and half a trillion dollars for a 10% chance?
Does this scale linearly? Can we spend a trillion, lose 5000, and get a 20% chance? Would the family of a dead serviceman killed in Iraq kick the living shit or the everlasting shit out of you for asking such a god damned stupid fucking question?
ppGaz
What do you think the American people are telling you in answer to that, Brian? Maybe you should try reading an American newspaper once in a while to keep up?
The American consensus right now is clearly “no.”
When did you decide that the American people aren’t capable of governing themselves, but the Iraqis are?
Brian
I almost fell out of my chair laughing just now. Santa Monica is a shithole downtown. Homelessness is a fact of life, but Santa Monica’s gov’t treats them with equality like they’re some oppressed minority. And the rent control issue, which lasted about 20 unfortunate years, was a practice of socialism that predictably failed.
And, where the heck are you talking about?.....free parking?? Not downtown. Unless you’re talking about those old structures surrounding the Promenade where you’re lucky to find a spot and get 2 hours free, like any other shopping district might have. Otherwise, you pay through the nose.
Brian
I do, and that’s the problem. LAT and NYT. That’s also possibly why Americans are so against the war. It’s a combination of the reporting in the media, and the poor explanation for the war that the admin is giving them.
Like you care. Was WWII worth the lives lost? Apparently, you would say not. You can’t measure it that way, but then again, I doubt you’d fight for anything.
tBone
Nah, I can’t imagine Scotty being recycled as a motorcyle. A moped, maybe – a pink one.
Andrew
WWII? You’re like the pretend-but-also-really-ignorant pricks at Red State who say that the Democratic party is bad and racist because they started the Civil War.
But you got me. I actual do not care at all about the lives of soldiers or the use of tax dollars. Really. Unless they’re being used to install world government by the UN, of course. I am a callous and cruel bastard without your enlightened “10% chance? Worth EVERY DEAD AMERICAN” philosophy.
Pb
jaime,
Apparently an enormous 1.1 percent of Santa Monica’s population is homeless—about the same proportion that you might find on average in all of California.
Paddy O'Shea
Santa Monica? I had an apartment there when I was between marriages. What a great place to get laid.
And Brian complains about the place?
Figures.
tBone
Good point, Brian. Obviously Saddam was every bit as dangerous as Hitler, even if these lily-livered libruls won’t admit it.
Santa Claus
What about the War on Christmas? Damn it, I have dozens of elves dying face-down in the polar muck of the trenches EVERY FUCKING DAY while you pansies bicker and squabble about some war on some assholes in the desert somewhere who aren’t even CHRISTIANS. Fuck them, and send me some help! I’ve been fending off Canadians and Eskimos for three years now while down in the U.S. you let those secular humanists rant and rave and incite hatred EVERY HOLIDAY SEASON. You think that doesn’t have consequences? Who do you think incited the Canucks and the Eskimos against me, the polar bears? It was secular humanists who started TWOC, secular humanists who think Christmas should be destroyed. Not only do you not send me air support to fend off their minions and keep my toy shop supplying Christmas joy for your children, you let the warmongers who egg this conflict on continue to incite their adherents unabated.
If you really want me to win TWOC, you’ll clamp down on anti-Christmas commentary in the American media. If the American people REALLY love Christmas, they’ll send troops and airplanes right away.
Freedom isn’t free, even for Santa.
Brian
Such high standards for quality of life. “Hey, never mind the parks, the education system, the crime rates, the cost of liveng. Tell me….can I get me some pussy from some chicks who wash once in a while?”
Pb, the point is not about the amount of homeless, it is how they are regarded there. The citizens of S.M. are pissed about it. It’s disgusting how they have to live amongst the homeless because the city won’t deal with them. Other cities dump their homeless in S.M. (as well as downtown L.A.) because they’re so inviting to them.
SeesThroughIt
I damn near got my head torn off for mentioning that offhandedly to the friend of a friend several years ago. I sure as hell wasn’t ready for that one. I was meeting this FoF for the first tme, and the three of us were having amiable chit-chatty conversation, and then BAM! Pretty crazy.
Brian
Santa must be ppGaz.
Santa Claus
Don’t make me coal your ass this Christmas, son. I’m on your side here, not the Godless Commie asshole riffraff that meander around this place egging on the wrong side in the War.
Ho ho ho, you moonbat lefty motherfuckers! Yes, you know your names, bitches.
ppGaz
Right, Brian. What did you say the combined readership of those two papers was? That’s conventional, and online, please.
If it’s over two percent of the population, I’ll buy you lunch.
Get serious, man.
ppGaz
Well, I was born there. St. John’s Hospital. Or as I call it, The Shrine.
Brian
Forget Bush for a minute. Here’s a guy, a “respected” professor, advocating a 90% reduction in world population through the introduction of the ebola virus. And his audience loves it!
Brian
Sorry, Santa. I thought you were a Lefty doing some role-playing for a minute. Glad to see that such a generous Christian like you has his head screwed on right.
Any chance we can get the moonbats rounded up to assist you in the labor of toymaking? You know, give the elves a chance to delegate for once?
Brian
How Christian of you. I was born, as was most of my family, at Santa Monica Hospital, closer to the surf, dude.
ppGaz
Bless you for saying so.
Santa Claus
That’s okay, Brian. You’re a good boy. Always have been.
Sounds good to me. That was the deal I had going with Stalin during WWII when all those Nazi prisoners showed up in northern Siberia. When will you Americans get off your asses and start showing some initiative along the same lines?
Again, though, my elves are a lot more concerned with winning TWOC. To help me with that, you’ve got to start jailing the war’s instigators. (I.E., all the moonbat asshole leftists who think saying “Happy Holidays” is anything other than a war-cry against me.) The irony of my enemies being forced to toil in my toyshops, slaves of my servants, is entirely too delicious. You’re getting some extra toys this year for that one, Brian! Ho ho ho ho ho!
Drunk with milk-and-cookie lust,
Santa
ppGaz
This is THE definite link for replies having anything to do with those “Mexican flags” or “flags of another country” flying so offensively in immigration protests these days.
Wave it proudly, wave it often.
jg
Are you serious? Are you actually outraged at this professor or are you trolling?
ppGaz
Fox News Pwned by Feingold
Big Russ takes it to them.
We’re majorly loving this guy.
That’s right, I said “majorly.”
ppGaz
definite = definitive
St. John’s—where the stars are.
Brian
ppGaz,
Let’s note here that Vicente Bush is getting his pee-pee wacked by us conservatives for his election-year pandering to the Mexicans immigrant community.
Mexicans, unlike other immigrant communities before them, are less interested in being Americans that getting some money to send home. They’ve come here not for a better life, per se, but as a temp work solution. They don’t give a shit about this country, hence the flag waving and the anti-American rhetoric.
Santa Claus
Mind you, I should make it clear that my collaboration with Stalin was only during the period of 1941-1948, and ended with the Berlin Blockade. I do not endorse Lenin-Marxism, and all Christian German captives were released in 1949 with toy train sets and teddy bears. (The atheists and Nazis, however, still work for me.)
No nation which stands against the Union Jack will ever have Santa on its side.
jaime
That’s odd, I always find parking in those structures, and most of the shopping area parking charges a fee in L.A. What friggin Santa Monica are you living in?
Professors are supposed to say some wild shit. Most of it will be wrong. Did you defend Lawrence Summers?
Brian
Thanks, Santa. You da man. Maybe we can get together this winter and roast some lefty chest”nuts” over an open fire. They probably smell like chickenshit when burned.
Serious as a heart attack. why?
More like—Where the stars die.
Brian
He wasn’t a professor. If he were, he’d still be there, you know, with tenure and all.
Santa Claus
You’re not far off the mark there, Brian. That reminds me of this one time… Well, nevermind.
Oh, if only the Good Lord hadn’t forbidden me from telling the old stories about the way the Celts used to run things…
jg
Did you freak out when Agent Smith said the same thing in The Matrix? Lots of people have compared us to viruses, said we’re a threat to the planet. So what? He got pissed and essentially used the same technique Bennett used when talking about aborting black babies. You should read ‘Rainbow Six’ by Tom Clancy. Then again maybe you shouldn’t. You might think its a true story.
Brian
Ah, you mean headhunting? Going medieval on enemies? All that stuff that the Left might consider “intolerant”?
Sounds like you were around during the good times.
Ancient Purple
Oh really?
OH REALLY??
You are correct, Brian. I miss read Stormy’s initial line. My bad.
Now, when is Joe Wilson due to be indicted for outting his own wife as a CIA operative?
Any links on that?
Thanks!
Brian
Read the damn story. He’s advocating the use of an efficient virus to eliminate 90% of the population, not merely comparing humans to a “virus”.
Geez.
But thanks for the book suggestion. I’d like to pick up a good novel.
Brian
I don’t think he’ll ever be indicted. He’s too pretty for that, dontcha know. It would still be nice to see him grilled on a witness stand by someone more competent that Larry King.
jaime
Let us also note, that conservatives will be responsible for losing the Southwest in future elections, because many of “those people” vote and they prefer the party not planning to ship them out on boxcars Schindler’s List style.
ppGaz
Noted. And as of yesterday’s Sunday Talkapaloozas, 52-56% in favor of legal status for illegal immigrants …and climbing. Depending on the poll.
Looks like another perfectly good round of demagoguery is going to go into the shitter of history.
Brian
What bullshit. That rhetoric is not supportable, and only has a place in a leftist’s fantasy of cosnervatives as Nazis.
jg
Read the damn story. He’s advocating the use of an efficient virus to eliminate 90% of the population, not merely comparing humans to a “virus”.
I read the damn story and like I said he used the same thought experiment Bennett used when he said we could kill all the black babies and lower crime. Is there any other account of this happening or just the word of one guy who clearly missed the point of what was being said.
Pooh
Look! A Jackalope!
jg
You mean someone who will ask all sorts of irrelevant questions in order to trip him up? Someone who won’t ever ask about what was learned on the trip to Niger or what was reported back to the WH and when was it reported, someone who will instead ask if is wife sent him and if he ever voted for the lying Clenis?
ppGaz
Heh. Heh heh heh.
Thought experiment. Heh heh. Heh.
Like let’s kill all the righties and end the war?
Heh. Heh heh.
“Thought experiment.”
Hehheh.
Brian
okay, are we going to play coompeting poll numbers? If you’re going to cite them, at least link to them.
This gives a broad picture of American reactions to illegal immigration, and as you can see they take it very seriously.
Brian
You mean, will he face a defense attorney doing his job? Shocking! It’s…....well, it’s UNAMERICAN!
If there’s a witness stand he’s on, there’s always Fitz to let him tell his Balloon Juice-friendly side of the story.
Don’t worry your pretty little head.
Brian
That’s not what he said. That’s how you interpret what he said. Regardless, Bennett immediately said the idea was immoral, and completely out of the realm of seriousness.
Must you guys always be so intellectually dishonest?
The Other Steve
Then why don’t you move?
you could move to a Republican mecca like Alabama.
jaime
Not supportable how? Conservatives aren’t dehumanizing these people by calling them “a scourge” “aliens” “criminals” “terrorists”? Aren’t conservatives trying to make it illegal to give water to illegal immigrants dying of thirst. Haven’t conservatives been trying to cut off social services to illegal immigrants children of illegals? Don’t conservatives want to repeal the 14th amendment? Didn’t CONGRESSMAN Dana Roherbacher prefer using prison labor to pick fruit than hiring illegal immigrants (totally negating his ‘driving down wages’ argument)?
Not supportable my ass.
ppGaz
Without the link, which you can ascertain yourself in 30 seconds with Google, keeping in mind that I said I heard it ON TELEVISION where there are no links, and that I have no obligation to link anything for you ….
this blockquote from a story dated yesterday.
TEMPORARY WORKER PROGRAM: Some 56 percent of those polled said they favor allowing immigrants with jobs who are in the country illegally to apply for legal, temporary worker status.
Like I said, pull your nose out of your New Zealand Sheep Dating Service Newsletter and get up to speed.
Zifnab
http://www.eurotrip-themovie.c.....ndex1.html
Hey
Scotty doesn’t know,
That Fionna and me,
Do it in my van every Sunday.
She tells him shes in church,
But she doesn’t go,
Still shes on her knees, and…
Scotty doens’t know, oh.
Scotty doesn’t know-oh.
So don’t tell Scotty!
Scotty doesn’t know,
Scotty doesn’t know.
SO DON’T TELL SCOTTY!
We’ll put on a show, everyone will go.
Scotty doesn’t know,
Scotty doesn’t know,
Scotty doesn’t knoooooow….
The, parking lot, why not?
It’s so cool when you’re on top.
His front lawn, in the snow.
Laughing so hard, cuz…
Scotty doesn’t know,
Scotty doesn’t know.
ppGaz
That goes on top of my previous post.
And I will never, ever, provide you with a link. Do your own homework.
jg
I’m sorry he said abort all the black babies.
And the professor was angry and also I would imagine, aware that the people he was speaking to weren’t idiots who thought he was actually saying we really should unleash the ebola virus and kill 90% of the people on the planet.
jaime
Bill Bennett said as a statement of fact that aborting all black babies would lead to a lower crime rate. He also said that it would be a bitch to implement…oh and its morally wrong, too. It was a stupid thing to say, but totally expected from a degenerate pig gambler.
Brian
I did. I live in Culver City. You need to read further up in the thread to understand how we got onto the topic.
Duly noted. I’ll remember this next time you demand, DEMAND, that I supply you with data, HARD DATA!! Even if you hear a poll on TV, it can be found referenced on the Web.
Can you step out of the fever swamp and dry off for a minute?
Conservatives want the border and illegal immigrant issue addressed responsibly. If you can’t do this, then please step aside so that others can. If you take a moment and look at that poll list I linked for pp”I’m too lazy to do my homework”Gaz, you’ll notice that this is a concern of Americans, not conservatives. We’re in this together, and the issue can’t be split along party lines as easily as you believe it can.
Santa Claus
Memory lane. Those were the days, my boy. Those were the good ol’ days.
And how. Officially, I’m only 1700 years old, but if you check my Driver’s License (if I had one, fucking moonbat shitter government bureaucrat assholes!) you’d see I’m actually much, much older.
I once shoved a lump of coal up Caligula’s ass. But then when I figured out he was in to that sort of thing, I started laying off the Roman emperors for a couple centuries there. Sicko bastards that they were. Nowadays, they’d all be liberal Democrats. Even Commodus and Caracalla would be considered “Fighting Dems.”
Resolutely Tory,
Santa
Brian
Sure, it’ll probably get nowhere beyond the campus the guy works at, but the mere fact that his audience gave him a standing ovation is a little unnerving.
The guy’s comments will never see the light of day because? Well, because he’s not a conservative like Bill Bennett, that’s because.
RonB
They should ax Scotty before the press gives the guy a heart attack. It cannot be easy to have a job where you stand in front of people and feed them BS and stonewall, and if any press secretary has shown it, its Scott.
As for Plame, I think the truth is somewhere in the middle, that yes, the WH tried to discredit Wilson, by saying that his wifey sent him on the trip. I really don’t think they thought very hard about a revenge angle, but they were actively looking to smear Wilson and blew his wife’s cover in the process.
Brian
If the Dem’s stay on course, you can relive the good ol’ days. I’d buy a ticket to see that coal shoved up Howard Dean’s poop chute. And this time, we can put it live on the Internet.
The left has turned secularism into a religion, and once that’s happened, there are no rules. They’ll become as decadent as Caligula was, maybe worse.
SeesThroughIt
I’d just like to say that I still find the term “Clenis” to be quite funny. Carry on.
Pooh
I’m disappointed. Most of my brethren appear to be actually searching for said Jackalope.
jaime
How? Criminalization, deportation, and a 2000 mile fence. Is that responsible. I bring up very specific instances (Repeal of the 14th amendment, dehumanizing rhetoric, cutting of of social services) and you come back with “Conservatives want the border and illegal immigrant issue addressed responsibly”. What kind of vague chickenshit response is that?
The language on Right Wing radio, the engine behind this anti-immigration push, never focuses on the political side of this…about what policies toward Mexico we need to adapt to solve this problem. It’s always about getting “those people out of my sight” and how they wave Mexican flags at protests. That’s why Bush is Vincente Bush, that’s why every protest is seen as a giant Mecha rally, and the Senate bill is a joke to conservatives.
Brian
Jaime,
It’s clear there’s no way to have a conversation with you about illegal immigration. You conservative sterotypes are too ingrained.
A 2000 mile fence? Geez.
Brian
Going home to watch “Blue Velvet”. I need some weird escapism after you guys today.
jaime
The guy’s comment will never see the light of day because he said it on a campus and not on national television. Spare me the fake conservative victim bullshit. Just pull the nails out of your wrists and come down from that cross.
White, middle class, Christian, conservative Republicans, are the last group of people on the face of the Earth that should ever call themselves oppressed.
Brian
Bennett didn’t say his abortion comment on TV, either. It was a radio show with a tiny audience.
Jaime, you remind me of Cynthia McKinney. All racism, all the time.
Zifnab
Yes. So horribly unnerving that a man would bring up concerns about a high population density and the impending possibility of extreme viral outbreaks that has so often crippled societies older than our own.
Imagine if Pianka – the UT Professor of Evolution and Population aka Dr. Doom – was a French scientist standing before his collegues warning that the cities are unclean and the populations too high and that a powerful disease, like the Black Plague which would wipe out whole ships of people crossing the Mediteranian Sea, could be unleased on Europe to devistating effect.
Quick King Louis, silence that man before he tells us something useful. No applause fellow scientists! In a post 9/11 world, mentioning that bad things might happen means you want to see them/make them happen.
Haven’t Katrina and the US media in Iraq taught us enough times that predicting disaster is the primary cause of disaster in our own country and abroad?
Btw, it’s worth mentioning that Pianka’s main detractors just happen to also be ID scientists. Cause, you know, they’re credible.
jg
Why? Do you really think they all support wiping out 90% of the planet? Like there’s an underground organization looking to implement a doomsday scenerio and ride it out living in a compound in the rainforest or something?
Any chance they were applauding his anger about the issue?
jaime
Oh excuse me…a 700 mile fence.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12081172/
Colin Hanna, founder of the group Let Freedom Ring and president of WeNeedAFence.com has taken the concept of a border fence a step farther. He’s proposing a state-of-the-art fence 40 to 50 yards wide that he says would never allow an illegal immigrant to cross the border again.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/w.....nics_x.htm
Brian, it’s clear that no one can ever have a conversation about immigration with you because you are a completely ignorant fuck. You didn’t refute a thing I wrote, and only responded with vagueries. Or does “Conservatives want the border and illegal immigrant issue addressed responsibly.” the full extent of your knowledge?
RonB
“To your health?”
“Nah, let’s drink to somethin else.”
“Let’s drink to your fuck.”
“Very well, Frank-to your fuck.”
God that movie is so nuts in a good way.
jaime
.
Don’t be cute. He may have first uttered it on a tiny radio show, but he defended it and repeated it all over national TV.
What’s racist? Noticing how certain conservatives want to build walls along the border, make 11 million immigrants felons, deny services, repeal the 14th amendment.
I still don’t see you disavowing ANY of this.
Krista
I’m just waiting for Scotty’s tell-all memoir. I bet he’s already got some six-figure book deal advances lined up.
ppGaz
And you can’t look it up yourself, and I am obligated to LOOK IT UP FOR YOU because you are too fucking lazy?
So now we add laziness to your other excellent attributes.
I am going to have to use both sides of the paper for your case.
Zifnab
Maybe it’ll be called, “How to suck it up without leaving a stain on your dress.”
Andrew
Heineken? Fuck that shit! Pabst Blue Ribbon!
Perhaps a radical right winger will one day declare atheists should not be citizens. Because, you know, only the religious can be patriots.
Sojourner
Hmmm. Sounds like the Republican party.
Krista
Exactly. It’s a proven fact that human beings have no conscience or morals of their own, and only know right from wrong when so instructed by a religious leader.
ppGaz
See, you just do that for effect. But your problem, Brian …. may I call you Brian? .... is that you aren’t good enough to pull it off. You aren’t established as a spoofer. Mmm, in other words, you aren’t DougJ.
See, in order to believe something as stupid as that statement, you’d have to not know the difference between the secular and the religious. That’s the only way one can conflate the two. Religion in the context you are toying with requires the presence of faith … belief in the absence of, or despite, evidence. That kind of religion has nothing to do with the assertively secular. Even if one believes something that is wrong, if one believes it based on the result of an honest search for evidence, then one might be just temporarily wrong, because new information can result in a new conclusion.
But dogmatic allegiance to faith-based belief despite evidence to the contrary … that’s a horse of a whole different ballgame.
For example, you can believe that American policy will likely produce a stable liberal democracy in Iraq, if you want to … but all history of the region and the cultures there would point any reasonable person to a different conclusion: There is no history of stable liberal democracy in the Arab Muslim world. Insisting that one should believe it to be likely despite the historical evidence is magical thinking. Messianic thinking, in the case of our misguided policy there. Nothing is impossible, it might even come true. But it won’t come true and thereby prove out the evidence. It would have to come true despite the evidence that it is not likely to come true.
Do you see the subtle difference?
Nobody has the right to ask me to believe something that is not supported by facts and evidence just because they say so. Persuade if you can, but when persuasion fails … then, you’ve failed.
Secular? Religous? No, it’s all about one’s view of what is known and what is not known.
The kind of stuff you peddle … that’s just browbeating, proof-by-assertion stuff. Believe-it-because-we-say-so.
No thanks. And you can’t have it both ways. Don’t act like you are out for “facts” and then turn around and subscribe to a faith-based worldview whenver it is convenient for you. That just makes you look like a troll, honestly.
Par R
CYNTHIA MCKINNEY FOR PRESIDENT
GTinMN
..then right into..
You’d make it a bit tougher to call you on this shit if you didn’t immediately project your disowned twistedness onto the Evil Left in the very next paragraph. But then an utter lack of self-awareness IS a field mark of the common wingnut, so who am I to expect you to hold yourself accountable like an adult would?
Brian
Listen, smartass, I have said nothing here to deserve that. I have disavowed radical nonsense from my party all over this blog for months. I know what I believe, and have had civil dialogues with others here about immigration on this site, as recently as last week. Why do I have to disavow complete and utter fantasies about the beliefs of conservatives, just because you demand it? Who the hell do you think you’re talking to? What makes you think you deserve anything from me? If you can’t present yourself, and your position, responsibly and respectfully, why do you deserve any better from me? I think I’ve been as civil as possible with you, and since you still feel you have the right to slam me this way, then I have nothing left to say to you.
Humans, at least fair-minded, conscientious ones, do have the ability to separate right from wrong. In fact, I am one of these people. I am not religious, but you and others here keep assuming that I am, even though I repeatedly tell you otherwise. I don’t take my cues from a religious leader.
As for secularists who treat their beliefs as if it were a religion, they have no beliefs. Everything is relative. The is no objective “right” or “wrong”, as is evidenced by their bending over backwards to enable the worst among society. It would be “intolerant” to think otherwise. You have no compass, other than maybe sticking your finger to the anti-Bush winds and making your call based on where they’re-a-blowin’.
Brian
Get a sense of humor. It’ll serve you well in life. This is the problem with folks like you: an ability to laugh at yourself. You take your cause and your emotions way to seriously.
Brian
Fast fingers.
Correction: INability to laugh at yourself.
RonB
Brian, come on, stop baiting people with this stuff. You say something one could only expect from a paranoid evangel, and then let everyone fall into the trap and then you get to tell them theyre dumb for assuming.
No one is particularly concerned with secularism unless theyre overly religious, and if that is wrong, you are a rare animal and Id like to hear you expand on this concern. If you are not religious, aren’t you a bit secular yourself by definition? What is the difference between you and a Secularist, as you call them?
ppGaz
Yeah, Brian has shot his wad today. Revealed himself as a pretty boilerplate troll.
Too bad, he had a lot of potential as Righty Asshole or Darrell on Crack. But he just couldn’t keep his big troll mouth shut.
Ah well, another career down the drain.
Tim F.
Yep. Goes to show that John isn’t the only one who can stir a pot.
jaime
Brian, I had listed the rhetoric of the wingnuts that is coming to fruition with policy. The 700 mile wall, criminalization of illegals and those that aid them, and the hateful rhetoric of those in the forefront of this issue. Tom Tancredo, Hugh Hewitt, Dana Roherbacher and the lost…all of them want nothing less the harshest methods in dealing with the immigration issue.
I brought it all up, and you laughed it off at liberal nuttiness. All of what I brought up is reality as evidenced in the House bill, and you wash it away as a conservative stereotype. Then you claim racism. Why? What was written that was racist? Absolutely nothing. If you don’t disavow the people that do want to cart off 11 million illegals and their families, then you are part of the problem.
RonB
Back on topic…
I think it’s so funny, I laugh until I cry,
Just me and God, watching Scotty die,
just me and God
watching Scotty die