Who Needs Ann Coulter?
When you have Jane Hamsher:
In fact I’ll venture to say that there is absolutely no context in which this would be in any way amusing, but particularly not given Ben’s own frequent race-baiting comments and certainly not at a site like Red State which welcomes and hosts the exceptionally ugly worldview of the entire bigot brigade.***Bigot bigot bigot bigot bigot. The Post.blog is hosting a bigot. It doesn’t matter how many times Ben wants to take away with the left hand what he gives with the right, we know what he is and what he means. And as the hatred of brown people becomes the new gay, there is going to be a lot more of this disingenuous claptrap passed off by the folks at Red State Racists as someone else’s ideas, or just the views of their readers they are under some obligation to provide a home for.
It goes on, and all of it is designed to smear Ben Domenech as a racist. I could link you to hundreds of other smear jobs by Atrios and others, but why bother? Hell, half the things in that despicable Hamsher post were not even WRITTEN BY BEN. Even as I grow more and more disgusted and sick of the Republican party, I am still amazed at the gutter antics of the rabid left.
I don’t agree with Ben Domenech on nearly any social issue, but I have read thousands of his private emails at Red State (we have an Editor’s listserv of sorts), spoken with him (via AOL IM) dozens of times, and I have never seen or heard one shred of racism come from him. I think Ben Domeonech is wrong on a lot of things, but he is no racist, and I think the distortion of what Ben has written by Jane and others is outrageous and disgusting.
Jane Hamsher and those writing that sort of crap should be ashamed of themselves, particularly since the only reason they are writing it is because they don’t want Ben writing at the WaPo- not, after all, because what they are saying about Ben is true. Of course, that would require the ability to feel shame.
More here.
TexasMike
While I think the racism charges are overblown, I would be interested (especially since you’re an educator) in knowing your thoughts on the obvious instances of plagiarism that were perpetrated by Mr. Augustine.
sean
not a racist. but definitely a plagiarist and not someone who should be employed by any newspaper.
feral1
Umm,
You might want to look around the internets a little more before you jump on the Defend Ben bandwagon, or you are going to end up with a lot of egg on your face. There’s already more than enough evidence of plaigarism and inaccurate “reporting” to hang him with. His race baiting (calling Coretta Scott King a communist the day after her funeral) is just icing on the cake.
Marcus Wellby
The examples of plagiarism are blatant and the fact that this doofus thought he could get away with it indicate that he is either painfully stupid or completely unhinged.
OCSteve
Racist? OK. Let’s look at the first FDL post about all this (by Pachacutec):
In a rant about someone else being racist. I’m guessing irony is lost on the echo chamber over there.
Pb
Yes, but how many of those did he write himself?
Yeah, yeah, normally that’d be total snark, but by this point, it’s half-serious…
norbizness
On this specific subject, the use of a old John Birch Society canard by a privileged little twit on the day of a great civil rights leader’s funeral (shit, even I spoke well of Reagan for a few days), I would simply point everyone to the writings of Doghouse Riley.
Ancient Purple
Jane may be absolutely wrong stating that Ben is a racist. On the other hand, Ben certainly deserves a dressing down for referring to Coretta Scott King as a “communist.” That allegation was made against every prominent black leader during and after the Civil Rights movement by people like George Wallace and members of the Klan. It was their code word for lashing out at those uppity Negroes.
Martin Luther King, Jr.? Communist
Jesse Jackson? Communist
Etc.? Communist
I have little sympathy for someone who uses loaded words to describe people without paying any attention to history. Ben deserves his licks.
As for his plagiarism, I am absolutely amused by the foaming mouth defense that Leon is putting up over at RedState. First, it was that Ben only committed plagiarism once (which will, I remind everyone, get you bounced out of college). Then, it was that Ben did plagiarize, but it was only a movie review. Now, it is that Ben had some super double secret agreement with Salon magazine and PJ O’Rourke to use their work and claim it as his own.
Give me an effin’ break.
The man is a bona fide plagiarist and a stupid clown for the “communist” comment.
Fear not, however. I am sure that within the next 24 hours, someone will say, “Yeah, but he is only 24 years old
”
John Cole
They are not overblown, they are outright smears.
As to the plagiarism, I am not a defense attorney, so I am not in the habit of defending people when they do wrong- and that is what it pretty clearly looks like to me. It sure looks like he lifted some material, and he has to answer for that. I am not even going to delve into the plagiarism- Ben can defend himself. I will note with a little irony that all of the people screaming about Ben’s alleged plagiarism link freely and frequently to Sean Paul at the Agonist, an exposed and admitted plagiarist.
But the charges of racism are vile and disgusting and should be dropped. It is so typical- this is what the lunatic fringe of the left always does. For example, last summer- there are a million things going wrong with American policy in Iraq, and the Jane Hamshers of the left* spend a month accusing the soldiers of being war criminals for using WP weapons.
By spending so much time acusing Ben falsely of racism, they have given him the cover he needs- he can now spend all his time addressing the racism charges, which he can defend, rather than addressing the plagiarism issue, which looks a lot tougher to defend.
I gotta give those charging racism some credit, though. It takes talent to be that stupid and that scummy at the same time.
*** Update ***
Bob In Pacifica
Joe Conason calls him the love child of Janet Cooke and Donald Segretti.
Par R
It’s a cheap, sleazy, intellectually lazy smear. But that’s par for the course in the dishonest, ethically-challenged childish babbling that passes for leftist “debate” in this modern age and on this site. As someone recently put it, these days, liberalism is the philosophy of the ill-informed; the intemperate; the marginal.
Andrew
Come on you leftists! Poor Ben is not racist. He is multi-culturalism-challenged.
Right Wing Nut House » BEN DOMENECH MUST RESIGN
[...] [...]
Halffasthero
I am staying out of this fight. Frankly, there are more important things to lose sleep over. Whether he is a plagiarist or race-baiting or whatever, that is up to the Post to vet before hiring. If they screwed up, that is going to be their own fault. It would not have taken too much of an effort to check him out before hiring him. And if he is as bad as they are saying he is, give him a forum so that he can open his mouth and insert his foot. If the Washington Post is willing to be that forum, so be it. I am all for free speech.
Next subject.
DougJ
John, my original reaction was the same as yours, but Domenech said that judges were worse than the KKK in one of his posts. Not cool, especially when judges aren’t getting death threats right and left these days.
The guy has to go. They should have hired s more reasonable conservative blogger: like you.
McNulty
Maybe he studied under Molly Ivins.
and this is another one of those issues that shows what a giant, self-important circle-jerk the blogosphere is. I’m sure the average working stiff out there who is paying a mortgage and raising a family and doing this crazy thing called living life really give a flying fuck about Ben fucking Domenech.
OCSteve
BTW, what this is really about IMO, is a perceived loss of control. Remember the wailing from the left when the LAT’s Martinez fired liberal columnist Robert Scheer, even though conservative Michael Ramirez was fired at the same time.
Out of power in Washington, with the USSC losing its leftward tilt, the MSM and academia are pretty much the last bastions of the far left. Hilariously, they claim that MSM is actually conservative and a mouthpiece of the administration. But anyone who was awake through the last 2 elections knows better.
With that said, I agree that the plagiarism charges appear to be legitimate. Where the WaPo screwed the pooch was in failing to vet him adequately. It didn’t take a genius to predict the reaction that would be forthcoming from the left side of the blogosphere. And with Jane’s ax to grind against Jim Brady, you could even predict who would be leading the charge.
As Pachacutec correctly noted:
The racism charges were just the first volley, until they could dig in and find something more substantial.
Steve
I think Ben might actually be too young to understand that “Communist” was a code word used by the racists who opposed MLK. He probably thinks that when he calls someone a Communist, it means Communist. It’s still a fucking disrespectful smear to levy at a great woman on the day of her funeral, though. Was it right below one of those posts about how “the Left doesn’t know how to behave respectfully at funerals”?
Slide
Waaaaaaaa….. baaaaaaaaa somebody said something bad about a right wing blogger…. whhaaaaaa… bwaaaaaa.
These right wingnuts can certainly dish it out as anybody that listens to or reads Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Mike Savage, Bill O’Reilly, Michelle Malkin, Mark Levin, K-Lo, Ann Coulter, etc. etc. knows full well. These exquisite examples of civil discourse and moderation would never engage in personal attacks such as using terms like TRAITORS or suggesting that their opponents are anti-American.
You just gotta love Cole for his ever so selective outrage don’t ya? Hey guys you started this shit and now you are upset when the other side fires back? Sorry, the days when the left just turns the other cheek and trys to be “above it all” are long gone. You dragged us down into the gutter and now you’re complaining that you’re getting some mud on you? Lol.. that is truly precious.
MattM
I don’t think Domenech is a racist, based on what I’ve read. He’s an asshole and a plagiarist, and certainly the latter should preclude you from ever writing under the byline of the Washington Post. But racist is and over-the-top smear.
Like calling Coretta Scott King a “communist.”
Brian
Like most rants from Leftists, hers reads like its from a seventh grader. Very selfish, childish, hateful, and ignorant. Actually, it reads like most comments I see from Leftists on this site daily, come to think of it.
At least Coulter has sarcastic wit. I’ll take her over this wanne-be any day.
Mean Gene
Without putting on hip boots and wading through Domenech’s writings, I can perhaps understand defending him against charges that he’s a racist. He’s a fool, a knave, a liar, and a thief, but calling him a racist calls for more evidence that’s so far been presented.
That said, equating Hamsher with Coulter is silly hyperbole. Her comments may have been touched with hysteria, but that doesn’t put her in the same padded-cell as Coulter. Though that would make for a fun reality show…
Domenech is in a can’t-lose situation. The more he gets pilloried by the left (and the middle, and people in general with functioning brains) the more his profile rises on the far-right. If the Post fires him, he becomes a wingnut martyr, a truth-teller muzzled by that dastardly liberal media. Even if video evidence establish that Domenech enjoys, oh, devouring live kittens, he will be forgiven all his trespasses. How soon before he has his own show on Fox or MSNBC?
If he hangs on to his job, with each column he splatters another pail of dung on the reputation of the Washington Post, that bastion of blue-state bastards. The Right won’t have to lift a finger to discredit the Post, as the Left hurriedly cuts in line. Domenech’s influence is already apparent—ombudsperson Deborah Howell suddenly isn’t even aware that the Post has an online presence. Complaints? Not in her baliwick. If it’s dot.com, she’s dot.gone.
McNulty
I swear some of you people were either born yesterday, or you’re just flat-out stupid.
zzyzx
John – that’s not a property of leftists though, it’s a property of partisans in general. The religious branches of the right are pretty scary too, as they gloat about how they plan to return to a time when anyone who dares to engage in a sexual activity they wouldn’t do would be punished.
Then again, I remember the people who used to go to Dead shows in the south for the sole (or is it soul) intent of screaming at people for the nerve of liking a different kind of music than they would. I always wondered why they thought that attacking people would bring them to their church instead of making them more united in their opposition to Christianity. If their goal was to convert people, it was definitely backfiring.
feral1
Li’l Ben may or may not be a racist, but it is not unreasonable to come to that conclusion after he calls CSK a commie the day after her funeral.
I mean that is a lot more evidence of racism, than Cole has for his Xenophobia charge against people who are concerned with the UAE/China national security issues.
ppGaz
We refer the honorable gentleman to the NAME OF THIS BLOG.
John Cole
When you find me quoting them approvingly, defending them, or repeating their charges, maybe I will listen to you. Until then, back to the corner with you, Slide. And please try not to drool on yourself.
Slide
well, you really showed me with that scathing rejoinder.
Pb
John Cole,
False. Heck, I’ve never even heard about him before, much less linked to him.
Andrew
So, what do we think will turn up if we Google “site:redstate.org augustine blacks”
Anyway, this is some rich stuff from Ben:
But with all that cut and pasting, sometimes little things can get in the way if you’re only reading the lefty sites… things like facts.
ats
“the MSM and academia are pretty much the last bastions of the far left.”
Well, with regard to academia, OCSteve could always take the place of that Taliban guy at Yale, or maybe just send in the matchbook cover and change his life.
Ancient Purple
Well, I, for one, don’t even know who Sean Paul is, so there is that.
Second, I have to confess that I am a bit taken aback by your ambivalence regarding the plagiarism, particularly because you are a college professor. You are, of course, free to ignore the issue, but I would think, just on principle, you would be a bit more outraged.
sean
if you ask me, Sean Paul sounds like he’s plagiarized Shaggy. or Snow. remember that guy’s music?? yikes.
Slide
thats not the point John, you may not quote them approvingly (I never put you in the same category as those that I listed) but you kinda take it for granted. Hey, rush is just being Rush. The right wing crazies can say just about anything they want and you don’t seem to get to riled up. Fine. That is your choice. But when you selectively seem to only have outrage when out of line comments are made by left wing partisans (like your Cindy Sheehan obsession) I think you are fair game to be called a complete fuckin hypocrite.
I think the left is far far less incediary than the right. By a long shot. A very long shot. So when I read something like this from you,
I just have to shake my head in bewilderment and wonder why we never hear of your amazement of the gutter antics of the rabid right.
Blue Neponset
I have to come to Jane’s defense. I don’t think she is trying to smear him. I think she genuinly believes he is a racist.
The Coretta Scott King Funeral diary over at Redstate is just plan disgusting, and Augustine didn’t seem to have a problem with it at the time. One person who did have a problem with it was Mike Krempasky. Krempasky’s comment in the King Funeral Diary is the one Augustine responds to when he says:
I think we can get a little pissed about this.
I think Domenech is simply a jerk, but he didn’t do much to disprove Jane’s racist accusations by calling Coretta Scott King a communist.
neil
Hell, half the things in that despicable Hamsher post were not even WRITTEN BY BEN.
This would be a novel defense: “I’m not a racist—I just plagiarize from people who are!”
neil
Oh, by the way, I also think it’s hilarious that the right-blogs are rising to his defense, when they spend half their time accusing people of treason and sedition.
If Atrios is a traitor, then Augustine is definitely a racist.
Skip
My my, aren’t we getting fastidious about blg decorum these days.
If—and I do mean if—Hamsher’s racism charges are over the top, could it be ascribed to three years of her and her compatriots being called traitors? I supect so; charges like that cause bad feelings.
But the final straw is seeing guys like Andrew Sullivan embracing the very position they once deemed traitorous, saying “my bad,” and expecting to walk away from it.
Not so fast, boys. People were wounded, voices silenced—and now you owe us a trillion smackers.
Slide
wow…the examples of plagerism are growing by the moment. Here is just a partial list.
To paraphrase Cole, I am still amazed at the dishonesty of the rabid right. Seems like the right lies, cheats, and steals with alarming alacrity.
McNulty
I just have to shake my head in bewilderment and wonder why we never hear of your amazement of the gutter antics of the rabid right.
I stand corrected. Apparently, you were born yesterday AND you’re flat-out stupid.
First off, most of the lefties that come here came here originally because so many lefty blogs were linking to John BECAUSE of his disgust with some of the gutter tactics of the right. So, there we have the born yesterday taken care of.
Second, your belief that Democrats have been playing by Marques of Queensbury rules up until little Ben Domenech came around definitely puts you in the stupid category.
Third, after talking about scathing rejoinders up above, and then resorting to the “oh yeah, how about your side” argument and not much else just further proves both.
McNulty
Quote above should’ve been block-quoted too.
Blue Neponset
Slide,
Right or wrong, John is defending his friend and in my book that is an honorable thing to do. Why don’t you cut him some slack and stop firing potshots at him?
John Cole
I am not ambivalent about it- I am not defending him against those charges at all. He has a lot to answer for, and HE is the one who should mount his defense and answer the questions that have been raised. I love how not attacking someone is now considered ‘ambivalent.’
What I am doing is defending against the racist smears leveled by Jane and others.
I think defending anyone, friend or foe, from false charges is honorable. I try to make that my own personal policy.
Geek, Esq.
Well, the fact that he’s a shameless plagiarist certainly makes his obnoxious viewpoints moot.
Why hire this chump instead of a legit Republican blogger?
M.A.
What bothers me most about this whole thing is the extent to which the MSM responds instantly to complaints from the right, but never to complaints from the left. The Washington Post has received constant complaints from the left about their pro-war slant, their fudging of the Abramoff scandal to make it look bipartisan, Bob Woodward’s administration suck-uppery, etc., etc. They never respond to criticisms from their left or even take them seriously. But let Powerline complain about Dana Milbank’s orange vest or Dan Froomkin’s fact-checking, and they jump. If the MSM only takes right-wing complaints seriously, and it seems that way, it’s going to drift further and further to the right.
I agree that Hamsher’s stuff is over-the-top, though comparing the rabid right to the rabid left, the rabid right is worse because of the blatant power-worship. (The most obnoxious thing about the Coulters and the Hewitts is the way they taunt Democrats/liberals with their own political powerlessness; I simply don’t recall lefties kicking Republicans like that after the 1996 election, or for that matter 1977-80 and 93-94 when Democrats had the whole federal government. It’s like righties worship power for its own sake.)
EL
For the record:
I have no idea who Sean Paul is, or what the Agonist is. After your post, I googled agonist, and it seems to be a blog, not a newspaper; which doesn’t in anyway excuse plagiarism, but is there a major newspaper giving Sean Paul a column? To me, the issue is a very prominent forum given to someone who is a plagiarist – not once, possibly accidentally, but several times. I don’t approve of plagiarism, and I’d hate to see the gravity of it diminshed.
For the racist aspect, I don’t know enough about Domenech to say one way or the other. But calling Coretta Scott King a communist is downright idiotic, and clearly on par with calling anyone you disagree with a traitor. I found his “excuse” interesting too – it was “an old comment” (from February 2006) and the Kings “worked with communist organizations in the 50’s and 60’s.”
MattM
On a side note, I wrote movie reviews for the student paper in college, too (and acted as Arts & Entertainment editor one summer). And the current RedState defense that “it was just movie reviews” kind of pisses me off.
Jcricket
I’m not sure John should hitch himself to box-turtle Ben so quickly. I do agree that not immediately abandoning Ben because some others “say so” is honorable. But I don’t think defending dishonorable people is “honorable” unless one is a defense attorney. Reminds me of the right-wing’s obsession with “staying the course” as being the ultimate way to show “leadership”. The whole idea that changing one’s mind = crappy leadership is just mind-boggling.
At any rate, It’s pretty simple for me. Hiring a rabidly partisan conservative writer who has a long history of plagiarizing articles is a stupid move on the WaPo’s part. That’s at the heart of the “true issue” here.
But what’s really interesting about this Ben thing is that it exposes so many aspects of the difference between the right-wing/left-wing of the blogosphere.
Ben’s clearly plagiarized a large number of articles. This should make conservatives abandon him post-haste. Instead, because they’re happy the WaPo hired a conservative writer, they’re ignoring something that’s at the core disqualifying someone to be a journalist. It’s weird how much they want to ignore this. John included. I don’t know many left-wing bloggers who rushed to ignore/defend plagiarism issues with Jayson Blair.
Ben’s made some pretty awful comments about people like Coretta Scott King. Are they racist? I don’t think so, but they certainly are rabidly partisan and insensitive. To me it feels like he’s more suited for talk radio than as a “journalist”. I totally understand why conservatives aren’t bothered by this, but he’s not a “counter-balance to Froomkin” in any meaningful sense. Froomkin would be criticizing a Democratic leader too if they were trying to spin their way out of every situation, facts be damned!
The right (of which John Cole is not a member) really has gotten to a point where any criticism of a Republican is “left-wing partisanship”, no matter how much the Republican in question is lying, dissembling, spinning or shading the facts.
There’s always two-sides to every story, and everyone is entitled to their opinions, but not their own facts. If someone says “The moon is made of green cheese” and other people say “No it isn’t, and here’s why” the latter group is right. Doesn’t matter how loudly the first people yell “GREEN CHEESE” and cite polls that the American public agrees with them. How/when Republicans abandoned “objectivity” and embraced relativism is beyond me.
Lastly, if Ben’s writing is a good example of conservative journalism, there’s a pretty shallow “talent pool” for conservative writers. John Cole would be a much better hire for the WaPo.
Stephen Colbert
The question to ask is whether or not this whole Ben thing was a set-up job by the WaPo to smear conservative bloggers on behalf of an outraged MSM?
M.A.
Also: the hiring of Domenech shows that the Post simply doesn’t understand the difference between a journalist and a party operative. Even if you assume Froomkin is liberal—and while he seems to be anti-Bush, that doesn’t make him a liberal—his column can in no way be considered a partisan Democratic column in the way that Kos or Taylor Marsh or Chris Bowers are partisan Democrats. But Domenech, their “balance,” is a Republican operative; his dad is a Republican operative; he founded a partisan Republican blog; his whole purpose is to elect more Republicans. That they can’t see the difference between this guy and Milbank and Froomkin—journalists who might at best have a certain ideological bias—is pathetic, and it shows how much “conservative” has become indistinguishable from “Republican hack.”
There are plenty of conservatives who are not in the tank for the Republican party. The Post should either hire an ideological conservative (as opposed to Hewitt-style Republican) or balance Domenech with someone who is openly partisan in favor of the Democrats (like one of Kos’s front-pagers).
Darrell
Just to be clear you lying sack of shit, John Cole is not complaining about just “any” criticism of a Republican, he is specifically complaining about dishonest racist smears on a Republican, a hateful smear the left uses too often
DougJ
John: if you really consider Ben Domenech to be a friend, you should urge him to resign. As much as I am amused by the whole thing, he is a real human being and should be spared further humiliation.
It was wrong of Domenech to plagiarize, call Correta Scott King a communist, compare judges to the KKK, and so on and so forth. But 24 year-old kids do stupid things. That’s why the Post never should have given him the blog.
I blame Jim Brady, not Domenech, who is really just a victim in all of this. That said, his record as a plagiarist should exclude him from ever working for a newspaper again. But it doesn’t make him a bad human being.
Slide
Were there any false charges leveled at Cindy Sheehan ya think? Did Cole’s personaly policy kick in and he felt compelled to defend her even if she were his “foe”, or did he pile on? Can’t quite remember. Can anyone help me out?
Oh.. and lets remember some of the charges made against her from the rabid right:
Hey, love or hate Cindy Sheehan, disagree with her politics if you will, but does she deserve to be treated in this manner? And did our defender of false charges, John Cole, rush to her defense? Yeah, right.
DougJ
Darrell and John: what do you think about his post comparing judges to the KKK? Do you really think that is appropriate in a climate where judges are getting death threats all the time. Here’s your choice: renounce it or own it.
Ancient Purple
John, you are misinterpreting what I was getting at and I apologize for not making myself clear.
I wasn’t expecting you to personally attack him, but you certainly could have been much more forceful with your general condemnation of plagiariam.
Your position is that Ben sure looks guilty, and he has to answer for that. That sounds more like someone taking a child to task for lifting a Hershey bar at the 7-11.
Like I said, just on principle, I would think a college professor would be a bit more pointed in his conversation on plagiarism.
MattM
WaPo’s “ooo, look at all the controversy” article today indicates that they were looking for a “social conservative.”
I don’t think they’re going to come knocking on John’s door.
Blue Neponset
It is, but I wouldn’t vouch for someone’s character unless I knew him fairly well. If all you know of Augustine is his e-mails, instant messages and his blog comments/diaries/stories then all you are doing is telling us what your opinion of him is, and your opinion doesn’t seem to be that broadly researched. By the same token Jane Hamsher is giving her opinion of Domenech based on his blog comments/diaries/stories yet you feel she is being disingenuous. It is true that she is making a serious accusation against Domenech with not all that much evidence but you have no evidence that her motives are to smear him.
Why is it ok for you to speculate about Jane’s motives but it isn’t ok for Jane to speculate about Domenech’s motives?
I cut you some slack because I thought Augustine was your friend but if you don’t know him that well then I don’t appreciate what you are saying about Jane. Call her an idiot if you want to or point out that she may be jumping to conclusions, but don’t accuse her of smearing someone after she clearly explains how she arrived at her conclusions.
If I remember clearly you weren’t to happy about people who were doing something similar to Jeff Goldstien a few days ago.
BumperStickerist
Based on the plagiarizing examples, the WaPo should replace Dommenech. Though, if John were given ‘Red America’ slot my hunch is that it would take about 30 minutes before examples came out about how John is a racist, mouth-breathing tool.
On the subject of newspapers and blogs, the Philadelphia Inquirer has a blog called ‘Attytood’ written by Will Bunch. It’s a self-described “Lefty” blog. He’s profiled here:
Blogging in Major Newspapers
Of course, the blogs he likes are these:
PHILLY/NATIONAL
Atrios
Rittenhouse Review
Suburban Guerrilla
Booman Tribune
All-Spin Zone
Philly (Dragonballyee)
Afro-Netizen
Rowhouse Logic
MyDD
Bad Attitudes
Billmon
CorrenteWire
iFlipFlop
upyernoz
Tattered Coat
Fables of the Reconstruction
Slacktivist
—————————————————-
So, it’s not like Will’s in any sort of echo chamber.
Will’s a trained reporter and was part of a team that won a Pulitzer Prize back in the day.
Interestingly, Bunch links approvingly to Jimmy Carter’s Blog Diary for Kos. If Will read the entry, he either missed the part where Carter advocates the exact opposite of what Kos does or felt that got in the way of just blurbing stuff out there.
.
Slide
what I said:
McNutty retorts:
I leave to others to determine who is stupid.
zzyzx
Two words for anyone who thinks that making up charges against someone is a sympton of leftism and not partianship – Vince Foster.
Ah for the Clinton days again.
BumperStickerist
Go back, Doug.
Read Ben’s original post about judges slowly and outloud.
ACCURATELY cut-and-paste it.
And then ask your question again.
.
Capriccio
In an ongoing effort to help JC down his road to Damascus, let me suggest the following: Let go of this lazy, tiresome habit you have of projecting all Leftiness onto any one person. No matter how hard you try, the Left, which is nothing if not diverse and disorganized, cannot be summed up in the thoughts and actions of any one person…be it Cindy Sheehan, Michael Moore or Jane Hamsher. Jane Hamsher? Ann Coulter? Are you kidding me? Jane Hamsher is at best a second tier blogger. If she published a book tomorrow, how many lefties do you think would take it as their sworn ideological duty to buy her book? How many guest appearances would she get on Clear Channel? What do you think her speaking fee would be at all those liberal colleges? Jane Hamsher? I wonder if Howard Dean even knows who she is. Instead of singling out Jane Hamsher to illustrate “the gutter antics” of the Left, why don’t you go to Hullabaloo and read digby’s thoroughly thoughtful, reflective piece on the same subject and maybe you’ll feel better about this road you’re on, and you won’t be looking back with melancholy eyes on poor, put-upon plagiarizing Ben.
Ancient Purple
DougJ, I will take issue with this. I know you are not excusing it, but dropping something like this in the conversation really muddles the issue.
He is well over the age of majority and has been able to vote, drink, sign contracts, etc. for several years now. He knows better and has to accept any consequences of his actions.
His age is irrelevant to the topic.
Skip
Darrell: ” Just to be clear you lying sack of shit, ”
Elevating the level of discourse, as usual. What’s up? Are things not going exactly as expected? Go back to the Iraqi border and sniff a flower and suck a sweet.
Slide
Ok…maybe he is not a proven bigot, but…
If this is true he must feel pretty bad right now, given that he has been found to have plagiarized countless pieces of writing, including work that he has published since college years.
Plagiarizing is stealing. It is also lying, because a plagiarist pretends to have written or produced something that is someone else’s work. Thus, Domenech appears guilty of both stealing and lying. He believes that his party is the party of moral and ethical values. Well, I guess we have found out what these values mean to him.
Enough sermonizing about this young wingnut. It’s time to sermonize about the Washington Post who hired him without using the miraculous Googling tool. Either wingnuts get a free pass in the Post or whoever was supposed to have checked Domenech out was sleeping on the job. Or perhaps the whole thing was designed as a great revenge against the horrible liberal blogosphere. Whatever the explanation, the Post is not smelling very good right now..
neil
Wow, is that the real Stephen Colbert? I know he reads blogs so it’s not far-fetched. Give us a shout-out, Stephen!
yet another jeff
Good times…good times. Does anyone remember when you could say somehing about someone, and if it was wrong, you were called “wrong” and not “a lying sack of shit?”
srv
If there’s one thing the Era of King George has taught anyone, it is that the ends justify the means and that shame is a quaint concept, just like the Constitution and Geneva Conventions.
Anyone defending this Era deserves whatever they get and worse.
Vladi G
Pretty rich coming from the guy who went out of his way to defend Mr. Cockslap the other day.
Darrell
It was an intentional hateful smear, a really ugly smear.. not just an innocent mistake. Can you understand that distinction?
canuckistani
The following sweet gems are attributed to Ben here:
http://stevegilliard.blogspot......oblem.html
.
.
It just happens that killing black babies has the happy result of reducing crime. I do not question the research or logic of Levitt’s argument. If a specifiable group is inordinately responsible for a social problem, it follows that eliminating a large number of people belonging to that group will reduce the problem.
Maybe it’s clumsy and humourless Swiftian satire, cooked up by a young twerp who thinks he’s smarter than he is. But I would look askance at any of my friends who wrote that and tried to pass it off as a joke.
Ancient Purple
But calling Coretta Scott King a Communist was just a simple slip of the tongue.
Right.
Vladi G
Better yet, project all leftiness onto the person that truly deserves it. Norbizness.
Pooh
Well, that didn’t taken long for John “done with the GOP” Cole to accuse “The Left,” monolith that it is, of ‘overplaying its hand’. Why do I feel I’ve seen this before?
Canuckistani’s quote seems to make the charge non-ridiculous. I can’t really pass judgment because A) I’m not at all familiar with BD’s oeuvre (beyond the fact that as a liberal, I am in fact evil, if I believe what I read) B) His oeuvre may or may not be his oeuvre.
Anyway, back to chucking bodies John, glad to help refocus you on your priorities. Wouldn’t it just have been easier to write a post saying “I hate Kenton Paulino” since that is really what this is all about anyway?
Darrell
Far, far less offensive than the racist smears thrown by the left at Coretta S King’s funeral:
Despicable as hell? You bet. But typical of the left
Thomas
Conservatives could avoid defending allegedly nice people from smears if they demanded some sort of intelligence and originality from their publications. I think I’m an okay guy myself, not prone to violence or cruelty, generally, but a lot of people would say bad things about me if I somehow ended up successfully passing myself off as a heart surgeon at Cedar Sinai.
Likewise, Ben Domenech, allegedly a nice person, is allowed to use a computer and ends up calling judges worse than the KKK and Coretta King a communist, a day after her funeral. Instead of being politely ignored, he seems to rise rung to rung, until he gets to the Post. The fact that this is possible would be equivalent to Cedar Sinai pulling me off the street, giving me a scalpel or whatever heart surgeons use, saying I’m a talented doctor until I believe it, and then permitting me to operate.
Slide
As a partisan liberal, I so hope that the Washington Post keeps young Ben around for a while. How great would that be? A right winger that steals and lies to advance his political agenda. Yes… Yes…. Please keep Ben as he is a emblematic of what the right is all about in the Bush era. Glen Greenwald, as usual, does a brilliant job dissecting the whole matter. Money quote:
Domenech has been skyrocketed up the movement ladder quickly because his father is a well-connected Busy loyalist and he has obviously learned the art of limitless and ethics-free political warfare. In many ways, he’s a poster child for the Bush movement. And the fact that WashingtonPost.com hired him to be one of their in-house bloggers in response to right-wing pressure, while his allies defend even his most indefensible conduct, is quite a case study of so many significant things..
McNulty
Hey slide, you dipshit, you said John’s side “started it”. You guys have only been screaming “racist”, usually with nothing to back it up, for forty years.
By all means, please point to the incident where it was John’s side “starting it”. I guarantee you I’ll be able to show something equally dirty from Dems before that.
I mean, maybe Dems are timid in whatever white-picket fence liberal haven you live in (so that you can call people racist while never coming in contact with any of them scary minorities), but here in Philly, they’ve always been pretty bare-knuckle.
Vladi G
You’ll have to forgive Darrell the serial liar. That comment that he quoted cut a little to close to the bone for him.
Andrew
Pooh, geez, poor Ben didn’t write that silly racist crap, he merely quoted it in its entirety. Sort of like saying “Some people think that John Cole is a hypocritical asshole, w.r.t. Domenech and Sheehan.” Hey, I didn’t say it. Someone else wrote that and I just quoted it.
But geez, give him some credit! He linked and cited the source!
Steve
Darrell clearly belongs to the new generation of Republicans, who believe that racism is long dead, that we would have total equality if only we could stamp out that darn “reverse racism,” and that unless someone flat-out says “blacks are an inferior race,” it’s a despicable smear to label them a racist. One of the reasons racists learned to talk in “code words” was so they could express wide-eyed disbelief at charges of racism. And when the KKK and their ideological brethren repeatedly slurred Dr. and Mrs. King as “Communists,” a code word is what it was. Whether Ben Domenech knew he was repeating 60’s-style code, I frankly have no idea.
The right-wing criticism of Mrs. King’s funeral was rooted in flat-out racism and I’m not ashamed to say it. I won’t say racism was the only motivation because clearly, some Republicans were simply upset that someone had the audacity to put their Dear Leader on the spot with a few pointed comments. But I really don’t care how many names Darrell wants to call me for saying it, the charge of racism is absolutely valid. Deny it all you like.
Pooh
It certainly is a novel defense to plagarism: “I didn’t write that nasty stuff”. It’s sort of the evolutionairy Instapundit – an approving link only approves of the good parts…
Perry Como
We Must Defend! We Must Attack! We Must Continue! We Must Be Contrived!
I love Redstate.
Slide
McNutty:
a) I never called anyone racist
b) I was a NY police officer for over 20 years, the majority of which time, was spent in minority communities.
c) you are obviously a major league asshole (big time as Dick Cheney might have said) and I feel no need to respond to your silly insults “dipshit”.
Ancient Purple
Please explain how your quote from Avarosis mitigates the fact that calling Coretta Scott King a Communist was a smear.
OCSteve
I’m glad to see there are plenty of right-wing bloggers calling for him to step down. No one is attempting to defend him at this point.
junkyardblog
michellemalkin
patterico
americanthinker
riehlworldview
don surber
Ben Domenech is a partisan hack who is too inexperienced and too insulated to be of much use to WaPo online readers. Terrible decision. Circle the wagons, bro
“I have read thousands of his private emails at Red State”
Maybe he should publish those because his posts come off as vapid
don surber
Perry Como Says:
“We Must Defend! We Must Attack! We Must Continue! We Must Be Contrived!”
Further proof that “big” bloggers are no different than the MSM elities they mock
Now I am going to close my eyes, hum the Florida State “Tomahawk” fight song and imagine John Wayne Cole ordering everyone to circle those blogs
Slide
hey, even Michelle Malkin “gets it”
But now the determined moonbat hordes have exposed multiple instances of what clearly appear to me to be blatant lifting of entire, unique passages by Ben from other writers. It is one thing to paraphrase basic facts from a wire story. But to filch the original thoughts and distinctly crafted phrases of a writer without crediting him/her—and doing so repeatedly—is unacceptable in our business. Some of the cases occurred while Ben was in college; he is blaming an editor for these transgressions. But at least one other incident involved a piece he wrote for NRO after he graduated. The side-by-side comparisons of these extensive passages is damning.
I certainly understand the impulse on the Right to rally around Domenech. But I can’t ignore the plain evidence. And the charges can’t be dismissed as “lies” or jealousy attributed to Ben’s age.
As someone who has worked in daily journalism for 14 years, I have a lot of experience related to this horrible situation: I’ve had my work plagiarized by shameless word and idea thiefs many times over the years. I’ve also been baselessly accused of plagiarism by some of the same leftists now attacking Ben.
The bottom line is: I know it when I see it. And, painfully, Domenech’s detractors, are right. He should own up to it and step down. Then, the Left should cease its sick gloating and leave him and his family alone.wonder when Cole will “get it”?
Darrell
Of course your not.. Because only right wing racism would explain their criticism of statements like these made at Mrs. King’s funeral:
or Jimmy Carter accusing Bush of being a racist at her funeral:
Carter also took a moment to drop a brick over the recent revelations that the NSA has been spying on Americans, without court approval or warrants, at the behest of Mr. Bush. “It was difficult for them personally,” said Carter, “with the civil liberties of both husband and wife violated as they became the target of secret government wiretapping, other surveillance, and as you know, harassment from the FBI.”
or this
Yet to Steve and so many other Democrats Republican racism is the only explantion for Republican criticisms. There can be no other reason. And he is not “ashamed” to say so. Do you people see how fucked up you truly are? Of course you don’t.. because you have no honor
Steve
I won’t say racism was the only motivation…
Yet to Steve and so many other Democrats Republican racism is the only explantion for Republican criticisms.
The only debate here is whether Darrell has a problem with reading comprehension, or simply a problem telling the truth.
Slide
Darrell stirring defense of someone who has been proven to be a serial plagerizer. Priceless. You can’t make this shit up.
Darrell
Here’s what you wrote Steve..
Unambiguous. You’re a scumbag Steve
jg
Steve all that matters is what he thinks you said. His job is to shout republican talking points and misrepresent the opposition. There is no reason to talk to him. He and certain others serve no purpose beyond giving this blog some rigth wing street cred. To keep it from descending deeper into the cesspool.
Darrell
I quoted Steve verbatim.
Darrell
that says it all.. and you can bet those lowlife sentiments are shared by most leftists, who do not hesitate to use racist smears
Steve
I’ll repeat myself.
I won’t say racism was the only motivation…
Yet to Steve and so many other Democrats Republican racism is the only explantion for Republican criticisms.
Does anyone besides Darrell not agree that Darrell flat-out lied about what I said?
Is anyone besides me shocked that Darrell would even show his face in a thread about plagiarism?
Darrell
I’m sorry, was there anything ambiguous about those quotes from you Steve?.. quotes taken in context
srv
He’s right, and he’s always original –
There can be no other reason. And he is not ashamed to say so. Do you people see how fucked up you truly are? Of course you don’t... because you have no honor
Brian
If the guy does resign because of this, take note of how prominent Right-leaning bloggers (i.e. Malkin, American Thinker) are taking him to task.
The lesson liberals should take from this is that we deal with our dirty laundry. We deal with it openly, honestly, and in a forthright manner.
Can the Right expect the same from the Left? Or can we expect the same circling of the wagons we’re used to seeing (remember Mary Mapes, Joe Biden, Ohio Rep. Sherrod Brown, Martin Luther King, Jr.)?
Truth is, the Right has integrity. The Left is possesed with hypocrisy, hatred, foul mouths, and, worst of all….no sense of humor.
Darrell
If you read John’s post, this thread is about leftist tendency to hurl dishonest smears of racism.. which is exactly what you yourself have done.
SeesThroughIt
Right the fuck on.
Basically, Ben is a plagiarist for certain and a smug dickhead who, by virtue of his connections thanks to dear old dad, thinks he’s much smarter than he actually is. And he’s got a very typical far-right-wing obtuseness when it comes to matters of race, which may or may not be intentional. I’m not entirely convinced we’ve got a smoking gun of racism here, but he’s certainly quite foolish and bass-ackward about it.
Steve
I won’t say racism was the only motivation…
Yet to Steve and so many other Democrats Republican racism is the only explantion for Republican criticisms.
Darrell
Oh we see Steve, on one hand you say say Republican racism wasn’t the “only” reason, and on the other hand their criticsm was “rooted in flat-out racism”. On what basis do you make that charge you lowlife?
Steve
I’ll just stick to the front page of RedState.org.
I could go on like this for hours.
Blue Neponset
Darrell,
Redstate.org’s own Mike Krempasky voiced reservations about that diary. Was Krempasky wrong too? The King Funeral diary was disgusting and in very very poor taste. That doesn’t mean it was flat-out racism but that diary was no paragon of racial tolerance either. For fucksake Blanton compared Mrs. King’s funeral to a “Def Comedy Jam”. Can you even at least conceed that that comment was, if nothing else, racially insensitive?
Steve
Oh we see Steve, on one hand you say say Republican racism wasn’t the “only” reason, and on the other hand their criticsm was “rooted in flat-out racism”. On what basis do you make that charge you lowlife?
First you can apologize for lying about what I said, and then I’ll explain to you where the racism lies.
Darrell
Steve, I quoted you directly, but you’re too dishonest to own up to what you wrote. It’s who you are. Anyone doubting this can re-read the thread for themselves
Pooh
Don’t hold your breathe Steve, Senators apologize to no man.
SeesThroughIt
I actually saw a right-wing blogger say, “Blacks aren’t slaves anymore, they’re allowed to vote…so what’s the problem?” Basically claiming that because Blacks are unenslaved and endowed with voting rights, racism has ceased to exist. Except against white males. It was so ridiculous, I didn’t even know what to say. I mean, when somebody honestly believes that, how are you even supposed to have a discussion with them? It’s like trying to talk about addition with somebody who believes 2+2=5.
Darrell: I see you’re still butt-hurt that people spoke uncomfortable truths at Coretta King’s funeral. You really need to get over it.
Jorge
From missing WMDS to plagiarizing Ben Ds, it amazes me how Michelle Malkin will call folks on the left moonbats for making statements that end up being proven correct. And I am especially amazed by her calls for folks to leave poor Ben alone when she is merciless in her attacks of those that disagree with her. Malkin has forfeit her right to call for civility.
As far as the racist comment – well, I can sort of believe that Ben D had no idea that he was using 1960’s racist code when he called Mrs. King a communist. However, I would hardly say that it is unwarranted that somebody might infer from the comment that Ben D is a racist. And considering some of the other quotes we’ve seen about Ben’s views of blacks and poverty, it might seem fairly justified to say that he has some racist tendencies.
Darrell
You see, to the scumbags on the left, smears of racism = uncomfortable truths
SeesThroughIt
I re-read it. Steve’s right and you’re wrong.
Par R
Slide and a few others here have stated that conservatives are more likely than liberals to slander and hurl nasty remarks/adjectives at individuals with whom they may disagree. Well, Duncan Black/atrios, otherwise known as Tiny Meat…an appellation given him by an early girlfriend in apparent recognition that his manhood could not even satisfy a toy chihuahua…provides one basis for evaluating Slide’s theory. Following are a few verbatim excerpts drawn from Tiny Meat’s site by Dan Morgan last year:
First, it is interesting that Tiny Meat seems to genuinely consider himself to be tolerant. To get a sense of his kind of tolerance, consider this Tiny Meat quote:
“I am just so tired of right wing assholes who equate disagreement with an attempt to stifle speech. It is obviously an admission that they are, indeed, full of shit, but shocked that anyone would dare to call them on it.
“You wanna debate? Bring it on. You got nothing but moronic hate.
“Disagreement is NOT an attempt to take away your right to speak. Only in your deluded insecure senstive pathetic little baby brains it that the case. You got something to say? Say it. But I’m gonna call you on it, bigotboy.”
Whew, now is that someone that you want to sit down with and have a civil debate on the issues of the day, or what? Clearly, a model of civility.
Well, once the debating starts, let’s see the example that Tiny Meat sets for the readers of his site. Keep in mind that he is among the leaders (for traffic) of left-of-center individual bloggers in the U.S., so certainly he would realize his example has consequences. So let’s get rolling on the list of quotes …
Setting the tone for debate by maximizing your sweeping stereotypes of your opponents:
“The people who voted George Bush and the Republicans into office this year didn’t do so because they were conned by a right wing asshole posing as a compassionate centrist. They did so precisely because he is a right wing asshole. Yes, the modern Republican party consists of nasty bigots and liars …”
How to characterize your chief blogging competitor:
“Glenn Reynolds, Fascist Hatemonger”
How to criticize a blogging competitor who happens to be gay:
“Andrew Sullivan works for racists AND homophobes (catch the tell-tale sign of clinton cock obsession at the end). ... nice money if you can get it.”
Daily reminder of your moral superiority to those that you disagree with:
“Fun Google hit of the day: republican hypocrites sucking cock.”
A basic method for disagreeing with someone:
“I hate George Will. Smug overrated hack.”
Denouncing NYT writer, Nick Kristof :
“... But, now that it’s all over, I can say – Fuck you Kristof, you human scum…”
More love for Kristof (apparently Kristof is a criminal of some sort … or a Republican):
“Yes, human scum Kristof is at it again.”
Raising the bar on respecting the office of presidency:
“No you asshole, you aren’t against leaks – you’re just against leaks YOU DON’T APPROVE OF you pathetic piece of shit.”
Elevating commentary on the presidency as well as mentally handicapped people:
“I think someone asked in comments recently something along the lines of “Who are we going to see tonight? The angry frat boy or the retarded chimp. I think the answer is, “angry retarded chimp.”
Hinting that conservatives make natural child molesters:
“Jeebus, there are days when I feel like I could devote this entire blog to right wing assholes who get caught with kids. ”
When in doubt, just go for hate:
“Reagan was not “beloved by all.” He was loved by some, liked by some, and hated by some with good reason.”
How to disagree with a religous leader’s point of view:
“Kerry’s a regular mass-attending Catholic despite all the crap the media heaps on him for it because some asshole Bishop somewhere hinted that maybe he shouldn’t be allowed to eat the wafer.”
Enforcing political partisanship:
“It just came to my attention that Dennis Kucinich was one of the ones who voted to begin impeachment proceedings against Clinton. Screw you, Dennis.”
Revisiting Junior High School style name-calling:
“cock-headed manwhore …”
Thoughts on religous inclusiveness on the Left:
“I’m tired of liberalish Christians telling me it’s my job to reach out to Christian moderates who feel that “the Left” is hostile to them. Screw that.”
Final quote – recall that Tiny Meat considers himself tolerant!
“If you want to preach your crap, us more tolerant folk are gonna preach our crap more loudly.”
Now, if the above quotes are those of a tolerant person – imagine what an intolerant person must be like! I guess Duncan/atrios/Tiny Meat is the “Ann Coulter of the Loony Left.”
Perry Como
Maybe this whole episode strikes a little too close to home with the good Senator.
It is good to see that Red State has the integrity to deal with Young Ben “openly, honestly, and in a forthright manner”.
Brian
I think we’re over it, but the bullshit ranting about racism in America needs to be called for what it mostly is: bullshit. The Democrats are living off the Civil Rights – Feminism – Vietnam era struggles, so their entire world view comes from this lens that see perpetual struggle in race, gender, culture, and the “establishment”.
That said, the King funeral was sickening as a display of this struggle, thrown at the face of a sitting president and first lady, on a national stage. It was rank political opportunism, and the Right is sick of it, and it will be revealed and shamed at every turn.
When you bring up race, and call us racists, expect these uncomfortable facts about your politics to come into play.
Blue Neponset
Par R,
Does the irony that you repeatedly call Atrios, “tiny meat” while you harraunged him for calling people names escape you or am I speaking to DougJ?
Perry Como
Blue Neponset, this thread is 97% DougJ by my count.
Jorge
I doubt Redstate goes to half the trouble to vet what they write then what the producers of 60 Minutes II did for the Bush national guard memos story. And honestly, slandering a group of journalists that get it right 99% of the time because of one mistake* in a message meant to defend someone for purposely plagiarizing is ridiculous.
*The Bush memo story was a colossal mistake. No doubt. But there is no proof that the producers of that show were guilty of anything more than failing to properly vet a story that they felt was true. A huge crime in journalism giving the content and context of the memo but still one incident and nothing that comes close to a pattern in the history of the 60 Minutes franchise. And let’s be honest, if those on the right that castigate 60 Minutes for that one story held the current administration to the same standard for vetting information and telling the truth, the entire Bush administration would be hanging from the tallest tree in D.C.
Steve
I quite clearly made a charge of racism. I quite clearly said I didn’t think racism was the only motivation at work. And Darrell quite clearly responded that “to Steve and so many other Democrats Republican racism is the only explantion for Republican criticisms.”
And when called on it, instead of saying “yep, I got that wrong,” he tried to shift the goalposts by saying “see, look at these OTHER things you said! You clearly made a charge of racism!”
Yes, I clearly made a charge of racism. I also clearly said I didn’t think racism was the only motivation at work. And then Darrell lied and claimed I said racism WAS the only explanation. We could go on like this for days…
Just a reminder, friends, in case you didn’t click the link I provided earlier, here is everything you need to know about Darrell’s integrity.
DougJ
Exactly. Conservatives are the ones should be angry about his being hired. He makes them look bad.
don surber
Michelle Malkin just (two hours ago) said Ben should walk the plank
(plays TAPS)
Guess John and the RedStaters couldn’t get everyone to circle
FYI, I have never watched “Red Dawn” so I guess that does not make me a real conservative
jg
White people love black people now. There’s no racism in this country.
DougJ
I’ll read it again, Bumper Stickerist.
Broken
Darrel Quotes:
The right (of which John Cole is not a member) really has gotten to a point where any criticism of a Republican is “left-wing partisanship”,
Just to be clear you lying sack of shit, John Cole is not complaining about just “any” criticism of a Republican, he is specifically complaining about dishonest racist smears on a Republican, a hateful smear the left uses too often
Yeah right. The “Bush-criticism = Left-wing” card is always the first one out of the wingnut deck. Followed by the “let’s change the subject” card.
Yet to Steve and so many other Democrats Republican racism is the only explantion for Republican criticisms. There can be no other reason. And he is not “ashamed” to say so. Do you people see how fucked up you truly are? Of course you don’t.. because you have no honor
Gotta love it when the far righties engage in self-parody. Non-righties are fucked-up and have no honor because we don’t like plagerists.
Louise
I’d find it easier to forgive Ben for being a racist (if he is one, and I have no idea about that) than for being a plagiarist.* Someone who grows up in a fairly insulated environment can believe a lot of things that a more broad life experience would contradict. It’s another matter when someone publishes such small-mindedness on a blog or in a newspaper, but as for the person himself? I’d be more inclined to try and educate him than instantly condemn him.
But plagiarism? There’s no excuse. It’s not like Mommy and Daddy sit around the dining room table and say “I can’t believe that writer got the job when there was a more qualified plagiarist in line for it!” You don’t grow up learning that plagiarism is ok.
*And he is. If the editor of your college newspaper fails to provide citations the first two or three times you publish other people’s words, you stop writing for him, or issue a public denunciation. Ditto the National Review, etc.
Blue Neponset
Thanks Perry. DougJ is just too good at his craft somedays. This is one of them.
jg
You should. Its actually a cool movie. A little dated now and sorta cheesy but still a good 2 hrs spent.
yet another jeff
Yes. But I do have a question for you, as far as accusations that are debatable in truth go, how would you rate “racism” on a scale of 1-10 where 1 is the most hateful of all and 10 is about even with calling someone an asshole?
SeesThroughIt
I notice you haven’t been able to disprove anything that was said at the funeral. Which would make them truths. And they clearly make you uncomfortable, so….
Also, there’s nothing politcally opportunistic about talking about the work of one of the most famous and important civil rights activists in American history and then relating that work to present-day conditions to illustrate that much progress has been made, but said activist’s work is hardly done. Again, uncomfortable truth.
Darrell
On what basis did you make your sweeping charges of racism? Where is the evidence of this ‘flat-out racism’ you speak of??
Oh let me guess.. it’s because you “know” deep down that Republicans are racist, right Steve? Take a close look people. This is how MOST of the left thinks. It’s who they are
VidaLoca
John,
This is the quote from young Ben (writing as “Augustine”) that sent Jane Hamsher over the top:
Her article is here.
(which is from earlier yesterday, it’s not in the article that you’re quoting). But I don’t think she’s pulling the racism charge out of thin air.
Broken
DougJ says:
Conservatives are the ones should be angry about his being hired. He makes them look bad.
Exactly. Putting a fundamentalist plagerizer wing-nut on the WP site is no favor to the right.
Jorge
I think the President and his handlers should have done a little bit of research into who Dr. King, Mrs. King, and the guests of the funeral were before they decided to prop him up on stage. There is a reason why Dr. and Mrs. King were labelled “communists” and were spied upon by the FBI. Do you think the leaders of the civil rights movement will somehow be impressed by the opinions of so many on the right about when and where they should speak truth to power or whether racism is alive or dead in America?
John Cole
junkyardblog
michellemalkin
patterico
americanthinker
riehlworldview
I think he should probably step down if he has plagiarized (and it does not look good). but that was not the point of this post, so I am not sure how I or other conservatives are not ‘getting it.’
The point of this post was to attack the bullshit racist charges that Jane and others are leveling. I am not in the mood to defend people for sins they have committed (in this case, plagiarism), but I am willing to defend people from nasty smears.
And what is most amusing about this thread so far is that several of you have mentioned the smears of treasson sometimes leveled against Democrats.
A.) I defend you when people do that.
B.) Republicans are called racist as frequently as you are called traitors. Neither is fair or healthy.
SeesThroughIt
You should. Its actually a cool movie. A little dated now and sorta cheesy but still a good 2 hrs spent.
Agreed. It’s a fabulously entertaining bit of schlock, totally worth the time spent.
Darrell
How do you “disprove” suggestions that Bush let people die from Katrina because of the color of their skin? That is precisely the sort of “truths” being alleged against the President at Mrs. King’s funeral.
Steve
Oh let me guess.. it’s because you “know” deep down that Republicans are racist, right Steve? Take a close look people. This is how MOST of the left thinks. It’s who they are
I have to repeat myself again.
I will give you a hint, though. Your “guess” is incorrect.
But this is, ironically, totally emblematic of how the Right thinks. There is no such thing as a valid charge of racism, other than racism against whites. In their world, if you accuse Republicans of racism, the only possible reason is that you believe all Republicans are racist. There’s no chance that you might actually have a real basis.
jg
I thik Ben’s a racist but thats only because I’m fairly certain almost all people are racists, black, white, red, yellow, all of them. I was a much bigger racists when I was a kid but there’s still some left in there. Its natural, birds of a feather. Racism will never go away because of a very simple fact, black people aren’t white and white people aren’t black and so on… There will always be that distinction, there will always be the desire, the preference to live amongst people like you. Doesn’t mean there has to be race riots or that we can never get along, it just means that that basic fact will always be there and tensions will arise from it. There are also many good things that will come from people of different races living together but the tension will also always and forever be there.
Skip
Box Turtle Ben: “People who are poor and black are a drag on society. We would all be better off if there were fewer of them.”
My God! I expect even John will have a few problems washing that one away.
Steve
And what is most amusing about this thread so far is that several of you have mentioned the smears of treasson sometimes leveled against Democrats.
A.) I defend you when people do that.
B.) Republicans are called racist as frequently as you are called traitors. Neither is fair or healthy.
Hey, a point fairly made, John. I give you credit.
I think, though, that you are too glibly bypassing the fact that the “Communist” smear was quite regularly deployed as a code word, by the KKK and other racists, against Dr. and Mrs. King back in the day.
I gave Ben the benefit of the doubt, above, when I said he’s just a kid and perhaps he doesn’t even understand the historical context. It is a bit of a coincidence to choose that particular smear for Mrs. King, understand. But still, you shouldn’t act like the accusation of racism just comes out of thin air.
yet another jeff
Yep, suggested…it could also be meant to say that “poor people live in shoddy houses with no insurance and can’t afford to evacuate when disaster comes knocking so we’ve got a lot to do to bring equality to those poor people that quite possibly are in that situation due in part to the color of their skin”
But, you’re right, they probably meant to say the same thing that Kayne West said but just made it vague so some people, the wrong people that don’t have the decoder rings, might not notice that they were saying “Bush let people die because they were black.”
jg
I don’t see why its a smear. There seems to be lots of evidence of his racism. Its not as explicit as yelling ni***rs suck but its still racial hatred. I think you realize he’s a racists but want to defend him because you’re both righties and you’re losing cred and his ability to be coy about his racism gives you a foundation for your defense. Its crap. You attack lefties for implications but defend righties unless their transgression is absolutey explicit.
Darrell
you have given no basis, no justification for your allegation
The reason you haven’t is because there is no basis for making such a sweeping claim. It’s because you’re a flat-out scumbag
Andrew
And it’s over!
jane hamsher
“Jane Hamshers of the left spend a month accusing the soldiers of being war criminals for using WP weapons.”
You better be able to back that up because I will be over here every fucking day until you do (and you can’t, because I never wrote about white phosphorous weapons even once).
Do we understand each other?
Jorge
Can you imagine Bill Clinton attending the funeral of say, Pat Robertson or James Dobson, and Clinton not expecting folks to strongly bring up issues that are of great concern to the Christian Right and were near and dear to the heart of the person being eulogized?
Broken
John Cole says:
And what is most amusing about this thread so far is that several of you have mentioned the smears of treasson sometimes leveled against Democrats.
A.) I defend you when people do that.
B.) Republicans are called racist as frequently as you are called traitors. Neither is fair or healthy.
Yes, you do defend those who are labelled “Traitor” simply for disagreeing with Bush foreign policy. Coming from a conservative, that earns my respect.
But the charge that the GOP harbors racists has some stick to it. The majority of Jews, Blacks, Hispanics and other minorities vote Democratic for a reason. This has been true ever since the Southern Democrats switched parties in the late 60s.
SeesThroughIt
Right. Here’s what Carter said:
Where in there does he say anything about “Bush let people die because they’re Black?” Where does he even mention Bush at all? Touchy, touchy, Darrell.
Rev. Lowery said, “For war, billions more, but no more for the poor.” Yes, billions upon billions have been approved for spending in Iraq. Meanwhile, social aid program budgets have been slashed. So he was right on the money. If that makes you mad, perhaps you should take it up with your beloved president. But no, you’d rather spew at people who speak these uncomfortable truths.
I am right, Darrell. You are wrong. I have proven my point. You have only proven your inability to actually listen to what people say and instead debate vigrously based on your false (and, often, stupid) misinterpretation of what people say. But I guess clueless right-wingers like you can’t help being pitifully dishonest to the core, right Darrell? After all, “it’s just who you are,” right Darrell? Battling the made-up voices in your head is the intelelctual depth of the right wing, right Darrell?
You are dismissed now. Go learn something before you try to argue with me again.
jane hamsher
“Hell, half the things in that despicable Hamsher post were not even WRITTEN BY BEN.”
While you’re at it, back up that one too. I want to see where I attributed something not written by Ben TO Ben.
Unless, of course, you’re talking about something he plagiarised. Did he steal more than we know?
Davebo
John,
I don’t know if Ben is a racist or not. I’d say that if you combine his past writings with the fact that he was homeschooled in VA and SC there is certainly a possibility of racism there.
But then I really think we are most all racist to some degree.
That said, I don’t think you’re qualified to declare the guy is definately not racist based on reading emails in the echo chamber and a few instant message conversations.
MattM
Not even a statement from Ben? Come on, doesn’t he realize that some of us are deriving a slow work day’s entertainment from this saga?
jane hamsher
Waiting…come on, you hack, where’s your proof? I’m waiting…
BumperStickerist
The Jane Hamsher of the World doesn’t understand what “The Jane Hamshers of the World” means, apparently.
Steve
you have given no basis, no justification for your allegation
The reason you haven’t is because there is no basis for making such a sweeping claim. It’s because you’re a flat-out scumbag
I am forced to repeat myself yet again. It took you at least three tries to understand the last point, but I’m willing to keep at it!
First you can apologize for lying about what I said, and then I’ll explain to you where the racism lies.
On a separate note, friends, you did click the link where we discussed Darrell’s little problem with honesty, right?
yet another jeff
Hmmm…this is awkward…might have been better if Jane made it here for a beer and cats day. Well…welcome aboard…
jane hamsher
You pulled the “white phosphorous” claim out of your article but you posted no correction and it does not let your readers know that you were wrong and you smeared me.
Come on, you fucking hack, show your proof or admit you were wrong.
Rome Again
While I am staying out of this racist thing (I really have no interest in reading all the posts on a gazillion sites about this guy, and I trust John truly believes he’s a good person), but I have to say this:
John, why is it that whenever you seem to inch closer to a “I’ve had it” moment with this administration, you immediately swing the pendulum back and play to the wingnuts on this site (who I think are quite astounding in their hateful rhetoric against anyone on the left whenever you queue them up like this)?
Methinks you are pandering to those sitting on the right in your audience, throwing them a bone so to speak, to keep them from dissing you completely. Maybe I’m wrong, but the timing is always the same, so it surely seems that way.
BumperStickerist
Judging from the time stamps, the Jane Hamsher of the World expects John to respond in under ten minutes to a comment that’s
Steve
Jane, Jane, stop this crazy thing. John gets things wrong, but he has class. If he already edited the post, then he might well be writing a mea culpa as we speak.
yet another jeff
Ms. Hamsher…I think John only checks the blog every few minutes or so at the most.
You might want to wait 10-30 minutes for your concern to be addressed.
John Cole
Do we understand each other?
Wow, Jane. You can’t read and you are an asshole flamethrower. I never said you claimed WP was a chemical weapon or made those charges. I said the “Jane Hamshers of the left,” meaning the grenade chuckers like you.
Do we understand each other?
I try to be fair to you, I link you when I agree, but you are clearly nothing more than an angry partisan who cares nothing at all about people, just political gain. I am sick and tired of nasty people- and you are one. Everyone who does not agree with you is a racist, a crazy right winger, etc. Grow the hell up.
I also find it amusing that this is the ONE thing in this whole post and thread you respond to. Telling.
Do we understand each other, tough guy?
jane hamsher
Still waiting. Where did I attribute something to Ben that he didn’t say?
jane hamsher
So “the Jane Hamshers of the left” doesn’t include me. That’s your argument?
John Cole
Jane, you itinerant fool. I never said anything about WP in the main post. I said it in the comments thread. It is still there.
And as I stated a comment above I never said you said that- I said the archetype bombthrowers like you, (ie the ‘Jane Hamshers of the left’) said it.
So now you can apologize for A.) accusing me of saying something I did not say, and B.) accusing me of shady editing.
And you can apologize to everyone for being an idiot.
Pooh
Jane, give the man a few minutes at least.
jane hamsher
I also find it amusing that this is the ONE thing in this whole post and thread you respond to. Telling.
No, once again, you lie. Up the thread on several occasions, I indicate that I disagree that I ever attributed anything to Ben that he did not say. Rather than show where in fact I did this, you say that “this is the ONE thing in this whole post and thread” that I respond to.
Are you even capable of honesthy?
Steve
I get John’s point, but I have to say it’s a little weak to say Jane Hamsher is not one of the Jane Hamshers of the left.
Pooh
I predict that this will not end happily.
Steve
Also, since I was the first one in this thread to ask for an apology, both John and Jane are going to need to get in fucking line and wait their turn before insisting on apologies from one another.
And since the person I demanded an apology from was Darrell, the line might be a little slow to move.
John Cole
Jane- it is called the English language.
For example, were I to say the ‘Ann Coulter’s of the right’ said X, if Ann Coulter came here and said “I never said that!” I would laugh at her the same way I am laughing at you right now.
yet another jeff
Yeah, it is kind of weak to use someone’s name as an archetype that does not include that person. I hope if it’s fixed, it’s fixed like this “the jane hamshers of the world (not including the actual jane hamsher))....”
yet another jeff
Steve, you’re in a separate apology line.
BumperStickerist
Well, Jane’s clear mischaracterization of the Domenech quote (the link to Gilliard is off, btw, Jane)
Ben writes (or, plagiarizes, if that makes you feel good, Jane): “What is morally odious is the cool and disinterested way in which the commentariat is discussing what might fairly be described as racial cleansing. It’s too bad about all those dead babies, but it is a kind of solution to the crime problem, if not a final solution.”
His posts needs extensive editing. The “It’s too bad…” line needs to be in quotes since Ben is paraphrasing the argument for abortion. The fact that Ben himself finds it ‘morally odious’ might factor into any half-non-fucked up reading of his words.
Unless Gilliard stops reading the instant he finds what he’s looking for. And Jane follows suit. The evidence supports that conclusion.
jane hamsher
Even your own readers think you are full of shit, John, in maintaining that the “Jane Hamshers of the left” did not include me.
Are you claiming that you didn’t pull this quote out of the main body of the post, too?
“Jane Hamshers of the left spend a month accusing the soldiers of being war criminals for using WP weapons.”
Because I don’t see it there any more, John, neither is there a correction appended.
tzs
Ben Domenech has just resigned from the WP. They don’t mention racism but they do go heavily into the plagerism.
http://blog.washingtonpost.com.....signs.html
What I don’t understand is why they didn’t do this sort of vetting beforehand. Whatever happened to due diligence?
Doesn’t make me place much credence in that much of their reporting, if this is how they normally work.
Steve
I’m going to lunch. This thread better be good when I get back. I will predict, for the record, a sum total of 0 apologies, give or take 0.
Also, Jane, while I am trying to be fair and objective here, I probably count more as one of your readers than one of John’s. Of course, that might be true of most of John’s readers!
Rome Again
I agree. What kind of an archtype is that?
jg
Jane- it is called the English language.
Damn John, just because we know what you meant doesn’t mean it wasn’t the wrong thing to say or the wrong way to put it so just apologize and get it over with. Clearly she’s overreacting but a reaction is expected so put this to rest and lets move on.
jane hamsher
You’re right, I see it in the comment. My apologies, you did not in fact edit out this gross distortion. It’s still there and your readers still think you are full of shit on that count.
Now I’m waiting for your justification for your claim that I attributed things to Ben that he didn’t say.
Vladi G
God, John, this is the most pathetic excuse I think you’ve ever come up with. Apparently you were talking about all of the Jane Hamshers who are, ya know, not actually Jane Hamsher.
John Cole
Read this S…L…O…W…L…Y… Jane.
IT… NEVER… WAS… IN… THE… MAIN… POST…
It was in a comment to the main post, right here:
But the charges of racism are vile and disgusting and should be dropped. It is so typical- this is what the lunatic fringe of the left always does. For example, last summer- there are a million things going wrong with American policy in Iraq, and the Jane Hamshers of the left spend a month accusing the soldiers of being war criminals for using WP weapons.
By spending so much time acusing Ben falsely of racism, they have given him the cover he needs- he can now spend all his time addressing the racism charges, which he can defend, rather than addressing the plagiarism issue, which looks a lot tougher to defend.
I gotta give those charging racism some credit, though. It takes talent to be that stupid and that scummy at the same time.
As you can see, I clearly never said you claimed WP was a chemical weapon- I said partisan bombthrowers, (IE, the jane hamsher’s of the left) made those charges, the context of which is even richer considering the smearing you did that I discussed in the main body of the post.
Given your selective editing and linking to people distorting Ben’s writing, you aren’t that big on context anyway. And I thought the ‘left’ liked nuance.
Andrew
Sweet! Blog fight! Blog fight!
But I would like to point out that we are all big dorks.
jg
What I meant in my previous post is that I thought from reading this line that she was one of those on the left that was all over the WP fiasco. Since she clearly wasn’t and it was mistekenly implied just apologize and then you can explain the pther stuff she’s pissed about.
jane hamsher
And where did I attribute something to Ben that he did not write?
Davebo
Obviously Jane Hamsher is the new Cindy Sheehan for John.
But then I expected a pushback after the “screw those republicans” post of yesterday.
John Cole
The majority of the readers you are relying on for moral support would think I was full of shit if I said this is March 2006. keep that in mind.
Bumperstickerist covered part of it here, and this quote you highlighted (I think it was after you used the word bigot for the tenth time):
That was written by Blanton, whose words you used to further prove that Ben is a racist (since, of course, everyone at Red State is one).
Ezert
Going back to the King funeral, and Carter’s “outrageous” criticisms of Bush, let’s look at something.
Carter said…
“We only have to recall the color of the faces of those in Louisiana, Alabama and Mississippi, those who were most devastated by Katrina, to know that there are not yet equal opportunities for all Americans.”
To Darrell somehow that means Carter was blaming Bush for the deaths, as opposed to making the generally understood observation that racial equality is still not achieved.
So, I guess to him Bush blames himself for their deaths and called himself out as a racist for this…
“As all of us saw on television, there’s also some deep, persistent poverty in this region, as well. That poverty has roots in a history of racial discrimination, which cut off generations from the opportunity of America.”
norbizness
(1) [Ren Hoek voice] I’M the Left!!
(2) I do like this new rhetorical device; not defining a concept (The Left, partisan bombthrowers), picking an exemplar of this undefined term (Jane), and then tying a complete unrelated issue (white phosphorus usage) to the undefined term that excludes the exemplar. I’m sure that the logical fallacy department at Rome U. didn’t come up with a term for that one, in that they didn’t think it could have possibly been formulated.
SeesThroughIt
Which one is Chong Li, and which one is Van Damme?
Pooh
John. Bullshit.
I think I understand what you are trying to say, but what you actually said clearly implies (at least) that Ms. Hamsher did make such accusations.
Krista
No offense to Jane, but is anybody else having an SNL Weekend Report flashback?
Vladi G
When I first read it, that was my interpretation as well. I thought, “I don’t remember reading anything about WP over there”, although I didn’t look for anything. If John wasn’t including the actual Jane in his group of Janes, well, that’s pretty stupid.
John Cole
I never implied that she said it. You inferred it. I said the Jane Hamsher’s of the left as a synonym for grenade throwers. Given the context, it is really quite clear.
Pb
Steve,
Be understanding with Darrell—he’s just defending his old speech-writer… err… speech-plagiariser… eh, something like that.
As for John and Jane—anyone else reminded of early SNL? Dan Aykroyd? “Jane, you ignorant slut”? Just me?
John Cole
See previous post. I know what I meant when I wrote that, and if after the explanations I have given here you can clearly not see what I was saying, you don’t want to.
jg
My memory is a little fuzzy but has there been a time in the past 6 years or so when a right winger has misinterpreted what a Bush administration opponent has said and demanded an apology?
Pooh
Given that multiple people expressed at least confusion in the last 10 minutes or so, no, I’d say it wasn’t clear.
Krista
POTD. That was delightful. You owe me a new keyboard, John.
Vladi G
Hey man, I had your back.
Krista
pb – oh yeah, big time Dan Aykroyd moment.
norbizness
Then legally change your name to Josh Trevino to further distribute the message. The people who would have started the Second American Civil War over Mr. Domenech at Redstate must be apprised!
MattM
John, I don’t read Jane’s blog, and my immediate takeaway from your statement was that she was one of those pushing the WP story when you were upset about it a few months ago. I agree that you can see it either way, but it’s by no means “clear.”
Rome Again
In your mind, maybe.
jg
I completely agree. In fact I said flat out that I got the ‘impression’ from your words that she was one of those people. Sinc eI’ve never been to her site all I had to go on was your words. I think you can see why I would think that from your words. Your followup also made it very clear thats not what you were actually saying. My point is that since she got so pissed about it you could simply say I’m sorry I left the implication dangling or whatever and just difuse the whole situation. Why continue to argue a misunderstanding? Just fix it.
Pooh
Well as long as you know what you meant…didn’t I just say
so, yes, I understand what you meant, NOW THAT IT HAS BEEN EXPLAINED, and I suppose I could have understood that from the start, but the most natural reading of “the X of the Y did Z” is that X did Z.
And how hard is it for you to say “I apologize for my lack of clarity, let’s move on to my real beef, which are the accusations of racism which I think are unfounded”? Or we all go from Zero-to-asshole in 4.5 seconds (par for the course both here and FDL, to be sure), and call each other names, churn some page views and then…ah. Nevermind, carry on.
Brian
Love the righteous indignation. Don’t go away mad, Jane. Just go away.
Jorge
Um, John. When I read what you wrote, I automatically assumed that you were saying that Jane spent month writing about White Phosphorus. And from grade school through the GMAT, my reading comprehension usually tests through the roof.
I see where you have a debatable out about your intent but that does not change what the vast majority of the people are going to infer about what you wrote.
John Cole
IF many of you think it was not clear, I can live with that. I thought given the context of the post and that comment it was quite clear. This will not be the last time many of you think something I said was unclear.
Regardless, I am not apologizing to Jane, because as I have explained, I never said what she thinks I said. I will edit it so I don’t have to waste any more time on this.
John Cole
I initially wrote March 2005. But then I have been writing checks for the last three months and dating them 2005. I suppose I will catch up in October or so.
Pooh
Ok, for the second time, bullshit. Now, not only did you not mean what we thought what you said meant, but you didn’t actually say what you said? Is it really that hard to be the bigger man here? (Considering Jane’s occassionally tenous grasp on civility herself, as evidenced here, I’d say no).
Yes, I’m being ungenerous, but you’re being obtuse.
jg
Regardless, I am not apologizing to Jane, because as I have explained, I never said what she thinks I said. I will edit it so I don’t have to waste any more time on this.
And Durbin never called US soldiers Nazis but he was asked to apologize and everntually did to ease the minds of those with those bad reading comprehension skills you’re projected on to us.
Krista
Well, if you like you can just send me your pre-signed chequebook, and I’ll be more than happy to fill them out for you. I’m helpful like that.
Davebo
You know, it’s the John Coles of the world and their insistance that democrats enjoy putting their fingers up the anus of conservative’s dogs, their declarations that democrats enjoy having conservatives slap them in the face with their johnsons, that keep me firmly locked in to the democratic party.
Note: This comment does not imply that John Cole believes any of these things. Any one who draws that conclusion is obviously not a professor of english studies at a school that was just knocked out of the NCAA finals.
MattM
Oh, SNAP
Pooh
Thread over. Davebo wins.
srv
Ah, what a great day for the blogosphere. What goes around comes around.
John Cole
Yes, I’m being ungenerous, but you’re being obtuse.
Pooh- Blow me. You want me to apologize for something I did not say because you misunderstood it. I have corrected it so future people will not misunderstand it, but I am not apologizing for something I did not say. I have taken responsibility for the misunderstanding, but I am not going to confess to meaning.saying something I did not. I have clearly explained myself, and if that is not good enough for you, you aree just going to have to deal. Hang on a little bit and Tim will put a beer post up to calm you down.
I think you are the one being obtuse.
jane hamsher
The exact, not selective quote:
I also think I have a clearer understanding of why the culture of so many black Americans in this country is below what it should be and is capable of being. The prominent black spiritual leaders, like Joseph Lowery, are more interested in subsidization from The ManTM than salvation from the Lord.
Such comments would be deleted by the community at Kos, deleted by me or Redd here, and Jim Brady has said they are not welcome at the post.com. If Red State is not deleting them, they have no right to try and skate out underneath with the “don’t hold us to account for the views of our readership.” They obviously meet the standards of their community. You can’t have it both ways.As you can see, the comment is directed at Red State, not Ben. The link through does not even mention Ben.
So. Are you going to take that back, or stand your ground on this one to?
Perry Como
I think firedoglake is a clever DougJ ruse.
Halffasthero
I know that you believe you understand what it is you think I said; but I am not so sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
I loved the quote and was just looking for an excuse to use it.
Nothing else to see here. Carry on. : )
Davebo
Does anyone really win in such a sad situation?
I think not.
jane hamsher
And as for your correction:
You can’t use me as example of the type of partisan grenade tossers who make those claims because I never DID make those claims.
Admit it. I never made those claims, and as such, can’t be used as an example of those who do.
Davebo
On a brighter note…
NFL scouts attending Pro Day at the Univ. of Texas report that Vince Young’s official 40 time was faster than all the guys chasing him.
Hook ‘em!
BumperStickerist
I did a quick search on firedoglake and there is one approving cite by Reddhead to a WaPo article regarding White Phosphorus.
Then, figuring Jane must lead by example, I checked to see just how an apology by a blogger takes form.
There weren’t any examples.
So, the Jane Hamsher of the Left can be a shining example to all the Jane Hamshers of the Left.
Jane models the election losing ‘fits and starts’ trait of the Left in this post, from January:
In addition to all the fabulous 1 star reviews everyone contributed (and if you want to feel good about the existence of an active, engaged left go have a read-through, it’s really quite inspirational), it probably had something to do with John Amato’s phone call to Amazon yesterday inquiring as to why they held their customers’ views in such slight regard, for which the General has given him an honorary Seahawkhood. ...
so, anyway, two month’s later KKKate’s (Jane’s non-race baiting term used later in her post) book is sitting at 3.5 stars and is still in the top 600 on Amazon.
Victorious in January, defeated by March.
Jane’s book, meanwhile, is ranked #597,595. Though it, too, has 3.5 stars.
I’m guessing that it will take a while for Kate’s tome to fall at least 597,000 places on the charts.
The Left, including its Jane Hamshers, need a calendar.
nyrev
Well, that’s different. After all, Jeff just calls people who disagree with him terrorist-loving dogfuckers. Jane called Ben a racist. I mean, would a racist say that black people are a drag on society or call Coretta King a commie the day after her funeral? Oh, wait…
Sorry, John. I’m generally not a fan of the mudslinging on either side. But Ben’s said some stupid shit and now it’s coming back to haunt him. If he were a radio show host, he’d have been fired by now.
Pooh
Was that called for? How is apologizing for any misunderstanding implying that you actually said anything? I mean, I’m not a professor of communications (in which class do we learn that “blow me” is an appropriate response to a disagreement?) but I always thought that lack of clarity was generally a fault of the author not of the audience. Sure, if one person was wildly misconstruing your meaning that would be one thing, but there are plenty of us who were unclear.
To be perfectly clear, since you seem to be misunderstanding my meaning:
No. I think, if you want to move on to your real issue, which is Ms. Hamsher’s accusations of racism, you should take responsibility for the misunderstanding and move on. You did not intend to accuse Jane of the WP thing, you’re sorry if your lack of clarity gave the impression that you were. Let’s move on.
Or, you can yell at me some more, which I’m fine with.
John Cole
JANE- I know where the damned quote came from. I posted it here with a link. You inserted the quote solely as additional proof that Ben is a racist to support your selectively edited precvious Ben quotes. In other words, “Hell, half the things in that despicable Hamsher post were not even WRITTEN BY BEN.”
English really is kicking your ass, isn’t it?
Brian
I’d like an explanation from someone qualified to answer, how this is racist? Just ebcause it would be deleted at Kos doesn’t mean it’s racist, it means that it carries certain coded language that makes liberals uncomfortable.
The Left calling this racist is like the Left getting apoplectic over someone using the word “niggardly”.
crg
Hmm. The “jane hamsher” posting here doesn’t write the same as the one who writes at firedoglake. Either she’s not doing her normal editing, or this isn’t her.
Vladi G
For those of you interested, Davebo is not claimng John Cole insists that democrats enjoy putting fingers up the anus’ of conversatives’ dogs, or that democrats enjoy being cockslapped in the face by conservatives. Davebo is using him as an example of the type of partisan grenade tossers who made those claims.
John Cole
Admit it. I never made those claims, and as such, can’t be used as an example of those who do.
I can see it is another short bus day today.
If the previous 100 comments have made ANYTHING clear, it is that I never said you said that. I was using you as an example of the type of bomb thrower who says all sorts of nasty shit. Which you do.
I don’t know why you care what I say anyway, Jane. I am one of those paid for shills at PJ Media and I am clearly a racist like all those other rednecks at Red State.
jane hamsher
I know where the damned quote came from. I posted it here with a link. You inserted the quote solely as additional proof that Ben is a racist to support your selectively edited precvious Ben quotes.
There is nothing in my post attributing it to Ben, or any indication that it came from Ben, and if there is let’s have it.
Come on, where do I say Ben said this?
Vladi G
English really is kicking your ass, isn’t it?
John, are you deliberately being this stupid? Did that illness kill off a few million brain cells? Did the weight you lost come out of your skull?
SHE NEVER CLAIMED THAT HE WROTE THAT! Really, you’re just being intellectually dishonest, now.
Davebo
Well I won’t back down, no I won’t back down
You can stand me up at the gates of hell
But I won’t back down
Gonna stand my ground, won’t be turned around
And I’ll keep this world from draggin’ me down
Gonna stand my ground and I won’t back down
ppGaz
Demenech is gone. Resigned (or, whatever).
What a frigging idiot.
jane hamsher
I was using you as an example of the type of bomb thrower who says all sorts of nasty shit.
What “nasty shit?” You mean, about soldiers who were war criminals for using white phosphorous?
Find one place I ever called soldiers “war criminals.” And while you’re at it, show the place where I attribute the quote you pull out of my blog to Ben.
Blue Neponset
C’mon John. That is dismissive bullshit. Who said you were any of those things (today anyway)?
Jorge
I bet you guys $10 dollars the neither Professor Cole or Ms. Hamsher would be this nasty to each other in real life.
srv
Tim, it’s Friday and it’s time for BEER!
Davebo
See Jane, this is your problem. Sure you never attributed this quote to gentle Ben. But it could be construed quite easily by others that you had indeed attributed the quote to Ben.
This is all just ridiculous. John obviously believed you had gotten involved in the White Posphorous affair. Only a total idiot could construe his post in any other way.
How was he to know you would actually appear here and call him on it?
But you did.
So now we’ve gone through several comments containing the most inane pretzel logic seen since the last good Steely Dan album in an attempt to explain that he didn’t say what he very clearly said. Or at least he didn’t mean what he very clearly did mean. And of course, we are all just blathering partisans for taking his words at face value.
But the biggest irony in this is that it all came about in a defense of Ben’s words. Sure Ben said something that most thinking individuals would construe as racist. But that’s only if you take Ben’s words at face value.
However if you bend over backwards, wrap your legs around your skull and tie you arms behind your back it becomes clear that Ben was actually paying Mrs. King a compliment by calling her a commie. Cause Ben thinks commies are cool, if a bit hard to come by these days.
In the end, this is one of the sillier blog exercises I’ve ever seen. And if it weren’t for the fact that I can’t start my weekend for another hour I’d be ashamed to be in the audience.
John Cole
The only reason you included it in the damn post was to back up your previous assertions that that Ben is racist.
Dishonest hack.
John Cole
Christ. I give up.
jane hamsher
C’mon John. That is dismissive bullshit. Who said you were any of those things (today anyway)?John cannot defend his assertions that a) saying “Jane Hamshers of the left” does not, in fact, include me and b) that I ever attributed anything to Ben that he did not write, so he has no choice but to engage in the “bomb throwing” he accuses me of (Come on Jane, is English kicking your ass?)
Amazing that he could decry me for the only tactics he seems to be capable of employing in the face of his crumbling arguments that nobody is buying.
Someone upthread said John was “classy.” Wonder if they still think so.
Oh and I’m still waiting for proof that I in any way indicated the comment he cites came from Ben.
John Cole
Jane-
Am I going to have to dig up your PJ threads?
Jorge
Davebo,
You probably believe Dick Cheney linked 9/11 and Saddam Hussein together, don’t you?
Davebo
Sadly about 10 comments to late.
Walk it off..
Davebo
Jorge..
Just as strongly as I believe that condoms cause sex among teens.
;0)
jane hamsher
The only reason you included it in the damn post was to back up your previous assertions that that Ben is racist.
No, I was writing about how racist comments met the community standards of Red State, the blog, hence the Red State Link.
The paragraph following the quote says:
Which quite clearly indicates I am speaking about Red State and not Ben, because—as you’ll notice—Ben is not mentioned.
So come on, John, let’s have it. Let’s have the quote where I in any way attribute this to Ben.
SeesThroughIt
Oh, man. I remember this brouhaha, and I remember thinking, “God, how fucking stupid are these people?” That was just plain pitiful.
Davebo
Don’t look now. But the absolutely non racist, quite reasonable denizens at Red State have begun to eat their young.
http://www.redstate.com/story/2006/3/24/13456/1406
D. Mason
Until today I dodn’t have a clue who Jane Hamsher was and I had never gone to firedoglake despite seeing it mentioned here, but I just have to say wow.
What happened John, did you feel that because she “smeared” this right winger you should “smear” her right back? That’s sure what it seems like. She accused one of your team of something he “didn’t do” so turnabout is fair play right? Just a little partisan tit for tat eh? It really doesn’t matter how venomous or how much of a liar this woman could be. You negate any of that when you infer things about her that aren’t true by including yourself in whatever category you’re trying to put her in. Even if what you said is 100% true and what she said is 100% false, by the way you approached the situation you made your own argument seem ignorant, good job.
In other words: pot, meet kettle.
John Cole
Umm. She was linked. I was not afraid of her bullying bullshit. You guys on the left have quite a little echo chamber going, but I am not afraid of your crap when you are wrong, and I will agree with you when I think you are right.
jane hamsher
Oh and by the way, the use of more ad-hominum attacks will be construed as proof that this is all you’ve got and you can’t back up your claims that I attribute this quote to Ben.
fwiffo
You all must start drinking heavily immediately. This is a fucking emergency.
Louise
So…um…how ‘bout those Tigers?
John Cole
So come on, John, let’s have it. Let’s have the quote where I in any way attribute this to Ben.
Wow. You are a coward. The only reason you juxtaposed the unattributed Red State piece in that post was to back up your previous assertions that Ben is a racist (based upon selectively edited posts by Ben).
Speaking of class- you have none whatsoever. I wash my hands of you.
John Cole
And I am serious. I am done with this for the day. It is Friday afternoon and I am through with this website until tomorrow.
After today, there is just one less person on the left I respect. No big deal.
srv
Davebo, you’re on fire today.
Anyone find the irony that Ben was a speechwriter for the real Senator Cornyn?
Davebo
From Jeff. Hmmm… I think I can predict what explanation Ben will offer.
See Jeff, I was just minding my own business shoving my finger up my dogs ass and looking for someone to slap with my Taliwacker when all of the sudden a voice from heaven came into my head…..
Davebo
Oh yeah. That respect was practically oozing out of the original post John.
But I think you’ve got the right idea. Take a break. It’s beautiful outside here.
Slide
Damn… I missed all this in real time? John getting bitch slapped unmericfully on his own blog by Jane? Doesn’t get any better than that. Little clue to John: Say “Uncle” and move on, you are not winning this one.
Vladi G
Well, it’s a relative thing. He is classy compared to must of the other conservatives out there, like that shitbag Jeff Goldstein.
jane hamsher
Wow. You are a coward. The only reason you juxtaposed the unattributed Red State piece in that post was to back up your previous assertions that Ben is a racist (based upon selectively edited posts by Ben).
Speaking of class- you have none whatsoever. I wash my hands of you.
You have no argument, do you? You are utterly dishonest and cannot admit that your entire argument is utterly dishonest. You cannot provide ANY PROOF that I ever attributed a comment to Ben that he did not write because I clearly did not, and you stand by your assertion that “Jane Hamshers of the left” is not intended to include me.
Well I’m not washing my hands of you. Not by a long shot.
Jorge
And that’s why we read you every day, Papi. You really are the most challenging blogger I read. And I always come to you last. Which is a compliment.
Thinkprogress first.
Kos second.
Atrios 3d
Crooks and Liars 4th
Talkingpoints 5th
Sullivan 6th
Juan Cole 7th
John Cole 8th
Davebo
SRV
Sadly I actually voted for Cornyn. Odd for such a wild eyed moonbat I know, but the truth.
Steve
Even a boxing match only goes 15 rounds. Let’s declare a winner and MoveOn.
Krista
I think this thread is the most fun one I’ve seen since I started on here…
Slide
damn… John is gone just as my popcorn came out of the microwave?
Vladi G
You’re talking about me again, aren’t you?
Perry Como
I’ve got some roux in the oven. The gumbo won’t be done for a few hours though.
Slide
Jane I said way way uptread that those of us on the left are not turning the cheek anymore when we are slimed by the right, that those days are long long gone. Thank-you for demonstrating that in spaded. Fight back and they scurry away like the little cowards they are.
jane hamsher
After today, there is just one less person on the left I respect. No big deal.
This is your idea of “respect?” This is the shoddy, dishonest crap you generate that depends on gross misreading that you classify as “respect?” Are you fucking kidding me?
You’ve gone home with your tail between your legs because you cannot defend yourself. You have no defense. Your entire post is bullshit and you can’t prove otherwise, you can’t back it up, you’ve humiliated yourself in front of your readers and utterly disgusted me. A “classy” person with any respect for printing the truth would amend the post to reflect what the truth actually was. You have no interest in writing the truth, you’ve taken a swan dive into a bottle full of ego and decided to wallow there.
Let’s cut the claptrap about “respect.” You were guilty in that post of everything you’ve ever accused me of and more. If you’re looking for a portrait of a “hack” take a look in the mirror. And I can back that claim up—anyone can just read the previous thread for proof.
Slide
roux?
John Cole
I NEVER SAID YOU ATTRIBUTED IT TO BEN. I said:
You have even stated fifteen times yourself Ben did not write it, Blanton did.
I am really out of here now.
Slide
errrr… remind me never to piss off Jane
Perry Como
You have to be joking. Heathen!
Slide
Cole:
. Yes, JOHN, but you inferred that Jane indicated that they were. You are very good at semantics John, but very very dishonest.
Slide
ahhh…. roux. the base of bechamel, veloute, or white sauce. I knew that.
D. Mason
Semantical games are what political extremists do best. In many ways it makes them what they are.
les
” I know what I meant when I wrote that,” and anyone who can’t read my mind is an idiot undeserving of apology.
Par R
Why is everyone upset by what Jane Hamster thinks or says? Even some on the Left, such as Oliver Willis, acknowledge that she’s a loony flamethrower, with few redeeming points.
Slide
Isn’t this precious from the Washington Post?
yeah, I bet they do.
Davebo
Perry,
No, the heathen is the one who cooks his roux in the oven!
Is this some kind of New Jersey roux?
ImJohnGalt
Um, I’m hardly going to defend John here, as I was among those people that took from his post that Jane was pumping the WP story. I do think that while he may have known what he meant, for him to expect that nobody that read “the Jane Hamshers” would exclude the eponymic Jane herself from that set borders on ludicrous.
It would’ve been quite easy for him to say “Hmm..you’re right, that was a bit misleading, my bad. Still Jane is overly shrill about Ben being a racist, and here’s why”.
We then could have piled on with only a few pointed barbs aimed at each other (and John), and set ourselves up well for beer blogging and the weekend. scs would’ve come on and asked some question about racism that could’ve been answered by a quick Google search, and Darrell could consistently misinterpret what Steve said, and boy howdy, we could’ve had a few bong hits and laughed about it tomorrow.
That said, it’s hard to have a measured response when your foe comes in guns blazing. This could have a been a vastly more informative dialogue (albeit much less entertaining) if Jane (who I read regularly, and generally enjoy her fighting spirit) had not been quite so antagonistic with her first post. I believe Glenn Greenwald when he came over here had a reasonable response to something of his John pointed to (if I recall correctly, help me out here).
We should be encouraging dialogue between the sides, folks, not yelling. What was it Stewart said on Crossfire?
Anyhoo….carry on, people. Carry on.
Krista
Definitely no roux that I’ve ever encountered…
In the oven. I must say I’ve not heard of that – do you find an appreciable difference from roux cooked on the stovetop?
jane hamsher
It goes on, and all of it is designed to smear Ben Domenech as a racist. I could link you to hundreds of other smear jobs by Atrios and others, but why bother? Hell, half the things in that despicable Hamsher post were not even WRITTEN BY BEN. Even as I grow more and more disgusted and sick of the Republican party, I am still amazed at the gutter antics of the rabid left.
And now you are saying “I NEVER SAID YOU ATTRIBUTED IT TO BEN.”
So before you do crawl off to sulk what exactly were you trying to imply, John? What was the point of making this statement? Your earlier defenses indicate that this is precisely what you meant. Did it take you this long in the thread to come up with this one?
Davebo
It takes all kinds Krista, and I firmly believe in a “big tent” policy among afficionados of acadian cuisine.
Except for the scum that keeps saying they make “okra gumbo”. Geez, those guys can’t be tolerated.
BumperStickerist
slide,
The title of the post of Jane’s that John linked to belies your point to John. Without putting too fine a rhetorical flair on it, it means that you’re wrong.
Also, as has been pointed out, John never said that Jane attributed something to Ben that Ben didn’t write. He says “Hell, half the things in that despicable Hamsher post were not even WRITTEN BY BEN. ”
Which is true.
And remained true the second time and third time he pointed that out.
So we’re back to Jane taking UMBRAGE over perceived slights rather than actual ones. Which might be a trait of race-bating blaspheming fundie minister’s daughters with blogs. The available data supports that conclusion.
And, fwiw, there is a White-Phosphorus cite on FDL. Reddhead approvingly links to a WaPo article on the topic.
.
Vladi G
You probably don’t appreciate the irony of that, do you?
Stephen Colbert
Don’t back down just because you mislead your readers and mischaracterized the Hamster. We all understand there’s a certain ‘truthiness’ to saying the “Jane Hamsher’s of the world” doesn’t actually mean the Jane Hamsher if it turns out I can’t back up what I actually said.
Gonna have this post ‘await moderation’ for 40 minutes like the last one?
Slide
John’s comments about Jane:
I think the distortion of what Ben has written by Jane and others is outrageous and disgusting
Jane Hamsher and those writing that sort of crap should be ashamed of themselves
Jane’s first post:
Do we understand each other?and you’re putting the onus on Jane for lack of civility? lol
Alexandra
Honestly, I think it’s pretty much a stretch to say that he’s not at all racist.—calling Coretta Scott King a Communist? Please—big fan of Jefferson Davis? Come on.—That post he approvingly put up citing the article about how blacks should be eliminated to lower crime? Well, let’s just say, I think that you MIGHT consider that a BIT racist.
Krista
ImJohnGalt – actually, you’re right. I mean, I’m a lefty, and when Jane came in like this:
Do we understand each other?
I agree that John was being a stubborn fart, but man oh man, when someone comes in like that, it really makes it impossible for the issue to be resolved in a civil fashion.
ImJohnGalt
Somebody’s gotta be the bigger person. My money was on Jane.
I was wrong.
Steve
In the case of Hamsher v. Cole, the plaintiff has asserted two causes of action:
1. That the defendant made reference to “the Jane Hamshers of the Left” making allegations concerning white phosphorus, when, plaintiff alleges, she has never made any such allegations;
2. That the defendant accused plaintiff of making a post regarding Ben Domenech where “half the quotes were not even BY Ben” when, plaintiff alleges, she never attributed any quote to Ben Domenech other than those he actually authored.
As to the first count, the court finds the defendant’s testimony credible insofar as he claimed he never intended to accuse plaintiff of making such statements personally. However, the court also finds that a reasonable reader, upon encountering the construction “the Jane Hamshers of the Left,” would take it to mean that Jane Hamsher herself was included in that formulation. Defendant apparently operates under the belief that so long as he did not intend to say anything inaccurate, he cannot be held responsible for the construction which a reasonable reader would place upon his words. The court disagrees and finds defendant’s refusal to apologize to be unduly stubborn and unwarranted.
As to the second count, the court finds the statements by both parties to have been literally true. Plaintiff’s post did, indeed, contain a number of quotes that were not authored by Ben Domenech. However, the court agrees with defendant that plaintiff, in so stating, improperly implied that defendant had made less than forthright disclosure of the authorship of such quotes. The court finds that plaintiff, in fact, truthfully attributed the quotes included in her post, including the quote attributed to “Red State Racists,” the plaintiff’s nom de guerre for the internet site RedState.com. Whether a reader of plaintiff’s site would conclude that a statement by one of the front-page posters at RedState.com should be deemed relevant to their assessment of Mr. Domenech, a founder of that site, is for each individual reader to determine. The court finds no misleading aspects to plaintiff’s post that would impair a reader’s ability to make a full and fair determination of that issue.
Accordingly, the court finds for plaintiff on both causes of action, with costs, judgment to enter accordingly. The clerk will call the next case.
Krista
Proper thing. Same policy should apply towards afficionados of acadian commenters. LOL.
Ancient Purple
Wow! The only things missing from this thread are (in no certain order):
1) MacBuckets calling liberals traitors.
2) Stormy calling liberals “unhinged” and then leaving to watch Tivo.
3) scs posting from the liberal haven of Anchorage about something or other.
4) Al Maviva taking 42 paragraphs to tell us what today’s date is.
All in all, though, a great flame war.
Keep up the good work, brave soliders.
/passes Krista and ppGaz the popcorn
ImJohnGalt
Having said this, two comments from Red State for your perusal.
From Ben’s resignation explanation:
We’re genX, n00b. We multitask. We can bash both you AND America. I would’ve thought as a 24-year old, you would understand that. Never played “Call of Duty” while typing your blog entry, talking on the phone and eating pizza (in your underwear)? And don’t lie – there are probably pictures out there.
Quite frankly, I don’t really have anything to say about this. I don’t even have it in me to do a Darrell…you know “this is the right. this passes for deep thinking on the right.” I really hope that isn’t true.
Andrew
Let’s get to the real issue at hand:
Does Jane want lasers, or not?
And the RedState foot soldiers are proving to be as magnanimous in defeat as they are in victory:
To those conservatives who couldn’t wait to find wrongdoing where none existed: Gee, funny you didn’t get all hyped up about this with Bob Bork. Or Sam Alito. I guess maybe your common sense detector—or decency reserve—only kicks in when it gets you something you want?
You’re all dead to me, as well. Too bad: One lady in particular was a favorite writer of mine. Ah, well.
Slide
you mean by “bigger person” to allow someone to defame you without fighting back? Thats not a “bigger person” thats a Democrat.
Perry Como
Davebo says:
Heh. It’s a method I’ve found that works well when you want a very dark roux. Start off with your fat and flour in the cast iron skillet and stir it over low heat on the stove until it starts to froth. Toss it into a 300 degree oven and then stir every 5 minutes until it gets a little past the peanut butter stage. Pull it out, toss it on the stove at high heat, whisk like hell, and you’ll have a dark roux in another 5 minutes. Turn the heat off and keep whisking and you can get a very dark roux with the residual heat.
Takes less effort and seems to be more foolproof than doing the entire thing on the stove top. Especially if you are doing a large batch (this batch is 6 cups worth). Mmmm, looks like dark chocolate.
And okra goes best with stewed tomatoes and some tasso.
ImJohnGalt
Um. There’s fighting back with the intent to persuade, and then there’s fighting back with the intent to, I dunno, escalate the hostility? I didn’t say she shouldn’t respond, Slide. Only that she might have had a more constructive dialogue if she hadn’t posted as she did, and then demanded within moments that John respond. People here do have jobs that sometimes keep them away from the computer.
Honestly, I am a fucking registered Democrat, but it doesn’t mean I applaud incivility by anyone [other than myself – that I’m totally okay with].
Krista
/Krista accidentally spits her popcorn all over Ancient Purple.
Damn. Sorry. I’ll be back with some more…the thread’s quieting down a bit, but I sense trolls lurking, and will need sustenance.
ImJohnGalt
Perry, that sounds awesome. Think I’ll go get the fixin’s for for a gumbo this weekend.
Andrew
Whenever I think of John Cole, this springs immediately to mind…
LITBMueller
When John wrote
Am I going to have to dig up your PJ threads?
I thought to myself, “Whoah! John slept with Jane, and he’s threatening to find forensic evidence left behind by her pajamas?
?! WOW! This is the best thread ever
”
Heh heh….
That was a blast. It definitely made my Friday go a little faster. Too bad John took his ball and went home, but, at the same time, I can’t blame him – Jane was pretty rude.
Jane, you could have won your argument really easily without being so combative. All you did was give him an “out.” :(
More fireworks tomorrow, I hope? On to the beeeeeerrrrr
!
yet another jeff
Someday John and Jane will look back on this day and laugh…
Is is just me, but did y’all sense some sexual tension between them…or am I confusing that with fighting like married people?
ImJohnGalt
Married people have sexual tension?
Slide
sorry but I would love this country to have civil political discourse but we are not in an environment where that can happen. Unfortunate but true. And, I’ll be damned if only one side will play nice while the other side beats them over the head by questioning their very patriotism on a daily basis. Don’t like every single provision of the Patriot Act – you’re helping the terrorists. You want some changes regarding unions in the Homeland Security Act? you are working with Bin Laden. You are a journailist reporting on what is happening in Iraq? you are helping the enemy. This is every fucking day in this country and you are going to attack someone that fights back? Give me a fucking break.
America likes fighters. They expect you to fight for your beliefs even if they disagree with them. I belive John Kerry lost because he failed to understand this and didn’t get “uncivil” with the Swift Boat liars. Yes, he took the higher road and he got nowhere for it. People naturally see that if Kerry was unwilling to fight for his own honor how can we expect him to fight al Qaeda? I’m tired of Dems bemoaning liberals taking a tough slash and burn approach. I dont’ think we should ever lie about our adversaries, like the right does about us, but we should never NEVER fucking sit back and not respond immediately to their bull shit and call them on it. Sorry, the civility in me has been sucked out by an administration that raised the demonization of its political opposition to an art form.
Blue Neponset
I can’t blame Jane for getting so miffed. God bless his heart and all that but, John accused her of pretty much being a muckracking hack who was misquoting Domenech and wrting lies about white phospherous (that is how I read it anyway). If the author of a fairly popular political blog accused me of those things I would have responded angrily as well.
ImJohnGalt
Slide, I hear you. And yet, I am somehow able to discern the difference between our Democratic Representatives calling out the lies of the Republican party when they occur (and, for that matter calling them “lies”), and using every legislative and procedural device at their disposal to further prevent or delay the Republicans from running the damn country into the ground, vs. coming to a blog run by an independent citizen and saying:
Do we understand each other?
[sorry for the run-on sentence]
It does seem needlessly provocative and threatening. But whatever, YMMV.
I respect Jane as a passionate writer on liberal/Democratic issues, and John as a libertarian/old-school conservative. Given that these two groups are the only ones who seem to actually have any constructive ideas about how to run the country, at some point they’re going to have to be able to talk to one another to fix the shitstorm that the Republicanites (testing a meme, here) have caused over the last 5 years.
BumperStickerist
again, John said that half the things in Jane’s ‘Box Turtle Ben’ post and cited as proof of his being ‘racist’ weren’t written by Ben. Which is, you know, true.
As for Jane’s hackiness and muckraking, in that post she cites back to other Leftie blog posts rather than source material. And demonstrates in the process that she doesn’t bother to read the source material but rather trusts the opinion of the sourcing blogger.
That strikes me as being hacktastic.
SeesThroughIt
I love that shit. The little move where he looks like he’s holding an invisible head in front of his crotch is so brilliant.
MattM
Ben’s defense of his movie review plagiarism is a HUGE load of horseshit. The passages in question were used to build the argument that he was making. An editor couldn’t just add them without setting up the plagiarized quote and transitioning from it to the next “original” thought.
And his imaginary editor must have had a TON of time on his or her hand. It’s much easier to do what editors actually do, which is to say “This sucks. Rewrite it.”
Blue Neponset
Why is it OK for you not to cite the source material?
Geek, Esq.
So, JC, what do you think about bloodthirsty hatemongers like Thomas and the rest of the Redstate crew, who just characterized half of America as subhumans who deserve immediate death?
Today is the day that Redstate died a long overdue death. Long known to be a bunch of clinically insane cave dwellers by us on the left, they’re now burning their bridges with the conservative bloggers who have full use of their faculties.
Pooh
Ewww.
ImJohnGalt
Oh, that’s nice. The carpetbagger also thinks you would make a nice replacement for Ben.
Andrew
I so need a fake suspenders tank top shirt like that.
Wait, wait, I bet it’s actually a UNITARD
!
BumperStickerist
Why is it OK for you not to cite the source material?
I did give a cite. The post in question is linked at the top of this comment thread.
Now that we’re 300 comments into this pile of crap I just figured that EVERYBODY would have read the actual posts involved for themselves by now.
If you haven’t yet, you can go scroll up to the top of this thread and find Jane’s post.
Brian
Maybe we’ll have another civil war in this country, this time between the Left and the Right. If so, we on the right will hunt you like the dogs you are, and go all Muslim on people like Kos. You know, behead him on his own site.
Now I can enjoy a pizza to that!
You won a battle, but you’ll never win the war, especially with people like Jane Hamsher in your ranks.
jg
The war would last about eight minutes. Who owns the armed forces, the right or the left?
Steve
I appreciate Brian’s effort to just laugh it off. I guess I would do the same, if I wanted to be able to continue spewing the line that the other side is some kind of brewing cesspool of hate that can’t be trusted to run the country. But you know, Brian, you may not mean it, but he did.
Bruce Moomaw
Let’s see now. Domenech calls Coretta King “a Communist”, has to apologize almost immediately and admit that this was a totally false accusation, and is caught by Brad Delong gushingly praising Jefferson Davis last June—and John Cole expects us to believe that he is utterly devoid of racism? Riiight. If this isn’t “racism”, it is something so close that the difference could not be determined with a microtome.
Pooh
Brian, you are in fact joking, right?
I think this thread demonstrates the need to be…clear with one’s meaning, otherwise someone might misunderstand. Which would be all their own fault, becuase you know what you meant, so
blow emscrew em.Barbar
Why someone would bother to defend Ben Domenech from an army of hacks is beyond me.
“Oh political hackery is so offensive to me, how dare you attack poor innocent Ben.”
Brian
Cut the guy some slack, will you? Have you no heart? I mean, really, the guy’s been put through the grinder this week and just resigned. Even if you disagree with him, can you let him vent? Does it ever end with you folks?
Slide
the compassionate Brian
the not so compassionate Brian:
Steve
I was referring to you, Brian, with that paraphrase of how 50% or more of your posts typically read.
My point was that you would have a hard time continuing to accuse the Left of subhuman incivility were you forced to acknowledge that yes, there are leading conservatives at places like RedState.org who actually do wish Democrats dead.
MattM
Had the guy taken any responsibility whatsoever for his actions, I’d probably be feeling a little sympathy towards him. The fact that he didn’t, and is relying on the fact that most people don’t understand how a newsroom works to push this bogus “my editor did it” line…well, let’s just say that it’s not unjust for the dogpile to keep getting larger.
Andrew
Oh geez, you are so right. Come on liberals, can’t you just go back to being objectively pro-terrorist and stop being so subjectively anti-Ben, just for a little while?
Actually, I’m pretty sure that Ben Domenech doesn’t exist and is instead a masterful DougJ spoof, and fooling the Washington Post is his best work yet.
Ancient Purple
Oh, good God! Ben is a complete idiot.
And… he plays the age card. Yes, we are all magically absolved because of our age.
Question for you, Ben: if you couldn’t be trusted not to plagiarize, why should you have been trusted to drive a vehicle?
Right. Because P.J. O’Rourke just willy-nilly waves copyright for any college newspaper writer that comes along. Any paperwork to back up your claim? An email? A note on a cocktail napkin?
You poor, poor scapegoat.
Life is a veil of tears, Ben. Welcome to it.
Guesst
So everyone buys that Ben lifted a movie review from Salon——but did anyone bother checking to see if Salon lifted it too?
They aren’t the only two examples, in case nobody noticed.
The Left is SO unreliable, but on a positive note, they do excel at smearage and combined coverage of smearage.
Perry Como
You can send your waves of Christian warriors while my robot army rips them apart as I sip a mojito. Maybe faith will trump science.
ImJohnGalt
Uh, give that I re-posted that quote above about killing half the country, let me state that it was not Ben that said it, but rather one of the commenters on RedState. That is, someone who had no skin in the game other than that Ben was discovered to be a plagiarist, and who felt that the best way to express his sympathy for Ben was was to wax poetic at the idea that half of the country should die for their beliefs at his “team’s” hands.
Say what you will, and perhaps you can come up with someone on Dailykos who has said it, but I see an awful lot more eliminationist rhetoric coming from the Republican side than the Democratic side of the divide. Calling people idiots and morons seems a lot less crass when you put it up against people calling for your death.
ImJohnGalt
Perry, you have a robot army? Can it make a good gumbo?
ImJohnGalt
Maybe, just maybe, Salon lifted it from Ben. Didja ever think about that? Sue them, Ben!
Perry Como
IJG - it still uses too much cayenne :/
The Other Steve
People are only doing to Ben, what Ben would gladly do to others.
Maybe if the rightwing showed some Christian values, people wouldn’t be so happy to gang up on them. Next time you think about opening your mouth and insulting someone, you ought to keep that in mind, Brian.
The Other Steve
Oh wow. Our Vice President just announced she’s going to run for Sabo’s seat in Minnesota.
That’s just outstanding. She’s been an awesome leader here. I hope she gets the nomination.
We’re really seeing some high quality candidates running in 2006.
capelza
To those conservatives who couldn’t wait to find wrongdoing where none existed: Gee, funny you didn’t get all hyped up about this with Bob Bork. Or Sam Alito. I guess maybe your common sense detector—or decency reserve—only kicks in when it gets you something you want?
You’re all dead to me, as well. Too bad: One lady in particular was a favorite writer of mine. Ah, well.
Is this a Goodbye Cruel World type of thing? Oh please, please…what a god damned drama queen. Historonic and childish…though no suprise. If he leaves, will he take that misogynistic fuck, Nick Danger with him?
I crawled out of my sick bed, too late, for the fireworks…:( Looks like a good brawl though… :)
RonB
Maybe John just wanted someone indefensible to defend like Tim did with Goldstein.
Brian
What the hell does that comment have to do with anything? And when or where did I insult you? Where do you get off lecturing me?
I’m a conservative, but not religious. So, I don’t have to live by any religious creed you try to throw back at me. If Ben is religious, everything I’ve read of his comes nowhere close to what I see from people like you, or Kos.
Put away your knives for once.
Brian
I thought the quote from RedState was from Ben, so I apologize for getting that wrong.
However, your above quote is plain wrong. I see it on sites all the time. I have seen horrible comments from visitors of this site, Kos, Crooks and Liars, MyDD, Atrios, and more. You’re kidding yourself if you think leftists are all peaceful flower children.
Sirkowski
John Cole got PWN3D AGAIN! lol
The Other Steve
Whatever. The fucking maggot deserves it. He should go out and get a job like real americans and stop living off the titty of the government. Fucking Welfare Trust fund boy.
Knives? I’m bringing guns.
The Washington Post is going down over this one. They should never have hired that bastard to begin with. Bunch of freaking weenies, thinking that they can placate Conservative criticism over fact based journalism by hiring Bush cronies. It’s like an abused spouse trying to appeal for mercy. You don’t get respect by cowering in the corner. You get respect for standing up for yourself.
Go sit in the corner, brian. This is obviously too hot for your sensitive little weenie ass to handle.
And before you whine poetically about what myself or someone like Kos has said, you better go look in the mirror. Your posts are some of the most hate filled, illogical diatribes I’ve ever encountered.
LITBMueller
Man, oh, man….would somebody please call those guys at RedState a frickin’ waaahhhhhmbulance already??
I mean, I do personally agree that the vehemence with which Mr. Domenevech was attacked was way over the top. Personally, I would have preferred to see him keep blogging, and then had the chance to respond to him in his comments section (since RedState bans those that disagree).
That being said, though, the RedState folk need to stop their whining after their own tactics get used upon one of their own. What short memories! Have they forgotten that this kind of crap was created by Lee Atwater? Who can forget this choice Atwater quote?
And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I’m not saying that. But I’m saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me – because obviously sitting around saying, “We want to cut this,” is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than “Nigger, nigger.”
Atwater’s protege’, Karl Rove, turned dirty politics into a science. And, we got to see his handiwork in the dismantling of McCain in 2000 and the activities of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth in 2004.
I personally hate dirty politics and out-of-whack partisanship. But, man, I hate whiners more.
You reap what you sow.
turned into a science by Karl Rove, and
EL
New information speaking to the “my editor added it without my knowledge” defense. Atrios posted this within the last few hours:
This should seem obvious, but no one on the editorial staff was going into Salon (or wherever) and pasting whole sections into his reviews. We were more concerned about getting the paper done so we could get home at 2 in the morning instead of 5. We may have put additional words in the story, but it would never have been completely foreign content. It was just editing.
For those who want a pointer, it’s under “Wanker of the Day,” about 1/4 of the way down the page.
ppGaz
Okay, I went back and re-read the thread, and I still don’t know what the hell the John-Jane argument was about.
I’m out of popcorn, and I’ve got a leg cramp and the cat has drooled all over my keyboard.
Can I get a refund?
Billy Bob
Are you suggesting that the WaPo deliberately hired a known plagiarist and published him on their website, thus exposing themselves to public opprobrium, in order to discredit the right?
Wow… That’s um, kinda loopy, isn’t it?
t. jasper parnell
PPGAZ,
The initial post accused the Jane Hamshers but the Jane Hamsher of making a specific factual error (something to do with the Willy Pete imborglio) and Ms. Hamsher cheating on a quote. In both case, I have to say, Mr. Cole came off the worse.
p.lukasiak
I don’t agree with Ben Domenech on nearly any social issue, but I have read thousands of his private emails at Red State (we have an Editor’s listserv of sorts), spoken with him (via AOL IM) dozens of times, and I have never seen or heard one shred of racism come from him. I think Ben Domeonech is wrong on a lot of things, but he is no racist,
correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t John one of those who thought that Bill Bennett’s “if we abort all black children, the crime rate will go down” statement was not racist…..
I hate to break it to you John, but just because you don’t support lynching doesn’t mean you are not a racist—- even if that is how they define “not a racist” in West Virginia….
kl
When has that ever worked?
BumperStickerist
Hi ppgaz,
you’re wrong.
To directly quote Dennis Prager on this topic:
For example, he went on to say, “You could abort every black baby in this country, and your crime rate would go down.” And he immediately added, for the sake of those who might distort his meaning, that aborting all black babies would be “impossible, ridiculous, and morally reprehensible
[emphasis added]
So, Bill used a thought experiment. That’s somewhat of the same tack that Ben took on the part that has Gilliard and, thanks to unblinking acceptance of Gilliard’s pronouncement by Hamsher of Gilliard’s work, THE Jane Hamsher all striken and afflicted. Ironically, I think that Ben used the same phraseology as Bennett in his blog piece, so – there you go – another bit of plagiarism by Ben, yet not an ounce of racism in either piece.
And, forgive me if I don’t accept Gilliard’s and Hamsher’s take on Ben and ‘codewords’. My experience is that when the term ‘codeword’ is used by the Left it’s just their codeword for “Fuck it, I got nothing.”
.
Brian
Cut the rhetoric with a knife.
I am the most reasonable person here most of the time, along with others, like Al, Darrell, etc. Unlike most conservative sites, you’re unwilling, or unable, to engage anyone who opposes you in seasoned debate on any topic. Your responses are always couched with epithets; a sign of a weak and feeble mind.
MattM
A quick trip over to the NRO will reveal that The Corner has thrown Gentle Ben under the bus. Big time.
The guy’s undeniably a serial plagiarist.
p.lukasiak
So, Bill used a thought experiment.
yes, a thought experiment premised on the idea that blacks are innately criminal. (“You could abort every black baby in this country, and your crime rate would go down.” )
The issue isn’t whether Bennett was advocating genocide, the issue is that his premise was obviously racist.
Ben Domenech quoted (approvingly) a long column that used the exact same racist premise.
Ben a racist. Bill Bennett is a racist. And the fact that John can’t recognize their obvious racism doesn’t make him look so good either….
unreasonablereader
I guess I am not a reasonable reader, because I thought it was pretty clear that he just meant the grenade-throwers like Jane, and wasn’t actually attributing that particular claim to her. Regardless, once he explained to the reasonable readers that didn’t understand, why wasn’t that enough? I can’t believe I read this whole thing…
p.lukasiak
A quick trip over to the NRO will reveal that The Corner has thrown Gentle Ben under the bus. Big time.
and a quick trip over to John’s buddies at Red State will reveal that anyone who points out that NRO has thrown Ben under the bus is banned.
I mean, people who are making perfectly respectful, factual comments about Ben’s plagiarism are being banned left and right….
I wonder if John will find the time to comment about that tendency of his Red State buddies?
Steve
Hahahahaha!
I won’t even bother to compile your greatest hits, as I know you’re not being serious :)
The Other Steve
Old Bill Bennett screwed up big time. Whether or not something was a thought experiment, it was reprehensible to think and morally repugnant to articulate.
If Ben said the same thing, there’s simply no excuse for it.
The Other Steve
I see your projecting your own weaknesses, again.
In more than numerous threads you have articulated bizarre, radical positions all in the name of supposed reasonability. The debates on abortion have been particularly mind numbing.
Then you come into this thread, trying to defend a guy who is not only socially repugnant, but a lying cheat to boot. Yep, the kid’s only 24 years old or whatever, he may not even be aware of what he’s doing. But if we don’t give him a spanking he’ll never understand the difference between right and wrong. If you protect him, he’ll never understand that you don’t go around being a repugnant little scum sucker, and then blaming others for your bad behavior.
I’m not reasonable, I fully admit that. I’m through with reasonability. I put up with you guy’s fucking bullshit during the Clinton years, and I’m not putting up with it now that we have this cocksucker of a President destroying our nation.
If that makes me rabid, shrill, angry, whatever. Fine, so be it. I am. I’m the rabid, radical, angry center and I’m mad as hell and I’m not taking it any more.
The Other Steve
I’m glad to see the National Review recognizes the difference between right and wrong.
There is still hope for our country.
MattM
I mean, people who are making perfectly respectful, factual comments about Ben’s plagiarism are being banned left and right….
Yeah, they’re scrubbing those threads pretty furiously. I mean, I get watching out for your own, but after that craptacular statement Gentle Ben made…RedState would have been much better off to wash their hands of him today, rather than have to do it next week.
ppGaz
Hi ppgaz,
you’re wrong.
I sometimes am. For example, today I was wrong that I’d have an easy day at work. But anyway …
Nothing in your post refers to me or anything I have posted about in recent history. Check your attributions!
Oh, and Bill Bennett is a big fat lying stupid piece of shit.
IMO, of course.
Fledermaus
Wait. There are good Steely Dan albums?!!?
They must be somewhere lying alongside Saddam’s WMDs.
Janus Daniels
Please support this charge; thanks.
John wrote:
“I will note with a little irony that all of the people screaming about Ben’s alleged plagiarism link freely and frequently to Sean Paul at the Agonist, an exposed and admitted plagiarist.”
EL
They finally did, making it clear it was temporary (leave of absence), and with much soft-pedaling and citing his wonderful qualities. The post ended by bashing the critics who exposed him as “lowest of the low.”
The Other Steve
But of course. A conservative would never accept responsibility for his own actions, especially if he was guilty or wrong.
I still remember when Bill Janklow from South Dakota massacred Randolph Scott, a Minnesotan motorcycle rider, on the highway by running a stop sign. It was everybody’s fault but his own. The stop sign should not have been there, someone caused him to run through the sign. He had high blood pressure. Anything he could think of to not accept responsibility for the fact that he broke the law, a law that was there to stop exactly the kind of accident that he caused.
I’m so fucking sick of them all. Whiners, excuses. Fuck ‘em all.
Andrei
Wait…. you are comparing Jane Hamsher to Ann Coulter and Jane is supposed to feel ashamed for the “crap” she said about Ben D? Give us a friggin’ break. Ann Coulter says things easily a thousand times more heinous, cold, slimy and smearing than anything Jane has written in a short period of time lately.
You have truly lost it lost it Cole. Really… you are easily making yourself a pointless read these days.
p.lukasiak
y’know, I’d take them a lot more seriously if they hadn’t been so obnoxious when CBS withdrew the Killian documents story. That was an honest journalistic mistake, but these guys crucified everyone associated with the story—- and did so mercilessly. But when it turns out that one of its own is not merely a serial plagarist, but lied to his own defenders to hide the fact that he was a serial plagarist, they STILL show him mercy, and attack his critics.
Assholes.
RonB
You should be ashamed of yourself for writing that sort of crap.
The Other Steve
This is classic, Josh Marshall
But I can’t manage not to say something about this sign off line in Ben’s apologia post at Redstate …
Ben, thank you. Thank you for taking all these blows on America’s behalf. Thank you lifting passages out of other people’s prose so America could take a breather. Thank you for slandering cherished American heroes for America’s sake.
Most of all, though, Ben, thank you for illustrating Dr. Johnson’s dictum that ‘patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.’
Vainglory, today, thy name is Ben.
The Other Steve
blockquotes within blockquotes don’t work well. s rory!
Broken
Brian:
Maybe we’ll have another civil war in this country, this time between the Left and the Right. If so, we on the right will hunt you like the dogs you are, and go all Muslim on people like Kos. You know, behead him on his own site.
I am beginning to think it is time the anti-Bush Americans agreed that gun control is a bad idea.
ppGaz
I have five bucks that says that any poster to this thread could have lasted longer at WaPo than Ben Demenech.
Even frigging Darrell could have done better.
John Cole
I can’t believe you all are still lying about what Bill Bennett said.
ppGaz
There are different ways to process that remark:
1) If it’s a troll, I’d give it a B-. Which is not all that bad a grade, but it’s certainly not up to the BJ standard established by yourself and other accomplished trolls around here.
2) If it’s genuine, then one has to rhetorically gasp at calling differences of opinion “lies.” If we’re talking about the “abort the black babies” thing. If there’s a lie, it’s that you or any defender of his would presume to “know” his true intent at making the remark. The only way to gauge that, unless you were his wife or brother or closest confidante, would be to assume that the man is a wholesome and innocent and sincere person who is always out there just { aw, shucks } tryin’ to do and say the right things. But you see, that presumtion requires something bordering on mental illness. I’m a pretty good judge of public people, certainly as good as you are, and more experienced by far … and I take the man to be what I said he was upthread. And worse. I think he is the worst kind of dishonest, hypocritical pig of manipulator who knew exactly what kind of reaction his remark would set off, and did it deliberately. I have no reason at all to believe his protestations to the contrary, and even less reason to believe yours, not as any slight to you but simply as a rational matter …. you are basing your assertions entirely on your own views and opinions, as I am. So your take on it is no different from mine in quality or believability, unless there is some relationship between him and you that we don’t know about.
3) It’s early and you aren’t really awake and just made an ill-considered post that has no real connection to anything important, at all.
While I like the idea of #2, because it gives me a chance to rant, again, about how dumb your original thread on that subject was lo these many moons ago, I am inclined to think that #1 or #3 are more likely to be true. And between #1 and #3, I’d go with #3. But that’s just conjecture.
Slide
how about
4) Cole is still shell shocked from the ass whopping he took yesterday from Jane Hamsher ?
Perry Como
Let’s check the tape, Mr. Cole:
“That would be an impossible, ridiculous, and morally reprehensible thing to do, but your crime rate would go down. So, these far-out, these far-reaching, extensive extrapolations are, I think, tricky.”
You are a communications professor, so maybe we can hash this one out:
– Bennett posits that killing all black fetuses would reduce crime – Bennett then says that killing all black fetuses to reduce crime would be morally reprehensible – Bennett then restates that killing all black fetuses would reduce crime
Anything I’m missing there?
Okay, so now let’s extrapolate:
– Killing all caucasian fetuses would reduce crime
The above statement is true, much like Bennett’s statement. Looking at crime statistics, you would reduce a greater amount of crime by killing all caucasian fetuses, since caucasians commit more crimes than blacks. So why didn’t Bennett use caucasian fetuses as his example?
Because he is a racist piece of shit.
John Cole
You have two choices if you continue to insist that Bill Bennet was just acting out of racism when he made the comments:
1.) You are a complete and total idiot.
2.) You are partisan hacks who see an opportunity to lieabout what he said for political gain.
Either way, I don’t have to deal with you anymore. There is a third option- the one Matt Yglesias, Brad DeLong, and anyone with a GED or better took, and that was recognize it as a provacative thought experiment. Based on your behavior and writings here, I am guessing you do not qualify for that route.
Additionally, I took no such shellacking from Jane Hamsher. She accused me of editing a post. Wrong. She apologized.
She accused me of claiming she made WP remarks. I never did. I have explained that repeatedly.
She accused Ben of racism based on selective editing by Steve (“Black Sambo” fame) Gilliard, and then tried to bolster her case by using the writings of another individual. Most people see through the bullshit racism charges.
She then tried to claim I stated she attributed Blanton’s remarks to Ben. I never did. I stated that she was using the writings of someone else to bolster her bullshit charges of bigotry.
That you morons think anything was ‘won’ here is amusing. In short, I am sick of you all. Everything I write here you intentionally miss the point and nitpick around the fringes of an argument, when I clarify you accuse me of lying or changing my position, and you simply make bad faith assumptions about everything I say all the while trying to guess the ulterior motive for whatever I am posting.
For example- is there ANYONE here who honestly thinks Ben Domenech is a racist?
Doubtful- but how many of you defended Jane throughout this thread?
Why? Because she ‘stood up’ to the evil caricatrure of Republicans that you are running around with and that is coloring your every action. That is the only way you can think ANYTHING was won here. Jane made a vicious and unfounded smear and didn’t back down, so somehow you all ‘won.’
Some of you don’t want to debate- you want to shit all over anyone who in your warped minds represents the Republican party. I have merely provided you a forum for your groupthink.
In short, I am done attempting to argue with some of you. When you say stupid things, I am just ignoring you, rather than trying to explain things- you don’t want to discuss things. You want to confirm your own little worldviews.
And Perry Como- a dumber distillation of the Bennett saga could not be found.
DougJ
John, you’re a nice guy and we all like you, but you’ve got to punch your weight and Jane is way out of it. She knocked on your ass and no number of Al Mavivaesque 300 hundred word posts nit-picking at something Perry Como or ppGaz said is going to change that.
I’m putting that in my top ten of ridiculous conservative lies, behind “the insurgency is in its last throes” and ahead of “we have a strong dollar policy”.
Slide
As I can never KNOW what is truly in a man’s heart, I can’t say if Bennet or Domenech are racists. And neither can YOU John. I DO know that what Bennet said was racist and what Domenech said was insensitive and stupid.
Domenech is a dishororable cheat, liar and thief that much we do know, whether he is a racist or not is sorta moot at this point.
Old saying John, live by the sword, die by the sword. Another moral Christian esposing superior “values” exposed for the world to see. Except John of course because you see he has emailed him back and forth and therefore knows him imtimately. Kinda like Bush looking into Putin’s eyes and seeing his soul. Amazing how these Republicans are so intuitive ain’t it?
Par R
Suggest that John move his 10:01AM, 3/25/06 post out of the comment thread and post it on the main site as a stand-alone item.
The faux intellectual posings of many posters here are often quite stunning to behold. Clearly, most of those sort of fools can barely manage to successfully wipe themselves after a dump in the morning.
John Cole
DOUGJ- You are out of your mind. She made a number of assertions, and backed up none of them.
She has made no case that Ben is racist.
She made no case that I actually said she made WP claims.
She made no case that I stated she attributed the Blanton piece to her.
She then apologized for falsely accusing me of editing a post.
Again, you folks think ‘winning’ means just being a vicious hack who doesn’t hack down. It doesn’t. janes whole shtick to generate traffic is to be a ‘fighting lib,’ which means she is in the nasty wing of the blogosphere with Gilliard, tbogg, northrup, atrios, etc. They only win if you define ‘winning’ by being relentless assholes. They don’t win many arguments, though.
Perry Como
I’m confused on which of my points was incorrect in your mind, other than the conclusion. Did Bennett not claim that aborting black fetuses would reduce crime? Twice? He could have picked a multitude of examples to make his point, yet he chose black fetuses.
Meh. This was hashed out on a thread when it happened. Back to snark.
——
Ben Domeonech will be seen as one of the greatest young thinkers of our time. Despite the vile spewings from the Left, he will emerge from this experience stronger than ever. A party that has no ideas can only offer up personal attacks.
We will defend! We will attack! And we will continue!
Blue Neponset
I did, and I defended you too, you obtuse bastard.
Then fucking don’t. In one of my first fucking comments at Balloon Juice I asked you why you bother arguing with those who piss you off the most? Just about everyone over six year old thinks choosing who one argues with is a choice. Apparantly you think it is a compulsion.
So then start asking the groupthinkers among us to leave. If you include me in that group then please man up and ask me to leave because I don’t want to participate on a blog where I am not welcome.
It is up to you John. Do you want Balloon Juice to be like a Protein Wisdom II or a Obsidian Wings II. Don’t fucking blame us for fucking ruining your motherfucking blog by coming here to fucking participate. At least Goldstein has the stones to ban people he doesn’t want. You just complain about the ones you don’t want once every two months or so. Stop dropping hints and do something about it. WHAT THE FUCK?!?
Perry Como
Someone has a case of the Mondays.
The Other Steve
I generally agree that it was a thought experiment. But we can all agree it was a thought experiment that ought not to have been articulated.
It’s kind of like saying, “You know, I think if we were to stick all of the jews is an oven and gas them to death it would probably make the Arabs happy, but it wouldn’t really make the jews happy and as a policy I don’t think anybody could get re-elected on it here in America.”
yep, it’s an interesting thought experiment, but what’s the fucking point and who in their fucking right mind is going to articulate that?
Bill Bennett is probably not be a racist, but what he said was still wrong. To continue to defend him rather than condemning him in the fashion you see fit shows a willful obtusivity on your part as well.
So if you want to be reasonable, simply articulate how you think Bennett shouldn’t have said what he said that doesn’t imply racism.
The Other Steve
It is interesting, when you look at it.
redstate has about 12 comments per thread over there. Mainly because they had to ban 3/4ths of their posters for not towing the redstate line.
Here we’ve got nearly 400.
There is no groupthink here.
The Other Steve
This would actually have some meaning if the Republican Party wasn’t run by Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh, Pat Robertson and a wide variety of other hacks, all of which have a far larger following than someone named Jane Hamsher.
ppGaz
Well, first of all, I have to point out that my Bennett argument has never been grounded in an assertion that he’s a racist. But I have also asserted that there is no evidence that he is not a racist other than his own assertions. Racism is pretty hard to prove, or disprove. Any asshole—and I put Bennett squarely in the category of any asshole, because he is a classic egomaniacal asshole—can say anything and then grin and wink and say “But, I’m not a racist.” Why stop there? Why not add, “Hell, I’ve never even personally drug a nigger behind my truck, or nothin’.” The defense is worthless. Worthless.
Bennett, however, quite definitely, and provably, is a lying manipulator who deigns to make a living pretending to be morally superior to other people. For that reason alone, I consider him to be a piece of despicable feces not even worthy of my heel. And there is no way that I am going to come to the defense of a man like that on this racism charge based just on “innocent until proven guilty” reasoning. You know what? I’m not a racist either, and you couldn’t pay me enough fucking money to go on the radio and say what he said. Why? Because there is no reason on earth to cause that kind of psychic injury to innocent listeners just in order to make some stupid arcane point on a stupid fat pig’s radio show, that’s why.
Bennet is a turd, and this defense of him is a bunch of crap.
I mean that quite literally.
Darrell
I think because he occassionally displays a sense of humor, most people overlook that DougJ is a drooling whackjob
She has made no case that Ben is racist.
She made no case that I actually said she made WP claims.
She made no case that I stated she attributed the Blanton piece to her.
She then apologized for falsely accusing me of editing a post
Yet you lefty halfwits run around screaming around like 7th graders that Jane Hamsher “kicked John’s ass!” “She sure showed him”. Pathetic
Steve
He repeated a smear against Coretta Scott King that was commonly used as code by the KKK and other racists back in the day.
Are you going to argue that the KKK wasn’t being racist when they tried to discredit Dr. and Mrs. King as communists?
Ben’s only possible defense, and it may well be true, is that he was too young to understand the historical context of that particular smear, to know that it was a racist smear.
But to say Jane has made “no case” is just absurd. Typical of the modern Republican who wants to believe that there is no longer any racism in America, except for racism against white people, but still absurd.
Darrell
Oh my, he called her a “communist”.. and every good lefty knows that’s “code” for racists. Just like when Dems tell us tax cuts and changes to welfare are code for racists. Anything for a good smear, right aholes?
Darrell
Typical of the modern Democrat who dishonestly smears Republicans as racist without basis. Fucking pricks, but this is the modus operandi for MOST leftist Dems. Oops, I forgot, accusing someone of being affiliated with the Communist party “proves” that such accusations are racist.. right whackjobs?
Steve
Right, as if I said “communist” is code for racism in all cases. You just can’t help but lie, can you Darrell?
It’s an undeniable historical fact that the KKK and other racists spent years and years using “communist” as their smear of choice against Dr. and Mrs. King. When someone echoes KKK smears on the occasion of her funeral, it doesn’t take much of a logical leap to call it racism. It takes deep denial of both history and reality to pretend that it couldn’t possibly have been racism, though.
Darrell
You know, Dems are so quick to throw their smears of racism against Repubs.. it’s who they are. Yet it’s Dems who field outright racists such as Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson for president.. Ever heard a peep of objection to those racists from Dem rank and file? No?
I’ve never read a truly racist comment from a conservative on this blog.. if it occurred, it’s not common. However, just a couple of months back when Michelle Malkin was involved in a controversy, there were so many racist comments from the left that they were forced to delete them they were so vile. “Back to fucky sucky American navy man in Phillipines you brown whore” and similar type bile coming from the left on Balloon Juice threads. And there was quite a bit of it
The racism on the left is pervasive, and far greater than racism on the right. Yet it’s the left who throws the race card at any perceived slight to dishonestly smear their political opponents. Like I said, it’s who they are
Perry Como
In Ben’s defense, he was probably just repeating what somewhat else wrote.
Darrell
Really? I thought it was the Kennedy administration who ordered wiretaps on King for suspected communist ties.
Furthermore, did King receive support from the communist party and/or communist groups? Was he affilitated with them? I honestly don’t know, but if he was, it would make your smears even more dishonest, wouldn’t you agree?
ppGaz
Shorter Darrell (shorter Darrell’s entire year that I have been here):
You lefty halfwits!
You and John and Stormy and Tall Dave and scs all truly deserve each other, Darrell. Seriously.
Why don’t you guys start a blog? Oh wait, Tall Dave already tried that …........
Steve
Furthermore, did King receive support from the communist party and/or communist groups? Was he affilitated with them? I honestly don’t know, but if he was, it would make your smears even more dishonest, wouldn’t you agree?
Shorter Darrell: I’m going to bring up something totally irrelevant, and then speculate that maybe the KKK was right all along.
I suspect Ben Domenech, like Darrell, “honestly didn’t know” either, but it didn’t stop him from tossing a cheap smear, to besmirch a great American who had just passed away.
This is my favorite part. Yes, it’s true, the Democratic rank and file has no issue with Al Sharpton whatsoever! My Democratic friends tell me every day how much they admire the man, and how they agree with every word out of his mouth!
It’s unsurprising that proven plagiarist Darrell has little intelligent thought of his own to contribute to the discussion.
Darrell
How is it irrelevant? You claimed that accusations of “communist” against King were code for racist. That was your point. So if the Kennedy administration ordered wiretaps based on suspected communist ties, their suspicions must have been rooted in racism, right Steve? Entirely relevant, no matter how much dishonestly pretend otherwise.
RonB
You didn’t even make it a sentence without blowing your whole theory, could you?
Darrell
Hey, where are the rest of the lefty whackjobs who like to run around on every thread claiming how they “kicked their asses” intellectually to every conservative or moderate that doesn’t agree with their extremist worldviews. We’ve probably got about 20 or 30 examples of this lefty tendency on this thread alone. Real deep thinkers you lefties are
Darrell
Ron, let me spell it out for you since you don’t appear particularly bright. Dems are more accepting of racists. Therefore, they field racist candidates like Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson and Cynthia McKinney for president and congress.
Blue Neponset
If we are so fucking stupid Darrell what does that make you? Why the hell do you bother arguing with us if we are such fukcing nitwits?
Steve
It’s just a funny coincidence how in Darrell’s world, the only racists happen to be people who are racist against whites.
In the slightly more nuanced version of Darrell’s world, people who are racist against black conservatives also get added to the list.
Let me propose a simple test. We can call it the Darrell Test.
Darrell, do you think there was a racist appeal in Reagan’s choice to kick off his 1980 campaign in Philadelphia, Mississippi, with an appeal to “states’ rights”?
If you answer incorrectly, I’m afraid you just might not be qualified as an authority on the subject of racism.
Darrell
Did I ever say or infer that? No? Well then Steve, you certainly have a ‘solid’ point there. Next strawman please
ppGaz
Us “stupid lefties” are a plural, Darrell.
But there’s only one of you. Even in the world of stupid righties, there is only one Darrell. You are one of a kind.
You must be the reason why John Cole puts up this blog, though. Notice how he never slaps you around, but calls your adversaries names and generally shits on them at every opportunity?
Savor it. He never slaps you around, despite the moronic and constant refrain of Gop-defense you put up here, in contrast to his constant “The GOP just can’t piss my off any more than they have” observations. And yet, he never slaps you. Us, he slaps every hour of every day.
How to figger it?
Are you paying him for this venue, or …?
ppGaz
correction: “my any more” = “me any more”
Darrell
You’ll notice that I usually back up my assertions, with you know, examples and logic vs personal attacks and rantings over how “you got your ass kicked” type of drool coming from the left.
But let me put your mind at ease ppgaz.. there can be no doubt that John Cole disagrees with and probably cringes over much I write. He is a moderate/lib ok? But because he’s not an extremist loon like so many here, you guys crucify him over stupid sh*t because he doesn’t follow your talking points. So much for leftist ‘tolerance’ I suppose
The Other Steve
I gotta say… Huh?
I’ve been reading Balloon Juice for quite a while, and I don’t recall any Malkin threads and I most certainly don’t recall any comments like that here.
It’s curious. Frankly, I don’t think Ben Douchebag’s crime was being a racist. I most certainly could overlook any implication there. Certainly calling King any name at the time of her death was pretty contemptable and shows a deep lack of respect for the dead.
But I’m absolutely baffled by these Darrell accusations. How can he show outrage for people who call him racist, when he’s so willing to call everybody else racist?
Can you please give me some links to these supposed Malkin smears here at balloon juice? Thanks!
Brian
But you never seem to remember what it is I’ve actually said that bothers you, or seems so “mind numbing”. If you’ll recall, my suggestion was to give it to the democratic process, which to you and others like you was summed up as cruel. Well, yesterday I saw that a backlash is being formed against South Dakota’s new abortion law, and the spokeswoman for Planned Parenthood said that she doesn’t want to take it to the courts to fight. Rather, she wants to take it to the voters, because she’s confident that her side would win. That sounds eerily familiar to what I said. But, good liberal that you are, couldn’t imagine such a thing, because the public just can’t be trusted with such things. An army of Ruth Ginsburgs are the only ones who can handle this truth.
My positions turn out to be pretty reasonable and on-the-money after all. And, as for Ben, I haven’t been here to defend any plagiarism of his. You are typically mischaracterizing me to put me into some sterotype of conservatives that you hold, I suppose (just like what you’d do with Bill Bennett’s comments). Your anger is getting the best of you.
The thing about the Left is that it redefined “racism”, and has literally removed any meaning from the word. It’s become a cliche, like “sexist”, or “homophobe”; any action on the part of a person or group that differs with long-held beliefs about the so-called rights of another group (minorities, women, Muslims…...well, pretty much any group that is not white males or Christians) receives the appropriate label.
Last night, here in SoCal, I saw footage of high school kids skipping out of high school to “protest” anti-immigration laws. What was their opposition to any law? Well, of course it’s RACIST. That’s what it is, so all of you who support it, now you know what you are and who you’re associated with. You’re just a descendant of the KKK, that’s what you are. The truth is that some fucking Latino leftists whose job is to rabble-rouse and agitate for the status quo, procured a ready-made protest march using kids who can’t even vote to protest something they don’t understand by doing something they’re happy to do (cut school) to fly a flag (Mexico’s) in the face of us “racists”. It’s the Chicano movement all over again. And they’re setting up to do it in downtown L.A. again today.
It’s all political theater. Give opposing views a handy label, raise a sense of danger by flooding the streets and threatening to shut down the racist America, get loudmouthed spokepeople in front of the cameras (the proteges of Sharpton, Jackson, Farrakhan), and get it on TV. It’s all so canned, predictable, cliche, and pathetic. No debate of ideas welcome here, so move along.
Sort of like debate with lefties on Balloon Juice.
Steely Dan’s inarguably one of the best rock bands ever. They had a subversive jazz influence to their music that was beautiful to admire. If you don’t like them, go back to your Poison collection.
Par R
I must take exception to the characterization of Steve and ppGaz as “slimy slugs.” That comment was very clearly an insult to all slugs in the world.
Darrell
It happened. There were so many racist comments from the left that Tim and John had to delete them. And they were ugly… really ugly. To my knowledge this has never happened, at least not to that extent, with conservative commenters. But you lefties are more tolerant, right?
Steve
It’s just a funny coincidence how in Darrell’s world, the only racists happen to be people who are racist against whites.
Did I ever say or infer that? No? Well then Steve, you certainly have a ‘solid’ point there. Next strawman please
Yep, actually, the three people you brought up as examples of modern racists all just happen to be black people. Like I said, just a funny coincidence.
Anyway, don’t miss the opportunity to take the quiz!
If you answer incorrectly, I’m afraid you just might not be qualified as an authority on the subject of racism.
Brian
That’s a very good question. It was directed at Darrell, I know, but since I tend to be on his side of the argument, I’ll have to consider it for myself. I guess I’d have to ask a question in return:
Have any minds ever been changed on this site? Or does it always remain in this uncivil tone that resembles a food fight?
Blue Neponset
Sort of like debate with lefties on Balloon Juice.
So why do you do it then, Brian?
I have asked Darrell and John pretty much the same question today and I haven’t gotten an answer from either yet. I have had more than enough of being blamed for the downfall of Balloon Juice. If we Lefties have made this blog such a fever swamp then John should clear us out. If we Lefties are too stupid or ignorant to put up a good argument then why do you, Darrell and John attempt to discuss anything with us?
The only conclusion I can come up with is you like to complan about it. If you want to have a debate of ideas then you might want to look elsewhere because the comment section of Balloon Juice is apparantly no better tahn a liberal echo chamber.
ppGaz
Sorry, no dice. No comprendo. If he disagrees with and cringes at what you write, why doesn’t he say so? He is not exactly a wallflower, a shy person. He has written many a blurb decrying the sorry state of the GOP and the job they are doing, and yet here you are, defending them breezily, and he says nothing.
But if we speak “lefty”—you know, a contrasting point of view—we get raw sewage for breakfast.
Whassup with that, Darrell? What do you have on John? What don’t we know? Is your character just written by one of John’s classes as a project, as a foil for the comments section?
It makes no sense. In that regard, it’s like you.
capelza
First off, so late in the game…I have come to realise that there is no “shame” in the bloggy world.
Secondly…am trying to catch up reading all over, because I missed this whole kerfuffle over Augustine (who I didn’t know was this Ben boy until yesterday)....Red State is acting like an abused woman, taking back her abuser and vehemently attacking those who dare question him…he’s really sorry, he’ll never do it again…until the next time…rinse, repeat.
Brian
I saw these paragraphs from Mike Krempasky’s recent pice on Red State. I thought it adequately summed up the majority of voices here on Balloon Juice. Allow me to share it with you:
Our critics can raise their glasses and toast to what they think is success – tearing down a flawed conservative. But therein lies their greatest weakness: destroying a conservative is not to destroy conservatism. And while they put all their energy and venom into this campaign, it is worth remembering that for all the noise – they have yet to present a real alternative to an America that rests on the foundation of freedom, free markets and family. Against that, the only answer they have is yet another personal attack.
Like I said yesterday—you won a battle, but you’ll never win the war of ideas we’re winning. You have no ideas. You only have labels, epithets, insults, and cruelty. You literally have embraced hatred as a cause.
Blue Neponset
Yes, I have changed my mind about John. When I first stumbled upon B-J I figured he was no more than a cookie cutter conservative. I have come to find out he has a wide spectrum of view on many issues.
I have also changed my mind about Darrell. I used to think he was just really damn annoying, but then I realized that without Darrell here I wouldn’t have any idea what the loyal Limbagh listerner thinks and that is a world view I am not familiar with.
I haven’t changed my mind about you yet. I hope I do.
The tone ebbs and flows like anything else. Also like jsut about anything else you reap what you sow. If you want a more civil discourse I suggest you start following the golden rule instead of throwing out insults and blanket dismissals.
VidaLoca
Darrell,
late to the party, but I’ll offer this w/r/t your question here:
Red-baiting has been used against progressive movements in America ever since there were Reds, beginning at the end of WWI. One of the most successful practitioners of it was J. Edgar Hoover, who made a career out of gathering information against any group or individual who protested against political or economic conditions—of which, in the Depression, there were many. This, coupled with the dossiers he kept on politicians as well, built his career: it made him an asset to political leaders of both parties; although they tried to keep him at arm’s length they were both unable and unwilling to get rid of him.
Hoover hated the civil rights movement because he thought it was subversive. He hated King because he was the leading figure in the movement and sought to discredit him by claiming that he was a Communist to anyone that would listen, though he (and nobody since him) was unable to prove it. It was not, however, for lack of trying.
The Kennedys didn’t like Hoover but they didn’t want him spilling the information he had on them. Furthermore, their support of the CR movement and King was tepid at best: they didn’t need the Dixiecrat wing of the party fighting their reforms and the Dixiecrats were dead set against civil rights. So they (RFK specifically) underwrote Hoover’s spying on King and others.
The southern white establishment would have called King a vegetarian if that would have helped break him; they called him a Communist because of the historical success of Red-baiting in suppressing social movements. He was no more a Communist than you are. Their problem was that their system of rule was fundamentally unjust; their goal was to create a distraction that would prevent close examination of it. Hence the historic tie between the claim of King’s Communism and the white southern power structure of the Jim Crow era.
As for the Kennedys, they weren’t racists strictly speaking, they just wanted to run the country and if it meant keeping Jim Crow in place they were willing to compromise with Hoover on that point.
If you’re interested, most of this is from Taylor Branch’s biography of King, which is a really good read on him and the Kennedys.
Brian
Ben’s taking a leave of absence, and Red State has some very sincere criticism of Ben’s actions. They expect him to have an extended stay in the wilderness.
But to you, of course, no one can be redeemed if he’s a conservative. Permanent banishment from society is the only acceptable remedy.
ppGaz
Aw, shove it your dirtpipe, Brian. This is just boilerplate righty noise machine crap.
What happened here is that a liar and plagiarist—not a “flawed conservative” but a dishonest defender of neocon and patently un-conservative government and policy, all in the name of partisan interest—got exposed and forced to own up. That’s it.
“Flawed?” If you want a place where you can invent your own spinexicon and paint a rose parallel reality, this ain’t it. Nobody around here is falling for it. Can even one of you sorry bastards ever call a spade a spade?
Besides John, I mean. At least he can. What’s your excuse?
Steve
Like I said yesterday—you won a battle, but you’ll never win the war of ideas we’re winning. You have no ideas. You only have labels, epithets, insults, and cruelty. You literally have embraced hatred as a cause.
Yes, sponsor more gay marriage amendments, please. Since you brought up a post from RedState, here is a post I saw there myself, from one of their most frequent posters:
Now quit kidding yourself.
ppGaz
Oh, let’s not forget flag burning, and zygote-pain legislation, and all the other great “ideas” that come from this bunch of fakes we have running the government.
capelza
Brian….maybe you aren’t reading the same Red State I am….
And please, none of the crying puppy bullshit:
I send my kids to their room when they try that tack on me…
I have a lot of respect for the real conservatives, a few of whom had their loyalties questioned over there because they were truly questioning and wanted accountability. Don’t confuse conservative with wingnut. There is a world of difference.
Brian
That’s not an answer to my question. Instaed, it is the canned defense of every lefty commenter here. “Stop me, before I kill again”. It’s my fault you’re uncivil. I keep my comments quite civil here, in casxe you never noticed. If I get testy with anyone, it’s in response to being attacked by another commenter. I’m not your rug to walk on, pal.
That might kindly be called a back-handed compliment of Darrell, rather than an answer to my question. I too appreciate Cole’s posts, and always have. I meant in the commenter community here are any minds changed in a positive manner.
Does that help clarify things for you?
Darrell
Good post Vida. I’m curious though, is it fact that King did not have support from and/or real ties to communist organizations? Or was it 100% crap to discredit him?
In the 60’s after the Cuban missile threat, there do seem to be legit concerns over communist ties at that time
Steve
Again, Brian, you can’t possibly be serious about this statement, right?
Brian
Blue Neponset, you were talking about insults and blanket dismissals? In your midst, here’s one perfect example. This guy takes the cake. It’s all he’s ever capable of, and he’s fairly representative of the commenters here, at least those on your side of the argument.
He wouldn’t know a real conservative if it kicked him in the head, which may happen sooner rather than later.
Brian
Never did sponsor it, never would sponsor it. How is that amendment going, by the way?
And you keep posting that quote from a RS commenter. So fucking what? Is that all you got? Are we all going to go on fishing expeditions for callous comments from other sites? What does it prove?
Blue Neponset
No. You seem to have just accused me of not answering your questions. You certainly don’t have to believe me, but I did try to answer your questions.
Brian
I have a life. It’s a beautiful day here in L.A., and I’m going to go out and enjoy it. Maybe heckle pro-illegal immigrant Latino protesters in downtown. Or, open my water hose and watch the water from liberal San Francisco run out and into the drain. That always puts a smile on my face.
Catch ya later.
Steve
Probably about the same thing as your argument that a bunch of blog comments demonstrate that conservatives have won the war of ideas.
Darrell
Bullseye
Brian
They weren’t answers in a sincere way. They were sarcastic.
VidaLoca
Brian,
Speaking just for myself, if you mean fundamentally changed—um, no. However, my conversation with you the other day made me realize that not all people who identify themselves as conservative buy into the religious views of the fundamentalists. More generally, I’ve gotten the idea from hanging around here that there are some conservatives who still harbor some suspicions about the growth of statism in the way the government operates, which is a point where I think liberals are extremely weak.
Two exmples, FWIW.
Blue Neponset
If you don’t like the way ppGazz responds to you and you think he is representative of the rest of the Lefties here, again I ask, why do you come here?
Blue Neponset
LOL, I don’t know how you can read my mind from so far away but I think your mind reading device is on the blink because I did make a sincere effort to answer your questions.
PS: This response is both sincere and sarcastic, but YMMV.
Steve
Anyone else surprised that Darrell has dodged the question?
If you answer incorrectly, I’m afraid you just might not be qualified as an authority on the subject of racism.
Color me unsurprised, that’s for sure. Wouldn’t want a stray thought to