Richard Cohen pens a piece in the WaPo today about a girl in LA who took algebra six times, failed each time, and then dropped out of High School:
I am haunted by Gabriela Ocampo.
Last year, she dropped out of the 12th grade at Birmingham High School in Los Angeles after failing algebra six times in six semesters, trying it a seventh time and finally just despairing over ever getting it. So, according to the Los Angeles Times, she “gathered her textbooks, dropped them at the campus book room and, without telling a soul, vanished from Birmingham High School.”
Gabriela, this is Richard: There’s life after algebra.
Richard then goes on and says a couple silly things, things which sent PZ Myers ballistic:
That’s Richard Cohen, who is supposedly the ‘liberal’ columnist for the Washington Post, giving advice to a young girl.
It’s outrageous.
Because Richard Cohen is ignorant of elementary mathematics, he can smugly tell a young lady to throw away any chance being a scientist, a technician, a teacher, an accountant; any possibility of contributing to science and technology, of even being able to grasp what she’s doing beyond pushing buttons. It’s Richard Cohen condescendingly telling someone, “You’re as stupid as I am; give up.” And everything he said is completely wrong.
I am not going to excuse Cohen’s glorification of ignorance, if you will, but I do not think that was the real point of the column. The point of the column is that should someone be condemned to a life of, well, diminished earnings and expectations, simply because they are incapable of performing algebra? From the National Center of Secondary Education and Transition:
The number of students in our nation who are not completing school is particularly alarming in today’s society because there are few employment opportunities that pay living wages and benefits for those who have neither completed a high school education nor acquired necessary basic skills. On average, youth who drop out are more likely than others to experience negative outcomes such as unemployment, underemployment, and incarceration. High school dropouts are less likely to be employed than high school graduates (U.S. Department of Labor, 2003). Nearly 80% of individuals in prison do not have a high school diploma (Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention, 1995). According to the National Longitudinal Transition Study of special education students, the arrest rates of youth with disabilities who dropped out were significantly higher than for those who had graduated (Wagner et al., 1991). Three to five years after dropping out, the cumulative arrest rate for youth with serious emotional disturbance was 73% (Wagner, 1995).
Students who do not complete school cost taxpayers billions of dollars in lost revenues, welfare, unemployment, crime prevention, and prosecution (Joint Economic Committee, 1991). Approximately 47% of high school dropouts are employed compared to 64% of high school graduates not in college (National Center for Education Statistics, 1995). Students who graduate from high school earn an average of $9,245 more per year than students who do not complete school (Employment Policy Foundation, 2001). In light of the negative consequences of dropout for society and individuals, facilitating school completion for all students must be a priority for educators, administrators, and policymakers across the country.
In short, we know that people who fail to graduate High School will be at greater risk for a whole host of negative future outcomes, most importantly diminished job expectations and financial stability. I think that was more the point of Cohen’s article- that rather than helping this child, we have permanently disabled her with the label of high school dropout- simply because she was not able to pass a math class. I do not think that Richard Cohen was trying to dissuade Gabriela from becoming a scientist, as Myers seems to suggest, as I think her inability to perform basic algebra already precluded that possibility. I think his point was that she now has a wide degree of other professional opportunities permanently closed off to her- even without algebra skills, she may very well have gone on to college and found an intellectual pursuit more fitting to her natural abilities.
That was Richard’s point, I think, and it is one worth considering.
*** Update ***
More here, with this nugget:
Seidel did not appear to make a difference with Gabriela Ocampo. She failed his class in the fall of 2004 — her sixth and final semester of Fs in algebra.
But Gabriela didn’t give Seidel much of a chance; she skipped 62 of 93 days that semester.
After dropping out, Gabriela found a $7-an-hour job at a Subway sandwich shop in Encino. She needed little math because the cash register calculated change. But she discovered the cost of not earning a diploma.
“I don’t want to be there no more,” she said, her eyes watering from raw onions, shortly before she quit to enroll in a training program to become a medical assistant.
Could passing algebra have changed Gabriela’s future? Most educators would say yes.
Algebra, they insist, can mean the difference between menial work and high-level careers. High school students can’t get into most four-year colleges without it. And the U.S. Department of Education says success in algebra II and other higher-level math is strongly associated with college completion.
Missing 62 of 93 days? At this point, my level of sympathy drops to almost nonexistent.
*** Update ***
There are no original thoughts in the blogosphere. Or titles to blog posts, either. Kevin says what I was thinking, essentially, and with a frighteningly similar title.
Ekim
As a teacher of 30 years I think there must be more than meets the eye for a student of normal intelligence to be unable to pass algebra. Perhaps there is a learning disability, or there are other factors which could be mitigated. First year algebra should not be beyond the normal expectations of any educated human being.
Doctor Gonzo
How about we remove the stigma of “high school dropout” instead? It seems silly for me to continue to dumb down education given how far behind the rest of the world the U.S. is already. While there are some people who have difficulties with algebra, I don’t think that removing it from the requirements for high school graduation makes sense. What simpler math is there?
If I had my way, calculus would be required for graduation, there would be a whole lot fewer high school graduates, and those who didn’t graduate would not have a stigma attached.
Kurt Gehlen
Someone who fails algebra six times clearly has little aptitude for science and probably should be discouraged from attempting to follow that path. Or at least not encouraged. That doesn’t mean there aren’t other paths she might have successfully followed with a high school degree. Thats probably the point Richard was trying to make.
HankP
A high school diploma shouldn’t be an attendance certificate. Using this logic, let’s lower the standards until everyone graduates, then we won’t have to worry about bad socioeconomic outcomes! Why limit it to algebra – what if they can’t do arithmetic?
This is why 50% of Americans now attend college – a high school diploma doesn’t mean much anymore. I know that everyone I knew in high school didn’t have problems with math because they were incapable, they had problems because they didn’t work at it and their parents didn’t care. That’s the real source of the educational problems in this country, and we’re quickly heading to a sub-third world level of education because of it.
Steve
I think you are right about this piece, I think Atrios was wrong, and I think no one fails algebra six times without a learning disability. This is someone who should have gotten help, not simply left to drop out because she couldn’t meet a requirement.
Jaybird
Perhaps we could give everyone Master’s Degrees in Communication Studies.
Then, when an employer asks what schooling a person has had, they can either say what schooling that they’ve received *OR* they can say that they have a Master’s Degree in Communication Studies.
No stigma apart from having to tell people that you flip burgers but you have a Master’s Degree!
Marcus Wellby
Amen. Algebra is about much, much more than simply math. It is about learning to think, using logic, solving complex problems — that is the lifelong benefit of algebra. The math, to most, is secondary.
Failing 6 times? Are you kidding me? There is something mpre going on here. I don’t expect everyone to ace algebra — but if you fail 6 times you either have the worst teachers in the country or are borderline retarded.
Marcus Wellby
Between some on the far left wanting to make all schooling a never fail excerise in esteem building and some on the right to make it all bible study, you’ve got to wonder if there isn’t some bipartisan conspiracy to make us the dumbest nation on earth.
jaime
Quick without googling: Recite the pythagorean theorem. You’ll never be scienctists!!!! Stupid liberal failures.
Vladi G
Well, yes. Look, chances are that if you can’t pass Algebra (you don’t have to ace it, just pass it), after six semesters, then you’re either really stupid, incredibly lazy, or like Ekim said, you have some sort of learning disability. Something tells me there are very few people who have the skills to compete in the job marketplace, yet couldn’t get something more than an F in algebra after taking it six times. So I question the idea that this girl could have gone on to college but for that dreaded algebra class. All we know is she somehow made it to her senior year without ever passing algebra, but I’m gonna go out on a limb and say that, for whatever reason, she probably wasn’t an honors student in the rest of her classes.
That’s why we have art schools. But I’m not sure we should encourage high schools to graduate kids who can’t pass a pretty basic math class (and I’m not sure it’s even a requirement for a diploma). I know I wouldn’t want my alma mater to accept a student who can’t understand algebra….unless he can handle the rock and shoot three pointers. :)
My question is, where the hell are they teaching algebra as a one semester class?
Don Surber
She takes algebra six times and flunks.
Face it, she is not rocket scientist material
Perry Como
The question doesn’t matter. The answer is always “God”.
Marcus Wellby
Back in my day we had Algebra I one semester and Algebra II the next. Then it was on to geomatry, trig and calc. Oh, good times, good times.
Anyhow, i think its all the “new math” to Mr. Cohen.
SeesThroughIt
You might just be on to something with this.
Jaime: The Pythagorean Theorem is A^2 + B^2 = C^2. It’s the quadratic equation that I can never remember. Mercifully, I don’t have to anymore. (I really didn’t like math and in fact, I very nearly failed algebra my freshman year of college because I hadn’t taken algebra since 8th grade and had forgotten almost all of it. I ended up taking calculus to fulfill my math requirement. The derivative of x^2 is 2x, and the integral of 2x is x^2. Yay, calculus!)
Kimmitt
This was my first thought, and it’s telling that Cohen couldn’t come up with it, despite the fact that he “can’t stop thinking” about the situation.
scs
I think the way math and math-type science is taught in is all wrong. I really think that it is taught in a way meant to discourage people rather than encourage people. Math and science text books use this archane geek-speak to teach, geared to boys who love video games and science fiction, instead of putting it in plain language and giving more examples. I almost think this is done as a screening method, on purpose, to make math difficult to people who do not think in this specific way and to weed them out.
I did not do well in math in highschool as well. That did effect the rest of my life because those bad math and science grades probably prevented me from going to an elite of a school as I could have. However when I got to college, I started to do really well in math and I think it was because I changed my learning methods. I learned the value of individual instruction and practice and started bugging my teachers and teaching assistants for explanations to my questions and made them give me many examples. I found the best way for me to learn was not to start with some convoluted theory and then assuming I would automatically understand all the trick variations in the problems. Instead I found it best to get examples of each variations, memorize how to do them and after I gained a little familiarty with the problems, THEN I understood the theory more. I think that is a more common way to learn and I think if a lot more people were taught that way more people would do well in math. However, does the science community really want people to enter techinical fields who think like that? Probably not.
John Cole
Look- many of you are wading into an age-old debate about what the purpose of an education is, and that is fine. But from a practical standpoint, that is not what many if not most employers use a degree for- they use it much like colleges use SAT scores and a HS diploma- as a criteria for admission. If you do not understand what I am talking about, ask 100 English majors who have graduated from college what they are doing, and probably 80 out of 100 are not doing anything related to their field, 10 are going on for advanced degrees in English, and others are going for advanced degrees in something else- probably law.
There is nothing to state that had this girl graduated from high school, she would have graduated from college. But we do know that without graduating from high school, she is consigned to significantly fewer opportunities.
I am sensitive to both sides of the argument, but the question that needs to be resolved is did the educational system serve Gabriela, a girl who according the information we have here, did everything she could to fulfill her obligations.
I am not taking a side, just I don’t think that PZ Meyers is really addressing what Cohen thought he was discussing.
Gray
“How about we remove the stigma of “high school dropout” instead?”
Hmm, I’m very much against discrimination and for removing prejudiced stigmata, but still not sure if that’s a good idea, Doc. Don’t you think many kids would see this as a sign that high school is not so important? And you can’t easily change the way those human resources employees judging people. On the other hand, if you manage to be successful in your job, nobody will diss you because of your missing high school degree anymore. But starting a carreer is easier with the degree, for sure.
jg
a2+b2=c2
Amen and hallelujah!
It ain’t about putting numbers together, it teaches you how to solve problems. How to ignore the unnescessary info and deal with the inportenat data.
Lines
A^2 + B^2 = C^2, but I can also take Maxwell’s Equations and dervie Gauss’s Law and others from it, so I don’t count.
But I am liberal, and I suppose I’m elite, and I’m intellectual.
If I become Republican do I have to hate myself?
John Cole
I am not sure why some of you seem to think I am advocating removing Algebra from graduation requirements.
I am not.
Gray
“I am not taking a side, just I don’t think that PZ Meyers is really addressing what Cohen thought he was discussing.”
For me it’s boring to simply state that someone is right, but just to make John happy: Yup, that’s my opinion, too. Good point. Thx.
And, btw, is there something like a mathematical dyslexia? If “yes”, how is it called?
Lines
scs, people like you make me shake my head and wonder why we have to tolerate people such as yourself in our math classes.
Your kind of ignorance drags down the average so far that its just sad. There should be “math for republican girls” classes that you can take. In it, you can talk about the equations for sin and the heat exchange in hell for liberals.
srv
The system wasted alot of Gabrielas time. That is what the system does for alot of people in HS. Perhaps she has a LD, but HS doesn’t fix those, so it doesn’t really matter.
And HS doesn’t just waste time for those who are less studious. This is what my cousin (142 IQ) had to do to get his GED at 16 and go to college – he had to find a loophole in the policies himself that if he was withdrawn for “home schooling” he could take the GED.
If we had all the money in the world to waste, we could fill schools with remedial and LD workers and provide diverse AP selections for the smart. But we don’t, so let them move on and leave HS to the rest who need it.
jg
In massachusetts you can sign your kid up for Russian math classes on saturdays. In Russia and Germany I think they teach algebra early. They don’t make you do addition and subtraction for 6 years then assault you with algebra out of the blue. Its gradual and it works much better than our system where kids can opt out (I know people who avoided algebra all through high school. These people canot see past the surface of an issue, I shit you not).
But they’re well educated and could probably do well in any field just falling back on their education.
DougJ
I agree with your point about this John. You explain it pretty well. But Cohen’s ignorance here is inexcusable. He must be the worst columnist at any major newspaper.
Perry Como
That would be “physics for republican girls”. It would require math of course, but the answer would still always be “God”.
Vladi G
We had a year of algebra, a year of geometry, a year of algebra 2, a semester of trigonometry, a semester of pre-calculus, and a year of calculus. I know that’s five years, but you only into calculus if you started algebra in the eighth grade (or, I suppose, took a class over the summer).
rilkefan
JC, it’s “Myers” not “Meyers” on the site.
Gray
Cohen got one point wrong: “Most of math can now be done by a computer or a calculator.”
Sry, but this is nonsense. If you’re handicapped in math, you won’t be able to translate a problem into a formula. And computers or calculators can’t help you with that.
Tom
Two points:
I remember that series of articles in the LA Times. What Cohen fails to reccount is Gabriela’s lack of attendance:
“Seidel once brokered multimillion-dollar business deals but left a 25-year law career, hoping to find a more fulfilling job and satisfy an old desire to teach. Nothing, however, prepared him for period five.
“I got through a year of Vietnam,” he said, “so I tell myself every day I can get through 53 minutes of fifth period…. I don’t know if I am making a difference with a single kid.”
Seidel did not appear to make a difference with Gabriela Ocampo. She failed his class in the fall of 2004 — her sixth and final semester of Fs in algebra.
But Gabriela didn’t give Seidel much of a chance; she skipped 62 of 93 days that semester.”
and the general apathy by the parents in Birmingham High School. As a result of these series of articles, the school’s administration did what school administrations do best- called a meeting to discuss the problem. Of a student body population of 3,700 only a dozen parents attended.
What you have is a formula for failure- a child who won’t attend school and parents who don’t care.
DougJ
One more point: the problem here isn’t the system, the problem is that her teachers didn’t use their discretion to just pass her the third time through.
jg
Children of parents who sat in class and said, ‘why do I need to learn this?, when will I use this?’ end up not learning it either. Too bad they need a valid application of everything they are taught or they ignore it.
Vladi G
Because it’s the logical conclusion of this statement:
Fine, consider it. But if after consideration, you think he’s right, then essentially you’re arguing for the removal of algebra from graduation requirements. Even worse, you seem to be arguing for it’s removal from college admission requirement, as a high school diploma is essentially worthless these days.
The argument is that she is stigmatized because she couldn’t graduate. Because she couldn’t graduate, she can’t get a good job. Well, what’s the solution? Either let her graduate, or remove the stigma. The latter sure as hell isn’t going to happen, so the only alternative is the former. So if you’re not arguing for that, for what exactly are you arguing?
Perry Como
I’m not so sure about that. The other day I had to solve for a point on a curve so I just whipped my calculator out and used the linear interpolation button.
Krista
I think that the way they do it in Quebec is good. After you graduate from high school, you have the option of going to CEGEP (Collège d’enseignement général et professionnel), which offers two-year pre-university programs or three-year professional programs. They’re publicly funded, so they’re super-cheap (sometimes free, I think) for Quebec residents, and a lot of students use the opportunity to move beyond the generalized education offered by high school, and can explore various educational and career paths without wasting a lot of money. That way, when if they do go on to university, they’ll be a lot more clear as to their direction, and there aren’t as many people who come out with a degree who still have no clue what they want to do.
Digital Amish
It that was his point then his writing skills are on par with his math skills.
srv
Jeez. Come back to reality. Walk into ANY McD’s todays and unplug the cash register display. Watch chaos ensue.
90% of the population can get by with addition, subtraction and multiplication. They don’t need no stinking formula. But we can’t even get that right.
Marcus Wellby
This Cohen is a pretentios twit — what a pathetic line that is. Yes Mr. Cohen, I am sure Gabriela skipped 62 of 93 lessons so she could catch up on her Washington Post op-eds. Idiot.
Marcus Wellby
hehehee! It would be “Lord of the Flies” within 10 minutes.
Faux News
You might just be on to something with this.
Hey! John promised me there would be NO MATH problems on this blog! WTF?
:-(
scs
You don’t have to tolerate much Lines, I got all A’s in my college math and stat classes, sometimes breaking the curve and pissing off my fellow students. If I had changed my learning methods earlier, I might have done that well in highschool as well and chosen a science major for college. So much for encouraging females to study the sciences. Anyway Lines, after that one, the DougJisms, I am very sure you are DougJ. Don’t try to deny it now- I broke your code.
Vladi G
Looks like I got it earlier. If you can’t pass algebra, you’re either incredibly stupid, incredibly lazy, or have a learning disability. Anyone can fail any class which they never attend.
The fact that Cohen ignored that aspect to make his ridiculously moronic point really says more about Cohen than anything.
He should have said “Don’t worry, Gabriella, you really don’t need a solid grasp of algebra to get a good job and have a good life. You do, however, need to get your lazy ass to work more than one out of every three days.”
srv
What a nut. After 6 tries, what do you expect? Show me her attendence for the first 3 tries and then judge her.
Marcus Wellby
Something tells me this little braniac wasn’t doing so hot in English either.
Lines
No, scs, I’m not Dougj, it doesn’t take his level of snark to make fun of you.
but whats next for a class you would like, How to Buy Prada Purses 101? Is that Third World Nation Dress a Cost Savings 105?
Don’t give me the bullshit line that math caters to the male populace and then back away from your statement with “I got good grades in math” kinda crap. You want to dumb down the system so girly-girls can get by easier, or you think its too hard so its male centric? Do you have some conservative think-tank bullshit to back up your claims?
Your statement was offensive, scs, so run along and play with your barbies and cook dinner. Or is one of the other wife’s turn today?
scs
DougJ, let me give you a little tip on how to avoid detection. When you have a known DougJ ID poster, such as Perry, post, all the posters around that post are suspect. When you start to see the same pattern of posters over and over again around that ID, with the same short posts, you start to realize those are DougJ posters. And as much as you try to disgiuse it, you also have a certain phrasing common to your posts. It kind of reminds me of figuring out a Wheel of Fortune quote. You are not half as clever as you think. You need to start mixing things up more if you are going to get away with it.
scs
Warning to readers – DougJ alert- I think in this thread we have Perry, srv, Lines, Faux News, JG. Maybe more but can’t decide on the others. You’ll notice those posters always post in a group.
SeesThroughIt
Yeah, that’s pretty much how it was at my high school, too, except we were on the trimester system. It was algebra in 8th grade, geometry freshman year (hated it!), algebra II/beginning trig sophomore year, more trig/ pre-calculus junior year, then calculus senior year. My high school actually had me on the fast track for math even though I really didnt like math. Funny how that works. I probably should’ve taken AP calculus because a decent score on the AP exam could’ve exempted me from taking math in college.
My distaste for math aside, I do agree with the various posters who have pointed out that learning the arithmetic is a secondary point when it comes to teaching math. Really, math is teaching a form of logic and a way of approaching and solving problems. The numbers aren’t nearly as important as the process; numbers just streamline the process because they aren’t subject to interpretation like, say, literature or history.
“Physics for Republicans”–har!
Perry Como
So much for pattern recognition from our resident math whiz.
Krista
scs – oh for the love of god, sweetie…not everybody who yanks your chain is DougJ, you know. That schtick is really starting to get old.
Andrew
Why can’t we outsource Gabriela’s math tests to some smart Indian kid?
scs
Also I notice that some DougJ ID posts are grouped. For instance Ancient Purple and PB usually go together. I think it depends on what computers he is using and what IDs are stored on each computer.
The Other Steve
If you have parents who don’t care… you’re gonna have kids who won’t attend school.
The problem with schools these days are not the schools, it’s the parents. Just a little tidbit that our right-leaning friends don’t want to admit.
Vlad
“If you do not understand what I am talking about, ask 100 English majors who have graduated from college what they are doing, and probably 80 out of 100 are not doing anything related to their field, 10 are going on for advanced degrees in English, and others are going for advanced degrees in something else- probably law.”
For the record, I’m an English major who makes a living as a writer.
I didn’t have any trouble when I took Algebra in junior high, though.
The Other Steve
scs is typical of your “I’m a conservative because all my friends say they are, not because I actually believe in anything.”
scs
You’d be surprised Krista. I noticed you were fooled by him several times. Remember Elinor Dickey? I think many of the readers would be surprised to know how just how often DougJ posts here. Assume about 30% of all the posts are him.
Krista
Exactly. You’re really just making yourself look foolish by warning all the other readers about the evil and omnipotent DougJ, and how he’s also Perry, Lines, etc.
Especially considering the fact that you’re wrong.
Gray
“Jeez. Come back to reality. Walk into ANY McD’s todays and unplug the cash register display. Watch chaos ensue.”
Hehe srv. If I would get information that at one of the McD’s here the computers crashed, I’d be there in ten minutes to take advantage of that chaos. I love bargain prices!
And PC, if you know that you can use linear interpolation to get an estimate for a point on a curve, you’re not a total loser at math. Calculators can do that, sure, but I was speaking about developing a formula, not simply using it.
scs
Huh? Does that have anything to do with math? Steve open your mind man, try not to be brainwashed leftie group thinker and start thinking for yourself.
scs
Really? Are you sure Krista?
Krista
Oh I remember Elinor. That was extremely well done.
I’m not telling you this to put you down, I’m telling you as a favour. Lines and DougJ are not the same person. If you don’t believe me, fine. Ask John. I just want to keep you from swinging at shadows like you’ve been doing, ’cause it really does make you look foolish.
Gray
“Assume about 30% of all the posts are him.” scs
Hmm. JC sure has admin info about the IP adresses of the posters. Does he confirm your suspicion?
Lines
Simplification of your world is an indication of a small limited mind, Krista. Let her presume to know what she thinks she knows and she’ll just get bit, over and over.
Intentional ignorance or just bad genetics? Its so hard to tell with scs.
scs
Ask him who Paddy O’Shea is. Ask him who alerted him to check that out.
srv
And just thought they were just stimulated by my intellectual insights. I for one think Lines snark wasn’t responding to a decent statement. But y’all have a history.
DougJ swears he’s not Perry. I think the response lengths have more to relate to DJ than anything. Perry never says more than a sentance. DJ usually a para or two. Lines will ramble on all day.
Here’s an example of how the educational system has cost a $1.6 Billion (GW’s propaganda expenditures last year). Here’s Rummy’s assessment:
Rummy Says we’re losing to AQ
SeesThroughIt
Oh yeah, I’m an English major who makes a living as a writer, editor, and copy editor.
Krista
And if it does turn out that I’m wrong, then I’ll stand up and applaud an extremely well-done bamboozling.
scs
DougJ- give it up. Your phrasing and vocab is getting so predictable now I can almost pick you out anywhere now. I guess you still have the others to fool though.
scs
Remember how DougJ swore here he was not the same poster on Tom Maguire’s web site who went by the name by DougJ? Remember who got kicked off of Tom Maguires site for lying? Come on. You believe a guy who devotes his life to assuming other IDs?
rilkefan
This reminds me of the fights we had here about Bill Bennett’s remarks on abortion and how a number of commenters who attacked him couldn’t do the simple algebra to understand what he was getting at in his un-pc way.
srv
What if scs is DougJ?
Krista
Well aren’t you just the adorable little snitch, then? I’m not going to ask John, because frankly, I don’t fucking care who Paddy O’Shea is. In the grand scheme of things, I don’t give a shit how many faux personas are on here. This site amuses me. I don’t care if every persona on this blog is an elaborate invention of John Cole’s brain. If it is, my hat is off to him for a scam well-played.
But that’s the difference between us. I have a sense of humour.
scs
How do you know this?
Krista
Wouldn’t surprise me one bit. ppGaz would probably want to kick his ass, though.
DougJ
I think it is wrong to see this issue in liberal versus conservative terms. The pundits on both sides are complete idiots for the most part. I really think that when it comes to punditry, both sides are equally disgraceful. Cal Thomas and Richard Cohen are equally embarrassing.
The stupidity manifests itself in different ways: Cohen is anti-algebra, Cal Thomas is anti-evolution. But they’re both anti-intellectual.
Gray
“Ask him who Paddy O’Shea is.”
I seem to remember that name from an ols irish joke:
Paddy O’Shea and Liam Gallagher are sitting in a pub they’ve never been before. Liam asks: “Now, Paddy why are we here and what are we waiting for?”
“Let’s wait ’til the innkeeper opens the door to that room over there”
“What will happen then?”
“I’ve been told that we’ll get 5 shots of Jamesson and a great fuck there. Plus a bottle of ale for the way home. All for free!”
“Without having to pay for it? Whoever told you that must be the biggest liar alive!”
“Now wait a moment, Liam. How dare you speak this way about my sister?”
Krista
Because I’m DougJ, what do you think, you simpleton?
Andrew
That’s nothing. What if DougJ is scs?!????!!???
scs
Remember how John was getting all steamed because Paddy O’Shea used to go after him all the time and John would write whole posts rebutting him. John originally thought it might be Slide, but I don’t think he thought at the time to check out DougJ. I don’t think it was being a “snitch” to alert him to look into it and of course my suspicion turned out to be correct. Krista, we are all not fellow drug dealers here, with some code of silence. It’s a blog. I have a right to discuss what I observe.
scs
Now THAT one would impress me.
Don Surber
JOHN: “I am sensitive to both sides of the argument, but the question that needs to be resolved is did the educational system serve Gabriela, a girl who according the information we have here, did everything she could to fulfill her obligations.”
Everything except attend class …
Krista
This thread brought to you by the Wachowski brothers. Now back to our regularly scheduled partisan bickering…
Tom in Texas
“Quick without googling: Recite the pythagorean theorem. You’ll never be scienctists! Stupid liberal failures.”
Umm.. the point is not whether you can remember decades later when the Magna Carta was signed or the Pythagoran theorem. The point is that if you can’t keep it in your head for a day you are not worthy of a diploma. Study. The Night. Before. Good god in my community college courses they give you the equations for the test. All you have to do is know which problems to apply them to. If you cannot pass algebra you do not deserve a diploma, or a job commensurate. I have serious concerns about your ability to flip a burger or cook fries without burning your skin off (and ruining my french fries’ delicious flavor in the process).
Perry Como
Krista Says:
Heads are going to start exploding soon.
Davebo
What about spelling? Or English? Should we condemn someone to a life of diminished earnings just because they can’t form a coherent sentence? Or spell their own middle name?
Gray
“This thread brought to you by the Wachowski brothers.”
Wachowski brothers? Did I miss that at school?
Thank god for wikipedia!
jaime
x=-b +/- square root of b squared -4ac / 2a. All sung to row your boat. I have never ever used it since High School.
John
As I tell my son, “You have a job. It’s to attend your classes and learn as much as you can.”
I don’t care that it was her 6th pass through the class — skipping 2/3 of the classes will not assist her passing the class. I’d even go sar far as to say it materially affects her ability to do so. And yes, that’s a judgement.
Krista
scs – I figure if someone’s busting John’s balls, then it’s up to him to investigate and determine if he’s being spoofed. He’s a big (albeit rapidly shrinking) boy, and can take of himself. Sure, you have a right to discuss what you observe, but it still smacks of the grade-school tattle-tale. Do what you want, but I really wouldn’t be so self-congratulatory about your suspicions being correct, Clouseau.
It’s simply bad sportsmanship, that’s all.
Lines
You know what is amazing? I can make 2 posts with the same timestamp on two different threads, one as Lines and one as DougJ!
If you don’t believe me, go look for yourself.
SeesThroughIt
Oh great, so it’s going to be unbearably pretentious and pitifully short on actual thought?
Wait a minute….
Krista
can take care of himself, I meant to say. Damn, my hands are freezing…
Jim Allen
1215.
Google is my friend.
John
I showed my son how to derive the above quadratic equation (x=(-b+-sqr(b^2-4ac))/2a) from the polynomial ax^2+bx+c=0 last week. Solving for roots of equations comes up in an awful lot of scientific disciplines, so this knowledge isn’t totally useless.
John Cole
SCS- I do not know what you are talking about. I am unaware that Paddy O’Shea is DougJ. I will check the next time paddy posts, but that is not the case as of right now.
Gray
“Damn, my hands are freezing…”
Which leads us to one of the downsides of virtual reality today. We still can’t warm someones freezing hands…
John
How…interesting.
Didn’t look like that in the preview, that’s ferdamnsure.
scs
What? I saw you write the post the day after I messaged you to check it out. You wrote “Paddy/DougJ I’m sick of your crap” or something like that. I assumed the two were related since it was the next day. Okay, now you’re freaking me out.
scs
And DougJ/Lines, I’m sure you have access to more than one computer to get the same time stamp. That doesn’t prove anything. The mere fact that you brought that up as proof makes me think even more that you are DougJ.
Krista
Good work, Clouseau.
Lines
I’m in your computer, scs! Bwahahaha!
Or something like that.
Maybe we’re all just part of your paranoid fantasy, scs? Did you ever think that maybe its YOU making all these posts? Havn’t you ever noticed all the time you seem to lose through the day and that extra $20 on the nightstand?
scs
John I did see that post. If I search for it I know I will find it. What did you mean by it then? Tell us all then, as best you can, which posters are DougJ? Let’s solve this now. Of course if he uses different computers, it still won’t be definitive.
Lines
I should get an IP spoofer too, scs. I’ll name it after my favorite little paranoid 12 year old poster, too!
Gray
Oh no! Pls don’t hijack this thread for your multiple identity theories, scs!
Zifnab
The no-word Proof of the Pythagorean Theorem
One of my favorites.
That said, I’ve tutored people in basic algebra a number of times. Often, the major break in understanding is conceptualization of the variable. Some people just can’t wrap their heads around the idea of ‘x’. Once you break through that block, it’s amazing to see people blister through material they could not previously begin to understand.
I can also say from the experience of repeating a class once or twice in college that taking the class again is by no means a garantee of taking in the course material. If I show you a^2 + b^2 = c^2 and you don’t get it, showing it to you again a year later isn’t going to make a big breakthrough. For many people, private or semi-private tutoring is the difference between success and failure. But more than that, enthusiasm makes a big difference. If you want to learn, your odds of learning are much better. If you’re just filling up space in a classroom to avoid truancy, there’s nothing that can be done.
So the name of the game is really much more complex than “how do I get them to learn” and quickly becomes “how do I get them to want to learn.” If you can solve that riddle, you’re in for making alot of money.
Krista
What’s the point in that, where you just admitted that you still won’t believe him? You’d just ruin the fun for everybody else, and would still be convinced that a bunch of other people are personas of DougJ. It’s up to John, but I really don’t see the point in catering to your paranoia.
scs
See? That phrase you have used before, with a different ID. Only last time you made it “8” year old. There is starting to be a lot of overlap visible now to me because I’ve seen you post so long.
scs
Krista, do you NOT believe DougJ used more than one ID or not? Let’s start there.
Krista
Gray,
Too late, hon. She’s all worked up now and wants John to sic the NSA on all of us.
Tell youwhat, scs. Start your own blog. You’ll be able to see the IP addresses of the three people who might bother visiting, and will then be safe from the scaaaaarrrrrryyy spoofers.
Gray
” Often, the major break in understanding is conceptualization of the variable”
Uhuh. Gimme a break, could you pls rephrase that sentence so that people with a limited vocabulary are able to understand it?
scs
Krista- could you answer that for me?
Perry Como
I bet DougJ was on the grassy knoll.
Krista
scs – I already told you. I don’t give a flying fuck at a rolling donut if every single person on this blog, including yourself, is a DougJ persona. It amuses me.
Hon, take some advice, okay? You’ve really got to develop a thicker skin and a better sense of humour. Stop trying to read so deeply into things. It is entertaining to debate politics, and pop culture, and cats, and John’s war against love handles. In the grand scheme of things, does it really, really matter who ANY of us are? Outside of this blog, do any of us have an effect on our life? Are we your friends, your lovers, your elected representatives? No. We’re a bunch of strangers that you get to shoot the shit with. It’s not worth all of this angst and amateur sleuthing.
Bob Munck
No one who says “graduate high school” should be allowed to graduate from high school.
Tom in Texas
” Often, the major break in understanding is conceptualization of the variable”
Some people just don’t get that x can be any number you want.
Lines
Conceptualizing that a variable X is not a single finite value, but is a conceptual variable that can be virtually “anything” is the single most important point to grasp in Algebra 101. I had the problem where I just couldn’t understand why A + B equalled C. WHY? What is the value of A and B and why should it be forced to equal C?
I pounded my head on it for a majority of the first semester of algebra and it was like waking up one morning with a bright 100W bulb over my head and going “duh!”. From then on algebra was just busy work to get through the harder stuff.
Getting students to figure out that variable X can be virtually ANYTHING is incredibly difficult for certain thinking types. Conceptualizing that it can be a function, a range, a substitution or even just a word is beyond some people, and for some its second nature and easy.
srv
Here for all you over-educated folk who want to blame the victim. This is what you want for Gabriele?
Alzheimer”s progresses faster in Educated People
Faux News
I am my own person. I don’t “do” anyone else. Besides I don’t have the time or energy to play “multiple annoying Trolls”. That said, when Stormy posts I call her “Vixen News”. I might start using that name only when I respond to her as it seems appropriate.
Full disclosure by Faux News.
srv
No, he was the guy disinfo guy they hired to confuse everybody. Check the Warren Commission for anyone named Doug.
Perry Como
But what number is it?
Gray
hehehe, srv. I’ve read that, too. Now I’m determined I won’t quit smoking anytime soon. Better die of lung cancer than suffer from Alzheimer til the end…
John Cole
I see you SRV, and raise you this:
Nuns who have complex sentence structure are less likely to develop alzheimers.
scs
Krista hun, I want to start from there. If you won’t answer we can’t continue the logic. Oh well I’ll try anyway. We know DougJ uses multiple IDs, right? In fact a long time ago, like 6-10 months ago, John Cole posted some of the fake personas DougJ uses. If I remember correctly it was list of about maybe 10 names. Since I was newer to the blog at the time I didn’t really pay attention to the actual names. If we know the guy uses at least 10 IDs that John can CATCH, how do we know that there may not be more? If we know that the guy gets kicked off from multiple web sites for using fake ids,and not just on here, we know that this is somehting the guy devotes a lot of time to. At some point when you start to see a similarity of language and timing with posters, you have to ask yourself if that poster is a DougJ poster. I don’t think that’s paranoia, I think that’s sound logic.
scs
If it doesn’t matter, why are you getting upset that I am trying to unveil DougJ posts? It shouldn’t matter either way.
Gray
“I bet DougJ was on the grassy knoll.”
blah. Why not simply believe that Doug J is the person you find by cheking the first google hit? It’s as good a theory as any other. Just have feith in it!
ggg
John
scs,
How do you think John can “catch” the multiple DougJ aliases?
Hint: He has access to more information than you do.
Faux News
PS: John could always have us register our names and use a password to post under that name. Right now I’m glad we don’t have to do that…
rilkefan
Zifnab, cool link, if not quite direct.
scs
Well he would have to use the same IP addresses which John can see. However DougJ is no amateur and I’m sure he has access to mulitple computers, maybe at a computer lab, so it will make it harder for John to trace the same numbers. And/or perhaps he can disguise the IP numbers, I’m not a techie like that, but I’m sure there is a way to program it.
Krista
Clouseau…how many times do I have to tell you?
I….Don’t….Care.
Your obsession is growing very tiresome. I would advise you to let it go.
Perry Como
Lines Says:
Oh yeah smart guy? Explain sqrt(-1).
Just kidding. That was the hardest concept to wrap my head around when it was introduced in Algebra II(?). It was one of the things that I swore would never be useful again. Then I ran into quaternions.
scs Says:
Actually, it is paranoia. You see DougJs everywhere and rationalize it by examining timing and sentence structure. It’s actually kind of funny. How can a statement like: “about 30% of all the posts are him” not be considered paranoia?
Krista
Because you are trying to ruin my amusement.
srv
More reason to get her out of H.S. and out enjoying the world. And maybe Cohen is exhibiting early stages.
Gray
“you are trying to ruin my amusement.”
Yup! Even G0P is funnier than you are, scs. :(
scs
Krista- the only reason I am debating this with you is because you brought up how I am paranoid, how I am wrong, how I’m a snitch for trying to reveal DougJ personas. Those are loaded words directed at me. And because of that, I have to speak my case. If you hadn’t taken up the issue and would not have spoken insultingly to me, I would be debating math teaching right now, not DougJ. So don’t expect a hit and run here- it doesn’t work that way usually.
SeesThroughIt
scs, this is the police. We’ve traced the DougJ posts, and they’re coming from inside the house! Get out, now!
scs
Krista, would you think it was that amusing if DougJ leveled constant insults at you under fake IDs? I wonder. You are safe because you fall on the “right” side of the debate here (in this case the “left” actually). I would love to see how you felt about it if you got the same treatment. I doubt you would be so amused.
Lines
Lets get back to making fun of scs’s thought line that there should be girl math!
But lets not stop at math, what about science for girls?
“How hot should the iron be 101”
“Cooking for a basketball team sized family for Christian Girls 110”
“Adding up fingers and toes for health 210”
scs
?
Because it’s probably true.
Tom in Texas
Scs regardless of whether or not your obsession is paranoia or logic I kind of doubt that any person here is reading the comments to hear your theories. I would prefer posts concerning whether or not Algebra matters anymore.
John
Very good.
Now, knowing this, how did he catch the 10 in the first place? If DougJ has the capability to completely mask his identity, why did he let these 10 be caught?
Warning: If you claim that he “let” John catch these as part of a nefarious plot to throw him off the scent of all of his OTHER identities, you are a raving paranoiac and I claim my 5 pounds.
(Also, IP spoofing is not terribly easy. I can very easily tell my computer to misreport my IP number, but convincing all the routers in between here and there to do so is a non-trivial task.)
Lines
Poor scs can’t even imagine multiple people thinking she’s an ignorant little girl, I must be a spoofer!
If Wookies lived on Endor, you must acquit!
Pb
John Cole,
scs is certifiable–she thinks I’m DougJ too. Perhaps in her world, “DougJ” is a code word for something entirely different, who can say?
Gray
“would you think it was that amusing if DougJ leveled constant insults at you under fake IDs?”
Hmm, I think I’m able to relate to your problem, scs. But don’t you think it would be better to simply ignore those assaults? By showing that you’re p***ed, you give Doug an incentive to post more of the same…
srv
We need a group “safety” word for the rest of us. It’ll mean knock-off whenever TD, Cornyn or scs have tired us out.
Vladi G
Interestingly enough, a post about one of the stupidest columns ever, which discussed one of the stupidest people ever, has turned into the stupidest thread ever.
Perry Como
I wouldn’t put it in terms of “girl math”. Republican Math or Religious Right Math seems more fun. The reasoning is already out there: abstinence education stops kids from having sex; trickle down economics; defecits don’t matter; the Earth is 600 years old.
The beauty about math is that everything is math. If we accept a Republican/Religious Right form of math then we can stop looking for solutions. The answer is always faith/God. This will apply to biology, physics, economics, etc.
btw, my favorite statement heard today was from President Bush. He was giving a speech and said (paraphrasing), “I’ll balance the budget by keeping taxes low and spending money”.
See! Republican Math!
Krista
All right, that’s it. Look, you ignorant little lunatic, I’ve tried being patient with you, but you have worked my last nerve. NOBODY FUCKING CARES about how many DougJ spoofs there are, or who they are. You’re the only one with this absurd, childish obsession. Even your fellow righties don’t give a shit. You don’t see Mac Buckets, Brian or Stormy accusing everybody of being DougJ, tattling to John with their suspicions, or asking John to cater to their paranoia by revealing spoof personas. Why? Because they’re fucking ADULTS, that’s why! They have a sense of humour, and they can appreciate a good spoof, and don’t want to spoil the fun for everybody else. So if you’re so goddamned scared of being spoofed, go open up your own blog, monitor the IP addresses, and start soliciting donations for meds and therapy, ’cause you obviously need them, sister.
scs
I have the feeling DougJ works with computers. In fact, Lines, whom I believe is a DougJ poster, has wrote about using computers to help with research. So a strong possibilty of some tech background there.
Marcus Wellby
Haha! Indeed, and with that post we can consider this thread closed.
Funny, it started as an interesting post and the comments offered a chance for some of us to agree on something for a change.
scs
You were patient with me? When did that happen? Before or after the insults?
scs
That’s because as usual I wrote a perfectly good post, non-personal devoted to the issues and I got this in return.
That’s why the thread disintegrated. I called DougJ on an obvious DougJ post (no one else writes like that) and Krista got upset with me for that.
Krista
I want to apologize to the other bloggers for that. Marcus, you’re right. The thread was hijacked, and it was a really interesting topic. I’ll be off now, and hopefully you guys can cobble this thread back together into something more interesting than the catfight you just witnessed.
scs
Yes I think he goes after me because first he goes after people who are more right than he is and second, he knows I know he does that, so it’s a challenge to him.
Perry Como
Yikes. demi works with computers too (and he’s conspicuously absent…). So do I. Now all of the people that work with computers are actually DougJ.
Which makes me wonder. What would computers look like using Republican/Religious Right math? *n*x wouldn’t have daemons, that’s for sure. fsck would have to be renamed. Same thing with finger. grep is borderline. In graphics, Slerp is a bit too suggestive.
Of course none of these would matter with Republican/Religious Right math. The answer would always be avaiable through prayer.
Gray
Good that we talked about that.
And now for something completely different:
Kids dropping out of highschool. Is math the reason?
scs
Perry/ Lines/ DougJ He’s not even trying now.
scs
Back to my original post…Teaching methods of math need improvement- especially to reach girls.
scs
Krista, I really think you need to lighten up. It’s just a debate. After that last outburst, I think you need to get a thicker skin.
John
scs,
I work with computers — I’m the MIS at a medical device manufacturer. I deal in both hardware and software, in networks and systems design/analysis, and systems administration. I’m pretty much the Alpha-Geek of my firm.
This is a spectacularly non-trivial task. I can very easily misreport my IP address. I can far less easily manage to communicate while maintaining that deception. I can, with astounding effort, manage to conceal the facade from a packet sniffer. I cannot conceal my true designation from anyone with physical access to the routers and their logs.
This is not something anyone who “works with computers” can do. These things do not run on magic. These run on well defined principles and protocols. For him to successfully spoof his IP, he would need to be able to control his upstream router’s routing table, for starters.
Gray
“Teaching methods of math need improvement- especially to reach girls.”
Hmm, not so sure about that. Aren’t girls better at school until the age of 16 or 17 or so or isn’t this true for math?
Gray
“Krista,” ….”I think you need to get a thicker skin.”
Certainly! Remember, her “hands are freezing…” ggg
scs
Well thank you for informing me on that. Like I said, I have no idea on how that can work. However, DougJ did also in the past talk about typing his posts from libraries/computer labs. Perhaps he takes the easier route and just uses different computers. That may be why I tend to see the same ids in groups, on different days.
By the way how do you do this-“For him to successfully spoof his IP, he would need to be able to control his upstream router’s routing table, for starters.” Would someone who has access to a university router system be able to do that?
scs
It’s not true for math. Boys do better – although the gap may be closing a bit recently.
Steve
Scs, I’ll let you in on the secret. Most of us think DougJ’s schtick is pretty hilarious. We get a kick out of him fooling people, and we get a kick out of how he fooled us back before we figured out what was going on. And – here’s the thing – because he is funny, a lot of us have taken to imitating his style for laughs. If 5 people post in a row to say “Why don’t we ever hear the good news about shooting someone in the face?” it’s not because they’re all DougJ. It’s because that sort of line has become a running BJ joke, period.
Whether a given poster is DougJ or just a DougJ impersonator isn’t really relevant to me. The only thing that’s relevant is whether someone is a spoof or not. And even then, sometimes you can’t even worry about it because a good DougJ parody is totally indistinguishable from a hardcore Kool-Aid drinker. That’s what makes it funny. Personally, I just want to know if GOP4Me is always, sometimes, or never a spoofer.
Anyway, Krista has by far the best attitude of anyone on this blog (further proof that Canadians are superior) and you have to take something pretty far to piss her off. So take it as a gentle hint.
Pooh
I am
SpartucusDougJGray
Well, imho someone who dropped out of highschool because of math, most probably won’t be able to spoof IPs later, too. So her handicap prevents Gabriela from becoming a succesful hackerette. What opportunities does she have? Becoming an expert on human relationships like Xaviera Hollander?
srv
We are all DougJ
I’m going to sell that bumpersticker soon.
scs
I thought that too before. But has Krista ever been tested? Since her views are comfortably ‘left’ and she doesn’t use harsh language usually, she doesn’t attract much flack. Let’s see how she reacts when she is confronted.
Jimmmm
The glorification of ignorance is what life in Bush’s America is all about. We should revel in it.
Tom in Texas
“I think his point was that she now has a wide degree of other professional opportunities permanently closed off to her- even without algebra skills, she may very well have gone on to college and found an intellectual pursuit more fitting to her natural abilities.
That was Richard’s point, I think, and it is one worth considering.”
John, are you advocating that admission to college not be dependent upon a diploma? If so, it is not, at least in TX — you can get your GED instead. Now when you take the GED exam, they give you the test with all those formulas on it already — you don’t have to remember any theorems, and they give you a calculator as well. We do absolutely everything we can to ensure that those that are mathematically challenged can succeed anyway. It is her fault for refusing to try again.
John
Different computers at a computer lab will have all of their IP addresses clustered together, which makes it very easy to detect.
Unless they worked in the computing department in a supervisory mode, then no. You would need to be able to physically access the router and edit the routing table to produce a valid-but-false path report to the next router in line.
The TCP/IP protocol requires a handshake of each packet to verify transmission. This means that the destination computer has to be able to respond to the purported source computer for each packet sent. Unless you are able to get the handshake routed back to your true location, your transmission will fail.
Gray
“she doesn’t use harsh language usually, she doesn’t attract much flack. Let’s see how she reacts when she is confronted.”
Oh yeah. That’s what you get for behaving decently. You will be insulted by bullies who want to know how far they can push you. What kind of an a**hole philosophy is that?
Lines
Why doesn’t the press focus on the good that comes from grrrl math? And who needs equality anyway?
Perry Como
You’re overthinking it. Use an anonymous proxy and you can spoof all day long. Of course Mr. Cole may then wonder why he’s getting posters from China…
/happily feeding the scs paranoia
//still not DougJ
///or am I?
scs
Au contraire. his writing style is very distinct to me now. He uses short sentences, short posts. They are usually 5 minutes apart. He only takes a few lines before he goes off on a religious topic or twisting something to a ridiculous level while at the same time trying to act serious. It’s the same thing practically everytime. I thought it was amusing for the first few weeks I knew about it, but it got old to me after that. I am glad you all get enjoyment out if it, but again let’s see how you feel about it when he comes after you. Will you still think it’s amusing?
Lines
Booga booga booga! What are you gonna do when the snarker comes after you?
On another note, how do we know that scs isn’t John Cole’s female child persona?
And if they post on the same blog, is that like incest and pedofilia at the same time?
scs
You def are because one day someone commented on how I didn’t like DougJ and then out of the blue you commented on how I like you but didn’t like Perry. A criminal always wants to be uncovered deep inside- or how else are people supposed to admire his handy work?
RobR
To hell with Gabriella; children like scs are our future.
That’s why I’m trying my damnedest to drink myself to death.
scs
Classic. Are you spoofing yourself now? Congrats on a new twist.
Pooh
We’re fighting the spoofers over here so that Tom Maguire no longer has to fight them over there.
Pooh
We post on Balloon Juice from the IP’s we have, not those we wish we had.
scs
Another classic – short sentences – hardly any prepositional phrases. Straight to attacking with an attempt at humour. Keep at it man- this game is fun.
scs
That’s true. The few times I read there after John linked to it, I saw them VERY pissed off at DougJ- unlike here.
ppGaz
The story of Gabriela is an anecdote. Anecdotal evidence is no evidence… of anything. In the bathosphere, which is closely allied with the blogbamboozlesphere, though, a poignant anecdote can be spun out into something grand, something …. political …. something that is a great, lofty construct of bullshit that would please W. R. Hearst himself if he were only here to take advantage of it …..
But in fact, it’s just a useless anecdote. It’s a goofy story, one that doesn’t entirely make sense, but that doesn’t stop the keyboard-flappers from gathering around it the way turkey buzzards circle carrion and try to make something of it.
Everybody will have an opinion. Oh, I’m a teacher and I think that blahblahblahblahblahdeblahdebhaldeblah. Well {harumph} I’m a lawyer and the law says that blahfuckingblahblabhblahdeblahdee. And so forth and so on.
No, really? Who knew? Is this the result of the latest study?
See, this kind of thing is not only entertaining, it’s educational. We learn just by hanging around this kind of stuff. Who’d have thought that dropping our meant negative outcomes? Is up now down, and black now white?
Gray
“To hell with Gabriella; children like scs are our future.
That’s why I’m trying my damnedest to drink myself to death.”
Brave new world, indeed….
Here’s too you, Rob! Prost!
ppGaz
Oh, and I have inside information: scs is a DougJ character. Always has been.
Pooh
I’ve never seen them in the same place at the same time. Maybe SCS is Senator Cornyn as well.
Gray
…and still nobody has googled doug j and checked the first hit…pearls before swine…
ppGaz
Exactamente!
ppGaz
Yes, but remember, you’ll only see them once.
Steve
I don’t really. Think. That short sentences. Mean much. But ok, if Jesus says so.
Gray
hehehehe, I’ve been intuitively right: Paddy O’Shea is really a charactor in irish jokes. Googles first hit:
“Paddy O’Shea got friendly with some of the local Boston Irish, and they
took him to an upscale “Irish” pub.
“Amazin’, just amazin’, that’s what America is,” he said, looking with
delight into his glass. “Never have I been seein’ an ice cube with a
hole in it!”
“Oi sure have,” said his host, Michael Sullivan. “Bin married to one fer
fifteen year.” “
Steve
I followed the trackback above to scrutator.net and found this:
Now seriously, if you think that last sentence is distinguishable from something DougJ would write, you are completely ignoring the source of his inspiration.
Gray
??? Steve, are you scs?
DougJ
Steve, Free Republic was my original inspiration, but now I’m more of a Blogs for Busy guy.
How could I possibly do 30% of the posts here, scs? I would have to be typing on several keyboards at once. Which isn’t to say that I’m not…
ppGaz
scs is actually Nellie Olsen from Little House on the Prairie.
Gray
Hmm, to come back to topic, sure you are a lamer at math and dropped out of highschool, Doug?
neil
Why on earth would someone who’s failed algebra six times deserve a high school diploma? Have we come fully around the bend? Do we rely so much on standardized tests that we now have lost sight that actual learning exists?
Faux News
Balloon Juice Religon for Dummies:
Father: John Cole
Son: DougJ
Holy Ghost: scs
I guess that makes the rest of us demons and/or saints.
Gray
No prophets here, Faux?
“scs is actually Nellie Olsen from Little House on the Prairie.”
Dang! So she sure is a member of the Olsen gang. So I guess she’s responsible for those danish Mohammad cartoons, too. Right?
Faux News
How about Stormy and Darrell? They seem to be gleefully awaiting The Rapture.
Please all others join in. I have not even named Satan yet! :-)
Pooh
Satan is too easy…Cindy Sheehan.
Steve
I just had to repeat this. No real point.
SeesThroughIt
I know I do. When DougJ was really hitting his stride, I was learning the ins and outs of blogsforbush and the bizarre fantasyland they’ve constructed over there, and DougJ sounded exactly–exactly–like the b4b commentators to the point where I thought he really was one of them who happened to wander over here. When it became clear that the joke was on me, I had to applaud a job very well done.
Amen to all of this.
Perry Como
Faux News, you need a tagline to fit your name. May I suggest “Bare and Phallused”?
les
scs, you can relax. I’m actually everyone here except you. So who else can I attack?
GOP4Me
I have to say, scs has been taking a lot of abuse from you all, and she’s put up with it very well. I recognize the typical BJ liberal attack tactics, swarm your enemies and smear them on every level. I’m just amazed no one’s brought sex into it yet, that’s usually one aspect of the onslaught when you’re all attacking me. I don’t know how scs put up with it for so long.
The other funny thing, scs, is that they all accuse ME of being DougJ, too. It’s become a sort of running tactic on this website. If the moonbats can’t take down your arguments, they either attack you personally or pretend that you AREN’T a person, that you’re some spoof created by some demented left-wing troll (as most of them probably are- thank you for pointing out the odd timing and discrepancies in posting; you’ve made me begin to realize that Paddy O’Shea and Perry Como might actually BE DougJ). MY suggestion is to do what I do- basically ignore them, and continue making your points for the benefit of the silent majority of conservatives reading this blog for insight and a chance to watch lefties get swatted aside like the useless little flyspecks they are.
Davebo
Hey, what happens in the sheep field stays in the sheep field.
GOP4Me
Well, it’s perverted, but you get points for timely delivery, Davebo. Well played.
I’ll see you in Hell.
Pooh
Insert “over there…over here” line as needed.
DougJ
What makes you think I’m not?
srv
Think about it. How many funny republicans to you know?
SeesThroughIt
Touche.
srv
Ah, yes. This thread clearly shows everybody started accusing scs of being DougJ first… If you subtract Revisionism from zero, what do you get?
ppGaz
Okay, the truth is, all this scs stuff is just a ruse to get exposure for my url, which now has a brand new photo of my granddaughter on it. Taken yesterday.
Her name is Maci.
I am now starting the new tradition of Friday Commenter Grandchild Blogging.
DougJ
At least one of the B4B bloggers is a spoof. I know him. (I actually don’t know which one of them is him, he won’t tell me)
SeesThroughIt
Wait, one of the bloggers or one of the regular commentors? If it’s one of the commentors, I have my suspicions as to which one he is (though, really, the vast majority of commentors over there could be spoofs). If it’s one of the bloggers…that’s a hell of a coup right there, and each one of them has an equal possibility of being a spoof, so I can’t call it.
Perry Como
ppGaz Says:
She’s quite hairy.
ppGaz
I’m sorry, what does that have to do with my granddaughter?
ppGaz
No Perry, it’s this one
Mumon
The point of the column is that should someone be condemned to a life of, well, diminished earnings and expectations, simply because they are incapable of performing algebra?
Some folks won’t like what I have to say: Yes. They should expect this, if they’re not drop dead gorgeous, or can act, or can write. (Note I left out music; if you can’t do algebra, for some strange brain-science reason, you probably can’t do music.)
Cohen convinced folks he can write. But you know what? There’s not so much demands for Richard Cohens anymore.
Also, I would submit as somebody who scored a 714 on the language part of the SAT and only 670 on the verbal, that Cohen is full of crap when he says, “all the people in my high school who were whizzes at math but did not know a thing about history and could not write a readable English sentence.”
It’s WaPo; what do you expect from them?
Gray
Congratulations, ppGaz. And since I understand that you desperately want to talk about your granddaughter, what will you do if it turns out that she’s got problems with math and might drop out of highschool?
DougJ
I mean one of the actual posters. This guy I know could be lying, but I tend to believe him. They all sound like spoofs to me, so I can’t tell which one he might be.
jg
I’m DougJ? I just followed one of his posts so I guess I am? Whats for dinner tonight Doug?
ppGaz
Buy her a tv station.
Perry Como
Perhaps Maci is DougJ. ppGaz, your granddaugter is doing a heckuva job.
(seriously though, congrats)
John
Bite. Me. I have done nothing to scs in this thread beyond attempting to impart knowledge and correct misapprehensions — which is called education. Which, amazingly enough, is even semi-topical, unlike anything you have managed to post.
People wonder if you are DougJ simply because you’re a caricature of a rightwing shill. Lord knows I find it hard to believe that anyone can speak solely in Rightwing Talking Points, but here you are.
ppGaz
John, meet Darrell …..
Steve
Ah, yes, the silent majority. I was wondering what had become of your promise to scatter the liberal wolfpacks to the four winds. It’s pretty much seemed like you enjoy lampooning conservatives as much as the rest of us.
My only advice is that when you become indistinguishable from a spoof, some would say that’s not a quality to be proud of. Keep on stickin’ it to the libs, though. Deep inside we’re all afraid of you.
Gray
“Buy her a tv station.”
So cute Maci will be the Paris Hilton of the 2020s? Hmm, dontchathink a highschool degree and a “normal” job would be better for her family?
ppGaz
Okay, I’ll buy her a high school.
rilkefan
John (computer-guy, that is – might want to extend your handle) – why doesn’t he just ssh to a different supernet?
Kimmitt
Lines is totally right — the great conceptual breakthrough of algebra is the concept of the variable. If you can get that into your head fairly thoroughly, you’ve got an immensely powerful intellectual tool which is useful in a variety of situations.
jg
Like detaching yourself emotionally from the issue and dealing with the actual problem? Or seeing it from anothers point of view?
Gray
Kimmitt, sure, I just don’t think that the kids will have a “major break in understanding” when their teacher lectures them on “conceptualization of the variable”…
Well, imho more easily understandable phrases would be more succesful, but what do I know about teaching…
Krista
Steve, Gray et al – thanks for sticking up for me. Once again, I apologize for my outburst, especially to John Cole. It’s his blog, and I was being rude.
scs, if you’re curious, I wasn’t angry with you for trying to identify DougJ spoofs. I was angry with you because you kept badgering me with your deductions, questioning me as to what my thoughts were, when I had already told you several times that I do not care who is DougJ and who is not. You pushed. And then you pushed some more. And when I told you that I was getting annoyed, instead of respecting that and letting it go, you kept on pushing. And when I lost my temper, you completely absolved yourself of any role in it, saying that you had, “just called DougJ on an obvious DougJ post (no one else writes like that) and Krista got upset with me for that.” I’m more than willing to admit that I provoked you and made fun of you, and will apologize for that. But I would appreciate it if you could be woman enough to admit that you’re not blameless. It’s up to you, but you’ll gain a lot more respect from many people here if you take some responsibility for the arguments that you get into with people.
Digital Amish
My only question is who at ScrewTater isn’t DougJ? And if they’re not DougJ, are they PPGazs’ granddaughter?
Steve
I don’t think of it as sticking up for you, Krista, so much as sticking up for the entire nation of Canada. You guys have a better national anthem, after all.
Pooh
Precisely. Some people are stupid. Stupid people should, generally, not earn as much as smart people. They should instead focus on becoming…no, teh easy, can’t do it…
GOP4Me
This is Exhibit A, scs.
And this is Exhibit B. It’s rare to find a post that demonstrates BOTH of my assertions so concisely.
Gray
:blush: Uh, I just thought, like, decent, uh, people shouldn’t be, uh, unfairly attacked, well, you know :stutter:
GOP4Me
My time is not yet upon you, Steve/DougJ.
In the immortal words of your intellectual colleague, John, “Bite. Me.”
ppGaz
That is without a doubt the most ignorant and stupid remark I’ve ever seen on a blog.
Who wrote it?
Steve
See, that’s what I’m talking about. It’s like you’re a good sport, then you’re not, then you’re a good sport again. If your goal is to discombobulate me with your inscrutatorability, it’s working.
Steve
Was it this guy?
Pooh
ppGaz, Intuitively, I don’t think it’s that stupid – mathematical and musical ability are pretty well established to be related, no?
ppGaz
Can you show me the data on that?
TSM.
Pooh
I wasn’t there when the discovery was made, so how is my data of any use?
GOP4Me
I’m always a good sport, Steve. This IS online, so communications are frequently frayed. Also, it’s sad to have to tell you that many of your fellow liberals are NOT good sports, and aren’t ashamed to show it. If you don’t believe me, type in “Saddam was a threat! Bush is a hero!” one time, and see the reaction. If it’s a busy blog-day, within 5 minutes you’ll be accused of being a) 350 pounds, b) homosexual, c) DougJ.
Just try it. You’ll see. And it’s not even as if those two statements are super-offensive. It’s not as if you just urged State police officers to shoot liberals in the head on sight or something outrageous like that.
Like I’ve said, I don’t care or hold grudges. It’s just a blog, not some mystical shrine where we’re supposed to uncover the hidden truths of existence. We were originally talking about some pothead who couldn’t pass algebra, for God’s sake. Why do people get themselves so worked up into a righteous frothing fervor over this kind of nonsense?
Gray
Hmm, ok, Bach is a perfect example for that, I’ve heard. But on the other hand, I’m sure there’s lots of, say, Blues and Jazz musicians who haven’t exactly been mathematical geniuses. Did they have the ability but not the chance to train it at school? Hmm…
Pooh
How’s bout this?
ppGaz
Steve, you can’t be serious?
That’s right up there with comparisons between Lincoln and Darwin, since they were both born on the same day.
By Lincoln, of course, I meant Abe, not Lincoln Chafee.
Steve
Saddam was a threat! Bush is a hero!
Steve
Of course I’m serious. Music and mathematics have any number of interrelationships, and I’m not repudiating Nietzsche by saying so. It’s a fascinating book, by the way.
Pooh
I honestly thought it was common knowledge that music = math as applied to sound.
GOP4Me
Not now, you dunderhead! They can read, they’re aware of our cunning trap! Do it on some other thread, during peak poster hours when they won’t remember or recognize you as anyone other than “Steve”, who might have any ideology from Stalinist to supply-sider.
If you do it now, you don’t prove anything. Unless DougJ comes along and calls you a 350-pound homosexual DougJ, just to irk me.
ppGaz
Yeah, it really explains Mahalia Jackson, for example.
And I hear that Louis Armstrong was quite the math whiz. Aren’t several prime numbers traceable to him?
Pooh
ppGaz your talking about ‘performance’, I’m talking about ‘theory’.
Steve
It’s like you won’t engage the issue at all, it’s just “obviously” dumb to you. That makes it kind of hard to have a serious discussion.
I happen to think computer programming is remarkably similar to the study of law. That doesn’t change the fact that lots of people are good at one but not the other.
ppGaz
Music is largely composition and performance, neither of which requires, or benefits from, any particular understanding of mathematics.
You are talking about a theory of analyzing music, not of music itself. Not of making music, writing music, or appreciating music.
You are saying the equivalent of “An understanding of metallurgy is important to driving a car.” Or “Being good at meteorology is important to writing a poem about clouds.”
It was a phenomenally dumb remark, no matter who made it.
ppGaz
You cannot possibly be serious. “Engage” the issue?
WTF are you talking about? I have been playing multiple musical instruments and writing music for 50 years, and I’m telling you, the remark was idiotic.
GOP4Me
We were having a serious discussion?
I don’t follow.
Pooh
I think the point of the original statement was that if someone fails algebra 6 times, they probably lack musical aptitude as well.
ppG, no one is saying that you need to be able to integrate natural logs to play music, rather that the ability to think ‘mathematically’ correlates strongly with the ability to think ‘musically’.
Perry Como
:ahem: “Crab Canon”.
GOP4Me
Saddam was a threat! Bush is a hero! Is that what we’re discussing here?
WTF are YOU talking about? Oh, music and stuff. I have nothing to say. Most music is crap, particularly rap. Beyond that, please leave me alone and stop hounding me.
ppGaz
That is absolutely nonsense. Bunk. I don’t know at this point if you are being serious or not. But I am, in this case, quite serious. The fact that a theory of analyzing music can be tied to, or based on, any mathematical theory does not extrapolate to the idea that music requires math, or musical ability goes with math ability, or any other grotesque connection somebody tries to draw there.
For example, the mathematical analsis of music can be done by a deaf person who has never heard, and never will hear, music. Music to that person could literally be nothing but a theory of numbers …. and that person’s understanding would not have anything to do with the experience of listening to Brahms, or the Doors. Or your five year old playing the piano.
tb
What the fuck’s your point?
It’s not. Music is an art. Its mathematical component is only important on a theoretical or analytical level. You don’t need any kind of mathematical knowledge to create it.
GOP4Me
Particularly if all they can produce is what passes for music nowadays. Basically, most of the 20th century music was absolute garbage, and judging by what I’ve seen so far 21st century music isn’t going to be any better. If this girl failing math means she’ll never release a solo album about how her parents made her hate God and snort heroin through her nose-ring, I’ll consider it a worthwhile measure by God to save our national sanity. Still a sad personal story, but my underlying question is: why are 200 people talking about this? Why not just each of you send her $5, if you care so much. She could do a lot more with $5 than with your pity. Like start a business, where success is based on hard work and good instincts, not degrees. Be her own boss, so no one can use her lack of a GED against her. Why not start a positive step like that instead of speculating about whether her crappy music would be slightly worse or slightly better than the crap put out by Mariah Carey, Sheryl Crow and Alanis Morisette?
ppGaz
tb has it right. This other stuff, honestly, is from some bizarro-world idea of what music is.
rilkefan
It’s conventional wisdom among physicists that being good at math correlates strongly with musical talent. I know a lot of crackerjack musicians through my work, and I’m not awful myself; and my brother’s a composer.
ppGaz
Good lord. That alone would be reason enough to never be in the same room with physicists.
Krista
Well, our mascot is a beaver, so that tends to foster a sense of humour, humility and perversion in most of us.
You’re so cute.
I’ve also heard that there’s some sort of correlation between math and music. Maybe they use the same part of the brain or something. But no, musical aptitude is certainly not dependant on mathematical aptitude.
rilkefan
GOP, tragedy of the commons. Better to figure out how to use our expeditures more wisely than to devote resources to stop-gap measures, esp. given the inequity of your proposed solution.
ppGaz
Musical aptitude is not dependent on any other aptitude, that I know of. At all.
Pooh
Ok, I’m a little out of my depth here, and I fully admit that, but am I incorrect in saying that the musical harmonies, chords and progressions which we find pleasing to the ear are defined, in part, by mathematical relationships between the wave frequencies of various notes? It seems to me that one can intuit those relationships without grasping the overarching mathematical framework.
I’m not talking about ability, I’m talking about aptitude.
To be clear, I’m not talking about music as art, but rather as sound. Or am I just woefully confused about the whole thing? (And, paranthetically, why are you so angry about it?)
Perry Como
ppGaz – music contains a ton of math. Some musicians (that write music) may not know that consciously, but it’s there. Listen to Les Claypool talk about the math behind his bass playing sometime.
Zifnab
Hey, I like Alanis Morisette.
That said, handing a high school drop-out bus fare with the expectation that she’ll suddenly use it to turn her life around is a bit of a joke. One of the reasons so few high school drop-outs become employeed (much less employeed for high salaries) is because if they didn’t have the fortitude to make it through high school, it’s unlikely they’ll have the fortitude to hold down a real job or develop a stable enterprise.
Certainly, it can be done. It’s just not likely.
Pooh
I’m not suggestion dependance, I’m suggesting correlation.
srv
ppgaz, it’s not about analyzing. GEB is about how alot of logic, art and musical forms and mathematics are intertwined. While you might say Free Jazz isn’t mathematical, alot of music follows patterns. Patterns imply something like math, not the other way around.
ppGaz
Jesus, I had no idea that such a bizarre misconception could be out there, and believed by intelligent and educated people. It’s …. a jaw dropper.
Music requires no math ability whatever. The fact that math can be applied to music, or that some math-heads are musical, or vice versa …. all irrelevant.
Music can be created, made and appreciated without any math ability or knowledge whatsoever. As for an “aptitude” connection, that’s why I said, show me the data that correlates math “aptitude” with musical “aptitude”. If such data exists, and indicates a connection, then examine the method, because it’s defective.
ppGaz
Music as tb said is art. A lot of art follows patterns, but not all. Not all music is about patterns, either.
Patterns may lend themselves to mathematical analysis or understanding, but they certainly do not require it.
The beauty of a pattern can be understood on many levels, and no understanding of the math is necessary.
You guys are saying something so bizarre, it’s beyond bizarre. It’s like saying you have to have a knack for superheterodynes to listen to the radio.
Perry Como
ppGaz, sorry man, but you are wrong. While the connection may be abstract there is a connection. When you are switching from 4/4 to 6/8 and changing keys you are doing some very complex calculations in your head. Mathematical calculations. You may not realize them as such, but that’s what they are.
I’d also recommend GEB:EGB if you want to read up on the subject. It’s dense, but it’s good.
SeesThroughIt
Well, I think you need to know math in order to play math rock. Sorry, sorry…it just had to be done.
At any rate, there is a good deal of overlap between math and music, whether it’s something as simple as the 16-bar structure and being able to count the bars or something more complex like how a lot of the most pleasing harmonies adhere to the Golden Ratio. But ability in one area does not necessarily translate to ability in (or understanding of) the other.
Pooh
ppGaz, I think you need to do a better job explaining how it is that we are incorrect. I get that you strongly disagree, I just don’t understand, as in I truly lack understanding and would like to know more, where you are coming from.
I don’t think anyone is attempting to be pejorative in saying that there is a strong math component to music.
Ok, on quick research, it appears that music helps with math, though this does not neccesarily imply the reverse.
rilkefan
Pooh, yep. This math-music thing has been known back to Pythagoras. ppGaz is just a little behind the times and suffering from a Romantic disposition as regards the art.
Sure, the point is that one is more likely to recognize and appreciate the pattern if one is mathematically inclined. I don’t apply my math degree when listening to Schubert or Soundgarden, or playing Telemann, but some of the same skills come into play.
Krista
Before you guys start biffing metronomes at each other, I just wanted to note that Maci is adorable. She’s what…5 months? And she already looks like she takes no guff off of anybody. I like that kid.
srv
I think he started beerblog early.
As I said myself. But most music that most people agree on does. What percentage of the population “gets” or “likes” Free Jazz? Why do you think that is? There’s a reason why alot of people don’t like Free Jazz and do like Bach. And there’s something innate about it.
Whether you get the “math” or not, it’s there, in your brain. Otherwise you’d be just playing random shit all the time.
Pooh
I have this sense that we’re being defeated by terminology rather than real disagreements here.
Gray
Actually, I was born on the same day as Tom Cruise, but I don’t like scientologists, so I have to vehemently support ppGaz and state that such comparisons are ridiculous!
Perry Como
Why do you hate people of faith?
rilkefan
Pooh, maybe ppGaz thinks we’re arguing mathematical accomplishment instead of aptitude.
tb
There’s a connection on a theoretical level. There’s not much of a connection on a creative level. Just because something is pattern-heavy does not make it “mathematical”. How mathematical is walking? On an analytical level you could say it’s completely mathematical, but for the person doing it it’s a completely organic process that requires zero mathematical aptitude.
srv
ppgaz,
Let’s try something different, not music. Is this Nautilus shell beautiful?
Logarithmic Spiral
Why? Is it art? Is it math?
It’s all of those things. And it isn’t just a mathematical “model”. Nature itself is exactly following this course for a reason. And we see it as beautiful, why? People all over the world, completely different cultures, look at this and find it beautiful. What is it that makes us believe it is more beautiful than say a clump of asphalt?
The same goes for most music.
Perry Como
If by “theoretcial” you mean “actual”, I agree.
rilkefan
Thought you were going for “theorectal”.
tb
I don’t follow you.
Steve
I have to interrupt this discussion for a great DougJ moment from the real world.
tb
I said on a theoretical as opposed to a creative level. What you’re saying makes no sense, because the creative level is just as “actual” as the other.
Perry Como
At some level everything is math. Most people don’t even think about it, but everything can be reduced to a formula. Things that are beautiful are often considered beautiful for a reason. Proportions on a face, colors that go well together, or notes that are played.
Some of these things can be quite easily modeled. Colors are one of those things. Other things are beyond our current understanding, like what is the formula for a good book, but we will one day be able to figure it out.
Music is very mathematical, even if the musicians don’t realize it. I’m not the best person to explain it, but I’ve talked to people in the past that have worked on projects that know the models explaining it (I’ll see if I can find the links to some of the stuff).
The creative process may not involve sitting down with a slide rule and some graph paper, but there’s a reason why you don’t hear many songs in 12/13 time and people don’t write chords with c, c#, and e in them.
(btw, walking does involve math, namely inverse kintematics, but that’s a little different ;)
Krista
steve – fantastic.
I’m a bit concerned about how he tracked her with a GPS, though…what in God’s name did he plant on (in) her?
tb
From a mathematician’s perspective.
Sure, and fucking is very biological. So what? What’s this supposed to mean?
I guess it depends on your perspective. For you, walking is math. For your 2-year-old it’s something else.
Gray
“I’m a bit concerned about how he tracked her with a GPS, though…what in God’s name did he plant on (in) her?”
Hmm, I guess that all he had to do was to order the service of a company that is tracking cellular phones. I read a story about those services recently, sry, dunno the link anymore. Normally, you got to have a written agreement from the person that is going to be tracked, but I guess a faked signature or some bribes will do the trick…
ppGaz
We may as well give it up, tb. These guys simply don’t get this. I never realized that people had this big blank spot in their heads about what art is.
The idea that since something artistic can be analyzed or described mathematically, it must be math, or like math, or any other semantic connection ….. just floors me.
Honestly, it’s just astounding to me. Can you imagine looking at the Mona Lisa and saying, you know, the reds in this are chromatically equal to the yellows times Pi, color temperature wise ….. and, having made such a bone-jarring observation, then believing that the artist made his color selection using the mathematical formula? Or that being able to make the calculation makes one a better painter?
I will not talk about this here any more, it’s too unnerving. It’s like finding out that your best friend thinks the earth is flat, or that the moon is made of green cheese. I mean, really thinks those things.
I’m off the blog for the weekend, this is just too crazy.
rachel
When I was in fourth grade, I had problems ‘getting’ simple arithmetic to the extent I got an ‘F’ on my report card. My dad sat me down, asked me what I was having trouble with and showed me how to do long division–and I ‘got’ it. After that, whenever it had trouble with maths, I went and asked my dad to explain it to me. By the time I got to high school, I didn’t have trouble with maths.
Where’s Gabriela’s dad?
Steve
I don’t see why it’s necessary to engage in this pretense that music is simply 110% pure art, and it makes Jesus angry if anyone tries to analyze how music is created.
Let’s start with the thesis that someone who is talented at creating music would likely be talented at mathematics instead, if that’s what they had chosen to devote their life to. I don’t get why this is so obviously false.
Perry Como
Heh. It’s the exact opposite. Things are not considered beautiful or pleasant to listen to “just because”. There is a reason. Objects don’t fall when dropped “just because”. There is a reason.
While there is creative process involved in art, there are often underlying principles that relate. You may see those things as color palletes or chords, but they are math.
tb – I can walk without understanding the biological process behind it. Does that mean there is no biological process involved because I don’t know what that process is?
The same can be applied to music. I can write a song without knowing the mathematics behind it, but does that mean there are no mathematics supporting the structure of the song?
Steve
Maybe the reason we’re not communicating is that no one at all is making the latter claim. However, if you did a study of great works of art and discovered that each and every one of them displayed some kind of mathematical ratio between the colors that were employed, would it violate the mystical nature of art to point that fact out?
tb
Is that what they’re trying to say? All I’m getting is that mathematics in music is a fascinating subject for them. I get a little impatient with this shit because for me it’s like an ornithologist lecturing a bird on the proper way to fly.
Perry Como
And like I said, no one is sitting down with a slide rule. Just because you don’t realize there’s a process behind what you do doesn’t mean a process doesn’t exist.
tb
No, but what’s the fucking point? Who experiences art on that level? No one. Not the viewer, not the painter.
What the fuck is this intolerance for ambiguity anyway? Why are you so married to this notion that art must be experienced as mathematical?
Gray
Found it. K, this is from the UK, but GSM is almost everywhere the same, so I would be surprised if you can’t get that ‘service’ in the US. After all, there are companies selling phone records, so why not sell tracking informations?
tb
I don’t need any help understanding process. I just bought a house with money I earned playing music. I’m saying that the creator does not need to be conscious of the process to create. That’s my professional opinion.
Perry Como
Gah. We’re talking past each other at this point. You don’t need to understand the math behind something to appreciate it. But understanding the math behind something may make you more appreciative.
In fact, understanding the math behind something may make you better at creating that something that you do.
The Disenfranchised Voter
LOL!
Hahahhahahaah. I’m just starting out in this thread, punks.
Since I know both Lines and DougJ, I felt the need to comment.
ROFL. Oh boy, this thread is looking good…
Steve
Maybe you could show me someplace where I expressed this notion that you claim I am so married to. I never tried to tell anyone how they should experience art. All I did was link to a book that discusses connections between mathematics and music, and the next thing you know all the artists were going off on me.
tb
I don’t know if Lou Reed, Charlie Patton or Billie Holliday would’ve been helped by more mathematical knowledge. It certainly is of no use to the listener in appreciating them. Do people who go to Carnivale in Rio and dance until 7 in the morning have a less true or full appreciation of music than you?
The Disenfranchised Voter
LMAO!
tb
You said some other things. My point is that this subject is of great interest to academics and other non-musicians, but to creative people it’s overly reductive and borders on anti-music. Dig up some Charlie Patton or Skip James and see if this mathematics business doesn’t sound like a little bit of a perversion relative to it. Fly to Dusseldorf and see if mathematics improve Pollock’s No. 32, 1950, or if they act as a barrier between you and the art.
Perry Como
Maybe, maybe not.
Knowing the methods behind something wouldn’t detract the appreciation.
I’d be too drunk to attempt it.
tb
Are you drunk right now? ;-)
Steve
Well, to people like me, who apparently have never listened to music in their lives, you guys sound a lot like temperamental artists! Fortunately on the Internet we can discuss these things without anyone getting punched in the nose, even if there’s been no real communication here.
The Disenfranchised Voter
LOL.
Scs says some pretty wacked out shit. I wouldnt put it past Doug “Master” J.
The Disenfranchised Voter
Oh Shit!
Pwnage by Krista! Ha.
tb
Bingo! ;-)
I wasn’t kidding about the Charlie Patton. Go and buy the CD (Founder Of The Delta Blues on Yazoo Records), listen to it straight through by yourself and then tell me how mathematical analysis improved the experience for you. You may do the same thing with John Coltrane’s Sun Ship (on Impulse). Are you up to the challenge?
Steve
“What is the deal with musicians?” I just asked my wife, who has been a musician her whole life, who comes from a family of musicians. She asked what I meant and I said we were having an argument about the relationship between mathematics and music. “Oh, there’s a huge relationship!” she instantly replied. I laughed so hard that she asked if I had been taking the other side of the debate.
Anyway, I totally have nothing against anyone who says a sunset is beautiful and that it kind of ruins it when scientists or mathematicians start trying to describe a sunset in technical terms. That’s cool, but it doesn’t mean science has nothing to tell us about the sunset.
The Disenfranchised Voter
Bwhahahahahahah.
Tim F.
You don’t have to understand math to appreciate it. Although it’s too late to go around digging up links, human aesthetic sense is positively influenced by the math and geometry underlying both visual and aural art. The golden mean, phi, is particularly appealing. We ‘feel’ math even when we don’t know that it’s math that we’re feeling, and artists ‘make’ math even though they don’t know that it’s math that they’re making. Truly extraordinary artists often get the math of their work precisely right even though they wouldn’t know Pythagoras from Asterix.
srv
Steve, they don’t get it. They’re just hearing what they want to hear and not thinking about what they really do when they make good music. They just want to believe it’s magic they pull out of their asses, and every musician before them was just the same.
Call it a liberal creationism. Music doesn’t follow patterns, and it doesn’t evolve.
srv
Oh, and tb, if all music is just random creations from randomness,
WHY DOES ALOT OF IT SOUND JUST THE SAME
Why are there music genres? It isn’t that MATH that describes those categories, it’s the MUSICIAN following something. And they aren’t divining tea leaves to do it.
Perry Como
I’m always up to a “challenge”. Especially anything related to Coltrane. Will you go pick up Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid?
Music and math go hand in hand like bread and flour. If you don’t know that flour makes the bread, don’t blame the grain.
srv
Oh, and it’s kinda funny you pick Coltrane. Read up on him. He became a fan of science, eastern religions/music, and gasp, math! Listen to his works in order, and I’ll bet even you can tell when that happened.
Pb
ppGaz, Pooh,
The very best mathematicians I have met have also been excellent musicians–there is certainly a link there, at the high end of the scale. I was decent at math, and I enjoy music, but I don’t think I have that much musical aptitude per se.
tb
It’s all true. But analysis is a barrier as often as it is an aid. Real appreciation comes through long hours of intensive, intellectually passive listening to a wide variety of music. People need to buy some motherfucking records and listen to them a lot.
Tim, I think what you’re referring to is design rather than strictly art. European museums are jammed literally to the ceiling with 18th-19th century academic works all meticulously crafted according to the ancient, supposedly eternal standards of perfection and you don’t want to look at any of them. The real art- the thing that makes you return to a piece again and again over the course of your life- the real art in, say, a Caravaggio is actually an unquantifiable conincidence of a lot of other things besides aesthetic perfection.
rilkefan
“Giant Steps” is very mathematical music.
Again, a lot of music creation and appreciation is about recognizing patterns, and a lot of doing math is … wait for it … recognizing patterns. Ditto holding a few things in your head at the same time and manipulating them mentally.
Typical composer-talk: “I was listening to so-and-so, and I realized that phrase was the right length to fit into this section, and it turns out by adjusting this interval I could get it to harmonize with …”
Typical mathematician-talk: – “I was listening to so-and-so, and I realized his technique could apply to this algebra if I just fiddled with the mapping function, and it turns out that this lemma pops out …”
tb
Sorry, S- you can’t teach me anything about Coltrane. And don’t think I’m not a fan of science or math. I just think it’s overrated as a tool for understanding music.
Pooh
Not to jump back in and stir shit up, but given where we’ve been, is the original statement (roughly that someone who was so mathematically inapt that they failed algebra 6 times is unlikely to make a living as a musician) really that ridiculous?
tb
That’s why it’s one of my least favorite tunes of his; I’m not sure Trane even thought of it as much of a song- it was more a vehicle for him to work out some harmonic ideas. It does stump a lot of players because it’s so technically demanding. I don’t find it pretty or particularly fun to play from a rhythm section player’s standpoint.
Pooh
Further, I’m sorry if I seemed overly ‘reductionist’. My favorite music is blues, which (like Jazz) is defined primarily by how it differs from mathematical ‘perfection’ (the “blue note”) and all.
Speaking of Charlie Patton (or R. Johnson or T. Johnson or BL Jefferson or Leadbelly or Son House) of course they ‘understood’ the math to the extent that their mastery of the ins and outs of the pentatonic scale was mathematical.
tb
You don’t really know, do you? Maybe the kid was a genius or such a radically strange thinker that he was unable to deal with the educational system. Maybe he needed special attention and got the same shitty teacher every time he retook the class. Maybe he was just stupid. But lots of people, even some of the greatest musicians in the world, had little or no formal education at all.
tb
What’s the song? “Death Letter Blues”? Absolutely crushing.
tb
I guess that’s why I get so vehement about this- if a person listens to a song like that and comes out talking about Pythagoras I just want to say ‘motherfucker, why aren’t you in tears after that?’
Perry Como
It’s all quantifiable. Bringing it back, you’re a musician. What do you write your scores in? 4/4? How often do you switch times? Have you ever written a piece in 4/13? I’d love to hear it.
btw Pooh, we called those Jazz scales in my days.
ppGaz
The question was not whether science, or math, could “tell you something about” a sunset, or music.
The question is whether an aptitude for math was associated with an aptitude for music. Whether the talents are related.
That’s not even close to being the same thing, at all.
The fact that a mathemetician can ‘tell you something’ about music does not correlate to a link between talents for music and math.
Where is the data to support a conclusion that the talents for music and math go together?
Music is art, and it’s subjective.
Have you ever heard the expression, “There is no accounting for taste?” It’s true. Both literally, and figuratively. Music is art, it’s all about taste, and subjective judgment.
Can you tell the difference between a tune played on a player piano, perfectly, identical every time, and one played by a human, imperfect, and different every time?
The piano roll can be constructed to play the tune in a technically perfect way. But the human performance is where the art is. Because it is both flawed, and inspired by the performer, it has the capacity to be terrible, or wonderful, or even magical. The thing that can make it magic is musical talent, and musical talent is not tied to mathematical talent.
What makes one recording of a concerto dull, and another absolutely breathtaking, when both are the same notes played on the same instruments in the same order?
I cannot believe that intelligent people would sit around talking about such a thing and think that it is about math, or a talent for math. Any more than they’d think that about sculpting, painting, or playwriting.
Would you suggest that because some poetry can be parsed mathematically, that having a talent for math would be linked to having a talent for being a poet? Well, some people here probably would. God save me from having to be around any of those people when they are, uh, performing.
The only way I can even compute such a boneheaded idea is that maybe some people think that the ability to read music is the same thing as musical ability, or talent. Or that the ability to play a piece on the piano is musical talent. “Figuring out” how to do something is not the same thing as having a talent for it. I can figure out how to do a lot of things I have no talent for at all.
I absolutely promise you, there are things are are not teachable, and which cannot be analyzed, in humanness. Music is about humanness. You cannot teach talent, for anything. One either has talent, or one does not. Some call these things “gifts.” The gift is a mystery.
I have no problem with the idea that a mathemetician or scientist can “tell me something” about art. But I have a big problem with the notion that that ability makes him an artist. It might make him a better artist … if he is already an artist. But it does not make him an artist. Or a musician.
I reject the idea that there is even a correlation between aptitudes. I know of no data to support such a conclusion. Physicists are often musicians? So what? Perhaps because they are highly educated, they have been educated in music along with many other things. Perhaps they “learned how to play” an instrument. Perhaps they even play it relatively well because they are inclined toward the discipline that it requires. But that doesn’t correlate to talent or natural ability. You could just end up with David Helfgott, who plays all the notes, and in the right order … and sounds terrible to the ear that knows what really great Rachmaninoff sounds like.
tb
Then why hasn’t it been? Where are all the studios cranking out masterpieces like they were ashtrays?
Jesus Christ. The reason no one writes in “4/13” is because western notation is based on even rhythmic divisions; there is no symbol for a “13th note”. Odd divisions like 3’s, 5’s, 7’s etc always notated relative to the standard half/quarter/8th note values. What’s up? Are you playing dumb to make some kind of point, or do you really know nothing about notation?
rilkefan
Nobody tell ppGaz about “he lisped in numbers”. Anyway, it’s a false comparison, since musical talent is quite different from poetic talent, but sure. It’s just not a widely-recognized phenomenon like the coupling of math and musical talents.
ppGaz
I’d say it was more dumb, than ridiculous.
First of all, somebody who fails at anything 6 times has something going on that we haven’t explained. By that I mean, fails at a course of study over a period of time, and does that 6 times (as different from, say, falling off a bike six times before learning to stay up on the bike).
But saying that a person failed a class doesn’t tell us much about the person’s capacity for the thing being taught. A person can fail a class because she can’t see the blackboard, and doesn’t know that she needs glasses. Or because there is some other impediment to learning unrelated to the suject matter. Or just wants to fail. Or is mentally ill. Or … whatever. Looked at in this way, the six failures tell you nothing, at all, that would let you predict the person’s capacity or talent for music.
The entire premise of the original dumb statement is that it is the fact that she failed a MATH class, in particular, that is a predictor of low musical talent.
I found that assertion to be absurd when I first saw it, and I find it even more absurd upon relfection and discussion here. It’s just beyond wrongness, it is in a realm of wrong-headedness that leaves one shaking his head and wondering what on earth anyone could be thinking when he said such a thing. Really, it’s that bad.
It’s David Helfgott bad. If you think Helfgott is a good pianist, then the dumb assertion could be true. In fact, any assertion could be true, and you could be a Republican.
I mean that literally. It’s that bad. It’s in the same class of bad ideas as thinking that what this country needs is a Defense of Marriage Act, or that global warming is a scam cooked up by liberals. It’s that bad.
ppGaz
Hmm. You might want to listen to the Brubeck Quartet and the Time Out and Time Further Out Albums.
Let’s count together on Blue Rondo a la Turk, on the Carnegie Hall album. You start ….
ppGaz
No, it is an exactly apt comparison.
Perry Como
Crap. Math. You aren’t creative anymore.
rilkefan
Amusingly, people said this same crap about beautiful creative chess, until the computers started producing it in greater measure than humans. – Funny story, a strong grandmaster, Nigel Short, played a bunch of games over the internet recently. His opponent mopped the floor with him. Short looked at the games and became convinced that he’d been playing Bobby Fischer, because a) no other human could have slapped him around that way and b) the other guy’s stuff was so magical and creative and blather blather. Turns out he’d been playing a program.
tb
Oh, P, not you too- I said odd divisions not odd meters. BRalaT is in 9/8 (2+2+2+3/8) if memory serves and that in no way contradicts what I said in response to Perry.
The Disenfranchised Voter
Alright fuck this, there are too many hilarious comments in this post. I’m just goo copy and paste ’em all as I go along.
Let’s start with this amazing comment by Perry Como:
LMAO!
Did you just persoanlly censor the word “pissed” in you comment Gray?
Hahaha, what a fucking pussy!
As lame as this may sound, I consider just about all of you my friends.
=)
LOL.
Pure quality by Lines.
Wow I seriously have to end this comment right now because what I am about to post not only amazes me, it is one of the worst ass-wipings I have ever seen…
The Disenfranchised Voter
Oh shit!
Wow, you were totally fucking owned scs–Without a doubt.
ppGaz
Again, I have to question whether you are being serious. Knowing you and your history, I’d guesstimate that you are just trolling me at this point.
Comparing chess, to music? Are you talking about the moves, or the style of play?
A computer can do the moves. But a human can sit, and fidget, and look, and breathe and rub his finger on on his chin a certain way while playing, and provide his companions with twenty ways to experience the game and the series of moves. He can impose a style and a personality upon the scene and the match.
It’s not just about moving the pieces. In music, it’s not just about playing the notes.
Besides, your example would cause me to say that it’s about the imagination of Mr. Short, not about the computer’s ability to play chess.
But of course, it’s an inapt comparison. One cannot listen to Helfgott and imagine that he is listening to Richter. He’d have to be drunk, or insane, or deaf.
rilkefan
Poetic talent and musical talent are in different parts of the brain, as shown by idiot savant musicians who can barely talk. (Well, far beyond my expertise there.)
I’ve never heard it claimed that poetic and musical talent are strongly correlated in the way math and music are. I can’t recall reading “Tennyson was a fine singer, unsuprising given his poetic talent.” You do hear, “Einstein was a fine violinist; many physicists are musically talented.”
I have heard music, math, and language acquisition being linked – and in fact I’ve often observed those talents going together.
ppGaz
Well … you’ve got me there. That’s the way most people would count it. I think the liner notes have Brubeck counting it that way. But you can count it as 1 to 9, it just feels odd until you get used to it. However, I’ll concede the point because a musician will count it 2-2-2-3 as a way to make it feel more natural. The 1-9 count serves no musical purpose. It’s an interesting experiment, though.
Pooh
Music = irreducible complexity, therefore there only god can create music.
That’s me trolling you in this thread. Don’t be an ass.
ppGaz
I didn’t say that poetic and musical talent were tied. I was arguing within a specific context, namely, the notion that since a mathemetician or scientist could “tell us something” about music, or any art, did not correlate to a link between talents for math and the art.
Thus, a mathematical description of a poem might “tell us something” about the poem, but that doesn’t mean a link between math talent and poetic talent.
The point being that the “tell us something” assertion is not relevant to the question of a link between talents.
ppGaz
My sentences strucures are disintegrating as the hour grows later.
Please make this correction:
rilkefan
I guess you don’t play chess, or you’d know how much emotion can be evoked by a move – pity, wonder, humor – or how beautiful an unfolding plan can be, or how aggressive or wild or violent an attacking move can be, or how much strength and bravery is demonstrated by a careful defense. I can show you moves by Shirov that made me gasp, or moves that I could recognize as being by my friend James from college because that was exactly his personality.
Of course chess has well-defined rules and goals, but it’s a creative human endeavor where computers find what any panel of judges would call beautiful, brilliant moves.
Our behavior comes from our brains, which are biological computers. To say that math and music are linked is just to observe that common modules in those computers are involved.
No clue why you find this so alien.
tb
It’s easier to count and it’s also the way the riff is phrased- DA-do-DA-do-DA-do-DA-do-do.
But this has nothing to do with my response to Perry’s nonsensical (sorry!) question about the bottom number of a time signature.
ppGaz
Eh? You are talking as if we are weighing the question based on which compartments of the brain light up during music, and which during math exercise, and which during sex, I suppose, and which during grocery shopping.
Which might be interesting from the standpoint of understanding how the brain, as an apparatus works.
But what do you do when you scan the brains of Helfgott, who plays like a gorilla, and Richter, who plays like a goddamned deity, an angel, and a beautiful woman giving you a blow job all at the same time …. so that you have the brains of the shitty pianist and the great pianist both scanned there on your Stanfor Linear Brain scanner, and the two pictures look EXACTLY THE SAME?
What do you do then? Because the music is not the same. One is crap, and the other is magical.
It isn’t about which modules in the computer are working. It’s about something else, which is not explainable at this time, so far as I know. And if I sought an explanation, I’d hope to sit down with a Richter, and not with a damned radiologist. Because Richter might teach me something about playing, while the radiologist would teach me how to operate a scanning machine. Like I presume you would.
ppGaz
You are correct.
ppGaz
So, we either have to call it a night at this point, or else I am going to introduce the matter of synesthesia and knock over all the furniture. I’m going to argue that music, and art in general, are experiential things, and that it’s the experience of them that matters, and nothing else. So, you know, if studying the mathematical patterns in music bakes your cookie, then go for it. But you are missing out, because the real action ain’t in the numbers.
tb
Chess has an orders-of-magnitude narrower set of parameters than music does, so it’s not necessarily shocking that computers can beat it. It is also not art in anything like the usual sense; it’s a game. It can be appreciated aesthetically, but so can a lot of things that are not art.
rilkefan
Well, Richter’s brain isn’t scannable, but if Maurizio Pollini wore my portable scan-o-matic while playing Schubert’s Op 959 or whatever, I suspect that we’d see complex structures of association as the chords progressed, as themes came and went, as keys changed. We’d see extraordinarily dense links from the mathomusical region into the limbic region. We’d see extra-active glial cells in both areas. We’d see extremely developed motor regions for the hands, linked to the above.
Doing the same with Helfgott I imagine we’d see a lot going on in the musicomath region, but not as complex and extensive; and we’d see similar coordination development – but the limbic stuff would be mostly missing and the interregional links would be much weaker.
ppGaz
Like blog posting, for example.
I think my nickname for Cheney’s human clay pigeon, “Old Birdshot Head”, is a kind of work of art, for example.
tb
I try to use profanity as artistically as fucking possible.
ppGaz
Well, as you know, we’ll never find out, since Richter is dead and Helfgott would probably be terrified of the machine. (He is still alive? Too lazy to look it up).
Therefore, I claim that the point goes to me :-)
Thank you for an interesting discussion.
rilkefan
Alright, ppGaz, catch you on another thread.
Perry Como
tb Says:
It has everything to do with it. You understand the underlying math for music even though you may not know it’s math.
Is it possible to write a piece that is in 12/13 time? Sure. It won’t be pleasant. But it’s possible. Just because you accept quarter notes at certain frequencies doesn’t mean that’s where they are.
Pooh Says:
Exactly.
srv
As always, I respect everyone elses right to be wrong.
The Disenfranchised Voter
Back to commenting regularly…
I’d buy one. Heh…
Watch out, krista! Scs is about to question you on the validity of carbon dating since she believes that ID is a credible theory!
You’re in trouble sister!!!
The Disenfranchised Voter
Oh yeah. That’s what you get for behaving decently. You will be insulted by bullies who want to know how far they can push you. What kind of an a**hole philosophy is that?
and
No, really? Who knew? Is this the result of the latest study?
See, this kind of thing is not only entertaining, it’s educational. We learn just by hanging around this kind of stuff. Who’d have thought that dropping our meant negative outcomes? Is up now down, and black now white?
Nicely worded, sir…
LOL! With that I need to quit for tonight…
Too funny.
Peace people and take care.
Gray
Boy how dumb can questions become? Of course I did write it that way myself, or do you think John would bother to insert the stars? I even can tell you the reason: I post at many blogs and some use a profanity filter that will block your comments if a four letter word is detected. So most of the time I avoid using them.
As for your f- p- statement: You better apologize or I’ll transform you into your own sister if we ever meet in RL.
ppGaz
While tb’s answer was correct, it might not have addressed the (possibly spoof) spirit of your question.
So my answer would be: Yes, if you are willing to accept a scheme of notation that can employ the 13th note. I can’t think of any musical reason to do so. The even-numbered scheme employed now has the distinct advantage of lending itself to being compressed and expanded (quarter note to eighth, or sixteenth to eigth) easily.
Half of a thirteenth note would be …. hmm. Ugly, you see. It would just be ugly. And serve no purpose. The bottom number is a relative time value, and why would we want other than an integer in there? What would be the point?
Last but not least, since your question was probably asked drunk, it probably should be answered drunk. For that, you need Stormy.
Krista
TDV – glad to amuse you. :)
Funny, I never was good at music theory. I can read music, and I can play by ear, but if you started asking me theoretical questions about music, I’d be at a complete loss.
All I know is that when I’m listening to Moonlight Sonata, as I am now, is that it winds its way into my blood, and makes me want to close my eyes and just let it envelop me. There might be math behind it, but there’s also magic.
tb
Yes, Perry, I know what math is and I know music I know how they relate. But it’s not necessary to to play or fully appreciate music.
You’re going to have to prove it. Tell me how you notate one measure of 13th notes in 12/13 time.
Please clarify. Are you saying that “quarter note” is really an arbitrary value and that they could “really” be half notes or 13th notes or 50th notes or quadruple whole notes?
I guess you’d be right. The reason we choose to call them quarter notes and not some prime number is because western notation is based on divisions of what’s called a “whole” note. The only divisions that are given discrete symbols are the even values. Odd values are notated with a cludge: you use the symbols for the nearest standard (even) value and put a bracket and a number over them that tells the performer something like “these eighth notes are really a triplet”.
So to base your composition off an odd value, you’d still be using the symbols for the even values anyway, so what’s the fucking point? You’d just be substituting one arbitrary name for another, except the one you’d be choosing would be arguably worse because it is impossible to reconcile with the convention of western notation.
Wow, this is fucking. Boooring. This is first-year theory student shit. If you approach music on this level you are absolutely missing the point.
tb
Maybe some weed would help. Dood, what if quarter notes were really, like, fourteen-and-a-halfth notes? That’d like blow everyone’s mind.
ppGaz
I think it’s the arbitrary part that gets him (in a spoof way, or in the slightly gay way that he is asking the question. Besides, is he drunk? I wouldn’t answer him unless he were drunk at the time he reads the answer).
There’s nothing a math lover hates more than an arbitrary number.
Unless it’s an imaginary number, maybe.
Let’s write some music in 3/103 time. Someday, drawings of us will appear in the dictionary.
Kimmitt
Of course, but the academic understanding informs the lecture and activities.
tb
That and calling something “unquantifiable”. That really irks them.
ppGaz
I know. Maybe they’ll tell us how much.
Is there an irk scale? There really should be.
I’ll invent it and name it after myself.
Perry Como
Sarcasm somehow gets lost over the Al Gore created internets.
I have an idea. Let’s create time signatures like /2, /4, /8, /16. There’s no pattern to it however. After all, math has nothing to do with music.
Bit, byte, word.
ppGaz
I can’t imagine anything more fun that listening to, say, Pavarotti singing “Celeste Aida” and having somebody like you point out the mathematical patterns in it.
I always want a guy like you in the room when I am listening to music. To enhance my enjoyment, I mean.
ppGaz
Not in a gay way, though. More in the imaginary he-man mathematician way.
tb
Dom Irrera! The man!
srv
Man, they still haven’t sobered up.
rilkefan
He’ll be the guy in the room saying, notice how Pavarotti lengthens the A-flat each time the theme is repeated, and how the last time he cuts it a bit short and allows the silence to carry the note’s implication, emphasizing the aria’s tone of loss and absence?
So just to weigh in briefly about the “music can be expressed mathematically, therefore” controversy above – the point isn’t [or shouldn’t be] that you need to be mathematically gifted to understand how to count cut time, or think about chords in terms of numbers – the point is that music has properties of simplicity and symmetry and structure that allow it to be expressed in math terms, and mathematical talent will give greater access to and control over those properties.
Perry Como
I prefer Faith Based Music(TM), thankyouverymuch. Anyone suggesting that math and music have anything in common hates music and hates God.
The Disenfranchised Voter
LOL.
What a douchebag.
ppGaz
No it won’t. That’s just silly. I’m sorry, but fifty years of being around music in various situations, and around musicians, compel me to tell you that you are full of beans.
What you said there makes about as much sense as declaring that since instruments are made mostly of wood and metal, a talent for wood and metal working will make me a better musician. Music is in the ear, as visual arts are in the eye. The ear hears in a myriad of ways. When making music, it isn’t likely that mathematical constructs are dancing in the head.
When you say that music “has properties” you mean that it can be seen to have these properties. Not that it has to be, should be, or often is. Also there is no correlation between the extent and nature of these properties, and the desirability or beauty of the music. Musicality, like beauty, is in the beholder. Music lives in the experience of music, not in the ways in which technicians can take it apart and analyze it. Note that I am not saying that a technician can’t make good music. I am saying, though, that one does not have to be a theoretician or technician to make, perform, write, or appreciate music.
This thing you are describing is just an aspect of what one brings to music, that inventory being different from person to person. You, in your misguided way, might bring a mathematical bent to music. Another person brings something else. Your bent is not essential. It’s just yours.
I can imagine a musical world of all mathematicians. I imagine it to be like Liberace.
tb
Hey, I work all the time with Liberace’s (and Elvis’) conductor of many years. So watch out, motherfuckers. If that awesome fact doesn’t give me some credibility on this subject, I don’t know what could.
ppGaz
Really? Holy cow. Where do you work?
Anyway, I happen to know that this is rilkefan’s favorite record
It’s filled with interesting lyrical patterns.
tb
Amazing, eh? I play music on a cruise ship on the Columbia.
ppGaz
Whoops, the old blindness kicking in. I checked out your site.
Aren’t you the person who exposed my delusion about playing like Joe Morello? (A few months ago).
tb
Sounds familiar- I don’t remember what I would’ve said, tho..
ppGaz
I claimed that I could play like Joe Morello. Somebody, maybe you, correctly pointed out that nobody can play like Joe Morello. And then I said, I pretended that I could when I was younger, and I’d prefer to hang on to that delusion for a while longer, or something like that.
For the record, nobody can play like Joe Morello AFAIC.
ppGaz
Rilke, my email address can be divined from the material on the home page of my url.
Drop me a line.
cheers,
Kimmitt
ppGaz, gotta say, I’ve known some composers, and they’re all gifted mathematically. Playing music may not have much to do with math or theory (and popular music may be fairly derivative), but composing seems to be in a very different place.
ppGaz
What did they compose?
ppGaz
Revise and extend my remarks, please:
1) How many composers?
2) How do you know them?
3) What did they compose?
4) How do you know they are “gifted mathematically?”
Thanks.
demimondian
ppG — I know at least one composer; my eldest son writes music. Punk rock, if you want to know, although he’s also done some orchestral stuff.
He would be good at math if it interested him in the least. It doesn’t, and as a result, he struggles.
And I’m the person who pointed out that nobody plays like Joe Morello.
demimondian
Actually, tb, this statement, although historically correct, is factually wrong:
In fact, one of the emergent properties of any complex system is period doubling, where the factor of two comes from the topological property of a closed surface of genus zero dividing a space into exactly two parts.
In light of this fact, the fact that musical expression tends to be in terms of powers of two is actually not surprising; in a technical sense, any other prime is difficult to prolate into.
Unless you’re Joe Morello.
ppGaz
Ah, thanks demi. I couldn’t remember who it was.
I dug out my Brubeck Quartet collection after that exchange and listened to every track I have. Sometimes I forget how fabulous those guys were.
Krista
tb – love your site, by the way. Those macro shots of the miniatures were incredible.
tb
Thanks, D- Can you translate that into English so I can use it the next time I have to field stupid questions about “14/13” time? No, the ‘powers of two’ thingy isn’t surprising, but it is still a somewhat arbitrary convention that our notation accomodates the odd divisions so clumsily, and makes meter signitures like “4/5” impossible to notate. Even triplets (which have been common in western music at least as long as modern notation has) have to be notated with the cludge I mentioned earlier.
But that was the main point I was trying to make: that Perry was an ass for asking such a musically illiterate question.
tb
Thanks Krista! Check back in about 3 weeks- I’ll be posting some awesome shots of Rome around then! tb
scs
Krista, your logic escapes me. First you admit that you provoked me and made fun of me, and then you WANT ME TO TAKE THE BLAME FOR IT? My respect for you has gone donwhill here hon. If you provoke someone and make fun of someone over a point, don’t be surprised if they challenge you on that point. Unlike you, I was more than polite in trying to you to prove to you that your point was not supported. I take no blame whatsoever for trying to engage you in a polite debate. I don’t see that as “pushing you”. If you tired of the debate, you had the option of just not responding, or leaving the page.
Unfortunately, not only were you rude and disingeneous, your debating skills leave something to be desired as well. Perhaps that’s why you got so frustrated and insulting, because you couldn’t win the debate through logic. First you started off saying I was “wrong” and “paranoid” for thinking that Lines was DougJ. Then when I gave you the logic behind why there was a good case to be made that Lines WAS DougJ, instead of rebutting that, you then changed your argument to in effect admit, “okay, maybe Lines might be DougJ – but you are immature to care”. That is what I call a traveling argument. When you get rebutted on one issue, you open up another and pretend that was the issue the whole time.
Like I said, you acted judgemental of me for commenting when I get insulted, but again I wonder how YOU would act in such a situation when YOU are challenged. Judging from the one brief time I challenged you – not that well. So you are in no position to talk condescendingly, hon.
And as to your point that if I opened up a blog no one would comment, I wonder. Everytime I make the most innocuous comment on here I get a ton of posts in reply. Half this 400 comment segment was pretty much about me and most segments I am in turn into being about me. Not because I want that, but, for good or bad, I obviously provoke attention. Getting attention is obviously what you want when you start a blog. I wonder if I really would only get 3 posters. Somehow, judging from my reaction here, I think I may end up getting more.
scs
And The Disenfranchised Voter, when Krista was talking about blogs getting 3 comments, I believe she must have seen yours.
scs
And DV, for the hundreth time, I do not believe in ID. Again I will repeat the gist of what I said about ID. I thought the exagerated response to it and mistaken ideas as to what the theory actually said needed some clarification here. And I also thought ID had a good point that “irreducible” complexity, or complexity, as a major feature in species development, and cellular development, needed to be more clearly explained in evolution theory. The explanation that evolution provides now for these issues, which is bascially “uhh, we don’t really know – but, uhh, we’re working on it”, is just not good enough for this day and age, and should be better, and ID is justified in that point for bringing that critique to the forefront.
I thought this blog was a place to be open-minded and debate the finer points of an issue and examine differnt angles of an issue. However you don’t seem able to do that, as you continue to confuse those two valid points that I supported, as being the same as “believing in ID”, Maybe you really are a brainwashed Democrat, or maybe just an idiot. But what else should I expect from someone who calls women he debates with on blogs c**ts.
scs
Sorry one more – I just can’t get over Krista:
Krista- it’s called a DEBATE. I don’t have to stop commenting when you tell me you’re ‘annoyed’. The way you phrased that, it’s like you’re acting like my boss or my boyfriend or something, not a fellow blogger. If you don’t want to discuss issues, don’t type in a blog. And I certainly don’t have to ask your permission to continue to comment. And you’re not going to stop me by swearing or insulting or otherwise flipping your lid. You’ll only stop me when you make an origianl point, not just by trying to blend in and echoing what you see. Maybe when you actually start thinking for yourself, that day will come.