This sort of news doesn’t help us.
As part of an information offensive in Iraq, the U.S. military is secretly paying Iraqi newspapers to publish stories written by American troops in an effort to burnish the image of the U.S. mission in Iraq.
The articles, written by U.S. military “information operations” troops, are translated into Arabic and placed in Baghdad newspapers with the help of a defense contractor, according to U.S. military officials and documents obtained by the Los Angeles Times.
Apparently military brass didn’t know about it:
The military’s top commanders, including Gen. Peter Pace, the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, did not know about the Lincoln Group contract until Wednesday, when it was first described by The Los Angeles Times, said a senior military official who was not authorized to speak publicly.
Pentagon officials said General Pace and other top officials were disturbed by the reported details of the propaganda campaign and demanded explanations from senior officers in Iraq, the official said.
And this is just sad:
U.S. officials in Washington said the payments were made through the Baghdad Press Club, an organization they said was created more than a year ago by U.S. Army officers. They are part of an extensive American military-run information campaign – including psychological warfare experts – intended to build popular support for U.S.-led stabilization efforts and erode support for Sunni Muslim insurgents.
Members of the Press Club are paid as much as $200 a month, depending on how many positive pieces they produce.
Let’s imagine that you’re Joe Q. Iraqi. You’ve just heard about this story, and then you pick up your copy of the Baghdad Times. Page 1, above the fold, has a feelgood piece about an American Colonel who donated two month’s pay to help a center for battered women get on its feet. What’s your reaction? Be honest. Maybe the day before you would have decided to cut off your 15-dinar-a-month donation to the local Sunni resistance cell, and screw their damn tote bag. Now, you probably feel jaded and more than a little manipulated.
This story discredits every positive thing that’s ever been written about us in Iraq, whether Americans had anything to do with it or not. How can Joe Iraqi know if the story’s real or if the writer’s on the take? He can’t. So our brilliant imagemeisters in DC have once again managed to achieve precisely the opposite of what they set out to do. Now comes the wait to see who will be the first to blame the press for reporting it.
*** Update ***
This part is written by John:
I was tempted to just leave this issue alone, because I am grossly indifferent to this ‘shocking’ (SHOCKING!) story. However, since Tim has brought it up, let me add my two cents.
1.) To our media darlings at the LA Times and NY Times who apparently are just shocked and appalled that the military might engage in psyops to accomplish the nefarious deed of swaying public opinion towards embracing democracy rather than chaos, I just want to say- “Stop it.” This is par for the course, and if they were not trying to sway public opinion in Iraq with whatever means necessary, they would be derelict in their duties.
2.) I do wonder, were this 1944, if whether or not the American national press would run stories with a headline that stated:
“Patton’s Army FRAUD- US 14th Army and British 4th Army Part of Elaborate Ruse, According to Sources“
I just watched Hardball with Chris Matthews, and Matthews and Ron Reagan (“We’re supposedto be fighting for truth and freedom and liberty and JUSTICE over there!”) were simultaneously mortified and gleeful that this had been uncovered. Mortified, because how dare the Pentagon try to do something like this and undermine the ‘pillar of democracy’ (yeah- look at our national media and say that again to yourself without giggling). Gleeful for the obvious reasons- another reason to bash the Pentagon, this administration, the CIA, and the war effort in Iraq.
3.) I find it amusing that this is the same press that was HORRIFIED that Al Hawza, the vile front for Shiite cleric Muqtada Al-Sadr, was shut down, and that entire paper served as nothing but a COMPLETE AND TOTAL purveyor of propaganda against the United States. Apparently, if we just set up newspapers that were disseminiating OVERT propaganda, it would be ok. Or maybe it isn’t that it was propaganda, it was that it was not anti-Bush. Take your pick.
4.) None of this mitigates what Tim stated above, that the exposure is going to probably have a negative effect on our efforts. If it was uncovered by our lazy and mendacious press, it was a clumsy effort, and the Pentagon should be hit across the knuckles for that.
5.) I should also point out I have seen nothing that says anything in these stories was untrue, just that they were lopsided in support of the US. In other words, the kind of one-sided view you see EVERY FLIPPING DAY in the pages of the US press. Go count how many times you have read a special interest groups PR release re-written as a ‘news piece.’
I am just waiting for the rhetorical overreach for some on the left to begin, and the claims that we are ‘no better than Saddam’s state-run media.’ Because you know that the useful idiots will be unable to control themselves, again.
Paddy O'Shea
Yo, check this shit out. Time Magazine reporter Michael Ware went on CNN today and claimed Shrubbie fibbed his little pink Connecticut fanny off about the role of iraqi troops at Tal Afar. Ware was an embedded reporter there, and what he saw was something far different.
http://thinkprogress.org/2005/12/01/embedded-time-reporter
John S.
I was listening to a discussion about this topin on the Diane Rehm Show today. When this topis came up, Max Boot, senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations, started saying that it was OK for us to manipulate the press with propaganda because the terrorists do the same thing with al-Jazeera.
So rather than practice the message that we preach, we should lower ourselves to the standards of our enemies. I love when right-wingers lower the bar like that.
The Disenfranchised Voter
Already happened. Pat Buchanon just did precisely that on Hardball.
Good post Tim. You presented the core problem about doing this type of stuff well.
jg
I’m sure the Freepers are going to blame this on the liberal media. If the media were patriotic they wouldn’t publish this stuff.
John S.
My apologies for struggling with the word topic.
Eural
It didn’t take long – The National Review is already bitching about the LA Times blowing the operations cover and ending its effectiveness. Don’t have the link at the moment but check at Think Progress (they’ve got a bunch of right wing responses).
Pb
Yawn. Standard PSYOP propaganda tactics. We know they’ve done the same in the US, why are we surprised that they’d do it in Iraq.
Of course, Sully has no problem with this because apparently in his mind, we’re at war with the Iraqi people. He’s just annoyed because it’s too easy to get caught lying nowadays.
Pb
John S.,
I’m not at all surprised to hear an opinion like that coming from the CFR. Although the justification–the race to the lowest common denominator between us and terrorist organizations–is a bit disturbing, yes.
Stormy70
Do you guys study history at all? You use the press for propaganda purposes to make your side look good. This is a war we are engaged in, not pattycake.
Off topic – I know some of you are obsessed with the ID vs. Science crap (i am looking at you, John Cole) and remembered a post about the class at the University of Kansas debunking ID. The class was cancelled since the professor acted like a moron in an email to a student forum. I love the clueless “Academia” class.
Ancient Purple
We had Armstrong Williams, so why would anyone be surprised by this?
This is exactly why every single thing the federal government contracts out for should be done by a very public bidding process. I don’t care if there is only one firm that can do it, you bid it out anyway. Then, once the contract is complete, all RFP documents and the contract is published on the procurement department’s website for public inspection.
As a safety net, any company that accepts a no-bid contract from the U.S. government – once it is disclosed – will be perma-banned from ever doing business again with the U.S. government.
Cheney says we are making progress over there. If we are making progress, then we don’t need the propoganda machine in action.
So, I am left to believe that things are not going well in Iraq and Bush is an ass.
Otto Man
I’ve been wondering where he’s been. Apparently, Baghdad.
John S.
Shorter Stormy: War justifies any behavior.
Thanks for that perspective. I’m sure Max Boot will be glad to know that there are people who agree it is acceptable to stoop to the level of terrorists because we’re at war.
stickler
Ah, the rationalizations are not far to find:
Yeah, until you get caught lying. Then your side doesn’t end up looking too “good” at all.
Remember back when the limp-wristed liberals told us that the BBC and VOA would help us win the Cold War? Because our news outlets told the truth and the Soviet “news” media was full of lies?
We are the Soviets now. Cool.
don surber
“We’ve got to win the hearts and minds”
We try and anti-war creeps jump all over it.
Tim, another W-P taht you fell for
Stormy70
Yes, we are as bad as terrorists, blah, blah, blah. How dare we employ everything in our power to win a media war against the terrorists?! I think our national media is a disgrace, and I now believe they want us to lose. It explains their behavior since the War on Terror began. I question their patriotism, I sure as hell do.
This is another example of a good National Security leak, isn’t it? I will see no outrage from the Left for any leak that would hurt America’s goals in the War on Terror. Instead I see a bunch of seething leftists eager for Bush to crash and burn, and if it happens to damage America, then that is just gravy. “We must be better” and if we happen to get blown up, then at least we will be as clean as virgin snow, right? Disgraceful.
jg
Spreading propaganda is age old but in most cases you aren’t lying to the people you’re trying to get on your side. Real reporters telling real good news is different than having soldiers write stories under alises. On that basis even if the story is true you lose credibility. Has this administration screwed every pooch they came into contact with? Did they actually fuck up something so basic as a propoganda campaign?
Davebo
Good post Tim.
It’s called credibility. And the US occupation force seems to determined to shred that last string of crediblity we had with the Iraqi people.
Ironically, they had to assume they wouldn’t get caught. IE, that Iraqis are dumber than a box of rocks.
Stormy70
Shorter John S. : America should lose, rather than fight back.
Fun for everyone.
jg
Why in the name of God would our own national media want us to lose a fucking war? what possible good could come from it that anyone would want it?
Joey
Well, part of this is disgraceful. But it’s not the part that you think is disgraceful, Stormy. Are you serious, or just trying to be ironic? I hope you’re shooting for irony, but it’s coming off as if you’re just insane.
John S.
I’ll speak for myself, thanks.
America should lead by EXAMPLE, rather than preach about what they don’t practice.
Unlike you, I prefer the highest common denominator to the lowest.
Joey
Precisely. Sure, we could win lots of wars by lying to citizens and torturing people. We could also win lots of wars by using wmd’s. But we don’t. Because it’s not right. What’s efficient isn’t always right, especially in wars.
Pb
Apparently Stormy is also at war with the Iraqi people.
Joey, meet Stormy–she’s serious, unintentionally ironic, and generally insane on these topics.
T. Miller
If we are forced to close down our news management operation in Iraq, then the terrorists have won.
Scott Free
Before all you lefties blow a gasket over U.S. “dishonesty”, read the article. It said that the stories and letters printed in the Iraqi newspapers were not fabrications or lies, they just portrayed the US in a favorable light.
Propaganda it is, but propoganda is not the same as misinformation. Look it up. The U.S. is faced with a torrent of enemy propaganda in the Middle East. There is nothing wrong with fighting back – as long as we do not stoop to the tactics of the enemy by printing outright lies.
Stormy70
The press would love for Bush to fail. They don’t report events in Iraq objectively, if they bother to even leave their hotel. They do not report anything that would make Iraq look like it is making progress, since it would make Bush look good. There is a reason the soldiers hate the media, and there is a reason upon their return to the states, they are asked “What is really going on in Iraq?” People have to ask the soldiers since the media does such a piss poor job of getting the entire war story out. When is the last time a reporter asked how many enemy fighters were killed in an operation? I haven’t heard it from the idiotic press corp in Washington.
I read Michael Yon and Bill Roggio because they freelance and actually go with the soldiers to see what they are doing. I think those are the reporters who deserve my respect, not the press boozing it up in Washington with the same people they are covering.
John S.
Stormy-
To paraphrase Gandalf from the Lord of the Rings:
You cannot use the weapon of your enemy to defeat him.
Steve S
Let’s be clear about this, too.
The problem is not that this was reported.
The problem is that it happened.
I’ve given up completely on this administration. They do not believe in American Values, and have no regard for the sanctity of our great nation. It is so fucking depressing to wake up every day and see the President and his cronies spitting on everything you hold dear and important.
Pb
Damn those honest and ethical lefties. Don’t they know that we can only win through corruption and lies, and thus only corrupt liars are patriots?
The Disenfranchised Voter
I’ve heard this arugment quite a bit actually and let me be clear. IT IS COMPLETE BULLSHIT. Now let me explain why.
I agree that using propaganda to confuse your enemy is a useful tool is war, but that is not the case here. You are using a false analogy. We are not planting stories in the Iraqi media to misled our enemies, we are planting stories in order to misled the people who we need to win the hearts and minds of. You don’t win people over by misleding or lying to them.
The situations are completely different. We are suppose to be setting an example of democracy to the Iraqis. We are instead setting an example of unethical behavior.
I am not at all surprised by this since the Bush Administration has already been “convicted” by the GAO of spreading covert propaganda in the US. So clearly they have no problem doing this to other countries.
Once again, the WWII propaganda comparisons are not correct. The situations are completely different.
The Disenfranchised Voter
*argument
*is war=in war
Steve S
No. The Press and the American people would love it if Bush were to succeed.
The problem is that Bush himself wants to fail. I mean how else to you fucking explain this bloody incompetency!?
I’m tired of your fucking whining and excuses. Get a fucking grip on reality.
The Disenfranchised Voter
Uhh yea, his name is Rush Limbaugh. The only political commentary the soldiers have recieved for the past 10 years has been Rush Limbaugh. There is no “left” perspective on Armed Forces Radio.
When all they hear is the propaganda that Rush spews, no wonder a majority of them think the media is wrong.
Pb
Scott Free,
I’ll give you an example of an outright lie:
Propaganda involves lying to your audience that you are a credible or objective news source, a journalist, a reporter.
Steve S
Agreed. You plant stories to make the Nazis think you’re landing in Spain on July the 14th, when you are really landing at Normany on the June the 6th.
The kinds of stories these guys are planting are fucking Soviet Pravda crap. Everything is fine, there is no reason to fear bread line shortages… when the people are all standing in the streets wondering where the bread is.
Tim F.
I think that the time has come to question the patriotism of people who swear loaylty to values that are precisely the opposite of America’s. We don’t stand for torture, or dishonest propaganda. We fight it. It would be nice if we didn’t have to fight it at home.
Stormy70
John S. – you seem to want to speak for me, so I returned the favor.
Propaganda is not a weapon of the enemy, but a tactic all sides employ in warfare.
It is not a Sunday sermon, and America will always be better than dictators and terrorists who blow up innocent people.
Steve S
There is now.
His name is Ed Schultz. I met him up in Bismark last year, and he seems like a fairly decent fellow.
jg
Opinion, not fact. Still deosn’t explain why they want us to lose a war.
Who’s fault is it that no one can leave the Green Zone?
Its not their job to make Bush look good. They didn’t try to make Clinton or Gore look good either, they repeated plenty of lies about both of them. Because it sold.
Because Rush and Hannity and O’reilly constantly tell them and you that the media is against them and Armed Forces Radio doesn’t put many competing personalities on the air.
jg
They signed him up but has he got on the air yet?
stickler
Yeah, it’s okay if the Vice President says that “Saddam has reconstituted his nuclear weapons program,” but nobody had better print it.
Again, for the mentally-challenged: we’re fighting a political “war” in a country where we are the occupiers. We are fighting against an insurgency. The paramount goal (I’m typing slowly here so you can keep up) is to win over the population so they don’t support the insurgents.
Can we do this if our government is also lying to them? And lying so incompetently that it gets discovered? Did the US government have a surplus of credibility in the Middle East we could afford to piss away?
jpok
I don’t see what the big deal is. The propaganda stories are factually accurate, but one-sided. Sounds like they could run in any paper in America.
Ancient Purple
I question your sanity and your sobriety, so I guess we are even.
Scott Free
“The only political commentary the soldiers have recieved for the past 10 years has been Rush Limbaugh. There is no “left” perspective on Armed Forces Radio.”
Uhh, except for NP f’king R!
nyrev
No, Joey. DougJ’s the comedian who pretends to be an idiot. Stormy’s just an idiot pretending to be sober.
And if part of the first stage of victory in Iraq is “building democratic institutions,” then bribing the Iraqi press to publish propaganda pieces is a funny way to go about achieving that victory.
Stormy70
Looks like I am not the one whining and losing my grip.
Or maybe you should question why you would believe a bunch of anti-American Italians on the issue of WP being used by our US Military on civilians without hesitation? I remember most of you were ready to go to the mat claiming we were using chemical weapons, when the opposite was true. Should people start questioning the patriotism of people who are ready to believe the worst about America everytime because a Republican happens to be President? Do you want to go down the “Questioning Patriotism” road?
Pb
Ah, Stormy.
Except when we blow up innocent people. I’ll tell you what–instead of assuring yourself that we’ll “always be better” even if we blow up or torture the occasional person, imprison the occasional American without trial, why don’t you see that we are better, much better, and actually hold America to the high standard that it professes. If you want to have that standard, you have to keep and earn that standard.
Stormy70
Admit it, you are just jealous of my liquor cabinet’s abundance of the good stuff. Maybe some of you could get your drink on and you wouldn’t be so full of OUTRAGE all the time.
Scott Free
Look, does anyone have a problem with the U.S. military using propaganda – as long as the propaganda is truthful?
Let’s define our terms – many of you are immediatly assuming that the letters and articles used in Iraq were dishonest or misinformation. From what I read in the LA times article, that is not the case.
I think we can all agree that the U.S. should not be spreading deliberate lies, but is there anything wrong with spreading positive and truthful propaganda?
I say no, it is a legitimate and neccesary part of modern warfare and non-violent to boot.
nyrev
So, Stormy, you’re saying that patriotic Americans do support torture and propaganda? Thank you for clarifying that.
Stormy70
How…sanctimonious. Dobson has nothing on you.
jaime
See Here:
http://ch.indymedia.org/images/2004/05/22916.jpg
and here:
http://www.borkowski.co.uk/archives/mark/1212196.jpg
and here:
http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2005/01/18/courtmartialhandout372.jpg
and here:
http://www.bush2004.com/images/abu_ghraib.jpg
Stormy70
If that is how you read that, then you are cut off. You don’t need anything else to cloud your mind, especially a drink of the good stuff.
Tim F.
You quite obviously do. If you stand for things that America stands against, then what else is there to say about it.
Stormy70
Ok, it has been fun, but it is time for the DVR to hum. Night all.
nyrev
I read it the way you wrote it, you crazy party gurl. It’s not my fault if your boozin’ impedes your ability to make sense.
tzs
Stormy, if America were to do the exact same thing as dictators and terrorists who blow up innocent people, would it still be automatically better?
Next question: how far down in the mire do we have to slip before the automatic knee-jerk reaction of “US always better” fails to hold? I’d hate to have it be “as long as we’re better than Saddam”. That’s an awfully low bar to have.
jg
Believed without hesitation? Is that what happened? I could’ve sworn it was a bunch of people wanting to know if this was true and others telling them that just asking is hurting troops.
Any chance Bush’s honestly issues have lead people to not automatically be convinced at a fabrication when we hear about this stuff, true or not?
In 2000 if I was registered Bush would’ve got my vote. I was super pro-war back in early 03. Now I find these reports to be somewhat credible at first. I hate america?
jpok
Scott Free,
That is my attitude as well. I didn’t see that thing with Max Boot, but could it be that he means we need propaganda to counter Al-Jazeera’s propaganda, not that if Al-Jazeera does it, it’s kosher? That would make a lot more sense than John S. is implying.
Stormy70
America? Or just the left side of the aisle. You guys are as preachy about America as the religious right. I don’t question people’s patriotism because I disagree with them, but you do. You said as much above. I do question the patriotism of the bulk of the mainstream media, especially in Washington.
Now I am leaving for real, quit trying to coax me out with your bait.
Pb
Stormy,
I guess when you take the low road, everything else looks like the high road.
The Disenfranchised Voter
This is not the same thing as WWII propaganda. Read my post above John.
Scott Free
“I agree that using propaganda to confuse your enemy is a useful tool is war, but that is not the case here. You are using a false analogy. We are not planting stories in the Iraqi media to misled our enemies, we are planting stories in order to misled the people who we need to win the hearts and minds of. You don’t win people over by misleding or lying to them.
The situations are completely different. We are suppose to be setting an example of democracy to the Iraqis. We are instead setting an example of unethical behavior.”
Dis,
For starters you are begging the question by taking it as given that the U.S. propaganda we are talking about is “misleading or lying” and hence “unethical” – the LA times article says that it was not.
In the second place, the Allies used exactly this kind of propaganda on Axis and Axis occupied civilians by radio broadcast and leaflet drop in order to “win hearts and minds”.
You are obviously making the common mistake of confusing “misinformation” with “propaganda”. They do not mean the same thing!
Letting slip to the Axis that Patton was preparing an army to attack Calais was _misinformation_.
Telling the citizens of Germany that they would be well treated if they surrendered peacefully was _propaganda_.
Propaganda can be misinformation, but not all propaganda _is_ misinformation.
John S.
How true. I am amazed that someone like Stormy who is affiliated with the alleged “party of morals and values” seems to have a much lower moral standard than the majority of heathenous “lefties”.
ppGaz
Yeah, well, nice try and nice rant, John, but you got this one absolutely back-asswards. Just watched Buchanan and Reagan debate it on Matthews’ show …. Buchanan was pimping the viewpoint you expressed above.
Let me put it this way: The game was not as close as the final score. Buchanan lost the debate in rather ugly fashion.
It boils down to this: The Iraqi people are not stupid and should be treated as if stupid. They will see that the big democracy from overseas treats their information stream basically the same way Saddam Hussein did … just feed ’em official bullshit.
The idea and the strategy are losers. Big time. It’s a stupid, stupid idea.
Don’t think so? Okay, why don’t we employ the same strategy here in our country? Have the government embed stories in the MSM stream and put them out there as if they were the product of real journalism. Is that okay?
No? So, the people in Iraq don’t deserve the same honest treatement that you think you are entitled to?
It’s a trick question. So try not to make a complete ass of yourself answering it.
Is propaganda okay? Sure. Just label it. End of controversy. If your target audience doesn’t deserve at least that much honesty, then …. why should they trust anything you say?
Matthews and Reagan are dead right, and you are dead, 180 degrees wrong.
ppGaz
I am continually and deeply amazed that somebody as smart as you are would stoop to making a fool of himself like this, just to get a thread churned up. Because, you can’t possibly be serious. Really, not even DougJ’s best persona could sell that line of baloney with a straight face.
John S.
Who said what Boot had to say made sense to begin with? I sure as hell didn’t think so. If I could find a transcript of this morning’s program I’d be happy to illustrate.
jaime
I know…..Why don’t we let the FREE PRESS of the people of the SOVEREIGN IRAQI GOVERNMENT report their own news? Maybe that would go far in winning hearts and minds.
ppGaz
I’ll just suggest here that it really doesn’t matter what big-haired ladies in Dallas think about this story. What matters is what the people of Iraq think about it.
If I’m one of them, I’m insulted, I’m dissed, and I’m pissed. I have no reason to ever listen to your bullshit again. Why would I?
t. jasper parnell
I dislike these kinds of conversation as they confuse all manner of issues and often rely on half-truths and opinion parading as absolute truth and fact. We know not what is presently occurring in Iraq in any detail, what is occurring in Washington in any meaningful detail, nor do we know what is going to happen next with anything like clarity. Those of us who find it reprehensible that the US is engaged in propaganda, howsoever noble the ends, are outraged because we are supposed to be a nation built upon the idea and ideal of truth. I recall that in the recent past the late Chief Justice read the Declaration and halfway through stopped and commented that it was “quite an indictment.” His point, as I took it, was that Jefferson and company relied not on the mushyness of what the future might hold (B. Franklin a Republic if you can keep it) but rather that the mere laying out of the facts of the matter was sufficient to justify pledging one’s life and sacred honor in the pursuit of obtaining liberty from the unjust impositions of unheeding tyrant. One can, I suppose, argue that the colonists misrepresented, spun if you must, reality to meet their needs.This position, I respectfully submit, is bullocks. This nation, this form of government, and out collective future rests not on the ability to “spin” or the possibility that we might now, as Mr. Tim F suggests, call our opponents patriotism into question, rather it rest on our committment to telling the truth even or especially if that truth is objectionable. Failing this we look like a largish bunch of dopes, dolts, and bamboozled fools. When our government acts to distort reality to achieve its goals, howsoever noble notable or desirable those goals might be and whoever it is that sits in the Oval office, this nation, its state and our government have made a mockery of our foundation. You and I can disagree on the correct tax policy, the appropriate stance toward continued involvment in Iraq, but when we seek to justify lies and distortion in the pursuit of a goal, noble or otherwise, we betray what it is that we once were and what it was that all those dead white men hoped to create.
For god’s sake, if we cannot agree that the misrepresentation of reality by the government through organs of the state in pursuit of that government’s goals is not an abomination in the eyes of all right-thinking Americans regardless of party affiliation, surely, George Washington’s complaints about the dangers of faction have come true.
Are we not first and foremost Amercans? Do we not as a nation and a people stand for something? Is it too much to ask that that something be truth telling on the most basic matters?
kb
“I do wonder, were this 1944, if whether or not the American national press would run stories with a headline that stated”
1944 maybe not, but if the US was still doing it in the US zone in 1947 ? And paying German newspapers to use stories?
“Propaganda can be misinformation, but not all propaganda is misinformation”
So if the story is
“the us does not torture people” is that Propaganda or Misinformation?
Anyway the white house has done this at home.
http://www.politicalaffairs.net/article/view/1948/1/123/
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1410627,00.html
The Disenfranchised Voter
It is unethical because spreading propaganda–true or not–is unethical. Spreading propaganda to your enemy is completely fine, but spreading propaganda to a group of people who you are trying to set an example of democracy to is unethical, wrong, and stupid as hell.
We didn’t goto war with Hitler to spread democracy. If it did indeed occur it was a questionable policy then, but in today’s society people at the Pentagon should have realized this story was going to get out.
T. Miller
The Administration has secretly paid American reporters and commentators for favorable treatment, and provided packaged “newscasts” to US media. Why should the Iraqi press not have the same benefits?
John S.
Ok, here is precisely what Boot had to say:
You can find it between 23:49 and 23:56 on this recording of the show.
I don’t what Boot meant to say, but I do know what he said. And what he said is that we need to enage in planting bogus claims within the Arab media because the other side has been so skillful at it.
The Disenfranchised Voter
Exactlyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy. I’d like to see anyone who thinks using the propaganda was the right move say they wouldn’t be insulted and angry if they were and Iraqi right now.
That is what this all comes down to. The people in the Pentagon who push this policy should have had the fucking brains to realize it would get out in the REAL press eventually.
(And the more I think about it, the thing that pisses me off the most is that we are giving 100 million dollars away to some company to do this shit. This war has cost us so much already, we don’t need to be wasting money like this. In fact, the company who is heading this, the Lincoln group, is led by 3 Bush Campaign managers who have no experience in the field. The corruption is in fact a culture in the GOP now)
Paddy O'Shea
I’m a little puzzled. This story you guys are gnawing on here, which is kind of old, pales in comparison to the bomb Time Magazine reporter Michael Ware dropped on Georgie Junior today. Ware claiming on CNN that Shrub lied in his speech yesterday about supposedly heroic role played by Iraqi troops at Tal Afar is a mountain of a story compared to this tawdry nonsense about us peddling fibs to the Iraqis.
http://thinkprogress.org/2005/12/01/embedded-time-reporter
KC
I lean towards John on this one to some extent. If we’re going to be successful over there, it’s important that Iraqis get behind us on this stuff. On the other hand, if the LA Times uncovered it, perhaps it was an operation that was only fooling Americans, not Iraqis. After all, sometimes when I read Baghdad Burning, I get the feeling she knows far more about this war than I do.
ppGaz
One would like to think so. But then one remembers back over the last three years, and ……… naaaahhhh. They really ARE that stupid.
ppGaz
Amazing. Would the strategy work on you? And would it still work on you after you found what what they were up to?
If so, you fully deserve the government you have now.
Really. You must be so proud.
ppGaz
Yeah, saw that. But really, to coin a phrase, that’s old news. Generally speaking, most people really don’t believe the crap coming out of the spin machine any more. So in the end, it’s not that big a deal.
John Cole
HUNH?
You clearly have no idea what propaganda is, or you just wouldn’t make such statements.
Paddy O'Shea
Mr. Gaz: For Shrub to be caught in a lie in the very first speech of his 15th attempt to convince the American public that there really is a reason behind his nasty little war in Iraq is not that big a deal?
Damn. You mean to say he lies all the time and nobody outside of Balloon Juice believes him anymore?
This is very shocking news…
Jack Burton
There’s a little bit of everything in this story – how hard it’s getting to defend this administation, how funny it is to do this to Al Jazeera, etc. We’re never going to agree on any of it, although I must say I find myself agreeing with those that I wouldn’t usually on this one. Having said that…
Let’s just say you’ll know the program has gone too far when a story starts out with “a dashing LTC in the US Army with classic looks, strong frame and a twelve inch penis recently visited Mosul…….”
John S.
Damn, Wikipedia moves fast:
Also, from the same link the above quote is from, what type of propaganda is this: White, Black or Grey?
Scott Free
“Main Entry: pro·pa·gan·da
Pronunciation: “prä-p&-‘gan-d&, “prO-
Function: noun
Etymology: New Latin, from Congregatio de propaganda fide Congregation for propagating the faith, organization established by Pope Gregory XV died 1623
1 capitalized : a congregation of the Roman curia having jurisdiction over missionary territories and related institutions
2 : the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person
3 : ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one’s cause or to damage an opposing cause; also : a public action having such an effect”
Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
“It is unethical because spreading propaganda—true or not—is unethical.”
Dis
So what you are saying is that it is unethical for the U.S., in the face of a massive propaganda and disinformation campaign by the terrorists, to “spread ideas, information, or rumor” for the purpose of helping democracy take root in Iraq? That’s unethical?
Thank God you people are not running the country.
ppGaz
I think that flu is affecting your noggin.
Davebo
I’m a bit confused with Cole’s response, and think his initial plan of no reaction would have been wise.
But what I found hilarious was this.
I don’t recall the US press expressing horror over Al Hawza being shut down. I do recall people questioning whether or not it was a good way to encourage an emerging democracy.
And there is no difference between OVERT and COVERT propoganda. Both are just propaganda.
See John, like torture, propaganda can work at times. But I oppose both because in the end, the truth always comes out. And when it does, the last vestige of credibility for the US in the region is crushed.
It’s called taking the high road. And for a society that plans to be around for another hundred years in a globalized world, it’s rather important.
Not to mention the fact that in a global, internetized world, this act is clearly in violation of US law.
But then what the heck, so is torture right?
ppGaz
Don’t know who you are talking to, not that it matters …
But I never said anything about ethics. I said the idea was stupid …. which it is. Once exposed, which is now, the target audience has no further reason to listen to the bullshit. And would be foolish to do so, really.
These are people who have been manipulated and jerked around by government their entire lives. Who the fuck thought that treating them this way was a good idea?
John Cole
PPGAZ- I teach a course in propaganda, and I think I understand what propaganda is and is not. Stating it is ‘unethical’ to use propaganda indicates to me that they have no clue what propaganda is.
Jack:
That made me shoot Shiraz out my nose.
John S.
You clearly have no idea what propaganda is, or you just wouldn’t make such statements. Seeing as how propaganda boils down to manipulating the opinion of the masses, while the practice may be construed as having merit, the ETHICS of using propaganda are certainly debatable.
It all depends on what your ethics are.
Davebo
prop·a·gan·da ( P ) Pronunciation Key (prp-gnd)
n.
The systematic propagation of a doctrine or cause or of information reflecting the views and interests of those advocating such a doctrine or cause.
Material disseminated by the advocates or opponents of a doctrine or cause: wartime propaganda
Sounds applicable to me John. Any disagreement from you?
John Cole
Another expert who couldn’t find his ass with both hands.
Go google ‘white propaganda.’
When you are done, google ‘black propaganda.’
Then come back admit you were wrong.
Davebo
In Kansas?
Davebo
OK John, here ya go with both hands.
White propaganda is propaganda which truthfully states its origin. It is the most common type of propaganda. It is the opposite of black propaganda,
Does your finger stink yet?
John S.
You left out Gray propaganda, John.
John Cole
John- I thought two examples of different type of propaganda demonstrated that there is more than ‘just propaganda.’
Davebo
Oops, left out part.
White propaganda is propaganda which truthfully states its origin. It is the most common type of propaganda. It is the opposite of black propaganda, which purports to come from the opposite side to that which actually produced it.
So what is our progaganda? White or Black?
John S.
Ding, ding, ding! I think we have a winner.
Davebo
Gotta go fire up the grill and cook some steaks.
God I love 65 degree evenings in December!
Jack Burton
Blow me Davebo. I just put mine on and it’s 29, windy and snowing. But I’ll soldier on anyway.
Doesn’t anyone tell a good old fashion lie anymore? All these colors are confusing the issue.
t. jasper parnell
Mr. Cole:
It is ture that I have not killed your mother, it is also true that I have never killed anyone’s mother. It is a fact, that I have killed several other people who did me no harm. If my handlers assert that I have never killed anyone’s mother but ignore my other murders they are, while telling the truth,engaged in propaganda because they ignore, as someone once said, the rest of the story.
Paddy O'Shea
So maybe what has been done here is legitimate in the propaganda sense. Who can really say? I can’t.
But here’s my question: If we were winning this propaganda war, would anyone here know about it? And if we were winning this war, would half as many people in this country be against it?
You have to ask yourself this: Are these issues that get so many people on this site so impassioned really all that important in themselves, or are they symptoms of something much larger? Perhaps the possibility that our national leadership has led us into a situation where our military will not be able to win? And that a majority of the people in this country now know it?
aop
Holy shit. Are you telling me the US has been using propaganda in warfare? I’m outraged, do you hear me OUTRAGED!!!
Ancient Purple
Okay, let’s take your statement above for granted.
Now, tell me, how truthful is it that things are progressing well in Iraq?
Even Bush is lying about how successful things are going in Iraq.
leefranke
We have always been at war with Eastasia.
Paddy O'Shea
The first indication a propaganda war is being won is everyone believes that what they’re hearing is the truth.
How many people really believe in what our national civilian and military leadership is saying these days about Iraq?
Davebo
Jack Burton
Give me a break. I can’t go cruising with the top down till at least late September. But I can continue through early April!
Laura
Of course, there’s going to be propaganda during war, but paying the Iraq press is so completely assinine. Since the whole WMD excuse turned to crap, we’re supposed to be in Iraq to bring democracy to the Iraqis. A free press is a necessity for democracy. It might be good propaganda to get good news get to the Iraqi people. But if you are paying the press to do it, you are pissing all over one of the main principals of democracy.
John S.
Cole-
I agree that the United States certainly engaged heavily in various forms of propaganda during WWII, but that was sixty years ago. Times have changed – for the better IMHO – because we longer see crap like this.
I don’t think yearning for those days is entirely prudent.
ppGaz
Well, maybe a reading comprehension course is in order for you. Did I talk about what propaganda is, or is not?
I said that this strategy is stupid. I don’t care what the theory is, or what the ethics are. The people in Iraq are going to take one look at this and say, Jesus, those stupid Americans are a bunch of manipulators, just like you know who. What other reaction would any intelligent adult have?
“Hey, Abdullah, take off that explosive fanny pack … I just read in the Arab Pennysaver that Americans are going to have the electricity back on by next week!”
Leave it to the stupid idiots in the Party of Manipulators to think this is a good idea.
Jesus H Christ, you people really deserve each other.
ppGaz
Don’t know who you are talking to, not that it matters …
But I never said anything about ethics. I said the idea was stupid …. which it is.
////
You know, just in case you missed it the first time.
I don’t give a flying fig about the ethics. IT’S STUPID.
If the government tried to slide propaganda onto you by disguising it as “news” you’d be pissed.
Tell me you wouldn’t … please. I double dog dare you tell me that. Please, please tell me that.
Oh, you would? WELL THEN WHY THE FUCK WOULDN’T AN IRAQI??
ppGaz
Heh. I think the percentage is typical here, probably about 1 in 3.
If Bush said that tomorrow was going to be a sunny day, there’d be a run on umbrellas.
Steve
I see absolutely nothing wrong with disseminating propaganda in support of the mission. I see a zillion things wrong with being caught at it. If you could guarantee we would never be caught, I’d do this kind of thing all day.
The real question is, was it inevitable that this would be exposed eventually. I tend to say yes, meaning it was a very counterproductive idea.
Slide
Forget whether or not its moral or not, whether its right or not, it just plain STUPID. DUMB. MORONIC. to think that you can get away with it. ONE HUNDRED MILLION dollar program of propaganda is going to get blown. It will be revealed. And then we lose even more credibility if that is even possible with this criminal incompetent administration. STUPID. DUMB. MORONIC. But then again I’m repeating myself, just like this STUPID, DUMB, MORONIC administration does time and time again.
And it is nice to see that COLE is still as clueless as ever, something never change. STUPID, DUMB, MORONIC.
Tim F.
Don’t we? “If we don’t wipe with Charmin then the terrorists win.”
ppGaz
Of course you would. Are you a Republican?
They must be passing out KickMe signs in idiotville tonight.
ppGaz
We are damning this practice with faint praise.
Bob In Pacifica
Great book about the American propaganda operations post-WWII, THE SCIENCE OF COERCION.
What bothers me is that there was allegedly 250 million spent. The propaganda isn’t convincing the Iraqis. Despite Rummy’s reference to an Iraqi free press last week, I don’t anyone had their mind changed back here. In short, it sounds like another bit of Republican graft passed along to friends. I bet some corporate motherfucker with a no-bid contract is overcharging for waterboards.
Bob In Pacifica
Great book about the American propaganda operations post-WWII, THE SCIENCE OF COERCION.
What bothers me is that there was allegedly 250 million spent. The propaganda isn’t convincing the Iraqis. Despite Rummy’s reference to an Iraqi free press last week, I don’t anyone had their mind changed back here. In short, it sounds like another bit of Republican graft passed along to friends. I bet some corporate motherfucker with a no-bid contract is overcharging for waterboards.
John S.
That’s a LOT different than having a poster with a crudely drawn caricature of an Arab and a caption that says “Kill every last towelhead until they are dead.”
Sort of like this.
ppGaz
Well, I have better things to do that sit around here and argue with a guy who teaches propaganda for a living, and a bunch of people who support a party that practices the most grotesque forms of mass manipulation — you know, unless you think that “sanctity of marriage” is a really important thing for your government to be worried about — over whether paid phony news stories are a good idea or not.
Knock yourselves out, kids. Really, I plan to quote you back to yourselves forever afer tonight. “Hey, deception is fine … as long as I don’t get caught” is as good a slogan for your side as I’ve seen yet. Really, do you have a shirt you can send me? Or a yard sign?
Sojourner
Stormy doesn’t mind being lied to so why should the Iraqis? Of course, there is one small problem. The Iraqis aren’t drunk all the time and they don’t have a DVR to kill all conscious thought.
Eureka!!! I’ve just figured out how the US can win this war. Booze and DVRs for everyone!
Slide
WMD
aluminium tubes
Niger uranium
Curveball
al-Libbi
unmanned aerial drones
mobile bio labs
Pvt Jessica Lynch’s heroics
death of Pat Tilman
Armstrong Williams
fake TV news reports
meetings in Prague
how many Iraqi troops trained
using WP in Iraq
how much the medicad bill would cost
“ridiculous” involvement of Rove and Scooter in CIA leak
wonderful progress in Iraq
reconstituted nuclear program
“we don’t torture”
generals never asked for more troops
“last throes” of the adminstration
“we never imgagined terrorists would fly planes into buildings”
Aug 6th PDB a historical document
is anyone surprised?
Kimmitt
Then why’d we have to pay reporters to write them?
Birkel
I do not think many of the people on this thread can distinguish between propaganda, disinformation, misinformation and lies.
Sad, that. Very sad.
demimondian
You know, ppG, I hate to tell you this, but John’s right. We differentiate between different classes of propaganda depending on how false they are. As a matter of policy, we stick rigidly to white prop, which consists of telling true positive stories, and telling fewer (or no) true negative stories.
If — and it’s a big if for me — the “planted” articles were true, then I think that this was a stupid operation, and probably a grand piece of modern Republican cronyism, but that’s about all I have to say about it. If, however, it went beyond that…
demimondian
Kimmit:
I love writing code and worrying about data security — but Microsoft pays me anyway.
John S.
Unfortunately, this classifies as gray propaganda, which everyone seems to overlook.
BlogReeder
slide, is there any rhyme or reason to that list? Did your cat just walk on your keyboard?
demimondian
Really? Well, terminology could have changed. My understanding of grey propaganda was that it included false statements. White propaganda explicitly sticks to telling the truth, and manipulated the listener by redirecting attention rather than by misstating the news.
ppGaz
I have no idea what you are talking about. I have not assserted that the stories were, or were not true. I have asserted nothing about “ethics”. I have asserted nothing regarding the definition of “propaganda.”
I have asserted exactly one thing: Planting stories is stupid. It is stupid no matter who does it. It is stupid when Scooter Libby does it and Judy Miller falls for it, and it is stupid when the gummint does it in Iraq.
It demonstrates a lack of respect for the information process and for the consumers of the information. Once exposed, that lack of respect is what gets remembered. Once you lose credibility, it is nearly impossible to win it back. Respect and credibility traded … for what? Some lame psy-ops idea of getting “a story” out there?
If we were talking about planing a particular story to mislead some raghead asshole into walking into a trap we set for him, and thereby snagging a terrorist … I’d have no objection, other than to say, how the fuck did we blow our cover. But this? This is the equivalent of the gummint in Washington planting stories in your local newspaper that gasoline prices are down because of the leadership of George Bush.
What would your reaction be to finding that out?
What would an Iraqi’s reaction be to finding out that he’d been had?
Excuse me for not rolling over and swallowing the “propaganda, good” kool aid being poured by these Republican shitheads. I am going to need another opinion.
John S.
Demi-
Here’s what I’m going on:
It’s the evil cousin to white propaganda.
The real clincher is this part:
demimondian
[Emphasis mine]
The key word is misleading. Grey propaganda contains falsehoods. White propaganda is manipulative, but not false. Literally, it’s telling white lies.
You do realize that you experience it every day, don’t you? There are examples of it all around the page you’re looking at right now — we call them “ads”, and, although irritating, we recognize them for what they are.
John S.
Demi-
Yes, white propaganda is all around us. The key is that it comes from an identified source. This is what makes it so different from gray propaganda.
Remember when movie studios were running ads with reviews from fake critics to promote their films? They got into some serious legal trouble over it – for misleading moviegoers.
So the key is presenting misleading information. And when the military writes a story and slaps an Arabic name on it – then pays to have it placed, that in it of itself is misleading.
Which is more egregious? Trying to trick moviegoers into seeing a mediocre film, or trying to trick an entire nation into approving of a foreign occupation force?
demimondian
Yes, like an “unnamed administration official”. (Of course, Scooter’s in deep doodoo over that, so maybe it doesn’t suit my purposes.)
If, in fact, the source was misattributed, then, yes, the publication might cross doctrinal lines. That would be one of the things I want to wait for evidence about.
Bob In Pacifica
So what did the our Iraqi press whores say about White Phosphorus? That it has nothing to do with warming the atmosphere? That Senator Byrd and Cindy Sheehan have something to do with it?
croatoan
If things are going so well in Iraq, why do we have to bribe journalists to print good news?
BlogReeder
ppGaz, I thought you were making sense:
but then you followed it with:
So you use a phrase that makes you sound reasonable but the only examples you give for “no matter who does it” seems to be one-sided. Hmmm. You can’t think of anyone on the left?
You’re just a partisan hack. I can’t wait until Dean says that jumping off a cliff is cool. You’ll be the first to go.
John Redworth
I would have something to say about this but I am still shocked that Morgan Fairchild was an actual panal guest discussing Bush’s speech opposite Pat Buchanan… I guess anything the media does now is fair game…
When is the debate about the 1000th execution going to take place between Jeb Bush and Lil Kim?
jg
The key words to me are ‘in a more insidious manner’. Seems to imply that even white propaganda presents misleading information. Which it does. Your advertising example was perfect since advertising is often deceptive.
rachel
Do the Iraqis know the US government does the same thing in the US? It’s not like they’re being treated any differently than US citizens in this regard.
Perry Como
That’s a very good point. This is just another step in spreading Democracy in the Middle East.
In a Democracy, administration officials (White House sources) will “leak” information to influential press outlets (NY Times). The press will then run the information as fact. When the administration is later asked about its claims (Vice President Cheney), the administration will point to the press reports.
So if you replace White House sources with US military and the NY Times with Iraqi reporters… voila! Democracy!
(Dick Cheney retains his role)
Why do you CommiePinkoLefties hate the freedom (of bribing) the press?
John S.
This sounds like it passes the misleading test:
[Emphasis mine] And it also passes the revelation by an inside source test:
Check out the story, but I don’t think it paints the picture any other way than how I am seeing it.
The Disenfranchised Voter
What I am saying is that it is unethical for US soldiers to sell “news stories” with FALSE names in order to get their message out.
I guess I should have stipulated that covert propaganda–true or false–is unethical. Covert propaganda, by its very nature, is misleading. It misleds the person to believe what they are readin is journalism when it is not.
On Hardball last night, Pat Buchanon said that he thinks we should be supporting Iraqi journalists who are writing good stories about the mission and whatnot. We should offer them protection from the insurgents and terrorists because they would need it if they are writing these types of stories.
And guess what? I Completely Agree with Him.
HOWEVER, there is a big difference between supporting Iraqis who write positive stories about the operation and covertly planting fake news reports.
One is ehtical, the other is not.
Go fuck yourself buddy. I could run this country 10 times better than this current Administration.
The Disenfranchised Voter
*journalism = free press journalism
Had to stipulate that because I don’t want any asshats playing stupid sematical games with me like last time.
The Disenfranchised Voter
semantical*
The Disenfranchised Voter
And hell let me also stipulate that I think it is fine to use covert propaganda on your enemies, but not your friends.
Let me ask this, to anyone who is fine with this policy, what do you think of this:
Now, just like the Iraqi “news reports”, the information in this “news report” was true too. Since they didn’t lie, you should be completely fine with this type of stuff as well.
Paddy O'Shea
Hmm, white propaganda, gray and black, too! All very thought provoking.
So maybe we used gray phosphorus at Fallujah?
Jack Burton
You know, I’ve actually learned more about propoganda here in one day than I’ve known in my entire life. Having said that, it’s obvious the sports coaches use white propoganda all the time to save their jobs. Accent the positive, downplay the negative. I’m sure everyone of us does it to our bosses about team and individual performance. Hell, I do it with my life when i come home at 2 AM.
Also, isn’t ironic that I now know,thanks to you fine folks, that Joe Wilson has been embarked, by definition, on a gray propoganda campaign since he started writing op-eds in the NYT. He proclaimed to be neutral (wasn’t) and told lies about what he was going. Just like the guy who called into a radio show I was listening to on the way home last night and said “hey, I’m a longtime republican but I think Bush is a loser”.
Steve S
LOL!
John’s response is pretty much the partisan bullshit one can expect. If Clinton had done this in Kosovo he’d be claiming how wrong it was. Oh hell, if Clinton had used WP in Kosovo, John would be crying about how he was using chemical weapons on civilians.
Whatever.
The Disenfranchised Voter
Yea because it is impossible that a president with a 34% approval rating has caused members of his own party who think he sucks ass…
And actually Joe Wilson did not lie, he was neutral it is just that the facts had a “liberal bias”. That has been quite the problem for the Bush Administration actually.
People like to point out that the CIA’s assestment came to the opposite conclusion as Wilson’s, but what they forget to mention (or have no clue about) is that the State Department came to the exact same conclusion as Wilson.
The Disenfranchised Voter
*who=to
Jack Burton
What, the illegal war we waged without UN approval on people who posed absolutely no threat whatsoever to the US?
The one where we refused to risk our troops so we cowardly ran a bombing campaign that killed hundreds of innocent civilians?
The one where our troops are still there, missing holidays, eight years after the fact with absolutely no end in sight? The one where, as I’m told by my father who was they last Christman visiting the soldiers, where the second the US leaves the Serbs are coming back and killing everyone in sight?
Quagmire if you ask me.
Jack Burton
Read the Senator Report on Iraq intelligence. It directly contradicts many of Joe Wilson’s statements. You have read it, haven’t you?
Let me continue with the statement by the guy that Bush said is a loser, since you seem to have all the fucking answers. He said that Bush is a loser, he’s sick of the whining troops, we pay them to be in Iraq and that most of them couldn’t get a job at Wal-Mart – but he’s a Republican. Try not to be a dickhead all the time, it’s tiring.
Jack Burton
It’s only funny because while your stat seems to be pretty telling, it’s not. Bush’s approval rating is actually 36%, his all-time low. That would be the same low for Bill Clinton’s presidency, but still higher than his father (32%) Jimmy Carter (28% – boy who saw that coming) and of course Nixon (low 20’s). So, despite all your foaming at the mouth zeal, we have a president who’s ratings match Bill Clinton and top everyone else in the last 25 years except Ronald Reagan. It’s not that I’m defending Bush, I’m not anymore, I’m just pointing out how full of shit you are.
The Disenfranchised Voter
Who the fuck are you even talking to here? If you think any of those claims accurately reflect my position you have no idea what you are talking about.
I read the report actually. Which is why I said the State Department says just the opposite and that they agreed with Wilson. Have you even heard of that report, let alone read it?
That’s funny, you seem to have conviently forgot more than 70% of what the caller said when you first posted. When you first posted, you attempted to make it seem as if someone claims to be a Republican and says Bush is a loser they aren’t really a Republican; they are lying.
Stop trying to be a manipulative, ignorant, jackass all the time–it gets tiring.
The Disenfranchised Voter
From the fucking WSJ, you asshat:
DougJ
Hey, Jack Burton and the other Bushbots:
Why don’t you talk about the *good news* about us planting fake storeis in Iraqi papers? What about the jobs the fake stories are providing? What about the schools that they’re helping to build? That the fake stories are turning the tide in freedom’s favor, to use your Dear Leader’s turn of phrase? That it’s part of the Plan For Victory?
And why aren’t you telling us that Clinton planted fake stories in foreign papers all the time? That only the Michael Moore wing of the Democratic party cares about this? That it’s all Kathleen Blanco’s fault?
Better yet: why not tell us that we have to plant fake stories there so we don’t have to plant fake stories here?
ET
Two things I found that directly hit why I have a problem with this incident…..
Kevin Drum at Washington Monthly has an interesting point.
…..All of these articles are the product of weeks of research, and it’s not just coincidence that all of these reporters have been working on the exact same story. Somebody’s been trying to get the word out about this. Somebody who’s not very happy with this program. But who?
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2005_12/007679.php
And then there are these snips from a NYTimes article (12/2/2005 – by ERIC SCHMITT & DAVID S. CLOUD)
”I am concerned about any actions that may undermine the credibility of the United States as we help the Iraqi people stand up as a democracy,” Mr. Warner said in a statement.
”A free and independent press is critical to the functioning of a democracy, and I am concerned about any actions which may erode the independence of the Iraqi media,” the committee chairman’s statement said…….
…..But if the nascent Iraqi news media are perceived by ordinary Iraqis to be a tool of American interests, that effort will be ruined, some lawmakers said.
”How are people going to get information that’s reliable?” said Senator Richard G. Lugar, an Indiana Republican who heads the Foreign Relations Committee. ”Who can they trust? If you are a devout Shiite or Sunni, and you suspect that the press has been bought, why, then you wouldn’t respect the press.”
Perry Como
Lugar is a RINO traitor, just like Warner. How dare they question the methods of the Best Administration Ever? If the Republicans were in charge things would be different.
Jack Burton
Let’s see here, first, Disenfranchized whatever, the Kosovo comment was directed at Steve, but thanks for taking the time to copy and past it. I understand you think everything written here is about you, but not this time. I’ll try to keep you in mind each time I post from here on out.
Second, I noticed you corrected me about the approval ratings (mine came from Newsweek) I noticed you didn’t mention the other presidents approval ratings. Let’s just say your figure is right, which puts Bush just behind Clinton, but ahead of his dad, carter and nixon. Boy, if his approval ratings equal such a piss-poor president, I’d hate to think of what you said about Clinton, let alone poor Jimmy Carter.
As for the phone call, I’d have typed the whole thing out if I though some knee-jerk douchebag would jump in and try to turn it into some more Bush bashing. Damn, you’re like a bass with a fishing lure you just can’t resist. And finally, although the Senate report agrees with the CIA assessment as well as two British reports, it’s the state department’s that you hang your hat on. That’s it, I guess it’s the “real” truth. Okay, I apologize, I was wrong. You’ve got all the “real” answers. Hell, if we know the state department is always right, why do we even bother with the CIA? Of course when the SECRETARY OF STATE makes our case directly to the UN, well, that kind of made me assume they felt the same way. Next time think “read between the lines”.
Finally, DougJ – first bonus points for coming up with another pathetic bush naming scheme. Wow, bushbots, that’s great, did your dog help you with that one? Second, tell me exactly where I defended the story planting? I’ll wait a few minutes while you go throught he whole thread. Try the find function, it’ll go faster.
John S.
Glad to hear it, Jack. Unfortunately, you’re still not getting it, otherwise you wouldn’t say:
Double check that definition of gray propaganda, son. Unless Wilson wrote under the identity of a conservative diplomat and attempted to mislead the public about who he was and where his information came from, it does’t fit.
Jeff Gannon posing as a real reporter? Gray propaganda.
Distributing video “news” releases that come from the White House? Gray propaganda.
Publishing a movie review from a fake critic? Gray propaganda.
Understand?
Cyrus
Bwa ha hah! You know, after our exchange yesterday about torture, I considered posting again and saying that I might have been too quick to assume the worst of you. I didn’t, mostly just because it looked like I had “won” the argument and I didn’t want to appear to be backing down. Sir, that was unfair of me. No one who could write the above post could be all bad.
Now, my general thoughts on the propaganda itself… Clearly stupid, probably not illegal, and the cronyism/incompetence might even be worse than the propaganda. As for the ethics of it, put it this way: if it were being done with American media, what would the reaction be?
We don’t have to imagine that, obviously, we saw it with Armstrong Williams and other journalists – well, media figures – who the administration paid to support them while pretending to be impartial. Most people were (justifiably) pissed off that the government was doing this. If the truth can’t stand on its own, then the government is supposed to bow to the will of the people, not try to hide or confuse the truth.
A certain amount of self-promotion is inevitable, but dishonestly pretending it’s coming from an unbiased source is over the line. That “what if it was in America” rule of thumb would be a little looser in an actual war but it would still apply, and in a country that we claim is our ally which we’ll leave in a year or two*, there’s no question.
*Reminds me of how cold fusion is “always 20 years away”.
DougJ
So I preempted your defense of story-planting, then JB. Mission accomplished as your boy likes to say.
Jack Burton
By the way, I’m noticing quite an entertaining pattern here. Argue with the liberals = Bush supporter. I hate to burst your bubble, but I’m far from a supported of Bush. I voted for him over Kerry and would do so again, but I don’t really care for him, I just hate John Kerry. As you will often find me attacking people who attack the troops, he did that exact same thing with the Winter Soldier fraud, where nearly every story that was told was later found to be complete bullshit but scarred our military for years to come. For that, he is persona non grata. As for the Bush gang, they look like a bunch of monkeys trying to fuck a football, but we do have soldiers in harms way and we should support them, honor their service and not jump at every chance to perpetuate every lame story that comes along with way accusing them of things like war crimes.
Please stop wearing out your fingers on statements calling me bushie, or the latest gem a bushbot, because I am not.
The Disenfranchised Voter
Are you really this fucking stupid? You said that Joe Wilson lied. Your evidence for that was that the Senate report which came to the opposite conclusion of Wilson. My response was that Wilson didn’t lie and my reasoning behind it was to show you that you can’t just take the Senate Report (which was drfated by REPUBLICANS) and say “Wilson lied” while ignoring the State Department more independent report that claims Wilson was completely spot on.
You are a joke Jack, and deal with your claims is not only easy, it is almost effortless to point out the flaws in your post. I suggest cutting you’re losses and runnnin along.
P.S. You can admit you were wrong to question my statement about Bush being at 34% anytime you’re ready. You know, actually admit you were wrong instead of side-stepping the issue and brining up Clinton (like he fucking matters somehow). The funny thing about that is I’m not a Democrat and I don’t give two shits about Clinton now, just as I don’t give two shits about Bush Sr. I care about the CURRENT Administration.
Jack Burton
John S,
And please believe that I’m serious here (I thought that propoganda was just that without the homeland security color coding thing). If Joe Wilson claims to be neutral, but obviously isn’t, doesn’t that qualify as gray propoganda. I only say this because I know there’s stories out there of him and his wife appearing at democratic fundraisers, his wife game money to the Gore campaign using her CIA front company’s name as her employer – so I think we can deduce he wasn’t neutral to begin with. Wouldn’t that be gray propoganda? I’m new at this diffent shades of lying, so stick with me.
Cyrus, the paying of the journalist thing and all that is beyond belief not because they’re doing it – I imagine it’s been done before – but for not understanding the reaction once it’s discovered. Which it always will be.
Don’t they have a fucking brain in their collective heads. It goes something like this – well folks, because of our policies, many of the American public don’t trust us and that we’re running some kind of covert government. Anyone got any good ideas?
“I think we should pay people to plant stories in the media”. Brilliant, let’s go with it.
I mean, it’s almost like the common sense gene that most men and few women have is completely missing. Doesn’t anyone map out contingency plans to say, if this goes wrong, where does that leave us? I’ve got a pretty good job, but I’m thinking there’s more money out there for me if this is the best these clowns can do. I guess if you can raise money for candidates all the other shit is secondary.
DougJ
I see, Jack, you’re not a Bush supporter, you just believe that we should all rally around our leader to show support for the troops.
The Disenfranchised Voter
That makes you a Bush supporter. Hate to burst YOUR buble.
What is even more laughable is that you seem to be one of the dumbasses that fell for the Swift Boat campaign. Unfortunately, for you, every single independent analysis of Kerry’s service says the Swift Boat guys were a pack of rotten liars.
Jesus christ, get a fucking clue moron.
DougJ
One more thing JB: if you’re going to peddle ficitious Joe Wilson stories, why not do so at Free Republic? You’ll find more buyers there.
Jack Burton
TDV,
Let’s take this down a level, shall we. First, I apologize for calling you a douchebag, although that is one of my favorite insults. I guess I apologize for the 34% thing, although I’ve got open on my other screen the Newsweek version that shows 36% (just saw a headline that it’s on the rise though so touche). As for bring up Clinton, I’m making a very relevant comparison in approval ratings to the guy he took over for. Just saying Bush’s approval rating is 34% sounds really bad until you compare it to the others in the past 25 years. That’s like laughing at a pigmy for being 3 feet tall without knowing he towers over everyone else in his tribe.
Joe Wilson, in any medium, clearly lied about who recommended him for the trip, and he lied about a CIA document have the wrong names and wrong dates because he never saw it and it wasn’t released until 8 months after he was in Niger. I say he lied about what he found there, obviously you disagree. The point is, if he’s going to lie about a CIA documents he didn’t see to make his op-ed, what else is he lying about. Please understand why I am skeptical. I read the whole Senate report and it makes him look full of shit. you call it partisan, but it’s signed off on by democrates. What am I supposed to think.?
ppGaz
I’m sorry, did somebody tell you that you were the official comment critic today?
Go fuck yourself. It’s not my job, or intent, to “sound reasonable” to anyone or at any particular time. I say what I think and if you don’t like it, you can kiss my ass.
Perry Como
In all fairness, “Bushbot” was not coined by DougJ. It originated in the little watched 4th season of the original Transformers cartoon series.
The storyline started when there was a schism within the Autobots. Some Autobots felt that as a group, they were not being proactive enough in taking on the Decepticons. So some of the Autobots formed a splinter group called the Neocons.
The Neocons believed in things like consuming energon at record paces, just like the Autobots. But they were much more militaristic. The Neocons worked for years to develop their ultimate weapon and ran a huge energon trade deficit with Cybertron, but everyone knows deficits don’t matter. Besides, was Cybertron going to come collect on their debt? Haha!
So after years of development the Neocons finally came up with their ultimate weapon: the Bushbot. The Bushbot is an amazing machine that can turn a normally rational individual (or robot) into the ultimate defensive platform. No matter what you throw at the Bushbot, it deflects the attack. The genius of the Bushbot’s design was not in its defensive capabilities, however. The more you attack a Bushbot, the stronger it gets. Once it has built up enough power it unleashes a devastating attack that warps all reality, leaving all of its opponents stumbling with confusion.
Just thought I’d toss that bit of TV trivia out there.
Jack Burton
You know, I take back my apology. Fuck you, I didn’t mention one damn thing about the swift boats you just jumped right into that assumption and then treated it as fact. I’ll tell you what, how about I give you my email and you just post whatever you think I’m going to say and have conversations with yourself.
Doug,
Tell me one Joe Wilson “lie” that I peddled that isn’t right there in the Senate report. Let me guess, I’ve got to decipher the information in a report released by the self proclaimed worlds greatest legislative body. What an idiot.
Jack Burton
DougJ,
Where did I say we should rally around our leader? Fuck you pathetic little piece of shit. Stop trying to insinuate things I haven’t said you rabid little puke.
ppGaz
Color codes for propaganda …. brought to you by the same people who thought that “terror alert levels” should be color-coded.
Oh brother. What’s next, Don Rumsfeld telling us why this nonsense is a good idea?
Blabber all you want. It’s just another case of the WHIG party with its dick in one hand and a list of excuses in the other. These morons couldn’t get out of their own way if their lives depended on it.
If I’m an Iraqi today, I’m thinking “How the hell did those Americans get so rich, when they’re so stupid?”
Well let’s put on the popcorn and wait for the next great propaganda operation from these bone strokers.
Jack Burton
Hmmmm, I used to have transformers and I don’t recall that season. I’ll check it out at media play. Seems like an intense story line for a kids show.
The Disenfranchised Voter
Actually, no, you’re wrong. It was Cheney’s office who sent Wilson on the trip. Cheney may deny it, but the evidence says otherwise.
Heh, too late! No take backs!
Well, was I right or wrong. You’re mentioning the Winter Soldier as if Kerry was wrong in protesting the attrocity that was Vietnam. If you believe he was, and I think it is safe to assume you do, then you probably are stupid enough to be in the Swift boat camp since many of them complained about the Winter Soldier and Kerry’s protesting.
If I’m wrong, tell me otherwise. I really think I just set off a nerve with you when I called the Swift Boat guys a pack of rotten liars.
Jack Burton
ppGaz,
I know you think you’re seeing another opportunity to pile on the goverment, but the white, gray and black has nothing to do with bush. It’s apparently factual definitions of propoganda, as taught to me throughout this thread. Not so much knee-jerk please.
ppGaz
I didn’t say it did. I’m not to analyze propaganda tactics to everyone satisfaction and get a passing grade in John’s course.
I’m out to say that the idiots running this country are having a great year. Personally I wouldn’t let them manage a hot dog stand at this juncture, I think they’d fuck it up.
Jack Burton
TDV, I abolutely can take back my apology and there’s nothing you can do about it. Ha ha
The swift boat vet thing seemed like an example of he said/she said. There’s people on both sides saying different things and it happended many years ago. The guys served his country and you have to support that.
As for the Winter Soldier, I believe they found that many of the alleged stories were told by people who weren’t where they said they were or never came close to combat. Swiftboat is opinion, not being in a combat zone yet claiming you saw combat atrocities is a factual lie. Big difference there. Kerry took part in it, so he’s party to the lie. And it did tremendous harm to the soldiers that were returning from Vietnam, so I hold him very responsible for that stuff. I think it’s warranted too.
Jack Burton
ppGaz,
Maybe, but the advertisements would be for the best fucking hotdog that ever walked this earth. When you consider albinos and old grannies, black, white and gray has everything to do with bush.
Jack Burton
TDV, rereadhing what you wrote. What I meant was his wife recommended him personnally for the trip, which he was not factual about.
The Disenfranchised Voter
Actually it really isn’t. All the evidence backed Kerry up. It wasn’t his word vs theirs. He had evidence to support his case, they didn’t.
Check it out
Because Kerry relayed an soldiers account to the Senate Committee? You do realize that Kerry wasn’t claiming he saw those things happen, he was telling the testimony of other soldiers who claimed to have saw these things.
Do you alos hold him responsible for helping to end a bullshit unjustified war like Vietnam? How about the number of soldiers lives that were spared because of his efforts?
If you’re going to hold him responsible for the bad, you should hold him responsible for the good as well.
Jack Burton
TDV,
If you’re going to testify to a Senate Committee, you better me damn sure what you are saying is true. I find it impossible, and it is, for one soldier from a unit to tell a story of these atrocities and no one finds another soldier from the same unit to back it up. Companies, are reasonably tight, platoons are tight and squads are brothers. I just can’t believe that shit was passed off as truth and nobody checked the sources. Like it or not, he carried the torch for lies so he has to anser for it.
As for the saving lives angle, I never thought of it that way. I’d have to ponder that, although my disdain for him would probably prevent me from ever admitting that he should get credit for that.
Swiftboats – I don’t think it’s as cut and dry as you make it. You can’t believe one side entirely and totally discount the other. I would imagine the real truth is somewhere in the middle, it usually is. He did after all get caught blatantly lying about ever being in Cambodia, which he later changed to “near Cambodia”.
Jack Burton
Let’s call it what it is – every time I hear him saying “jengis” Khan I want to slap him. Isn’t that the game with a tower of blocks?
ppGaz
Nothing did as much harm as the “Peace With Honor” program.
That grotesque manipulation has to rank right up there with “Vietnamization” as being among the top American clusterfucks of our time. The latter worked so well that we are now trying to repeat it in Iraq.
Some of those people who were whining about their “honor” might have done well to stand up to the corrupt government, like Kerry did, and flip ’em the bird.
Jack Burton
Well, seeing how the democrats got us in that little gem just goes to show that there’s always been enough stupidity to go around for both parties. Currently the one I vote for has the market cornered.
DougJ
Bless your soul, Jack. I have a hard time getting people around here to call me an idiot these days.
The Disenfranchised Voter
You’re right. And I believe that is where the “some truth” begins and ends.
Kerry did lie–or possibly was just wrong–about the Cambodia remark. That is all I believe about the Swift Boat vet’s claims however.
Even one of them ended up confessing that what he said about Kerry was not true. I can’t remember his name, but I’m fairly certain this did happen.
Jack Burton
DougJ
Anytime
The Disenfranchised Voter
hahaha, that annoyed you as well?
Seems we got off on the wrong foot Jack. But don’t take it personal I treat everyone that I think is a blind Bush supporter that way.
Though I do think you’re a Bush supporter–just not a blind one, and that does matter a lot.
Jack Burton
I’ve got this sinking feel this won’t be the only time we disagree, but hey, that’s what it’s all about.
At the rate we’re going I’m going to be begging for Ross Perot to come back. or someone like him, only not crazy.
ppGaz
Just what we need …. a little man with an annoying nasal voice and a gigantic ego.
We’d be better off to just raffle off the job every four years. Seriously.
BlogReeder
No, just yours :) I wake up and say “How can I get ppGaz?”
I just like the fact you’re so partisian. Unlike myself.
Jack Burton
Here in Ohio, we have the biggest dipshit of a governor you can imagine. And I’m started to wonder if we did do the raffle thing and nobody was paying attention.
It would explain a lot.
DougJ
I’m already begging for Ross Perot to come back. He put deficit reduction on the front burner, where it belongs. He may be crazy — all right, he *is* crazy — but he did the country an enormous service in that regard.
Steve
ppGaz asked me above if I am a Republican because I said I would use propaganda in Iraq all day if I knew we wouldn’t get caught. I found it funny because I am about the polar opposite.
I just think, if you’re fighting a war (and I oppose this war 100%, by the way!) there is nothing wrong, in a moral sense, with using propaganda to win over the locals. Compared to the other indignities suffered by Iraqis as a result of the war (including, most notably, the indignity called “death”), I really find it hard to get exercised over the indignity of slanted news coverage.
As I said above, I nevertheless think this was an incredibly stupid thing to do, because it’s inevitable that we would be caught at it. That doesn’t really alter my greater point, though.
ppGaz
Well at least you are honest. That’s more than we can say for the current crew of potatoheads.
ppGaz
My suggestion would be that you need a new hobby.
Specifically, Truffle hunting
Enjoy.
skip
“As part of an information offensive in Iraq, the U.S. military is secretly paying Iraqi newspapers to publish stories written by American troops in an effort to burnish the image of the U.S. mission in Iraq.”
And to think I attributed the prominence of Charles Krauthammer to a well-meaning reach-out-to-the-nuts program,
Digital Amish
If I was going to get my panties in a bunch over this bruhauhau it would be over the fact that we’re (taxpayers) paying the Lincoln Group 20 million a year to run a scam that could essentially be run by a half a dozen Information Officers out of the Green Zone. But, really, just another fly on the shit heap that symbolizes the Bush administration.
Jack Burton
Admit, everyone is pissed because we could have gotten the contract for half that and never taken off our jammies.
Pb
Damn that John Kerry for perhaps only being near Cambodia on Christmas day. However, I’ve got to give him some credit for knowing approximately where he was and what he was doing for that year/season–could be worse. And I give him even more credit for not claiming he was “in Cambodia during the winter Holiday season” or something–that’d be unforgivable, even if true. :)
Jack Burton
Vietnam is pretty narrow. Isn’t everyone in the South “near” Cambodia more or less. Just like I was nearly a rock star.
Mac Buckets
I was more upset that he lied about Nixon being President and placing him in Cambodia in 1968. That was the punkass lie, to me, and insulted the intelligence of every intelligent person who was ever in one of his audiences (I’m sure there were one or two).
jg
Any chance it was just a mistake? A conflation of memories? You saying he was never in Cambodia? Ever? It was 20 feet left of his patrol. Fairly often.
Nixon wasn’t president in december 68. He was just president elect and would take office in under a month. My God Kerry is such a lying ass. No way he can be president if he didn’t have every last detail fact checked in his diary.
What would be different right now if Kerry was president? How much worse could things be?
Perry Como
The intelligent people were probably asleep by then.
John Kerry: The best cure for insomnia
jg
No shit. All the swift boat shit didn’t have to happen. The man can talk himself out of any election. He just goes on and on and on. Probably would have made a good president (especially compared to Cheny I mean Bush) but he was a shitty candidate.
Pb
jg,
Sad but true. I assume I’m not the only one who sees the problem here.
Don
You’re probably taller than all the midgets in the Wizard of Oz too, but I wouldn’t go around expecting anyone to be impressed by that statistic.
I find it amazingly disingenuous that people are claiming they don’t see the big deal with writing stories and paying someone else to print them as if they came from a different source. Most of us sneer at newspaper articles that are nothing more than marginally re-edited press releases because we recognize they are not unbiased and exploratory reporting. When we see it happen it lowers our opinion of the reporting institution.
So now we’ve gotten our own press releases printed in Arab media as if it comes from Arab sources. In addition to lowering readers’ opinions of those sources we’ve given them cause to wonder if any future articles they read that are flattering to the US are also planted and paid-for. We haven’t improved our future perception, we’ve weakened it.
We also haven’t advanced the argument that Iraq is headed towards a fully independent status and thereby encouraged the locals to be more hostile to insurgents. The goal should be to get every Iraqi to look at insurgents as people who are lowering their quality of life for purposes contrary to their own. This, however, gives them reason to think the US isn’t really interested in their independence and can’t be trusted to be hands-off. It’s likely not enough to get someone to strap on a dynamite cummerbund but it may be enought to get some people to turn a blind eye to activity rather than reporting it.
I’m all for trying to win the hearts & minds of the Iraqi people. This is the opposite of that.
recklessprocess
Oh no! Does this mean Voice Of America has been wrong all these years?
I want the drooling idiots who think this is bad to explain why the NYT publishing anti-american, anti-Iraq, Anti-Bush, Anti-conservative as ‘news’ every day on the front page in every paper is any different from the psyops of publishing stories wishing the process of bringing democracy to Iraq well?
The NYT, CNN, CBS are so completely pushers of fiction every single day as ‘news’. Yet the military does a ‘Voice of Amerca’ thing where we get papers to publish TRUE stories about the good things happening for Iraqis and you lefties get your panties in a bunch.
Ever hear about ‘Freedom of Speech’! I know you lefties desperately need to supress opinions that disagree with yours because you cannot defend them if you are confronted… But this is absurd.
If it bothers you so damn much why don’t you take up a collection and pay the Iraqi papers publish your anti-american stories to balance things out?
Mac Buckets
Of course, there is no chance, but drink whatever Kool-Aid makes you happy. Do you think Kerry is an idiot, or a politician? It was seared — SEARED! — in his memory, sitting there in Cambodia in Christmas 1968 (listening to the drunk Vietnamese celebrate Christmas? Really?), and thinking how Nixon, that damn dirty Republican bogeyman (BOO!), had put him there and lied to the American People about it, none of which could’ve been true. It was a deliberate partisan lie designed to aggrandize himself as a noble victim of Evil Liar Republican Nixon.
Mac Buckets
Sorry, “forged but true” stories are not to be tolerated, unless they attack Lord George Jesus Bush just before an election (DougJ, any progress on this front?).
John S.
Wow…
Somehow a thread about gray propaganda turned into a rehash of John Kerry vs. Swift Boat Vets.
I guess nobody cares how this is playing out in the rest of the world – especially since it has been conjoined in the foreign media with that bit about Bush wanting to blow up al-Jazeera.
Then you have sheer stupidity like this:
Because until the NYT starts publishing pieces written by Democratic operatives under false identities and inserted as regular news – WITHOUT DISCLOSURE OF THE ACTUAL SOURCE – for the sole purpose of bringing down Bush and the conservatives, there is no comparison whatsoever.
John S.
Jack Burton-
In regards to this:
No, it doesn’t. The whole defining characteristic that separates white from gray propaganda is that the source pretends to be another source. You are confusing what you perceive to be Wilson’s stated political affiliation with how the articles he wrote were sourced.
Whether you agreed with what Wilson had to say or not, you knew that what he had to say came from HIM, and that makes all the difference in the world.
DougJ
Jack, if one of the commenters here says something that isn’t true, does that qualify as gray propaganda?
DougJ
I guess I should fess up. The administration has been paying me to go to the comments sections of blogs and plant fake questions about why we aren’t hearing the good news about Iraq, global warming, government corruption, torture, etc.
Jack Burton
John S,
See, I’m new to all these shades of propaganda and I didn’t understand the definition. By that account, you are correct, he’s just a good old fashioned weasel.
DougJ,
Apparently it would only be gray propaganda if the person lying is pretending to be someone else. Wow, this could get pretty confusing.
Matt D
Indeed. Where was all this outrage when CBS was standing behind a news story, based on a document proven to be false with the defense of “fake but accurate”? At least the stories in the Iraqi press are true. Is the current outrage coming from the same lot who chide the Administration and DoD for “failing to win the hearts and minds of the people”? Is it so terrible to try to get the word out about some of the positive things our troops are doing in Iraq? I agree with John that the Administration and DOD are at fault not for trying to do so, but for the slip-shod manner in which they seem to have done it. You can say that about a lot of things the Administration and the DoD have done during the war.
Re: Kerry–Not everyone who was/is ticked off by his actions upon his return from Vietnam received their cue from Swift Boat group. There are Vietnam vets that I know who hated Kerry long before he ran for president in 2004. They say that person responsible for the “baby killer” taunts with which they were greeted upon their return home from Vietnam was John Kerry–not “guys like John Kerry” but John Kerry himself.
Jack Burton
I don’t see the problem with global warming. It’s in the 20’s right now.
Jack Burton
That’s like protesting global big titties.
Jack Burton
What would we call Mary Mapes? She was lying, but doing so under he own name. I’ve got one, but it’s not quite PG material so we’ll have to come up with something a tad more cordial.
The Disenfranchised Voter
DING DING DING.
We have a winner! What do we have for em Johnny?!
Hey Matt D, care to show the proof that they were fakes? Last I checked, the independent investigation said the documents were “inconclusive”. As in they couldn’t prove they were legitimate but on the same token, they couldn’t prove they were fake.
So next time, know what you’re talking about before you decide to comment here, k? Your ignorant bullshit just clutters up the place.
John S.
And by your account, there are a LOT of good old fashioned weasels in Washington.
Wilson is the lowest man on THAT totem pole, IMHO.
Jack Burton
TDV,
Come on now, you make those accusations and present that stuff as fact, you bear the burden of proof.
That’s like someone presenting a letter from your third grade teacher saying you molested the other boys. What exactly are you supposed to respond to. You don’t have the letter, never had it, but somehow you’re supposed to prove it’s a lie. Not fair.
And you know it was fake. Come on, say it, just for me on Friday. It was fake.
Jack Burton
John S, it’s hard to say where he would shake out, but he did make himself a target when he went on his publicity tour.
John S.
Jack-
I like to look at the bigger picture when it comes to white propaganda. What is the final outcome?
In Wilson’s case, the overall thrust of his effort turned out to be true. The yellowcake thing was complete bullshit and Bush was completely wrong about all the assessments he made in the runup to war.
Now, I’m no ends justify the means type of guy, so if Wilson made false statements and did something wrong, him being right in the end doesn’t justify any errors he may have made.
But, it’s like in My Blue Heaven when Steve Martin is on the stand and the defense attorney tries to discredit him by saying that the sweet deal he cut with the government renders his testimony invalid, to which Martin replies:
jg
Not just a liar but apparently a bad liar. Are you trying to tell me this was all planned? A big lie about him sitting on a boat on christmas day so that he would look good 30 years later when he ran for president? Wouldn’t he at least due enough diligence to check that the dates he’s lying about are accurate? Since its pretty damn unlikely someone would go to the trouble of setting up this elaborate lie without making sure the guy he’s talking about was actually president at the time it seems likely he was just mistaken. So he said ‘seared’. Oooooh. That means truth doesn’t it?
There are so many ways of looking at that without thining he’s a lying traitor or whatever the fuck people are thinking. Maybe he’s wrong about events and dates, maybe he’s boasting a little. So what? He served. Some found ‘reasons’ not too. He didn’t. He served and when his tour was over he served again. Thats all that matters to me. Digging into details of a war verterans service as a means of discrediting him in the eyes of voters is dispicable. You shouldn’t listen to it. You should lob rotten tomatoes at whoever is speaking it. Kerry will gladly give you plenty of valid ‘relevant to the task’ reasons for not liking him. Just ask him.
recklessprocess
We removed 500 TONS of yellowcake from Iraq after we went in. Can you find Tuwaitha in google? And most of that 500 tons had actually come from Niger before the trade embargoes.
And Joe Wilson said that Iraq DID try to buy yellowcake. But he insisted they were not successful. But that was not the question: whether Iraq actually bought any. The question was ‘Did they try’ and he reported that they did. At least that is what the CIA says.
What was the overall thrust of Joe Wilson? He lied to attempt to discredit the administration. Bush said ‘British intelligence says’ and ‘in Africa’ not ‘in Niger.’ Joe says that was a lie but how does he know what British Intelligence has reported?
Naw Joe is a liar pure and simple. I submit that he was used in an illegal covert CIA operation to undermine the president by his wife and others she conspired with in the agency.
As to pretending to be some one you are not… what do you call anonymous leaks? This isn’t pretending to be some one else it is pretending not to be anyone. Can we say that HIDING ones identity in order to leak alleged state secrets is not bad? The alleged part means ‘not proven’. As in, ‘I hear that Clinton was selling favors to the Chinese but I don’t have any evidence to prove it. Still who knows what a full investigation might find?’ Is that propaganda if I say it anonymously in the NY Times? The NY Slimes does this all the time. But not to Clinton, of course.
Jack Burton
What a great movie.
John S.
recklessprocess-
I’d love to play a jolly game of Whack-the-Troll with you, but based on your comments thus far, I don’t think you’re worth my time or effort.
jg
The Niger thing was crap. An Iraqi talked to a Niferian. Thats all. Bush tried to imply it was cassus belli when he put it in his speech. Wilson called him on it by saying it was nothing. Not that it didn’t happen, it was nothing to go to war over.
Plame did set this up t oundermine Bush. This came from Cheney’s office. They had a report they wanted to have checked out. They contacted the CIA. Plame was asked for a recommendation and gave the name of someone who’s been there and knew all the parties involved. He reported back what Cheneys office expected to hear, there was nothing to the story. This was confirmed by other reports. This all happened before the speech yet they went ahead and said it in the speech anyway. And rather than talk about why they still said it knowing it wasn’t cause for war, we have to talk about some wacked out conspiracy that the right wing has invented by stringing together a series of coincidences. Its amazing how something always comes along to move the debate off the right winger and turn it back onto the left winger and there it stays. Pick an issue, see if it happens.
jg
Plame didn’t set this up to undermine Bush.
We need an edit button.
John Redworth
why is anyone surprised that we are using propaganda in Iraq to make things look better?
ppGaz
Sorry. That was 500 boxes of Duncan Hines Yellow Cake Mix.
A simple misunderstanding.
ppGaz
The big news here is that going forward, all threads on this blog will be color coded …. white, grey, or black.
Michael Chertoff is being assigned the job of picking the color for each article.
BlogReeder
I read a joke the other day that illustrates this point.
Is this propaganda by the marketing department? And if so, what color?
Mac Buckets
This had nothing to do with him running for President, as the lie is much older than that (which kinda contradicts the “it was a long time ago” excuse). No, it was so he’d look good to his constituents as he ran for office in the 70s and 80s. That’s when he started telling this lie on the campaign trail, and famously, in the Boston Globe.
Frankly, the stakes for a Democrat telling lies in Massachusetts just aren’t that big — if the Globe weren’t his house organ, they would’ve called him on it before they published it. They are allegedly professional journalists. Someone eventualy called Kerry on the Nixon thing and his press sec’y tried to weasel out of it, but her explanation was more of a lie than the original statement.
He’s not wrong or boasting — he’s lying by re-writing history (his favorite pasttime, after snowboarding), and that’s clear to anyone who’s not a naive sheep. I don’t care if he beat the Vietcong singlehandedly, I think everyone’s agreed that lying about your war record to self-aggrandize is reprehensible.
Yes, I already figured out where you stand. Democrat veterans should be allowed to lie about Republicans at will with no one allowed to question them. That message was loud and clear last year. Some principles you have there — look where they’ve gotten the Democrats.
Jack Burton
“Digging into details of a war verterans service as a means of discrediting him in the eyes of voters is dispicable. You shouldn’t listen to it. You should lob rotten tomatoes at whoever is speaking it.”
There is no way somebody just wrote that. Hello Dan Rather and Mary Mapes, we have someone on the line that would like to talk to you.
Jack Burton
jg,
That’s not exactly the way things happended, and you know it. Wilson’s comment that some Iraq businessmen were in Niger in 99 bolstered the CIA’s beliefs, so don’t try the whitewash. The Brits believed the exact same thing so easy on the history rewrite.
And Plame didn’t recommended “someone”, she recommended her husband.
John S.
Jack-
One question: How many lives were ruined because of the despicable actions of Joseph Wilson?
jg
?
Thats your answer? He didn’t have to get the dates right because all us mass folks are just so dumb?
Occams razor. Did a man with political ambitions make shit up he didn’t have to in order to make himself look good and screw up doing it or is it simply a man who can’t remember exactly every liitle detail of his service? No way a man who’s politically motivated doesn’t know who his president is? Maybe he meant 69. Maybe he meant Johnson (would make more sense than Nixon to me). Maybe he even embellished a little. Who fucking cares? A lot of people were pissed at being there, felt they were serving a lie or whatever. Are only people with crystal clear memories allowed to speak about it?
Any chance you fell for a story that made a mountain out of a molehill?
Jack Burton
Who cares. Where did I ever make that point? I’m calling him a liar, which on some points he clearly is, and on some we’ll agree to disagree. Are we saying that lying to the national public isn’t bad if lives aren’t ruined.
This man was given a sensative mission on behalf of the government of the United States of America. He took the information he found, and I’ll use that term loosly, and used it to attack the President of the United States of America. Forget about Bush and all that, think of the office. How many think it’s okay for people in the employ of the CIA, if only temporarily, to take the information in their jobs and trash the head of government? On top of that, he outright lied about some of the things he said. I have a very large problem with the concept. I know many of you don’t, because you hate Bush, but try to look beyond the hatred and think of the overall concept. If you thought Bush was a go it alone guy before, what the hell do you think he’s going to be now that the CIA and State Department sold his ass out. Keep this up and his little circle really will be running the entire country.
Jack Burton
Okay, I gotta admit, I hate Kerry with a passion but even I think saying he made up the Cambodia thing 30 years ago just for potential political ambition is a bit of a stretch. Besides, that’s giving him an awful lot of credit in the smarts department that I’m not prepared to concede.
ppGaz
Oh cut the crap, you pompous asshole.
He didn’t trash the “head of government.” Bush has done that to himself. All he did was call into question a hastily and sloppily constructed rationale for war …. which is not just the right, but the duty of any citizen who thinks he has reason to do so.
When the “head of government” can stifle dissent and opposition to bellicose policy by relying on the kindness of people like you who toss around the sort of horseshit you are peddling here, then the United States is in big trouble. Big trouble. We need more people “trashing” stupid policies and stupid decisions. We need more citizens calling the government’s bluff on matters of this kind. We need more street action in this country. The people should be sincerely interested in taking the country back from those arrogant shitheads who take office and think they can do any fucking thing they want to do, and jerk the rest of us around. Fuck them. Fuck them very much. Fuck the flaccid press for letting them get away with it. Fuck the sycophants who tell them only what they want to hear. Fuck the craven politicians who such up to them or cower in fear of using their own best judgment. Fuck apologists who go around bandying words like “head of government” in order to elevate a little prick like George Bush to some kind of lofty status that places him above reproach or question.
In short, fuck you.
Mac Buckets
No, he didn’t mean Christmas 1969, because he never claimed to be in Cambodia in 1969. No, he didn’t mean LBJ, because that wouldn’t make sense with the “Nixon claimed there were no soldiers in Cambodia” bits.
Yeah, who cares if politicians lie — as long as they are Democrat politicians, right?
This was clearly a conscious lie to paint Kerry as a victim of a Republican’s policy, a policy Kerry accused that Republican of lying ot the country about when that man wasn’t even President. No, that couldn’t have been a partisan strategy, could it have?
It’s a story that just shows Kerry to be what he always was — a political hack whose only concern was winning the next election, and lying about the opposition to get votes was not an ethical problem for him (as I saw many times in 2004). If you want to jump through hoops to pretend he was too stupid to know his own story or that he had a right to lie becuase he served, go ahead. I don’t like to have my intelligence insulted, but obviously that qualm can be solved by drinking the Donkey Kool-aid.
John S.
I never said you made any such point. I asked you a simple question, but sadly, you are unwilling to provide an answer.
Could it be that all your railing about the heinous ‘lies’ of Joe Wilson are a trifling compared to the lies of those with actual power in this government?
ppGaz
Arguing with Mac Buckets is like barking at a dog. As long as you enjoy barking, it’s great fun. But if you expect anything other than barking in return, you are going to eventually get tired of it.
John S.
The funny thing about Mac is that most of his crap reads like a politcal Mad-Lib. Allow me to illustrate:
Swap a few nouns, and voila!
The Disenfranchised Voter
Fair enough Jack B.
Here ya go…
DougJ
The Bushbot crazies are out in force here! It’s quite a sight to behold and quite a stinging indictment of our educational system.
Jack Burton
ppGaz,
Thank you, I’ve never been called pompous before. I feel like I’ve just attained a higher class in life, and I owe it all to someone who used the word fuck more times than I’ve ever seen used in one paragraph. Grrr, bad man coming here baby.
Get over yourself and your pathetic hatred of Bush. He’s president and you have to live with it for another 3 years. I’d say all that hate is going to burn you up but since you told me “fuck you”, I hope your punk ass explodes.
Enjoy the next three years of seething.
Jack Burton
TDV,
So you’re saying that they presented as fact something that they could never, ever, prove was real. To the entire country, right before a presidential election? Come on, you need to do better than that.
John S,
What answer are you looking for? Are you saying that Joe Wilson can lie to anyone he wants, including the American public as long as nobody got hurt. Who are you to decide who did or didn’t get hurt? Okay, on that line of thinking, Richard Nixon is totally innocent. Nobody got hurt, did they? Sound reasonable? I didn’t think so.
Jack Burton
Well DougJ,
I’d love to compare colleges with you.
DougJ
Jack, if you graduated from a four year college, then things are worse than I thought.
The Disenfranchised Voter
No all I am saying is that you can’t say the documents were proven fakes, as someone in this thread had claimed.
If you want my opinion, I think the documents are probably fake. However, I will not claim that they definitely are fake, or that they are proven fakes.
Until someone can prove they are fakes (or authentic), the jury is still out IMO.
MattD
No he doesn’t. All he needs is to keep repeating himself, mixing in some CAPITAL LETTERS, snarky, third-grade level insults and the occasional swearword, and he’s got himself a winning argument. You’re absolutely right, the documents were real, Dan Rather is still with CBS and Mary Mapes isn’t running crying to anyone who will listen in a futile effort to salvage what little remains of her credibility because everybody agrees with you that because the document wasn’t proven forged, it must therefore be authentic. TDV, I don’t know why every post you put up here must be some sort of cheap, snippy and unfunny attempt to start a personal flame war, but please do us all a favor and stop wasting space in John’s comment section and save it for your own blog. I can respond to personal attacks on your blog as well, that way (i) I don’t have to waste space here either (sorry everyone) and (ii) you may actually feel better to know that someone is actually reading the damn thing.
Jack Burton
Wow, questioning my education, what a novel approach. Simple minded little piss brains try to get their point across by questioning the education of the people they disagree with. And besides, you never quite know what that education may be.
Don’t worry, if it makes you feel, just for a moment, that just one time you’re the smart guy, enjoy the moment by all means. Hats off to you and tell the rest of the guys at NASA I said hello.
Jack Burton
Wait a minute, I like TDV.
We got off on the wrong foot, but I bet he’s a good guy (or gal and I only say that because the title is non-gender specific).
I can take it, and I think he can too. Right?
DougJ
I don’t know what your eduction is, Jack, I just know that you seem dumb to me.
Jack Burton
And thank you for granting my Friday wish and admitting that there’s a possibility, some would call it a probability, that they were fake. You are a worthy opponent grasshopper.
Doug J can lick my balls, however.
Jack Burton
Well golly DJ, I can’t argue with that, now can I. Hell, if the Doug J brain trust says you seem dumb, I better call children’s services and tell them to take my kids because Doug J said I’m a retard and you can’t have them people breeding now can you? Holy shit, I can’t believe I wasn’t neutered at birth, seeing how dumb I am.
Sometimes, before I go to sleep, I just leave the TV on the 700 club and hope that overnight I’ll learn how to live my life through osmosis. I go to sleep without a brain in my head and wake up and bang, I have all the answers.
The Disenfranchised Voter
Matt D: If you aren’t going to actually read my posts then why bother responding to them?
Yea because I said anything remotely like that…
Jack:
It will probably make you even happier to know that I would call it a probability as well. That is what I meant by they are probably fake–as in “more than likely” they are forgeries.
Jack Burton
I will drink one to you my new debate friend. And yes, I said friend, because we both obviously want the same things for this country, we just disagree at times (most so far) on how to get there.
When people stop giving a shit is when the trouble starts.
ppGaz
Yeah, you’re a classic Karl Rove wannabee. Pull shit and then accuse your adversary of the shit.
I’m here every day, you fake butthead. Every day that you sit here and talk about the “head of the government” as if it were some kind of sacrosanct institution that people are not supposed to challenge, I am will be right here to point out that you are out of bounds.
The president is an employee who works for me, and for Joe Wilson, and we are empowered to point out that he is full of crap any time we see fit. In fact, we are required by the responsibility of citizenship to do just that.
Joe Wilson is a bad guy, to you? Tough. He’s a frigging hero. He stood up to that alcoholic, lying little prick and called him on his bullshit. For that, he gets a medal AFAIC.
Bush will be lucky if half of his corrupt staff doesn’t end up in the slammer doing butt-love duty with your fellow Republicans in a Federal prison.
And don’t waste your time trying to make this about you and me. I’m way ahead of that strategy. It’s about the lying cocksucker George Bush. I fully intend to hang him around your neck at every opportunity, like a three-day-dead fish. The guy is just about radioactive at this point. He couldn’t sell a pack of Marlboros to a teenager now, nobody will listen to him. I don’t even think his fucking mother will listen to him now.
He’s your new mascot, Jack. Get to know him.
Jack Burton
Everyday I talk about the head of state? Hmmm, does one post on one day constitute every day? Was it over when the German’s bombed Pearl Harbor?
Well, I hope the president is the only person who works for you, because I can’t imagine anyone else working for a serial killer, which is exactly what you sound like.
Do you work yourself into a frenzy each night a kick your dog that you named George?
DougJ
Jack, I was just pushing your buttons earlier. You’re pretty reasonable as Bush apologists go. Maybe someday you’ll see the light and realize what a terrible president he has been.
Jack Burton
My name is Jack
“tweeet, out of bounds mister.”
My last name is Burton
“tweeet, out of bounds again.”
And I think Joe Wilson is a liar
“tweet, out of bounds again you lying cocksucker. Don’t you know that I alone have the truth. Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh”
Could you please write a reasonably short essay on the truth as you know it so I can be sure not to contradict anything you believe and feel your wrath anymore. I mean, I thought i was entitled to my opinion, but boy was I wrong.
Or is this the start of the UN’s control of the internet?
Jack Burton
DJ, as we may be turning a fresh leaf here, please know that the previous was directed at ppGaz.
Jack Burton
And I know he’s been a terrible president. I’m not fucking blind dammit. I voted for him and I’ve been feeling a little buyer’s remorse so stop fucking with me.
Sorry, been drinking a little.
DougJ
No problem.
ppGaz
I don’t care what you think.
You have a worse liar, a punk little mama’s boy liar, a drunk … in the White House. And this little POS started a war mostly on the basis of bullshit, which his chaperone, Dick Cheney, now refers to as bad intelligence.
And you are going to sit there and tell me that Joe Wilson was somehow not good enough to call this little piece of crap president on his bullshit and his stupid war … because what? Bush is better than Joe Wilson?
I don’t think so, Jack. I don’t think you are going to peddle that horse manure here without my being in your face every time.
Jack Burton
grrrrrrrrrrrrr
In my face, grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
grrrrrrrrrrrr
That is one bad motherfucker, I tell you.
Keyboard be damned, if I could reach through this screen I’d fucking choke George Bush, and if the Secret Service wouldn’t let me, well, I’d fucking choke Jack Burton. Punk mother fuckers, all of you.
Wow, I got goosebumps just thinking about it.
Does somebody being in your face while you’re typing mean it’s harder to get to the keyboard?
Jack Burton
Sorry, all those Starbucks double lattes just rile me the fuck up. Grrrrrrr. I’m gonna find some punk bitch in Seattle and knock him the fuck out.
ppGaz
Pour yorself another tumbler of everclear, Jack, and let me explain this to you:
Being in your face means that the next time you decide to try to puff up your sill-assed argument by draping it in the majesty of the government and the president, who dasn’t be challenged by the likes of (gasp) Joe Wilson, you might want to think twice. Because neither you nor that mentally ill little president of yours is man enough to wipe the shoes of a Joe Wilson or any other citizen who stands up to these corrupt motherfuckers. Wilson is a hero, and you are …. some guy who wraps himself in Cheneyisms and says grrr out of one side of his mouth because he doesn’t really have an argument.
Wilson was right. Hussein had no nuclear threat hidden in his swimming pool filter. The WHIG was a bullshit factory.
Grow a pair, and admit you were wrong, and move on.
DougJ
If that is an attempt at gangster rap, you’ve got some work to do.
ppGaz
And here I thought Jack was your creation, Dougster.
Well, maybe he is. Hell, maybe we all are.
DougJ
I don’t argue with my own creations, ppgaz. That’s cheating in my book.
ppGaz
An honest puppetteer.
Inspirational.
We really need to hear more of the good things about blogspoofing.
Jason
Ok, so shooting people dead is ethical in pursuit of US aims but you people get your panties in a wad if we place an advertorial?
Get some perspective, people.
News flash: The NY Times, and nearly every paper in America print grey propaganda all the time. Half the celebrity or think-tank head editorials you will ever see are ghost-written.
And before the LA Times gets too uppity about the practice, I’ve got two words for them:
Staples Center.
ppGaz
What an odd thread. Nobody gets it.
Ethical? Schmethical.
The problem is, it’s STUPID to bamboozle your population. Unless you want to be Saddam Hussein, that is.
You want to treat Iraq like it’s some kind of big playpen filled with kindergartners and oil wells? Fine, but then stop pretending that you can then turn around and turn that kindergarten into a functioning country with a real government that can martial, equip, train, and command a real defense, a real army, and maintain the trust of the people it is defending. Is it a country full of grown ups ready to make their own decisions and take care of their own security?
Then how about treating them like responsible grownups capable of self-government, and not a bunch of helpless stooges?
Take the ethics argument and shove it. It doesn’t feed the bulldog here. Neither does the propaganda color code.
John S.
Oh well gee, I guess that makes it OK then.
ppGaz
Jeebus, even Tierney has enough sense to openly make fun of this idiotic practice.
John S.
Any answer would have done. You failed to provide any.
What a load of shit. I’ll assume this is the booze talking. What I AM saying is that you have to put things into perspective. While you’re hand-wringing over someone as insignificant as Wilson, I’m worried about the dopey fuck that is in the White House.
Bruce Moomaw
Er, John. “Swaying Iraqi public opinion away from chaos in favor of democracy” is not quite synonymous with “Trying to sway Iraqi public opinion toward every goddamn thing the US does”.
Moreover, there’s another very important aspect to this story, which has already come out from a number of sources — and which may explain why (according to Knight-Ridder, the LA Times, and Mark Kleiman) many “senior US military officials” are appalled by this affair. Namely, that it wasn’t just aimed at misleading Iraqis; it was also aimed at misleading Americans:
“Under military rules, information operations are restricted to influencing the attitudes and behavior of foreign governments and people. One form of information operations – psychological warfare – can use doctored or false information to deceive or damage the enemy or to bolster support for American efforts.
“Many military officials, however, said they were concerned that the payments to Iraqi journalists and other covert information operations in Iraq had become so extensive that they were corroding the effort to build democracy and undermining U.S. credibility in Iraq. They also worry that information in the Iraqi press that’s been planted or paid for by the U.S. military could ‘blow back’ to the American public…
“Moreover, the defense and military officials said, the U.S. public is at risk of being influenced by the information operations because what’s planted in the Iraqi media can be picked up by international news organizations and Internet bloggers…
“In addition to the Army’s secret payments to Iraqi newspaper, radio and television journalists for positive stories, U.S. psychological-warfare officers have been involved in writing news releases and drafting media strategies for top commanders, two defense officials said.
“On at least one occasion, psychological warfare specialists have taken a group of international journalists on a tour of Iraq’s border with Syria, a route used by Islamic terrorists and arms smugglers, one of the officials said.
“Usually, these duties are the responsibility of military public-affairs officers.
“In Iraq, public affairs staff at the American-run multinational headquarters in Baghdad have been combined with information operations experts in an organization known as the Information Operations Task Force.
“The unit’s public affairs officers are subservient to the information operations experts, military and defense officials said.
“The result is a ‘fuzzing up’ of what’s supposed to be a strict division between public affairs, which provides factual information about U.S. military operations, and information operations, which can use propaganda and doctored or false information to influence enemy actions, perceptions and behavior.
“Information operations are intended to ‘influence foreign adversary audiences using psychological operations capabilities,’ according to a Sept. 27, 2004, memo sent to top American commanders by the former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, retired Air Force Gen. Richard B. Myers.
“Myers warned that putting public affairs and information operations in the same office had ‘the potential to compromise the commander’s credibility with the media and the public.’ ”
And: “Military spokesmen in Washington and Baghdad said Wednesday that they had no information on the contract. In an interview from Baghdad on Nov. 18, Lt. Col. Steven A. Boylan, a military spokesman, said the Pentagon’s contract with the Lincoln Group was an attempt to ‘try to get stories out to publications that normally don’t have access to those kind of stories.’ The military’s top commanders, including Gen. Peter Pace, the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, did not know about the Lincoln Group contract until Wednesday, when it was first described by The Los Angeles Times, said a senior military official who was not authorized to speak publicly.
“Pentagon officials said General Pace and other top officials were disturbed by the reported details of the propaganda campaign and demanded explanations from senior officers in Iraq, the official said.”
(This, by the way, is the same General Pace who a few days ago got into a publicly televised fight with Rumsfeld over the acceptability of the Iraqi government setting up an extensive network of pro-Shiite death squads. Look for Gen. Pace to be taking an early retirement soon.)
ppGaz
Oh gee. Who knew?
DougJ, John, anyone? Why aren’t we hearing more about the good things that come from misleading Americans?
Bruce Moomaw
“Jeebus, even Tierney has enough sense to openly make fun of this idiotic practice.”
So does Ed Morrissey. The End Is Near!
The Comish (sic)
Bruce Moomaw:
“Namely, that it wasn’t just aimed at misleading Iraqis; it was also aimed at misleading Americans:”
Note the added word here: “misleading.” I’ve seen no evidence that the published articles were misleading in any way, shape, or form. They reported the facts as they happened. The only way that these articles were “misleading” is that they painted the soldiers and war in a positive light. And that’s only misleading if you’ve got a pre-defined narrative in your head, and you need to block out inconsistent facts.
I’m with John here. This “revelation” will hurt. But the only people that will be shocked by it are those that are so ridiculously naive that they don’t realize that militaries and governments engage in public relations all the time. And the only people that will find the stories “misleading” are those are predisposed to only believe the worst of our troops, and that oppose the release of any positive news from Iraq because good news may actually help us succeed.
The Comish (sic)
I should be clearer in what I was trying to say above. The reason this “revelation” will hurt is because the opponents of the US and the war will twist this story into something that it’s not: namely, an admission that the US “mislead” Iraqis and Americans. They haven’t. The only people being “misleading” are the ones that categorize good news from Iraq as “propoganda” and “lies,” and bad news as “facts.”
The Comish (sic)
Bamboozling? Is it “bamboozling” in America when the government gives a State of the Union address in which they point out the good things the government has done? Is it “bamboozling” in America when the government holds a press conference to point out that the military just built and opened a new school in Iraq? Are we incapable of a fuctioning democracy because our newspapers allow columns by folks like Paul Krugman and Rush Limbaugh, who clearly have a political agenda?
Do you really think the Iraqi people are incapable of the type of higher cognitive function that allows them to process the good news that they receive, as well as the bad? It’s not the government that thinks too little of the Iraqi people. If you think they’re incapable of hearing a little good news and still arriving at a rational conclusion, then you don’t give them enough credit.
Bruce Moomaw
Right. That explains why the Knight-Ridder article said that the brass were “disturbed by the reported details of the propaganda campaign and demanded explanations from senior officers in Iraq.” It also explains the following passages from the LA Times article:
“Though the articles are basically factual, they present only one side of events and omit information that might reflect poorly on the U.S. or Iraqi governments, officials said…
“The military’s information operations campaign has sparked a backlash among some senior military officers in Iraq and at the Pentagon who argue that attempts to subvert the news media could destroy the U.S. military’s credibility in other nations and with the American public.
” ‘Here we are trying to create the principles of democracy in Iraq. Every speech we give in that country is about democracy. And we’re breaking all the first principles of democracy when we’re doing it,’ said a senior Pentagon official who opposes the practice of planting stories in the Iraqi media.”
And of course the Administration in general, and Rummy in particular, would never dream of providing similarly biased accounts to the American people themselves through this setup. After all, they have such a good reputation in that respect.
In this connection, note also a story from “GovExec Magazine” dug up by Josh Marshall on the precise nature of the Lincoln Group, the outfit that was running this operation behinds the backs of the Pentagon brass on Rummy’s orders:
“It’s tough to follow the history of Lincoln Group, a contractor that won a $100 million contract with the Special Operations Command to assist with psychological operations. The common denominator to the firm’s history is Christian Bailey, listed on its Web site as executive vice president, capital markets. After graduating from Oxford University in England in the 1990s, Bailey moved to the San Francisco area around 1998, and in 1999, founded Express Action, an e-commerce company he apparently later sold. In the Nov. 15, 2002, issue of HedgeWorld Daily News, Bailey was identified as the founder and chairman of a New York-based hedge fund called Lincoln Asset Management. On March 1, 2003, the Alternative Investment News reported that Lincoln Asset Management had an initial $100 million in commitments to underwrite a leveraged buyout fund to acquire defense and intelligence companies.
“In 2003, the Lincoln Alliance Corp. (a subsidiary of Lincoln Asset Management) made its debut, presenting itself primarily as a purveyor of what it called ‘tailored intelligence services’ for ‘government clients faced with critical intelligence challenges,’ and as an Iraq business development catalyst. Its Web site listed no officers, principals or partners, but described operations as focused on an ambitious mix of political campaign intelligence and commercial real estate. With one office in Baghdad and more projected, Lincoln would act as a clearinghouse for U.S. and foreign companies doing business in Iraq, providing ‘the information, research and contacts necessary to develop and grow businesses’ in the post-Saddam era…
“While the group’s current Web site does list noteworthy examples of successful endeavors apparently part of its MNC-I work, some find it curious that a firm set up by two thirty-something guys has come so far so fast. Also giving pause has been the company’s apparent tendency to solicit staff by way of internships. And it is curious that records of Bailey’s Republican affiliations have disappeared from certain Web sites since the JPSE contract was announced.
“Bailey was a founder and active participant in Lead21, a fund-raising and networking operation for affluent young Republicans, some of whom have gone on to serve in the Bush administration. Click on the links to Lead21’s site today and no mention of Bailey is to be found. But on a subscriber business and social networking site, there’s an archived e-mail of Bailey discussing setting up a New York branch of Lead21, and his ‘personal network,’ which lists a half-dozen members of the organization’s current board, including the chairman of the California Republican Party and the senior policy adviser to the Justice Department’s chief information officer. ‘These are going to be the big supporters, the big donors to the Republican Party in five years’ time,’ Bailey told The New York Times in an Aug. 31, 2004, video interview during a Lead21 party at the Republican convention in New York.
“Neither JPSE nor Lincoln Group responded to verbal or written requests for interviews, but the Project on Government Oversight has reservations. ‘Any time we see leaders who cultivate political influence for a particular party suddenly receive major government contracts, it sends up red flags,’ says POGO spokeswoman Beth Daley.”
In this administration? Surely not.
John S.
Sure, publishing articles under a false identity and without disclosing thesource isn’t misleading in ANY way.
Bullshit. The only people that object to these stories are the ones that don’t like being lied to and manipulated. You apparently are not such a person.
More bullshit. If there were actual good news in Iraq, it wouldn’t have to be planted and paidfor by the United States. You really think Iraqis wouldn’t be thrilled to read about something that was actually going right in their country?
Anyway, thinks for a glimpse into the mind of a person who has clear disdain for the cognitive ability of human beings. I suppose your perspective isn’t all that surprising given your own cognitive reasoning skills.
John S.
Speaking of using the press to manipulate the people…
Officials: CIA missile strike kills al-Qaida No. 3
So what is that, the 60th number two or three official we’ve killed so far? How convenient that it happens to coincide with Bush’s push to reassure the public about the war effort.
I sincerely wish I could believe this was true, but unfortunately, this administration has cried
wolfsuccess one too many times. That’s when happens when you use propaganda to the extent the Bush administration has: You get one hell of a credibility gap (unless you’re part of the 35% loyal Bush base, in which case you’ll believe anything).Jack Burton
John S,
think about this for a minute. If #3 gets killed, doesn’t somehave to step into their place, and don’t they get all the hoopla that goes with being #3? Anyway, I’ve read about this turd for the past few years and if he is dead, good for us. He’s the one with Michael Jackson face. Of course the news of coming from the Pakistani government, so if anyone is pulling propaganda strings, it’s them, not us, for the moment. If he is indeed dead, you do think that’s a good thing, don’t you?
ppGaz,
I know that in your zeal you never ever once thought that maybe you alone don’t have all the answers. I mean, the thought that you so thoroughly believe that only your opinion, and that’s exactly what it is, is the only thing right and everyone else is a “lying cocksucker” as you put it, is quite beyond belief. Where on earth did you come up with the superiority complex and didn’t people along the way tell you that other opinions just may have some basis in fact? I imagine ppGaz’s world is quite an insulated little unit, somewhat similar to today’s university setting. Did you ever once consider that you may not be right about everything? Aren’t I being patriotic by dissenting with you? Don’t you believe in freedom of speech? I can just picture you reading something from someone like me with your face turning red and veins popping out of your neck, but because it doesn’t toe your party line. Get a fucking grip bad ass and realize that we’re allowed to disagree with you without being called lying cocksuckers, fuck you, etc. Call me all the names you want, it doesn’t both me, but when you do I keep getting this feeling that your such a partisan hack that you’re beyond salvage.
The certainty of your opinions would lead me to believe that in addition to being on the UN Weapons Inspection Team, you have also served in the CIA and the State Department and the Iraq Survey Group. You may have even left the CPA after some time because you weren’t being listened to. I mean, with all these jobs that’s given you cunning insight, who has time for a family?
Hell, I’m honored just to be here. As a matter of fact, when you give Joe Wilson his medal, set yourself up for one to.
ppGaz
Still hung over? Learn to read. The “lying cocksuckers” are all in the White House. I never called you one.
You’re just a damned fool. As near as I can tell, a drunken damned fool, but mainly, a damned fool.
.
Of course you are.
ppGaz
Does anyone actually pay attention around here? How come when I’m in a hurry and hose up a context, I get caught, but everyone else just slides by? Where’s the justice?
BAMBOOZLING IS WHEN THE STORY APPEARS TO BE A NEWS STORY BUT IS ACTUALLY A PLANTED PIECE. See, that’s an act of deliberate deception. That’s why I call it a “bamboozle.” And that’s why it’s a very dumb and counterproductive thing to do to people who are charged with governing themselves, whether it’s Americans, or Iraqis. Because IT WILL BACKFIRE.
A political speech such as a State of the Union address is not even in the same ballpark, context-wise. IDIOT!
And the SOTU is not given by a “government”. It’s given by the president. The president is not the government. He is also not the country. The government is not the country.
Jesus.
Jack Burton
Of course, I’m a fool. I don’t agree with you so what else could I be? At least it wasn’t fuck you this morning.
It’s quite breathtaking to have finally come across someone with all the answers. Miss Cleo meet ppGaz. You two will get along just fine.
ppGaz
Revise and extend remarks: Apparently, even the lying cocksuckers (aka the White House) doesn’t think this is a good idea.
Lying Cocksucers In a Spin
Imagine. Even the lyingest cocksuckers on earth don’t think this is a good idea.
But please, the rest of you, keep defending it.
ppGaz
I know you don’t really remember last night, so I’m taking it easy on you so far today.
Remember what I said? It’s not about you and me, that’s your ego talking. It’s about big things like wars and governments and lying cocksuckers in the White House.
You’re a fool simply because you say foolish things. As I pointed out.
John S.
Use your brain, Jack. The administration doesn’t put out this shit because it is logical, they do it for the sake of propaganda. Of COURSE al-Quaeda operates like a hydra, and every time we cut off a head another springs up, but that isn’t what they are trying to sell to the general public. They put these stories out to make people feel like we are winning the war on terror, despite the fact that every time we bump off #2 there are dozens more waiting in the wings. Read between the lines.
Now it’s my turn to give you a resounding fuck you. Funny, for someone who claims not to be a Bushbot, you sure do act like one sometimes. Why is it that whenever someone questions the motives or course of this war on terror, people like you immediately look to brand them as a terrorist lover?
I’ll make this clear for you: If a top al-Quaeda official has been incapacitated, I think that’s a good thing. If his wife and children were also killed (as the article says) I do not think that is a good thing. Killing women and children with indifference to targets of opportunity rubs me the wrong way, but then again my world seems to be a lot grayer than yours.
ppGaz
Amazing. You really think you can just slide in a completely inapt comparison to 1944, and get away with it?
There is not even a remote connection between the two moments in history. Not even a remote connection between the context of Europe and the context of Mesopotamia.
But, as we now understand so well here, you do teach propaganda for a living. The rest of us are just amateur manipulators by comparison.
Jason
So you guys aren’t commenting from your usual level of bone-headed ignorance, here’s the actual doctrine concerning Information Operations at the joint level:
http://www.dtic.mil/doctrine/jel/new_pubs/jp3_13.pdf
Relevant passages occur in Annex D to Appendix B (Guidance for PSYOP Operations) and page 29 or so and following.
The guidance is very clear: IO operations should be an integral part of planning at all levels – strategic, operational, and tactical, and that IO operations include a PSYOP component, and PSYOP operations should be coordinated with Public Affairs.
The doctrine also makes it clear on page 29 that news media outlets are an increasingly important part of that battlefield.
The doctrine also makes it clear at several points that the general host nation population is a legitimate target for Information Operations. It was ever thus.
The only thing the doctrine prohibits, with regard to working with foreign media, is using the media to print false information. During time of war, all else is fair game.
Is it counterproductive? Only if some asshat violates OPSEC and leaks information about ongoing covert information operation sources, contacts, and methods. That’s true for any covert operation.
The individual who deliberately violated OPSEC should be arrested and court-martialed. He has not only compromised US aims, but has endangered the lives of all the media staffers involved as well as their families’.
Jack Burton
ppGaz,
Yup, you got it. Fool fool fool. I can’t believe I even have a job. Thanks for taking it easy on me, I’m not real smart and I appreciate the help. I mean, I know of at least two things that Joe Wilson blatantly lied about, that is absolute fact, but he should get a medal, right?
Let’s see, Joe Wilson has been saying for the past two years that he was sent to Niger by the Vice Presidents office. Joe Wilson, one month ago in the Washington Post said, and I quote “I never said the vice president sent me or ordered me sent.” Uh, yes you did Joe, repeatedly.
I’ll just quote this next one directly from the White House propaganda machine, the WaPo
“Wilson has also armed his critics by misstating some aspects of the Niger affair. For example, Wilson told The Washington Post anonymously in June 2003 that he had concluded that the intelligence about the Niger uranium was based on forged documents because “the dates were wrong and the names were wrong.” The Senate intelligence committee, which examined pre-Iraq war intelligence, reported that Wilson “had never seen the CIA reports and had no knowledge of what names and dates were in the reports.” Wilson had to admit he had misspoken”. Hmm, lying to the press. Gray propaganda?
And of course, lying about his wife’s role in recommending him for the job. There’s quite a bit more that, depending on what camp you reside in, would either be classified as outright lies or half-truths or just plain old differences of opinion. The point is, with these facts, what a simpleton like me to conclude? Golly, I’ve got things pretty clearly spelled out to me but I guess I lack the cunning intuition to realize that it was all for the greater good and against those lying cocksuckers in the White House. Either way, if this is your standard for a “fucking medal”, fire away genius.
And just for the record, but since you know everything you already know this little diddy – at no point did I ever defend the news planting story, ever. Direct your know-it-all arrogant wrath at someone else. As a matter of fact, I don’t think you’ll find me defending much of what the White House has done, but you know that already too.
Boy that book with all the answers must be pretty thick. I wonder if it’s actually called “All the Answers”? Something with the really old creaking binding where you go to a section, say in your case HUMILITY, and blow the dust off the pages because it hasn’t been looked at in so long.
Jack Burton
John S,
It was an honest question that didn’t require a fuck you. There’s several people here who have been pretty clear that they would not support it. I just wanted to know what you thought, as there is no point having a discussion about the importance of getting them if you don’t believe in the concept. As for killing his wife and kids, sorry, nobody bears that burden other than himself. You do what you do and put them in danger, your fault. I adore children and am horrified by the thought of anything happening to mine, or anyone’s, but we live in a horrific world with very bad men. Collateral damage, as bad as it is, cannot not the sole determiner, IN MY OPINION ONLY AND I AM ALLOWED TO HAVE MY OPINION, for whether or not we wipe these people out.
Once again, the news is coming from Pakistan’s government, not ours. At least everything I’ve read this morning. So not so fast on tying it to our government, or my government I guess. As for the hydra comparison, that is correct. However, people rise to the top based on talent, even in terrorism. If you keep killing the best talent, people will keep taking their place. But the overall level of skill will diminish over time. Just putting somebody in charge of something doesn’t mean they can do it.
ppGaz
You have a job?
Blah, blah, blah. Was there an actual Iraq nuclear threat? No. End of fucking story.
Was there a WHIG trying to pimp such fears? Yes. End of fucking story.
The government of this country pulled a giant, dishonest boner, and you want to sit here and talk to me about Joe Wilson?
If you want to spend your life pissing on peoples’ legs and telling them it’s raining, that’s your choice. But aim your yellow stream away from me, because I won’t put up with it.
ppGaz
Are you still drunk and awake from last night?
I’m pretty sure my “news planting story” comments have been aimed pretty generally, or at John, or a few numbskulls who are wearing out their keyboard trying to defend it in here …. not you. So if you haven’t defended that stupid practice, then my comments were not aimed at you, and if they appear inappropriately aimed at you, then for the record, they weren’t aimed at you, and if they were, I retract them.
Back to you.
ppGaz
I tend to focus on questions more than answers.
Here’s one: Why in the world would anyone think that trying to trash a respected diplomat, Joe Wilson, who earned the praise and respect of one of our more-or-less respectable presidents recently, namely 41, Bush’s dad …. who is now retired from government service … would be sufficient to cover up a grotesque stack of lies, stupidities and manipulations that were aimed at deliberately pushing this country into a poorly-planned and even more poorly-executed war with a country that was basically no threat to anybody except its own citizens?
Chew on that, and keep the answer to yourself, because if your answer to that is like the rest of the crap you post, I really ain’t that interested.
ppGaz
Have you ever read a piece of military mumbo-jumbo that you didn’t love, man?
I don’t care what it says in that book. The practice is stupid, and will backfire, as you are now witnessing.
What morons thought that it was a better idea to “plant” a story and make it look like it came from independent, civilian sources than to simply publish the story under its true and rightful attribution, should be fired.
The world is not made up of little children who need to have their daddies spell out the words to keep them from finding out what they are really saying.
Treat people like adults, that’s my advice, and if your military manual says it’s okay to do otherwise, throw the fucking thing in the trash can where it belongs. People in the hammer business always think every problem is a damned nail.
The Disenfranchised Voter
Pfff. How about we don’t plant fake news stories for our “friends” either in Iraq or at home. This was not aimed at the insurgents. It was aimed at the Iraqis and to some extent the American public.
If it was directed at the insurgents it would be completelty acceptable. But this was aimed at the Iraqis that we are trying to win over. And you think the best way to do win them over is to misled and manipulate them? Real smart strategy there! You would be a 4 star general by now if you had only enlisted 6 months ago.
Jack Burton
So now we’re just talking about nuclear threat. Damn, I didn’t realize we were operating under ppGaz’s definition of WMD. Okay, that explains a lot. Well why didn’t you just say so?
Cute little trick trying to go back to the George Sr. liking Wilson as some sort of relevance to this particular pack of lies. Are we now saying that lying is okay if the person doing the lying was liked by 41? Well, in that case the Iran-Contra pardons were A okay in your book.
Joe Wilson lied, you know it, and of course I know it. You try to cover those lies by comparing it to the whole fucked up situation, but you don’t and can’t state that Joe Wilson has not lied. As I know he lied, as does the rest of the world excluding you, I have reason to trust the other things he’s said. You see, if you’ll lie about one thing, what else are you lying about. I’ll cut you off at the pass with your pending retort about the White House lying and what else are they lying about, but we’re not talking about them, we’re talking about Joe Wilson. And Joe Wilson lied to the American people to further his own political agenda, and you want to give him a medal. I guess fake but accurate is SOP.
Jason
Pp,
Whatever, general. I guess you know better than Clinton’s CJCS, who led the effort to write the manual in the first place.
No, you wouldn’t. Because you know everything.
That has not been established. But leaking details about ongoing covert IO activities is stupid, and criminal.
Yeah, leaks of classified information tend to do that. But it does not follow that an unleaked program isn’t a smart idea. The Clinton Administration thought it was, or they wouldn’t have included the population as a legitimate target of IO, which of course it is.
Well, precisely. And it is completely acceptable either way. It may be a bad journalism practice, but that’s on the Iraqis. Not on us.
And if you are so naive that you think the general population is not targeted in IO campaigns, you are just too sheltered and ignorant for words.
I mean, you probably think that “Amber Alerts” are targeted at reaching the abductor.
John S.
Nah, Jason, that seems to be your territory. You come in here and spout your bullshit from up on high because you’re familiar with military terminology and then want to accuse others of being arrogant know-it-alls?
Classic.
Jason
Well, let’s see. I’m engaging in discussions specifically on military affairs. I happen to know the doctrine – or at least I’m familiar with enough of it that I can google terms like “information operations” and find it, no problem.
So I share the source, and make that information available to everyone.
Well, the ones who chose to disregard that information, and try to have this debate as if it doesn’t take place within the context of a broader informational operations effort are the arrogant know-it-alls.
I’m not so arrogant to think I know better than the JCS. So I looked it up.
Which is a damn sight better than most everyone else has done. Most here are trying to ground their discussion in…in…in… well, nothing in particular, other than some vague notion that things that Bush does are BAD.
The Disenfranchised Voter
That’s funny. I saw more people criticizing the people who pushed this policy at pentagon than anyone else.
Very few criticisms on this issue even mentioned Bush. In all honesty, he probably is so far out of the loop (and that is a good thing in a way) that he didn’t even know this was going on.
ppGaz
Translation: Those who choose to think for themselves.
Of course, such a thing is probably anathema to you.
Some of us don’t have to look up in a military manual to figure out if something is a good idea or not.
ppGaz
Nope, people who reach for their military manuals are the ones who think they know everything.
In the context of this conversation, I know exactly one thing: This planted story thing is stupid. It’s counterproductive. It’s the kind of thing that manipulators do.
Like just about everything else these idiot potatoheads have done, this will turn out to be another example of ineptitude that ends up endangering people and hurting whatever those morons though the cause was.
There are reasons why, in free countries, the civilians command the military. This is an example of one of those reasons.
Like I said upthread, not even the putzes in the White House are going along with this one.
ppGaz
The nuclear threat defines the entire context of the Wilson story. There was no nuclear threat. Wilson had a duty to point out the huge gaps in that bullshit story. For doing that, he’s a hero. Too bad it wasn’t early enough to prevent a foolish war, but that’s another story.
I’m sorry, are we at war with something called “Joe Wilson?” Did the country march to war to attack the lies of Joe Wilson?
We are talking about the treasonous manipulation of a country to war, and you are babbling about something called Joe Wilson … a hero who stood up to the lying manipulators and called them on their bullshit.
You’re an ass. You are standing up for a president who joked about WMDs because he couldn’t find any. You now join the noble brigade made up of Darrell, Mac Buckets and John Cole, proud defenders of the lying alcoholic little piece of shit in the White House who made jokes about WMDs. Congratulations.
ppGaz
Are you an American citizen? Then you might want to read the first words in the Constitution:
We the people.
Now “We the Joint Chiefs of Staff.” Those guys work for us, not the other way around.
Jason
Geez, I’ve never seen anyone so proud of being ignorant before.
John S.
Why, you don’t have any mirrors in your house?
Bruce Moomaw
Jason: “I’m not so arrogant to think I know better than the JCS.”
Good. In that case, maybe you can explain why this story was blown precisely because “many senior military officials” were extremely upset by the way this particular operation was set up, and consequently squealed simultaneously to separate reporting teams for Knight-Ridder, the LA Times and the NY Times. Quoting Knight-Ridder:
“Many military officials, however, said they were concerned that the payments to Iraqi journalists and other covert information operations in Iraq had become so extensive that they were corroding the effort to build democracy and undermining U.S. credibility in Iraq. They also worry that information in the Iraqi press that’s been planted or paid for by the U.S. military could “blow back” to the American public.
“Eight current and former military, defense and other U.S. officials in Baghdad and Washington agreed to discuss the payments to Iraqi reporters and other American military information operations because they fear that the efforts are promoting practices that are unacceptable for a democracy. They requested anonymity to avoid retaliation.
” ‘We are teaching them (Iraqi journalists) the wrong things,’ one military officer said.
“Moreover, the defense and military officials said, the U.S. public is at risk of being influenced by the information operations because what’s planted in the Iraqi media can be picked up by international news organizations and Internet bloggers…
“On at least one occasion, psychological warfare specialists have taken a group of international journalists on a tour of Iraq’s border with Syria, a route used by Islamic terrorists and arms smugglers, one of the officials said. Usually, these duties are the responsibility of military public-affairs officers.
“In Iraq, public affairs staff at the American-run multinational headquarters in Baghdad have been combined with information operations experts in an organization known as the Information Operations Task Force. The unit’s public affairs officers are subservient to the information operations experts, military and defense officials said.
“The result is a ‘fuzzing up’ of what’s supposed to be a strict division between public affairs, which provides factual information about U.S. military operations, and information operations, which can use propaganda and doctored or false information to influence enemy actions, perceptions and behavior.
“Information operations are intended to ‘influence foreign adversary audiences using psychological operations capabilities,’ according to a Sept. 27, 2004, memo sent to top American commanders by the former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, retired Air Force Gen. Richard B. Myers.
“Myers warned that putting public affairs and information operations in the same office had ‘the potential to compromise the commander’s credibility with the media and the public.’
Quoting the LA Times: “The military’s information operations campaign has sparked a backlash among some senior military officers in Iraq and at the Pentagon who argue that attempts to subvert the news media could destroy the U.S. military’s credibility in other nations and with the American public.
” ‘Here we are trying to create the principles of democracy in Iraq. Every speech we give in that country is about democracy. And we’re breaking all the first principles of democracy when we’re doing it,’ said a senior Pentagon official who opposes the practice of planting stories in the Iraqi media.”
And quoting the NY Times: “The military’s top commanders, including Gen. Peter Pace, the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, did not know about the Lincoln Group contract until Wednesday, when it was first described by The Los Angeles Times, said a senior military official who was not authorized to speak publicly…
“Pentagon officials said General Pace and other top officials were disturbed by the reported details of the propaganda campaign and demanded explanations from senior officers in Iraq, the official said.”
So, while you may not think you know more than the JCS, it turns out that Rumsfeld definitely does, and has therefore been keeping them in the dark on his schemes. Heavens, what a surprise.
Jason
Doctrinally, the use of IO is supposed to be coordinated with higher. Obviously the SOC got too uppity about it – as they are wont to do – and didn’t coordinate with higher. So higher got caught flatfooted.
But there you have it. There WAS an IO cell in Baghdad, and yes, they ARE supposed to coordinate with PAO types, whether or not you put them in the same office. Now, what on earth do you think they do all day, other than drink coffee and run antivirus programs?
As for the concern that the US was at risk of being influenced by the IO operations, that is not a problem at all, as long as the information placed is factual. So far, I haven’t seen anyone claiming it isn’t.
So far, nobody’s been able to point out a single broken regulation or policy.
Other than leaking the details of an ongoing covert operation in the first place.
That fucker ought to be strung up by his thumbs.
The Disenfranchised Voter
You sure do like blaming the messenger, don’t you?
It was obvious that an operation like this would get out in today’s advanced society. It’s the fault of the people in the Pentagon who pushed this policy because they should have realized this was going to happen.
Tim F.
Secret? The DOD was paying scores of random Iraqis to write stories. Not CIA-trained operatives, just folks who showed enough of an interest in journalism and money to basically answer a classified ad. Does that sound like Area 51? No. You could use the fact that word took this long to get out as evidence of divine intervention.
Bruce Moomaw
Latest from Washington Post tonight:
” ‘Serious allegations have been raised that suggest the process may be functioning in a manner different than is intended or appropriate,’ the statement [from the US military command in Baghdad] said. Commanders are ‘reviewing these allegations and will investigate any improprieties,’ it said…
“After a briefing from Pentagon officials yesterday, Sen. John W. Warner (R-Va.), chairman of the Armed Services Committee, said he remains ‘gravely concerned about the situation.’ He said the Pentagon is looking into cases in which there may have been ‘an omission’ of labels in newspapers indicating where the material came from or that it was an advertisement.”
So, contrary to what he said, Jason DOES think he knows more than the JCS.
ppGaz
He’s a hero. You’re the one we ought to string up.
You’re a toad for a bunch of crooks masquerading as patriots.
ppGaz
What a surprise. These people who support activities like this, or dream them up, always think they know more than everybody else. That’s the whole point.
If everyone just knows the truth, then gross manipulations and deceptions become a lot less necessary.
You don’t need grotesque psy-ops and you don’t need WHIG units in the White House. You don’t need the likes of Karl Rove and Scooter Libby.
To hell with all these lying, scheming sons of bitches. I hope they all stew in their own putrid juices.
Jason
Oh. I’m the one who should be strung up.
From one poster to another, very classy.
You guys can go play in rhetorical mud puddles together. I’ll stay above that, thanks.
John S.
Isn’t that gonna be sort of difficult when you wallow in the mud?
Oh wait, let me guess…you think your posts are illuminated pearls of wisdom rather than rhetoric, huh?
John S.
For those of you who STILL don’t get it, this piece pretty much sums up the appropriate position on this matter:
Sounds like someone is channeling ppGaz.
Jason
Dismissing the opponent’s arguments as “rhetoric” is the oldest and stupidest trick in the book. And only used, I might add, by people who don’t know what “rhetoric” means.
Here’s a clue. It’s all “rhetoric.”
But when we’re talking about military operations and planning, my rhetoric is grounded in a much greater fund of information than yours – a fact you seem for some reason to resent. Otherwise you would, you know, educate yourself when someone shares the relevant background material with you, rather than flinging ad hominems at me for the egregious act of showing you the joint doctrine for IO warfare.
You can stick your fingers in your ears and pretend that targeting the population at large with IO operations is somehow not legitimate. But again, you’re only showing your ignorance and naivete when you do that.
The US military and associated NGOs are constantly engaged in an IO battle for the Iraqi population all the time, at all levels.
This was just one element in a much larger campaign.
And you still can’t point out a single broken policy or regulation. You can think of some reasons why it might not be effective. And so can I. But you don’t think ANYTHING is effective in Iraq, which kind of inclines me to write you off as an unserious thinker.
Brian
The New York Times and the Los Angeles Times are just upset that other papers are getting to paid to write propaganda while the DNC doesn’t give them a dime to do the same thing.
John S.
Sort of like this guy?
Oh wait, that was you.
Why do you hate yourself?