Excellent op-ed piece in the NY Times today (how many times will I write that?).
No excerpting. Just go read.
Reader Interactions
32Comments
Comments are closed.
Come for the politics, stay for the snark.
We will not go quietly into the night; we will not vanish without a fight.
These are not very smart people, and things got out of hand.
They think we are photo bombing their nice little lives.
He seems like a smart guy, but JFC, what a dick!
Proof that we need a blogger ethics panel.
Republicans seem to think life begins at the candlelight dinner the night before.
Washington Post Catch and Kill, not noticeably better than the Enquirer’s.
They traffic in fear. it is their only currency. if we are fearful, they are winning.
Republicans do not trust women.
It is not hopeless, and we are not helpless.
If you still can’t see these things even now, maybe politics isn’t your forte and you should stop writing about it.
Giving in to doom is how authoritarians win.
Dear media: perhaps we ought to let Donald Trump speak for himself!
If senate republicans had any shame, they’d die of it.
American history and black history cannot be separated.
You would normally have to try pretty hard to self-incriminate this badly.
Not loving this new fraud based economy.
It may be funny to you motherfucker, but it’s not funny to me.
The truth is, these are not very bright guys, and things got out of hand.
Republicans in disarray!
Everything is totally normal and fine!!!
The arc of the moral universe does not bend itself. it is up to us to bend it.
“Alexa, change the president.”
The fundamental promise of conservatism all over the world is a return to an idealized past that never existed.
Lines
See! Just like a frat prank. You libruls don’t understand that we do this so called “torture” to our own guys! Frat prank, I tell you!
StupidityRules
It’s all false. The prisoners and the guards had a sleep over to get to know each other better and when they told each other scary stories an accident happened. Accidents happen, that’s a part of life. There are more important things to focus on.
ppGaz
Why is the Left trying to criminalize interrogation techniques?
Jorge
When my brother describes his Plebe summer at Annapolis, he describes many events that are forms of mild and not so mild torture. His rational, which I tend to agree with, is that unfortunately soldiers have to be prepared for a time when they might be tortured by the enemy. I believe Admiral James Stockdale credits plebe summer with preparing him for what he faced as a POW in Vietnam.
I guess my point is that it seems like a bit of the BS for Rummy to claim that if a method is used to train US soldiers then it can’t be torture.
I just found a relevant quote by Stockdale
phoenixsong.net/fanfiction/story/2392/
“One was on the taking of physical abuse. I think if you were to prepare yourself to be a prisoner of war–and I cannot imagine anybody going about that methodically–one should include a course of familiarization with pain. For what it is worth, I learned the merits of men having taken the physical abuse of body contact in sports. It is a very important experience; you have to practice hurting. There is no question about it.
Second, survival school was based on taking mental harassment. I came out of prison being very happy about the merits of plebe year at the Naval Academy. I hope we do not ever dilute those things. You have to practice being hazed. You have to learn to take a bunch of junk and accept it with a sense of humor.”
DougJ
Why is the left trying to criminalize murder?
Mike S
New poll numbers at polling report. Republicans support torture 59/38/5, Democrats 36/60/4 and Independants 42/52/6.
Mr Furious
New poll numbers from my internal poll of this room. Republicans are fucking clueless, 100/0/0.
kenB
I think the wording of the question maximizes the pro-terror responses:
Do you think the use of torture against suspected terrorists in order to gain important information can often be justified, can sometimes be justified, can rarely be justified, or can never be justified?”
The question implies that using torture will indeed gain important information. Probably the numbers would go down if they took out that clause.
kenB
Er, pro-torture, of course.
srv
If it was good for Jesus, it’s good for them.
StupidityRules
Asking
would be pandering terrorists and their supporters. It’s also unamerican to imply that there is torture that doesn’t lead to intelligence that will stop a ticking time bomb.
KC
Gawd, reading that article is awful. It makes me sick to think we’re now practicing stuff we fought against for half a century.
Sojourner
Because they hate America.
Sine.Qua.Non
You guys make me smile, especially after being ‘bombarded’ by the Protein Wisdom flacks. You guys are serious and absurd simultaneously. Keep it up!
a guy called larry
In the “unsure” column in the polls, does that mean the respondents haven’t been tortured enough to formulate an opinion they think the poll-takers want to hear?
The Comish (sic)
Mr Furious:
Gee, I never would have expected someone as socially adept and incredibly insightful as you would be left alone in a room. I mean, sure, not all Republicans support torture. And some Democrats do. But hey, they’re Republicans, so they’re all fucking clueless, right?
But here’s what I want to know: When did sleep deprivation, prolonged isolation, and standing in an uncomfortable position get put in the same category as chopping off your fingers and ripping out your fingernails? Was it when Bush got into office?
And where’s the line? Are we allowed to ask detainees about their plans to blow up subways? What if those questions make them uncomfortable? Can we still ask? And what if they haven’t had a Diet Coke like all day, and they’re totally tweeking for some caffiene? And what if Akmed is one of those people who thinks it’s freezing even when it’s like 90 degrees in the room, and Jerry is always bitching about leaving the AC on? Do they each get their own, private AC systems?
Here’s my torture scenario: An army colonel learns that a detainee has information on a bomb that’s likely to put his soldier’s lives in jeopardy. The interrogation is going nowhere, since the detainee knows American interrogators won’t do anything to hurt prisoners. So the colonel drags the man outside, pulls his gun from his holster, puts the gun to the detainee’s head, and asks where the bomb is. The detainee is unconvinced that he’s going to be hurt, so he refuses to answer. The colonel pulls fires a round into the barrel next to the detainee’s head. The detainee gives the location of the bomb, which is subsequently defused. Nobody dies; nobody is hurt.
“But wait!” you cry. “The linked op-ed says there’s no proof that torture has ever revealed additional information! So that story is nothing but fiction!”
Except, it happened.
I’m not surprised that some people don’t have the stomach for war, which necessarily involves messy, bloody work. And I suppose it’s a blessing that none of you are in charge of protecting me, my family, or the men and women who make up the military that’s protecting us. I’m just surprised that some of you people have turned your weakness into a virtue.
Mike S
Comish
If you think it’s not torture, meet me anywhere in LA, let me beat you for a while, put you in a sleeping bag and smother the life out of you.
then your family can claim that I tortured you and my defence will be that you deny it’s torture.
I think it’s funny that you think this kind of thinking makes you tough. Weak minded? Yes.
SeesThroughIt
Exceptionally weak-minded. Hell, he’s still trying to run with the “they’re trying to say that not catering to terrorists–and if they’re being detained, they’re definitely terrorists–is torture!” line of, erm, “thinking.” That pretty much shows what where his thinking skills are: severely crippled.
The Comish (sic)
Mike S:
So if I’d rather not do it then it’s torture? Well, then somebody needs to call the Hague about that tv show “Joey,” because I’d rather not watch that. And I’d rather not come into work tomorrow, so someone needs to get a War Crimes Tribunal going against my employer. And, I guess, you should be careful because reading mind-numbing posts is pretty annoying, too.
The relevant question isn’t whether or not sleep deprivation is unpleasant — it is — or whether or not we’re treating detainees the way I’d want to be treated — we’re not. The relevant question is what serves our best interests. If “Do Unto Others” was really that effective of a coda, we wouldn’t ever be at war, which involves doing things that are much more unpleasant than sleep deprivation. And we wouldn’t ever lock people up or question them at all, because who wants to go through that?
Unfortunately, that’s not the world we live in. And while I’m certainly in favor of being as humane as possible, I don’t think we need to give these folks 9 hours of sleep a night with comfy pillows and cups of hot chocolate. If it saves more lives to put someone in a stress position than to sing Kumbaya and weave flower garlands, then I think we should put away the guitar.
The fact that you don’t makes me very, very glad that you’re not in any way responsible for my safety.
The Comish (sic)
SeeThroughIt:
Except, you know, I never said that. So I would have to say that your reasoning isn’t so much “severly crippled” as “dishonest.”
I’m prepared to acknowledge that some people may be subjected to stress techniques that either don’t have relevant knowledge or are totally unconnected to terrorism or actions against our troops.
The big question is — Are you prepared to deal with the consequences if you’re wrong? Are you prepared to deal with the smoldering crater of a city, or the grieveing widows, or pick up the remains of a dead child, if we pass up getting information obtainable through sleep deprivation?
Judging from the left’s reaction to 9/11, and to Iraq, I highly doubt it. You’ll just blame Republicans for failing to protect you, despite the fact that you took away the means by which they could protect you.
ppGaz
I dunno who’s scarier … terrorists, or people like you who talk as if the world is just a real life version of “24”.
Actually, yes I do. It’s you. I am not so afraid of terrorists that I am going to license the government to torture people. They can’t even get bottled water delivered to hurricane victims, and I a going to license them to torture people? A government that behaves like evil Edgar Allen Poe characters?
No thanks. I don’t need that kind of “protection.”
DougJ
You have to imagine the line being snarled by Kiefer Sutherland. It takes on a whole new meaning.
a guy called larry
So… We torture guys just to stay in shape while we’re waiting for the city-saving senario to come along? What if we don’t have the seemingly popular 24 hours to find it? What if we get the guy when we only have 3? We torture him, he tells us some bullshit place where the bomb isn’t, time we get back to torture him some more, it’s too late. Damn. Bang.
There are just as many situations that won’t work as there are that do. How will we know that torturing the guy is heroic?
StupidityRules
StupidityRules
Seem to have had my first BLOCKQUOTE mishap. But since I’m the fourth person quoteing the same line, I’m gueesing it’s pretty obvious what I really meant to quote…
SeesThroughIt
Right. Here’s what you actually posted:
Sorry I didn’t use your exact examples–withholding Diet Coke, asking uncomfortable questions, etc.–but I certainly didn’t mischaracterize the spirit of your post.
Also, all your talk about widows and American death and the like certainly doesn’t seem to apply to the people who failed miserably on 9/11 then tried to claim that they would “protect America,” does it? Good to see you’re consistent in your outrage.
But keep trying to use hypothetical scare stories as rationale for actual torture. It sure is a good look.
The Comish (sic)
SeeThroughIt:
You didn’t? Where did I say “and if they’re being detained, they’re definitely terrorists”? Let me help you out: I didn’t.
SeeThroughIt:
Thank you for proving my point. And since you’re unlikely to actually read my post for its actual meaning (instead of lining up talking points from some lefty board), let me help you out. I’m talking about when I said this:
The Comish (sic)
ppGaz:
Once again, the disconnect from reality is almost shocking. Almost.
The terrorists would love to turn the world into a real life version of “24.” In case you need a reminder, they already have.
And between me — who wants to discuss maintaining the American government’s ability to extract information from known terrorists through stress techniques — and people who want to blow up nuclear reactors, there really shouldn’t be any contest as to who’s more dangerous. But I guess the real enemy is the American government.
The fact that you see the American government and al Queda as equivalent evils is staggering.
The Comish (sic)
StupidityRules:
Agreed. Of course, I never said you should torture all prisoners. Obviously, you have to show some discretion in when and how to use stress techniques. But there are circumstances in which is will be called for. So why take it off the table?
The Comish (sic)
a guy called larry:
Of course not. We use methods that are commensurate with the situation. No one is suggesting that we nuke countries for slight affronts either. It’s all about using force appropriate to the situation. That’s what’s required of individuals when using self defense, and it should be allowed for troops and the government when defending Americans at home and abroad.
a guy called larry:
And what if we ask him nicely and he tells us the wrong information? We go back to ask him again, but it’s too late. Guess we shouldn’t ask them at all, right?
I’m not saying that stress techniques are foolproof. I’m saying that I’m in favor of using methods that are the most likely to get reliable information, with the allowed methods varying depending on the situation. We’re not going to stick hot pokers in someone’s eye to get information about a jaywalking.
a guy called larry:
I don’t know it’s heroic. But I can envision situations in which it is. So I’d rather not make it illegal in situations in which it would not only be heroic, but necessary.
ppGaz
Sorry, I’m not buying your second-rate-tv-show version of the world. You, sir, are full of shit.
The Comish (sic)
ppGaz:
My second rate, tv show version of the world? So you think 9/11, the Madrid train bombings, and the plot to blow up an Australian nuclear reactor are just my imagination?
Unbelievable. You’ve gone past willful ignorance and into clinical delusion.