Closed Session
Call this blog fashionably late for the party. It appears that Harry Reid has invoked Rule 21, which closes the Senate to the news media, in order to chat about that “phase two” of the Senate Select Committee on Inteligence. You’ll recall that Pat Roberts (R – Kan) promised to follow up the report on CIA errors with an investigation into administration misbehavior. Then Bush won and Roberts put that off indefinitely.
Many are describing this move as an outright ‘revolt’ by the Democratic party. Frist is reportedly steaming at the ears.
Reid says he’s doing it because the Fitzgerald indictments suggest that there’s a real need for that “phase two” investigation. Possibly representing the rightwing perspective, Jeff Goldstein argues that Reid wants power so much that he’s willing to destroy America to get it.
My instinctive reaction is that Reid senses that the political winds have shifted. Rather than look reactive, and possibly from the fighting instinct he honed as an amateur boxer, Reid wants to get ahead of the curve, to be pro-active rather than re-active. When the majority of the country now believes that the Bush administration and the Republican party in general has major integrity problems, particularly with respect to pre-Iraq war intel it’s simply smart politics for the Democrats to say, let the Republican party stand line up behind that. To put it another way, recent poll found that 77% of Democrats and 22% of Republicans felt that Democrats were not being forceful enough in challenging the GOP policy centerpiece, the Iraq war. There you go.
Discuss.
***Update***
Folks, even if you disagree with him Jeff G is hardly a bad guy, and I only picked his post for illustrative purposes. Play nice.
*** Update ***
This post was by Tim F., not me. That is why we have the little names on top, so let’s clear that up right now. This update, however, is by me, and I have made it blue so it can stand out.
1.) While I would have rathered Reid consulted Frist first, he didn’t. Had he consulted Frist first, and Frist used parliamentary procedure to deny Reid’s demands, then I probably would have looked upon this maneuver more favorably.
2.) Regardless, Reid and the Democrats have done nothing wrong from a parliamentary standpoint. They have invoked their right, and I have no problem with it.
3.) I do not see what the problem is with an investigation into pre-war intelligence, although I can see that the potential exists for manipulation of the intelligence for partisan benefits on both sides. I would prefer that a complete and honest and open investigation is conducted, although I am of the opinion that Republicans will most likely downplay shortcomings in the build-up to war and Democrats will overstate them. I think the American public is smart enough to make their own decisions, and really think this is a tempest in a teapot, for now.
4.) There have been some pretty disgusting comments made in the comments section, including rather inflammatory and nasty insults. Knock it off. All of you.
John (5:35 pm).
Enigma
I’m going to assume Reid has a “smoking gun” on the info that led to war. Reid has a history of apathy so this is quite suprising to me. When I say apathy, I mean hyperbole rhetoric resulting in lack of action.
Today he took action, so I assume its based on something conclusive.
The Disenfranchised Voter
Is there really any doubt whatsoever that Tom Daschle’s loss was really a blessing in disguise for the Democrats and other anti-Bush folk?
Give ‘em hell, Harry!
Mike S
Totally agree. Demanding that the GOP do their constitutional duty is way over the line. The President needs and should get the ability to do whatever he wishes without any congressional oversight.
washerdreyer
Yes, there is some reason to think that one vote in the Senate is worth more than the marginal improvement of Reid over Daschle. In the end, maybe not, but one Senate vote is pretty f’n big.
SomeCallMeTim
I don’t know what Republicans are complaining about. They said we’d get an investigation into possible misuse of intelligence by the Administration. Democrats (wrongly, I think) agreed to put it off until after the election. It is now afer the election. There is, at a minimum, sufficient evidence to justify suspicions of Administration misuse of intelligence. Iraq was a mistake, American soldiers are at risk, American blood and treasure is being spent. Who wouldn’t want to know what went wrong? What possible reason could Republicans have for not finding out about the truth of any such allegations?
Perhaps they have suspicions about the truth, and don’t want it said. Perhaps they just hate America.
Gratefulcub
That’s great. reid is going to destroy america by making 100 senators sit in a closed room together and listen to each other talk.
Or am i missing something here?
OK, i will go read the link.
Lines
Goldylocks just can’t stand democracy, can he? Why does he hate America?
Have we turned the corner on America hating jokes?
Steve
I don’t get at all why Congressional oversight of the Executive is tantamount to “destroying the country.”
Just because our country has enemies does not mean that we must all march in lockstep behind the Leader with no room for dissent. And it was cheap of Roberts to promise, promise, promise phase II of the investigation and then after the election, suddenly decide it wasn’t necessary any more.
What’s going to happen the next time we go to war? What if Bush is still in the White House, or for that matter, what if he isn’t? When our leadership tells us why we need to go to war, will we have any idea whether we can trust them?
We need to bring back the idea of responsible oversight so the public can have confidence once again that decisions are being made appropriately. The GOP Congress, which investigated every little allegation that came up regarding Clinton but then decided not a whit of oversight was required for the Bush White House, has really let the country down.
Elected representatives owe their first allegiance to the country and to the Constitution, not to a political party. And that holds true no matter how often someone says that everything the President does is in the national interest and that it’s treason to question him.
Sojourner
Awesome
Finally, there’s a glimmer of hope that this country will regain its moral bearings.
Stormy70
This looks like a temper tantrum by the Dems. This was in the Rockefeller Memo from years back saying they can always gin up an “intelligence” investigation to hurt the Administration. BDS is strong with the Democrats. The CIA needs their funding cut if the best they have to send to investigate is a media-whore hack like Wilson. Morons.
Off topic – Delay got the judge removed from his case.
Lines
The comments on Goldilocks page are hilarious. To imagine that this is a complete waste of time is a joke. Do these people not pay any attention to public sentiment and leanings? When close to 60% of the populace believe we were lied into a war, doesn’t that mean a damn thing?
Oh wait, 60% of our populace are liberal sheep! I get it now.
Poor Spongebob Goldipants. He lives in his own little world, unable to just wait and see how something turns out, he has to call everything a conspiracy and a sham. How many times is he proved wrong and he ignores it like the demented piss-ant he really has become.
Lines
Quick Stormy! Rush in and change the topic, like claiming that this is all about Joe Wilson! Don’t you have some more talking points, like how Valerie wasn’t covert, how all her neighbors knew her identity and how her Supergirl tights never fit her after her pregnancy, allowing the people of Russia to see her tummy tattoo of Lenin?
Stormy70
Hey Lines, you insult like a girl. All that outrage must be vented somewhere, right?
This looks like a Dem fundraising stunt, because their base will be pissed when Alito waltzes through the Senate. Got to throw some red meat to the base, distracting them, while the Supreme Court slips through the Dems fingers.
Defense Guy
So why would he invoke a closed session? I thought the one of the current memes is that the administration was too secretive, does Reid think that this sort of secretive act is necessary to keep up, or do they not keep track of their arguments from one week to the next?
Steve
Stormy is right that the Rockefeller memo is a key document. For those who are unfamiliar, that memo addresses the issue: “Given that we’re in the minority, how do we highlight the issue of phony intelligence for the American people?”
The thing is, Stormy doesn’t believe that there was anything wrong with the intelligence about Saddam’s “nuclear program” and the like, so she thinks the Democrats are just trying to trump up a phony investigation. But if you are part of the majority of people in this country who believe that something was fishy about the intelligence, then you’d be all in favor of getting to the bottom of it. And it’s entirely appropriate for Democrats to figure out a strategy to get around Republican attempts to cover it up.
The investigation that Reid is demanding is nothing more or less than the phase II investigation that the Republicans promised prior to the last election. It’s been over a year now, and they just refuse to live up to their promise. If there really was nothing worth investigating, why would they have agreed to phase II in the first place?
Lines
John:
You want people to play nice with a dipshit that believes that Reid hates America and this is a Democratic attempt to destroy the whole country? I’m sorry, Jeff G’s new level of stupidity moves him so far out to the fringes that all he deserves is the same level of contempt and scorn usually reserved for people like Stormy.
Congrats, Stormy, you win the Supreme Court while you lose the country. Thats a true accomplishment, you must be so damn proud. How’s that brown shirt and jack boots fitting? All ready for your parade?
Tim F.
This is why we need a Senate Parliamentarian around here. As it stands I haven’t the faintest idea why a closed session would be necessary. Reid’s statement might help. You can bet we’ll know more, one way or the other, soon enough.
Vlad
He’s probably going to talk about something that only people with a clearance are allowed to hear.
Plus, this gives the networks a chance to whip themselves into a frenzy of speculation about what he might be saying.
KC
Good. It’s about time somebody do something. If there’s anything that bothers me the most about what’s happening now, it’s the over deferential attitude to the executive branch by Congress. This doesn’t mean I think that Congress needs to block all of Bush’s actions or anything like that, it just means that there is a job Congress ought to be doing—ensuring money and time are being spent well and right by the executive branch, lawfully too. Doesn’t mean the system is perfect, doesn’t mean Congress will always do its job right or not overstep its bounds, but it does mean that they take their oversight responsibilities seriously.
Mike S
You can read the memo here. Read the whole thing and find where the problems are. If you believe that congress’ job is to make sure that nothing gets through that hurts the administration then you will have problems with the memo.
However, if you believe that congress’ constitutional duty is to act as a check against and have some oversight of the office of the Presidency then you won’t have a problem.
Here is the important part, imo.
...In that regard we may have already compiled all the public statements on Iraq made by senior administration officials. We will identify the most exaggerated claims. We will contrast them with the intelligence estimates that have since been declassified. Our additional views will also, among other things, castigate the majority for seeking to limit the scope of the inquiry.
The Democrats will then be in a strong position to reopen the question of establishing an Independent Commission [i.e., the Corzine Amendment.]
3) Prepare to launch an independent investigation when it becomes clear we have exhausted the opportunity to usefully collaborate with the majority. We can pull the trigger on an independent investigation of the administration’s use of intelligence at any time. But we can only do so once.
The best time to do so will probably be next year, either:
A) After we have already released our additional views on an interim report, thereby providing as many as three opportunities to make our case to the public. Additional views on the interim report (1). The announcement of our independent investigation (2). And (3) additional views on the final investigation. Or:
B) Once we identify solid leads the majority does not want to pursue, we would attract more coverage and have greater credibility in that context than one in which we simply launch an independent investigation based on principled but vague notions regarding the use of intelligence. ...
Anderson
Oh come on, Repubs … an intel disaster, and you HONESTLY don’t want an investigation into how it happened, to help prevent its happening again?
Who knows, your boys might be cleared entirely of any bad behavior! (/chuckle)
But seriously: YOU CONTROL THE SENATE TODAY. DO YOU WANT THE INVESTIGATION TODAY, OR WHEN YOU’VE LOST IT???
Sojourner
Sorry, Stormy, but a lot of us are not willing to bend over and grab our ankles for this administration.
Go ahead if you enjoy that sort of thing but the rest of us will go ahead and encourage our elected representatives to learn the truth.
Lines
As far as I’ve been able to determine, its a closed session because items of national security and intelligence are to be discussed without fear of someone without the proper security clearance overhearing. I don’t think the secret session is meant to draw more attention, but I could be wrong, he could be playing a superb hand of poker. Its time to wait and see what comes of it.
Mike
Talking about treason in a time of war….Reid should be committed.
Davebo
I would never claim Jeff is a bad guy. I’ve never met him and rarely read his blog.
But in this there can be no doubt whatsoever.
Basically either Jeff is woefully ignorant on Senator Roberts unkept promise on the matter and the scope of the existing report, or he’s so full of shit his eyes are brown.
Which ironically is exactly the choices we’re given regarding Bush, Cheney, Feith, et all and their claims in the buildup to war.
Tim F.
Lines,
The post was by me, and I added the addendum because I’m not trying to set off a flame war in Jeff’s comments. I included his post jsut to give a sense of what the ‘other side’ is saying. I don’t think he means that Democrats as a whole hate America and want terrorists to win, only that invoking Rule 21 can be a dangerous move for American democracy.
Is he right? I don’t know. This is the first time I’ve heard of Rule 21. I figure it’s safer to let the experts work it out before I say anything for sure.
Mike S
Enough DougJ. No Republican is that stupid.
Gratefulcub
OK, I read the post. I hope I recover by tomorrow. But, since I read some of the comments, I don’t think I will make it to work tomorrow.
Are you guys all aware that the CIA should be on trial, not Libby?
There was a bi-partisan senate report that completely exonerated the administration?
Fitz has said that the run up to the war showed no signs of intelligence manipulation?
Democrats holding a ‘closed door session’ is soooooo ironic, because they complain about Bushco’s secrecy?
I am going to go read Kos now to learn about the last days of the Bush empire, as it cracks under the weight of its own hubris
Matt
Jeff G is either a fool or a desperate partisan spinner. This is a well-timed political gambit, yes, but it’s also goddamned important.
John S.
When Jeff Goldstein makes moronic statements like:
For my part, I find that whatever ridicule and scorn he gets he has entirely earned.
Vladi G
Having read a number of the posts that John has linked to over the past few months, I think he is clearly both a fool AND a desperate partisan.
Rick
You go, Harry! That ain’t the edge of a cliff straight ahead; it’s just one of those painted ones, like in Roadrunner cartoons.
Go-go-go-go!
Cordially…
VictorRay
This looks like a temper tantrum by the Dems.
You got that right, Stormy. Dingy Harry will tee off moderates with this sort of stunt. Playing right into our hands, I must say.
Mike S
Way the fuck out of line Andrei. What s=a disgusting comment.
Lines
Sorry Tim, but I’m going to always disagree with you after the fecal matter that Jeffy G has thrown. His inability to discuss this matter with even a mild amount of neutrality shows that he’s blind to Democracy or its tenets.
Its good that he’s outting himself like this. It shows him for the total partisan that I always suspected he was. His occasional witty insight or discussion seems to be a thing of the past and he’s become a shit slinger worthy of LGF or freeper land. Get that boy a spot on Fox!
SomeCallMeTim
I don’t think he means that Democrats as a whole hate America and want terrorists to win, only that invoking Rule 21 can be a dangerous move for American democracy.
Supporting an Administration that thinks it’s appropriate to detain an American citizen indefinitely without charging him or giving him a trial, OTOH, is totally awesome for American democracy.
Gimme a break; if you don’t understand American democracy, don’t critique American democracy.
Lines
Andrei, her comment was ignorant and useless to the discussion. I find them humorous and about on the level of “you’re insane” kind of posts from Defense Guy over the last week.
I bring it on myself, I’ll ignore it myself, thank you, though.
Steve
What was the goal of the GOP during the Clinton years, if not to bring down the administration by any means necessary? All the investigations into this or that deal that happened years ago in Arkansas, suddenly it became the most pressing business of the United States Senate. But when it comes time to look at whether the Executive Branch cocked up phony intelligence, oh no, the Senate Intelligence Committee is far too busy for that.
Gratefulcub seems to be ignoring the fact that the GOP promised a phase II investigation that would touch upon, among other things, whether policymakers misused intelligence. If the phase I report “completely exonerated” the administration, then why would the GOP agree to do a phase II? Of course, the answer is that we live in a world where “complete exoneration” occurs whenever you don’t get indicted.
Anyway, all the GOP supporters who claim that this investigation is ridiculous and unneeded are going to look awfully stupid when they realize the official GOP position, as Trent Lott just stated, is that the phase II investigation was going to be announced next week anyway and therefore today’s events were just a publicity stunt by the Dems.
The Disenfranchised Voter
LOL.
Back and forth comments from two nutjobs is always an interesting read.
This move will case away moderates my ass. The Dems demanded the Senate do it’s job and that is gonna case off moderates. Jesus christ that is some strong ass Kool Aid you have your hands on Victor…
jobiuspublius
Didn’t the Senate, perhaps unwittingly, interfere with Iran/Contra by investigating it? Something about an immunity fouling a conviction? I hope that doesn’t happen. If Roberts gets a spot on the investigation commitee that will be … unfortunate. Watch him get in.
DougJ
What’s the point in calling people like Stormy names? It’s exactly what she wants you to do.
pmm
You’re all class, Andrei.
DougJ
As far as I’m concerned, Jeff Goldstein hasn’t done anything decent since “The Fly”. Okay, there was that one good apple commercial. But other than that? Washed up.
Stormy70
Godwin’s Law, dude.
Andrei – Please, I never run to John. I’ve been called worse by better. Gotta have groupthink here, or Andrei will start his habitual meltdown. BDS to the max!
Defense Guy
Closed door session, so how do you exactly know what was demanded? You only know what they claim.
For the record, I have no problem with the Phase II investigation going forward. It will be what they always are, a partisan protection racket designed to protect each other on both sides of the aisle, but what the hell.
Tim F.
Andrei,
You’re right. That comment was over the line. On a personal level I think that you should go cool off and then apologize.
Andrei
I agree. But I’m seriously fed up with the faux-bully tactics and taunts used by people who claim to be conservatives these days. Their approach imho is so incredibly idiotic that I used an out of bounds over the top idiotic response to illustrate a point. (And being a red-meat, David Mamet fan of the theater, I’m not offended by language in the least.)
Like I said though, I’m fine with the comment being removed.
Steve
DG is right, phase I was a total whitewash, and phase II will probably be more of the same. But at least they’ll be pretending to do their job of oversight.
This whole idea that moderates hate “obstructionism” has become a predictable laugher. Who are the obstructionists in this situation, the Democrats for demanding a closed session, or the Republicans who held up phase II for two years? Just as Republicans are constantly claiming that Democrats have no ideas, I will advise my GOP friends that they need to find a better message for increasing their majority than “the Democrats are a bunch of obstructionists.” Not every race is in South Dakota. You need to show why your agenda isn’t something worthy of obstruction.
Steve S
Steve (the better, smarter one wrote:)
Well clearly, those investigations were because the Republicans were so desperate for power they were willing to destroy the country to get it.
Jeff Goldstein suffers from paranoid projection. He believes that since he(and his comrades) were willing to destroy the country to gain power, that clearly that must be the case for their political opponents as well.
Considering that Reid is essentially asking the question “Were the Republicans so desperate for power, that they forced us into this disasterous Iraq war using deceit just to get it?” That is, clearly Reid is not the one desperate for power… he is in fact accusing the Republicans of that.
And I think it’s clear from the way they have tried to shift the focus away from Iraq that they are afraid of that question. The Downing Street Memo that came up in the British elections pretty much sealed the deal on why we went into Iraq in the first place… it was considered good politics by the Whitehouse. Couple that with Bush’s biographer who said that in his conversations Bush admitted that he thought a President should Wag the Dog a little bit to get what he wanted.
ppGaz
Funny. Really.
Now, the principal wants to see you in his office. Something about “insufferable spoofing”.
Andrei
Tim, I’m not going to apologize. You are free to remove the comment. But considering I have to suffer people like Darrell and Stormy being allowed to vote as it is… I view that as punishment enough.
Lines
Godwin’s Law is for high school idiots.
A government by a single party is no Representation. Its full of the exact kind of corruption we’re seeing right now. If the Supreme Court does swing from its semi-neutral position to one that actively legislates for the neo-Conservative wing of politics, this country will be more like Nazi Germany than ever before. If thats what you want, fine, but you need to understand that its a valid comparison. Your support and glee at “winning” is about as Democratic as Saddam’s regime.
DougJ
ppGaz, at this point you accuse every new right-winger of being me. You’re wrong on the vast majority of them. The only one that is me is the irascible richard bennet.
ppGaz
Yes … but the question is slightly off-target. Not “desperate for power” so much as just “arrogant.”
They arrogantly charged ahead, even in the face of less-than-compelling intelligence, even in the face of somber warnings from within the Cabinet, even in the face of rather commonsense suggestions to spend more time on inspections and being sure of the facts, even in the face of technical alarms sounded by their own staff … full speed ahead. The foolish arrogance showed itself with the Mission Accomplished boast … how utterly stupid, and blind and deaf these people were to reality!
DougJ
Just apologize, andrei. It’s really not appropriate, what you said.
Oliver Willis » Section 21
[...] >> Video of CNN’s Cafferty: We have a right to know. >> Reid’s assault on Senate GOP >> Senate Meets in Closed Door Session >> Professional smear artist Michelle Malkin calls it a temper tantrum and tries to give Democrats “advice”. Again, I say, shut the eff up. >> Glenn Reynolds compares dead soldiers in Iraq to Bill Clinton’s marital infidelity. Does the RNC pay in cash or checks, Glenn? >> Senate Democratic Leader Harry Reid’s Stock Moves Strongly Up >> According to the increasingly incoherent Jeff Goldstein (and cheered on by John Cole), Democrats are destroying America by insisting that the Senate… do it’s job. The bastards! [...]
Defense Guy
Lines
Your comparison to Nazi Germany is just idiotic. Our system is representation, and we have the elections to prove it. Your problem is with the American people who elected the GOP to power in 2 branches of the fed. You either need to drink more or less, not sure which.
ppGaz
Again, funny. Really.
But NOT FUNNY. If only you WERE Bennett, but alas, he is a real live horse’s ass. But Victor and RA and at least one or two other “posters” here the last few days are you.
Like Salmon Rushdie, you may become a marked man. Forced to hide out and come out for food only at night. You have been warned.
Stormy70
First of all, Congress couldn’t investigate themselves out of a paper bag.
Second of all, I don’t need Andrei’s apology. He’s the equivalent of the Forest Gump guy who hits his girl then blames it on that lying, son of a bitch , Johnson. Comedy relief.
Sojourner
Here kitty, kitty….
srv
Oh, what a blessing that the Dems have finally found their constitutional compass and will enlighten us with the truth. Three years and 2000 dead too late.
Where would be without more warmongers to question the rational for the war they voted for?
Kimmitt
Remember, they’re always doing exactly what they accuse you of doing.
slide
I was just saying yesterday how I had underestimated Senator Reid. Perhaps, just fuckin perhaps, the Dems are listening to the best politican they had in a long long time, Bill Clinton, when he told them they had to fight. Mix it up. The GOP is weakened. Scandal upon scandal. Public losing confidence. Seen as a failure. Now is the time to get in their face and stand for something. Fight Alito. Fight Sen Roberts non-action. Get mad and hell and scream out the window, “We’re not going to take it anymore” and you will have legions of support.
Lines
Stormy, why do you think Congress is investigating only itself? This very well could take down Wilson, Tenet, Powell and all sorts of Administration cronies long before they turn on themselves. Congress wasn’t selling this war, the Pentagon and Whitehouse were, and it wasn’t Reid that was visiting CIA Headquarters daily.
You just don’t like your side being caught in lies and misdirections. Thats the problem with being so attached to a “side”, you forget what it means to be objective.
DougJ
ppGaz, in all honesty, I’ve only had one fake identity here in the past week. If I’m lying, may Fitzgerald indict me. You’ve become paranoid or there are other spoofers.
ppGaz
Sorry, “Salmon Rushdie” is my pet fish.
I meant Salman Rushdie, of course.
Nikki
Defense Guy,
You DO realize that all 100 senators are behind the closed doors and not just the Dems, right?
ppGaz
That bright light you just saw? That’s a bolt of lightning headed for your noggin ….........
DougJ
Stormy, I think you’re not going far enough. Congress can’t investigate, I agree, but really, no one is good at investigating, except possibly Fox News. Wouldn’t it be better if we had no investigations of anything ever and just relied on the word of our president at all times?
Victor Ray
Bwaaaaaaaaaahahahahahaha!
Mike S
I’m confused by that comment. Would you have had a problem with Frist had he thwarted the maneuver? I think there are times that the only option is to do it by surprise.
Agreed. For my part I am doing my best to walk away from comments that piss me off so much that I respond in such a manner. It’s helping my blood pressure and ulcers.
Victor Ray
Yes, but only during Republican administrations.
Tim F.
Truth. Or at least so far as I can tell.
Lines
So John, just to clear it up, can I still call Jeffy G a pimp gangsta for the Republican Party? Can I show how his shit slinging is a defense mechanism caused by his lack of genitalia?
How far is too far? Is refering to him as a glorified twink, knees calloused and bruised from so much time on them something that goes too far?
If you don’t see how refering to this perfectly legal move as a destruction of American Democracy is WAY over the line and proof of his inability to work without talking points, then whats the point of having comments? You may as well be right all the time.
At least by calling him out, making inflammitory remarks he might actually pay attention to something outside of his circle jerk of friends that just cheer him on. His new level of stupidity is a reaching new levels of willful ignorance. Maybe we should put a moratorium on linking to him until he gets his first pubic hairs?
Andrei
Why? Stormy complained someone was insulting her like they were a girl, so I tossed an insult at her that was decidely grown up, over the top, and grossly macho and base. I gave her what she complained she was lacking. And not because I didn’t think Lines couldn’t fight back with her… I insulted her specifically to illustrate what happens when she gets what she asks for. And now look at her reponse. She complains now that I’m hitting on girls in some mean or unfair way. I mean… seriously.
I’m sick of political conservatives fighting using dirty tactics and name calling on blogs, talk radio and on television, then complaining when someone turns around and fights back at them with similar tactics. Frist just did that today with regard to Harry Reid. Far too many do so on this blog.
I’m honestly beyond tired of even attempting to converse with them but find that ignoring them has allowed them to gain power in far too many parts of the government. When we are much too quiet, all we get on television are partisan pundits, some 80% or so largely GOP, running over the conversation in the country.
Liberals are constantly being accused of being soft on crime, soft on security and soft on being alpha males in general. So I used an over the top example to illustrate a point back.
No way in hell I apologize to Stormy. I’m truly at the point where if people like Stormy are going to continue to beg for mindless verbal, partisan fights either through their obvious bait style tactics of rhetoric or through open taunting, then I’ll show them what that looks like if they refuse to acknowldge what a moderate, intellecutally honest discussion looks like.
Defense Guy
Yes, of course. Now tell me why it matters.
DougJ
I am not doing this new “Victor Ray” guy here, obviously. I’m glad someone is spoofing, though—this thread needs it after all the name calling.
babaram
Did I miss something? Didn’t we have this debate for a year or so before the election? y know..Bush lied,,people died? whats new about this..also,right after sept 11 didn.t congresspass some sort of war resoluyin to th prez? didn’t senator.s vote for the war? are the senator’s stupid or…is this just politics?/thanks
Lines
Good explanation, Andrei.
And DG, it matters because public opinion matters, as much as you want to ignore it.
DougJ
So John, just to clear it up, can I still call Jeffy G a pimp gangsta for the Republican Party?
Yes, just so long as you remember Big Daddy Kane’s mantra “Pimping ain’t easy.”
Steve S
Hitler had elections to prove it as well.
JoeTx
Its about time the democrats stood up to the rethuglicans. Its about time we had a two party system again. The rethuglicans have zero ethics, zero morals and have shown zero responsibility to the americans they represent!
Mike
Now we know who in the Senate supports Al-Qaeda.
The democrat hacks will do anything to hurt America—even during a time of war
Defense Guy
Sure he did Steve S., an accurate representation of the people’s will no doubt. Either you are being snarky, which is my guess, or you have caught an incurable case of BDS.
Stormy70
Andrei – comedy relief. No complaints from me for your insults. I understand that happy go-lucky conservatives piss you off to no end, but a sense of humor might help you in these dark times of all Republican rule. You know, Doug J is my polar opposite, but he is funny as hell. You might consult with him about keeping a sense of humor, or are you in Academia?
Derek Flint
Good for you Andrei…
Mike S
Stormy
It’s hard to tell where you’re coming from in many of your comments. Many of them piss me off and I actually like you so I can see how some people would blow up. If some are jokes it sure is hard to see them.
As far as Andrei’s comment, I was offended regardless of whether you were. Where I come from that type of thing is not said to a woman and if it is it is incumbant on any man in the area to smack that crap down. I don’t have much respect for any man that doesn’t do so.
My wife wouldn’t be all that bothered if someone called her one either. But the man who said it would be dealing with the wrath of her husband.
DougJ
ppGaz, I am not Mike. He must be a spoof, though.
DougJ
Now we know who in the Senate supports Al-Qaeda.
Is good, though. I like Mike.
DougJ
Do you think maybe that’s why they had the session behind closed doors, so that some of the senators could declare their fealty to Al-Qaeda without cameras present?
The Disenfranchised Voter
While Mike may be a spoof, those comments are geniune. They were posted at Kos to show what the freepers are saying.
Scary thought…
Ancient Purple
You are out of your mind. How is calling a CLOSED SESSION of the Senate a threat to the Republic and a nod to Al-Qaeda?
JWeidner
Funny as hell to me that the Repubs are allowed to hold a vote open an extra 2 or 3 hours to twist enough arms to get passage, and Dems pull a little parlimentary maneuvering and all hell breaks loose…
DougJ
Ancient purple, as I pointed out, it is possible that some of the senators took loyalty oaths to Osama bin Laden without cameras present.
Stormy70
Mike S – The reason it did not offend me is because it came from Andrei. He’s always pissed and insults anyone who does not agree with him. I have only been called that name once, so it is not something I am used to in my daily life. However, I do enjoy Deadwood, so the word has no power anymore. :)
As for my comments, they piss off people who don’t agree with me, which is 95% of this board now. It used to be 95% right of center commenters, but it changed during the Shaivo unpleasantness. I like coming here, and I will continue the snarky comments. It’s not like the people here don’t bring the snark against Bush or anyone that actually likes the man. Most people here can’t even fathom someone could actually think like me, without mentioning Kool-aid every other post. I have voted for Bush 4 times in my life, so I have been a fan far longer than you guys have hated him. I have my father’s sense of humor, and his politics. Blame the Genes!
jg
Anything the dems do that the repubs don’t like, the repubs turn into an attack on america. Stupid except that the republican party is made up of uneducated ass clowns who will go along with anything that’s said by Rush or Hannity.
Hundreds of years ago village leaders cleared out undesirable families by having them declared witches. Now the tactic is to declare them traitors. Its as ridiculous as witchcraft but as easy to sell to the public, sadly.
DougJ
Good for you, Stormy, sticking it out when others don’t agree with you. I know I may have said some mean things about you in the past, but you should know that 95% of the 95% who disagree with you politically respect you for duking it out with them even when you’re badly outnumbered.
In Andrei’s defense, I think what you’re seeing is that a lot of liberals are sick of being called “traitors” and “america haters” (not by you, you don’t do that as far as I know) and they’re lashing out at the wrong targets. He’d really like to call Ann Coulter a c**t and that would be warranted. She’s said a lot worse about liberals. So I think that’s where it’s coming from. But, obviously, to direct this anger at you is misguided at best.
Mike in SLO
Blah, Blah. Blah, WHO CARES? Can you please take your converstations between Andrei and Stormy and those who wish to comment elsewhere? Will you please stick to the post? This is the biggest news of the day, yet this thread has turned into a therapy session, enough already!
Andrei
If DougJ were a weatherman, I’d know what to wear every day to work he is so damn accurate.
Bob In Pacifica
If “girl-type” arguing is subpar, shouldn’t they have to notify their husbands if girls want to get abortions?
It’s a small, small world inside Stormy’s mind. If Joe Wilson is a “media-hack whore,” then what does that make the DiGenova-Toensing combo who probably get ten to twenty times the face time on the tube to rip him?
Ah, but the difference is that Wilson is using that phony story about there not being any Niger yellowcake purchased by Saddam for the purpose of parading himself in front of the public. Sort of like Anna Nicole Smith. Meanwhile, the frequent appearances of Team DiGenova-Toensing is to help to straighten out the record, about important things, like how “everyone knew” that Plame was CIA. Even though no one steps up to say how he or she knew before Novak’s spittle hit the press.
The Irascible Richard Bennett
Jeff made an interesting observation about the crowd here, to wit:
I can understand the sentiment.
DougJ, who is not irascible, says:
Actually, Dougie, a lot of liberals are traitors and America-haters, and in normal times they wear these labels proudly. It used to be the case that liberals considered themselves internationalists, and were more likely to salute the UN flag (or the Olympic flag, because it looks cooler) than the Stars & Stripes. The classical liberal considered nationalism a form of fascism, and he proudly turned his back on it.
But nowadays, black is white and white is black, so our liberals make common cause with Pat Buchanan and turn their backs on suffering Arabs and Africans lest military intervention to prevent genocide among them might adversely affect their prospects for more free stuff from daddy government.
So it’s certainly fair, in some instances at least, to call them anti-American and traitorous when they advocate policies contrary to the human interest of our fellow passengers on Spaceship Earth.
The Irascible Richard Bennett
Incidentally, Joe Wilson is a big fat lying liar of a self-serving hack.
And did I mention that he’s a liar? Well, he is.
Krista
DougJ, you naughty monkey. My my, I had fun sparring with you yesterday evening.
Andrei, please tell me that you did not call Stormy that. There are certain lines that just are not crossed, and even though many of us here disagree (vehemently) with Stormy, we have a grudging respect for how well she holds her own. I have yet to see her write a check that her ass can’t cash. If you choose to not apologize, that’s your business, but you should know that you’ve lost the respect of pretty much everybody here.
Sojourner
Sorry, Krista. On this one I have to disagree. Stormy says the things she does intentionally in order to create controversy. How else to explain someone who defends the rape of women and children. If she gets slapped down, so be it. Treating the girls differently is sexist.
The Irascible Richard Bennett
So it’s OK to call women cunts, but we can’t call them chicks?
These rules are complicated.
PS: I am not DougJ.
Sojourner
You use the term chick to refer to all women, for example, pregnant chicks. That’s a derogatory term applied to people you’ve never even met.
The fact that Andrei chose to apply a derogatory term to a woman with whom he was angry is a whole different case.
My apologies if this is too subtle a distinction for you.
Krista
Gah…my head hurts. Okay, a summary, and then I’m off for a bit…
The Democratic party growing some ‘nads—good.
An investigation into administration misbehavior—good.
Calling women chicks—annoying, but I there are bigger battles to fight.
Calling women cunts—bad, regardless of the provocation.
It’s just an icky, nasty, hateful word. Stormy can be deliberately provocative and insulting, but calling her that offends me. It’s just a word that makes me cringe.
Sojourner
Does that mean that I can’t refer to an annoying guy as a “dick”? Frankly, it’s a word I find to be very useful.
Fair is fair, right?
Bob In Pacifica
Here are a few comments over at Jeff Goldstein’s site, you know, that Jeff who’s hardly a bad guy. I think the first quote is his, maybe the second too. Apparently, poor pitiful Defense Guy was having trouble holding on to his version of reality over here at the Juice:
“Skip it, Defense guy. These idiots coming over here from Cole’s site are over there calling me all sort of choice names. Cole’s site is a sewer. I’m through with it.”
“If John wants to host that band of dickless fucktards, that’s his business. I don’t need them over here.”
“Cole needs to fumigate the place and start over.”
So, Mr. Cole, in order to get reinstated with hardly bad guys like Jeff G., I guess you’re going to have to politically cleanse your site, removing those of us who don’t agree with you.
In psychiatry, when you get to the point that you need to destroy the “other,” you have reached they call “the withdrawal from consensual reality.”
“Dickless fucktards”? Is that the way real conservative men talk, Stormy?
P.S.: Does “Protein Reality” have something to do with Jeff Gannon and Karl Rove?
The Irascible Richard Bennett
The use of the term “chick” for a young woman goes back to the 50s, when the corresponding term for a young was “cat”. Neither is derogatory in any way.
Calling a woman a “cunt” because you don’t like her style of expression is hate speech, of course, and should not be allowed. This term reduces a woman to a feature of her anatomy, where “chick” simply invokes the image of soft and lovable creature.
Bob In Pacifica
I hear that both Trent Lott and Pat Roberts have said that they were going to start Phase Two next week even if the Dems hadn’t forced the issue.
Apparently, Trent had speaking engagements with the ACLU and the NAACP this week, and Roberts was going to personally check on the welfare of people working in the slaughterhouses.
The Irascible Richard Bennett
Of course not. You’re a liberal feminist and therefore immune from any consistency requirements. You can also call men “assholes”, but not women.
That’s because you’re illiterate.
Mike
Gosh, These low poll numbers must mean that things will be really, really bad for the Republicans in 2006. Let’s examine the polls (http://www.pollingreport.com/congjob.htm)
Harris Poll:
How do you rate the job the Republicans in Congress are doing? Excellent/Pretty Good, Only Fair/Poor
Only Fair/Poor = 64%
How do you rate the job the Democrats in Congress are doing? Excellent/Pretty Good, Only Fair/Poor
Only Fair/Poor = 65%
Oh…maybe not.
ppGaz
In Stormy’s defense, she shouldn’t be on trial here because somebody called her an offensive name. I don’t think she provoked it. Mind you, I have been as pissed off at Stormy at one time or another as anyone here, but in this case, I don’t think the attack was provoked.
Us guys should feel free to call each other pretty much anything in the course of the everyday flame wars here … and we do. But I don’t think we need to descend to calling the distaff participants the kind of names we call each other, no matter how pissed off we get, and that includes me, so if I cross that line, I expect all of you to call me on it immediately.
As for the place being a “sewer” ... nah. John doesn’t let it get to that point, and IMO the blog is a more interesting place for the gloves-off commentary that goes on here.
Last but not least, Andrei, take the day off and come back tomorrow and apologize. You’ll be glad you did. It’s not an admission that you’re wrong about anything, it’s just in the interest of promoting a better place here. Hell, if I can do it, you can do it.
The Irascible Richard Bennett
What an odd remark:
Somebody forgot to take his meds again. Who is the “we”?
ppGaz
Your letter from the special counsel is in the mail. You are Poster X.
ppGaz
The decent, right people. The people who are not you.
ppGaz
“We were asleep at the switch. We relied on the same flawed intelligence the White House relied on (with regard to WMDs).”
Jesus. The talking heads have no shame, apparently. Mrs. Greenspan was asleep at the switch.
Who knew?
Emma Zahn
Stormy, I am genuinely curious as to why Bush appeals to you. He reminds me in so many ways of my brother. While I love my brother, I would never want him to be president.
Also, you describe yourself as a fan. I don’t understand that. To me the President of the United States is too important a position to be decided like an American Idol contest. I want a President I would be willing to make guardian of my children and grandchildren or someone I would be willing to make a trustee of my estate. The Presidency (and every other elected office) is essentially a fiduciary responsbility. It is not a celebrity cult or zero-sum sporting contest. To treat it as either is dangerous and divisive. Proof? Look around.
ppGaz
Oops—I forgot to tag my quote:
—Andrea Mitchell (switch sleeper)
DougJ
We have the most pathetic media in the world, ppgaz. I saw that too. The entire Gang of 500 should be tried for treason.
PotVsKtl
1. Libby is not on trial for manipulating intelligence leading up to the war on Iraq.
2. No, there wasn’t. No assessment has ever been completed.
3. No, he didn’t. He was not investigating manipulation of intelligence and indicated this.
4. Them’s the rules Jack. You want all the members on the floor, you want to discuss national security in a manner that requires discussion of national secrets, you close the doors.
The Irascible Richard Bennett
Emma Zahn*, people voted for Bush in 2000 because he wasn’t Al Gore and they voted for him in 2004 because he wasn’t Teresa Heinz’ bitch.
You don’t have to be a fan to choose the lesser of the two comedies.
*I do not speak for that Stormy chick in any way.
DougJ
But I am the Irascible Richard Bennett. You are a fictitious character. You can’t be anybody.
The Irascible Richard Bennett
DougJ, you’re a cunt.
DougJ
That’s not me—someone is spoofing me as the Irascible Richard Bennett.
ppGaz
Possibly, although we are most likely second to North Korea.
The Irascible Richard Bennett
That’s a very anti-American remark, ppGaz.
ppGaz
.
You misspelled “I’m a runt”, little man.
Enigma
Quit bickering, you sound like a bunch of old ladies.
Sojourner
Give me a break. It’s exactly this sexist bullshit that gives managers an excuse not to invite the little ladies to informal outings because the ladies might be offended by “man talk.” And guess what, the people who get promoted are the ones who the top execs feel comfortable with. Don’t tell me it doesn’t happen because I’ve seen it for myself. It’s an excuse to discriminate and in this day and age it’s unacceptable.
I’m really surprised, ppGaz, that you of all people believe this shit.
Contrary to what you want to think, we’re not all the weaker sex. Grow up.
DougJ
ppGaz, the media in North Korea face dire consequences if they attempt to be honest. The worst ours face is not getting invited to Bob Woodward’s cocktail parties. So I would argue that ours is more pathetic. I know this sounds corny, but thank God for the blogs. All of them.
ppGaz
I’ll be the judge of that. Don’t you have trick-or-treating to do?
Sojourner
A very young, defenseless, harmless creature. Reminding us once again of how insecure men can be.
Sojourner
Gore won in 2000.
ppGaz
“You of all people?”
WTF does that mean? I’m a guy. I’ll call another guy every body part in the book. But I won’t call a woman those names. Not my way of being. It isn’t about offending you, it’s about the way I want to be.
If that isn’t to your liking, then all due respect, tough shit.
Sojourner
That’s better.
ppGaz
Well, he didn’t exactly win … he just got more votes.
Bob In Pacifica
ppGaz, the “dickless fucktards” quote came from the conservative thinks (I guess that’s what you call ‘em) at Goldstein’s “Protein Love” site.
Hours ago, as you may recall, Stormy insulted Lines by saying, “Hey Lines, you insult like a girl.” Actually, Lines pointed out that Stormy was using the typical Rethug talking point of attacking Wilson, and pointing that out is sort of effeminate in Stormy’s world. So I guess she prefers the manly men over in the “Protein Guy” site, where they want to exterminate what conflicts with their internalized version of truth.
By the way, Clinton should send a gift to the Wilsons for, at least temporarily, becoming the Republican scapegoat replacement.
Andrei
Sorry, once again, I’ll repeat for the last time… I’m not going to apologize. You guys are acting as if I meant the comment. I’ll say it for the last time, I was giving Stormy an example of what she was asking for to prove just how silly and absurd her tactic of name calling and baiting was. She said someone insulted her like a girl (implying it was weak and pitiful for an “attack”), so I gave her the kind of insult we used to throw at each in boarding school that was anything but. (And I went to the same boarding school that James Baker and lot of current republican party power mongers went to. I know the kinds of things rich, powerful white men say in private, and my comment was tame in comparison.)
I made the obviously out of bounds comment to exemplify a larger point: The republican party has overtaken the rhetoric aimed and politcal discourse all over the media and so many blogs and are giving no room or leeway for a reasoned or rational response. All we get these days are intellectually dishonest discourse backed by verbal bullying and bait and switch debating tactics. While I know the far left has engaged in their part of it, I find the large majority of the abuse of these tactics coming from the right these days and for the last 10 years.
Today’s commentary coming from the right wing talk show and punditry on the Reid manuveur wass a classic case in point.
If the GOP or those in power were truly interested in what a large majority of us think and truly want to find a way to live with us in harmony inside our own country, they’d stop atagonizing moderates and progressives with blatantly abusive, dishonest and rhetorical partisan hackery.
You can chide me all you want for pulling a Mel Gibson with my excessive example to make a point, but I see nothing to apologize for given the current climate of attack partisan politics foisted onto the majority of us by the other side of the aisle and promoted on this web site and engaged by everyone here, including the stuff started by Cole himself and the things you have said yourself ppGaz.
Sojourner
Andrei has nothing to apologize for. My only wish is that the Dem leadership would have the guts to be as aggressive with those who are either dishonest or intentionally ignorant.
Andrei
“I made the obviously out of bounds comment to exemplify a larger point: The republican party has overtaken the rhetoric aimed and politcal discourse all over the media and so many blogs and are giving no room or leeway for a reasoned or rational response.”
Rephrase… I meant:
I made the obviously out of bounds comment to exemplify a larger point: The republican party has overtaken the rhetoric. they’ve aimed it and politcal discourse found all over the media and so many blogs into the gutter, and are giving no room or leeway for a reasoned or rational response
DougJ
Andrei, I think you should apologize.
I also think that everyone on the right who has called someone on the left a “traitor” or an “america hater” should apologize (unless it was done as a joke, as DG, for example, is wont to do).
The Irascible Richard Bennett
Andrei, you’re obviously an unrepentant woman-hater. We don’t need your kind in our country, so why don’t you go back where you came from?
ppGaz
Whatever. I’ve apologized after cooling off, too. I just offered a suggestion.
It’s all theater. All of it. The Reidisms, the Fristisms, the Mehlmanisms and the ppGazisms and the IrascibleRichardBennettisms.
Sometimes it’s worthwhile to just stand back from the fray and light a fart just for the hell of it, if you know what I mean.
tzs
Quoting from “We Will Rock You”:
“What is this “chick” stuff?! Do I look like I have feathers?!”
Doug
The Republicans and the Democrats have sort of a prisoner’s dilemma going on. In the prisoner’s dilemma, if both sides are nice, everybody wins a little bit. If Official B is nice but Official A punches him in the nose, then Official A wins a lot and Official B loses a lot. If both sides punch each other in the nose, both sides lose a little. Turns out, the most rational way to play the game is to be nice on the first round. After that, you just do what the other guy did in the previous round.
The Republicans have been playing rough. Being gentlemanly for a little while is appropriate, but after awhile—a long while, the Dems have appropriately decided to take off the gloves. I think Reid has demonstrated that it is in the majority’s best interest to cooperate a bit with the minority. If the minority doesn’t have a voice anyway, there are numerous parliamentary tricks with which the minority can grind the Senate to a halt.
And, before someone cries me a river about how unfair it is that the minority can dictate to the majority, be prepared to justify why that is a problem but it wasn’t a problem for Bush to occupy the White House on the strength of fewer votes than Gore got. I know, that’s how the electoral college works. But this is how the Senate works.
Andrei
You’re a smart guy DougJ, so don’t take this wrong way.
But I’ll make a deal with you… You apologize for posting under various pseudonyms aimed at atagonizing or queering certain discussions, aimed at making a large majority of posters on this site look foolish or ridiculous for taking your troll bait, and generally adding to the overall snark factor found on Balloon Juice which has heightened the overall attack factor found in today’s discussion that supposedly pas for real meaningful discourse, and I’ll apologize for pull a Mel Gibson and using the “c” word for shock factor.
And further, you promise to stop doing it from here on out since you are obviously an extremely smart individual who knows better and knows what your disguises were intended to do, and I’ll do the same.
stickler
With all due respect, ppGaz:
It’s a sort of theater, I guess. But it’s a sort of theater where, so far, about 2,025 members of the audience have been killed. What they’re talking about in that closed session is the most explosive and disgusting violation of the public trust since the bastards from south of the Mason-Dixon Line tried to destroy the United States in 1860.
ppGaz
Believe me, I know that, and I get at least as pissed off as anyone here over this stuff.
But utlimately, John Cole is right: It’s a blog. We aren’t actually fighting the war in here. So some perspective is handy at times. It’s a lecture I’ve received numerous times when it I needed to hear it, and so I’m just returning the favor.
DougJ
Andrei, I’m glad to have this debate with you, because it is something I feel strongly about:
Snark—for lack of a better word—is good. Snark is right. Snark works. Snark clarifies, cuts through and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Snark, in all of its forms—snark for life, for money, for love, knowledge—has marked the upward surge of mankind. And snark—you mark my works—will not only save this blog but that other malfunctioning corporation called the USA.
DougJ
And on a more serious note, Andrei, I think that parodying the right serves a real purpose: it shows that certain elements in the right have gone so far overboard that one can on longer distinguish between their rhetoric and a parody of their rhetoric. Of the last five characters ppgaz accused me of being, only one was actually me. The others were serious posters. Doesn’t that say something sad about right-wing rhetoric?
DougJ
Anyway, sorry to hog the thread here, but I can’t see why you wouldn’t agree that you’ll apologize when the righties apologize for calling liberals traitors and america haters. That just seems fair to me.
ppGaz
I’ve never seen one do it yet, Dougster.
When does this great thing happen?
The Irascible Richard Bennett
Nobody has to parody the left, they do it themselves so convincingly.
Now DougJ, why don’t you just stop polluting the dialog and fuck off? Some of us here have good intentions.
DougJ
Irascible, you are a joke. I’m sorry, I don’t like to say this kind of thing, but it’s true.
There is no way to reason with someone like you. You invite mockery. You deserve mockery. You are a mockery,
The Comish (sic)
stickler:
Yes, they tried to destroy the United States by leaving it. The bastards!
It’s only by sheer luck that Johnny Depp’s attempts to destroy the US (by moving to France) haven’t had their intended effect. Yet.
And Andrei, you might want to stick with one explanation:
Andrei1:
Andrei2 (agrees with the following characterization of his motives):
Andrei3:
Andrei4:
So you did it because 1) she asked for it; 2) you meant it, but you actually meant it about Ann Coulter; 3) you didn’t mean it, but you were satirizing what rich, white men say about non-rich, non-white women; and 4) you didn’t mean it, but you were making a point about how Republicans have debased political discourse.
A little tip—if you’re going to try to excuse your boorish behaviour, you should go with one explanation. Four mutually exclusive explanations just make you look like you’re flailing about for any reason to avoid responsibility.
Personally, I think the last one is the most hilarious. Stormy (a Republican) brushes off an insult (from a Democrat), so you really insult her … to prove that Republicans are crowding out reasoned discourse with all their insults.
Good stuff.
ppGaz
Advice from yet another failed blogger.
They’re like flies.
Well, except that we’re relatively glad to see flies, by comparison.
The Irascible Richard Bennett
ppGaz has a medical problem, so enough about him.
DougJ is simply an idiot with an inordinate need for attention. Dougie, you claim to be making some sort of political point by attempting to steal other people’s identities, but in fact you’re simply trying to derail the discussion in hopes of making it turn toward you so you can bask in the attention.
If you had a point to make, you’d have done it rationally as everybody else does, or at least tries to do. You’re the joke dude, but nobody’s laughing.
dagon
good points all dougj, but i think the heart of what andrei was getting at is that you have your tactics and he has his; and that seems about fair.
words don’t offend me and while fascinating, this is all just a diversion from what i feel is maybe the most monumental thing to happen to the democratic leadership in the last 10 years; these bastards finally grew a spine. doubt they’ll keep it, but they finally showed a glimpse that maybe, maybe they’re are as discusted as i am.
and for the record, i’m leaning to andrei’s side on this one. sadly, i believe that if this country is to be saved (yeah, ith’s THAT serious), we are going to have to get to the point where the virulent anti-intellectualism and cult of personality that is at the root of our current ills is not only attacked at every turn, but demonized to the point where rush limbaugh might have to take up residence on the moon.
to that end, i’ve got to say that outrage handily trumps snark.
peace
ppGaz
DougJ is simply an idiot with an inordinate need
Snort. Any wonder why Dick can’t buy anybody to visit his blog?
Our Dick: He can’t be licked.
The Irascible Richard Bennett
ppGaz, my blog is a Large Mammal in the Bear’s ecosystem. Now run along and play in traffic.
The Irascible Richard Bennett
This is a truly amazing piece of self-deception:
The only element of American politics that’s intellectual in any way of the Neocon movement. The organs of the Left have surrendered to Bush-bashing, junk social science, hysteria, and emotionalism. Bill Kristol exemplifies the neocons, and Arianna Huffington represents the intellectual level of the left.
The Left’s approach to political analysis is to reduce every issue to personality. If you don’t think that reforming the Middle East is a 30-50 year project, then it’s Bush’s war for oil and one man’s attempt to balance the scales with the tormentor of his daddy.
On average, Rebublican voters have more education, higher IQs, more personal income and higher net worth than Democrats. Republican voters can argue issues rationally, Democrats call names and play-act.
The Republican approach to public policy debates is to argue studies and data, the Democrat approach is anecdotal.
You can see the evidence quite clearly on the last five comment threads on this blog.
Dagon, you live in a dream world.
Andrei
I agree with you when that snark is in the form entertainment, like The Daily Show. God bless Jon Stewart who is brilliant at satire and snark. But Stewart constantly tries to remind people that what he does is entertainment, not real political commentary per se. (It’s only commentary from the point of view of trying to inform through entertaiment.) Why do you think Stewart is so kind when people like Bill O’Reilly come on the show? Notice Stewart completely drops the tone of his snark into softer, kinder, gentler mode the moment he has a guest on the show?
When people get personally involved, like they do with comments on a web site, snark cannot maintain the same form without edging dangerously close to brawling. Why? Because it’s personal… it’s not like watching a show.
Your impersonations in the past (I count two, as the former version of DougJ before you finally flipped easily counts as one) I found very funny. I think I was one of the first ones to comment on how what you were doing was an obvious impersonation, even before Cole called you out. But go back at those archives and you’ll see how dangerously close you edged people into crazy land, often times getting them to flip into it with a single sentence. You did your share of derailing topics and making people put themselves on display as not really thinking through an issue. You’re previous act was kind of like Jigsaw from the “Saw” movies… that killer never killed anyone directly, he got them to kill themselves from very precarious situations. You make people look like fools by giving them enough rope to say absurd things in rebuttal to ridiculous comments you make.
What I wrote in this thread was “snark” without the obvious comedy, although Stomry claims to have found it funny. What I did was what I consider punk behavior. Punks aren’t known for doing things most people consider appropriate. But I asked you to apologize to again make a point: I don’t think you need to. You have used your way of queering a discussion point into absurdity in the past, I used a different, more crass method that pushes buttons in a lot of people very specifically. Sorry, I’m not you, I’m not so good at what you are far better at than I.
I’ll finally stop belaboring this point. It’s obvious I said far too much far too long ago.
ppGaz
Sure. Only because you pepper your own comments with your own comments, you average about one comment per thread.
Why wouldn’t people be flocking to read the musings of a smart-ass know-it-all prick like you? I can’t figure it out. But when I do, I’ll let you know.
Nelson Muntz
How whacked out is the modern Republican Party? It’s so whacked out that John Cole is now a Democrat.**
Ha Ha!
** Stolen from Air America Phoenix, 1010AM who know that Barry Goldwater would be a Democrat these days.
The Irascible Richard Bennett
Comments don’t enter into the equation, ppGaz, it’s links from other blogs. This is the last time I’m going to acknowledge your existence, so savor this moment.
ppGaz
Not a “conservative” around today who could wipe Barry Goldwater’s ass.
The Irascible Richard Bennett
Finally some truth.
ppGaz
Wanker.
Mark Wilson
Wow! A total meltdown. Senator Reid and Rule 21 all the way down to “Our Dick: He can’t be licked”—with a number of digressions, including one to determine which is worse, the U.S. or North Korean media.
Tractarian
Remember that Curb Your Enthusiasm episode where they’re all playing cards and they start to playfully insult each other and then Larry calls some lady the C-word and they all stop laughing and kick him out?
LifeThe blogosphere truly does imitate art.ppGaz
I’ll you down as “undecided.”
Tractarian
You can see the evidence quite clearly on the last five comment threads on this blog.
Sorry, I just thought this juxtaposition deserved another look, and another chuckle.
Theseus
Or a “liberal” who can wipe Roosevelt or Truman’s ass.
Enigma
Mark Wilson,
Can you believe American media ranks 14th in the world for freedom? Denmark came out first.
dagon
bennett,
just to clue you in to exactly who it is you’re dealing with:
i’m not talking solely about politics, you ninny. however, if you’re referring to this juvenile partisan bullshit that you seem to enjoy so much, then i would tend to agree with you. clowns like you act like this is some sort of a fucking game, where you get to wear a letterman’s jacket with an R or a D on the back, and blindly chastise the opposing players as subhuman grunts (all the while forgetting that the majority of the players that comprise your ‘team’ are from another country).
Please show me an example when a forced ‘project’ to hasten democracy or to mold another nation (for their own good mind you) has EVER worked. change is revolution baby. and if we’re still trying to squeezing the last drops of oil out of a ravaged middle-east 50 years from now, then brother, we are fucked.
and i’m supposed to buy this because…..? anyway, it’s interesting that just about everything you cited as a positive for your party has to do with money in some or another. aren’t we ultimately to be judged by how we treat the ‘least among us’? hmmmm. and that comment about higher iq’s is just pure bullshit.
well, apparently you missed that seminar. see above.
peace
Blue Neponset
Richard Bennet,
If you think John’s comment section is full of a bunch of “fucktards” why do you continue to participate in his comment section?
Enigma
Some of you people bicker like old ladies on the rag.
Darrell
Japan’s militaristic culture after WWII.. Nazi Germany another example. Those cultures were ‘re-molded’ for their own good, wouldn’t you say?
ppGaz
“Old ladies on the rag” is an oxymoron, you idiot.
Enigma America » Fabricated Documents…
[...] Balloon Juice has the best coverage.. [...]
Theseus
On the ostensible subject of this thread, well, if the Dems wanted to make themselves look even more idiotic and stupid, I can think of no better way than trying to prove, for the upteenth time, that the administration “lied” and “deceived” poor, stupid, naive, gullible us into going to war. I suppose it’s a bit inconvenient for them considering they were such stallwart supporters when it was perceived that the GOP would stand to gain from the war. But it’s nice to see where the Dems heart lie when times get tougher than anticipated. I wonder what their positions will be if the public perceives Iraq, down the road, to be heading in the right direction again.
Rather than let the GOP continue to shoot themselves in the foot, the Dems seem intent on throwing them a lifeline. I welcome Mr. Reid’s “investigation”...bring it on!
Darrell
Can you believe American media ranks 14th in the world for freedom? Denmark came out first.
You have to be f*cking kidding. I love Denmark, but that nanny state taxes their beer and booze into the stratosphere, and they have really weird rules restricting the purchase of over the counter medicine. You can’t get much over the counter medicine without first going to one of their doctors. I’d like to see by what standards that survey uses to define ‘most free’
ppGaz
Yes, Darrell, the parallels between Iraq and Japan and Germany are wide and deep throughout history.
Take Iraqi Bonzai Trees, for example ….
The Irascible Richard Bennett
I’ll give you two: post WWII Germany and Japan.
Next question.
For some figures on education and voter preference, see this article.
ppGaz
Why? Are you suggesting you’d change your tune if you knew the method?
Slide
Whew. Interesting thread. Glad I wasn’t here. Oh, and for what its worth, Andrei was wrong to insult Stormy as she can do that on her own quite well thank-you, but Andrei was right regarding the queering of threads by DougJ. Bennett as usual was right about nothing at all and ppGaz was… well ppGaz was ppGaz.
DougJ
Andrei, I’m not saying everyone should snark or something like that.
My point is really this: when one starts to get really incensed at someone like Stormy, it’s time to step back and laugh. Stormy can go too far, but she means well. Save it for Dick Cheney.
To the Irascible one: you have no one’s respect as long as you call people traitors and america haters. It’s that simple. No one here is a traitor or an America hater.
Theseus
It took about fifty years (more than that if you go back before WW2) to defeat Communism as a viable ideology or way to organize a society. Considering the amount of reform that needs to be done in most of the Muslim world and the powerful role that Islam plays in almost every facet of life, much like Christianity before the Reformation, not too mention close to 1400 years of history, tradition, etc., I would say that we would be extremely lucky to be able to discredit and defeat, with the help of the overwhelming majority of sane Muslims, the Salafist/Islamic radicalism that is seething out of that region in the next fifty years. I doubt it. Iraq and Afghanistan are good first steps though.
ppGaz
Wait, I need to break into the Popeye song …
I yam what I yam
And that’s all what I yam …
I’m strong to the finich
‘cause I eats my spinach ….
(featuring Darrell as Brutus, and Our Big Dick Bennet as Wimpy)
Slide
I for one find Stormy entertaining. Half of what she says is said with tongue firmly planted in her cheek. The other half of the time she is inebriated. Entertaining in either case.
dagon
i guess you’re pre-supposing that i feel that christianity is sane. I’m not going to get into an argument about equilavency between radical islam and some of the more, shall we say…fired up segments of the american christian movement but i think you can see where i’m headed.
personally, i’m not all that concerned about a organized, politically sanctioned effort to “discredit and defeat…the Salafist/Islamic radicalism that is seething out of that region.” i’m MUCH more concerned about the hypocrisy of OUR elected representatives talking the talk about freedom and democracy while sipping daquiries on the private yahts of the architects of the oppression that has created such a jet-fueled incubator for said radicalism.
and, go ahead and get your ‘america-hater’ gun ready, but i happen to know that WE operated unded an affective aparteid arguably up until just a few short years ago. there are ways to do things and there are ways to do things that benefit the people; not just their masters.
peace
TallDave
This action is perfectly emblematic of the Democrat Dilemma (and shows they are no closer to solving it than they were in 2004 with “for the war before he was against it”): how do you appease your nutty antiwar base and look strong on national security at the same time?
Apparently, the answer is to attack Bush with charges that everyone knows aren’t really true but poll well, like that he lied to get us into the war (why he would want to do this is left unclear at best, but usually “Halliburton” figures prominently, a telltale glint of tinfoil). This is not a healthy party.
Mike S
That may be the funniest statement on this thread. Are there any intelligent Republicans left on the net?
dagon
need new glasses or a bigger keyboard folks. i actually do know how to spell equivalency. lol.
peace
TallDave
Nobody has to parody the left, they do it themselves so convincingly.
Hehe, isn’t that why this comment section exists? To prove that?
I mean, look at Mike S a couple comments above. He insists Iraq is irrevocably doomed to disaster; to him, the idea 25 million Iraqis might achieve a free, democratic society is worthy only of ridicule.
Mike S
54% think the war was a mistake and 53% think Bush misled us into it. I guess the real problem will be “appeasing” the idiots that still believe that Bush was honest.
I almost feel sorry for people like Davey. It’s as if he swallows the talking points like a professional bukkake recipient.
Mike S
See my post right before your’s Davey. Wipe your face before you post again.
Slide
the idea that we can impose democracy through a despised military occupation deserves ridicule.
TallDave
Thank you Mike, another perfect example. I just said the accusation polled well, and you attmpted to rebut me by proving what I said, then added a disgusting personal image.
LOL Who needs parody?
ppGaz
Your blog?
TallDave
the idea that we can impose democracy through a despised military occupation
ROFLMAO Yes, because the Japanese and Germans LOVED our occupation. The Italians, too.
The Shia were not sorry to see us come. The Kurds greeted us with flowers. That’s 80% of the country.
TallDave
Ahhh, thank you ppGaz, no discussion of deranged leftist self-parody would be complete without you and your infantile denunciation of someone’s blog. Don’t you get repetitive stress disorder from doing that so often?
Theseus
Well, you got me there, I try ;)...But I suppose I must have missed all the compelling and forceful arguments “principled” Dems like Mr Reid put forth, having received the same intelligence as the White House, in their strenuous and moral opposition to the Iraq War. They sure got snowed back them by the nefarious neocons and the big bad howwible Wepubwicans and it must have been their bizarro counterparts that were warning us of the immense danger that Saddam Hussein posed throughout the 90s up until the eve of the Iraq War.
Whatever, Mr. Reid senses political blood in the water, at least in the short term, but like most things the Dems have tried in their gleeful inquisition of the Anti-Christ, errr, President Bush, they’ll overplay their hand and overreach and look like idiots. President Clinton was blessed with having a substantial minority of the right, infected with Clinton derangement syndrome, act like a bunch of irrational lunatics. Mr. Bush is equally blessed.
dagon
errr,
you’re seriously not trying to equate our post-ww2 efforts re japan and germany to what we did to iraq are you?
peace
ppGaz
No, I don’t see you that often.
What happened tonight? X-Rated movie channel off the air, or ??
ppGaz
Yyyyesss, they are.
You couldn’t invent these guys if they didn’t exist.
Slide
Greeted with flowers says Kool-aid drinking TallDave
The poll, undertaken for the Ministry of Defence and seen by The Sunday Telegraph, shows that up to 65 per cent of Iraqi citizens support attacks and fewer than one per cent think Allied military involvement is helping to improve security in their country.
TallDave
dagon,
No, of course not. We killed millions of Germans and Japanese civilians, bombed major cities to the ground, performed the only wartime use of nuclear weapons ever, then had the unmitigated gall to shove constitutions down the throats of our defeated enemies. Freeing Iraq was far more humane, and they wrote their own constitution. Also, it took 7 years to establish constitutional democracies in those contries; we’ve helped the Iraqis establish one in 2 1/2.
So no, I would not say those are comparable.
ppGaz
Yeah, but to Dave, that’s an upward trend …..
TallDave
Slide,
ROTFLMAO You’re citing a secret poll as evidence??? Well, I guess that heads off any thorny questions about methodology problems.
dagon
talldave,
i honestly have absolutely nothing to say to that.
peace
ppGaz
Ya left ‘em speechless again, Dave.
Up top! High fives!
[ smack ]
Slide
I’m so sick of hearing this ridiculous crap. The intelligence agencies are part of the Executive branch of government. Cheny was making regular and frequent trips to the CIA to get what he wanted. They set up their OWN intelligence group in the Defense Department headed by the guy that Gen. Tommy Frands said was the dumbest fuck on the planet (I may be paraphrasing). No, the congress, like the rest of us, got what the White House wanted us to get. And anybody that got in their way got the Valerie Plame treatment.
ppGaz
Andrea Mitchell today: “We were asleep at the switch. We relied on the same flawed intelligence that the White House did ….”
Asleep at the switch. Your tax dollars at work.
jaime
Dagon…good to see you here. Don’t see you anymore over at Bradblog or dumping on Machete’s site.
Wow. I don’t know what planet you’ve been living on, but on earth the Senate (which has just recently caught Cheney and Libby witholding information) didn’t have access to the WHIG and the OSP and all that was going on in Downing Street.
I remember when Clinton was bouncing rocks around in Afghanistan and the Sudan, these Terror-Warrior Republicans were more interested in the size and shape of Bill Clinton’s penis than Osama Bin Laden.
circlethewagons
Theseus, I’m not sure if that’s entirely true.
Didn’t the White House essentially pick and choose the evidence that it showed Congress (or at the very least, left out contrary findings)?
If I’m wrong, correct me.
And if I’m wrong, feel free to hurl “inflammatory and nasty insults” my way.
I’d hate to feel like I missed all the fun.
Slide
TallDave demonstrating why he is a moron:
The poll was conducted by the British MILITARY. The results of the poll weren’t secret, just the fact that the British military were the ones giving the poll. It was secret, because in a country like Iraq, polling participants are likely to give the pollster the results they think they want to hear. Thats why non-secret US polls always show how much we are loved by the Iraqi population as a guy with an M16 asks all the important questions.
TallDave
The intelligence agencies are part of the Executive branch of government.
Well, most of the intel was from the Clinton era. So are you blaming Clinton now? I thought you hated it when those rightwingers blamed Clinton for everything.
And anybody that got in their way got the Valerie Plame treatment.
LOL Any evidence for this wild accusation? How do you explain the bipartisan Congressional investigation that found no pressure by the White House? And by “Valerie Plame treatment” do you mean their husbands were sent to Niger?
TallDave
Slide,
No, stupid, the poll is secret. If it’s not, let’s see the methoology, because a poll with no methodology is worth squat.
circlethewagons
Well, that just answered my question.
Thanks.
TallDave
Thats why non-secret US polls always show how much we are loved by the Iraqi population as a guy with an M16 asks all the important questions.
OMFG Yeah, that’s right, the military likes to take polls while they’re fighting with insurgents. “Sir! Could you stop shooting and answer a few questions for me! It will only take a minute! Oh, and I don’t speak Arabic, so I hope you speak English!” It’s not like they would have the tiniest amount of common sense needed to have Iraqis do the polling.
Enigma
This place is funny.
Slide
So TallDavid you think that the British Military are skewing the polling results to make things look worse than they really are? ROFLOL Ok. Sure dave, that must be it. What an idiot.
TallDave
Oh, and also your assertion rests on the shaky propoistion that Brits with guns are for some reason less menacing than Americans with guns. Not very well-thought-out on your part.
Lines
Wow, thought I would check out Protein Wasteland.. They all claim the high ground in arguments, but for the life of me, I just don’t seem to remember any Conservatives ever presenting a well thought out case for a debate that I would call winning.
It must be nice to live in their little worlds. As much as it is nice to have a good two sided debate, its just too rare to find a Conservative that provides links and facts instead of “pregnant chick” language parsing.
dagon
not to get sidetracked by fraternization but it’s great to see you too jamie
i still pop in over at machete’s once in a while, but really, there’s little that we can do to him at this point that he hasn’t already done to himself. i check brad out daily but he’s got so much info to read, i rarely post.
yup, and i seem to recall that most of these champions of freedom were too busy accusing clinton of wagging the dog in kosova to actually you know….champion freedom.
peace
TallDave
Slide,
No, I think the “secret poll” story is crap, as do some prominent Iraqi bloggers like ITM (what do they know, they just live there). And since you have no methodology, you have no way of proving it isn’t.
p.lukasiak
Note to Doug J:
Regardless of how many persona you have adopted over the last week, the fact is that the easiest (and healthiest) way to deal with the idiots that you are accused of being is to treat them as if they were spoofs.
The fact that you are the Spoofmaster General at this blog makes you the person we identify as the spoofer. Take it as a compliment, and revel in the public service you are performing—- imagine the flame wars we would be having if we took these morons serious!
Slide
TallDave once again not able to comprehend the most basic of facts:
No. the poll was secret in that those that executed the poll did not know they were doing it for coalition forces as I said.
More incredible stupidity from TallDave:
No my dim witted friend, the polls may very well be conducted by Iraqis but if it is known (not secret) that it is being done by the forces that are occupying your country it is unlikely you would give negative responses. Right Einstein? I mean even YOU can figure that one out right?
DougJ
Funniest thing all day.
Theseus
For whatever it’s worth, I think the Republicans who engaged in this behaviour back then were as idiotic, crass and transparent as the Dems who are doing the same thing today. I understand it of course, it’s politics and all’s fair…though it doesn’t make it right, IMHO.
Though I may disagree with them profoundly, I have much greater respect for those who put forth intelligent, cogent and well, sane arguments against the Iraq War from the very beginning, not because it might suit them politically at any one particular time, but because they genuinely and sincerly believed to be right.
ppGaz
Bwaaaaaaaaahahahaha. Now THERE’S an unimpeachable source.
Does that mean that your blog represents American thought?
Well, let’s see, DKos is hovering at around a million page views a day … well above that on busy news days … they must be right, being Prominent American Bloggers, and all.
In which case, everything you have ever said in your life is wrong. Every word. Wrong.
Methodology, my kiester.
Slide
More on what the poll said:
• 82 per cent are “strongly opposed” to the presence of coalition troops;
• less than one per cent of the population believes coalition forces are responsible for any improvement in security;
• 67 per cent of Iraqis feel less secure because of the occupation;
• 43 per cent of Iraqis believe conditions for peace and stability have worsened;
• 72 per cent do not have confidence in the multi-national forces.
The opinion poll, carried out in August, also debunks claims by both the US and British governments that the general well-being of the average Iraqi is improving in post-Saddam Iraq..ahhhhh… winning hearts and minds
TallDave
Slide,
ROTFLMAO OK idiot, if it’s not secret where’s the methodology? This is like shooting fish in a barrel.
Explain this too:
We DO have the methodology for that one.
Also, 45% is less than half. That’s not exactly “despised.”
TallDave
More perfect examples of self-parody. Hey stupid, why do you think the British military didn’t officially release the poll, but instead the news report says it was “seen by” the newspaper?
I see you can’t answer any of my substantive points. I am shocked, shocked, let me tell you. Well, you guys enjoy another decade of being the minority party!
I’m out.
Slide
God how dumb is this guy? The brilliant TallDave asks, how do you explain this then:
errrr…. the date. March 2004. That is what? 18 months ago? That the point my mensa candidate, we are LOSING ground. Ugh.. is this DougJ? Nobody that can be this dumb unintentionally can they?
jg
Its amazing the lengths people will go to to avoid seeing evidence.
Balloon Juice
[...] Closed Session [...]
Slide
you do? lets see it.
TallDave
ROTFLMAO Slide, yeah let’s gnore the more logical explanation that the secret poll with no methodology is wrong and the non-secret poll that was actually published is right.
I love it when you try to say I’m dumb, the irony is just so delicious.
Slide
Can you believe how dumb this guy is?
perhaps because it was not the results they wanted? Doesn’t that lead to MORE credibility of the poll – that the results were AGAINST the interests of the people giving the poll? jesus Dave, thinnk for a fuckin split second would you instead of being so knee jerk partisan.
TallDave
Right here:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections.....40314.html
Where’s yours? Or admit you lost.
TallDave
Hahahaa keep calling me dumb, it’s hilarious!
Where’s that methodology? Bwahahahaha!
Doesn’t that lead to MORE credibility of the poll –
Yeah, an unpublished poll is more credible that a published one! Stop it, you’re killing me!
Slide
lets see the methodology you talk about dave? waiting.
Steve S
Do you think maybe “conservatives”[and I use that term loosely to describe idiots like Tall Dave] suffer from an inferiority complex? That is, they opposed our involvement in WWII and most notably the Marshall plan at the end of the war to rebuild Europe. Those turned out to be blazing successes, however, so now they seek to recreate this glory with Iraq.
But what Iraq is more similar to is our involvement in liberating Cuba and the Phillipines from Spain.
But that’s not a historical analogy that they wish to consider, because they weren’t successful and 100 years later are still a thorn in our sides.
Slide
Nice try but thats not the BBC poll its an ABC poll that is over a year old. Let me explain this to you nice and slow Dave so perhaps you can understand. BBC. ABC. they are media. Their job is to publish. thats what they do. The British Military are not journalists. They do not do a poll to publish the results. they do a poll to know what is going on for their own needs. The British military is not in the business of publishing. The fact that it was NOT published and was AGAINST the military’s interest lead credance to the poll not detract from it.
TallDave
Slide,
In other words, no methodology. You lose. So sorry, better luck next time.
Nice try but thats not the BBC poll its an ABC poll
Somehow, despite being very very stupid, I did manage to read the link, unlike you:
Part of ABC’s weeklong series, Iraq: Where Things Stand, marking the first anniversary of the war, the poll was co-sponsored with ABC by the German broadcasting network ARD, the BBC and the NHK
Well, that’s all the time I can spend proving water is wet. Girlfriend wants me off the comp and in bed. Bye now!
DougJ
That’s what I was trying to say! Thanks for the succinct summary of what I was blabbing on about.
Slide
Good night Dave, sorry for having embarassed you.
ppGaz
Get to bed, Dave … before your girlfriend needs to be blown up again ;-)
In Search Of Utopia
Democrats find their Cajones!
The Real, “Bring it on,” pose! It’s about freakin’ time! Finaly the Rethuglicans are outgamed, and who would have guessed that bookish little Harry would so brilliantly pulled it off. It’s understandable how angry Frist was today, considering how…
HH
Finally an open debate and investigation before the American public on this very important issue. Thank you, Democrats, for closing the Senate down to the public and barring everyone from the session, so we can get to the truth openly. I’m sure that when the debate is discussed later, Democrats can be trusted to describe it correctly without any distortion. When the American public demands answers, it’s always best to shut off debate from their eyes and ears. Thanks again!
TallDave
LOL I see Slide gave up in defeat.
Damn, I was really looking forward to him explaining how an occupation that even by his secret poll less than half the country feels its legitimate to resist and that is requested by Iraq’s elected gov’t is “despised” and totally unable to bring democracy to Iraq (despite the evidence of two elections and a scheduled third next month).
p.lukasiak
That is, they opposed our involvement in WWII and most notably the Marshall plan at the end of the war to rebuild Europe. Those turned out to be blazing successes, however, so now they seek to recreate this glory with Iraq.
perhaps we should point out to our torture-happy right wing friends that one of the key elements in our success after WWII was the respect that was shown to prisoners of war during that conflict.
Slide
Keep dreaming Dave. Drink up the kool-aid. The fact that Iraq had a couple of elections enforced with the help of 150,000 American troops does not demonstrate a flourishing Democracy to me. And since when is it the job of Americans to insure Democracy in ANY country. Americans should DIE so that we can impose a method of governance on another country? Please give me a break. Who is next? Saudi Arabia? Egypt? Jordan?
And lets just say for a moment that a democracy does take hold in Iraq, why is that necessarily in the interests of the USA? What if they decide to have an Iranian type government, run by religious mullahs? Would that be good? Or what if they decide to elect someone that supports Al Qaeda, where will be then? In many countries in the Middle East the LAST thing we want is democracy because those countries are virulently anti-American.
Such a foolish argument why Americans should be dying at ever increasing numbers. A war dreamed up by a bunch of cowardly chicken hawks that always found a way to avoid actually serving their nation in a time of war.
Bob In Pacifica
We also actually spent money rebuilding Japan and Germany. In case you haven’t been reading anything other than right-wing blogs, there’s no real plan and no money left to rebuild Iraq.
Cadillac Tight » Blog Archive » Snippets
[...] Well, if Tim was late, then I’m very, very late – I’m sure everyone out there in the ’sphere has registered an opinion on this already. Nevertheless, here’s my take: Reid plus, Frist minus. The irony of Bill Frist complaining about Senate decorum doesn’t escape me after his campaigning against Tom Daschle last year, and come on, let’s just admit it: I like watching Bill Frist get smacked around. He’s quite possibly the least effective Senate majority leader there has been in my lifetime, and if the Bush administration can’t see that, then they deserve every last ripple of ill effect that results from Frist’s horrible instincts. All in all, I think this was a fantastic political manuever on the Democrat’s part, and they ought to get credit for it. It’s really interesting to watch this administration get caught so flatfooted, so often lately – I’m just about sold on the fact that Bush is nothing but a great campaigner. [...]