Kos has a poll dealing with my question — do Republicans want to impeach Obama — among others. It’s pretty nuts:
Should Barack Obama be impeached, or not?
Yes 39
No 32
Not Sure 29
Do you think Barack Obama is a socialist?
Yes 63
No 21
Not Sure 16
There’s lots of other nuttiness in there too.
Kos mentions that this poll is part of the research for his upcoming book American Taliban, about the Republican party.
I think it’s fair to ask, and I don’t mean this in a snarky way: is the Taliban this crazy? If one made an honest, detailed comparison between the beliefs of Republican rank-and-file and the beliefs of Taliban rank-and-file, what conclusions would one reach? This is a serious question.
Update. This is probably a better example:
Should public school students be taught that the book of Genesis in the Bible explains how God created the world?
Yes 77
No 15
Not Sure 8
Scruffy McSnufflepuss
You deal with the crazies you have, not the crazies you wish you had.
demo woman
The information that you print about the poll is not enough for me to judge the intelligence of the American Taliban. I did not read the poll but should since I am curious whether or not they also think of the President as Fascist.
Why oh why
Well, the Taliban used to share the Republican approach in the ‘War on drugs’, but lately they have realized that legalization can bring badly needed tax revenues.
So the Taliban do learn and correct failed policies, unlike the GOP.
The Grand Panjandrum
This is pretty outrageous comparison DJ. The Taliban don’t eat pork.
kindness
Conclusions….that both the Republican reichtwingnutz & the Orthodox Taliban are twin brothers of different mothers.
They are linked at the hip. My question: Is there any way we can put them in some god forsaken place & forget about them?
babieca
Yes. They are.
Napoleon
Depends on what you mean by crazy.
Do you mean their actual base beliefs that may be rattling around in their heads? If so I see no evidence that would make me think one is crazier then the other.
If you put a gloss on the concept and only count what each side has actually acted upon/implemented have to go with the Taliban since our crazies have never been in a position to use the force of the state to blow up someone else’s religious site or chop some hands off for a religious infraction. But I have no doubt that if they were in a position to do so they would.
SpotWeld
In all fairness that Gensis question could be interpreted as an explaination of the Bible in the context of a comparitive religion class…
If it were phrased into the context of literal biblical interpretation… I suspect it’d drop down to 40-50%
Zandar
Well, I’ve got a serious answer for you then.
licensed to kill time
Would the Republicans love to have a Ministry of Vice and Virtue? Would they favor the public executions of Frank and Pelosi? Would they like to keep all women in their place at home?
Why, it would be irresponsible not to speculate.
I’d love to see all those pasty old white guys in full beards.
demo woman
Doug has an update, 77% think that the book of Genesis in the Bible explaining how God created the world should be taught?
True story, Georgia Tech now has to have classes when they discuss earth science saying that the formation of the world is just a theory.
jeffreyw
I heard the taliban were doing a pr outreach, they were no longer going to cut ears, lips, or tongues off.
toujoursdan
Obama IS a “socialist” (using their lexicon), but so are they. Imagine modern life without the FDA ensuring our food and drugs are safe, EPA ensuring our air and our water was safe, the FAA regulating the skies, the FCC regulating the airwaves. These Republicans happily ride city streets and Interstate highways over government built bridges to buildings that are built following government mandated safety standards to offices with government mandated safe working conditions.
The quickest way to stop the babble is to remind them that they are “socialists” too. In fact, probably the only difference between American “socialism” and Swedish “socialism” is that the Swedes don’t pretend that they aren’t “socialists” and fund and administer their services adequately. We pretend that we still live on some 18th Century frontier and don’t depend on government (despite the fact that the U.S. has been overwhelmingly urban for decades).
These would be the first people to scream and cry if government only performed functions explicitly expressed in the Constitution. The U.S. was no utopia in 1776. The population are mostly subsistence farmers. People died from all kinds of things that are unthinkable today. The average life expectancy was 39 for goodness sake!
Ash Can
@SpotWeld: I don’t know about that. The wording of the question doesn’t really leave it open to that kind of interpretation.
trollhattan
I’m not certain the Republicans would condone public executions but surely they’d support public waterboarding. At halftime.
demo woman
@SpotWeld: GA public colleges now have a disclaimer in science classes so it’s not just comparative religion classes.
bogart
@SpotWeld: Exactly. Shit, I’d answer yes to that question, and I’m a stone-cold atheist.
dr. bloor
Hard to tease out “crazy” from “galactically ignorant.” Give someone whose informational universe is focused on “Lost” and “American Idol” a multiple choice question about the Real World, and a yea-saying bias along with rank stupidity could yield these results.
Cat
To continue on my Brookesque rant…
Its a shame the same questions weren’t asked of democrats with the same geographic distribution to see how widely some of the social questions differed by region/politics.
Did I miss the highest level of education question?
arguingwithsignposts
I still want to know what portion of the voting population do these numbers account for. Every damned poll talks about percentages of groups, but don’t explain what that means in practice. It leads to a highly misleading impression that the country is split down the middle between goofball idiots like the people who answered these questions and … well, everybody else.
As I asked the other day: 80 percent of 20 percent of the voting population is still less than 20 percent of the voting population.
jager
Do I think Republican/Fundie men would like to go around and spank those naughty teenage girls in the mall for wearing ‘revealing clothing”? As a matter of fact I do.
Do I think they would like to smash the windshields of cars playing loud rap music? Uh-huh.
Do I think that they would like to shut down the National Geographic Channel for showing programs about the earths origin? Why of course, they would.
My business partner is a Republican of the old socially-liberal school (Lincoln Chafee style) and you ought to see the look on his face when I bring up shit like this up, its priceless!
J
What proportion of those who think Obama is a socialist also think he’s completely in the pockets of the bankers, I wonder.
Chris Johnson
@Napoleon: DUDE. Iraq. Hello?
We blew a HELL of a lot more hands off for God than the Taliban have managed to chop off. Our GUNS have bible verses on the gunsights. I’m sorry, but don’t even start with that line of debate. Own what we collectively have done. What the hell?
Sentient Puddle
@arguingwithsignposts: The poll was of Republicans nation-wide, so a rough estimate is between 25% to 30% of the voting population (I don’t know the latest party registration numbers off the top of my head, but they’re somewhere around there, as Democrats have long had an edge on Republicans).
And yes, put in that context, that’s about the only way to feel better about the results of this poll.
Napoleon
By the way, this is an observation I have been meaning to make for a while and the subject of this thread is a perfect time to make it. I know some don’t like reading the Daily Kos because of the view some (most?) of the posters are a little over the edge (and maybe that is true but I happen to really like Kos himself). I know some don’t like Kos. I know some view the netroots chest thumping on effecting elections is not supported by results (I happen to be one, but like that they try).
But all of the above aside the polling work that Kos has paid for and published since he started doing this, and in particular things like this poll, is an invaluable contribution to helping the progressive side and ought to be applauded. For obvious reasons an actual Dem officeholder or organization will not do it, and MSM commissioned polls will shy away from this, or in the case of some of their polling on issues such as HCR they have failed to ask outside the box questions that could illuminate the issues in a way that highlight the points coming from progressives. But having a site like Kos that can generate enough revenue to pay for stuff like this that will be seen by everyone from Ron Brownstein and Norm Ornstein to Brian Williams in and of itself validates the usefulness of a Daily Kos.
Michael
Sweet Baby Jesus and the Troops, it is definitely getting nuttier out there.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2442774/posts
They’re agitating for a coup, and the wingnut led Air Force is the sort of branch that is positioned to do it – it is larded up with pampered and overfed officers in nice, safe, clean bases with gof courses.
John Arbuthnot Fisher
@kindness: “Twin brothers of a different mother” is a perfect way to put it. Both the Taliban and the Republican base have perfected the fusion of Carl Schmitt’s political philosophy (the ‘other,’ the unitary executive, etc.), religious extremism (dominionism and Wahhabism – to whatever extent that influences the Taliban, I don’t know enough to state with certainty), and hypocrisy (Republicans become born again ‘fiscal conservatives’ under Obama, Taliban uses opiate production to finance the insurgency) into a completely detached overall worldview.
Zifnab
I’m reminded of the recent South Park episode where the kids in town decide to label a local biker gang as “Fags”. At first, the town adults think the kids are being derogatory towards gays, but soon everyone starts adopting a change in the terminology. At the end of the episode the term “fag” is completely redefined and has absolutely nothing to do with homosexuality.
I think we’re watching the term “Soc ialist” completely shift its meaning in the United States. When you’ve got 63% of Republicans believing Obama is a soc ialist, its clear they are no longer referring to a “soc ialist” as a person who embraces the populist policies of the 1930s, 40s, 50s, and 60s social reformers.
Literally anything Obama, Reid, or Pelosi suggests gets labeled soc ialist, so now soc ialism can safely be defined as “anything a leading Democrat proposes”. I’d love to see a poll asking “Is Obama a Democrat”, because I suspect we’d see similar numbers.
bemused
If they had to choose one answer to the question “Is Obama sosholist, communist, fascist or marxist?”, they would just take a stab at it. Most of them think they are all the same thing anyway.
Napoleon
@Chris Johnson:
Point taken, though sadly in a lot of ways it has less to do with the right being like the Taliban and more that they country, including large chunks of what had been identified as left leaning before 9/11, seems to think we can do what the British couldn’t do in Afghanistan and Egypt, and the French in Indo-China and Algeria. Today the WaPo ran an column for one of their nominally liberal columnist all but calling for fascist like responses and policies from this country.
The rot runs deep.
Alex S.
The GOP is still in the process of radicalization. The health-care debate pushed a lot of older voters into the republican fold, even more than before. These “get-the-government-out-of-my-medicare”-people are uninformed and don’t want any change at all. Also, Obama doesn’t really want to play the populist card which means that the angry people are more likely to support the GOP in spite of everything that happened. That’s a very toxic mix, but also one that might collapse very quickly (for demographic reasons).
Tonal Crow
bemused
@Zandar:
Excellent answer.
Mayken
@J: I wonder how many of the them can define the term in question! Because as far as I can see they all seem to think it means “anything I am against.”
demo woman
@Zifnab: Just a theory but I think the same percentage would think that he is fascist. Bush was correct when he said is our children learning.
Tonal Crow
Edit once again no workum (when will the site fixes be done?), so, to continue my previous post, the Genesis question does not really ask what Kos presumably wants to ask, which is: “Should public school students be taught that species came into existence in the manner described by the Book of Genesis?”
J
Do you think Republicans would smell a rat if asked whether they think Obama is an agent of ‘Judaeo-Bolshevism’, or would somewhere between 27% and 43% say yes?
JGabriel
The question is very poorly worded.
For example, one could agree that children in American should be taught at some point that the Bible’s Abrahamic creation myth is located in Genesis, as a cultural matter, without agreeing that Creationism should be taught in science classes.
.
freelancer
Don’t know if you guys came across this yesterday, but I could swear these are outtakes from Hardball, especially on culture war bullshit like this:
SMBC Theater – “Both Sides”
Mayken
I’d also be curious about the views of the new “Independents” who are leaving the GOP in droves but still pretty much bring the willfully-ignorant crap.
Paul in KY
I guess I oughta link & read some more, but any poll with less than about 1500 respondents (which, if I remember my Poli Sci makes the +/- go above 2) is not very accurate.
Although, this poll does tend to confirm my opinion that the average Republican is the same kind of arrogant, braying, hypocrite that Jesus railed against.
On the plus side, I won’t have to worry about competing in the job market with their stupid kids (just the Indians, Chinese, Canadians, etc.etc.).
Ash Can
@arguingwithsignposts:
@Sentient Puddle:
The latest polls put Republicans at around 22% of American adults.
Still too many, but thank goodness it’s not more.
Ash Can
@jager: I honestly feel sorry for Republicans such as your business partner. They must feel awfully lonely these days, and with good reason.
Mark S.
I’m dying to know who the people are that think the Republic of Nebraska would be a viable nation.
I would give anything to have David Broder explain how compromise is possible with a group where 42% of them aren’t sure they want to remain in the United States. Doug, does Broder ever do WaPo chats?
Mark S.
@Paul in KY:
At the bottom.
JGabriel
Paul in KY:
The DKos/R2K Poll of Republicans has 2003 respondents from all across the country.
.
Bender
Hey, I saw an Ace of Spades poll that said 69% of Democrats are smelly hippies who smoke crack while having unprotected paedophilic gay sex on red Karl Marx sheets!
Mattsky
From Wikipedia
link
Obama and most of the people here are Socialists. They just don’t like the stigma attached to the word.
geg6
Personally, my take on the Taliban and the American Taliban is that anyone who believes in religion is, by definition, crazy. And this is based on 51 years of experience in dealing with religion, the religious, and anything resembling the magical thinking that leads one to religion.
So yes. The Taliban is batshit insane. As are the Catholic Church, the Church of Latterday Saints, the Orthodox temple on the corner, the hippie down the street with the Buddhist shrine in the living room, and the Scientologists waiting for Xenu. And as is true with all forms of insanity, there are degrees of religious insanity. Islam and Christianity seem to be perfect incubators for the most extreme insanity of all.
Original Lee
@Alex S.: The Family has embraced the GOP as the more disciplined and elitist party. Conservadems are also sought after. I’m re-reading “The Family” this week, and I’m smack in the middle of the chapters covering the 1940s and 1950s. Let’s just say that hearing what you want to hear during prayer time is letting the dial get turned up past 15 at this point, nevermind that the markings on the dial only go to 10 (11 with the professional model).
The Populist
Keep the bible out of public schools UNLESS they plan on teaching a course on world religions that shows them all in a fair minded light, I have no problem with that.
When will these doofuses wake up and realize that SCIENCE made us a great country and when you start dumbing it down by teaching this claptrap, we will be a third world shithole in no time.
Argh…the right are truly insane. I guess I knew that seeing that it’s the party of Brightfart, Newtie and Sarah the quitter.
Ash Can
@Mark S.:
Back when the Texas guv was talking secession, I read an online Dallas (I believe) newspaper article on his boneheaded remarks. The comments were jam-packed with win, and to me the topper was some gal saying that it’d be great for the state to seceed, and it could always join back up with the US when the US came back to its senses and elected another Cheney Admin.
I mean, these people don’t think anything through. I was picturing her sitting at the computer keyboard with her shirt on sideways, her pants on her head, and her toothbrush stuck in her ear.
The Populist
@Paul in KY:
Yes, agreed Paul but I sense this may be VERY representative of the party and it’s faithful. Maybe it’s not 100% of all GOP but it certainly lays out the beliefs of the villagers who thought Bush was the greatest President because he was dumb and we could have him over for bbq ribs and a near beer.
Ash Can
@geg6: Um…yeah.
Bubblegum Tate
@John Arbuthnot Fisher:
This.
Also, with both groups, there’s a certain crazy internal logic. You have to accept a metric fuckton of false premises, hypocrisy, redefinition of terms, applications of the Goldberg Theorem, and an unshakeable belief that when reality and your worldview are at odds with one another it is reality that is wrong, but if you can manage to do all that, what proceeds from there follows a predictable “logical” path.
Mike E
Looks like some people need to do less ‘splainin, more talkin from the gut. We’re fcuked.
The Populist
On the issue of secession…let the south leave with the following stipulations:
Since most of these states rely on the tax dollars of California, New York and many productive northern/midwest states, these southerners must give up all US owned weapons, nukes and anything else that taxpayer dollars have funded.
Any corporation that keeps their HQs in southern states must be taxed at a foreign rate going forward. I do NOT care if they have satellite offices in the remaining USA. They are now foreign corps and should be viewed as such.
Any corporation based in the secession states that has business with the federal government, especially of a sensitive nature, must give back any proprietary data belonging to the USA and will no longer be given contracts going forward.
In the end, these idiots will realize how much they needed the USA more than we needed them.
The Populist
@Mike E:
And how many of these idiots lived a life of sin in their teens, were hippies, etc. Basically a lot of these dumbasses lived the good life for quite some time and now they are angry. Why are they angry? Because they really don’t pay attention to facts, they are easily led astray by the flashy, yet empty, Fox News and have bought into a belief that Dems = anti-white, anti-America.
These older folks who make up the angry white tea bag crowds are going to turn a new generation into something exactly like their parents did when their kids turned into hippies and revolted. This time, though, these kids may not be as easily swayed by greed the way the free love generation was when they found jobs in big business later in life.
Michael
Last time around, the South insisted on taking the USA’s shit with them.
Fuckers steal – that is what they do best. Despite their infantile belief in that filthy, foul bronze age tribal death cult and its Commandments, they steal, they lie and they murder, and do it with a prayer on their lips.
The Populist
@Michael:
Yep, they can’t leave without giving back what’s ours. In a divorce, nobody keeps everything. They get their natural resources, parks, buildings etc that we helped them pay for, we get our proprietary info, military equipment and other things back period.
We can agree to bases in the seceded territory run by AMERICAN troops (at a fee of course) until they can train and build their own infrastructure with THEIR OWN money.
Paul in KY
JGabriel, Mark et. al. Thank you for giving me the number. Y’all are quite kind to a lazy DFH like myself :-)
I will now pronounce the poll as ‘accurate’, ta daaaa!
geg6
@Ash Can:
My take only. I don’t take religion any more seriously than I take an astrology chart. Don’t understand why anyone else would and there is no logic to back up any religious thought. I haven’t seen any scientific studies showing a difference between the visual and auditory hallucinations common in severe psychological diseases and the seeing of and talking to god as purported by the religious, as just one bit of evidence that there is, in reality, no difference. One is no less better off taking the advice of an astrologer for how to live your life than if you take the advice of insulated, self-segregated, forbidden to marry, celibate priests from a church that honors pedophiles and bars women from hierarchy. Almost a lifetime of exploring the subject for me and my conclusion is no different than what I concluded at age 16 and without any of the time and energy I subsequently wasted exploring different religious theologies, their practices, and talking with adherents all up and down the hierarchical ladder.
Others are perfectly free to differ. But in any discussions of those differences, I always want my adversaries to know that I start from a position that they are not completely living in reality and then watch as they usually prove that they don’t know what reality is at all and, most likely, don’t care.
DougJ
@Mark S.
Doug, does Broder ever do WaPo chats?
He used to but it’s been a while.
Tonal Crow
@Mike E:
Yes. Once again, most voters make most decisions using emotional heuristics. It’s faster and easier, probably because it has a far longer evolutionary history. Thus, discourse that talks to the emotions almost always trumps discourse that talks to the logical mind. And it mostly doesn’t matter whether the discourse is true or false. The Bush/Gore quotes in the linked article illustrate these principles well. Gore’s was full of (probably correct) figures but lacked any explicit emotional hook, while Bush’s was filled with lies, but was all emotional hook. You had to think about what Gore said, but (unless you were the uncommon voter who was thinking instead of merely reacting) Bush’s quote went down like a cold beer on a warm day.
It’s passing strange that Democrats — who usually praise science — have almost uniformly refused to use the psychological science behind human decisionmaking, while Republicans — who often deny well-established science — are using it every day.
New Yorker
Despite being an atheist of the Harris/Dawkins/Hitchens mold, I’m going to agree with the earlier comments about how it’s OK to teach Genesis in public schools, so long as it’s not in science class.
I mean, I studied the Bible in a high school literature class, alongside other ancient texts like the Odyssey and the Epic of Gilgamesh. I’m cool with studying the Bible to understand one of the major foundations of western literature.
I’d also be cool with it being studied in a comparative religion class. Genesis can be taught along with the creation myths of Muslims, Hindus, the ancient Greeks, the ancient Egyptians, etc.
Mike E
@Tonal Crow:
I watched Barney Frank on the Rachel show and it illustrated in 20sec what the BBC article wrote about. “Wait, let me back up here and explain something else..” Jeebus, give me a sock full o manure.
licensed to kill time
@New Yorker: Dude, I’d go with it’s turtles all the way down!
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
@The Populist:
On paper I’m all in favor of splitting up the US into a smaller group of nations, but in practice you have to admit that it would turn out like the partition of India and Pakistan only with better production values. Cable TV news producers would have orgasms, but a lot of ordinary folks would end up dead.
Tonal Crow
@licensed to kill time:
An excellent description of intelligent design “theory”.
David in NY
@Napoleon:
You are right that the Orange Satan’s polling is really worth something. And a “Call your damn reps” program over there is probably worth more calls than the same program here. But I don’t read many diaries any more. And I can’t believe some that recommended.
The Populist
@geg6:
I have a simple take on why religion takes hold of people…
It’s all about selfishness. They are scared, scared that when life ends the possibility that this is it freaks them out.
I know they tell you “have faith” but how can somebody have faith in something that seems to sell the idea that murder and wars are okay? How many times do I see a convicted murderer come out and say they changed and have converted to Christ? So basically that person goes to heaven and those who challenge these beliefs are doomed to “hell” even if they lived good lives, helped people and gave???
Argh…religion plays to mankinds ego and selfishness. I believe Jesus Christ lived and was most likely the good man described in the bible. Where it loses me is in the mumbo jumbo preachyness and fairy tales of men conquering giants and angels riding down on horses to kill non believers. To me, it’s an old world book of fairy tales where each story was told over and over, and in the process becoming more mythical before being committed to the written word.
Svensker
@geg6:
Hey, you win before even starting the argument! Great system.
Mike E
@The Populist: Yes. ‘Personal Jesus’ replaces personal responsibility.
cmorenc
@Spotweld
Yes, EXACTLY. It’s the literalists who are by far the most worrisome and problematic to maintaining a sane, civil society in the US.
I could partly agree agree “yes” with the wording given about a question about the truth of the Genesis” account [but NOT with the “it should be taught in public schools part though]. My “yes” comes with the crucially significant qulification that Genesis only represents a metaphorical/allegorical story true in that sense, but not as a factually accurate explaination of the scientific principles or historical events by which God went about creation. It was framed in terms someone with an early bronze-age understanding of the world could grasp, not a factual account. Trying to literally count generations since Adam and Eve in the Bible should be proof enough of this fact (awful lot of people explicitly mentioned within only two or three generations of Adam and Eve, despite only two of their children being mentioned, for but one example).
American Taliban
Somebody finally explains the rationale behind bat$hit crazy $helly Bachmann. Probably would work for the C Street people as well.
Bachmann is being sent to Congress by conservative evangelical “christians” who want to practice what R. J. Rushdoony taught. They want an American government subordinated to their interpretation of the bible. It’s the same sort of government that Iran has, just a different book and different council of Mullahs in charge.
Martin
@arguingwithsignposts:
The crosstabs are all there.
Presumably this applies to either the approximately 20% that strictly self-identify as Republican, or the ~40% that self-identify as Republican or Independent lean Republican. I think it’s probably closer to the former based on the regional distribution (last section on demographics). A lot of the non-southern Republicans have bolted from the party and are hanging out in Independent land until the GOP stops advancing a 100% southern strategy here.
So, let’s call this the crazification cohort. It’s generally distilled wingnut, but still a pretty big influence on the nation. Interestingly, if I’m right, it means that a number of the teabaggers *aren’t* in this group. Not sure how big that group would be, all told.
Martin
Too bad Kos didn’t have some fun with the group. Asking what is the one true Bible is always good for kicks. Democrats forget how easily wedged ideologues are (even when they’re getting their ass kicked on that point by the GOP) and never seem to dig in deep and give it a go. The teabaggers are a well exploitable group, but so are the various fundamentalist groups. Nothing would help take some pressure off of Dems like a good fundie religious war in the US.
Tonal Crow
@The Populist: Religion sells because it talks to the emotions. And talking to the emotions works because emotions are rooted in hundreds of millions of years of evolution. The emotional mind’s ability to make fast decisions has tremendous survival value. It’s all: “Oog see tiger. Oog afraid. Oog run. Oog escape tiger. Oog have much sex and many child.” Think about it this way: Oog is much more likely to survive if he often mistakes waving grass for a tiger, than if he often mistakes a tiger for waving grass.
This kind of emotional thought process didn’t go away when animals developed a cortex. It just got submerged. We ignore its existence at our peril.
licensed to kill time
@Tonal Crow:
In the beginning, there was Turtle and His name was Crush, and He said : First you were all like ‘Whoa!’ and We were all like ‘Whoa!’ and you were all like ‘Whoa!’ and Whoa was The Word, and Turtle saw that it was Good so He made it turtles all the way down. Do not question it.
cmorenc
@arguingwithsignposts:
However, an 80% turnout among a 20% portion of the electorate becomes far more potent when pitted against a 50% turnaout among 30% of the electorate and 15% of the other 50% formally aligned with neither group, if those 15% are split 50-50 that particular election in favor of the inclinations of the 30% group.
Here’s how that breaks down:
(.20 * .8) = .16, or 16%
(.30 *.50) = .15, or 15%
(.50 *.15 *.5) = 3.75% apiece.
The wingnuts win in this scenario, with only 19.5% of the voting population supporting them (versus 18.75% for the nominally larger group) – because they’re much more motivated than either the larger 30% group or the even larger 50% group of independents, and turn out in much higher percentages.
So what happens when the “independent” block of 50% (but who only turn out in 15% proportion) leans toward the 30% instead of splitting equally?
Let’s instead split the 15% of the 50% who actually turn out 55-45 in favor of the preferences of the 30% block. The 30% block’s candidates get 15% + 4.125% = 19.125% of the vote, compared to 16% + 3.375% = 19.375% for the 20% winger block, still a win for the wingnuts!
THIS is why the foremost part of the GOP strategy is to drive down turnout among independents and more weakly aligned dems, and only as a secondary bonus to try to persuade a portion to jump ship and turn out to vote for the GOP candidate. This is exactly the dynamic the GOP is aiming for in the 2010 elections (just like it was in 1994): to increase the sense of cynical futility among the large portion of the voting population not strongly aligned with either party, to weaken the desire of the portion of the democratic base upset with their representatives’ poor performance, and to enrage their base + disaffected independents in to turning out (they only need a relatively small proportion of total indies to pull this off!)
b-psycho
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ:
WOW they cum hard these days, huh?
/deliberatelybadjoke
oscarbob
Looking at these poll numbers is actually scary. I would love to have the village explain the possible areas of “bipartisanship” available within the framework of the belief system exhibited by these responses. I remember reading a great quote about bipartisanship between the rational and the batshit insane, and imagine my surprise when the google informed me that it was our very own shoulder boy!
https://balloon-juice.com/?p=16770 Money qoute
“I really don’t understand how bipartisanship is ever going to work when one of the parties is insane. Imagine trying to negotiate an agreement on dinner plans with your date, and you suggest Italian and she states her preference would be a meal of tire rims and anthrax. If you can figure out a way to split the difference there and find a meal you will both enjoy, you can probably figure out how bipartisanship is going to work the next few years.” Still kills me.
batgirl
@cmorenc: There is no logic here. A big polling group (in anyone can tell me which, I forgot) just came out with a bunch of questions about religion, evolution and politics and found a very large majority of Republicans believe in creationism. However, the also found that some of these people gave answers that conflict — answering that they believe the earth was created in 7 days 10,000 years ago AND saying yes to the earth being billions of years old.
I suppose one could argue about the questions. I would argue about the stupidity and the ability for humans to hold two contradictory ideas in their head at the same time without a brain freeze.
Jerry 101
@bemused:
Is Obama a:
a. so-shole-ist
b. communist
c. facist
d. national so-shole-ist (nazi)
e. some/all of the above
f. other/none of the above
Tonal Crow
@batgirl:
We need to take advantage of these attributes, rather than merely bemoaning them. We need to tell stories that reach voters’ emotions, rather than reciting facts that attempt (mostly without success) to reach their rational minds. Thus, for example, “My budget will reduce projected out-year deficits by 3% of GDP” [1] has to become “I’m ensuring America’s prosperity by limiting our debt.”
[1] I made up that “quote”, but much of what Obama and his spokespeople say has similar (= no) emotional content.
Tiparillo
While I think there is a benefit in bringing this craziness to light, I find the title, American Taliban, as annoying as DPL’s Liberal Fascist.
arguingwithsignposts
Top line figures from the U.S. Census:
217.8 million adults (18+)
Therefore, there are ~43.56 million GOP self-identified
Therefore:
27.4 million adults thing BHO is a soc-alist
33.5 million think students should be taught genesis.
etc.
That’s still a lot of idiots, but it’s more accurate than using percentages for a population that is math stupid. Pie charts would be even better.
arguingwithsignposts
Top line figures from the U.S. Census:
217.8 million adults (18+)
Therefore, there are ~43.56 million GOP self-identified
Therefore:
27.4 million adults thing BHO is a soc-alist
33.5 million think students should be taught genesis.
etc.
That’s still a lot of idiots, but it’s more accurate than using percentages for a population that is math stupid. Pie charts would be even better.
arguingwithsignposts
@cmorenc:
I am not arguing about turnout in an election. What I’m pointing out is that polls that only present percentages skew the *appearance* of how much crazy is out there.
I would never say to *ignore* the turnout percentages (which, again, should be shown in a way that is simpler to understand than the percentages.*
Of course, expecting the innumerate MSM to do so is probably expecting too much.
The Populist
@American Taliban:
Rushdoony…there’s a name I haven’t heard in a while. Anybody know what Gary North is up to?
xian
@Mattsky:
yeah, I hear that a lot around here
(better trolls please)
binzinerator
@licensed to kill time:
Riiiighteous!
liberty60
@Bender:
My personal life is none of your business.
The Populist
@Mattsky:
Ahhh, prove it. I own a business, I make profit and I most likely donate money to help the homeless like you.
I love you people, I really do. You can sum up intelligent discourse, lump people all together and use a dictionary to explain who we supposedly are. Wanna talk about what S-lism really is? Your buds on the right…they hate small business, love mega corps and mega churches. Seems soshilist to me.
Nellcote
linky
Nellcote
FYWP!
Mattsky
xian and The Populist don’t run away from who you are. Embrace it. Why lie about it? You know what you are. You know what you want.
carolatl
@New Yorker: Do you really think Christian fundamentalists would allow the Genesis story to be presented as just another “creation myth?” No, because the Genesis story is the truth!
The Populist
@Mattsky:
Ahhh, check out the cute troll. Note to self: Do not feed the trolls who have zero concept of what they are talking about.
Mattsky
The Populist are you a fake or another rube? Obama and the far left are Socialists. Why pretend other wise.
priscianus jr
I don’t think I’m going to make myself very popular with this thread, but I’m going to tell you how I see it.
The pro-bible people don’t want to hear this any more than the anti-bible people, but the Genesis story IS the truth. It’s just a different kind of truth. In the days when the bible originated, that was the only kind of truth they knew. Since then it’s kept on getting more and more layers of meaning. Those who read Genesis “literally” or “scientifically,” whether you’re fer it or agin it, are misreading it. You have to read it culturally, that is, you have to have an identification with the culture, or it just doesn’t mean anything. It’s a very big culture and there are lots of ways of identifying with it, but if you don’t have one, and you don’t want one, then sure, the bible means nothing.
You can call it “literature,” but that strikes me as a cop-out. It’s more than just literature.
To those who say the bible is “just” a myth no different from any other myth, you’re denying American history and you’re denying American culture. No, America is NOT a “Christian” nation, but the bible, along with the Constitution, is at the heart of American culture. I’m sorry to say this, but that denial is a big part of why Democrats lose elections they ought to win.
Incidentally, black people mainly get this, because black culture is deeply identified with the bible.
Karen
The new definitions of Communist and Socialist are many, it just depends on context.
1. Used to be called Liberal but the word lost its negative factor.
2. When used as an adjective to describe Obama, instead of the N word.See “Black Hitler,” “Odummy,” etc.
3. Anything relating to poor people getting something they don’t deserve, ie: health care, WIC, etc. Usually it doesn’t apply to white people.
4. Anyone who is not outwardly negative about Obama. See “RINO”, “Obot,” etc.
5. Part of the US Government though surprisingly, not Medicare or Social Security.
6. Anything that is consumer friendly which means it’s hostile for business. See “Bank Fees”
7. Taxes
BruinKid
@Paul in KY: Um, no. Generally polls should have a 3.5% margin of error or better, meaning they should interview at least 784 people. 1,000 in the poll drops the margin of error to under 3.1%, 1,500 gives you about a 2.5% margin of error, and DailyKos’s has a tiny 2.2% margin of error.
Look at just about any poll out there, it’s usually 1,000 people or less. This is considered “good enough” by most standards.
kayliee
Yeah, and I’m sure a koskids poll is totally unbiased and has no axe to gride. I mean, it’s not like it’s patron is flogging a book based on the fact the Right is loony, right? oh… wait.
Paul in KY
Bruinkid, if you’re a sadsack polling dept or Fox News or some other BS agency, you have a poll with under 1500 or so.
A legit, academic, accurate poll should not be under 1500 or 2000 or whatever figure it is that gives you the +/- 2.
IMO, any poll with a +/- over 2 is not accurate.