I can’t speak for anyone else on the front page, but I just don’t find the question of blame very interesting. Maybe someone did contribute to this present clusterf*ck more than someone else; if so I don’t really know or particularly care. It feels like a waste of time to piss on him or her or them while the game has minutes on the clock.
House Dems can still pass the Senate bill, and then we’ll have a HCR win with some shitty elements that Congress can fix later. Senate Dems can pass a fix through reconciliation and we will have something close to a complete win. It has to happen now, before campaign season heats up and Democrats commit themselves to something even stupider than changing the subject (e.g., the Snowe option).
I started with the House because (1) everything starts with the House passing the Senate’s shit-and-banana sandwich, and (2) the House responds to day-to-day constituent demands more than any other branch of government. Framers meant to insulate the Senate and especially the White House from quotidian voter angst, and for the most part their system works. My plan morphed when I understood that the House and Senate were standing around like a married couple in a Noel Coward play, neither willing to act unless the other makes the first move. So I pushed for peeps to call their Senators as well. Hard as it can be to move members of that august body, we don’t need to swing very many wavering Senators to get this done.
All along I figured that Obama had some sort of preferred plan that he would reveal in due time. Thus part of my urgency – if pressure from us and others could get the House to commit before Obama’s SOTU then events would more or less compel the White House to come along even if he prefers some milquetoast fail plan. Now I hear via Ezra that Obama still has no idea what to do, so I decide that the small (tiny) but real chance of making a difference is worth potentially wasted time and long distance fees.
None of this apportions any blame at all. I certainly don’t blame the House for getting stuck with the Senate’s malnourished bill. I just think that calling them would do the most good. Same with Senators wavering over reconciliation. Ditto for the White House. Historians (and virtually every other blogger on the internet) will work out who gets to own this colossal disaster. Right now I honestly don’t care. As long as it’s not over, and as long as we still live in a participatory democracy, I just want to do what works.
Whom should you bother? You have my thinking; make up your own mind. Then pick up a phone and call.
Jamie
well Given our broken system we’re pretty much fucked no matter what the powers that be try to do.
kindness
If only Al Franken was Majority Leader. That’d piss Glenn Beck & Phaux news off & we might actually get somewhere legislativly.
Violet
Damn right. Calling our Representatives, Senators and the White House are what we can do right now. I want my voice heard. By golly, they’re going to hear it.
DougJ
I agree about blame to some extent. Although I don’t like it when comes to “they all suck” either.
aimai
I’m not interested in “the blame game” but to the extent that the world isn’t really going to end tomorrow, whether or not the Dems pass Health Care Reform, taking a good hard squint at how we got to this pass isn’t really a form of self indulgence. Its just part of the stock taking that every political actor has to do, every now and then, to figure out where to put their energies and their time and their phone calls.
I mean, right now its clear (to me at any rate) that I should continue to do what I’ve done right the way along: call my Senator (s) and my Reps and the DNC, the DCCC, the DSCC and tell them that I want progressive legislation passed, and that my money and time are going to go to them when they do so and not at other times. Ditto Obama. I’m calling and pushing on Health Care because I think we can still get this thing passed, and its important.
But afterwards? I’m not interested in looking for a single actor to blame. But I’m damned sure interested in figuring out why such a promising team of political actors and interest groups fucked up this multi car funeral.
aimai
Common Sense
@kindness:
I would take losing Nevada if we got Franken in return.
I just called my congressman, the estimable Sheila Jackson Lee. Not sure what good it did. A very friendly assistant told me that she has no opinion on furture course of action. I’m not sure what good calling my Senators will do. Hutchison has completely abandoned any sense of Senatorial decorum and is trying to outflank secessionist Rick Perry from the right in her gubernatorial race. Cornyn is a wingnut’s wingnut.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@kindness: I was just thinking what a shame it is that conversation from Dems is dominated by the ConservaDems–Bayh, Lincoln, Landriue (Mark Pryor is oddly silent, maybe I should look that horse in the mouth). I’m sure that’s part of a strategy, probably a smart one, to keep from sending them and Lieberman and Nelson into even further tizzies. But it’s a damn shame in any case.
The Pale Scot
Anyone notice that TAC was hacked by… a pro-Palestinian blogger. The stupid; it burns.
http://conservativetimes.org/?p=4352
Since computers are not mentioned in the bible or the koran, shouldn’t the devout avoid these Satanic instruments of technology?
How do you ship a pair of clown shoes thru the Israel blockade?
Sentient Puddle
@DougJ:
This too.
In my mind, if you’re trying to assign blame, you’re basically playing the game by wishing you had been dealt a better hand. Ditto for saying “they all suck.” And same for plenty of other scenarios that spring to mind.
So things could have been played out differently to make the current situation better. Too fucking bad. Those things didn’t happen. Until someone creates a time machine, we gotta play the goddamn game with what we have.
mcc
The way I look at it is:
Blame is uninteresting because it only tells us about the past. We can’t change the past. Blaming someone for a past mistake does very little to tell us what to do in future.
The Senate is to blame for the situation we find ourselves in. But the Senate is much less important to changing the situation we are in. Now that we are in this situation, it is the House whose responsibility it is to get us out of it. The Senate is only important to the extent it can do something to convince the House to accept that responsibility.
Responsibility, I think, is a more interesting thing than blame.
And by the way: I still reject the idea the Senate bill is a “shit sandwich” or even bad. Not only is the Senate bill perfectly fine. The Senate bill is better than the House bill. The House bill had some nice candy for me as a progressive, and it also had the largest restriction on private abortion since Roe V Wade. There are definitely things worth fixing in the Senate bill. But the unmodified Senate, unlike the unmodified House bill, at least is better than passing nothing.
Chuck
I think “Shit And Banana Sandwich” needs to become a tag.
And don’t clutch your pearls, this place is still the #1 google hit for “skull fuck a kitten”.
PeakVT
Maybe someone did contribute to this present clusterf*ck more than someone else; if so I don’t really know or particularly care.
Caring for the purposes of venting or exacting revenge isn’t terribly productive. But if the blameworthy individual(s) are still blocking progress, it’s pretty useful to know who they are.
PS: Just called Welch’s DC office. His staff is still giving the “up to the leadership” line.
Tomlinson
@mcc:
This. Exactly this.
I blame the Senate for where we are today. But if we do not have HCR, I’m blaming the house. They have a perfectly good HCR bill they can pass at will. It’s a fine bill. Pass it.
I also blame Obama for sitting around when his party so desperately needs leadership.
DougJ
Blame is uninteresting because it only tells us about the past. We can’t change the past. Blaming someone for a past mistake does very little to tell us what to do in future.
Yes and no. I think that it is right, for example, that people blame Martha Coakley and her staff for her campaign in MA because it is important that people not follow their strategy — if that word applies here — again.
When it comes to campaign losses, I’m all for blame.
But I think when it comes to process, it’s not clear that blaming helps much with the future.
Zifnab
At some point, you have to identify where the problem lies. And to be fair, Tim, you’ve done a good job of identifying where the roadblocks are.
When you started this campaign, you targeted the House, because they were at the bottom of the shit list. If they didn’t want to pass the Senate Bill, it was dead. So putting pressure on them to move somewhere rather than just sitting with thumbs up butts made a great deal of sense.
Once a plan formed – HCR with rider passed via Reconciliation – then it was on to prodding the Senate, because a House deal that didn’t have the Senate on board was no deal at all.
Finally, you’re looking at the President, because he’s the one giving the SOTU and – ultimately – the guy in the driver’s seat of the clown car we call government.
Each time you targeted the roadblock and each time you charged at it with your spork and hammer. And we followed with you.
And a large part of this momentum came from identifying who was “to blame” and where pressure needed to be applied.
That’s not nothing.
The difference between you and a lot of generic internet commentators is that you rallied the troops rather than just serving up the whine and cheese.
aimai
Maybe its a difference in terminology but I don’t see looking at the situation to see what we could do differently, next time, as voters or activists or party members or whatever as “blaming” in any sense.
Something went very badly wrong with the way the Democrats pursued a signature piece of legislation–we ought not to have to be besieging our own representatives to pass their own bill. I don’t object to doing it. But I think it reflects a weird loss of spine, or set of miscalculations, on the part of all the major players in crafting this legislation. And I don’t think the voters or the activists are major players, btw.
I don’t get the idea that looking backwards or trying to figure out where pivotal people, or points, or pieces went wrong is somehow meaning that we aren’t “playing the game” with what we have. If the analogy is to a game at all don’t athletes look at strategy, tactics, and personell all the time when they are trying to figure out how to win the next game? I mean, sure, just crying or wailing or saying “rahm or whoever sucks” is a waste of time. But looking hard at the forces, people, decisions that screwed up this legislation? That’s not going to be time wasted if it helps the democratic leadership figure out how to act like a god damned party with party goals.
aimai
General Winfield Stuck
I really like this post from you TimF. It is cold hard facts of life. The table is set for this to get done, and while it is true that the closer we get to Nov it will get harder to do. But there is some time for CC’rs to do some soul searching, which for them always comes out at the same place in situations like this, which is how will it effect my reelection, and or how will my constituents view me on what path I choose. This is much more poignant with the House that has a fixed number of voters out of around 600 K constituents each, and they are the ones here on the chopping block as all of them must run this cycle, or at least more so than the senate with only a third of them up for reelection this year.
And the ball is also in their court, to either pass the senate bill without dem senators IOU’s for a fix, or not. The only thing Obama can do is remind them what is at stake, which is their majorities and their gavels and the attendant power that comes from that, and I bet he and the WH are doing just that as we speak behind the scenes. Obama could spank them in public, but that would add resentment to the mix and that rarely works with democrats to motivate them.
Give them some time with continued prodding from their personal voters and I think they will eventually bite the bullet because not doing so will cause them more pain for a longer period of time than embracing failure. Blame at this point is beside the point and counterproductive.
Sentient Puddle
Y’know, one small point. If you’re going to say in some capacity or another that you’re not interested in blame, can you kindly not dole out blame in the same damn post? It sure makes it look like you don’t have the ideas straight in your head.
ellaesther
That’s the ticket, right there.
I’m underemployed this week, and I just thought, holy hell. I can obsess about this and maybe make a difference — or not. Next week, knowing that I did the former will matter, even if it doesn’t work.
MaximusNYC
I just don’t find the question of blame very interesting.
Agreed. I mean, it’s useful in terms of determining who you can and can’t rely on in the future. But for the moment we’re in right now, it’s about who can put HCR over the finish line, not who did what up until now.
That’s why I was so disappointed that Yvette Clarke and Anthony Weiner, at their town hall meeting in Brooklyn last Saturday, spent so much time blaming 1) the Senate, 2) Obama, and 3) the Democratic base for the fact that HCR hasn’t turned out better.
The House Dems really need to move past their sense of grievance, and look at the big picture. That’s not to say that they don’t have legitimate reasons for being aggrieved — but they shouldn’t let all of that stop them from taking constructive action now.
Napoleon
OT but K-Thug is now taking his cues from DougJ. He has a post up whose title derives from a Talking Heads’ song.
Corner Stone
@Common Sense:
Tell me about it. Except you at least have a chance with SJL. I have Olson who is doing his damndest to earn his wingnut badge in his first term.
El Tiburon
Yeah, pretty fucking easy. Pass the bill with some shitty elements and our democratic Einsteins in Congress will fix it later.
Easy as pie, right?
Bullshit. Wake up and join the party, pal. It is over. All you are clinging to is a hollow, Pyrrhic victory that will cause insurance stocks to skyrocket while pissing a majority of Americans off. Do you really think anything will be fixed? God, I wish I had your rose-colored glasses.
This is not healthcare reform. Not in the slightest. This is a big-pile of steamy bullshit. I was on the fence, but I now believe Hamsher, et al are correct.
I believe now all you are doing is a Pavlovian response: PASS THE BILL (drool, slobber, drool).
Napoleon
@MaximusNYC:
Seriously? Talk about f—ing idiots. 1) this is a case of you never blame the customer (ie, the customer is always right); and 2) regardless of 1 the voters did what there job was in the HCR scheme of things which were to send those 2 to Congress to get it done. They were hired by the voters to pass HCR.
DougJ
OT but K-Thug is now taking his cues from DougJ. He has a post up whose title derives from a Talking Heads’ song.
Wait til you read the anti-Jon Stewart piece he has cued up. He hates that guy!
PeakVT
@aimai: Perhaps the word culpable should be substituted for blame in this conversation.
Tazistan Jen
Tim, I want to start by saying that because of you I called my Rep, visited one Senator’s office yesterday, and called the President. If you hadn’t done this I probably would have just emailed as usual. So, go you.
My Rep, Polis, is leading an effort to PTDB and get back the public option in reconciliation. So my call at least partly convinced him. :-)
On blame – yeah, later we need to figure how what went wrong and plan strategy better next time. I think we’ll find it is the filibuster that has to change. But for now, PTDB.
jenniebee
@Chuck: it’s #’s 1 and 2 on Bing.
BJ: your source for all your kitten skull-fucking needs.
edmund dantes
OT — Holy fucking shit. This was boned from the beginning.
I’ll give him one thing. He knows how the game is played.
gex
@The Pale Scot: You know someone at TAC was on the network searching for the sickest porn ever and just infected the network. They wish Palestinians wanted to hack them.
General Winfield Stuck
@edmund dantes: The list is short on who screwed up this legislation, and Nelson, Lieberman, and maybe three or four other dem senators and all of the wingnut ones top it and complete it IMO. The notion that Rahm wanted it to fail, or even Obama, as I read in other places and sometimes here is laughable fiction. Ditto for swaying Lieberman who is beyond the reach of the DNC and broader dem party power brokers, including Obama.
Common Sense
@Corner Stone:
Ya know, Perry was obviously no surprise — he’s actually been a little more pro-policy than I expected him to be — but there was a time when I actually thought KBH was a moderate. I’m just astonished watching her frantically run away from her multi decade senatorial career. Who the hell does she think is buying this?
Gonna be fun when Bill wins.
Houstonian
Called Sheila Jackson Lee’s office again today. Her intern said they’d been getting a lot of calls in support of passing the Senate bill and dealing with other issues in reconciliation.
First he said they’d been getting a lot of calls, just in general. I asked if the calls were for or against and he said they as I mentioned above.
Seems encouraging that there are a lot of people calling supporting it.
No other news. Intern said there should be an update “soon.” I asked when “soon” was. Intern said he didn’t know.
gogol's wife
@Zifnab:
Agreed. Mine is not a substantive comment, but “adding a voice,” like calling one’s reps.
Napoleon
@edmund dantes:
Link?
joe in oklahoma
@ Jim, Foolish Literalist
is there a strategy? really?
jenniebee
@Napoleon: interesting on the K-thug, his commenters are coming at him for giving the “Republican talking point” that Obama is a centrist. Which is I suppose true, if “centrist” is the average of the uncontrovertably Republican talking points that Obama is a Socialist and a Nazi. Also apparently, bringing up the obvious – that Obama is exactly the sort of thoughtful center-right pol we all wish the Republican party were full of today instead of the barking mad Republican party we have with positions that have no other explanation than being born from a mating of religious ignorance and geriatric constipation – is “bailing on him.”
Lord, Help me Jesus…
Violet
OT – Is there an update on John Cole today? Hope he’s doing okay.
kay
@edmund dantes:
Well, maybe. I think the conservative Democrats are doing themselves no favors going out and talking about their leverage and power plays.
The general public were completely horrified watching these this last year, and I was too. The coyness and bickering and incredible glacial pace was just appalling.
He may think he’s standing up for one or another constituency, but to me it comes off as self-interest and self-regard.
The silver lining may be Leiberman. I think people may have finally, finally taken his measure, and seen the real person.
rootless_e
WH switchboard is busy
Corner Stone
@edmund dantes: God in Heaven.
I hoped that quote was from The Onion but I found it at LifeSiteNews
When you have time please read the whole thing.
I’m not a violent person but someone needs to introduce Senator Nelson to bad things for his personage.
Napoleon
@Violet:
He just posted a thread.
edmund dantes
@Napoleon: Sorry about that. I forgot to include when I was fixing my block quotes.
Here you go.
Zifnab
@aimai:
Here, I think you’re mistaken – at least to a degree. Bush didn’t have his entire caucus behind him when he was passing his first round of tax cuts. DeLay had to twist arms well into the night to get Medicare Plan D passed, and even then there were a fair number of defectors. The Social Security Privatization never got off the ground. Immigration Reform died when the nativist wing of the GOP went AWOL.
Whipping your own caucus is totally normal. There are a lot of legislative items that folks on the edges of the issue simply won’t support – sometimes because they cross some personal or regional line, sometimes because they don’t go far enough – and you need leaders and grassroots and business interests and lobbyists to step in and lean hard on the fence-sitters and the opposition within the party.
This is a huge bill that tackles a trillion dollar industry, cuts deep into ideological territory, and can make or break a number of elections. And we’re further along than any President who has tackled health care since LBJ. :-p Again, that’s not nothing.
(Unless the bill fails. Then it might be nothing.)
geg6
@Zifnab:
This. Hell yes, this.
It is very, very important to look at how things like this clusterfuck happen. Not so much for assigning “blame,” meaning that we have a villain, but in assigning “blame,” meaning we know which part is most dysfunctional for what we want to get done.
Tim did exactly that and in exactly the right way. And BJ, being the crazy commentariat that it is, took the baton and ran with it.
Called the WH (again) today. Was on hold for a while, but not all that long, considering. Marched with signs to prod my senators yesterday. And Altmire’s office gets a phone call and an email every day. In fact, I think I’ll continue calling his office regularly after this. He’s such a smarmy piece of Blue Dog shit and his former health insurance/giant hospital system lobbying background simply infuriates me. Plus, I think it irritates him because he’s so used to dealing with so many senior citizens and working class idiots who know little to nothing about most issues that having someone like me questioning him on substance and refusing to take his easy answers at face value is probably a little infuriating. Not to mention the fact that he and his minions have now figured out they HAVE to listen and be nice to me as they have finally figured out that my name is on their volunteer and donor list, one of the earliest ones, in fact. Keep ’em on their toes, I always say.
Corner Stone
@Napoleon: They’ve got a wrap up at TPM but the whole thing is linked to in their article.
Sentient Puddle
I missed this one earlier, but it’s an important point.
@Zifnab: Very good post, though there is one thing that I think needs a better distinction:
I would not use the word “blame” here. “Blame” implies an action in the past. What Tim is doing isn’t pointing out specific actions that could have been done in the past, but rather specific actions that can be done right now.
Otherwise, what you said is spot on. What Tim has done is infinitely more useful than people complaining about how Coakley should have run a better campaign (and these are the complaints I have the most sympathy for).
Napoleon
@Corner Stone:
Holy cow. This is why the “filibuster” 60 vote rule has to go with the new Congress next year.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
@aimai:
I agree with aimai. We do need to look backwards and figure out what went wrong. But at the same time we need to do so while guarding against a temptation which can make that activity counterproductive, which is excessively moralizing about the actors and outcomes and letting that become the focus. Saying something happened because person X or group Y is evil may be emotionally satisfying but it is bad forensic analysis because it doesn’t get us any closer to a solution in the future.
Corner Stone
@Zifnab:
One of the better nights I can remember was when Bush was giving a SOTU and he mentioned SS Reform failing (or something about SS not being touched) and the whole D side and caucus stood up and applauded while Bush just looked them over with a half grin / half grimace.
Just beautiful.
Tsulagi
Yeah, better hope Snowe doesn’t issue some statement like she may be open to considering reconciliation. That happens, game over. Dems would once again wait for Mount Olympia to move before they do.
joe in oklahoma
“All along I figured that Obama had some sort of preferred plan that he would reveal in due time.”
mmmmm… maybe THIS is the plan??
http://www.politico.com/blogs/glennthrush/0110/Berry_Obama_said_big_difference_between_10_and_94_is_me.html
Fitzwili
Just called Senator McCaskill’s Office – talked to a very sympathetic male staffer who seemed to take notice when I asked him why Bernake is being pushed through on reconciliation but that health care was not. I told him that this was just one more example of the Democrats working hard to fufull the wishes of Wallstreet- while screwing over the middle class. Wallstreet had gotten everything – the middle class nothing – and that was not what I had in mind when I worked so hard to elect Democrats to office. Senators are scared of populism- maybe this framing can budge McCaskill.
Her links on her website are wonky- here is her phone number:
(202) 224-6154
jenniebee
@General Winfield Stuck: wanted it to fail? no, of course not. He was perfectly willing to let Congress put something together and sign whatever they came up with into law. I think Obama simply assumed that with a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate and a huge majority in the house, the bill would take care of itself. And since the Health Care issue was something that he was forced to adopt on the campaign trail, I don’t see it as something that was one of his top priorities.
If we get HCR, it won’t be in spite of Obama, but it won’t be because of him either. If we can lay it at any one person’s feet it belong’s at George W. Bush’s actually, for being such a remarkably shitty president that he delivered his opposition a majority too big to excuse for inaction.
kay
@joe in oklahoma:
I don’t know, but it’s interesting. So he was pushing Blue Dogs to back health care? And they were scared of repeating ’94?
That guy is retiring, so it doesn’t matter, but isn’t he as much as making an admission that he held that seat but didn’t intend to do anything with it?
He’s not a great loss. He was afraid to legislate?
tomvox1
The quarterback gets the blame (and the credit), like it or not. Jim Kelly and Dan Marino are “losers” because they didn’t win the Big One, even though they won a ton of other big games. If credible HCR doesn’t pass, then the Big O will also be a “loser” because it was his goddamn signature issue. Unfair perhaps, but that’s the way it works in our society, no ifs, ands or buts.
The disturbing pattern of passivity, retreat and, worse, the willingness to take seriously the preposterous priorities of the 20-percenters strongly indicate that Obama does not seem to understand this paradigm, i.e. leaders give it their all to WIN and second place is nowhere near good enough. Frankly, it is giving me some serious second thoughts about the man. I spent a lot of time bashing the Firebaggers but I am afraid the meme that “Obama Is A Big Talking Pussy Who Can Be Repeatedly Rolled” may be becoming reality before our very eyes.
I am still hopeful but am also worried that we have elected another semi-capable politician, rather than the transformative leader that was so desperately needed, a guy who can get us to the playoffs but not good enough to lead his team to the promised land.
Napoleon
@Corner Stone:
To echo a poster at TPM, if the Nelson interview doesn’t snap anyone who thinks they could kill the bill now and get a better one next year, or shove the PO though in a reconciliation fix bill out of the fantasy land they live in nothing will.
anticontrarian
@Sentient Puddle:
Hear fucking hear.
The blame game is fun and all, but it’s really more about therapy than fighting for what you want and believe in, and as I’ve said many times over at my own blog, politics ain’t therapy. There are real stakes to this game, and losing while making some cathartic point is still losing, which means that what you want and what you believe in doesn’t get made to happen.
Just ask those folks in Florida that voted Nader in 2000. Did they get what they wanted? I bet not. But they sure made a point, by golly. Whatever it was.
inkadu
This is why I read.
Tomlinson
@Napoleon:
Fantasyland, no doubt. But that’s been clear for a while, so I’m not thinking anything will change.
Napoleon
@Tomlinson:
You have a point. They are long past the point where they would feel embarrassed parading around in public wearing their tin foil hats.
aimai
But, Zifnab, that’s the whole point. Has the leadership really whipped this baby? I haven’t seen it. Sure, Bush didn’t get a few things–but they were really bad things. Getting rid of social security was something that would have been horrendously bad for the majority of Republicans as well as Democrats and his actual caucus could see that. What’s the thing about healthcare reform that is holding *the god damned democrats* back from doing the right thing and passing something? Seriously. Look at my Rep capuano. He wants health care reform. In fact, he wants good health care reform. The only thing thats holding back *his vote* now, on the barrelhead, for the Senate bill is that the entire caucus doesn’t trust the Senate, and rightly so. Because they can’t trust the Senate to choose a better bill, or compromise with the house. They aren’t on the same page. I totally understand the argument that some votes are too hard for members to take, too unpopular or whatever. But health care reform isn’t supposed to have been one of those votes. As a party we wanted it (supposedly). But the poison pill amendments, like stupak, or the mandates w/out public option were all slid in there on the grounds that compromise would enable the bill to get through both houses and to the president’s desk. Its weird to me (I mean, I see how it happened but its politically very bizarre to watch) that the Democrats continue to act as though each can, individually, benefit if the bill goes down in flames. Its a democratic initiative. If it fails the whole caucus takes it in the neck as a governing party. Individual dems may do fine–I get that Nelson, Bayh, or even the progressive reps in the house–will individually do fine. And I get that they are all just selfish and short sighted enough to have their own re-elections as their only mode of calculation. But I don’t get why the major party organs from the DSCC to the DCCC and the DNC and the President and Reid and Pelosi can’t make them vote for the damn thing in the short term for the sake of the party as a whole. Most of them lose nothing by voting for it.
aimai
mcc
But, Zifnab, that’s the whole point. Has the leadership really whipped this baby?
Nope. MoveOn is whipping, like two blogs are whipping. The whip we’re doing here, we’re getting several times more reps telling us “I”m waiting for Nancy Pelosi to tell me what to do” than we’re getting reps saying either “support” or “not support”.
I think it’s reasonable to allow the leadership until the State of the Union speech tonight to commit to a strategy. If they don’t either roll out a strategy or a timeline for such (“we will wait for Scott Brown to be seated, we will try to pass through something like conference, if that doesn’t work we will explore other avenues like passing the health care bill”) then there is no excuse for continuing to sit this one out.
or the mandates w/out public option were all slid in there on the grounds that compromise would enable the bill to get through both houses and to the president’s desk
So, this is just not why this happened. Mandates were put in because Ted Kennedy and other liberals demanded it. Mandates were never specifically linked to the public option except in the minds of bloggers. Mandates were considered the “progressive” position until like December of last year.
Tomlinson
That’s what they do not seem to have internalized. Have they even gamed this out?
1. HCR fails. They try to blame the republicans, but the public sees a HUGE majority and that the house and senate passed bills and then it failed due to dem “squabbling.” That’s bad.
2. Health care prices keep going up.
3. Public DEMANDS action.
4. Republicans run on HCR. Dems can counter this…how? “We’ll pass it this time? We really mean it this time. No foolin’, trust us this time?” Can’t wait to see this.
5. Republicans pass..something…probably pretty damn limited but it takes away the immediate pain. They are the heroes.
It’s like the dems think they can fail at this. They don’t need Obama, they need Yoda. Do or Do Not. There is No Try. Well, they are well into try already, so DO NOT is no longer an option. That only leaves DO.
And now they are thinking that they will just “take a breather”?
What. The. Fuck.
tim
Well, now I know for sure that Tim F. is an idiot or a Villager Wannabe-poser, or both:
Yes, that is exactly the Village philosophy: no matter how big the fuck up, no matter how deep the deception and mendacity, God forbid anyone be assigned “blame.” Jezus.
Without “blame,” otherwise known as responsibility, how the hell is anyone to know who to trust, who has credibility and who does not, who talks the talk but aborts the walk?
So yeah, make those calls, put out that effort, do something to make yourself feel like any of it makes a difference; never mind that it is largely in vain. Because to admit that would, you know, involve blaming someone, which inside the Beltway, is just so uncool and unserious.
I think Tim F. is ready to move into government service in Washington, or as a Democratic Party operative.
Corner Stone
OT but H/T through Atrios:
Pretty sure this will never go wrong. Because if the US citizen is on the JSOC’s President approved list then obviously he or she is guilty.
ETA – the strike was authorized by the President it doesn’t specifically say the President has authorized and approved of the JSOC’s list.
flounder
@ edmund dante I have been thinking that one of the unintended consequences of the proclamations by Nelson, Bayh, Lincoln, etc. that they considered the cloture votes more important than the final vote is it put their usual hostage taking technique way further out in the spotlight than it usually is. And I imagine they were all patting themselves on the back at how important a light it cast them in:
“Heh, heh, heh, wait til the boys back in Omaha see how much pork I pulled over on the country.”
Instead people were horrified at the way these clowns operate. I think that instead of trying to jostle their way into position of being the 60th vote on something, I suspect we will see a rush to be the 58th or 55th.
P.S. I called Harry Reid and the White House today. The White House person seemed very taken back by my contention that Obama wasn’t leading the way for this health care bill to get done. She said that Congress does its own thing. I said I know, and that got us into this mess, so Obama saying he supports one way out can’t hurt. That tells me she hasn’t heard the same complaint from very many people. Please call.
LarsThorwald
Pitch perfect.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
@Tomlinson:
Aww crap. Follow that analogy a little bit further and it means our health care X-wing fighter is going to go “glub, glub” as it sinks back into the swamp, and the blogs will sit here helplessly making R2D2 beeping and chirping noises as it disappears.
Corner Stone
@flounder:
Hopefully because people realized that one buffoon who represents like 1.5% of the population (or whatever) can play coy with the whole process in order to ram his bucket list down the other 98%’s throat.
anticontrarian
@tim:
Hey man. That’s a cheap shot, and a willful misreading of what’s going on here. But it did sound like your bitching made you feel better. So good for you.
rootless_e
@Corner Stone: Oh Golly! Obama is authorizing attacks on Al Qaeda! If I’d known he was not going to send them candy and ask to work it out via aura exchanges helped with herbal tea infusions, I never would have supported him. My past lives are even angry.
Corner Stone
@Corner Stone: Can you imagine the absolute fucking freakout if Coakley had won that Senate race, the House and Senate bills were worked out and it went back to the Senate for their 60 vote revote and Nelson had *actually* pulled this?
It would’ve been like 9-11 times a thousand. Basically all the worst parts of the bible.
I can’t begin to see the heads exploding across the percentage of the D populace that is semi-aware of politics.
Holy Balls that would’ve been fucking epic.
Corner Stone
@rootless_e: Yeah, I knew I’d get a few clueless automatons piping up on that one.
But hey, if it doesn’t bother you that it’s ok to kill US citizens with no due process there’s not much I can say to you.
I mean for fuck sake at least convict the poor bastards in absentia or something. Spread the thinnest patina of following our laws at least.
General Winfield Stuck
@jenniebee: @jenniebee: Nope, You are incorrect. Obama can count votes just fine and you didn’t read the rest of my post, or read it and discounted it. Obama and everyone else under the sun in DC knew that Nelson and certainly Lieberman would not vote for cloture on any bill with a PO, period. Reid stuck his foot in it by divining he could bring them around, especially Lieberman who also stabbed Reid in the back by first signaling he would go along with a compromise Medicare buy in and then changing his mind.
Lieberman is not connected to the DNC, just isn’t, and putting pressure on him is entirely moot, by anyone including Obama. This is why Obama did not draw lines in the sand in public, because he knew he would paint himself into a corner when we got what we have now. No, none, nada government expansion into providing health care insurance. It was always going to be this way, and the only way it would ever have become law was using reconciliation.
Just think now, if Obama had threatened with a veto, any bill without a PO, he would either have to carry out his threat and we would get no bill, or have to eat his promise and look like a weak fool. But some of his alleged supporters are punishing with that moniker, when it actually was political smarts he was exercising.
There is no analysis past these political realities and claiming that the WH was not pushing behind the scenes is equally ludicrous. YOU HAVE TO HAVE 60 FUCKING VOTES to get past the filibuster, unless you use recon. That is a fact that is not really open to navel gazing of who could have done what to whom.
I am sorry if I sound testy in this comment, but months of endless wanking on how Obama didn’t try hard enough makes me that way. It is magical thinking and that is all it is.
Now the Mass election is another issue in itself that stopped the train just before it reached the station though with no PO, and introduced new pol realities that have to be dealt with. Where we are at today.
Corner Stone
@rootless_e:
You’re too fucking ignorant to have had any past lives.
Even a squirrel last time around would’ve understood the point of this.
valdivia
FYI, seems like the Senate IS the problem. Read this via The Plum Line.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
@valdivia:
I don’t know why, but for some reason the image came to mind of a bunch of pasty white dudes wearing pith helmets and standing around drinking tea from gilded porcelain cups and saucers while their native guides/bearers hack at the jungle with machetes, and the ones at the back of the line get eaten by crocodiles.
Folks in the Senate seem to regard the US as a colony.
valdivia
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ:
Hmm. A machete. I have a use for that ;)
MTiffany
Okay, that’s the MAGICAL FUCKING THINKING right there. “The House can pass the Senate’s shit-and-banana sandwich now, and then we can fix everything through reconciliation later.” I call bullshit. “Later” ain’t never gonna come. Democrats are too scared and too cowardly to take another run through the gauntlet again. After all, how many times can they take the Republicans calling them nasty names before it actually kills them? If the Senate bill passes, that’s going to be the end of it.
Sentient Puddle
@MTiffany: OK, so what’s your plan for getting this thing done?
If there’s one thing worse than whiners blaming everyone for not getting a bill passed, it’s the underpants gnomes strategists.
deadrody
Hysterical. Who’s to blame ?
Look in the mirror you fools. All you tools did for the last year was provide as much asinine cover for Obama and the Dems to assemble the biggest, most expensive government expansion in 30 years as you could, without actually fixing anything. The bullshit shrieks of PEOPLE DIE WITHOUT INSURANCE and shit like that. Its all on you.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
@MTiffany:
The thing is, this has actually happened in the past (Congress coming back later to clean up crappy bills). It doesn’t happen in the same Congress, but it does happen. Both Medicare and Social Security went down this road. My favorite example (because from both a policy and a political standpoint it so closely maps onto HCR today), is the regulation of the railroads circa 1903-1906 via first the Elkins Act and then later the Hepburn Act. The first established fairness in pricing (i.e. banned preferential treatment of favored customers in the setting of rail rates) but did nothing to control costs. The second act is the one that put cost controls in place.
So yes, sometimes Congress does come back later to clean up a mess they’ve made. It takes a ton of progressive lobbying and agitation to make it so, but it does happen. If you can make a case that our current Congress is dramatically more corrupt and less subject to popular pressure than the one back in 1903, I’m willing to listen, but that’s a tough case to make.
Chuck
@deadrody:
What part of our healthcare system being three times more expensive and having the worst outcomes is bullshit?
People are going broke and dying, but all you care is “sticking it to the libs”.
Fuck you. I hope government expands enough to crush you under its iron double-hitler heel by treating health care with the same seriousness as police and fire departments. I hope you get cancer that appreciates your rugged individualism.
Anne
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ:
Good example. I have been using the Civil Rights Act as my talking point in this. It was extremely watered down from what activists wanted (and I believe many people on the left were screaming that it was a “sellout”), but it got the ball rolling. The Voting Rights Act came along later and addressed many of the issues that the Civil Rights Act left out.
MTiffany
@Sentient Puddle: There is no plan for “getting this thing done” because we lost. Meaningful reform has been thwarted again. And if the Senate bill passes, there will be no fixes later on. Better to let this piece of shit die than make it law.
MTiffany
@ThatLeftTurnInABQ:
Exactly my point. Medicare was originally – as proposed by Truman – supposed to be open to EVERYONE. If the incremental approach actually worked, we wouldn’t have even heard of “the public option” because we’d have it in the form of Medicare.
That’s why I am so distrustful of the idea that “it’ll be fixed later.” Because every time we’ve gone down that road, the fixes are always more half-measures which don’t actually fix the problem.
Emily
Called the White House six times and was never able to get through, today. Now the office closed. Is it worth asking to be connected directly to the deputy chiefs of staff? Or at least, to an actual person?
Sentient Puddle
@MTiffany: …and if there’s one thing worse than underpants gnomes strategists, it’s defeatists who won’t bother fighting.
mcc
@Emily: If you actually get through to the white hose comment line, you will speak to a volunteer operator who will take your comment, write it down and give it to someone. If there is a different way in the phone system I’m not aware of it.
mcc
…I have chosen to not correct that typo.
anticontrarian
Ok, so this is blatant self-promotion, but I have some meta-type thoughts on why it’s important to get HCR passed that anyone interested can read here.
Thank you in advance for your time and attention.
ruemara
I just called Reid, chewed him out, called my house rep and gave him some kudos for being ok with voting it in and reminded him that 1. The Senate is crazy; 2. The Senate is a bunch of patricians, lazy inept patricians who won’t legislate and he, and the House are the life blood working class guys who have to do the real work. Good staffer, the Reid staffer seemed…resigned and almost every other number is just plain busy.
MTiffany
@Sentient Puddle: And if there’s one thing worse than a self-righteous know-it-all it’s a self-righteous know-it-all that’s incapable of being the least bit respectful of someone with whom they disagree. But then again, why should they? Everyone else is WRONG, so why not insult them? It’s not like a difference of opinion has any place in civilized debate.
And, oh yeah, Obama and the Democrats have been fighting REAL hard to get HCR done right. Whatever.
General Winfield Stuck
@MTiffany: You know, a position of it’s all fucked, might as well not try, it’s pointless, isn’t really an opinion. It’s a bullet in the brain, metaphorically speaking of course.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
@MTiffany:
Would you care to respond to my example of railroad regulation circa 1903-1906? What do you think – is it a good analog to health care reform today, or not? Yes/No/Maybe So?
Or did you just come here to cherry pick other folks comments for things you’ve already made up your mind on?
mclaren
Hey…sounds like a plan!
Time to put a bullet in America’s brain. It’s showing a flatline EEG anyway, so time to end the suffering.
Sleeping Dog
I’m convinced nothing will happen with HCR till after the election, at which point the House will either pass the Senate bill or changes through reconciliation.
If the House goes back to the Repugs, which I think will happen, the losing Dems have nothing to lose and will pass the Senate bill.